American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Chris Ramsay: The Alien Zoo Hypothesis

Episode Date: March 22, 2025

Go to https://surfshark.com/americanalchemy for 4 extra months of Surfshark Magician‑turned‑UFO investigator Chris Ramsay exposes the hidden mechanics of the phenomenon. He reveals how memory, perception, and psy‑ops shape eyewitness accounts and seed modern UFO lore. He probes what humans truly encounter — and why our minds act as the first filter for anomalous events. He ties rigorous remote‑viewing research to chaos theory, showing psi accuracy peaks under low‑entropy conditions and UFOs converge on nuclear crises like Fukushima (2011) and Chernobyl (1986). He digs into NASA’s hidden symbolism and occult rituals — from Jack Parsons’ rocketry to covert launch‑patch designs hinting at agendas beyond pure science. He reframes UFOs not as cosmic invaders but as indifferent maintenance AI responding to shifts in collective consciousness. In Ramsay’s view, Earth is a cosmic seed bank overseen by biologic drones — and the greatest mystery lies within our own perception. Chris Ramsay's YouTube Channel "Area 52" ➤ @Area52Investigations -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 01:55 The Magician Perspective 10:03 Remote Viewing 15:12 Open Mindedness 17:40 Government Interest 20:32 Psychic Research 30:11 Entropy 36:34 Human Evolution 45:30 Consciousness 56:48 NASA 01:05:20 Psy Ops & Manipulation 01:21:40 Miracles 01:34:50 Psy Ops 01:48:19 Magic & Scapegoats 01:50:54 Occam's Razor & Skeptics 01:52:44 4chan Whistleblower 02:05:41 Culture of Aliens 02:21:40 Christopher Columbus 02:23:10 Storytelling -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everyone, Jesse here from American Alchemy and... And Chris Ramsey from Canadian Alchemy. We want to give a big thanks to Surf Shark for sponsoring this episode. That's right. I'll tell you more about how Surf Shark can keep you safe online. So stay tuned. Chris, they want to hear from me, man, not you. Oh, right. If you were able to use the type of technology that they are using, you'd be able to bounce around and see an infinite number of exoplanets.

grabbing a plant from here, changing it up a bit, dropping it over here and doing the same with human life. You could just like create like a little black hole around your craft. And you could go through the whole evolution of our entire known universe in an afternoon. It's like hitting the X button when you're playing a video game to like skip past all the cutscenes. It's kind of what they're doing. And so this all feels like this zoo, but not in a way that's like a zoo, but like in a way that's like the preservation of like the seed of life throughout the universe. The vector along which you are making progress is like, what do they want?

What's the culture on the other side of the non-human intelligence? How do they think of us? They just don't care about us. It seems like an AI security system. They're kind of here until something else gets here. Some of us may, by chance, through accident, get to meet the lowest form of their kind of this robotic whatever. Yeah.

And we're like... Oh my, it's God. I'm here with, at this point, my very good friend, Chris Ramsey, who just is one of the most amazing humans I know generally. I think, you know, your former career speaks for itself, your world-class magician. And I think you brought your unique approach to that in that you debunk at times or show how magic is done to the average person. but then I think there's also something kind of very magical about you and you allow for,

you know, the illusion to persist at times. And, uh, and now you've started probably my favorite new, uh, UFO related channel. It has such an interesting angle because I think you are exploring themes around actually connecting with non-human intelligence or exploring what they think and how they think about the world, which is, uh, you know, no pun intended alien, I think, for a lot of people in this topic who are just used to kind of nuts and bolts, crafts, or stories around sightings. And so it's so refreshing. And the world and universe that you build in each show

is just next level. The thoughtfulness that you put into the set and the script and the questions is second to none. So appreciate you being here, man. Thank you. Thank you so much for saying those kind words. I really appreciate it. And it means a lot coming from you,

you know, being someone in the space. I think you're, you know, obviously the ambassador to this topic on the platform. And so it means a lot coming from you. Thank you so much. Well, I don't know. I don't think myself as an ambassador. And I think that's what makes you a good ambassador.

Okay. So I want to talk about your transition from magic to UFOs. Because I think magic gives you such an interesting lens. We were talking last night. You were talking about kind of techniques and hypnotism that you're aware of. And I'm sure that gives you an overlay or a lens through which you view the UFO thing where there's a lot of misdirection. There's a lot of, you know, weird ulterior motives and narratives and stuff. Do you think you have a better eye for those because of your magic background?

You know, on American Alphemy, we're all about exploring big ideas and breakthroughs. So it's fitting that weed partner with a company that takes privacy and freedom just as seriously. Thanks to Surfshark for sponsoring his video, this video. One of the coolest Surf Shark features is the ability to virtually travel. With servers in over 100 countries, you can switch your IP location and unlock extra content libraries or content that's normally geo-restricted. If you're abroad, you can bounce back to your home country's IP so you never miss your favorite shows, no matter where you are. Additionally, public Wi-Fi hotspots like coffee shop. or airports are data gold mines for hackers.

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Try it today at surfshark.com slash American. can alchemy. I think I definitely have a better awareness of them. Doesn't make me immune to them. But the awareness does provide me with a little bit more of a heads up when, you know, when something's happening, I think it's a sixth sense. Naturally, as a magician, you're kind of, the interesting thing is that a lot of people like, like yourself, who are really interested in how things work and methodology, that's what draws a lot of people to becoming a magician because we're interested and methods and how things work and sort of reverse engineering a moment. How do we create this moment? How is that created? Like if you show a magic trick to someone, there's a few different

reactions that someone will have. And depending on their background history, you know, if you obviously do a magic trick to someone, you know, abroad or in a third world country, it might be a different reaction than if I showed someone, you know, in Vegas a magic trick, right? So we all have our own sort of realities that we deal with when we see magic. But some people, will get frustrated because all they care about is how it works, right? It doesn't sit well with them. And although I loved the fiction of it all, part of me is just like, wait a second, I need to know how it works. And so I see a lot of that in you. I see a lot of that in people who do like this investigative journalism in that they're just not satisfied until they understand how it works. And so that's just a big part of magic is when you start observing relationships or moments or even technology, you're constantly in your brain immediately going to, okay, well, how does that function?

How does that, you know, play? Because some people will just be enamored by the actual moment. Other people will be like enamored on the outside, but on the inside. The cogs are just spinning and whirring. and they're like, well, hold on, how does this actually, you know, how is this possible? And then as a magician, you're able to accumulate just a wealth of knowledge through all these books that are available to, you know, magicians that are, that includes psychology, misdirection, showmanship, sleight of hand, all these different elements, hypnosis.

And then so you just keep adding to your tool belt all of these, all these method-building practices And so when you're observing things in the natural world that might not have anything to do with magic, you're automatically relating it back to some psychology or something else. And so naturally with UFO stuff, I think it's just a big puzzle. It's like a big magic trick. Yep. And I'm like, well, what's the mechanism? It's almost the ultimate puzzle. I know very few people who spend a lot of time in it who I think there are local threads where it's like this thing might work like this.

and this pattern matches to this other thing I learned over here and they're uncorrelated sources so that, you know, there's probably something to like, you know, this particular, you know, this, the sulfur coming off of, you know, like, you know, extraterrestrial bodies or whatever, you know, things like that. And you sort of build this, like, this model. But I know very few people who spend a significant amount of time in the topic who have a very internally consistent and comprehensive worldview as to how it works. And so in that sense, I think it's, the ultimate puzzle. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely, it definitely feels that way. And the finding connections, I think it's just another natural ability that our brains have. And then the deeper you go

into being interested in methodology, the more you're inclined to make those connections. And someone like you, you make so many connections because you've accumulated this wealth of knowledge from all these books and all these experiences and the interesting people you've spoken with. that now you and like UAP Gerb, you guys have this amazing ability to find these connections that otherwise I'd be oblivious to, you know what I mean? So it's, you know, for me, you guys, your mind works, behaves a lot like a magician's mind would. But instead of learning about slight of hand, psychology, misdirection and all that, you guys have learned about, you know, the phenomenon. And so that's, that's why I'm just so enamored by what you guys are doing.

because I see myself, you know, in that same realm just with a different topic. Absolutely. Well, when did you start? So the new channel is Area 52. Everybody goes subscribe right now. The way that it got started, I was posting on YouTube. I, you know, had a YouTube channel that dealt with magic and puzzles for a decade. And that was going, you know, fairly well.

And a friend of mine who is a memory champion, Nelson Dulles, very interesting guy. Shout out to Nelson. He's a six-time U.S. memory champ. You know, very left-brained, went to university for physics, teaches, like, computer stuff at university. He's a really genuinely smart, bright, and curious person. And I caught wind of him from, like, this Netflix doc. And I was like, we're like, he remembers things. I was like, I could use that for magic somehow, right?

I want to learn how to do a mind palace. I mean, that would really help me out, perhaps, with a certain trick. And Harry Lorraine, who's this, like, old magician, was a lot of. also like a master at memory work. And so I was like, oh, I need to, you know, befriend this guy and like learn from him. And so I did that. And he taught me, you know, how to memorize a deck of cards in five minutes from a shuffled stack or all these different things. And I started exchanging, you know, how I could pretend to memorize a deck and make it look the exact same. And he was really like fascinated by that. So we'd start catching out, you know, people who were cheating at memory

stuff and got very interesting. And one day, he just slips this by. And he just slips this by. And he's like, yeah, I did this. He's like, do you know what remote viewing is? And I go, yeah, I think I've heard of it. I think, you know, I watched this documentary back in the day with like Soviet psychic spies or something. And he goes, yeah. So I was on this Facebook group of memory and this sort of hedge fund reached out to me. Whoa.

To see if I, if I'd be willing to be trained in remote viewing in order to remote view the stock market for them. No way. Yeah. And so he tells me this. I'm like, what? This sounds like a fan. It sounds like a fiction.

But the head hunter who was hired by the hedge fund to train potential new remote viewers. I ended up meeting. So one of them, his name is Brett Stewart. He also remote views for a living. And like, I guess makes enough money to earn a living. So for me,

I'm like, that's a really interesting. an important thing to say. Like, you know, if remote viewing is real or not, you're like, well, if this guy's really making a living off of remote, that's kind of wild. Yeah.

So it really shifted my perception immediately, but also red flag started popping up because as a magician, I also know, you know, there's so many different factors that factor into this is, you know, obviously confirmation bias and all these other factors. But I had no idea of anything Stargate, SRI, or any of that.

And so I asked him if he could teach me, because they trained him an hour a day for a month before he started doing ARV associative remote viewing. So basically you're not actually remote viewing the upper down of the market. You're remote viewing something, a target unknown to you. And there are two targets actually. And whatever your session is closest to, that image has a relationship like up or down that you don't know about. So that you're not actually removing the stock market and you're never totally. told whether you're right or wrong. So there's no like positive feedback loop or whatever that is.

So anyways, he teaches me this. We start documenting it because I'm like, this could be cool for the channel. You know, it's something I've always been interested in in this sort of space. And we start getting really crazy results, like good results. Like it starts, you're like, whoa, this is, there might be something here. And over and over and over again, it's just not to be ignored. There's just something. It's like the, even the general gestalt of a lot of these viewings were correct, you know, where it's like, oh, it's a building. And then I described, and yeah, sure enough, to building or it's a, you know, a life form or whatever that is. And so start to document this, go through the whole process. And by the end of it, I had created this like whole documentary.

And I was like, I can't put this on my magic channel. This is too wild. Yeah. And I decided to start a new channel, the area 52. and then that just led me down a rabbit hole. So long story, that's how I got into it. That's amazing. Well, I'm so grateful you had that experience

and it bridged you into this new world. I find that interesting because that's my own experience too, which is I became interested in quote unquote, parapsychology before UFOs as well. Because I think once you start to think that physics, you know, and physics is a poor compression of what we're talking about, reality is different than what it seems, then it allows for all sorts of like,

different consensus realities and timelines and, you know, ones possibly involving, you know, extraterrestrials or craft or, you know, non-human intelligence. So, yeah, that's a really interesting bridge. And it's one that I had as well. Okay. So you start the channel in 2023. What is the biggest thing you feel like you've updated on in the world of UFOs since starting? Well, I would say like I always, okay, so I'd entered this space with a with a bit of a bias. I kind of had a centered sort of balanced perspective, but I did want to believe that these things were true. And I knew that about myself. So coming, coming into this, I knew that I had to try my best to put that confirmation bias aside and also give it a skeptic sort of eye. Because otherwise, I'd just be, you know, misled and I didn't want that to happen. I also didn't want to become the Amazing Randy.

You know, where famously, if people think of magic and they think of UFOs, they think of Amazing Randy. He had this show where at first he would give you $10,000 if you proved something paranormal would exist. And by the end of it was a million dollars. It was a million dollars if you could prove anything sort of paranormal or parapsychological or whatever existed. ESP, all these things. and which nobody ever really collected the million dollars. But I always found it unfair watching those shows because even the energy that I'm not, and I'm not saying that anyone that did his show had any ability.

I just thought they got off on the wrong foot. Regardless, I don't think you should approach something with such, you know, intense skepticism. I do think that now it might actually hinder the result somehow. You know, I think that's a possibility. and I just don't want to, I kind of want to leave this space open. So coming into this space, I wanted to have this balanced perspective, never commit to one thing or the other, have my own sort of internal, you know, beliefs, but also be able to set those aside.

And I think once I started doing that, I started unraveling in my own sort of view of reality, what seems to be this link between consciousness and UFOs and remote viewing. And I started putting it together sort of myself with all these cases, everything else. And like for me, I think that's just the most important thing to focus on in the space is this connection. And I'm not talking about psionics specifically, but like also the government's interest in, consciousness is huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is huge.

They are hugely interested in it. That is apparent. Yeah, of course. You know, if you look at what they did with Stargate, it's 20 years, $20 million. That's a lot of resources. It's a lot of time. And you've got to think 20 years, every year they had to go in front of a committee to make sure the budget was approved for the next year.

That's right. And so Joe McMonigle would do that. He'd go into a skiff and do some remote viewing. and they'd come away feeling like, well, yeah, I guess we've got to keep going. Yep. Right? So, I mean, and that's a lot of pressure when you think about that. Because, like, what if you got that session wrong?

Especially for something that would beget such, you know, kind of bizarreo optical scrutiny. Yeah. You'd think that would be the first thing to cut. Of course. The flip of that is like, I'm a skeptic on the outside and I'm saying, well, you know, B2 bomber is like, you know, two billion plus or whatever. So, like, why are you only spending $20 million on the most important? you know, question.

Yeah, that's the beauty of it, because all you need is a pen and paper. Yeah, right. Right. There's no real, why do you even need 20 million? Totally. It's, uh, you know, it's the cheapest form of Intel. Yeah. Um, and what was interesting in 90, I think in 96 was like this dateline thing where they came out and said like, oh, it's, it's not real, like, it's real.

Like, we had this program, but honestly, it never really gave us anything. And the results were whatever. And he says something kind of like, you lied by omission. little bit where he goes something to the effect of we don't we've we never used remote viewing as a credible single source of intel or whatever it was something to that effect but the idea was that you wouldn't use any any mode of intel as a single source exactly it would always have to corroborate something else correct it's always an overlay on top of like other sources and methods. Exactly. And that's, I think, the value in remote viewing for the government. They're not

going to use remote viewing to, you know, find a hostage purely on remote viewing. They're going to give you coordinates of where they think the hostage is. And then they're going to remote view possibly how many guards there are in that building guarding the hostages, you know? So it'll never be like, hey, you know, where's the Holy Grail? And then they go dig up in the desert where the Holy Grail is. They'll always have some other piece of intel, whether it's satellite footage or witness or whatever it is before the remote viewing comes in. And so, you know, I think for how little you're spending, you would be, you would be absolutely stupid not to use it. I've heard many remote viewers talk about it. Like you're viewing a bunch of possible alternative timelines, like almost like the wave

function in physics or whatever. And, uh, you know, it's, yeah, there's some probability that you're going to end up on the one that you have remote viewed or predicted, but you have to take it sort of loosely. And then there's obviously the analytical overlay where you get a download, but you shouldn't necessarily be the one interpreting your download. You know, somebody should be kind of intellectually scrutinizing it. And, you know, it seems like there are all these methods, uh, or failure modes, rather, for it. But there's a woman named Jessica Uttz who ran the American Statistical Society. And she looked at all of the data for Stargate, you know, the Psychic Spy program that ran that you're talking about from the 70s to the 90s.

And she looked at the whole thing. And along with Ray Hyman, who was actually James Randy colleague and fellow skeptic at the University of Oregon. And Utz came out saying if basically she used P value, which I'm sure you're familiar with. It was highly elevated. beyond. She was like if we were to apply this scrutiny to any other field of science, it would be beyond, you know, the P values would be way, you know, less than expected as far as, you know, the probability that you'd get hits this many times. So, yeah, it's fascinating. We sort of look at that. The goalpost shifts. The goal post shifts. And you just say, well, no, you're wrong. The data must be wrong. We have to do another one. You have to do another one. And the other interesting thing that you kind of touched on is like you talked to. You talked to. about James Randy in the world in which parapsychology is true. And there is some sort of mind matter interaction.

We don't live in this perfectly Cartesian dualist, you know, separation of mind matter thing. Inherently, a skeptic coming to the experiment is going to affect the results. And that's why it has to be this almost epistemological paradigm shift, not a scientific paradigm shift, because that involves a priori skepticism. Yeah. And so you, you're going to affect, and it's crazy. And then you end up in this thing where it's like, you can't affect the results as an experimenter. I'm like, but actually you can.

Yeah. But if there is an effect, of course you can. Yeah. So it's this sort of like endless kind of loop. There's a, there's, you know, Princeton had its own parapsychology lab, the paralab. Yep. And they had this global consciousness project or whatever where random event generators were tested. So these sort of binary computers tied to something random in quantum mechanics.

And they would go off at certain moments. So like 9-11 was the biggest spike they've ever seen. Exactly. But they would also go off when Bob John, formerly dean of the engineering school, when he died. And so it was clear in that case, it was the opposite experimental effect where in their mind, Bob John dying was as important as 9-11 or like, you know, somewhat as important. And so it just goes to show, I think, you end up with all this muddiness. Yeah. And it actually, you know, you have to kind of change your paradigm wholesale.

Yeah. Even studying it becomes very difficult in that case, you know. And that's like even if you, again, taking like, you know, the James Randy sort of, because a lot of people are like, well, if those like telepathy tape kids, if those kids are psychic, why don't they just collect a million dollars from James Randy? Like, well, you have to understand that those tests aren't in a vacuum either. Yeah. Like those aren't, those don't live up to any scientific standards. No. they're there they're there's there's there's there's so much personal bias involved

that like that would never be accepted as a fair result absolutely either way absolutely and if if you were to tell like artists you know an electron exists like nobody would like you know argue then I say have you detected an electron and nobody would have detected an electron yeah and then you say like oh your your mind can somehow you know in a statistically significant way uh we don't know how it works, but affect, you know, what's supposed to be a random output, because it's tied to something in quantum mechanics. It's supposed to be random. You'd say, no, that's impossible. But it would, it's just your bias. There's literally nothing about an electron measurement that you are like, you should be higher conviction in than this other thing. Yeah. And so, yeah, I don't know.

I find that, I find that fascinating. Yeah, it is fascinating. And even if you look at Stargate, they had to, so Dr. Edwin May, who was the chief research physicists had to put together a scientific oversight committee for Stargate, right, made up of, like, I think, like a dozen of the best minds in America. Like, you had Dr. Daryl Bem was part of that, renowned parapsychological researcher. And you had Dr. Schwartz, who invented what, the neutrino beam or something. You won a Nobel Prize. You had a doctor was Zimbardo, who is the guy to the Stanford prison experiment. So you had like this, like, who who of scientists, but the main thing that he said was like, there's, there's just one rule. You have to come into this skeptic. We have to. So they together created the kind of protocol in how to measure these P values in these tests. And they had six remote viewers over sort of, you know, data. He has data of six remote viewers over 30 years. You know, this has a lot of data. So they have all of this data with these, you know, with these, you know, with these.

people and they had to like sort of map out how do we effectively test them because it's so there's so many variables to consider when you're drawing you know a building like okay if I have a building and I just draw like the target is a building and I draw just like a rectangle what is that how do you quantify that how do you put that on a number scale well does the building have windows now if you're drawing windows and now the windows right and so like maybe the ratio to a person in the building for the height. So there's all these little tiny factors that they would have to factor in. Because otherwise, confirmation bias could be like, yeah, rectangle, rectangle, it's a building. He got it. Ten on ten. Right. So they really had to be skeptical and be like, look, we have to draw that line,

you know, in a way that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I think, I think, you know, Dr. May wrote together with, you know, other collaborators, over two million words on that, right? And you have all the hits and the It's not like he's only showing you the good results. You have the bad results too, but if you consider the P value and the amount of times they got something right and the high accuracy, it almost makes you think they're cheating sometimes when you look at the results. You're like, how? Yeah. Yeah. No, I've been with McMonagall and experienced it myself where it's like a friend of mine drew like a little spiky thing and it was a pineapple and it's like, and the pineapple was in this manila envelope that McMonigle had brought and you're like, this feels like, like magic. Like, it's insane. What the hell is going on? And this wasn't even McMont- This is McMonagal teaching us the method

in like a 10-minute period. Yeah. So it's so fascinating. I think if you were to audit anybody's kind of day-to-day, you know, experience, they would say they experience all sorts of things like this.

And then I think what something like that needs to turn into mainstream science is you need to be able to put math behind it and you need to make it repeatable, like very repeatable. And I think we don't know how to do either. You know, I think the repeatability is it's still like loose enough where it's not like, you know,

every time I drop this pen, it like it drops to the ground, like you're not like gravity or whatever. And it's hard to put math to it. It's hard to quantify that, yeah. It's hard to quantify it. But it doesn't make it less of a very real and measurable anomaly.

Definitely. That will likely point to a future kind of scientific paradigm because they always do. Yeah. But they are doing interesting things to support, more accurate results. So they're finding ways to enhance the results. And, you know, by doing tests over and over and over and over with the same people, you're able to map out, you know, what works and what doesn't. And really interesting findings. One was, you know, when they originally found these remote viewers, they'd basically reached out to 600 individuals and tested

them, one percent of which turned out to have a significant talent in remote viewing. But these people ranged from all walks of life, but like mental level geniuses. You had, you had Stanford alumni in there. You had intelligence people. You had civilians. And out of all these people, out of 600 people, six people were chosen to have significant talent. Now, six out of 600 doesn't seem like much. That's one percent of the population. That's quite a bit when you think about it. And of a very elite pool to begin with. Correct. Yeah. Well, elite, but it also had like, it had all sorts of people in there at the end. It wasn't just, you know, like super geniuses or anything. It didn't matter.

It was these other factors. And one of those factors was these people, they found out afterwards, all had synesthesia. That's amazing. So these are the original people picked for Stargate. Yes. Wow. Yes. They all had synesthesia.

Yes. For the audience, synesthesia is the kind of entanglement or coupling of senses. So, like, every time you hear a particular note, you know, you see a color. or something like Kanye West, I think, or Farrell have like, or you could smell, you could smell a sound or like, it's the, it's the mixing of senses how your brain interprets two different senses. Those people apparently have pretty, had the, had the best results. Well, there's a woman named Dr. Iya Whitley.

She's a space psychologist, and she works on, with astronauts and fighter pilots for their like sort of space readiness or like high performance environments. but on the side, and maybe this is not on the side, maybe this is related to her core work, she, so babies apparently are all born with synesthesia. Oh, right. And six months in, they lose synesthesia. And so she is working on modalities to help babies and children retain their synesthesia for longer. Because I'm sure you lose all sorts of perceptive awareness in the process,

all of what you're talking about right now, where if there's a correlation between that remote Maybe you come out of the womb with more of these latent abilities. Yep. And you're, you know, also closer to the source kind of, right? You're coming right out of that. And I mean, that is, that is really interesting, especially when you tie it back to these nonverbal autistic children. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, so there is, um, it is interesting to think that, hey, if there's a way to induce synesthesia or to preserve it or to train it. Yeah. or to just nurture it naturally even, that that might lead to better results in these, in a sire sort of sphere. Yes. Another really interesting part is entropy is a big factor in these results as well. The more entropy something has, the more accurate the session is. That's fascinating because there's even a term called centripy in biology, which is,

biological systems, their attraction to order and to non-entropic systems. One of the greatest neuroscientists of our time is a guy named Carl Fristin. He has the free energy principle. And neurons are literally attracted to lower entropy systems. You can randomize signals and make neurons, you know, train them to do things through Pavlovian conditioning because that's seen as punishment for them. So that is, that's just fascinating that, um, that we're sort of attracted to order and then and then maybe you're more likely to view something that is disordered. Yeah. And the reason for that might be also that our brains are kind of hardwired to detect change, right? And so if you look at the Gansfeld's experiments,

for example, you're basically numbing your senses. You're kind of in a sensory deprivation thing due to having like a red light in your face for 10 or 15 minutes, eventually because it hasn't changed at all, your brain perceives it as black. You just won't see it anymore. And then that white noise you're listening to after about 10 or 15 minutes ceases to be heard as well. Because your brain's kind of, it's kind of like if you walk into a room and you can smell something, like in your house, you're like, what does that smell? And a half an hour later, it's gone, you don't smell it anymore. You get used to it. Your brain tends to not detect it if there's no entropy. There's no change.

And so on perhaps a quantum field level, we're also hardwired to detect change, which makes it a lot easier to remote view places that have nuclear energy or bombs or, you know, anything regarding someone's life. Because that apparently has a big entropic sort of correlation as well that the loss of life or the endangerment of life actually allows the remote viewers to have. have a more accurate viewing, which is why like hostage situations or like finding missing children, those things are all really, really easier to remote view. They used to douse target sites with liquid nitrogen. And they would get more accurate results when they did that. Wow. Yeah. That's fascinating because it creates local entropy. Correct. Well, it makes so much, I've always thought there was an interesting angle there with the nuclear stuff, because often with nuclear spills is this woman named Jen Cien and Dreson, Harvard PhD, who documents a lot of

these nuclear disasters and how UFOs show up consistently around the nuclear disaster. So, I mean, there aren't that many at this point, but like the two kind of most staple ones would probably be Fukushima in 2011 and then Chernobyl in the 90s. And in both cases, people see the UFOs come down and seemingly clean up the radiation. And there's all this interesting novel work. in science right now being done. There's a guy named Michael Levin at Tufts. He talks about bioelectric and the bioelectric field of the body

and how basically the electromagnetic field that a biological system is growing up in dictates its morphology in a more fundamental way than what he calls the hardware, which is just the DNA and the proteins. And so you have this software writing,

like this coding going on from the environment itself. And you have to have, to think if a nuke goes off, it totally messes with that. And radiation accelerates evolution. Like if you look at like in Chernobyl now, you have like mutated dogs and frogs and you know, because it's just differential selection plus mutations. So like the more mutations you get, the more, you know, the more, you know, the more. Evolution that happens. Yeah. And then and then on the flip side, you know, you can kind of, you know, stagnate. You put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage

and it doesn't grow properly. Yeah. So there's something about the magnetism. netosphere of the earth that is almost like this perfect petri dish for life. Correct. And if you're like this UFO like monitoring the thing. Yeah. You freak out when like you see, you see this like high entropy spike. Correct. You go.

And then I'm sure like same with our remote viewing. Yeah. And I think that's why we have them in a sense. Like this isn't new. We're kind of rediscovering this perhaps intuitive sense. But perhaps to them, they're hardwired in a way to be way more receptive to that. So they don't have to hang. around maybe maybe they could be on the other side of the universe and they get this entropic spike

and they just know that they got to like boop show up take care of business right and almost like a fail safe yeah and so maybe genetically somehow we inherited that from from you know whatever whatever theory of life you want to you want to put to that but i think that maybe that's just like a fundamental part of also survival yeah you know so if you look at like because obviously extraterrestrials this is like we think of this as like the peak evolution of, you know, of humankind, perhaps, or of a living entity. You become really attached to this quantum field and therefore you can have all these amazing abilities like telepathy and remote viewing and perhaps, you know, by location and all these amazing things, right? But on a lower scale, which would be like us or even our ancestors, we kind of only have that when necessary for. survival. It's like the very bottom of it. But it would probably be used. And Joe McMonigal talks a lot

about that too. It would probably be used to like know where to dig for water or nowhere to set up camp or nowhere not to go at night or you know what what food to eat. Like how did the shaman know not to eat this mushroom or the mushroom told me. Like he had this like intuitive instinct. They wouldn't just eat it and then die and be like, don't eat the mushrooms here. They would know. They would like tell people, no, the plants are speaking to me. And that's kind of how they, and so there is this like sense of, I do think there is a very, very fundamental sigh ability in everybody when it comes to survival. And that's why we experience things like this during high stress environments, because we're triggering something that perhaps allows us to, in some precognitive way,

know what's going to happen a second before it does, before we get hit in the face or shot, or like, so I think we still have that innate ability. But then there are these mutations in people's physiology that allow them to have, you know, access to, you know, these synesthesia properties that allow them to have a little bit more. And I think it's really interesting. And I don't know if whether, you know, the autism thing that we're experiencing, I think you touched on this too, is perhaps related to this, like, what is this? Why are we seeing more of these cases now? Is this just some type of weird evolution? Or is this, you know, is this bad? Is this good? It's just interesting.

Oh, it's so fascinating. And I think our world now, you know, is kind of an anomaly compared to the past where we have sanitization. We have safety. but really, you know, we were constantly under duress, stress, and, you know, there's sort of prey and predators and safety concerns constantly in the past. And especially, you know, evolution occurs along, you know, a couple of different tracks. You have individual selection, sexual selection, but you also have group selection. And often in a group, you have a person who is selected for who might not be selected for on an individual level. And they're selected for more if the group is under duress. So geniuses are often asexual.

They're not super social. You know, they're maladaptive in all these other ways. And if you talk to Joseph Bingmonigal, you know, remote viewer number one, he'll say that shamans in the past were often very sickly. And, you know, on an individual level, not the most vital or likely to kind of, you know, move their genes forward. But really selected for by the group because they led the group into, I mean, it's. They were fed.

They were brought medicine because they would also provide that service to the rest of the group, which is like these precognitive things or these readings. It's totally adaptive to get these downloads that where if the whole world is sort of a search space, like it's like what is the likelihood you're going to come up with the vine that's DMT rich and the, you know, MAO inhibitor or whatever. that needs to come from some different epistemic pathway than like trial and error Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours. It does. And if that exists at all, it's going to be selected for in those paradigms or contexts when you're sort of in the dark and you're like with a little clan of people. And I think that just exists sort of less. And the other kind of mental model to have around it is that maybe we are ported into these low level senses, a la Plato. Like we are in a case.

And, you know, Plato would say, don't trust your senses. There's a higher world of kind of, you know, ideas and kind of platonic ideals up here. Yes. You know, that supersede the world of forms. And when you see these kids, these nonverbal autistic kids in the telepathy tapes, remote view, they need to be situated in their bodies. Which if you think of like a VR headset, you need to like see your hands. And then you're like in it. You're like, okay, I'm good.

I'm in the VR thing. I'm ported in. and if you if you don't you're still like in some other kind of liminal realm yeah and being in that liminal realm might give you more access to the primordial stuff to that different epistemic circuit where you get the downloads and that that feels like them they're disembodied in some ways but they're connected to like more primordial you know knowledge as well what is up alchemist if you're interested in joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive never before seen episodes of American Alchemy,

like my walk-and-talk with Danny Sheehan on who exactly killed JFK, or a remote viewing debate between Hal Put Off and Eric Weinstein. Then please join our WAP community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new WOP. I also hosted a discussion

between the infamous Jack Sarfotti and former American Alchemist Science Bob McGuire. Head over to Wop.com slash Jesse Michaels, Michaels with no way to become a member today. That's Wop.com slash J-E-S-E-M-C-H-E-L-S. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of today's episode. Kind of like, yeah, these are like the avatars that we sort of inhibit, and they can function autonomously.

Yep. They don't need, like our bodies, I don't think need the consciousness to survive. I think that you have a brain for that and you have, you know, a heart for that and a stomach for that. The consciousness is kind of what's driving everything. but I do think like on a survival basis, like we jump back to using the physicalness to help us sort of, you know, navigate this planet. But yeah, definitely that's, you know, why we get these quote unquote downloads through meditation, through astral projection, through dreams. These are all states that you don't need your body for.

And, you know, your body is, I think your brain, you know, uses time and uses all these things to help it survive. But I think that we're getting to a point in our evolution where survival isn't like an imminent factor in our daily lives. We live very – I'm not speaking for everyone, obviously, but in the Western world, we live very comfortably. And so because of that, now it seems like perhaps these innate abilities that come from, you know, a higher consciousness are now seeming to – to present themselves a little bit more, perhaps because of this comfort, we're allowing ourselves to leave our bodies now. We don't have to babysit the physical body anymore. And we're kind of, oh, you know, experimenting with these DMTs and these everything else to try and, you know, get what's out there in a more meaningful way and in a less stress-induced

environment. I think, like, because, you know, you hear these Jake Barbers say like, oh, you know, it's stress inoculation and like you got to be under high stress for this thing to happen. And I'm like, I think yes, I think that's probably a way of doing it. And of course, like, you probably get some results. But I think it's really important that we work perhaps towards a way of achieving that through other emotional states. Because I think it might be, you know, might take a lot more work and a lot more studying at less instant results like than zapping someone and telling them, what do you see? you know, is maybe meditating for a year, you know, an hour every day for a year and seeing what happens then, you know, or trying, you know, I'm not saying trying drugs, but like, you know,

experimenting safely with these other alternative psychedelics to see if there's something there. I think, you know, I think definitely we should be leaning a little bit more into that than leaning into the fear side of it. That's just intuitively what I think, you know, it might help you survive But I don't think it really helps you connect. Yeah. You know, in a meaningful way. Yeah. So if UFOs show up, you know, in high entropy systems where it's like they have to restore

the order around kind of radiation or nuclear spills, I feel like another pattern, again, in the UFO world where it's so hard to find actually patterns. It's so confusing is they seem to show up around people in particular states of consciousness. And we were at a party the other night and some friends of my friends. brought up this Hyperion sci-fi trilogy or something. I might be botching this. But in it, apparently, according to them, we're like, you know, flames that like, like little nodes that light up.

And like a moth to a flame, they see when people reach certain levels of consciousness. Do you think that the UFOs sort of exist in that, in that way where, you know, it's sort of high entropy with, you know, trying to clean up the nuclear spills, but then also they are attracted to people who seem like they are lighting up consciousness-wise? Yeah, I think that could be the case. And I don't want to generalize because I also do think we might not be dealing with one entity here. Yep. And so there could be a plethora of outcomes here and reasons why we're being visited or or you know we could have been conditioned and manipulated genetically to do that so it's no surprise to them they're not coming from that far they're just kind of like oh finally they're

they're doing the thing um you know i often think it's it's interesting but i often think that like you know we we place ourselves in kind of the center of our own universe obviously from our perspective And we do assume that there is life out there. You'd be an idiot not to assume that there is intelligent life in this universe other than us, I think. However, if you were able to use the type of technology that they are using, which is seemingly almost instantaneous travel through time and space, like these warping of gravity and manipulating of space time where they can just appear and disappear. you'd be able to bounce around and see an infinite number of exoplanets, right? And if you consider that we are, where we're going right now, our human trajectory is showing us that we have people like Elon Musk, who want to get past this barrier and preserve life by spreading our seed onto other planets in the solar system and eventually out into the galaxy.

If that is our goal for humanity, you know, I'd like to pitch, I'd like to fast forward that. And I'd think it's pretty depressing that we end up just constantly living underground elsewhere. Because even all of these exoplanets, there's never going to be the perfect gravity or the perfect radiation levels or carbon dioxide or there's always going to be something that's going to kill you, right? Because you're just, you didn't grow there. And so you're constantly be wearing suits or living in a bubble. And it just doesn't seem like a really good way to preserve your species. And so I think that if you were able to bounce around the universe and find all these exoplanets, it would be a lot easier and make way more sense if we were to find the native life that already inhabited these planets and simply manipulate our genetic code into theirs so that way we could live there. maybe not me personally, but my ancestors or something.

And so we'd start jumping around the universe instantly to maybe 100,000 exoplanets, all at the same time. And then grabbing a plant from here, changing it up a bit, dropping it over here and doing the same with human life or whatever type of life you find there. And experimenting, perhaps on this planet, we're going to insert a little bit more of this consciousness attracting. you know, genetic system into a lizard and see how that turns out. And then do that with apes and then do that with birds or, you know, and try all these different things out. And then every thousand years pop back and introduce agriculture or irrigation systems or metallurgy or religion and language and just kind of like see how these things are all seeding and how they're all, you know, sort of growing together.

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And you could just, yeah, you could just like tune your craft to like a higher density or something and just create like an essential little black hole around your craft. And fast forward a thousand years. Yeah. So essentially, you could go through. the whole evolution of our entire known universe and the seating of it in an afternoon, you know? Like, it wouldn't change anything. If you don't have any loved ones at home waiting for you and you're just in a craft locally, then time is of no consequence. Like what happens on the

outside of that craft doesn't change what happens on the inside. So why wouldn't you just do something fast forward, keep doing it fast forward? And literally like, you know, it's like hitting the X button when you're when you're playing a video game to like you know skip past all the all the cutscenes it's kind of what they're doing I think why wouldn't you do it that way why would you wait sounds so weird if you can manipulate time yeah and so it just I just think that like and then you hear these high mesheds and like the galactic federation they're here to stop our nukes we hear that all the time we catch some of them picking up samples and putting them on their ships through these and so this all feels like this this zoo but not in a way that's like a zoo but like in a way

that's like the preservation of like the seed of life throughout the universe yeah i kind of i kind of feel like that's what we're that's what's happening like if you look at all the signs no it's so i mean like Elon musk always says we have to preserve the tiny candle flickering in the darkness of human consciousness but then you think about i actually at one time i had the very great honor of meeting Werner Herzog. Wow. He spent a lot of time with Elon. And he was like, you know, a great German documentarian.

Yeah, great narrator. Amazing narrator. Amazing. In fact, when I met him, his son went to college with me and introduced me to, to Werner. And I was like, how was Simon, you know, his son? And he goes, oh, Simon, you know, injured his hat. Like in his, like, typical German, I'm going to botch it. But he starts narrating his son's like, you know,

basically like he cut off his bicycle and when he came to the ground his hand was broken yes yes and he kept going super descriptive in that monotone like like grizzly man style like and his finger feeling the pain of his hand he couldn't go yeah yeah yeah it's like oh I hope he feels better imagine him reading your bedtime stories at night eh it's wild him or Morgan Freeman Exactly. Exactly. So I spent a little bit of time with him. And he was like, you know, I think he really admired Elon. They spent some time together. But he was like, what are you going to do on Mars? Like you're going to like put yourself in a telephone booth, an oxygenated telephone booth? Like he was like, this isn't realistic. This is crazy. Not only from the standpoint of, you know, I always point out as I'm sure you do and others in the UFO world that like the chemical combustion thing is a fool's errand. Like literally like using like. physics, as we know, like Newtonian laws, doesn't make any sense. Just if you look at biological life time scales to get to the next level. Even this idea of the Kardashev scale is, you know, you have, you know, single planet, you know, species.

You have a multi-planet species, multi-solar system species, multi-galaxy species. It's all couched under that species' ability to harness energy. Harness energy. Can you harness the energy of your planet? Can you harness the energy, you know, Dyson sphere of the sun or what? whatever, that itself is probably extremely limited by our frameworks. Yes. And so it's probably something way more like consciousness.

If there is any separation between soul and body, it's obviously adaptive to not, like, be stuck in like a meat suit if you're traveling elsewhere. Correct. Yeah. And I think the other thing that you said that I find very fascinating is like, you know, there could be a whole plethora of things going on. If you admit that there are, you know, one faction of aliens, the answer. is probably not one at that point.

It's kind of zero to infinity. Yes. You know? The likelihood that there is just one species that's reached you is much lower than like, again, it's either zero. The Fermi paradox is like it somehow is a paradox or much more than that. It's everything. Yeah, it's a lot.

Yeah. What's the thing in Star Trek? It's called like the first protocol or what is the? The prime directive. The prime directive. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that has some truth to it as well.

Oh, for sure. Like where they're waiting for us to get to a certain point. And it's like I find if I were this like omnipotent ruling being who was able to create life and generate consciousness within these complex life forms and sort of am intelligent enough to manipulate all of this and to watch it grow and to like be the cedar of life throughout the universe, seeing Elon build these, you know, gas propelled sort of ships and trying to make it to like this desolate dead. planet to make to seed life. I'd be like, aw, cute, right? It's kind of like when I watch a crow use a stick to get

his food. Right? Or I'm like, you're on the right track, buddy. Yeah. You're doing it. Yeah. Good job. You know, you're so cute and smart. Yeah. But I do think like anything we can think of is probably already been thought of in the universe and in the grand

scale of where information lives. I don't think we're making anything new. And so, you know, all of this, all of this whole process of trying, I think is cute. But I ultimately think that if that's the goal, then someone had already achieved it in the universe. You know, it's like if this world were to disappear tomorrow, we'd come up with the same math formulas if a new one appeared. Yeah. Like, so where does that come from? Right.

Information isn't a cloud. It's all around us. It's sort of omnipresent. And so we're not really inventing anything. We're just kind of just rediscovering things all the time. And if that's true, then fast forward at all. And it probably already exists. And so therefore, you know, we're probably already being observed by these things.

And then, you know, and they're just kind of like, oh, that's nice what they're doing. And then maybe when somebody lights up along the vector they care about, the consciousness thing, they take note. Yes. And they take an interest. Yeah. Speaking of the Elon thing, you know, there are all these rumors. You did an amazing piece on Chris Blood, so I recommend everybody check out. Thank you.

This guy in North Carolina, he had some very anomalous experiences involving beings in a craft, and he started to get visited by all these higher-ups at NASA and the CIA. What do you make of these rumors that NASA is more than meets the eye? And that actually the history of rocketry is much stranger than we think. You have like stories of Jack Parsons, the founder of the American Rocket program saying, you know, basically implying he was in touch with other intelligence along with Chikovsky, the Russian equivalent Werner von Braun, was definitely very trippy guy. And I think if you rewind even more so, you get into the Nazis infatuation with the

occult as well, right? And where did a lot of those Nazis end up? You know, through paperclip and through running our space programs. Yeah, exactly. Running our space programs and overcast as well, right? And so like, Lord knows, where those people are. Yeah. So in other, in other, you know,

denominations and de facto of the government. But, you know, so you have to think that, like, that was some type of weird tradition that those sort of Nazis were doing back in the day. First,

they were kind of already, and then, like, rewind further back, you know, and the further you go back, the more that this stuff becomes really, really relevant.

And it just, I don't think it just ever went away. You know, I don't think, this is new that like NASA is doing this. Yeah. So what do you make it? Do you believe like Diana Pesolka, you know, wrote some amazing books on UFO.

She's a religious studies professor. She talks about second century Latin being written. Yeah. Like old Latin. Old Latin. I think on the rocket. The rockets. Like the faring or something.

What do you, what do you make of that? Yeah. I looked into a lot of those patches actually, which was really interesting. Like they have these launch patches, these mission patches at NRO. And a lot of them are just kind of morale boosters. And, you know, I was even trying to figure out, like, who's designing these? And for the main part, it's the crew. The crew are the ones that are in charge of what the patches are and the missions are. So sometimes you'll see little Easter eggs in those patches with, like, crew initials and that type of thing. And then other times, yeah, you'll see,

like, kind of more esoteric or occult, you know, depictions. Yeah. You do an amazing. and like in each almost all of your episodes you do like a patch review yeah the the earlier ones yeah we do we do a lot of those yeah and they're fantastic and some of them are so strange like the the devil you know is is you know the devil you know is better than the devil you don't or something and it's like why are you writing this or like you know yeah you're talking about misty echo which i think you tweeted you know on the uh i think it was an area 51 yeah patch it's so and it's like an egg with a lady inside blowing flying and you're You ask the question, are you just totally messing with us? And it's like this hilarious inside joke? Or is there something to it? I think it's both. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think it's both.

I think sometimes it's one, sometimes it's the other, sometimes it's more. But, you know, if you listen to Diana Pesolk, and she talks about this a lot about the ritualistic sort of performative rituals that they do prior to launching, like wearing the same type of clothes. or standing in a certain spot or eating a certain food or whatever that is. There's like these minor rituals. And I think the way that she kind of puts it is that the math on rocket launching, it has to be so accurate.

Like the physics on it and everything has to line up so almost divinely. Because if there's a hair off of any one of these components and all of these compartmentalized components, by the way, like when you're working, This isn't just UFOs. When you're working at a rocket company, you're compartmentalized. You're not, you don't know what part this goes to. You just have to make it do the one thing they're asking. It'd be much easier if they could tell you what it's for, but they don't, right?

So all of these things have to line up that's so precise, like, no deviation. Yep. And so they think that, well, why not also line that up, the spiritual? Yeah, yeah. And so part of me understands that. Like if you're working with stuff that's so precise, lives are in danger a lot of times. You know what I mean? And a lot of money is on the line and a lot of pressure and a lot of stress.

Like, you know, I don't see the difference between that and praying. Oh, yeah. No. So I do think there is like this divine alignment that they, now the question is, is there a data set that shows a significant. difference. Yeah. Well, I think both of us would say the data set is just parapsychology or something. It's like the random event generator stuff. Like your mind and its orientation has any impact on reality.

Right. Exactly. So doing these rituals probably amplifies that positive outlook towards the outcome and thus maybe collapses the wave function in that, you know, particular way. So, you know, there might be something to it. I do think everything is balanced. And, you know, there was an interesting thing that Bledso said, that Chris Bledsoe said, that he was told as well as that, like, they were like, why do our rockets get shot? Like, they're not getting launched out there. And he asked, are there weapons on them? And they said, yeah. And he goes, that's why.

That's why it's not working. They don't want it to work. That's what he said. So, you know, I don't know whether there's any truth to that. Yeah. But I think maybe the, you know, intention is obviously a very important factor in SIE. Yeah. And I think in life.

And outcomes in life. Correct. And so if the intent is to harm, defend or attack regardless, yeah, I think that maybe you would need to, you know, sort of align yourself elsewhere. so that it happens. Yeah. You have to balance it out. So like align yourself with bad factions to make it work. Possibly.

Who knows? Interesting. Yeah. It's really fascinating. I mean, even you can watch like, you know, countdown to launch about SpaceX. And Gwen Shotwell, who's the CEO of SpaceX, who basically runs it at this point.

She's like, I wear my special shoes, you know, for launch or whatever. Like, like, everybody in that world does. have a ritual. And Jack Parsons actually read this book called The Golden Bow by J.G. Frazier, this 19th century anthropologist. And that book involves hermetic magical rituals among indigenous tribes. And they engage in two forms of magic, homeopathic magic and sympathetic magic. Homeopathic magic, I'm sure you're somewhat familiar with these concepts, you know, is like, I believe, the likeness of, you know, an object you're trying to affect. So it's like a voodoo doll. or something. And sympathetic magic is like, you know, hair, teeth, and nails, like, literally, like, stuff from the thing you're trying to affect. So all of this seems like kind of this, you know, weird witchcraft or whatever. But J.G. Frazier, this anthropologist, notices that when these tribes encounter kind of enlightenment, skepticism, and thought, the rituals lose their power. Right. And Jack Parsons read that book and he came out saying, I believe that science.

is a form of magic. Magic is not a form of science, which you being a magician, I don't know, I don't know how you feel about that, because we've gone back and forth on, you know, and you're like, you know, there are all sorts of things that seem like sort of totally remarkable and you're like, yeah, but like I could tell you how to do that. And then there are other things where you're like, but given the right circumstances for a magician, like magicians are more likely to encounter sort of miracles as well. Yeah. So like, how do you reconcile? That's so fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, no, I am kind of torn on that because on one hand, I do believe that everything can be explained prosaically as a magician. That is my job to deconstruct something. So my job is to make the impossible seem real, right? And it's a very strange and hard thing to do. So, you know, for instance, we would start with the effect, which is the moment of a astonishment the spectator would feel and and then work backwards from there, right? So what the

effect is? Let's say, okay, you want the effect to be 100 people seeing a UFO appear in the sky. Okay. So the method that I'm thinking, like there's so many methods that I can go back to is, okay, there's technology. Obviously, we can involve some type of like hologram technology. We can amplify that using probably sound as well, even like some type of vibration. We can then amplify that. We can probably mask some of that as well if it was nighttime, right? Obviously, you can get away with a lot more at night. Maybe in the middle of the night, if we wake these people up, they'll be a little bit more susceptible to using their imagination and being in like this dream state. You know, perhaps these people as well are more inclined to believe something like this. Before we get into it, let's survey

the area and try to find people who would be more inclined to believe in something like this. You know, so when you start deconstructing things as a magician, you can create the reality, right? You create the framework for what they believe is real. Yeah. And that's what SIEOP is, too. It's the exact same thing. That's literally where my mind went. It's like, if you were perpetrating a siop in this area, you'd look for like these specific traits around like high impressionability. Yeah. Like, oh, this person's like just really susceptible to sort of being tricked. Yeah. And then like, But also like really good like communicator or something. Yeah. Or you might also, you might also like for for months ahead, you know, be dropping little hints here and there around town.

You know, how somebody said, I saw it's weird light the other night. Or have this newspaper article, you know, that or a horoscope that says, hey, you're going to see something in the sky. And like all these things that you can just plant, you know, psychologically to prime the moment of astonishment. So when you hear of a story like, you know, Fatima, you know, Portugal. Like 1917, you know, these three orphans get this sort of, you know, prophecy that, you know, the Virgin Mary is going to come. And then these lights in the sky appear among like 100 plus people or whatever. Do you, does your mind immediately go to SIOP or does it go to maybe something happened or you just don't know? I don't always think SIOP. Yeah. I think that we sciop ourselves sometimes, right? Using imagination and what we want to see. Now, again, I think everything can have a prosaic explanation. I don't believe that the prosaic explanation is what happened. But everything can have a prosaic explanation.

So that's why, you know, when I see people like Mick West debunking things, I'm like, yeah, I can do that too. Totally. Everybody can do that. It's as a magician, I know a ton of methods. Yeah. More methods than Mick West knows. I can guarantee you to trick the eye. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And to trick the senses. Yeah. It's, you know, I've been studying it for a very long time. So yes, it's not hard to fake anything. Yeah. Period. But what we have to look at is, is that what's happening? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, you know, in some cases, I think it might be. And in some cases, I think it might not be. I think the prosaic explanation in some cases is just a flying saucer. Yeah. I think that's the, you know, maybe it's not an angel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because in that case, that would be the prosaic explanation. If you think it's an angel, it's actually nuts and bolts.

Yeah. It's less romantic. It's not that, you know. And so depending on your paradigm, like that, you know, your view of prosaic changes as well. But, you know, that specific case is really interesting because there were so many witnesses. And some witnesses were on camera saying what they saw. So it does sound like an object. Yeah.

You know, but there is a absolute difference between these prophetic messages from this lady. and this round whizzing rainbow-colored object darting around the sky and then eventually went back to the sun or whatever, looking like the sun. This is two different things. Yeah. You know, I'm not seeing the same thing. You know, if it was a lady darting around the sky like this,

then I'd be like, all right, that's, you know, kind of like the same thing here we're talking about, but it's not. You know, we're talking about some type of figure that came to these, And now we're talking about this erratic physical object in the sky, right? Are they correlated? Perhaps, you know? And like maybe this is like a blood so thing where, you know, there was some extraterrestrial stuff.

Then there was like this prophetic imagery and this presence of a female entity. I don't know. You know, I don't know. There's just not enough data there to, I would love to, you know, interview some of those people. But even then, you know, memory is completely fallible and is the worst piece of evidence. It is the most compelling for me because I love hearing people's experience. And I think, you know, looking them in the eye, you can tell if someone's being truthful. But what that truth is, I think is subjective.

You know, again, as a magician, our job is not only to fool you using visual senses or auditory senses or touch or smell. or anything, but also we fool you using memory. We engineer memory. And that is a big, that is a big sort of secret that most magicians, you know, they're, I guess, kind of aware of it. They just don't kind of give it any thought. Yeah. But the engineering of memory is very important to an experience.

And so what a magician will do. And again, like it sounds like I'm talking about sci-op, by the way. And I want to preface that, like, it is almost one and the same thing. But it's, if you were on a moral scale, sciop would be over here and a magic trick would be over here. So like we're using the same techniques. That moment of astonishment you feel when seeing a magic trick, if you were to put that on a negative scale,

that would be a sciop. Right. Right. So we're using the same methodology, but we're using it for noble purposes of entertainment only. Yeah. For instance, as an example, if I handed you something and say,

have a look at this, have a look. Yeah. It's very, very important that you have a look at that, okay. Yeah.

All right. I'll take that back. Okay. Okay. So here's what we'll do. I want you to imagine this ring, just kind of disappearing. Okay.

All right. Wow. So ring's gone. Gone. What's over here? So in your mind as a spectator, yeah. This is very important,

right? Because I said, this is important. Hold this in your hand. It's important. You feel it in your hand, right? Yeah. And then I kind of go, and so, and now I relax. And so this moment is, this is a false, false transfer, we call it, right?

Where it's like, it looks like I'm bringing it over here, but it's still over here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've practiced actually putting it in my hand a thousand times so that, you know, I could just get it to a point where it looks like I, looks like I'm handling it, but I'm not actually handling it, right? But that moment was so nothing. That was a nothing moment. Yeah, yeah.

This here, this is a nothing. You're not going to remember that. And I de-emphasized it in my head because you said, look at it. This is important. That's important. And then I put no emphasis on this. And I put all the emphasis here. Yeah, yeah.

All the emphasis is over here. Yep. Right? None of it was on here on this moment. Yeah. Right. And if I did this and kept staring at this hand, you would be suspicious. So it's everything leads you over here and this is nothing.

Yeah. And so later, when you immediately recall what happened, this is a very basic simple example. I could give you a better example eventually, but just right now, if you were to recall, you know, what happened immediately to someone else, you would say, I saw the ring, I held the ring, I saw him put it in his hand. And when he opened his hand, it was gone. And that's not what happened. Right. So there's like, there's like a small lapse in a small little detail that you didn't pick up on. Is that he had it in one hand and he put it into his other hand. He didn't just take it back and it was gone.

Right? But that little moment, that non-moment is not going to be shelved by your brain. Your brain has other things to do. It's not going to start remembering all the useless shit. Well, and it's sort of adaptive to, like, not be hypervigilant about those things. Yeah, because I told you it wasn't. You only have, like, limited space or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think we have unlimited space, but you're trained to just not store. Yeah, because you'd go insane. Yeah. You know, if you were to remember every mundane detail of your day. 100%. And there's some autistic people that can. and they're almost insane. Yeah, there's like, yeah, like Kim Peak.

Kim Peak, correct. The weather. The rain man. July 27th, 1519 or what, you know, like a friend of mine wrote up an algorithm for that, by the way, that I learned, that I committed to memory. I don't do it anymore because, yeah, I've got to practice it. Whoa. Yeah.

There's an actual, like, algorithm you can go through in your head to figure out what day you were born. As a magician, he wrote a book on that, you know? That's fascinating. Yeah, we're always using, like, these interesting cases to try and figure out how to, like, turn it into a magic trick, right? It's just more methods. We love methods. Psychology, all this stuff, we love it, we collect it

to create the illusion. Because the illusion is never one thing. It's a group of many things. And that's what makes a well-rounded sci-op or illusion is this well-roundedness. So in this case, you're taking these two really important things. The

emphasis of me here and the emphasis of you holding a physical object. Together, now it's impossible. Yeah. You know, and now you're saying, it's sleeves or it's this. So if I would have rolled up my sleeves, you've been like, whoa, and now you're kind of like, no answer. And so you're left, I guess it's impossible. I guess it's an anomaly.

I guess it's UFOs, right? So this is the same mindset that experiencers have versus someone who sees a magic trick. It's the exact same thing that happens. Now, this isn't to say that what experiencers are seeing or feeling or experiencing isn't real. And it isn't to say what they're saying happened didn't happen. I'm saying there is a lapse in memory instantly after an experience. And an experiencer and someone seeing a magic trick is very, very similar. When you see a magic trick and you want to explain what happened and magicians know this,

we do this at gigs. If we're performing, we'll stick around and we'll like just eavesdrop on someone explaining to someone else what that magic trick, what I just did. And immediately they're saying something so crazy, so impossible. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm literally Jesus now. Like, and I'm doing these mirror. I'm like, I didn't do that.

That was crazy, you know? But I'm getting paid. I'm like, all right, whatever. But the truth is that they're embellishing for two reasons. And none of which are like nefarious. None of them are malicious or anything. They're not, they don't want to purposely deceive people or lie to people. But there's two reasons they do that.

One is because they don't want. you to think that they are dumb. They don't want you to think that you didn't consider all the variables, right? So they'll invent variables because they know deep down that that was impossible. Yeah. But even though they didn't check my sleeves, they'll be like, no, his sleeves were rolled up. That's fascinating because I want you to get to number two, but the amount of UFO experiences I've heard actually downplay the experience. So like retrace the, um, you or there's like a public version and a private version where like the public version's like, I saw a thing. I don't know what it is. Could have been fake. And then they say in private and they're like, it answered all these questions for me.

I was conflicted beforehand. Did it telepathically spoke to me? Couldn't say that part on air or whatever, you know? Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. And there might be another reason for that too. There is the reason like people don't want to be judged. Sure. You know what I mean? So they will like Betty and Barney Hill, for example, telling the Air Force one story and then telling the psychologist and other story. Same story, different details. One of them was more numbers, you know, distance. size, speed, and the other one was more like, no, I felt this, you know, and so there is that too to consider. But the second reason would be, you want people to feel what you felt. And it's a very human thing to want. We want to self-express, but that self-expression means we want people to experience what we're trying to express to them. And there's no way of actually doing that. And

And there's an even, there's even less of a way of doing that if you just convey the data. Right. So if I tell you, oh, he handed me a ring to look at. He took it back in one hand and put it back and then put it in his other hand. And when his other hand opened it was gone, you would say, yeah, but it was in the other hand. Right. So now there's like, now there's like, it's too mundane. It's not magical.

And it doesn't convey what you felt when I made that ring disappear. Yeah. It's almost honest on the details, but more. dishonest on your subjective experience. Correct. And so by doing that because you want, you don't want the other person to necessarily believe you, you want them to feel what you felt. Yeah. And so sometimes we'll round off the edges. We'll erode the truth a little bit. Not enough for me to call you a liar, but enough to where if you were to put this on paper, it would actually matter. It would actually affect and skew the data. Yep. And we don't, again,

we do that subconsciously. Yes. And I see it all. all the time with magic. It's innocent with magic because it's like whatever. It's just a, it's not as important as a is an experience, but yeah. Yeah. Often like the Carl Young's synchronicity thing is like it actually doesn't matter what the underlying event is that much. Like it doesn't have to be some perfect synchronicity. The meaning you place on it matters. Correct. And so if you like place a specific meaning on this thing that leads you to this other thing and it's kind of, you're being led to this like lower entropy, you know, like some destination that you're supposed to arrive at It feels like a teleology, this meaningful direction.

Then, like, that's all that matters. Yeah. And that actually, it doesn't matter if you saw the flying sass or didn't see the flying sower. Yeah, because what you're trying to communicate isn't fact. What you're trying to communicate is emotion. Mm-hmm. You're trying desperately to communicate your emotion by using words. And so, of course, things will be lost in translation because, you know, if you could,

if you could communicate something to them and put a little music on, you know what I mean? That would probably actually help you put them in. in your position a little bit more and make them feel what you felt because that's what we're trying to do a lot of times when we experience things. And when experiences are saying what they felt, you hear the sort of like the fear. But there are, I know that there are details that they're unaware of. And it's not because they're doing it on purpose, but it's human nature. And so as a magician, I know that that's something I have to also observe, but I know that I also can't be completely contingent on that being the whole experience. It's like I can't, I can't, you know, discount what I'm hearing either.

Yep. But you do have to, I think, practice a certain discernment when listening to stories like this. It is the same when people tell me about a trick that a magician showed them, which always happens. You're like, oh, I had this magician once. He did this, this, and this. I know exactly what trick they're referring to. Yeah. When they give me those details, right?

And I, so I know, I find it cool as a magician because I'm like, oh, he did a good job because this person clearly doesn't remember all the other things the magician did. Yeah. Right. So that memory had been successfully engineered and impregnated in this person's psyche. But you sidestep the most trippy part of the question, which is that miracles, in your opinion, you've told this to me offline. The second part.

That miracles seem to happen more around magicians. Yes. Magicians who, if they're intellectually honest, would not be self-described as Jesus-like characters, would just be practitioners of things. that are explainable in the materialist paradigm. Correct. But you are saying miracles occur more around these people. Yeah.

And it's interesting enough that Russell Targ actually mentioned this too, that like in his younger days, he was a stage magician and would experience actual miracles during those moments on stage. Russell Targ ran the CIA Psychic Spy program Stargate. He was one of the founders along with Hal Put-off. That's right. But magicians today, ironically, are the most disillusioned and disenchanted. people because we're aware of methods, because we're aware of how things function, most magicians

end up being like atheists or like Penn and Teller famously, who are good friends of The Amazing Randy, we're all atheists, you know, still are. And a lot of magicians are. And they take pride in that, right? Because it's like they have the answers now. So there's no actual magic left. And I was part of that for a long time too, where I thought I knew everything and everything out of psychological explanation for it. But then sometimes, and I started noticing this, miracles would happen. Okay. If you know any magician out there, if you're listening and you have a friend who's a magician or maybe an online magician that you know, just reach out to them and ask them to tell you about a miracle that happened. I guarantee you they're going to go through about a

dozen in their mind before they before they give you like an answer. And it'll be an impossible thing. You'll think there's no way that that happened. So these things happen for, I think, multiple reasons. One, ironically, magicians are the closest to actual magic without realizing it. Like, we are so close to real magic because every day when we perform,

A, we play with odds. So if you think of random number generator, right, these are odds on this quantum field, whatever, these possibilities. We play with them. And we have something, magicians have something called outs. Okay, these are, so if I go into a magic trick and I mess it up, you don't know because I have an out. And that out still gives you a magical effect. So you're none the wiser. You think that was the trick all along, that everything that happened, magician and trouble was part of the act, right? And if I'm a good magician, I can make it look that way. And so it looks like I'm fumbled, but I recovered. And you're like, oh, he just fumbled on purpose, you know, because that's a, that's a thing we do too. So sometimes we like to, and I say we, I speak for myself, but I know other magicians do this too. We take chances we shouldn't be taking. And sometimes, sometimes, sometimes.

for whatever reason, we don't have an out for something and we go for it anyways. And it's, it's, I describe it as a stupid confidence. It's a blind confidence that makes no sense. It's not a, I hope this goes well. It's just do it. Like something comes over you. Yeah. And you just go with it.

And it's high stress environment. Yeah. It's a lot of, there's no out. So you know that, you know, there's no out. is there something you can think of now? Yeah. What is that? There's plenty.

One really good example, I was in Bermuda with some friends, magician friends of mine. We were at a bar. There was a group of people. We were kind of shuffling cars to each other. People were like, oh, yeah, you guys magic or whatever. So started doing some magic to this group of people.

So this girl, I take her phone, and I'm going to guess her pin code to her phone, right? Guess. So at this point, I have her phone on the bar. She, you know, she'd give me her phone and put on the bar. And I already know her passcode at this point. I won't tell you how I know that. But I've figured out a way to have that piece of personal information without her knowledge. So now as a magician, my presenting mind of what makes a good magician is using that information and theatrically revealing it somehow.

to create the effect, right? So I have the information. I could just go, punch it in and she go, wow, and that'd be it, right? Not a really great trick. I mean, it's great, but it's not, you know, could be better. It's a presentation.

So I have this number. I put her phone down the bar. Now, at this point, in my head, when I do these tricks, especially this one, I always look at the number and then I can cold read a little bit, right? So, you know, let's say it's,

let's say it's like all ones. right? I could, for instance, say, oh, you seem like a person who's like got a lot to do in a hurry and you need to get into your phone really fast. You probably text and drive as well, don't you? So I can deem all these things just from 1-1-1-1-1. And also, like, if it was 9-9-99,

I know that you're probably left-handed. Right? So there's all these like little tells that you can get once you have the information. And like, even if you're wrong, it's like, you're like, no, okay. You kind of play it off. whatever, it's cold reading, it doesn't matter, but it can add to the effect again. So, you know, you do this once you have the information, you kind of play around with this and act sort of psychic or whatever. And she placed her phone down to the bar. It's four numbers. And I really, I do this for this specific reason. Sometimes I just ad lib. I don't know where I'm going with this. And I'll just, I'll just be like, let's try this. Because I know that if it does work, it'll be a freaking miracle.

And if it doesn't, then I'll just put the code in myself and it'll still, that'll be my out. It's fine. Yeah, yeah, yes. And so I go, you're not going to open your phone. I stupid confidence. I said, you're not going to open your phone. He is. And I point to the bartender.

And I said, he's going to open your phone. And she's like, no way. You know, and he's like, all right, cool. I'm in, you know? And so I go, all right, put in four random numbers, see if the phone opens. And he puts in four and it doesn't open. We call us an offbeat. I go, that would have been a miracle.

You know what I mean? And everybody laughs because they're like The suspense was like Oh my God And it doesn't work I'm like of course it doesn't work That'd be ludicrous

To think that that would work I'm like maybe it has to be more of a personal number So I said put in your birthday And he puts in his birthday And the phone opens What? So now

I got to play a cool Right? Because I'm the magician And I made this happen This was the trick all along For them right But for me, I'm screaming like a little child on the inside because I'm like, holy shit, this is a real miracle. And these people don't even know.

Like they know, but they don't know. And so instinctively, because I knew what the numbers were, it was like 0212 or something or something like that. It was like a birthday. Yeah, yeah. And so doing this long enough to recognize birthdays. And I could, you know, I could tell her her star sign at this point. I could do all these different things because I have that information now. Yeah.

But I go. But that's a one in 365 chance for him. Yes. No, even more. Even way more. Because I pointed to someone. Yeah.

And they're four number, you know, permutations that don't even involve. Yeah. It could have been this way too. It could have been a month day or day month. Oh my God. Right?

And it could have been six digit passcode on his phone. Yeah. So here's the thing. I said, I said to her, I go, I gave her her birthday. Mm-hmm.

And I said, you guys are born in the same day. And they're freaking out. And not only are they born in the same day. They both have a four code password, and they both use the same password on their phones. You were purely going on instinct. Yep. That's insane.

Yeah, he also had that password on his phone. That's wild. Yeah. So I'm here trying to take... If you could figure out hers, did you not figure out his and then line them up? So, no, I didn't know what his. You didn't speak to him at all. It was just like you brought him in at the end.

The idea was, if he got it wrong, I would see. what he's punching in and I would know his birthday and I would know his star sign so I would use that later on. Okay. Got it. Interesting. That's funny. Yeah. I'm just, I'm doing some recon stuff at the same time. And then the third attempt you would get hurt because you knew it. Yeah, third attempt, I would perhaps if I wanted to establish some connection and say, hey, I said you were going to open the phone. So here's what I want you to do. Maybe here, hold my hand and I'm just going to try and channel something that's in your mind. And now I put the passcode in so it looks like I'm channeling it through him. You know, I could do that. I don't know. I'm thinking out loud right now.

But these are like options that I can always play with in variables that I can manipulate to make the effect seem bigger than it actually is. And that's the magician's job of being an entertainer. I want to entertain these people. So doing this where he punches his birthday in and they, and it opens and that's also the passcode to his phone. And like now there's this like weird. Now there is the birthday paradox.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but like in a room of 25 people, two people will share. the same birthday. Interesting. Yeah. It's a mathematical paradox. Is that a paradox or is that just a likelihood? It's a paradox. Yeah, it makes no sense that it's a likelihood.

Yeah. One in 25 would not. I think it's one in 25. Let me be sure before I. Why is that a paradox? Why is that more likely than not? That's why it's a paradox. But how can you even study?

Like, how could one know that? Like, they just randomly sampled a bunch of rooms or something, a bunch of times. I would guess, yeah. I'm trying to bring it up right now in chat GPT to make sure I'm saying what's correct here. Birthday paradox refers to the surprising probability. Oh, here it is. That in a group of just 23 people, there is a 50% chance that at least two of them share the same birthday. This counterintuitive result comes from the probability theory and the way that combinations work. So it is expected through some, through probability theory. Yes, through probability theory. But it seems beyond chance. Yes, it seems beyond chance, correct. So with 57 people, there's a 99% match.

Wow. Right? So there is that to factor in as well. Sure. But then you had to factor in that I pointed to this guy. But then I pointed to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't ask who shares the same birthday here.

No. You know, so there's all these extra things in that a lot of times what will happen is people don't realize the miracles because the magician. and I can't say, I had no idea this guy would have the same birthday because now I don't look like a magician anymore. So I have to play it cool. Yeah. And magicians have those stories. So many of them. Every one of them.

Ask a really interesting thing. Ask any magician you know to tell you an actual miracle. And he will tell you a miracle. And the chances are that the conditions are similar. So I've surveyed probably 100 magicians. I have all their answers. I've written them all down. It's really interesting.

And I also asked them, Like what are the conditions? So what time, what point of the performance did this happen? Mm-hmm. Were you, did you have an out? Mm-hmm. And did you build rapport with these people? And a lot of times is the condition is later when you're feeling in the zone,

kind of like tuned in almost where nothing can go wrong. Yeah. You feel like you're walking on water. You're flowing. Yeah. exactly you're in a flow state uh two is there is no out so there can be an out but the out's not going to be great yeah yeah you know that like it's not a decent out it's almost like with um sigh or remote viewing like the survival instinct yes like you don't really have a backup there's

no plan B you and you have to stupidly stupid confidence like something has to come over you yeah and you just go with it knowing that you feel this confidence in this like flow yeah and nothing can go wrong and everything's going to go right, you know. Yeah. If you have a doubt, it's probably you're going to have to jump back to some weird out. But if there's no doubt, you just do it. Yeah. And it worked.

Like, that's where it works. Yeah. And so like the, yeah, the third part is that, um, this rapport. So a lot of times, I mean, I've done this trick probably. I have a, I'll show you a trick after. Okay. I don't want to spoil it. Okay.

But I'll show you a trick. Can we do it on air? Yeah, we can do it on air. We didn't have to do it. now. We can do it at the end. Sure. Why don't we do that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Given all of this amazing experience that you have, what do you think is you don't have to call anybody out, but they're obviously, obviously UFOs are sort of, you know, full of siops everywhere.

Do you think there is one or two in particular as far as the emphasis? Like your, you know, your example of the ring where it's like, I'm not really thinking about the transfer of the ring from one hand to the other I had been focused on it when you told me to focus on it. Is there something like that with UFOs where it's like focus on the tip of the iceberg when the tip of the iceberg looks nothing like the rest of the iceberg where there's some redirect or shift in attention? Yeah, by whom are you? I don't know. I'm asking you like do you have an intuitive sense that there's a deliberate attempt to shift attention in any directions. Again, not not not going after anybody in particular, but like just narrative wise. And if not, no worries, you know. No, I 100% think it's a possibility.

The problem with this type of illusion or siop or whatever you want to call it is that there's no way of proving or disproving unless you have somebody actually say it. And even then, you don't know. if that's just part of the illusion. Yep. So just much like a magic trick, I don't know the outcome. Yep. So I can't tell you if it's deliberate. Yeah, but you're more likely than the average person to see a magic trick and be like,

I see what he did. He like emphasized this thing and he didn't this other than. Because of pattern recognition and understanding the trick. Yep. But that's not to say that I can't be fooled. Yeah. You know, as a magician, I'm still capable of being fooled because I still, abide by the same sense as everyone else does and those senses can be manipulated and if you're

performing to a magician you do certain things that the magician would expect you to do so you counter that you know so if i do a trick and i'm wearing a thumb tip you know like a fake thumb and i'm doing some slight of hand a less knowledgeable magician or maybe even a more knowledgeable layman might think that the thumb tip has something to do with the method, but I can use it as a red herring to throw you off the scent. Have you spotted anything like this in UFO world? So, yeah, yes, but I can't be sure because I don't know what the outcome is. Yep. Anything, you know, again, maybe speaking in, uh, at whatever level of granularity you feel comfortable with, do you, can you talk about like how you spotted, you know, anything in particular? I mean, a lot of it is, um,

I would say the things that come to mind to me are when people talk about their experiences. I think for me it raises a lot of red flags in the words they choose to use and also the frequency at which this story has been told and how it's been molded over time. Yeah. And people get that. People in euphology pick that up too. They're very smart. Yeah. They watch all these videos and they go, oh, he didn't say that before. Yeah.

And that's correct. And so like those things I think have to be noted. But also noted should be if you never change your story at all. Are you cognizant now that people are aware of you changing your story might make you look like you're not telling the truth? So you're purposely not changing the story. Like these are and again, it's impossible to prove. Totally. You could see somebody getting a little detail wrong and being like, I don't know if I got that right on the spot.

And then it's this game of telephone where you have to force fit like the next, you know, telling of that story. Yeah. to you like the version that you told the first time around or whatever. Yeah. And you're probably more likely, like let's say, let's take the Rua Zimbabwe experience, for example. Those children all kind of drew similar things, but they were all different. And the stories all varied slightly.

I think for me, that is more believable. Yeah, of course. Than everyone telling the exact same story sounds like a script. Or you were brainwashed or something. Yeah. Something was orchestrated. Yeah, no, because that's like any memory. Yeah, but you would say these.

kid's stories doesn't line up so it's not true intuitively yeah sure right but i think if you know how memory actually works correct you would say oh there is there's a there there's something that happened totally that that they're all talking about a similar thing with their perspectives and their memories i also think if to some extent you know seek and you shall find like what you're open to in terms of you know your aperture like you're you're what you see in the possibility space of what you can experience in life. If that in any way dictates what you actually do experience in life, a la magicians experiencing possibly more miracles, then there's a weird way in which some people who are higher on the openness scale and they experience these things, I think it's actually

somewhat blazze. It's like this normal experience because like they live in this paradigm where like other beings exist or whatever. And then you are sort of in certain cases like, it's like go on this podcast or do a documentary or whatever and it's like say your thing and then they have to like be like okay like this is what happened then the eyes were all buggy and the blah blah and they have to like get into this character when in fact it was this like kind of hermetically sealed thing that's just like affected them a lot like on a but it was like deeply personal and i could see there being cognitive dissonance around around that where it's like well i have to like tell it in this way that's de facto an argument for the thing having happened when in fact like they experienced it and it's

actually it felt very banal and a part of their life maybe maybe banal is not the right word because it was like sort of mystical and sacred but like of course it would happen because they're open to it like that's that's their orientation yeah i don't know yeah i mean it's it's absolute possibility like i mean that's that's something again i just can't you can't disprove and you can't discount Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, knowing methodry doesn't mean that that method was inherently used. And that's what I keep coming back to is that, like, everything is possible as a magician. Everything is possible.

Yep. But because I can give you an explanation for it, that doesn't mean that that's what happened. Yep. And I think that's the difference between, like, someone like James Randy and I. Yeah, yeah. Whereas, like, if, or McWest. Just because you can come. up with an explanation does not mean it's always the explanation. And you can come up with an

explanation. That's the other thing is like as a magician, that's my job. I have to come up with a way that this works no matter what. Like when you watch, you know, certain magicians on television, most people aren't aware that there is a team of consultants that are like this brain trust of magicians that are gathered from the four corners of the world to come up with the most impossible magic tricks and work with the magician on camera to teach them or help them or guide them into creating the best possible illusion for the audience at home. And this goes back in time to every magician. Like we consult each other. We talk. I go to magic conventions every year where there's thousands of magicians and we talk about secrets and we help each other with justifications

and subtleties and all this stuff. So, you know, I just think that, like, people just aren't aware of how much work goes into a lot of illusions. Yeah. Like, it's a stupid amount of work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's stupid amount of information that we have to, like, retain in order to create these illusions.

But it's not impossible. Yeah. You can do anything. Yeah. You can, you can look at Copfield. You walk through the wall of China. You can make the Statue of Liberty disappear. You know what I mean?

You can do that. Yeah. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he actually made the Statue of Liberty Disappear. It means that that's what it looked like. He made it look exactly the same way. I can make it look like I'm psychic. Yep. You know, I can convince someone that I'm psychic.

That doesn't make me psychic. Right. And it doesn't make Joseph McModigal a magician. Correct. You know? Yes. And so it's this, yeah, it's so fascinating. It's so fascinating learning from you and talking to you about like some of these tricks where I'm like, if I were to see them,

I'd be like, how can you ever orchestrate them? And obviously, I would know on some level that they were fake, but I'm like, this is a, you know, let's try something here. Okay, let's do it. You have a six digit pass code or a four digit pass code? Six. All right. Put a random six numbers end.

Any random six numbers. Yeah. Okay. And I should remember what. No, no, just just random. Yeah, random. Didn't work. Yeah.

Yes. Again, that would have been a miracle. That would have been insane. You're right? Yeah. At an end of the episode, I would have been like, you're welcome. Right? as if it was just screaming on the inside.

I would have cut everything else and that would have just, you know, YouTube short. Let's put in your pass code. I'll put it this way so nobody sees it. See if that works. Okay. Didn't work. Yeah. Okay.

Think of someone close to you. Okay. Month, day, and year. Their birthday. Okay. Who are you thinking of? Can you say it? My dad.

Put his birthday in. Okay. Go ahead. Dude, what? Are you serious? How the fuck did you do that? I didn't do it, you did it. That's insane.

But how would you change it live? It doesn't make any sense. You can't change your fucking thing live. So what do you, what do you think about right now? Methods? Yeah. Yeah. What's the method you're wrong with?

I mean, it's got to be, you've got to be able to change it live. Okay. And even so. Oh, you mean change it after I found out that you were thinking of your dad? Yeah. But I already had my phone out before I asked you to think of someone. I know. So, like, how would you do that?

I don't know. Maybe that's impossible. But then how would you, then you would have to, like, suggest, you'd have to, like, use suggestion to, like, get me to pick my dad. And then somehow I have to know his birthday, which is that doesn't make sense. Yeah, this is really hard. Can you just tell me now? Is this one of the times where you didn't have it out and you just went for it and like we could have cut this if like you had failed? Okay, so you knew what you were doing.

Yeah. But you see how that can look that way? Totally. I can't figure it. I need to, I'm going to think about this a lot. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Someone with lower moral standards might tell you that that was actually psychic. Yeah. That's the ethical line that magicians have to walk. Totally. And that some magicians, and I won't say names, I choose to ignore. That's whack. Yeah, it is super whack. Yeah, yeah.

But I love it in the context of entertainment. And I will always let you know, like a magician is the most honest profession because they promise they're going to lie and then they do. Yeah. Can you say how you did it or now? No. I did it very well. I'm going to be thinking about this a lot. Yeah.

I'm really curious about it's so fascinating. Yeah. Think of your passcode. Okay. I already know a lot of information about you. So, you know, they could think at home that I might, I might have seen you put your passcode in or something. And that might be true.

Mm-hmm. But, you know, you're definitely someone who is on the go a lot. You're definitely someone who maybe is on their phone when they shouldn't be. Oh, sure. Yeah. All the time. You got to get into your phone. quick you're pretty jet set guy.

So we're not talking about a very complicated phone password. You're also right-handed. I can tell here. So my guess is that it's happening. Dude, what the fuck? That's, I'm changing it right after this. We release this shit. I hope it's not your pin code to your bank as well.

That's nuts, dude. You just cold read me. You would like ping off my like registering of what you're saying? No. What? I just made it look that way. Dude. That's magic.

That's really great. Once you already have the information, you can do all the performative stuff you want. But it doesn't make it less interesting, I think. You'd be a good spy, man. Yeah. John Mulholland. Yeah. CIA trainer.

Train the CIA and deceptive practices and subterfuge in the 50s. And wrote a manual on it. John D. He was the magician in Queen Elizabeth's court. And he was a magician, but also. he would sort of, he'd blurt the lines and say he was communicating with angels through like anachian, you know, magic. Who knows? You know, it's always like, where do you tow the line? I mean, there's religious figures in history that have done magic tricks too. Totally. Well, you know, there's this philosopher René Gerard, who's this, you know, French anthropologist at Stanford. And he's sort of this kind of somewhat heretical figure, but he had a cult-like following. And he would talk about kind of pagan scapegoating cycles of these kind of magical figures. These figures. These figures. who would, they would sort of use magic. And so because of that, because of their like use of like the seemingly paranormal, you know, society would have ailments and they would blame it on

these scapegoats because they seemed sort of like larger than life or whatever. And then sort of come down on them. And then they would blame them for everything, kill them in these sort of scapegoating rituals and then anoint them as gods. But often, Gerard would talk about them sort of developing real magical powers once the kind of collective closes in on them and says, oh, you know, this is real.

They start to like use real magic to like defend themselves and it becomes this like crazy mythology like right before they die. Right. And so like maybe in the beginning it is trickery. Yeah.

And that's what it's just like really you know, super weird blurred lines sort of analysis of the thing. Correct. Yeah. And Gerard himself is like this character who's like

there's clearly something esoteric an interesting going on. Mm-hmm. But he's also, you know, this, like, anthropologist that seemingly explains on the, like, outer layer, he explains, uh, the religious through this sort of just, you know, anthropological, purely human, you know, lens. And that might have even happened here on like a microscale where, you know, although the information that I had, you know, I obtained some, in some way, or I knew

what you were going to say because of something that I had preempted or whatever that is, whatever that might be, your password is also closely related to your father's birthday. Yeah, I know. I thought of that, too. I thought of that, but that wasn't why I did it. No, I know. Okay. But that's, again, maybe that's the real magic. Right. Yeah, that there's some sort of like tie. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so fascinating. Well, I also, I think of like, you know, the word Occam's razor. So it's like, this is, you know, it's like, or a sort of term, you know, where it's like, the shortest path or the simplest explanation is correct. And like this is something McWest or like any of these James Randy, any of these debunkers would use.

But if you actually look at the etymology of the word, it came from this guy, William of Occam, who is this Christian monk from the 13th century. And for him it was the least number of entities responsible for a thing is probably the answer. Oh, right. So like like like a lowest common denomination. in terms of like the least coordination or whatever and and often that meant like a miracle happens it's god because it's like the least number of entities the one the one yeah um and and and and now i think because we're swimming in this sort of skeptical epistemological soup of like the age of disenchantment you see something you say occum's razor and like the connotation itself skepticism of

Bacombs razor is prosaic that has to be some Rube Goldberg machine where there is some causal chain. We just don't see it yet. Yeah. And that's that line that I want to remain open to as a magician who is aware of a thousand methods, you know. I don't want to let that get in the way of learning if there isn't another method. Because if you look at, even if I look at my own personal experience, I can definitely see that being the case. case. Sure, there's an explanation for all these unexplainable things that have happened to me, these synchronicities and these birthday paradoxes and whatnot. There are explanations for them,

but that doesn't mean that that is the reason. Well, let's, okay, this is a great, great segue into this question, which is, what is something, you've been doing this for over a year now? And I'm sure you've gone into a lot of things thinking, this is insane, you know, if true, like, you know, you just did this amazing piece on the Lucerta files, these, you know, documents from, from Sweden about these like reptilians or whatever. And like, that's among the more out there things that you've covered, but you've covered everything from that to like, you know, definitely real historical, corroborated stuff with Danny Sheehan. You've had Lou Elizondo on. What's the thing that you went into where you're like, I know this is, or I'm pretty sure this is fake, but it's going to be

interesting. And then you got kind of opt a little by it. And you're like, oh my God, I think this is real. And I think there's actually a lot true to it. Two things, specifically. The 4chan whistleblower and the EBO biologists.

Those two corroborate each other, first of all, which obviously you could just chalk up to one of them read one of the files and based it on the other. They were, the thing is that both of these were created after AI, had already been, I say AI, after these GPT models have already been slightly developed. So there is,

you know, a chance that they were used in the process. Now, after feeding those into AI, it doesn't really tell you that it's made by AI, but, you know, who knows? And having experts read, especially the microbiology stuff that I, you know, I'm just not educated enough to understand a lot of that stuff, they seem to think that this person is definitely like doctorate level microbiology, but also, you know, potentially a great larper, a great storyteller, a great, you know, creative fictional writer at the same time. Should we set both up real quick for the audience? So the 4chan whistleblower, right after, I think this was early 20, 23.

could have been early 20, no, it was definitely early 2023. It was after, was it after or before David, David Grush? I think it might have been before. And then the microbiologist might have been after. I think I might be getting that mixed up. But anyways. I think the microbiologist was after. It was after.

It was before. Correct. Yeah. So the 4-chan whistleblower purported that he'd been working on these crash retrievals for like a, for a decade or whatever it was in the early 2000s, late 90s. and that his job was to, they were monitoring these underground or underwater what they called mobile construction units, these massive, you know, submerged UAPs that didn't have lights that were shaped like giant burgers apparently. And that they were on the ocean floor and essentially building to spec to specifications to exact specifications, these UAPE, and sending them out of the water to destinations unknown.

A lot of that is usually where strife happens or, you know, maybe like a secret nuclear dance between a couple countries or, or maybe even resource collection, whatever that is. And it would like, and they would always come back. These UAP would always come back into this MCU. And his job was, he said there was four units deployed for these crash retrievals. And he said, first of all, the crashes, he's like, They happened more often than people think.

He's like, these beings are not perfect. They are learning. And so now he's like, we see, he's like, we see a lot less bodies in these crafts. And he thinks partially the reason for that is because we recovered the bodies and they didn't like that. So they started developing like these AI sort of ships that would fly around instead. Anyways. Yeah. So these crashes would happen.

His team, he was on the second team. He said the first team would go in, clear out the bodies and the element 115, right? Babelze. Yeah, they'd have one guy do that. And once the bodies were out, he would go in and strip out the internal components of the ship. So like the tools and like the things that were on the walls. And again, everything was built to spec. So if there was like some type of instrument, it would be perfectly placed in a wall with a space made for it.

Everything was to spec for that, you know? Yeah. So they would strip that. out and then team three and four would he said like all likelihood just remove the bulk of the craft take it apart or whatever that is so that was kind of his job and then he would like speculate on what the higher ups would tell him what he heard and how their new management came in and they've kind of shut everybody up and you know you can't talk about certain things and just so this took me four hours to read through so like i did on four different videos because it was this

four chan exchange which we all know is a cesspool trying to like like read through 4chan is is literal schizophrenia. It doesn't, it's not good for your health. You know what I mean? You're going to find a lot of garbage there. And so it doesn't help. But if you were to want to become a whistleblower without going through direct channels, because obviously, you know, a lot of people might argue that these aren't actual whistleblowers if they're not saying everything, you know, they're just kind of being told what they're allowed to say. Well, this guy's like, I'm going to say everything. And he's like, I'm just going to do. do it on here and this is going to go nuts and it's unfiltered.

And the things that he was saying were so interesting and kind of lined up with UFO lore and at other points really created new things within, you know, this, this landscape. And towards the end, he said something that really resonated and kind of haunts me to this day. He said, notice yourself coming back. He's like, I'm not here to convince you of anything, but notice yourself coming back to this as more information unfolds. And it's exactly what I've been doing. I've been going back to it over and over and over and over. When Lou mentioned the giant underwater thing moving at, you know, 500 knots underwater.

That's something this guy talked about. He said these things would move underwater like crazy. He said when approached, they would be evasive and they would just take, like leave. If cornered, it didn't end well. like you get vaporized. He's like, it would shit on anything electronic in the vicinity. He's like, we've tried to, we've sent nukes after it, like on submarines. We've sent jets.

We've scrambled like boats. Like none of them come back. If the intent is, you know, anything malicious, like you'll just get decimated. And he said, you know, the questions were really interesting because like the audience, like the people asking questions. It was like a Q&A. And they would ask, like, do they ever come from space? And he's like, no, rarely. He's like, we'd rarely see anything come in from orbit.

These things mostly left the water and like zoomed out to wherever it was going and would come right back. And that's why you also assumed that there was probably multiple of these things. Because if we're seeing them on the East Coast, this one was situated in the Bahamas, that sort of Bermuda Triangle area, which also. Hot spot. Right? Yeah. And their weapons training facilities were. They're like underwater cables that people don't know where they're going.

Yeah. You know, Atec is this spot out of it. Would make sense. Yeah. It would make sense that it's mobile too. Oh, totally. And so these ships would often come back. And so they're thinking like this guy thought and he was kind of putting together while he was like, oh, yeah.

He's like, it kind of does make sense that we're would. He was never told about more of them. But he's like, it would make sense that there are more because if people seeing them on the East Coast, they probably have something on the East Coast or up in the Atlantic or in the Indian Ocean. What about Trump's speech where he says, you know, talking about the Jersey. drones. He said, these are coming out of the water. We know where the garage is. Or he didn't say they're coming out of the water. He says, it's very strange. We know where the garage is. We go into the garage if we wanted. And then, you know, the sheriff reporting that they were coming out of the water. And what a perfect place to hide on the ocean, you know, on the ocean floor.

Also, the Office of Naval Intelligence is what created, you know, wrote up these reports. Tim Galette talks a lot about, you know, some interesting U.S.os, you know. identified submersible objects. There's an interesting book by a guy named John Pena Craven, where he talks about underwater tech retrievals of secret technology made by submarines. And there are all these lost submarines like the USS Connecticut where it's like, we don't really know what happened. Feels like most of the details are still classified.

Right. So, yeah, look. And then he talks about the shape of the crafts that are being expulsed from this like this mothership, this mobile construction unit and how they didn't have any features. A lot of them were like the spherical ones, he's like, are like drones. They're not manned at all. And those are like more for scanning. And he would go like if you see an orange light, it's they're scanning for minerals or biologics.

And if if the orange light comes up to you, there's a likelihood that you're going to be abducted or you've been abducted. You know, and they had all he had all these like different codes and these different, like you get really into detail about like what they think. and what he thinks they're here for. Yeah, go for. Yeah, I was going to say that for me was the most interesting. It's like, okay, well, what's the why? And he said the higher ups seem to think one of two things. He's like, they, first of all, they're pretty much all in agreement that they just don't care about us.

Like, they just don't care. They don't care. It's more like a zoo where they're not going to be bothered by the day to day of the animals in the zoo. but if one of them breaks loose or like, you know, starts using something to, like, harm the zookeepers or anything else, like they just have to keep it in check. But they don't care what happens in the enclosure. Like, you guys do whatever you want. We don't care. So it's more like that is their attitude towards it.

And they said that could be one of two reasons. Either one, they're kind of waiting for us to, you know, hit this higher, you know, ascension, whatever. and then we become enlightened or two, they're kind of here until something else gets here and keeping this place around until whoever owns the planet comes to pick it up.

Yeah. That was like a darker, weirder theory. Dude, there's just like kind of maintenance. Yeah. Yeah, kind of like these pods that are placed on all the planet as like, it seems like an AI security system. Yeah.

And that even the biologics. Yeah. and you look at tons of accounts of these grays, because that's what he said they were these grays, um, seem to be these biological drones. Yeah. And so part of the AI system being,

you know, I think that's why David Grush uses the term biologics. It's aptly vague. Yeah, they're like almost soulless. They are. And it seems like they just kind of do, execute these sort of low level tasks or whatever.

And often they're around preservation. So it's like genetic sampling or gammy. collection or whatever. And it makes sense you'd send your like AI homeostasis global you know maintenance kit right out. You wouldn't like send your thing.

And drop it in the ocean. And it answers all the like honestly dumb first order questions of like why do they crash? And what, but they would just, they get seen, but they don't care. They don't care. They don't give a shit. They don't care.

If you go to like the zoo and you're, you know, you're, uh, you know, looking at silver back gorillas in Rwanda or whatever. Do you care if you get seen? Like, you probably, probably on some level, like you're wearing camo. So like it would be ephemeral from their perspective. But they also would like occasionally see you.

We dress up like pandas. Yeah, we just. Yeah, right, right. To go into the panda enclosure. Right. Panda's like weird looking panda. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not quite a panda.

It kind of looks like us. Yeah, yeah. It's feeding us and it's studying us. Weird, you know. So it's like the gray thing where it's like, yeah, we like did our best, but like whatever, you know, like you just got to like execute the task. Correct. Yeah.

Yeah, that seems to be what it is like this, like you said, like this maintenance sort of Yeah, sort of like, and there's so much more powerful that it doesn't really matter. Like if one of them goes down, it's like you lost your dispensable thing. Like whatever, you know. They don't like it, I think. I think they're like, ugh, that sucks, but I don't think it's really the end of the world to them. They're just kind of like doing their job again. Yeah.

And like if you were some like intergalactic billionaire, let's say that like megalomaniac that wanted to like seed life across the universe. Let's say Elon Musk in the year, two million. Yeah. Right. Like you would have resources across the universe. doing things like this, you wouldn't yourself go see what's going on. And there's something really disturbing about that to me. And it's kind of like what disturbed me with like fire in the sky. The first move I've ever seen about aliens, and I was like nine years old. Not a movie

you should watch when you're nine, by the way. Do not show your kids fire in the sky. But, you know, the most disturbing thing to me was that they wouldn't allow us to know what was going on. They wouldn't They wouldn't share the culture with us. They were, we weren't allowed to know. So this is Travis Walt. Yeah. He's in Arizona. Yeah, he gets abducted.

Yeah, national park, right? Yeah, but in the movie, they played it out so, so differently. Yeah. But these beings that were sort of performing this procedure on him ignored his screams. Didn't care about any, any of his well-being and just did the tasks and sort of perhaps communicated among themselves and like, but they wouldn't allow us. to see or hear or understand what they're doing. Yeah.

And that really frightened me where I was like, how dare you, like, not tell us what you're up to, you know, if you're going to do this to us? Like, there's something really that didn't sit well with me. Is that part of your mission now to figure out what they're up to? Because I feel like a lot of your, the vector along which you are making progress is like, what do they want? What's the sort of culture on the other side of the kind of non-human intelligence? How do they think of us?

Yeah, that's, and it might be a multifaceted answer that I'm not ready for, but I do believe that, like, I'm super curious about that stuff. And when I, and when I think of these, like, these aliens right now that we're encountering, and if this is the case, that this is all, they're all just like these grays are just a part of this maintenance system that was like placed throughout the universe, you know, to think that like some of us might accidentally through some, happenstance or encounter chance or whatever be quote unquote lucky or unlucky enough to meet the worker bee that's it that's as far as that goes not meeting the next one or the next one or the we some of us may by chance through accident get to meet the lowest form yeah of their like they don't like kind of this robotic whatever yeah and we're like oh my it's God. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

And it's just like the worker bee. Can I flip the frame a bit on your frustration? Because, like, you think of all the people who are traumatized just by meeting the worker be that maybe it's pretty adapted. Like, think about all of, you know, you need to get off. Often these people get sort of hypnotic regressions. And then they go through, you know, sometimes therapy. Yeah, some of trauma.

It's analogous to experiencing any other traumatic experience. If you were mugged and beat up. ruthlessly on the street. Yeah. It would be similar sort of shards, compartmentalization, sort of, you know, repressed. Yeah, it is similar. It's very similar.

And so from a cognitive psychology perspective. And so if you are the ultimate being, maybe you're, like, think about the movie arrival, right? Like the like cephalopods or whatever. Like if you actually experience that in real life, yeah. I think a high percentage of people would go insane. Yeah.

But also it kind of like, I do think it supports the, idea that they just don't care because if they did, they wouldn't make these things look so freaking ugly, dude. Right. Right. They'd make them a little more appealing. Right. Or familiar at least.

Right. Or maybe that's their attempt to making them familiar. So imagine how ugly they are. I'm not convinced. They're like, oh, we made similar humans. You're like, what is this little gray dude? They're like, it's a human. You're like, that's not a human?

Yeah. For all we know, like, they're just good enough to like complete the objective. of like doing whatever they need and like bipedal. They haven't like made the upgrade or whatever. Or they don't care. Or they don't care. Yeah. So and then yeah, so if that is the case, then maybe they are sort of protecting

us from like the fact that 99% of us, you know, if you look at Diana Posulka's description of St. Francis of Assisi encountering the seraphim or whatever, like any of these things, I think it would drive most people a little nuts. Horrific. Yeah. And, you know, he has

what she would now say is probably like, you know, electromagnetic, you know, radiation or whatever. And like he, but then the story that like never ends up getting told around this is like he dies from it a year later. And so in some ways, maybe you need to just see the worker be. Like maybe the worker bee is like, you know, that drives you crazy enough. Like I don't know very many people would want to see a gray in their bedroom like that. That's something I want to see ever. Yeah, no, for sure. And but I also wonder like, like all we're seeing.

is their scientists, really. They're not even. We're just seeing like the arms of their scientists. Like we're not even seeing, we're not meeting their poets. The lab interns. Yeah, exactly. We're not meeting their musicians. Yeah.

If they, if they have, if they know what music is, we're, we get to see their scientists. What a shitty first encounter? I don't want to send my scientists or scientists to be the first people to meet a new civilization. Could you imagine? Could you imagine getting like scientists, putting them on like a UFO, sending them to another planet, being like, you guys are the ones that are going to establish first contact.

And they're like socially awkward, a little weird. They're like nervous. And like they don't really know how to interact and how to like use the right words in a social situation. Like I wouldn't like that. I would probably send over someone with more charisma with maybe a philosopher, maybe someone, you know what I mean? So why send us the scientists? Well, maybe.

Because they don't care. either they don't care or a la the prime directive in star trek they are waiting for us to reach some sort of consciousness litmus test and once we've reached that threshold we are worthy of you know real interaction yeah that would make that that would make sense too and i hope that that's the case i hope that this is just some type of like safeguard that's here to make sure we don't destroy ourselves because i think we do need that and uh you know i've always i've always been in i do too yeah i think if you actually viewed us having a multi-polar nuclear world through like a pure game theory probability lens like I think

the world may have already ended you know like I don't multiple times or multiple times like and then I think if not it's probably going to end soon if you just think we live in a world without this other stuff yeah we wouldn't no we wouldn't yeah there's no way I mean there's no way do you see like I don't see us like de-arming or de-escalating on the nuclear so like and then it's like if arguably we're in a worse situation than the Cold War now. Because it's it's it's it's it's more confusing vis-a-vis, you know, Russia and China. And the UAP stuff.

In the UAP stuff. The advanced technology and yeah. Yeah. And we'll also just the weaponry that like everybody's like, you know, it's all like AI and warfare. Yeah. And like, you know, like that's like a cold hard algorithm that then has to make the decision.

And then there has to be some sort of human in the loop. But like the human is becoming parisitized. and like demoted in that loop as far as the decision making goes. And they have to be from a game theory lens. If like the adversary is using the AI thing, then you have to use the AI thing. And so it doesn't feel like things are getting like more likely that we ascend through the great filter and make it on the other side.

If the great filter, though, is more consciousness based, that I think gives us a little more hope from like a materialist lens. Yeah, I don't think we should be exploring other planets right now. Should you totally? Yeah, we should be focusing on, you know, This. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the fact that we have a Goldilocks planet. Yeah. That's extremely, you know, you have the anthropic principle in physics. Like, we are, we're so lucky. Like, if Plank's constant, we're like slightly deviated, like we, we know we wouldn't have a habitable Earth. If hydrogen and oxygen didn't form these perfect crystal lattice structures, uh, the more solid form of water, which is ice would be more dense and it'd sink below and the earth would flood over. Like, there are million examples like that. And what a cry for help to want to live on such. a shitty planet like Mars. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Where it's just gross. Yeah. There's nothing good there. Yeah. You know, I don't see the, I don't see the allure. If we can't make. When we have fjords and we have like, you know, vast valleys of like beautiful life and we're, and we'd rather see ourselves living in some weird, you know, artificial hut.

That's a cry for help. Yeah. On a red, barren, deoxygenated planet. And we have like, storms. We have like interlocking and Switzerland and like shingry. You have like, you know, like Tibet here. It's a cry for help. But we got, we have to go to Mars because we're going to save humanity.

If we go to, we just go to Mars, we're good. Yeah. It's, you know, totally. It feels like a, you know, like a cynical, almost like a distraction. It's like, if you focus all your efforts towards something that's maybe Sisyphine, but directs all of your attention and energy source something that's, it's nominally charismatic. Yeah, okay. Then you forget about, you know, how, how bad things are here or something. I don't know. I don't know what it is. But if you actually think about it, it's not, it's completely illogical. And I, yeah, that's it. That's why I, like, I struggle a lot when I hear about these cases where these abductees get, like, there's a pattern with abductees. You get taken out of your room or out of your bed or whatever it is. You get brought in, they perform some type of examination or some type of, um, operation, whatever it is.

Then they give you a tour of the ship. Then they send you imagery of the world completely being annihilated, these terrible, terrible images and make you feel bad for what we're doing to the world. And then they put you back home. Yeah. That is the protocol, it seems like, for what they're doing. That's like, okay, we're going to do this. Then we'd leave them with this.

And then that's like the protocol that they've been, that's the directive that they're following. Yeah. To like, because maybe they're not in control. They're just like, they're doing the thing. They're like, okay, now we've got to give them the images. And then I got to give them the tour, okay, tour number and put them back to their bed. Everything should be good. And they found that like, there's been no resistance there and like, okay, this is working. And they haven't really tweaked it. And so, and so, I'm always like, I'm always so skeptical because it's like, you know, you go to, you go to Zimbabwe and you hit these kids, these children with these images of like, technology is bad and we're blowing up the earth and like, we're killing. And we're, and we're, like,

it's just the worst imagery ever and this is all your fault humans and like we're crying and we're so introspective and like we got to change and like nothing happens yeah nothing freaking changes ever ever like if you're such an intelligent being then you probably have the foresight to understand that we're not going to do shit like we're not going to do anything to change this world on our own that we wouldn't have already done yeah if anything it's it you know it's it's it's it's it's not getting that much better we're you know we're we're we're we're We're killing more trees and we're polluting the oceans more than ever. And it's like it's not that isn't helping.

Yeah. You have to know that being a smart superior, you know, entity. You have to know that telling us that we're being bad. Yeah. Doesn't help us with a solution. There needs to be intervention. There's a great book called The Inner Game of Tennis. And it's all about like if you like criticize a person over and over again for like making mistakes.

Right. It doesn't help them get better. at tennis at all. Yeah. You like just let them, let them go. And like, it's almost like this like how to coach without coaching at all. Sure. And, um, I'm skeptical as well.

I think it's so, yeah, it's so easy. I mean, a lot of these things sort of echo this like Greta van Thunberg, you know, like sort of like these solutions that are overly technocratic where it's a, it's a hypnotic trick. And, and look at the track record. It's always failed. People the, all you're doing is and you're just going to end up. creating people who are going to write a book and speak at UFO conventions.

Totally. You're not creating like the next president or or creating like a world leader that's going to change anything. It's never that. It's always utter trauma. All, all utopian movements and in complete failure. And like there's a, there's a good book called Passport to Utopia, not to be confused with Passport to Megonia.

And it's all of these like utopian movements. And you think, think about. like the 20th century is the age of ideology. Like this was like Hitler and Stalin and Trotskyism, all these things where it's like, it's too simple. Marxism, it's all too simple.

It's like if you just do these sort of technocratic things, you know, then we're good. We'll figure it out. You know, it's all good. And empirically, all of those always fail. And in fact, if you look at their

underlying roots, they're sort of maybe they're cult-like and hyper Christian in a way like they're actually like the more uh uh sort of religious than then then you realize and and so then you have to ask yourself why yeah so why are we being shown these things i think yeah i think you have to be skeptical so then yeah probably to manage us or something yeah or or to justify what they're doing to us yep you know if you're being um operated on or being you know things being shoved up your nostril and and whatnot like all these these horrific things, it's trauma. And then you're like internally frustrated, afraid, fearful,

resentful, spiteful to these beings. And then they, you know, they implant these emotions in your mind and say, no, you're the bad guy. Yeah. Look at what you're doing. And you start crying because you're like, oh, what are we doing? And they go, we're helping you. It's like this, it's this negging process. It's probably like Charles Manson did to the family. Yeah, we're helping. We're here to help you and we're like and now we're thankful to them for doing these procedures and and I'm not saying that that is the thing. I'm saying that this is what it looks like to me after just reading a lot of these cases where you know I use this example a lot but yeah if like you know my coffee cup started talking to me grew a mouth right now and two eyes and was like hey the earth that's flat actually

you know I would be inclined to believe it yeah and I know that sounds absurd at first I'd check myself into a hospital, but then once, you know, I confirmed that this is reality, it's basically telling me that on some level, at least partially, that my reality is a lie. Yeah. And it has shown me that. Yeah. So it has given me more truth. Yeah. And so I would be inclined to believe it. And so if I was some type of light coming down from the sky and I spoke to you in your mind and told you that I was God. Yeah. There is no reason you would believe it.

Not believe it. Yeah. In fact, if you spoke against that light, they would kill you. Yeah. That's the reality of the situation is that anyone who gets a message from these NHI has no reason to doubt the message. Yeah. Because it's showing you something true.

Yeah. And so therefore, you automatically just believe it. The rest of it has to be true. Of course. Yeah. And there's no reason. And I'm saying that. If I had an interaction where they spoke into my head and told me some information, I would be convinced that as the truth, too.

I'm not saying I'm immune to that. Well, yeah. Well, you have a great example of Christopher Columbus. Yeah. You want to tell that story? Yeah. He was, this was, I think, of the Bahamas. But he showed up with his boat and there was like the, what was the Bahamas?

It was an island. Yeah, West Indies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there was the native people that were there. and his whole crew had been starving and they were thirsty and they wanted, you know, they were dying of like all these terrible things.

And so they had asked the locals to provide them with food and water and the locals refused. And so they were trying to come up with a plan on how to how to get them to like feed, you know, the crew. And so, you know, Chris Columbus had said, if you do not do what we ask, we will block out your son in three days time. you have three days. And so three days later, sure enough, there was a solar eclipse. And so him knowing that there was a solar eclipse happening, you know, use that against the people as like kind of like a sciop or whatever to, you know, feed his, feed his crew. And they did that. And so again, yeah, I mean, Arthur C. Clark, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Yep. You know, and so when you can present that, we have no reason not to believe that. Yep. You know, so anybody who is above our level of intelligence sufficiently enough can claim to be God. Yeah. And probably does. Yeah. It's so fascinating.

So given that, and given I think that very healthy orientation towards this entire subject, you know, from your year and a half of doing the show, and I'm sure much, you know, longer than that of being. sort of interested in this topic, how do you orient towards it? Like, what's the problem? Because there's something around a lot of these, you know, experiences where sometimes it feels like they're outsourcing their agency or it's like, you know, often it's just like everything they told me is, is true. Other times they feel sort of antagonized and like they just want to be totally rid of it. And like they don't take any of it, you know, like, like worthy of, you know, considerate. they literally just want to like run away like departmentalize or whatever is there some like healthy middle ground or like how how should one orient you know themselves towards the subject it's difficult

to say because i'm not like i'm not someone who has been abducted right so i can't tell those people how to feel obviously um they're you know they're going through it so um and i've not you know been a part of military projects where i i know of legacy stuff you know so i the perspective that i have comes uniquely from my own you know person personal experience, but I tend to focus on story. I love story. I think story is the most beautiful thing that we can share. I think, you know, there's a reason we had bards back in the day because they had an important role. They had to tell you story. And I am fascinated by story. So when I look at these things, I try to look at it through a lens of story. And by story, I mean, like there's an arc and

there's a reason and there's a purpose and there's there's beauty and there's an artistic sort of natural flow you know and this and so I tend to look at it as story and all these new components and these new cases and these new pieces of information are padding this universe building just much like you would if you were building star wars or if you were you know building interstellar. You need these universe building building blocks to keep you enclosed in this fictional bubble. And so I'm not saying it's fiction, but I treat it as such until it's proven otherwise. And I think for me that

sustains my creativity, my creative thinking, and my interest into the topic. If I were to look at this practically, constantly in a skeptical manner, I think I would burn myself out and I probably would get a little cynical. And so I try. That's what I'm feeling. Yeah.

Totally burned out and cynical on all this stuff. Yeah. So looking at it from like this beautiful storytelling lens with these storytelling elements and then integrating that into the content that I make and creating these whimsical worlds to take people out for a spin, I think there's no harm in that. And I also think that, you know, the medium is the message to some extent where, like, if I can help, you know, if I can help tell a story, like, if you can't be better than everyone, be different type deal.

So, you know, for me, I look at my role in all of this as someone who perhaps my lack of knowledge and experience can be made up for with my ability to tell story. And I think you have a lot of knowledge too, but. Thank you for saying that, but definitely a lot less than, you know, than yourself or like GERB or like any of the, no, absolutely. But I admire that. But I think what I make up for is, is this other, this other sort of dimensionality. And in this space, you know, I often talk about entertainment as being like a good thing for euphology.

And some people believe the opposite. They say it ruins it. Yeah, but it's tough, man. because the second you say it ruins it, you can't really decouple story from all of this. Right, exactly. So what's real? Yeah, what is real?

Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's extremely hard. It goes back to the thing of like, how do you know an electron exists? It's because it's like in textbooks and it's been measured by people. By the way, for the record, I do believe electrons exist, but I'm taking it on faith. And then you have all these other stories and it's like, it's extremely,

it comes down to your kind of political biases and your instincts and like, you know, you can lie. and say that it's not, but it's like the basis of belief, Jake Barber said this in my interview with him, is like people don't really understand the basis of their beliefs. I think that's definitely true. I also think that, you know, relating it back to magic, there is something about the willing suspension of disbelief

that enhances your experience and maybe your human experience here. Yeah. So I think if you're able to have enough cognitive, you know, pliability. Exactly. To be able to successfully, temporarily at least, suspend your disbelief to a few of these stories. I think it will enhance your experience on Earth. It may not make, it may not give you the definitive answers. Yeah. But it will make the pursuit of those answers more joyful and meaningful. Yeah.

And I think that that's really important in this subject, because if you're constantly just cynical or non-believing or even the other way, just too-believing and like get critical of other people saying what you're saying isn't real, I think you're missing out on like a whole world of discovery and beauty and whimsy that I think is really important. And I think that when you put yourself in that mind state, you tend to absorb more information. So, you know, I could, I could, you know, spit facts at you all day. But by creating an environment that's more conducive to you wanting to be immersed there, you're going to absorb that information a lot more.

You know, we learn more things when we enjoy doing them. Absolutely. And rather than going to school for something, just getting out there and doing it because you're passionate about it, you're going to learn more there. Absolutely. You know, so it's kind of the same. I treat it kind of in the same way. Let's have fun doing this.

Yeah. That doesn't mean, that doesn't mean, you know, we have to believe everything. The energy with which the content is transmitted is you can't decouple that from the content itself. And people can say you can decouple it. But I do think that's how ideas take hold. It's not necessarily only the content. Like we like to think that we are perfect measurement sensors of truth in some abstract sense. And we take away like the energy surrounding it or the medium or, you know, whatever.

And it goes into some like code compiler. And that's just so not how we, you know, process. anything. Yeah, of course. Watch a movie without a soundtrack and it won't be the same movie. No, not at all. No, it'll seem so much lamer. Yeah, it'll seem weird and empty. And you won't retain most of it. You'll probably fall asleep. But like the soundtrack all of a sudden now immerses you and it gives you a reason to care and puts you there and makes you feel like you're a part of it. And because of that, you're retaining the information as if you're the one actually experiencing it. Yes. Rather than hearing someone else's experience, you know, and that's a really important thing when, you know,

when learning something. I think we learn things for. for the purpose of survival. Yeah. And it's, it's the reason why we're interested in a lot of drama. You know, you think about drama. Why do people like drama?

Why do people like drama? Because people like putting themselves in other people's position so they might be able to, uh, through this connection, learn a lesson that they might not otherwise learn, right? So they're, they're feeling it out. So what would I have done?

You know? And now they don't have to actually do that terrible thing is why we watch these murder docs and these like serial killers. Why do we, why are we obsessed? Because we like to put ourselves in those shoes. As as sick as that sounds, we like to like,

just imagine. it's like being a roller coaster being close to death without dying and learning from that i think it's why these characters like you know Elon or trump or even like conier right now is like saying everything you're not a lot like i'm i'm jewish so nominally i'm supposed to be like this guy sucks or whatever even though you know love is early music um but like there's something weirdly like it's hard to look away while he's like self imploding online yeah um and it's something like you know we all walk around as, you know, it's like the Rousseau's Noble Savage or whatever, where it's like, we have to repress constantly. Everybody represses, you know, as Freud would say this,

everybody repress. And maybe Freud's specific idiosyncratic repressions were based on his own weird autobiography. But like, you know, often it's, it's, we just do. And then you see somebody and they're so not, they're just so, like, unconstrained. They're just so weird. They're like these ubermenshy, you know, figures or whatever. And, you know, again. It's a funny term. Yeah, yeah, especially in this context with Kanye, not endorsing anything he's saying. But there's some weird, like, voyeuristic, like, I can't not see that. Like, like, and this bizarre desire to, like, you know, live vicariously through that for a lot of people, I think.

I would assume, because, like, of the amount of traction you get online to this day. Yeah, you want to, you want to learn a lesson without having to learn the lesson. Yeah. Because that helps you survive. It helps you grow as a person. That's interesting. And so, you know, living through other people's experiences adds to our own data of, of, you know, what being here is. Collectively, we're kind of helping each other do that now with story.

Yeah. You know, and so if you can create really immersive stories, then you can help be that conduit for someone else to learn a lesson or to grow a little bit more in their own knowledge versus just having them read text or, you know, saying something monotonously. You can, you can create an environment where they're more conducive to learn something new. I love that, man. And it's so beautiful. I mean, it really does speak to, like, why do certain ideas die on the vine and why do others take hold? We think of, you know, ideas that make it into the modern zeitgeist, whether it's in science,

politics, you know, a curriculum in school as being this like, oh, this, this reached some, like, truthiness threshold. So, like, it's now in the textbook. It's now in the canon or whatever. And in fact, it's like history is told by the winners. And, like, the winners, like, know how to tell their story extremely charismatic. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's a, it's just a fascinating kind of new frame. Yeah. And I think your show itself embodies this like just beautiful. I mean, you're like, you know, your, your,

your set is like amazing. You know, you have like this skiff, uh, that looks like this sort of mid-century, you know, really cool kind of space age thing with like all these knobs and toggles. You're like, wide shot is literally this overhead security camera. And then you're wearing like the suspenders. You're like this detective or whatever. And it's this beautiful, it's like two things. It like, you're like in it. You're like, wow, this is real. But then also you can kind of cover like really crazy stuff because you kind of have

an out where you're like, yeah, I'm just wearing suspenders and I'm sitting in this fake skiff. Yeah. You know, whatever. Yeah. And so it's both. It's both kind of, you know, plausible deniability for you. Yeah.

And it's also like the most immersive, beautiful experience for the viewer. And, uh, yeah, I'm just, I see that like, you know, going, go into the. the moon. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. Thank you for taking notice. But yeah, just taking you out for a spin. That's the idea. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Chris, this is an honor, man. Everybody go subscribe to Area 52, become a member on YouTube. Go to the Discord. You have really cool, thoughtful. You have the interns on Discord. And you guys do kind of reading groups together. Sometimes you have movie nights. So it's a stepwise

better experience in my opinion than other just random kind of communities that don't really get thought about. It's just kind of like a way to monetize. Not the case with you. You have a Patreon as well, right? Yeah, it's all linked together. So Patreon and membership are the same thing. Kind of they allow you

all the top secret access to the secret section of the Discord and all that stuff and all the cool stuff. But essentially you can just join the Discord for free if you just want to find like a community. We keep a positive vibe there in an open mind. You know, we try to really keep it friendly without having, you know, too many politics involved. Like, we're just there to share a story and to like, what if.

Awesome, man. Well, maybe the whole world is a stage. We're just in it. Chris, this is an honor, man. It's so fun. Thank you. Yeah, I was still trying to figure out how you. I think maybe at least with my code that you, you know.

Shoulder surfed you or something. Yeah, well, you knew. I think you felt. the impacts of what? Because I clicked, I clicked that in, right? I made me something around that. You guys go figure it out.

Awesome, man. Hey, dude. Appreciate it. Before we go, just a reminder that this episode was sponsored by Surfshark. Don't miss out on the extra four months. At surfshark.com slash American Alchemy. The link is right below in the description.

Stay curious. Stay safe. And I'll see you next time on American Alchemy. this isn't your show. They're going to see me, not you. Stay tuned. Stay curious. Stay safe.

And you'll see him next time on American Alchemy. Thanks.