All About Change - Saving America’s Lesbian Bars

Episode Date: September 13, 2021

In the late 1980s, there were an estimated 200 lesbian bars across the U.S. Today, there are around 21 remaining. After learning that the rapidly disappearing bars were suffering even more during the pandemic, Award-Winning Filmmaker Erica Rose felt compelled to help her community out. She co-created The Lesbian Bar Project, which resulted in a viral fundraiser and a documentary to “celebrate, support, and preserve” the remaining lesbian bars in the U.S.  Listen to learn more about why lesbian spaces are so important and her mission to save the last remaining bars.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman. Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation, and social justice. and social justice. In the late 1980s, there were an estimated 200 lesbian bars across the United States. Now, there are only 21 remaining. These bars, often the only safe space for lesbians, are disappearing at an alarming rate. The ones that have remained open are also struggling more than ever in the pandemic. Last year, Erica Rose, an award-winning director focused on queer and female-driven storytelling, became concerned about the future of these spaces for her community. She and fellow director Alina Street immediately jumped into action and created the Lesbian Bar Project, which resulted in a viral fundraiser and documentary to celebrate, support, and preserve the remaining lesbian bars in the United States. I'm speaking with Erica. Her films have screened at the New York Film Festival,

the Tribeca Film Festival, and many more. Her film Girl Talk has amassed over 15 million views on YouTube. Lesbian bars have been incredibly important in the filmmaker's journey as a queer woman. When Erica moved to New York City for college in 2009, she said the famous West Village lesbian bar Cubbyhole knew she was gay before she did. Erica, welcome to All Inclusive. Thank you for being our guest today. Thank you for having me. So happy to be here. So I was able to watch the lesbian bar project and I was really impressed by the quality

of the filmmaking. I just want to start off by asking you on a personal level, how did you decide to become a filmmaker? I remember I wanted to be a filmmaker since I was 10. I was raised by two therapists, and they were very, very adamant on introducing me to art and culture and film. And my dad was like, okay, you need to be literate and Scorsese by the time you're 12. So I was like introduced to like Mean Streets and

Taxi Driver and Raging Bull, probably too young of an age, but you know, that's, she's neither here or there. But so I was kind of transfixed by filmmaking. And, you know, there weren't that many women that I knew of that were directors, they were smattering of a couple of examples. But for the majority of my childhood, I didn't really see anyone who looked like me behind the camera. So it wasn't until I got to high school and kind of was doing like self education of like, oh, hey, there's like filmmakers like Mira Nair or Sally Potter or Jane Campion, who are making waves. And they, you know, happen to be women. So from there, I, you know, was just making my own stuff completely self taught. And then I got into NYU film school and worked my way up.

And after I graduated, I had done a lot of, you know, working for other people. And basically when the pandemic hit, I knew that I needed to focus on my directing career. I had pretty much exhausted all of my energy servicing other people's visions, and I figured it was time to service my own. Maybe we can start with the history of lesbian bars. From what I understood, in the 1980s, there were around 200 lesbian bars, and now there are something like 21. How did that happen? It's hard to pinpoint one reason, but we've been able to identify a couple of mitigating factors.

of mitigating factors. So gentrification is affecting our coastal cities, especially, and all, you know, businesses owned and operated by marginalized people are affected by gentrification. So lesbian bars are definitely in the midst of, you know, not being able to afford rising rents and exorbitant taxes and just all around a kind of city that doesn't necessarily have the space for them. And so that's gentrification is like a huge issue. In general, lesbian bars never occupied the same kind of space in real estate that gay bars did. You know, there was a brief period in the 90s in New York where Park Slope was called affectionately Dyke Slope. And it had a kind of like a lesbian epicenter, but that was really, really fleeting.

So besides that, lesbians never really took up neighborhoods in the same way that gay men did. So because of that, our space was already limited. So we were working off of, you know, existing in spaces that were discrete or hard to find or not necessarily completely obvious. So that definitely affects like, you know, how visible and accessible these spaces are. Assimilation plays a huge factor into it. You know, I think that when gay marriage was legalized by the Supreme Court in 2015, I think the most privileged members of our community were kind of swept away with a bit of complacency. You know, I have the immense privilege that I can walk down the street in my neighborhood and go to a bar that's not necessarily LGBTQ and feel safe. And that is because of the incredible work of the

generations before me. But what's lost there is that there's a feeling that if we accept that, if we accept that we don't need specifically queer space, we're essentially saying that space in general can be heteronormative or should be heteronormative. We're essentially saying that space in general can be heteronormative or should be heteronormative. And I'm against that because that doesn't reflect our population. Our population isn't just straight. It isn't just binary. And our bars are not just bars. They're cultural epicenters and spaces for intergenerational dialogue and for queer friendship and obviously dating sometimes. And if we don't have a space that reflects specific groups, then we lose power, we lose validity, we lose just a way of life. So kind of other, kind of other factors. Obviously, the wage gap is real. You know,

there's not a lot of evidence that, you know, especially white gay men have wage discrimination. It's mostly the other members of the LGBTQ community. And obviously, women make less than men. Women of color make less than white women and queer women of color make even less. So that definitely affects the amount of leisure dollars that people have to go out to the bars. A lot of queer women also are parents. So a lot of their disposable income will go to their children rather than going out to a bar. And then finally, I think that overall, we've been moving to an online culture. You know, online dating is definitely prevalent in all of our most of our lives. But beyond that, just like the way we shop, the way we consume food, the way we kind of

consume culture, the way we kind of like navigate serious conversations and kind of meet new people is online in a lot of ways. And, you know, there's pros and cons to that. But I think also what we lose is, you know, brick and mortar spaces in general, not just our lesbian bars, but all brick and mortar spaces are really suffering because of that. spaces are really suffering because of that. So clear from what you said and from the film that the brick and mortar space plays a really important role for the lesbian community. How do you define a lesbian bar and is it different from a gay bar or a queer bar? It's a good question. Lesbian bars are spaces for all marginalized genders within the LGBTQIA community. So that's all queer women, regardless if they're cis or trans, non-binary people and trans men. What makes

lesbian bars different and distinct from gay bars is the prioritization of those genders that I just listed. Gay bars and queer bars in general, you know, are not necessarily prioritizing queer women and their experiences. And what ends up happening is that, you know, when I enter gay bars, for example, it's like, it doesn't necessarily feel like a hundred percent safe space for me. I, I think that there's a lot of, uh, different dynamics and, uh, happening between gay men and queer women. Um, I'm not saying that it's always a divisive relationship, but I think that there's a lot of like kind of misogyny and, um, you know, uh, internalized, uh, homophobia against queer women which is really unfortunate which i've experienced um but one thing that we do say in our film that's really important is that all of our bars

they identify as lesbian bars and so like they'll identify as lesbian bar and queer space because it it's really really important that our lesbian bars open their doors for the most vulnerable members of the community. And the most vulnerable members of the community right now are trans brothers and sisters and non-binary folks. As we can see with the local legislation that's passing, you know, throughout the Midwest and South is that, you know, they are not a protected class. And, and it's unfortunate. And it's something that, you know, I think, as I said earlier, our more privileged members of the community,

you know, don't necessarily have the same kind of energy and motivation to fight for trans rights, because it's like, okay, we got our gay marriage, we could probably, you know, stop, we can like, you know, live rather, you know, safely now. And I think that's really disappointing, because our community has always been built around activism and has been built around political organization. And we need to support each other. And if we don't support our trans community, you know, it does affect all of us. So tell us about the first time you went into a lesbian bar and what that meant to you. So I always like to say that Cubby Hole,

the lesbian bar in Manhattan, knew I was gay before I even did. I walked in in 2009 and I had been questioning. I kind of admitted it to myself years prior, but I had been repressing it. And the minute I walked into Cubbyhole, I was so overtaken by this palpable and tangible energy of queer women. You know, even 2009, like, which isn't that long ago, I felt like there was such a kind of missing contingency of representation for our community. Like, you know, I would watch like Lisa Chaldenko movie

or like the award and kind of like get that. But in terms of my day-to-day life, I had no one. And when I walked into Cubbyhole, it was almost, it was arresting. It was invigorating. It was electrifying that I not only just saw like, obviously like amazing, beautiful women around me, but it was more about like these people who were unapologetically themselves. And there was queer community. about like these people who were unapologetically themselves and there was queer community there was queer friendship which often does not get

represented or talked about enough because for me like lesbian bars are like far more than just like a place to hook up that's actually like really what they're used for it's really for a place to like you know for me to be unapologetically myself and to be gay with my friends. And that is like such a lovely and, um, you know, uh, often overlooked, uh, experience. So when I walked into cubby hole, I knew, um, deep down that the minute I was ready to come out, I would have a safe space to go to. And once I came out, once I started kind of living publicly as a gay woman, I found that, you know, going to lesbian bars in the city, whether it was Henry Hudson, Cubby Hole, Gingers, you know, I had that space to be unapologetically and unabashedly myself.

And I don't necessarily have that privilege everywhere I go. So if hypothetically, Cubbyhole or other lesbian bars in Manhattan or New York did not exist, what do you think your journey of self-acceptance would have looked like or self-acceptance of others in their journeys would have looked like or self-acceptance of, you know, others in their journeys would have looked like? It definitely wouldn't have been as fun. I mean, I got to, I don't know, it's hard to say. I actually often ask myself this question of like, if I didn't go to NYU, if I didn't live in New York, like what my coming out process would be like, um, I can imagine that it would have been a lonelier experience. And I am really grateful

that I had those spaces that I could just talk to all walks of life from, I mean, cubby holes in a very international space. Like when I was there, I would meet people from, you know, um, various countries in Europe. Like I met someone from Tunisia. would meet people from, you know, various countries in Europe. Like I met someone from Tunisia. I met someone from Yemen. And to talk to, you know, someone from Yemen who was a queer woman was, you know, I was thinking to myself, like, this is like truly a melting pot. And that's why these spaces are so important, because I would have not necessarily gotten the opportunity to speak with her. So yeah, I mean, I think that if I didn't have these bars, I wouldn't have given myself the opportunity to figure out who I was. And I think that a lot of

times people, it's a misconception that like you come out once and then you're done. You know, I have to come out almost every day of my life, especially as someone who can like appear straight passing. I think I've done a pretty good job at branding myself as like a queer woman. So there's a little less of that, but I think that these spaces allowed me to kind of not only come out in a way that I was met with community, but to also figure out the nuances of who I am within the LGBTQIA community. And those spaces were instrumental in that. So tell me about when you first learned about the decline in lesbian bars in the United States. And when you learned about that, what compelled you to start the Lesbian Bar Project? So as we all remember, the pandemic hit New York City in March 2020.

And I had nothing but time for the first time in a while to kind of reflect on the importance of gathering, the importance of safe space. And I was on the phone a lot with my friend Alina, and we were just kind of processing the shutdown of our industry, those filmmakers, and just kind of the shutdown of our day-to-day lives. those filmmakers and just kind of the shutdown of our day-to-day lives. And this coincided with a couple of articles coming out about the dearth of lesbian bars in the country, how that there was only, you know, 16 or 15 left. And that really scared me. And it was a wake-up call because I consider myself pretty ingrained in the community, and I didn't even know the numbers were so bad. So Alina and I spoke about it and we were like, okay, let's do something about this.

So she and I kind of like got our heads together and we're like, let's tell the stories of these bars as filmmakers. So we kind of, we teamed up with a couple of producers too and we birthed the Lesbian Bar Project. a couple of producers too, and we birthed the Lesbian Bar Project. In 2020, we set out to do a PSA. And we knew that we wanted it to be also branded because one, brands can pay for it. And as queer artists, like we need funding and two, it would get the kind of exposure that we knew that this project deserved. So we, you know, pitched it to a couple of brands, obviously alcohol brands were an obvious and like symbiotic option. Um, so we pitched to a couple of brands and

Jagermeister made us a wonderful offer and they were just such incredible partners to us, um, and really believed in the project and, you know, support the queer community, not just during Pride, but every day of the year. So we also teamed up with Leah Delaria, who, it was really important to us to have like a voice for the community. And Leah is one of the few like out queer women celebrities who actually still patronize the bars. Like she's a regular at Cubbyhole and she, still patronize the bars. Like she's a regular at Cubby hole and she like, that's like her spot. And so it was like, uh, you know, really, um, an easy choice to go to her and say, Hey, can you like represent the project? And she was like, of course. Um, she like literally we sent her the offer and like 30 seconds later we were on the phone with her. So I have never experienced that

before. Um, so we did, we launched our PSA in October, 2020. We weren't really able to film a lot in person because the pandemic was still raging. So we relied heavily on archival and we released a 92nd PSA and went on to raise over a hundred thousand dollars for the bars. One thing that we always wanted to do was obviously we're filmmakers storytelling driven first, but also we wanted to add a philanthropic element. So that's where the money comes in with the pool fund. And, you know, we raised $117,000 that was split evenly amongst the bars. We knew that we weren't done telling the stories of these bars. And also throughout the

campaign, a couple of bars, we got a couple of emails from the community members saying like, oh, you might've missed this bar and this bar. So we did more research and we had done months of research prior to the release of the PSA. And there's not many studies on our statistics on the amount of lesbian bars in the country. So we were relying on a couple of studies, a couple of articles and a couple of just like anecdotal evidence. But it's really, you know, they're difficult to find. So we discovered a couple more. So this year, when we decided to do the lesbian bar project again, we announced a list of 21 bars. And we always say

it's, you know, an estimated number. There's like, you know, still like new bars opening, there's bars closing, like, you know, it's hard to necessarily pinpoint one number, but 21 is the closest we've gotten. And earlier this year, in June, we released a 20 minute documentary. And this time, like, you know, we introduced the world to this staggering statistic that there were like, you know, a few lesbian bars left in the country. And now we wanted to tell the human stories behind these bars. So our film is through the lens of the bar owners, community activists, patrons and archivists. And they tell the stories of not just, you know, the bars themselves, but how it affects our lesbian culture. And I think that, you know, if there are few bars left in the country,

it begs the question, do we still need them? And what is the future for queer women? So, you know, corporate investment sometimes gets a bad name, but it sounds like Jägermeister was really a good partner and came in with the best of intentions and really allowed you to get this moving forward, the project moving forward. I also wanted to just, you know, when Leah Delaria from the fame of Orange is the New Black came in, do you really think that that gave your project a boost and a lot more recognition? Definitely. I mean, Leah is such an icon and she has an immense following, not just from Orange, but just from her body of work for the past decades. So it gave us

even more credibility, which was really important to us because we wanted to, you know, cement ourselves in the zeitgeist. And I think we were really successful in that because there are many, many people who I've met who are like, oh, I've heard of your project. I've heard about the dwindling number of Levesonian bars. And I think a year ago, that wasn't the case. So I think we succeeded in that. And Leah is a wonderful champion of these bars, and she has a big following. To your point about Jägermeister, yeah, there's, you know, obviously, rainbow capitalism is at play with the kind of relationship between corporations and the queer community. And I think it's, some people are very transparent in how they, you know, kind of exploit the queer community. And I think it's, some people are very transparent in

how they, you know, kind of exploit the queer community for their own financial gain. I think Jagermeister differentiated themselves because, you know, they gave us money and supported us in October, in September and October of last year, they could have easily said like, oh, we'll wait for like pride, you know, month, but they, you know, they had also launched something called hashtag save the night, which was an initiative to help all nightlife institutions and venues that were disproportionately affected by the pandemic. So they did a lot of great work helping spaces, you know, stay afloat during the pandemic. And that was really attractive to us because we were like, okay, they're, you know, actually doing the

work to support the community that, you know, and I think that a lot of queer people work in nightlife, a lot of nightlife people are queer. And I think that it just felt like a really good relationship. So they're incredibly supportive. They, you know, help fund our 20 minute film. And they're, you know, big advocates and are some of the reason why we got, you know, so much press as well. So you mentioned in the film about recent generations not being aware of the struggle and sacrifice that went into places like Cubby Hole? And can you tell me a little bit about the activists who actually laid the groundwork so that these spaces could exist? Yeah, so there's, you know, people like Stormy DeLavare, who was arguably the first person who threw a punch at Stonewall. And Lisa Canastrossi,

the owner of Henrietta Hudson, talks about her with such reverence. They were friends. They, Stormé, worked at the kind of original cubbyhole, which is confusing. The original cubbyhole is where Henrietta Hudson is now. And then they moved to deeper into the West Village. So Stormé worked there and worked, you know, was one of the bouncers there. And, you know, was an incredible force and someone who kind of like broke gender norms from, you know, during a time that that was like, you know, there wasn't even language for that. You know you know, and then we, we talked to so many people who were like on the front lines of, um, the movements, whether it was in the seventies or, you know, the nineties, which we kind of saw a resurgence of like the lesbian chic

movement. Um, you know, one thing to note is that, uh had a divisive history. I think that a lot of there's a lot of cases where these bars were discriminatory against, you know, women of color. And the owner, Aline Ravindoli, was revolutionary in the sense that she was able to own and operate a bar in the 1970s as a single woman. Women weren't even allowed, as a lot of us know, weren't even allowed to get a line of credit without the approval of their husbands or fathers, let alone a liquor license. So there was something incredibly you know, incredibly, you know, admirable about what she did. On the other hand, her bar had a race-based quota and they would allow like two or three black women into their doors. And, you know, during brunch service on a Sunday, black women were served different food than their white counterparts. So in response to that, you, you know, uh, folks like Audrey Lord,

uh, were part of the organizing founding members of the Salsa Soul Sisters, which is the first black and Latina lesbian organization in the country. So we felt it was really important to talk about them in our film because that is part of lesbian bar culture. Um, and they weren't able to necessarily occupy space in the same way that white women were in terms of traditional bar settings but the spaces where they were able to occupy served the same purpose that the lesbian bars brick and mortar spaces did so we spoke to a lot of members of uh the salsa soul sisters um and then we, like some folks that we didn't get to include in the film, like for example, Leslie Cohen, who opened Sahara, was one of the founding members of

Sahara, a kind of pivotal bar in the 1970s in New York. And she talked a lot about how the bars were often mob run and she wasn't able to get a liquor license and she wasn't even able to sign a lease. And she was an unmarried woman and she married a woman and she had to. she speaks about how ridiculous this is, but like the only, like the closest like male relative she had was her brother who was unfortunately at the time institutionalized. So he was able to sign on her behalf, but if you look at it in the vacuum, it's completely ridiculous that she wasn't able to sign on her own behalf for a liquor license for a lease when you know she was like able to function whether and her brother was sick so you know we talked to her and she was Sahara had to close um four years into its lifespan and she was part of the movement to kind of start the queer party scene so um yeah I

mean those were kind of um a couple there's so many more people I'm leaving out. But, you know, there's just so many different aspects of the community that I like that we don't even have time to talk about, which is unfortunate. Well, I know that that one of the bars that is featured in the Lesbian Bar Project is a bar called Hers in Mobile, Alabama, two african-american women which is fairly unique because you make the point in the film that there are almost no bars except for that one um and maybe another one that that is run by black or brown women um can you talk a little bit about that and and i mean to own a bar in mobile, Alabama, where there's so much, you know, homophobia, that must be a difficult business to run. But maybe you could talk a little bit about that. So when we met Rachel and Sheila Smallman, the owners of hers, it was like love at first sight. They have such a effervescent energy. And they are just wonderful, wonderful

human beings. And we're obsessed with them. And they're obsessed with us. And it's like a mutual love that's really exciting. But when we first started talking to them, it was really interesting to us. We knew we needed to go down to Mobile because of what you're saying, because they are the only lesbian bar on our list that is owned and operated by Black women. And one thing that they talk about is that they started the bar as a reaction to feeling discriminated, not just by heterosexual people, but by gay men in the South as well. And I think that in the South and in spaces that are not coastal cities in the United States, these bars are really melting pots for the entire community because there is such a lack of safety in many of the spaces. I talk about how in Brooklyn, New York, I could walk down

the street into a bar and hold my girlfriend's hand and feel okay. But that's not necessarily true of space in the South or the Midwest. I think that one thing that was important, though, is that Mobile, Alabama is a really dynamic and nuanced city. There's, I kind of, my expectations were definitely different than what I experienced. Granted, I was surrounded by queer people because we were following a lesbian bar in Mobile. But I think that there's definitely a really loud and active vocal contingency of people who are accepting, who are not just, you know, queer people, but are allies who are trying to make change and difference there. So I think that it's not monolithic. And that's really important. But yeah, I mean, Rachel and Sheila, you know, are defying a lot of odds by opening

that space. I mean, hers is an electric space. Everyone there is greeted with a hug. Sheila walks people to their cars to ensure safety. The staff is incredibly welcoming. It really is like a home away from home. And that was what we wanted to capture when we were filming. It's a space where the community can gather and be themselves where they might not necessarily be able to in their day-to-day lives. So, Erica, can you talk a little bit about your own personal activism in the LBGTQ community? And maybe how do you believe that younger generations can or will become more involved? Yeah, so I think that there's definitely a generational gap. There's kind of an older guard that talks about, you know, which we point out in

our film that like, you know, younger generations don't know what we went through. And that's something that it's important for us to listen and to educate ourselves as younger people about really what older queer people went through in order to have the rights that we do today. On the flip side of that, I think that, and you know, once again, this is not, this is more anecdotal than anything, but I think that there's a kind of sometimes a resentment from older generations about the nuances in language, the nuances in gender expression and identity that has emerged in the past 10 years. And I think that older generations can learn something from us, too, and learn something that we don't have to be so militant in our definition of, for example, lesbianism. I make the point throughout my life that, yes, I identify as lesbian, I identify as gay, I identify as queer. But I think that many people can use that label of lesbian, and it

doesn't mean that it's just a cis woman who's only attracted to other cis women i think that there's more um room for different kinds of people to use that label and that's beautiful um i think that you know one thing we tracked in our film is this disparity between kind of like an older guard of like what it means to be a gay person and have like queer space versus what our current generation means. You know, Henrietta Hudson changed their logo after 30 years. And it was more of like a femme presenting person. And then it changed to, you know, someone that's something that is gender inclusive. And there was backlash. I mean, Henrietta Hudson got backlash on Instagram. We

got backlash for including them in our campaign. Henrietta Hudson started identifying as a queer human bar built by lesbians. And for us, that still met our definition of a lesbian bar. And I think that there were certain people who felt really, really disappointed and felt betrayed because they felt that the women-only spaces were disappearing and that one of the few institutions that still kind of identified as a woman-centered space was now using gender-inclusive labels and logos. And Lisa Kanesashi, the owner of Henrietta Hudson, had the best response I've ever heard to that complaint. She said, you thought 10, 20, 30 years ago that you were in women-only space, a gay women-only space, but you were wrong. There were trans men there. There were

non-binary people there. They were bisexual and pansexual people there. Those people have always been part of the lesbian community. And now we have the language to include them and we have the language to make them feel seen and not make them feel isolated. And I, you know, as I said earlier, it's, I think that we can do better than our gay male counterparts. We can do better than kind of the more privileged members of the community, where we can open our doors to many different kinds of people. And I think that it's a responsibility and a wonderful gift that, you know, lesbian bars can give to the community.

So let's talk a little bit about allyship. And do you feel it's important to have non-queer allies in the effort to save these bars in general? That's a really good question. And I think that one thing that we just need to talk about in general is that most of these bars survive because of allyship. You know, as I stated before, there's, you know, the wage cap is absolutely devastating. And most of these bars rely on allies and straight people to come to their bars and spend money. I think that it's, you know, they can't, especially lesbian bars can't survive alone on just queer populations patronizing their spaces. I do, however, think that there's a way to support lesbian bars and to support gay bars and queer spaces without, you know, overtaking the space. So for example, a lot of gay bars have

banned straight bachelor parties, because it's, I find that like completely inappropriate. It's like, you're going to like kind of like flaunt your heteronormativity in a space that has like fought to kind of like counteract that. And I think that it's really important that when you are a straight ally, when you come into a space that's, you know, not made for you, you're a guest, and you have to be deferential to the people that are prioritized in that space. So for example, it's not like, I think that a way to support it, it's like spend your money there, buy drinks, you know, hang out with your queer friends, you know, maybe don't throw a bachelorette party at a gay space. If you're a straight person, maybe don't like kind of like invite like a bunch of straight people

into that space and kind of like occupy and take up room that would have, you know, so that means that queer people can't access it. And, you know, one thing is like, be really mindful of not harassing queer women. You know, there's unfortunately a lot of cases where straight men will come into lesbian spaces and like harass and sexualize us. And, you know, at the end of the day, that's like a bigger systemic issue that a lot of straight men feel that queer women's sexuality is for them and made for them as a presentation to them. And that's completely untrue. And we exist as people outside of their gaze. I think that it's, you know, I'm not advocating for, you know, exclusionary practices in any regard. I think that there's no like check at the door of like, who are you?

Like, you can't be here. I'm actually like, you know, pretty against spaces like, you know, how like the wing used to operate that that was like women only. Like, I'm pretty against that. Like, I don't think that there should be mandates at the door about like which genders are allowed into the space um i do think however that if you know you're as a straight ally if you know you're walking into a queer women's space that you need to realize that and that you're not the priority priority there So during the making of the film, what surprised you the most that you learned about lesbian bars? And maybe you could give us a favorite story from the bars that you visited.

You know, one of the things that surprised me actually was a bar from the past, Meow Mix, that we cover in the film briefly. And it was around in the 90s in the Lower East Side. And obviously, I knew that queer bars and queer establishments had a really complicated and often turbulent relationship with the police. But one thing that was interesting talking to Brooke Webster, who was the owner of Meow Mix, is that Giuliani's administration was actually kind of their biggest foe in terms of their own kind of survival. Basically, there was mandates and there was laws and legislation that was passed to be predatorial to marginalized business know, marginalized business owners

and that service marginalized people. So like there'd be like code violations that were like completely insane that would essentially enact a shutdown. So one thing that she had to navigate, there was like kind of this kind of whisper network of people who were in nightlife spaces.

That'd be like, Oh, someone from the mayor's office is here. Like, you know, do X, Y, Z. So, uh, what they would essentially do is the mayor's office would, uh, make, give so many fines to certain bars that they had to shut their doors. And I thought that that was something that like, you know, Giuliani talks, talked a lot about his like cleanup efforts and his cleanup efforts were you know in a lot of ways just like completely try to erase you know marginalized people whether they are people of color or queer people or women-centric spaces so that was like really interesting to learn um obviously I knew his administration was um completely unfavorable and completely um violent towards a lot of marginalized people.

But to kind of learn the specifics of how they kind of shut down these spaces was interesting. And then I think learning about, you know, as we talked about earlier, just like truly how egregiously racist some of these bars could be. I think I obviously knew that, you know, there was racism in their spaces, but to learn specifically that there were race-based quotas at the door, um, to me was really disturbing and something that we need to start talking about as a community. Um, and I think that there's still like, you know, numerous reparations to be done in order to make a queer woman of color

feel safe in lesbian bars and feel welcome in lesbian bars. Our goal for the future of the Lesbian Bar Project is to tell more of the stories of these bars and kind of go outside of the parameters we set in the 20-minute film. And a lot of the bars we've talked to, you know, just like throughout the process, um, have like the owners have like amazing stories. Like Audrey Corley, the owner of Boycott Bar in Phoenix talks about how she bought her first bar for $3 and has this insane story of how she was able to do that. And, you know, I think that these, like, we're really excited to kind of continue the project to, um, you know, tell more of these stories behind the bars. So let's talk a little bit about how people, I know, I know that the Lesbian Bar Project is

available to view for free. Maybe you could talk about how people can access that. And also, you know, I know you did a fundraiser and it was successful, are you continuing to, to raise funds to, to help these bars? So people can watch the film for free going to lesbianbarproject.com. Um, it's also on the Jagermeister YouTube page, global YouTube page. Um, and it's 20 minutes and, uh, feel free to watch and enjoy. Um, people can also follow along the project on our Instagram, which is at Lesbian Bar Project. We did another fundraising campaign this past Pride. We are also announcing on tomorrow a new partnership with the dating app Hinge. So they are raising awareness and giving funds to the

lesbian bar project, which is really exciting that we'll go to the pool fund for the bars, um, making a contribution. Um, so basically we, after our partnership with them, um, and in the, uh, around labor day, we're going to announce our total number of raise, but it is, we were able to raise over $100,000 again for the bars, which is really exciting. So our grand total for, you know, the money we raised during the pandemic will be over $200,000, which is incredible. And we're really excited about that. We'll be announcing specific numbers, um, uh, around Labor Day. And, um, in terms of like more fundraising, um, I think the goal right now is to get people to go to the bars. Um, that's always been a goal of mine and Alina's is to say like, Hey, please go to the bars. Like, you know,

you can give money to us, but like the most important thing is support our bars show up for your bars. We literally say that at the end of the film and we're actively working on, um, you know, turning this into an episodic docu-series. So that's our priority right now. So I know one of the goals is to, to help these bars that exist to continue to survive. Do you feel that your project will lead to more bars opening across the country? Yes, we're actually already seeing that. We followed Joe McDaniel, Rage Pike, who are opening As You Are Bar. It was really important to us to follow a new space that's opening because often how we talk about lesbian bars is through loss, disappearance, and trauma. And it was really

important to us to show like, hey, here's a new lesbian and queer space that's opening that is, you know, filled with optimism and filled with excitement. And we're getting so many messages from people around the country, opening new lesbian bars. There's a spot in Astoria that's trying to open right now called Dave's. There's a spot in LA called Hot Donna's that's trying to open. now called Dave's. There's a spot in LA called Hot Donna's that's trying to open. And so we're really excited. And I think that there's going to be a lot more in our future.

And I can't wait to go to those spaces and to witness them. And maybe you could talk about what you learned about yourself through this whole journey of making the film. I know there were very many emotional moments i i saw an interview you did on pbs news hour in in which people were you know writing back um comments that were you know making you extremely emotional so maybe you can talk

about like like what the whole whole project did for you personally. I love this question. I, no one has actually ever asked me this question. I think that it did so much. I mean, it made me feel whole again. It made me feel a purpose. And I'm just so excited that I can you know showcase this story like as a filmmaker my goal was always to tell stories that are overlooked or forgotten or unseen and I think that Alina and

I set out to tell the stories of these bars and it's just really really exciting that we're getting so much positive feedback and that people you you know, are learning something, but also feel celebrated. And I think that it's so like, as I said earlier, a lot of times we talk about like gay experience as that of trauma. And I think it's really, really important to show the beauty and the passion and the optimism and the excitement that's within us. And I think that was really important to do that, especially as this pandemic keeps raging on. Yeah, I mean, I think that we have stories like, you know, Blush and Blue in Denver, they told us and they went on a couple of interviews and said this that they weren't

wouldn't have been able to survive without us and I'm like oh my god like I didn't even set out to like you know we didn't set out to like save any bars like we knew that we didn't necessarily have the tools to do that but the fact that we were able to keep these doors open for at least a couple more months to me just feels like a an honor of a lifetime. So I'm really excited to keep on pushing through for the community. And I'm really excited to see what the future holds for us. Well, thank you so much. I just want to leave with telling our audience different things that they can do to support what you're doing. You know, we said, you know, go and watch and I've watched it

and, and I would recommend anyone to watch it because I think it's, it's a very well done piece of film with a strong message, the Lesbian Bar Project. Anything else that people can do if they want to, to get involved and, and, you know, contribute and, and, and help lesbian bars to continue in the United States? Go to our website. There's a map of the United States and we show where every lesbian bar is located. Show up for your bars. Our pool fund is closed and thank you for everyone who donated this year. But for now, what folks can do, watch our film film support us on social media and show up for your bars erica it's been such a pleasure speaking to you i think your activism has been extremely impactful and will continue to be impactful and really appreciate having you as my guest today

thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful. Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org slash allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet at Jay Ruderman.