All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg - E104: FTX collapse with Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong + election results, macro update & more

Starting point is 00:00:00 Sacks the United States is maybe not going to send weapons to Ukraine indefinitely and they're asking them to sit down and negotiate something that people on the left Started to do and got a got smashed for something you've been pushing for so I guess mini victory lap for you sacks What what's the end game here? Well, yeah? I mean, I've been talking common sense about this for months just saying that we need to be open to diplomacy because total defeat for Russia also means a maximum risk of nuclear war. I mean, these things go hand in hand. That's the paradox of this war, is that if Russia faces the prospect of a total defeat, that's when they're most likely to escalate this conflict into something much, much worse. So therefore, we need to be open to diplomacy.

Starting point is 00:00:40 But it was good to hear administration officials over the past week say things that I've been saying for months and that I've been accused of being like a Putin sympathizer for. So apparently there's a bunch of Putin sympathizers in the administration. And just to read you some of these remarks, actually I want to play like a fun game with you guys instead of just, oh really? Yeah, it's just mentioning these quotes. I want to play a game called Millie or Sax.

Starting point is 00:01:06 So I want you guys to guess whether it was General Millie who said the quote or whether I said the quote. Okay. Does that sound like a fair game? Yes, fair game. Let's put some game show music here. Millie or Sax? I'm going to read you like four or five quotes

Starting point is 00:01:22 and you guys are going to say whether it was Millie or Sax who said it. First quote, who said it first quote who said it general millie or sax one of the lessons That should have been learned from world war one is that European powers refused to negotiate compounded the human suffering and led to millions more dead Millie or sax sax. I'm going sax. I'm going sax. It's a very historic millie said No, next one next one go go go. Okay a regional war turned into the first world war because all parties made Maximus demands and assumed others were bluffing it can happen again That millie or sax because of bluffing you said bluffing that bluffing is a word that you would use all right That was sax that was sax maximalist yes, okay?

Starting point is 00:02:01 I would never say maximalist. Yes, he would never say bluffing. Yeah, go ahead. There's an opportunity to negotiate when peace can be achieved. Seize it. Millie or sax? Millie, it's very pithy. It's pithy like Millie. All right, that was Millie. Yes.

Starting point is 00:02:14 All right, I'm two and one. Two and one. I'm two for one. It's deeply irresponsible not to try for diplomacy when the state is so high. Sax, that's an emotional statement. I go mille. They were sacks. Oh, sacks.

Starting point is 00:02:27 Damn it. Two and two, three and one for sure. There has to be a mutual recognition that military victory is probably in the true sense of the word. It may not be achievable through military means, and therefore you need to turn to other means. Oh, that's mille. It's a word salad.

Starting point is 00:02:40 I go mille word salad. Hold on, hold on. It's a mille word salad. It's too convoluted for sacks. Sacks. I go milly word salad. Hold on, hold on. It's a milly word salad. It's too convoluted for sacks. Sacks. I go milly, I go milly. I think it's milly. That's milly.

Starting point is 00:02:50 Yeah. It's word salad milly. That's it, I caught up. Now I'm three and two tied with chamaf. Last one. Last one, okay. It must be our objective now to help achieve a ceasefire and negotiate a piece rather than protract the conflict.

Starting point is 00:03:03 Mm, wow, it's so formal. Millie, so formal. It feels like somebody said that on the steps of like a building outside. It's very formal. To well-spoken, it's crisp. Can we hear it one more time? May we hear it one more time? It must be our objective now to help achieve a ceasefire and negotiated peace rather than

Starting point is 00:03:23 protract the conflict. Millie, it's a little too formal for a podcast, but in a tweet, it wouldn't be. So it could be a sex tweet, but I'm thinking, so podcast, I got to go millie, I got to go millie. Saks. No, god damn it, damn it. You can't tell Millie from Saks is what we've learned. What a great game.

Starting point is 00:03:44 Right now we're going. What a great game. Right now we're gonna play the next game. This is called Bernie Madoff or SBF. Bernie Madoff or SBF. All right, everybody. Welcome to the all in pod with us again, the dictator in a beautiful herpals sweater sweater Karen. Man, it's the fall season season so I need to notice the inside the inside of this is Swade. Oh very nice very nice so multiple animals killed. I think you're pleasure. God wait. Yeah. God it. All right. What animal do they kill to make Swade? Is that like a type of leather or what is that?

Starting point is 00:04:39 I hope it's an endangered one. Actually that version of Swway that he's wearing is from a white rhino. So they just take the hide and they throw everything else away. Oh my God, so horrible. So horrible. God, can we take this out of the show? These are ivory buttons.

Starting point is 00:04:59 The ivory buttons. Oh no, no, you're mad. I think it's baby seal fur around the couch. He's sealed, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no did to your Jeppelow ticket. Wait, you don't want to talk about Jeppelow Mint? Why? Are you embarrassed to fly commercial? What did you eat? Ah! Are you embarrassed to fly J.Kell? Yeah, I told you.

Starting point is 00:05:33 When I admit, I don't call it like I'm the president. I'm like, hold on, Mint coming through. I then I start spreading out. I think J.Kell class is like the seat by the bathroom. In the back. Do you think you save 150 bucks each way? What is is Jeb Blument the name of like Jeb Blument is their first class coast to coast.

Starting point is 00:05:53 It is so delightful. What is that Jeb Blument? They just have figured out a way to make like sleeper seats, you know, that are very nice. Oh that's great. And it's upgraded service where they put like a little wall between you and everybody else. It's kind of like having a private plane if you didn't. And Saks is here, the whole cruise here basically. We'll have a surprise, Bestie Guesty jumping in

Starting point is 00:06:15 in the middle of this. I'm not going to tell you who. Because nothing's going on this week. Nothing is going on this week. I mean, there's so much to talk about. Let's just start with the elections. And then we have to start with my mayor, Copa. Usually this is like throwing red meat to sacks, but I mean, at this point, all right.

Starting point is 00:06:29 So DeSantis won by double digits in Florida. He got a huge amount of the vote, but all the Trump high profile Trump back candidates seem to have lost. Dr. Oz, Dan Cox, just it was a shalacking, I guess, or the red wave became like a puddle or like an eyedropper or something. But some of the Trump back candidates did win some of the Peter Teele collection, JD Vance one. So I guess that's a big win for Sad. That was in a Trump candidate though, because if you remember when Trump went to stump for

Starting point is 00:06:59 JD Vance, he forgot his name. I got this name wrong. So, so anybody that Trump on your side, you don't need friends. Anybody that Trump actually cared about turned out to be just a complete dud and lost. And everybody that kind of had to keep him somewhat around just so that he didn't throw bombs actually did decently. But I mean, Trump is just a weight on the neck of the Republican party and it's time to just get rid of them Sacks what happened to your red wave? Yeah, listen, I got this wrong

Starting point is 00:07:33 I think there's a few reasons for it So I think when you get an election wrong you have to admit it and figure out what you've what your mistake was Otherwise, you're not gonna improve. I mean number one. I was looking at, you know, the RCP polling, the real clear politics where they take an average of all the different polls. They were adding a factor to it. They were showing, by the way, plus three or plus four in the Senate for Republicans, but they were adding a factor to it based on the underweighting that the pollsters did in the last election cycle.

Starting point is 00:08:01 And it turns out that the pollsters, I think, did a pretty decent job correcting their polls. And so the RCP overweight turned out to be just basically completely wrong. The other thing that I got wrong was I was just looking at the fundamentals. I mean, three quarters of Americans think we're on the wrong track and we're in a recession. So based on that, you would think that this would be a great year

Starting point is 00:08:21 for Republicans. And in fact, the out of power party usually wins in a midterm and Biden's popularity is at historic lows, at like 41, 42%. So everything was teed up for the Republicans. So what went wrong? I think a couple of things. Number one, two days before the election,

Starting point is 00:08:40 Trump basically comes out and pre-analysis that he's running. And this basically plays into the narrative that Biden has already created, that this is a, this is not a referendum on Biden. It's a referendum on democracy. And basically, Trump made it into a choice election. Who do you like better, Biden or Trump? And the fact of the matter is, if you look at the exit polling, as unpopular as Biden is, Trump is even more unpopular.

Starting point is 00:09:04 So that did absolutely nothing to help the Republicans and I think it really hurt them at the margins. The other thing that turned out, I think the other big thing that helped Democrats was dobs. And I never thought that it wouldn't be a factor. But if you looked at the polling before the election, 15% of likely voters said that it was their number one issue. If you looked at exit polling, after the election, it was 28%. So, Dobbs turned out to be twice as significant as what the early polling was showing. And if you remember Jason, go back to the episode we did on abortion. I said the shrewd play for Republicans here was the Roberts compromise.

Starting point is 00:09:38 What did Roberts want to do? He basically was going to allow the 15 week restriction on abortion, but not have the headline of Rowe Wade overturned. And that basically is what DeSantis implemented in Florida. He basically restricted abortion after 15 weeks. It's the purple state compromise. It's where I think the purple states and where most of the country is going to end up. And the sooner Republicans get their heads wrapped around that fact that better they're going to be long term

Starting point is 00:10:05 yes you want question there sacks yeah who stacked the supreme court deliberately to turn over roe v. wind listen i mean there this was a long term priority of republican policy that's that's another question jack out well no we do have to recognize that trump said he would do that he did it so this is doubly trump's fault Every party nominates justices that align with their values. And it cycles. Yeah, but Trump said he's going. Trump said he would specifically do it in order to know what the president doesn't choose who dies in the Supreme Court and when. Yeah, right. There are more. Yeah, it's also more complicated than that because what this job's decision did is

Starting point is 00:10:40 throw the issue back to the states. And the fact of the matter is that now it's up to each of these states to determine where they are going to come out in this issue. If you look at, there were ballot initiatives in red states like Kansas and like Kentucky. That's right. That's what I'm saying. Is there are pro-life ballot initiatives in red states that lost? You can see all over the country that the Republicans try to go too far, or they do try to go too far when they try to impose a total ban.

Starting point is 00:11:10 But it seems to be popular is this what I'm saying is the purple state compromise. It's what DeSantis did in Florida. It seems like most of the country, we talked about this on that episode. Most of the country is in the messy middle. They want abortion to be safe, legal, rare, and early. They're willing to support it in say the first 15 weeks, but then after that, there needs to be some restrictions that I'm saying most of the country supports that. Now, it's also the case that Democrats, though, are sticking out a pretty extreme

Starting point is 00:11:40 position too, because most of the Democrats were taking the position that abortion should be legal up into the ninth month, which is not even, that's more radical than even row. Row said that you can restrict it after 23 weeks. So you know what we said on that podcast Jason was the party that gets the middle first on this issue as the one that's going to do well. Not just this issue. Yeah, and I think, yes, I think it's true on this and I think it's true on other things.

Starting point is 00:12:03 So look, I think theans can correct your pretty easily if they listen to folks like de santis and young kin and kemp uh... people who understand that they have to is a compromise here and the ones who basically insist on pushing a total ban are gonna go down and flames there's a couple of things i think that are worth

Starting point is 00:12:24 looking at now that we have all the exit polling and the results. The Democrats strategy of helping to promote these extremist magacandidates in the primaries turned out to be a huge winning strategy because every single one that they helped put up against the Democrat, the Democrats won. that they helped put up against the Democrat, the Democrats won. But number two, so what that shows is the extreme right cannot field a winning candidate. But on the other side, all of these extreme left-leaning Democrats also did not do very well either. And so you're back to David what you said, which is we have been saying for a while, the

Starting point is 00:13:03 winning strategy is that messy middle. It's the moderate person that kind of like tax to the center. And this is what you see everywhere around the country, all of the ballot initiatives, every time you had an extremist ballot initiative, whether it was a complete ban on abortion in a red state or whether it was tax the rich policy in a blue state, they failed. And so I think the message that you have to take away is the extreme left doesn't work. The extreme right doesn't work. If you look at, for example, like Kathy Hoko almost lost in New York State because of who?

Starting point is 00:13:39 Because of like AOC and all of that extreme is progressive rank and file of that party. So people need to really understand and look at the data on the ground. If you want to win in 24, you got to be in the middle and you got to clean up all of this extremist rhetoric. Freeberg? Any thoughts? I think the Georgia Senate runoff race that we had in the 2020 election cost the US $10 trillion. And I think it, because if you'll remember, that was the race that when the Democrats won, tipped the power in Senate to the Democrats and all this legislation for the last two years

Starting point is 00:14:14 was passed, including a lot of the fiscal stimulus and spending that very likely may have faced significantly more opposition than could have been faced where the Democrats had the White House and the Senate and the House. And so that single seat and the loss of that seat in the runoff to the Democrat Party, I think, ended up allowing a lot of loose behavior over the last two years that's going to cost this country for a very long time. And in part, perhaps we can argue a lot of the inflationary pressure and now the debt load, the US debt load increasing by $10 trillion in the last two years since that election,

Starting point is 00:14:54 by the way. And so I think one of the most important things that perhaps people don't cognizantly recognize but feel in some way is that having a balance of power is really important in this country. And so to some degree, while there may be issues that folks can argue about, disagree about, and there may be candidates that are vile to us, I think ultimately, folks are recognizing the benefit and the value in having a good legislative debate and a good check in balance in this country. And so I think that there's a lot ofACs is saying that ties into that kind of emotional conditioning that's probably underway. Okay.

Starting point is 00:15:30 SACs. Trump said he was going to announce. He went after DeSantis called him to sanctimonious. Obviously, the Trump endorsements here didn't help. Roe v. Wade didn't help the situation. What is going to happen here is the Republican party finally going to cut ties because they want to start winning or is Trump going to just announce next week and cause massive chaos? What's going to happen in the Republican party in the coming weeks?

Starting point is 00:15:56 Because we're 14 months away from Iowa, right? I mean, this is now the next issue. The question comes down to do Republicans want to start winning elections, yes or no. And freeberg bought up the right point in the last election cycle. He's right that the reason why we got $10 trillion of unnecessary spending is because of that Georgia runoff seat. We're about to have another one where Purdue won that seat on election night and then we're not going in the runoff. Why did things go against Purdue? Because Trump had a six week hissy fit after the election, the Georgia runoff happened on January 5th, and then all culminated in the ride on January 6th. So the fact of the matter is, Trump has been having this extended hissy fit and living in denial since the loss in 2020. And as a

Starting point is 00:16:43 result of that, we lost the Georgia runoff. I think we did worse than we had to in this midterm. I think we're going to lose the Georgia runoff again if Trump continues with these antics. And so it really comes down to Republicans, do you want to win? And look, I know that there's call it 40% of the country, passionately loves Trump, but here's the problem. He's capped at 40%. Independence and moderate centrist will not give the guy another look. And so you cannot win a major national election in this country with 40% of the vote, no matter how passionate that 40% is. You know what 40% is? 40% is Charlie Quest, the guy who distanced his beat, who wiped out

Starting point is 00:17:22 in Florida, that was a 6040 election. That is what a 40% of the electorate looks like. Land slide. It's a landslide, exactly. So the bottom line is that who your messenger is in politics is incredibly important. And Trump just gives his enemies way too much to work with. Now, if he weren't or a Republican, it might be different take Federman, for example. Okay, this guy Federman. Okay, he's being portrayed as this man of the people, he's got the goatee and the tattoos and the hoodie or whatever. Who is he really? He's a trust fund kid who never had a job until his mid 40s. But the press completely

Starting point is 00:17:59 gives him a pass on that. They would never do that for a Republican. If Federman were a Republican, the press would expose him in two seconds. Now, that's a complaint, but the fact that matters Republicans just have to accept it. These are the rules of the game. If you're a Republican candidate for office, you have to be perfect. You have to be focused. You have to be disciplined. You have to be dissantists. You cannot give your opponents something unnecessary to work with. Every fight dissantists picks has been a smart fight that he's won. And the same thing with Len Youngkin as well. He doesn't give his opponents things to work with. And unless Republicans realize that these are the kinds of candidates we need to nominate

Starting point is 00:18:33 in this media environment, we're going to keep losing elections. Yeah. Jamoth, any final thoughts here as we wrap up election? I'm going to DC next week, the rounds high five and fast clapping. Yeah. Just finished the thought one other quote from New Hampshire governor, Kristen, who knew who's kind of a, he's a Republican who's been in spas with Trump. He said, listen, the message of this election is first fix crazy, then fix policy. If you're coming across like you're crazy, the voters will reject you.

Starting point is 00:19:04 Now, that doesn't mean you can't stand for principle. Ron DeSantis says that Florida is where woke goes to die. He says, we will fight woke in the boardrooms, we'll fight in the classrooms. This is certainly not a liberal position. These are pretty conservative positions he's taking, but he does it in a calculated, disciplined way. I'll say this right now. He is a winning candidate and the scale of Reagan, if the Democrats

Starting point is 00:19:29 also don't figure out how to clean up their act because the other message that's so interesting that I took away is the legislative agenda that works is actually what Biden has always believed. The problem is that Biden seems to get distracted or confused or hijacked by the left wing of his party, and they introduced all these unbelievably crazy iterations of progressive policy that just are not popular, even in blue states, just look at the number of bills that fail. So he also has to fix what he's doing, by the way. But he doesn't think so. He but he doesn't think that could fail.

Starting point is 00:20:05 Uh, the US judge in Texas. I'm not sure you can tell me if this is legit or, uh, or not. No, they stayed that, that what we should talk about that in the context of the economy, actually, but that was predictable. That was predictable that the college loans, the internet is coming out. Yeah, constitutional for a president to spend half a trillion dollars without Congress's approval. Kabil and Jamal's point here to Santa's won Miami-Dade County, which went for a Hillary

Starting point is 00:20:28 by 30 points. He showed that a competent executive, an energetic, youthful operator who actually runs the state well, can win over moderns and independence. And Democrats. These are the types of candidates Republicans are. Yeah, he's a winner. He's a winner. We got a call breaking in here.

Starting point is 00:20:48 We have a special bestie guest. He knows it's been a big news week. It's not just the elections. FTX, crypto exchange went belly up. And we thought, well, let's bring somebody in who's super credible in crypto. And that's friend of the pod. He's credible because he's wearing a tie.

Starting point is 00:21:02 Yeah. Hey, Brian, I'm strong. How are you doing, Brian? Brian, aren't strong. You look fantastic. Yeah, What are you testifying today? I'm doing great. It's not it's not Montclair and it's not Laura Piano, but you know, normally I just I just wear the black t-shirt and the hoodie, but you know, when times like this, I got to go talk to media and policymakers, regulators, and it's a it's a good time to, you know, spruce up the image. This is a week to break out the tie.

Starting point is 00:21:26 Yeah. Hey, listen, men's warehouse, it never looked better. You look great. Thank you. I see a red tie and I think fiscally responsible. I guess Brian, just to kick it off, FTX in spectacular fashion blew up this week. And it's pretty gnarly. You run in exchange as well.

Starting point is 00:21:44 What's your take on what happened with FTX, and then what is your position in terms of making sure your customers understand that Coinbase is not going to have a similar fate to all the other exchanges that seem to be blowing up every couple of months? Yeah. Well, first of all, I mean, I think we were all shocked that somebody like Sam who seemingly is so smart and capable ended up in this really the situation where he appears to have done something quite unethical and illegal. So my job right now this week has been to go out there and just help people understand that Coinbase is not like that. We've been pursuing a different strategy for the last 10 years.

Starting point is 00:22:21 We're a public company. We're regulated, our financial statements are audited, they can show that customer funds are segregated, they're backed one to one, we're not investing customer assets without their explicit direction. And so that's been the first step is just to make sure people understand that. But then after that, we need to kind of think about how we go forward as an industry here and both take a long-term perspective, make sure the good companies in the space aren't allowing one or two bad actors to kind of mess it up for everybody else.

Starting point is 00:22:50 And it feeds into the whole regulatory story, too, because companies like Coinbase are already regulated, but we're regulated like a traditional financial service business, but we don't have clarity about the crypto-specific regulations, like what's a commodity, what's a security, and that lack of regulatory clarity, I believe, has pushed a lot of this business offshore to these less regulated exchanges. That's part of what caused the blow-up today. They were based in the Bahamas, and there's not sophisticated financial regulators overseeing what they were doing. Brian, there's a lot to unpack, but maybe we can just take a step back and for the uninitiated or for the

Starting point is 00:23:26 person who's only been just following this very superficially. Can you just in a nutshell explain what happened? Yeah, so my understanding is, and again, this is from Pete's, but I've talked to and I spoke with Sam and see CZ briefly during this, but I didn't get details from them. I got it from other people. You spoke to them this week. Yeah, I mean, this was all going down. I mean, I spoke to Sam about, you know, he was trying to raise a emergency financing and things like that. And I spoke to CZ about why he

Starting point is 00:23:53 was considering buying the asset. I thought it was a bad idea. But my understanding of what happened at this point, and again, I don't have all the facts. This is just my understanding is that, you know that FTX was in a position where they had this market maker, Alameda, that was investing in risky things. That's fine. Market makers hedge funds, they're designed to take more risk. It appears at this point that back during the last shake-up in the crypto industry where Teraluna and Voyager and Celsius and three arrows went under, it appears that Alameda took a big loss at that time as well. They may have even been underwater. And instead

Starting point is 00:24:30 of just saying, hey, you know, this hedge fund is going to blow up, too, which would have been unfortunate. People would have, you know, Sam would have lost money. It's embarrassing, but it's not illegal for a hedge fund to blow up. It happens with some regularity. Instead of just letting it blow up, it seems like at this point, he took customer funds. Well, you have to explain, he owns both. That's for the people that may not understand that. Right. So it's a related card.

Starting point is 00:24:54 He owns his own exchange called FTX, and he owns his own head front called Alameda. Which operates inside of FTX as well as in other places. Right. But again, Alameda seems to have blown up, sorry, Brian, back to you. Yeah. So it seems they had this solvency issue. And instead of just letting it blow up, Sam basically said, hey, we have a bunch of customer assets over here at FTX, or he somehow basically made a loan from FTX into Alameda to try to prop it up. I don't know why he

Starting point is 00:25:22 did that. I mean, that's the moment in my mind where he crossed the line into probably committing fraud. And I think he probably lied to users, lied to investors, and he went around and tried to bail out these different companies like Voyager and BlockFi and to sort of prop up this thing. And maybe he thought he could trade his way out of it or something, I'm not sure,

Starting point is 00:25:43 but that seems to be where the mistake was made. Brian, can I ask one question, which I think will help frame the contagion risk set of questions that everyone's having. When people have an asset, we all talk about customer deposits and customer assets held at these exchanges, but those assets and those deposits

Starting point is 00:26:02 are very often some form of coin. I have some amount of Bitcoin, some amount of Ether, some amount of something else. Is it the case that there is an assumption of total asset value that's held in a portfolio of coins that doesn't necessarily match the individual user's accounts? And then when one coin goes down in value, nominally, to dollars, that the whole value of the portfolio goes down and now you can't actually make the customers whole. So in the statements that have been made by these guys and other exchanges, that we have enough liquidity to cover

Starting point is 00:26:37 customers accounts that the assumption might be we have enough liquidity if you assume the current market price for a whole bunch of different coins. But then if one coin tanks, the total liquidity tanks, and they don't actually have it matched up correctly because now the customer account value didn't go down as much as the exchange of the total asset value. Does that make sense? It does. Is that part of the contagion risk that's going on here? Is that they're not matched truly between customer accounts and the exchanges, you know, holding of coins.

Starting point is 00:27:06 So, not exactly. Okay, so if you're a regular financial service business that's put, you're not a bank, you know, we're regular it as a trust company, a money transmitter, etc. You're required to hold customer assets one for one. And to nominate it in the asset. So in other words, if you say the customer has one Bitcoin, you have to hold one Bitcoin. If they say they have $100, you have to hold $100. And so that's the case with Coinbase. You don't have to take our word for it, by the way. You can look at our audited public financial statements as a public company with an independent, you

Starting point is 00:27:36 know, big four accounting firm who went to go verify all of that. And that's what various custodians and exchanges, that's what they all should be doing. If, by the way, if you're regulated as a bank, you can actually go invest some of those, but there's very strict regulation around that and capital requirements and whatnot. And we're not a bank. So we hold one to one. Now, if you're an investment fund or a hedge fund or something like that, then you can try to take positions in different coins and different assets and they could go up and

Starting point is 00:28:03 they could go down. You know, you may lose your investor's money, but there's no such thing as the customer assets being involved in that. There needs to be clear segregation of those customer funds and from what an investment fund would be or corporate funds. That's where they got in trouble. They basically co-mingled customer funds with their hedge fund. Classic fund. Can you explain the contagion, by the way, just so we can...

Starting point is 00:28:27 Because everyone's been talking about the contagion and understanding what's next. So that's why I just want to... Yeah, because I think people are going to be asking that a lot this weekend. Yeah, so I do think there is some contagion risk here. I think there's other firms that had... First of all, there's firms that had money just sitting in FTX, and that's now going through bankruptcy court. So that's been bad. I mean, multi-coin came out publicly and said that they had 10% of their portfolios sorted on FTX. There's other firms that Alameda may have had loans with, and those firms are probably

Starting point is 00:28:57 struggling. I don't want to say who, but we have received a couple of inbound calls from other people trying to get emergency financing. There's people who may have just totally different from FTX and Alameda. They may have just had their own portfolio that they took margin or leverage on to buy crypto and now is the prices have come down a little bit. They're getting stopped out. So that's all been very challenging.

Starting point is 00:29:20 And again, just for the sake of clarity, I should say that Coinbase did not have any material exposure to Alamed FTX or FTT token. We just talk about this issue of customer deposits because this is really a Pucks the issue from a legal standpoint, right? I mean, I remember when I was doing PayPal like 22 years ago and the company was like six months away from running out of money I remember the lawyers told us really clearly You cannot use customer deposits to fund the operating expenses of your business.

Starting point is 00:29:45 In other words, if this business ends up going bankrupt, you'll still have all the customer money there and they'll be able to get it back. And it was really clear like, hey, if you use customer funds to pay for the burn of the business to operate the business, that is a do not pass go, go directly to jail type offense. And so like that's really the heart of this. Now I read in some articles covering this

Starting point is 00:30:09 that the way it worked is that Alameda had a bunch of these FTT or these FTX tokens called FTT. And they basically use that as like a marker as collateral. So they basically borrowed, was it like 6 billion of customer funds from FTX and then they used their own token to then as collateral. So back stop it. Yeah exactly. And then what happened is apparently like CZ got wind of this and he owned a whole bunch of these tokens and he's signaled that he was going to dump it and the price basically went down. And so now all of a sudden, the collateral for the customer loans was insufficient, and

Starting point is 00:30:49 then there was a run on the bank. And this is all- By the way, this happens in the public markets a lot as well. So like when you see heavily-shorted names, or when you know that certain hedge funds are on the brink, other hedge funds will go in and essentially force a margin call and a stop out, because then it's what causes all of these runs. If you look actually inside a GameStop, the reason why you got all this gamification

Starting point is 00:31:11 in the GameStop equity and a bunch of these other names wasn't part because of this dynamic. Folks that are highly levered, folks that don't have the right matching of risk and what happens is they're solvent but a liquid. And then if you run the instrument into the ground, they both become insolvent and illiquid all at the same time. And I know all the other frauds. So Brian, the question is now that we know what happened, which is all of these crazy inner party related transactions and you know, all of this stuff seems very illegal.

Starting point is 00:31:47 There was a bankruptcy filing today. And up until today, it seemed like this issue was really about FTX International and Alameda. And it didn't touch FTX US, which for a lot, a long time tried to position itself as, you know, well run and regulated as Coinbase, to be, you know, they tried to say that. But now, if you look inside the Wall Street Journal, all the articles say that this is actually FTX Group, so the whole thing seems to be imperiled.

Starting point is 00:32:17 Can you just help us explain that? Because there, now that's a lot of US people that were following the rules, thinking that this thing was matched one to one that maybe also affected. Yeah. So, look, I don't know who inside FTX is and its orbit of companies actually knew that the fraud had been taking place. It would not surprise me. I have no idea, to be honest, but it would not surprise me if FTX US people and employees

Starting point is 00:32:42 had no idea that this was happening. I am imagining if Sam was doing, when he started doing this, he probably wanted to keep it to a very small group, otherwise this is the kind of thing that leaks and the whole thing blows up. Now that being said, I don't necessarily think FTX US is worth anything as a business right now because of the brand being so tainted. And there probably was not great separation of these entities in the sense of, you know, like, did they have truly separate boards and beneficial owners and governance? And

Starting point is 00:33:11 Sam seems to have, you know, it appears that they didn't, F.D.X. didn't really have a CFO or maybe even like a real board or anything like that. And so it's all on red image. We found that there was an article that appeared that said that the head of compliance at FTX was also the head of compliance at a poker site called Ultimate Bet, which in the 2010s did this exact thing apparently, some version of this where they went in and they looked at whole cards of poker players. And then a few employees inside the business would basically play against these folks knowing what the whole cards of poker players, and then a few employees inside the business would basically play against these folks knowing what the whole cards were, ran this cheat, stole millions of dollars.

Starting point is 00:33:52 Somehow that person found a way to be head of compliance with FTX 10 years later, which is incredible. But back to this question. So, so now what happens now is you have the international business and the US business and Alameda research all rolled up into this one frozen entity, right? With now regulators having to so do you know what happens in a process like this? Like is it that the the DOJ and the SEC get priority or is there some international monetary like who who's who unwinds all of this How, how do people get their money back if at all?

Starting point is 00:34:28 Yeah. So I'm not an expert at this, but my high level understanding is that the bankruptcy courts will essentially, and I believe they filed bankruptcy in the US, which is an interesting thing. I didn't know why they did that versus Bahamas. But anyway, the bankruptcy court will basically go through and try to find any assets of value. They still have some tokens in value. They have a venture portfolio. I think Sam owns 9% of Robinhood. There's various things that they may own. Then they'll auction those off to various bidders on distressed assets and then try to distribute

Starting point is 00:34:59 those funds to the customers. I don't know the exact process beyond that though. If you remember the Mattoff down, took many years, and for years he was trying to find assets and then he found a market sold them. There's just the trustee, I think he's still active. And then, you know, it's tried to redistribute the funds. Obviously, so many more customers here than there was with Matov, but it can be a very long and winding process to identify all the assets, then run the market sale process on them,

Starting point is 00:35:24 then figure out who gets what first and then distribute. There was an interesting thing that Larry Summers did, I think for Bloomberg, where he was asked whether this was Lehman or Enron and he said it seems more like an Enron than it is Lehman. And Brian, I'm just curious how you think about it. Like is this sort of a fraud perpetuated by a group of executives to essentially take advantage of a situation? Or do you think that this is more like a Lehman situation, which is a well-run business, I guess, that just got caught in a liquidity trap?

Starting point is 00:35:58 I think it's, my guess is it's a little more like Enron in the sense that, I mean, yes, they were over levered in that kind of thing, but the minute that they moved customer funds in some way, shape, or form, to backstop the hedge fund, that was in my mind, fraud, and that's more like N-Run. Do you think now that we have to open the gates on regulation, like the whole point of crypto in some ways was, trust nobody. in some ways was trust nobody. Decentralization is the key, but here what we see is a lot of people were tricked into trusting FTX and having their deposits there, and it was a centralized exchange which caused all these problems. It almost violates the principles of what

Starting point is 00:36:38 the whole product market fit was supposed to be. So what should sort of the observer expect and what do you expect as a business in terms of how governments now react to all of this? Yeah. Well, I think it's really important to distinguish between the centralized players in crypto, which are custodians, exchanges, etc. Coinbase has a big business there. And the decentralized players, which are, you know, self-custodial wallets, DeFi, protocols, Web3, that whole world. So, the centralized players should be regulated, and today they're regulated already,

Starting point is 00:37:13 like kind of traditional financial service businesses, but they don't have the regulation clear when it comes to the crypto aspects. So, for instance, in the US, we actually don't still have clarity about what is a commodity, what's a security, which one should CFTC regulate versus SEC, that kind of thing. And that lack of regulatory clarity and frankly, the climate of regulation by enforcement, the negative rhetoric from Chair Gensler in particular has created this sort of chilling

Starting point is 00:37:39 effect in the US that has pushed a lot of that centralized actor's activity offshore. In fact, 95% of the trading volume in crypto is now outside the United States, and it's come down a lot since the beginning of this year, even. Now, the decentralized players, Self-Castodial Wallets DeFi Web 3, this is where crypto really has an opportunity to make a more fair and free and transparent system, because you can go look at any smart contract to see exactly what it's doing, anybody can audit the code.

Starting point is 00:38:08 If you have a self-custodial wallet, you can just trust yourself. You don't have to trust any other intermediary out there. And that's where you get true decentralization. And I think that's actually, no, those areas still have a couple of their own challenges. You know, sometimes people will lose their password or their phone and they'll lose their own

Starting point is 00:38:26 money. If you're trusting yourself, you still have to trust that you're going to do that piece correctly, but there's a lot of good things we can do there around making social recovery mechanisms and NPC wallets and things like that. We remember just a couple of months ago, Gary Gensner started saying, hey, these things are all securities. And you went and visited the SEC a couple of years years ago or you tried to, they wouldn't meet with you. You were very public. You did a tweet story and we talked about this on my other

Starting point is 00:38:50 pod. That, hey, like we want to meet, we want to talk about that. Now, we're still in a position where the SEC's position is these are all securities, which means the anything that's trading, it would have to be limited to accredited investors, et cetera. What should the United States do here? And how close are we to getting clarity? Because I know you're trying to talk to the SEC directly about, can we just get some clarity here? Can people buy these tokens or not? What is the status of are they tokens? Are they securities or are they not here in the United States? Yeah. So luckily since then, we have had a lot of productive dialogue with both the SEC

Starting point is 00:39:25 and the CFTC and Treasury and all kinds of people in Congress. And I do think the US is making some steps in the right direction. There was actually, there was a bill going through Congress recently called the DC CPA or the staff now Bozeman bill, although it's having some challenges now frankly due to this FTX blowup because SBF was one of the people pushing that bill forward. But regardless of that, the sort of system that we should have is there should be a clear designation between what is a crypto commodity, and that can be regulated by the CFTC, and what is a crypto security. Now, this is one of those legal, and by the way, what is also a stable coin and artwork and other things that are not any of those things? The challenge lies in that there's kind of a fuzzy line between what is a commodity

Starting point is 00:40:10 and what is a security. And a lot of this law is based around the how we test, which says a security is an investment in a common enterprise with an expectation of profit. And so it's basically a point-based system. And in the absence of really getting a clear list between the CFTC and the SEC are in this turf battle, I would love it if they could basically put out a list, get their heads together and put out a list, hey, CFTC is going to do these, SEC is going to do these, a bunch maybe are in the middle, let's let the courts figure that out or

Starting point is 00:40:39 whatever. But that just hasn't happened. And it's a missed opportunity in the US. So if the how we test is not perfect given the dynamic nature of cryptocurrencies and all the innovation, if Brian Armstrong was going to say, hey, this is in the best interest of Americans, balancing, you know, some amount of security and safety for people making bets on this currency and allowing innovation, what would you say is the best definition, the best way for us to regulate crypto coins? Putting NFTs aside, putting down sites, just specifically. Yeah, excuse me. Hold on, hold on, let me just tweak your question. Sure, build on it. Because we should switch to SPF as well and just talk about the person. But to me, it seems the whole

Starting point is 00:41:21 issue, if you come back, like what is the first string that you pulled that unraveled the sweater was the fact that these tokens were created out of thin air. They had no meaningful value. Somebody prescribed a value and all of a sudden, everybody else in the economy, all of a sudden said, yeah, I'll take that as collateral. You look, you cannot do that in the regular world. I can't call JP Morgan and say, I've invented this thing. It's called a share in XYZ.

Starting point is 00:41:45 And I'd like you to margin loan, give me a loan against it. So Brian, explain like there is a ton of these tokens that have been engineered, right? And there's been a ton of these tokens that have been sold. So what should people do that own these things, thinking that there was going to be some safety or value or like how do you know, like, how

Starting point is 00:42:05 do you think about all of these tokens that could be as basically as fragile and shitty and worthless as FTT? Yeah, well, there is this concept of like an exchange token and there's a couple other firms out there that have them and that's something we haven't done. And I think you're right. The actual utility of those things is a little questionable. If someone's going to mark those up on a low supply and then a low float and then somehow levers that, that's going to get yourself into trouble. But look, I don't want to throw out

Starting point is 00:42:36 the entire concept of people creating tokens. I think there's actually a lot of good stuff there. It comes down to this idea of if you're trying to raise money for your company there. And it comes down to this idea of, if you're trying to raise money for your company and through a token, that's fine. That should be a security. And there should be a regulated way to do that in the US. Like, go register it with the SEC, let it trade on broker dealers. That's what we've been wanting to do for a long time. And the SEC is taking their time getting there. They don't get in sort of, to be honest, he doesn't seem that excited about the idea of this whole industry existing. And so, anyway, but it should, it should exist and it should be happening in a regulated way. So if people want to issue a token that's raising money for a company, let's regulate it as a security. If they want

Starting point is 00:43:16 to issue a token that's truly on a decentralized protocol, or has some other purpose, like voting in a DAW or rewards or something like that, then that's probably not a security and let's be honest about that and allow those things to trade in a different environment, a different regulator under the CFTC. We're probably running out of time with you because you said you had a hard stop.

Starting point is 00:43:35 So let's ask the million dollar question. Tell us about SPF, like, what's, who is this character? When did you first suspect? Yeah, what's your read on the psychology? That this wasn't legit. Do you think that it was his altruistic intent that allowed himself to convince himself to do this? Or giving this was like malicious the whole way?

Starting point is 00:43:53 Or what's your sense of the guy? Hmm. So again, I'm speculating here. I mean, I've spent time with, I've met up a bunch of times and I have to say, I did not see this coming. Like he appeared to me to be a very bright, credible, competent person, perhaps a bit young,

Starting point is 00:44:10 perhaps, you know, a bit reckless at times, but not unethical and not committing fraud. I definitely did not see that. You know, if I look back to see, were there any warning signs that I should have thought twice about it? You know, one of the things I noticed was that in 2021, Coinbase had a good year. We did $7 billion in revenue for a billion of positive EBITDA.

Starting point is 00:44:31 We became public as a company. At that time, FTX did about $1 billion in revenue. I knew how much money we had for our venture budget and just different investments we wanted to make. I knew their revenue. I had to scratch my head a bunch of times. And I was like, where is this guy getting all this liquidity? Because he was like buying 9% of Robinhood.

Starting point is 00:44:51 He was putting like a billion dollars into this. He was donating to all these politicians. And I was like, it did not make sense to me where he was getting all this cash. People would just kept telling me, oh, his market maker Alameda is just printing cash. And I was like, okay, I guess, you know, it seems like a conflict of interest to own an exchange to market maker.

Starting point is 00:45:08 That's why we haven't done it. But more power, too, I guess. And so I was surprised. I didn't speak up. I cannot explain the psychology of it at this point, whether he's a pathological liar or if he's started off good and somehow under the pressure of this whole thing went bad. But the minute you can go watch the interviews, he's lying to people about why he's bailing out Voyager and BlockFi.

Starting point is 00:45:35 And he knew at that time that most likely he knew at that time that they were not solvent. Alameda was not solvent. And so that's where he crossed a major line in my book. And we see it time and time again, Elizabeth Holmes, Bernie Mattoff. I mean, once the line gets too big, you can't get out of it anymore. If that's the case, really incredible. And the most important thing at this point, Brian, is that the United States makes a decision on, do we want to be in crypto?

Starting point is 00:46:02 Do we want to have a say in this and create a regulatory framework that entrepreneurs like yourself can deal if that is the most important thing to happen in the next year But you're saying the SEC is not motivated. I guess why are they not motivated? They're just CYA want to know they're motivated now This is a political issue now, so they but let's hear Very answer here. What do you find out who did sbf give all this money to because he was touted as one of the future Biggest donors the Democratic Party if you want signals. So if you want signals I would say there is a pretty big signals here number one He says going to donate a billion dollars to Democratic Party and he kept touting this like effective altruism Whatever the saving the world stuff now why do you need to do that unless your reputation laundering and trying to buy political protection? Come on.

Starting point is 00:46:48 You don't think that was a little bit of a signal? Right. I'll tell you I'll tell you and even more explicit signal. We he pitched us in that $17 billion dollar round. And I did a zoom with him. And after the zoom, I'm like, this doesn't make much sense, but I'll have my team do some work. We did some work and we sent him a two-page deck. And we said, here are our recommendations for taking the next step. One was the formation of a board. The second was the creation of dual-class talk. The third was some reps and warranties around affiliated transactions and related party transactions. And the person that worked there called us back and literally, I'm not kidding you said,

Starting point is 00:47:28 go fuck yourself. Was quote unquote the response to us. We're like, okay, so that was the easy decision, but message receives message receive. But I still thought, okay, I'll just put that in the bucket of these guys are unbelievably arrogant and smug. But Brian, I thought what you thought, which is maybe it's because they've created some money making machine in the Bahamas. And so they have that level of confidence. But then to see this thing to the extent

Starting point is 00:47:58 of which is now, we're only scratching the surface guys. We're going to find out stuff every day. It's is gonna be crazy. But Brian, to the question I asked before about the SEC and what should happen, you said, I wanna pick up what you said, which is the SEC doesn't seem motivated. Why is the SEC in your mind not motivated? Well, I think you're right,

Starting point is 00:48:18 I hope that they use this as a moment to come together and help local companies in the US being built here to end up in a better place. And I do believe, David, I think said it's right. It is a political issue at this point. There is going to be a major impetus to get the clarity here in the US and hopefully to help build the companies here in the US that are going to serve the rest of the world

Starting point is 00:48:41 and in every major financial hub. So we're committed to building that together with all the regulators around the world. in every major financial hub. So we're committed to building that together with all the regulators around the world. And crypto is here to stay. This is a temporary setback, but I'm here to keep building and make this thing happen. We really appreciate you taking the time. I think you want to get to last. Yeah, be in the way. Listen, I mean story after story here about, you know, SBF was gonna create this billion dollar philanthropy

Starting point is 00:49:06 to save the world, improve humanities, long term prospects, number two donor to the entire democratic party, and on and on and on. And like, quite frankly, what this shows is, you wanna know what effective altruism means? It means that you steal other people's money while bragging about saving the world world while taking a big chunk for yourself That's what it means. There was a research paper in 2011 and

Starting point is 00:49:31 This research team looked at drug addicts and drug abusers 4,000 people and they found that the biggest addicts had the highest intelligence That you were twice as likely to become an abuser and addict If you were any kind of intelligent Quintile quantile that they were twice as likely to become an abuser and addict, if you were any kind of intelligent quintile, but they were measuring. And someone explained this to me at the time, that the smarter you are, the more you can convince yourself that when you're doing bad things, you're actually doing good things. Even if you're doing bad things to yourself or bad things to other people,

Starting point is 00:50:03 that you really may actually care about. You can convince yourself that there's some reason to keep doing it. He seems like a brilliant guy. I think that to some extent, he may actually, I don't know the guy, but he may actually believe that the, you know, the ends did justify the means and he thought that he was doing good for the world. And this was something that had to be done in some way and oh it just got a little bit away for me but it's still worth it. I think the problem is bigger than FTX and I'll say

Starting point is 00:50:33 the uncomfortable part out loud and nobody needs to necessarily comment if you don't want to but there were an enormous number of venture firms that hock their way into just completely doing zero work here. I mean, and the tip of the spear is this thing. Well, who's the guy that works at Foundersfront? Bullgar, Bulljar, Zibuljar? Zibuljar? Delia. Delia, thank you.

Starting point is 00:51:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That tweet that he had where he basically took the snapshot of the Sequoia transcript was one of the funniest things that I've ever seen. I mean, this was a $215 million decision, and Sequoia documented it and put it on their own website. And I think that's an example of something that was happening, which is people just looked the other way and didn't even want to do the layer of work.

Starting point is 00:51:24 Timot, let me just string together a couple of things we've talked about over the past few episodes. And I think you'll agree with this point, but generally speaking, there seems to be a very heavy lack of governance in investing, given the amount of capital and the velocity of capital in Silicon Valley, particularly in private markets of late. And a lot of the stuff that's been talked about or last week we talked about super voting shares and the founder does whatever they want and there's no governance and there's no board

Starting point is 00:51:49 and there's no oversight. And particularly with this FTX situation where clearly there wasn't a board that was getting the necessary information that had the necessary influence that had the necessary controls, the meta conversation. But all of these threats tie together the concept that maybe there's not a lot of governance and not a lot of diligence going on, and the amount

Starting point is 00:52:09 of money that's flowed into Silicon Valley has allowed a lot of this Lucy me. I'll save you. I agree with you. I'll save you. Let's thank Brian Armstrong for joining us and it was very busy day and what a great candidate insightful. Thanks Brian. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:22 Great to have you. Thanks. Thank you. And then, cypher, finish your thoughts, Martha. I just wanted to say the second uncomfortable thing out loud, which is there was a lot of venture firms in Silicon Valley in this period of both not doing any work or diligence who also took the extra step and actually created classes and would teach teams how to create these tokens. And those artifacts, those video links and artifacts are sometimes on their website, they're still on YouTube, they're inside of Twitter. And what these folks would do when we talked about this, the game that they played was they would get a team, they would create a token,

Starting point is 00:52:59 they would also buy equity at some crazy valuation. The equity was locked up, but the tokens were not. And then they would put them on an exchange and sell them to unsuspecting people, and they would be able to dump these tokens. And if you look inside of that trend, what you're going to see in Brian just mentioned, this those were the sale of securities, except it was done in a completely unregulated way. So if the SEC is really and the DOJ is really going to take this FTT token issue seriously and what happened to FTX, they're going to start to look at a bunch of other

Starting point is 00:53:36 tokens and token sales and you're going to end up looking at some very well-known venture firms inside of Silicon Valley. Okay. This is going to be super gnarly, and we talked about it before on this pod. There are people who knew better. So you get a bunch of kids who are living in the Bahamas, in a house, and they're, you know, winging this thing. That's one level of responsibility, and they'll go to jail. But when we talk about venture capital, capital allocators who've been at it for decades

Starting point is 00:54:01 to Schamax Point, and they're teaching people how to do this. And they're hiring attorneys and creating offshore Panama, BVI, whatever, places to put these coins. And then teaching people how to do it and then flipping them potentially, this is, we're just peeling back the onion on this. I have a feeling that this is going to be the turning point in all this. That token, guys, let's be honest,

Starting point is 00:54:23 is not the only token that has been engineered by Silicon Valley venture firms. And it is also not the only token that's gone to zero. That was engineered by Silicon Valley venture firms. Well, I mean, who knows, engineered by, but yeah, Jason too, at the very least. Oh, Jason, Jason, there's videos today on some of the most well-known venture firm sites on how to do this.

Starting point is 00:54:47 Oh wow, I'm going to have to see those. Yeah, so they're basically your point, Shemoth, is there instructing people on how to do this? And that is our deal of co-obility. It's what they did. Can I ask you guys a point of view on just one big macro philosophical question? I'm obviously not big in the crypto world and haven't been, but so much of the positioning has been that these networks get decentralized through the cryptographic verification systems that obviously enable them to operate effectively and truthfully and correctly and without centralized control or manipulation. But ultimately, while these networks themselves

Starting point is 00:55:26 may be decentralized, the user's point of access often ends up being centralized as a point on the network. And it is that point on the network that accrues the same level of influence, power, control, and value as what we saw in the prior centralized the network model. We had Bology on last year, and you know, I tried to get to this point with him,

Starting point is 00:55:49 we had to cut the conversation short, but I still not heard from anyone, and I've spoken with Brian separately about this point. And the concept I use is like, look media, if you put all the YouTube videos on a decentralized network, and anyone can access them and they're distributed everywhere, you still need to have a really good application, and whoever makes access them and they're distributed everywhere, you still need to have a really good application,

Starting point is 00:56:07 and whoever makes the best application is gonna get all the usage, and then all the users will use that application and that becomes effectively the point of control and influence and value once again. And so it seems to me like in this case, the exchange was being used as a centralized wallet. Certainly you can do, you can do exchange through the exchange,

Starting point is 00:56:25 but mechanistically these guys were storing their coins, their cryptocurrency inside of FTX's wallets. And so FTX had control over their assets. And so the network centralized. And so the decentralized model, it's a question I'd love to just ask you guys in your point of view on, does this decentralized model actually ever manifest where everyone has their own wallet?

Starting point is 00:56:49 And I know there's all these new protocols and these distributed wallets and DeFi things, but I don't know enough. Yeah, I don't want to be certainly better, but that's what it does. This points out to me just you basically recreate an exchange without a regulator. And for someone who ripped you off in a blue up like I mean, hasn't any different than what we had in version 1.0? And is there really a model where decentralized works are ultimately because of the network effects

Starting point is 00:57:11 and the economy is still getting off? Okay, so answer. So answer. We got the question. Coach, you're off. No, I mean, I have, I have, I don't know the answer to free bird question because I don't know this space well enough.

Starting point is 00:57:23 I mean, you know, my biggest purchase ever was Bitcoin in 2011. I've bought a bunch of these tokens that have massively depreciated in value. I think lots of investors have. I kind of fell into it as well, like I thought, wow, this is incredible. I get get to buy these tokens they do all of this cool stuff they represent all this value and My experience has been the opposite of that. I've lost a lot of money in these things And so you know, I really hope that regulators not just obviously I hope that regulators do their do the best they can't to get Investors money back in FTX But I really also hope they figure out all these other tokens as well because you can just rank them in terms of market cap, start

Starting point is 00:58:11 at the top and work your way down. And you will see that these were unregulated securities, Jason, that were manufactured and sold by our brethren. People who understand the law around accredited investors and the stuff very well. Yeah, they understand it implicitly. Do you guys think crypto investing is dead or what do you think? How do you think people think about that risk profile now inside of? I think investing in the tokens is going to end, investing in the corporation is going to begin. And any of the tokens are going to be super regulated. Building on what you said,

Starting point is 00:58:47 Chimath about the ultimate bet, is it possible that Alameda, the trading hedge fund, was looking at the FTX data, which they had insights into. And essentially that's the same as seeing the whole cards in the ultimate bet. And so they're making their trades based on what they see the consumers

Starting point is 00:59:02 are making their trades, front-right in their trades, or otherwise. That's not illegal. Citadel does this in the regulated market. That's what payment for order flow is. It's the ability to front-run retail volume. And so in dark pools, that is legal by the law in the United States.

Starting point is 00:59:21 And that's what allows Citadel and I think Jane Street and Susquehanna, you know, all these folks basically run these dark pool exchanges for regulated securities like options and bonds and stocks and they get this order flow and they front-run it by a millisecond and they just take small big. But they can't print the FTT tokens and otherwise manipulate the market to the level that I think SBA could. I just think that there's these really strict walls and segregation, as you heard Brian talk about, when you have those businesses in these regulated markets, the problem here is that this is totally wild west, unregulated wild wild west. So who knows what's going on? Really.

Starting point is 01:00:03 And we're pushing the business sacks off of the shores of the United States. As he said, 95% of this is having offshore. What do you think should happen regulatory wise sacks in terms of America and competitiveness? Or do we not need to be competitive in this? No, I think we should be. I mean, what if what if crypto and defy is the future of finance? I mean, it's an important technology that I think we should enable through some sort of constructive regulatory framework. I think the regulatory...

Starting point is 01:00:30 Where would that start? I think the regulatory should listen to Brian and help come with appropriate framework. But to be clear, look, what Sam did is way worse than people going on in exchange and speculating. I mean, look, I think that people who speculated and the buying and so on these tokens They're they were using it like a casino. Okay, like that's different than a customer putting their money on FTX and having their money get stolen that's the big difference So I think there's levels here now Jamal to your point about who's minting these tokens? You're right Maybe that's like another category But I do think that the reason why

Starting point is 01:01:05 this is on a different level is because it wasn't Sam's money to give away. There are such an easy solution to all of my time. I agree with you on that point, but I think don't underplay when there's an organized process to create an illegal security nice process to create an illegal security with special rules for them that allows the liquidity for one class of asset and not liquidity for you. Right, so that's a separate bucket. I don't think it's the same as what Sam did. I agree. No, I agree.

Starting point is 01:01:37 I think that's the answer. I think that's the answer. I think it's a graph. That's something that needs to be looked at and we need a constructive regulatory framework for that. There is such a simple silver bullet for all of this, which is these things need to be, there needs to be proper governance. People have to have skin in the game, insurance, people signing off on the taxes, boards, not onshore here in the United States, and then we need to have, and I'll keep saying this,

Starting point is 01:02:01 away for Americans to become sophisticated investors. Only 6% of this country fall into the qualified purchaser and accredited. If you want to trade in these things, or you want to trade in NFTs or private companies, we should have a driver's license like test, a firearm like test, and a sophisticated test,

Starting point is 01:02:20 and let the problem up into it with an education. The problem is when you have guys like this, it sets that desire back by a decade, if not more. Okay, because- That's really sucks, I agree. Because every single- So frustrating. Every single person inside of Washington right now,

Starting point is 01:02:37 who's anywhere near this from a regulatory perspective or a policy perspective is meeting on Monday morning, and the meeting topic is, how do we defend the mom and pop folks that lost money here? Yes. That's the only thing. So we took this out of, you know, because I remember I texted into the group chat,

Starting point is 01:02:53 hey guys, well, what do we think the legal ramifications are that drive prosecution? And one of our friends said legal ramifications, these are political ramifications, which means that this is going to go to the utmost level and it's going to have the most scrutiny and they're going to act really quickly. They're going to drop a hammer instead of having a path to accreditation. I agree with you. They're going to drop the hammer because they're constituent some grandma and grandpa or some people put their college education to some lost everything.

Starting point is 01:03:21 We just need a test, let people prove they're sophisticated and let them participate if and only if they get out. Jekyll, haven't you been a proponent for letting people invest in startups that are just mom and pops and do advertising access? I'm only allowed to do that with embedded investors. I would like there to be a test and I actually teach a course,

Starting point is 01:03:40 Angel University, six times a year for charity. I do it for charity. It's a four hour course where you learn about diversification. You learn about the asset class. You learn about 70, 80% go to zero. We teach you about the power law. I try to teach people about this stuff so that they can participate intelligently. It would be the equivalent for your book and thank you for asking the question. It would be the equivalent if we had a poker test and to play in the World Series of Poker, you had to go to a five-hour seminar and you had to take a practical test and you had to say, you know, a flush beats a straight and you had to just prove that you had some level of knowledge of how to play the game.

Starting point is 01:04:12 It's such an obvious path to removing these problems while staying competitive as a country. And instead, we're letting people do this offshore like CZ with no rules or whatever rules he chooses. It's just infuriating. It's so stupid. Our politicians are so dumb. So this offshore like CZ with no rules or whatever rules he chooses. It's just infuriating. It's so stupid. Our politicians in Washington are so dumb. Can I just say something? I think the challenge is there's always a spectrum of understanding and you'll always

Starting point is 01:04:35 end up seeing the people on the wrong end of the spectrum getting taken advantage of. There's this notion of adverse selection. Distributions are not equal. People will end up kind of opting in to spend money on things or making investments that they think are good investments, but they're actually getting taken advantage of because they're not savvy enough

Starting point is 01:04:53 where they miss an important angle or important perspective about the person or the thing that they're giving their money to. And there will always be some number of those. And the way that regulation has worked historically is not by first saying, hey, let's figure out the right way to create a framework for operating. It's that some sort of people got advantage. That story then becomes the regulatory framework.

Starting point is 01:05:12 And that story has repeated itself for 500 years across capital markets. We're talking about a multi-layered thing here. We want to see crypto have a framework. We wanted to blossom here in the United States. And then there's multiple level of people who are causing chaos in this ecosystem, in this very promising technology with their goddamn grips, whether it's VCs grifting or SPF or incompetence. We just need to clean this framework up.

Starting point is 01:05:37 If people, sometimes people I understand in DC listen to this podcast. If they're listening, it's essential that America can be competitive here. It's essential that everybody participate in risk capital and get educated. Let's clean it up and make a framework that allows all Americans to participate and educates them and then stops these grifters from doing stupid things. If people were educated, that's the first step and it's the best step. You talk about the economy. Sure. You want to talk about Facebook with 11,000. You want to talk about the market popping.

Starting point is 01:06:07 So at the beginning of October, I think what we basically said, kind of generally speaking is markets up, right? Markets up. For nibbling to being constructively positive and basically being positioned long. Here's this really interesting setup. We have a bunch of very positive news that I think we all have to process. First positive news was that inflation ticked down. Now, here's what I'll tell you. There's a caveat here. I talked to a bunch of pretty smart sharps on Wall Street. And, oh, two things.

Starting point is 01:06:37 Number one is they all gave credit to David Sachs and they said Sachs was totally right. Double dip recession is coming. But then they said, tell SACS that we think that these are the sharps. We think that there's a double hump in inflation coming, which means it's coming down to come back up. And there's a bunch of reporting vagaries that may cause that. So keep that in the back of your mind. But positive news number one is inflation ticking down. Number two

Starting point is 01:07:05 Jason we talked about this a federal judge basically stayed Biden's attempt at giving student loan relief now That would have been a five hundred billion dollar transfer payment from the government into the hands of individuals It is Deflationary to not not give that money to people. It's effectively taking stimulus away from folks. Number three, it looks like we're headed towards a split government, which means that we are not

Starting point is 01:07:34 probably gonna see any more stimulus over the next two years. Number four, Ukraine wins and curves on. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Number five, the United States announced yesterday through the Wall Street Journal that they had essentially said no to Ukraine's request for advanced drones. And they said to Ukraine essentially, you need to go and negotiate an end game here. And number six, China has started to relax its COVID policies and G is pivoting to economy first.

Starting point is 01:08:07 So if you took all the votes, take seven, don't forget seven. Facebook, which would not take the medicine, they refuse Black Gershans ladder, cut 11,000 people 48 hours ago. I don't know. One of the big book matters that much, to be honest with you. Well, but it matters that big tech is and they're taking matters to. No, it matters to us, but it doesn't matter to the economy to be compiling. I think it does if people are going to start

Starting point is 01:08:27 cutting jobs, but okay, keep going. My point is these seven things are macro level things that affect everybody. Yep. And I think if you take them together what it says is that, wow, there's the potential for a lot of great positive developments over the next six or nine months. And I don't think that that was adequately priced in the market. but here's the problem. And this is why we've been rallying. The problem is that most of this rallying has been because of a bunch of short covering

Starting point is 01:08:54 by folks that who are pretty pessimistic and negative after the last few inflation prints. So this is not really net new buying that we saw over the last couple days. So you take it all together. I'm like, it's still going to probably trend up a little bit. But then again, you know, we talked about this Jason, when the VIX gets into the low 20s or the high teens, that's probably the short-term top and then it turns around and unfortunately we're nearer.

Starting point is 01:09:21 Yeah. The low 20s high teens. So, that's kind of my thought on things right now. Okay, freeberg, you already thought something inflation print. Yeah, so I think there's two things. One of which I'll give credit to a guy named Carl chew. I hope I pronounced Carl's name right. He's from William Blair. He puts out these excellent research reports. And we used one of his graphics a few weeks ago. So I put it up here. And basically he showed that with with the NASDAQ move

Starting point is 01:09:45 that we saw this week. So you can see this here. He basically tracked the move in the tenure treasury against the one day move in the NASDAQ. And he said that it really indicates a unique sentiment shift, whereas in other times you've seen big moves in the NASDAQ that weren't really seeing significant moves in the treasury

Starting point is 01:10:05 rate on the same trading day, and that this is such an outlier what happened this week. The only other time that we've seen anything like it was when the Bank of England issue happened back at the end of September in the last 20 times that we've seen this big of a move in the NASDAQ in a single day. So we saw a 31 basis point move in NASDAQ in a single day. And so we saw a 31 basis point move in tenure treasuries in a single day. The same time that we saw what a seven point move in the NASDAQ. So he said, because you don't normally see the bond market, the equity market trade in this way together, it really speaks to a big shift in sentiment.

Starting point is 01:10:37 Now at the same time, what is that shift in sentiment? That there is going to be less of a driver for the Fed to raise interest rates at this point because it seems like the inflation print indicates that inflation is coming under control faster than what folks had otherwise anticipated. And so there may not be as many rate hikes as quickly as folks were anticipating which will benefit equities and the bottom market traded with that perspective as well. Now the counter narrative, which I just put a tweet by a guy who I've never heard of before, but someone shared this with me, his name is Gordon Johnson, and he said, the CPI surprise may actually be due to a technical print that within the CPI, one of the biggest indicators

Starting point is 01:11:19 is health insurance cost, and the health insurance cost plunged by 4% October to September, but how many health care costs didn't actually magically collapse. There was just an accounting difference in how they're shifting, how they're accounting for health care costs that took place during the month. If you assumed that that was flat month over month, you would end up actually with a 6.7% year over year print, which was higher than expected. So there is a counter narrative going on in the market. I don't know how significant this guy is or how much of a voice he has, but I don't know if we're out of the woods yet.

Starting point is 01:11:57 By some folks are saying the market is saying we're feeling a lot better, but there are still analysts that are indicating that maybe there is still risk To be had ahead of us. I think the sharps tend to be on that second second perspective And by the way, I'll say this week I heard five and a half points even after that print So is where we're gonna get to I think consensus we have here is is that we're in the endgame now Maybe what two quarters three quarters four quarters of choppiness? endgame now, maybe what, two quarters, three quarters, four quarters of choppiness, Chimoff, what would your gut tell you of you? I've been telling all of our startups that you need to plan to have money through the

Starting point is 01:12:31 first quarter of 2025. You must. Yeah, okay. You absolutely must. And the way that I've cashed. The way that I frame that out to them is nine. Yeah, eight or nine quarters of cash, ideally nine. And the reason is that we have all of this positive news in the offing, but the problem

Starting point is 01:12:54 is, again, there is still a lot of risk to the downside. We haven't seen David's second dip in the recession, right? So that double dip is going to be expensive. And again, the sharps think that inflation will come back at some point in the next six months. That will keep the feds foot on the gas. Maybe it's two or three more 50 basis point hikes. The point is Jason, you could be at five and a half. Again, we said this last week, we're gonna get to a point that's probably higher than what people expect. That's probably around 5.5. And we'll stay there longer than people want. That's probably through the middle part of 24.

Starting point is 01:13:33 And if you don't prepare for that worst case scenario, you're doing yourself a disservice. I think the market can start to rebound in the second half of 24. But if you're a company, you need to balance and plan for the first quarter of 25 because, you know, again, most venture investors are going to want to see six months of data on the ground that things are better before their sentiment changes. Yeah. And we're just starting to see the drawdowns. We're just starting to see the impacts in people's portfolios.

Starting point is 01:14:03 That will drive behavior change. I mean, this SPF thing is the tip of the iceberg in terms of the money at risk. You know, I went in, by the way, I did it in analysis. I shared it in the group chat. Hopefully we can show this up. Brad has a little chart, Nick. Maybe you can throw up the, the, the historic drawdowns. So for people that care about early stage technology, since 2018 through 2021 and including an estimate for 2022, we have injected $1 trillion into venture capital. And if you look at historically how money has been lost in periods like this and you layer that into 2018 to now, what it basically tells you is about $500 billion of that trillion

Starting point is 01:14:54 from 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22 is going to be destroyed. We haven't even started to see that yet, right? And then if you factor in another hundred billion or so from older ventages, we're talking about a 600 or 700 billion dollar destruction of paid in capital. So there's still, for all the good news, there's still a bunch of these unfortunate pieces of bad news that have to work its way through the system.

Starting point is 01:15:21 Yeah. And for people who are looking at the chart right now, and you can see the charts on Spotify or if you search for all in on YouTube, we have a video version there, you just take a look at 1997, the peak TVPI was 7.5x, 7.5x, cash on cash money, and what actually got realized was 5x, right? So what paper said and what got distributed were two different things. Anacdotally, what I'm seeing in the startup world, Chimath, is people are taking the medicine,

Starting point is 01:15:48 and a lot of people are shutting their companies down. They're giving up on raising money, and then asking me, which portfolio company can I get a job at? Because I, on my personal balance sheet, have been, you know, taking a 5K draw a month, and I have two kids, I need a job. Can you get me a job at Amazon or another portfolio company?

Starting point is 01:16:08 And a lot of aquahires have started to happen. And so what's happening is the consolidation of talent. People who would be a great number three or four person, but maybe they weren't suited to be the number one person are now consolidating into startups with these layoffs at meta and other corporations. We're starting to see very talented people who had peak comp of 300, 700 K a year are gonna go to startups or there's more companies.

Starting point is 01:16:33 And that is also positive. More consolidation of talent, stronger companies. Did you guys hear the story yesterday that Nick, if you could just leave out the name, t*** told about his friend. His friend basically makes $140,000 working for a tech startup, and then also makes $280,000 working for Meta.

Starting point is 01:16:52 And so, and he's been working at both of those companies virtually for the last two years. The guy makes $450,000 a year, and nobody knows, and he says he works about 20, 22 hours a week. On both, combined. So the 80 hours and remember, when we started in startups in the late 90s and into the turn of the century, the number of hours that was expected at a startup was what,

Starting point is 01:17:15 sacks when you were at a week. 60 hours a week, I would say. 60, 60, 80. That was expected, baseline. 60, 60. Yeah. Baseline 10 hours a day plus coming on the weekend for a couple hours. Yes. Yeah. For sure, a day plus coming on the weekend for a couple hours. Yes. Yeah. For sure. Easily. I mean, probably more early days of Facebook are our executive manager meetings wouldn't start till 9pm. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Elon's going to be a trailblazer in a lot of ways on this Twitter thing. You know, first he did the big head cover reduction, but then he also just this past week said, everyone needs to come to the office. If you don't come to the office, you don't come to the office, you have a good excuse. If you're an exceptional performer and you've got a good reason, they don't have to.

Starting point is 01:17:52 But the baseline is everyone comes to the office. By the way, just to put this point into focus, Nick, can you just throw up this chart for these guys to see because I think it's just ridiculous? This is basically what we're dealing with, which is like, if you look at, and these are just a couple of examples, but this is meta-amazon snowflake data dog versus Gilead Raffion and Exxon. What is the point of this? The point of this is just to show you that we have had a massive rotation away from our industry. Is the point, right? Where normally normally the things that we would work on were just so well received by so many different kinds of investors that unfortunately just isn't the case

Starting point is 01:18:31 anymore. And I think it just goes to show you that the reason why this is happening is because people are hedging their bets about how long the economic pain lasts. That's why, you know, they'd rather be long health care stocks, industrial defense companies, and oil companies. Because at the end of the day, they're banking on oil and war and sickness versus social media and e-commerce and SaaS software. And if we look at this chart, just no matter how good, by the way, this is not an indictment on these companies. Go watch the prediction episode from last year. I think that was a prediction.

Starting point is 01:19:07 I'm going to say, yeah, you and I nailed it on crypto. We both said crypto is going to crater. These four horsemen here, data dog, meta-amazon, snowflake down, 23 to 27%, and then the Gilead Raytheon Exxon cohort, 8 to 28% up. I think, Jamoth, what this says also is, we don't think your management style and how you're running these businesses is appropriate for this moment in time. Please consider some austerity measures

Starting point is 01:19:34 and some thoughtfulness in how you treat shareholders. These are my partners. Well, I mean, it's just watching the number, you know, how people are running companies, I think we took it too far in Silicon Valley. We took it too far, whether it's just watching the number, you know, how people are running companies. I think we took it too far in Silicon Valley. We took it too far. Whether it's, I know, I know that I know it's sort of a pet issue of hours because we have to deal with some incredible hubris and Eric and sometimes on the boards of these companies

Starting point is 01:19:58 because folks don't want to listen to, to reasonable advice and we come off as wet blankets. But that chart, to be honest, is because of what we explained last week, which is when rates go up, the value of a dollar that you earn today is just meaningfully, meaningfully more worthwhile than a dollar that you may earn even two or three years in the future. That's why that chart looks the way that it does. And if you believe that David's forecast of a double dip procession is accurate, which again, most of the sharps do, and then you also lay or end this idea that inflation could come back, you have to be really defensively positioned. You know, you can't take a lot of risk, which is why startups have to expect that if that's

Starting point is 01:20:42 the dynamic and $600 billion is going to get destroyed in venture capital portfolios, how open are VCs going to be for business? They're probably not going to be that open. And so you have to plan, I think, for the middle, for the early part of 25. If Amazon, and how do you get incremental dollars in these tech companies? Amazon does a riff, some austerity measures, they raise prices a little bit if they can, maybe you see more incremental dollars coming today. And maybe that incentivizes people. Look what happened. We were at $89 for Facebook shares last week, Timoth.

Starting point is 01:21:19 When he made the riff, 107, he went up like $15, $20. What does that tell you? I mean, I think it tells you that a lot of people were short going into that and they were probably caught offside a little bit by the magnitude of it. I think that that's good. The the issue that a lot of these companies have even in the face of rifts is that you have to reset expectations now on earnings. And if you do that, the problem is that when you flow that through to what people think the S&P will look like in a year, there's some real issues. So this is not free, you know, it's really hard treading. And I just I would I would just encourage people, it feels wonderful to have a few days of like it's like a respite in the middle of a huge storm,

Starting point is 01:22:02 right? It feels like we've been getting whipsawed back and forth, and it feels nice. The sun came out, the wind went down. The sun came out. I would just really encourage people in this moment to reset your energy, which I think is good, but you gotta go back into that office and you gotta find the money and the wherewithal. I think to last through 24, if possible.

Starting point is 01:22:21 It's grind time. Facebook by the way, 27 months. 27 months. Not for you in at least two years. Two years, yeah. It's 24 time. Facebook by the way. 27 months. Not at least two years. Two years. It's 24 months is the new, yeah. Eight quarters is the new six quarters. And by the way, you know, the thing that employees need to do now in this moment is to hold the management teams of your companies accountable because in those Q and A's, hopefully

Starting point is 01:22:40 you're not just glad-hanting, talking about bullshit. You actually go and ask the question, how much money do we have? What decisions are you going to make to get this company to be in a position to survive? That is really what's at stake here for the venture capital industry. It's just survival of as many of these companies as possible through these next two years. The conversation has to shift from culture and features to the bottom line and grinding it out and just proving it to Wall Street and to the investment community that your business is worthy of investment as you're saying. The dollars today matter.

Starting point is 01:23:15 All right, it's been a crazy week. Thank you to David Friedberg for showing up. Unfortunately, no time for science corner. Apologies to the Friedberg science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there.

Starting point is 01:23:31 No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there.

Starting point is 01:23:39 No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there.

Starting point is 01:23:47 No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, go in there. No time for science, David Sacks. People don't understand what you're saying when you say that, Jason. Oh, they know you're an asshole. They're there. No, that's what they think you're saying. They don't know. Oh, they don't know we're adding the sass to it.

Starting point is 01:23:53 Yeah. So David also is a great executive in software as a service in addition to being an asshole. So you put the two together and you get Sassel. No, I'm just joking. David's a wonderful person. People are really excited that you and I are friends again. It's a amazing moment.

Starting point is 01:24:09 That was your chance to make a joke, so I actually missed it. I threw it up there for you. I threw up the softball for you. You were just saying, you're not what I'm afraid. All right, we'll see you all next time. Bye-bye. We'll let your winners ride. Bring man David's side. And it said we open-source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it.

Starting point is 01:24:30 I love you, Sackett. I squeen up, you know what? I'm going on a beach. What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what Oh, go through that. That is my dog taking it away. She's driving away. Sit down. Oh, man. My ham is the actual meat. We should all just get a room and just have one big huge or two. Because they're all just like this like sexual tension that we just need to release them out.

Starting point is 01:24:57 What, you're that big? What, you're a beer of beef? Beef of beef? What? We need to get买 cheese aren't there? I'm going all this. I'm doing all this. I'm doing all this.

All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg - E104: FTX collapse with Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong + election results, macro update & more

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.