American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Congressman: “President Trump Was Briefed On Alien Hybrids!”

Starting point is 00:00:00 If we discover that our government has held on to anti-grivitic information from the scientific community, I'm going to be really pissed. Congressman Eric Burleson. Missouri Congressman. Eric Burleson. Eric Burleson. What's going on here? MIT Lincoln Labs, we found out that there was a real-to-reel audio file where you have a senior official with the Department of Defense briefing scientists at MIT about saucers.

Starting point is 00:00:26 Whoa. There is reportedly an object that is not in this country that is so large it cannot be moved. What's the craziest thing that's ever been told to you? You can leave the person totally anonymous. This thing was blacker than black sphere that was floating, and it just gave this sense of just complete evil and darkness. So they brought me in and they told me about the event that happened in the Western United States. they actually personally encountered these UAP. So they jump in the helicopter, they go to the location, and what they interact with are basically glowing orbs.

Starting point is 00:01:10 There's some type of spherical, nebulous, what's described as like a ball of plasma. Neil McCastlin is a general who is extremely high up. He went super mysteriously missing. Yeah. We were definitely making inquiries trying to set up something to talk to it. Whether there's a body in the desert, they need to go find a body. Find the body. I would like a full briefing, the same White House level briefing that the

Starting point is 00:01:39 president gets on this topic. I want to be able to go to all these sites that we keep hearing about. Pax River, Whiteman Air Force Base. I'm going to go to Area 51, the Lake S4, all of that stuff. What do you think President Trump knows about UFOs? I do believe he's been briefed and that during that briefing, he was told that there are hybrids. Trump's responsibility. was you mean like Adam Schiff? All right, well, a lot of the audience might be wondering why I'm wearing a collared shirt, which is not a normal thing for me on this show. It's because I'm with a congressman.

Starting point is 00:02:38 One of my favorite congressmen, although you're from Missouri. I'm honored. No, I mean it. You seem like an angel amongst devils. A rare, you know, diogenes would go around looking for an honest man, you know, and, you classical Greece and, you know, he wouldn't find anyone. And I think you're a rare salt of the earth, honest man. And I think that's easy to pick up from your interviews. I think the vibe you give off is very just earnest and well-intentioned. And that is the least commoditized thing in Congress and

Starting point is 00:03:12 in the world right now. So I appreciate you being here. It's an honor to be here. I'm a big fan of your podcast or of your show. I religiously watch. I'm, I'm sorry. I'm subscriber and I there you should know there's sometimes where I pick up I glean some ideas and I bounce them off my staff and say we need to look into this oh that's awesome well that's that to me that's the pinnacle because we were talking a little before rolling and I'm always like why am I you know sometimes the tip of the spear on certain things at least in the open source world on UFOs I want people in government to be following up on a lot of these things so it's really heartening and cool to hear and you know, text occasionally and stuff too.

Starting point is 00:03:54 And it's epic for me to hear that, you know, people in charge who actually are important and have power are doing something about this. Yeah, I have more confidence in your research abilities than most of the people that are working for the government. That gives you an idea. Well, I guess I'll consider myself the skinniest kid at Fat Camp. That's a low bar, but thank you.

Starting point is 00:04:15 Nonetheless. I want to just give people a sense, you know, I think a lot of people have heard sound bites from you going viral on Twitter, that sort of thing. Just your kind of prehistory before running for Congress. What made you want to run for Congress? What were you doing before? I worked in software.

Starting point is 00:04:35 I was a software engineer, built one of the very first patient portals in the country back in the early 2000s, and then worked as a consultant for a company called CERner, and then later at the very end, Oracle. And so software engineer by trade, but also. studied finance and realized if I was ever going to make any real money, I either need to own my own software company or

Starting point is 00:05:00 go into finance. And so I became a financial advisor. So, boring guy from the Midwest. That's the best way of explaining it. We need more boring guys from the Midwest in government. And then at what point did you decide to run? Yeah, so I would sit in my cubicle.

Starting point is 00:05:16 I mean, my work environment was essentially the movie office space. I would sit in my cubicle each day and and you know bang out code and or lead a team of developers and i would listen to talk radio i'd listen i'd pay attention to what's going on in politics and a lot of it a lot of things i would listen to would be things like you know speeches by milton friedman or or thomas soul and i would read their books um and just and get really frustrated with politicians yeah because like i think i just have a very idealistic view of the way things should be and was just so frustrated the way that

Starting point is 00:05:56 the swamp operated and the way that even the people that I would help get elected yeah they would disappoint me and so eventually I decided if the if you know if I've got to do it if if if in at least give it a shot yeah I love that the way you're putting that um yeah get get involved be the kind of man in the arena and those two people you mentioned Milton Friedman and Thomas Soll have just such cutting, uh, in incisive takes that are timeless and really apply to today and really apply to the knee-jerk, uh, reflexive reactions to people, that people have around kind of the conversation, especially around government spending. Yeah. Uh, and some of the identity politics stuff,

Starting point is 00:06:37 especially with Thomas Seoul, where yeah, sometimes you got to make hard decisions in government. And no one in government wants to make the hard decisions. They always want the future generations to foot the bill. And so those two and people like Friedrich Hayek before them, really outlined all of these philosophies and the conversation, there's no conversation around any of this stuff. Like that, like the, I really think of Tea Party Republicans as like the last Republicans to even be fiscally conservative. Like, you know what I mean? Well, I'm still that. I'm, I'm, and I feel like I'm part of a dwindling group in, in that realm. Because as you see, the party become more populous and, and more and less laissez-faire free, like,

Starting point is 00:07:19 Lisei Feren is like, you know, hands off, the government hands off approach to the market. Yeah. I'm truly still a free market capitalist, you know, less government, respect the rule of law, a fundamental conservative. You're on your own. I can't. Rare breed anymore. You are, seriously. Okay.

Starting point is 00:07:41 So in how long have you been a congressman from Missouri? Three and a half years. Okay. And when did you get into UFOs? when I got into Congress. So being, my first moment was I just gotten elected. You try to, when you get up, when you get in Washington, D.C., they try, first and foremost, you would think that they would put you or assign you to committees that actually fit your

Starting point is 00:08:05 talent and your experience. But that is not how Washington, D.C. works. It's a very broken environment. So I wasn't put on the Financial Services Committee or any of the committees that would have anything to do with health care or, or, or, or. or anything to do with software. I was put on oversight and, you know, transportation and infrastructure.

Starting point is 00:08:26 But, you know, I'm trying to carve my path, trying to find a role. And I was drinking coffee in my office one morning just by myself and I was watching the news and I saw David Grush come on. And here's a, and I, there was something about him that I just was inspired by somebody that was bravely coming forward

Starting point is 00:08:44 and saying that in that interview, he mentioned that he wants to talk to Congress. And I have been in office for less than two months, maybe three months, and I thought, that's me. I mean, I still have that role, like, where I still have a hard time seeing myself as I'm a member of Congress. Yeah. But I just kind of, I thought, wait a minute, I'm a member of Congress. I might be able to do something about this. So we reached out to the studio and was able to get a conversation with David, like the next week.

Starting point is 00:09:16 wild that's awesome so you say something about him kind of resonated he seemed like just in another honest yeah and i think that is the vibe with him too he's really this uh kind of team player i most of the colleagues kind of in his background even working with him in kind of conventional roles viewed him as you know just very good at what he did and then all of a sudden he's coming out and i think it was a watershed moment for this UFO topic too because it was a lot of quacky people before him. There was, there were some notable exceptions. I think Bob Lazar is actually really awesome and a cool guy. And he was, a lot of these people were saying things that just felt so beyond the pale. But Grush is really like, you look at him and you're like, he, you know, could be like a relative or something. Like, he's just a normal dude. Yeah. Yeah. And he's saying some pretty remarkable things. He was. And so I thought, this is worth getting, you know, him coming forward bravely and saying the things that he was saying. And just there's a part of me that really abhors and hates a government that thinks that has the arrogance to think that it shouldn't tell its people what's really going on. And that probably is somewhere in my id that that drives me crazy and probably is what's driving me in this whole topic. Especially when it comes to the nature of reality. Like they really shouldn't have a monopoly over that, you know. It's like some sort of little tactical trade secret warfare advantage, you know, in the nuclear program.

Starting point is 00:10:44 okay, I'm pro keeping that classified. Right. When it comes to this sort of stuff, like, you know, we're not alone or, you know, maybe there's something off with our physics that, like, academics should be teaching. Like, that seems pretty fundamental. It does. Like, to me, the, if somebody's, as I was sitting on a plane on a tarmac once for three hours sweating and not able to move because of an air traffic control situation, the thought came across

Starting point is 00:11:13 me that if if we discover that our government has held on to anti-grivitic information from the scientific community, I'm going to be really pissed. Yeah, you should be. And I, you know, as somebody who, you know, I've gone pretty deep on the anti-gravity stuff, that I think they are. I really do. I think they are. I think, you know, I always bring up this guy Thomas Townsend Brown. I think I made really real world updates in the world of gravity. There's an FBI document from the 40s on him that says he is the lead radar scientists in the entire Navy. He knows more about radar than anyone in the Navy. And then now I think we have pretty good evidence that his work made into the B2 stealth bomber.

Starting point is 00:11:58 So you have two out of the three things that people used to deny that are now kind of hard to deny. And then the number three thing is like he's talking about, you know, merging electrical. magnetism and gravity in some way in this form of electrogravityx. I don't think he's lying. I think it's interesting that people haven't really done a whole lot of deep diving into his research. Yeah. Or the other thing that's interesting is you have these other scientists that went missing that were doing it. You had Amy Eskridge.

Starting point is 00:12:29 Yeah. Who went missing and, uh, or who, I'm sorry, she committed suicide supposedly. Committed suicide. Yeah. Or yeah, committed suicide, but claimed that she was people were going after her at the end of her energy showing burns on her hands at the end of her life. I found out that I was being physically surveilled. There's this weird fucking Lexus and it has tinted windows that are not street legal. My hands have been burned to Hill and Back as I've been typing. Because you can beam me through there or through there.

Starting point is 00:13:01 And her father was a NASA scientist who was interested in gravity modification. His name was Richard Espridge. strange. It is really strange. Her story is heartbreaking whenever you see the interviews and she was really calling for help as far as feeling threatened, feeling like people were coming after her, that she felt like she needed to come forward with what she knew quickly. And then you had the weird case of, I think the other woman was Ling Lee. Ning Lee, yeah, yeah, yeah. And who just kind of dropped off the map for a period of a few years. And then suddenly there was an obituary. That's right. And this is going to come full circle because Ningli, it's a really interesting case

Starting point is 00:13:48 where she was using solid state superconductors, rotating them really fast. And she basically said they emitted these gravitons that engaged in gravitational shielding. And so you would get weight reduction for anything above the superconductions. conductor, which you shouldn't get weight reduction, you know, the thing shouldn't lose weight. That means gravity is being modified somehow. It's really kind of crazy. And then she starts a company. It's literally called anti-gravity LLC. And people invest with her, too. Like her colleagues apparently believed in it enough that they were putting their own money behind it. They're all putting their money behind it. And she's at University of Alabama Huntsville and the chair of her physics

Starting point is 00:14:27 department as a guy named Larry Smalley. And he's so convinced that the thing works that he leaves his job to work for her. So then you have all these people being like, oh, it's fake. She wasn't doing that. She didn't, you know, actually get any sort of effect. And that's obviously BS. And so, and then she tragically, uh, uh, gets hit by a car and dies of dementia years later. But she really went silent in that first period when she gets that contract for her, for her company. Right. And, uh, the whole story is very strange. And this is going to come full circle because you now, are investigating MITER Corporation as possibly being involved with UFOs.

Starting point is 00:15:07 The last time Ning Lee really spoke in a public way on record about her anti-gravity work was at a MITR conference. I don't know if you're aware of this. Yeah, I admit her, and I did sit down and I interviewed her, and this was at a conference in 2003, just outside of Washington, D.C.,

Starting point is 00:15:26 run by the Oversea by the MITA Corporation, and it was looking at, I think, high frequency gravitational waves. She chaired one of the sessions. I talked to her afterwards about it all. And then I don't know how soon after that it was that she sort of went off grid. It was certainly

Starting point is 00:15:44 probably about within a year that she just disappeared. I didn't know that it was that conference. Yes. Yeah. And they used to convene all sorts of scientists on exotic science and stuff and it felt very like, you know, maybe a limited hangout or something, see what people know.

Starting point is 00:15:59 Yeah. That is interesting. I did not know that. Yeah. Something that we could, we should probably look into. I think so. Well, they're a federally funded research and development center, as you know, which is technically a non-profit.

Starting point is 00:16:13 They're kind of exempt from a lot of the oversight and scrutiny that, you know, normal government institutions would be. And they keep coming up when it comes to UFO lore, UFO oversight. Do you think they have something maybe to do with the UFO legacy program? I think that there's enough. there's enough rhetoric and enough speculation that it warrants us deep diving into mitre. I think we're, if you see my work lately, we're really trying to take a deep dive into these FFRDCs because they, it seems like, and honestly, historically, when you look back

Starting point is 00:16:51 at their formation, they all kind of were stood up around the, just after the Manhattan Project, right? So you have the Manhattan Project, that information gets leaked. Russia suddenly now has the information of how to build a nuclear bomb. And I think that our federal government learned from those lessons and decided, we're going to go about this a different way. So they spun up all these, you know, quasi-private entities that, I mean, so in FFRDC, really, their only client is the federal government. Yep.

Starting point is 00:17:25 But yet they get the benefit of acting like they're a private business. And it's really like, you know, I think the cowboy intelligence world, which existed in the 40s and 50s, I think still exists in whispers in these FFRDCs because it's these guys who, you know, if you're GS-15 in the government, you're not getting paid as much as you want. You probably have some restrictions on what you can and can't do. These guys in these FFRDCs, they're subject matter experts. They can get paid a whole lot. They can dual hat as all sorts of things. They can consult for NASA, NRO, you know, I'll do all these things at once. And then, yeah, it seems like the perfect sort of cover for UFO activities. And specifically, you have Aerospace Corporation constantly coming up in the UFO conversation. I believe there was even WikiLeaks email between John Podesta and an IT contractor there about fast walkers. And so, you know, and they always come. And Eric Davis, of course, worked for aerospace corporation.

Starting point is 00:18:30 And then the Institute for Defense Analysis was an FFRDC back in the day. And Harold Malmgren was there. And he even said on record that was a not official cover for like what I was actually doing for the National Security Council. Yeah. So it feels like just this place you work at that's an excuse to kind of do a bunch of other stuff and possibly UFO related as well. Yeah. And so we actually sent a letter early on to aerospace corps. and the Oversight Committee from my role to be able to get them to come in and answer some

Starting point is 00:19:05 questions. And they actually responded and they sent someone, two people from their executive team. But of course, they knew nothing. They absolutely, so we got them in a skiff. They, they have no idea what, of any, any kind of UFOs or reverse engineering or anything like that. So that was the beginning with that was, that was under the Biden administration that we had that interview, I think we're probably going to reach out to them again with more specific detailed questions. Because I think a lot of these government entities, even like the agency, like the CIA, I think that all of these programs, a lot of times these people are coming in, they're temporary workers. They come in to the role. Maybe they do enough deep digging in to find

Starting point is 00:19:54 out what did the person in my role do decades ago. But let me ask, most people in any other job don't really do that. They don't look back and say, what did the person in my role do decades and decades ago? So I think that we're in a time in which it has been really, if it's true, that information has been so pulled in and compartmentalized that a lot of the people that are now in those roles, unless they really do some digging, are not going to find it. So I think that's why we have to crowdsource it. We have to do the work of getting the details and then giving it to these people who are in a position of authority and saying, no, you need to go look for a file that's called XYZ dated this date, right, that contains this. And that's where you're seeing my office is putting out a lot of these interrogative letters to MITER, to Aerospace Corp, to,

Starting point is 00:20:53 MIT Lincoln Labs. Any specific examples of what you're asking for from any of these organizations? Yes, so MIT Lincoln Labs, we found out that there was a real to real audio file from way back in the 40s. No, I'm sorry, it's like

Starting point is 00:21:09 1952, where you have a senior official with the Department of Defense briefing scientists at MIT about saucers. Whoa. Right. And so,

Starting point is 00:21:23 So we found out that that we got word that there was an audio file that existed, maybe even more documentation. So we sent an interrogative directly demanding that, that that be retained and that we get access to that audio. And that is currently, they responded that they did have that and that they are now processing it for us to be able to at least listen to it to Skiff. And my hope is to get it disclosed. Whoa. So that was classified. And you had this senior DOD official in 1952, presumably around the, you know, D.C. flyover maybe, I don't know, in July. It is. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:22:01 Wow. Where, you know, you had saucers on the White House lawn was the sort of, you know, headline, newspaper headline. That's fascinating. Well, I can't wait to see what comes of that. So you think you're hopeful that that will get declassified? I am. I think that the fact that they've admitted that it does exist is now, okay, now we know it's there. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:19 So let's get it. Any other examples of specific things? You're querying? So after the Varhina case, when those individuals from Brazil came over, I was there with James Fox and Leslie Keane, and we were hearing from these individuals after the meeting, I ran into some of the folks from the FBI that are actually very much looking, want to look into this. And they said, sir, if you want us to look into this, if you'll write a letter, we'd be happy. to jump on this. And so we wrote a letter very specifically asking for details of that. And that's something that the FBI can sink their teeth into, right? If the reports are accurate, that means that there's flight records. That means that there's some documents that they could actually go after.

Starting point is 00:23:09 Yeah, well, there was, you know, I know James Fox did this event in D.C. with, you know, three of the key witnesses from the Bargenia event. And I know you were kind of a co-sponsor of the event. You were there. The truth is if there's any government that's holding information about the knowledge of whether or not we are alone or not alone in the universe, that is not for any government, no matter how powerful it is to withhold from the rest of humanity. Yeah. It was the Roswell of Brazil. So many eyewitnesses. And so it gives us an opportunity to try to get that information. And the fact that Brazil is, you know, reaching out and saying that they want to cooperate. with the United States, they want to, you know, come alongside us and be open and transparent as well. I think it's good. It's good that the United States is leading this because I'm seeing other nations come forward and reach out to our office. I've, I've had meetings with people from Japan.

Starting point is 00:24:07 I just recently, yesterday or the day before I had a meeting with two members of parliament from Canada. And so there are other nations that are seeing the work that the United States is demonstrating. And hopefully that encourages them to also come forward. Yeah, yeah. I just got back from Brazil, actually, where I interviewed a current presidential candidate and former defense minister, Aldo Rebello. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:24:31 And he was basically like, yeah, I have no reason to doubt that, you know, I think Virginia happened. You said that fundamentally you do think something happened in Virginia in 1996. Believing that a phenomenon like this exists. Of course. Because these were phenomena that

Starting point is 00:24:49 had the testimony of totally credible witnesses. And it was actually kind of interesting, my kind of ex post analysis on the whole thing, as he said, I asked him, I was like, when you were defense minister, did you see anything specifically around Virginia, Colaris? You know, these are things that obviously,

Starting point is 00:25:10 I think there's so much overwhelming evidence in the open source world that you actually have to be dogmatic and unreasonable not to say that nothing happened, right? Right. So that's what he was saying, essentially, in the interview, was like, yeah, like, I don't have access to classified info necessarily about this. But, you know, I think this happened. I think you have to be unreasonable to say that it didn't happen. But then it was interesting. We got James Fox, you know, this amazing documentarian who's documented the Varginia case more than anybody in his movie moment of contact. We got him on the phone. And he's talking to Aldo and he's asking about the body being transported back and forth to the U.S. and the U.S. involvement, and Rebello goes, well, I can't say anything that's classified. We have pretty good testimony from a number of witnesses on the Brazilian side

Starting point is 00:25:58 that the entities, the E.T, went back to America, but we don't know what happened to the craft itself. As here, any rulers of where the craft went. The information that's held by the Ministry of Defense is strictly classified. So I felt like, there's a little bit of a tell that like, you know, and I don't knock the guy at all. And, you know, I think it would be very bad for him if he were to reveal anything classified. So, you know, I'm not blaming him. I think the fact that he made the statements he did is fantastic, but I think he knew more than met the eye was my takeaway.

Starting point is 00:26:42 Yeah. But those very specific, you know, incidents are things that we can. really, really get into. Yeah. And really kind of, I'm, I think it's, I'm done kind of sending these broad letters. That's what, that's why the meeting with Aerospace Corp was such a nothing burger. So we, I think that if we can give them very specific details and then you can find people that, I think a lot of them would be, actually, we'll be surprised.

Starting point is 00:27:12 Yeah. When they go digging and they actually find it. Can, can I send your request for something with, Absolutely. So with Aerospace Corp, there's a, I don't know if you're familiar with this book, American Cosmic. Have you heard of this? No. It's an amazing book. It's by a religious studies professor who actually wrote about Catholicism before she got into UFOs. She heard a book about purgatory. And then she started to look into kind of experience, divine experiences from brothers, nuns, and saints of the Catholic Church. And things like St. Francis of Assisi, seeing sort of the flaming torch on the mountain and mountain. Mount Laverne, Italy. And she was like, whoa, a lot of these actually look like, you know, what John Mack, the Harvard psychiatrist, is looking into with modern abductions in the 90s. And she ends up going down this rabbit hole and she meets this guy who's since been outed, not in her book,

Starting point is 00:28:05 but by other people. And his name is Tim Taylor. And he is at Aerospace Corporation, but he's a NASA mission controller. So he's kind of one of these sort of dual-hatted guys. And he tells her openly. I'm part of a secret space program. He actually takes her and Stanford professor Gary Nolan to a crash site where they look at material. Oh, that's where Gary got that material. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly. This like frog skin material.

Starting point is 00:28:31 Gary also gets material that he studies from Jacques Valle and stuff. But yeah, so really fascinating guy. And he's claiming that he works like in kind of adjusting timelines, which sounds nuts. But if you watch Disclosure Day and maybe they're hiding truth and fiction, It's that's kind of what the movie's about. And it just seems like this fascinating guy. And I think he was in touch with certain members of the UAPTF, which is obviously responsible for a lot of modern disclosure, you know.

Starting point is 00:28:58 So yeah, it's interesting. Like I think I'd love to know if can you get him to come out and maybe come on the show or, you know, make a statement or something. Yeah, give me the details, though we'll be happy to get our team on it. We can, we can follow up. Yeah. Yeah, he seems like a fascinating guy. You've had some really interesting experiences where you've, and this was kind of an interesting

Starting point is 00:29:25 moment in the weaponized podcast you did, where Jeremy kind of pressed and was like, you went to Pax River and you're like, well, that's not on record yet. Guys, I can't really, I have not publicly said that I've taken the trip to Pax River at this time. Okay. Can you say anything more about that? I mean, it's now pretty much out there that I did go to Pax River. That was... What is Pax River for the audience?

Starting point is 00:29:51 I mean, it's short for Patuxa River. It's a... It's basically the Navy's base that they do experimentation. It's kind of their research, where they test their aircraft. Yep. And so it was a short drive per se. It was at least just a drive. We didn't have to fly there from D.C.

Starting point is 00:30:17 So this all came from a request that I had made from the White House. And I could tell you that story if you're interested, but that's probably one of the more. It goes back to a vote that was happening, the one big beautiful bill or the Working Families Tax Cut Act, whatever you want to call it. The day of that vote, we were kind of, you know, as a fiscal conservative, someone who really cares about the debt and the deficit,

Starting point is 00:30:42 I was worried about how we might impact that with extending these tax cuts. And so I was fighting for every kind of pay for that I could. Cost cutting measures that I could get in order to pay for these tax cuts. So it was a long day of negotiations. I mean, a long, long day to the point where we were negotiating until 2 a.m. And to this day, Trump calls our group like the 3 a.m. caucus. Not exactly in a lovingly way.

Starting point is 00:31:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, but at the end of the day, look, I didn't go up there to make everybody in D.C. happy. I went up there to try to save the country. That's awesome, yeah. But in the course of that really long day, the White House staff, which I don't readily have access to, were there. And I said, in a moment of downtime, I said, hey, you know, while I got you, can I ask you

Starting point is 00:31:36 some questions? And I, and I said, we're getting nowhere in over. oversight. We're asked to investigate this topic of UFOs and UAPs. And we're getting really nowhere. And where we go, we're getting, you know, we're hitting a dead end. We're not able to have enough authority to get any information. And he said, well, what do you want? And I said, this has nothing to do with my vote, how I will vote on this bill. I just, while you're here, I want to vent at you. And he said, well, then what would you like? And I said, well, if you're asking, I would like, I'd like a a full briefing, the same White House level briefing that the president gets on this topic.

Starting point is 00:32:17 I want to be able to go to all these sites that we keep hearing about. And he said, I mean, he said, which locations? And I started with Pax River, you know, Whiteman Air Force Base. I want to go to, I want to go to Area 51, Lake S4, all of that stuff. Have you been to all those places? No, no. And so the first location that was kind of a low-hanging fruit was Pax River. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:43 But in general, so I made that request. The guy that I made the request to, you know, White House staffer was grinning. And at that point, you know, there's still a stigma. There's still. And I thought, oh, he's making fun of me. Like, and I said, you know, why are you grinning? I mean, I'm sorry if this is, if you think this is funny. He said, no.

Starting point is 00:33:04 He said, I want to go with you. This is awesome. Yeah. And so he took that request back. and a week later, a liaison from the Department of Defense, now the Department of War, was in my office saying that he was told from the White House to make it happen. Wow.

Starting point is 00:33:21 And so to me, that was remarkable. If you think about it, Barry Goldwater asked to go look at some of this stuff when he was a senator and was turned down. Yeah, he's in fact, he specifically said he asked Curtis LeMay to see the blue room at Wright Pat and Curtis LeMay cussed him out of the room. I call Curtis LeMay and I said, General, I know we have a room at Wright Patterson where you put all his secret stuff. Could I go in there?

Starting point is 00:33:53 I've never heard him get mad. But he got madder and held me. Cussed me out and said, don't ever ask me that question again. So I'm, you know, we're having to work out the logistics, but that's my request is to see that. and I'm going to keep hounding at the administration and using whatever points of leverage that I can to get to get in that room. And did you see a UFO there, like a saucer and a hanger sort of thing? No, but if anything, what I was able to confirm is that some of the narrative that has been around

Starting point is 00:34:25 what packs its role in the UFO or UIP like history, I was able to actually be on site and see the facility that would have been that facility that they were going to transfer from Lockheed Martin to Bigelow Airspace. And I'll tell you, just being there and seeing it, if you were ever going to do a transfer, it would be logistically the perfect venue to do that. And did you see anything exotic where you're like, what is that?

Starting point is 00:34:55 I don't know what that is. I didn't see anything wildly exotic, but I saw some really cool stuff. Okay. Our government's doing some really cool things. Do you say anything more? No. Okay, fair enough.

Starting point is 00:35:05 You know, Pax River's really interesting. because in 2018, there's a Navy scientist named Salvatore Pais. I met Salvatore Pais there. That's cool. So he's amazing because, well, he, these patents, these Navy patents involve inertial mass reduction, high frequency gravitational waves. Yes. And piezoelectric superconductors, room temperature superconductors.

Starting point is 00:35:31 Basically, all the things that you would need to make a UFO fly, the creme de la creme of exotic physics. Yes. Fascinating. Okay, so that's a part of the story. When I made that request, once they greenlit that venue, we were very specific and said, we want to see this location. And then I said, I want to talk with Salvatore Pice. And so I was surprised that they made that happen.

Starting point is 00:35:59 We were able to have a meeting with him. And most of the people there, you could tell they do not, they didn't have a clue what I was going to ask. We started talking about his patents, going down a list of the patents, asking, you know, have you guys, you know, have there been actually, have these been put into any test form? And they admitted that one of them that they did,

Starting point is 00:36:26 I believe it's the anti-gravitic one, but they weren't able to have any definitive results. Now, Salvatore Pai says that that was not built to his specifications, which means, and I'm not putting words in his mouth, but I picked up that had they built it exactly the way that he had designed it, they probably would have had a more definitive result. Whoa. But because it wasn't definitive, they apparently didn't move on with it. That's what they said. Apparently he got kind of messed with, too. Yeah, it also seems like they have, they've put him in a, they've kind of put him in a different role. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 00:37:11 And he seems very scared to talk to anybody. Every time I communicate with him, it's very cloak and dagger, you know. And it's, he's often feels kind of, like it's like a fearful vibe. Yeah. And there was even a moment I interviewed him. and are like, it was really hard to get the interview we did in some, like, you know, janky motel near Pax River. And one of the cameras broke down and the audio sucked.

Starting point is 00:37:42 But I got to a certain level of the science where he freaked out and he goes, Jesse, stop right there. Like, just stop asking. I know you're curious, but like, and I was like, okay. And I kind of stood down. Let's get a little. So as you hit the shwinger limit, break space time. What happens vis-a-vis this fifth dimension?

Starting point is 00:38:00 We'll not. Okay. We'll not touch on that. Leave it there, Jesse. Trust me on that. Leave it there. We nerded out about the science a little bit, and I'm just like a hobbyist on, you know, trying to understand quantum physics and that kind of stuff. But I could tell that the only person in the room that was tracking with Dr. Pice was Dr. Kozlowski, John Kuzlowski, who was there.

Starting point is 00:38:27 And so he was tracking. I was barely keeping up most of everybody else that was in that room walked out of there, not understanding anything that we were talking about. Interesting. Yeah, well, that's cool that you have the instincts to know that Kozlowski, at least, is tracking, you know, the content. What do you think of him? So he's the new for context for people, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, is kind of the modern project Blue Book.

Starting point is 00:38:57 I'm not even saying that necessarily as, you know, with the connotation of Project Blue Book, but it's the official Pentagon investigation program. It does, Arrow has a bad connotation or a bad, gets a bad rap because of this guy, Sean Kirkpatrick, who just completely dismissed all cases. In certain cases, he seemed like a bad actor and, like, he seemed like he was gathering info just to destroy it or something or not do anything with it. But what do you think about, John Kloski is the new director. What do you think of him?

Starting point is 00:39:26 Yeah, he's a breath of fresh air compared to Sean. Okay. And I don't have anything against Sean personally. I just, I was, you know, when you remember a congress and you're going into a skiff and they're giving a long presentation and it feels like it's taking forever to get to the actual like nuts and bolts of what they're there for. And then once they actually start presenting, it was literally a slideshow of we looked into this and this was a debt, like here's what it was. right? This was a balloon. This is, this is a flock of birds. This is, um, you know, a tent across the horizon. And it, and at some point you realize they're not going to show you anything that they

Starting point is 00:40:09 haven't definitively, like, determined is not. Yeah. Does it make sense? It makes total sense. I even think it's funny to go back and look at the Condon committee reports, which, you know, ended up saying Blue Book was a waste of time. The Air Force project was jail on high where they were looking at UFOs. And if you look at that report, you actually look at the substance, over 30% of cases, were totally still unidentified.

Starting point is 00:40:35 Same thing with Arrow. So Kirkpatrick will come out and say, you know, we never found any evidence of extraterrestrials. Well, first of all, extraterrestrials is an analytical overlay. It's a conclusion. It doesn't mean you've found things

Starting point is 00:40:48 that are really anomalous and worthy of further inquiry. So, like, the language is, like, kind of manipulated in a very specific, sort of way. And then second of all, if you actually look at the data, again, I think it's over 25%, definitely over 25%, maybe over 30% in Eros case. I think it might be like 34% of cases are still unidentified. I'm not sure about that percentage, but definitely when we pushed them on it and said, how many of these, how many, instead of showing us the ones that you have, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:22 eliminated, why don't you show us the ones that you're still researching and that you haven't figured out yet, the mysterious ones? And that was not something that Sean was going to do. And so it wasn't until John came in that we were able to actually get that request completed. Yeah, I mean, the stuff that's truly clearly of a variety and interesting and worthy of further investigation is the kind of nuclear connection stuff. And like you have all these guys, you have a great book by Robert Hastings called the UFOs and nukes. He's a meticulous, very not fantastical, flowery research. He doesn't jump to any sort of conclusions. And you have all these guys, almost 170 of them coming out.

Starting point is 00:42:06 And they have, you know, they're very often cleared to things. And they're on what's called the PRP program where they have to report if they're taking, you know, any sort of medication because they're around our nukes. And they're all saying that our nuclear missiles are getting shut down and, tampered with and their flyovers and they're not lying and then we have to have some censor data along with that and like what what is kirkpatrick do and then you find out that kirkpatrick had you know worked with oak ridge and you won a brook haven national labs award at the age of 17 and it's like oh you might be just compromised like you might be like on the pay payroll of like the national labs and these nuclear programs like that's that data set is obviously an important

Starting point is 00:42:51 data set to look into. And you can, I don't know, I'm about to have Michael Shermer on, who's, you know, part of this UAP White House advisory panel and he's a skeptic and I'm going to debate him. And I don't think the skeptics have anything to say about that data set. I don't think Neil deGrasse Tyson could say anything about that. I mean, it's clearly interesting. It is. And I'm interested to see how this new UAP group is formed and how they're, how they're going to function. I've had a, um, Then you have the scientific advisory group that Avi Loeb is leading. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:26 What do you think of that whole thing? I was hoping that there would be some more advanced, like, theoretical physicists. Yeah. I think having some people that are like studying particle physics would be helpful on that. But I'm sure that they're still fleshing it out. Hopefully they'll add some more talent to that group. I think what's really interesting is they've added some people that are like biologists or people that are studying genetics. That's fascinating.

Starting point is 00:43:58 Yeah, what are you trying to say? Why is that irrelevant, you know? I mean, if they feel the need to like to have people on the team that do that, that means that there may be something that they know that they're going to have to research. Yeah, I'm saying what are they trying to say by, you know, appointing those people with those sorts of specialties. And I think you had Lauren Bobert, you know, another congressman to ask about like hybrids. Do you remember this? I don't remember when she asked about it. I'm sure she did.

Starting point is 00:44:29 She asked about hybrids and it was just a really weird moment in the congressional testimony. There are rumors that have come up to the hill of a secretive project within the Department of Defense involving the manipulation of human genetics with what is discused. described as non-human genetic material potentially for the enhancement of human capabilities, hybrids. Are any of you familiar with that? Yes or no? No, man. I am not, ma'am. I'm not. No, ma'am. And I think Matt Gates has made a couple of statements to this effect. He did. He absolutely did. He said that there was a, so a military brass person. He didn't describe their rank or anything, but that came into his office and told him about hybrids. someone come and brief me, who was in a military uniform, worked for the United States Army

Starting point is 00:45:21 that was briefing me on the locations of hybrid breeding programs where captured aliens were breeding with humans to create some hybrid race that could engage in intergalactic communication. How do we parse any of this stuff? I mean, you have, you know, Timbershette, you know, from Tennessee as well, saying that we have five hot spots, you know, under the oceans. We have a higher propensity of sightings around these five or six, I believe, deep area, deep water areas. And he's, of course, I want to be clear, Timbershette was told this, and that's what he's saying.

Starting point is 00:45:56 He was told this. But, like, it seems like there are a bunch of guys running around talking to congressmen like yourselves and saying these really wild things. And then the congressmen are, you know, they're just relaying what was said to them. but you end up with this sort of like everything is everything like what's what's going on so i try to be really cautious whenever i'm being asked about things and and say this is only i don't necessarily believe this i don't have any evidence of this but this is what was told to me yes you always do that and and it's and you have to do that because there's some really crazy things that are said and oftentimes when those people are in my office i i will jump to okay where are the receipts like

Starting point is 00:46:40 What evidence do you have? Do you have anything whatsoever? What's the craziest thing that's ever been told to you? You can leave the person totally anonymous. When we first started selling merchandise at American Alchemymerch.com, we had no idea how complicated and annoying selling merch could be. Shopify made it simple to build a story that actually feels authentic to us, which matters when you're operating in a niche, like alternative tech, UFOs, fringe science, and all the other stuff we cover. Shopify's AI tools help write descriptions, organize products, even clean up photos. In our case, it allowed us to focus on what matters

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Starting point is 00:47:43 Again, that's Shopify.com slash Jesse, J-E-S-S-E, $1 to try Shopify, which is the state-of-the-art solution in e-commerce today. Thank you so much to Shopify for sponsoring today's episode. What's the craziest thing that's ever been told to you? You can leave the person totally anonymous. Well, I don't want to insult people.

Starting point is 00:48:08 Okay, yeah, that's fair now. I don't want to. When I say crazy, I mean like wild as far as its impact. I think that the, when we get into the whole discussion about people using consciousness to like call in UAPs or to communicate, when I talk to people that are saying that they receive a download or they receive messages mentally, look, I don't I don't say that these people are complete liars. And I think it, most of the people that are. talking to me absolutely believe what they're saying. I just have not, oftentimes they're lacking the evidence, the proof. Have you ever said, well, why don't you take me out to the field and we'll call something in or something like that? I did. You did do that. I did. And what happened? So one night there was a group, and I think it was like right after a hearing or something like that. There was a group that, a people that were all texting me. I mean, all these, all these people that I've made contact within the UAP community.

Starting point is 00:49:12 They were all texting me, hey, what are you doing tonight? And finally, I just said, let's meet at this restaurant, and I just sent it to all of these people. And so just put together a random group of people, and one of them was Chris Bledsoe. Okay.

Starting point is 00:49:27 And I'd never met him before. People in the group said, they explained, and he explained what, that he was able to do that. And so I had, I had been in a meeting, with another group that Greer had brought. And I'd asked the same question.

Starting point is 00:49:46 So we were actually at dinner and I'd asked that question. They said, well, this is not the best place to do that here in Washington, D.C. If you come out to this property, maybe we could make that happen. So the answer was no at that point. But when I asked Chris Bledsoe, the way I asked was, you say this, you know, this happens all the time. Where does it happen? And he said, what do you mean?

Starting point is 00:50:06 I go, like over the ocean, over water, Is it, does it have to be a lake involved? And he, and he said, no, pretty much anywhere. And I said, like in the country or in a city? And he said, no, pretty much anywhere. I said, what about here? What about right now? How about tonight?

Starting point is 00:50:22 After dinner? And he agreed to do it. So we went out on the Capitol lawn. And, and, um, he did his thing. And I kind of just politely, quietly sat and waited. And, and it was getting late into the evening. And eventually, after a while, it didn't, you know, nothing happened. And so I just said, guys, I'm going, I got to get, I got to go to bed.

Starting point is 00:50:47 So, you know, I may, I don't, I'm not trying to say that to say anything negative about him. I'm just saying that, yeah, there have been moments where I've had that opportunity. And I said, let's do it. Let's do it right now. Now, they apparently went back to the same spot a few weeks later and did the exact same thing without me there. And, and then they were able. to film dots in the sky that were moving. So, um, Congressman, you're ruining it.

Starting point is 00:51:15 I don't know. I'm just kidding. You're hurting the signal. Right. And that was kind of the impression that they'd given me is that I was such a skeptic and a doubter that I was kind of spoiling this, uh, the, the, does that make, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does, but I think you got to, you got to be a skeptic, you know, or at least agnostic.

Starting point is 00:51:34 Have you, have you, have you seen a UFO in the sky? No. At any point in your life? Okay. No. I would love to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you are a hybrid and you're, and you see this video and you've got a UAP,

Starting point is 00:51:48 come into my office, come visit me, I'd be happy to meet you. What's the thing that you've heard in one of these kind of contexts of people hitting you up, they say they have information that is the combination of kind of the most interesting and impactful, but seemingly like maybe there's some evidence for it. I would say the most remarkable thing that happened was you had this transition with, you know, and I think Tulsi did a great job setting up what was called the dig, the director's initiative group. And she had these teams that are investigating several things, one of them being UFOs, UAPs. And I think that that was probably one of the lower priorities of the group. But they were doing that research. And they really didn't dedicate a lot of resources to it. they had one guy, basically. And I think he got discouraged pretty quickly. Or not quickly, he actually, he really threw himself into it for a few years and they got discouraged.

Starting point is 00:52:51 And then as he was transitioning out, they had brought me in and briefed me about what they had accomplished. And then a few months later, they said, sir, we need to bring you back in. They actually reached out to me and said, we would like for you to come back in. and we want to brief you because things have changed. So they brought me in and they told me about the event that happened in the Western United States. People from Tulsi's team were actually on site for this. It was one of our U.S. military installations. There were people from the intelligence community there, senior intelligence officials.

Starting point is 00:53:31 They actually personally encountered these UAP. And they gave me that. in a briefing. I think I was the first elected official to get that briefing. And so I, and they said, sir, we're pretty much to approach this topic the same way that you have. Very skeptical. And, but we feel like we have a job to go out and investigate this. And this, this event has completely changed everything because now we, we know that there is something there. We just don't know what it is. And you can read about it in the recent releases. It's kind of buried at the end. Oh, interesting. Ironically, the... So what, if we can talk about it now? Yeah, so I can talk about it now.

Starting point is 00:54:14 For the longest time, I couldn't talk about it. Yeah. But it's in that release. It describes from their perspective, the intelligence people that were there. And there's two different reports. I can't say with specific location. Okay, so that wasn't released. I think they don't want to have another area 51 where they have people, like, storming the location.

Starting point is 00:54:33 But it was, at the end of the day, what they... have released is that pretty much what the narrative that they told me, that they, that they were out there. They were there because there had been previous reports. So they were just like, they were on site. They were going around looking at any kind of debris that they saw or anything that was out in the, in the desert. And they had landed a helicopter and they got a call that the radar had picked up several UAPs. So they jump in the helicopter, they go to the location, and what they interact with are basically glowing orbs. Those orbs that have been described, you know,

Starting point is 00:55:13 whether they're called plasmoids, whatever you want to call them. They're like three meters in diameter, sometimes smaller, sometimes bigger, and they have different shades of color that they glow in, but they are some type of spherical nebulous, what's described as like a ball of plasma, what one would think a ball of plasma would look like. I don't think anybody's ever touched one to know that it's like superheated material or anything,

Starting point is 00:55:38 but it definitely was messing with the helicopter when it got there. They were, they were, they operated intelligently. And then at one point they, there were some F-16s that were scrambled. These things appeared to like shoot up and chase or follow the F-16s. So when you're here, when I'm, imagine you're me, you're sitting in the office of the director of national intelligence in a skiff and they're briefing you with firsthand, you know, accounts from people that were there.

Starting point is 00:56:14 And they said, sir, this has brought this investigation from being priority number 500 and something to top 10. Whoa. Priorities for this, for this government to figure out what's going on. Fascinating. Wow. Yeah, it's, you know, Grush just did this, you know, press conference in D.C. that I know you were at. And he was asked about like the various types of life, you know, morphologies, the body types, that sort of thing. And he gets into this idea of sentient plasmoid life. How many species are you aware of these? I certainly don't have the compendium. It's a continuum from

Starting point is 00:56:51 corporeal bipedal type life to, you know, what I would consider is like sentient plasmoid life. But there are, there are several that the U.S. government is aware. And, you know, that does seem to be like this, this sort of recurring theme. That seems. to me of a different variety than like a saucer and a hanger like whatever Bobbiz are worked on. Right. Do you have a good,

Starting point is 00:57:13 I think one of the things in the space that's like missing is like categories. A taxonomy. A taxonomy of, yeah, because it's just, there's so much and there's so many disparate things likely happening. Do you have a sense of that sort of taxonomy? Do you have like a map of this stuff?

Starting point is 00:57:30 Well, certainly you hear about the different things that you often see, whether it's the triangles or the saucers, right? Or the, or the or the orbs. I'm not, I don't know that they're, they may be congruent with each other. For example, maybe they, you see the plasma sphere before the orb or the saucer comes through it.

Starting point is 00:57:52 Maybe it's a way of it, you know, breaking the normal laws of physics or what we would describe as normal, right? Yeah, maybe, yeah, that's really interesting. It's like what Skywatcher, which was kind of feels like almost like a public-facing version of what the legacy program was doing. Yeah. Which was like calling these things in. Yeah. And then causing them to kind of materialize.

Starting point is 00:58:16 It almost feels like you're drawing this sentient plasma life form into reality. And this is, again, we're in very speculative territory here. But like, yeah, you hear things like that time and time again. It is wild. And the fact that those, what's described is those plasma lights, really if you go back throughout history, people describe those. They seem to appear even in ancient texts, right? Absolutely. And that is the thing that's very definitive. So if you look at the early history in the 40s of the U.S.'s relationship to the topic, you have, you know, Roswell, of course, you have the D.C. flyover. In 47, when the federal government starts to take this seriously, you have Nathan Twyman. who is a general, who was head of air material command, you know, responsible for all aircraft development for the Air Force, he's saying these things are, you know, neither visionary nor fictitious.

Starting point is 00:59:15 And so they start to formally look into it and they create a project in the Air Force called Project Twinkle. And they have this guy, Lincoln Lepaz is a meteor export at the University of New Mexico. And he starts to track all these fireballs, these green fireballs, which are tracking the plumes of nuclear blasts after, you know, atomic tests. And they seem to be all over nuclear sites, all over the country. And there are FBI documents to this effect. There are thousands of documents between, you know, 45 and 54 when you had the U2 spy plane. So it's like there's something going on and it's not our own recon craft. Right. And they seem to be intelligently controlled. So. They do. And that's the way that these intelligence officials described it. And it freaked

Starting point is 01:00:01 them out and to the point where they needed to ramp up their investigation. They've added more resources than more people. They've they've elevated it beyond OD&I. It's now a White House-led operation. And they're pulling in all these different agencies, whether it's Department of Energy, the CIA. This is something that they're taking very seriously. And they said, when I said in that meeting, I said, you know, you guys saw it, you saw it firsthand. And surely you have scientists that are kind of working on this. And they said, no, we don't. And I said, okay, you've got to have somebody.

Starting point is 01:00:40 You've got to have a team. I said, do you have any idea what these things are? And they assured me that they have no freaking idea what these plasmoid type objects are. It's so crazy. There's an author named Robert Temple. And he wrote a book called The New Science of Heaven. And it's amazing. It kind of reconciles metaphysics with physics, but it's specifically plasma physics.

Starting point is 01:01:07 And yeah, it's fascinating. And it talks about atomic matter, you know, what we see material in the world as the exception to the rule in the universe that really it's 99% this ambient plasma. And actually, if you think about it, we have four energy states of all matter. Right. You have, you know, a solid, liquid, gas, plasma. And it's just about the energy, you know, inserted into each thing that allows you to engage in these sort of phase transitions. So why wouldn't, if we were surrounded by ambient plasma, why wouldn't you be able to draw out any of that plasma back into the material world?

Starting point is 01:01:45 And you can literally, you know, go back and forth with, you know, any of your favorite AI, you know, chat GPT. And it'll say you can in certain instances. So you theoretically, you can. So, yeah, it's. It's very interesting. And he talks about these, these Kordelofsky clouds, these clouds of plasma that exist in Lagrangian points between Earth and the sun. And those might be responsible for these long delay echo transmissions in the 1920s.

Starting point is 01:02:18 Yeah. Is there a Lagrangian point between the moon and the Earth? Sorry. There is one, right? There is. And that's the Kordelofsky clouds are actually the Lagrangian point between the moon and the earth. I misspoke. Because that's where.

Starting point is 01:02:29 apparent that's where we're racing to occupy whoa no way yeah no we are i know this we are racing um as the united states government to occupy that space and orbit you're freaking me out because he literally just wrote this research gate paper on which follows up on the new science of heaven his book about how so in the 20s they're all at the kind of the dawn of the radio age um they're sending out all these transmissions and they would get the same transmission back and And they'd freak out. They'd be like, why are we getting the same thing we just sent out? It's called a long delay echo.

Starting point is 01:03:04 It's this very weird phenomena. And if you actually watch Carl Sagan's contact, you know, Robert Zemeckis' amazing movie, you see that the first message we get back is Hitler. And he's speaking. Oh. And it's so, this really unfortunate thing where you're like, why are we hearing Hitler? And it's kind of, I think, paying homage to this long delay echo thing where it's like mirroring. us. And if you think about people's experience with a lot of these sort of plasmoid objects,

Starting point is 01:03:34 it's like with Jake Barber, like he locks on to the craft and there's this sort of consciousness mirroring thing. And so Robert Temple wrote this kind of follow-up paper, research paper, about these Kordelofsky clouds, which might be conscious. And so that's fascinating. So we're racing to go there now. We are because of the, it's a, look, apparently it's a very strategic location. And it's super critical that we get there and that we occupy that space before China does. That might be disclosure because that almost, I wonder if whatever, maybe the, maybe the orbs coming to these nuclear sites and stuff. Maybe they're like emissaries of this sort of, you know, Kordelofsky class. If you were to leave something to control or to as an artifact or a relic

Starting point is 01:04:27 or something to affect some future civilization or affect a civilization you've departed from, you would put it in a Lagrangian point. That is where you would put it. Right, because it would, it's the place where there is really no grab. The orbit, the gravitational orbit of the Earth. Neutralizes itself. And the moon are both neutralized.

Starting point is 01:04:47 Exactly. So you're stuck there. So that would be where you would put it maybe to, you know, if you wanted to leave some sort of remnant or something. It is fascinating. You know, I did. I do know Jake Barber and I met him. I reached out to Jake

Starting point is 01:05:01 through other people, through David and other people. And then eventually he agreed to meet with me. And so I took a trip down to California, met with Jake. An interesting story there is that we met at a private airport in Burbank. And it was just me waiting for Jake to arrive. And it was Jack Black. No way. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:27 Why was Jack Black there? He was there to take a private flight up somewhere. So randomly. Randomly. Okay. And so Jake shows up and he goes, do you know Jack Black? And I go, no. And he goes, let's just say hello.

Starting point is 01:05:42 We went over and said hello to Jack Black. And we were just making small talk. And he said, so what do you guys? He told us what he was doing? And he said, what do you guys doing? And Jake said, well, we're just going to, we're going to fly over the Black Desert here. And Jack goes, why in the world would you do that? And he goes, well, this is a congressman.

Starting point is 01:06:03 And Jack Black goes, hello, congressman. That's awesome. And then he said, and we're going to fly and go look at some super secret stuff. And Jack Black's jaw drops. Did you say take me? Yeah, though he had it. Otherwise, he might have wanted to go with us. It seemed like he would have wanted to go with this,

Starting point is 01:06:27 but that was one of the neatest moments. To this day, if I meet a child, or like somebody with kids, if we get talking, like in my Sunday school class, I teach these fifth graders at church, and they don't know who I am, and that's awesome.

Starting point is 01:06:43 That's why I do it, because they don't really know. But if I ever want any kind of creed, street creed, I get out my selfie with Jack Black. That's awesome. That's so cool. But, no, Jake was a great individual and somebody that I, I, is kind of like Grush.

Starting point is 01:06:58 Like, I truly think he genuinely had his, his experiences. And that's, you know, this life, this last few years had been wild to be able to say, I went out, flew with a former, you know, special forces guy. Yeah. You know, over the Black Desert, looked at some military locations, installations. We flew over one of the Lockheed Martin facilities.

Starting point is 01:07:23 And it was wild because, It's this kind of bowl-shaped thing in the ground, and there's a huge hangar door. It's clearly an underground structure, and all these white vans come racing out as we're flying, circling this thing, and they all just kind of post up and are watching us as we're circling over it. That's wild. And it's not restricted because it's so kind of secret that they don't want to restrict it. Right. Restricting it would somehow identify it or something. Yeah. Fascinating.

Starting point is 01:07:59 Whoa. Michael Herrera, who's another UFO whistleblower, he, I believe has an interesting story where Jake Barber, after getting into contact with him at this Greer event, takes him underground to this Edwards Air Force Base and possibly shows him some sort of UFO or craft. Did you experience anything like that? No, no. I wish Jake. I wish Jake had done that. but I did not have the Michael Herrera experience. Okay, okay, maybe next time.

Starting point is 01:08:29 But Jake is one of those guys where some of this stuff on first glance seems beyond belief. Right. But the longer time goes, his stuff keeps just getting proven out. It does. Like he comes out, you know, a year and a half ago or something. And he's like talking about psionic assets getting rounded up. in sometimes some not so ethical ways. Right.

Starting point is 01:08:56 And that, you know, kind of human cargo and sometimes from disaster zones around the world. And they're hired by these, you know, black aerospace programs that are really, there's so much plausible and not deniability between these outfits and they're actually the contractors that they're like, they're completely invisible. And he was kind of implying that he basically was one of these kind of hidden hands. and that these psionic operators get used to call in craft, and then they land. And it's just wild, you think that that's crazy, right?

Starting point is 01:09:33 You think that that's this insane thing. And then you get Matt Gates, for example, I don't know if you know about this. He was doing a Twitter space, and he's telling about one of his constituents who came into his office saying something very similar. How in the hell do you get like the humans? And they say, oh, no, it is.

Starting point is 01:09:51 natural disasters. They said, actually, sadly, the unaccompanied minor crisis and the caravans that just had like kind of unaccountable swaths of humans. Which is people getting rounded up in sort of disaster zones when you don't know if they're going to go missing. And it's really wild. And then, you know, Jake Barber also wrote a book called Sentinels of Ether, which was so redacted by, you know, the Pentagon censored it. supposedly a fiction book. It's a fiction book, but it's not a fiction book. Seven pages of the 20, which are just the 10% of the whole book,

Starting point is 01:10:28 get blacked out, get censored, and are deemed classified. So he's one of these guys where I think a lot of what he's saying is pretty spot on and on the target. Yeah. I think he's definitely, look, and maybe I'm just naive, but whenever I'm talking to Jake, when I'm talking to these people, I feel like they're not trying to be deceptive. Yeah. If anything, so like to me, Jake had all the reason the world to not talk about the psychological impact that he had.

Starting point is 01:11:02 I mean, in fact, people told him, if you want to be, you know, if you want to be taken credibly, don't bring up the emotional feeling that you had, right? When he was, when he described being in the helicopter while he's carrying what was, I think he described as an egg. Yeah. I think the emotional reaction was to the eight-gone craft, I believe, yeah. So I think he had all the reason in the world to not go into that, and yet he felt compelled that that's, that he had to say that. Yes. To me, that's an indication to somebody who really feel strongly, passionately.

Starting point is 01:11:39 He's not doing it for financial gain. That's right. And look, I've met two people that claim to have interacted with the craft, him, and Bob Lazar, and they both say they experience emotional and ominous feelings around them. And then the psionic operators I've met, who know how to systematically compliment. I met with a third one that you have not mentioned. Okay. You said the same thing.

Starting point is 01:11:58 Okay. And so he's not public and he probably will never go public, but he served in special forces, was in the field and was brought into a room. And what he describes as a hovering black. Again, it appears like it's three-dimensional or three meters in diameter, but this thing was blacker than black sphere that was floating. And it just gave this sense of just complete evil and darkness, is the way he described. Whoa.

Starting point is 01:12:31 He felt ill just being around it. He felt like there was just something really bad about it and didn't want to go anywhere near it. And was this at an aerospace facility? It was overseas. It was overseas. And you can imagine, you know, he's working during the time period, which we were in war. So you can imagine it's one of those locations, whether it's Iraq or Afghanistan.

Starting point is 01:12:57 Whoa. But it was in U.S. possession or in? Yeah. And so we had captured it there? Or that it was a tech that we have. I don't know. It was maybe actually human technology or you think genuinely non-human? He absolutely knew that it was either derived from alien tech or that it was.

Starting point is 01:13:17 it was captured. It was a blacker than black sphere. That makes me think of the Lazar thing, where he has his sort of, you know, a reactor, and it can create this almost little mini black hole or something. That's blacker than black. And then rotated the emitter. I don't know if it was another direction or more of the same way,

Starting point is 01:13:38 but it made a little black ball in the air where no light was escaping, looking like a little black hole. But no, you could just tell there was no light. at the focal point right in the air. It was just a dark area. So there it's affecting light, but it wasn't in the candle test before that. So it's a really unusual.

Starting point is 01:14:02 Huh. That's fascinating. And he had just a really bad feeling about it. Anything else? That individual was very cloak and dagger. Very, very difficult to get in from, was very difficult. really whenever I talked with him, he was warning me that this, he was warning me about the dangers of, the physical dangers of getting involved in this, in this topic.

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Starting point is 01:17:47 details. I, you know, you've got some people that I think will dramatize it and say, you know, my life is in danger and I think to try to get an appeal. I don't live my life that way. I don't live my life in a way in which I'm looking over my shoulder. I feel like if it's my time and God's ready to take me home, then that's his timing. It's always in his timing. So, I'm just going to do what I'm going to do until that happens and not worry about, worry about it. But, I mean, we've, you know, I've had more death threats from unions whenever I was trying to pass right-to-work legislation than I have from people on this topic. Yeah, the topic's so, it's so out there. Sometimes it feels safer than politics, which is like the most heated sort of thing.

Starting point is 01:18:41 It's like, you know, like I sometimes, you know, I think Tucker Carlson's probably in more danger than me, you know, doing what I'm, but at other times I'm like, I get a little spooked and I'm like, this is, I don't know if, you know, I should be talking about this or. But when I talk to people like David Grush and Jake Barber and some of these other guys and the individual that I mentioned, and they all kind of seem to warn about the same thing, particularly from the private sector. that there's certain private sector companies that they, that they, you know, claim have, have some nefarious actors that will do kinetic activity. In other words, like a wet works type arm. That's kind of disturbing to hear. Super disturbing.

Starting point is 01:19:30 Speaking of which, both Grush and Jake Barber knew Matthew Sullivan, who was found dead two weeks before he was supposed, to testify before Congress. The rumors are, and I just had Jeremy Corbett. I don't know that he was going to testify in a hearing as much as like come in to speak to some members in a skiff or in like maybe even in an office. That's right. Yeah. So privately, you know, give his information.

Starting point is 01:20:00 Which is the precursor to coming before in a public hearing. Sure. Yeah. And I've heard that maybe he had some firsthand experience with craft. That's what I was told too. Okay. That he was in the legacy program, had firsthand experience with Kraft. And that when I first met Grush, he was shaken by the Matthew's death and really wanted, I mean, if anything, he was trying to get my help in trying to get that exposed.

Starting point is 01:20:32 He had submitted that to, I think it was the Office of Inspector General. They said that it's warranted and credible that it should be investigated. And we took that information. We've composed a letter, sent it to the FBI, through the Oversight Committee, only to later, we had been told that it had been sent. Later, we found out that it had never been received. What?

Starting point is 01:20:57 No, it had not been received by the FBI. And that was during the Biden administration, so it may be that it was lost in transition or something. But we had to resubmit that letter. So is the FBI now investigating Matthew Sullivan's? I don't know if they have. have the, I don't know the status of that investigation, but I believe that they are. I strongly believe that they are because they've indicated that they won't talk about an active investigation,

Starting point is 01:21:20 which is kind of the tell that they are actively investigating. I would hope they are. Did you ever interact with Matthew yourself? I did not. Okay. Yeah. Do you have a sense of kind of various configurations or geometries of crafts? You know, people think of the proverbial flying saucer. do you think it's just that? You mentioned a few others, you know, earlier triangle. I mean, Lou's book describes it as though the reason why those shapes seem to make sense is that you've got some kind of anti-gravitic device. Like if you have a smaller thing that creates a bubble, a gravity bubble, then that would

Starting point is 01:22:01 naturally fit an orb or a disk, right? And then if you have two, then it would look something like. like a tick-tac, if you have two of them, right? Or a tube. And then if you have three, it's a triangle. That's, that's in Luce book. But I have, I'd have no evidence that that's the case. Only from what I've heard from other people.

Starting point is 01:22:22 Luz, obviously, very interesting character. He's, you can't say he's not responsible for a lot of modern disclosure. You know, he helped get that New York Times article published in 2017, through Leslie Kane, and he was, you know, in charge of Ossap. lately, you know, and this is sort of thanks to people like UAP Gerb. People have been saying that he's actually, you know,

Starting point is 01:22:46 maybe more implicated in legacy UFO program activities. I think Ross Colthart said that as well. And if you even watch him in front of Congress, you know, in September of 24, he's saying, I can't confirm or deny being read into, you know, Immaculate Constellation. Mr. Alizando, were you read into the Immaculate Constellation? Immaculate Constellation Program.

Starting point is 01:23:08 I would not be authorized to confirm nor deny the existence of any ongoing or past program, especially as it relates to a special access program, either by name or trigraph. The implication being that maybe he was read in, you know, I interviewed him and, you know, it often feels like he's sitting on a lot more information than he can say. He'll self-admit that, yeah. I think he is. And I think, yeah, to your point, I think that he, he, he, does not deny that.

Starting point is 01:23:38 I think that Lou, when I, I feel like Lou wants to tell you everything, but he also is a patriot, and he's going to abide by his non-disclosure agreement. Yeah. And so he will go through Dobster, which is that process where it allows them to say things, whether they'll try to put things in form of a book form,

Starting point is 01:24:01 see what can be released, and then they know what they can talk about after that process is over. They're constantly putting things through Dobsar to see what will shake loose that they can talk about. And so I feel like he is someone who is going to be loyal to his oath to the country, but he wants to get the truth out as much as he possibly can. Yeah. And our mutual friend, UAP Gerb, is a great UFO content creator who's just extremely detailed on the kind of mapping the legacy program.

Starting point is 01:24:31 He kind of notes that, you know, intelligence support activity and gray fox, which, do recon in super sensitive situations and areas before JSOC does, but it's part of Joint Special Operations Command, you know, that Lou was a part of that. And so, yeah, interesting connections there. And then you ask this sort of meta question, which is why in 2017 did the program say maybe it's time to out itself? Or like, did, you know, was it these elements of the program that are like,

Starting point is 01:25:02 this isn't being run well? Right. And so, like, we have to come out and we have to reform this, get a certain amount of information, a certain amount of information out there. Yeah, I think it was their attempt of trying to compartmentalize what they could release without giving away our good tech, right? The things that we are technology. And so I think that they saw that there's, there's enough. And that's, we have seen that ourselves. Like, I get people from that are active military personnel that come to me as a member of Congress.

Starting point is 01:25:34 and have videos, they'll show me, they'll have information, which helps us identify what we should be asking, where, you know, what we should be sending letters about. And I think that they acknowledge that there is, if they don't, if they don't start managing the release of information, what can be released and what shouldn't be,

Starting point is 01:26:00 that it was, the dam was going to break. That's my, that's, that's just my best guess. Yeah, so they're trying to get in front of what they know is going to leak ultimately anyways and sort of manage how it comes out and ensure it's not this sort of catastrophic thing. That's my best guess. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it's a good guess. Along the lines of, you know, we were just talking about Matthew Sullivan, you have this sort of missing scientists' narrative generally.

Starting point is 01:26:26 Earlier we were talking about Amy Eskridge and Ning Lee. Neil McCastlin is a general who is extremely... high up, I believe he was on the special access program oversight committee, which Lou was as well. And so he was cleared to, you know, more things than the president probably and was, you know, head of the AFRL at Wright Patterson, the Air Force Research Laboratory. And he was the source for a lot of Tom DeLong's kind of, you know, disclosures in his, you know, quote unquote fiction books, you know, secret machines. He went super mysteriously missing. Yeah. What do you think about that case?

Starting point is 01:27:06 To me, that's whether we've got to close that loop. I mean, this is a person who's walking around with some of our nation's most important secrets. I think it's important that we identify what happened to him. Yes. Whether there's a body in the desert, they need to go, they need to go find a body, find the body. Or find out if he decided to go to Cabo and just disappear. I don't know, but at the end of the day, we need to find out what happened. to this individual. I know he was on my list of people to talk to. I know that David Grush

Starting point is 01:27:39 had sent, he had sent someone to interview General McCaslin and was not able to get a whole lot out of him. But I think McCaslin knew that we were, we were definitely making inquiries trying to set up something to talk to him. Well, that's weird that, you know, it's like a, you know, a week or so after Trump, you know, and Pete Heggseth, they're saying, we're going to officially look into this stuff. Here's a guy who's cleared to everything. He's publicly associated with Tom DeLong and sort of some of these, you know, disclosures. And then you're looking into meeting him and then he just disappears entirely. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:28:16 It's a strange fact pattern. And then he leaves his phone, right? And he leaves everything. He leaves everything, but he takes a gun. Well, they don't know that he took a gun. Okay, but one gun was missing. Maybe missing. That's, it's not confirmed.

Starting point is 01:28:30 Okay. You really read through the reports. But there's also no, no ring. camera footage, no footage of him having love. It felt, to me, felt a little premeditated. Yeah. Well, the fact that the latest information is he went to REI and purchased a medical kit, like a travel, like a backpack, what you would take on a long hike, like some kind of medical.

Starting point is 01:28:51 Oh, whoa. So why, if you're going to go kill yourself in the desert, why would you take a medical kit? No, you wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think he knew what he was getting himself into. And then, yeah, I feel awkward bringing this up, but his wife, you know, made this call. And apparently he was not doing well, you know,

Starting point is 01:29:12 towards this, I think he was feeling a little anxious and like, you know, not in the greatest health. And so she says that to 911 and this call is like now, you know, out there. But she then follows up on Twitter and she says, like, you know, maybe the best explanation for this is an alien having, you know, abducted him from a mothership, although no mothership has been found in the local area.

Starting point is 01:29:38 That's strange. It is. It's strange. And you're asking for speculation when you say that. It's a weird, that's not a normal statement. It's not. And I guess people grieve in different ways. And maybe,

Starting point is 01:29:49 but her grieving is one of the most different ways I've ever seen someone grieve over the loss of their loved one. So I can't, I can't explain. But to your point, I agree. Her response has been very unusual. Definitely unusual. Speaking of unusual, you had going viral all over Twitter, this idea of this meeting of these high-level intelligence people

Starting point is 01:30:16 who seem to know more about the UFO issue than people, you know, than people on the civilian side. And they are meeting with these pastors and religious leaders across the country and convening them and telling them to prepare their churches, They wanted to have a meeting, an urgent meeting, where again, we go into this Airbnb, we have to turn our phones on airplane mode, there's no recording of the meeting. But ultimately, the purpose of it was disclosure is coming quickly. And these people who are working in government agencies are pleading with pastors. They're pleading.

Starting point is 01:30:51 Please prepare your people so that they are not deceived by what is coming. And you were somehow thrown into this whole conversation. Do you want to talk about this? that's a that's an that was that's an interesting side part of this whole journey um it seems like every time you have this conversation about UFOs and UAPs it always kind of brings up the the question of spirituality or you know are these angels are these people some people say they're all demons that kind of thing it but it inevitably always comes up um i don't know how to like explain this, but there's a group of people, and I don't even really know who they really work for,

Starting point is 01:31:35 but they are very clandestine. They are former special forces, former military intelligence, and are working for somebody in the private who is given them the ability to investigate this as a side task. That's my best guess, because you'll never get out of them who they really work for. they seem to be good actors because whenever I talked with them, they kind of bumped me is the best way to describe it in Washington, D.C., with it at a different meeting. The person that bumped me later on that night pulled me aside and said, hey, my name is not really X, Y, Z.

Starting point is 01:32:21 And I want to, but I really am looking out for you. And I can tell you that some of these people that we've been, been talking to you, you probably shouldn't be trusting, fully trusting. And I wanted to see if you want to sit down and talk. And he related with me a shared faith that we both are Christians. We both love Jesus. And so, and he was, I could, you know, I could tell that he was genuine, absolutely genuine in that. He wasn't making that part of. Sure. So I've, you know, at the end of day, I'll talk to most anybody. And I was open to talking with him and meeting with other people. It turned out that it was a fairly organized, well-funded operation of guys that are all, you know,

Starting point is 01:33:11 of Christian faith, who have a lot of concerns about some of the activity that's going on. and they wanted to kind of, you know, kind of maintain a contact, maintain a connection. They've, I would say this group has been extremely helpful to me. Extremely helpful. How so? They brought people, whether they're whistleblowers to me, they brought tips, they brought, you know,

Starting point is 01:33:39 lots of really good information. So I don't feel like they have, my personal interaction with this group is that they, they're actually, they're on my side. They want to be extremely helpful. And they're very transparent other than that they won't talk about their funding. What do they do day to day? Are they working with UFO stuff?

Starting point is 01:34:08 I don't, it sounds to me like they've got a contract to investigate a broader topic. and that UAPs are part of that. What's the broader topic? Could be, you know, incursions on the United States, like drone incursions, things like that. So, and I, that's just my makeup. I don't know exactly, just from having conversations with them. They also seem to be investigating human trafficking quite a bit.

Starting point is 01:34:40 So in any event, in the course of our conversations, that came up that, you know, one of these individuals is actually a chaplain, if you will, and he, I said, you know, you should, this topic really, the church needs to be prepared for this. And we need to have a conversation. Because a lot of people are going off on very wild tangents. And this, and my view is that this doesn't, this absolutely actually does not reject the biblical worldview. If anything, the more that I look into it, the more it really strengthens my faith. It more really strengthens, it takes the story of the Bible if you take this into context, right?

Starting point is 01:35:28 If it is true, it can take the story, the narrative, the biblical narrative, and put it on an epic scale, like a universal scale, right? Like this is a galactic story of the creator of the entire universe, creating all of these, you know, planets, all these. And it does make sense that there would be much more out there. There's a reason why there's all this space. There's got to be other things out there. And that if, of all the places chooses this location and this people and this species to want to commune with, that this God says,

Starting point is 01:36:07 I want to create my image is going to be this, being, this human, is going to be my, basically my representation to this whole universe. So to me, it takes that story and it puts it on a grander scale and explains potentially why if there's, if there's other beings. Timothy Alberino, I think, has probably done some of the best thought work on this. And so I would highly recommend people pick up his book, birthright because it seems to me it's a very logical way for a Christian to approach this. Well, anyway, these individuals were also kind of in the same vein and they decided they were going to put together a group of pastors kind of slowly bring them into this conversation, see where they are.

Starting point is 01:36:57 And they invited me to that event. I said, I couldn't make it. But I would be happy to be on a phone call. And so they brought me in. I said what I, basically what I've just said to you, which is that, look, it's important that we don't have, that we don't really just completely ignore this as a topic. If anything, if something does happen, it doesn't really shake, it shouldn't shake your worldview at all. And I, and I kind of explained how that didn't shake my worldview. And then they said, so then later on, these pastors started talking about this experience. and they, some of them put words in my mouth, if you will, saying that I said, what's going to happen. I think one of the pastors later on came out and apologized and said, Eric Burleson did not say this. I believe this.

Starting point is 01:37:53 But when I was saying it, I should have separated the fact that what he actually said versus what I believe. And what he said that he believed was that these are all demons. And I would not, I have not, I'm not going to jump to that kind of conclusion. Clearly that's not the case for you because you're looking into this stuff all the time. You wouldn't be spending all your time looking into demons if you thought they were all demons. Right, right. Yeah. Have you heard of this group called the Collins Elite by any chance?

Starting point is 01:38:24 I have, yeah. That's an interesting part of this whole narrative. Yeah, because, you know, like people like Lou Elizondo and a lot of the, the crowd behind, you know, to the Stars Academy and like a lot of the people around modern disclosure described the Collins elite as this sort of very embedded in the government faction of deeply fundamentalist Christians who don't want to study this stuff scientifically at all because they view it as demonic and they'll literally cite Bible passages around Lucifer being kind of the ruler of the skies.

Starting point is 01:39:01 do you think that this group that's in touch with you, is it all connected with the Collins elite? I don't believe so. I mean, but I don't know for sure. They could be, I think in general, and this is actually the opposite of what I was trying to get to, which is that, excuse me, I would disagree with somebody who is of the Collins elite view.

Starting point is 01:39:27 I disagree with a religious leader who definitively says we shouldn't be approaching this or talking about this topic because it is all demonic. I don't, like, I don't have the evidence that that's the case. If anything, as a Christian, what would you say to Mary when she was approached by the angel Gabriel? Don't talk to anything that isn't from this earth because it's all demonic. Right. Right. And so that, that's like the first thought that I have is that when you read the Bible, most of the times in which an angel or something that's not of earth comes forward. I mean, this is all assuming that that's what you believe. If we assume that what we're experiencing are beings that are described spiritually as either

Starting point is 01:40:17 angels or demons or, et cetera, part of that kind of category, then go back historically. Most of the time that people are getting a message or having a kind of. It's not from a fallen angel. It's from, it's from a messenger from God. Like the word angel literally means messenger from God. It doesn't categorically say that this is what, what this being is. It does describe different beings like cherubim, seraphim, right? The Watchers, which are kind of interesting. And they're all kind of utilized by God to be a messenger or an angel. But I mean, that's, a long tangent, but that's to say, when I apply my biblical worldview to this topic, if that were the case, I wouldn't necessarily jump to conclusion that they're all demons. Yeah. Which is why I don't really, I don't really have a lot of high view of the Collins elite perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with you. I think to say that, you know, none of the spiritual overlays that we've, you know, had for years, like, you know, a lot of, you know, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, like,

Starting point is 01:41:32 none of those apply as somehow to what we're looking at now, I think is dogmatic and crazy. Of course, like they might, you know, a lot of these things, I like the concept of Lindy. If something has survived for thousands of years, it probably has value. And so it probably has value as far as describing, you know, the nature of things, some archetypal value. And so to say that the Bible has no archetypal value, I think, sort of nuts. And then, yeah, I find myself sort of in between that. And then the other side is like, you know, sometimes I'll hear people like Sean Ryan or Tucker Carlson. They'll be like,

Starting point is 01:42:07 it's spiritual. And they'll be like, it's just, you know, it's demons or something. And it's like, well, what is an angel? What is a demon? Like, can we not inquire into what those things actually are? That's sort of a low-level descriptor that ends any conversation. Right. And you can't have one without the other, even in the biblical context. So some might be really good, you know. That's right. That's why, that's why, again, I go back to what Timothy, I think Timothy Albarino's work is, is, he's really kind of analytically, logically, logically approached this to say, for example, like, if you were visited by people from another country, go back in the time in which the, which the, you know, Europeans were colonizing the Americas, the Americas. some of them, not all of them were bad people. Some of them were good. Some of them certainly were bad. But like you, it's, I just think that you shouldn't, uh, categorize it all for sure. One thing, unless you absolutely definitively know. I agree. And I've seen a remarkably low amount of evidence for the space alien thing. Like, you can go back to, you know, certain abductions, you know, obviously, uh, Betty and Barney Hill saying they're from a binary star system mapped out looked like Zeta reticulai, things like that. They're, they're, they're, you know,

Starting point is 01:43:25 You can find a decent amount of things like that. Right. But there is just as much. If I wanted to steal man the argument for future human time travelers, and I wanted to steal man the angels and demons argument, you could just as easily steal man those things as you could space aliens. So it's all of them feel somewhat arbitrary. And I almost feel like the more worthwhile philosophical endeavor would be how would you reconcile all of those things? because maybe we're talking in these sort of limited frameworks and it's false dichotomies.

Starting point is 01:43:56 Right. Like maybe angels can fly to different planets and maybe they can travel through time. Maybe they're from different planets. Maybe they're from different planets. Right. Like maybe they are extra-dimensional. Maybe they're from different plants.

Starting point is 01:44:08 Or maybe there's also other creations at different planets in addition to, you know, categorically angels that are spiritual. I mean, who knows? Yeah. I find the modern conversation around all of this stuff frustrating because it feels like on the one hand it's like it's space aliens. And then on the other hand with Arrow, it's like it's nothing. And I think in reality, the people who say it's nothing know that it's actually, in certain cases they're bad faith actors that know that it's much deeper than the nothing. But they know it's actually deeper than space aliens too. So they actually know that there's something around the consciousness stuff, the fact that this is all kind of an interface. There's something deeper going on in reality. So they can in good faith people like Sean Kirkpatrick say, I have no evidence for extraterrestrials because it's such an oversimplification. That's right.

Starting point is 01:45:05 Well, and if there's no proof of where it came from, which planet it came from, then you could definitively, you could say, well, I have no evidence of extraterrestrial. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So I think that Yeah, I just Right now, anybody that says they have all the answers Clearly doesn't.

Starting point is 01:45:27 Yeah, yeah, anybody speaks with really high confidence. Says they're all good or they're all bad or I know where they're from. I love the information, the books that people send me, I've gotten some while. So I've, somebody sent me both volumes of the Encyclopedia Galactica. Mm-hmm. Which is, have you seen this?

Starting point is 01:45:43 No. It's very creative. But at this point, person has written hundreds and hundreds of pages with graphics and of different categories of species of aliens and which planets they're from. It goes in great detail. I'll try to get you copy of it. Oh, I'd love to check.

Starting point is 01:46:01 That sounds awesome. I mean, the level of creativity of that material is off the charts. It's off the charts. It's incredible. But yes, I agree when somebody starts to speak super definitively and confidently about alien race taxonomies. I'm like, I don't know. Where are you getting this? Right. You know. Show me the receipts. Show me the receipts. Yeah, but I'm down to read that book. That sounds awesome. If you were to pick anyone in government to subpoena or get endless time with in a skiff, you know, secure compartmentalized information facility on this specific issue, UFOs, who would it be?

Starting point is 01:46:41 I would say probably Glenn Gaffney, who is, you know, former CIA. A lot of people I talk to say that this is somebody that we need to talk to. And then Steve Cantrell, who's former Air Force, I think, senior intelligence from the Air Force. A lot of people will talk to. And then the other name that kept coming up, sadly, was General McCastland. And then there's another individual that has since passed away. And so those are the people that I would like to talk to. Can you say who the individual who passed away was?

Starting point is 01:47:13 I'm blanking on the name right now. I can get that to you. Okay. It's fascinating. It's such a weird, as I'm sure you're running into, like, org chart. Like, it's like often not the person who's the most superior in the particular organization that you're looking for. It's like the deputy that knows more than the superior. Right.

Starting point is 01:47:34 And there are these like weird cutouts. And I've never seen anything that cuts across so many government agencies, Air Force, Navy, CIA. Office of Naval Intelligence. It seems like all of these groups have NSA, all of these groups have something to do with this issue, but it's often these like vital sub compartments. It's not like from the top. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:47:57 It's so weird. It's almost as if like the aliens are like running the programs themselves or something. Because I don't understand. Look, you know this better than anybody. The government's not well organized and stuff leaks. And like, especially things that are that broadly distributed. So that feels like a really interesting feature of this whole thing. Just the organizational.

Starting point is 01:48:20 That's why I think that it's probably organized from the FFRDC level somewhere because then they can create the program and the reason for the funding and then report up only what they have to report up to get the funding necessary. So they create the special access program. They create a little vital sub compartment. And then they only have to report up a certain amount of stuff. And they're these subject matter experts. So that's interesting.

Starting point is 01:48:46 So they're the like vital core of this whole thing. Right. And honestly, from my experience in government, the higher you go, the more broad things are and the less people know or they act like they know. Or nobody really asks the right questions, especially members of Congress. Most of the time, they'll just take, you know, you'll pass bills that are appropriating billions and billions of dollars to programs with just very generic explanations as to what they do. Right. And often it sounds wonderful. I mean, look at what happened with USAID.

Starting point is 01:49:18 You had billions being spent and it would all sounded like rosy, very, very nice things. And then when you looked into it, it was, it was, when you look into the details. The CIA regime change or some, you know, diversity initiative somewhere or just some, there's just sometimes a nonprofit that was just taking the money and using it on nonsense. Playing for transgender comic books. certain countries. Just crazy. Right. Like what, yeah, what is that? So yeah, okay, that's interested. The broader you go up in the civilian government, the less of a handle they probably have on these things. Yeah, I mean, they certainly would have the authority if they wanted to to drill down and get and to pull that information out of them. But oftentimes, they're not

Starting point is 01:50:00 going to even know what questions to ask. And that's my experience. I truly feel like what we're experiencing right now with the White House, Stephen Miller is now leading up this investigation. The low-hanging fruit was to say, we know that there's a bunch of of these video files that are sitting at the Department of War in like Sipper and all these other because we know all these people are leaking them. So let's just release all of them. And so the first tranche, that's what you saw, is a bunch of videos from drones, from MQ9 Predator drones, where they've cited something that seems really strange. But then where do you go from there? Right. It's actually going to be a lot more sticky and difficult and you'll have to really roll up

Starting point is 01:50:42 your sleeve and you have to know where to go to ask the right and what questions to ask right and so to the point in which um i was kind of frustrated with the white house that they that they were doing this release and weren't working with the secret's task force weren't working through luna and myself and birch and then they called and said you know hey can you be can you say some positive things about the president's release from i said i don't even know what you're releasing you guys haven't said anything to us. You haven't included us. And the response was, well, we're absolutely going to be including you next because we really don't know exactly where to go next. Right. And when you hear that, when you hear people at the top saying, we need your help

Starting point is 01:51:27 knowing where to go look, that, to me, that is, that's the, that's really what we're experiencing. It's a little disconcerting because we, you know, it's a government buy and for the people. Yeah. And it's like, they don't. don't even have a handle on on this stuff, which seems like really important, you know, like the, the, the, the strategy they have, I think, is a good one. The from if they pull, if they actually, it will pull it off. And what will be the game changer is if they say, the president comes out and says, everyone's NDAs related to this topic are Nolan Void.

Starting point is 01:52:03 So that frees up a Lou Elizando and Chris Mellon and all of these people to be able to say David Grush and Jake Barber to say whatever they fully want to say. And then it also frees up anybody else who may have been waiting to be able to come forward. The other things they need to do is they really need to make it right to the people that have already come forward and suffered the consequences, like Grush, right? The people that lost their pensions, they lost their health benefits, that lost their clearance level. It'd be great if Grush was in a position of power. Because this guy did all the work. He compiled hundreds of pages of documents.

Starting point is 01:52:44 He gave it to the intelligence community inspector general. They said it was urgent, incredible. Like, I can't think of anybody better who just has access. But I think that's why he creates all the, you know, there are all these kind of allergic reactions to him. Right. Because he knows a lot. And I think people know he knows a lot.

Starting point is 01:53:04 They do. And that's why. I begged oversight to hire, the oversight committee to hire him. I begged anybody in the agencies that are investigating this. I'd love to hire him. Odie and I. I, I hired him.

Starting point is 01:53:16 Yeah. Because at least. That's a great hire. It's a good deal for you. I'd love to see O'D and I or the White House or, you know, like, you know, it'd be epic. If you had his knowledge combined with their ability to knock down doors. I mean, you're knocking down doors right now. But you must feel on.

Starting point is 01:53:36 level, you're like, why isn't he, you know, why isn't the president? Yeah. No, because the truth is, David can give me the information and I can go bang on the door, but I can't knock it down. Sure, right. But if he's working with President Trump, he could go blast the door open. Right. What do you think President Trump knows about UFOs?

Starting point is 01:54:00 My, I do believe he's been briefed. I don't know for sure. This is what I've heard, that he's been. briefed. There's a funny anecdotal story that comes with that, that I don't know if it's fiction or not, but it was that that Trump was, during that briefing, he was told that there are hybrids and told the narrative that there's hybrids that potentially live amongst us, and that Trump's response was, you mean like Adam Schiff? No way. Which is, which I could totally believe that he would say something like that.

Starting point is 01:54:34 Yeah, wasn't he briefed on like Nordics? or something like Nordic aliens. Yeah, something like that. And so, I mean, I don't know who briefed him. I was told that this, again, this is not definitive. This is what I've been, what I've heard. So who knows, he may, but it's clear he's not been briefed to the level of David, like what, or if he has been, he also may not just trust the people briefing it. Sure.

Starting point is 01:55:02 Yeah. It's such a weird topic. A good story that encapsulates the weirdness of this topic and is in the 90s. Clinton really wanted to be read it. He was really interested in this whole thing. And that's why, you know, Podesta later gets really involved. And so he's trying to figure out what's going on with UFOs, what's happening. And this guy Ron Pandolfi, who's at the CIA, he like is helping him.

Starting point is 01:55:29 And he gets this like civilian researcher, Bruce McAbee, to brief Clinton. And it's like, wait, that's the best you can get from briefing our president on this topic. And maybe if it's like a brief on this weird metaphysical thing that's weakly entangled with reality, that's one thing. But there's a whole gradation of possibilities here up until like literally flying objects that deliver payloads. And if you're not being briefed on that and you're the president, it's like you're not being briefed on like the next hypersonics thing that the U.S. has capabilities. wise, that's like insane. And like, so this topic is it breaks your brain when you hear stories like that. You're like, what?

Starting point is 01:56:13 Right. It makes you feel like there's some secret society, breakaway civilization. Like, like some of these UFO researchers, like Richard Dolan, you know, uses that kind of as like a conceptual, you know, maybe it's this. He's not a high conviction in it. But it kind of gets you into that territory. So where I'm at right now is that I think that it's either one of two things. it's one is that we're at a place where our military really doesn't and even all the way up and down the system, nobody really even knows what these glowing orbs are.

Starting point is 01:56:46 And that while we have this false belief that the government has this ability, that we have these craft, that we have this understanding, we have this false belief in that. We have way too much confidence in our federal government, which is, you know. Always a safe bet. Always a safe pet. So there's that, but that there is something mystical out there that we don't know. And certainly, obviously, there's things that we all don't know, right? And that being one of them. The other worldview could be that we, that there is a layer that knows what's really going on,

Starting point is 01:57:21 but it is, but it's this middle layer. Yeah. And that the information is only going to matriculate up if it's demanded or even on it, and then downward, it's compartmentalized, overly compartmentalized. And the question is, how do you get to that layer of the onion? And you get into really weird territory philosophically, too, because you can say, oh, it starts with the federally funded research and development centers. But then we were talking about this, you know, before we started rolling, it's like the,

Starting point is 01:57:50 if there is a feature around the UFO thing, it's the like chasing your tail dynamic of anyone looking into it. And I'm talking anyone. Even some of the people, you know, in the movie Age of Disaster, disclosure, like, are described as, like, outsider civilian investigators when, like, people who watch UFO shows think that they're, like, at the center of the thing. Like, no one's at the center of the thing. And then you get into the, you know, like, this guy mentioned Tim Taylor at Aerospace Corporation. He's saying he's taking orders from an angel and he's operating on, like, a higher mandate. And his whole hierarchy of the stratification of the government involves, you know, senior intelligence officials. And then I think it goes. you know, human alien hybrids, angels, like he has a whole thing that goes above the government. I've got to read Tim Taylor stuff.

Starting point is 01:58:42 Check this out. And he's a dude that's high function. He's been working on NASA missions since the Challenger, where he actually talks about Judith Resnick, who died in the Challenger mission. It really affected him. But he's a known entity at NASA. He's worked there for a long time.

Starting point is 01:58:57 And then he's also at Aerospace Corporation, like a very real guy. And then also, you know, clearly had dealings at the highest levels of government. He claimed to meet with the president, actually, in certain cases. And is showing up in these experiencers lives, too. He showed up in the life of Chris Bledsoe. He showed up with Charles Hall, who said that he lived with aliens at Area 51. He knows Whitley Streber.

Starting point is 01:59:23 So it's this very, he's almost like he's operating on some higher mandate. Like, who's ordering him to go, you know, talk to these experiences? experiencers. Yeah. I, that's wild. I do know, like, one of the individuals that that was brought to me was, was highly credible that that does receive what he describes as downloads. And this is not a, this is not a guy living in a van down by the river. This is a very respected individual in, in our, in our nation. Yeah. Not famous, but just a very respected business leader and, and thought leader. I know who this person is.

Starting point is 02:00:03 I'm not going to out him, but, yeah. But yeah, he has some very interesting experiences where he sort of channels prophecies. Yeah. And it's always hard to say because it's, you know, some of these things, you know, often feel filtered through the person. And sometimes they can be almost seductively adjacent

Starting point is 02:00:23 to true things. But they also feel like, how would you know that sort of thing, you know, really on the nose in certain, cases. And he reaches out to me, actually, because I'll often cover something with my show. And he'll be like, I channeled the exact thing or whatever. I'm like, whoa, that's kind of trippy. He's been a very, I think he's a fantastic person to know. Yeah. And I don't doubt him. I don't doubt that he believes that he's... I don't doubt his experiences. No. Yeah. And I'll

Starting point is 02:00:55 keep at high level. But yeah, he has a very impressive business track record as well. has done some remarkable things. Yeah, you don't operate at the level that he's operating if you, if there's something off. No, exactly. Well, that's what, I mean, I think a lot of people have this misconception that the higher you go in society, the, like, less trippy you get. Like, it's not functional to be out there and into metaphysics or eschatology or any of these things.

Starting point is 02:01:22 And I think it's the opposite. I think often the higher you go, the more like, ooh, there's something interesting going on. Maybe, yeah, because you start. you start you stop thinking about you know how am i going to pay for my boat or how am i going to like your maslow's hierarchy of needs that moves you to a point where you start thinking of the higher the hundred percent have you ever spent time around trump i have uh-huh because i want to i want to hear what that was like because tucker carlson was recently interviewed by the new york times and it was one of these clearly like kind of smug gotcha like new york times was trying to like

Starting point is 02:01:57 make him look like a fool or whatever. And he was like, it's a, I think he's described it as like a supernatural experience being around Trump. And Trump is like, he's a, he's a, he's a phenomenon of a person, you know, he like, he grew up at this, you couldn't write this up. His preacher growing up was Norman Vincent Peel, who wrote the power of positive thinking. And if you think about his whole thing, it's like this like kind of like, we're going to be bigger and we're going to be better, You know, it's just like, and it's sort of like manifest, and it ends up happening. And he's able to just, he keeps going. And so was that your experience?

Starting point is 02:02:35 What did you? I found him to be a very, actually very hospitable, very sweet and warm individual. And then at times the funniest person you'll ever meet. He will, especially, I mean, he's pretty much the same person on camera or on a stage. Yeah. Pretty much. I think he takes off the filter a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 02:02:54 He'll tell stories. Like, he told. I got to, the time I spent the most time with him was during one of the days that he was on trial. And it was the day that, um, that his attorney, um, Cohen was testifying against him. And it was so remarkable, that day was so remarkable because you had him on the stand admit that he's stealing money from Donald Trump. And yet he's a credible witness to, uh, to the, um, this, I think at the time it was his housing, like, that he had overvalued his property. or whatever. So he's got to spend a lot of time with Trump. What was also fascinating is this guy, one of the wealthiest people in the world, and when he orders food, it's just pepperoni pizza.

Starting point is 02:03:41 Just boxes of pepperoni pizzas. And he didn't, because normally, if you're going to order food for a group of people, you would probably do, you know, we'll do a few of this, few of that, few of this, right? Complicated a little bit. Trump is not, he's, he's, he kept it simple. you know, everyone's eating pepperoni pizza. Oh, it's hilarious. And he, I think, I believe he loves Big Macs. And I think he's a little paranoid and Big Macs are pre-prepared so that they can't be meddled with. But he's clearly running on some sort of junk energy that, like it, it really, you know, his father, Fred Trump, he believed that the human heart was like a battery.

Starting point is 02:04:21 So the more you worked out, the more you lowered the energy in the battery. Interesting. Yeah, so it's like, like, Trump's like eating Big Macs and pepperoni pizza and he's chilling at Marlago. And working all night long. Working all night long. He's sleeping four hours of night and he's, he's, what, in his early 80s now? Right, right.

Starting point is 02:04:43 And he's still going. He's a remarkable, whatever your politics are. It's like, that guy is. Physical specimen. He's a physical specimen. Yeah. Should be studied. He is the UFO.

Starting point is 02:04:57 The other thing I found in comical is we were in like what honestly the courtroom we were that we were in reminded me of the TV show Nightcourt. Like that kind of New York like everything's old, a little bit dingy, not exactly nice new furniture. And Trump commented several times about how much he loved the chairs in the side room that we were in. And these were not even nice chairs. He's like, I love these chairs. is so comfortable. I love, he was just commenting about something I thought. It just, that struck me, right? Yeah. Well, he, I mean, somebody like that has got to be operating at such a high level, but you also need that in-person charisma. And so you remember the little

Starting point is 02:05:40 details, too, in a way that probably just wins the favor of, like, everyone. And I'm sure there are tons of people who criticize him so much from afar. Yeah. And then they get pulled in by that handshake, and he starts talking and like, you know, they go go, go, go, gag, you know, I'm sure that happens all the time. Yeah. He does. No one has more charisma. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:06:02 Where do you think we go on, uh, on UFOs? Like, it feels like, look, for as much as we've been talking about kind of the quixotic, sometimes Sisyphian aspects of this whole topic, which feel, you know, like, very frustrating. Yeah. We've made a lot of progress. And I think you're, you're a big part of that progress. So I guess I'd love to hear, you know, maybe some behind-the-scenes stories of, like, what has led us to today, which we're at, we're at a historic juncture where we're getting releases from the Department of War. And then what do you see as like a go-forward outlook? I think we would not have been here had it not been for this, like, magic moment where we had, where we had, I'll begin with the bravery of people like David Grush and Lou Elizondo coming forward.

Starting point is 02:06:47 Admiral Gallaudet, you know, Dylan Borland, the list goes on, right? You've had some really brave people that have sacrificed their careers to come forward. And then you've had members of Congress who, I mean, selfishly, I'll say that it was not exactly an advice that was given to be by my campaign advisor. He said, do not talk about this topic. It's going to kill your political career because no one, this is not something that's going to advance you. people are going to smirk about it and you won't be taken seriously politically. I think it ended up working in River. I think people love you because you jumped into this.

Starting point is 02:07:25 I hope so. Yeah. But yeah, there's people like myself, Tim Burch, I'm going to say the godfather of Congress that kind of, you know, was willing to talk about it. And then obviously leadership of Annapalina Luna. And then us just as a team pushing and pushing, any moment that we would get, we would be telling the White House staff, you know, we would be nagging them about this. And then us trying to pass the UAP Disclosure Act language on the National Defense Authorization Act, you know, coming up and failing, but at least getting that spotlight put on it, that moved the ball.

Starting point is 02:08:02 But then when we finally got Trump in, and then he, he was, you know, following through on the disclosure of the JFK files, following through on the disclosure of MK Ultra and the Martin Luther. King Jr. files. All of all of these things. And even though it was sticky and messy, the Epstein files, you know, at the end of the day, Trump is the disclosure president. And when he finally issued this directed to release the UFO files, we are in a historic moment because you've had presidents that never wanted to talk about this that have always kept this secret. And this president and the fact that you have a combination of Congress that's willing to actually roll up their sleeves and do the work, this is a magic moment. And so, Where we go from here, I think, has to do with, you know, this task force that Stephen Miller is put together.

Starting point is 02:08:51 And the fact that Trump assigned Miller. That's his guy. Exactly. Yeah. He's the guy who Trump said first when he first came in assigned him to fix the border wall situation. And then so you know it's like those are his top priority. That's his top priority. Now he's assigned to this.

Starting point is 02:09:07 That's a big deal. So you got Stephen Miller leading the charge. He's a bulldog. And then you've got a team of people. the fact the fact they're making the CIA work come to the table they're making the Department of Energy talk about this that they're putting together this team i have i've got you know i'm skeptical but i've got a little bit of hope and then i what i'm trying to do is trying to hit the private sector get them on alert and then and a lot of the these letters that i'm sending to whether it's

Starting point is 02:09:38 mitre or rand or um miti lincoln labs we're we're working i'm saying i'm saying you know, basically telegraphing to the White House, hey, look at what I'm doing. You guys need to follow up and follow this investigation. And you're working kind of hand-in-hand with Grush on a lot of this stuff. Yes. And some others that are kind of advisors,

Starting point is 02:10:03 that are outside advisors. Any others that you can mention? That don't want to be public. Okay. Okay. What do you know? Because I think it's easy for, you know, people in the audience to be skeptical around reprisals that people faced.

Starting point is 02:10:17 I will say I have a nickname for that group, the lone gunman. Yeah, exactly. That are my little team of advisors. Oh, cool. Very helpful for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so have you, do you have any insight into the kind of pushback that people like David Grush have faced?

Starting point is 02:10:37 Yeah, I think that I got to see a meeting happen between Grush and someone from Odie and I that was a pretty blunt meeting where he was and you could tell they were basically apologizing for the way in which he's been treated over these years. And so I think the message that I'm trying to deliver to them

Starting point is 02:11:04 is it's going to take more than an apology. You know, you guys really need to you need to correct some of the things that have happened. Do you think we have saucers and hangars? Do you think we have real physical craft sitting in hangars? Do you think we have alien bodies in facilities? I don't have any evidence, but I hope we do.

Starting point is 02:11:29 I would love it if we do. That's what I'm trying to find. But I don't have any evidence of it. But if you had to guess, if you had to, I'm talking to the audience, this is, I'm making you engage in speculation. If it's like a yes or no. Probability-wise, I would say maybe, I would say a 10% chance that we do. 10%? Okay.

Starting point is 02:11:52 But worthy of investigation because of the implications of what we do and because of all the circumstance. It's game changer. It's breakaway technology. And honestly, if we did have it again, I go back to the time that I spent on the tarmac, I think we should all be frustrated that we are not able to share in this if there is a breakaway technology that's being hidden. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Congressman Eric Burleson, this has been an honor. It's been a lot of fun.

Starting point is 02:12:18 It's really refreshing, actually, to hear somebody who's just like, this is what was told to me. I'm cataloging it, and I'm going to look for more evidence, and I'm just going to follow the trail, and I'm not going to be dramatic about it. I'm not going to act all histrionic attention seeking, call myself a star seed, say people are coming after me. You know, there's a lot of, there's enough of that. Trust me. Right. And that's not to I don't indulge some of that myself with people I speak to. But, like, I know, I think what you have is missing. So I appreciate your just kind of hold candid approach to the whole topic.

Starting point is 02:12:51 I think that's really needed. I appreciate the deep dives that you do. I watch your podcasts. I sometimes have to chunk them because they're long. But I really love your work. You're an elite class, and the product that you produce is of the highest caliber. and I look forward to every episode. I don't know what to say.

Starting point is 02:13:11 That means so much. I appreciate it. Awesome. All right. Cool. If you want to access our episodes 24 hours early and want to watch them completely ad free, please consider supporting the show

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American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Congressman: “President Trump Was Briefed On Alien Hybrids!”

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