All About Change - Tiahna Pantovich - Military Veteran, Therapist, and Activist

Episode Date: July 5, 2022

**TRIGGER WARNING. This episode contains conversations about sexual violence, sexual assault, and abuse. If you are triggered or would like to talk to a confidential advocate, please call the National Sexual Assault Hotline: [phone]*** Tiahna Pantovich joined the US Army after her senior year in high school to become an Arabic Cryptologic Linguist. But, after being sexually assaulted off base, she experienced a systematic failure of the army managing cases like hers. While still in the army, Tiahna would become an advocate for sexual assault survivors and work closely with the Pentagon's Inspector General to investigate the conditions at Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, TX, and Fort Hood Army Base in Killeen, TX. Tiahna eventually left the army and went back to school, where she would support minority student veterans as chapter President of Student Veterans of America at Howard University.  Join us for a special episode of All About Change marking Independence Day, as Tiahna shares how her personal story led her to become a therapist and social worker, advocacy for veterans, and how her time in the army inspired service.  Please find a transcription of this episode here. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

whether it be for sexual assault in my case, whether it be for online bullying in other cases, whether it be hazing in other cases, but getting our troops to speak up and not kill themselves seems to be something we're failing at. And that's just a fact. Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman and welcome to All About Change, a podcast showcasing individuals who leverage the hardships that have been thrown at them to better other people's lives. This is all wrong. I say put mental health first because if you don't... This generation of Americans has already had enough.

I stand before you not as an expert, but as a concerned citizen. In each episode, we bring you in-depth and intimate conversations about activism, courage, and change. It was an awful night. I was very young, and I was 20, and I'm very grateful I was in the Army, and at the same time, very sad that I was in the Army, and this occurred to me. And today on our show, Tiana Pantovich, military veteran, therapist, social worker, and activist. If your soldier's coming to tell you that they've been sexually assaulted, they need to be able to tell you. And you need to give them a hug, not a, well, why did you not? Oh, geez. You need to be that support. Tiana joined the U.S. Army after her senior year in high school to become an Arabic cryptologic linguist. But after a traumatic sexual assault,

she experienced a systematic failure of the army managing cases like hers. Don't bring this drama over here. We don't want none of this. Tiana fought the reprisal and became an advocate for sexual assault survivors. While still serving, she worked closely with the Pentagon's inspector general to investigate the conditions at Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, Texas, and Fort Hood Army Base in Killeen, Texas. We really need to be better at this. What are we going to do as a civilized military to stop this? Tiana Pantovich, welcome to All About Change. It's my pleasure to have you as our guest today. Thank you.

You grew up in D.C. Tell us about your childhood. So I grew up in the D.C. suburbs. I was the child of a single mother of four. I had a stressful childhood, but I was a smart kid back then, too. I was brilliant as a kid and just in bad circumstances. What were the bad circumstances growing up and what caused you to join the United States military at such a young age? I was very poor. Like that's just as simple as it gets. I just grew up poor with negative net worth. And I knew the military had benefits for a lifetime. I understood that at 18. And after 18 years of struggle, I was really willing to struggle just a little bit more for the benefits on the other side, whether that meant a decade, two decades,

whatever the case may be. I was willing to do the work in the military to get a lifetime of benefits on the other side. And it was really worth it, even though it was rather hard. It was rather difficult and not what I expected when I joined. So talk to us about going into the recruiter's office. Did you imagine what life would be like being a soldier and what type of response did they give you once you walked in there? I had walked into the recruiter's office one day. I was with a boyfriend at the time who was not very smart, but I was young, influenced by hormones and following a very handsome boyfriend around. And he got a 7 out of 100 on the ASVAB and I got a 92. And he wasn't allowed to join, but I was a very good recruit per se.

What is an ASVAB? The ASVAB, it's the aptitude test for the military. Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery is what it stands for, ASVAB. It's a test that millions of recruits have to take. There's a certain threshold to be able to enter the military. The highest you can get is 99 because it's a percentile. So you've scored higher than 92% of all people who've taken this test. And I had quite a few jobs available to me.

Unfortunately, because my boyfriend couldn't get in, I walked out and did not necessarily have intentions to go back. Then I made some unwise decisions with college deadlines and had no funds to make the deposits, although I had gotten into good schools in the area. I had no dollars to make that college dream happen. And so I ended up one day getting dress coded out of the school and it was summertime, but now I'm 18. I walk in, I tell them I wanted to be a 6C Juliet, which is a lab tech. And I had this plan. They said, what about a linguist? Do you know any other languages? And I was like, well, I learned Spanish in high school and I'm pretty good at it. I ended up taking the language aptitude test, which is very similar to the ASVAB.

It's just the defense language aptitude battery. It's called the D-Lab. And I scored very high on it. I got a 110 and that was decided. I was going to be an Arabic cryptolinguist. I had no say in it. Just sign the contract and you'll be off after you graduate. And we'll weigh $15,000 in front of you. And that sounded really good when I was really poor. And I joined. And then I shipped off right after high school. So $15,000 up front. After I learned my language, not just for signing, I had to learn my language and then get my $15,000. But you didn't know Arabic at this time. They believe that you had the aptitude to learn Arabic. Correct. What comes first, boot camp or your specialty in learning what you're

brought into the army to do? Actually, every soldier goes through this path. It's your boot camp and then your specialty. And everyone has a specialty. Is it as grueling as people say? Yeah. And I was hungry the whole time. I just was not necessarily used to the output of calories and being in such a deficit of calories every single day.

The crawling in the mud and the letting soldiers climb across my back to get across bridges, it really felt like that. And I changed. If I would have had a piece of candy and split it in half, as the big sister, I thought I was entitled to the bigger piece. Now I'll split it in two ways and give it to my two hungry friends. And I would do that without a thought and go hungry for the rest of the evening. And now I'm, I will literally let a stranger stay on my couch if needed. I'm just a different person though. Did you enter boot camp with any type of physical shape? They do prepare you as a high school student. I was required to go into what they called delayed entry program depth. I felt like Rambo that summer in North Carolina,

torrential winds. It felt torrential in the mountains of Appalachia. You'd get such severe downpours and we'd just go running in it as like a team of young people willing and ready to go. And we'd sing the, you know, the marches and we were all going to different branches in the recruiting station. Some of them went off to different branches and I still know them. Some of them went off to the army with me and we remained friends for many years. So you go to Monterey and you're learning to be a cryptolinguist. What is a cryptolinguist? A cryptolinguist translates top secret intelligence. How long was the process? How long did it take you to become proficient in Arabic and to be able to do that job?

It's actually a really grueling process because it's only 15 months and you have to be completely able to translate very complex military instructions and discussions and things like that. And it was just 15 months of complete Arabic, eight hours a day. And then you go work out. And now, you know, I still know my Arabic. I've talked to Arabic speaking folks on the street throughout my days if I interact with them in D.C., which I do. And did you love your job there at Monterey? Monterey was a fascinating experience. I was raised by a lot of the people there. I still remember some of my scoldings, and I'm really grateful for them.

What's an example of a scolding that you got from your fellow soldiers? We were guarding the barracks, and this was the time where females were being allowed into combat units and combat positions and special forces. And my chunky, can't-pass-weight, little PFC-having person, that person who I was, who I'm not anymore, said that she did not believe that females belonged in those units. And I got chewed out by a very strong female who then ended up becoming airborne, having an excellent career out of Fort Bragg. She embodies Army excellence. And she chewed me out right there. She just screamed at me as I deserved. I always remember that. And I have carried on that light, that torch per se. I remember actually, I was talking with someone who I respect very much, who's an artillery soldier and was beginning to say that they did

not believe it made sense at the time for females. And I knew where they were going. And I immediately cut it off. And I said, well, it's time we finally put aside that belief that all females are frail and small, because there are many females who are strong and agile and very capable. I may have passed that correction on and maybe that person hurt me. And now that spirit is still being carried on in 2022. And did you see this as your career? I did believe I was going to be a career soldier probably until about 60 days before I left the military in 2017. Can you tell us what happened?

So while I was at Monterey, I was sexually assaulted off the base and it was a traumatic event for me. It was an awful night. I was very young and I was 20 and I'm very grateful I was in the army and at the same time, very sad that I was in the army and this occurred to me. The first thing I did when I was able to get out of the house was go to my roommate and tell my roommate how awful it was. And I'll always remember my roommate and say, Pantovich, that is rape. And we're just looking at each other and we're both knowing what that means, basically. We're just sitting with weight in that room. And I'm very grateful she walked with me to report. She stayed with me for the first long, long hours of my 14-hour stay in the hospital. And she had plans, and she still put aside the plans and did support me. But then

there became fallout. Like, I remember walking in almost as if I was a pariah. It just, it felt weird. Like I felt like I was an omen, like a bad spirit. Like it just felt very odd when I came back into the barracks after the hospital scene. And were you feeling this from fellow soldiers, from superior officers? Well, people's eyes speak. And, you know, also I'm dealing with trauma at the same time. I'm 20 dealing with something that was just awful. I just knew the gravity of what was about to occur. I just felt the weight on myself and looking from side to side. I felt the daggers looking at me. And that's really what it was. And I went in my barracks and I just was, I ate like chocolate lava cakes. I was allowed the Monday off.

But then on Tuesday, I went back to work. And I was supposed to somehow, you know, have my uniform looking nice and standing in the formation. Like I still physically hurt. Like I was still physically sore from the formation. I still physically hurt. I was still physically sore from the event, and I had to stand in the formation and be straight-faced. I'm sure that was so incredibly difficult. As a former assistant district attorney who covered the domestic violence unit for many years, I'm so sorry for what you went through. Thanks. I appreciate your support. It means a lot. Was the perpetrator also a member of the military?

The perpetrator was not. Was a member of the local college, but not the local military. What disturbed me the most of the whole occurrence was the perpetrator made the joke that he had rich parents and thus he would be fine. He verbalized that as I kind of grappled in a heap. And I'm not sure if I necessarily was the last person he would be able to do that to because later on after I left and the case continued, the case got dropped and I became entangled with a whistleblower reprisal case, which was insane. Took me so much away from going after the real perpetrator, the predator in society, whom I really could have put all my efforts at ensuring this did not happen again. But the army messed up.

The incident happened in the summer and I was gone by October. But the following base, the leaders there almost were like, in multiple perspectives, don't bring this drama over here. We don't want none of this. Just terrible, just awful. But then it became reprisal. It became more than just, we really don't want to touch this. It became a type of retaliation to force not only myself, but there was a pattern and it was a systemic problem. And now here I am,

a systemic problem. And now here I am, still 20 years old, with a unit that is mishandling multiple people's cases or a small county in California mishandling my personal case. Now, the self-righteous 30-year-old would have loved to be able to say that I was able to push through both of them. But the reality is I was 20. I was reading thousands of regulations and my army case went all the way up to the Pentagon because there were multiple females involved, multiple people who were experiencing this. I had to put all my efforts into the inspector general case for whistleblower reprisal on Goodfellow Air Force Base. And I'm very grateful that I did because I did win that case. And I am positive that the people who were retaliating

against sexual assault survivors will never be able to retaliate against sexual assault survivors again. I can confidently say that. That's great. And we did a previous podcast with Ilsa Connect about rape kits and how many rape kits sit on the shelves. Thousands and thousands sit on shelves in state after state and police just do not pick them up and prosecute. So it sounds like you may have fallen into that category. Correct. I remember the call. I was in Texas and unfortunately, due to it having been two years, which I couldn't believe it was two years, they were going to close the case. But such is life. You can't win them all. And I know it just sounds not superhero-esque to say that.

But sometimes you have to remind yourself. Now I'm a well-educated psychologist and can say that at 20 years old, I did not have the capacity as a human being to take a case to the Pentagon and take the case to the Monterey County. The capacity wasn't there. And that's fine because I'm stronger now. I've grown from both experiences and I'm an advocate for others to report. I'm even grateful that at 20 years old, I was wise enough to report it because at the very least, I can't be sure he's not going to do it again. But I pray that the next person would report. And now we have a pattern and we can do something with that. When you show up on base, you've gone to the hospital, you've had the rape kit done.

You report to a superior. Are you reporting to a female? Is there someone who is sympathetic? I have no clue. I have no clue who I told first. I have no recollection of what was said in those moments. I have a recollection days later after I went back to class, like I said, that Tuesday. That week, I'm in the office of an inspector, and I'm going through questions that I can't even believe are stamped in my brain, but are. What were you wearing that night? And I

remember giving a look to him. I couldn't believe that he had said that. However, as a psychologist at that time, I was so necessarily vulnerable, having just survived a very traumatic event, that any subtle indication of blame on me due to my outfit is going to be perceived as that. And I told him I was wearing a long sleeve sweater, ankle length leggings and shoes with ties on it. eyes on it. Coincidentally, when all of this occurred, I still was in possession of all of my clothes. They were just torn. And it was just this moment of he writes a note, but doesn't hear. He doesn't hear what I said. It just was like a note and then moves on. It was just so robotic. And why did you go there if you had bad feelings about him? I mean, I'm a normal person and now I have bad feelings about a rapist, but I didn't necessarily feel that he was a rapist before I went to his house because then I probably wouldn't have gone to the house of a rapist. Actually, I definitely wouldn't have gone to the house of a person I would have known was a rapist. It was just these weird insinuations of,

I know this now, so why didn't you know this prior to the incident? Sounds like blaming the victim. Oh, absolutely. It sounds like you're talking about a systematic culture in the army of not feeling comfortable and not wanting to deal with this. And you're getting blamed for coming forward and talking about something that happened to you, which is serious. And the army is not handling it appropriately. I know there's been changes since I've been in, but there hasn't been enough changes. Because Vanessa Gillen was bludgeoned to death on Fort Hood Army Base a couple years after I left it. This is a systemic

thing. This is a cultural thing. And we need to do better as a civilized military. We really need to be better at this. What are we going to do to stop this? Do you think that after Vanessa's killing and the investigation and there were many senior officers who were relieved of command and reprimanded, do you think that since then has the culture changed in the armed services? I think it's too soon to say that because that only recently happened. Those officers were only recently relieved. We need to see a half decade and a decade of research after to see the numbers go down. And we need to continue. I'm not advocating for a Stalin-esque type removal of all head generals who are deemed immoral or whatever. I'm advocating for getting

the leaders who aren't giving their soldiers a space to speak up for themselves, whether it be for sexual assault in my case, whether it be for online bullying in other cases, whether it be hazing in other cases. But getting our troops to speak up and not kill themselves seems to be something we're failing at. And that's just a fact. Do you think you were moved from Monterey because you reported the rape? Yes, I was. Where did you go from Monterey? From Monterey, I went to Goodfellow Air Force Base, where things hit a catastrophic low. I started having psychosocial symptoms and actual physiological

responses to the chaotic amount of stress I was having. I was having immense shin splints. My legs were in so much pain. They were so swollen. Also, a common indicator of stress is poor circulation. And I was probably the most stressed out I've ever been in my life. I've never wanted to strangle myself more than every single day at work there. Living life there was so hard because I was so ostracized. So is this it for you in the military or is there one more step? No. I go on to Fort Hood Army Base. I'm doing some rehabilitation at Fort Hood, also doing some work with the inspector general, some work at three corps. And I'm in school now. I'm actually turning things around. The tides are turning. Goodfellow was so awful and the tides did start to turn at Fort Hood

in a way in which I found a stride and a purpose. There was so much to change and so much to do at Fort Hood. I had goals just left and right, and I was achieving them. The response to the Inspector General report, I still have, and I'm very grateful for it. When it became declassified, I was able to get a copy, and I still have it. I'm very proud of it. I'm looking at my certificate of retirement from the U.S. Army in 2017. I'm very proud of that. And so I'm proud of what I did, but I thought I was going to be G.I. Jane for 20 years. And I had to grapple with the fact that G.I. Jane was not going to happen. And so I tried to kill myself in 2017. And then I tried to kill myself again in 2018. And then I decided to enroll in help. And I got help for four years. And now

I'm thriving. But it was tumultuous. That's for sure. Again, I'm so sorry that you've gone through this. And I'm sure it was a very low point in your life. And yet, it sounds like you're still proud that you had the military experience. Of course. And still I thrive. And I always will thrive. And I have done more service after service, is what I would call my experience, the best way to put it. Service after service. I have done so many volunteer events. I've joined so many organizations. I have worked on Capitol Hill in the House Veteran Affairs Committee as a legislative intern, working on legislation for toxic exposure. I'm working on legislation for spouses, working on legislation for sexual assault survivors, working on legislation for education

equity. The veteran community is benefiting on the flip side as I'm doing really good stuff for veterans, even though my time in was a tumultuous four years for me. But I'm wiser on this side. I'm a well-educated psychologist. I just finished my fourth degree at the illustrious Howard University. And I'm a therapist for those who experience substance use disorder or post-traumatic stress disorder, many of which are veterans. And saving lives on that end is awesome, too. So I may not be a medal of honor running across a field in Afghanistan to go recover my fallen comrade. But I am still saving veterans from death by getting their calls and texts when they're on their last leg. When I need to do a buddy check for a veteran, they know that they can reach out to me.

And if we're at that point, we'll have an ambulance at your house. And I know if there are a few who are listening, they have used me as a buddy check. They've been at the end of their road and they've said, Tiana, I just don't think I can do this anymore. And Tiana says, let's talk about it. And then on the flip end, I'm getting somebody on the line to do a buddy check for them because I also don't play with suicide. I've lost comrades to suicide and I don't

play. Thank you for what you've done to help probably countless individuals. I'm sure the traumatic experience is still with you and that you've learned to make that part of your life and still to find the good in life. Yes. Because I have to relive it. I have to relive it when I'm listening to some of my own clients who have survived this and they're telling me their story. A lot of people will be so deep and dark in that tunnel, they cannot believe that there's ever possibly going to be a light at the end of the tunnel. If I could ask you, when you were going through those really dark times, how did you turn things around? To be honest and real and raw,

I had to fail my suicide attempts. And I really felt I couldn't do one more minute. And then you wake up after the suicide attempt, whether it be in the hospital, whether it be in your own bed, whatever it be, and you set a goal. And I set these goals. Three degrees was a goal. Building a van conversion and traveling across the country was a goal. And I did it. I just did it. I lived in a van for six months and went to 42 states. And that was a goal. And that got me through those six months. And then I needed to graduate from Michigan. And that was a goal. And I got through that. And then I needed to graduate from Howard. And that was a goal. And now I need to do my next internship, which is another goal. And I have to buy this house and decorate this house. And that's a goal. And I'm building a rooftop deck. And that's a goal. And those keep me alive.

If you have a message for the Army at this point, if you could talk to leadership, what would you say needs to be done so that this doesn't continue to happen? You need to get your shit together by fostering an environment in which your soldiers can have open communication with every piece of their chain of command. Starts at the squad leader, and then it's the platoon sergeant, and then it's the first sergeant, and then it's the commander, and all of those people. Not one of those people can be a weak link in the communication. All of those people need to have an open communication line and not the bullshit open door policy that applied when I was in the army because army had an open door policy when I was in. And we know how that worked out. So let's be real. You need to

be willing as the very conservative Baptist squad leader to your soldier who's 19. If your soldier is coming to tell you that they've been sexually assaulted, they need to be able to tell you and you need to give them a hug, not a, well, why did you, not a, oh, geez. You need to be that support. That's great advice. You have done so much in a young life to support so many people. How do you do it all? That's my purpose.

I need that to live. Well, you're doing a great job. And we're lucky to have you. And it's been such a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you. I'm very excited to help others through their trauma. And if there's anyone that needs me in any way, they're able to reach out to me. I'm very there. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. There really, really is. Other people who are going through trauma right now may not feel like their heart can heal after the trauma, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Wise words. And thank you, Tiana. We really appreciated you being our guest on All About Change. So thank you so much. Thank you. All About Change is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. The show is produced by Yochai Meytal, Jackie Schwartz, Matt Lippman, and Mijan Zulu. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to come back in two weeks for another inspiring story.

In the meantime, we still have all our previous content live on our feed and linked on our new website, allaboutchangepodcast.com. Lastly, if you enjoy our show, please help us spread the word. Tell a friend or family member or consider writing a review on your favorite podcasting app. You'd be surprised how much that helps in exposing new listeners to the show. I'm Jay Ruderman, and I'll catch you the next time on All About Change.