All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg - White House BTS, Google buys Wiz, Treasury vs Fed, Space Rescue

Episode Date: March 22, 2025

(0:00) Welcoming Cyan Banister and David Sacks! (3:23) Behind the scenes of the Besties in DC: White House, cabinet interviews, and more (33:00) How M&A will be unleashed, Google buys Wiz for $32B, Tim Walz on Tesla (49:09) Deep dive on Google/Wiz: breakup fee, impact on VC, ROIC, cloud advantage (1:00:28) Treasury vs Fed tension, Bond markets, consumers, deregulation (1:12:57) Space rescue, SpaceX vs China, lunar landing Thanks to our partners for making this happen: Hims: https://www.hims.com | https://www.forhers.com Gemini: https://www.gemini.com/allin iTrustCapital (use code allin): https://www.itrustcapital.com/allin Follow Cyan: https://x.com/cyantist Follow the besties: https://x.com/chamath https://x.com/Jason https://x.com/DavidSacks https://x.com/friedberg Follow on X: https://x.com/theallinpod Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theallinpod Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theallinpod Follow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/allinpod Intro Music Credit: https://rb.gy/tppkzl https://x.com/yung_spielburg Intro Video Credit: https://x.com/TheZachEffect Referenced in the show: Bessent interview: https://youtu.be/lSma9suyp24 Lutnick interview: https://youtu.be/182ckTL2KBA https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/18/google-to-acquire-cloud-security-startup-wiz-for-32-billion.html https://x.com/Tim_Walz/status/1902197581586833643 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/democratic-party-hits-new-polling-lowvoters-want-fight-trump-harder-rcna196161 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144 https://www.ft.com/content/e6f516e8-2262-44d2-a030-7071b62b0be7 https://x.com/thesamparr/status/1902385138308104685 https://www.wsj.com/economy/central-banking/interest-rates-decision-federal-reserve-ed172223 https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/US10Y https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/10/technology/eric-schmidt-relativity-space.html https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/11/chinas-long-term-lunar-plans-now-depend-on-developing-its-own-starship https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/steve-kornacki-white-men-white-women-gap-gender-gap-rcna196791

Freeberg had this great story. There's a machine there. I've never seen this machine in my life, but he knew the machine. There's a machine- It's the Coca-Cola freestyle machine. There's a machine that's right by the Navy mess where we had lunch and the situation room,

which dispenses literally, I've never seen this before. This is how out of touch you are. This is in every 7-Eleven. 90 different movies. Every movie theater. Every McDonald's. Every movie theater. Come on. it's everywhere. This is everywhere, you have not left.

I was blown away by this machine. All the Coca-Cola's, all of the Gatorade. Tommoff, let me ask you a question. We need some new liver and joy. Tommoff, let me ask you a question. How much is a dozen eggs? 399. How much?

Yeah, $399. He got it, $399, that's right. No, $3.99. Close, close. $3.99. He got it, $399, that's right. No, $3.99. Close. $3.99. It depends, it's pretty much double that in the Bay Area or Whole Foods, but yeah, half that. Ask me how much milk is. How much is milk?

$8.99 to $11.99, depending on what you buy. How much is a sweater, Timoth? My sweater is $4,000. All right, now we're back. We thought you were back. All right, everybody, welcome back to the number one podcast in the world the all in podcast with me again Chamath Pali hoppitya David Friedberg and Look at this. Look at this live from DC our bestie David Sachs is back

he suited up in the administration and In the fifth bestie seat for the second time in the fifth bestie seat for the second time. My long-term bestie, Cyan Bannister, hot on the trails of her new fund getting announced. Congratulations on that, Cyan. Thank you, thank you. Excited to be back and I'm so excited. I did not expect to see David.

So like I'm over the moon. I'm like so excited. Well, I just popped into reminisce about this trip that Chamath and Freberg just did. Absolutely. Trip of a lifetime. Trip of a lifetime. We had all the besties of the White House.

It was really incredible. It's incredible. Oh wait, Jake, that wasn't there? Oh, what happened? No, actually, it's interesting you say that. It's interesting. I checked my spam filters and my Invi got stuck in the spam filters.

Oh, okay. But yeah, it was a little bit of a problem, but I, you know, I had ski week this week, so I wouldn't have been able to make it anyway. But yeah, you know, I noticed there were some other invites stuck in my, um, a couple of other invites got stuck. Yeah. My Jeopardy invite. I see that, uh, you guys are all going to be in the next Jeopardy in the second round. My invite to Jeopardy somehow got lost off the job to John, the

CEO. So that kind of, that was kind ofopardy somehow got lost. I have to talk to John, the CEO. So that was kind of a bummer. Also, I missed my invite to the Bridgerton. You've got a cameo in Bridgerton there, I see. Yeah, I guess I'm not gonna be on the Netflix show, Bridgerton, I missed that. I think we're in a bit, let's keep going, G. You're in a, and looks like my white party invite here with Diddy. Oh, well, we'll just cut it in post. Oh,

God. Oh, look, Epstein's Island. Oh no, I'm sorry. That was Reid Hoffman's invite. That was you. Sorry to keep that out of view, bro. Oh yeah. Keep going. You're on a roll here. Keep going. All right. All right. Let's get back to it. Let's get back to it. It was a triumphant week for our best. There were like little school girls giggling on the group chat. Oh my god, I'm in the

White House. Oh my god, look, I'm getting closer to power. What was it like? Your dream has come true. You came here to America from Canada, you built all this from nothing. And you wound up at the White House. Give it to me. It was probably the most intense three days that we had. Nat and I were there to see the president, but obviously we were there to see Sachs as well.

But there was a bunch of other things that happened. Myself, Freeberg, New Money Sonny was there. Our bestie, Elon Musk, obviously we dropped in with him. So to recap, on Sunday we got in, it was just like raining cats and dogs, nothing to say there. Then on Monday what happened was we basically had some meetings in the morning

and then David said, guys, let me just walk you around and just show you where I work. By the way, we camped out in Sax's office for three days, which was awesome. So we had the passes to be at the West Wing and in the Eisenhower building, that's Sax's office. And so we all kind of worked from there. And then we went and did our meetings from Sax's office

and Sax's incredible chief of staff, Tracy, escorted us around anytime we needed to go anywhere. So then we started to walk through the West Wing. We dropped by- Look at Saks's office for a second. Saks, I love what you've done with the place. Were you allowed to put up a piece of art? And look at that desktop rig.

I think the most iconic part of the West Wing is the portico where you see that, those very famous shots of all these very important people. In this case, it's just the four of us, but you can see Nick, there's the shot of all of us. Well, the Portico connects the West Wing to the president's residence. Tracy Sachs's chief of staff escorted us

from the West Wing after we did an amazing tour of the West Wing over to the residence. I don't know if we were really supposed to do it, but she has full access. So we were able to kind of go on the walk. And then we took a walk around the residence. I don't know if we were really supposed to do it, but she has full access. So we were able to kind of go on the walk. And then we took a walk around the residence and saw all the rooms. But this is the entrance to the West Wing right here.

So when you come in for meetings, administrators, so we walk in, Pam Bondi's on our way out. We got to meet Pam Bondi. I mean, it really is amazing. Like members of the cabinet are coming in and out of this door. Members that work in the West Wing are coming in. Or leaders. Yeah, and then we saw like leaders coming in.

One of the most iconic things we were allowed to do was see the press room. By the way, the people that work, and we'll get to it in a second because we met some incredible people that work in the White House, but some of the folks that don't necessarily get a lot of flowers, like folks that work in like the upper press room and the lower press room, some of the kindest people, and what they did was they're like, Oh guys, why don't you come and see where they do the presidential briefings. And the one thing about the White House is everything is just like in a nook and cranny away. So this is where obviously

you see the presidential seal isn't there because the president is not there. But we were able to do that. We met some really incredible- So you're in the press room here? This is the actual press room? This is where, by the way, it was just like a little door. It's so small. It's a little door off the side. The whole West Wing is disarmingly small. You can walk for 15 seconds between the Oval Office

and pretty much everywhere else in the West Wing. It really is very tight. And Elon's got an office in there that we got to kind of drop in and say hi., the president, obviously Chamath went over to the oval. Then there's the situation room. I mean, everything is within a couple of steps of everything. And it really is. You're in these kind of historic moments as you walk through this, you just feel the resonance of everything that you've heard about and seen and all the history and legacy to every everything.

And it's just all right there, compact in one space. You're just overwhelmed. It really was overwhelming for me emotionally. It was overwhelming intellectually. You just kind of walk around and you know, it's just, you're part of it. And it was so, I was telling Shamad, it was so emotional for me at the end of the day

to just be like, man, like you come to this country, you come to America, you know, from wherever you came from, and anyone can find their way into this historic space. That's the beauty of this country. And I, it never really hit me until we were in this moment. So let me show you, I kind of really got it. You made some really incredible people. Nick, you can find a picture of myself and Freberg and Sonny and Sachs. We're with Taylor Budowich. Who's that? David, he's a deputy chief of staff, right?

He's a deputy chief of staff for communications in the White House. His office is well-placed because through that window behind us is the gaggle. There's this lawn out on the White House called Pebble Beach and all the networks have tents there. And they'll do recordings with White House officials and the White House will be in the background. It's not like a green screen or an LED. It's the actual White House to be in the

background. That's why it's all set up there and it's called Pebble Beach. And then there's an area, I think they call it like the sticks, which is basically just like a paved area where White House officials can go out there and they get swarmed by all the media asking them questions. That's called the gaggle. So he can keep an eye on everything that's happening with the media through that window in his office. Is that where Marine One lands and you see everybody yelling at the president and trying to like talk over the copters? Or that's on the other side? That's on the other side. It's on the other side. But a lot of those reporters will just move over there when they have the

option to do that. But like when you see Caroline Levitt who's the White House press secretary or Stephen Miller is the deputy chief staffer policy, they'll come out and all of a sudden they're speaking in a microphone. It'll seem impromptu. There'll be a lot of reporters.

That's usually the sticks and that's the White House gaggle. We saw Elon obviously. Nick, you can just show the picture of all of us with Elon. And the incredible thing is here you have the most incredible entrepreneur of our lifetime dealing with so many complicated issues. And I'll tell you, Elon works in one of the smallest offices I've ever seen. All he has is a desk with an enormous screen and his phone. And you can see that there is nothing that matters except the task at hand.

And that's really inspiring. Like it just puts everybody on the same level. You feel this energy that all of these guys are doing incredible work on behalf of the country, 201, where there's no ego about some of these things, meaning what is the office size? What is this? What is that? They're just here to grind.

And I don't think I've ever seen a workforce more happy. Like you get there and the energy and the intensity, it's very much like the TV show, West Wing. There's just this constant momentum. Every day you live a whole lifetime and everyone is just like energized. And you like, I was talking to Sachs's chief of staff and she's like, you just never calm down.

Like you never, you're never like, there's never a dull moment here. And that's why everyone kind of has this grin on their face. They're just so happy to be doing this work. The intensity, I'm going to describe to you a 45 minute or so experience in the oval. So the next day, myself and Nat and Sax go to see POTUS in the oval. And there's this incredible meeting room and you're kind of, you wait there, right, the waiting room. It's quite

large, it's very beautiful, you know, beautiful sofas, etc. And then they say, oh, the president's ready to see you. And you get escorted into the Oval. And the one thing that struck me about the Oval is it's also much smaller than what you would think. Like it's a very good size and it's a very natural size, but it's beautiful and it's inspiring. And our experience was Nat was in the front, I'm in the middle and then David's beside me. And as we were walking through, you could hear that there was this like very important conversation happening between

and somebody else who I won't say about something that I won't say, but it was really important. And we walk through the Oval and we walk through the back and we go into his private dining room. And that has all this incredible memorabilia sticking around, Nick. Maybe you can show the picture of Minat and the President. So we had this conversation and in the middle of the conversation, we had a chance to watch some Fox News together because the Dragon capsule was landing. And I texted Elon, I said,

hey, we're in the oval, do you wanna come drop in? He texts back, can't, Dragon capsule landing. I'm like, yeah, I know, we're watching it right now. So Nat, myself, POTUS, Sachs were watching this thing kind of unfold. Anyways, then we have our meeting, it ends. And we walk out into sort of like this area where Taylor's office is, like where that picture was.

And we continue to just randomly sit there watching. And this is what you mean, Freiburg. Marco Rubio comes by, and so now we're just standing around. There's Marco Rubio, we were talking about the landing. And then out of the left-hand side, Sheikh Tanoon comes in because he's there to say hi to the president. Then he comes in, obviously says hi to Marco Rubio,

says hi to me, we talk for a few minutes, he leaves. So the intensity of the people, just within two steps of each other, you saw the CIA director walk in and out, it's just an incredibly mesmerizing place where irrespective, I think, of your political ideology, the minute that you're there, I think it's hard to not be anything but Team America. I think it's impossible, actually. And it's really inspiring. And by the way, coming home, It's really inspiring. And by the way, coming home, I feel like I'm crashing,

meaning like there's such a level of adrenaline and dopamine. And we are like these observers. So I can only imagine, Sax, what it feels like for you when you're not in that environment. It's a really intoxicating, mesmerizing place. I think that's well said, Jamoth. And every day there's something new. Every day you discover something new.

One day it's the Navy mess where, you didn't mention that, but we got a chance to eat lunch. Oh yeah, cut over to that, Nick. Do you have a photo of that? Yeah, we had lunch there. It was incredible. Did you get a photo of the burgers? I did, I sent Nick a photo of the burger.

I got the veggie burger. The burger's famous, right? It's got the seal on the top. Yeah, it's got the seal. They must use some sort of grill tool to burn the seal of the president of the United States onto the burgers. That's pretty amazing.

Which I think is a nice touch. By the way, you want to know something? They didn't do it on the veggie burger. It has a veggie burger. What does that say? They're sending you a message. They're sending you a message, yeah. By the way, what's incredible about like the narrowness

and the smallness, there's just a door that does not look all that assuming. It's very unassuming. And there's just a small sign that says, situation room. Right next to the mess. There's a little corridor off of the West Wing lobby, which by the way, like you said, if you're hanging out in the West Wing lobby,

you're gonna run into all sorts of interesting people. Everybody. But you go down this little passageway, it's so small, the header of the door is so small that Sriram, you know, does AI policy, he's 6'6". He almost concussed himself once because he hit his head at the top of the door. I think the door frame is about 6'2", is the clearance.

Maybe. And he's 6'6". Well, it was made over a hundred years ago. We were given high sets of American holiday. He literally has to duck his head every time he walks by. But in any event, if you walk to the end of that passageway, there's a little kiosk to get a coffee or you turn the other way and you're in the situation room.

I mean, it's really. You could be whacking a terrorist from 4,000 miles away, or you can get a mocha. You could do both. Why choose? Cyan, you have a question. What do you think? Are you taking all this in? Yeah, I want wanna know from David

what his favorite piece of art is there and whether or not David and Chamath saw the Declaration of Independence. Yeah, actually, yeah. Well, go ahead, Chamath. Yeah, we saw it. I mean, so this is the problem, Sian. I feel like I want to redo that moment.

I mean, David gets to do it every day, but I wanna redo it 50 times because we didn't necessarily stop there. He has to open and close the curtains because they want to keep the sun off the Declaration of Independence. Probably a good idea. I didn't think to like, oh, sir, can we just stop? It's just such a whirlwind that I want to redo. I think you'll get a chance to. Well, when I run and I'm president, because I'm the only one here who can, I think you'll get a chance to. I think you will. Well, when I run and I'm president, because I'm the only one here who can,

I will definitely use this to camp out there. Cyan can. Oh, wait, Cyan, you're an American. Way to dial up the misogyny. Good for you. I was talking about the besties here. I forgot for a second. She's a bestie.

All right, listen, amazing. I was wondering about the choice of the double-breasted Chamath. This is a strong, strong choice here, go double breasted to the White House. Take me through the thinking. So first of all, big shout out to Luca Rubidace, my tailor. I did double breasted on Monday and Wednesday. Whoa. So you quadded it in one week? But then I went single breasted to see POTUS. I did notice that. Yeah. it's a little gratuitous to go triple double. You know, you don't want to triple double.

By the way, so we're hanging out at the White House and we got the random, it was like one o'clock in the afternoon, Chamath, on Monday when they said, hey, would you guys like to sit down with Secretary of the Treasury, Scott Besson? And so then we- Special bonus episode.

They're like at 5.30 today. And we had a dinner at seven, 7.30. So it was pretty tight, but we were like, yes, that sounds good. So then we got to go over to Treasury later in the afternoon. We had a camera guy come and set up. So yeah, here's this beautiful room in Treasury.

I forgot the name of the room. Oh, look at that carpet. Do you remember? Yes, it was like the something chase room. We gotta find this. Beautiful room. So we set up the interviews on YouTube, obviously on X. And on the main feed. It's on the main feed.

And on the main feed. And then we got a call after we did the best in interview. And I think folks that were there from press, that was great. Howard Lutnick, who Chamath was going to be doing a meeting with on Wednesday morning, right before we were flying home, said, what if I come in early before our, who Chamath was going to be doing a meeting with on Wednesday morning, right before we were flying home, said, what if I come in early before our meeting, Chamath, and we do a sit down?

So we said, great. So then we got to go to the White House Press Auditorium. They have a special auditorium just outside the West Wing. And you guys will recognize the stage, obviously, for many Biden press interviews. Here's the stage. And so then we did this interview with Lutnick. the stage, obviously for many Biden press interviews. Here's the stage. And so then we did this interview with Lutnik and my God, this is gonna be a barn burner of an interview when it comes out.

I ran into him after he had done this interview and he was excited about it. Sounds like you guys were on fire. He was on fire, Sax. I mean, this guy, I think it's gonna, there's gonna be so many clips out of this interview. It was incredible. It was like over an hour and a half.

Wow. And he just kept going and going. He, afterwards we went to his building. By the and a half. And he just kept going and going. After we went to his building, by the way, you know that he's the secretary of commerce. Howard's office is the war department office, the old war department office. So we jumped in his car and we went to his office.

It is the most beautiful, this is again, I didn't think to stop and take photos. I should have taken more photos, but his office is outrageously beautiful. Asaks, I don't know if you've been over there. Yeah, I have, yeah. I had a meeting over there. Okay, so let me just say one thing.

I wanna say that politics and policy aside, these individuals from the White House Deputy Chief of Staff to these members of the cabinet, to all the staff that work in the West Wing were incredibly open and transparent. There were no press people intervening or involved. It was very random, very ad hoc that we got to have these sit down conversations

and they were just so open. And I just wanna say like that was really refreshing and really incredible. And I feel really privileged to have had the opportunity to kind of sit through this, but I was not expecting this on this trip at all. I think that when you work in the White House and you have been successful in the private sector, like Scott Besson or Howard Ludnick or myself. Or Doug Burgum or Elon.

Or Elon especially. I would describe it as a money for purpose trade. You're giving up money, but the sense of purpose you feel working for the White House, for this president is just incredible. I. And I think you guys kind of picked up on that. And in my view, that's a trade that you should be happy to make any day of the week because it is really an honor to work at the White House and for this president because he actually wants to get things done on behalf of the American people. The default state of Washington is just that nothing gets done. You guys know that. The bureaucracy and the entropy and the inertia just basically rule the day. It takes a president who, number one, has a mandate from the American people, number two, has a tremendous sense of mission and purpose, and number three, brings tremendous energy to the job, and then I think

finally assembles the right team around him. Those are the conditions under which you can actually make change, positive change for the country. And we have that. And it's kind of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. If we don't get this done now, if we're not able to cut the deficit and debt now, when are we ever going to do it? This is the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. And I think everybody there feels that. I think everyone in the White House is really proud to be there and excited to be there. And it's fun. And part of it is that, you can tell that the president, he makes this job fun because he's having a great time. He was really, I think, born to do this job in so many ways. He just brings so much energy to it. He's indefatigable.

There's so many. He's empowering. He's like everyone we met with, so to your point, they've all been successful in another part of life in business and whatnot. And they're generally post-economic people, but he's letting everyone run. We got to meet with several other members of the cabinet

and they were all sharing with us that they're being given autonomy and authority. They can just run. And I think that that's really important. If you want to bring in high impact people, you need to let them have an impact And they were all sharing with us that they're being given autonomy and authority. They can just run. And I think that that's really important. If you want to bring in high impact people, you need to let them have an impact and let them do their thing. I observe that.

Can I give you one quick anecdote maybe to wrap this segment up? So when we're sitting in, when we're at the private dining room, Steve Whitcoff, who's another incredible entrepreneur, was dealing with something sensitive, comes in, tells the president. He's in, tells the president, he's like, okay, great, great job. Then there was three other issues. Sax had something, then Sergio had something. And then on top of all of that,

so there's this bang, bang, bang, and then he's also like, guys, listen, for this dinner coming up, I really wanna make sure the acoustics is right so everybody has an opportunity. It's like the level of detail, from the most important thing all the way down to literally the acoustics in the dining room, he is on top of all of it. And that was just like, and that was again, just in my small little brief

observation. And I was like, this is crazy. To your point, like the energy and the, the indefatigability and the desire to get every little thing right, it's pretty rare. I kind of feel like America is in good hands, to be honest. You saw it just in those few minutes when he's being peppered with so many decisions, so many actions. So many decisions. You just realize what a demanding job it is and you really need a person who just is special in that way that they're just somehow cut out for that type of job. It is very difficult. Totally agree. I think Freeburg is totally right. If we can create a pattern where people with high executive,

let's just say that because that's less of a loaded word than businessman or successful whatever. People with high executive function that have proven it should at some point in their career, step into government and replace money for purpose. If that is a trend that this administration creates, I think America is in credible hands. Eventually, there will be- Which is how the founding fathers operated the government originally.

Eventually, there'll be a moment guys, where the Democrats win, right? There'll be a moment when the Republicans return to power. There'll be a moment when all the ideologies flip. But if in all of that, you can find people who are willing to pause their private lives, have demonstrated executive function and can make the trade, we're gonna just kick ass. And give back. It's great.

David, thank you. I really, honestly, thank you. Like you are- Yeah, thank you, David. Awesome. You're awesome. Thank you for giving us a window into that. And shout out to Tracy as well, who's an incredible.

Tracy's an amazing job. She's incredible. J Cal, what'd you think of the Besson interview? Did you see it? I did watch the Besson one. Yeah, I mean, listen, I would have loved to ask him a couple of questions. Obviously I would have probably done a couple of fastballs,

curve balls, would have gone a little bit harder, but he's so impressive. And you guys did like an hour with him. And I haven't heard what did we miss that you would have asked. Yeah. I mean, you know, you got to get a little bit into the chaos being created around. I think it's a good time for me to drop off.

Yeah. I'll drop off the J CalCate. Pontificate and tell us what a better job you would do. OK. All right, J Cal, we'll see you later. You can tell everyone now what a great job you would do. Okay. All right, Jake, we'll see you later. You can tell everyone now what a great job you would have done. Love you, Zach.

Love you guys. Love you, Brian. Thanks for the invite. See you in the commissary. What a guy. No, I thought it was really good to hear from him long form. I think there's a little bit of chaos going on with the tariffs and stuff like that,

but you know, I don't think the country knows how great he is. This guy is a powerhouse. He has an incredible track record. And by the way, like Trump picking him, I'm going to give Trump a little bit of flowers here. Obviously folks know I'm an independent and a never Trump-er who is, you know, supporting the administration to do the best they can. What does it mean to be independent but also have another label that says you refuse to consider somebody? I don't understand. Keeping options open.

No, I mean, I didn't, I had my own issues with, you know, what Trump did on January 6th. We don't need to get into it, overturning Roe v. Wade. We don't have to get into the things that I don't agree with what he did. Putting all those things aside, I think he's done a great job with the team he's putting here. And this is, you know, my message to I think some of the Americans or the people on the left is I would look at what he's doing and some of these individuals. These are really high functioning individuals. The last time I think he had a cast of characters around him who I think were kind of dark and I didn't care for a lot of them with Besson. This guy is like a bi, I think he, you know, was previously a Democrat who gave to a ton of Democrats and he is a powerhouse. And I think

he really understands financial.. And I think he really understands financial. Well, I think with a big donor to Hillary and then RK was a Democrat. Tulsi was a Democrat. Trump was a Democrat. I mean, I, you know, this is my point. I was a Democrat. You were a Democrat. Yeah. So I think that's, you know, Besant is, I came away from it saying this guy's super qualified and the chaos that I think Trump has been creating with like back and forth with the tariffs and his communication style, it made me feel better to know that there was somebody who is rock-solid like him in there and who's really thoughtful.

Because right now, when you talk to 50 people who are knowledgeable about the markets and say, what is the strategy here that Trump has, you get 10 different answers, five different vectors for it, people are trying to figure out exactly what he's trying to do. And there's a lot of non consensus. But hearing that he's got somebody like him there, and you talking to him for an hour, I felt much better about the situation. And that maybe there is a plan. I think it was a it was a solid interview.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the access level, you know, most of the time he's on something like Meet the Press or Face the Nation. And it's 11 minutes and the guy can't breathe. And for him to go an hour and you kind of, you did a good job, Chamath, of sort of giving his history with which I think the context most Americans don't have. So I was very proud of the job the two of you did. I wish I was there. Chamath did a great job, Chamath, of sort of giving his history, which I think the context most Americans don't have. So I was very proud of the job the two of you did.

I wish I was there. Chamath did a great job, by the way, because Chamath T, he had a very incredible, Chamath, by the way, I got to give you flowers for having good intuition on some of the questions you asked both Letnik and Besant that I think revealed a little bit more about their character and who they are as people, which I was not on.

I'm all about, like, what are the questions I want to ask related to policy and agenda? But you did a great job bringing that out of them. And that actually, I think, created a lot of texture for both interviews that I was not, I was not thinking about. It's a great job. I'm looking forward to the next one. I don't know when that drops, but that should be really good. Oh my God. The, dude, the Lutnick interview is like... That guy's like, he's a hardcore New Yorker, and like he really...

I just talked to him about tariffs. Let me tell you, yeah, we did talk about tariffs. Listen, the thing you need to know about Howard Lutnick is he is an incredibly resilient and resourceful businessman. This guy has built himself up literally from nothing. Good human. I'm a little biased, but he's a great guy. And you're going to hear some really incredible stories, but again, another one who traded money for purpose.

Look, I just want to say real quick, we don't do ads on the show, but we did have three sponsors that actually helped fund our DC trip and set this thing up for us. So I really want to say thank you to Hims, Hims.com and for hers, Gemini and I trust everyone listening to the show, please go to the description, whatever player you're in, check them out. These three sponsors helped make this trip happen. We're really appreciative. Please take a look at their

websites, give their products a shot. Thank you to him's Gemini, and I trust you guys are the best, we really appreciate it. All right, everybody, we got a full docket today. Lots of docket and, you know, just, hey, welcome back to the show, Cyan. I just wanted to start, you had a really great announcement this week. Long Journey Ventures, your venture capital firm, announced a 180 million dollar fund.

Tell us a little bit about that. Well, 181, 181, 181 and 18. 18 stands for life to people who are Jewish and my partners are Jewish. And it was something that was very important to them and to me to stand up after October 7th and take a very public stance. And so we announced our funding announcement

on Bloomberg yesterday and our office is on 18th street. So, yeah. Oh, congrats. That's awesome. What is the mission of the venture fund? What stage are you going to do? You and I started as angel investors together 14 years ago. Yeah, so we focused on early stage,

seed checks, first check in. And this fund is our fourth fund. We institutionalized more. In the beginning, it was high net worth individuals. And then now we're going to kind of what Chamath was speaking about earlier, is aligning what we do with our higher purpose. And so now we're helping, you know, institutions help people

go to school, solving cancer, and things like that. So every day that we get up in the morning, you know, we're aligning what we do. Our mission is to chase the magically weird, we're looking for alpha in things when everybody is consensus investing, and they're doing the same thing and talking about the same things, we're thinking six to eight years in the future. You know, when our fund three, we invested in a company in the chip space and you know, we were thinking ahead about what's going to power AI and crypto. And now that everybody's, you know, investing in the application layer, we're going into the next thing, which is like, what is that going to enable and what's coming down the road and looking for

founders that are thinking differently that most other of my peers would look at and say, that's crazy. I don't want to put any money into that. So that's, that's such a hard thing for people to get their heads around the non consensus bet and why that's so important. I'm, you know, I'm training, you know, new associates at our firm, and they always are going to safety. So they're looking at a vertical, they're looking at a startup and saying, well, this makes the most sense. And then they look at the ones that don't

make sense, but that are like intriguing. And they are like, yeah, I don't know if I want to place a bet on that. Because I'm sitting, I'm like, that's where the gold is, is that non consensus bet when you and I did Uber was a room of 21 people, three people decided to invest, 19 didn't. Yeah, that was a magically weird company at the time. If you remember, I sent it around to multiple investors and they came back with the stupidest excuses I ever heard, but it was their excuse, which is, you know, not everyone wants a black car,

the car doesn't come to my house yet, no one wants to get into a stranger's vehicle, the list goes on and on. But it takes a vision of seeing the future and seeing how it plays out and believing in all the miracles that are gonna happen and getting in early is where all the alpha is. Before the thing is defined as a category.

So that's where I like to play is I don't want it to even have a market name yet. Such a great observation. Like when an associate or some research company says, oh, it's the on demand economy, that's when you know that opportunity. You can let like all of my peers can go lose all their money in an ocean of dead bodies, because I don't want to play there. Yeah. And you get a price advantage too, right? Like if you enter early, before it's a defined category, you're taking on a lot of risk. And so, you know, I'm getting deals anywhere from like, five to 10 posts'm doing. Founder University now is just trying to do 100. It's just like a pre accelerator. If I find two or three

founders who I like, I give them their first 25k check or 125k check where they can just come, you know, do it with me. We're starting next Friday. So people want to come founder dot university. But it's just like what we used to do in the old days, trying to get congrats, be the first investor. And it's, it's really working to do in the old days trying to get congrats, be the first investor. And it's it's really working. And it's super fun. Hey, listen, there is great news, I think for the venture industry, this Google acquiring whiz. I think this is this could be the starter's pistol. Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic. Google

has acquired whiz for $32 billion in cash. If you don't know what whiz is, just imagine you have cloud services like Microsoft, Azure, Amazon Web Services, Google's cloud, Oracle's cloud, you need to have security between these things. They help do that. It's the largest deal in Google's history. David was there, I think, for some of the other big acquisitions. There haven't been a lot of acquisitions. Obviously, we know the wrath of Lena con was pretty acute for the last four years. But looking back in history, Salesforce buying slack, which our bestie Chamath here was an early investor in for 27 billion that occurred in 2020. And then we had a couple of things get blocked. HP and was it Juniper, I believe for 14 billion last year got blocked. And so, and Adobe Figma,

Adobe Figma got blocked in the UK, blocked in the UK, but they assumed it was going to happen here. And this is actually, we talked about this on episode 189, Shemoth, whiz turned down $23 billion from Google. They said at the time was because they wanted to IPO, but now reporting is saying it was because of the anti-trust stuff under Biden plus the UK, obviously. Go ahead, Chamath, you can take it from there. I think this is the Trump premium. I mean, the problem when that deal was being looked at

back then was there was still a chance that there could be a Democrat administration. And it was very clear that they were anti MNA and anti tech, quite honestly. And when Trump won, I think it basically said, okay, we can now look at these deals. There's another important part of this though. And this was part of our interview with Howard Lutnick. I'd love to just play this quick clip. What I'm doing is I'm saying, OK, I've got to collect tariffs.

So I go to one of the great software companies of the Earth, and I say, I want you to give me. You're going to build for me for America. You're going to build the greatest customs processing ever. But what's incredible is you're convincing these companies to basically like do right for America and build a software for you You think that's gonna be a movement throughout the government or is that here's the idea I say build it for me for free Yeah, I put it in for free

No, what other countries in the world you think gonna buy now? Right if it works for us. Well remember you have to you have to connect to me. So every country is going to lie. Right. This is awesome. What he's really saying is there are all kinds of companies that are doing all kinds of work who Google famously has this 20% time. Could you imagine if some of this 20% time was allocated to rebuilding the core infrastructure of America and giving back to the country that gives you the ability to have a multi-trillion dollar company.

That's about one example. So when you connect the dots, the way that I interpret it is that I think companies will be much more aggressive on M&A. Jason, it's what you've been asking for. I think you're gonna get it. And I think the reason why you're gonna get it is're going to have a very open-minded administration that will let the M&A happen. But also there are ways where you can build goodwill by doing the kinds of things

that Howard is talking about. Could you imagine if somebody volunteered, let's say Palantir, and said, hey, we can build the following software for the IRS so that we can just completely automate tax returns. And it's okay for Palinjie. There's still a $200 billion company. They could allocate a small amount of time and get that done. If Oracle stepped up and said something. And all of that goodwill will then allow America to just grow faster. And then under that economic umbrella, a little consolidation is not necessarily a bad thing. So I'm really interested in how all of these pieces move together. That's the one thing I get. But I'd like to say something else very narrowly about Wizz, which is Wizz does

not do something that's necessarily unique, meaning there are other products in market. But they have done one thing better than everybody else. And I think it's really worth rewarding, which is they have incredible taste. So if you use it, and all my engineers at 80, 90 live inside of this regime, when I ask them, hey, we need to implement something, they all picked whiz. And if you ask them why, and if you ask our sysadmin, why did we implement it, not only is it good, but it is the most beautiful, it is the most intuitive, it's the most well integrated. And it's just an incredible lesson where even when other people do this other thing, you can build $32 billion of value by just doing that thing in a

more coherent way. I mean, design matters, right? I think having taste and having taste matters. Having a perspective. It's so great that that was rewarded. Cyan, what do you think of what I'll call Lutnik's Lighthouse customer approach? In other words, make this piece of software for the US government will become your first customer, the lighthouse that pulls in other customers for free and for free. So we get it for free. We help you

set the standard and then you get to use us as your reference client. Let's start with that thoughts on that and then we'll get into M&A. I think that the government has long relied on private industry to solve some of its biggest problems and that's what sets us apart from other countries in the world. And so, you know, you look at some of the best companies like SpaceX, Anderol, et cetera. We need more companies like this if we're going to compete. And so doing this absolutely makes sense.

And it's just going to help the sales cycle to get that sort of stamp of approval that, you know, our government is using that software. Freeberg, your thoughts on Letnik's lighthouse strategy? Could it work? Yeah, I think this is what makes it good to have, you know, as we talked about earlier, folks with high executive function and business experience and acumen in key leadership positions in the government so they know how to drive kind of better economic outcomes, negotiating the price of a contract down and saying, in this case, give it to us for free. One of the things Letnik said in the interview, which you didn't see in this clip, is that

the government can actually accept four free contracts, these gratis contracts, and you don't need to go get approval to do it. So they can operate in the executive branch. Oh, that makes total sense, right? You don't need an approval if it's gratis. That makes total. That's right. Yeah. That makes it even more great. That's also a big unlock. Yeah. Well, then I guess we can contrast this Chamath with Tim Walz, you know, VP, potential VP candidate. I have a real problem with this clip, Jason. This was the most infuriating thing I've ever seen

from a politician. I mean, Tim Walz gets on stage, pulls out his stock app and starts mocking the greatest American car company ever created and that its stock is down. This is Disgraciad.com to me. Play the clip. I know some of you know this on the iPhone. They've got that little stock app. I added Tesla to it to give me a little boost during the day. 225 and drop this. So 225 and dropping. So.

Go ahead. And if you own one, if you own one, we're not blaming you. You can, you can take dental floss and pull the Tesla thing off, you know, and take out just telling you. I mean, Chamath, you want to talk about this communist scumbag and what he did there? No, I'm not going to say anything personal,

except to say that I think that it is incredibly low brow. At the end of the day, he represents the American people. He needs to be firmly on Team America. I don't think he understands this because he's never actually had a real job, but the auto industry is a vibrant part of how many, many, many Americans earn their living. Tesla employees, 125,000 plus employees. There is no reason a politician should be wishing

any American company to fail, period. I just think that should be the price of entry. And so to lack the basic decorum and understanding, and then to whip people up into wanting any American company to fail. There are many American companies I like or dislike. Whatever, it's not the point. There are some that I'll buy the stock of. There are some that I would not. That's not the point.

You cannot openly and actively be cheering, as a politician at least, for these things to fail. That I think is just incredibly lowbrow. I think it's the bottoming out of the Democratic Party. That moment will be looked at as the bottom. Sayan, any thoughts? I think it's incredibly lowbrow. I agree with Chamath and I think it's just so distasteful for, you know,

a public official to do something like that in, especially for an American company. And it, you know, if you hear the people cheering in the background, it's obvious that there's a base that supports this. And that frightens me even more because he's saying these things because it's constituent, his constituents believe it. And, you know, a politician says these things

because they think it's going to motivate them to vote for them in the future. And that really frightens me, you know, that we are riling people up, um up to cheer on the destruction of American company and possibly go out and burn cars. You know, I think well, that's the that's the outcome. Yeah, but because whenever you incite like this kind of aggressiveness, and by the way, both sides do it, you get a contingent who takes it

too far free bird. Maybe we wrap up on this and then we can jump back to whiz. Sorry for the diversion. I think the Democratic Party has split into two parties. There's the Democratic Party with beliefs and there's a Democratic Party without beliefs. I think that the Democratic Party with beliefs is the one that's very far left and their beliefs are fundamentally rooted in concepts of socialism, Marxism. And they're very clear about those beliefs, that traditional power structures need to be dismantled, and assets and influence need to be commonly redistributed.

The rest of the Democratic Party, which people call the moderate part of the party, actually don't really know what their beliefs are. When you talk to anyone in the Republican Party in a leadership position, you hear very clearly what their beliefs are. We saw it this week in DC. Every member of the cabinet that we met with,

and there were quite a number of them, had the exact same message and the exact same set of beliefs of what this administration stands for and what they're trying to do. You may agree with those beliefs or you may not, but they have stated their beliefs. The problem is that because the moderates in the Democratic Party have not stated a

set of beliefs, a set of objectives, a vision for the country, a vision for their party, the party is effectively being represented by this part of the party that does have beliefs, the deeply socialist Marxist beliefs. And they have basically subsumed the message. And as a result, this is why people have lost interest in the Democratic Party, because the moderate aspect has not been really clear on what their beliefs are. There's an opportunity for some of these moderate leaders in the Democratic Party, like Dean Phillips, like, and people may not like me saying this, but like Gavin Youssef, who I don't think is all the way over on that far left side of the spectrum, to be really clear and paint a better vision and really state the beliefs of the party and what the beliefs are that differentiate them. And those beliefs, recently, the only thing that

underscores what that party stands for is we're not the other guys, we're not the Republicans, and that's it. And so people that don't like the Republicans are like, well, I don't know. Cause then I'm subsumed by the socialist Marxist rhetoric. So I don't know if I want to be a part of that either. And that's why I think a lot of people feel left out. And that's why I think the recent polling data, if you pull it up on the Democrats, it's like 23% or something in this country now.

It was like 30s or something. Did you see the crazy clip that did the racial demographic split on some key issues, like things like DEI? Is this the one that says white college age women are just like this weird? Anyway, I think Tim Waltz, like a lot of others, because there's no other beliefs to stand for, you end up being subsumed by the part of the democratic party

that does have beliefs, and you don't have anything else to say, to state and to show what you're for. And I think a lot of people- Here's an idea too, Mike. It's a really good framing. I really like that. Well, and here's another framing. Is it so hard to agree on something? I think this is one of the brilliant things that Trump did was he's like, here are some things we can agree on, and he just subsumed those, like fighting for the working class person, saying no tax on tips.

These were democratic positions. I think this just proves that meme where it's like, standing here and the left just went too far away. And they let me give you a piece of advice to the Democratic Party leadership that might be listening. The advice I would give you is basically take away the opportunity for the distinction that the Republicans have right now, which is a more efficient government, a more fair government where money isn't wasted, where your taxpayer dollars aren't being destroyed. The Democratic Party has an opportunity to stand up and say, we don't want to have things like regulatory capture or this pork or inside stuff going on.

They have an opportunity to make that the core set of beliefs that still aligns with reducing government and increasing efficiency in government Efficiency in government should not be a party issue By allowing the Republicans to say we're for efficient government it implies that the Democrats now to be opposite of that or saying we're for inefficient government and If the Democrats want to win this they can actually take that message and say you know what? We're for more efficient government and the way we're gonna do it is get rid of things like regulatory capture and inside deals and all the other sort of stuff.

It may, you know, that may not kind of go, but there's an opportunity for the Democrats, I think, to really stand up and take the country in the direction that we all as Americans needed to go to, which is to have a sustainable federal government. And that's going to require some degree of fiscal conservatism and action, but they could take a different point of view on how they do it. And they could have core beliefs around that. It's really, and by the way, Dean Phillips, we're inviting back on the program, Ezra Klein, Sam Harris, we want to have some more people on the left come on here and maybe talk about this very issue. It's really three things they could work on. Number one, build 10 million homes in this country that are affordable. That's a really key issue.

Rich people should pay their fair share of taxes and reform the tax code. And then third, healthcare for everyone. Those three would get this party back on track. We're going to make a more efficient government, you're going to be able to buy a home, you're going to get healthcare, and rich people are going to start paying their taxes, which they're not. And we're going to stop with these crazy Trump tax breaks. That would be the perfect positioning. And it's not personal. It's just, hey, we're a rich enough country that people should get health care. Why shouldn't people have health care in the modern world? Why can't these rich people who are donating tens of millions of dollars to Trump

just pay some more taxes and make sure poor people have basic health care? Sayan, your thoughts. And then let's get back to the docket. Well, I disagree with all those points, obviously, but sure, they could run on them. They have tried, they've definitely said we're gonna have healthcare for all. Selling the American dream of home ownership, I actually think is flawed in many ways.

We're putting people into debt, and for things they can't afford, and they get screwed. And so I just actually think they need to find a unifying, figure out who their moderates are. And there's also politically homeless people. We didn't include them. There's these people who are just like, well, I can't vote right and I'm not left either anymore.

So we've got to bridge this divide somehow and they've got to figure out the messaging. But I don't think going back to what they used to do is gonna work because they promised universal healthcare and it hasn't happened. And they had plenty of opportunity to do so. All right, let's get back to the whiz deal and the docket here.

Let's see if there's anything we didn't. Well, I think we should just talk about the, you know, the price they paid and we should talk about how to do that, the strategic rationale and how others are going to respond. All right, so looking at this, the deal got sweetened massively over the year, between when the first offer was made

for 23 billion, and then went up to 32 billion, the revenue roughly doubled since the time of the first offer. And then there's some really interesting things in the details. There's a huge breakup fee, we saw the breakup fee with Adobe and Figma. This one is tremendous. It's 10% of the deal size $3.2 billion in cash, they don't get an investment if this deal doesn't go through. Google has to give whiz $3.2 billion in cash, let that sink in. This company is massively high growth, zero to 100 million in

18 months when they started. And last year, they passed 500 million in ARR. You know, that puts the deal at roughly 60 times their run rate and that is a high price. However, they're supposed to hit a billion in ARR this year, which would put it at 30 times forward looking, or 32 times, which isn't outrageous, because Google probably has, Freeberg, some concept, or alphabet rather, some concept of how they could increase the velocity of that revenue, yeah? Or that it would be a defensive position,

one of those two, yeah? Yeah, I mean, just to put it in context, right? Google's cloud revenue is about 40 billion a year, and Microsoft and Amazon's are both kind of plus or minus, a little bit around 100 billion a year. And so Google has kind of been, as we know, lagging a little bit in the cloud market. The thing about kind of enterprise sales is

there's a common strategy, which is you kind of land with a beachhead and then you kind of expand from there with additional products and services. This has been the reason so many enterprise software companies over time from Oracle to Salesforce to Microsoft have been acquisitive and can make acquisitions very synergistic. What that means is you can acquire a new product or a new service and then sell it into your install base or acquire the customers and then cross-sell your existing products or services into their install base.

And so you can increase the overall revenue by putting the two together and combining sales teams and being able to offer a combined offering. And so the theory here, and I think this is something I don't understand well enough, is that security has become such a kind of top requirement and product category that it now effectively enables a beachhead type model

to be successful, meaning you can cross sell the security into all of your existing customers, or there's enough new customers that Google might be acquiring from the whiz acquisition that they can now bring new GCP services to and cross sell into. Now, to figure out how this actually has to make sense. So Google's ROIC is about 30%. That means that when they make an investment, a CapEx investment or a capital investment,

they expect to see about 30% of incremental profit per year come back at some point from that capital investment. The capital investment they're making here, again, this doesn't hit their income statement, goes on their balance sheet. It gets marked mostly as goodwill. So Google's gonna have a 32 billion move from cash down to goodwill. So now they've got this asset on their balance sheet and they've got to make an incremental

$10 billion a year profit. So you kind of got to do the math $10 billion a year of incremental profit against 40 billion of cloud revenue and against 1 billion of WIS revenue. There's a lot to be kind of built here to make this make financial sense. So then it becomes okay, well, that's a really hard one to kind of think that The reason WIS exists, and Jason mentioned this upfront, is because of the value that it creates in a multi-cloud, multi-tenant environment across Azure and GCP and AWS. And when the deal was done,

one of the things that WIS said is, hey, don't worry, we're not gonna prefer GCP. And it was interesting because I thought, wait, people actually thought that they would just prefer GCP? No, it's the exact opposite of why Google would want this, because now what you have are your tentacles. Like think of any other service that any cloud provider provides where most of your revenue is coming from the other clouds. Can you name one? Well, it didn't exist until now. And so I think the strategic rationale is quite clever, which is you start to gain customer

traction and workloads in all of these other environments. And I suspect that TK is smart enough to try to pull these workloads back into GCP. So that's like, I think probably like- Because they were, you're saying, Shubhap, they would have the data they would be able to see from WIS like, hey, look, 90% of this type of job is existing on Oracle or it's over here on AWS or Azure. Every of you would do that if you're running Google Cloud. Thomas Currian is smart enough

and they're not gonna pay. And David, by the way, the other thing that I would say is, I think this is where bankers get this totally wrong as the observer watching a deal like this is, it's never about the rate of change when you're trying to do a deal. It's always about the rate of change of the rate of change. And the most incredible thing that Wizz had going for itself was that they were basically doubling in months. So the time to double at that scale, you can do any kind of fantastical model

with that kind of raw input. Because when that boundary condition is true and you're trying to de-escalate or scale down or weigh down a model, you're still going to get crazy gargantuan numbers that when you discount them back, gets them to this price. So I mean, congrats to these guys. I would love to find out how does WIZ, because this is, I mean, I'm sure you guys have this question too. How do you build a sales infrastructure that can scale that productively that quickly? That's an incredible thing, you know?

Yeah, I wonder if a lot of people are, I wonder if it's a lot of self-serve. People just sign up and use it. It's gotta be some percentage of it. I mean, I'll tell you our experiences. We had a guy that had to come in and sell it into us. And we had a little bit of a bake-off, and I don't know, maybe we were unique and there's a simpler,

lower scale product that's just more pay-go. Consumption, yeah. Yeah. Who knows? So, yeah, looking at this, I'm curious your take on big VC because the Series A, $100 million round, we don't have the valuation for it. The B was at 1.7 billion a year later, so maybe we assume it was a $500 million valuation for 20%, something like that. I would guess maybe

a 600 million post. Sequoia Insight Index, CyberStarts all did that Series A. When you look at the BCD&E, those same players all participated. This is another example of sometimes your best next investment as a VC firm is the highest growth outlier in your existing portfolio, your thoughts on what this means in terms of venture capital, and maybe the long jam that we saw over the last four years, five years of no M&A. And because we you and I came up when like was a golden era of M&A and then, you know, the IPO market started to open up with Airbnb, Coinbase, and of course, Uber. Now we're sitting here. Hmm, what could if

this is the starters pistol, what could it look like for the VC industry, which has just been dead? Yeah, I'm gonna start with my thoughts on whiz. I think this is really exciting for me, because this is a great example of a contrarian investment. When this investment was initially made, there was not a lot of money going into security. There still isn't. It's an under-invested category. And with AI and the threat of the types of things that people can build and vibe coding and everything in between, you're going to need

better security. And so I'm excited to see that maybe this might become an investable category. I think this is the largest exit ever in the security space. Am I, am I wrong? I mean, I think, I think you're probably correct. Yeah, I can't, I don't think I've ever heard of anything this large M and A wise. Absolutely.

Yeah. So, you know, how does this impact M and A? I mean, it's still pretty slow out there. You know, some actions better than no action, but like Niantic was just bought by Scopely. We're starting to see some- You were an angel investor in that, right? I was.

That was the Pokemon Go folks. I remember you showing me Pokemon Go over a decade ago. Yeah, so- That's amazing. And- That's a Saudi company that bought it? It looks like a Saudi conglomerate. Yeah, that's a Saudi conglomerate. And so that exited for 3.7 billion. And, you know, I think we're going to start seeing some movement, especially with the new administration.

When you start, were you in that deal? How many years were you in? Oh, I gosh, as soon as they spun out an alphabet formed and spun them out as their own entity, I there's a funny story for another time about how I got into the deal. But I realized it was my only opportunity to get in as early as possible. And so I stalked the founder and sat at his door and. Oh, tell us the story. OK, all right. Well, permission, permission granted. You can't say it's a great story. Yeah, it was a great story.

So before Pokemon Go, they had this game called Ingress, and I started playing it with my friends and I started noticing that my friends were doing some really unusual things. They were like charting helicopters and like traveling all over the world to cast these invisible triangles over the earth. Basically, it's a game of green versus blue and who can cast the biggest triangle. I was like, why are these people spending so much time and not only that, but why are they going around taking pictures of points of interest for Google? Like what is Google actually doing with this asset was my number one question. So I realized that Ingress was part of a bigger mapping plan. I mean if you look at the team, you look at John Hanke, they all come from Keyhole and they're obviously part of the

maps team and help build Google Earth. So this wasn't just a game. Pokemon Go was a joke. It was basically an April Fools joke where the founder of Pokemon said, wouldn't it be cool if we put Pokemon on the map and we just tried to find them? And John Henke is like, yeah, let's turn this into an Ingress-like game. I went around telling everybody if I

had a chance to invest in anything, it would be Niantic. And because they were part of Google, I thought there was no chance. And then I got a call one day and they said, hey, my friend of mine was like, did you hear Niantic spun out? I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know anyone at Google. How do I reach John Hanke? And I realized I'd invested in this company called Hentwater and they were giving out game codes on the bottle cap.

And I was setting up her ticketing system one day and helping her out in her office. And I saw all these tickets coming in with the subject line that said Ingress Game Code. And I was like, what is this all about? And I just connected the dots and she introduced me to John Hanke. And then I went there with two engineers

because I figured I got to show out with some value here. Two badass engineers who were players. We sat on the front stairs and basically sat there and said, please take our money. He's like, I don't need you. I've got Nintendo, I've got Google, I've got, and we're like, no, you really need us. And he gave one of those engineers a job offer pretty much that day. He gave me a key card to the office and so I can come and go from Niantic as I please, which is pretty

awesome. But it's just a fun story, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, this is pretty awesome. But it's just a fun story, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, this is what it takes to get in deals in Silicon Valley. All right. The Fed held rate steady on Wednesday. Markets have been digesting this pretty flat. The second consecutive meeting, of course, where the Fed held rates steady. This is after the two consecutive cuts in September, 50 basis points in September,

and then obviously 25 in December. And we had this high hopes that there would be four or five of these cuts this year, and there are apparently none right now. Trump posted on Truth Social that he urged the Fed to cut rates to create a smoother transition for his tariffs. The tariffs are taking place, I believe, on April 2nd is that date date that's going to change the history of the United States forever. And so there were some other interesting takeaways. They lowered expectations on recuts. They expect two quarter point cuts for the rest of 2025. This would take us down to about 4%. Your thoughts, Shema? Let's add some color from Scott Besson. One of the biggest mistakes that I think Janet Yellen affected was this continued issuance of money on the short end of the curve to finance these deficits, which gives you you inherit an incredibly difficult challenge, I think, over the

next nine months. I think there's like nine or 10 trillion that has to get refinanced. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, look, I thought that when rates were low, you're supposed to turn out rates. Exactly. And instead, the Treasury for the past few years has pulled rates in. And I think part of that was to keep rates lower. They changed the issuance schedule when rates moved back up towards 5%. I have maintained that policy but I'm maintaining it

because, let's go back to David's question, when are we going to see the results from this, getting the government spending under control? And I don't think the markets recognize it yet. Okay, translate it for us, Jamal. So he's saying a couple of things. He has inherited a problem that he hasn't quite yet changed. What is that problem? That problem is that when rates are low, you want to borrow for as long as possible, right? You don't want to borrow for the shortest amount of time. And now that rates are high, you're in this difficult position where you have to refinance all of it at a much higher rate. That's effectively the net of it. What I took away, and you can see

more and understand more when you watch this whole interview with Friedberg and I, but I think that there has been a fundamental disconnect and break from the Fed and the rest of Treasury and the government. And I think that Scott was very clear, like he views that as an independent organization and it should continue that way. But it was very clear to me that they are singing from their own hymnbook. And it just doesn't seem to me that Powell really understands the gravity of this situation. And I don't think that he's really willing to play ball. So he's probably on the margins. Again, this is my total interpretation of this. Would rather wait longer than necessary

because I think it's almost like a political gambit. And I think that that's very dangerous. That's again, just my own interpretation. I just do not think that Powell, A, has the data to make a very clear decision and B, will act unless it's totally necessary. So I think there's an overcorrection here that's happening, which I think is dangerous. And I think it's going to slow down the pace of cuts, which I think will then create a lot of other pressure in the economy. Well, Dave, I'll drop it to you. The Fed's mandate as an independent organization is full employment and that 2% target, which we talked about before here, was just a number that was picked by an

economist in New Zealand, of all places. It's not like it's some specific dosage that is perfect, but it is their mandate. They're not supposed to be a political organization. So what are your thoughts on this situation and these high rates, which we have to pay for our debt? We've never been in a situation where in a hundred days, a federal government is setting out to cut their spending by a trillion dollars, which has a significant effect, a recessionary effect on the economy, because there's less federal dollars flowing out, which goes as revenue into various businesses and income

for a lot of people that are employed as contractors or directly by federal government agencies, coupled with, for the first time in 100 years, a significant change in the policy for tariffs for goods flowing into the United States, and whether that will reduce spending by consumers or drive up the cost of products by consumers. And we talked extensively about both of these issues with Besson andnick in DC this week. And if I'm the fed, I don't really have a great proxy historically for saying when this was done in the past, here's what the effect would be on GDP. Here's what the effect would be on inflation.

Here's what the effect is going to be on employment. In fact, folks like Lutnick are making the case that the current measure of GDP is probably not even correct. The way we measure it, the way we count it. And so the traditional economist's point of view on making rate adjustments as a function of economic contraction or growth may be wrong. So I think there are quite a lot of these kind of confounding factors

that the Fed is in a very wait and see mode. What I would look to is the bond market, which also seems to be in a kind of wait and see mode. So remember right before the election, the bond market traded the 10-year up so that rates went down to about 3.65%. About a month ago, the 10-year up so that rates went down to about 3.65%. About a month ago, the 10-year was at 4.5% and today it's at 4.22%. And so in the last month, we've seen rates on the 10-year decline

by about a quarter point or about 30 basis points. And so the bond market is giving some kind of opening to the Fed saying, look, we expect that this is going to be deflationary, this is going to be recessionary. We are expecting you to cut rates to the Fed. And so that's what the bond market is saying. And now I think we're going to start to wait for the reports that are going to start to come out that are going to show the impact. I don't think we're going to know immediately.

So I think the first hundred days of this presidency and this administration's actions are going to be pretty telling on what's going to happen going forward in terms of the effect on employment, on inflation and on GDP, uh, contraction or growth. And then I think the market will know how to handicap those numbers in the future based on actions by the administration Right now we're still in a like I don't know how when you put all these things together or what it does and it's a lot happening real fast And so wait and see Yeah, say and I'm not sure if the Fed and you know, the people in the administration can't communicate the strategy

Perfectly well and the Fed can't communicate the strategy perfectly well, and the Fed can't interpret it. I don't know that we're gonna solve it here, but any thoughts on this? I don't know if they're not communicating it well. Besant did that. It's the effect that it will have ultimately on the economy and over what time scale.

That's what's uncertain right now. Sorry, go ahead, Zane. Well, specifically the tariffs, I mean, if they're on, they're off. To what extent, it doesn't feel like the entire administration is on the same page. That's just, you know, based on everybody I've talked to. The Fed is not part of the administration. Of course not. Yes, they're independent. Yeah. And the quote today in the Wall Street Journal, Nick, you can look for it, is Powell's

statement basically blamed rising inflation in this short-term period on exogenous factors. He said our job was getting the job done and now there's exogenous inflation and I think what he's pointing to are these potential tariffs or something. So I think it's less that they're not coordinated. I think that they are on very different pages and I don't think the Fed wants to play ball. Sorry, Cy. And then I have a story at the end. Just quickly, you know, one of the things that really concerns me is how we've been so high on cheap supply for so long. Like if you look at Shien and Timo before this podcast, I wouldn't looked up that their prices are up by 27% or something like that.

And so when you used to be able to get a garment for $18, you're now paying $37 and Zara is like 75 for an equivalent. And I think people really liked getting packages in the mail and feeling like their dollar went further and it's not going far. And so when you have a bunch of people who can't buy anything, and consumerism is a big part of our, unfortunately, in some ways, our culture, you know, what does that do to our country? You know, if you're looking around, there's urban blight everywhere in retail.

And you know, we can't fill our malls. We don't have brick and mortar stores. They're shutting down. Forever 21 just shut down. These are the types of things that people really care about is whether, especially in a time where you do have a recession, people want to buy a tube of lipstick or a dress to feel better about their life.

And right now they can't even do that. And so that's what concerns me is thinking about the retail future and then you know, the consumer landscape of how this all affects everybody. Yeah, and consumer confidence is not good right now. People are feeling like a little bit concerned about it. And this immigration plays into this was supposed to be deporting 20 million people, maybe it's only going to be a million. Who knows

about that issue? Who's going to be a million, who knows about that issue, who's going to actually work in these factories, are people getting laid off? Or are they not getting laid off? Like there's just a soup of issues here that makes the feds job extremely difficult. So in an extremely difficult, confusing storm, what is the best thing to do when you're driving the storms, just maybe try to keep the car going straight, not hit the brakes or not hit the gas. And that's what they're doing. They're taking a wait and see. And let's see if the administration

can be a little bit crisper, I think, in their delivery of what their plan is, because it does seem chaotic to me. People here might disagree. Chamath, you said you had an anecdote. Well, I kind of disagree with you in one way. I just think the Fed has totally lost a script, and I don't think they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. What should they be doing? What they should be doing is actually observing the fact that there's some very complicated money flows.

The front end of the curve makes no sense. The back end of the curve hasn't gone down long enough. They sat around and they allowed Treasury to basically pump trillions of short-term paper. So they were complicit in what Yellen did. And it's inconceivable that they didn't understand that strategy. And so it's inconceivable.

So that's the past, so what's the future, yeah. So what do you do when you have a, is recalcitrant the right word? You know, like let's just say you just have an organization that refuses to play ball. Again, there was a really interesting anecdote where Besant talked, this is in the interview, you just have an organization that refuses to play ball. Again, there was a really interesting anecdote where Besant talked, this is in the interview,

about how he really wants to deregulate and loosen up bank lending standards, particularly at the community level. And I think that this is one very interesting thing that is a workaround to the Fed, why? Because if you think about where money gets transacted on a 10 to 20 to 30 year duration, those are the big boys. They're making big capital plays, right guys? But where do you play for the two month to two year kind of thing? It's

smaller stuff. It's the stuff that's required to get small businesses off the ground. It's the community lending standards that actually allow communities to thrive. And so I think Scott realizes that if the Fed's not going to really play ball, how do you loosen credit? How do you make sure that that money is available, Jason, to make sure that you can fight off recession? You have to give it to these smaller banks. And he was pretty clear about that.

So I think that that's it's almost as if the Fed is just going to get relegated to this like random organization, like, yeah, they'll control reverse repo, but they just won't have any credibility. And maybe that's not a bad thing, actually, in the end. Freiburg, it's your chance to shine. We have not one, but we have two amazing space stories in Science Corner. First up, SpaceX successfully rescued two astronauts, and when they landed, there were dolphins breaching around. The capsule was absolutely magical to see.

Congratulations to the SpaceX team on that. And then Firefly Aerospace completed its moon mission after achieving the first commercial soft lunar landing. Take it whichever way you want, Freberg. Which one of these do you want to start with? And then maybe we'll open the discussion up to a little bit broader discussion about the moon itself. Freberg SpaceX was able to rescue the two astronauts

that were stranded by the Boeing Starliner debacle nine months ago. We talked about it on the show. You can go back and watch the episode. Episode 192. 192 in August. Episode 192. And so having spent far more on the Starliner program than on the Crew Dragon program, the Starliner program is gone now. It's basically done. And the Crew Dragon program has now done 16 crewed flights to space, 11 for NASA for private commercial flights and continues to perform. So congratulations to the SpaceX team on making it to ISS and bringing the astronauts home.

Another successful mission for SpaceX. You know, there's a lot of hand wringing, oh my God, you know, conflict of interest, Elon with SpaceX and Doge and being close to the administration. When we look at what SpaceX has accomplished, I'm not a shareholder, but I know you are Chamath, I'm not sure if you have folks on the panel.

You are as well, Saiyan. I am as well. Okay, congratulations everybody. But putting aside our personal investments, when you look at how much they reduce the cost, is anybody even close to matching their cost to getting to space? Because this kind of like, great takes out the whole, the whole hand wringing around the conflict of interest with SpaceX, both on Starlink and on this seems ridiculous because their price is so cheap. It makes no sense to even complain about it. We should

just be giving Elon a high five and saying, thanks for charging us such a low rate. It's a great question. Uh, Cyan, you want to take it? Well, you know, obviously Boeing is the big loser here. You've got to, you know, it's interesting to me how bad they just fumbled this. And then there's the political element. I don't know if we want to get into it about how we weren't able to save these astronauts

and they were stuck up there. You know, we were seeing it landing in the water but what you're not seeing is they couldn't walk when they got out and they were only supposed to be there for what, like 10 days? And- Eight days and it ended up eight months or something. Yeah, eight months, which is horrendous because one of the things that I believe that America

stands for is we don't leave people like that. And it's an American issue, not a political one. And so there's no reason why we shouldn't have engaged SpaceX sooner. It was offered and they turned it into a completely political issue and Boeing fumbled the ball. It really will. And so, you know, I think hopefully this is a message that's loud and clear. And one of and they turned it into a completely political issue and Boeing fumbled the ball. Really well said. And so, you know, I think hopefully this is a message that's loud and clear. And one of the things I'm so excited about is

little kids watching this and seeing this and what it means for the future of our country because they're looking up to people like Elon and they're gonna be the next political class in the future and that will matter. You know, this is the equivalent of the moon landing. And to see somebody in private enterprise do what Elon has done is just outstanding. So that's basically my comment on it. Any thoughts on the cost versus conflict of interest, I guess, hand-wringing? Look, there's a couple of startup alternatives. I'll put alternatives in quotes

because they're not really GA, they're not generally available, they're not really launching. They're still in this early experimentation phase. One is Blue Origin and the second is Relativity Space. The problem with both of those two approaches, well the feature of both of those two approaches is theoretically that there's a different economic model there. But the reality is that SpaceX is the only company that has consistently been able to take these costs and just crunch them down to more than one launch a day this year, I think. It's just an incredible scale and pace. So no, there is no economic alternative. They are the absolute cheapest in the market. I'll tell you a very quick story. I was also an investor in relativity. I think I owned about 10% of the company. And I just got recapped out of that business because they needed a lot more money than folks were willing to give it.

And then Eric Schmidt just stepped up and offered, I think, $3 billion to the business. And I kind of said, no, I'm done. I'm out of here. So, you know, recaps are painful. You put all that money in. I think I took like a $380 million loss. It was not a good week two weeks ago. But anyways, that's not the point. The point is SpaceX is the best. There is nobody even close. The next closest alternative is years and years away. Would we benefit from more capacity? Sure. But the reality is they are the only solution and they're safe and they're reliable. And what Saian said is so true. When the hell does

America just abandon people? Why do you do that? Especially in space of all places. Of all places. I mean, that is really dark. You would think this would be a Mark Watney story, like the Martian. Look, you have WNBA players that get put in Russian jail. We're willing to swap them for arms dealers in the last administration. Pretty good insight. Fine. So we didn't abandon her, but then we let these two people flounder.

I just think it's really inexcusable. That makes no sense. There definitely needs to be an investigation into what happened there. A lot of speculation. It doesn't look good. I'm going to take Elon as a word that he offered. I mean, I don't see any reason why he would not offer.

The astronauts even confirmed that he offered. Oh, they did? Okay, yeah. I mean, I know that people were saying like, unconfirmed if the Biden administration assumed. No, it was confirmed. They were like, that's their way of saying, come get me. Please come get me.

They're like, I'm literally withering away in space. Please come get me. They put their thumbs up. Okay, come pick us up. Freeberg, take us to the next story. And then we'll get a wrap here. This is basically what I think is gonna end up being the story over the next couple of years,

is the space race between effectively SpaceX's platform and technology versus China, which has effectively ripped off SpaceX, as this is being described here in this article. You can kind of take a look at the Long March 9 rocket is what they call it, fully reusable first stage powered by 30 of their particular engines, which is comparable to SpaceX's first stage being powered by 33 Raptor engines, also fueled with methane and liquid oxygen,

each with a thrust of about 280 tons compared to the Chinese at 200 tons. This is kind of a very kind of equivalent design. Right, here's a look at it. Yeah, there's the model of the reusable. Yeah, so this is the Long March 9. This is their super heavy lift rocket that they kind of first started talking about

calling a decade ago. The rocket has three stages, solid motors. They've recalibrated the design and it effectively has now kind of become a clone of Starship. And so this whole system is going to be the big race. And as we know, the way the Chinese operate when it comes to kind of industrialization

is they can move fast, they can move big, they can move heavy, they can dedicate resources, they can dedicate an entirely vertically integrated supply chain to achieving an objective. So this will end up being kind of, I think, the big race over the next couple of years. Slave labor. I think they've got a over the next couple of years. Slave labor.

I think they've got a lot of resources at their fingertips. You can kind of say that, but I don't know. You know, a lot of people use slave labor in China as kind of a hand wavy way of describing their competitive advantage. But I think this is really important. China has actually much more of an advantage in automation. And so if you look at many Chinese factories that everyone assumes are cheap because they have cheap slave labor, which is kind

of the Western and general kind of media perception of what goes on over there, there's actually a lot of automation and engineering that's gone into building these systems that allow them to have much higher throughput at much lower cost. And I think that this is a really kind of key point that the Chinese kind of industrial base and their manufacturing base is so superior to the United States in this moment in time, that the US has to figure out a way to build its manufacturing base

up to be competitive in an age of automation, not on a kind of labor to labor system, but on a system of production to system of production basis. And so this is really where we are lagging deeply as a country. And it is part of, you saw JD Vance's speech this week on revitalizing kind of manufacturing in the United States, but it has to be advanced manufacturing. It's not just about opening a warehouse

and putting a bunch of jobs online. Which means robots, not humans in it, because we're- It means both, it means both. But it's about smarter systems, it's about designs on how you do manufacturing. It's about using new things like 3d printing like automation, coupled with great labor coupled with great people working. But it's about designing entirely new ways of

doing manufacturing and we've stalled out over the last three decades in the United States, as we globalized and we handed off all manufacturing to the east decades in the United States, as we globalized and we handed off all manufacturing to the east, and the United States basically just imported manufactured goods while they invested in all of the infrastructure to deliver advanced manufacturing at scale. And so we've got a lot of catching up to do. Otherwise, China will get ahead of us in any product faster than we will ever be able to kind of stay

ahead of the game on. And I think we're seeing that in the space race now. And it's definitely worth taking note that this is kind of stay ahead of the game on. And I think we're seeing that in the space race now. And it's definitely worth taking note that this is kind of one core example of this advantage that they've developed for themselves. I'm concerned about the cultural stuff of this. Like, America is so ill-equipped, especially with this wave of the last eight years of DEI and how it's infiltrated all of our institutions and how we raise our children in this country. Like, we taught them children in this country. Like we taught them that math is racist,

while China is, you know, their kids are, the leaders in AI, you know, deep-seek should show us that, you know, we have underestimated China every step of the way. And I think it's just a tragedy. You know, I'm working on a book that's coming out called The War on Science, which will actually expose, a friend of mine wrote it, it's a collection of essays, exposes just how entrenched this became in every institution from medical science, etc.

Like, how do we recover from that? Is how we can compete with China, because otherwise we can't. You know, I really honestly don't understand how we're going to do it if we don't. And part of it is seeing these space launches. Obviously, the next generation of children will be inspired by that, but we have a gap of about eight to 10 years where we lost that advantage. I mean, in San Francisco, we saw it up close and personal, right? They banned AP math.

I mean, what lunatics could ever, I mean, I guess the lunatics in San Francisco could literally justify that it was, you know, some massive inequality that the smart kids got to take harder courses. Flash the thing, the poll from NBC, Nick. We know who was responsible for it. Are you blaming white women? College educated white women? I'm just saying, look at the data.

Okay. What is going on here? Like. For those of you not watching, it's a voter's opinion. I'm just saying look at the data. Okay. What is going on here? Like, for those of you not watching, it's a voter's opinion. White men, no degree, white men, college degree, white women, no degree, white women, college degree. And yeah, DEI plus 50, 30, no plus 31. Yeah. By the way, for white women in college. Yeah. NBC News probably. Yeah. This is not from, yeah, like a right-leaning organization here. Just to build on what you were saying, it's math that was told was racist in one of the best private schools here in Silicon Valley. They taught the girls,

these are girls in the best all girls private school in Silicon Valley, that reading was racist. all girls private school in Silicon Valley, that reading was racist. Could you imagine? There was a spreadsheet that these kids had to memorize every day that had every other kids pronoun. And if you didn't get it right, you'd get in trouble. Well, not only that, but they are taught that you're either an oppressor or you're oppressed and there's no other option. And so like if you go to one of these private nice schools, then you're automatically an oppressor. So think about that. If you're a kid and you're born bad, inherently bad, evil from birth, what does that do? It's horrible. What does that do? What does that do to your self-worth? Yeah, your desire to actually do anything in society. We have to fix that. I actually think it's one

of the number one issues in our country is to get kids excited about being Americans again. We were talking about the Democrat Party. They don't love America on the far left. They hate America and they're very loud and vocal about it. And so I'm glad that their base is shrinking, but it needs to shrink further. And we need to have more unifying messages.

And I think SpaceX could be one of those unifying messages where we bring people together and we encourage kids to think bigger about the future. I'll tell you one anecdote. I have been hanging out at UT a little bit, the University of Texas and go Longhorns. And I've had three or four people of means, I'll say, you know, people who could afford to go to any

college, ask me, Do you have any hookups at UT? I want to take a tour, I want to check this out. And I'm like, Oh, and they're like, Yeah, I just don't want to send my kids to, you know, these, as Tramont has called them previously on the program, welcome to drosses. I want to send them to the South to be educated in Texas or somewhere, you know, where they're not going to learn to be part of Hamas or, you know, Al Qaeda.

So there you have it folks, send your kids, yeah. And send them to a place that values free speech. Look there first, look at the fire rating, and then that should tell you everything you need to know. It's a huge trend. It's a huge trend that people wanna go to these schools. Getting back on track, I'll just give a quick shout out as well to Firefly, the blue ghost.

Lunar Lander landed on March 2nd, lasted on the lunar surface for 14 days, launched on January 15th. They are launching two additional missions, mission two and Mission 3. Mission 2 is gonna launch in 2026, Back to the Moon 28 for Mission 3, all of which are doing kind of geologic surveying

of the lunar surface. Obviously, the long-term goal here is can we establish a base on the moon, Jason? You're a catfish. Mission 5 is going directly to your dingleberries. They're gonna go land and get those dingleberries. I'm sorry. Those big dingleberries.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Cyan, you shouldn't have heard that. We were just saying. No, that's fine, I don't care. It's our tradition to talk about free bird's anus. I have a 13 year old boy sense of humor, it's fine. You do, you always have actually. Would you guys be willing to go to the moon for a week?

Would that be something you guys would be interested in? I'm going. I talk to my guy. 100%. You got a guy? I'm saying I got a guy. I talked to my guy. He said I could go out with him.

So I'm going. Do you guys have an interest in that? Like, is that something that you'd be motivated to do? 100%. 100%. I am a hundred percent gonna do it when I'm 75. I'm not sure. It's a great question about a week.

A week seems like a very, wow. I would go for a month. What about a day? Like just a lunar day? Like you go there. Like a lunar picnic? Yes, yes. A little picnic and then you come back?

Yeah. What would you bring? What are you gonna bring? You bring a little Chardonnay? What are you thinking would pair well with the dark side of the moon there, Jamal? What are you gonna bring? I'd bring like a-

What should Sean make us when we go? 2020 Lafond, I'd bring like a white burgundy. Got it. Nick, can you make an image of Chamath on the moon drinking wine? Can you figure out a way to do that, please? Thank you. What should we serve on the moon? Would you think we should go with fish?

A little surf and turf? No, no, no. Maybe surf and turf would be good. People don't realize that white burgundy tastes great with meat. I know that people think you should always drink a very heavy red, but it's not true. I just want everybody to know, the more you know. The more you know. Thanks for tuning into the All In Podcast. She's Cyann Bannister. I'm Jay Kal. He's Trimah Pai Hapitiya and of course, your Sultan of Science, David Friedberg. And of course, thanks to CEO John and producer Nick, everybody who puts so much effort into

it. And thanks to our partners for, yeah, supporting the show. We'll see you all next time. Love you guys. Love you, Moen Podcast, Eno. Bye-bye. Love you guys. And we'll see you on Podcast EW. Bye bye. What, what, your winner's right? What, your winner's right? Besties are gone. That's my dog taking notice of your driveway sex. Oh man. My habitat will meet me at once.

We should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cause they're all just useless. It's like this sexual tension that they just need to release somehow. What your beep beep? What your beep beep? What your beep beep? but they just need to release them now.