American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Fake ‘Alien Signals’ Drove Him Insane... (ft. Greg Bishop)

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Starting point is 00:00:34 They can use them for anything. He was seeing lights out somewhere on the base, like lifting up off the ground and flying over a mountain and going down. And they were just glowing orbs. And he said that he could look through binoculars and sometimes see like Air Force people or somebody walking around them before they took off. He built apparently a setup and started listening to

Starting point is 00:00:58 transmissions coming from the base. He said there were dinosaurs and like, old like Roman battles and stuff. The Air Force had taken him in a helicopter, flown him up to northwestern New Mexico, and showed him stuff saying, look, we think there's something going on here. And they actually put jeeps and like water tanks

Starting point is 00:01:19 and all kind of stuff in this place as props. And then he starts to kind of lose his mind. Is that right? Yeah, as things get worse, he went there with a camera and took pictures. Bennoz was there with like a rifle and a pistol, and he said, you know, they're coming. You have to come in the house right now. The idea that UFOs are a cover for just prosaic technology is totally wrong.

Starting point is 00:01:44 In fact, it's the opposite. Prozic technology is often used as a cover for you. It's an interesting discussion. Yeah, probably both. In fact, it's demonstrably both. Imagine the Benowitz operation as a 24-hour-long stage play. And Benowitz is five minutes in one scene, not even five minutes. I'm here with Greg Bishop, who is the excellent author of Project Beta, and most recently

Starting point is 00:02:38 It Defies Language. And I know you to be a very hard-headed UFO journalist, investigator, who sometimes reports on things that fly in the face of what the believers of everything want. And the first kind of great example of that is in Project Beta where you documented this guy named Paul Benowitz, who's this earnest industry man in aerospace. And he is driven kind of crazy by the Air Force Office of Special Investigation, specifically this counterintelligence agent named Rick Doty. And it makes for an amazing kind of dramatic thriller. I'm excited to get into the weeds with you. Thank you for being here.

Starting point is 00:03:20 Thanks for inviting me. Benowitz wasn't involved in aerospace, and he was already kind of unstable to begin with. It's just the Air Force AFOSI and other people just encouraged it and made it worse. There you go. Which is no excuse. Everybody says, oh, he was perfectly okay. No, he was kind of heading down that road. It's just when somebody in power tells you something.

Starting point is 00:03:41 Yeah. It's like, oh, well, that must be right. So you just keep, you know. Well, didn't he have a company that sold components to aerospace? They still do. Yeah. His sons still run it, at least one of them. and thunder scientific temperature and humidity instruments.

Starting point is 00:03:56 Okay. I think it's humidifiers and things to monitor temperature and humidity in like highly, you know, corrosive or what are environments like on submarines or on aircraft or whatever. So that's he actually had, as far as I know, contracts with the military for these things, along with a bunch of, you know, scientific organizations and stuff. And he both lives and his office is near Curtland Air Force Base. like basically across the street or what's the his house is in the four hills area of albuquerque which is on the border of the north side of kirtland air force base okay and his office was near the

Starting point is 00:04:35 wyoming gate of kirtland air force base so at work or at home he was always like right next to the base so and the company's still there if you go there there there's a big sign that's a little sign that says thunder scientific uh-huh um and i think his son one of his sons is still the president and I'm not sure if his wife is still alive. Cindy, I think her name is or was. But yeah, that's on, like I said, it's just, you could walk out his front door and down a street like two minutes, and you're at the fence that says, you know,

Starting point is 00:05:06 government facility do not trespass, all that stuff. So this is the late 70s. Paul Benowitz is living and working around Curtland Air Force Base. What's he like as a person? The people I do know that knew him, such as Bill Moore, Doty and Gabe Valdez. Those are three people I talked to who knew him. And mostly, because I was talking about that period,

Starting point is 00:05:31 they talk about him getting more and more frightened about stuff. But I've seen pictures of him before all this started happening. And he's got this mischievous look on his face. He looks like a grown-up kid. I've seen a picture of his application to APRO, Aerial Phenomena Research Organization. And he's just kind of standing like, I know, it's kind of like, wow, that doesn't look like Paul Benowitz. I think of him as like this scared, paranoid person.

Starting point is 00:06:00 But, you know, in the picture, which is just a snippet of somebody, he looks actually pretty, pretty happy and funny. There's a picture of him in the Albuquerque Journal or Tribune, one of the two in 1981 or two. He looks way different. and he has long hair and a big beard, and he's kind of sitting there, and he looks very serious. And it was just profiled him in his business. But, um,

Starting point is 00:06:29 anything about his childhood? Or is he, was he a generally credulous person who believed in other sort of, you know, crazy lore growing up? I don't think so. The only thing I knew about, and I can't remember who I found this out from,

Starting point is 00:06:42 as he liked to read Wild West novels. Okay. You know, um, also he was a private pilot. He had a, uh, pilot's license also I think he did aerobatic flying which made me feel closer to him because I have a pilot's

Starting point is 00:06:54 license too and I've done some arabatic flying but it's just you know there's not a lot on his background people actually said well why didn't you get into his background and what was just your question and I said well nobody that was close to him wanted to talk to me right obvious reasons yeah because it's like we don't want to dig that up again so he's living and working near kirtland air force space kirtland air force space has an interesting history in just UFO lore. I believe it was managed back in the day by the Sandia offshoot of the Atomic Energy Commission. Oh, okay. Okay. And so a couple of places where it shows up in UFO lore just to kind of set the set the scene for people. Maybe take this with a grain of salt, but you have Bill Steinman,

Starting point is 00:07:36 who is a UFO researcher who writes about the Aztec crash, which is a very controversial crash. Yeah, I have his book. I talked to him on the phone once. Oh, wow. I want to hear about that because he seemed like a very interesting guy. He was actually, people don't know this. He was a Skunkworks employee and he was pushed out of Lockheed. That I didn't know. Because he was so interested in this topic. And then he could never really get a job in aerospace again. But he writes about Kirtland Air Force Base with respect to a guy named Eric Henry

Starting point is 00:08:03 Wing because he was interested actually in the Kingman crash. Yeah. Which is associated with Operation Upshot Not Hole, this nuclear test in 1953 in Nevada, the Nevada test range. And you have this Arthur Stancel, this guy who's on the, definitely work. at Wright Airfield at the time. Yeah. And he sees his name in the records because he was this witness of this crash.

Starting point is 00:08:24 He sees a body like a, you know, four foot body mortared or whatever in Kingman. And he, Steinman looks him up, sees his name in the record next to a guy named Eric Henry Wang. Yeah. Eric Henry Wang was head of special studies at, you know, right airfield. He was German. German studied with Victor Schauber. Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 00:08:43 That I didn't know. Yeah. And people say, well, why is his name Wang? And I found out. and I think this is true because of the of because of um monk uh east Asian you know barbarians came through Germany fascinating and so he had this Asian name he wasn't he was German but he had this Asian name because of you know something that happened in what the third I mean sorry like the third century or fourth century yeah yeah there were there were people

Starting point is 00:09:09 named Wang that came through there and just kind of atelahun and yeah yeah I was going to say it till the Han I'm sure not sure he made it to Rome but yeah um Yeah. Mongol hordes did, but apparently that's where his name came from. That's what. Go ahead. No, no.

Starting point is 00:09:22 Amazing. I love it. I love the historical detour. So his name, he's apparently moved from Wright Patterson or right airfield to Curtland Air Force Base. And I believe there's even some sort of complex near Los Alamos that's like named after him. But that's it. Like he's kind of scrubbed from the internet otherwise.

Starting point is 00:09:44 Yeah. Steinman. Like most people that do that kind of work. that kind of work. Bill Steinman gets in touch with his wife, Maria Wing, and she says, oh yeah, he worked at Curtin Air Force Base. He worked on some, you know, secret UFO-related stuff. Yeah, I think they also came and took a bunch of stuff out of his house when he died. Interesting. I don't know that. Kind of like that Tesla story where the Navy goes in in New York and pulls all the stuff out of storage. But the same thing, I believe, heck.

Starting point is 00:10:10 Well, that's interesting. That's definitely factual in the case of Tesla. So, yeah, and then John Trump, Trump's Donald Trump's uncle actually looks at the Tesla files to see if they can confirm yeah crazy history but okay so they yeah raid Wings house Steinman speaks to Maria Wings she says yes he's working on so all sorts of spooky stuff and he was managed by Henry A. Kissinger so that's pretty crazy and then Henry Kissinger is actually on record meeting doing these like kind of meetings this guy Don Cotter, who was head of advanced research at Curtland Air Force Base in 1962, is convening these interdisciplinary groups to talk about UFO.

Starting point is 00:10:55 Not not talk about UFOs. Talk about we don't know. Yeah. You know, kind of, you know, national defense, security and geopolitics. Yeah. And Kisendor is on record being there. So that's the backdrop. Otherwise, all we know is Kirtland is working on probably advanced aerospace.

Starting point is 00:11:14 base. And at what point does Benowitz start to think that he is picking up some sort of alien signal or, you know, he's detecting UFOs? I think it's 77 or eight. He was seeing lights fly. And Chris Lambright describes this in his book, too. He was seeing lights like out, out somewhere on the base, like lifting up off the ground and flying over a mountain and going down. They were, they were glowing ore. And he said that he could look through binoculars and sometimes see like Air Force people or somebody walking around them before they took off. Then they'd go straight up, go over them out and go down. And it's not clear as to whether they were doing things that were unconventional or just kind of doing this. Because if they went zoop and then you kind of like, whoa. So he saw that for a while. And then he started filming it with 8mm cameras and then later video, early video.

Starting point is 00:12:12 And because of that, And also because he was doing hypnosis with this woman, Merna Hanson, that said she was abducted or something had happened to her. You know, at that point, Bud Hopkins' book hadn't even come out. So one of the few people that knew about this kind of thing was Leo Sprinkle and also James Harder. There were two psychologists. And they both worked with APRO.

Starting point is 00:12:36 And as I said, Benowitz was a member of APRO, the area phenomena research organization. Okay. This is a UFO research group. Yeah, they're in Arizona. It was run by Jim and Coral Lawrence and who had split off from the Midwest UFO network, which is now the mutual UFO network. Move on.

Starting point is 00:12:54 Yeah. So they'd started their own group, which they said I think was more scientific. Anyway, Paul joined them. I've seen his application. It's kind of cool to just see what he was saying about himself. Anything interesting that he said?

Starting point is 00:13:10 They said, what are your, what was it? He just said, I can help with some of the technical aspects. He had a master's, I think, in electrical engineering. Okay, that's right. Yeah. And he said that he can help with some of the technical aspects of, you know, if they wanted to, you know, if they had any kind of equipment they wanted to use to start, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:29 doing what people now do now, which is to detect UFOs. And it's been going on for years, but we just got to the point in the last 20 years where you can actually have an automatic system that's pretty accurate. So he said that about his expertise, but he also, other thing I thought was kind of fascinating. They said, what's your favorite UFO book? And he said books by Heinek. That's all he said. Okay. Which is funny because later Heinek apparently visited his house. Yeah. And that's how he got in touch with at first Leo Sprinkle. And Sprinkle came out to interview, to help him regress this woman and figure out what had happened to her. And Sprinkle after being there,

Starting point is 00:14:07 I think the second time he came, he said Benis was there with like a rifle and a pistol. And he said, you know, they're coming, you have to come in the house right now. And this was before he even contacted the Air Force, I think. Wow. So he was already exhibiting signs of paranoia. Yeah. Okay. Crazy. You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about aging, not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slow recovery, lower energy, that middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That's why I started using something called qualiac

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Starting point is 00:15:40 Jesse for up to 50% off your purchase and use code Jesse. Again, that's J-E-S-S-E for an additional 15% off. That's Q-U-A-L-I-A-L-I-F-E dot com slash Jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. So he does, he sees these sort of orb-like things going over a mountain right next to Kirtland. Yeah. And then does he detect anything else, like any sort of like signals?

Starting point is 00:16:13 He wasn't at that point. As things progressed, he started putting up equipment to detect signals because he thought, maybe I can hear what the aliens are talking about. Because he called the Air Force and said, look, there's stuff flying over the base. And I think it's aliens and I want to tell you about it. And I've got films. And so they're, you know, the base was like, he's not supposed to be watching this stuff. So instead of telling him, no, no, I get out of here.

Starting point is 00:16:39 you know, that's nothing. It's national defense or whatever, security. They said, well, come on down here and show us what you got because they wanted to see what it was. You know, is it something we're working on that he's not supposed to see? Obviously, it's something we're working on because he's pointing the camera at the base. So I talked to a guy at the NSA who was not there.

Starting point is 00:17:02 His name was Tom Dooley. I actually talk about him in the book. But he had a colleague that was at that meeting. the first meeting with Benowitz, where they had all the security people and like maybe the commander of the base, I'm not sure, but it's certainly all the security people and some of the military and civilian people,

Starting point is 00:17:20 I guess in charge of different projects at the base because they wanted to see what he's looking at. And he told me, by the end of the meeting, everybody started leaving, and by the end of the meeting, it was like three or four people left because they're like, oh, that's not ours, oh, that's not ours.

Starting point is 00:17:33 So they didn't care about it. But the people that were concerned stayed there. And the only one I know of is, This is a guy that was ahead of AFOSI at the time, I think. And he said, hey, Paul, this is interesting. Why don't you keep telling us what's going on? Because I wanted to see exactly what he's saying, when he's seeing it, and then eventually convinced him that he was working with them.

Starting point is 00:17:52 So he trusted them. So they could basically tell him whatever they wanted and keep an eye on him. And people keep asking. It's like, what do they do that for? And I said it was far more valuable to them to find out what he was seeing, how he was seeing it. if anybody else could do this, even though he was an electronics genius, and who he was talking to. Like, anybody could just write him and say, I'm a UFO researcher, what are you doing? And then they, you know, they could check up on the person.

Starting point is 00:18:17 Maybe he's a Russian or Chinese or otherwise asset. So it's basically so they could get a handle into, what do these people, you know, who does he know, what is he telling them? What is he thinks going on? And, of course, he tells somebody from, you know, another country from an adversary. And they'll get clues as to what's being worked on, and they can, they can, you know, concatenate that with other information they're getting from other sources. So it's another source of information. So I want to make sure he wasn't some sort of security leak inadvertently.

Starting point is 00:18:48 Because I didn't think he was an enemy agent or anything like that. They just thought he was kind of a, you know, outlaw crazy scientist guy, which he kind of was. And in keeping in touch with them, they could keep a lid on that stuff. And I think that's why they contacted Bill Moore. It's like, well, you're a UFO guy. If you, you know, if you cooperate with us, we'll give you some secrets. We'll give you some documents. Hmm.

Starting point is 00:19:11 And they did. But just about all of them turned out to be crap. So let's explain that. So Bill Moore is a UFO researcher who's kind of starting to reach peak prominence at that time, I think, in 79 or 80. Yeah, because he had just written, co-written the Roswell incident. The first book about the Roswell crash. Which really put it on the map before that.

Starting point is 00:19:33 It was not, you know, before him. Stanton Friedman 79 and 80. Yeah, Stan kind of discovered what was going on and then he helped. He was like Bill's research. That's right. Yeah. Nobody mentions Bill at the Roswell Festival. He's why they're doing all this.

Starting point is 00:19:46 Right. Him and Stan actually. Yeah. Well, it might be because of his, his, you know, the souring event. Which we'll talk about. Which we'll talk about. But he was kind of, you know, really starting to ascend in UFO world as a good researcher. And he was also the Philadelphia experiment.

Starting point is 00:20:01 And he was on the board of APRO, too. Okay. That was the other connection. Okay. So he is ascending and then what happens? Does he get sort of co-opted by counterintelligence? Yeah, basically. He got a letter that was sent to APRO.

Starting point is 00:20:19 And APRO looked at it and said, well, why don't you check this out? It was just basically from this guy who said they were on patrol somewhere. And it might have been New Mexico. I can't remember. But he said, we're on patrol. We saw this UFO. It was really weird. Everybody got freaked out.

Starting point is 00:20:31 And I just wanted to write somebody. Bill checked it out and he told the APRO people it's BS. This is just somebody's fake letter. It was supposedly a military person that wanted to get this information out. And Bill checked out and the guy didn't exist. He did find out the incident may have happened but not in the way the guy said.

Starting point is 00:20:52 So he just said, we'll ignore this. It's BS. And a few months after that, he was on tour doing radio shows for Roswell incident. He was at one radio station. They said there's a call for you. He thought that it was a prank call, and he just basically hung up on him. So he goes to Albuquerque.

Starting point is 00:21:12 The next stop on his book tour, he goes into the radio station. Same thing happens. Same voice. And he's like, okay, this is a lot of effort to put in for just a hoax. So he started talking to the guy. And they said, you know, if you're interested, come and meet, you know, at this certain time. And so that's when he met, I think the first meeting he had was with Doty. and the guy known as he called Falcon,

Starting point is 00:21:36 which was apparently was a retired CIA agent called Harry Rositsky, who has since passed away. I think it was like... Do we know anything about him, Rositsky? Yeah. You go look him up and you will know more than I do because a lot of stuff has come out about him since I first... What's come out?

Starting point is 00:22:00 Who he was. what he worked on. His specialty was Soviet operations. He'd come out of OSS. Okay. And World War II. And I think he'd worked with Reinhardt Gailen and some of the Nazis afterwards

Starting point is 00:22:15 to set up intelligence networks in Europe because of the Russians. And he'd also, you know, he'd also been in Afghanistan, I think, and it was monitoring Soviet radio transmissions there. He basically was there, one of their Soviet experts. And so in the late 70s, early 80s, when the period we're talking about, they pulled them out of retirement to help run this unofficial operation against the Russians and Chinese or whoever else. And they needed somebody from the UFO like research community as kind of a

Starting point is 00:22:55 contact. So they approached, I think, a bunch of different people. And a few of them said yes, and Bill is one of them. Do we have any sense of what Doty had, so Doty's obviously going to play this sort of villain role in this whole story. You know, he's the main kind of, you know, Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who enters Benowitz's life and, you know, plants all sorts of BS and kind of screws with him mentally. Do we know anything about his history up until that point? Who, Doty's? Yeah. I don't know too much about it. All I know is what he said, and it's like, what am I going to? What am I going to? going to do with what he said. He said he was a guard at area 51. I have no idea.

Starting point is 00:23:33 It's hard to take that at face value. Well, he also said, I think his father worked at area 51. Are you familiar with that history? Dolan told me that. Richard Dolan. Yeah, I think maybe, yeah, well, Dolan will probably know. Yeah. Um, another, I don't think he ever mentioned that, but you know, he could, he would probably take stories like that and kind of, you know, mix and match them. Another interesting data point on Doty, I know very little about him before the Benowitz story, but he shows up at Mario Woods's case. So Mario Woods is at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota in 1977. He's a missile security officer.

Starting point is 00:24:08 And he not only sees a craft. I see this light off to my east. He claims that these beings walked up to him. He then gets a hypnotic regression. And he discusses being inside of a craft, wakes up 10 miles away, you know, and I think it's dawn. So like hour, it was like the whole night had elapsed.

Starting point is 00:24:29 Yeah. And his partner, Michael Johnson's in a catatonic state. I even tried pulling his hand off that steering wheel. And he has no idea what's happened to him. And he then is debriefed by, you know, a slew of official, you know, people at Ellsworth Air Force Base. And one of the guys is Rick Doty. Next to him was this new OSI guy named Rick Doty. Interesting.

Starting point is 00:24:56 Yeah. Because the first time I saw him was on ancient aliens. And I said, I know that guy. He was at my debrief. So that's kind of interesting as well. What year was that? 77? Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:25:05 So a year or two before. Yeah, well, maybe if true, that's probably why Doty was tracked into this. Right. Because I think he has an interest in the UFO subject. Because I believe. Just like we all do. It's just that part of his job was to mess with people concerning it. Totally.

Starting point is 00:25:20 Which he enjoyed. The weird part is, is like, there's, Mario's is one of the strongest cases. You know, I'm like you. I think a lot of UFO stuff is bullshit. But Mario's, to me, I've spent a lot of time with the guy. It just pattern matches to one of these nuclear cases where, like, clearly there is an overwhelming nuclear pattern that goes above and beyond, in my opinion, the ability for humans to coordinate. So it's interesting that Doty was probably part of a debrief around a real case.

Starting point is 00:25:49 Yeah. And then is also involved in this sort of inserting himself as, you know, a counterintel guy in this other case. Yeah, well, maybe when that stuff came up, they're like, well, either he said something or this guy knows. You know, this is just speculation. Yeah. And Rositsky apparently handpicked all these people to be part of this operation. I asked more about it once, and he said, well, think of it as a giant.

Starting point is 00:26:10 Because what he said was the Benowitz thing was one cog in a giant wheel connected to a bunch of other giant wheels that you would never notice. And the only reason it's noticed is because it's UFO people have kind of made it into a big story. Not that it isn't, but there are a lot of other parts of this counterintel that was going on in late 70s, early 80s before the Berlin Wall fell and all that that people don't know about. The only reason this came out is because it had to do with UFOs so people are interested in that subject, obviously. But what he said, the other thing he said to me later was imagine the Benowitz operation as a 24-hour-long stage play. Yeah, it's like you... And Benowitz is five minutes. in one scene, not even five minutes.

Starting point is 00:26:58 That's how much of the entire, because when UFO people and researchers et cetera hear about this, they're like, oh my God, it's so important. It's like it was a tiny little piece and a big wheel that was working with a lot of other things to like, here's one more way we can, you know, mess with and vet out Soviet assets. And that's what he was using it for.

Starting point is 00:27:25 I don't think Rositsky gave less of a crap about UFOs. All he care about is what he could do with it. It's another thing I had put on a T-shirt. What, UFOs are a Swiss Army knife for intelligence. They can use them for anything. Yeah, we were just talking earlier that they're sort of a Roar Shock test. Yeah. And you could insert UFO.

Starting point is 00:27:46 Like, I find this interesting with like the JFK assassination. If you were a counterintelligent, you would say that the JFK assassination, you would say that the JFK assassination was only, you know, it was like only UFOs. Like say you wanted to detract from the fact yeah that it was you know, nuclear, you know, that that JFK wanted to defang the American nuclear arsenal that you know, get rid of the CIA and so they retaliating or whatever. You throw people down the trail with this thing, UFOs and then it's you can track the people that talk about it with respect to UFOs. UFOs are sort of a proxy for somebody's kind of irreverence towards, you know, earthly authorities or something and open-mindedness generally, you know, you can track Soviet spies

Starting point is 00:28:29 or traitors or whatever. Take something that people have a really strong emotional attachment to, but no way to prove any of it. And that's a big ass wrench in the toolbox. Totally. Because if you're emotionally attached to something, you can be let around by the nose. So sometimes when people get excited, it's like, detach your emotions from this. because you're not going to see the bigger picture if you're just looking at this thing. Well, not only that, you're making yourself susceptible to counterintelligence. Exactly. So I think, yes.

Starting point is 00:29:02 It just, it just, it's snowballs, you know. Totally. This episode is sponsored by one of my new favorite products, Odo. This is one of the coolest internet products I've seen lately. It allows you to start a full scale business from your laptop. It's not just a website builder or a CRM. It's a full suite of tools that all seamlessly integrate and speak to one another. Odo gives you everything in one connected platform, sales, inventory, accounting, e-commerce, whatever you need, it works together out of the box.

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Starting point is 00:30:10 O'D-O-O-O-O-O-O-O, pronounced O-Doo. And follow at O-Doo. Official on Instagram or at O-Doo on TikTok. Now back to today's episode. So, okay, before we get into kind of the meta analysis of how these mechanics work. Let's talk about the details. So Moore is basically his ascendancy is being used against him. We're going to give you secret info if you comply with us. Yeah. And then at what point does Moore interact with Benowitz?

Starting point is 00:30:39 And at what point does Doty directly interact with Benowitz? I think, oh, more interacted with him just because through APRO. And it was very soon, I think, after he was contacting because he said that, oh, does another part of the story. The reason they met with him after that phone call is he was one of the few, because they sent that letter out to different people, that supposed letter from somebody in the military that had seen a UFO at close range. And he was one of the few that said, this is BS. Before he met with Rositsky and Doty, they gave him one more test. They gave him a memo showing that there was some sort of a UFO sighting, I guess, in Central or Southern New Mexico.

Starting point is 00:31:22 ago in the late 40s or early 50s. And it was, I believe it was called, it was part of a project called Silver Sky. Because the memo was called the Silver Sky memo. He went and checked it out and found out that was BS too. So when they finally talked to him, they said, you're the only person that just, you actually went out and found out that this stuff was false. And they kind of, for some reason, they wanted somebody who was, had an investigative mind. like could kind of dig out whether something was BS or not or with a false flag or not or whatever

Starting point is 00:31:57 you want to call it. And that's why they picked him. I think Bill Moore was a pretty decent UFO investigator. Like if you read the Philadelphia experiment, you know, I don't know. It's I haven't corroborated whether all of the details that he discusses are right. And I have a reason to believe there's a lot of counterintelligence around the Philadelphia experiment. This is again, this case. Oh, yeah. 1942 where you know a ship was rumored to be zapped from a Philadelphia Navy port to Norfolk Virginia time travel whatever time travel Thomas Towns Brown and there's a movie made of it there's a movie made about it there's a movie made about it and there are rumors that the sailors in the ship

Starting point is 00:32:36 were were fused to the hull and you heard all these screams and then you have this guy coming out later saying he was a time traveler as a result of yeah Carlos Iyende is the guy who leaked the story to Morris Jessup, who was a pseudonym. The real guy's name was Carl Allen, who was a merchant marine, a Navy merchant marine. Yeah, the Colossilanda, yeah. And so, anyway, interesting story. And Bill Moore writes about this whole story in, like, I think a pretty, you know, hard-headed, you know, maybe you get some things wrong. But, like, he's a good researcher. He's not, I don't think he's a bad researcher. So, but he seems to lend a lot of credibility to the fact that Rositzky and,

Starting point is 00:33:18 And Doty can give him secret information, so he's going to comply. Or, well, at least somebody that Rizzitsky knows is going to hand him dossiers of stuff. Dossies of stuff. He had to go to one time he was told in the middle of this, he said, go to this hotel room in upstate New York. There will be somebody there to meet you. They just gave him an envelope with all these old documents in it and said, you got 20 minutes. Yep. Because what can I do?

Starting point is 00:33:40 And they said, anything you want, you just can't keep the documents. So he had a 35 millimeter camera. He just courageedly took pictures of all of them. Whoa. This happened more than once in various forms. And that was the exchange for keeping tabs on people and saying what this person doing, what are they thinking. As he told me later, and actually he told other people, none of them ever really amounted to anything. The MJ12 stuff, the Eisenhower briefing memo, when he first released the report on them in this book called the MJ12 papers, the thing actually said compelling but not conclusive.

Starting point is 00:34:14 That's all it said. And then after a few years, he said, I don't think, I don't think almost anything I was given was actually true 100% UFO information. Yeah. It was all either around it or completely made up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said he kind of felt, he kind of felt used and cheated. Sure. How does Moore and Doty proceed to trick Benowitz into believing he is detecting more than he is when it comes to alien signals and UFOs?

Starting point is 00:34:43 People are going to argue with me. as I recall it and I wrote, Benowitz was his own worst enemy. The only problem was he had people around him not contradicting him and encouraging him. And then occasionally saying something, the only thing I know that Bill Moore did was he was told to give Benowitz a document

Starting point is 00:35:03 called the Aquarius document or memo or something like that. And it said, there was a little different pieces of UFO, like examinations of footage. It's like this looks good. This doesn't, apparently from some government source. And one of Benowitz's or two of Benowitz's films are mentioned in that. I know that because you look at it, you go, oh, it says, I think, Albuquerque, or Kirtland or something like that. But there are analyses of his films in part.

Starting point is 00:35:34 And they were encouraging. It's like, well, this is unidentified. We don't know what it is. But he was more was told to give that to Benowitz. He said, hand him this document. As far as I know, or he never admitted to me, he never actually went to Paul and Paul Benowitz and said, look into this. This is important.

Starting point is 00:35:55 This was leaked to me. He was basically there just kind of monitor him as far as I know. But Paul Bennett was so excited about what he was seeing and so convinced of whatever he thought became reality that it was really easy just to mislead him with a little push here and there. Well, that sounds interesting. Paul, why don't you look into that a little further? instead of don't worry about that.

Starting point is 00:36:18 That's not part of anything. Everything was encouraged as long as it pushed him away from any secret projects or information. And you see Benowitz start to get more and more fervent in his interest. And he's doing flights around Archeleta Mesa, where he thinks maybe there's some underground activity. They took him up there and showed it to him because they wanted him to pay attention to that rather than to Kurtland anymore. It's like, let's just drive his attention away from him. there. And to in furtherance of that, and, you know, Doty told me this, I think Moore told me this, and then a few people around the area, around the Hickory Apache area. Paul was very excited when

Starting point is 00:36:59 he told him that the Air Force had taken him in a helicopter from Kirtland, flown him up to northwestern New Mexico, to the Archelaeta Mesa, which is on the Hickory Apache Reservation, and showed him stuff saying, look, we think there's something going on here. They actually put jeeps and like water tanks and all kind of stuff in this place as props. So he would be concentrating on that. The funny thing is that apparently there was some sort of crash up there within that period after that. So there was a stealth fighter or maybe it was a drone or something that definitely crashed there. But he never took pictures of it close enough.

Starting point is 00:37:41 You could tell what it was. Oh, no, he got up there after they'd cleaned it up. So you see like this burned area. And Gabe said they went up there and found, you know, broken up brush and evidence that something had been picked up and a pen that said U.S. government property on it. So something happened there that was very important. And maybe they just thought, you know what, this is even better because now he's really going to concentrate up there. And he made drawings of what he thought he saw. And I included those in the book.

Starting point is 00:38:10 And they kind of morphed depending on. what he was thinking at the time. He had like one version of it. And he said it was a craft that the aliens had given to the United States government and the government was flying and they didn't know how to do it and it crashed. And so it just it gets more and more Byzantine and complicated and you know, and his paranoia builds. Is there a good prosaic explanation for the or herbs that he initially saw going over that mountain next to Curtland? The only thing I can think of And based on what I was heard and on Chris Lambright's book, X Descending, it was some sort of project either with drones or some sort of unconventional flying objects that had some sort of glow to them.

Starting point is 00:38:53 Whether you can ascribe that to having like a lighter than air with a light in it or, you know, Chinese lantern type thing or some kind of weird energy or something like that, I don't know. But they seemed, apparently they seemed solid and they didn't move like airplanes and they tested them at night. So how was he detecting any sort of signals to begin with coming out of the base? Because he was an electronics engineer and he built things to pick up, I guess, a wide range of radio signals, probably centered on the military bands of signals, not just, you know, like FM or AM or shortwave or anything. And he built an antenna array. He had all these machines for, for, for, for analyzing the signal.

Starting point is 00:39:45 And he built all this from scratch. Nobody had any of this stuff. Or he jerry-wregs some of the stuff from his lab. But he built apparently a setup and started listening to transmissions coming from the base, which is a huge problem if you're trying to be a security person at Curtland. You know, people shouldn't even be listening to this, much less inventing machines and equipment to listen to it in the first place. Because if he's doing it, other people can do it. That's what they were worried about.

Starting point is 00:40:13 But he thought he could pick up, as far as I remember, he thought he could pick up transmissions that aliens were beaming either to each other or to the military or something. And why did he think whatever he was picking up was alien? Because it didn't comport with anything he could conceptualize. So just the fact that it was kind of anomalous. There was no actual message. It might have been, from what I've heard and what I've assumed,

Starting point is 00:40:42 which might be wrong as it was it was a telemetry for missile guidance or something like that and it's microbursts okay so you know they sounded like and he would slow them down sure and he thought he was hearing patterns in it and saying these are the aliens doing this and he was using this setup and Gabe told me about it he said he saw that setup but he also saw the setup apparently after j. Allen heinick showed up so what bill told me and of course everybody's like well, he's telling you this because it's disinformation, Heinek wouldn't do such a thing. Sometime, I believe, in the early 81 or so,

Starting point is 00:41:22 maybe even earlier 80, 81, something like that. Jay Allen Heineck showed up at Paul's door with a computer, an entirely built, already made computer, and said, this will help you with the signals. And Bill told me that since Heineck knew that Bill was doing some of this spy stuff, somehow. Yeah. They went to or he told him enough that Heinek kind of got it because, you know, Heinek had been employed by the Air Force since the 1960s. And apparently in the early 80s, he was

Starting point is 00:41:53 still on the payroll. He just wasn't doing very much. Yeah. It sounds like he was complicit in this whole thing where. Yeah, but I think that he didn't know what was on the computer. Otherwise, he had a conscience. He might have said, I don't want to do this. Okay. So, okay, so they give him the computer, Benowitz then starts to pick up even more on this computer. So at some, point somebody at the base or at one you know any number of intelligence agencies that were based that had presence there to make sure that the security was tight decided why don't we just give him a computer with stuff on it and let him pick it up and then have it you know because he thought the air force was cooperating with him like he was bringing the information they needed he was but

Starting point is 00:42:37 not the kind that he thought so he thought he was doing sort of vital work security work to That's exactly what he thought. They said, you know, we're interested in what you're doing, Paul. Please keep talking to us. Tell us what you're doing. It's important for national security or whatever. And he's like, oh, okay. But I think even more explicitly, he picks up certain messages that he interprets as like,

Starting point is 00:42:58 we've given the US eight crafts or so like specific things. Yeah, he starts decoding things and the decodings are basically based on his peridolia about what should be coming out of those messages. Parodolia, by the way, for the audience is. a pattern where it doesn't exist, which is a human tendency. Yeah. Yeah. It's an evolutionary thing.

Starting point is 00:43:17 You've got to see patterns so you can survive. Yes. So, but it does us a disservice when it's things like this. Yeah, sure. Because you can make patterns out of stuff that don't exist. So that's what he was doing. As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen.

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Starting point is 00:45:20 Okay. I'm not sure if that's before or after the computer. Okay. It might be after because it seems really detailed. Okay. So what else did he receive generally? Just that there were aliens from another planet. They were here.

Starting point is 00:45:34 They were trying to establish a base. They needed Earth women or something. It sounds like a science fiction movie. Yeah. to propagate their race, their planet was dying, all this stuff, and that they were at some point going to take over. And so that's what really scared him. And I think he was saying that before. And this computer just basically said, okay, let's take what he's saying. And just crank it up. And across the street, there maybe are some NSA officials. Yes, maybe that happened. I mean,

Starting point is 00:46:02 the person that told me that was Bill. And since he's my friend, I trust him. The people say this. about Bill's like, well, why do you trust him? It's like, I've never found him to be lying to me ever. I've known him for what, 35 years or more? Well, if never lied to me once, he could have, but I don't know. His ability to off himself at Mufon and say that he was complicit and wrongdoing is probably maybe some sort of indicator that you should trust him. Also, I don't know why he would make that up. I mean, that seems if you were to, you know, intercept signals. into a mainframe computer, the NSA would be the ones to do that. I mean, that there's signals, intelligence.

Starting point is 00:46:48 That's what they do. Yeah, exactly. So somebody programmed it for him. He didn't bring it to the door. He hooked it up and then started immediately seeing these messages. He also saw pictures. Mm. He thought he was looking into the alien planet into the future and past of the Earth.

Starting point is 00:47:05 He had a little oscilloscope, or at least at CRT. Oh, my God. analog CRT with you know with the scans and what is CRT a cathode ray tube okay like old TV screens yeah got it got it um and somebody had just put this video in there for him Gabe told him he went over there and saw some of him he said there were dinosaurs and like old like Roman battles and stuff but they were probably from old movies but they were all garbled and weird and Gabe said he saw this so somebody was beaming this junk at him oh man and hopefully Apparently, they set up across the street and to send these signals into the computer that would be decoded in the way the computer was designed to decode them.

Starting point is 00:47:48 And he thought it was coming from inside the base because I think they probably just sent him at the same frequency. And then he starts to kind of lose his mind. Is that right? Yeah. As things get worse, he starts losing sleep. He thinks there's going to be some sort of alien invasion. The woman, Mernah Hansen, that he had coming to his house in the 80s talking about. She was talking about being abducted and going to this underground facility, which really that stuff is, I don't know if it's true or not, but it's formed so much of the UFO lore afterward.

Starting point is 00:48:21 So a lot of stuff happening at the time that Paul was dealing with just became part of the UFO lore. And yes, there's independent people that have said that this happened to them. I don't know where they get that information. Maybe it's been disinfo-beamed at them, you know, said to them too. I don't know. Yeah. But a lot of the, a lot of the tropes kind of started back then.

Starting point is 00:48:41 He said there was an alien base underground at the Archelota Mesa. He went there with a camera and took pictures. Whoa. He said of things going in and out of the mountain, but they basically, they're just like blurs. Whoa. And it could be something,

Starting point is 00:48:53 but it would also be camera, you know, artifacts. Who knows? Nothing I've seen of the pictures he took up of the Archeletta Mesa area really amounted. There's no like clear like Billy Meyer looking picture. But, you know, A couple of the things he, videos he took in at Curtland show, there's one of them that looks like

Starting point is 00:49:13 a saucer kind of like this. And there's a, there's a, there's a PSA Pacific Southwest Airlines plane flying behind it. So who knows what that thing was. But as nobody came in and said, Paul stopped, you know, Jesus, Bill said he tried. He did give him that Aquarius document. And it actually mentions access only to MJ12, which is the first time anybody said anything about MJ 12. That's interesting. Was in this fake doc in the Aquarius document. Wow. And it says, quote, MJ-T-W-E, unquote.

Starting point is 00:49:47 Whoa. Yeah. So somebody was trying to plant that in the culture then, too, like in, you know, 1881 or whenever he got this document. But Bill was told to give him this, this is the only documented thing that, document at least by Bill where he said they told me to do this and they told me if I didn't give him that thing that the deal was off and he read

Starting point is 00:50:09 it he knew what it was he's like this is a being honest so he went to Paul's office and he was trained they gave him spy training Bill they had him doing other stuff too they had him like you know passing mail through and doing you know stuff with Soviet spies

Starting point is 00:50:27 on our side spies in the Soviet Union they would send postcards and you have to like read them on a telephone call exactly and then take them to another post office and mail it from that post office to the next post office spy stuff but he said that um he finally because he hesitated it's like i don't know if i want to do this he said it was like you know you're a kid they tell the mafia says why don't you stand on the corner and look yeah tell me if this car comes by and then the next week you're burying bodies you know kind of thing yeah it wasn't that bad but he's like

Starting point is 00:50:59 kind of he kind of just gets warmed into this yep this uh structure this intelligence structure. So he said that he took the, finally he said, okay, you know, I'm going to give it to Paul. He goes down to his office, tells, you know, meet me at your office at a certain time. And he takes some, he says, get a radio. And they go in the supply closet, he said, and he turned the radio up. And he gave him the thing and said, I was told to give this to you, take it with a grain of salt. And he said, as far as he knew, Paul never said anything about it.

Starting point is 00:51:33 and he just put it in his safe at work. So he did this with Paul. Paul took it, didn't say anything about it, but it certainly affected his mindset and his thinking. It's like, oh, my God, I'm important. They're paying attention to me. I'm getting the secret information. What happened was his family got worried about him.

Starting point is 00:51:53 They're like, geez, you know, he's not doing his work. He's staying up all the time. He's chain smoking. Like he'd smoke a whole pack of cigarettes over lunch while Bill talked to him. He's like, Paul, it's like, Yeah, yeah. You know, everybody was telling him to calm down. While knowing what was causing what was going on, they're like, you know,

Starting point is 00:52:10 Doty said he even told him. Yeah. But he couldn't. He couldn't control, you know, I don't know if you've ever been in a paranoid state where just everything makes sense. Everything that is arrayed against you. Every conversation you hear. William Burroughs talks about this.

Starting point is 00:52:27 It's a great lecture he talked about this. But. Yeah, I think. in UFO world, you can get into this sort of solipsistic mindset where you go, oh, this is all an illusion or whatever. And if there are other beings and it becomes this, you're living in the Da Vinci Code or something. Yeah, exactly. And he couldn't get out of that loop. And his family is just like, oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:52:48 So they actually put him in a mental health facility for like a month or so. Because there's these, I've heard people still say, he died in a mental institution or he killed himself. Like, no, his family was worried about him. And they put him in a minute, like a mental health facility for like a month or two, until he calmed down. And when he came out of it, he was still interested in the stuff, but it wasn't running his life.

Starting point is 00:53:08 That's good. And then I think he realized, probably from talking to his family and maybe even Bill, like just, you know, if you don't want to go to an early grave, please relax. Yep.

Starting point is 00:53:18 And Doty then comes out and admits, I befriended Paul that was tasked to do that, and I sent him down the wrong path. And I would continuously feed him passage materials. Passage material is classic kind of spook, you know. I don't know if he did or not, but I wouldn't put it past it. I don't know if Bill was privy did that or anybody I talked to was. Doty didn't tell me that.

Starting point is 00:53:44 Uh-huh. Maybe because he didn't want to say that at the time. I just mean passage material, not in terms of documentation. I just mean, like wrong information. Oh, yeah. I mean, he could have done that anytime Paul said, like I said before, Paul would say, this is happening. Do you think, yeah, you know what?

Starting point is 00:53:59 I have indication that that's happening. Maybe you should check it out. Right. I mean, that kind of thing. And it just kind of builds on itself. Yeah. And John Lear, who's obviously implicated in the Bob Lazar story and sort of, you know, says all sorts of insane things around this time. Yeah, he worked for Air America and all this stuff. So I think John Lear was like Benowitz part too because he communicated with Benowitz after this. Right. So yeah, that's the interesting thing is in some ways John Lear seems like he was fed maybe a ton of disinformation. But he also meets with Benowitz. Are you familiar with this? Did you know that? Yeah. And then Benowitz seemed to be Multiple times until Benowitz got mad at him and said he didn't want to talk to him. Right. Yeah. I can't remember what the breakup was about. But yeah, Beno, he met with Benowitz a few times.

Starting point is 00:54:40 I just, like, asked him questions. And I maybe- Do you think John Lear was subject to the same disinfo as Benowitz? Or do you think he was tasked with- Both. Okay. Not because I could sit here and say, that's what happened. But the indications to me is from his actions.

Starting point is 00:54:58 And what he, you know, what I was told that. When I was told he was met with Benowitz and how Bennett's reacted to him. And also the fact that I think somebody asked Lear at one point about something about, God, I wish I knew exactly what it was. I know who told me so I can ask them. But he said, well, John, what about all this stuff up at, you know, the underground base up at Archela Mesa and the Hickory Apache and this big firefight and all that? and I don't know if it was that story, but Lear said, oh, yeah, I made that up. He actually said this. He literally says I made that up.

Starting point is 00:55:37 To in confidence, or at least privately to this one guy, right before one of those first congressional hearings about UFO stuff in the, I think it was in the early 90s or something like that. It might have been one of the ones that Greer set up. I'm not sure. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, Lear admitted this. And because of his, you know, previous background,

Starting point is 00:55:56 flying for Air America, which he touted a lot saying I was one of the, you know, He's got an intelligence background. Yeah. So CIA cargo pilot. Yeah. So he, you know, he very well may have been tasked to check up on Benowitz and feed him more stuff after the fact. But you're giving Jalen Heinek the benefit of the doubt. Only because what I know of him is that if he knew that's what it was, I don't think he'd have done it.

Starting point is 00:56:23 I'm not so sure. Well, I don't know. I don't have a ton of reason to believe that. It's just a guess. That my only, you know, I think of that, you know, a documentary, UFO's past, present, and future. Eminegers? Yes. Robert Emenegger and Rod Serling's doing the, you know, narration. I interviewed Bob a couple of times on my show.

Starting point is 00:56:42 Interesting. Yeah. I'd love to talk to him. He's a cool guy. I liked him. Seems like a cool guy. Well, it seems like he was maybe one of the first examples of this, you know, using UFOs as a strategy to sort of lure people in because he is in communications with Norton Air Force Base. and I believe he goes there

Starting point is 00:57:00 and everybody there is talking to him about UFOs and they're telling him that they are going to give him the Holloman landing The Holloman landing, exactly, Al Magordo earlier I think in the 60s And so he gets all excited and they say they're going to give him footage

Starting point is 00:57:17 and they keep saying they're going to give him footage and then the footage never really appears and he's actually he is shown a little He says I think he was or is one of his partners, Bob Shardle or thing, something, saw it. Yeah, Alan Sandler, another guy. What did you see on the film?

Starting point is 00:57:56 Yeah, it was Sandler. One of them actually said they saw it. I think even Emineger says he saw it briefly or something. And then you have this video that ends up. You have mostly like this animation rendition and you have those past, precedent and future that they have to do because they don't have the real footage. Yeah. But there's also a little bit of footage.

Starting point is 00:58:14 And that footage has now been debunked as an F4 and an F4. And the F4 came out, I think, in like 59 or something. So it was like right. Like it was probably like not, you know, well known at the time. Yeah. And it was definitely flying, you know, around Holloman. And so I almost feel like the first kind of, you know, Rorschach test, you know, throwing people off the trail was that documentary.

Starting point is 00:58:39 And J. Allen Hineck is obviously a big part of the documentary. So was J. Alan Hineke used in that documentary as well? I don't know. Because he was through this whole thing, he was still getting a check from the Air Force. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. So I don't know. But does that mean you know what you're doing?

Starting point is 00:58:54 Does that mean somebody tells you everything that's going on when you're getting a check? I don't know. But one other data point about Jalen Heineck is, you know, Jacques Valet was like his kind of understudy, his assistant. Jacques Valet finds this pentacle memo in the Blue Book files. Yeah. And he goes to Jail on Heineck and he's like, what the fuck? Because the pentacle memo is like this whole, you know, Battelle Memorial Institute secret UFO research program that is looking at, you know, these hot, aerial hot spots

Starting point is 00:59:23 presumably around nuclear, if you look at what was happening at the time. And John Heinek is like, wait, what's going on? Like, you're not allowed to, apparently you weren't allowed to mention the pentacle, you know, this is written by a guy named Howard C. Cross. You, you weren't allowed to mention that program in the Robertson memo or Robertson panel, which creates a Robertson memo, which is basically the constitution of Blue Book. It creates the mandate for Blue Book to kind of explain away and rationalize, you know, this stuff. And then J. Allen, or Velae comes out saying, you know, I was convinced that Jalen Heineck actually, you know, didn't know about the Penticle Memo and this other thing. But like, I don't know.

Starting point is 01:00:03 There are all these cases where Jalen Heinek has to like play dumb. And I'm like, I don't know, dude. I think you might have known a thing or two because he seems like a smart guy. Yeah. So. Oh, no. I don't think he was dumb, but not being told something. doesn't mean you're dumb. It just means you don't know it.

Starting point is 01:00:16 No, I know, but it's like, you know, maybe three times where he could be complicit. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, how many other times? You know, those are just three times that I know. I'm pretty sure he showed up with the... When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply.

Starting point is 01:00:52 Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Computer, I'm pretty sure he gave it to Bedowitz. I don't know. Yeah, the crux is, does he, did he know what was on the computer? Did he know? What did he know? What did you know and when did he know it? Yeah. So I don't know. Yeah. There's no way to find that out. I tried to ask Qfos when I was writing the book. Do you have any, any correspondence with Heineck during this time? And they said they'd help me like three times. I never responded. They probably just thought I was a

Starting point is 01:01:35 crazy person. Yeah. Well, far be it from I to try to off, you know, a UFO legend in J. Allen. Like he's, he's definitely contributed to the field. I don't know. I'm going to air. I'm going to air. on the side of like what I'd like to think, which is basically my whole MO, because unless something convinces me that something's one way, I'm going to think the thing that makes me feel better until I get contravening it. Because if I don't, I go down the paranoid path. Yeah, but I view the thrust of your work as inconvenient truths that you are laying out before people. And I like that.

Starting point is 01:02:10 I mean, that's an interesting way of thinking. Well, I checked up on the stuff myself. That's why I believe it. checked up on it. If I hadn't written Project Beta, I would probably doubt it more. Because, you know, I didn't experience. I wouldn't be an experience what I experienced. I talked to the people I talked to. Yes, I don't know if I was lied to. With Doty, I know was lied to a few times. So like 95% or more, 97% of what he told me is not in the book. Because there's no way to tell. And the stuff where I just got it from him, it was relevant to the story.

Starting point is 01:02:41 I said, Doty's the only person that told me this. other interesting data point is in 1982, Rick Doty gets in touch with another UFO researcher, Linda Moulton Howe. And she's shown a bunch of documents around presidential, you know, knowledge of UFOs and aliens, as well as Project Garnett, which involves accelerated evolution of humanity with alien intervention. Is that right? That I don't remember. Okay. See, a lot of stuff I wrote about. Yeah. More stuff has come out since then, some of which is accurate, some of which isn't. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:16 And you may very well be right. I do not know what was in those documents. I thought it had something to do partially with some of the cattle me relation stuff she was doing. But it was a bunch of different. Yeah, no, well, I believe it had both. But this is based partially. She was very excited.

Starting point is 01:03:29 I actually talked to Tom Adams, I think, afterwards, who was a cattle meal relation research. And she went up and visited them right, like a couple days after that. And she was like, over the moon. She's like, oh, my God, I saw all this great stuff. It's so important. Right. she took the bait at the time. I don't know what she thinks about it now. Yeah. Well, she was later

Starting point is 01:03:51 interviewed in a documentary and she was like, I just don't want you to paint this, that the whole UFO thing is BS. I was tricked in this one instance, but the idea that UFOs are a cover for just prosaic technology is totally wrong. In fact, it's the opposite. Prozic technology is often used as a cover for UFO. It's an interesting discussion. Yeah. It's probably, probably both. In fact, it's demonstrably both. Well, there you go. Yeah, it's sort of, you know, convection. That's, yeah, it's separate from the UFO issue itself, which, you know, people think that, after I wrote that book, you think it's all like military, it's like, no. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:30 There's no way that the entire UFO phenomenon is military or intelligence connected. So you just use. Some of the UFO stuff is genuinely anomalous. And by genuinely anomalous, I mean not explained by prosaic atmospheric conditions. Oh, definitely. And not explained by military tech, advanced military. Definitely. Yeah, I mean, there's so many hundreds of thousands of things

Starting point is 01:04:56 that have no connection with military anything. I agree with that, too. And I find it frustrating that this case that you write about so well needs to be contended with as a modality of how UFOs are used from a counterintelligence perspective. And you need to have those sets of guns. on when viewing everything in the UFO world, but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yeah. In some ways, that's maybe even the goal that like you're losing if you think the whole thing is fake.

Starting point is 01:05:27 Yeah. Well, there's that belief thing again. If you believe something so strongly, that's all you ever going to see. And so there's people, there's all kinds of opinions about it, whatever people's beliefs are. But the project beta, I mean, I wrote it because, well, because I made the purpose. and the publisher said, let's do this one. Yeah. You know, Patrick Quij and Simon and Schuster said, let's do this one.

Starting point is 01:05:52 I said, okay. But so many different weird accusations I've had about it. It's like, oh, you're cooperating with the government. It's like, no, I was trying to tell a story. That's like saying that some, that's like saying that Vincent Bouliosi cooperated with Manson. He's just writing a story about it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:06:11 A very opinionated story. But that's a weird analogy, because I think Buglios is. who was the lead prosecutor of the case and wrote Helter Skelter about Manson got a lot wrong. Heron Rivera was cooperating with Manson. There you go. They had that weird interview online. That's fine. On TV.

Starting point is 01:06:27 Because the Bugliosi thing, like if you read like chaos by Tom O'Neill, you kind of are like, Bugliosi had some ulterior motive. Oh yeah. The whole thing. Oh, he wrote a book about the Kennedy assassination that said that Oswald did it and there's no way around that. That's right. So for your sake, I just want you to be. be clear. No, no ulterior motives for you. No, not for me. Okay, what am I saying?

Starting point is 01:06:51 If you report on anything, it means that you agree with it or disagree with it. It's like, no, I don't agree or disagree with what I put in the book. I think a lot of stuff that happened was absolutely morally wrong and shouldn't happen. Yeah, of course. You're documented. But I'm not going to put that in the book or say anything about it. I've had people like at convention, when I first started doing this and lecturing about it, like, why don't you tell, you know, why didn't you just say how long it was? It's like, what am I supposed to do? Tell you what it was moral and is not.

Starting point is 01:07:18 I think you got a better sense of what's right and wrong than, you know, I would give you, I could, that I would be assuming. It's also, I didn't. I mean, I'm just, you should know as much of the facts as you can and you make up your own decisions based on that. I think you're also in UFO world. You're kind of setting yourself up for failure if you polemicize everything because you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of right and wrong.

Starting point is 01:07:42 truth and truth. And then you're going to get stuff wrong. You're dealing with the most speculative stuff. So there were times where I've been tempted to make videos. Like the most steel manning I've done are like, you know, it's like I did this piece on Harold Malmgren and I'm probably going to come up with like a rebuttal on, you know, Oh yeah. Because there was that big Dean Johnson thing about it, which I'm happy to address now.

Starting point is 01:08:06 I think it's excruciatingly obvious that Harold Malmgren was CIA. Yeah. And, you know, he says, my agency a bunch of times and his daughter goes, the State Department. And he's holding Paul Mellon's walking stick, which he didn't buy at a yard sale. Yeah. And, you know, so Paul Mellon is one of the founders of the CIA. He says Tom Farmer is his best friend, the general counsel of the CIA. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:08:29 He's this like spooky trade representative in all these cases. He was helping formulate the presidential daily briefing. Yeah. So the guy was CIA. Yeah. A lot of debunking is based on. the most likely thing, especially the UFOs, the most likely thing is a prosaic explanation.

Starting point is 01:08:48 So that's the explanation. And we're going to do anything we can. Well, you literally work yourself towards that prosaic explanation because that's the, you work from a point of view rather than from a, well, I've seen. Which UFO people are completely guilty of it. I've seen his diary. And I don't think it's a fake diary.

Starting point is 01:09:04 And Richard Bissell is all over it. Richard Bissell is the founder of Area 51. And the guy who he claimed to get briefed on other world technologies, from. And he's, you know, even D. Dean Johnson admits that he's in his phone book or whatever. So there's connectivity there. He says in a 2024 interview before me, I was at the IDEA, but that was a cover for my real work for the joint chiefs and the Pentagon. So all I'm saying is everybody in the audience believes that, you know, probably the CIA killed JFK. And if you really connect the dots, who called the shots there? It was Alan Dulles at the Brown Brothers Harriman. So you're talking about this

Starting point is 01:09:41 time where you can't just do a FOIA from the FBI and know that if the person who, you know, uh, got their cue clearance through the CIA, you, you have no idea if they have their cue clearance. That's ridiculous. So I just think that plus like a few anecdotes about, you know, certain people not being aware of him or whatever is insane as a as a sort of like a whole debunk. And then there were a lot of, I thought, what I know of it, it sounds like the, the, he did the, I think he and a few other people try it. No, it wasn't him, but the travel. Walthon case. Yeah. And they're and they talk about this fire tower and it's like it was right next to the road. It's like, no, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. It's over a hill. You think they're so stupid.

Starting point is 01:10:19 They don't know what a fire tower is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, just stuff like that. Not, I'm not saying the whole story is true because of that. I'm not either. The debunk is so ridiculous on the face of it. Yes. I got, I, one of my friends stopped talking to me because I said, get better evidence if you're going to debunk. No, it's true. Like I actually, I like debunks. I like skepticism. It's, it's not like a. Oh, I don't know. I don't, I don't want to see a debunk. I want to see a good debunk. I agree. Which takes as much as, you know, not everything, but takes as much into account as you can and answers all the different data. I agree. No, it's like Kendrick and Drake, you know, disses back and forth, except it's great. If you do

Starting point is 01:11:00 the debunk and then I'll do the debunk of the debunk and we'll get better and we'll get to the truth. And if you win, fantastic, because we're getting close to the truth. So I think it's all, it's all good and it's all love. But yeah, it's a bad. It's not a good. debunk in this case. It's just not. And then there are issues with the, you know, Blue Gild, triple prime. I think, according to Jeffrey Krukshank, who I'm in touch with, who's analyzed this stuff really deeply. Apparently, Johnson's actually kind of really scared. He realized he got a lot wrong when it came to that the booster's trajectory could not have, you know, it wasn't at all near the plume. Right. And then it's funny, you have disagreements

Starting point is 01:11:34 between the debunkers now where my buddy, Merrick von Randencamp, who I think is great, but I think he's wrong in this case, said it was the instrumentation pod. And Deidion Johnson's like, no, it's not the instrumentation pod. It's the booster. And then Jeff Khrushenk shows that it's not the booster or the instrumentation pod. So I think they're sort of running themselves in circle. Like a dog with a bone until, you know, it's, until it's obvious. They don't have it anymore.

Starting point is 01:11:58 That's right. So anyways, all of that's to say, I could be wrong. I am not, you know, I am not the arbiter of truth. I'm covering things. Yeah. I do feel a little more inclined to defend, uh, guy who just died who's 89 years old who to me you know this is probably the softest most qualitative point i'll make but just pattern matches to a great statesman who really helped the

Starting point is 01:12:21 u.s in an earnest way over uh decades and was kind of a quiet operator yeah uh so uh that's that's all say on that but yeah i see an analogy of how i feel about bill more it's like i know him i know his motivations i know his you know his political stance i know his moral code and all of it fits with what he said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it also fits with how, how upset he gets with people that get it all wrong and then haven't been through it. Well, I empathize for that with that or sympathize, you know, and I'll, I'll even say this now. I would bet that at a future, or I'm a horrible dupe. No, for sure. Well, I would say I'll bet. I would bet that in the future, I will have to retract a thing that I cover. Of course. I mean, you are dealing with the most

Starting point is 01:13:06 speculative topic on the planet. Yeah. I mean, so if you. If you, So it's like I will get stuff wrong. Gotta be willing to be wrong. I guarantee I will get stuff wrong. That's the only guarantee. And then like if I get stuff right, then it's like the most important stuff ever. Because it's like so uncorrelated with the consensus reality that, you know, you're contributing in this exciting way. So I think that's the way you have to view everything.

Starting point is 01:13:29 You can't take yourself too seriously and attach your ego to any of this. Yeah. That's the problem. I mean, it's really hard to detach your ego from whatever opinion or research you've done. So getting back to the chord story. So Rick Doty then comes out after this whole saga, and he says that I am now on the side of the truth. And you see him on, you know, UFO Twitter or whatever. And you see him, you know, getting interviewed on Gaia and, you know, saying we have this many alien races.

Starting point is 01:13:57 And these were these crashes that really happened. They see these extraterrestrials, these four and a half foot tall, gray colored entities. He even recently said that Lou Elizondo was part of Space Force. disinformation or something. And so he's going after some of the other, you know, whistleblowers in UFO world. What's up with Rick Doty now? And is he at all trustworthy? The first chapter of that book that I gave you, it defies language.

Starting point is 01:14:27 The title of the chapter is you play the game or you get nothing. And I believe. And what that means is you can be paranoid that somebody's going to tell you BS. or disinfo or lead you down a path or whatever. But if you're not in the game playing, you know, if you're not sent at the table playing cards with people that are just handing you bad cards all the time and occasionally a nice one, you'll never get anything.

Starting point is 01:14:55 So, and I think that applies to Doty, maybe a little less now than it used to because I think less of what he says is either true, relevant, or whatever. And I think that's mainly because he likes messing with people, that's his personality. He's basically, he's a troll. He likes it. He likes messing.

Starting point is 01:15:15 I mean, as far as I can tell, he probably won't want to talk to me again after this. He made a statement a few years ago and he never wanted to talk to me again. Wow. Because I said something about the Serpo thing where apparently there was some exchange with some other planet and some other star system.

Starting point is 01:15:31 Yeah, this was a document leak. It was more like an info leak that was coming through a couple of sources on the internet. Uh-huh. And it involves like hydrogen isotopes or something and exotic propulsion and some spooky science. That I'm not sure of. All I remember was it was basically was like the last scene in close encounters where a bunch of people from the earth go to another planet and then some of the aliens come here. So the Serpo thing was planet Serpo sent a bunch of aliens here and we sent a bunch of humans to their star system in an exchange in the 1970s.

Starting point is 01:16:06 Do you think any of this is, have you heard of cicada? 3301. No. It's okay, so it's this weird like online scavenger hunt puzzle that involved complex mathematics that was presented in 2014. And I'm going to screw up some of the details, but like very high level, I think it involved like you had to solve it. You needed a serious math, you know, aptitude. Yeah. And a lot of people think that the whole puzzle was set up by the NSA or CIA and it was like a recruitment tool. Do you think some of this stuff that's coming out through Doty or other people is some sort of initiation path? Or do you think it is all passage material to catch bad actors or Rorschach test to test people's belief structures or what do you think the purpose is

Starting point is 01:16:58 I don't think it's so much that anymore. It's more like when I first saw that article in 2017, the New York Times article, the Kane Blumenthal thing, with Elizondo in it. The first thing I thought was, what new project are they trying to ingrain within the, with what's it called, mix with the UFO subject and for what purpose? So I didn't think it was a purpose like... Do you have a top candidate for what that project might be? And do you think that the 2017 article was sort of of the same, variety as whatever happened to Benowitz.

Starting point is 01:17:40 No, I don't think it was a Benowitz thing because we live in a different time where information is disseminated in a completely different way than it was then. But do you think those, you don't think those three videos that came out? I don't think they were faked. I'm pretty sure they weren't faked. Okay. But I think, you know, Roershock blot again, Swiss Army knife again, get something that everybody's interested in.

Starting point is 01:18:06 there's a lot of emotion around it. There's no real idea about what it might be and then use it for whatever you need to use it for either to deflect or direct attention. And I think, and this is just me being dumb, at the time, and I think still, although in the last few months it's probably messed up now, I think there was a cold war going on with China and they're just trying to keep it from going hot.

Starting point is 01:18:38 I have a friend that lives near Los Alamos. This friend told me, you want a job? And I said, what? She said, Los Alamos is hiring. I said, I don't have any of those skills. It was a woman, she said, you can you can write English competently, can't you? It's like, yeah, you edit video. They need those people.

Starting point is 01:18:56 I said, why? Why does Los Alamos need those people? She said, there's a huge nuclear arms race going on right now, and they're building bombs like mad. And I just thought it sort of coincided with what all this big buildup with the, and I don't know if it's directly related, but I think the UFO subject right now is being used as a, as a fulcrum to figure out what people think, where people's attention can be drawn. I mean, it's just, I see it as this giant like social experiment seeing, you know, how can we use this to our advantage? Right. And on top of that, there's a technology advantage.

Starting point is 01:19:35 advantage. There's an advantage where you have some technology that might look like that, and that can be, you know, attention to be directed towards or away from that. And, you know, I know that sounds vague, but I'm not privy to that information. I mean, you probably had other people on here that probably know a lot more than I do about that. But my suspicion is that it's being used for political gamesmanship, covering up defense tech, black projects, all that stuff. Well, it's definitely being allowed to be amplified at the very least. And I look at some of the people. And I think it's metastasized and that it's all over the place now because somebody probably thought, let's just do this little thing. And now it's because I guess the time has come and it's

Starting point is 01:20:19 become this big thing. The other thing I think, yeah, and I'll fit, I won't interrupt you. But the other thing I think is it is crowdsourcing expertise around the subject. So people with sure, people with the, with the training and the equipment and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, but we're scared to before, are going to concentrate on the UFO subject and put some expertise to bear on it, which was discouraged in the past. Yeah. You know, now that stigma has been lifted. I think that that's right.

Starting point is 01:20:51 Like, I think about this stuff. So that's a good, that's a good thing that's happened for this. I also think like one of the things that I got interested in through the UFO subject, but in some ways, you know, is the most out of left field and uncorrelate. with kind of consensus ufology like really came out of left field was the towns and brown stuff around like you know grass you said this place was steps from the water we just haven't found the steps yet how much did we save enough enough to get lost or you could book a stay with hilton welcome to your ocean front room just steps from the water the hilton sale is on now book on

Starting point is 01:21:31 hilton dot com or the hilton app and save up to 20 percent to get this day you exceed you When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Have any manipulation experiments? Oh, yeah. He said that he was really impressed with your, like, digging into that Townsend Brown stuff. You know, Bill Moore interviewed T Townsend Brown?

Starting point is 01:21:51 That's why I want to talk to him, because I know he did. And I made that movie, the cosmic conspiracy about I may have his notes from that. I'll look for them for you. Thank you, man. That means a lot. Yeah, I appreciate that. So, but with the brown stuff, um, it's, people don't know who he is. Well, I'm also, I'm convinced that, you know, I've, I've signaled to no end that like,

Starting point is 01:22:14 if I am doing anything that like seriously hurts like American national security or like, you know, get, you know, then like, I, I want to know. Yeah. But nobody, nobody said anything. So it's like, it's just like, you know, sort of empty on the other end. So at that point, somebody, I imagine has made a call on high. that like we're going to allow some of that stuff to come out too even though you know completely organically looked into it and kind of i think corroborated a lot of his stuff yeah and somebody

Starting point is 01:22:45 probably made a call that like you know i'm not like extremely well versed in like some of the high level theoretical physics around it that at least saying this guy created this topological physics effect you know we're probably past the point of like that being okay The byfield brown. The byfield brown effect. Yeah. So you could be right that like there are these like surprising but adjacent things that UFOs give you a framework for. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:23:12 That like, you know. Well, maybe whoever in the Navy or whatever was hoping for that. Yeah, they want like energy unlocks and they want more surface area on new propulsion mechanisms. Even if we don't know what UFOs are, it's going to push Bud Hopkins of all people. You have a whole secret science kind of initiation. I had a recording of him from 1987. or something. I videotaped him for a documentary. And he said, UFOs are dragging us kicking and screaming into the science of the 21st century. It is. And it's kind of happening now.

Starting point is 01:23:41 I agree. Well, John Mack would talk about, you know, how to the Harvard Psychiatry Department of Friends with Bud Hopkins. Yeah. You know, who would see all these, you know, abductees. He would talk about how UFOs would inspire tech because it would look like, like you had the airships of the 1890s or whatever. It would look like tech that was just, about to come out. And, you know, Bill Lear is quoted in 1956, you know, he was the father of John Lear and invented the first, you know, Lear Jet. Yeah, Lear Jet, first private jet, basically. And he said, you know, I believe anti-gravity is possible because UFOs display them. And so I, that to me is just this really important thing where it's like, kind of a chapter on anti-gravity and Project Beta

Starting point is 01:24:24 actually. Ah, yeah, that's right. About that memo from the British, whatever. Society of Gravity Research or something and it was released some of the copy I saw was stamped Wright-Patterson Air Force based on it and it missed about like five pages like there's this big legend about the missing five pages where it's like it was achieved in the mid-century in and then it cuts off and then it like well we know that Wright Airfield was sponsoring the Chapel Hill conference in 1957 at University of North Carolina with the top theoretical physicists in the world. And at the same time, the UNC Chapel Hill was sponsoring Townsend Brown's work on anti-gravity. We know that Wright-Airfield had a dedicated team of people working on

Starting point is 01:25:10 anti-gravity, which included Lewis Witten, father of Ed Witten, who was at Martin Corporation's RAS, their anti-gravity division. And he says in an interview live that we have tape of, he goes, I was hired to do gravity by Wright-Earfield. And that's what I did. The reason there was a laboratory at right field was to find out what we were doing and to help us do it and i got a contract from right field to do it to do gravity which i did very happily and you have josh goldberg who's a phdculec who's a top physicist also working on the theoretical underpinnings of anti-gravity yeah so we know that this stuff was extremely in vogue in the 50s and who knows it may have been done or partially done. I have a friend that was in the Air Force and he said that when they go,

Starting point is 01:26:03 when the stealth fighter lands, people go in and pull panels out of it and put them in briefcases and go away. And he said the rumor was that some of those were anti-gravity, just to help it fly in a different way that, you know, not totally to gravity, but to help the avionics. Yep. That's a, that's a rumor. That is possible. I go back and forth on that with like the B2, for example, where I don't see a ton of hard evidence that the Paul there never is, but maybe that rumor was was given to me just to see who would talk about it and where that would come from. It's one of those things where you pour dye

Starting point is 01:26:36 down like 50 pipes and you see where the dye comes out, you know. Yeah. Well, I track the brown stuff pretty closely and I think his work did make it into the B2 but the part of the aspect of his work that made it into the B2 is electric fields and their ability to manage airflow over an airframe and confer a tactical advantage when it to reducing the lifted drag ratio. Right.

Starting point is 01:26:59 Okay. So that's all I've ever found on a really first principles level. And then there's a bunch of hand-waves. Yeah, that might be it. That might have been what the guy was talking about. I think so. Maybe it's mixed in with the Brown legend because of that. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:27:10 Well, I know that I'm pretty sure 95% that Brown stuff made it into the B-2 bomber. In fact, Floyd Odlem, who is the majority owner of Northrop, who funded Brown's work in the 60s, paid Brown $4,000. or I don't remember, $2,000, $4,000 a month, and his family, the same amount, until he died. Yeah. Until the 80s.

Starting point is 01:27:34 Yeah. So, I mean, that to me is. Yeah, exactly. Good, good memory. Yeah. So, I don't know. It's fascinating. Yeah, UFOs really are,

Starting point is 01:27:44 you've made this analogy to me on the phone before. It's like if you have a bunch of pipes, and the pipes represent, you know, possible weeks in intelligence, you pour some dye in the pipes, and you see where the die goes. Yeah. And the UFOs, I think, are used as a tactic for that

Starting point is 01:27:59 where it's like you sprinkle in a UFO here, that's, you know, shouldn't be there. Or a rumor about a UFO or some case or whatever. And you see it's like, don't talk about this. Then you see who talks about it. You see who track. Yeah, exactly. And then you see whose trustworthy. It's funny.

Starting point is 01:28:12 A long time ago while I was working on this booking before that from knowing Bill, if somebody tells you don't talk about this, I always think it's a test. Me too. I always think. And that's happened to me before. It's happened to me. on a thing that was later debunked publicly. And I was like, I know what you're doing.

Starting point is 01:28:30 I know you're telling me this because you want to see if I'm going to leak it. Stuff about the Tick-Tac incident and pilots whose names hadn't been released yet. I was told, don't talk about this. You were. You were. Yeah. And then like six months later, bam, their names are out there. And I think whoever told me.

Starting point is 01:28:47 So in your case, it was true. Yeah, it was true. So you were given like David Favors' name before the Tick-Tac incident or something? I think Alex Diedrich and a couple others. Whoa, that's crazy. Yeah. Interesting. And I talked to Alex Dedric later, but I didn't tell her that.

Starting point is 01:29:00 Can you say who gave you that information? Nope. There you go. Pass the test to whoever did that. That's wild. Crazy. Interesting. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:29:10 Whoa. And it doesn't mean I'm hooked into any, like, great network or anything, but that's, you know, and it used to be a lot this would happen. Now about once or twice a year, somebody will tell me. Yeah. Lynn Buchanan, who I've known for a long time, the Army, remote viewer. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:29:24 He told me like, eight or nine years ago that he had met with an alien. He said, but don't talk about this to anybody. He's like, why did you meet with the alien? He said,

Starting point is 01:29:33 well, they wanted to see if I could communicate with it because I was one of the remote viewers. He said, but don't mention. I was like, all right. Then like five years later, he said it online somewhere, so I can say it now.

Starting point is 01:29:43 Whoa. Really? Yeah. So he's still on record claiming that he's met an alien. Yeah. At least I hope it came up Because I saw it later, he had mentioned it in somebody's interview or on a podcast or something.

Starting point is 01:29:57 Where did he meet the alien? I don't know. He didn't tell him. He was probably on a base somewhere. At least he wanted me to think that. Wow. I don't know Lynn really well, but I interviewed him in like 97 or something. So I've kind of, he's, we've been meeting every once in a while since then. And every once in a while, he'll, he'll, that's the only thing he ever told me, don't say it, don't mention it. And I said, why did you tell me? He said, it's for your information. Wow.

Starting point is 01:30:20 But there's so many little bits and pieces of information like that that just float around. And I think a lot of them are just kind of like throwaways of something that used to be important. Yeah. But it isn't anymore. But then they become this lore in the UFO community. And then they just stick and they grow. And, you know, it's just, it's, you know, fertile ground for any weird rumor like this to grow. Do you suspect, like Diana Pesolka came out with a quote where she was friends with Chris Bledso?

Starting point is 01:30:50 who had all these UFO interactions. By the way, I'm not in any of the drama. I love Diana Posulka and I love Chris Blodso. Yeah, I'm the same way. But Diana Posulka came out and she said, I think Chris Bledso is a modern Paul Benowitz. Chris Bletso claimed to, you know, have an interaction with this goddess Hathor

Starting point is 01:31:10 and see also at alien craft and a bunch of government people are very interested in him, which is, I think, pretty demonstrably true. No, that is demonstrably true. You know, he'll say like I'm going to do. So kind of the same dynamic, I guess. So do you think it is the same dynamic? Do you think they're just genuine friends or like, what do you think? I think whoever is interested in the subject thinks he may be a key to the answer or part of it.

Starting point is 01:31:36 And when that happens, then they just become friendly until I've had this happen and you probably have too. Somebody comes from the government and tells you something that nobody else knows or very few people know. And then they say, you know, I'm telling you this for not. Lynn didn't do this because we'd known each other for years. But just because they want you, they want to flatter your ego and get your confidence and find things out. Yep. And I'm not saying that, you know, Samavan or whoever the people that are talking to

Starting point is 01:32:04 them are like, you know, we're going to get all of his information and throw him down, you know, throw him out with the trash. No, I think they're genuinely interested. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they genuinely think something, some useful information can come from him. And if they're friendly with him, they can get some of this information. could be useful, either both for their own personal quest and knowledge and also for whoever they might be working with or for.

Starting point is 01:32:30 Totally. I don't think, you know, some of these. Not to say that any of those people, all those people are wonderful and moral, but. Yeah, but I don't think, I don't think you can immediately jump to the conclusion that they are modern Rick Dodees either. No, no, no. It's a different dynamic. You can be in the government and earnestly want disclosure.

Starting point is 01:32:46 And usually if you're in the government, there are caveats to your earnings. desire for disclosure that involved national security. But yeah, I don't think. I don't paint them with all of them with this evil brush. I don't think you can a priori impugn anybody's motives unless they prove to be really, you know, bad actors. Yeah. And if they do and they're working in intelligence, they're not always bad actors.

Starting point is 01:33:11 It's always something or other. And that's why I, you know, I think, you know, for my, they said, what do you think of Richard Doty? It's like, I don't hate him. Yeah. I don't think he's evil. I just think he was doing his job and he likes messing with people and that's it. Also.

Starting point is 01:33:25 And what he did, some of the things he did were morally wrong and he knows it. Also, if we have, you know, take it face value that we had a remote viewing program for 23 years at the very least, we probably have covert remote viewing programs now and take it face value that some of that remote viewing was effective, you have a guy in North Carolina who is claiming these like remarkable stories around. kind of a miracle healing that he's experienced and messages that he's getting involving prophecies. If you take the first thing as a real intelligence modality that obviously needs to be corroborated by other intelligence modalities, you're going to take seriously this dude in North Carolina. Yeah. And you're going to be probably very interested in that. You've got antenna up and you're correlating all kinds of different information, most of which might be BS.

Starting point is 01:34:15 Sure. But the stuff that isn't is worth all the others coming through this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The thing I've found too, I don't know if you found this, but sometimes people inside the government are more conspiratorial than people on the outside. But like you assume that. Because they've seen it.

Starting point is 01:34:31 That's right. They see it all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you're in this for anything where you get a little glimpse into how some famous person or somebody that's not too many people know or a government. operator when you see what's going on with them just get a little glimpse of it yeah you realize how much what we all see and in the news and all that has already been decided like months or years before and it's not like you know it's not some conspiracy it's just the way the world works yeah yeah yeah

Starting point is 01:35:04 you're not for you and i are only privy to a certain amount of information and other people are privy to less and other are more yeah way more and there's and you know it's kind of our our you know You and I are interested in. It's like, what are those people above us doing? What is coming down the road? How is that going to affect us? What does the past look like because of that? What does a future look like because of that?

Starting point is 01:35:24 Who does it affect? You know, should I be emotional about this? Is there a moral issue with this? I want to know all these things. And so I've got antenna up just like these weirdo government people. And I've learned things from them too. You know, just how to operate and how to think. And part of that, like you said, is being a little bit paranoid.

Starting point is 01:35:41 But only a little bit because I've been a lot paranoid for, about a year and I didn't like it. That's a lot of paranoids never get. I made this documentary with David Grush in September of 2020 after he testified before Congress. He said that he, you know, gave over like, I think like hundreds of pages, maybe over a thousand pages to the, you know, intelligence community inspector general, you know,

Starting point is 01:36:05 experienced reprisals based on his blowing the whistle. And he brought forward 40 people directly to the ICIG who had, you know, worked on this stuff firsthand and we're still in this sort of liminal space even though he did all that which is kind of crazy. I just wanted to put enough out there touch on all the most sensitive parts like the biologic side and like things that really need to come out. Yeah. But I don't want to overly disclose because it's not my job. I don't know him well. I don't even know if I know the details about remember the details about what he was saying except to, you know, shore up that the government is interested in the subject has been for a long time and a lot deeper

Starting point is 01:36:44 than we think. Well, the substance of what he said is that we have non-human bodies, pilots and craft. We have, you know, craft in our possession that we have. Okay. Yeah, now I'm remembering. Yeah. Crash is on record. He talks about the Magenta Crash, 1933. Um, he even kind of talks about, you know, possible agreements, I believe in the Ross Colthard interview. And then he says he has all these firsthand witnesses. And again, like I know him to have a very idetic sort of memory and to be a very, you know, intense kind of, you know, as mild autism, you know, researcher. So yeah, he does, you know, definitely not fit the pattern of some of these other really slick and smooth, savvy guys. So it's interesting. Yeah. Well, the mistake I think people make with Grush and other people

Starting point is 01:37:36 is that they want to know if they're telling the truth or not. That's not the question. I think the question is, is what they're saying relevant and can connections be made with what they say to other things that things have been said and also documentation if you can get it. It's just kind of this, it's a, I keep using the word concatenation, but it's a cichatination of all this stuff together. And when somebody says, well, I think that person's lying, it's like, why?

Starting point is 01:38:09 Because he said this. It's like, he said like 500 things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're saying everything he said is a lie based on this one thing you think is a lie or have you proven as a lie or is wrong or inaccurate. That's not how the world works. No. It's especially not how the UFO world works. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:38:23 I think it's tough being in that whistleblower position because the more you say, the more surface area exists on, you know, what, yeah, the more falsifiable. There's more ways for people to get their hooks and pull you apart. Yeah. And it's going to happen. It's not like you're commenting on, you're not like a sports commentator on ESPN. People are like, this is the truth. And if you say one wrong thing. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:38:49 Well, that's different because I always had that analogy people, look at that analogy people made it with this was brought into a court of law. Then, you know, it'd be proven. It's like, no, wouldn't because we know about murders and robberies and stuff. This is dealing with something we can't bring in a lab and prove and not many people had experience with. So it's a whole different thing. And it's throwing all these different definitions we have. And, you know, I hate the word ontology, but throwing everybody's ontology into question. It's like, how much of this are you going to let into your life? How much of this is relevant to you? You know,

Starting point is 01:39:21 is it just like, you know, is it just like talking about movies and TV shows or something? Or does this mean more? I think it means way more. But I also don't know how much of this stuff is going to much more of it is going to come out. because I think that every time the government says, hey, let's look at UFOs for a while, when the usefulness of looking at it and having it in the public is gone, bam, it's gone. And then suddenly everybody's like, well,

Starting point is 01:39:44 you were just going to tell us what it was? And this has been the longest and the strongest I've ever seen it go on. And so I don't know what the end game is, but I have a really strong feeling that as soon as whoever gets what they need to get or it's not useful anymore, that faucet's going to be turned off. I hope I'm wrong. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:40:03 Because I'd like to see something, although the disclosure thing still kind of irritates because my one quote about it, and I keep saying it, and I've been saying it for years, disclosure is like asking the parent that always lies to you to tell you the truth, the truth, just this one time. And if they don't tell you what you want to hear, they're lying. I love that. Well, there are two vectors, though. There's like, is the government ever going to like let some of this stuff ultimately out in the way of,

Starting point is 01:40:28 like, showing you a craft? And what do they know? And what do they actually know? Like, do they actually know anything as far as like some metaphysical worldview that it's super concrete as opposed to, you know, maybe not. Maybe it's just very ephemeral for them. It's too, too much to admit it because it's not explainable in terms that people would understand. So what's the point? And it's much more useful the way it is now, which is that that Swiss Army knife that I was talking about.

Starting point is 01:40:53 Yeah. But I do think, so there are two different vectors. Is the government vector? I do think if we just followed up on some of David Grush's, you know, face value claims, that would be like really exciting if we could like corroborate, you know, some of those. And it's crazy that it still exists in this liminal kind of kind of kind of space. Well, the UFO exists in a liminal space. So it drags everything else along with it. Right. Right, right, right, right.

Starting point is 01:41:18 I mean, that's the model it's coming from. So it's going to be fighting that the whole time. Yeah, right. Sure. Prove this liminality to me. Break, you know, collapse the waveform. I don't know if that's going to happen. Well, that, yeah, I mean, then you're getting into deeper stuff, which is so there's a government vector and then there's like a belief consensus reality vector. And like, most people believe there's aliens and exist and UFOs are real. Most people believe that.

Starting point is 01:41:45 Yeah, no, it's like probably over 50% of America. Yeah. So if there's some other like version of reality that is agrigoric in nature where like you are literally, you know, going to create the manifesting things in your purview, then. The amount of momentum that I see now has to turn into something. And I don't know what that turns into. I don't know either. I like that Whitley Streber quote where he said,

Starting point is 01:42:08 the government was keeping it secret because if enough people believed in it, would allow it in. Fascinating. I think he said that in, Communion. No, it wasn't in communion. It was in his majestic. It was his semi-fictional account of the Roswell crash and everything after it.

Starting point is 01:42:29 Right, right, right. Really good, a lot of metaphors in there, which are still relevant, and I still go back to. I love it. Well, I'll check that out. Have you had Whitley on? I have. Yeah? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:40 It was great. He's always a good interview. And people, I was at contact. I got to get up on, I got to speak at contact. I wasn't scheduled. Amazing. But I got up on stage because Dean Aliotto showed his film, Alien Perspective. And one of the first things I said, when I was, they asked me for a statement, I said,

Starting point is 01:42:57 and I've said this before, you know why I believe. people say, do you believe Whitley Streber? I said, I believe him in the way I believe, you know, the Beatles or the foo fighters or or or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, you know, Jackson Pollock. He's a great artist. He's a great artist telling you the truth of how he sees something that has affected him. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's the case of, you know, when it comes to a lot of experiences. And then people say, well, then he just made it up. It's like, no, art doesn't come from nothing. It comes from, it comes from the artist's feelings. It, his or her life experience everything.

Starting point is 01:43:31 And the way Whitley's explaining to us is the way an artist would explain the abduction phenomenon to us. And it's in a way that nobody else talks about it like he does. And I've enjoyed it from the beginning. Well, that's a beautiful note to end on. Greg Bishop, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your work. Everybody go out and buy Project Beta as well as it defies language.

Starting point is 01:43:54 And yeah, thank you, man. Thanks a lot. All right. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamavat Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino,

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American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Fake ‘Alien Signals’ Drove Him Insane... (ft. Greg Bishop)

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