American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - He's Seen More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive (Ft. Jacques Vallee)

Episode Date: October 5, 2024

Jacque Vallee is the legendary French UFO researcher who formed the basis for Steven Spielberg's eccentric scientist in Close Encounters of The Third Kind. He has worked with every prominent player in UFOology since the 60's including Dr. J. Alan Hynek who served as the Chief Science Advisor to project Blue Book, the Airforce's UFO investigation program from 52'-69'. Vallee has written multiple groundbreaking books that suggest "aliens" are actually interdimensional entities codirecting human evolution, not new visitors from Space. In this interview, he makes some fascinating new suggestions around the nature of these entities; we also discuss a real, secret project behind Project Bluebook, his model of reality and time and the commercial group that holds the secrets to the American UFO story. Go out and buy his new book, Trinity! shorturl.at/epsIW *** AMERICAN ALCHEMY is an original series hosted by Jesse Michels that explores the frontier of science and tech. Each week, we bring you exclusive interviews with some of the leading thinkers of our time. INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichels TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [e-mail] SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHANNEL: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7eOJzNRWY4l2UTDvIquxYg?app=desktop original music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/6LlLRudDi60Uy4jcmOSEs1 - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. You know, there's something deeper that creates the illusion of space and time in humans. The UFO world can be a spooky one. It's hard to know which sources to trust. You have to listen to your inner voice about who has ulterior motives, who is profiteering, who is spreading disinformation,

and who is performing psychological operations on the American population. The point is, without an internal compass, it's easy to end up alone in a hallway of mirrors. These days, since our technology platforms are so high to generate effects, then it really is a zoo of options and possibilities. But occasionally you meet longtime researchers who are clearly on their own genuine quest for meaning in life, and their inquiry into UFOs is just one part of that,

a harbinger of the next paradigm, a fascinating scientific anomaly with profound sociological implications. I would be a shame of being human if I didn't try to find out, or at the minimum, acknowledge that it was there. Jacques Valet is the ultimate archetype of this. He is a serious researcher with the computer science, physics, and astronomy background. He even helped build the earliest version of the Internet, a project called ARPANET, with legendary computer scientist Doug Engelbart. And for the purposes of this episode, he has probably talked to more UFO witnesses

and seen more exotic material than any living person. In fact, it's now almost conventional knowledge that if you're an average citizen who encounters a UFO crash, mail the materials to Jacques. Jacques's books are incredibly dense and detailed, not for the faint of heart. But if you read them closely, Jacques can drop some truth bombs,

you won't get anywhere else, like in his book Revelations, alien contact in human deception. When he hints that Bob Lazare was actually an M.K. ultra-patient, possibly the subject of government brainwashing, which led him to believe he worked on reverse engineering UFOs. On page nine, the laywrights, Robert Lazar also told me of his strange memory lapses

of the peculiar liquid he was made to drink. It violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate. But perhaps what I find most interesting about Jacques is that he's just as mystical as he is hard-headed and scientific. He's as interested in esotericism, parapsychology and Philip K. Dick, as he is nuts and bolts analysis of the material science and physics involved in UFOs. We really don't have a good idea of what reality is. When Steven Spielberg wanted to depict an eccentric yet brilliant scientist studying

UFOs for his famous movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, he decided to base the character, played by Francois Truffaut, off of Jacques. I've been privileged to be a very famous movie, enough to have a few private conversations with Jacques prior to this interview. He often doesn't answer my questions directly and almost seems to speak in code and parables, leaving me with breadcrumbs in the form of books and anecdotes, but not explicating his point. But in this interview, I pressed him to give us explicit details. Spoiler alert, he dropped some serious new knowledge on us. Project Blue Book was the best I could do at the time because they felt they had a real project going on that was secret.

Okay. Is that true? And the Air Force did. Oh, I didn't know that. We also talk about his new book, Trinity, The Best Kept Secret. It describes a UFO crash in 1945 next to the Trinity test site in New Mexico, just 20 days after the first ever atomic bomb test on United States soil occurred there. So without further ado, hit subscribe, sit back, and enjoy this long-awaited interview with the French

godfather of UFOs, my friend, and this week's American alchemist, the legendary jock valet. Different parts of the brain have different activities. But you know that, don't you? Maybe you should interview me. I want to start with Trinity, the book, and then we can kind of expand out from there. It's a fascinating topic that I think kind of updates our modern understanding of UFOology because we think about Roswell as a sort of basic starting point.

And in fact, at Trinity test site in New Mexico, there was a test on July of 1945 and then 20 days. later in San Antonio, you see this crash. Trinity is a fascinating story, just 20 days after the first atomic test on U.S. soil. And two days after the Japanese concession, a metallic avocado-shaped object dropped from the sky in San Antonio, New Mexico, right next to the test site. It is damaged. It has lost one panel, but it kept its integrity. Two kids, the sons of local cattle ranchers, Remy Baca and Jose Padilla,

Pada, ages 7 and 9 respectively, saw the craft in the distance. Through that opening of one panel that's missing, they see three creatures. They were human-like. They had two eyes. They were, you know, about three feet. They had two arms, three fingers, and two legs. They were walking by moving like that without moving their legs. They were sliding.

Translate or slide. Remy was crying. Remy's was seven-year-old. You know, he says, look, you go there if you want to. No way, you know, I'm going into that thing. But why would Jacques at the age of 83 write just another UFO crash story? Because this isn't just a Roswell redux. The Trinity story has unique profound implications on UFOology for three major reasons.

Number one, it occurred before the word flying saucer was in our public lexicon. It's not a flying saucer. The term flying saucer doesn't exist. It's going to be invented two years later by Kenneth Arnold. This shows that the UFO story, even in the American context, likely precedes Roswell, which also happened in 1947, two years after Trinity. And that flying saucers are just the modern version

of something that has been going on for millennia. This is a point Jacques repeatedly makes in many of his books. You know, people have always seen aliens. I mean, you know, when I wrote past To Magonia, people said, Valé has gone off the deep end. That's what I want to engraved on my grave, you know. Valet has gone off the deep. Number two, when Jacques inquired about Trinity,

no one with top secret clearances in the U.S. federal government had even heard of the case. In fact, Valet was introduced to it by an Italian UFO researcher named Paola Harris, who later became his co-author on the book. And she had already interviewed and had tapes of interviews with both of the kids who by then were old men. In Jacques's mind, this complete obliviousness on the part of the federal government shows that the group that holds the secrets to the UFO story is a small insular one with their own separate set of clearances.

One big question that Paola and I have had is would Oppenheimer have been told? The Manhattan Project would have custody of it? it and then it would go into the Atomic Energy Commission and then it would go into the Department of Energy which has its own line of clearances and that's why I can't find among the people I know who have clearances above top secret they've never heard of this. Yeah. They've never heard of this because you can be in the Pentagon with the top secret clearance that if you're not briefed on the atomic secrets you wouldn't get the clearances that you

needed to do to open up that day. In fact, Chris Mellon, the former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, claims he almost met with someone from the UFO program. I was supposed to meet a fellow, for example, who supposedly was in one of these aerospace companies and supposedly had been directly involved in that activity. And we were about two weeks away from meeting when he died. when he had a heart attack.

To add more evidence to this theory that UFOs are in commercial hands, subject to a completely separate clearance system, is the notorious Wilson memo. A leaked document describing a secret meeting occurring between the director of intelligence J2, Admiral Thomas Wilson, and a physicist and propulsion expert named Eric Davis. In this alleged meeting, the Admiral expresses complete exasperation as he uncovers and meets with a black budget private aerospace

Corporation attempting to reverse engineer crashed UFOs without any official government oversight. Wilson says that the geekkeepers of this program are convinced that the material in their possession are not of this earth, but that the process of doing anything productive with the material has been slow and cumbersome, with little to no success since Roswell. They also describe a system of intense compartmentalization, so no one in the program, besides those at the top have the full picture. No one has the whole puzzle or an image of the whole puzzle, but they have pieces, they have corners of the puzzle.

The whole thing was set up to be that way. On purpose. And number three, Trinity is a perfect example of the inherently absurd nature of UFOs. It is a bizarre yet cinematic story that is so hard to figure out, but has had a profound impact on the witnesses involved. It's absurd. I mean, think of the Zen. You know, the sound of one hand clapping.

Well, where's the other hand, you know? So, you know, it stops your brain. The behavior in close encounters is not take me to your leader. It's not this is what you guys should do from now on, because that's a way to work. I want to actually get the book because I highlighted a couple of passages and I want you to see what you're... You're the kind of reader.

I like. You know, that's what an author likes to see. You put it on page five. You kind of, I mean, this is, I've always found this about you. It's like you're extremely detailed in your writing and then you'll like put one line in italics, which is like you have to think about it a lot. So like here you go, and two days after the emperor surrendered, just one month after the awesome atomic test by Robert Oppenheimer and Rico Fermi and their star team of physicists. A weird object came out of nowhere, circled in the sky over the mesquite infested hills, as if to underline the enormity of what had taken place or to acknowledge it, or even in my own speculation, to open up a parallel historical and strategic path, one that

superseded even the taming of the atomic force. So what do you mean by that? You know, I mean, how many years has it been and we haven't used the Atombard? Right. Never. The Russians haven't used it. No. You know, there were lots of occasions where, I mean, we could have terminated the Korean War with one plane. Sure.

Right. Cuban missile crisis. Still begs the question, if you're an alien civilization or an angelic civilization or something, celestial civilization. And you want to open up a parallel timeline. Why would you do it in such a kind of... tongue-in-cheek sort of way, like a, like, you know, you drop a three-ton avocado? That's sort of a strange way to open up a parallel timeline. So that goes into a discussion on control systems.

And, you know, that's in psychology, but Skinner, so on. If you want to teach something to somebody, you shouldn't reward every instance where that kid, that person does something right. Intermittent reinforcement. You want to change your behavior of somebody who drinks too much. You want to change your behavior of a kid and get him to learn something that's hard to learn. You should not reward every time because if you do it every time, you get fast learning, but then they un-learned.

People go back to the way they were before. Jacques Valais talks about, like, how do you create a real, cult following. It's not by showing yourself consistently. It's like if you if you have, every time you hit a lever, you know, some treat comes out for for a dog or whatever. They're going to hit the lever less than if it comes out randomly. This idea of intermittent reinforcement if they're like sort of sporadic. So do you think our evolution as a species is being co-directed by through the intermittent reinforcement by a superior species? that maybe uses control mechanisms like religion

where you sort of show up to some profit as a specific sort of shape or form and then they create a noble mythology and then everybody else sort of follows them. You don't do it by landing on the White House long because people will be amazed for a couple of days and then they'll say, you know, that was a trick, that was Hollywood, that was

oh, this guy wanted to stay in power so he rigged it up. You have to be subtle. Which is what we see now, you know, in politics every day. You know, I mean, how do you know something is true? You don't anymore. You don't have a reference anywhere. I still want to get back to you.

So what would the, if there's a trickle-down effect of seeing this avocado, that's somehow deterrent in terms of using a nuclear weapon for human civilization, I don't quite see what that would be. Look, you know, Jose went inside on the last day. The floor was flat. That means there's about this much underneath. Okay, the thing is oval. It's an avocado. And so the, quote, engine, if you think of an engine, the engine is in there somewhere.

You know, even if a propulsion system is somewhere else, beaming energy into it, you still have to lift that, you know, three, four tonne gadget into the air. So it was a show of force. almost, but a light show for it was like we're much more powerful than you because we have propulsion that is stepwise better than you could ever

access. You think you're really small because you blew up a weapon down the road here for the first time in history. Right. Now, you know, look at this. Right, right, right. So do you think these things are air dropping? You know, you've said you've had

private conversations with Philip Corso. Yes. Do you think these Entities are sort of airdropping technology, and they want us to become as technologically advanced as possible, and it's this sort of demonic apocalyptic force. Army officer Philip J. Corso was on the staff of President Eisenhower's National Security Council for four years, later becoming chief of the Pentagon's Foreign Technology Desk in Army Research and Development. So he was definitely in high government circles, as corroborated by many colleagues. But in his book, the day after Roswell,

Corso claims a covert government group was assembled under the leadership of Admiral Roscoe H. Hillinclair, the first director of the CIA to collect all information on off-planet technology and retrieve all of the debris from the Roswell crash. Corso even claims that he was part of the cleanup crew at Roswell. He goes on to say in the book that the reverse engineering of the Roswell parts

This indirectly led to the development of fiber optics, lasers, integrated circuits, and even Kevlar. I worked at the time. We had the first computer, this was way back, the first computer in France from IBM, where the circuits were cards. And when something went wrong, the repair guy came in with a test thing. He would test the whole computer, identify the card that was wrong. We'd pull it out, put it in the trash can, put it on the other one. a new one in. So we had a trash can that was full of these wonderful little complete cards with complete circuits. So I took one of those and I was having lunch when I made Michelle and I told him

you are my my priest. Okay, I respect you very highly and I have found something in my field that I cannot recognize. Can you tell me what I should do with it? And he says, well, I, I have found something in my field that I cannot recognize. can you tell me what I should do with it? And he says, well, show it to me my son. And I showed him the circuit. And he looked at it and he said, my son, burn it. It is from the devil.

And, you know, the analogy is you see a UFO in your field. What do you do with it? Maybe, you know, at some level, we should just burn it, you know, because something like that has never happened before. Yep. After I saw when I was 15, I saw that object outside, you know, over the yard. The thought that came into my mind, if you want to go there, was I would be ashamed of being human, with the equipment that I'm given,

you know, with the brain I'm given, good or bad, if I didn't try to find out to respond to it in some way or at the minimum, acknowledge that it was there. I'm not going to lie about it. I'm not going, I don't know what it was,

but I'm not going to pretend that it wasn't there. And I think that's the way I, you know, I'm still going. There was one case in good old San Jose. A woman had seen something over her house. It was a big disc. And I say, how big was it? And she says, well, it was about the same size as her house. It was, you know, just like that.

And I say, well, when you went inside, you said, you know, there was this being, and the being took you on a staircase. I say, where did the staircase go? Well, the staircase went up. the side of this big round room. And say, how would you compare it? Well, like a movie house, you know, like an amphitheater.

I said, that's bigger than your house. Why is the inside bigger than the outside? Well, like if it exists outside of 4D, you know, time space or whatever, say this is, you know, you have a 2D universe and this is a 3D object. If it intersects, you're just going to see a sliver of it. So you'll just see a disc. Yes, yes. Edwin Abbott wrote about a 3D society interacting with a 2D plane in his late 19th century classic Flatland.

On Earth, we have the ability to move above and below sea level, east-west, and north-south. So we have three degrees of motion, or axes on which we can move. Say you're a fly in a box. You can move up and down, forwards and backwards, and right and left. But say that box is part of a larger hypercube, and the box part is the only one of the only one. only part of the hypercube intersecting with our 3D plane. The hypercube would obviously be much bigger on the inside than what's represented on the outside intersecting

with our visible reality. Instead of describing this phenomenon myself to you, this clip from the great Carl Sagan says it all. This cube casts a shadow. That shadow we recognize as two squares with their vertices connected. Now, let's take this three-dimensional cube and project it, carry it through a fourth physical dimension. In that case, we would generate

a four-dimensional hypercube, which is also called a tesseract. I cannot show you a tessaract because I and you are trapped in three dimensions. But what I can show you is the shadow in three dimensions of a four-dimensional hypercube or tessaract. This is it. And you can see it's two nest all the vertices connected by lines, and now the real tesseract in four dimensions would have all the lines of equal length and all the angles right angles. That's not what we see here,

but that's the penalty of projection. So you see, while we cannot imagine the world of four dimensions, we can certainly think about it perfectly well. Do you think people People, you know, we were just talking about Jeffrey Mischelov who just interviewed you. He wrote about a guy named Mr. P.K. Ted Owens. And Ted Owens claimed to be almost a biological sensor of UFOs.

And there are people, I think Chris Bloodsoe in North Carolina, there are a couple of other people who sort of claim similar things. And so is there something about the human body and its energy capacity that allows perception in some cases and denies it in other cases? when maybe we're actually swimming in these things and we just don't sort of perceive them in our normal reality. That's something that Hineck was, Dr. Hineck was worried about. He was very bothered by people who would see,

so you'd see a UFO you reported, okay. You see another one, okay? There are people who've been hit by lightning twice. There are people who win the lottery twice, or three times. But then there are people who see them all the time like you see.

You know, they never know exactly when but boom, there's a UFO in the sky. We have people like that on the ranch, you know, in Utah.

People have described people who were, you know, trained army officers who went to the ranch a few days went home and boom

there was some phenomenon following them and you know the entity may play with your life can be there is it good or bad because you know

I think of the hierophonies that Diana Pesolka writes about where somebody can have a beautiful religious conversion experience that seems positive and then in other cases they feel like kind of demonic tricksters telling you false information. So it, from what I've read, people perceive it as bad.

They want to be rid of it. And we certainly hear that from current witnesses who had no idea that this was possibly going to happen. They are bothered by things in their home, including things that cause trouble. Own it all. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly Big Board Buckslot machine by Aristocrat Gaming, Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is giving one person a $1.6 million dream package.

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Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. One of my all-time favorite Jacques Valet books is his 1969 classic passport to Magonia. In it, he basically moves away from the theory that UFOs are aliens from outer space and instead proposes that we are interacting with interdimensional beings that have been with humanity for thousands of years.

I had always wanted to look at where did these stories, fairy tales, whatever, that we tell to little children, where did they come from? All of the books about different civilizations in the Pacific, in Siberia and so on have footnotes. They say, by the way, the shaman also told me 50 years ago there were little men who came out of a big light, you know, in... Nivgorod. I mean, you could take the stance that Roswell or Trinity was this very strong kind of demarcation line, or you could assume that we've been seeing these things for thousands of years.

Which Jacques Valle, of course, would say, I guess. And would you disagree with that? No, I absolutely agree. Maybe these non-human entities have been using tactics like B.F. Skinner's intermittent reinforcement, confusion, deception, and absurdity to drive human historical narrative. for thousands of years. And maybe Celtic leprechauns in medieval Ireland, angels and demons in the Bible,

and what we now call space aliens, are all just the same thing. It feels like you have a proto-architecture of something that's been going on for thousands of years, and what somebody recollects from the experience is dependent on the kind of noble mythology of their current time. It's million than Eddie D.L.I.B.S.

Barney Hill, perhaps one of the most famous abduction cases in the U.S. occurred in 1961. In recalling their abduction through a hypnotic regression, they said that the aliens they saw had eyes around the rim of their heads. This was exactly how aliens were depicted in the hit sci-fi CBS show, Outer Limits, which premiered on national TV 11 days before their abduction. The easy explanation here may be that Betty and Barney Hill were brainwashed, but perhaps they just encountered something so hard to comprehend that in their recollection of it, they just attached the closest available low-level meme they could to it.

In this case, it was the space aliens from outer limits. But maybe in biblical times, it would have been angels and demons. This brings us to an even trippier question. Why are we now seeing space aliens? Is this just the noble mythology of our time? Is our UFO experience being mediated? Does media play a profound role in our interpretation of these incomprehensible mystical experiences? We know those stories have always been there.

The patterns, when you look at the patterns, you strip the interpretation. You just look at the physical pattern. It's identical. It's not, you know, heat-searching missiles. It's not all of that. It's not the Nimitz. It's a lot bigger. We have good instruments on the F-18s,

and then we have... have an entire ship with the most modern radars, which are, by the way, still classified, so we can't give you the data from those radars. And that's, I don't know, I understand that, okay. But let's not extrapolate too much, okay? But this is all about phenomena that can be detected with the instruments we have today, which are very good. You know, I know you have sort of an information theory-based model of the universe, and so

So if you think about computer science, which I know is one of your backgrounds, you have kind of a client side and a server side. And Carl Jung writes about the UFO as kind of the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness. And if you think about a lot of these hierophonies, they involve sort of psychic phenomena. And so what if we're sort of these compressed fractals of this kind of back-end server? And it's a two-way communication where you might be a particularly active biosensor because your electromagnetic field of your body is to a certain level or something. And so you call certain information or really it would be fetched. Well, you resonate with certain things.

Other people may not resonate with. That for sure. And then on the flip side, it's like Rupert-Sheldrake's morphic resonance where if 100 people do a crossword puzzle and you do a crossword puzzle tomorrow, you're a little more likely to do it accurately, where you're pushing information to the server as well. Yes. And if you do something new, then you make it easier for someone else to do something.

Your adventure capital, you know why we don't sign no disclosure agreements. Because, you know, an invention happens. This week, there'll be five people who will make the same invention. Yes. But the real nature of the total invention isn't the thing that's on your desk, okay? It's something else at some other level. And until you found that, you don't have, you don't really have an invention. Yeah.

Okay? I mean, the transistor was invented in 1930s. There's nothing they could do with it. I mean, they didn't even have vacuum tubes, or they're starting to have vacuum tubes. But then, you know, in 1945, 46, suddenly we have a use for it, you know. And but even that isn't recognized by the company. Well, like the etymology of the word genius is a tendon spirit. Yes.

And so it feels like in a lot of cases, scientific innovation and technological innovation isn't this sort of mechanistic process. It's almost like an idea zapped into the inventor's mind, like Wolfgang Powley figuring out the architecture of the hydrogen atom or Dirac's equation or all these things that get sort of downloaded. People say, you know, if you gave Leonardo a garage door opener, there's nothing he could do with it. But if you gave him a garage door opener and a garage,

Leonardo would be would push a button at random and the garage would open and he would say well I don't know how they do it but these things open the garage Now with UFOs we don't have the garage You know we have bits and pieces of things

Well is a nuclear explosion a garage opener Because you were talking about you know You talk about Trinity And you talk about Roswell And similar things happen in the towns After the explosions you have people report devils chasing them around and all sorts of paranormal activity.

So are you opening up a window to another plane? You say that energy correlates with information. So if you have this massive energy kind of output, then all of a sudden maybe you can seem more. Yes, an impact that continues. So the question is, can we walk up the chain of events and can we get back to the source in some way? I recently read Foucault's Pendulum by Imberto Echo, and he talks about the Templars and how they have the secrets of time travel.

And there's an interesting theory actually by a professor at Montana Tech named Mike Masters, who says that aliens are just us from the future, and they figured out time travel, and they're sort of coming back in time. Do you ever think about that as a possibility? Do you think humans could ever master time travel? Well, the idea that they are from the future is one idea. There's an idea that's more radical, is that this is all a simulation. It doesn't matter when you think about it. It doesn't matter if we are in a simulation. You know, one of the great founders of AI, of course, is Dr. McCarthy at Stanford.

He had the AI lab on the Hill. when I came to Stanford in 68, and he told a story. His story was, you know, in the future, you're going on with your job. You're selling something. You fill out a form and people pay you. And in the evening, you go home

and you watch TV with your kids. And then the next morning, you get into your car, you go to the office and fill out some forms and people pay you and you go home. Okay. And then one day you're going to get a letter from the Bureau of Simulation. The Bureau of Simulation says,

Dear Sir, we have observed your daily behavior for the last six months. And you have not done anything that was not predicted by the model. If in the next six months you don't do something that's not predicted by the model, you will be replaced by a simulation. created human. So the guy is in shock and it tells his wife, you know, I need to do something, you know, change my life completely. So he drops out of his job, takes whatever money he has, moves to the Himalayas, starts climbing

mountains, meditates, does all the things you're supposed to do, you know, and six months later he goes home, a week goes by, and he feels really good. goes back to his job and there's a letter that arrives from the Bureau of Simulation that says Dear Sir, in the last six months you still haven't done anything that wasn't predicted by the simulation model and you have been replaced So he's still there doing his job waking up in the morning driving his car and so on But he doesn't exist anymore Yeah

He's an NPC. He's a simulated piece of software that does all that. So, and UFOs, you know, the way they behave in an absurd way, I mean, why would you want to have 11 F-18s chasing you all over the Pacific? When you know you can evade their radar anytime. It's absurd. It's a very interesting type of linguistic play, interplay, with the consciousness of a viewer.

You go to your job at night through a forest and you suddenly see a disc and you see somebody there and he asks you the time and you give it the time and he says you're wrong, it's 2.30. Well, you know what time it is. He's wrong. Why is he wrong? Why is he wrong?

You know, why would he say something like that? Then he says, am I in Italy or Germany? With this, says, you're in Alsace, you're in France. And then the guy goes back inside his thing, I think, takes off. What does it tell you? Well, at the first level, maybe he was still dreaming, you know? That's a logical thing, you know. He made it up.

But you have to go up a level. You know, go up a level, it says, you're wrong about time, you're wrong about space. Right. You don't know where you are. You don't know what time it is. In fact, you don't know what time is. Yeah. Okay.

Now, when I talk to a physicist like Eric Davis, that's what he tells me. He says, you know, those dimensions like space and time, they're arbitrary. Yeah. You know, there's something deeper that creates the illusion of space and time in humans. And you think reality is sort of like an hourglass, right? So you have a constricted present and then maybe probable futures and probable pasts or something, but they're various in nature. I think a physicist like Eric would tell you, we really don't have a good idea of what reality is. It's not even obvious that we can stop it long enough to look at it.

Do you think the future can cause the past in some ways? Well, you know, the reality is really quantum form for a physicist today. It's not tied to any particular space of time. It has its own internal properties. And then when we are designed in such a way that when we experience it, you know, I think of the table as solid and I think of the air as not solid. because I can do this and with the table, it hurts me if I push on it. But that's just me.

A physicist looking at it would say, you know, that's your delusion, Jack. You know, I can show you what the atoms. Just an electron cloud or whatever. They're repelling against each other. So is there a way to, you know, a lot of ancient traditions have this concept of an illusion a great illusion, like Maya, that would be the Hindu version. And Plato's cave, Glaucon, talks about a form of meditation or a protocol to sort of see beyond the veil.

He also implies knowledge is sort of, like in the Mino dialogue, he says all knowledge is recollection. I think Socrates says that. And I know you're a fan of Philip K. Dick, and you recommended that I read Valis one time. and I think it's horse lover fat is sort of Philip Kiddick's alter ego that he sort of writes into the book. And he also talks about the birthing process. It's sort of an amnesis, you know, amnesia. You forget your former self and you're propelled forward in life by some cosmic wound to find the true primordial self or something. Is that something you would agree with?

I think that's just straight, you know, a process of trying to steal your brain or read things that bring you to that state. And I'm not, you know, it could be in a religious context, but it doesn't have to be in a religious context. I mean, there is one level where, you know, the entire world is, you know, is mystical. Jacques seems to have a long-standing interest in esotericism and specifically Rosicrucianism. In the 70s, Jacques named both his independent group of UFO researchers and his seminal book about their learnings, The Invisible College, a reference to Robert Boyle's 17th century group of heretical natural philosophers that eventually became the Royal Society and was

heavily influenced by Rosicrucian ideas. But I think in his mind, UFO research has the potential to heal a long divide created by the Enlightenment. I'm talking about the schism between science or inquiry into the natural world and the spirit, inquiry into the metaphysical. If UFOs and aliens are real, biblical literalism becomes acceptable. Past religious conversions might have just been alien abductions, the wheels of Ezekiel in the Old Testament could have just been UFOs, and the events of the Bible might still be going on today. All of a sudden, inquiry into a repeated scientific observation in the form of UFOs, turns into a metaphysical quest and search for larger meaning.

Not to mention the vast implications here for the teleology and fate of mankind. Do you think that UFOs will become a modern religion? Because I think about the science and the spirit have been bifurcated since the Enlightenment. And you named your group, The Invisible College in the 70s studying, you know, UFOs. and sort of, I know you're interested in Rosicrucianism. Do you think we could re-merge the science and the spirit in the form of UFO-based religion, where it's both science and technology and spirit?

You know, I wrote one of the books, I wrote Messages of Deception and other books, where I went around for a while looking at little UFO religions. You have the science approach where you try to find equations that account for what you can observe. But there is another level, which is, you know, when you go out at night in the desert and you see the galaxy, you know, spread in full of you, you don't think of equations.

I mean, that's not what you think of. You think of, you know, who am I? I mean, what am I doing here? And the reaction can be one of terror, which is why people usually don't want to look at the night sky, or one of just wonder and, you know, fusion with the universe, which is what many of the astronauts have described. On that note, I really appreciate your time. We want. We can talk all day, but I really appreciate it, Jack.

Thanks a lot, man. Thanks for the conversation. That was smart. That was a lot of fun. Yeah.