All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg - Mark Cuban on the AI Bubble: Who Actually Gets Wiped Out?

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

(0:00) Bubble talk: Comparing today's AI market to the dot-com bubble (7:50) AI's real-world limits: why enterprise AI is harder than expected (16:38) Transitioning to an AI-First Workspace (21:26) Health & AI: self-directed healthcare and biometric data (24:30) Politics, wealth tax, and AI as a truth-seeking force (35:12) Knicks & Sports Talk Thanks to our partners for making this possible! AppLovin Ads — AppLovin's AI advertising platform reaches over a billion daily active users across mobile games. Full-screen video ads with a 35-second median watch time. Advertisers are profitably spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a day and advertiser access is still in closed beta. The window is open at https://applovin.com/ALLIN Starting a business? Northwest Registered Agent gives you everything you need to build a complete Business Identity including free tools and built-in privacy. Get more at https://www.northwestregisteredagent.com/ALLINFREE Follow Mark: https://x.com/mcuban Follow the besties: https://x.com/chamath https://x.com/Jason https://x.com/DavidSacks https://x.com/friedberg Follow on X: https://x.com/theallinpod Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theallinpod Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@allin Follow on LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/allinpod Intro Music Credit: https://rb.gy/tppkzl https://x.com/yung_spielburg Intro Video Credit: https://x.com/TheZachEffect

You and I live through a couple of bubbles. We've seen this movie before. And this wave seems very different than dot-com waves. So let's talk about that. Are you concerned about a bubble? We're seeing bubbly like behavior people. It's not the traditional dot-com bubble, right? Because back then there were companies going public, getting crazy valuations,

and people are buying them. And the stock would go up, you know, 50% and 100% with companies that had no revenue, no traffic, no nothing. And you'd go get a cab back then and people would be talking about them. Yeah. And you don't see that at all today. So it's not a bubble that's going to impact most people in the room, right? Or most people across the U.S., but it could just destroy a lot of VCs and a lot of funds and a lot of P.E., right? Because they're going all in. App Loven started with an $8 domain and no VC funding and became one of the largest ad platforms

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for the SPX or whatever. But now you've got to outperform to keep the money coming in. You've got to outperform the fun next door. And they're all an anthropic and getting their outcomes and SpaceX and celebrating. But if shit hits the fan, yeah. It really is like I've only done venture for just over 10 years. And it is wild to watch so many people who deployed at the wrong time

just out of business. They just invested at the peak. And entry price matters. And you and I have been in a bunch of deals together. And we used to get to investing companies at $5 million, $10 million as angel investors. And then all of a sudden the request was 40, 50, 60, and the product's not launched. And you're like, how does this work? Yeah.

And, you know, and what's happening now is the market leaders, Google, et cetera, meta, they're borrowing hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah, that's interesting. And there's already a private credit problem right now. Right. And so you just layer on private credit, like Al Capital, getting all the refunds, and then you have these huge companies that have cash flow, but they're spending all their cash flow on cap-x, and then they're borrowing on top of that.

50-year bonds? Right. That's planning for perfection. And that's going to be hard. And we're building these data centers. And if there's a price performance curve on AI that minimizes the power requirements, there's going to be a lot of data centers that are going to be turned into pickleball courts. Interesting, because they just can't get the power turned on.

No, and then just a power, just everybody thinks that, okay, there's going to be so much more utilization, and there will be, right? It'll just scale like everybody expects. But there's going to be breakthroughs and technological breakthroughs as well. Just like we saw fiber back in the day, it was all about putting in fiber. Then it went from one gigabyte fiber to tan to 100 gigabyte. And then there wasn't a fiber problem anymore. There wasn't a bandwidth problem.

It was quite the opposite. We had dark fiber that. People bought for pennies on the dollar. And just sitting there, right? And how is it not going to be the case that we don't get the same price performance improvements on the AI side and on the data center side? Yeah. And then with all the hate going against the data centers, I think that could be protecting them. And I mean, spending, committing tens of billions of dollars for 10, 20 years going out.

Yeah. I mean, nobody can predict that well. I mean, you used the word pricing to perfection, I think, earlier in the conversation. And that's really what's happening. I mean, you have to have a thesis that we're going to put a hundred, you know, open AI, $100 billion to work. And that's going to come back, not just in revenue, but it has to come back in earnings. A margin dollars.

Yeah. Yeah. It has to be profitable. Yes. And you just don't know. And I'll tell you the other in terms, the corollary for bubbles, right, in this particular bubble because it's so driven by private capital, there should be a lot more companies going public, not at the SpaceX level, not open AI, not anthropic, but the $100 million

IPO. Yeah. Because if AI does what AI knows, we all know what it'll do in terms of disruption, then you want to have some sort of currency that allows you to buy all those companies. Like you guys were talking about buying different legal companies. Yeah. Right. Well, if you don't have that currency, the stock is currency, you're going to have to go out

and raise money to do it. And if anything happens, and that money is not cheap. That money is really, really expensive. Versus if you go out and you do a $100 million IPO or a $50 million IPO, and you can do a secondary or whatever as many times as you need if you're performing. But the minute that company that you're competing with that is a legacy business can't keep up or there's some other company that has domain expertise that you need or data that you need like you guys were talking about. Yeah. You want to be in a position to buy them.

Yes, that is incredible. Yeah, no one is forward thinking like that at all. And I'm like trying to tell my, my portfolio companies go public, motherfuckers, go public. Yes. They just don't think that's the right thing to do. Well, and A is, you know, not to make this political, but, you know, when you're an entrepreneur, you have to play the game on the field. M&A was off the table. Lena Khan had a certain perspective, which was we have to be like

precogs in minority report. We have to predict who's going to be a monopoly in the future and stop them now. It's like okay. Without consideration with to compete with China and everything else that's going on globally. Yeah. Right. Four years of no acquisitions. I mean, the people I talked to were in corporate development

were like, we've been told to stand down because it's not worth for breakup fees. But even so, right, it's, you know, with mergers and acquisitions at that scale, fine. But if AI does what we know it will do, the companies that are disruptive don't have to be enormous companies. No. You don't want to have to always raise cash to go out there and do that. Yeah, it's such a good insight. Right. Because like back in the day, back with Broadcast.com, we bought like five companies just stock. Yes. And then there was always a bigger

fish to come along. Yeah, which we were happy to, you know, be. Yahoo. Yeah. Yeah, the famous caller. If you were a clawed employee, if you're at Anthropic, you're at Open AI, is it time to start thinking about the collar? Try to think about, yeah, pairing the position. You know, I collared my stock because how rich do I need to be? Right. You know? And if you're able to change your life, if I work for any SpaceX, any of them, whatever,

I'd be like, you know, somebody put together a collar for me, you know, because I just need to be protected, save part from my upside, but just cover my downside. Yeah. When you did it, you had to actually orchestrate that, right? It didn't exist as a product. No, it didn't. So I had to actually create an index of Internet stocks. I had Goldman Sachs create an index of Internet stocks and I thought sucked. And then I shorted that index and we had to follow all the laws. And I just had to have that short in place until I was able to do a real caller in the market on my Yahoo stock. Yeah. And I lost tens of millions of dollars on that short. but I made up for it. Yeah, I mean, one of the great trades of all time.

What do you think this wave of capabilities in AI? I'm sure you play with it because you've always been a tinker. So maybe what are you tinkering with and what do you think is going to be the most world-changing in the next five, ten years for entrepreneurs, for society? Where do you look at it and go, hey, let's truly not. We need to work backwards. Yeah. Okay.

So AI is a lot harder to implement than anybody expected. For sure. Right. You know, you can do an agent pretty straightforward, right? Yeah. You can prompt away. You know, we cheated on test. We, you know, cheated at work, you know, did projects, improved our productivity, 100x, right?

All easy-peasy. And we just assumed, you know, at the enterprise, it'd be just as easy. It's hard. Yeah. And it's terrifying. And not terrifying for employees because Dario and everybody's saying 50% of white color, people are going to lose their jobs. Here we are two years later. They said within two years. And, you know, employment's still growing. People are hiring. We need more AI literate people,

right? So CEOs have no clue what is going on, none whatsoever. And that's not going to change, right? And so, you know, trying to explain to them that you need to add a hardness to, you know, all the, there's no chance, right? And if you think about it from an AI perspective, if AI, we're talking about, you know, AGI and we're talking about taking over the world. If you need to have forward deployed engineers, that tells you all you need to know about AI because by definition, you should just be able to ask AI to do what I need you to do and ask and tell me how to implement it, right? Yet here you have Microsoft hiring 6,000 people, right? You have Anthropic, Open AI, all saying they're going to deploy to these companies, which tells you AI is hard. And then you have Alex Carr from Palantir freaking out saying, how can you give your alpha to these companies when, in my opinion, he's just saying they're doing what we're doing, right? We're all about for engineers and Palantir, and they're doing the same thing.

Again, it's a great insight because you can, if you're using it as a search engine or you're making your little. agent to, you know, go to your cron job. Okay, fair enough. It's, it's going to work. You need to have a little bit of systems thinking. But when you start putting into the enterprise and, you know, this is mission credible work. But let's just talk about the little bit of systems thinking. Yeah. Because that's the second part. And I'm not trying to shit on AI. I love it. I invest in it. It's going to be amazing. It's the most impactful technology that we've ever seen and may ever see, right? But try going into cloud or chat GPT and saying, okay, I just want you to do this search for Jason Calacanus, investments. And I want you to do a

report and I want you to email it to me every week. Yeah. It can't do it. Can't do it. And then it says, okay, would you like for me to do an agent that gives you alerts? And then you say, sure. And then you have to know, program because it either gives you a JSON file or it gives you know, code.

And it comes out slop. Yeah. And then you have to be back. Right. You have to reiterate. You know, if you want to say, you know, hey, let me load a picture in and you tell me if I'm hot or not. Or is this girl hot?

What should I say to her? You know, or business versions. Great. Yeah, right. But AI is not going to, you know, take away 50% of the jobs. There's just so much shit it can't do that regular people need it to do. Yeah. Right.

Now, does that create opportunity? Enormous opportunity. Yes. Right? So, like, I'm an investor in Lovable. And we were here this morning talking. And so I was saying that, Anton was saying that they, people are using Lovable to create 770,000 applications a week.

a week. Yeah. Right. And that only 30% of their business is in the U.S. And only 20% is engineers. And what's happening is entrepreneurs to answer your question about where it's going, right? If you're an entrepreneur, like he was saying before, there's no better time to be an entrepreneur.

He nailed it, right? Because that's where AI is the most impactful. No matter where you are in the world, they have big utilization in Brazil. India, right? If you're in France, US, wherever, you know, like I gave, I gave it a prompt, like I said, because I wanted to see what it would take. I was like, okay, we're going to create an imaginary company that has a button that can record 24-hour video. And then I wanted to be able to send it to me every 24 hours. And I want you to create a patent and a business plan and tell me what licensing or whatever I need, 12 minutes. Yeah. Wow. Like, there just, no, we've started

tons of businesses. Yeah, six months to get a prototype, 12 months to launch it. Yes. And then you have to... Then I asked for a bill of materials and the source companies. Like the basic stuff to be that the blocking and tackling stuff

that every company has to do at, you know, when you're setting it up and early in its life cycle, done. Done. And even if it's wrong. So what? Because the one thing you and I both know and everybody in the room should know, every single mother fucking business plan ever written in the history of business plans

is wrong. Of course. Yeah. It's a thought exercise that at least gives you some sort of direction you're going. Yeah. It's a guideline and a template for you. Right. But it's wrong.

Yeah. So what if the AI is wrong, if the model was wrong? You know, because you're going to learn and you're going to iterate. But it's still, again, all this talk about taking white-collar jobs is ridiculous when it can't even do the basic shit, right? And you have to have, like you said, a programming mindset in order to be able to iterate and figure it out. And like even you would think if AI is advanced as we want to believe AI is right now, all the errors that we get when we ask it to do a project, it would learn from all those errors and even have, hey, I'm Claude. I see you

have a problem with this, right? And it failed on these three attempts. Let me just tell you what 97.6% of the other people who ran into this did, right? And then it would fix it for you, would tell you. It doesn't even do that. It just says failed, right? Or it says whatever. You know, again, AI is amazing. And particularly for programmers, it's game-changing.

When you have a narrow data set like code or legal, tax, it's magic. Yeah, and it's just math, right? It's going to nail it. Basic data, right? But when you want it to do when normal people anywhere in the world want to use it for normal stuff, great. You start a business. Great.

But if you want to start getting advanced, it's like figuring out PowerPoint used to be or Excel, right? You always have to have your Excel expert, you know, your power. In your company. Yeah. Or whoever that you knew, right? Or there would be companies built. I've invested in it like a company that's slide share that all they did was. that PowerPoint templates that you could download and redo.

AI is not even that advanced for, you know, once you get to the second level. And so that creates so much opportunity for anybody to walk into a small, medium, size, even large business, and say, hey, I understand AI. I have a basic computer background or better. And so all these fails that you're running into across your company, big or small, I can help you fix them. Because what AI can do once those issues are fixed is phenomenal. Yeah.

But even better if you're thinking as an entrepreneur to start a business, those things will eventually break. Agents get bored, right, and they drift. Because as the underlying large language model starts to change, the way it was originally programmed doesn't match what the large language model turned into, right? You see what I'm saying? Yeah. And so you even wrote something about this, right?

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all in free and start using free resources to build your business today. I'm trying to get the whole firm to be AI first. And even with young people, it's like one group embraces it. And, you know, they solve, you know, I don't know, let's call it five or six really pressing issues. The other group is, you know, not embracing it. And the difference between those AI first employees and the non-AI first employees, the gap is like, whoa. It's almost like when we got into the industry

and somebody knew how to use the office suite in a PC and then somebody else was like on legal pads. It's like that much of a difference. It's so stark. People who are AI literate, when do they run into a ceiling? Well, you know, it's what I'm seeing is a lot of tool hopping,

which it's a good question because they started with open claw. They started building it. It got brittle. Is anybody still using OpenClaught? Who's OpenClaw? Anybody using Irmez? agent, okay, there you go. Who's on Claude Co-Work? And then, oh, whoa, and perplexity computer, anyone? Okay, interesting. Those are the four that people have been bouncing around on.

And what I decided to do is, I was just like, hey, token max it. You can each spend a couple thousand dollars a month. I don't care about that. I just care about the games. And they all wound up going from OpenClaw. All the agents started breaking. It's hallucinating. It's like too frustrating. They started using quad co-work. Okay, great, but kind of limited. And then they started using lovable. And they built intranets for the venture business that no venture business would spend a half million dollars and 12 months building an intranet. Like you'd just be like, I'm going to put it in notion, Google Sheets, whatever. And then they just started building more and more software. So I have two or three people who are building software that I would say five years

ago we would have spent maybe two or three million dollars a year building this with that outsource company. You just would not have done it. Which means we wouldn't have done it. Right. You were just about the SaaS application that did it. And then we would have tried to like shoehorn it into a SaaS app and customize it. It wouldn't have worked. We would have given up. But how are you going to manage it now once they get there? Well, you know, again, to your company lovable, which man, congrats on that investment because that company was going to go out of business four times. And I told Anton, every time they say you're going out of business, you add a hundred million in revenue. Yeah. 600 million in revenue. And four times,

200 million, 300 million. Oh, yeah. It's going to be absorbed into the frontier models. The world, right? Yeah. I mean, I've got lovable. I've got Synthesia.io. Oh, yeah.

That was the first investor in. Nice. 10 years ago, maybe, that are just, it's just killing it, right? I've got AMI, which is Jan LeCoon's world model. Yeah. We haven't even talked about world models versus LLM and Transformers, right? Because everything we do is built on text and pictures. Yeah.

Nothing's going to fucking be text and pictures in 10 years, right? And but what's going to drive it? And like people say, well, AI is so smart. It's going to change everything. I'm like, okay, if you tell AI, if you show AI a video of a two-year-old on a high chair with a sippy cup, the two-year-old knows if you push the sippy cup over the edge, mom's going to come running and the AI's, the kid's going to start laughing. Yeah. AI's got no clue what's going to happen.

Yeah. None, right? If you're at a corner blindfolded and you have to cross the street, would you, rather have a video, would you rather have your phone with AI, but would you rather have a C&I dog? Yeah, dog. I'm taking the dog every time. Of course, yeah. It's not ready.

Right? Yeah. It's not ready. So just think about how far we have to go. Yeah. You know, and all this. Huge opportunity, though. I mean, the world models are crazy because you have videos available on YouTube and just,

we have the world there. So that's not enough. It's not enough. They have to wear gloves and now they've got people in Manila. like doing recipes. So I invested in the company Matter.com and they're launching satellites just to take, and they do spectrography where they take,

use the satellites to take videos of everything underneath them and use a spectrapeum, I don't even understand all the shit, in order to be able to convert it into a world model that will provide algorithms that other world models can use. Yeah. Right? There's just no way that the future of AI doesn't include video. I mean, it's a huge part of it.

And as the inference and the back to the build out of these data centers, as we wonder what's going to happen, people wanting to use more tokens and then these world building and video, man, that takes a magnitude of tokens. Yeah. If I'm going to be wrong on the data centers, it's going to be because of video. Yeah. Right. And world models and robotics, which is all related. Yeah. Yeah.

And robotics, you know, it's related, but we still got a lot. long way to go. Yeah. Health, you look great, by the way. I don't know what's going on. You have to what do you got? Reda True Tie. What's on the menu here? What's off the menu? Follow me on Instagram, M Cuban. I just, I'm eating better. I mean, you look better now than 20 years ago. Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you. T. It helps too, right? The TAM. But I mean, you look then and fit. And listen, we're getting up there now. We're not kids anymore. This is definitely going to help AI all the work being done. And I use it too. Like I invested in a company called open evidence. Yes. Yeah, which is just for medical, right? And I used it. And like, I have two,

I have one supplement I have to take because my eye level is low and I have to take this one medication. And I was taking them at the same time and couldn't understand why I was having problems. I run it through open evidence. And I said, here's everything I'm taking. Here's everything I'm eating. And they're like, no, you got to do this. You know, when you get up to pee at three in the morning, take this medication. Oh, man. When you get an old sucks. Yeah, right. I was right there with you last night. What's going on? What's going on, right? And so, you know, but it's, for health, it's going to make a huge difference, but it's not going to replace doctors. No. But, I mean, it is pretty amazing. Are you on whoop or are you an Apple watch? I watch, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, the Apple, the, the, the, the Woop plus getting your blood test, just self-directed health care with AI, man, you're going to get some early wins. And then when you do go talk to your doctor, No, you have it right there, right there. I get my blood tested, you know, now the prices are still three to six months. Yeah. Right. And I've been doing it for 10 years, so I know all my trends. Wow. And so you were doing it before function and superpower and all that. Like, you could go look up Mark Cuban blood tests on Twitter, right, X. And I would get into it with doctors like eight, 10 years ago. Yeah. And you're going to need this for your benchmarks. And, um, but it's only going to get better. Yeah. It's going to be really interesting. We had this big data moment. And it was like, okay, yeah,

we're storing all this data, but we didn't have any intelligence against it. Now, that's incredible when Apple is now putting that data. They're doing studies. I don't know if you've been invited to studies on your Apple Watch. I'm like, well, this is going to get very interesting. Just added blood panels. Yeah. So now your sleep data, your steps, your heart rate, your respiratory EKG, plus your blood work. Then if you can get your diet into it as well. Yeah, that's what I watch has in eye health, right? Yeah. So, yeah, you're just going to get smarter. Yeah. know, and that'll make your doctor's able to be smarter because 95% of medicine is guessing, you know, because you can't, there's no way a doctor can memorize all the new shit that happens

every single day. You just can't. But a doctor using these tools, having, you know, the empathy and the ability to communicate and the ability to see. Yeah. Right? Because, again, there's, you can't see. Yeah. You know, you could have doctor, you know, why am I bleeding? You got a blood, It looks like you got a gunshot wound, right? AI is not going to tell you that, Dway, today. When we look at the opportunity here, it's going to be a lot of change, a lot of talk about wealth disparity in the U.S., invest America, our friend Brad Gersner and our friend Michael Dell, another great Texan,

and thanks for welcome me. I'm enjoying my time with Texas. I mean, it's fucking great. I love Texas, man. Texas is fun. It's kind of like the heat's kind of like this. though. Yeah. We have air conditioning. We do have air conditioning. There's a record number of air conditioners coming from China to Europe this summer. You know, I looked at what companies installed

them and everything. Oh, you always got to trade. You always got to trade. I'm curious, but there's no sold out. They're all being shipped here from China at the moment. But really interestingly, you know, feels like entrepreneurship, which has been our shared passion for many decades, Hey, investing, another shared one, giving people access to public markets, invest America. We have this dueling narrative, socialism in America, capitalism. And it feels like this is the, in our lifetimes, you and I are close in age. This is the most fevered we've ever seen it. I mean, we have states, maybe not since the 60s or 70s.

I missed that. I was born 1970. You were born, I guess, 1944. 23. 23. I always joke, he's a brother. I look good for 1923. But, you know, it's just pretty polarized.

What's your take on the socialist? There's two things here. One, all the DSA stuff is local. Right. It's really easy to be Mandami in New York. When you have a budget, you get to control it. And it's local, right? You got elected.

You just do and you have to balance the budget. And you'll see it in Michigan and wherever else. I don't think it's going to be game-changing. But the more important thing is, is the people who are doing this are the people who are best at social media. Right. You know, because the algorithms drive

how people vote in the United States. I can't speak for the rest of the world more than anything else. Whoever controls the algorithm controls, you know, the election in many cases. Trump knows how to use it and what to Mandami, you know, what is unique about Mandami relative to Trump?

He's, what, 31, 32 years old? Yep. His whole adult life has been Trump and social media. He studied it. and the two together. Yeah. And the guy in Michigan, same thing.

So if you're good at AI, I mean, at algorithm, you know, driving algorithms, whether it's flooding the zone or, you know, like Trump's saying, they're eating cats and dogs. Yeah. It's just attention. Yeah. And it's just, you know, defining the algorithms because whatever you search for, you get more of. And if they can get you to search for what they're saying and show your interest, then you're

going to just get mandami 24-7 and you'll get the positive size of mandami or if you happen to be on the other side of the aisle and you are looking at stuff that's countered to that you'll get more of that we don't like but one other piece i think is starting to change that and that's the large language models the thing that i think will save us as a world more than anything else in terms of information availability and reducing the information asymmetry as it applies to politics are large language models because large language models have to be as literate or in literal and honest as they possibly can truth seeking yeah truth is better way to put it yeah so they they have to seek truth otherwise you'll lose trust in them and the last thing you know clod open AI needs is

you know they're lying their ass off about this for yeah their currency is getting you the correct answer and the correct knowledge, social media's currency is keeping you engaged. Right. It's two different missions. Totally different missions, right? And so you're not going to get rid of social media, but I think people, as they become more uncertain with their politics, are going to go more and more to large language models and say, who should I vote for?

And the large language model is going to come back and say, well, what do you think about this, what are your interest in this and da-da-da? And they'll give you honest answers. Yeah. And if you ask it, hey, what's a reasonable immigration policy? it'll give you a reasonable policy, which is like, yeah, maybe shut the border and do a point-based system like Canada, New Zealand. Whatever may be, right? Yeah.

I've done the same thing and it's impressive. Very impressive. You know, my favorite troll now is like JD or, you know, AOC will, you know, they'll come out with whatever their craziness is on either side of the aisle. And then I'm like, at GROC, please vet these claims. Be as objective and factual as possible. Check your work. And show your stories. And then it just replies to them.

I've been just totally trolling Stephen Miller. Oh, my gosh. Who, you know, he's like anti-immigration. I'm very passionate about, like, legal immigration and recruiting great people because we need them. We need them. Because you're running a basketball team. Every time you get Dirk and a whiskey, somebody else doesn't have him on the team.

You get Joe and Brunson. It's not on the Mavericks anymore. Now he's on the Knicks. Yep. You know, like, well, that's why we come to these things in Europe, right? Yes. Because great talent, right? Smart people.

Obviously, you guys are geniuses for being. here, you know, but at the same time, there's a different vibe in every European country and India and the whole rest of the world. Yeah. Right. And I think you're starting to see some entrepreneurs leave us. Yep. To come here.

And that's scary. Yeah. And hopefully, you know, large language models seeking the truth will help educate people away from what the algorithms tell them. Yeah. I think it's like important. You optimistic now? It's been pretty chaotic, but we're seeing such great progress.

You're optimistic about... Let's start with America, and then we'll go to humanity. Yeah, no, I mean, you know, like every country, we have our issues. Ours just happen to be kind of insane. It is pretty wild. Yeah. But the good news is, you know, we have term limits for our president. Yeah.

And it seems like 12, three terms is going to be the one for president. I mean, you're going to run? I mean, I hope you do, man. I would love to be your press secretary. That would be a bet. We'd have so much fun. We'd have fun, though. We'd have fun.

We would have fun. Well, if he decides to run for a third term, then I'll run. But he's not. Yeah. Okay, that's good. That's breaking news. I mean, I honestly, like, if you think about what we need, I think in leadership, executives who can, I think,

you know, who are like post money, post needing to make a living. No, I'm not going to even go there. Well, and then maybe who are doing it for love of country and maybe some amount of civic pride or. I get what you're saying, right? And it's just like, you know, in the U.S., the Democrats don't know how to actually do anything. Right. You know, they know how to take whatever happens and extrapolate that to the end of the world and the end of democracy, right? Yeah.

But and the Republicans on the other hand, you know, do crazy shit, right? Like they don't care about the people in the country. They don't, you know, there's no connection to people. There's no empathy. And so, you know, we're in the short term. But I think as we get past this next, the midterms and the next presidential election. I think we'll get to normalcy. I think people want it.

And, you know, the thing that's been really eye opening for me having lived in New York, California, and now Texas. you know, in Texas, we're spent half as much money for, sometimes less. I think it's 2.2 times as much it spent on each citizen in New York, and we spend half as much, right? $6,000 per person, they spent like 14 or something, 12 to 14. And quality life's better. But on the flip side, New York contributes more to the federal treasury, right, than Texas does. And you would think it should be the opposite, right, just because of the business.

and how things are run. So they're a trade-offs. Yeah, but it's changing. What do you think about all of us moving to Austin and, like, Texas? You got smart, obviously, for obvious reason, particularly, you know, like the wealth tax shit is just dumb-ass, dumb shit crazy. They tried it here. Everybody left.

Yeah, they left. And they did it for about two years in France. Did they? Yeah, I don't know. But, you know, when Elizabeth Warren first proposed the wealth tax, so I found, and she said, well, we have these models and everything. So I found the economist at UC Berkeley, and I said, would you should, share your model with me or at least tell me about it. He goes, I'm like, was it more than one year?

And he goes, no, it was just one year. I'm like, did you do any behavioral analysis to see how people would respond to the changes? Yeah. No. And so, you know, whether it's Madami, Elizabeth Warren, whether it's California. It's showmanship more than reality. Yeah. And I think people are forgetting that people are mobile, you know, like in the U.S. It's pretty extraordinary. you got Travis, Sacks, myself, Elon, just a bunch of folks have all of a sudden just showing up. I was there first. You were.

I remember talking to you about it. And the thing that's amazing to me is, you know, in California, they won't let you build anything. And then we go to, I come to Texas. I buy a ranch. And I ask the guy like, hey, can I like put a solar farm in here? He's like, on your ranch? I'm like, yeah, here.

He's like, oh, son, it's your ranch. You can do that? And it's like, can I, like, build like. Trust me, in the cities. I'm doing that in the city of Austin. I mean, but just outside of it, you can build. And housing prices have gone three years in a row. Housing prices and rents have gone down.

When you build a company in Austin now, I'm sure it's like that in Dallas and Houston and San Antonio, when I have founders move there, the entire pressure is released. People can own a home. And I was like, wow, is that really? Why do people still go to Silicon Valley? That shit like drives me. I think if you're a first time founder, nothing better in terms of so. in it, but when you're a second time founder.

You're soaking in it, but what they don't tell you, the it is shit, right? Yeah, it's tough. I think second time founders have now realized if I build it in Texas or Nevada or Florida, I'm going to just, all the talent's going to come. Just survive in the Silicon Valley just sets people's heads so wrong. Yeah. Right? So whether there's Travis, by the way, I've known Michael Dell since we were 22.

Yeah. And I used to do business with them way back when. But just the, in Texas, it's just like build your company and go. Yes. in the valley it's like, so are you series A? Are you series A? Yeah. A lot of distractions, yeah. 25 years, I've been waiting for my Knicks to win a championship.

And you played a significant role. No, the Spurs significant role. They should have kicked your ass. And why didn't they? Why didn't they? I think it was coaching, lack of experience. Yeah. Because you're up, put aside the 29, right?

You're up in the fourth quarter of every game. Wemby throws it into the back of some guy, misses two free throws, Deere and Fox goes the wrong way. A lot of mistakes. Yeah, and you'd be talking about firing Mike Brown. I mean, it was a, we were concerned when he got hired

and getting rid of Tibbs. Oh my God, Tibbs. But J.B. was the real deal, right? Yes. My Indiana boy, OG, right? Yeah. You know, he saved you guys. Yeah.

And you had Jalen Brunson. Yep. He left. And that was kind of destiny. His family wanted to, That's what he wanted. I mean, I could show you a text where his agent, you know, text me says he wants his own team. He wants his own team.

Right. Yeah, he was ready to go. And I texted her e-mailed you and I said, what's the story of the, like, this is what we're going to base the franchise on. You said, he's really good. He's the real deal. I love him. He's a great guy. That's the best part about JV.

He's just really a good human. I was there for the fifth game, six rows behind the bench. That's cool. And, man, I just cried. I just cried. It's been so many years. And you got your tip to with Dirk. It's so amazing how sports plays such a role in so many people's lives. Yeah. Especially now. Look at the World Cup. I mean, it's just like sports has just changed everything. And, you know, like I've been to four World Cup games in Dallas and I hate soccer football. Right. Right. I hate it. But just the whole

scene, the vibe, the energy, you can't beat it. It's like going to a Knicks game, going to a Mavs game, same thing. Yeah. And the NBA, is it peaked? It sounds like it's hard to say. I mean, you know, for fans, no, because I mean, it just grows on social media. You know, I went, I was walking in Paris and there was a basketball store, you know, and had Wemby jerseys and Gobert jerseys and everything. And so, I mean, it's just growing globally. Yeah. Is Wemby the real deal? Yeah, he's got, he got humbled though. Yeah. Which is good for him. It's like Dirk in 2006. got humbled and came back better, Wembe will come back bigger, stronger, better. Yeah, it's amazing how he went from this like incredibly, I don't know, there was a,

there was a magic about him to, no, he's a villain. And he turned it to a villain. Because it was New York and 50 some years, right, and just the circumstances. And, you know, San Antonio thought they had in the bag, everybody, it's like, I went to Indiana University, right? And if anybody here follows college football in the States, like, we were the ultimate underdog. We had not had, you know, we had not won 10 games. We had, we beat more top 10 teams last year than we did in 100 plus years of the program.

And so that just changes people's attitude. You were very much involved in rule changes. And we're going to get on AI next, but it's just great to talk to you about this, since we're both such super fans of the NBA. Seems like the rule changes, the apron and, you know, how punitive it is, has created a lot more parity in the league and nobody knows who's going to win. Well, because you have to break up your team, right? Because at some point, OKC will have to break up their team.

That's why they collect all their draft assets because you can't have three max players. No. And if one of them turns out to be hurt or not what you expected, then you're in deep shit, right? And so the second apron is just a complete game changer. And you have to be so much better at putting together a team than you were before. and you have to get lucky. Like the Spurs have Wembe on a rookie contract. You know, the OKC has got no hat-jet on a rookie contract.

He's not on a rookie contract any longer. So they have to be even more careful. And so it really changes the strategy behind building a roster. So we're going to see back-to-backs or any more? No chance. Maybe back-to-backs, but not a, what do they call when you have three? The three-peat. Three-peat.

Yeah. No more three-piece. There can be back-to-backs. Like, you know, if Jay Williams, J-Dub hadn't gotten hurt for OKC, I think they would have beat San Antonio and I think they would have beat the Nets. I was worried about them versus the Knicks.

I knew we could beat the Spurs. But I was concerned about this. You did not know you could beat the Spurs. Come on. We beat them two out of three of the games in the year. We spanked him. I knew it would be like a, I said Nixon six. It was Nixon five.

You guys barely beat the Hawks. And then... Oh, come on now. We were tweaking the offense and we just had to get Kat to buy in us points. Anyways, let's talk AI. Let's talk AI. But it is so great to be a champion. God, it was, where's your ring?

They didn't give you a ring. They didn't yet. No, I'm going to get it at the ring ceremony. You got one. You know, I always was like, man, I got to follow cubes and get, you know, a piece of a team. You'd always tell me you wanted to buy a team. I always wanted to get, like, a piece of the Knicks. And now it's like, my net worth doing great.

The value of the team disconnected from reality. I mean, my only chance is to call like Elon and be like. The very big part about the valuations is it's not driven by attendance. It's not driven by wins or losses. It's driven by subscriptions to streaming services. And it's going to be interesting to see because it used to be we looked at ratings, TV ratings, and people said the NBA was underperforming versus everybody else. Now the Knicks play, obviously, there's some pen-up demand there.

But what really matters is the number of subscribers, Peacock gets, ESPN gets. It's the ratings for ad sales. but it's more subscribers. I mean, I literally had to subscribe to, like, I think, one or two more services. Well, that's the whole point, right? And did you keep them as the question? Yeah, I'll keep them, sure. I mean.

Will there be churned? If there's churn, who knows what happens with valuations? If there's not, valuations keep on going. Wow. It's so crazy. All right, listen, there's your 45 minutes with Mark Cuban, the one and only.