All About Change - Season 3, Episode 10: President of Harvard, Lawrence Bacow

Episode Date: August 17, 2020

On the new episode, Jay has special guest, Lawrence Bacow, the President of Harvard University! Join Jay and Lawrence as they talk about COVID 19, mental health, and how Harvard is handling issues surrounding racial injustice!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Harvard University is one of the most prestigious and well-known universities in the world. Universities and educational systems are now facing significant challenges as a result of a worldwide pandemic and calls to address systematic racial injustice in our society. Today I'm honored to be joined by Harvard's 29th president, Dr. Lawrence Bacow, to find out how he is addressing these challenges and how his personal history has shaped his outlook on life. All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman. Welcome, President of Harvard University, Lawrence Bacow. I hope you're well, and thank you for

joining us on All Inclusive. Thanks for the invitation. Let me just jump right in and ask you that how has Harvard reacted to the coronavirus pandemic and how will Harvard and other universities, in your opinion, move forward in supporting their students and faculty during this unique period in time? You know, we've been focused on the coronavirus since it first broke out in China in early January. We have lots of students who come from China. We have faculty who do work in China. So we were attentive to what was going on there because we were concerned, as with any new virus,

that there was a potential for people to travel there and bring it back to our campus. We're also blessed at Harvard to have some of the foremost experts in the world on epidemiology, on virology, on public health. And so from the very beginning, they were advising us in terms of what was going on. We had the opportunity in mid to late January to enter into a partnership with the Guangzhou Institute for Respiratory Health. This is a world-renowned Chinese research organization, and they wanted to know whether or

not we would be willing to collaborate, which we agreed to do so. We started collaborating with them very early on and created something called the Massachusetts Consortium on Pathogen Readiness, which engages all of Harvard's schools, our affiliated teaching hospitals, but also our colleagues at MIT, at BU, at Tufts, at the University of Massachusetts Medical Center. And as a result, Harvard has really become the center for research on the coronavirus worldwide. The first two vaccines that have gone into human trials have come out of Harvard. So we're quite proud of that. So Harvard's been deeply involved wearing our scholarly hat. And I would say that

this is a time in which the nation's research universities more broadly have never been more important. Because if we're going to find a solution to this pandemic, it's going to come out of scholarship and research. And we were, I think, the second university in the country to send students home. This is after the University of Washington. You know, we did so prompted by the timing of our spring break. We were criticized at the time for acting prematurely. In retrospect, it looks like it was certainly the right decision. So now we're focused on plans for the fall. As you ask, you know, what are we going to do like many other institutions? A number of our professional schools have already made announcements, and we're trying to prioritize public health and safety.

The events of the last several weeks have demonstrated to us that we must be modest in our ability to predict and control this virus. First, I want to thank you and all of Harvard for working towards a vaccine, because I think a vaccine will allow all of us to resume a normal life. And I'm sure this is a very trying time to lead a major university in terms of scheduling and trying to figure out how the future looks when the future looks so uncertain. I know that you and your wife came down with COVID a few months back, and I hope you're better and that she's better and that was the experience. I'm sure it was not a great experience for those of us who have not contracted it. Can you give us a few words of what that experience

was like? Sure. We were among the very first, actually, to get it in the Harvard community, as luck would have it. We were quite fortunate. For us, we managed to avoid the severe respiratory problems that landed so many people in the hospital. And I would say, for the two of us, that landed so many people in the hospital. And I would say for the two of us, it was like having a bad case of the flu. We were sick for about 10 days with 102, 103 fever, cough. I had severe muscle aches.

Adele avoided that. We both had chills and extreme lethargy. And after the fever broke and after about 10 days, we started feeling much better. Although it took us another good 10 days to regain our strength. It took a lot out of us. I'm glad you're better. As a Massachusetts resident, I know that things are getting a little bit better here. The state has been very strict in rolling out the recovery plan. And other places in the world and in the United States are having a much more difficult time. Just wondering, you know, Massachusetts has lost approximately 8,000 people and other countries have kept the

death rate much lower. Any feelings about, you know, why that happened, you know, here in the Northeast, as opposed to, let's say, a country like Israel that has had less than 400 deaths with a similar population size? Yeah, I think that the United States, collectively, we were slow to recognize this threat. We were even slower to act on it. I think, candidly, we received mixed signals from our government in terms of how seriously to take this. We continue to receive mixed signals from the government in terms of people maintaining social distancing, wearing masks. And I think all of this has contributed to a spread of the virus and unfortunately to a large number,

not just a large number of cases, but a larger number of fatalities than perhaps might've been the case if we had acted faster, more decisively and without the kind of mixed messages that continue to be sent. You'd mentioned that many students at Harvard are learning online. And I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about the future of education and higher education and education in general. Do you think classroom learning is necessary? Or do you think that the future for students will be online learning? So I think that online learning is here to stay. I don't

think it's going to go away. I think it will only get better over time. We're still learning how to teach online in ways that capitalize on the opportunities that are made available through online education. But I also think that there are certain subjects that are really hard to teach online. And that, again, this experience of having students be separated from their teachers and vice versa, and students separated from each other, has been one of the reasons that students are so desperate to get back. And why we want them back is we've all come to appreciate that some activities just can't be replicated completely or fully online. I often say that our students learn as much from each other as they'll learn from us. And I think if you or I

or any of your listeners were to reflect on their own college experiences, for those who are fortunate enough to go to college, and ask themselves the following question, if you think about what's the most amazing experience you had in college, for most of us, it's not actually something that happened in the classroom. It's something that happened outside of a classroom. It may have been a casual conversation with a faculty member that wound up changing our lives. That was certainly the case for me. It may have been a conversation that occurred late at night, after students had finished their studying, or it may have occurred on a playing field or a student activity or whatever. So I could go on about this. I do

think online education will evolve. I think it will get better, but I don't think it will ever truly replace in-person, face-to-face education for many, many people. I'm sure you've done some studying about the future of sports at the university. I mean, college sports is a big part of the college experience. And I know at Harvard, you know, there's some excellent teams. So I don't know what that looks like going into the coming academic year. We're not quite certain either. I will just tell you that it's, you know, at the moment certain, it's difficult to imagine with restrictions that the government has imposed already on travel, on large gatherings, that we could have intercollegiate sports that, you know,

that will look anything like what they would look in a normal year. You know, in an athletic context, it's difficult to imagine how certain sports can take place at all. Wrestling, for example. But until people can really travel and travel freely and not worry about infecting those that they encounter, it's also hard to imagine that athletic teams would travel to play other teams as well. I'm sure it's going to be a very different year going forward in that aspect. Our society has, since the murder of George Floyd, has dealt with an explosion of calls against racial injustice. How has the university dealt with racial injustice at the university and in you know, in society in general?

What changes do you think will be made going forward? You know, I think over the years we've done a lot at Harvard, but it's clear, as is true, I think for every institution in our society, we need to do more. This is just not where we want to be as a society, and it's certainly not where Harvard wants to be. But, you know, this is a time in which I think we need to act, but we also need to listen. There are many people who are suffering right now and suffering greatly. And those of us who have not shared their lived experience need to take the time to really listen and listen carefully and understand in a deep way what they have gone through and what they continue to experience. And then we need to look inward, both as individuals and as institutions, and ask ourselves, what could we do in order to respond? At Harvard, we've done a

number of things some time ago. We set up a task force on diversity and inclusion and belonging several years ago that reported, and as a result of that, we've done strategic plans for every school at Harvard on what it can do to make Harvard a more diverse and inclusive and welcoming place for everyone. We recently appointed a new chief diversity and inclusion officer. A year ago, I asked the dean of the Radcliffe Institute, Tomiko Brown-Nagin, who is both a constitutional law scholar and a historian, to lead an effort to examine Harvard's ties and legacy with slavery and ask ourselves, what are our responsibilities as a result of the institution that was founded in 1636? It's certainly the case that we've had individuals who've donated to the university who had ties to slavery. Our individual schools,

I think, changed the world through our teaching and through our scholarship. That's how we influence the world. And so we're looking at our curriculum, we're looking at our research and asking where are there opportunities to do more. And we've also tried to ask ourselves, how can we do a better job educating every member of our community to not just cleanse themselves of any implicit bias, which they may have, but also what can we do affirmatively when we recognize racism, when we see it in our society, in our communities, how can we act affirmatively, positively to counteract it? You're listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more. View the show notes and transcripts

at rudermanfoundation.org slash all inclusive. Please remember to subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you are listening. There have been several recent changes to the immigration laws, and these changes will affect your students and faculty. For the upcoming class, international students make up 12% of those accepted. How do you see these changes impacting Harvard and the lives of international students? And how will this impact your faculty? Well, first of all, you know, this is an issue which I feel quite strongly about it. Both of my parents were immigrants. They were both refugees to this country. And I often say, where else in the world can you go literally in one generation from off the boat with nothing to be a strong voice in support of the notion that we should continue to welcome people who want to come to this country to seek a better life,

to seek freedom, to seek opportunity, which is, I think, deeply rooted in the American experience. The issue is not just the 12 or 13 percent of our undergraduates who come from abroad. If you take a look at our graduate and professional schools, the number of international students enrolled is much higher in many of them. The Kennedy School, for example, 48% of their students come from abroad. Right now, the United States is not processing F1 or student visas for new students

seeking to come to this country. That's because in many cases, our consular offices and our embassies are closed because of COVID and one of the reasons why so many of our graduate and professional schools will be online in the fall is because international students will not be able to study at Harvard otherwise simply because they cannot get here. Long term Harvard tries to recruit the very best students and the very best faculty and the very best staff from wherever we can find them. 35% of Harvard's faculty were born someplace else. And so if we are to continue to recruit

the very best people in the world to come work and study at Harvard, then it's imperative that they be able to gain access to Harvard. And this is true not just for our institution, it's true for every college and university in the country. Every major university in this country, both public and private at this point, has welcomed international students. And it's one of the reasons that I think has strengthened these institutions. And ultimately, it's also strengthened the country because many of these young people, when they finish their education, they want to stay here and work here. Are you getting through your discussions with the government and correspondence, are you getting any type of response that they understand the dramatic effect this will have on higher education and research? It's certainly the

case that they do with respect to granting of student visas more broadly. I think things are a little bit more complicated when it comes to H1B1 visas, which we use to recruit faculty and also industry uses to recruit people from abroad for jobs that they feel that they cannot fill domestically. And this is particularly acute in the STEM fields, where 50% of the PhDs awarded in engineering and mathematics in the United States are awarded to foreign students. And many of these foreign students would like to stick around, and our industry would like to hire them as well, simply because they cannot fill many of these jobs without them. And I've been assured by those in government that they recognize the F-1 visa problem. They want to try and expedite the awarding of those visas. The challenge which our government faces is that as long as the coronavirus continues to be a threat in many parts of the world, it's

difficult for them to staff the council offices sufficiently in order to be able to process these visas. But they're looking to solve this problem. I want to talk a little bit about mental health. Mental health is a growing issue in our society, maybe even more compounded by COVID-19. It sounds like Harvard's been more proactive in dealing with the issue of stigma on campus in order to allow people to feel more comfortable. What is Harvard doing to help students who are dealing with issues concerning mental health? You know, we try and provide a healthy environment for all of our students. Every college and university in the United States, I think, has seen an explosion in the demand for mental health services. There are plenty of students who have always had the ability to make it to college.

Unfortunately, what happens to many of them once they get to our campuses is they no longer have their mothers and fathers there to say, have you taken your meds today? They get exposed to other kinds of influences, which are not necessarily healthy for them, whether or not it's alcohol or recreational drugs. And so it's an emotionally sort of fragile population, at least more so than it was perhaps 30, 40, 50 years ago. So we've tried to staff up. Given the particular stresses right now that come from the coronavirus, we've extended the allowed number of visits under our student health insurance plan to 52 outpatient visits a year. So basically, you can see a therapist once a week on our plan. We've added staff. Under the current circumstances, we're also doing a lot of telehealth, so mental health consults remotely because students are removed from their therapist at this point.

And we've tried to de-stigmatize asking for help as well. And that also, I think, accounts for some increase. What were the factors that influenced your decision to pursue a career in academia and in administration of higher education? Jay, you know, for most of us, I think our careers are often a series of fortuitous accidents, and mine is no different. When I went to college, I thought I was going to be a lawyer. And long story short, when I enrolled in graduate school at Harvard, I started out at the Kennedy School in a master's program in public policy my first year, and then went to Harvard Law

School the next year. And it was only in doing that that I realized I was enjoying what I was doing at the Kennedy School more than law school. I completed a PhD at the Kennedy School, as well as my law degree, and I expected to go to Washington, D.C. to work in the start of the Carter administration. And as luck would have it, I had an opportunity to fill in for a faculty member at MIT who was going on leave for two years. And when I was trying to decide whether or not to go to D.C. or go back to MIT and teach for a couple of years, I went to one of my undergraduate advisors who said, you know, the government will be there when you're ready to go

work for it. It will always look good on your resume to have spent a couple of years teaching at MIT. So I did that and two years turned into a 24-year career at MIT. So I did not set out to be an academic. It sort of just happened. And then the president of MIT asked me if I would come into the senior administration as one of MIT's two most senior academic officers as chancellor of MIT. MIT had been very, very good to me. And so, you know, the president asked. I said, yes. I mean, it was a chance to serve. You know, if you have the number two job at a place like MIT,

you get called for every presidential search in the country. I didn't think I wanted to be a president. In a moment of weakness, I agreed to have a conversation with the search committee at Tufts. So the rest is history. I wound up becoming president of Tufts. I had a wonderful 10 years as president of Tufts. So the rest is history. I wound up becoming president of Tufts. I had a wonderful 10 years as president of Tufts, stepped down expecting just to go back to doing some teaching and some writing. And then seven years later, I found myself as president of Harvard.

So life happens. So you've had the unique opportunity to have leadership positions at three excellent universities and very different institutions. Can you talk about maybe a significant memory that you might have from each of them that sort of guided you through your career? They are each very, very special places in my own mind and my own heart. So I really grew up at MIT. It's where I really learned how to think analytically, where I was challenged in ways that I never thought imaginable, and where a couple faculty members really took me under their wing and changed my life. They saw that I was capable of doing things that I didn't think I was capable

of myself. I also made some lifelong friends who are my best friends today. And then, of course, I had the opportunity to go back and teach at MIT and work there and become part of the fabric of the place. MIT is an unusual place because of its focus. As we used to say at MIT, we don't do everything at MIT, but what we do, we try to do as well as anybody in the world. I then came to Harvard for graduate school. And Harvard and MIT, even though they're two stops away on the red line, are about as different as two institutions could possibly be. I sometimes joke when I ask about the similarities and differences, I will say that organizationally

and culturally, they're identical with a sign change, meaning they're exact opposite. MIT is very centralized, Harvard's very decentralized, MIT is focused, Harvard's very broad. As different as they are organizationally and culturally, these are two of the greatest universities in the world. And that to me says that excellence is path independent of organization and culture. And I see that now as president of Harvard. This is an extraordinary place. What makes it so is that it's extraordinary in so

many different dimensions. What also makes it so is its history. I'd like to point out that Harvard, on the day the Declaration of Independence was signed, was 140 years old. To put that in context, that's older than Stanford is today. So this is an institution which literally helped to bring this country into being. George Washington commandeered the building

during the Revolutionary War to quarter his troops. It just gives you a sense. John Adams, when he was a student, John Quincy Adams, when he was a student at Harvard, lived in the building where my office is and where students continue to live today on the fourth floor. So Harvard just steeped in history. And then there's Tufts. Tufts was founded by the Universalists, and they were passionately committed to social justice. And it's a place where service is deeply, deeply embedded in the DNA and the fabric of the institution. What I loved about Tufts is that it's an exceedingly modest institution. And it's a place that is warm and embracing. It doesn't have an attitude of any kind.

It attracts students, faculty, and staff who just want to make the world a better place. Tufts educates more primary care physicians than all three of the other medical schools in Massachusetts combined. And Tufts hosts the only vet school in New England. So it's a pretty unique and special place. So all three special. Don't ask me to say which one I like the most. It's like asking a parent, which one of your

children do you love the most? Of course. You touched on your parents and that they were both victims of persecution and came to the United States. How has that shaped your life and your world outlook? Look, we're all children of our own circumstances. I think my parents' experience affected me greatly. My mother didn't talk a lot about her experience when I was growing up initially. She was the only member of her family to survive World War II

and the only Jew from her town who survived it as well. She was liberated by the Russians. She was in Auschwitz when the war ended. She spent most of the war in Theresienstadt before being transported east. I think her circumstances and her journey and my father's, and again, my father left before the war, but to escape the pogroms of Eastern Europe. He was born in Minsk, have left me with a deep appreciation for both the resilience of the human spirit, but also for how lucky and fortunate I have been. And I think that has given me a sense of responsibility to ensure that other students have the same kind of opportunity that

I've enjoyed, that so many of us have enjoyed, and that we cannot take for granted. You know, one of the reasons why I've spent as much time as I have in Washington, D.C., lobbying Congress on issues of immigration and issues of DACA and issues of temporarily protected status for many workers that we have at Harvard is because I remember my mother telling the story

about how difficult it was for her after having been liberated from the concentration camps to then just manage to secure entry into the United States. I'd like to think that there are other people who are also seeking a better life, who have much to contribute to this country, as I think my parents did. I'm not talking about contributing me, but just what they did in their own lifetimes. And so I work on behalf of all of those people. One of the many things which I love about this country is that it has always stood for opportunity. And so part of the reason I do what I do is because it gives me a chance to champion

opportunity for others, whether or not it's helping to identify the resources that allow a brilliant student from anywhere in this country or in the world to be able to come to Harvard regardless of the ability of their parents to afford it. That's one kind of opportunity. Or arguing on behalf of our dining workers who originally came from places in this world which do not grant human rights and were granted temporary protected status to enter this country. And now they've made their home here. They're productively employed here. They're contributors to society.

They pay their taxes. And now they risk being sent back to a country that they don't know anymore. And in some cases, at great risk to themselves if they were to return home because we're going to potentially withdraw that status. So that's why I do what I do. And I do it in part because of my parents. Well, thank you for sharing that. I just wanted, on a personal level, I know that you're an avid runner. Where does that passion come from and what do you get out of running?

Well, so one of the occupational hazards of being a university president is an expanding waistline. You know, I sometimes joke that my real title is not university president, but university stomach. I eat in service to Harvard. At least that was the case before, you know, COVID-19 sent us all to our homes. But, you know, my days used to consist of breakfast, lunch, and dinner meetings. And then if I would show up at a faculty meeting for a department, they'd always have a big plate of cookies. So running, you know, in part I run because it allows me to eat. It allows me to control my weight. But I also run because given my life, my days are scheduled from the moment I wake up and I start doing email until the time I close my eyes and hit the pillow.

It seems I'm almost always working. And running is one of the few opportunities I get to be alone with my thoughts. It's when I do my best thinking. It is when I solve really hard problems and sort them out. It's when I'm on a long run. It's when I compose my speeches, when, you know, I write important communications to the community. So that's what I get out of running. I also, you know, from time to time run with students and others. And I find that's a healthy way to to time run with students and others. And I find

that's a healthy way to have a conversation with people in which after a while, they stop looking at me like I'm the university president, just become another sweaty runner. And I hear things that I wouldn't hear otherwise. And for somebody who travels as much as I used to travel, this is the longest I think I've ever gone in my professional life without listening to somebody say to me, put your seat back and tray table in the upright position. But given how much time I spend on the road, it's a great way to see cities. And I've run in every major city of the world. You know, we're going through very momentous times, huge challenges on many different fronts. What one piece of advice would you give to a student, regardless of the year, but, you know, coming into the fall semester of 2020, what advice would you

impart? I would say to them that every generation gets challenged in one way or another. And the crises that we are dealing with in this moment in time are the challenge for their generation, and they need to be part of the solution. They need to think hard about what they can do to respond. So we'll have, you know, students back on campus in the fall. It will be a different experience. One of the things which I will say to them is this experience is going to be shaped by what you make of it. If you take responsibility to wear your mask, wash your hands, to engage in social distancing, you are going to help keep this virus under control and to keep not only

yourself healthy, but everybody around you healthy. You have the capacity to do that. We expect that from you. I'll say to them with respect to the moral crisis that we're dealing with right now, that you referenced the issue of the search for racial justice. It's in their hands to be better understanding of the inequities that exist in our society, to listen and understand the lived experience of others better than those who've come before them. And I will challenge them to do that as well. So I think each generation is challenged. Each generation, I think, has often found a way to rise to this challenge. And I would say to them, I hope that they will embrace this and try and rise to the occasion as well. One of the things which keeps me optimistic is always being around young people.

Young people have hope, I think, for good reason. And when you see their hope combined with their idealism and their desire to repair the world, it can't help but make you feel optimistic about the future. Larry, I want to thank you for your time. You've been very generous. I wish you a lot of good health moving forward and a lot of success in what I know is a very challenging time for all of us. Thank you very much, Jay. It's been a pleasure to have this conversation with you.

I hope you and your family also stay safe and healthy. Thank you. help you and your family also stay safe and healthy. Thank you. All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org slash allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast?

Be sure to tweet at Jay Ruderman. Thank you.