All There Is with Anderson Cooper - Sheinelle Jones on Grief and Joy

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Today show co-host Sheinelle Jones' husband, Uche Ojeh, died in May 2025 from glioblastoma. Seven months later, she lost her grandmother. She talks with Anderson Cooper about parenting after loss and trying to hold onto joy while grieving Uche and the person she was before his death. For more of “All There Is with Anderson Cooper” visit cnn.com/allthereis. Host: Anderson Cooper Showrunner: Haley Thomas Producers: Emily Williams, Kyra Dahring,  Madeleine Thompson, Grace Walker Video Editor: Eric Zembrzuski Technical Director: Dan Dzula Bookers: Kerry Rubin and Kari Pricher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to all there is. Wherever you are in the world and in your grief, I'm glad you're here. You're not alone. It's been a bittersweet week for me. I finished my last story at 60 minutes after more than 20 years there. I left because I wanted to spend more time with my two little boys, Wyatt and Sebastian, but it's hard to leave a job that you've always loved. The good news is that it makes it easier for me to do more of these podcasts, which I'm grateful for.

My guest on this episode is Chanel Jones. In January, she began hosting along with Jenna Bush-Hager Today with Jenna and Chanel, the fourth hour of the Today Show. In May 2025, Chanel's husband, Uche OJ, died from glioblastoma. They met when they were in college and have three kids, a 16-year-old and 13-year-old twins. Chanel has a new bookout through mom's eyes, which is full of life lessons and stories from the mother's well-known, highly-accomplished people. but our conversation is about the loss of Uche and Chanel's grandmother who died seven months later

at the end of 2025. Thank you for doing this. You have been, and I mean this so sincerely, the soundtrack to my healing. You, along with all the people that you've talked with, when you hear other people share, it is healing and you don't feel as isolated, you feel less alone. And so I feel like you've created this beautiful quilt

of nurturing our hearts, And so I am honored to be part of this quilt. It is still so recent. So recent. And the truth of the matter is, after he was diagnosed, I still thought he would beat it. Like, you couldn't tell me that he wasn't going to beat it. It was just a matter of finding which trial or something. But I knew that he was going to beat it.

Even though all the evidence was very clear, I still didn't believe it. The first time the doctors recommended hospice, I said no. I wanted him to be able to be home. He wanted to be home. And I was like, I'll do it. And he's big. He was strong. And I was trying to do all the things, you know, lifting and all the things.

And we have a lot of stairs. So that became a bit of a challenge. And I did it for maybe two or three months on my own. There are people who do this for years and anyone listening, if you are a caretaker. God bless you. I just did a interview with a woman who has a very aggressive form of brain. cancer and she's trying to prepare her kids. I saw her story.

She's writing letters to her kids for the future. My mom's dad died when she was 15 months old and she had this fantasy her entire life that he had left her some letter somewhere that might arrive in the mail. And I sort of had that fantasy from my dad as well. I tried. I tried. It was the only time things got a little, because if I say, hey, I think you should write something for the kids.

that means that I think you're not going to make it. And there was one point where I said, why don't you write it? And then at our daughter's wedding, we'll read it and we'll show that you're still here. And I think for him to write it would have been accepting that maybe it wasn't going to go that way, his way, and I don't think he was willing to do that.

And I think by the time he was like, okay, maybe, I think it was probably too late. Towards the end, I started videotaping everything, Whereas before I didn't, he also played a lot of instruments. My son plays a lot of instruments. And so he would come in and my son would be playing the guitar. And I would show him playing the guitar and show my husband's face and the pride that he would have when Kain was playing the guitar. Or my daughter's in music theater and she's Matilda, I would come and show him.

And then I would record him being proud. And even now, I have so much that I haven't given them yet because I think it's like in doses. I can only handle so much. So I know that they can only handle so much. I mean, how do you do this with kids? As a mom, it's tough because you don't want to make them sad. I have three teenagers, you know, so we're all in one chat, and there'll be times where I'll be tempted to be like,

oh, my gosh, this crossed my feet. But then I'm worried that, like, what if they're leaving school and they get it or what if they're with their friends, you know? So there's a tap dance as their mom, allowing us all to be vulnerable, and there's a time and a space for us to reflect, and also a time for them to show we can't move on. We can move forward with that.

I think the biggest pain I carry now, and I am not even to a year. The biggest pain I have is not my own. And trust me, like, he's all I've known. I didn't date. I was 19, you know. It's not my pain. It's that I can't fix it.

As a mother, you just want to fix it. Or your kids, you don't want him to hurt. I can't fix this. And I think when he passed, the blow that it was, and the grief and all of it, like, as the mama bear, for me not to be able to fix it, even now, is excruciating. It's excruciating that I can't take that pain away, that they have to learn how to deal with it and wrestle with it and hold it and make it make sense. And so I'm left trying to figure out how to nurture their hearts. There aren't a lot of resources and

conversations and things like this, but it's part of the reason why I'm willing to sit and have this conversation because I couldn't find it. I joked with Savannah that I went to YouTube and googled Black Widow and I got spiders. It was true. I remember I was by myself and I'm like, okay, who's been in this position before? And I knew I had to deal with it publicly. So I was like, okay, who am I going to be? I found videos of Jackie Kennedy. And I remember watching her and being like, oh my God, how did she? She looks like she has so much grace and poise, like how? And then I looked up like Coretta Scott King, and I'm like, every time I close my eyes and I picture those women, they always had such grace. I told my friend that, and he's like, I love DuC, but he was not

Martin Luther King or JFK. And I'm like, I know, but you know what I mean? I was trying to find out who I wanted to be. I think I mentioned it to Maria Shriver, who was like one of my TV aunties, like my Mount Rushmore of aunties. And she said, you can only be you. Can your kids talk about it now? Do you tell stories about him? There are pictures all over the house. have one of those digital picture frames. But you know what's starting to rattle me a little bit is that they're all current pictures within the last couple years of the surfing and the soccer games and the weddings and the holidays and it's beautiful montage. But what's starting to rattle me is that as we move with each passing day, he stays the same. And I know that the kids are

going to get older. And so the frames are there and everything is there. And so the frames are there and and the pictures are there, and right now we're all still the same. But it's hard because it sucks that he didn't get to, it feels like not a fair shot to keep going. So I wrestle with it sometimes, keeping those things out. But then I'm like, no, we're going to keep them out. We're going to keep the pictures up. We're going to still talk about it.

And I had to learn how to parent differently because I'm not him. And he was strict, you know, and I'm like, eh. So I've had to find that. I remember early on I said something like, your dad would not. And then I realized what I was saying. And I don't know. There's no template for this. Should I not have done that?

Your father would have never. Or is it you know better? Your father would have never. I don't know. And so I'm kind of living it in real time, how I want to parent. And there are some things, though, that I can't. And so I've learned to ask for help. I don't know how to play soccer.

Our first vacation was horrible. A woman I met whose husband also at Gleobestum. She warned me, be careful with the first trip after he passes. Maybe bring someone or bring some cousins or something, and I did not listen. It was horrible. They looked at an ocean and there's no one to surf with. So now I've learned. I bring cousins, or bring people. I'm still trying to figure out how to mother.

You know what I was looking forward to? Heartbreak. Like, that was gonna suck. And I was gonna have to be like, have some chocolate, sit down. He's a jerk. Not this kind of heartbreak. And not only are your heart's breaking, but so is mine.

We're going to take a short break. Coming up, I talk with Chanel about the loss of her grandmother, seven months after Uche died. I've been grieving for so long that I don't think I have truly grieved her because then it's too much. Finding a source you can trust for weather forecast should be easy, right? This is CNN meteorologist Derek Van Damme, thrilled to introduce the new CNN weather app. Check your daily forecast to plan your day,

the weekly forecast to see what's on the way, and prepare for any major storm with our robust real-time video coverage. The app is stunning. And if you're a weather nerd like me, you'll love our in-depth stories and the photo of the day. Download the CNN weather app on iOS today. Welcome back to my conversation with Chanel Jones. I was sitting on a beach in Jamaica. And my girlfriend was like, it's okay. to cry. I think it was the first time I had just like really let it go. And I just said, where are you? Like, where are you? Like, are you okay? Where are you? And all of a sudden, and we are in the middle of the ocean. It was like this rock and we took a picture of it. And here comes this yellow

butterfly. And we both went. And we were like, and then it, and she was like, is that you, Uch? And I said, oh my God, stop it. And she was like, no, just if it's you or if it's like anything that, that Chanel needs to know, like, just let her know that you're okay. Can you come back? Asked me, a butterfly is not coming back. And sure enough, and I was like, oh, my God. And to this day, everywhere I go, when I allow myself and I need it, I see one. And I'm like, how you can see a yellow butterfly in Harlem?

I don't know, but I've seen them. So he finds me, and I think it's because I've allowed myself to open my heart to it. You said somewhere that you felt like you've had to keep running. I certainly know that feeling very well, and I've done that for most of my life. Do you feel like you are grieving? I am a walking ball of grief. It's like when I tell you, I hold two things. I know who I want to be.

And so the woman I want to be has joy. The woman I want to be continues to do new things and experience new things. But she's hurting, and her heart is so heavy. And so in order to do that, I guess I'm just going to have to bring it me and carry him both. And I used to feel in the days after he passed and before I returned to work that I was afraid of grief. It was like scary. I wanted it to go away. Get out of my life and go away.

But now I see it differently. I see grief now as like this beautiful stream that I have around me. And so I go to the stream when I want to remember. I go to the stream when I want to reflect. I go to the stream when I want to think about him. think about him and it's peaceful and it loves me back. It holds the things that I love. I choose not to put the pain part in it. I'm still working on that part. I'm sure it will always hurt, but I would like to work on that piece. And so when I tell you that I carry two things and I'm a walking ball of grief,

it doesn't mean that I'm crying all the time. It just means I go to my stream a lot. Do you see joy is the opposite of grief? No. I don't. I think it is all part. of this complicated life that we don't understand. You know, when you grow up in the church and there's an answer for everything, so the answer is faith. And then I got to be 47, and the guy I've been with since I was 19, died.

So then it's like, oh, okay, what do I really believe? What do I really think about this? And so I've had to really dig deep and think about how I wrestle with it. Because frankly, up until this point, you know, it's been pretty great. great. Life's not perfect. But for the most part, I've been able to make it make sense. This is the first thing that I can't really make it make sense. I used to worry that I wouldn't be able to laugh again or I wouldn't have my joy and oh my God, I'm going to cry. But they dance together. My joy is heightened because I know how precious it is to be able to have the good moments. And so something

is funny, it's freaking funny. If something is sad, it's really sad. This for me, even though I'm talking about something that is awful, this is joy for me because it's a beautiful conversation and I hope we can do a lot of good. I talked about not being able to find me, even people of color, young girls of color. Like, there just aren't a lot of, and we hurt too, and I just don't see us. I think culturally we're taught to be the strong ones and the strong women and we're the bedrock. And so as hard as it is for a lot of people to grieve, I realize that I have layers that I didn't even know that I had that make it harder to be vulnerable or to allow myself to have this pain.

There's a cultural thing, there's a generational thing. I looked to my grandmother when she lost my grandpa. They had been married for 69 years, and she's a pillar in Wichita where I grew up and he was. And when things are hard, we be out to dinner. You know what happens after we eat? And I'm like, let's get up. My mom and my grandmother are taking out their lipstick.

They're opening the thing. We're this. We're not. This. Your grandmother just died. Yeah. Didn't see it coming. She was so proud of me.

She was the first woman of color on the school board in my hometown. Tough cookie. She used to smoke. She'd have her long silver hair. She'd have it in a bun. Like, she was that. And I remember one time she had someone to sign a situation in her like 80s or 70s. And I was the only one with her.

And I was holding her nose because it was bleeding. And I remember her looking at me and seeing the fear of my eyes. She stopped cold turkey that day. Never smoked again. She was a classic. trained pianist, born in St. Louis. My grandfather was one of the only African-American physicians in my town, and his father was a physician. So I come from, like, excellence, black excellence, as they call it. And my grandfather ended up being this huge part of our lives. And my grandmother

ran for the school board, and they were just this huge force. And when he died, she didn't even want to go. She was like, no, not going. And then somebody said, go get Chanel. I went in there, and I looked at her and I'm like, you got her. At his service, we were like holding on to each other. And even when Uche passed, she hadn't been on a plane 20 years, but she was there. And there's the picture I have, the last picture, oh my God, it is the last picture. I didn't realize that too right now. The last picture I have of the two of us, she was wiping my face.

Come on. Get it together, you got this. She started a huge choir. It's called a rise. It stands for African-American. Renewing Interest in Spirituals Ensemble. I filmed this video on that. I just want to play a little bit of it.

Oh, you're going to get me doing the ugly cry. I picked an upbeat part. Thanks. And that he has the whole world in his hands. See how she's moving in France? Oh, my God. I used to say, if you can't sing, Joe Brown is going to get it out of you.

Look at her. I love it. Where's my She'd say sing now. Oh. It's gracious. The folks in church are all right now. Oh, Anderson.

That's amazing. That's amazing. That is who I am. I grew up listening to all of those songs and, you know, Negro spirituals, which is what they are. And she used to always tell me the stories of Negro spirituals. When black folks were down, this is what they would sing. They would sing these songs to get themselves back up. And she would say, we come from good stock, honey.

That's what she would say. And so now I am pulling on all of those things that she poured into me. And what I also realized is I grieved Uche for so long. And I'm sure somebody will know if this is a term I don't know, but like I pre-grieved too, because you know it's coming, even though I was in denial. And then I grieved Uche, and so I've been grieving for so long that I don't think I have truly grieved her because then it's too much. Everyone's like, oh, you're so strong, and you're there for your kids and all of the things. And grieving him has been so much. And so with her, I've had to like tuck it just a little bit.

Like I can feel it. But like if I allow myself to truly explore what she means to me, I might have to take a personal day tomorrow. You may not see Jenna and Chanel. But what happens is, do I have my phone? I'm going to share something with you. It's my screen saver on my phone. So when I was at my grandmother's funeral,

I was like, that was when they put her over my grandpa. Wow. It was a cloudy day. It was dark just for that moment. And I was sitting there, and I just happened to have my phone. And then when they put her over him, I was like, and I took a picture of the. the sky and then I put it down.

And now it's been my screensaver ever since. Because this tells me that she's okay. She's okay. She's okay. She's with Grandpa Paul. There's a song that Jenna, your co-host, sent to you. It's called Brighter Days by a Nigerian artist. His name is Blessing Offer.

And I didn't know it then, but he is from the same tribe as my husband. But I was having a really tough time. And I loved it. And so fast forward to me getting the job on Jenna and Chanel, and they surprised me, and they said, hey, the guy that sang that song, we booked him for the show, February 4th, and I went, I said, do you know the significance of that day? And they said, no, I said, that's Uche's birthday.

Then I felt all emotional. And the one thing about Uche, he was proud Nigerian, right? Moved here when he was 14, but, like, proud and was always trying to get these Nigerian artists on the show. And so when he came on and he sang that song, through my tears, it was. It was like, you got them. You got somebody. Just want to play a little brighter days.

How beautiful is that? The part that resonated with me was about love finding you in the dark, because that's when it's hardest, right? Kids are sleeping, shows over, all the things. It's all gone. And at night, you're left with just you. And for me, in the king-sized bed where he's not there, and that to me is the hardest part. And so for love to find me in the dark, it's like, please.

So that song just continues to speak to me in new ways. You wake up really early in the morning to do your show, and you've always had to tiptoe in the dark in the morning so as not to wake up your husband. And you had a realization recently. I could turn the lights on. It was my first day back on the air. I was like, tipping around the dark, and then I was like,

and I remember turning on the lights, and then looking over there, like, Sometimes he would be like, oh, you put the sheet over his head. Yeah. So I'm so torn. And because I'm still new in it, there's a part of me that sees the beauty, and I'm proud of myself for how I'm able to wrap my mind around it. I do see beauty in being able to have these conversations.

I feel like I have been able to get a special key. And the key comes at a cost. and when you have this grief key, it unlocks the door to a club that you're in and that I'm in and others are in. And it allows us to be in the special matrix of, I think, understanding and clarity or at least the recognition that we're in a search for it. And it's just really a beautiful way to live life because it's almost like you have another sense that's built into it. So I think that's a beautiful thing. but if you ask me if I want that key, like at what cost, I'm torn on it. And I'm okay with it for me.

It sucks, but I'm almost 50. So I feel like I'm halfway through. What's hard to hear in that is what my kids now have to carry. Then as a mom, I'm like, oh, I hate that my kids have to deal with that. My little guy said one time we were in the kitchen, my 13-year-old son, he goes, Mommy, I see things as like a BCAD. And I'm like, yeah, that's how. And he goes, no, no, no, before cancer after death.

And I was like, whoa. And I see my life that way too. So I'm trying to learn how to embrace Chanel 2.0. I grieved her. Two days before I went back on the air, I said, okay, I've grieved Uche, I've grieved all the things. I'm going to take two days before I go back on the air to grieve the me that I loved because she's gone. There are parts of me that are still there. The person you were.

Yeah. I liked her. She worked really hard. She drew a picture of herself as a new. lady in fifth grade on a yellow sheet of construction paper with helmet hair and hoop earrings. And you told your grandmother in fifth grade. Yeah. And she was like, oh, I could see you being a reporter. I've worked so hard to get this. And so I had to greet her because she's changed. And so now I am getting to know the new me. And there are parts about her that I think she's a badass.

And I really, I like her. I respect her. But I'm still getting to know. her. I always ask everybody in the podcast, is there something you've learned in your grief that would be helpful for others? I think it's important if you're willing and you certainly don't have to be, but to either share or to do what I did, I would, every day on the train of hospice, I was listening to you. But just something to heal your heart and just not to shut yourself out. It's important not to tuck it. It's so easy to go down this dark grief hole and it's like you can't breathe. My prayer is that this conversation, things like that, will at least just be an oxygen mask.

It can be very lonely. Just know that you're not alone and you're going to be okay. They would want you to be okay. Thank you so much. If you have thoughts you'd like to share about my conversation with Chanel or about your own experiences with grief,

we'd love to hear from you. You can leave a comment at cnn.com slash all there is or leave us a voicemail at 404, 827, 1805. You can watch Chanel at weekdays on the fourth hour of the 109. Today's show, today with Jenna and Chanel. Her new book, Through Mom's Eyes, is available now also. It features life lessons and stories from celebrities' moms that she's interviewed on the Today Show.

On Thursday, May 28th, we'll be bringing you another new episode of the podcast. It's my conversation with actress Mariska Hargate, star of Law and Order SVU. Her mom was a very famous movie star in the 50s and 60s, Jane Mansfield, and she died in a car crash when Mariska was three years old. Mariska was in the car when her mom was killed and has felt the echoes of that loss and grief her whole life. Something has always been missing, and there was always just this incredible sadness. And I remember when I was in grade school, they'd have the mommy daughter tea or something like that. And I used to be so sad when I would look at other little girls that looked like their mom. And it was such a primitive need to look like someone, look like your mom. But also for me, it was the double whammy because as a child, I did always feel separate.

I just did. I was kind of like on this island by myself, my whole life. My conversation with Mirzka Hargate comes out Thursday, May 28th. You can also check out recent episodes of All There is Live, my streaming show, that's a companion to this podcast. If you've never watched it before, it has a lot of very moving interviews with podcast listeners about the losses they've experienced. You can check that out at our grief page CNN.com slash all there is. Thanks for listening.