American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - DARPA Scientist: "Aliens Genetically Engineered Humans” (Ft. John Blitch)

Episode Date: March 8, 2025

Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to https://RocketMoney.com/jesse today. JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ��� https://whop.com/jessemichels Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with Lt. Colonel John Blitch—a former Green Beret, Special Forces officer, DARPA scientist, and cognitive psychologist—who shares some of the most mind-bending revelations on non-human intelligence, military encounters, and exotic technologies. With experience spanning special operations, advanced robotics, and national security programs, Blitch offers a rare insider perspective on the hidden realities behind UFOs, government secrecy, and his own paranormal experiences. In this explosive interview, Blitch lends credibility to military whistleblowers like Jake Barber and Randy Anderson, who have exposed UFO crash retrievals, hidden underground bases, and advanced technology programs. He also shares his own chilling encounter with a mantis-like non-human entity—a life-altering event that reshaped his understanding of reality, the human soul, and the nature of life after death. From classified radar tests possibly causing pre-Roswell UFO crashes to undisclosed evidence of artificial structures on Mars and the Moon, Blitch provides a compelling case for why humanity is on the verge of a paradigm shift. -------------------------- Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This big bug came, like, through the screen door on our deck, and he's standing over me. His little triangle face opens up and these jaws open up and he starts tugging chunks of flesh off of me. You know, from my cheeks, my shoulders, and he's flinging it. What? And there's blood splashing. He wanted me to know that they could. Rip me into shreds if they wanted to. But they couldn't get to my soul.

I'm here with my new friend John Blitz. Lieutenant Colonel John Blitz. Lieutenant Colonel John Blitch. Lieutenant Colonel John Blitch. You have maybe the most interesting CV of anybody I've ever interviewed. There was this agreement that you don't talk about Fight Club. Right? You don't talk about the ETs that we have all seen.

I think the really interesting phenomena that happens after that is you have all these really tough guys. who get spooked by really crazy, you know, entities that they encounter. A drop lands on my hand as on my handlebars. And then I realize it's red and it's blood. There is no reason for me to have this gushing bloody nose. And this is, and things get weird. I have this fuzzy memory of a fuel truck. what I thought was a fuel truck.

And so I kind of walk my bike up around it. And in the cab of this fuel truck is this guy with a red plaid shirt. Who is the guy in the flannel, the red flannel? Yeah. I was not prepared to talk about this in previous interviews. I'm here with my new friend, John Blitch. It's an honor to have you. You have maybe the most interesting CV of anything.

anybody I've ever interviewed. You were a Delta Force. You worked at DARPA. For a long time, you managed some very interesting programs there. You're a cognitive psychology expert and doctorate. Is that right? Well, I, you know, I'll push back a little bit on the word expert. Sure. Because one of my favorite definitions of expert was from Dr. Ruthmore, my first time through graduate school at the Colorado School of Mines. And she said, Because my first thesis was I built an expert system to recommend which robot to pick to go into rubble. And she said, you know, the definition of expert? I don't know.

This was, you know, in front of the whole committee. And she goes, well, X is an unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure. So everybody cracked up. I was loving it, right? And so, you know, I don't claim to be an expert in anything. All I would say is that I've made a lot of mistakes, and that's a good path to learning. So you really came on the public scene around this, you know, recent UFO whistleblower revelation. We've really crossed a Rubicon of sorts in kind of UFO alien world where you have this guy, Jake Barber,

who's went through kind of the combat control pipeline, you know, Air Force Special Forces. ended up being kind of sheep-dipped to use like an Intel military world term where he was sort of erased as a person. Like, yeah, he was director of helicopter, you know, operations or whatever for, you know, a specific company, generic company. But really, he was retrieving UFOs. And he has come out with a story via me and Ross Colthart. And he talked about retrieving an egg-shaped craft and then an eight-gone, you know, octagonal craft. And you've come out in support of him. And you've had some incredibly interesting experiences yourself that came out in this

Ross Colthard interview. And so do you want to talk about some of your own, you know, personal paranormal experiences? Sure, sure. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for letting me take off my academic jacket, right? I should have had, like, leather pads sewn on the sleeves or whatever and relax a little bit. Hence the shirt, right? I love the shirt. So, you know, the interview with Ross was pretty serious, right?

Because I was trying to help these guys and sort of support them so they didn't get whacked, right? I mean, that was deadly serious stuff. Yeah. So now in this environment with you, I'm kind of excited to let their hair down a little bit with a little hair I have and have some fun. Yeah. So, yeah, so we can get into some of those more open-minded speculation, wild speculation, sorts of things. But, you know, there's an underpinning of science that's really important up underneath this. And so I want to push back a little bit.

The Air Force doesn't use special forces. That's kind of an Army term. So Air Force is they have their ground special operators in order. organizations called Special Tactics Squadrons. And so Jake, what I was able to verify was his track record in a pre-CCT training program. And so that's as far as I was able to validate via his records. But it's still very impressive. And what's important about that is a lot of the military, whenever you, at least the way the

Army did it. Before we would go to scuba school, for example, Key West, the Army figured, you know, if we're sending these guys down to vacation land down there for three weeks, we're going to make them earn it. So it's going to be tough. And it was, as one of most difficult schools I've ever been through. Because most humans, oh, I would, I hate, I shouldn't say hate, but I, I am reluctant to put everything in one absolute declaration all, right? But the vast majority of humans are deathly afraid of drowning. That's why waterboarding works, right? And so holding your breath underwater and forcing you to build up your CO2, it's not

lack of oxygen, it's an excess of poison, the CO2 that builds up in your lungs. That can put anybody into a frantic state, pretty much. And that organization did that, the underwater operations group down there. So what we used to do is we would have pre-Scooba class. And that would kind of wash folks out so that before you spend all the money to send somebody all the way down to Key West in vacation land and absorb all those resources, you want to make sure they're going to pass. So typically the pre-Scuba, pre-Ranger, pre-CCT is usually more difficult. And so the fact that Jake made it through that is a big feather in his cap. And you believe him that he was then diverted to this sort of, you know, anonymized program where he was working for specific contractors to retrieve non-human craft?

Yes. I believe him. Again, I always make this distinction about what I know versus what I believe. And you believe. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it's not just based on him. When we first met, I made all four of his full team before. And I was looking for inconsistencies between those folks. It's kind of part of tradecraft that we're trained in, you know, to try to figure out if you're walking into an ambush.

It was me against these four guys, and they all could have, any one of them could have kicked my butt. Never mind, four of them. Don't believe the Chuck Norris movies. I love Chuck Norris, but don't believe. lead those movies. Because one person against two is you're having a really tough time. You've got to be superhuman to even beat those odds. For my for my black belt test, I had to fight five other black belts at the same tongue. And I got my nose broken by my sensei's daughter, 18 years old. And it's a very humbling experience. So trying to see all four of those folks collaborate, I was looking for

the slightest little glance between eyes between each other and never saw the slightest hint of a red flag. So collectively, they all validated each other. And that, if they fooled me, you know, certainly my ego is part of this, right? I don't want to believe that I can be fooled, just like the vast majority of people don't want to believe that they can be fooled by flying saucers. Everybody can be fooled. Yeah. But, you know, for me, it's a strength of belief, right? So we were talking about probabilities.

Really? And probabilistically, I'm going to assign my belief in Jake and his team collectively at 3 Sigma, right? So one sigma is, what, 66.66? It's 97%. So that's an A? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm talking A plus, right? 99% sure that what he told me on my boat and all of our interactions thereafter.

I'm up there too on especially the prima facie story. And then the thing where I feel like even he would have maybe 1% plus doubt. I don't know where he's at. But like, was this egg shape craft non-human? It's, to me, it's, you know, if it's just like the UAPTF, Jeff, you know, is assessing it. And then he's going off his own knowledge, which is clearly advanced when it comes to aviation, you know, and then it just looks very anomalous. It's still like, what is that thing?

I don't know. You know, they're like, what do you think? Well, you know, I think the two most important things that I took away from that interview. Now, when I did my interview with Ross, I had not seen Jake's or Fred's or Don Paul's interview. So we were all, and I understand why Ross probably one of the. do that. Yeah. Just like you said, you want to kind of do things independently to make sure that there's no

coordination. Coordination cross talk, right? And so I get that. But I was deeply emotionally moved by his tears. Yeah. I felt like I was possessed by the most beautiful spirit I'd ever been possessed by. And when he was talking about that feeling of love coming from whatever the, whatever the craft it was, I don't think. it was coming from the egg. He was telling that. That was the eight gone, octagon, shit crap.

So that was extremely powerful and extremely important that, you know, this Independence Day alien invasion, you know, rhetoric and narrative, we really need to squash that down. And then the second most important thing, or actually, I think that was the second most important thing. because of the viability and so forth. And I picked up on that when we were out of my boat. You know, originally I was trying to convince them to come forward, help convince them. But the most important thing was his refutation of ontological shock.

And he said, and I asked him immediately after I saw him, called him and said, hey, can I use that quote in my book? If I ever get this damn book published. I don't believe in ontological shock. I believe in ontological relief. And I couldn't agree with him more that I think, you know, current society is, look, we are sick and tired. We have lost all faith and confidence in our government, not just our government, but the

world's governments across the board. So we're way ready for this, right? And so that was my most important takeaway from what he said. And, you know, the other aspect of that that's kind of interesting, hypothetically, you know, since we're happy speculation here, right? You know, maybe that craft itself could have been a living being, right? You know. You hear that. Yeah.

From time to time. So the woo-woo literature, you know, in my two libraries, my peer-reviewed academic literature on one side of my basement and then my woo-woo literature on the other side. those are really starting to overlap now. Yeah. You know? And so there's plenty, plenty of data in the woo-woo literature that supports that these craft may be living entities. Well, let's get into that because you've had experiences since you were a kid, and I want to get into those core experiences as well.

But just the idea that these might be living beings, I find it so interesting. are so indexed on like, was it non-human or was it human? And then what if you see, what if you get what you want and you see that high fidelity, you know, 8K video of a thing and a hanger or you step inside the thing? What does that get you? What, you have no idea what you're looking at at that point. And so to the extent you've been studying this stuff for decades, because you call yourself part of the invisible college, you know, what, um, what, what, what are. are we looking at? What's the greater ontology or worldview or like metaphysics that comes with aliens, which have to just be like the tip of the iceberg?

Fellow alchemists, it's a new year, and that means it's time to get organized and take control of our financial wellness. For me, Rocket Money has been an absolute game changer. It helped me uncover all sorts of subscriptions I totally forgot about. Like a few, I had no idea I was paying for months after I stopped using the services. With Rocket Money, I canceled these in just a few clicks, saving money instantly. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Seeing all your subscriptions in one place is such a relief. You know exactly where your money is going. For the ones you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. No awkward

phone calls, no hassle, just savings. Rocket Money also gives you a clear view of your expenses across all your accounts. You can create personalized budgets, track your monthly spending trends, and even set goals to save automatically for big purchases, paying off debt, or just building your savings. It makes staying on top of your finances easy and stress-free. Rocket Money has over five million users and has saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with RocketMoney. Go to RocketMoney.com slash Jesse today.

That's rocketmoney.com slash jesse. Yeah. And it is a big iceberg, right? Because all we see is the very tip, right? So it's a small portion, but ontologically speaking, based on not just the peer-reviewed stuff and the woo-woo, but the intersections between those, my belief is that we are a up-and-coming species

in a galactic society teeming with life. And it's simply a numbers game, right? So Web Telescope was growing up, and you look at all those little dots, and I'm fascinated. And the little dots are, you think they're stars, you're told they're stars. So those, oh, those must be solar systems. And then as we go from Hubble to Webb, and we realize, well, wait a minute, those aren't solar system. Those are galaxies. So a galaxy with billions of solar systems in them.

And then the dust that you see in the background, those are galaxies. Yeah. Right. And so it's just mind blowing the magnitude of that, right? And so the likelihood that, and then when you take the age of all this are what, four billion years here, right? And you extrapolate from that? it's it is a ridiculous notion that we are alone i so i agree with that and you know the drake

equation the fermi paradigm all these things mathematically pointing to you know it being occum's razor that we're not alone you know the the the most likely answer is that we're not alone and simultaneous to that how do we know that our cosmological models are right at all because we're probably our physical models of the universe are are always wrong at any given time. They've just always been wrong historically. So they're probably wrong now. And I think about like a rocket that's two degrees off course and then it ends up, it ends up 99 degree, you know, it's like error propagation. It ends up like way off course because it's two degrees off course and then that multiplies down the line. It's not linear. So like what if that's

true with our models of physics where our understanding of, you know, the microscopic might be way off. Like we can bear it. We can't figure out quantum gravity, for example. There are like issues with our understanding of the physical universe on like a really small scale. So given those issues, wouldn't you end up with a scaling problem in physics itself where our cosmological models end up like this crazy kind of glued together patchwork quilt? And we're probably so off on like even, you know, a lot of that stuff. And yes, you can see some of it, obviously, with James Webb and Hubble and that sort of thing. But, I mean, who knows? Like, you have this idea of an observer-dependent universe, like the Wheeler thing or, you know, delayed choice stuff.

And if any of that, if that or like these, you know, the anthropic principle, you know, the idea that, like, you know, maybe physics and the universe itself is comported to our perceptual filters, you know, then, like, what do we know at all about anything? Like, it's just like extremely, you know, complicated. Like, maybe, I don't know. What do you think? Well, so let me back up to the Fermi paradox, which I claim is absolute BS. I love the guy. I respect the science.

Yeah. But it is based on a very flawed assumption, which is, okay, if there really is this cosmic galactic society, where are they? Right? Why aren't they landing on the White House lawn? Well, the underlying assumption with all of that is that they want to reveal themselves from a special forces parachute behind enemy lines and study a society and then pick them, choose them, and then train them to rise up against their own tyrannical government. We don't want to be found. And so my overlay of my bias is sometimes they want to be found. Sometimes they don't, just like we did. Sometimes we want to be seen blowing up a bridge to show that that country cannot defend its own people, right? Or maybe we stay behind and we get some of their own folks to do it. So it's part of this influence.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's also, you know, you have like the three-bush. body problem, this great Chinese sci-fi trilogy, and in that you have the dark forest analogy, and this idea that it's actually adaptive often for aliens to hide themselves

or to infiltrate and to do sort of deceptive scheming and not to just, like, land on the White House lawn. And especially if you're dealing with this sort of un-evolved, like, if humans are like not where we need to be and you present yourself and you're seen

as this kind of foreign invader or whatever, like that's not going to go well, right? So you'd rather just like incept them with ideas, kind of subtly manipulate them or whatever, but go about your business. And it's actually adaptive from a survivalistic standpoint to just not, not even show yourself, not really. Absolutely. Well, and you can totally invalidate, if you're a behavioral scientist, right, you can totally invalidate all of your experimental results, trash your own experiment by revealing yourself, right? And so we have this notion of informed consent. We were talking about this. last night about the, the, maybe there's a galactic IRB, institutional review board that, that's really fascinating. So it's almost like, yeah, you can't bias the experiment, so you can't show yourself. That's so interesting. Do you think that we are, humans are an experiment, some sort of genetic experiment? My belief is that absolutely. Absolutely. From what occurred with me,

And again, a lot of the experiencer literature is strongly suggestive of that. And a lot of us, I don't want to speak for all experiences, all abductees. Abductees are a subgroup of experiences. There are plenty of people that have interactions, right, that are positive and kumbaya and good for you. There are others of us that have been terrified. right and feel like lab rats however in retrospect you know i was young and and combative yeah uh and angry yeah i have a whole chapter about the angry young man when i talk about you know breaking hockey sticks and baseball bats in my backyard because i was so upset because i was i was

paralyzed and violated and raped right and all those aspects of it yeah and so I can't deny that maybe that was a motivation to become a fighter. Yeah. And end up in the line of work that I ended up in, in the Hosta Dreskes. It is this extremely common trope in abduction experiences where they say, you know, gametes are collected often in unceremonious ways. So, you know, sperm and eggs. And it's often sexual in nature.

And genetic material or tissue is sometimes called. collected, and that's just super common fact. Even going back to Betty and Barney Hill, one of the kind of proverbial famous cases in the U.S., I think 1961 in New Hampshire, Barney Hill afterwards very reluctantly admitted that sperm was basically extracted from him. And, you know, it's this, it's this probably hard thing to process. You look at the free Edgar Mitchell studies on abduction, so, you know, some of these larger databases, like a very high percentage involved this sort of tissue sampling, gamete collection. So it almost points to us being, yeah, some sort of experiment, genetic experiment.

Yeah, absolutely. So personally, I don't have any recollection of anything sexual with any of my experiences, but that doesn't limit me from being compassionate towards other people who have. Yeah. So when you say raped, you just mean your space was totally violated and? Yeah, a violation of, well, any manipulation of your body without your, consent, right? Arguably, that's of that nature. So, so, there are a lot of folks that feel that way. But for me, in my experience, the most terrifying one, it was, I consider it a gift because

it woke me up to the notion that, you know, this body is just a sole housing mechanism, right? It's a biological craft or vessel, right, with which you learn, right? And if you make some really stupid mistakes like I did and almost lost my leg, then it's a mechanism to learn through, right? And so this is, so it was very much a gift. But as a youngster, a combative commando where I was all about, you know, know, violence for justifiably for good reasons, right? I'm going to, we're going to break in and rescue these folks, right?

And if we have to take another human life, then so be it. That's a necessary evil for the, for the, as Spock would say, the needs of the many outweigh, the needs of the few, right? So the few bad folks, if we get to whack them to get the good folks out, that's the way my mind worked. So I believe that they had to penetrate my resistance on a same level. So they had to use violence to come after me to wake me up to that whole notion. So overall, the experience is an enormously positive one. But when you're young, you don't realize that. Right? It's kind of like as a parent, you've got to watch your kid fail, you know, like they're going to touch that hot stove.

You've told him a hundred times. All right. Let her do it. See what happens. Okay, sweetie, I told you. And that's just part of the process sometimes. So that's the way I've thought about it. So, John, you had your own alien experience.

Yeah, yeah, I think. And I can put that into the knowledge side versus the belief side. So I talk about, you know, how I don't remember being born. So all I can do is believe that I was born in Idaho Falls in 1959. Because I don't have a memory of that, right? But I do remember walking all those punishment hours at West Point, right? So I know that I got on a lot of trouble at whoops, which is my favorite dink thing for that place because it's something I said almost every day, you know, might leave you're right. Oops, screwed up again, right?

And so the two memories that I cannot dismiss as dreams or sleep paralysis and we can get into that, the science behind that, are, a missing time mountain bike ride and a terror-filled night after which I woke up with bruises. And so the mountain bike ride essentially was at least five hours of missing time, if not more. And so I'd gone for a ride on my mountain bike, and on the way back, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, wasn't a very physically demanding ride. It was in 1995. It was right after the Oklahoma City bombing. And I was in this mode of, you know, riding up into nature and meditating to try to kind of come to grips with some of the traumatic stuff I saw there, you know. A young lady had to get her leg amputated just to get her out of the rubble, a lot of other stuff. I tell a story about when I first came

into the Murr Building through the back, which was still intact. There was a parking garage back there. And I came upon this wheelbarrow. And right as I was, you know, I already signed in. I was allowed to volunteer since I had TSSCI clearances. And because it was a crime scene, you know, they were really keeping all the volunteers away unless you had a secret clearance because it was crime scene, right? And so they had trusted that.

So anyway, so I was all excited and ready to start helping out. And so I walked up to this wheelbarrow. And I heard this voice from behind me from the entrance, you know, scream, stop. And so I froze in my trash right as I was about to grab it. And because I thought the wheelbarrel must be being used to get rid of the debris. And somebody had just filled it up and hadn't gotten over there. and then I realized that, you know, there was a stench, and it took a little bit to get through my mask, and it was a smell of rotting flesh.

It was horrible. And then I happened to glance up, and there was this beautiful purple chiffon material that it took me a few seconds to realize that that was a human body. and that was she had been blown up into the rebar steel reinforced concrete and the reason a wheelbar was there was to collect her on trails so there were there was a lot of human tissue and a pool of blood and so that's why the voice didn't want me to move that so that stuck with me over the years or over the, yeah. So when I got back, so I was dealing with stuff like that. And so I took this mountain bike ride.

Pretty stand for me on a weekend, right? Go get a workout, meditate up on top of this beautiful park called Daniels Park. Still there. Very built up now since then, over 30 years now. Where's Daniels Park? Danis Park is south, let me see, southwest of Denver. So it was a sort of a little yuppie neighborhood that we had bought a house in. So it was very remote at that time.

Now it's its own city. But at that time, it was just this old ranch. So happened to be co-located with an ancient Indian burial ground. And so I have a bit of Native American blood in me. My great-grandfather took a Sue wife when he was traveling West as part of, I don't know, if there's the gold rush or what. So always very respectful of Native American cultures. Not to mention, I saw Jeremiah Johnson and what happened to the folks when they violated that,

any bearer ground, didn't go well, right? Maybe we could talk about that in this notion of, you know, advanced cultures meeting less advanced cultures and usually doesn't go good for the less advanced ones, right? Yeah. Anyway, so I had ridden by it several times and just noted it. Not a big deal, but this time, for some reason, and I still, to this day, I don't understand why, I turned around and suddenly felt an obsession that I had to go in. So I grabbed my mountain bike and I climbed up over this fence, got on the other side,

and I climbed into the saddle and I was going to ride down. I was like, no, that's not respectful. You don't ride a bike in a cemetery. Matter of fact, you'll get fined, you'll get thrown out of any national cemetery. You try to ride a bike in Arlington. Good luck on that. You will do some time in a slam one, literally put up, because it's just so disrespectful of all the vitamins, whatever. So I started walking, and then I felt a drip on my nose. And again,

scientifically with Occam's razor trying to slice through anything, eat them now. But I wasn't, I wasn't sweating. Why? It wasn't hot. I was coming downhill. If I anything, I was a little bit, you know, cooled. So why am I sweating? And it, and it, a drop lands on my hand as I'm on my handlebars. And then I realize it's red and it's blood. I'm like, oh, crap, I got a bloody nose. But it wasn't just like a drip every few seconds. It suddenly became a gusher. I'm like, what the hell is this? I mean, I didn't fall off my bike. We'd been living here for a year. And so it wasn't like I'm suddenly dry. I'm thinking of all these mechanisms, right? And so there are a lot of experiencers and abductees who do this to ourselves. We try to scientifically

dismiss it. Randall Nickerson, one of John Mack's patients, and I talked about this at length, that we don't want to believe it. So we try to categorize ourselves some other way. So I'm trying to convince myself, I hadn't fallen off my bike. There was no reason for me to have this gushing bloody nose. But I laid down and I was out immediately. Like it didn't take more than a second to me be unconscious. And I woke up freezing. I woke up shivering, which is common, you know, the front range of Colorado was pretty desert-like. And so, after the sunset, you know, it wasn't, it might have been, I don't know, 60 degrees or whatever, but without moving, you know, and I felt like I had bonked somehow, you know, that I had

reached a level of exhaustion, which didn't make sense for a half hour, 45-minute bike ride. It didn't make any sense at all. So I ended up in this, continuing in this anomalous behavior. So as a behavioral scientist, I know what is normal for most folks, and I certainly know what's normal for me. And it didn't make any sense that I would haul that bike up to this mesa where this bright light was shining, a bunch of bright lights. And in my mind, I felt, since I was attending the Colorado School of Mines, that it must have been a drilling rig. right and it didn't occur to me why they must have gotten some permit to drill in this in the burial ground I can't imagine how they did that but let's go check it out excuse me so I was a moth to the flint and I dragged that mountain bite through all the scrub oak

scratching me and I get up on top there and and this is and and things get weird it's already kind of weird. But now it's really weird because I have this fuzzy memory of a fuel truck, what I thought was a fuel truck. And so I kind of daintily kind of walk my bike up around it and I look up into the cab of the fuel truck at about, I don't know, 20 degree angle maybe or whatever. And then the cab of this fuel truck is this guy with a red plaid shirt. And at that point, I become very anxious and afraid. And I turn around and I walk my bike back around the back of that fuel truck. And I sense that there's a clearing over in front of the fuel truck with a bunch of other lights or whatever.

So I'm imagining, you know, some sort of drilling operation. You know, maybe there's two or three vehicles over there with the big, you know, drill or whatever. But I don't have any, I don't have any crisp memory of that, which is just weird. And so I'm going back through the scrub brush. I know that there's kind of a clearing and there appears to be a road over there. But rather than walking my bike over to the road, I keep walking it through the scrub brush. it makes no sense. But I'm growing, I'm very afraid of those lights and that area over there.

So I skirt around as soon as I get to an open enough segment of the road that I can, I jump on that bike. And I am pedaling to save my life. And I am just terrified, screaming as fast as I can go. I go down this hill and I see a light on. at a ranch house. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, I've left whatever that was back behind me. Now I start thinking,

I need to call Cindy, my wife, and let her know, because, I mean, it's not like a half hour after sunset. It is several hours after sunset. And so I'm just going to stop in on this ranch house and ask them to use the phone. You know, this is 1995. There's no cell phones, right?

So I go down this, you know, it's kind of a long dirt driveway. And I stop about halfway down because I realize there's no lights on. I'm thinking, you know, at worst, I might interrupt him in the middle of dinner. No lights on. So then I realized, oh, wow, it must be really late. And so I stop, I turn around and I go back out to the main dirt road and I, And I pretty much coast most of the way back to this hardball is highway called Highway 85, right? It's a four-lane highway and very little traffic, which is another surprise.

I mean, if it's just after dark, why isn't there any traffic? I mean, there might have been one car every five minutes or so. And so finally, I'm starting to feel safe because I'm on this pavement. and there's people around and I'm like, okay, all right. So, and then that's when I hit the wall. It was a full out bunt, kind of like Heartbreak Hill in the Boston Marathon, and you're like, I just ran into a wall so I could barely stay on my bike. So I'm cranking, you know, one, two, three.

I set up a rhythm and I climbed the shallow hill and I take a turn and I see this 7-Eleven, so I stop the 7-Eleven. and I'm exhausted and super dehydrated. So I go in, I get off my bike, I see a police car, police cruiser in front. And as I'm walking past the police cruiser, windows are down. It's still fairly warm. And I thought I heard my name as I walked by, but I didn't stop.

You know, Tradecraft kicks in and I just, I'm slow for a little bit, and I just open door and going, and I get these three, 30, two-ounce Gatorade, orange Gatorade jugs. And I downed one of them before I even got to a cash register and threw a 20 on the, on the counter and walked out. How old are you at this point? Let me see. So this was 95.

So I was born in 59. So what's that? 36. Yeah, ish. Yeah. So this, and I'm in pretty good shape. And are you in special forces at this time? No.

I had just finished seven years in special forces. Five command tours spread over seven years. The first of that was as a prison two missile guy. And then the final four were in special ops. Okay. So I felt like I was in pretty good shape. So get your Gatorade. Get my Gatorade.

Well, the other one I just put in the trash as I was walking out, cop gets out of the car, comes up. Says, are you, Mr. Blitz? and I said, yes, there I am. And I was about to ask him why, am I in trouble, whatever? He goes, okay, well, I just want to let you know, your wife called in a missing person's report. And so if it's okay with you, I'm going to radio in that we have found you. And, you know, would you like a ride home?

Now, the ego says, hell no, you never accept a ride from anybody. I'm going to carry my own rucksack all the way home, blah, blah, blah. But what I really said was, hell yeah, I'd love it, right? I was flipping exhausted. So he threw it back and I go home. And that was that conscious memory. I don't even remember going in the house and climbing into bed. I don't remember anything.

But I do remember a dream that I thought was a dream around that same. time, but it wasn't, it was an anomalous dream. You know, I've come to realize those, the differences between crisp memories, right, and these fuzzy memories. And so then I had this remember this dream that I thought had occurred like weeks later or at least several days later where this this big bug came like through the screen door on our on our deck this is a deck that's three stories up above the the backyard and there's no stairs so it's only you can only get to it through the screen door off of the master bedroom and just walks right up through that and he's standing over me

and he's he's conveying to me telepathically What does the bug look like? Big grasshopper, big praying mantis thing, big eyes and kind of a triangle head. Wow. And so, but I wasn't, I wasn't afraid. It was similar to like close encounters of the third kind, mantis? I don't remember any mantis and I thought there was a bit maybe this is a Mandela effect or something but anyway you keep going

all I remember is the little gray guys and maybe a tall skinny guy I think there was a tall tall manchantis yeah in the back yeah I don't remember any mantis in that but um but he uh was chastising me and he was he was sort of lecturing me in sort of a condescise sending instructional way commanding me to stop wiggling around. And he's telling me, look, you're, this body that you got, it's nothing but a soul container. And we can't do anything to hurt that or steal it or damage it. we can do a lot of damage to your body. If we want to, we don't want to.

We're trying to help you. So quit squirming around and we're going to do some tuneups here. We're going to work on it a little bit. What do you think the tuneups were? How are they trying to help? I don't know. And I never got that level of detail. All I got was, don't be afraid.

There's nothing to be afraid of. We're trying to help. help you. And as an example of how bad it can get, he opens his little triangle face, opens up and these jaws open up, and he starts tugging chunks of flesh off of me. You know, from my cheeks, my shoulders, and he's flinging it, and there's blood spatter and everything, and it should have been absolutely terrifying. Were you bleeding? I felt the tug on my face.

But she's ripping skin off your face. Yeah, I felt the tug. What? And there's blood splashing. And the whole time, he's like, see, this is what we could do to you easily. But we're not doing that. Afterwards, were you bloody due to that? No, never any indication of anything.

This is like mental imagery that I'm receiving. Okay. So this doesn't feel like a physical. No, it did feel like it. It felt like he wanted me to feel the violence. He wanted to simulate that you could. Right. He wanted me to know that they could rip me to shreds if they wanted to.

But they couldn't get to my soul. And even if I died in that process, I'm going to come back. There's a soul that's going to come back. And who knows? I might come back to one of them. And come at that. So that was all that, in a very intense moment, that lesson, that just quit squirming around and let us get this freaking done. Okay?

And then boom, I was out. That was it. So that was what made that so powerful scientifically is sleep paralysis. doesn't last for five hours. Yeah. And sleep paralysis doesn't result in my wife getting in her soccer mom van and taking my two daughters and traveling up and down that ridge line for hours looking for me. Wow.

Right? And so we can get into more sleep processes a little bit. So there was, you know. Did you have any after effects physically? Did you have any marks, any implants? What is up, Alchemists? If you're interested in joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive, never-before-seen episodes of American Alchemy, like my walk-and-talk with Danny Sheehan on who exactly killed JFK, or a remote viewing debate between Hal Put-Off and Eric Weinstein, then please join our WAP community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new WOP. I also hosted a discussion between the infamous Jack Sarfadi and former American American alchemist, Science Bob McGuire. Head over to WAP dot com slash Jesse Michaels, Michaels with No-A, to become a member today.

That's WAP dot com slash J-E-S-E-M-C-H-E-L-S. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of today's episode. Not that I know, but here's a really interesting aspect to this phenomenon. Mm-hmm. Is that pretty much across the vast majority of cases that I've read about, there is a common factor that I like to coin or I like to capture in the term irrational ambivalence. And what happens to a lot of experiencers is they have these anomalous events that occur and that are independently cooperated by a next door neighbor, your family, your loved ones, your teammates.

And they're like, don't you remember this or that? Don't you remember that you walked back into the foxhole? Don't you remember that we were looking for you? Don't you remember the cop? And there's often a like, yeah, but so what? And so it's an irrational response to something that should be at the forefront of all of your behavior, you should be looking into that.

I should have been checking for my cheeks or whatever. Nothing. I did tell my wife about that dream. And she was like, yeah, okay. And it was this ambivalence, this laissez-faire attitude towards it all. So it's almost as if in a hypnotic suggestion, you're told, in many cases, we are told,

don't worry about this. You won't need to remember this. And I think it's an act of compassion so that we can lead relatively normal lives after we are let out of the cage, right? The lab rats get released into the backyard, right? Go live your life. That's what, yeah, Mario Woods stationed at Ellsworth Air Force Space

in South Dakota. He had an experience where he was abducted. He's a mutual friend. I know you guys are friends as well. And he said that the beings, came up to them, they kept saying, do not fear, do not fear. That was like this recurring kind of trope. The words, do not fear. Travel through my body like a vibration, like a, like a hiss. But I kept hearing over and over, do not fear, do not fear. Do not fear. That's, wow. Do you have a

sense? Because he says he became interested in things after that experience that he wasn't prior. And he realizes he's like, I know this sounds kind of weird, but he's like, I got very interested in pyramids. Is there something like that for you where you became newly interested in certain topics? Did you have a mission that you didn't prior? I didn't become interest in pyramids, not right away. But I did change my behavior that in a way that was reported to me by my wife and my daughters, which was I suddenly wouldn't squash a bug or use a flyswater.

I would go to the kitchen, grab a glass, tell my daughters, don't squish them. I would escort these bugs out of the house. Specifically all animals or bugs? Pretty much all animals. Because I was going to say if it was the bug thing, then it might have been the mantis specifically that you felt an affinity for. Right. But it was like dogs too. You felt like more loving towards or was it bugs?

That's a good question. And I don't, my first wife passed away in 2014. I'm sorry. Wonderful and angelic soul. And sometimes I wonder if my current wife is her reincarnated. Wow. Or if there was some, because they're so similar. Wonderful.

Absolutely wonderful people. And so I should ask my daughters that. If my attitude towards our Labrador Retriever changed at all. I don't have a conscious memory of anything changing. But I do remember the bug behavior, the insect behavior, which is really interesting. And up to that point, I mean, I thought, like the vast majority, of humanity or our society in the mid-90s, all aliens were the little gray guys.

Yeah. All aliens looked just like Stephen Spielberg represented in close encounters. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so I was totally unprepared for anything looking like a bug. And so that reinforced my perspective at the time that it was just a dream. Yeah.

So that was one. what I call an irrefutable case that I cannot scientifically dismiss as a dream. Because a dream doesn't result in your wife searching for you. For hours and calling the cops.

No. Who is the guy in the flannel, the red flannel? Yeah. I was not prepared to talk about this in previous interviews, but since we're in speculation world here. Yeah.

And I can let my guard down a little bit. And I thank you for that. I thank you for this environment to be able to do that. So I do want to talk about a little bit of the science behind this if it's okay. Right. So after I told that story on a previous interview, and I've been coached and cautioned many times, look, don't look at the social media.

Don't look at any of the responses to this. don't go back and look at it. And so for the longest time, I didn't. But I did, you know, take a peek. And probably the most vicious trolls that were coming after me was like, this guy claims to be a psychologist and he doesn't even know what sleep paralysis is. So for all you trolls out there, I love you, and I'm going to push back in a loving manner as if we were on opposite football teams, okay?

Um, yes, I know a lot about sleep paralysis as part of my training. Sleep paralysis lasts a few seconds, maybe a few minutes. It does not last for five hours. No, something would be very wrong. it lasted for five hours. It does not. In fact, it feels longer than it is. I think the felt sense of it is like that it's half hour, an hour, but it's really splits

its seconds often. Yeah. There's a lot of time distortion in human memory. Yeah. And that's also correlated with risk. And so if you do one of these adventure rides, like a roller coaster or you get dropped, it seems like time slows down,

but that makes sense evolutionarily, right? Because you want to know all the details when you're fighting that saber-tooth tiger, you need to know every single detail because if next time you're going to have a chance at sending them off, maybe you should slow it down and recognize all that. So it makes a lot of sense evolutionarily.

So sleep paralysis, does not explain five hours of absence. It doesn't explain Travis Walton coming back five days later with a full beard. It doesn't explain bruises, right? It doesn't explain Terry Lovelace's cell phone health data that shows he climbed six stories in less than a minute. in a house that has one story. There's no stairs in his house. So I thank you for your opinion,

but sleep paralysis is BS. It does not apply to the vast majority of abduction phenomenon. So John, he was the guy in the red flannel. So now that we talked about the science and Occam's razor slicing through sleep paralysis, I did have a hypnotic regression session. So from science of... How much of what you just recalled

was from that hypnotic regression person? Okay, so you remember all. That's all in waking, living memory. All of that is conscious memory. Okay, cool, right? Yeah. And so I want to invoke real scientists, John Mack, Don Don Donderry,

um, David Spiegel, senior and junior who came up with the Spiegel Eyeroll test to determine how hypnotizable folks are. That's a rough measure, and then you go into more detailed measures. And you're humorment. I mean, you can talk to a lot of folks about the science behind hypnosis. Well, you gave me a really interesting fact last night. You said there are two guys on death row right now in Texas, in the state of Texas.

and they were convicted due to hypnotic regression, retrieving details under hypnosis, and that is considered super valid by the state. It's across many counties. The vast majority of our legal system is at the county level, and we're compiling a study right now to determine what percentage of counties across the entire U.S. allow hypnotic regression evidence to be admissible in court.

And so I don't want to mislead you into thinking that that was the only bit of evidence that convicted those folks and put them on death row, but it was some of the evidence that's in there. And so the way Andrew Hulman describes hypnosis is it's a period of relaxed focus, which those sound counterintuitive, right? But it is definitely and verifiable by EEG in a variety of neuro-crisp, objective, empirical, neurophysiological measures. You know when you're in that role.

And so what it does is it allows the hippocampus to stitch back together. I was giving the analogy yesterday about the RAM, you know, random access memory being stored out on the hard drive. And so that's what the hippocampus does, those two little horns in the down near the brainstem basal ganglia area of your brain up underneath. And then the cortex up here. So I used to use my fist as my model for my cadets. And I would have them stroke the back of the parietal area and the motor control and do punches and all the rest of this. but the hippocampal regions deep inside, right? And so that's where a lot of your memory starts to consolidate

and it migrates from that random access area out to the cortical structures. And so what you can do with hypnosis is when you save that word document or you save that Excel spreadsheet in a, and just this is the best model I've gotten. There's probably some holes in it, but it's the best we got. You're resting.

So when you, you save that word document, it doesn't get saved in contiguous sectors on that hard drive. They're spread all over the place because you just got to spread it to where it's open, right? If you delete it, blah, blah, blah. So they're spread all over the place. And so if the hippocampus gets damaged or interfered with, and it is a very vulnerable suborgan of the brain to pharmacological chemical interdiction, right? And so if that hippocampus region gets tampered with, you can start to disrupt its recall.

So it's got to go out to this file allocation table, the FAT, an XFAT, a file allocation table when you're formatting your hard drive, that's what that means. So when it's going to this file allocation table, kind of like the table of contents, says, I want to go to Chapter 3, Section 1, there's nothing there. Oh, crap. Well, let me see. I'll go to chapter 2, section 5. Oh, we got that. So put little bits and pieces back together. And so what hypnosis is really good for is if you have a memory already and it's problematic and you're not sure that some of the details are fuzzy, it can sharpen those details.

the rape victim can through hypnosis and relaxing you and suppressing all of the anxiety and the fear and the anger and all of those deep emotional interference that'll obfuscate the collection of this and interfere with stitching those memories back together. And if all you want to do is focus on that license plate, boom. And you can't. And so that license plate number isn't going to convict that person all by itself. But it can end up being the critical piece of information that places that person at that crime scene doing that sort of activity. And so that's that context. So all of that to come back to the red plaid shirt, it was a uniform. It was a red uniform being worn by a bug.

And also mantis? Another mantis. Or the same one? I'm not sure. I now believe. Well, probably a different one. No, I now believe that that was the same one. And that this dream, the separate dream, did not happen a few days later.

it was all in that same. But in the second encounter with the mantis, it presumably removed its uniform, or was it also in a red uniform? No, I think he had that uniform on, but it was only, it was, and this is where it sounds weird, I know, but I'm, you know,

with all the risk that all these other guys have taken, you know, I feel a need to, climb out on the limb myself and share this info. I mean, it's an important aspect of it. So the uniform was primarily on the backside, kind of covering the grasshopper wings, you know, the front, it needed its hands to do whatever is going to do to my body in it, and its jaws or whatever.

And so there was like a collar to it and there was red on the back. And that's, that's, you know, we talk a lot about screen memories, right, and how these can be imposed. And this is, this is the downside to hypnosis, is if somebody is very hypnotizable. Yes, you can, you can cause them to confabulate and, and make connections between things that might not necessarily be there. But the fact that matters that all hypnosis, Leo Sprinkle told me this on my first regression session. He wasn't the one that did this with this mantis thing. All hypnosis is self-hypnosis.

You cannot hypnotize somebody that doesn't want to be hypnotized. And that's well established in all the scientific literature. What you can do is get somebody to relax enough, to focus enough in recall. And so I now believe, that that event was all the same event. And so this tall being standing over me might have happened right there at that fuel truck. And I don't have any further details about the fuel truck or about the lights or anything

else. But that red shirt was this collared uniform on this thing. Wow. It's so fascinating. There's so many questions, I think. I hope the audience mulls this over and thinks about it. And I will as well because it's such an interesting. Was that the only alien abduction experience you've had?

The other one was much later, 20 years later, is 2013. And it was when I woke up with the three bruises on the underside of my bicep and the one bruise on my tricep. And what I didn't tell Ross about that, as I intimated, I sort of indicated that there were some other sort of mysterious circumstances with that effort. And so I'll share that with you that details. And this was no hypnosis involved. This is conscious memory that I have right now. I've never gone back on a regression to remember any of that. But I do remember standing out on my deck of my house.

So I had this really cool house looking down onto Fort Collins. Anyway, my next door neighbor was a, his name was Andy, great guy, two sons, fabulous family. And I had about a half-acre lot between my house and his house. And he wanted to buy it from me because he didn't want some. He didn't want me to chop it up and sell it to somebody else, put a house between us, and ruin his view of the gorgeous Rocky Mountains. I didn't totally get that. I didn't want somebody to do that either. So he was going to turn it into a mountain bike course for his sons or whatever.

And I remember standing on my deck and looking up, and there was a, it looked like a miniature hurricane. There's a very dark cloud with a swirl around it and a dark hole in the middle, kind of like the eye of the storm. And I remember him yelling over to me, are you, because we're looking up and he looks over me and he goes, are you seeing what I'm seeing? I go, yeah, that, right? So I'd point up, he goes, yeah, and it looks like, it looks like the eye of it is right over the spot between our two houses.

And then so I looked off in the distance towards Loveland, which is another city south of Fort Collins. And it's blue sky down there. So that was only maybe, I don't know, I should go back and look at a map, maybe five or ten miles, something like that. And then I look back to the north and there's blue sky over there, about the same distance around. So it looked like maybe, I don't know, a diameter of a 20-mile-ish storm. them, straight over our houses. And again, here we go again, right? Irrational ambivalence.

Huh. We both go back inside, right? Instead of me going over to chat with him like we did all the time, about mountain biking, about, he was a former army guy who was in the, the honor company there that used to do all the funerals for at Arlington National Cemetery. Great dude. And so it would have made all the sense in the world for us to just sit there,

maybe add another beer and talk about it, right? At least until it started raining, nothing. We both went back inside instead of doing the neighborly chat type of thing they'd have done hundreds of times. And I remember later on, fairly soon thereafter, going into this sort of OCD behavior that is very common in the literature. So if you read any of Kathy Martin's books, Yvonne Smith,

all of John Mack's stuff, right, a lot of these folks that have spent their lives researching the abduction phenomenon, find this very, very common, that I had to close all the drinks and not just having closed. I had to, sometimes I would, tape it. I would tape the drapes. How whack is that, right? I couldn't afford to have the slightest

little sliver of a gap because I didn't want those big black, you know, almond communion eyes from Whitley Streber's book stowed at me through that window. And I would check him and recheck him. And I would block all the doors, et cetera. I didn't find out until much later when my dad passed away that he would go check all those guns. He would make sure his big old 44 Magnum was loaded, right? All this type of stuff. It's an inherent thing. And then so I remember I resolved myself.

I knew they were coming. It's this feeling you get chilled down your spot. And I'm like, you know what? I know I'm helpless. And this is part of the terror, right? I'm helpless. I know there's nothing I got to do. So screw it.

I'm just going to go to bed. You guys, just get it over with. And let's, and let me get back to my life, right? Next morning, I wake up. I'm in my skitties. I go straight downstairs. I had shut down my,

my rescue robotics team, my second nonprofit, laid everybody off because of my, my female, that's another long crazy story. But I went and got this video camera that I hadn't used in five years. and fish it out, put a battery in it, and I come upstairs,

and I immediately start videotaping my arm, the inside of my arm, because of those three bruises. Why would I even know they were there? That's a weird thing. And why is it only on one arm, not the other arm? And why did I immediately go taping? Right? And it's almost as if I knew that I had had this post-hypnotic suggestion,

and I wanted to take the picture before, before I forgot. Right? It's like I'm trying to outsmart them, get ahead of them, right? It's the weirdest thing. What did they, what was the core experience? Like, what did they do in this case? I don't remember.

Oh, so you don't remember that. I don't remember any of the core experience. Okay. I do have some other very terrifying experience. as a kid, you know, waking up with the little gray guys in my room, just like Gary Nolan said. Now, he has assured me he has no abduction memories at all. And I do not want to speak for him.

I just want to thank him for being, for having. But he does say that he remembers gray's in his room. And I think he was riding his bike. It was like a paper route situation or something. He saw a saucer fly overhead. And so you, you. had experiences like that as a kid as well. Yes. Do you think that, because you grew up right next to a nuclear reactor in Idaho.

Well, I was born next to a nuclear reactor, but I grew up in Peabody, Peabody, that's the way you say it. Yeah. Only Matt Damon and Ben Affleck can pull off a good boss an accent like that. Or maybe Bill Burr, right? Peabody, right? And then it's right next to Salem. So that's where I grew up. And I did, my dad and my mom were both. professors. My mom taught sociology at Northeastern. My dad was an aerospace physicist and a nuke. And he was teaching MIT. What was he doing? Oh, he was an aerospace physicist. That's so interesting. He worked at Draper Labs. And then he was, I think, I didn't know anything about academia at the time. But I think he was an adjunct professor. He had three master's degrees.

And so that was enough credentials to teach at MIT. I don't think, I don't think anybody can teach at MIT now without a PhD. Did he have any interest in UFOs? Oh, yeah. What years were he teaching at, was he teaching at MIT? Pretty much my whole childhood. So, so 60s, 70s until I went off to West Point of 77. So do you attribute any of these experiences to the fact that your father was an aerospace physicist with an interest in UFOs? You were born next to which nuclear power plant? It wasn't a power plant. It was the first, uh, nuclear test reactor that the army had spun up and was all classified at the time

and that was in the early 60s, late 50s. In Idaho. Idaho Falls, Idaho. Yeah. So, okay, so you have the father who's interested in UFOs with serious bona fides. You have, you know, born next to a nuclear reactor. And then you also have some Native American heritage.

Do you think any of those things played a part in your experiences? And to bolster the skeptics out there, Betty and Barney Hill. And so I read about that at the same time. And so, yes, I used all of that to totally dismiss all of my childhood experiences. From a scientific skeptical standpoint, I dismissed all of my childhood stuff. Even though your father took this stuff seriously? Yeah. Really?

I just blew it off. Really? Until 2018. And why 2018 did you start to take it through? Because of Leslie Kane and the New York Times article saying that we had official programs? 2018 for me was a very, very, there was sort of a threshold year. Because Leslie's article with Lou came out in December of 2017. And this was, I started teaching my next semester of 2018.

And I was expecting the entire Air Force Academy to all of a sudden radically change its curriculum and start talking about the billions and billions and trillions of galaxies and start warming up the, the cadet populace to this notion. I mean, if anybody is going to wake up to the notion of potential visitation by extraterrestrials, it should be the United States Air Force Academy, right? To my, I shouldn't say horror, but to my surprise and deep disappointment. Why is that a greater source of conviction for, like, an article in the New York Times versus your own experiences, which are. And then would you argue with your dad? Because if your dad was so kind of pro-UFOs, this aerospace physicist, would you say, hey, dad, I don't believe in any of this stuff, even though you had had your own experiences?

Well, I was on the skeptical side until the mountain bike incident. That was 1995. Oh, okay. And after that point, we kind of flipped. Okay. And I was like, I started reading, I read the Corsos day after Roswell. And I really started digging in. That was a little after.

That was 97. That was 97, right? But, you know, I had to focus on grad school, right? You have to maintain a laser focus to get through that. Yeah. So, but that sort of woke me up to start re-looking into this stuff, right? I mean, I used to read UFO books during all my boys. boring time in the military, right?

Everybody else was, you know, reading a boy in Penn House, I'm reading UFO books. So you were interested in it. I was interested in. But I didn't internalize it to me until after 95. Okay. Until after that experience. And it was like those experiences existed in some liminal state,

or were you actively repressing them as if they hadn't happened and then they sort of resurfaced in 95? I don't know. Okay. What I do know is I bought a lot of UFO books. Interesting. So on some level, you bought it. I didn't internalize it. I didn't relate it to myself. And I didn't even consciously discuss that mountain bike incident.

Did your dad have any experiences? Because it's funny, you know, I just interviewed Jacob Barber and he said, you know, probably as a result of his work with crash retrievals and UFOs, he has this sort of winged. sphere thing, show up at his house? We have stuff show up over our house. We have a UAP, we call the angel that shows up and it looks like it has ore wings. It's

blue and it comes in materializes, hangs out over the house. It's seen by neighbors. It's seen by everybody. And then it's gone. It shoots into outer space. I talked to Jake's son about this when we were at his house and there's a lot of commonality. But I don't want to speak for him at all.

But I do recall having a lot of similarities with my childhood with his, which is really interesting. But back to my dad, all I know is he had a lot of UFO books. And I got the impression that he didn't want to discuss it with me until I was old enough. And then by that time, I had my own career, blah, blah, and so. Did he ever discuss it with you? Oh, yeah. What did he say? Yeah. He would always maintain this, strict, rigid rubric of scientific parsimony, right? And so he would, he would in an open, open-minded way,

intent, entertain possibilities, but then he would have these discussions about, I would talk about probabilities, right? What's this and so forth? And so I think it was his way of dealing with the fear by trying to rationalize everything and just always conclude, not sure, don't know, right? But leave it as a possibility. I'll, you know, worship the Carl Sagan, you know, perspective of the world that what's the, what's the cliche now is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof?

Yeah. So 2018, I got the extraordinary proof. I don't think a New York Times article is extraordinary proof. It's not. I haven't gotten to that yet. I think your experiences are. I haven't gotten to you. Okay.

The New York Times article is 2017. Right. In 2018, I attended a conference where a guy got up to the podium and he announced himself as, um, a former Air Force sergeant at Whitman Air Force Base who was a PRP qualified medic. PRP is the personnel reliability program. It's the HR effort program to make sure you don't have crazy people controlling nukes, right? And here's this guy, and he starts telling the story about this camping trip that he and his

other buddy, another sergeant or Airman First Class or whatever, took his camping trip and how he was injured as a result of this experience where the bottom of his feet were burnt, sunburned. And so I don't want to tell Terry's story. is Terry Lovelace. Terry Lovelace, yeah. And he and I have become very good friends since then. But what really got my attention was when he told the story about being on a table,

and Dr. Bug comes over and start, and he's screaming as loud as he can. And Dr. Bug looks over at him and says, stop screaming. You know we're not going to hurt you. we've told you we're not going to hurt you. Quit screwing around and stop your screaming. Just let us get this done. And he reaches over with a digit, whatever it was. I don't know if it was a claw or what.

Tap him on the head. And Terry says he was out like a light. And all of a sudden, I had already moved up from the back row, right? Somebody had left. And I took their seat and I was on the front left. I'm looking right at him. I'm maybe from here to the wall away. And I'm starting to get the goosebumps, right?

And the shivers running up and down my spine. And then when he tells this, the Dr. Bug part of the story, I'm freaking out. I'm, you know, I'm really tense. I'm sweating, you know, and I get the hero standing up on my arms. And so that's when all the, the mountain bike stuff came flooding back. And it was shortly after that,

I would say within a few months after that, when I went through the regression, and realized that the bug dream and the mountain bike dream were not two separate events. And the red plaid shirt was a uniform. Do you think there's some sort of MIT connection with this topic? There's a MIT president named Carl Kahn.

And there's a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who's this sort of famous, you know, microwave frequency physicist who clearly had something to do with the UFO question. He's on record talking to UFO researcher William Steinman, but also speaking to Wilbert Smith, this, you know, Canadian physicist who had a UFO research program called Project Magnet. And Robert Sarbocker's name just keeps popping up. It pops up with Thomas Townsend Brown and anti-gravity experiments in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. 60s. And Sarbacher says that there was a craft being held at Wright Patterson. And that craft was taken over by the Anderson Trust. And so there's guys like John Anderson, John Lovett, kind of early CIA guys. And then Carl Compton comes to the scene, president of MIT, and all of a sudden he's, you know, in charge or has to do with this somehow. And so I do wonder if MIT has some sort of connection with this whole thing. And if this sort of runs in families, as it's rumored, Whitley Streber. obviously wrote communions, you know, maybe the archetypal alien abduction case, if not, you know, Betty and Barney Hill. But he, you know, talks about his uncle working with very closely with

General Axon at right airfield. And his father was a reservist, you know, an Air Force guy. And, you know, so I don't know. Do you think there's something there with you? or? I don't know is my succinct answer. But since we're in speculation space here, I have nothing in my experience that is inconsistent with that. There is no flags in any of all the literature that I've read about all that, that is inconsistent.

So it's sort of like with Jake and his team, I don't see any inconsistencies there. There's, there's, as I was mentioned to you yesterday, there's a lot of smoke, but no flame that I personally observed at DARPA or the AFRO experience when I was assigned at Wright-Batterson for three years. Yeah, you worked here. We've got to talk about that. Yeah.

Yeah. Because your career is so fascinating because I know you've never seen a UFO firsthand or been read into anything, but you were stationed at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and you were vice president at SAIC, which always comes up with the UFO stuff. We're only six months. We're only six months. Yeah, fair enough. But it is, I find that interesting. It's almost like you were hovering in and around the topic. You're always around the perimeter of this stuff. But like. you never get let in. Yeah. I was a bridesmaid, never a bride, right? That was kind of the way it has evolved. Would you hear rumors at right, Pat?

Oh, God. Because, like, yeah, any anecdotes that might give you some conviction that something is going on there? Outside of the stuff in the lore, like, you know, you have Barry Goldwater, you know, saying that he asked Curtis LeMay for, you know, what was being held? in the blue room at Wright Patterson. I call Curtis LeMay, and I said, general, I know we have a room at Wright Patterson, where you put all his secret stuff. Could I go in there?

I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder and held me. Cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question again. Do you have any stories like that? Yeah, I'm very well, well, Excuse me. I'm very well aware of that story. Mm-hmm. And a lot of the rumors around,

um, Wright Patterson, Leonard Stringfield, uh, a very prominent, very well-respected UFO researcher, uh, from that,

or up to that, uh, region. Um, I do have, uh, yeah, some anomalous,

uh, factors and some anomalous, sort of behavior, but the closest to what you're just talking about with LeMay and Goldwater was a situation where I had, you know, I've had a lot of orthopedic procedures. I'm a busted up, Humpty, you know, and it doesn't speak well to my athletic prowess that I've had so many problems, right? You look good to me, man.

For your age, I'm super impressed with you're a good shape, man. So I really needed to, I didn't want to go to a doctor on base. I was dating. As a matter of fact, she became my fiancé, lived about 50 miles away, just over 50 miles away. And the radius of Tricare military insurance coverage was such that if you live, if you live, If you lived outside of a 35-mile radius, I think it was 35, it might have been a little further, maybe 50. You had to go to the military hospital on that base. Otherwise, Tricare wouldn't pay for your care.

And so I switched my address to her address. So I filed a doctor just outside that radius. And everything was great. I report into him. I didn't report is, you know, the new patient processing, got to go in and they list all your stuff. And I listed like my 20 surgeries. And they're like, oh, well, that's interesting.

And I was like, I told him the same thing. Yeah, that's just a reflection of my lack of athletic ability. And that's how I ended up with all this stuff busted. So then the doctor comes in. He's looking through everything. He says, oh. And he realized right away what I was doing. He goes, so you're just outside.

the radius, right? I was like, yeah. He goes, yeah, I get a lot of you guys. I get a lot of guys from right back who come to see me because I don't want to go to the base or the hospital on base. And he goes, let me ask you something.

Had they let you see the alien bodies yet? And I kind of wasn't ready for that. But I smiled, kind of like I think I'm smiling now. And I was like, no, I don't, I haven't gotten right in on that or whatever. And then he just, he was looking at me very seriously. And then he goes, oh, I'm just kidding. Right.

And then he gets a talk. And then he goes, you know, I asked that of everybody to kind of lighten up the mood, right? He goes, but do you mind if I tell you a story? I was like, yeah, sure, I mean, you're the dark, right? You don't have a scalpel held to my neck, so, yeah, give it a go. He goes, well, there was a two-star gemo that came in here about six months ago, and I did that same thing. And he got furious with me. He stood up, and he came over to me and got like this far in my grill, in my face.

And he said, don't you ever ask me anything like that ever again? I came here to get treated, not traumatized by somebody. like you. Now, are you going to treat me for this stuff or not? And he just, he just ripped into him. And it immediately reminded me when he would tell me that story of this story between LeMay and Goldwater. And I was like, wow. Like he wouldn't have reacted so strongly if there wasn't something that. Right. Right. Yeah. And so did you hear anything around the base or, you know, anybody talking around? Okay. Yeah. But what was somewhat anomalous, is that shortly after I got there,

I found out that I had been sort of demoted. It was kind of crazy. So when I was at DARPA, I was a lieutenant colonel, retired as a lieutenant colonel, ended up coming back as a GS-15 to go to Afghanistan, to use little robots to go try to find bin Laden in the caves and Toro Bora. Were you literally doing that?

Yeah. That's amazing. That's a really interesting story. Well, I got to tell you, this is the first time I've ever talked about that in public. Wow. And the reason is that a tremendously heroic god of aviation told that story, made a reference to that story about three months ago, Who's that? On the Sean Ryan show's name is Alan Mack, a legend in the Knight Stalker Task Force 160

community. And in the middle of his interview, Tim Galadette asked me if I had met Alan if I knew him, and I said no. And he said, I don't know if he sent me the linker just told me that he had just done an interview with Sean. And so watched the interview with rapt attention, and it was magnificent. I mean, I just can't speak well enough of the guy. And he had, he, he had a rough time with, with his wife and his divorce similar, similar to mine.

He had a lot tougher than mine. But in any case, I'm kind of listening. I think I went up to go to kitchen and make a sandwich or something. And then I hear him talk about how right after he had inserted, he and his guys had inserted all the detachments from fifth group that is now a legendary, the horse soldiers. There's a book written about it, movie written about it with what's his name for? Not Liam, the other guy. Chris Hemsworth. Yeah.

Yeah, and so he was this ODA commander, a Special Forces A-Team commander. And they made the movie, the movie made it look like it was one detachment. Well, you got to multiply that by like 36, because there were a bunch of Chris Hemsworth all over the Torbor region. And so Al was in his several helicopters. I don't know how many command them made for five, six. I'm not sure. I'm not going to. They were the guys that put those guys in.

And so after they got done with that mission, they were told that they were going to rotate back to Fort Campbell, Kentucky. So they've been in country for several months, right? And so they're looking forward to going home. And then he got this cockamamie mission to lower a robot down into a cave. That was one of your robots. Yeah. I was the only got a robots in the country at the time.

It had to be me. They were lowering the robots into a cave. And did you have a hand in the mission itself? I was the mission. You were the mission. I had a by name request from my former boss, Jemmo Brown, a magnificent warrior and soldier. So that's why DARPA called me back out of retirement to go do this mission. Were you in Torobora for the mission or you were remotely controlling it?

I was in Afghanistan. We were doing workups. We were doing rehearsals for it. at Balgram Airfield with a couple of green berets from fifth group that will remain unnamed. And they, it was our little cell. And they were going to use the robot to research, re-service those tunnels and those caves, rather than taking a 12-man detachment and land them and have to look in each cave. and there was significant distances between,

and you got serious terrain that you've got to go through. So rather than doing that, the idea was, we lower the robot, looks in the cave real quick, either determines somebody's there or somebody's not. And here's the problem that a lot of those tunnels, it was just a shallow cave. It was like maybe half as deep as this room.

And so it looked like it was a tunnel. You didn't know until you got on the ground and looked in. And so shadows can play tree. and everything. And then the concern was a bunch of booby traps, right? And so the value of my little robots, that's what I was brought into DARPA to look at is to use little robots to sneak into places

that might have WMD. Right? And so it made all the sense in the world, especially in the middle of winter with a bunch of snow, right? And the weight distribution of a little miniature tank with these fat treads. What year was this? This was 2001.

Well, I got the mission in 2001. We didn't actually get over there until very early 2002, January of February. And did, because for a while we had pretty good confidence that Bin Laden was in Toribora, right? And then he sort of got away. Like, what happened there? Because he ended up, we found him in Wazir, or Pakistan or whatever. So we're already in the rabbit hole. Now we're going into a deeper rabbit hole within the rabbit hole.

Have you ever heard of the book, Kill Burbank? bin Laden by a guy named Dalton Fury. I have not. Yeah, so if you look at that, we can talk about that afterwards, but that was written by one of my colleagues, a fellow true commander, not a squadron commander. We were kind of like lower middle management, right? And he had that mission, and he asked on three separate occasions. He went on 60 minutes in disguise to tell Scott Pelley that he had direct Overwatch on bin Laden on three separate occasions, very close,

easily within small arms range. And he asked for clearance to take out the target and it was denied three times. That's really weird. That's crazy. that's so fucked that's it's like you had you just had an incentive to nation build

in Afghanistan then going to Iraq and waste all this time and money but get Halbert in a contract or something it's so ridiculous that's the fact

I gotta read this book I want to talk to this guy and I'm sure it's on YouTube I mean I've watched it on YouTube several times he has since passed away throat uh...

answer. Yep, and just a great guy. Oh, man. A very, you know, again, one of these heroes that, that I had the pleasure of serving in the same unit, not at the same time. I never met him, never shook hands. He came in probably a couple, a few years after I left. They just let him go three times, Bin Laden. That's what, that's what, that's what, um, Riffitt said. That's what, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what, I mean, there were rumors that we were closing in on bin Laden at Toribora, and then all of a sudden he gets away, and then you hear stuff, like, that the ISI kind of knew, you know, the Pakistani intelligence knew that bin Laden was in Waziristan the whole time. And, I mean, you just look at like the way in which bin Laden was found, and you're like, how isn't this guy found prior? With the amount of resources, six trillion dollars that we spent in Middle East activities post, you know, to September,

11th, 2001. How do we not find this one guy? It's just crazy. And you have like, you know, the total information awareness stuff. And you have, you can network. There are ways to find people. And you can't find this one guy.

Like, and then when you do find him, he's like watching DVDs and this weird outhouse and he's got, like, it's like, give me a break. Like, it's crazy. But, but the impact on me at that time. in February was we were spinning up, we were rehearsing my mission, our mission, to send these two guys with this robot

and attack another heroic guy. I will tell you his name. His name is Nathan Desmule Legend in the robotics EOD community. And he was, that guy was amazing. He was able to splice fiber optic back together on some of these robots and so forth. Anyway,

they, I heard this woman that we had, we, the unit, had been allowed in their size three times and it was denied down the chain of a very short channing command. So it's very unique.

Interesting. Straight from the president. Yeah. Down to this unit through a two-star gemmo. What was the rationale? Do you have any sense? They never got it. That was the problem.

There was never any reason given. There's a lot of hypothesis later that I've heard from... It's not like we wanted him alive. We killed them in Pakistan. The one reasonable speculation that I heard 10 years later, skiing with a good buddy of mine, another aviator, very senior aviator. As a matter of fact, he was the senior aviator in the Army.

I tell you his name, but I haven't asked him yet. Sure. And he said, I think, that we wanted to dangle bin Laden out to get the other fish. Kind of like, you know, you have an insort, kind of like the narco world, right? Yeah, yeah. So you got somebody, but you want to see how many little fish gather around so we can get them all of. There's some logic to that. Yeah.

But in any case, the impact on me was near tragic. But the way, if you, I just, I just want to play devil's advocate there. Then you take the guy hostage and you get the other fish. I mean, you have more leverage if the guy is in your custody than if you, he's just out free. I mean, he's, come on. And on a ski lift, I think that's exactly how I addressed that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the, at that time, during the.

the spin-up, I was furious because we didn't have any microphones on any of our robots. And I had mandated early on in my DARPA program, we got to have microphones. We got to have the same sensing capacity as a human, right? Because we don't want to do worse than a human, right? Why don't you want to put a robot? And if there's, you know, there's obviously value that a robot can fit in a hole that a human can't. but we at least got to be able to hear, right? Because I want to use him as assets, right?

If bin Laden's down in that tunnel, I want to be able to hear what the heck he's saying, right? And that's part of the, that's why I need SF guys, special forces guys, because we're language training, we can understand what the hell he's saying. So we didn't have microphones. I was furious.

So I catch a space A, a space available flight, first to Turkey, to interlick, and then to Germany. And while I'm in Germany with Nate, We hear about Operation Anaconda and how everything has gone to hell in a handbasket. And helicopters are shot down, all this stuff. And it just took all the wind out of my sails because then when I came back, and there was all these rumors about, well, and, you know, we had been Laden three times.

And I'm like, what hell am I doing here? Yeah. If we find him with the, robot. They're just going to say no? Right. So what is, so you can imagine the effect on, on the motivation. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it's demoralizing. So I was totally demoralized. Kabuki theater. You're just chasing around a guy just to let him go every time. Exactly. And so when I got back, I outbrief the DARPA director. And, and he said, okay, well, we'll get microphones on him and so forth. And I said, no, sir, that's not good enough. I need to pick, handpick my team of the guys

that are going to run these robots around. And he refused so I resent. That's the end of that story. Crazy story. Well, John, you were, you were Green Beret. Am I wrong? That's correct. Okay. So a recent Green Beret just came on my show. His name is Randy Anderson. I believe you know him now. Yeah. And Randy has a pretty amazing story. He says that he says that he, He was stationed as an 18 Bravo weapons sergeant at Naval Surface Warfare Crane in Indiana, that he was taken in an elevator underground, taken past a bunch of security checkpoints into a skiff, secret compartmentalized information facility, and the placard on the wall of the skiff was off-world technologies. And he was shown two things.

an orb levitating above a podium and a gauntlet, almost like a glove-like thing, emitting hieroglyphics. And I have his DD-214. I have a couple of his colleagues' DD-214s. I know for a fact that he still occasionally does contract work for Area 51. I think people don't realize how big of a test site that is and that they're not going to like fire this guy for,

He didn't break any NDAs as a result of this. He just, you know, it was, it was just the NDA, you know, the Naval Service Warfare Crane NDA. There's nothing to do with Area 51. They wouldn't retaliate. If they did retaliate, it would be self-identification for Area 51. So you have all these people kind of coming at the story saying it's bullshit. I lended a lot of credence, given what I've gotten to know about him over the last, you know, a couple of months. I've known him for maybe four or five months now.

but I've done, you know, extra research on it. What do you think about his story? So before he came on your show, long before he came on your show, I had quite a bit of interaction with him, Dave Grush, through maybe one other person, maybe is Michael O'Rer, put me in touch with him. And again, with the same notion that Ross and Dave wanted me to do with Jake. Suss them out. Just, just, no, just be a compassionate, open ear.

And, and yeah, you know, again, tell them my story. And part of the value of this is when these guys come out, at least they're not as crazy as the colonel who thinks he was freaking abducted by a praying mantis. Sure. And so it kind of encourages them in their realm. But what was your assessment of the core story? I mean, do you think that?

I believe every aspect of his story. I don't have the same level of confidence because I didn't meet him with four other guys that I could see and watch the behavior. Sure. But I find zero inconsistency with what he said. Now, there's a couple of details very important. details that you left out in your summary. Yeah. One was the long elevator ride.

Yep. Right. And the notion that topside, the facility, he didn't really describe it as being decrepit, but it wasn't that I think the way he described it is it wasn't really state of the art. Mm-hmm. Right. But when he got to the bottom of that long elevator ride, it was. very sophisticated, right?

And so that is entirely consistent with an advanced weapons development structure, right? First of all, underground is absolutely the most secure facility you can imagine, right? And why worry about fence lines and canines and security forces, folks, if you're, what, 100 feet below grade? And there are rumors of deep underground military bases.

from Edwards to Nellis to Peterson and Colorado and Cheyenne Mountain Complex, norat, like this stuff is, there's enough smoke there where, you know, you don't have to say anything without me saying, I think there's some fire, but. I've been in several of them. Yeah.

I've never been rid on any, read in on anything in my entire career. Mm-hmm. But the smoke is very, very prominent and hot. Yeah. Never saw any flames. Yeah. But the other, the gauntlet, the space ghost glove.

Yes. That he described in the sphere, totally consistent with Bob Lazarus story from 1988. Why is the glove, I didn't know, is the glove part of Bob Lazar's story? No. The sphere was. Uh-huh. But. But I thought Bob Lazare worked on like a sports model, like alien reproduction vehicle,

sort of UFO thing. I didn't know that he saw like a sphere orb or something. Oh yeah. He describes a basketball size, maybe a smaller, maybe soccer ball sized ish item. And as he approached it and tried to, it was it was it was sort of like he had magnetic gloves on, a vault opposite polarity. And so he couldn't get there. That story's come up a ton. Seeing a sphere being tested for your sionic abilities, your mind matter capabilities or something via this sphere thing. Well, I don't want to... I just interviewed a psionic asset, yeah, who has that story. And so that just keeps coming up, this sort of sphere thing that often, I guess in Randy's

case, he says it came off the craft. It wasn't the craft itself. It came off the craft. And then I just had Michael Schrad on, who's this deep UFO researcher who goes through all of Leonard Stringfield's stuff. Oh, yeah. And he describes this egg, and the egg is cracked, and it's taken to Berkeley labs to be studied,

and there on the inside is a sphere inside of the egg. So I have no idea, and we're getting super speculative territory. But, okay, so Lazare, what else would corroborate? Because Lazar, I think reasonably to somebody in the audience is like, you know, who knows? So is there anybody else that, yeah, go for it. Well, other elements of smoke, this is more wispy than the thick carcinogenic heavy black smoke. But crane's not far from Wright Patterson.

Now, it's a few hour drive, three hours. And it's a Navy facility. That's right. Now, what I can tell you about Randy's specialty as an 18 Bravo, a weapon sergeant, these guys really are quite special. One of the final exams during the Special Forces Q course is called the Pile Test. Did Randy tell you about any of that? I don't think you mentioned that I saw your interview with them.

Yeah. So. Talked about stress fractures everywhere just down to, but no, what's the Pile Test? The Pile Test is so a weapon sergeant in their six months of training, they're trained on all sorts of foreign weapons. and you have to learn how to assemble them, disassemble them, repair them. Because you're behind enemy lines,

you've got a we call it battlefield recovery. You use whatever you pull off the battlefield and you repair them and give them back to the guerrillas that survived or the foreign internal defense. You're kind of trying to do counter-girlel. But one way or another, these weapons, you need to be an expert, like almost an armor level, A lot of these guys end up after they retire.

They go run guns offs and they become robbers. So the pile test is out of all the weapons, and I don't know how many they learn over the course of their train, and it's probably double digits, like 11, 12, 15 different weapons. And so these weapons are randomly selected, and they come in and there's a table. And all the weapons are there.

and then the instructor clicks the stopwatch and they got to disassemble all their weapons. And then, okay, everybody's timed and everybody that doesn't make it a certain amount of time, you're a no-go, and then you've got to do a retest,

so you're out, and then you've got to come back and do it again. And then, same thing. Okay, now disassemble it. Put it all together, all right? Anybody that doesn't disassemble it, it's a lot easier than assembling, usually. And every now and then,

there'll be, because there's little springs, tiny little springs, and you'll hear like a ping, and the spring goes flat across the room. And the guy's like, oh, shit. And so you've got to go scramble get the strings. So lots of hilarious stories about that. But the pile test is after those two pre-tests, then they got to stand up and come away from the table. And then after the disassembly, the instructor comes,

over and mixes all the parts. So now you have a pile of random parts and then you sit back down at your chair in front of this table with all these parts and then the instructor clicks the watch and you have to reassemble all these

weapons and then they turn the lights up. And there's a timed test. That's how good these guys got to be. That in total darkness, they reassemble all these weapons. So with that level of perspective on ballistics and armor sort of skills, it would make sense that you would want somebody like that

to go examine these potential weapons instead of a nuclear physicist, right? If you're trying to figure out what possible way we might reverse engineer this sort of thing. So that's why I say there's no inconsistency with Randy's story. It's totally consistent and commensurate with his skill set and his skill level. Also about half of the crashed UFO craft stories involve hieroglyphics. So, like, that actually, that isn't super random either. But yeah, it's just, it's so interesting. And I think the thing in his case is he will admit, he's like, I don't know why I was

shown this stuff. But like, you know, and I don't know if this is some bizarre sciop or whatever, but I think the core experience is real. There's no reason. I mean, the other thing you can probably speak to is, you know, and I've spoken to a couple of his Green Beret colleagues now. I've seen their DD-21. One of them actually does still does work with him at Area 51 and was like, yeah, I saw that green orb that Randy talked about. So, you know, and the other, I think, has a, you know, successful company and a lot of Green Berets sort of follow this. So, yeah, I believe him.

I believe his core story. He doesn't really get anything out of this. You know, we plugged his, like, self-defense local company in Las Vegas at the end of the thing. But it's like there's, he's not doing this for, you know, fame or, you know, anything, any, he doesn't have ulterior motives. So it was really painful to see certain people online go after his, uh, credentials and background. Like, I know where he was deployed. I know a lot more actually about some war feats that, like, I wanted to say, but he didn't because of the, you know, the Green Beret way. And to see people kind of question his service and record when, you know, 20 people in his graduating class of Green Berets aren't alive.

It's like, it's just shameful. It's like, it's so ridiculous. Well, that's another consistency, right? Because we keep our mouths shut, right? Our motto is quiet professionals. Yeah. And so... He wanted to do it anonymously.

He wanted his face blurred out until a day before we shot. He was like, and I was like, dude, I don't think that's going to help. We and I talked about that a little bit and discussed it by text back and forth. And I think that, you know, he, like Danny Sheehan's interpretation of the law of an NDA, and NDI8 does not apply to them. Unless we have declared war on them, this non-disclosure agreement that you discuss that you're not going to talk about,

you know, anything that will betray our ability to fight our adversaries. Of course. Well, we still haven't declared war on China yet either. Right. And so, yeah, but it's also, clearly the underlying principle behind NDA, it's like, yeah, don't let a blueprint as to how to build some, you know, crazy weapon. Don't tip your hat to the adversary. But if it's ontological truth, if it's just a core thing that, like, humanity should know, you can't NDA that. I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.

That's just dumb. Like some, if it's, if it's a principle, you know, in, you know, you know, uh, you know, uh, tricks of the trade that could cause harm if in the wrong hands, of course. Yeah, I'd DA the shit out of that. But, I mean, this stuff is, it's for humanity. It's ridiculous. That's crazy. Yeah.

I mentioned this in my first interview when I finally graduated with Marie McNeely, and I'm indebted to her and Josh Elder for setting that up for me. And at one point, she was asking me a question. And I said, you know, I kind of want to stay away from that. And she said, oh, I totally understand. I wouldn't want you to get in trouble for divulging any secrets. And I gently explained to her, it's not about getting in trouble. I've been in trouble all my life, right?

It's about protecting sources and methods and your brothers and sisters in arms. You don't want to put them at risk, right? Kind of like, you know, the Mission Impossible thing, the knock list gets out, right? So there's this ethical morality balance there. But, you know, speculatively, let's take a step back from into LEO to Leo to low Earth orbit. All right. And let's look at this planet. Do you see any boundaries between cities or between countries?

Do we see any boundaries between the United States of America? So we're so divided right now. Look at what would have happened if we did have a civil war, right? And you've got nuclear weapons in Wyoming and South Dakota and Montana. And one of those two states are on opposite sides of this civil war. Are we going to nuke our own? country. To be disastrous.

Right? And so let's take a step back and extend beyond the boundaries of the divided states of America, right? And let's look at the divided nations of Earth. Right? Same thing. Are we humans really going to fricking nuke each other over silly spats about economics when there's a potential for way bigger problems, right? Out there.

So Reagan's famous speech, right, with Gorbachev. Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall. What if we were? How ridiculous all our petty little disagreements. It's funny. Reagan, apparently, I've heard rumors that Star Wars initiatives actually dealt with, you know, the UFO question. Some of these, you know, weapons ramp up.

in the early 80s. A lot of Reagan's speeches dealt with non-human intelligence and stuff, you know, in the mid-80s. That's not speculation. That is fact. Well, I can go, you can go look at those speeches.

The facts that I know, I know of one speech where he said, it's like, you know, it's like if there was an alien invasion, you know, would totally unite us as a human race. And then there's a second story, Gorbachev told Charlie Rose. and he says, you know, I don't remember

some UN event or something and he's sitting next to Reagan and Reagan whispers over before the event starts and he says, you know, in the event of an alien invasion, would you help us? President Reagan suddenly said to me, what would you do

if the United States were attacked by someone from outer space? Would you help us? I said no doubt about it. We also.

He said we too. And so, yeah. This is one of the most powerful aspects of Robert Hastings' book, UFO and Nukes. Yeah. Great book. That, you know, he and Bob Jacobs and Terry and Mario Woods and Jeff Goodrich, who still hasn't had his story told. And that deserves.

So we could talk about that later. Yeah, I'd love to put you guys in touch. That'd be awesome. phenomenal. But the part of the most compelling aspect of that is the collective perspective that most of us share. I don't want to speak for all of them, but what I took away from it was the notion. And Robert has said this in his documentary in many interviews that the collective feeling from it is that we are playing with fire. I have a chapter called nuclear matchsticks. We are essentially kids playing with matches in the backyard.

I believe that. And I believe if this gets into weird kind of ontological truth and metaphysics, but maybe we're poking holes in reality with certain high-energy physics experiments and with, you know, some of the nuclear stuff. And it's almost opening portals to another world. And I think the really interesting phenomena that happens after that is you have all these really tough guys who get spooked by really crazy, you know, entities that they encounter. And after those encounters, they kind of turn on the system. And they're like, we have to, we need to, we need to, we need to, we need to lay our arms down.

You're a great example. Yeah. All members of that club. Yeah. And it's, it's fascinating to see. You know, Randy Anderson's great example where he's that guy. Is it tough? You just see like, you know, that guy could beat the shit out of me.

And but he's going through this like really interesting journey where he's, I think, waking up, becoming more conscious. And that's what prompted him to come out to me with this story. And we had really deep conversations before putting the story out that I wish people could see around his, you know, reforming as a person, almost spiritual awakening. And that's happening to a lot of military guys. So it's almost like you're poking the beehive, the bees come out, and then you're like, actually, you know, you kind of reform. You realize that there's, you know.

To quote Jake Barber, it's not ontological shock. It's ontological relief. Yeah. We understand now. And so, yeah, so, and that's why we do this, right? One other detail I want to talk to you about specifically with the Randy Anderson story is he was introduced to me by an amazing. amazing UFO researcher named UAP Gerb. Recommend everybody check out his channel's really deep, incredible stuff.

And his name's Sammy, UAP Gerb. He's done a deep dive on basically he thinks that SAIC, which is located right next to Naval Service Warfare Crane, was the contractor doing the psionic testing. They're on record doing psychotronic testing in other cases, you know, getting into that area. I think they wrote a paper on, or they commissioned a paper on electrogravityx,

James Woodward and I think 88 or something. You know, they're very deep on alternative science that is UFO adjacent, let's just say. So you were a VP of SAIC for six months. Do you think that SAIC was the contractor for Randy? I have read a lot of smoke, no flames. I was brought.

aboard S-A-I-C to take over a troubled robotics division out in Littleton, Colorado. And I didn't get very far because I was almost immediately pulled back to DARPA. I was really excited about taking over that division. I had some very, I had a lot of optimism that we could make some, some big impact. But that, I mean, it was like three days after I'm at Ground Zero and DARPA's calling me, Art Moore's a great friend of mine, brilliant scientist. And he's like, hey, we want to get you back.

We're getting ready to go to overseas. He just left it at that, right, because it was still early on. But we all knew it was Afghanistan, right? And I was like, dude, I got my hands full here. I'm trying to rescue people for crying out loud, killing people and going after Ben Loud and that's secondary. Let's, let me take care of this stuff first. And then it stayed back burner until I ended up turning all the robots to another great

hero, starting first class, Dave Platt, and ended up finally getting back to my house that I had just bought in Colorado and then got redeployed there. So I only had maybe 30 days total time at SCIC before I had to take a leave of absence from there to go become a GS-15. So not really a lot of opportunity to peek under the skirt and look around for any, you know, interesting stuff. So, so yeah, I was never rented. into anything at SAIC.

I gave one briefing on the potential of small robots to sneak into little nooks and crannies. Kind of a three-fer. You know, that's got value for looking in rubble, right? Because if you're a 250-pound firefighter with a scuba tank, you ain't fitting up underneath that couch, right? and a security system that's designed to detect a two-meter bag of water. Probably not going to detect something the size of my fist, right, sneaking through the barbed wire. And if we're going to be looking for microbial life on Mars, it makes no sense to be wandering around the surface of a planet that is literally bathed in poisonous. this radiation.

Chris McKay, I'll never forget it. He gave a phenomenal lecture. But in the summer of 2001, it was a fundraiser to kind of motivate

all of us that were going to go up to the Houghton Crater as part of the Nassah's HMP Houton, Houton Mars project. And there was the Mars underground, so forth. So there's some video on me on a website

on my LinkedIn page. It's day 17 in the Mars simulation and a new crew member arrives with some unusual American military technology. My name's Lieutenant Colonel John Blitch. Treat it like American football. You're running for the end zone. I'm a program manager for the tactical mobile robotics program

at the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency. It was a wonderful experience with Dr. Pascal Lee Dr. Bob Zubrin, Dr. Darlene Lim, all these people. Brilliant. And we essentially played like we were Mars astronauts. And my role was the robot guy. And I brought a bunch of robots from DARPA up there to pretend that we were on Mars. And the niche was fitting into little nooks and crannies, the shadows.

That's where you're going to find microbes. And Chris McCabe shared with the... us. He held us and wrapped attention for like two and a half hours with two sluts. One was like red Mars and then maybe blue Mars or green Mars. I forget about it. And James Ken was there. I met him. And he was taking a lot of heat because of, I forget the name of the movie. I think it was Red Mars or something Mars. And he took a lot of heat. Finally he said, okay, it's just a movie for crying out of a lot, right? You know, let me have to hook. But Chris was always a big opponent of manned missions because he felt that we were going to contaminate the surface.

So how do you know if a hitchhiker microbe doesn't fall off your skin, end up on your boot, and then suddenly blooms and flourishes in the soil on Mars or whatever? So he was at, I think he was at Ames, Nass Ames, and there was friction between the astronaut folks at Johnson Space Center and the scientists there, the pro-robot guys. We can only afford to send robots. And we got to, of course, you're going to, you know, do them in a clean room and make sure there's no dust on them or whatever.

And then he suddenly realized, I don't know when his epiphany was, but it was before you get this lecture, that, you know what? There is no chance of anything surviving on the surface of Mars because all of the radiation. So now he's like, we should send astronauts, do it now. And that was in 2001, before we launched up there in July of 2001. What do you think of these structures that we're now finding on Mars, like these sort of anomalous, artificial-looking structures? Do you think that Mars at one point had life? Even the conventional sort of astronomical understanding of Mars is that maybe at some point it did have life and that its magnetosphere was stripped.

There is extremely compelling evidence in my personal and professional opinion that they're, so don't take it from me. Richard Hoagland, you know, the face on Mars guy and the Pyramid-Sidonia. But Hoaglin was also a little nutty in other ways, but. he's not the only one but a lot of a lot of hoagland's stuff is becoming vindicated like he you read the first part of dark mission that book and like he's talking about the you know uh quaternian you know like uh Maxwell's equations the the you know expanded version of Maxwell's equations being more faithful than the heavy side simplification and two years ago you could have that's quacky and ridiculous or whatever now you have the national science foundation now

doing podcasts talking about this stuff. And I've spoken to enough serious aerospace people where I'm like, I think that's real. And then if that's real, then like, I don't know, is our whole rocket program just a weird, you know, pagan ritual cult? Like, I'm not sure. I don't know. You know, since we're down that rabbit hole,

John Brennanberg's series books about the isotopic racial, ratio that is exclusive as far as we know to a nuclear detonation. And that huge ballast marineris, and so he speculates that whatever civilization was there was eradicated via nuclear war. And he has the chemical, photonic, evidence that he presents very compellingly, in my opinion, that there's correlations and there's causation, right? And so if you have correlation, how does correlation become causality? What is it? It's an isotope that's only a nuke could create or something?

What is the isotope? Do we know? So you have this correlation between these factors and this result. and then correlation becomes causation when Occam's razor slices through all of the other alternatives, and that's all that. If you can account for all the other variables, then you're left with by the law parsimony. That's the only thing we got. And so that's how it becomes causation. So he could find no other reasonable mechanism for that isotopic ratio to be there

other than a nuclear donation. I'll send you the link to a bunch of his books. He's got three that I know. He does like gravity experiments as well. Is that the same John Brandenburg? Or is that different? I don't recall. gravity experiments, but it might be. Interesting. It could be. Wow. Yeah. I also, I just spoke to

Joseph McMonigle, who is part of, yeah, the, you know, remote viewing program. And he remote viewed Mars a million years ago, has claimed to see all these pyramids. And then he says he's now in touch with all these guys at JPL who are sending him, all these artificial structures on, on Mars. And I saw the photos at his place. And, you know, he's not super deep on the provenance of, you know, and like exactly what the credentials are of the people he's in touch with, but I'm super curious. Are you familiar with Carl Wolf and his testimony?

Oh, yeah, yeah, Lieutenant Carl Wolf. Yeah, this was, he was in a dark room and he saw this photo of a structure. But that was on the moon? He was not a lieutenant. He was a senior airman. Uh-huh. And he was at, he was a photo,

repair technician. That's right. And this was he... He claimed to be in some like, in a, like a special compartment of NASA or something. It was like in a mountain, right? No, it was at Langley. It was at Langley. And he went into a room and he was surprised because there was a lot of foreign language spoken.

And he came to realize that there were... apparently, you know, just based on... He said it was an international space program. There were a bunch of scientists from all over the world there at this meeting, and he was brought in to repair a device for photo processing that was broken. And the other person in the room, I think, was also an Air Force Airman. started whispering to him that they had discovered huge structures

on the dark side of the moon. And so he became uncomfortable because he knew that this guy was telling him something that he wasn't supposed to know. So this is part of this. But he saw a photo. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. The guy showed him. He showed him a photo. And then he made a speech about it, and then he died. He got hit by a car on his bike or something. It was a weird. Yeah.

He was riding his bike and he was hit by a semi-trappeder trailer. And so this comes into some of this, you know, rumor, some hot smoke on some of this of people being eliminated with the use of deadly force that is rationalized by the notion that we really have to keep this secret because it's too scary for... Well, you know, do you think there are structures on the dark side of the moon? China is now going to the dark side of the moon. I have no red flags of inconsistency of inconsistency to say otherwise. Yeah, but I feel like the burden of proof should be on the person saying that there are possibly structures on the dark side of the man.

Absolutely. Well, yeah, the burden of proof is really interesting, right? Like, would you say your base case is that there are structural? on the dark side of the man? No, all I'm saying is I have no reason to disbelieve Carl Wolke. He didn't. He didn't write a book and get rich and famous that I know of. And the fact of the matter is UFO books don't sell the vast majority of them, especially

abduction books. That's way too crazy. So I don't have any reason to disbelieve Carl Wolf And the logic of what he described tracks It's consistent in my personal opinion The moon itself is a very weird structure You know you have Apollo 10 I believe took off And then it sort of rang like a bell 12th

Apollo 12 No was it 12 I thought it was 12 because 10 didn't land 11 landed. 11 landed, it rang like a bell. 12, 12, they put seismometers in the Earth, and then they crashed the booster intentionally, and then it rang like a bell for three hours.

I think it was 12 and 15. 12, when they took off, they, they, they deorbited the, I think it was the command module. No, it wasn't the command module. The booster. Yeah, it was the booster. Yeah.

And it rang. Yeah. And then they replicated it three missions later, as I understand it. Oh, I thought. But either way, you had a repeatable effect. And you had Gordon McDonald, you know, space admin under Eisenhower saying the only thing, I think he's at Columbia. He said the only explanation for the moon is that it's a hollow structure. And then you had remote viewers at the time like Gingo Swan saying that, you know, fell hollow.

And this is actually a fact. the soil, you know, at the top of the moon, is older than sediment layers below it, which only pattern matches to excavation sites were hollow structures. Well, okay, to play devil's... You shouldn't drill and then get newer stuff. No, to play devil's advocate, if you have a meteorite strike and an explodes, then you could have lower layers that end up on top. That's possible.

It's possible. Okay. But that would just be in one region. That wouldn't be ubiquitous across the moon. Also, the moon is usually way too big for a normal moon. And it is, I mean, I don't know if this matters, but it is, it's like one four hundredths the size of the Earth. And then it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the sun. And it orbits in this perfect way where you never see the dark side, which is also.

So very irregular. That's not something that you would normally encounter. When we compare our moon around this planet to other moons in our own solar system, which we know a lot about, it is highly irregular. Yeah, it's highly irregular. So it's been speculated that maybe it's sort of an artificial structure, like an alien satellite or something like that, spaceship. I'm well aware of a lot of that speculation. Okay. What's the weirdest thing that you can talk about that you worked on at DARPA?

Weirdest? Most interesting. Most mind-blowing. Oh, well, my special access program was trying to reverse engineer camouflage from cephalopods. That's so cool. And what what shook me up was the sudden awareness that possibly in excess of 70% of neural processing in cephalopods is independent. from their central nervous system. And the way

I became aware of it is with a couple of brilliant scientists from Israel, I think it was University of Haifa, maybe. Benny Hawkner and Tomorrow Flash and they came to this fabulous workshop

that Roger Hanlon from Marine Biological Laboratory at Woods Hole. And he's kind of the god of of pods and cripsis behavior. Brilliant guy. You could see his TED Talk.

And it's dated back in 2012, but, geez, 20 years or 15 years before that, I saw that same video. And I sold a $70 million program based on that one video. Wow. It shows him swimming along, and he's coming across this coral reef, and there's Seweed swan back and forth. And as he approaches what looks like a rigid hunk of coral, all of a sudden blanche is white, and you see this big eye in the middle of it,

and it shoots off after squirting ink behind it. Wow. And that's an octopus. Were you successful? Yes. And then a month later, it was canceled. Crazy. With no explanation.

Very weird. No, I thought at the time, so this happened in fall of 2000. Yeah. And I got word right after the election. So the election of 2012 or 2000, the turn of the century of the Y2K election was between Al Gore and George W. Bush. And it was a very tight election. and it got down to the legendary hanging chads. They were counting ballots in Florida

where they were worried about just this little tab not being fully open, whatever, and it made, you know, 2020 look like a regular election almost, right? It was wild. And so there was a lot of rumors about when the Clinton administration left the White House, they had trashed it, and all this stuff. And I was caught up in that, and I erroneously attributed it to a political stunt, that the incoming administration was going to stick it to the outgoing administration

by picking a couple of pet projects and just cancel them. because that was that was the best that I could do to make sense of the data, to connect all the dots. And I was furious about it. And it played no small role in me leaving DARPA and deciding to retire from the military. Because I suddenly started thinking, you know, I need to get my butt. And so SAC came to me and offered me this job making way more money than I ever imagined I could, even as a retired colonel, right?

And so that combination of factors made me take that job and retire. Even though I felt like I still had, you know, I had hopes of making general officer. Matter of fact, I had been told on several occasions that I was going to, that I was good for at least two stars. That's what quote was told to me. It's funny. Speaking to you, it just, it always makes me wonder how this you

program operates or works because like I think you'd be like the best recruit for like something like that no see I am a screw up man no you I mean you're you're into the topic you have this interdisciplinary knowledge and then yeah it's just so weird like I do think SAC I had something to do with this you know Bobby Ray Inman who is director of the CIA and I think like number two at NSA like you know a rare person to be at the top of both organizations and you know he has this call with Bob Oxler, this, you know, UFO researcher. And he's basically admitting that, you know, we have, we have UFOs in our possession. A short time later, Bob Exler received this call.

Mr. Ackler, this is Tom King in Emondman's office. Yes, you wish he's reaching confidence and or violations. So this is the same law and discussing his involvement. And so it's... Ben Rich said same thing. Ben Rich did say the same thing. We have the technology, quote, we have the technology to take E.T. home. Do you think that was bluster or propaganda? Do you think he really?

So, again, putting my behavioral scientist cap on, ego is a powerful factor, right? And all of us. And I have to deal with that myself, right, all the time. And so we, you know, secrets bolster your ego. if if I am told I'm going to tell you something but he can't tell Jesse makes me feel important right so imagine a 30 year career as a senior intelligence officer you rise up through the ranks right and you get to be a GS-15 and you you feel super special like I'm the only guy on the planet that knows all this stuff and your ego is just ballooned up. And what you've got to do is you've got to pop the balloon every now and then. And if you're surrounded by the right people that will pop that for you, not burst it, just puncture and let a little air out some time and it may be re-inflated back and forth.

But without that counterbalance, it can really lead you into some inaccurate assumptions. And that has certainly happened to me on more than one occasion. So I bring this into the conversation in the context of this threat narrative. Yeah. And I really want to push back against the threat narrative and the fear that it generates. Yeah. This stuff's not a threat. I mean, unless there's some specific thing that we're doing now that threatens them,

that is wholesale, you know, orders of magnitude worse than, like, the creation of nukes. I don't see how it is a threat. Well, so, you know, my underlying thesis for what I present in the alien abduction amnesty not is that the abduction phenomenon is at the center of all of this. And so I want to, I want to bow down yet again. and to all of my heroic brothers and sisters in the intelligence community and thank them for their pessimistic point of view. They are inherently pessimistic, and they have to be.

Their whole career is based on briefing a commander with the worst possible case. So I want to counterbalance that and present. a statistically based argument that 99% of the violent crime that is committed on this planet, not just the United States, globally, is committed by 1% of the population. So if you extrapolate from there, which is the only thing we can do unless somebody starts divulge in secrets and telling us otherwise, 99% of them are friendly. and there's only 1% that might be doing bad stuff to us. Now, the middle ground is the scientists, right?

The veterinarians who come in and pluck us out of our bed, play with us, take me off my mountain bike, take me out of my bed after using the hurricane over my house and the cover to land, whatever they do. Yeah. But there's compassion there because they remove our. memories so that we can get on with our lives. If I could remove my Labrador Retrievers' memory of every time I brought him to the vet, I would do it in a heartbeat. Have you ever seen the movie The Shape of Water? Oh, yeah. So that's a great movie. Guillermo del Toro talks about sort of mid-century experiments of human animal hybridization. And I have met somebody who's former DARPA. He said he could tell me this because it didn't end this project that he was working on never got approved

never got went through but it was a submission that he made and it was um based on the work of this guy richard goldschmidt who is an alternative to darwin um you know in the early 20th century is this german guy and it was uh uh hopeful monsters so it was like you had like a you know like a tiger and a lion mate or something then you get a liger and in the liger's case it dies off or whatever. But like every once in a while you get these sort of hybrids that fulfill this specific ecological niche that lives on. And that's how you get these sort of punctuated equilibrium rapid speciation, you know, in the phylogenetic tree. That's how you get these jumps and evolution, which aren't really well explained in the pure Darwinian theory. And I found that

fascinating. And I guess that never, you know, made it across the line. Do you think DARPA has ever experimented with human animal hybrids or human alien hybrids? I, again, I've never been read in on anything, even a whisper of any of that. But that is consistent with DARPA's mission to do that type of research to ensure technological surprise for our country over our other service. know who i don't know what i don't know have you ever heard the name debt lev bronc by any yeah so this guy was in charge of quote unquote alien autopsies back in the day but then he went on to run the rockefeller foundation and he was president of johns hopkins as well he's doing all sorts of

medical stuff and so do you ever wonder if some of our you know things implemented in our kind of medical industry or food industry are actually derived from sort of you know alien stuff two word answer yeah on total Relief. Do you think that Philip Corses' narrative is correct, where, like, you have these metamaterials, basically, you know, the sort of golden age of material science of, you know, the late 50s was a result of the Roswell materials being transferred to, you know, right pad, and then he was actually in charge of doling it out to kind of civil side commercial use cases? So that book was fascinating.

And I think I'd purchased it either, I don't know if it was at the same time. No, I think it was after. I think I bought it when I was at SoCon. So speaking of books, before I bought Corso's book, I bought with the streamers book, community, which is another anomalous behavior factor. It's not as strong as the mountain bike or the bruises on the arm. but it is an anomalous one independently corroborated because my daughter and I were meeting my wife

and my older daughter. This is right around the same time as the mountain bike down. We're cutting through the mall, and we go through at Barnes & Noble. And we're late. And so we're hustling along, and I happen to glance as we're cutting through, and I've freezing my tracks, like solid, frozen.

and I am paralyzed with fear. And the hairs, here it goes again, the hair is standing up on my arms. And I'm staring over at the wall to my right, and it's with East Reber's book. It's the face, the communion face. And I've frozen my tracks,

and the next thing I know, my daughter is tugging on my hand. And, I'm going to know, she had continued walking through the, through the bookstore, gone out to the mall, wondered where the hell I was and came back and grabbed me. She's like, Dad, come on, we're going to be late. And so I let her drag me out of the store, essentially, and we go back.

And so I make some excuse to my wife, I think they were buying school stuff, school clothes or whatever. So he came straight back to that bookstore, and I bought the book, and I immediately ripped the cover off and threw it to them trash before I walked out of the door. And it was, again, that weird anomalous behavior. And so I think it was a couple, a few years after that. It triggered you in some way. That I bought Corso's book, right? And so, and then at one point, we had a, we had a St. Patrick's Day party at, at DARPA, at our office.

It was, it was obviously 17 March, I think it was 17 March, 2001. my wife and I had just separated, preparing for a divorce that she had asked for. And it was that we had been on the rocks for a while. I had cheated on earlier in my relationship. I just, you know, I wasn't a good husband and a good dad. I was just testosterone-filled warrior, you know, mentality, blah, blah, blah. I've come around to sort of try to forgive myself for that. But in any case, we were separated, and so I ended up staying up staying.

the night, instead of going home, she had moved in a basement and ended up getting hammered at this, at this St. Patrick's Day party. I had put on my man makeup, my camouflage, green paint, right? And put on my fatigues, my jungle uniform to play around it. And some people thought it was funny. Some people thought, whatever, dude. And so I ended up in this conference room with a couple other scientists who weren't program managers. They were on the support staff, way smarter than me by any stress of the imagination. And they started, I had this book in this conference room and there was Corsos book. And they're like, you don't believe that, do you?

And I was like, well, wait a minute. So now I'm, now I'm kind of attached. So now I'm going to, we're going to have a little exchange here. and I built up the case that DARPA was what Corsos' original section under General Trudeau became, that DARPA ended up as the conduit to break up all the component technologies and distribute them throughout the wonderful free enterprise, free market, economy of the Democratic United States. That's fascinating, because DARPA was founded around, what, 57-58 or something?

1958. It was right after it. It was allegedly the response to Sputnik. Oh, but you're saying maybe it was also a response to this Army guy, Corso, being given some anomalous material to dole out. If you read Corso's book and you read the history of DARPA, there are some really interesting. Any other reasons to believe that?

Any other correlations you can talk about? Yeah, there's a little smoke. It's not the dark black. Flame is going to ignite any minute. But something that struck me when I first reported in was, look, I'm a nug. Yeah, I got a master's degree in math and computer science from, you know, it wasn't probably the upper tier in academia,

the Colorado School of Mines wasn't super well known, but in certain circles it's very highly regarded. So, okay, but I don't have a PhD, and I certainly don't know anything about the acquisition world, you know, how to contracts are let and all the rest of this. So as soon as I showed up, I asked my boss, to go to this six-month-long program manager course to learn how to manage a program before I start doing it. And he dismissed me out of hand right off the bat.

And he said, you don't need that. This is just going to be OJT. It's on-the-job training. And I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, that doesn't make sense to me because I know everybody in all the regular national labs, Air Force Research Lab, Army research lab, Army research lab, Navy research. lab. If you're a uniformed scientist, you have to go through the certification process just so you don't mismanage

the taxpayer's money. You've got to figure out how to go through contract evaluation and what's the source selection board comprised of and you've got to learn what you can commit to and what you can't commit to. And he's

just going to blow that off. And then I've come to find out that DARPA has an exception to the federal acquisition regulations, the FAR. And that is why all the other national labs despise DARPA. Because they had to go through this, you know, onerous, bureaucratic process to get a contract out the door. that would take as much as six to 12 months, right? And so it was a nightmare. So it was almost like the concept that you were trying to bring to market was obsolete before it even arrived.

But DARPA didn't have to go through all that. We had a shortcut. And we did do source selections. But our stuff was out the door of me. That's why everybody loved it. And the magnitude of those contracts was huge. Right? So at that time, the late 90s, a portfolio of about $100 million, that in the regular national laboratories, that was a Brigadier General's level. That was like a PEO level of management. I had $130 million in my portfolio. Half was robots, half was this stealth program that was canceled a month after it became, again, for no reason. So that is consistent with what Trudeau told Corso to do.

Well, do you think, get the money out there? Do you think cancellation for no reason points to some sort of backdoor to some of these legacy UFO programs where you figure a certain thing out, you start working on it, and then all of a sudden? Again, no flame. Yeah. But this is super heavy, thick smoke. Mm-hmm. 2004. I'm a consultant working back for DARPA, getting paid way too much money again. And I turn on the evening news and there's Katie Couric. And she shows this video clip that she claimed to have received from Al Jazeera. And it shows. a convoy of tanks somewhere in Iraq,

I think maybe up near to Crete, and there's a Humvee. No, the lead element in this convoy was an Abrams M1 tank with like a plow on the front that was supposed to be able to deflect IED. So IEDs were just really becoming a big threat. And so a tank could run,

over an IED and nobody would die, right? So the tank's in front, and they're coming, they come on this, this kind of a serpentine route through this village. It's a compound. A lot of, a lot of the Middle East has small walled compounds. And there was no gate. It was just open. And this tank comes screaming through.

And I think it's followed by either another tank. But behind, I don't know if there's another tank. Maybe it was a Bradley fighting vehicle, a armored personnel carrier. And then behind that is two Humvees. I just remember the Humvee in back. So then it sort of screeches to a halt. There was no acoustics, but I could, you know, from my own time playing with tanks myself. I could almost hear the trash grinding.

Screeze to a halt and it rocks a little bit. And then she is narrating the video and she says, now watch the right side of your screen. And the right side of the screen is this pixelated, image that kind of the only reason you get your attention she's accused you to look over there and it's fuzzy it's like pixelate it's fuzzy and it comes moving along along this wadi this this ditch just outside the compound wall and then it it gets close to the tank and then it's just a blob and then as it maneuvers up onto the to the front of the tank

it's clear that it's two limbs and then two other limbs show and this blob climbs up onto the tank and down into the gunner's patch into the cupola and she plays it like three times slow motion

cephalopod invisibility I'm like holy crap that's why my program was canceled. Somebody was already doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I thought.

Well, sometimes I think DARPAs are like, we would love this to theoretically happen, but it's like we're already work. We already know a lot about this and we're just going to give you a little limited information set and you can, you know, we'll see what you can do with it or whatever. So there's some sort of, and then I think it's original, maybe adding to the point that it does have to do with the UFO stuff. one of the original projects was the Defender Project, which was, you know... I'm not familiar with that.

I believe it was like the beginning of drones back in the day. And you even have this story of this guy who was a lieutenant commander in the Navy we spoke about him last night, Robert Luker. And Townsend Brown finding this green fireball material in Connecticut. And it seems to be decaying rapidly. and he thinks that maybe it's barium titanate and Project Moonwatch and Blue Book both want custody of it, but Brown just flashes his credentials,

says no, it's mine. And then he seems to coordinate with Robert Luker on this. And this is, again, 58, so it was right when DARPA had gotten started, and I think Luker was a part of DARPA back in the day. And it was maybe even called ARPA then? Yeah. For a time, DARPA was called ARPA.

The idea was, let's get the D out of it and let's, you know, pieces broken out all over. Let's, you know, swords into plowshares this for a little bit. And then somebody decided, oh, we better put that genie back in the bottle and make it defense again. So, you know, that's the yin-yang, you know, the sign wave of politics and so forth. But, you know, I don't, the reason I'm bringing this up is I certainly don't want to divulge anything. that is going to put us at risk. Of course. But what's interesting about that is that the claim was that it was Al Jazeera that

had sent this in, right? Oh, so they were trying to out. It makes me wonder, all right? You just don't know. I mean, is this part, but here's the thing, you know, science as we know it. Yeah. But just saying we have the capability is not, you know, that's not about it. Well, I mean, here's the thing is if you can bend space time,

you can bend photons to come around the object and exit the same exact way, and that's your invisibility clip. So if you can bend space time to the point that you can develop a warp drive, you can make yourself... It's inherent in that capacity, that technology, and all you need is enough power to do it. So what takes it off of everybody's books, of everybody's blackboard.

The buried entry is a power. Limitation of the power. But if you have enough power and in Luzbook, he shows the warp bubble that he and Hal Poonoff discussed. And so, and even talk about, and so it's a little bit of a, it's a little bit of conflict within the same pages. Yeah.

Because at the one point, he's saying, look, this is a threat because these things are splitting two F18s. Yeah. And, you know, that is a threat to national airspace. we can't have these things moving around, blah, blah, blah, and colliding with our vehicles. I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, let's back up or move forward, depending on where you are in the book. And let's look at this warp bubble.

You specifically make a case that who's ever in this vehicle can slow time down, right? It's just like it's relativity. Edgar Mitchell measured it on his watch, right? And so for them, it's child's play. Right? It's like everybody else is covered in molasses, and we walk right around them. So there is no possibility of a collision.

Do you think that Edgar Mitchell had anything to do with legacy UFO efforts? You know, he's a Paula 14 astronaut who came back from the, on his way back from the moon, had almost like a conversion experience. and then dealt deep into consciousness, and it was very high conviction in aliens. And, yeah. Well, I've anecdotal smoke here. What's that?

I have anecdotal smoke. I was diving on the Aquarius Reef Base with a NASA flight surgeon who remained unnamed. And somebody, while we were riding, it takes like three hours to get out there from Key Largo. And I don't know if it was right then or when we were down inside the base, but somebody asked him about this upcoming reunion of Apollo astronauts. And I think he suggested that nobody wanted to have anything to do with Edgar Mitchell.

And it was like he was ostracized. and he, the flight surgeon, was all about it. He was taking their side against Edgar Mitchell. And I'm like, what is all this, from Kelly's heroes, Moriarty, what's with all the negative waves, right? I don't understand why, why that, but I got the impression that inside the Assonaq Corps, there was this agreement that you don't talk about fight club, right? You don't talk about the ETs that we have all seen, again, speculation.

But that's what I took away from that story that he told. It was either in the base or while we were riding back to Key Largo on the way back that he told that story. And that was always stuck in my head. Yeah, that was your intuition. 2000, I think it was the summer of 2008. Well, yeah, James Fox, great UFO documentarian, almost had, well, is Buzz Aldrin's sister.

Buzz Aldrin, obviously second person to walk on the moon along with Neil Armstrong. And he apparently would tell his sister that not only did he see a foo fighter in Japan as a fighter pilot, but that he saw UFOs, you know, on the way to the moon. And James Fox followed the guy all around the world.

eventually, like, you know, they were in Monaco together, and he was about to interview him, and Buzz Aldrin said, you know, what would my testimony ever do? Not denying that he had seen UFOs, but like backing out last second, you know, and he's also, I don't know, there's some interesting stuff there. So that's fascinating. Final thing I want to get into with you is you have this fascinating theory. What's fascinating in that you've sort of, you know, made very clear to me is that there are all these UFO crashes pre-Roswell that are pretty well documented and not, only, you know, in Lombardy in Italy, the one that Dave Grush talks about the magenta crash, but one's in the U.S. and Cape Girardo being kind of a famous case of that. And you track

those UFO crashes to some of the high-powered radar capabilities that maybe we were developing at the time. Well, so between February of 2014 and September of, 2014 and September of 2014, I was without a job waiting for the Air Force human resources world to bring me on board. I was enormously frustrated because I had already extended by six months. I had to take a leave of absence from graduate school to take care of my mom. And so they knew that I was going to graduate and I'm wondering, so in the six months, while you're waiting for me to defend this dissertation, why aren't you getting whatever you need to do so that as soon as I graduate, I want to get to work? So I had seven months, six months to just, so I ended up diving deep into this literature over here.

So I come across the Cape Girardot case, which essentially is a scenario where something crosses in a farmer's field in Missouri, Gabe Charado. And the weirdness about it was that there was bodies, small diminutive bodies, that a reverend or a priest was asked to come deliver last rights to, because apparently one of them was still alive. And so the account of this is primarily from the priests, story of this, and initially there were firefighters, and then military folks showed up. So on my drive across country to report into Air Force Research Lab in Dayton, Ohio, I stopped in Cape Girardo, had some time to kill, didn't need to be there for a couple of days as I had a schedule.

and so I stopped in and became familiar and walked the ground and so forth. And then it occurred to me that I was only about a five-hour drive, depending on how much letters in your foot, from there to write Patterson. And then it dawned on me that, well, if something was interdicted, in the vicinity of Wright Patterson, and if it was traveling fast enough, it could have crashed right there. And so I had read Corsos' account

and a lot of other accounts beyond Phil Corso. Stanton Freeman wrote a book, he investigated a lot of Roswell earlier, a lot of folks. Don, oh, I'm drawn a blank, Don Schmidt. and a lot of folks that really, and so there was quite a bit of evidence that maybe radar played a role in it.

So I could easily imagine a few years earlier, right, before World War II was spinning up, I know what R&D is like pre-warfuel, right? Because that's what DARPA does. And I'm imagining folks trying to improve the latest breakthrough in technology, but it was a sensor. Radar was a sensor. It was not an anti-aircraft anything. And so I could easily imagine folks just cranking up the power as high as they could, not to shoot anything down, but to extend range. And in the process of

extending range, unbeknownst to me, unbeknownst to them, this invisible thing in the sky, you can't even see. Next thing you know what? things wobbling and it crashes four or five hour drive away. And so, uh, I have no trouble believing that that is what occurred, not just in Cape Girardo, but maybe in Italy as well. Because Marconi was involved in, you know, when you look at the, where was Marconi? Was it northern Italy? Uh, no, well, Marconi was. Marconi was, you know, I think he was an electrophysicist early on. I know, but I'm wondering,

because the crash was in Lombard, in northwest, in northern Italy. I don't know. I'd be curious where he was working. That would be a wonderful research project to see if there were any radars within a five-hour drive of there. That's fascinating. Oh, wow.

So that would make sense, right? Because this was the advent of radar technology. early on. And so it, what makes sense to me is that someone within the Army Air Corps, right, because there's still Army at that point, realizes, holy crap, if we're going to start cranking up the power, we've got to make sure that if we shoot anything down, it doesn't land in an urban area.

So let's move this whole freaking arrangement out to the middle of desert, somewhere, white sands would be a natural place to do that, right? And then we're cranking up the power again. And the next thing, you know, we shoot down a flying saucer, happens to be during a storm, right? So maybe it was lightning. Maybe it was the radar and the lightning. Who knows? But that's the smoke of speculation around that.

That makes sense to me. It connects the dots. John, what do you want the world to know and where do you hope things? go from here on the UFO disclosure front? I just launched a website to host a couple, a few books. What's the website? And by the way, 55% of the proceeds of those books goes to PTSD treatment for either veterans, law enforcement, firefighters, whether or not it's a direct result of the 20 years of warfare after 9-11.

that's the robotics book, that's what that is dedicated to, and the abduction book that I'm going to present the thesis to you for, that goes to experiencers, especially military experiencers. I want to get them treatment with either hypnotherapy or whatever to help them deal with that trauma. So it's more than the tithing that folks typically do at church. I feel like it's got to be, a bigger chunk, right, more than half.

So anyway, the underlying thesis of that book is just to fight fear. So the website is Fearfighter. Dot net, I think, is what we have. And it's just starting up. So we should be able to accept pre-orders for the book on that. But the basic thesis of the book is abductions are the elephant in the UAP room. It is the reason for all the secrecy. because lights in the sky isn't scary enough.

That's not going to result in the destruction, the collapse of society. Even divulging that there are some beings on these vessels, these vehicles that are living beings, or maybe they're biological robots, but we have their footprints. On the ground, Socorro, New Mexico, 1964, J. Allen Heineck saw them, and that's what flipped him into believing that these, at least that there are beings.

To where they're out from, who knows? So none of that's scary enough to justify harming fellow military folks to keep it a secret. Yeah, that's ridiculous. It has to be too scary. And what is scary enough for me to forgive everybody in the legacy cabal that's been harming our folks and mistreating our own service members. This is what I'm blowing the whistle on. Like I said, I've never been read into anything. But I know that they have been tortured and mistreated and separated, the corrosive nature.

of this compartmentation is denying our military personnel the resilience that they deserve because the best way to deal with PTSD is to talk about it with each other. And yet, what do they do with Terry and Toby? Split them. Reassign them. You can't talk to each other. What do they do with Mario Woods and Michael Johnson? Same thing.

Yeah. We don't even know where Michael Johnson is. Yeah. You see, it's replete. throughout. And so AFOSI, for me to forgive Richard Doty and all those folks that- This is Air Force Office of Special Investigation. They run rampant throughout all the stories where they're clearly part of kind of suppressing these stories. Right. And arguably, we're instrumental in Paul Benowitz's suicide. Yes. If you dive into that old case.

So that's horrific behavior. And so it has to be something enormously compelling for me to forgive them. So in a manner that I am willing to forgive my parents for demanding that I partake in the Santa Claus conspiracy, I want the government to admit that they could not protect us from the abductors. Yeah. And that's hard to do. And I recognize that. But suck it up, world leaders. Yeah. This is why you get. You get paid the big bucks. Yeah. This is what guys used to tell me.

Yeah. Hey, boss, that's why you get paid the big bucks. Sucks for you. But you got to admit when you've screwed up. Yeah. And then I'll be willing to entertain an honesty for you, rather than stringing you up for the murders that you either inspired or at the bare minimum condoned in trying to keep this a secret.

So that's the underlying aspect. And the key is the notion behind Fearfighter is, look, the best way to deal with fear is not to say, stay all warm and cozy in your cocoon of false belief. You got to get out of that cocoon. Educate yourself and choke out that fear like a freaking MMA fighter. You've got to wrestle it to the ground and choke it out. The best way to do that is to educate yourself. So you don't have to be Lou Elizondo or Dave Grush or Carl Nell or Jay Stradner or anything, folks. You don't have to get right in.

There is an abundance of literature that I am claiming overlaps huge. I know these guys get frustrated with me because they're like, how come your jaws and dropping, too? There is nothing that you have told me. me, even post-2017, that I haven't already read before. In fact, I could probably make your jaw drop with some of the stories either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah.

And so that's my message, is fight the fear through education and awareness. And what trumps all of this is what Dr. Bug told me, which is we can't take your soul. And so life after death is a scientifically proven fact. And so even if you get grabbed by these guys and they rip you to shreds, there's going to be some pain, but they ain't going to get your soul. And you might come back around and be empowered to do the same to them, but you shouldn't because you'll learn from that mistake that love is the answer. It's just like Jake Barber said.

That's the answer. And so I'm calling for ontological relief, but you've got to come clean first and admit that you can't defend this. Or admit that, well, this reverse engineering stuff, yeah, we've been doing it. But it was for the right reasons because we wanted to defend you. And now we can't. And I think that's why this trickle has really opened the faucet, and it's a turn at a time now. It took 80 years, you know, and now it's really open in the faucet.

And I think it's because the reverse engineering has been successful enough. You do? Yeah. Do you think we can fly these things? I don't know about that. I don't have any. You think it's, but modern aerospace has benefited greatly, like, you know, a lot of our top-of-the-line airspace.

aerospace, you know, or stealth fighters or whatever. From the brilliant minds that I was blessed to interact with at DARPA, I had no reason to call Ben Rich a liar. Wow. Well, what a beautiful note to end on. I really appreciate you, John. This was awesome. A lot of fun.

Thank you. And thank you for the risk that you have accepted on behalf of your fellow humans. Oh, yeah. Because what you're doing is really, really important. Well, I appreciate that. That's part of that education. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're stretching those minds.

It's just like, it's just like any athletic endeavor. Yeah. You got to stretch. You are too. To team, team stretching effort. Well, thank you, man.