American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - CIA Psychic Spy: “Mars Used To Have Alien Life”

Episode Date: March 2, 2025

🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on Saily data plans! Use code AMERICANALCHEMY at checkout. Download Saily app or go to https://saily.com/americanalchemy Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with the legendary Joe McMoneagle, the CIA’s Remote Viewer No. 1, who played a pivotal role in the highly classified Stargate program, where he used remote viewing to penetrate the world’s deepest intelligence secrets. His sessions pinpointed undetectable nuclear submarines, exposed covert Soviet weapons programs, and provided life-saving intelligence during high-stakes missions in Vietnam and Europe, earning him the Legion of Merit. McMoneagle also describes out-of-body experiences and remote viewing sessions that revealed unusual structures on Mars—specifically pyramidal formations and fortress-like ruins. He claims to possess JPL negatives that match his descriptions and believes further analysis is needed. These findings come amid growing evidence that Mars once had rivers, a magnetosphere, and even fossilized bacteria—an idea that gained traction after NASA’s ALH 84001 meteorite discovery, President Clinton’s 1996 announcement, and analyses from plasma physicist John Brandenburg suggesting Mars may have suffered a nuclear catastrophe. From double-blind experiments demonstrating psi perception as a quantifiable skill to the precise methods behind remote viewing accuracy, McMoneagle challenges the limits of human perception. This episode explores the mechanics of consciousness, the future of intelligence gathering, and the controversial possibility that Mars may hold evidence of past civilization. -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- Timestamps: 00:00 Opening 02:03 The Legendary Joseph McMoneagle 7:57 The Origins of Psychic Ability 10:03 Shamans and Their Insights 11:11 Military Recruitment and Remote Viewing 23:05 Surviving the Vietnam War 30:56 The Development of Psychic Skills 54:23 The Science of Remote Viewing 57:21 Early Successes in the Stargate Program 1:13:07 The CIA and Psychic Spying 1:17:42 Defense Against Remote Viewing 1:19:32 Understanding Remote Viewing 1:28:53 The Journey to Mars 1:36:42 Life and Death 1:48:08 Secrets of the Pentagon 1:54:28 Remote Viewing the Past 2:12:16 Theories of Human Origins 2:21:29 Legends of Himiko 2:25:54 UFOs and Their Implications 2:33:25 Aliens and Humanity's Future -------------------------- Key Revelations: 1. -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [e-mail] #history #spy #aliens #meditation Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I have probably somewhere in neighborhood of 60-something photographs of things on Mars. They're clearly alien. Is it possible that there was a civilization on Mars thousands of years ago? When did you start to believe there was life on Mars? Well, you saw the square. Yeah. That square on Mars from that photo. Is that real?

Yes, that's real. Is that real? That's real. That's three feet long and it back around. That was taken on Mars. That's laying on Mars. These pyramidal places are like hibernation chambers. They're trying to survive until somebody comes to save them. Wow, that's amazing.

That's not the coolest thing. That's so cool, though. You're saying that you remote viewed a pyramid on Mars a million years ago. Know that feeling when you're exploring a new city or a new country. And suddenly you realize you're out of data or stuck with one of those overpriced local SIM cards. Well, that used to be my travel story. Until I discovered Saly, the amazing sponsor of today's video. Imagine downloading one app, installing your ESIM just once, and then being connected

to over 180 countries with affordable plans that wipe out those crazy roaming fees. Whether you're hopping between cities or traveling across regions, Saly's got you covered. I personally remember one trip where I was stranded at the airport with zero Wi-Fi in sight. Instead of scrambling for a sketchy sim, I simply opened the Saly app, chose a plan, and was back online instantly. No lines, no scams, just seamless connectivity. So here's the deal. If you're planning your next adventure,

do yourself a favor and download the Saley app. Get an exclusive 15% discount on Saly data plans. Use code American Alchemy at checkout. Download the Saly app or go to saly.com slash American Alchemy. From there, you can scan the QR code on your screen or head over to the link on the pinned comment on this video. Stay connected, save time, and Travel Smart with Saly.

Happy travels and thanks for listening. I'm here with the legendary Joseph McMonigle. You are known as Remote Viewer No. 1. And in my mind, you are sort of the archetypal remote viewer as part of the Stargate program. I think you're as or more gifted than any psychic in the world. And you've developed some open source protocols that you now teach as well.

You won the Legion of Merit for OECICs. over 200 instances in which you added to military intelligence, you've saved countless lives. And so thank you for your service and thank you for having me here. I am honored here. You're welcome. Of course you're welcome. Thank you, man.

Well, let's get into it. I think a lot of people, when it comes to the psychic question, they wonder if it's just this innate thing you're born with or whether it's trained. Well, everybody's born with it. What you have to understand is if you went back 400,000 years, we didn't have, we didn't even have language. So the typical grouping of people was a family unit. It would be like 12 to 15 people, you know, from the older all the way down to the youngest. And we couldn't, we actually didn't have a language. We couldn't speak to one other. We started out grunting and pointing. So the men did the

hunting and the women did the gathering back in those days. So you were at high risk just doing either one of those because the animals are extremely dangerous. So if there were six men, eight men circling an animal for a kill, they had to know what each one of them was doing and if they were in the right place and doing the right thing. The same thing with the women, if they were out gathering in a place where they were looking for roots, let's say, and it was tall grass and a saber-toothed tiger came into that grass, you couldn't see it. But instinctively, Just like you see deer doing today, all the women's heads would come up. And they'd all look in that direction and start backing into a crowd because there's more defense in a crowd.

So it's almost like with the development of writing and other senses that have become more emphasized in modernity, we have lost this innate ability to communicate with nature and through instinct. Think of it this way. Eventually, one family unit met an... other family in it, they decide to share the same cave. So you're sitting in the cave and your strong point is that you can actually almost read somebody's mind. In other words, you're reading other human beings because you've been doing it your whole life and you're just starting to develop a language. So you send it to fire and the guy across from you was a new stranger.

First time you've ever had a stranger sitting there and he's kind of oogling your spear. you know, like, oh man, that's a good-looking spear. You picked that up. He's a dead man. He starts checking your woman out, you know? So that didn't work. So Mother Nature does what it always does when it has to fix something. It probably installed an early filter of some kind.

Maybe it was in the Colosum where the mind interchanges information. Yeah, the Corpus Colossum, which divides the left and right hand. So it probably did that in order to just slow it down a little bit, make it a little more harder to perceive. Well, that's interesting. Have you heard of Julian Janes, you know, the origins? Well, he talks about the bicameral mind and the origins of consciousness and how there is a splitting between left and right brain.

And the corpus callosum is that sort of splitting. And when you think about schizophrenia, it deals with anomalies in the corpus callosum. And Kim Peek, who's a famous. is the inspiration for Rain Man, actually had cephalitis. And that allowed him seemingly to download all of this information as if it was from the cloud or something. And so it does seem like there's a part of that brain, which divides the left and right brain when actually hindered,

allows for more downloads. Yeah, and we did a lot of studies. When I went from the Army into the research lab, we did a lot of studies while doing remote viewing. And it turns out there were a lot of things we discovered. Some of them were there are actual brain cells throughout the nervous system. So if you want to talk about mind, you have to talk about the entire body now because the entire brain is in the nervous system and it's also in the head, in the skull.

Your senses are exquisitely sensitive for a lot of stuff, but we don't pay any attention to it because if we have a problem, we go see a doctor or we look it up in a book or whatever. We didn't have to have that instant understanding for what was going on. So it atrophies naturally. And what I find really interesting is I don't know if you're tracking this, but one of the number one podcasts in the country right now, something called the telepathy tapes. And it's nonverbal, often autistic children who have extremely high rates of clairvoyance.

And so one has to wonder, is there opportunity cost with the language that we have developed? And when you're not relying on that language, do you revert back to a more primordial form of communication? Well, it brings consciousness into an arena where you no longer are sensing the surroundings or the situation. It's called situational awareness. Your focus is taken off of that. And it's into how you're going to communicate, what you feel about the person across the me, what you're sensing from them. So the warning system that was very functional 200,000 years ago,

becomes more dysfunctional. Well, you take somebody and put them in combat for a lot. Or you put a policeman on the beat at night alone, or firemen's in a building on fire. They got to know when to back out of that fire because the building's going to collapse. Or we're not to. to go in the alley because it's an ambush.

So you become more situationally aware about the entire area around you instead of just where you're sitting. When do you first recall as a child being like, okay, maybe I'm kind of good on this sort of psychic stuff? When they decided some of the gangs in the area decided they needed me as a token white kid. That didn't work for me. To literally mentally scout what might happen to them or something? Well, it was more of a, I didn't feel comfortable with people that I know might have not liked me as much as the other kids

or were waiting for me to be alone with my change from going to the store for my mother or something. You know, it became a danger for me in many cases just going to the store. because I had that $5 bill in my pocket or something, that kind of thing. Do you remember any specific instances where you got some download as a child? As a child? Yeah, you knew something was going to happen before it did. Not so much specific instances. I just remember being alert all the time.

And hearing voices sometimes it would tell me, don't do this, don't do that. Interesting. Or back off. You know, don't go down that road. go down this road. And I remember we were on the phone one time, and you were talking about just shamanic traditions generally. In the beginning, the people who come.

And often shaman's, from like a physical perspective, wouldn't be the most adaptive. They might be sickly or protected actually by the group, by the tribe. Right. But extremely, from like a group selection level, extremely adaptive for the tribe, because they're essential for scouting

what might kind of come around the building. The shamans make all the decisions. I mean, they notice things like a blackbird lands on a certain limb, faces a certain way, and it means something to them, but only because it's tied to maybe what the weather's going to do. But they're not observant enough to know the weather's changing, but they are observant enough to notice the blackbirds. So they sort of superstitiously anchor things being caused

by the environment that relates to changes and things that are going to be dangerous. Fascinating. Yeah. So at what point do you get recruited for the military? Ha, ha. In the military, you mean for remote viewing? No, I mean generally.

You were in Vietnam, am I wrong? Yeah, but my first tour, when I joined the military, my original AIT, advanced individual training was for a thing called the Sidewinder. It was a track-mounted 6th 106 recalls rifle barrels, and they used them for anti-tank and bunker busting, that sort of thing. So I actually wanted that. When I first joined, I wanted to fly fixed wing,

but I couldn't because I had a problem with my eyes for depth perception. So they said, you can't fly with glasses, so pick another MOS, military occupational especially. So I picked the sidelineer because I really thought it was cool. So I went eight weeks to AIT for that, and as soon as I graduated, everybody got sent to Vietnam except me.

They hauled me back and said, the armies decided to obsolete your weapon system. They're going to turn it all over to the South Vietnamese Army. So you need to find another job. So go out me on the base and find something you like. So I spent two days walking around on the base, and it's a training base. It was Fort Jackson, South Carolina. So one afternoon, I wouldn't find anything I liked.

So one afternoon I went to the beer hall, which is connected to the PX. So since it's a training facility, it was empty. It's just me in there, and I was drinking a beer. They served 3.2 beer there. It's terrible stuff. I was drinking a beer by myself, and this man came in, a civilian with a beard, and he sat way across the room. And I said, why are you way over there? Why did you come over here and sit with me?

And we could talk. So he came over, and he said, why aren't you in training? And I explained to him what I was doing. And he said, well, maybe I can help. He gave me his card. But on his card, all he had was his name on one side and his phone number on the other. So I called him the next day, and he told me how to get to his office, and he was working in a trailer. And so when I went in the trailer, I found out that he was a guy who was in intelligence.

And I asked him, is there any openings in intelligence? And he said, there could be. He said, but four-year commitment is not long enough. You have to have a six-year commitment because it takes a long time to train. So I said, well, I can't, how do you do that? So he gave me a short discharge, and I re-listed for six years, which was crazy back then. And got picked up for intelligence and sent to school. I went to school for 16 months.

I went through three classes. The first one, 130 people. I graduated second in the class. That's amazing. So. On what criteria? This was all about radios. Okay.

Learning to operate all, you know, Chinese radios, Russian radios, American radios, all those kinds of things. So you're pretty technically savvy? No, I wasn't. Okay. That's what the trainees for. Ah. And the problem was, um, International Morse code.

I had to learn international Morse code. And I had to learn to send it and receive it with a pencil and a open J28 key. And I had to be able to do that at 20, words a minute. 20 words of minutes fast. And I got to 10. And I was getting closer and closer to graduation date. And if I couldn't get past 12, I wouldn't graduate. I'd become what they call a 1-1B grunt with a rifle. You know where you go when you're a grunt with a rifle. So I went to the, I went out through a hole in the fence to a hotel downtown and the local town and shot pool and drank beer all night.

Came back. I was late for class. I went into the classroom and sat down and the instructor came over and he did one of these. Oh my God, where have you been? And I told him, I said, I can't do this. And he put the headsets on me, handed me the key and said, you're going to have to or you're going to Vietnam. So I passed 10, 12, 15, 15, 18, 20. to that day in like two hours.

Something popped in my head. Wow. And it's just like a language to me now. Mm. So. But even there, you're showing this ability to learn. Yeah. You're saying you're not technically savvy, but under certain, you know, duress.

It's like a language, though. You know, if you have to translate things in your head while you're listening, you're not really learning the language. Yeah. It's when you automatically know what the person's saying in that language. that's learning the language. It's interesting. I was talking to this woman

named Dr. Diane Powell who studies a lot of these nonverbal children, and she was saying that the mind itself is a sense. And I didn't quite understand what she meant by that, but you're kind of corroborating that. Yeah, because you have to understand everything about your senses is a conscious sensing.

Your mind is telling you what these things like your eyes, your ears, your nose, are telling you about the world at large. The problem is, you're locked inside a bone box. Right. So all this out here is just the figment of your imagination

that your mind is put together. Yeah. So the eyes alone, to give you an example, the eyes alone vibrate. And we don't know, we can't even tell it's happening. The reason they vibrate is they're actually giving you two different pictures with big black holes in the middle. Because the back of the eyeballs where the nerve root connect.

so there's no rods and cones there. So to get rid of those big black holes, it's called dithering. It produces a multitude of pictures very quickly by vibrating the eyes, and it overlays and washes away the black holes. So then it combines the result, and what you see is what your mind has created

out of all that vibratory moving around and everything. So if there's something in the room that you detest, you may never see it. And there's lots of stuff you can find on the Internet now, like where they say, you know, tell me how many times these two guys pass a basketball. And you're focused on something else. You're focused on that. And when the film's over, they'll say something like, did you see the six-foot-four guy in the grill suit?

You go, get out of here. Have you ever heard the term flicker rate? Does that mean anything to you? Yeah, it means a lot to me. because that has an effect as well. All of our senses are not exquisite. Can you explain what flicker rate is to the average person in the audience? Flicker rate is the existence of something is not fixed.

It's here, gone, here, gone, here, gone. And the eyes are looking at something like the, the area that you're staring at, well, that's a flicker rate too because of the multiple vibrations and the repicturing of it. And so if those match up perfectly sink, it's probable that you're not going to see

anything there. It's there when you're not seeing. Seeing, not there. Not seeing there. The flicker rates are off. Interesting. So it's almost like a frame rate in a camera or something.

Yeah, exactly. You've seen pictures of helicopters where it looks like the blade's not moving and it just lifts off the ground. That's a flicker rate. The prop spin is exactly the same as the actual frame rate of the camera. So it's freeze framing the prop

only in that position all the time. And given that you're getting these sort of disparate images that your mind has to sort of of reconcile. Yes. It almost feels like whatever symbolic conventions you have in your mind somehow defines what you see. And those are developed culturally from birth. What everybody's told your reality is constructed like. It's all the things that have worked up to that point. And there's a lot of things you will never see because you just simply don't process it.

Right. It would be like if someone has never seen a violent act in their life, and they're sitting next to a table where a guy is shot and killed, the guy just simply shoots him, drops a gun, puts his hands in his pockets, and strolls out. There can be eight people watch that happen, and half of them will not have seen it. Right.

Because it's too traumatic. What you're almost saying is that reality itself might be, like, radically subjective. It is. radically see subjective. It's what we intend to see or need to see or feel like we can deal with. And so your intention somehow is super fundamental to what you actually see or your attention

in either of those. But even worse, it's the same with the ears. It's the same with taste and smell. Smell is pretty powerful, though, because smell goes right to the brain. It does not mess around with, you know, being manipulated in any way. Well, the olfactory region is right next to the hippocampus,

so very nostalgic sense. When you smell the saber-toothed tiger, you could bet it's there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you may not recognize the smell. But smelling it causes you to freeze frame and say, something's wrong. I can't go any further.

I need to back out of here. that's because the smeller just told you it's there but you have not cognitively known that yet so you find yourself going through these tests for intelligence and passing with flying colors especially under duress i was i was in the top three of all three classes that i went through that i went from the class of 130 i was second in the class so i went in another class had 25 people and i was first in that class then i went to a class of a hundred and i went to a class of a hundred and i was second in the class so i went in another class had 25 people and i was first in that class then i went to a class with five people. I was the only one in uniform, and I graduated first in that class. So everybody went off to Vietnam, and they retained me for like two weeks. One day they came in and took all my uniforms away and sent me to Lynchburg, Massachusetts, with $500, said, buy clothes. So I bought a whole lot of clothes and a suitcase. Came back, and then the next day they put me on a C-Wenberg. 1-30 at an air base close by, and I made, I think, nine stops at night, and I was in charge of two big pallets of classified material. So I had to release it to the proper people with the right

credentials. And the last stop we made was one box, and they said, take that with you. And I got off the plane, and the plane took off. And I was standing, looking at a very short runway, in the middle of nowhere, there was a shack made out of metal, and I sat on this log because there was nobody else there, and it was warm and wet. And over on the left,

the water was like pale blue, and on the right it was deep purple, and that island went off in both directions as far as you could see, but none of it was wider than three football fields. So it's like a shoe string. And I said, where in the heck am I?

And a guy pulled up in a baby blue jeep wearing shorts, white t-shirt, and flip-flops. And he walked over and he said, are you, Joe? And I said, yeah. And he said, I'm your boss. My name's Sal. And I was on a Lutheran in the Bahamas. So my first tour was 18 months within a whisper jet where I grew up. And so your initial job is transporting classified?

material or what was it? No, I can't even talk about my initial job. Okay. My cover was Airsea Rescue. Interesting. So it, it was interesting because I was a lifeguard, a Red Cross lifeguard. I could instruct people on how to swim and half the unit couldn't swim and we were supposed to be saving people. So I taught people who couldn't swim how to swim. But that was covered for something else. Right. That's like a weird movie here. Yeah, it's a sitcom or something. And it turns out there was a man there who, he was a diver,

and he used to clean the legs of oil wells out in the Gulf of Mexico until he got sucked into the mouth of the fish once. It scared him so bad. You know, a big grouper that's a sizable Volkswagen, just when they opened their mouth, creates a vacuum. And he was cleaning the legs of this, this big floating platform

with a steam wand. And this grouper was very curious. So it came up behind him. And it opened its mouth and he got sucked backwards into this fish and mouth. Oh my God. And it didn't hurt him or anything. It just, he got stuck in this grouper's mouth.

Jesus. And he spit him out finally. and it frightened him so bad he quit his job. It was rehired by the downrange people at Cape Canaver to clean the connectors on underwater cables. It was pretty gnarly, man. Speaking of gnarly and intense, you fell out of a helicopter?

No, I didn't fall out. What happened? Were you pushed out? That was in the latter part of 67. We had these helicopters that had special jobs. jobs they did. And we had three of them. And they were special because they put larger engines in them and we had electronic equipment mounted in them that did certain things, which was classified. But it really hurt the enemy what we were doing. It took them about two months to figure out what

we were doing and they took out all three helicopters in 10 days. I was in one of those and we were coming into Placu City to land. And as we, in Vietnam, because of the heat, a helicopter can't just lift off and land unless it's in a higher elevation because of the air is too warm. So at Placu City, you would take off like a plane. You start moving down the runway and lift off. The same with landing.

So we were landing this one day, coming off a mission. And they said, they call our number. and yelled break right, break right. And we rolled over to the right, and this big bomber came in and all shot up. So we had to wait until they cleared the runway. So we went out over the trees just outside the runway, and we're hovering there because it was cooler.

So because it was cool, we had the front doors open, and I was sitting on the open side to the outside with my feet on the skate. I was just being cool. In both ways. Cool sitting there and cool from the air. And we got hit right in the belly with an RPG and it blew the helicopter up. It's fireballed.

And I woke up on the ground. Jesus. Basically, I got blown out, fell probably a little over 100 feet. That's wild. Can you like you survived? I landed in the sitting position, you know, just bang with my legs out. sat. I could see my rifle in front of me.

It was dusk. And the Ford Observer who saw that happen radioed back that that he didn't think there were any survivors. He said nobody could have survived that because it's fireballed. But since we had all the doors open, everybody was blown out of the helicopter.

Nobody died, but people were really messed up. That's a miracle that you survived. Well, I tried to reach for my gun, and the pain made me pass out because I had compression frashers from my jaw to my butt. Your spine must have been just completely messed up. Oh, it was. And your nerves as a result of that. So I couldn't get to my gun, so I found a big rock,

and I pulled my boot knife out, rolled under a bush, and laid it all night. And you could hear people in the brush poking around. So I think it was VC or somebody looking for us. VC, Viet Cong. Yeah. So the next morning they found me and took me to the mass unit and put me in traction. They put these screws in my skull and hung wire with springs with these heavy sandbags. And I was on this cot.

And I was like that for maybe not quite too. weeks. And when you're stretched out like that, you become very relaxed. It takes a lot of the pain away. But then they came in one morning and the nurse said, we're going to have to get you out of here because we have a lot of people coming in. We need the room. So they took me out of traction. And I'll tell you the one thing you never want to experience is when your spine's been stretched for like 10 days or so. And then you swing your feet off the cot and stand up. Everything goes back into place.

You don't want to know what that's going to be. Oh, God. Oh, man. So I said, I'm still hurting. And they said, here. And they hand me a jar about the size of this cup full of Percocets. They said, walk it off. So I took the Percocets and went back to the unit.

Jesus, man. And I walked it off. And did you, and you, And you were eventually recovered? Or did that persist through your life? Yeah. But I recovered to the point I could deal with it. That's a true miracle.

Do you think that that experience, that sort of trauma as a result of that actually enhanced or affected your psychic ability in any way? No. No. What would enhance my ability, I would hear things, feel things, and I would just react to them without actually thinking about it. I'm looking for an example. I was at a place called Two Bits, which was a fire base. And we got hit really hard one night, and they said,

your job while you're here is if we come under attack, you go to the C-Tock, the Combat Tactical Operation Center, and go inside the bunker and run the radios, be in control of the radios. So when we were attacked, I took off, went to the bunker. And I took, I was going down the steps into the bunker. And I heard somebody yell, freeze. So I stopped and I looked around.

And the whole bunker disappeared. Just vaporized. Some guy got in there with probably a backpack of plastic and blew it up. So everybody in the bunker was either killer wounded. Jesus. And I woke up. 40 feet away, face down in the mud, with a battle going on, and found a hole and crawled into it, and stayed in a hole, hoping nobody got in a hole with me for the rest of the night.

And when dawn came, they broke contact and left. And so I got tagged for the, I had flakes of metal in me. And I got tagged for going back to the mass unit and having the metal taken out. but that's the kind of thing you hear things you will stop like when you're in the jungle you just stop because something tells you not to go any further and when that happens i i just go to ground i just drop and hide well you see more tapped into that layer than than anybody and thank you for your service because i think you're known for your service in the psychic context more than you're, you know, the fact that you're a combat veteran,

but clearly you've gone through a lot of pretty intense stuff. I spent, well, 13 years for sure overseas. And if you count temporary duty, probably a little longer than that. At what point does the CIA become interested in psychic spying, and how do you get roped into all this? Well, in 1972, Russell Targ and Hal put off, Dr. Hull put off, wrote an article that I think it was called Nature Magazine. Then they wrote a book called Mind Reach, and that got some notoriety.

And so they met this guy. He was a police commissioner, and he was an older man. He's retired. And he made a claim that he could do psychic things. So they tested him, and he could. So they had him do a remote, what they called remote viewing back then. I don't think it was called that. It was called Project ScanAid or something in the beginning.

So they brought him in, and one of the targets he did, he actually blew the target, but he got something else when he did it. The target was an old cabin in the woods, and it belonged to a CIA man who was observing all this. He brought the target in because you've got to be completely blind. So Hal put off didn't know what Starg was. Russell Targ didn't know. And neither did Pat Price. Only the CIA guy who brought it in.

And he was not present during the viewing. So what Pat Price did is instead of describing this old cabin in the woods, he described a clandestine site, which happened to be fairly close to the cabin, but over here. And when he described that, were surprised and they asked him to tell them about the inside and he started talking about this is a clandescent site there's a safes in here five five door safes and they said look at one of the safes and tell us what's in there so he named he named the project names of like three or four

safes i'm not safe files within the top drawer of the safe it turns out all that was true Wow. And when they found out, the CIA went, whoa, you know, this is really fascinating. So they came and they tested him on a couple sites in Russia, areas in Russia, which we knew existed, but could not get into. And he not only reported on them with accuracy, he talked about machinery and stuff there, like a big tower and these things they call gores, these giant slices. out of a giant steel container, that sort of thing. And they were obviously testing controlled nuclear reactions inside these steel spheres to power lasers, stuff like that.

If I'm putting my skeptic hat on, you know, somebody from the audience is hearing this, and they're saying you can get inside safes and you can draw up sensitive, you know, Soviet sites, what is protecting our Q codes right now? Right, nothing. Really? Really?

So basically anybody engaging in psychic spying or remote viewing can access the nuclear codes. Yeah, except that it's probably one in 2,000 people would have to be interested, trained for a lot of years to get to that level. And then you'd have to have a natural capacity for it. And most don't. And, but that doesn't mean it can't be used for intelligence purposes. I can take someone and instruct them on how to do remote viewing and give them a target that I don't even know what it is. It will be in a sealed envelope and they'll tell me stuff about it that's valuable.

You did this with me and a friend. Yeah. And my friend got it right. Yeah. It freaked this all out. I did, I did a program in Japan. where I had a fourth grade class in the Northern Ireland, Elkado, and I had a fourth grade class down in Kyushu,

and I was in Tokyo, and we put a row of fax machines in, and I had a seal envelope, which nobody knew what was in it, under a red cloth on a podium, and what I did is I train the two classes of kids in like 10 minutes on how to do a row. remote viewing. And then we had them do the remote viewing and draw the first thing that came in their mind. And they faxed it in and we posted all those returns. So we had 70 pictures on the wall. Seven or eight of them at the bottom were just lines, just straight lines, just a mix, a massive

straight lines. Everything above it, almost 70 pictures were stars. Every way you could draw a star. five-pointed star, star David, asterisk star, six-pointed star. I mean, every way you could possibly draw a star, these kids did that. And there were a multitude of different stars that were alike. Wow. And we pinned them all up on the board. And then after they all had faxed something in, we went to a commercial break. When we came back, I pulled the folder out, the yellow folder out from under the red cloth, cut the end off.

and pulled the target out and showed it to the kids on the television. And we had cameras in both school rooms. What the target was was a small aquarium with a starfish stuff. Wow. Do you have this? The kids went crazy. And this is televised? Yeah.

That's amazing. 31 million people. Can we get the footage? I don't have, I don't, well, maybe I do. I'm sending all this stuff to Rice University. Very cool. The archives of the importance. possible.

Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And after 10 minutes of training. Yeah. And 400 people in the audience pulled out their handkerchiefs. They were all so emotionally taken by that. They were.

It's unbelievable. Do you think kids have a kind of preternatural ability to do this? No, they just don't know they can't. Well, that's it. Yeah. They haven't been spoiled by their training all their lives. Yeah. Remote.

People, what people need to understand, remote viewing is not about learning anything new. It's about unlearning all the bad habits that we make about deep into conclusions, making assumptions on very little information. Well, you've given me all sorts of interesting information across the years. I remember when I was asking you, how do you do this? You said something super interesting. You were like, I tell my ego to run away. Yeah. I give my ego something to do. If I can't get my ego out of it, I'll put my notebook in my pocket and go out and cut grass. And so that's fascinating, and that somehow allows you to be a better receptacle for...

Yeah, yeah. You got to get your ego out of it. And then the other interesting thing that you've said, and this is a little better known, is that you have to separate the transmission or download from the analysis. Yeah, well, actually you need to analyze it, but you don't up analyze it, you down analyze it. What does that mean? For instance, your subconscious has no language. the information probably comes out of the subconscious.

So since it has no language of its own, it borrows from your memory. So let's say the target is a sewage processing plant. Few people have ever seen a sewage processing plant, but it looks somewhat similar to an Olympic swimming pool. Right. So your subconscious will give you the image of the last swimming pool you saw. and the thing you don't want to do is you don't want to come to the conclusion based on that that it's an Olympic swimming pool.

That would be a mistake. What you do is you tear it apart. Why did I get the image of the swimming pool? What about that is real and what about that is not? And so you do things. You ask yourself questions about that entire thing that you just got. Things like, would I swim in it? Oh, God, no.

Why not? Well, taste it and find out. So you're asking kind of like behavioral proxy questions or something. Right, and you break it down into the base element. Oh, that's fascinating. Without deciding what it is. So you would never say a sewage processing plant. You would say things like round pool, some kind of fluid, stuff floating in the fluid,

spinning something spinning in there a chemical it's breaking down a bad smell it's almost like you have this multi-dimensional database in your head and you have these connections between sewage swimming pool and you have to actually sever those connections and just go directly at the target through these other kind of you analyze you break it down through analysis by asking your mind what feels good what doesn't feel good about the image and and you You can tear it down to pieces. Now, if you learn to do that, the first thing you want to do is a sketch. And the reason you do a sketch is it comes out of a different area of your mind.

Sketches are like gestaltz. Let's say it's a bridge. If you try to sketch a bridge, you may not know it's a bridge, but you'll do a sweep, you put something on both ends and you put a repeating pattern like x is all connected together that's the grid work underneath the bridge okay you won't you won't draw what you see but you'll draw the parts of pieces and make you want to say something as soon as you do that you don't come to a conclusion you retaste the target and you put down something that you have down analyzed.

So by the time an analyst gets it, it doesn't look like anything specific, but the analyst you have to remember is working on a problem that he has collected all the data that's possible he or she. And so they're sitting at a desk. They know everything about the target

except the answer they're looking for. They get your material and it guides them to an area that they may look at a different way. and they'll just go, wow, that's it. That's the answer. But the answer is not displayed. It's just referenced in a way.

So the other parts of it are when you're doing, when you're learning to do this, you have a monitor or somebody who can guide you. They act as your left brain because you want to be totally in the right brain when you're doing this. And I'm saying that, not as a reality, but as a function.

Because in reality, right-left brain does not reside in right-and-left-side of the hemispheres. It's actually in both hemisphere. It's a way of thinking. Right brain is super esoteric. Intuitive. Yeah, intuitive, all that sort of thing. Left brain is analytic. It's where you would make a conclusion.

But you have to be very careful about that. So the person who's doing the left brain thinking is the monitor. So let's say the remote viewer is getting something and they write something in. That left brain monitor can say, I can't read that. Print it. You print it. That makes it clear. So they're operating to ensure that whatever is represented is good enough that it says something.

Can be analyzed. Yeah, can be analyzed. So this whole process. And what we found over time is that for some reason, when someone nails the target, it sometimes is because the analysts are not the analyst. The monitor has asked exactly the right question to elicit the right answer.

So in reality, both are being psychic. One knows it's being psychic. The other person doesn't. Oh, that's fascinating. Because people think of the analyst It's just kind of this like full left brain thing, but it actually takes intuition to know any question to ask. Now, there's a couple examples of experiments that were done by the Russians

that they totally bought into because it worked three times perfectly. So they said, this must be the way it works. And so because of that, it's how they ran their second unit. when we got that material from them when perestroika came and we went over there and met them and got the whole box of material and brought it back what we discovered was the experiment was done perfectly everybody involved in the experiment was completely blind okay but at the very outset when they it was all done with target mice at the very outset when they went to this place where they actually breed target mice and control mice, they all come from the same litter.

So this guy went there and said, we need you to randomly number 12 target mice and 12 control mice. And the guy said, okay, and he used a random number generator to do that. He'd push a button and would give him a number. He'd shaved the mouse tummy and put it on with us. he'd tattoo it on the mouse. So he did that with 24 mice, 1 through 24. Some of them were controls. He wrote them on the paper, wouldn't they were controls.

Some were randomly selected target mice. So all the numbers were different. They put them all in a cage and sent them to the Euro Mountain 1600 kilometers away. Now, as soon as you put all the mice in one cage, you're competing for sex and food, so their anxiety goes up. So the task for their remote viewers, so to speak, their psychics,

was decide which are the target mice, which are the control mice, and only in the target mice, raise their anxiety high enough to make them sick. They did that. They sent the mice to another lab that didn't know what was going on, and they killed the mice, analyzed the chemicals in their brain, and listed the mice from top to bottom, most anxiety ridden to least anxiety ridden,

and drew a line between the top 12 and bottom 12. It was a perfect match. All the bottom ones were controls. All the top ones were target mice. Wow. They did that three times, and outside of one mouse bear, it worked perfectly, all three times.

So they taught their psychics to target American Congress, Congressman, Senators, Cabinet, President. Do you know of any specifics there as far as... Yeah, it didn't work. It didn't work because the methodology didn't work. And what was the fatal flow? What was wrong with the experiment?

Everything was done double blind. Do you tell me? I will tell you. The guy they told to sort the mice, by virtue of the fact that he was sorting controls from target mice, He did that psychically to give them their answer at the end. So he was the only psychic functioning person in the whole thing.

Their psychics were not. Oh, that's fascinating. You understand? Yes, your selection process is going to be all off. I've used that experiment to give presentations at one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in America. Wow. And I said, the reason you come up with a drug every now and then that cost you over a billion dollars and 10 years to manufacture and it fails is because you don't believe in

psychic functioning. Right. And somewhere in your process, you have a psychic. Right. And they're giving you exactly what you want to see. Right. So because you don't buy into it, it doesn't work. It costs you a ton of money.

Well, yeah, you get into these, because of that kind of epistemological, tautological loops. Right, yeah. Because if you have, you know, it's like whenever I put out anything around this, subject. You have to get, well, James Randi, you know, you should win a million dollars if you are able to prove this. No, you don't. I can tell you about that too. Well, yeah, because I mean, we're talking about it right now. But if there is an effect inherently, then there are experimental effects and there are witness observation effects. Right. And so if anybody present comes in, you know, completely trying to

be a skeptic, it's going to affect the experiment itself. Yeah. The scientific method involves a a priori skepticism. And so we're talking about kind of an epistemological paradigm. shift, not just a scientific paradigm shift. Except your perceptions are wrong. What do you mean? I'm going to tell you why. Yeah. Because there are things from a scientific standpoint that when we tested them, absolutely

guarantee that a psychic function will not occur. Absolutely guarantee. And what are those? And you can test it a million times that it just will not work. How do you do that? How do you turn off the psychic function? The sun is above the horizon. on the earth from where you're standing,

you're looking face into the sun. You just did a fourfold reduction in your psychic functioning. Interesting. Where you are on the planet, at what time and what day has an effect. Why is that? Okay, no, I'm not finished yet. Okay. There's things like that we know to be true.

What else? Well, I'm not going to go into all of them because there's too many. Okay. But if they list all those things and hand it to the, somebody and say if you're doing any three of these you will not function right okay and then somebody comes in the door and says we have a problem we have somebody being tortured to death we need to know where they are you'll violate it all because of the intent intent overrides everything wow so what you're saying is correct but that the intent is an imperative you will override it all so there are exceptions and you got to

watch out for that because people who say, no, we did everything to block viewing, they're wrong. You can't block it completely. Well, you're almost, this is, you know, kind of an extrapolation, but it's almost implying that there's an intelligence on the other side aiding you because if your intent matters at all, like, why should it? You know, if it's just this kind of mechanical deterministic scientific process, why should your intent be able to override any of these conditions? Well, it's intention, attention, to detail, and expectation for outcome.

Okay. If you're the only one dealing with that, it'll work. If there's five people involved in that experiment and none of them are focused on that, it may fail because there is just too many possibilities for failure as a result, because the intent is not just your intent. it's everybody's intent that's involved in the experiment if it's a postgrad student

being paid to act as a monitor you don't care what happens automatically any scientist coming into the room which is what you're talking about they don't care if it works or not they get to publish they get famous for their publishing so whether they're successful or unsuccessful is immaterial because they're supposed to be

indifferent to the outcome okay but in remote viewing, if you have a scientist, monitor, all the people involved, five or six people, and you do a remote viewing, and the intent is to save a life,

everybody's on board and it'll work every single time. Fascinating. Yeah. So there's a lot to this that comes out in the science and the study of it. If you don't know the science in detail, it's so easy to fail, screw up all those kinds of things.

With regard to the Amazing Randy, the payoff was not a million dollars. It was an investment that would pay you eventually a million dollars over 30 years. Jesus. What kind of intent is that? Secondly, he's the one who picks the target, does the judging and tells you whether you're right or wrong. So he could rig it.

I'd never participate in an experiment like that. I've been challenged so many times to do a live remote viewing double blind on camera in a primetime way in front of 25 million or more people that anybody else would shy away from that. Yeah. It's been successful every time. Well, yeah, you've done more televised remote viewings than anybody in the history. Yeah. And what's interesting to me, the most controlled. example of that I ever did was for National Geographic

in the San Francisco Bay Area. They used three different film crews, so nobody was talking to anybody else. It was protected targets. It was randomly selected. I was completely blind. Ed was completely blind. The entire film crew in the room was completely blind,

and I absolutely nailed it. You get a feeling like she had to park somewhere and threw a tunnel or something, or under an overpass. of a walkway of some kind under an overpass, an open area in the center. And there's some kind of artwork, some kind in the center. But this artwork is very bizarre. Set and gravel, stone.

And when they put it on television, they said, but you can't tell much from one result. They knew when they said that, that I had done probably 12,000 of those. What were the targets? Do you remember? the target that I did for them yeah it was the end of the Dumbarton bridge wow in fact I did it the entire remote unit was a minute 30 seconds and they went I heard the director go and I said I guess that's too fast

yeah national television and I said so what I'm going to do is I'll sit in the front seat you put a camera behind me and I'll tell you how to get to the target wow which I did is you taught him yeah Unbelievable. Yeah, you clearly are not only precocious yourself, but you're amazing at teaching others. No. If you understand it. People, unfortunately, people in Stargate program that came after the original six were terrified that they couldn't like do it blind. so they got hints. I will tell you that if it's not done, completely blind,

and you don't understand all those other things about the science, in all probability it will fail more times than it will succeed. If you truly participate and do it in agreement with the science that says, don't do this, do this,

or if you do this, it'll fail. if you pay attention to that, you're going to be seven-fold, more probable of being successful. That seems to be a through line in everything with quote-unquote parapsychology. So we're in life. Yeah. If you take a shortcut, the thing doesn't really work. Exactly right. And so we're talking about things that involve our perceptive abilities and our ability to kind of render the material world visually and memory-wise.

And our ability to do that is somehow super dependent on going through the proper process and being instructed properly and not circumventing that kind of inorganically. There's perceptions about it. Like I'll give you a major perception that is like crazy. People say, okay, it's remote viewing. Can a blind person do it who's been blind for life? I believe so. They're better than most. Yeah, makes sense.

Because they spend their whole lives imagining what the world outside their skull looks like. They've been remote viewing longer than anybody. Well, as the saying goes, when one sense goes, others get stronger. It gets a lot stronger. And if the mind is a sense, then... So the other thing that I think is very strange is no matter what you do to demonstrate it, it always goes back to religion when somebody wants to evaluate it. It's like if it doesn't fit the religious belief...

Yes. It's the work of the devil. I think somehow science has become religious. It's become dogmatic. Oh, it is very dogmatic. And the priestly citadel in this case just wears like lab coats. The origin story is basically natural selection and Darwin sort of this primitive to progress deterministic thing.

But it's completely religious because there are all these gaps in that story. Carl Popper's famous philosophy of science guy used to call those materialist promissory notes because there are all these gaps. Exactly right. And we would just, on loan, we would say, you know, we could fill in these gaps, you know, with these placeholders

that actually don't make any sense. And there are tons of anomalies. So, but I want to, you mentioned James Randy. Yeah. And, you know, he's this magician who would debunk a lot of this stuff, but not.

Of course you will. And kind of a bad faith actor. He actually had a contemporary named Ray Hyman, who was, you know Ray Hyman. You know Ray Hyman. So University of Oregon. And he came into studying

the Stargate data. Right. Very skeptically, he's again, a colleague of James Randis, along with Jessica Utt, who is the president of the American Statistical Society.

I know her personally, too. And also you hear her speak, and she is just completely beyond reproach as far as her integrity. She's probably one of the top five statisticians in the world. 100%. And she goes through all the Stargate data, and she says not only is this replicable,

the P values, which is, you know, basically the probability that you would get there. stuff off the chart way way more replicable than psychology for example which we all take pretty seriously and so i think it's it's important context for the eyes but let's get back to the core chronology of stargate itself so 1972 the cia starts to get intrigued i've heard from how putoff who's one of the you know founders of stargate along with russell targ that another guy named ingo swan who's this artist in new york city from a monody center in new york to california Yeah, and he was eccentric, he was a gay artist, and the way Put-Off speaks about it is that they put a thermister inside of a Faraday cage, and then Ingo Swan was able to affect that with his mind. Is there something to that story?

We did five years of experiments to prove psychokinesis. That's affecting something with the mind. In five years and a whole lot of millions of dollars, we were never able to protect the target from outside effects. So you can never say the person did it or a truck hitting a metal plate on Route 5. Wouldn't a Faraday chamber do it? No. Why not?

because there's a million things that can make it go up, like with a strain gauge. There's a million strain gauge events that will occur from a short at the bottom of an elevator shaft to half a mile away. So there's so many things in reality that will cause it to happen. Just because somebody walks in the room and they look and it happens doesn't mean they did it. Okay. You got to be really careful about that. We took... But if you're blocking the electric field and the magnetic field, what can get in there? You can't do it. You can't fully block that? No. We put things in a small Faraday cage. We doubled it. We floated the whole thing on air.

Yeah. Okay. We put it in a room that was concrete, 30 inches thick. Okay. We grounded everything. We did everything you can possibly do. to isolate the target. It was going off all night long when nobody was even there. Oh, really? Yeah, so if you can't isolate the target, and we spent a huge amount of money trying to do that,

if you could never isolate the target, how can you say it's a human doing it? Do you think Ingo Swan was a good remote viewer? Oh, he's an excellent remote viewer. Okay. I knew him really well. We used to eat dinner together because we were both employed at the same place.

Yeah, absolutely. And what were some instances? There's some famous stories I know about with you, but any of that come to mind of the early days, you know, great successes. Well, I can't speak to his successes because he did everything in the lab. And not in the wild, so to speak, you know, where it's a real test. Do you want to tell your famous submarine story? Well, I can.

It was not just me, by the way. It was another man named Hartley Trent. We both worked a submarine. He's dead now. he was a better viewer and I'll ever be. You need to understand that. Well, that's a lot coming from you. Yeah.

It's high bar. There were two people better than me than I will ever be. So if you can imagine that. Who are the two? Hartley Trent. Harley Trent and another guy that I can, I promised him I'd never say us name in public. Okay. He's a retired colonel.

She's going to make people more intrigued to know. That's too bad. None survived anyway. So one of the things that we had as a target, it was a building, a really huge building. You could put like the Mall of the Americas in Minneapolis inside that building, and it wouldn't touch the walls or the ceiling. What? Yeah. And it was detached from water.

It had no relationship to the harbor. And it was set off the harbor. And it had guards, fences, everything around it. and they had railroad tracks going in, carrying in tons of stuff, and coming on empty. And they couldn't buy a picture of the inside of that building. They were offering, I think, $2 million at one time for one picture of the inside of the building. Couldn't get it. It was bumped up from a number of different intelligence agencies to the National Security Council,

which is as high as you can go. Absolutely. That's run by the vice president. It has representatives from all the other agencies there. What year was this? That was 79. Okay, so under card. The latter part of 79.

Yeah. That was like my third target that I ever worked on. I don't know which one it was for Harley, but we both worked on it simultaneously. We just didn't know each one of us was doing that. What I got was a really unique submarine because they were violating one of the major loss of submarines. They were putting two submarines together.

It said it looked like two giant seas coming together. And they were using a whole new kind of welding methodology, which were eye-intensity lasers. They were welding with a certain protocol. And the hull was done in a way that I can't go into, but it was different. And I said it were 20 tubes, but they were all slanted, which was the first submarine ever built with slanted tubes. Up until then, the Soviet Navy would have to stop to launch, which made them a target.

So they slanted the tubes, so it could be launching while it was moving. Every rocket on board was a Murphi, which meant it had five guideable warheads. So when it reached apex, the warheads could detach and go to different cities. Every warhead was like 50 megatone. Hiroshima was something. less than one megaton. So you can imagine the damage you would do. So these are hydrogen bombs?

It could sit, yes. It could park 100 miles off America's coast and eradicate us in 18 minutes. It would be nothing we could do. And that's really the front line of nuclear war. Right. That was the most astounding weapon system ever built. Okay. And it was the TK 089, which was the prototype for that kind of.

submarine. It had many of the attributes that came out in Hunt for Red October, seven years later, eight years later, I can't remember now, but all these things. And we filed that report. We did that in about four hours, filed that report with the National Security Council. It was sent back immediately. The head analyst was the guy in charge of the whole Russian floor at Langley. His name is Robert Gates. Yeah. Langley, CIA. Oh, Robert Gates.

He ended up becoming Secretary of Defense. He later became the director of CIA and the secretary of defense. Okay. He sent it back, note on top, total fantasy. Because they didn't think that submarine could exist. And, well, it wasn't even connected to water. So how could it? Right.

And so he sent it back. And it had been taken to the National Security Council by another admiral by the name of Jake Stewart. And I knew Jake really well. And when he brought it back, he said, he was sitting with me in a room, and he said, this really upsets you, don't it?

And I said, no, I don't care. He said, no, you care, because there's a red line going up your neck. You're really pissed. So I said, no, no. I said, he says, what do you want me to do? And I said, take it back.

And he goes, okay. And he stood up. And I said, wait. I put a, paper on top and I said, we'll be launched in 112 days, Jay. So on the way, he stopped at the National Reconnaissance office because he knew that usually I'm not wrong, especially when I'm pissed. So he arranged for 114 days out to have pictures taken of the harbor where it would have

have to be. At the same time, I attached another note. Somebody asked me how big is this submarine? Because I was saying this is really a huge submarine. And my answer to that was it's 30 feet shy of the length of the Soviet aircraft carrier. Oh, my God. It's a monster, okay? How big is that for the audience, scale-wise?

I don't know about link. That's why I had to say 30 feet shy at the length of the Soviet aircraft carrier. Yep. You can imagine something that launches jets match with a submarine. Massive. I said it was between 60 and, I think 60 feet and something else across. Mm-hmm. Wide.

Very wide. Yep. Okay. So he arranged that overhead to take pictures. 114 days out when the pictures were taken, it was the side of the building was gone, trench cut to the harbor, and the submarine was tied up. to the side of a Soviet aircraft carrier to block view of it

from the entry to the harbor. And this is north of the Arctic Circle, so the harbor was frozen a long time, usually every year. So they had these two giant ice breakers sitting there. They had broken up all the ice in the harbor, and it was sitting tied up to the aircraft carrier, and it actually is 33 feet shy the length of the Soviet aircraft carriers.

I miss it by three feet. All the bay doors were open. So we collected more intelligence in four days on that one submarine than the entire Soviet subpack in history. That's remarkable. It then disappeared. No one ever saw it again. And they made eight more and nobody ever knew about the other eight. But you can assume, based on the data we were able to collect, we defeated their weapon system because now we could identify it easily in the water,

put a hunter killer on it and track it everywhere it went. That's a miracle. Yeah. Kind of like possibly global cataclysm-saving intelligence that you provided. That's primarily why I got to Legion America. That's amazing. Did Robert Baker ever come back? Say, hey, Joe, I'm sorry.

I embarrassed him badly with it. And I embarrassed him three more times. Did you? Yeah. What's another example? He won't be in the room with me. Really? Yeah. If he comes in a room like the congressional cafeteria or something, and I see him, I will stand up and go, hey, Bobby, how's it going, buddy? And I put my hand out.

Out the door goes. Any other examples you could talk about? No. We can't talk about the other examples. Okay. But that's the kind of successes we were having. Harley Trent shared in that, but he died, unfortunately, relatively soon after that. Can I add one more story to just the car.

harder year. Yes. Rosemary Smith is a psychic. And I think a TU22 Russian bear bomber had basically dropped lower than the tree top. It had been downed in Africa. All of Africa was given as the target to this psychic spy named Rosemary Smith in California. And she draws a three square mile little circle right in Zaire. and it's basically where they find the TU22.

There were three psychics. Yeah. They all drew circles. They were all in three different cities when they did it. That's amazing. All the same map. Really? And they brought the maps together, all three circles interlocked.

So why? And Jimmy Carter says that was the craziest thing I've ever experienced in my presidency. He was holding our file in his arm when he said it. It was a green file with a red stripe. It said, it said, grill flame on it. it. And one of the reporter, he was saying, we found the Russian plane, we've returned everything on it to the Russians. What was important about us was carrying two city-busting nukes. Everybody was looking for it, especially every terrorist organization in the world.

Nobody could find it because it disappeared over the Congo, supposedly. Harley Trent, in fact, said it was parked on a road right there in the area. of Zaire. Nobody could understand that. What he was saying the whole time, roads in the Congo and Zaire are rivers. There are no road roads.

Right. All roads in Central Africa are rivers. And that's what he was saying the whole time. He didn't know he was saying that. Needed some more down analysis. But that actually happened.

And when he said that, our cover name changed we got moved around the office changed everything changed because the president basically outed us on national television right that turned on remember anderson the guy who would write articles on it everything no who's Anderson he was in uh i can't remember for it was the Washington Post or uh I think it was the Washington Post he started to cover the psychic spy program. Yeah, he started covering hunting for information on the psychics buying program. Interesting. And he would pick up little tidbits and put out articles on it. But it made it more difficult for us. Joe, any other core stories that you can talk about that aren't classified from that

time? There's a lot of them that I could talk about if I had the sheet with me. We had what's called the the blue book, the blue briefing books. It was two books, two folders, with 160 successes in it, which were just like the submarine, okay? That kind of weight. That's amazing. I'll give you an example of another one.

The MX Missile Program. Remember that? They were going to produce another 30,000 miles of railroad tracks. They were going to have hundreds of cargo cars, railroad cars, they would all be identical right down to the serial numbers on the locks. Only one in 20 would have an actual launcher in it with an ICBM. And once a week, they'd shift them all around, so no one would ever know where the actual launchers were.

And that would make mutual shared destruction more important. It's kind of like a shell game. Yeah, like a shell game. It's based on the old shell game with much higher stakes. the name of the game is MX It's object To hide our newest ICBMs from the enemy Ensuring their survivability

The enemy will know where a missile could be Just as we know where the P could be But not where it is for sure Instead of three shells Each MX missile will be hidden In any one of 23 protective shelters And what we did is we notified We wrote a white paper

It's called a white paper one paragraph, we sent it to the Situation Room in the White House and said, it won't work. Why not? Because we can tell you where it is every time. They actually tested that for a year, and

they had an actual live new and possible storage areas for it. And once a week they moved it, and every time they moved it, we told them where it was. As a result, they canceled the MX Missile Program, which

ticked the Air Force off mightily because they were put in charge of it. It was a hundred billion dollar project. Oh my God. We saved the government $100 billion. And I have a letter in my file. I know Dr. May has one in his from Senator Cohen thanking us for saving $100 billion. Also remarkable, but would the Soviets have figured it out given that they had sort of some core deficiencies in their own psychic spy program? Maybe, maybe not. Right. They still could have figured it out even with the flaw.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, who knows? And that's one of the problems because I got brought into the project in October of 78. By July of 79, we knew there was no defense against remote fueling. So for the next 20-something years and millions and millions of dollars, we tried to develop a defense against it. There still is no defense against remote viewing. It fails on its own enough.

I mean, 40% of the time, it just doesn't work. But all intelligence modalities fail. Exactly. So it's not inferior to other ones. And when I hear that the program was sunsetted because it only works 60% of the time, that makes no sense, as well as the rationale that there's no defense against it, But if it's offensively useful, why would you use it, especially if it's stopping, you know, mutually assured destruction as it has at least 160 times, probably more, because that was early on in the program. My area of expertise was ICBM sites.

Okay. Big, large areas where rockets were in the ground. Wow. But you could see the shielding over them, so that was easy to see with overhead pictures. But when I hear stuff like that, there has to be a program now, if that's what. The pictures were perfect. And I even asked them once, why am I remote viewing something and you can take perfect pictures up?

And they said, here's the thing. You draw the whole place. So when we take a picture, we can only get the surface. We match the surface against your drawing. And if you're 80% correct, we can assume you're 80% correct about what's under the ground. And we can retarget those areas with different technology. Wow.

To prove it. Wow. So that's the value of remote viewing. It can be used a million different ways. But if the incremental value is understanding on a more granular level what stockpiles are underground, how would that ever get sunsetted and taken out of government? It got sunsetted because a vast majority of senators and congressmen caught dead standing next to a remote viewing psychic would never get reelected.

because it was used as a weapon against them in the re-election. I think if I'm the government and I'm hearing these things, I would immediately put a boatload of money towards remote viewing right now. I'm just telling you, I'm telling you the reality. Because of a stigma. Here's the thing. We were basically super supported by five presidents. Okay.

We were super supported by senators and congressmen who could not be hurt. like Senator Cohen, Senator John Glenn. These senators had been in Congress so long and were so powerful. They're up here, and they could say, yeah, I use those guys, and nobody could say, that's crazy to them. They'd still get reelected. At the very bottom, agents in the field who came and asked for help, hundreds of lives we saved there,

they knew us intimately. They loved us because of what the data was that we could give them as early warning. They really needed us. It's the bureaucrats in the middle. Okay? Yeah. Who are afraid for their job,

afraid to get reelected, and the guys in the middle are the guys who have to justify and write up why you need so many tanks and why you have to start. and why you have to spend the money on it, and people are going, starting to ask, well, if you can just walk in and plan a charge and blow something up,

why do you need to tank if remote viewing tells you where to put the explosive? It's always the middling bureaucrats that have the most perverse incentives. And there's this concept, you know, concept Baumol's cost disease where the objective of a bureaucracy is just to extend the bureaucracy. And it's not to do anything more efficiently, actually.

That's the opposite. The other part of it, it's even worse. It's the bureaucrat politician in the middle that actually starts the war. That's right. Okay. Has no skin in the game, and his kids and family will never be affected by it. What's wrong with that picture? Dr. Strangelove.

Yeah. During the Vietnam War, I was brought TDI, temporary duty, to the Pentagon. because demonstrators were throwing balloons full of blood and stuff on military going in and out of the front entry of the Pentagon. My job was to capture some kid that was throwing stuff, bring them in, fingerprint them, tell them what was going to happen to them, and then release them, scare them into not doing it anymore. I didn't do that. I'd grab up three or four and I'd cuff them together. and a string and I'd take them under the bridge where nobody could see. And I know they thought I'm going to be beating up down here.

I'd take them down there and I'd say, don't panic. I'm not going to do anything to hurt you. You need to understand this. We don't start wars in the Pentagon. We're forced to finish them. You want to stop this war, go to the other end of the mall, and hit the guys in the suits with the balloons.

And then I'd release them and they run away. Well, what I forgot, they said got tamas all over the front of the Pentagon. So they'd see me taking these kids under there and then them running away. So my three-month TDII was cut to two weeks and I was sent to Europe. Wow.

I didn't, I, you know, I can understand why they didn't want to go to Vietnam. Yeah. It wasn't righteous. No. When I was there, I could tell you it wasn't righteous. Yeah. Well, you have all, I mean, you just look at the Pentagon papers, and you look at how cynical the discussions around the Vietnam War were at the highest levels in the Pentagon and Oval Office.

And I have seen two letters, and I did my last college course to get my degree was on the politics of the Vietnam War at the end. And I saw a letter from Kissinger to President Nixon saying, I'm not going back over there to negotiate for, any more prisoners because I hate those brown people. I don't like their food. I don't like their smell. I don't want to be there anymore. And Nixon said to him, you don't have to because anybody in Laos or Cambodia, we said, should never be there in the first place, so we don't have to worry about them. So all the enlisted captured in Vietnam were all taken to Tiger Cages in Laos and Cambodia. they all died there because they were written off. It's horrible.

It's horrific. And, yeah, Kissinger was kind of the ultimate, I don't know, cynic. It was like the world was his sandbox. Right. And he actually studied at Harvard under Tom Schelling. And Tom Schelling and a bunch of his, you know, classmates there all, like, tried to do an intervention at the White House. And they're like, what are you doing, man? Like, what's gotten into you?

I think the whole thing, the whole, you know, there's all based on this, like, domino theory, this, you know, which was, I think, a misreading of George Kennan's long telegram. At the end of the Second World War, you know, Hocci Men fought for us against Japanese in the whole war. His Vietnam did that. His Vietnam and he were never communist. They were nationalist, okay? When the war ended, oh, they did that, by the way, because John Donovan delivered a very much. very rare butterfly collection to him, at parachuting end with it taped to his chest.

He started the, or was the main progenitor of the OSS time. Wild Bill Donovan. Yeah, Wild Bill Donovan. Yeah. He talked Ho Chi Men into fighting for us. And so the Vietnamese fought for us during the whole war. At the end of the war,

Ho Chi Men said an impassioned letter to our president. And what he said in the letter is that here's a copy of our national constitution. It was identical to ours. He had direct quotes from Jefferson. I mean, it was, it was exactly. They were totally allied with us. Yes.

It was against the French. And all he wanted was, please do not allow the French to come back to claim their Indochina plantations. Yeah. Okay. The French, on the other hand,

said, oh, you're starting NATO? well, we're not going to be a member unless you support us in our quest to go back to Indochina. So the president made a decision. NATO was more important than Vietnam. Yeah, there you go. And I think Ho Chiman felt like Wild Bill Donovan had saved him. He did. Yeah, and he felt a real collegiality there.

Yeah. And then, yeah, things just took a weird turn in it. And I think that was maybe. one of the primary reasons why the CIA then went into South Vietnam and tried to consolidate Vietnam into their version of a single country, which you can't do. You cannot enter a foreign country and try to run it. It never works.

It also, yeah, the nation building thing doesn't work, and it begets a misunderstanding of history, or belies, rather. You know, with Vietnam, Afghanistan, you have certain territories. that whether it's China vis-a-vis, you know, Vietnam or the Russians and the British vis-a-vis Afghanistan, you're not going to win. Afghanistan will never capitulate anybody. The amount of dialects, how tough the people are, the nooks and crannies they know how to hide in that you're not familiar with, you're just screwed at the outset. It doesn't matter how much manpower or resources you have. There's a guy that lives just across the border in Pakistan.

Dan. He lives in a mud hut. He's got a big point of granite rock sticking up out of his floor. He makes A-Ks out of old pieces of aircraft. Wow. He hammers it out with an open fire on that granite rock. And they work. Now, they're not very accurate, but they never jam and they work. You get back to truck over them. They'll still work. Well, that says it all. That says it all right there. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Absolutely. It's remarkable. So I want to get into some weirder stuff because you, I mean, you've made headlines for remote viewing Mars, for example. Yeah. That was a DOD target, by the way. So explain the context. Well, how is that a DOD target? Well, one of the things that they found out is that I was having spontaneous out of bodies since my near-death experience in 1970.

I've had multiple near-death experiences, but that one was really profound. Was this falling out of the helicopter? No, this was being poisoned. Being poisoned? Yeah, I was delivered DOA to a clinic in Paso-Germany from Austria, and I had not had a heartbeat for almost 40 minutes.

What? Now, I'm not going to tell you that my heart wasn't beating for 40 minutes. It could have been beating once every five minutes. But it was enough to keep me alive. Oh, my goodness. When I got to the clinic, the doctor there saved my life, basically. I got transfusions, a whole bunch of stuff.

But I was comatose for 20-something hours. And I suddenly sat up. I became conscious and I sat up. And the German patient, the room with me, looked at me and ran out of the room. He went out like a skulled duck. I looked at him and he said, God's a white light, you can't die, so chill. Out the door.

I found out later, when I looked at him, he said, God's a white light. God is a white light. Wow. You can't die. And he looked at me and freaked and ran out of the door. Later, he said, when I looked at him, my eyes had turned crystal blue

and I had fire coming out of them. No, wow. Yeah, that's what he said. So the doctor came in, and I said to the, I turned to the doctor, and I smiled, and I said, oh, I'm still here. You know, God's who I like, you can't die. Well, he sedated me. I went back to sleep on the way to drive into Munich. They told me to mention Munich, Germany, put me in a rest home.

That's when they told my wife, my first wife, that I was still alive for almost a week. She thought I was dead. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Do you remember, I mean, you're coming out of this experience saying God is a white light, you can't die. Yeah. Do you remember that as being sort of a conversion experience? Did you feel a sense of divine contact?

It was so profound. I just can't tell you. When it happened, I was getting ready to eat at dinner with my wife, who they had brought to meet me. We were going to stay a weekend in this guest house. And she was going back to quarters and I was going back to work. I can't tell you what I was doing, but I was going to. going back to work. And the guy that brought her was my friend that worked for me. So he brought her there. He was going to leave and we talked to him into staying and having dinner with us. And then he was

going to leave. We were going to stay there a couple days. Well, we had before dinner drinks. Well, I drank part of the drink. I started getting feeling like I was going to projectile vomit. Oh, no. So I didn't want to be in the restaurant doing it. So I said, said, excuse me, and I headed for the door. And I was in a rush. When I hit the door, it was a swinging glass door. When I hit it with my hand, it was like somebody snapped their fingers. And I was standing outside on a cobblestone road with my hands out like this.

And it was raining. It was a soft, like one of the soft summer rains, you know. And the rain was going through my palms. And I went, what the hell? And I looked up and there's this figure half in and half out of the, the door. So I drifted over there. And as I was, that should have been a giveaway, by the way. I drifted over there. As I was going over, my friend came out, pulled me up in his lap. Back then, there was no such thing as CPR. So he started punching me in the chest and yelling at me,

breathe, you know. And every time he hit me in the chest, I was in my body in excruciating pain. looking up at his face, and I was trying to say, stop. And about the time I get the stop out, I'd be back standing on the cobblestowns watching. This happened like four or five times, and then I stayed out. And I watched. And he got up. My wife dropped to the pavement with me, and then he showed up with my car and put me fireman's carry into the back seat.

It was a little bug, a Volkswagen bug. And they took off, and I was like, whoa, wait a minute. So I'm like zipping along beside the car. Back then, they had to go through two checkpoints, Austria to Germany, which meant running the checkpoint, which they did, and drove a little ways, and went out and back in again, because they had to get to the city called Penn. which is down in the southern tip of Bera.

And he got me to a clinic. And when they got there, it was just getting dark. Just getting dark meant it was around 7.50, 8 o'clock. He picked me out of the car, fireman's carry. He's a huge guy. And he carried me to the door of the clinic. And it was locked. And I'm standing there watching all this.

And I'm like, well, that's weird. why would they lock the door? Maybe I'm dreaming. And he started kicking the glass door. And the inner door opened and the doctor came out with the keys. What I didn't know is in Germany at 8 o'clock they lock all the doors. So you go to an emergency room or clinic. You get in by ringing a bell.

Well, he had me in a fireman's carry, so he's kicking the door with his foot. When the doctor came out, he was in a wheelchair. I went, oh, man, it's getting better every minute. Why would a doctor be in a wheelchair? Yeah. Well, it turns out he was partially retired and this how he made extra money. He fell in with a nurse at the clinic. So I watched him to carry me in.

He dumped me on this table in the emergency area, big bright lights overhead. And they started cutting my clothing off and sticking tubes in me and whatnot. And I got bored. I started drifting away from the table. and I felt heat on the back of my neck and I thought, this must be the light, one of the bright lights I'm bumping up against.

And when I turned around the look, I was enveloped in this extremely intense white light. It was like perfect. Did he feel love? Oh, nothing but. And I had no fear. Everything went away in terms of threat.

So I'm floating in this white light. and I could see perfectly. I thought at first, you know, this is really bright, but it didn't hurt my eyes. And I thought, oh, this is it. This is like, you know, where I want to be. And this voice in my head said, you can't stay. You have to go back.

And I started looking for something to hold on to. I didn't want to leave. And that's when I, second snap of the fingers, and I sat up. and looked at the German patient and told him that. Wow. So it was very profound. I stopped carrying a gun.

Nobody would work with me. Why? Because they thought if they got in trouble, I couldn't do anything. It turned you more into a pacifist or something? No, not pacifist. There was something, you know, I took martial arts from age 14 to a couple years ago, a few years ago. And so, you know, I don't need a gun. I can defend myself pretty well, you know, unless they have a gun.

But if they have a gun, your chances of defending yourself are minimal anyway. Anyway, I just stopped. Didn't want to hurt anybody. It turns out, since nobody would work with me, I had to work alone. And working alone, everybody was terrified of doing that. I can care, because dying is so what? So that's just changed your outlook to wholesale since then about life, death. You can't cease to exist, so what are you worried about?

And it sounds like non-existence, at least in your case, seemed pretty loving and gentle. Well, the other problem involved here is the fact that you become extremely depressed. It being here. Really? Not there. Oh, yeah. And that happened with you. Yeah.

I was, for six months, I thought of probably 15 ways to take in my life. Really? Yeah. Isn't it comforting, though, knowing that's always kind of the backdrop? That's not how you think about it. You think about I'm stuck in this primitive backwoods, back alley, back, you know. Regressive. Yeah, regressive place where nobody understands.

Yeah. So you don't want to be here anymore. And so one night, I'm asleep, and I was awake in the middle of night by an entity that snatched me out of my body and speech slapped the crap out of me. Really? But with words. What did it say? What the entity was saying, and I couldn't tell it was male, female, or what it was, it was, it was saying, what are you, that stupid? You know, you know what's going to happen when you do eventually die.

Why aren't you, like, enjoying this place, using this place, teaching people in this place? Seems like a pretty good entity giving you some tough love. He was trying to get me to wake up. Do you, any visuals on the entity or just felt like a voice? No, just an unbodied voice. And me trying to argue and getting slapped down for it. Wow. And so when I woke up that morning, I was like totally different.

Wow. It was like, oh, yeah, okay. I don't care anymore. Yeah. So everywhere I went, I did my job best I could. I did my job usually alone until I met this colonel who said when they consolidated all the intelligence people into one place in Augsburg, Germany. It was a 30,000 square foot building. I met this one colonel, and he said,

I need somebody who really understands physical security. And I said, I'm your guy. And he said, I'm going to send you to this place, and I want you to test it. So I was matched up with another guy. And he and I, I'm not going to say his name because I don't think it's fair without asking him, but he and I broke in.

to this 30,000 square foot facility. What was the facility? It's a consolidated intelligence place. It had Germany equivalent to the CIA, French equivalent to CIA, British equivalent to the CIA, our CIA, Army, Navy, Air Force,

everybody was in this building in Europe. Really? It was a consolidated headquarters. It was like a UN of intelligence. Yeah, kind of like that. You say what country it was in? It was in Germany. It was in Oxford, Germany.

Ah. So I was there. We broke in. I was the detractor. I was the guy who got caught going over the fence. What they didn't know was while they were capturing me, he was going over the other fence. Okay.

So I got hauled in. The MPs are very unrelenting when they capture somebody like that. because I had to wait for exactly an hour watching a clock on the wall. Well, they were trying to get me to tell them who I was, where I was from, what I was doing. And I just resisted until that time. And at that time, I identified myself and said, bring your commander in here because you guys have been screwing up big time. But why were you assigned to this in the first place?

They were testing the security of the building. So there's red teaming. Yeah. Yeah. So testing vulnerabilities to. So the guy came in and he realized who I was and he was very upset because he got written up because that's when I told him, my partner's been in your building for over an hour. And he planted these cards, clip on cards, said bomb all over the building.

And they didn't stop him. They didn't question him. They didn't do anything. He was going in and out of places. And he was wearing somebody else's badge. He took off their coat. Jesus. So the security was obviously lax.

For a facility housing. That's when we got moved in there and we were physical security for the building from then on. Okay. And there were a lot of weaknesses. And we toughened it up and we found out there were three people

going in and out with fake badges. Wow. And I mean, it was terrible. And, but this commander kept getting written up. And so he really didn't like me much. And so I spent a long time overseas working in these things. So when I finally came back, the general, general ordered me back to the headquarters. And I'd always said, no, I'm not going back to that course.

That's a bunch of paper pushers. I've been doing a real job overseas all this time. So I called this friend of mine in the Pentagon. I said, can you get me reassigned? He said, let me check. And he came back and he said, man, you're in trouble. You go into the headquarters. And I said, no, I don't want to go to the headquarters.

Give me something else. I don't care what it is. He said, I can't. This is like a three-star. He's saying, you're coming to my headquarters. and I want me choice here. So I said, what's my A-Lat and D-Lat scores? That's your scores for competence for the language.

Oh, you max those. I said, oh, that's great. So now I'm qualified for any language on the planet. So I said, what's the highest language need in the U.S. Army? He's a Chinese Mandarin. I said, okay. I want to learn to read it, write it, speak it. holy cow man that's two years at monterey immersed and i said i'll take it so he cut me orders and monterey is the

like cia language school it's not just cia it's all the military everybody in the government needs to speak a language fluently yep it's two years and two months there for mandarin to read it right at svegan and the day you start you can no longer use english that's that's it how you want it. So I got there on a Saturday. I was unpacking my bags. And the orderly came in and said, there's some general on the phone wants to talk to you.

Okay. So I went down to the orderly room. And I answered the phone. And he said, do you know who I am? He told me his name. And I said, no. His name was General Roya. Why aren't you at my headquarters?

And I said, Oh, well, the Army decided they need me to speak Mandarin. Bullshit. You will be in my office 9 o'clock Monday morning in full dress uniform. And don't let the screen door hitch in the butt. Slam the phone down. Now that's on the phone receiver. The orderly all across the room said,

that sound like an order to me. You could hear it everywhere. And so I pat my bags and went to that course. So when I got there, they put me in the officer's course, which I couldn't understand because I was in E7, Sergeant First Class. Monday morning I showed up in his office reported, as I was supposed to at 9 o'clock in the morning. And all these people came in the office,

and he said, I'm going to make you a warrant officer. I went, wow, because I was always complaining because I could never get my warrant packet out the door. Well, he made that decision. So they pinned warrant bars on me, and he said, I'm putting you in charge of your military occupation, especially for the world. And I said, I can't do the job. And he said, what? And I said, I can't do the job.

There's 28 chief warrant officers that will be working for a warrant officer. they're not going to do what I tell them. You know, there's a year of probation as a warrant officer. He said, he turned to his secretary. He says, can I promote him? He said, you can do anything you want, General. He said, take those pins off. He made me a chief warrant right there.

Wow. So he says, I can't get them to do what you tell them. That's up to you. But you're in charge. Your desk is in the office above mine. so that's where I was working when he found out that he had this thing called

Gondola Wish starting at Fort Meade and he was nervous about it because you didn't understand it he called it a hinky project so he said I want you to Stanford Research Institute and find out all you can about it and then come back and brief me and that's when I went and did these six remote viewings.

Interesting. Yeah. So you were almost doing it on behalf of this general. Yeah, I was just collecting information. You were collecting information. And then you ended up actually a part of the program. And then when I came back, he said, I went down to his office and my desk was empty.

Yeah. All my stuff was gone. Yeah. I said, what happened? He said, I'm going to have to assign you to Forme for me for this project. Wow. and it's like, oh, please don't do that. Joe, what happened on Mars a million years ago?

What did it look like, set the scene for us? Well, going back to that, DOD decided, since I had spontaneous out of bodies, that I should try to learn how to control them to see whether I could collect intelligence doing that, too. So they hired Bob Monroe to help me with that because he's the guy, Journey's out of the body guy. So they actually paid him to train me. So every Thursday night, I would leave right after I finished the remote viewings.

I would drive down to the institute here in this town. And crash, I get there about 11. And then early in the morning on Friday, I would start working in the lab with Bob when he worked there Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And I go to bed Sunday night, and I get up at 4 a.m. or whatever and drive back to Fort Me to do remote viewing.

So I did that for a long time, many months. And so I was being trained in that when I was taking a nap. It was a Saturday evening. I'd been working for two days with Bob, so I was tired. So he was doing some kind of work in the lab and I was taking an app in the isolation chamber we have in the web.

And he woke me up. He said, I have some people here from DOD. They brought a target. And I said, oh, really? He said, yeah, I have the envelope in my shirt pocket. He gave me a seal envelope. He fell over put in a shirt pocket. And I have a card here with GPS locations.

So I'll read them to you and you tell me what's there. So the first GPS location he read was a huge pyramid. And I said, right away I said, this must be a new discovery because it's huge. It's way bigger than the one of geese. And it's got monster rooms inside, which is not making any sense to me at all. That's okay. Just report on what you're seeing. So I did that.

So I went through six of the seven targets. and whatever was there, I described it. And it turns out everything I described was there. And I came out of there. I couldn't do the seventh because I was exhausted, so I stopped. And at the end, I started getting an image of human beings that were trapped in a place where the atmosphere was turning bad. I couldn't figure that out.

So I said to Bob, I said, the sun looks really weird. And he said, I don't care about the sun. Just tell me what's going on. So I said, evidently, there's some kind of calamity here. So I started thinking maybe this is a future target. I didn't know. But the whole time I thought I was on Earth and it was a new discovery.

And so I came out of there and I said, that's obvious that these people are dying for some reason. But they're human. They're just really big people. They're like twice our size, 12 feet tall. But they're just like us. And they're dying. And these pyramidal places are like hibernation chambers.

They're trying to survive until somebody comes to save them. And so, what is this target? It's just like a new discovery or something. And the guy from DOD said, Bob Monroe has the target in his pocket, so I pull it out of my shirt pocket, open it up, and said Mars, 1 million BC, which made me angry, and I'll tell you why. I hate doing a target where I cannot prove ground truth, because then I don't know if it's real or I'm inventing it.

It doesn't do me any good, and I can't actually sit there and say, this is exactly 100% correct. It's unfalsifiable. Yeah, unfalsifiable, but unprovable. So it made me angry. So I said, give me the card. I took the card and the emblem, put in my shirt pocket.

I said, the next time I'm at JPL, Jeff Repulsion Lab in California, I'm going to find out where they have negatives of these locations and get them. And Bob said they'll never give that to you. And I said they're damn well better because we pay for all those pictures with our taxes. Yep.

They can't classify those pictures because they're in space. So the next time I was in California, I went to JPL, and they have a big counter where you go in and buy pictures of space. So I went up the counter and the guy said, how can I help you? And I said, I have this card here and I hand it to him. And he looked at it. I said, I'd like to see the four by four negatives for those locations on that card. And he went, oh, this is the old city on Mars.

He turned out and pull a drawer over and gave me a packet at all the negatives inside. So they're in my book, Mindrette. Wow. Yeah. So what are the negatives show? It shows exactly what I described. It shows pyramids. It shows a big pyramid.

It shows an old fort. It shows a wall that's... On Mars? Yeah. Can I see them? Yeah, I'll get a copy of my book downstairs, bringing out to show up to you. I mean. Wow, that's amazing.

That's not the coolest thing. That's so cool, though. You're saying that you remote viewed a pyramid on Mars a million years ago, and how do we have imagery of that? Oh, they're mapping Mars. But that's not the coolest thing. So it's negative images of those locations now on Mars. Yeah.

And you can see. see the pyramids. They're heavily worn. They're just much damage to them. But it's clear their pyramids. Yeah. That, like, look like they were man-made. Yeah.

In fact. Why did they look like they're man-made? Well, I'll give you the reason why I know they're man-made. Okay. There's an impact crater. And on the side of the impact crater is a triangular piece of land. Yeah. That obviously has been constructed there.

Uh-huh. And in the center of that is a four-sided pyramid. Now, here's the cool part. You know the place of the camera, which is circling Mars. You know exactly where it is when I took that picture. You know where the sun is in relationship. So you know by the shadow, you can compute the size of the impact crater and its sides by the shadow of the sides.

The side shadow in this particular case was a quarter of an inch. That quarter of an inch represents about 3,000. feet. So the impact crater walls are 3,000 feet high. That four-sided pyramid on that little triangle piece of land on the edge of the impact crater has got a shadow two and a half inches long. Now tell me how tall that is. That's not a pyramid. That's a shard. And it's thousands of feet tall. and I actually asked the guy at JPL. I went many times at JPM. I said, what the hell is that?

You know, I don't know. Best guess is it grew there. And I said, you're out your mind. If it was an impact crater that occurred after it was there, it had a bonnet away. I think it was from an out. It was put there after the impact creator. It was, the shard was put there after the impact crater.

By who? So you tell, right. What? Exactly. And what would the, I'm even trying to think of like what the purpose of the shard would be. Oh, no. That's fascinating. Do you have images of that?

Yeah. But here's the thing. This is awesome. I went out of my way to get a hold of other negatives. Mm-hmm. And each negative is probably 50 by 50 miles on Mars. Mm-hmm. So you have to look at that negative over a long period of time, line by line, by line.

I have probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-something photographs of things on Mars that are clearly alien. Really? Yeah. Like what else? Okay. Before we look at the evidence that Joe has, let's set the scene here on the possibilities of life on Mars. A question with a long history and numerous theories. More than a hundred years ago, American astronomer Percival Lowell suggested that certain features

that were being observed on Mars were not natural. Back then, in the late 19th century, the idea that Mars had seasons, vegetation, flowing water, even large rivers, was kind of popular. We had to speculate because we had no way of knowing otherwise. A lot of this speculation was fueled by dark areas and irregular-looking patterns observed on Mars. But Lowell went as far as to claim that parts of these dark areas and patterns were purposefully built irrigation systems designed by a Martian civilization. These theories were contested well into the 20th century, but the question of trees, lakes,

and Martians was eventually put to rest when the Mariner 4 space probe photographed the planet up close in 1965. These photos revealed an inactive planet, barren and apparently lifeless. Although there seemed to be clear evidence of water having existed in the United. in the past, with extinct riverbeds and basin-like formations. And therefore, the question remained. If there was no sign of life currently visible on the planet today, could it still have existed in the past, perhaps due to the presence of a technologically advanced civilization.

In the mid-1970s, the Viking orbiters sent back an image that caused quite a stir, a mile-long structure that resembled a human face staring out into space. The infamous face on Mars, this structure provoked a lot of speculations. for more than 20 years. But eventually, higher-resolution images seemingly put that question to bed, at least for most. The established narrative was that this was all just a case of peridolia,

the same psychological effect that makes us see familiar shapes in the clouds, nothing but some shadows and angles of light. Questioning this interpretation became synonymous with quackery and conspiracy. The region of Mars that the face is located on is called Sidonia. Some researchers believe that the face is just one part a larger set of structures in this region that also demonstrate unnatural features. Perhaps even displaying specific design characteristics that suggest geometric patterns and intentional positioning like stellar alignments.

They claim that Sedonia contains multiple pyramids, basically the remnants of a city, all eroded over millennia. These formations appear to be aligned in highly unlikely ways, raising the question of whether their placement is entirely random. But it wasn't just the region of Sedonia. In the Elysium area, at the north, probes photographed huge pyramids, some 500 meters high, some with four sides, just like the great pyramids of Giza. And near Mars's South Pole, Mariner 9 took pictures of what looked like ancient ruins.

These ancient ruins were even informally dubbed by their team as the Incan city. Elsewhere, vast areas of monolithic structures, tunnels, even other faces, seemed to defy explanations that they came from only natural processes. To be clear, I'm not at all denying that many of these features could just be explained by basic Mars geology. But take this thought experiment. If similar structures and patterns were imaged on Earth, using modern techniques like LiDAR mapping, presuming they had man-made origins wouldn't be so controversial at all. So why does the same conversation seem totally off-limits when it comes to Mars? What if these structures are ancient? What if they're millions, even billions of years old?

This raises another question, are we seeing all the data? We must trust that organizations like NASA are sharing these images and data transparently. But this has been questioned in the past. For instance, Stanley McDaniel, a professor emeritus at Sonoma State University, wrote a 200-page book about NASA's failure to properly investigate the structures on Mars and questioning why that was the case. Richard Hoagland made similar claims, and admittedly, his... very controversial book, Dark Mission, The Secret History of NASA, which brings us to the most

recent chapter in this story. In 2001, the Mars Global Surveyor captured an image that has only just made its way onto the mainstream, causing a stir on X and gaining some high-profile attention. The image shows a square structure with clear right angles, possibly spanning several kilometers per side. The geometry suggests a high potential that this could be an engineered structure. Of course, the square on Mars is being explained away by skeptics as a natural geological structure. And it might be, but the point really is that we don't know. Moreover, we've only imaged a tiny fraction of the Martian surface in significant detail. And we've physically explored only very small portions through robotic envoys,

so we don't know what we don't know. And yet, despite this, the idea that there could be artificial structures on Mars is given no credence at all. Now, here's the thing. If you suggest that life could exist in some basic microscopic form on Mars, even right now, perhaps under the surface or in some particular unexplored zone, I think that even the professional skeptic would accept that as a possibility. Even President Trump openly floated the idea that life once existed or still exists on the red planet.

There's no reason not to think that Mars and all these planets don't have life, you know. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest this to be a distinct possibility. In 2003, methane was a very. detected in the Martian atmosphere. An organic molecule usually seen as a marker of life. Its source is still debated, but it could be that microbial life exists somewhere below the surface of Mars. In 2015, researchers stunned the world when they claimed to have finally found definitive evidence

of salty liquid water flowing on the surface of Mars in the summer months. Moving water has long been considered a crucial marker for the possibility of evolution to occur like it did on Earth. presumption was that life could not have survived on the surface of Mars because it's always lacked a global magnetic field or a magnetosphere. However, in the last couple of decades, evidence has been gathered to suggest that Mars did have this protective layer, and it was probably stripped away sometime in the distant past. This means that there could have been a long period of time, where Mars had rivers, lakes, perhaps even oceans, all protected by a functioning magnetosphere.

We've even got our hands on physical evidence from Mars to investigate. In 1984, scientists found a Martian meteorite in Antarctica. It was codenamed ALH-84001. When the meteorite was examined, they discovered microscopic structures that resembled fossilized bacteria. The discovery even prompted President Clinton to make an official televised announcement on the possible discovery of life on Mars.

Today, Rock 8401, speaks to us across all those billions of years and millions of miles. It speaks of the possibility of life. So from this fascinating but orthodox scientific viewpoint, we can look at numerous pieces of evidence, even the evidence of what you see around you on Earth, that if life is possible on Mars, even today, the likelihood that it could produce complex,

even technologically capable life forms in the past, should not really be that controversial, especially when we consider how much more, more there is to find out about our most similar solar neighbor. But on the other side of the spectrum of orthodox theories and controversy, there have been some more interesting claims. For instance, in 2020, Haim Esshed, the head of Israel's space program for nearly 30 years,

and three-time recipient of the Israel Security Award made a shocking statement. He claimed that the United States and other nations have had direct contact with a galactic federation, some kind of coalition of alien races that have interacted with us for years. According to Eshed, these beings have instructed governments not to disclose knowledge of this to the rest of the population yet because they want to avoid mass hysteria. He went even further, however, suggesting that American astronauts are actually working alongside these extraterrestrials in an underground base on Mars. Now, of course, we can't confirm or deny this,

but those interested in UFOology will know that this isn't the first time that claims of meetings or secret treaties with extraterrestrials of surface. Something slightly more grounded is a theory suggested by researchers like Graham Hancock. He states in the Mars mystery that there could be some connection between the symbolism of these eroded monoliths in a place like Sedonia and the ancient civilizations of Earth. At this point, who knows? There are a lot of possibilities on the table. Even the question of what happened to Mars to create this seemingly lifeless place is full

of fascinating theories. Over the last decade or so, Dr. John Brandenburg, a plasma physicist and propulsion scientist, has found evidence to support his hypothesis that planetary-wide catastrophic events may have occurred on Mars. His theory suggests that high concentrations of particular elements created only via rapid processes like in thermonuclear explosions may have been caused by a nuclear war on Mars. Perhaps a lesson for us here, but also maybe the reason we are only able to see the remnants of our neighbor's lost civilization, if it existed at all. But here's something to ponder.

When our guest, Joe McMonigal, was tasked with remote viewing Mars, the coordinates and time period were chosen for him. The full transcript of the session has been declassified. You can read it for yourself. Now you have to ask yourself, was this just a random exercise? Or were those specific geographic coordinates already known to be significant? And who were the parties who requested the information that had provided the coordinates to the top remote viewer in the country. It seems we will always have questions about Mars until we get there to see it for ourselves. Because for as long as humans have watched this bright red wanderer move across the night sky, they've always asked themselves what's happening there.

Maybe there's a reason we keep being drawn to it. Because something else is going on, or it was going on in the past. This is a bone on Mars. Okay. That's on Mars. That's on Mars. That's a bone. What?

Yeah. Certainly in a stone. That does not look like a stone. And you got these from JPL? Yeah. Really? Come right off a negative of Mars in their mapping series. See these little buildings?

One there. One there. Here's three in a row. Buildings. Yeah. This is on Mars. Here's a building over here. Is it a picture from a rover or is it a picture from a telescope?

It's a picture. from a mapping, here's a curly cue. It's a picture from a mapping satellite. That's a satellite making maps of Mars. Wow. That is a non-natural edge. You don't get a 30-mile edge like that. Wow. By nature. That's a sheer cliff. How long is that? 30 miles. 30 miles. Now I'll show you where it comes from. Ah, here it is. That's that edge.

It's just a deep chaseled. That's a perfectly straight edge. It comes out of right here and goes straight as an arrow all the way across and it fades into the ground there. Here's a cavern. And it's got all this, like,

wire stuff on the top. So that's a subterranean tavern? It's a subterranean cavern. You cannot see into it, but it's very deep. And there's wiring? That's wiring. Here's the interesting part. When we first caught this on Mars, it was a bright red light right here.

That's gone out since we caught it. I actually have a photo of the light. What? What do you think? Bright red light. What do you think the light was? Well, that almost implies that there's something there now. Yeah.

Let me show you something. So there are people at JPL who definitively think... There you go. Is that real? That's real. That's three feet long and it's big around. That's... And it's got buttons on it and a rotating thing here.

That was taken on Mars. That's laying on Mars, man. And if you sent that to, like, a NASA photo instrumentation specialist, they wouldn't be able to... They'd say... What they do is they'd say, bullshit, that's not off of Mars. Well, I have the negative. You have the negative. Yeah.

So they can say whatever the hell they want. And you can back it up with these JPL guys. Yeah. Wow. So I will send you that. Thank you. Okay. And I'll send you something else very similar.

Joe, I appreciate it, man. This is amazing. Not a problem. So JPL is just sitting on these. Yeah, but you've got to understand something. Uh-huh. You've got to know exactly what negative you're asking for to get the picture. Why would they hide this information?

They're not hiding it. They're just not talking about it. But it's so mind-blowing and important. I mean, the other interesting thing, I'm just thinking, as you're saying all this, is that it's been hypothesized even by conventional science that at one point, habitable life existed on Mars,

and it was stripped of its magnetosphere, maybe due to an asteroid impact. Because it was moved. Something passed through our solar system and took inter-ramp, inner area planets and moved them to outer areas, outer rim. And what do you think? And outer rim planets removed to inner rim.

What do you think moved through our solar system? Some big object passed through our solar system that did that. And with its gravity field. Yeah. Okay. It probably stripped the atmosphere up Mars at the same time. It's impossible to know now. it could be a wild planet out there doing an elliptical orbit that takes 20,000 years.

Any other alien artifacts that you saw in these negative? Sure. What else? I'm not going to go there because this is all going in a book. But I got to tell you this, in my opinion, this is just my opinion. I think sufficient evidence exists that we, in fact, might be aliens. And what is that evidence? That evidence is the way we treat our planet.

Not well. All we do is take, take, take, take. We're the only animals on this planet that has no respect for our nest. So you think we were imported here? I think this is where we came maybe from Mars. So maybe some remnant survivors of that cataclysm or something or explorers, maybe before the cataclysm came here? I think there were people that got stuck on Mars

and tried to survive by hibernating. I think elements of people on Mars when it's all different directions looking for help or another place they could go and I think some of the people wound up here. Now, what happens when you jump to another planet, you leave all your industry behind. so the only thing you have

that's advanced technology is the ship you cannibalize the ship until you've used every single part on it for something when you run out of that you slowly devolve back to sticks and stones and the reason why is you can't

just build a manufacturing plant you have to start at the very base work your way forward develop leisure time all the skill sets necessary, and go through all the steps to eventually build a manufacturing plan. You wrote a fantastic book that I recommend everybody read called The Ultimate Time Machine.

Yeah. You hypothesize something very interesting about how the pyramids of Giza were built, which is a subject of endless speculation because people don't think that with prosaic conventional, you know, civil engineering techniques, we can actually build the pyramid. So what do you think? We might have poured the stones. They still have them and poured them. What does that mean?

Pored the stones. Over a long period of time, concrete turns to stone. When they build a skyscraper or a house with poured concrete, the first 25 years you live in a house, that concrete is not hard. It's hardening. It takes 100 years for concrete to harden completely. Once it hardens, it then starts converting to stone.

10,000, 20,000 years later, it's rock. And if you test it, it's rock. And you may say, that looks an awful lot like granite. But it may be that it was actually mixed and poured at the time it was set. Interesting. Okay. So there are places where the stones look like pillows that were put in place. They wrap around other deformations and look like.

They literally were made out of clay and put in place and then got hard. So that implies, yeah, hardening process, basically. That's fascinating. It would explain the megatonage because you can't really carry that in solid form. Well, there may be ways you can. Sure. So. Well, that was the other thing you said in that book is that there was water that allowed for the transport of these larger.

What I said was they built reed boats. Uh-huh. They actually harvested the stone. up the Nile, where the quarries are, loaded the stones and the boats and brought them down. And where the pyramid is, they damned it and just flooded that whole area. And as the water level came up, they rolled the stones off the boats in place. Yeah, interesting. Yeah.

That's, I mean, such, what a sophisticated, amazing use of nature. Yeah. Why not? And what do you think the purpose of the pyramid was, this is also a subject of endless speculation? I think it's a transmitter. Okay. Of signal. Whatever they want to, whoever they want to talk to.

Uh-huh. You know, go back to the time of their creation and figure out where they're pointed. Well, or Ryan's belt. Before this last procession around the North Star of Polaris, it mapped fully to Orion's belt. Okay. So this was, I think, around 10,600 BC is when it shifted. And before that, you know, yeah, mapped to Orion's belt, which is always, the place across

mythologies and civilizations it's the place the souls would ascend through. The path of souls that idea that on death our soul makes a kind of leap up to the heavens and then makes a journey along the Milky Way and that that journey

is full of challenges and difficulties on which we will be assessed for the use we made of the incredible gift of life that idea is found all over the world. Supposedly, yeah. Supposedly, yeah. Maybe that's how we went back to Rinesville.

Maybe. It's emitter of us. Oh, that's not. We don't know. Yeah, maybe they're sort of a celestial ascent chambers. I can tell you there's ways of using the chambers and things within the pyramid chemically to make emitters. Interesting.

You can make a giant emitter of it. Emitter of what? Everything from light to whatever you want to emitters. Yeah, frequency-wise. That's so fascinating. Have you ever remote viewed the crucifixion? No. I unfortunately cannot pick my targets because then I would know what I'm looking at.

So to be blind, it has to be somebody else picks my targets. You've never gotten curious, though, and said, like, okay, I have this pretty amazing skill. Oh, I'm curious about a lot of stuff. Yeah. But you want to stay disciplined about being tasked. Well, yeah. If I'm going to do a remote viewing, it's got to be within protocol. Have you ever been tasked with remote viewing any historical events that are religious in nature?

Yes. Anything you can tell? But they weren't Western religion. They were something else. Like what? I got, I was targeted on sometimes temples and things in Japan. Temples, like Shinto temples? No, not Shinto.

Way before Shinto. Like when? Back around 249 AD, there is a record in the Royal Court of China, a woman named Himiko. And Himiko exchanged ambassadors with the Royal Court of China. She is the only female empress that ever existed. She ruled for 76 years. There's virtually no records of her. And she ruled in peace.

She converted all Japan from hunting gathering For which the warlords constantly fought over territory To the rice culture Which locked them down to the land Stopped all the warring So she was also a shaman She had her own temple What her mother did

Her grandmother did She came from two of the most powerful families one on Kueshu Island and one on the tip of the main island down south. I was hired to do remote viewing, and then we would go over to Japan and look at the places I said things existed. And we think, we believe,

that we found her summer palace, her winter palace, her temple, her mother's temple, and her burial mound. Wow. And why were he tasked with looking into this? There's a group in Japan. They're mostly from Okinawa.

I'm not going to pronounce this correctly, but it's called the Nakhinaai group. And what they do is they try to develop proof of mythology that's recorded. Now, since there's this short little line on her in the Royal Court of China, they know she existed. They know that the emperor of China gave her ghost mirrors, gave her a gold ring, gave her some other gifts in exchange to ambassadors with her. But that's the only proof is that one line written in the records of the Royal Court of China. So everything else about her is a myth. And what we did is we demythed it by showing those things as the law.

longing to her. And did anything special about her? She clearly was this remarkable leader. She introduced the rice culture to Japan. She consolidated all of what existed then, called it Japan. She ensured that there were no wars fought between the warlords anymore. All the warlords were to marry her. She was absolutely gorgeous. But she could read their minds, too and she would just show up when they were planning to do something. Wow. And they always wondered, how did she know? Wow.

That kind of thing. Incredible. I mean, there's just so many things that she's known for. And there was this sudden change in Japan at her time. So there's about 70 years of total peace there where that was allowed to happen. Your aforementioned colleague, Inga Swan, wrote a book called Penetration. Yeah. And it's one of the weirdest books I've ever read in my life.

Yeah. Where he talks about doing his normal remote viewing work, and then he is approached by a guy named Axelrod. Right. And it's a guy in a suit, and he's very mysterious. He blindfolds Ingo. Ingo goes to some deep underground location, and they see a UFO together.

And then he's told to remote view the dark side of the moon, and he sees an alien base on the dark side of the moon. And then he says some really interesting, he ends the book around theory. And he says that there's space side and there's earth side. And they're almost alien spaces and their earthly, you know, man area and woman spaces, human spaces. And what do you make of all this? Well, I knew Ingo really well. And I will tell you that when he was writing a book, he always talked about it.

He would come into the lab and he would say, this is a real. where I went the last couple days. This is how I'm writing and this is what I wrote. He even let some people read part of the manuscript. He was very clear about what he was doing and he talked about it a lot before it was published. Penetration came right out of the clear blue. Never spoke a word of it. It just suddenly appeared. I think he's playing a game. Really? Personally, yeah. What was the game? he wants to see how far he can take people. Interesting. I don't know.

He think he was messing with you. I have no idea, but I can tell you that he never wanted to discuss it. He said, read the book. That's all he ever said. Well, he would say things like I was at the groceries doing, you know, buying fruit or whatever in the produce aisle. And I see an alien on Earth. And I know she's an alien. And she realizes that I recognize her.

And she's ravishing or something. It's just so strange. Yeah, it is strange. So you think he was sort of playing a game. That's interesting. Playing a game. That's my feeling. But then we were eating dinner one night, and he said, I finally figured you out, Joe.

And I said, you did. What did you figure out? He said that you're an iconoclastic son of a bitch. And I said, geez, I didn't know you cared. And that night, when we got back to the motel, Our two rooms were side by side. Uh-huh. When he put his key in his lock, I put my key in my lock.

We turned the locks, and he went into his room, and I pretended to go in mine. Uh-huh. Backed out, locked the door, and ran down to the office, and I said, do you have a Thesaurus or a dictionary? Uh-huh. She said, why? And I said, I don't know what iconoclassic means. Uh-huh.

What it means is I'm a destroyer, destroyer or disprover of structure. Uh-huh. If somebody says, this is why this happened, I'll show you why it isn't. Okay. I don't buy anything. And unless I have evaluated it myself, gone through all the jumps and, you know, checked everything. And then I might say, in all probability, this is true. I do find it interesting.

We're sitting amidst a UFO craze right now. Like, we're at peak mania when it comes to UFOs in the zeitgeist where everybody's talking about disclosure, sometimes in healthy ways, other times in weird, unhealthy ways with the kind of ulterior motives and agendas. And a lot of the early interest in UFOs did come out of the remote viewing community. And I do, I find it interesting. You have a guy like Hal put off move on from remote viewing. And he's still, you know, interested in it, obviously. But he goes on to work on sort of like secret science lineage stuff. alongside UFOs.

And then you have Russell Tard being like, I'm kind of skeptical of UFOs. So what do you make of that? Well, I know both of them really well. And I know why House interested. I also know Jacques-Fillet for a long time. I know him really well. Almost everybody, I knew John Mack.

You knew John Matt. I was in England when he was there. I sat at the table with him and we talked about some stuff. When he died? That day he died. Oh, Jesus. He remembered a paper in his hotel. He went back to get it and looked the wrong way when he stepped off the curb.

Are you conspiratorial about that? No. Okay. No, it was an honest accident. You know, Americans looked the other way, and the cab killed him that was doing 50 miles an hour. Yeah. So he never, if he had looked the right way, he would have seen that they drive on the wrong side of the road. Right.

So, but I know all these people, and I know they have an honest, interest in the reality of is it or is it not okay that's fine and i'm agreeing with them there's a guy named ryan wood that i know really well i knew his father even better bob wood yeah bob wood and i went to a number of crash sites with him which all turned out to be our planes really yes well he doesn't think that ryan no he does about some of them because we found evidence of it and we talked to people who were actually there. They're in their 80s. But he wouldn't say Roswell or Kexburg was a star.

No, no. I'm talking about the ones that I was with him. He's gone to a lot of sight. Sure, yeah. I only went to two or three with him. You wrote a great book about all this. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot about that.

And now I've had UFOs shown to me and blow up photographs by some of those people. You told me that. You told me Jacques Valet showed you a photo of a UFO. Coming out of a lake. Yeah. Yeah. And he kept saying to me, check it out.

I check it out. He said, did you see what I'm seeing? I said, what? He said, look at it. I looked at it, looked at it, looked at it. And I finally said, maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing. And you missed the, you don't see, you didn't see the UFO in the lake? No, I saw the UFO.

Ah. He said, look at the cows. Every cow in that picture was looking at the UFO. So. I want to see the UFO. The pilot never saw. I'm going to call Jacques after it. It flew right in front of his plane.

The pilot never saw. Oh. So there's plenty of evidence of UFOs. So there probably are. What do you think the UFOs are? Could be alien, might not be. The problem I have is when people say the graves are aliens. No, they're not.

They're robots. That's what the smartest people I know say, is that they're sort of droid-like robots. They are. Because they're single-minded. They have a function. They do their function, and that's it. And the function is sort of this cold,

like DNA. Implantation, genetic collection, gamete collection. Right. And why are they doing that? And they say, oh, they look like this, but they have no nose and no mouth. Well, of course not.

A robotic. Who are they doing that collection on behalf of? Maybe the people that sent them here. You got to realize if we have any interaction with aliens, it's got to be from one star to the other. That's not done with a UFO or a fire wagon. That's an instantaneous jump. This planet to this planet.

They don't even need a spaceship to do it because they're never in space. Do you think we have the capabilities of doing that? So sending people to other? No. Okay, but you think maybe some other planets have the capabilities to do that? If there are a million years ahead of us, yes. Yep. Now, a lot of people are concerned about the threat, what are they here for,

why are they messing with us? And I will tell you, if they have that capacity to jump star to star, they've been here a long time. If they met us harm, we would have been toast a long time. Yeah. Okay. So why are they here? Maybe it's because we're doing something that they don't necessarily approve of.

The first UFO ever recorded was within seven days of the detonation of the first atomic weapon in Trinity and New Mexico. That's the first one it ever appeared. Ever since then, they've had a huge interest in our atomic weapons. they've zeroed them out and they've denatured them so they won't go off and the last one that Putin tried to launch as a test exploded in its silo so there's other reasons that we don't understand so you're not paying attention you're saying Putin made an attempt and as a warning, he probably took the nuke off the top and launched out of a nuclear storage facility. But it exploded possibly due to UFO.

Right inside the nuclear storage facility. Is there a record of this? Yeah, well, as far as I know, yeah. I didn't, I'm not aware of this. That's amazing. Most people aren't. But that's what he tried to do as a warning. Wow.

He's constantly saying, oh, well, I'm going to have to use a nude. Oh, constantly. He and Medvedev are its dog whistles of nuclear war constantly. Yeah. You know, I think he has a tattoo that's said... Which is stupid because that's the end of the world. Because our retaliation is not going to be just Russia. Yeah. It'll be China, Russia, Tehran, North Korea, everybody who has a nuke that we can get hit by.

Yeah. And if we do that, the whole world's toast. I remember being on the phone with you once, and I asked you about aliens, and you said, I think we might be turning into them. Oh, I thought, what I think I said was, I'm not sure we aren't alien. Yeah. But it was almost like they were a future version of us, too. Might be, might not be.

I wouldn't pretend to know what their interest is or what their desire is. All I can say is I don't think they mean us any harm. They're concerned about our inability to improve. Can we get these negatives, the photos on Mars? I can show you one or two. That'd be amazing. I can send it to you. That'd be awesome.

I'm not going to send you a bunch of them. I'll send you one or two. Whatever you want. That are absolutely for sure. That's remarkable, man. That's incredible. Well, I appreciate that, and that means a lot. Joe, 2025 feels like it's getting really weird.

It is getting weird. You have a convergence of all sorts of, like, tech singularities with AI and quantum chips, and the UFO thing has become this just mad craze. And then geopolitically, things feel like a total powder keg, like, as unstable as they've ever been. What do you see coming down the pike? Are we going to make contact with aliens? Are we going to destroy ourselves? Are we going to make it through?

I think at the last minute, we're going to have a direct interaction with them. and it's going to be straightened up fly right. The aliens. Or we will ensure you fly right. The aliens. The aliens will. They're going to say you guys better get your act together. Right.

Here's my belief. Humanity is meant to improve, to grow, to learn, to be better. Right now we're stuck in a period of great avarice. greed, money. It's hard to tell when somebody has any kind of a baseline in morality or ethics. It's like it's a bad feeling and it's scaring people. I think the aliens are here to stabilize that, to stop that crap, you know, like grow up. Because humanity needs to improve because right now, we're at,

seven and a half billion people. No, we're at nine billion plus. We stopped being able to produce sufficient food to feed people at seven and a half billion. I don't know, you probably weren't old enough to remember a time when the poor could go to a place and buy excess food from the government for virtually nothing.

Five pound block of cheese for a buck. Right. stuff like that. There is no excess anymore. There are people dying of starvation who can't get food, and yet we keep having more babies. The reason for the increase in population has to do with the old. Old people, in order to be cared for in most countries,

where they have no retirement, no care about the people, nothing at all to do with the people that get old. They rely on their families to take care of them, to protect them. If they have eight children, they have a possible chance of survival at an old age. Even if they lose half their kids, the disease or whatever, those remaining four or five kids will take care of them in their old age. They won't starve to death or die ugly. The problem is that's not good because we,

keep increasing the numbers. The way it should be, governments exist because the people want them. The people design governments to support them. It should be all about the people. It's not about making profit. It's not about saving money. It's not about low taxes. It's not about any of that crap.

It's about what the people want, the people get, and the people are taxed. for. Amen. It's straight up. There's no corruption. Are there? That's what's necessary. Are there any alien bases you've remote viewed on Earth where we might be able to, okay. I did the three bases that supposedly are alien bases. I drew all three of them.

And all three of them, when I drew them back then were classified. So I could never talk about them publicly. But I told the people who tasked me what they were. I could say it now because it's known. They're over the horizon radar sites. Okay. That's why our entire due system went away because we have bases in the world

which are designed to look over the horizon. So if Russia or China were to launch a weapon, when it's a couple hundred feet off the launch tube, we'll see it. Not eight minutes before it hits us. On that... On that very sober note, Joseph McModigal, this has been an honor.

I appreciate your time, man. And this is a really wide-ranging, incredibly informative interview. And thank you for having us. Oh, you're welcome, man. And you can come back again if you want. Appreciate you. Awesome.