American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - How the CIA Creates Mind Controlled Assassins

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals!Superpower: Go to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY for $20 off your membership this year. Take the guesswork out of getting healthy in 2026. Get full body testing that goes 5x deeper than an annual physical and a personalized action plan that tells you exactly what to do next. All for just $199. Again, go to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY for $20 off your membership this year.Quo: Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://www.Quo.com/JESSE Our American Alchemist this week is Dr. Colin Ross. Dr. Colin Ross is a psychiatrist whose specialty is dissociative identity disorder. In 1992, he physically traveled to a classified reading room in northern Virginia, passed through keyed submarine doors and secure corridors full of uniformed military personnel, and spent a full day reviewing all 149 MKUltra subprojects. He ordered all 15,000 pages. Then he cross-referenced every named researcher against published medical journals, pulling papers from library shelves one volume at a time in the pre-internet era. The result is CIA Doctors, one of the most thoroughly sourced books on mind control ever written. He also presented new research on human electromagnetic extramission that has implications for medicine, agriculture, and surveillance. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [e-mail] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 4:20 Dr. Colin Ross 6:35 Personal Journey into MKUltra 10:18 The Tuskegee Experiment 13:59 The Birth of Mind Control 17:46 Early Experiments and Hypnotism 20:17 Connections to Lee Harvey Oswald 25:00 Assassinations and MKUltra 30:15 MKUltra Patients 36:17 Epstein and the Elite Network 43:29 Patty Hearst and Psychological Warfare 49:09 Unraveling the RFK Assassination 52:42 John Lennon and Mark David Chapman 57:09 Speculation and the Supernatural 1:00:24 The False Memory Syndrome Foundation 1:02:20 Guantanamo 1:04:56 Candy Jones and Mind Control 1:06:33 Gifted and Talented Education 1:11:27 Intelligence Operations 1:16:51 The Human Energy Field 1:22:15 Electromagnetic Frequencies and Healing 1:26:05 The Future of Electromagnetic Medicine 1:59:22 Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Bad advice. You talking to me? Kayak, got that right. Why would the government program American citizens to murder other American citizens? Well, that's the question. So you have documented a project called MK Ultra and other kind of variations of mind control, creating splits in multiple personalities, couriers and spies, Manchurian candidates, assassinate world leaders. They use whoever they could get their hands on, hypnotizing them, brain electrode implants,

Electric shock, creating the super spy. This stuff is shocking. The U.S. Army released a list of 120-ish different drugs that had been used for mind control testing. 1,500 people times 120 different drugs. It's a lot of people, right? It's a lot of people. When you get into the documents, you find out this guy is connected to this guy, this guy's connected to that guy. It's this whole network.

Lee Harvey Oswald, who's the supposed loan guy, probably wasn't the lone gunman when it comes to assassinating JFK. Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald. So he probably was an MK ultra patient before having shot Lee Harvey Oswald. Who doesn't remember shooting someone? Sir Han, Sirhan, to this day, says that he has no recollection of having shot RFK. What do you remember about shooting if you're willing to talk about that? I was, obviously I was there, but I don't remember the exact moment.

I don't remember pulling my gun. And you have a guy like McVeigh, who's an MKLTRA patient. Manson, who's an MKLTRA patient. These people are committing horrific acts. You think that my mind is like your mind, but it isn't. This is really creepy. I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein. The thing is, it's not just some crazy conspiracy theory.

It's actually possible. Can I give you my crazy Epstein MKLtra theory? Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't. Okay. As you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with, whether they're physicists, intelligence officers, people who've worked inside black programs, are operating at a really impressive level mentally. Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings. Often their work takes a toll, and a lot of them track their health obsessively. Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers, often things that most people never look at.

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Head to Superpower.com and use Code Alchemy at checkout for $20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them, so please make sure to mention American Alchemy to support the show. I'm here with Dr. Colin Ross, who blew my mind with just a really kind of bombshell crazy book. It's called CIA Doctors. I brought you a copy, actually. Thank you. And, well, here's my copy.

Oh, there's your other copy. Amazing. Well, thanks. I'd love a second, and I'd love to hand as many of these out as possible to as many people as as, you know, I can because... I guess it's over a million on good. Okay, perfect. Yeah, just give me an affiliate fee.

But truly, this stuff is shocking. You have documented the kind of medical malpractice of a whole host of psychiatrists who are either officially or unofficially associated, often with CIA and projects called MK Ultra in a lot of the derivatives. and sub compartments and other kind of variations of that, mind control largely. And it talks about dissociating personalities,

creating splits and multiple personalities so that you can send couriers and spies, create Manchurian candidates, assassinate world leaders. It is mind-blowing, and it's jarring to say the least. Well, and the thing is, so I'll give you the background, personal background a little bit. So I grew up in Canada, medical school, psychiatry training, worked in Canada for well, and then moved here equals Texas in 91 to a, my specialty is multiple personality equals dissociative identity disorder.

And so I was in a program there at a hospital up in Plano. And two or three months in, one of the patients who had multiple personalities comes up with this little sheath of papers and all paranoid and scary. and hands them to me, and I don't want these to take these. And I look at them and I go, hmm, M.K. Ultra, first I've heard of that. That's how I got into it by this woman handing me this pile of papers. Otherwise, wasn't interested in all about it. I thought the search for the Manchurian candidate was some kind of movie or something, but it wasn't really sure.

Yeah, and it is a movie. It's, I think, 1961, Frank Sinatra. And it discusses the creation of this. assassin essentially post-Korean war that Manchuria is this northeastern part of China. And it's based on a book from the 50s. There you go. So fiction, Hollywood, entertaining, end of story. So what I did was I read a couple of books that existed.

There was no published mainstream journal type papers. And then I was down in Northern Virginia for a conference in 92. and I corresponded with the CIA, which was like pre-Internet back in the era. And they gave me an address to come to to read the MKLchard papers. So I'm at the conference hotel. This is just sort of a crazy side story in itself. Walk out, get in a taxi. And it turns out the taxi driver is telling me his story of he was a police officer in Afghanistan

before he moved to the United States. I wonder if this is a quick. incident that this guy is driving me. And then he goes, would you like to go through the grounds of the Pentagon on the way? Oh, sure. Okay. And then he says, well, what are you, where are you going? What are you doing? Oh, I'm just going to meet with some people. Drops me off at this building that's very nondescript. You can't tell what it is. And I walk in there. And I'm a civilian guy has nothing to do with the military. And there's a whole bunch of military guys in uniform.

One sign says, secure line, DIA only. Another one is secure line, CIA only. I walk up to the desk. Hi, I'm here to read some documents, and the guy gives me a look like, oh, here's one of these guys here. Sign in, and the woman comes down after 10 minutes, maybe.

Get in the little jammed elevator with a bunch of guys in uniform. a bunch of guys who I don't know who they are, go up to fifth floor, seven the floor, whatever it was, get off, walk down the corridor, and there's like a submarine door where she has to key code in,

and then another door, and then we're in a small office and a sign of piece of paper, walk over here through another one of those doors, into a room where there's a cart with all the 149 MCLTRA projects there. and 15,000 pages of documents had to read them all, which took a while. Thank God you did all this, because it's a really comprehensive book, and it clearly touches kind of

close to the metal as far as what actually transpired and what went on. And if you really want to kind of understand what these psychiatrists were doing, how they were communicating with, you know, CIA, this book is great. So just real quick for the audience, you give a little context as to how you got into this topic. What's your day job? Psychiatrist. Okay. And you have no affiliation with MK Ultra, I assume.

Uh-uh. Okay. No. Of course, people go, oh, yeah, that's what he says. I'm just a civilian guy. Okay. So I know lots about all these documented facts. Yeah.

And I have this pile of documents. But I don't have any insider knowledge about stuff currently at all. Okay. Which is kind of disappointing in the way. Yeah, well, the trail goes dark in 1975 with the Church Commission where all this malfeasance, you know, in the CIA, not just mind control stuff, was investigated and there was this kind of large reform. Let's go back to the very beginning of cowboy intelligence interventionism in the human body. So I want to talk about, you know. I'm talking China 3,000 BC.

No, no, at least in the American context. Thanks. So let's talk about the Tuskegee experiment because that, for people who are in their minds, they're like, how could the government ever do something like this? It just seems so horrific and beyond what they would ever do. I think this is a really good jumping off point. That's why there's a chapter in the book about Tuskegee. So one of the skeptical things is you could never do all that stuff and keep it secret.

And if it was known, it would get shut down. So Tuskegee, which is a town in the southern United States, 1932, the public health service was the organizing entity. Surgeon General signed off on it. All these top medical people were aware. And I've got a one of the papers I copied is called Side Effects of Syphilis in the Male Negro is the title of the paper. So give people context on just high level what happened because it's so shocking. They recruited 400 black, rural, mostly literate guys who had syphilis and then prevented them from getting treatment all the way until it was shut down in 1972 because a reporter blue whistle on it. So it was studying the effects of untreated syphilis.

And the astounding medical discovery was people would get sick and die earlier. That's all they learned. Shocker. Pretty crazy. So you have that, obviously, occurring. You have early radiation experiments. You know, how does radiation interact with the physical body? He's all documented, 100%.

And there's all kinds of, like, on the edge things I've heard, I suspect, but right now we're just 100% documented. So Clinton had a report in the late 90s on radiation experiments, like pretty thick. couple inches thick. And in there, it describes a whole bunch of stuff, including, I think it was 7. HP7 was his name, which means human product 7.

This is guys that they did radiation experiments on. And this is in one of the Harvard hospitals in Boston. He comes into the ER unconscious in a coma. They inject him with plutonium. And he dies without ever waking up, Not from the potom, just whatever happened with him. So they're just, how does it go through his kidneys? How is it excreted?

They're studying that. Jesus Christ. So if the guy arrived in a coma, I'm guessing he didn't give informed consent, right? Okay, so let's get to MK Ultra or just mind control generally. When did the idea of mind control cross the minds of American leadership? What's documented is in the Second World War, the, because people don't. been manipulated and controlling people forever, right? So just making it government-organized, sophisticated, scientific doctors involved, that's at least in the Second World War.

So in 1941 or two, all this intelligence agencies, which are kind of scattered all over the place in the U.S. were brought under the umbrella of the Office of Strategic Services, which is the OSS. and then the OSS was disbanded at the end of the war. And then in 1947, the CIA was created, and a lot of the OSS guys just moved over there. So there's a guy named G.H. Esther Brooks, who's a chapter in the book, Colgate College, upstate New York. He published a book in 1943 on hypnotism

in a paper in 1971 or two in, in a magazine describing creating the super spy. And I have copies of his contract with the war department back in 43 or so, him corresponding with MK Ultra, top secret cleared contractors, inviting them to Colgate College, corresponding with them, co-publishing with some of them, giving talks on the super spy at U.S. Army conferences, inviting the number two or three guy and the FBI to Colgate College to a conference

and corresponding back and forth with Jay Edgar Hoover from 30s to 60s, I think it was. This is all totally documented. So he doesn't describe his methods very much, but he says he gets a susceptible guy. This is all in the published material. puts him through some sort of conditioning, which he doesn't really describe in any detail. And then he describes,

which is also in the MK Ultra documents, he describes a hypnotic code word that's implanted, which was the moon is clear. So he brings this army guy in, or he assigns it to the colonel. The colonel brings in this army guy, gives him an assignment to take some courier materials over to Tokyo. And then says, the moon is clear.

Outcomes the artificially created identity, created by Esther Brooks, gives them whatever the information is, sends the guy over to Tokyo. The officer on the far end says, oh, thanks for the documents, the moon is clear. The secret message is transmitted.

Response is implanted. Switch back to the regular guy. He goes back home. This is explicit, clear detail, this is described. And then in the CI created in 47, Bluebird and Artichoke were the precursors of agriculture, which started in 1950. And in those documents, it describes experiments where they use secretaries and whoever they can get their hands on, hypnotizing them, getting them to do tasks and assignments, and then having amnesia for that. This is all described in great detail.

So the idea is if you could compartmentalize a person from an aspect of themselves, you can get that compartmentalized aspect to do whatever you want. Right. And you can create a trigger to move somebody from their normal generic personality into this kind of, you know, secret courier person. And in the documents, it describes words, verbal trigger, touch in the venture and can. it's a book and movie, it's a playing card. Mm-hmm. So it can be anything that becomes a trigger. Yeah.

Okay, so you have Bluebird, you have Artichoke. Then we got M. Keltra, which then runs into the early 60s. Mm-hmm. That's rolled over to MK Search, which runs into the early 70s. What is MK? There's speculation about that, but I don't know for sure. Some people think it's mind control. But why MK?

Why K? So you can sound scary in German. Oh, control. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, that's weird. And what were some of the earliest experiments that even, like, tipped U.S. Intel officials off that this was even possible? In the documents that I have, the G.H. Estabrooks, you know, pitched his expertise to the CIA early in the 50s. Yeah, I read this book called The Controllers by Martin Cannon. And he talks about Esther Brooks bragging about this sort of thing. So, okay, fascinating. He clearly liked to brag.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who in the American government and Intel community kind of championed this idea at the time, kind of post-World War II, that we should be experimenting with this? Well, the director of the CIA signed Bluebird into operation in April, 1952, three months before the Korean War started in June. And then the disinformation cover story was, oh, we were just reacting to what the communist Chinese were doing. But it was already in place, offensive and defensive, before the Korean War started. So the directors of the CIA were all, you know, knew what was going on. The top guy was Sidney Gottlieb for M.K. Ultra, who's an interesting character in and of itself. And so he was kind of the organizer, main character.

Forget the year, 50-something. There's a guy in Fort Detrick in the Chemical Warfare Division named Frank Olson, and he was starting to have a little problem with his conscience and was kind of maybe going to become a whistleblower. So Cindy Gottlie invited him to a party somewhere outside the Washington, D.C. area, and he was given a dose of LSD in Quent Throw liqueur. And then he had sort of a bad trip, but that in itself is a cover story, because the story was as a result of being mentally ill. They didn't mention the LSD.

He jumped out of a hotel window, the Stattler Hotel, the 10th floor, and died. But actually, Harold Abranson, who's involved in M. Kaltcher, who's a doctor, was involved in the story, And there's a guy named Pierre Lafitte, who had literally like 20 aliases, which are all listed in a book. The last name of one of his aliases was Heidel. Alex Heidel was Lee Harvey Oswald's alias. What? And Lee Harvey Oswald and Pierre Lafitte both worked at the Riley Coffee Company in the same period, 60 to 63. So this is all some...

He's got way above something. So you think Lee Harvey Oswald could have been an M.K. Ultra patient? Very well. Easily could have been. Whoa. Wait, so just... I don't know that he was, but he very easily could have been. So let's back up.

So Frank Olson is working on biological warfare at Fort Detrick as part of M.K. Naomi. He was pushed out of the hotel. Pushed out of the hotel window. By Pierre Lafitte. I believe Frank Olson's son is named Eric Olson. And he investigated this and realized the window was actually too small for him to... He couldn't have done.

jumped out of this thing. You must have been pushed. The family just bought the story. But then they read one paragraph in a Rockefeller Commission report, 73 or somewhere in there, describing exactly what happened to their dad saying that he was dosed with LSD. So that's how they got on it, got lawyers. And there's a photograph of the family in the Oval Office of the White House with the president giving them the $700,000 dollar company. compensation check.

Jesus Christ. So it was all blown wide open. Yeah. And Sidney Gottlie, on record, you know, there's a great biography of him called Poisoner in Chief. Right. And he's known as kind of almost the U.S. version of Joseph Mangola. And like just kind of cowboy border science, like, you know, human subjects testing.

He was head of the technical staff services for the CIA. Technical services division. Technical services division. Sorry, TSD. What was, there was also TSS, though, I believe. Anyways. Yeah. I think it was the same thing with a different name.

Okay, okay. So, okay, but I want to, I don't want to let up on this Lee Harvey Oswald, who's the supposed the lone gunman, who now everybody kind of knows probably wasn't the lone gunman when it comes to assassinating JFK in November of 1963. I have a document that's part of the Lubeard Artichoke papers, I think, but one of those, there's multiple programs, Project Offen, Brought M.K. Naomi. There's like five or six of them all parallel. The document is one intelligence officer writing to another intelligence officer that after 63,

or no, before 63, that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother has gotten in contact with the guy because Lee Harvey Oswald's mother is concerned that somebody's been impersonating him in Europe. There's a bunch of suspicious stuff going on. And then the other main suspicious thing about the story is, okay, so Marine guy defects to Russia, and then we just let him back in and don't put him under surveillance or in the story. Nothing to see here. Well, then he goes and works at 544 Camp Street in New Orleans,

and the guy who owns that building is an FBI investigator named Guy Bannister. Right. So that's strange. And I believe he was implicated in he, Lee R.V. Oswald, like, had the gun of, he almost assassinated somebody six months earlier or something. Right. But he was such a lousy shot that he didn't kill the guy.

Yeah. And the gun. He's a military guy, you know, Walker. Yeah, Walker, right. Yeah, there's so much off about that whole story. And then he gets a job at the Texas book Depository. and the woman who owns that, or the woman who he's, like, living with is Ruth Payne.

And she's very close with Mary Baincroft, who's Alan Dulles' mistress. Alan Dulles is the director of the CIA. So there's so many. Ruth Paine is very tied in. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. And then the guy who owns the Texas Bird Depository

is a guy named Harold Bird. Oh, yeah. And he was, I think, related to Richard Bird who did Operation High Jump, who's headed towards, you know, Antarctica and might have ran into like flying saucers. It's sort of weird lore around that. But Harold Bird won, you know,

some award for the Civil Air Corps from Curtis LeMay. And I believe was the Bird family was close with LBJ as well. And there are, you know, reasons to believe that LBJ might have had something to do with the assassination of JFK, obviously. He was a ruthlessly political guy. So that's the sort of politics conspiracy side of things. It's the same thing when you get into the documents. You find out documented documents.

This guy is connected to this guy. This guy's connected to that guy. It's this whole network. It's not just two guys in an office running the show. Let's set the landscape as far as what are the modalities they are testing. So clearly, hypnotism is one of them. Is there like electroshocking, right? That's like...

There's all kinds of stuff. Brain electrode implants. Okay. Electric shock, a whole bunch of different drugs, classical sensor deprivation, isolation. Basically, they just kind of like threw everything at the wall to see what would stick. Yeah. It's very, I was going to say, helter-skelter, it's probably not a good choice of term for this. So in 75 or 6 at committee hearings, the general counsel for the U.S. Army released a list.

of 120-ish different drugs that had been used for mind control testing by the Army. And they admitted to 1,500 LSD subjects. And there's videos of those online still. And sometimes it seems like they're admitting to 4,000. But if we do 1,500 people times 120 different drugs, it's a lot of people, right? It's a lot of people. That's pretty egregious.

What did they discover worked of all of those modalities, where they're things that worked better than others, where there are different use cases for the different modalities? So on a mentoring candidate, they just poo-pooed that totally. Yeah, it's not possible. We can't do that. We never used those people.

Yeah. Which is just straight-up lie. It's just a straight-up lie. And we'll get into some examples that kind of prove that that's a straight-up lie. Well, why don't we just get into that? So what, what's a good thing? example of somebody becoming a Manchurian candidate. Well, we, uh, and Manchurian candidate is, is a compartmentalized, trained assassin, that you could

trigger somebody to become an assassin. Why are they called Manchurian candidates? So there's another document in the, uh, files there where a CIA officer writing to another CI officer says he can, he's concerned about reports, this Korean war stuff, that, um, a group of GIs going through a zone in Manchuria were captured and hypnosis was used on them. That's the plot of the Manchurin candidate in CIA documents before the book was written or published. It's not just pulled out of nowhere. My take on all this in terms of the politics and the ethics is the CIA military would be

negligent and guilty of dereliction of duty if they didn't look into this, didn't have expertise, Because obviously, these kind of people are being run at us by terrorists, foreign intelligence agencies. So give me some of the early psychiatrists that were kind of pioneering these methods. So again, this is all documents for sure. Within MKLcher, which is the same in other programs, there's kind of three categories of projects. There's 149 of them total. A third of them are just straightforward sort of chemical procurement. industrial contracts.

A third of them, the investigator, who's some professor somewhere, is unwitting, means he doesn't know it's CIA money because it's funneled through a front organization, which they called a cutout. And then a third of them roughly are cleared at top secret. They know it's CIA money. So two top secret cleared guys were Martin Orne and Jolly West. So Martin Orne being, and it says in the documents, the purpose of the project and says the amount of money.

on in the year, the purpose was studying hypnotic and dissociative states. So for sure they were working on that. And Martin Orne was aware of J. H. Esther Brooks and back and forth. So Jolly West is famous for several different things. One is killing an elephant at Oklahoma City Zoo with a dose of LSD. He also was sort of involved in the UCLA violence. project, which was when Reagan was the governor, the idea there was to implant electrodes in prisoners' brains, and then when they were released, sex offenders, track them, and if they

go outside the allowed perimeter, send them a signal and paralyze them temporarily. And that was shut down before it got started, but Louis Jolian West was involved in that. he interviewed Timothy McVeigh The Oklahoma City Bomber So here's Oklahoma City Bomber Louis Jolian West is over in L.A. There's lots of psychiatrists everywhere

By random chance they had Louis Jolian West come and interview Timothy McVeigh Why do you think he interviewed the Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh? Legend has it that In 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia experiment, and it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls.

Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. And you know who was leading the whole project? My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor, Thomas Townsend Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year, due to the very poor communication among the team members. You know what that sounds like.

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This is all, this is not conspiracy theory. This is facts that I got out of, you know, public domain. Was he, did he have any criminal background? Where do you think he was implanted with this thing? Like, was he at UCLA? Because Jolly West was obviously head of psychiatry at UCLA. Was he, was there any connections between him and Jolly before the bombing? Not that I know of.

But they removed. But it wouldn't have to be him. I mean, it could be, there's lots of people in the military, right? They removed a computer chip from his butt. It's fucking weird. Which means they know exactly where he was every minute or every day, up to the time of the bombing. So the, and then you hear things like Charles Manson, responsible for the most famous murders, the Tate La Bianca murders. Sharon Tate, famous actress at the apex of her career,

murdered in cold blood while pregnant with Roman Polanski's, I don't know, son or daughter, but, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, it was, like, the anniversary of the Manson murders. He was just going to do an article. And then he met Vincent Bugliosi, who was the lead prosecutor on the case who wrote the book Helter Skelter and realized, oh my God, this narrative is entirely off. It's all cover story. It's all a cover story and realized that Manson in 1967 was going in consistently to the Hayd Ashbury Free Medical Clinic in San Francisco. Oh, you mean the one that Louis Jolly and West was at? Exactly. And Jolly West had an office there. Yeah, yeah, you do. And then you have this like transformation of this.

guy from this petty criminal who's being caught and released to this like sex god cult leader musician, you know, in L.A. who's like living with one of the beach boys. It's just this like, you know, day and night sort of thing. So I guess the meta question here is if you have a guy like Manson who's an M.K. Ultra Patient. And then you have a guy like McVeigh who's an MK. Ultra Patient. these people are committing horrific acts, why would the government, like the CIA, like a guy who had top secret clearance or the CIA, Jolly West,

or any of these people program American citizens to murder other American citizens? Well, that's the question. So probably because their ethics are a little off, number one. Yeah. But we don't know. It could be that Jolly West was just,

sort of a secondary character of the show, because he's not going to be the only Manchurian candidate creator on the planet. Can you create a chain of Manchurian candidates?

So this is really creepy. But what if the psychiatrist themselves is a Manchurian candidate and they are doing treatments that they're not even aware of to their patients? I'd advise not going to that psychiatrist. I know, but how does anybody know?

I mean, you document all these people who are cutouts and not even like, you know, connected explicitly. And then what if they're themselves compartmentalized? So, as I always say, we know the tiny tip of the iceberg. The stuff, the whole iceberg is just who knows what's going on down there. It's exactly like the Epstein story, right? Yeah. So we know he exists.

We know he's a trafficker. And we know he supposedly killed himself. He either killed himself or was murdered in jail. who also been prosecuted, him and his girlfriend. That's it in the United States. Just his girlfriend. Who's gotten the heat? Now Prince Andrew.

Yeah, some expendable foreign guy. Yeah. None of the people who actually committed the crimes. And then all of the people in the documents all happen to not go to the, not commit any crimes. You know, most of them say we didn't go to the island. It's preposterous. It's absolutely preposterous. Okay, I have a crazy question about him.

Do you think he was an MK Ultra patient? I have no idea, but the thing is it's not just like some crazy conspiracy theory. It's actually realistically possible that any and a whole bunch of these guys were. Can I give you my crazy Epstein MK Ultra theory? Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't. Okay. So, Manson, if you look at. look at who he modeled his life off of.

It was Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein, this like 1968 or nine bestseller sci-fi book. I believe he calls his son, Don Michael Valentine, who was like the lead character in the book. And he even calls his parole officer, a guy named Roger Smith, I believe. He calls him Jubal. Jubal Harshah was this protector character in this book. Manson...

I sent you an email. I don't know if you saw it. Oh, I don't. You know the TV show FBI? Oh, you did? Yeah, what was this again? So it's a fiction about FBI and I'm always getting the bad guys. And there's the woman who's sort of like the head,

but the actual operational guy who's always, you know, checking stuff and looking on the screen and assigning people to go here and there. His name is Jubal Valentine. Well, there you go. A mashup of two names in Stranger of a Strange Land. It's not random. That's not random. him clearly. So whether it's just some screenwriter with a sense of humor who read that kind of

stuff or... Well, this is where it gets really creepy. I'm like, do you think that LSD was given to Manson or he was dosed up made to be extremely impressionable? We know that on record at the time there was a program called Operation Midnight Climax where... Actually, it's a subproject within Amphaltera. Operation Midnight Climax is sort of an informal name for it. But it existed. So it existed, and they were dosing up hippies off the street and Hade Ashbury, putting them behind a, you know, a one-way mirror and then viewing them, you know, with prostitutes and stuff, how they'd behave. So here's a wrinkle on that story.

So that was mostly in San Francisco, a little bit in New York. The guy who was sort of running that was a former, whatever the DEA was called before. I can't remember the name of it. before it was called the DEA. So he was involved in various things that had to do with intelligence. So he was running it. And he's quoted as saying his name was George White,

something along the lines of, where else could a good American boy rape, mortar, and kill with impunity? Jesus Christ. That's what he said in public. That was the head of the equivalent of the DEA at the time, the drug enforcement agents. He was the head of operation,

in the midnight climax. I know, but then he became the head of the DEA. It's not a low level. So none of these guys, the same with the psychiatrist. They're not just some, you know, off-the-grid person in the basement somewhere. These are top psychiatrists, top government people, top secret cleared. So creepy. Okay, so here's my question.

Okay. If they're doing stuff like that, what I think is, if you have a guy who's, is illiterate who's modeling his life off the book. He can't read the book, but the book becomes the template for his life, Stranger in a Strange Land, Charles Manson. He was probably read the book while dosed up on LSD or ketamine or something. Could be. I don't know, speculating. But if that's the case, I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein, because Epstein started at Dalton School, which was, you know, prep school in New York for no apparent reason, wasn't qualified to work there.

You jump from nowhere to 300 million in a blink. Yeah. Well, that, so that was Dalton and then Bear Stern and all the other stuff. But even Dalton, you know, I think he was engaging in underage, you know, relations with his students at the time. Right. Was unqualified for that job, was like this street kid and gets the job there. I believe the guy who gives him a job was a guy named Donald Barr.

And Donald Barr was a former highly cleared Navy guy. And he wrote a book called Space Relations. And it's all about using underage sex as compromise. But it's about this like, you know, this guy that is, you know, going to another planet and then ends up being groomed by this other woman. And the woman almost could be like Galane or like, you know, like one of his handlers or something. So you have another case where it's like his life seemed to be modeled off the book. Right. And so I wonder if there was some sort of like weird screening.

of, you know, or made, you know, he was made to be very impressionable. And then he was, you know, this, this book was somehow the model or template for his life. Here's where it gets even crazier. Donald Barr's son is William Barr. William Barr was the attorney general under Trump and under Bush 41. Under Trump, when Epstein got arrested. And as the acting attorney general, he went and visited Epstein's jail cell and met with his cellmate. this guy, Afrain Stone Reyes, who mysteriously died six months later, what an acting attorney general ever visits the jail cell of, you know, a random person who's committed a crime? That's crazy. But here's where it gets crazier. Bill Barr was the CIA intern in 1974, 1975 around the church committee. He was a Senate CIA intern. Cool it. So as far as like obstructing justice and possibly deleting records, you know, around MK Ultra, like that would be the perfect place to do it. The story on MK Ultra records is they were all destroyed by Richard Helms and Sydney Gottlieb. But they somehow found seven boxes of documents in a storage facility somewhere. And then those are the documents that got released eventually. So that's called a limited hangout.

That's actually the CIA's term, which is you let a little bit of information out, cover up the greater information. It's a standard operating strategy. So I wonder if Bill Barr was like covering up for his dad's, you know, horrible. This is crazy speculation. Right. I'm speculating. I have no idea.

But it's a weird fact pattern. Have you ever heard of a woman named Patty Hurst? William Randolphurst's daughter who was kidnapped by the Simbionese Liberation Army Tell me this story So William Randolph-Hurst for people that don't know is the model for Orson Welles citizen Kane He is the premier

Kind of publisher of You know the biggest newspapers San Francisco Chronicle and stuff In the U.S. and specifically California Right This connects into Jim Jones and John Lones Town as well. Okay. So Patty Hurst's boyfriend, whose name I just forget now, he was observed, and it was reported in public domain, on site at the People's Temple location in Yucaya, California,

before they moved to South America. Then Donald DeFries, who was a petty criminal, same thing, couldn't read a book. He was transferred within the prison system to a new location where he walked out of the prison into the public. And then a psychological warfare expert with the Army in the Vietnam War came over under cover of the Black Cultural Association, met with him repeatedly, gave him his code name of C-I-N-Q-E-5. And then, lo and behold, he kidnaps Patty Hurst.

So the story is that the Simbienese Liberation Army came into the apartment of Patty Hurst and the boyfriend, knocked the boyfriend out, so he's just an innocent bystander, who happened to be at Jim Jones three months earlier. and then they take Patty Hurst and they terrorize her, sensory deprivation, sensory isolation, hold her in a closet for weeks on end. She now has a new identity, Tanya, who participates in a bank robbery. Jesus! She's convicted, and then at trial, the people testifying that she's been mind-controlled include Louis Jolly and West.

It's just like everything's so interwoven and interconnected. So weird. And then she gets pardoned by can't remember which president. No, Jolly West is like this bizarre figure who, he's like Forrest Gump or something, he pops up in all these places like hiding the truth. Like he, you know, he saw Jack Ruby. So Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald and he sees him in his cell, right? For, what was it, 24 hours or something?

Right. he comes out, does a press conference, says Jack Ruby's gone crazy. And literally, that was the breaking point. Actually, he, according to West, shot Oswald while having an epileptic seizure. What? That's what he said. Because he didn't remember having killed

Lee Harvey Oswald, right? So he probably was an MK Ultra patient before having shot Learvi Oswald. Who doesn't remember shooting somebody? Sir on, sir on. We're just jumping around here. So that's the... But he's claimed amnesia for that all the way long. So the guy that killed the supposed but not really lone gunman of JFK, MKL ultra patient,

and then the guy that killed JFK's brother, RFK, was a famous presidential candidate, attorney general under JFK, he was also probably an MK ultra patient who I think is still alive. And to this day does not say that he has no recollectual. of having shot RFK, Robert F. Kennedy. Yep. So crazy. One of the, I can't remember the title of the book, but one of the RFK very well-researched books, there's a photograph of the Los Angeles County corner with a ruler, and he's measuring

and counting the bullet entry holes because he knows another person got hit, RFK got hit, and there's a certain number of, in the door jams and the walls. Those add up to more than the chambers in the supposed lone shooters gun. I, yeah, that's right. And I believe it was the same coroner who saw JFK, who wasn't happy about the treatment of JFK's body before he examined it and thought there was some malfeasance there. And I think it was a lot of gunshots specifically from the back in RFK's case. And, yeah. Just supposed shooters, four, five, six feet in front.

That's right, sir, hands, your hand. was close range from behind. That's right. And I believe Robert F. Kennedy, because I think he was like giving a speech or something, falls back and grabs this guy behind him and falls down on this guy. That guy was a Lockheed skunkwork, spotty guard named Eugene Thane Caesar. Oh, man. And I believe if you asked Robert F. Kennedy, who's obviously now, you know,

Health and Human Services Secretary, right. He will say, I think Eugene Thane Caesar, that Lockheed security guard, killed my father. He would say that or he has to him? He would say that. He would say that. I think he believes that. And why? I'm not doubting you, but why do you think that's what he believes?

He must have said something. Oh, I believe he, no, I'm saying I believe that he has publicly said this. He's public said it. A 24-year-old Palestinian man named Saran Saran, shot him with a 22-calibre revolver. He was hit three times. five other people were wounded as well. Well, I didn't, first of all, I would dispute that description of what happened. Okay.

I don't believe that Sir Hans' bullets ever hit my father. He was shot from behind by somebody who was standing behind him with a gun pressed between the two of him and firing. And that man was almost certainly Eugene Fane, Cesar, who was a security guard who had been hired the day before. So pretty wild. And I think he thinks it was all done at the behest of this guy, Bob Mayhew, who was the general counsel for Howard Hughes or like the right-hand man for Howard Hughes. And it's all just so spooky. You have all these guys who were tied in with the 54-12 commission at the time, this sort of interagency coordination group that I think originally starts out for, you know, if the government, if the president wants to do some spooky covert. action. It's plausible deniability for him. It's interagency coordination. And it turns into this sort of runaway, you know, deep state faction that just, you know, has its own aims. Really runaway or not really? There's always a question, right? That's the other question. Yeah,

you call it runaway, but maybe it is always plausible deniability for the president. Who knows? I mean, you do have this famous speech, obviously Eisenhower gives, beware of the military industrial complex. And you have to wonder if he was referring to groups like that. But, Okay, so we're just knocking them down as far as sacred cow assassinations, and they just all seem to be related to M.K. Ultra. You know, one person that people wonder about all the time, not in the kind of political realm, but in the cultural realm, is the icon John Lennon, you know, the lead singer of the Beatles, who was this obviously counterculture hero was probably viewed as a threat, you know, by J Edgar Hoover and other people. Well, those guys are definitely unhappy about him. That's known. So, so tell me about his killer and was he possibly an MK. Ultrapatian?

I don't know about who controlled him, but he was, you know, sort of like a low-level guy without a whole ton of money, took off on a world tour. What's his name? Mark David Chapman. Mark David Chapman. He was in a psych hospital in Hawaii for a while. He comes back And there's I can't remember the name of the biography

But in the biography of him In great detail It describes He had a whole bunch of people Inside his head Robert was the head guy I mean he had MPDD ID

By description For sure If that's all accurate The MPD for the audience Multiple Personality Disorder Which was renamed Dissociation identity disorder at 94.

Did one of the personalities was it saying you have to kill John Lennon? That part's not known. So why do we think that he possibly was M.K. Ultrid and not just like, you know, M.P.M., you know, multiple personality disorder you might associate with some sort of generic mental illness or something. Maybe, could be, don't know for sure. Okay. So hard to say there.

But it's not just wild out of nowhere, theorize it. It's realistically possible that he could have been handled. Well, is there anything else, any other evidence besides just having multiple personality disorder? Let's see. What's the, um, because I think an example, all these details are so many of them. What's the book that was published in the 50s? There was a trigger for him.

Oh, Catcher in the Rye. Catcher in the Rye. Yeah, yeah, J.D. Salinger. Yeah. Yeah. So he went to a bookstore and got that book, which maybe was, the trigger before doing the shooting. Oh, interesting.

Like, the book triggered. Oh, Jesus. Maybe. No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks co-pilot in Microsoft Excel

to look at his sales and costs. To help him see if he can afford it. Co-pilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now, Hank has all. line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Co-Pilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365 copilot.com slash work. That is wild. Well, I think Sir Han, sir-Han, going back to the Robert F. Kennedy thing, I believe he was writing in his diary at the time, like must kill RFK or something. Like he had this sort of,

like it was like he had been programmed. You can't, I've looked at that in the different books. you can't tell is it just psychotic rambling, obsessing, or is it programming? And he also, like, didn't, he had, like, memory lapses, right? Like, didn't he have some, like... He was traumatized in the Middle East as a kid. Because there's a lot of war going on.

His apartment was bombed, and he saw some dismembered bodies and stuff. So he has a trauma foundation for being a dissociative guy. Speaking of trauma foundation, you read some of these Epstein files and you start to go beyond this is just sick, you know, pedophile, elite, powerful people fulfilling their bizarre fantasies

and into a territory of their systematically conditioning some of these young people and creating what you called the trauma foundation so that these people are susceptible and impressionable to future sort of manipulation. Do you think there was some sort of undercurrent there with the Epstein then? Well, first of all, it's a bunch of sex offender guys. There's huge financial part to it.

Sex trafficking. I mean, that's a multi-billion dollar industry, right? So there's their own personal, sexual whatever. There's the money. There's the scoring points with the other guys and being high ranking in that subculture. And then who knows what else? Pretty bizarre, man. It's a weird world.

You read that stuff and you're like, oh my God. Like it really, not only does it sort of vindicate the super conspiracy theorists, like people who believed in Pizza Gate because it looks like jerky and hot dog, like these foods were like code words for children and stuff. It was just gross. Not only is it vindication for that, but it's vindication for people who I think view. like the world more metaphysically and thought elite power structures weren't just vying for power, but maybe we're doing the bidding of some like evil entities above them.

Like what would drive anybody to do these sorts of things? You know, it's like I think Les Wexner, who was Epstein's like one of his closest associates. And I think, you know, he like provided him with a house in Ohio and stuff. And like, you know. Piles of money. Yeah, piles of money. he was the Victoria Secret founder and CEO. So do we think this guy has access to women?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, there you go. And then, but also, I believe in the 80s or 90s, Les Wexner's writing in his diary, and he's talking about being haunted by a divok. And a dibuk is, I think in Hebrew, it means demon. Oh. And so you get into these weird territory where it's like, you're not even doing this

for your own six. artistic, twisted, you know, pleasure. You're doing this because you're doing the bidding of some higher, you know, even more evil thing. Well, now we're definitely outside the documents. Yeah, yeah, we are. We're outside regular psychiatry. Yes. So, but now you're into supernatural, multidimensional entities, which then takes us into aliens.

Sure. Who knows? I don't pretend to know the answers to all this stuff. Well, speaking of supernatural entities. I know you're not interested in aliens at all. Not at all. It's not, yeah, who cares? You know, maybe we'll get to that at some point.

But no, it's funny. One of the people you mention in the documents, as far as, you know, psychiatrists deeply implicated in M.K. Ultra is a guy named Michael Persinger. And do you know about his God helmet, the Persinger God helmet? So tell us about that. Well, there's Martin Orr and Jolly West were on the board of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. that was formed in 1992. And there's, if you ever watched a movie called Star Wars,

there's the light in the dark, right? Universal themes. Yes. So in 1980 comprehensive textbook of psychiatry that I studied, it's like the Bible of psychiatry, three volumes, it's like literally this thick. Way at the back of volume two, there's a small section called Topics of Specialty.

interest, which is irrelevant stuff that we thought we'd throw in way at the back, and a chapter called Incest, which is not a relevant topic in psychiatry. In that chapter, there's a reference to a 1955 study saying that incest occurs in one family out of a million in North America. Those were the medical facts in 1980. So there's been massive cover-up of childhood trauma, childhood sexual abuse, sexual harassment, been on a rape. There was no rape crisis centers around.

It was all completely irrelevant to the mental health of the population. Is the implication of these psychiatrists who are causing trauma being on this false memory foundation? Is it like they're gaslighting the people that they've traumatized by saying their false memories? Or like, what's the...

Well, I think it's... This is no speculation, too. I'm going to speculate if you don't mind. Sure. I know you don't like speculation. I love speculating. Hello. Oh, I misread that. It's hard to tell. So I think there's, if you look at the people on the board and the people have been active in the false memory, what was that organization trying to do? For sure, for a fact, publicly stated, get rid of multiple personality. Nobody's diagnosing it. Nobody's treating it, discredit it, ridicule it, shut it down. So what were their motives? It wasn't just one thing.

So there's a bunch of people who are sort of memory experts, and it doesn't fit with their model of memory that you can induce amnesia or even have amnesia just on your own as part of PTSD. So they don't like that, so they want to shut that down. Then there's, I think, a group of people who actually were mistakenly falsely accused of incest. So they want some organization to help them out. Then there's people who were actually incest perpetrators. They need a defense, so it's all false memories.

And then there's a group of people who just think that's a whole bunch of stupid Freudian theory, and we've grown past that, and we want to shut down all that nonsense. And then there's Jolly West Martin Orne, their motive being to cover up the mentoring candidate programs, because therapists are starting to tune into multiple personalities, which didn't exist back in the day hardly. and we're just starting to hear stories of I was taken to a military base, I was taken to a lab,

I was spun around physically, did things with goggles, all kinds of experimental stuff to create alter personalities. So this is leaking out into public. So that better get shut down. Jesus. So there's multiple motives there.

You said spun around and disoriented? Yeah, it's all, what do you if you go to abu grabe or guantanamo bay where we've all been by looking at photos right what do you see being done torture food deprivation sensory deprivation isolation hooding sitting in forced postures for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours at ab of grave um being forced to naked do sex stuff with other male uh uh uh Muslim guys with a female U.S. officer watching, mock dog attacks, electric shock. There's photographs of all this stuff, and insulting the religion and stomping,

literally physically stomping on and destroying the Quran. Why would, I mean, but doing that to our, it's horrible to do that to anyone. Right. Doing that to our own citizens feels even crazier. Well, so jumping back to Guantanamo Bay, why would we be doing all this stuff that's just classical brainwashing mind control technology? So suspicion, they're actually trying to, like Guantanamo Bay is actually a training breeding ground for Venturing candidate double agents who then get released. Wow.

Go back home, maybe. Oh, interesting. So it's like the worst case outcome is you inflict a lot of pain on the person. They give you vital information. You break them. The best case is that you can actually create some split personality or something and then send them back into their home turf, their home countries. Jesus Christ. That's gnarly, man.

I mean, that makes sense. It makes sense. The odds that it's never been done anything. seems slim to me. Well, yeah, no. I mean, that definitely has been. That's crazy. There's a little side story since I'm Canadian by birth.

I've got two passports now. There's a guy named Omar Kater. I'm not quite sure how you pronounce his last name. Who was a terrorist in the Middle East. I think it was Afghanistan. It was either a rock or Afghanistan. and he threw a grenade that wounded several American service guys. Well, how do he get his hands on the grenade?

How old was he? Twelve. So a 12-year-old kid, a platoon of U.S. soldiers invades his village way out in the middle of nowhere. There's a firefight. He gets shot. This is according to the U.S. military. He's under rubble. He gets pulled out.

He gets taken back to here and here. It ends up at Guantanamo Bay because he's a known terrorist. And I don't know if it's true or not true, but they say that they are interested in him because his father may have communicated with Osama bin Laden. So we're going to hold a 12-year-old kid, who's now 18, 19, 20, for almost a decade to try and get information out of him

because we can't get that information out in a couple of weeks. And he's a terrorist. And then he gets released and goes back to Canada and Canada gives him $10 million and place to stay. So such stupid stories and such ridiculous behavior for what purpose?

It's very weird. So you think there's this ulterior motive of... I don't know if it's just gung-ho, as you mentioned, cowboy craziness? Yeah. There's some sort of ulterior motive or plan. Like, what are the odds that a 12-year-old kid knows anything about anything? Speaking of kind of couriers that are split off from some hermetically sealed, almost encrypted part of themselves, that's carrying a message into kind of deep foreign territory.

One of the craziest stories from your book is about a woman named Candy Jones. Right. What's her deal? The control of Candy Jones is her autobiography, not autobiography. So she was a pin-up girl in World War II in the Pacific Theater, came back, was just kind of living a fairly regular life, nothing much going on. And then there's a guy who's, oh, I'm not going to remember this name either, But there's a guy who is a military intelligence guy who was living in the same building

who kind of interacted with her a bit. And she ended up getting worked on by this psychiatrist, had a new identity that was doing courier assignments and who knows exactly what kind of assignments. And then she wrote a whole lot of she and her biographer wrote about that in detail. Did she, what were the career assignments?

Where did she go? Philippines? I can't remember the whole list of places. Maybe Taiwan, I think. Probably. It was over Eastern Asia. Yeah. The gifted and talented education program in the United States, this often comes up as possibly related to some of these mind control experiments. But being done systematically on young people, you have a lot of people now coming out saying they had me drink a pink drink that. erased my memory or I was told to stare at a sign wave and collapse the sign wave or, you know, look at a piece of metal and see how I mentally interacted with the metal.

Right. Sometimes being spun around on, you know, people's vestibular systems being messed with. I think there's something called the G-lock or something like that. I don't know that. Have you heard anything about the gifted and talented education program? A few sort of floating rumors. That's about it. Okay.

But people have told me whether or whatever the program was called, that how did they get into it? Well, their dad took them over there because they had dirt on their dad because he was a sex offender and so on. Another route is after school programs, special school programs, and then the special school program got transferred over to the base. So I've heard those stories. Do you think any of this stuff, do UFOs ever? come up in your research? Do you think any of this relates to UFOs? I've actually touched on that a few times at risk of being dismissed as a UFO conspiracy nut, of course. You're in good company.

You outranked me, actually. I'm just a low-level guy. Yeah, yeah, you can, you know, look very sane next to me. So I'm wearing a ridiculous shirt that says believe and alien on. I'm wide open to aliens. Like, we know that there's like multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple reports of visual sighting from the ground,

visual sighting from the pilot, simultaneous radar sighting from the ground, radar sighting from the jet, turning right angles at Mach 3, jumping up 80,000 feet in seconds. It's all documented. These things have been observed over and over and over,

which maybe we can get to Roswell on a second here. So there's clearly craft, and it's kind of like taking the lid off little bit by little bit by little bit, because it was all mockery, mockery, mockery, mockery, but now it's not mockery anymore. Why? We're not talking about those crazy UFOs anymore.

We're talking about UAPs. So that's sort of a sanitizing, take the bad aura, or off. And the military and the government are saying there's UAPs that are not from us. So, okay, so is that cover story for some advanced program of our own? But it's not any technology that's anywhere near the public domain. So there definitely are UAPs flying around. Do they have biological occupants from other planets? Just based on that information you can't say for sure. But it's not just a made-up by nutcases thing. It's an officially acknowledged

phenomenon by the government. And if it's not, like, it's not the Russians, it's not the Chinese, it's not us. Yep. It's kind of run out of possibilities here. Well, also, if you think of UFOs as this, like, sacred, like, a UFO itself is just a, kind of a byproduct. It's this, like, you know, it's the tip of the iceberg. which is just this object that's flying in ways that we don't understand. And then if you think of that as the tip of the spear on like a deeper kind of worldview, metaphysical worldview, that is just much more expanded than this kind of materialist reductionist, you know, kind of overly scientific view that we have today.

I wonder if government or power structures think about people who are seeking truth and looking systematically into UFOs as some sort of like, you know, threat because it's inherently kind of in a reverent search. It's you're looking for, you know, authority beyond the government or you're looking for, again, metaphysics. That's very kind of expanded. And so I do sometimes wonder if there are initiatives in the government to kind of manufacture division and stoke conflict within the UFO community or instigate belief in sort of bizarre ways? So without having any evidence, I'm sure there are. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm sure there are too. Yeah. It's just the way intelligence operations operate. Yeah. You're always so into stand back in one side, back in the other side. Yeah. And if you just see it as a huge theater distraction, what's being distracted from? Well, it's because they're really,

are aliens and somebody in the government is interacting with them, or it's our own advanced weaponry that we want to keep a lid on. Yeah, I know, I know enough. It's going to be one or the other. I know enough to know that there's some aliens is a, you know, you are kind of being presumptuous by saying aliens as far as, you know, them being from another planet. And I'm saying not you. I'm saying anybody.

I'm never presumptuous. And you're never presumptuous. Now, you do stick with the facts. I don't. But, uh, well, I just like to use facts as the base. I think that's good. I don't mind going on. Speculate.

That's what you have to do. That's what you have to do with these things. And I actually think it's irresponsible not to speculate if per what you said, you're being given little bits and pieces of information strategically per these limited hangouts. If you're not trying to figure out what's actually going on and you're just taking at face value what you're being given, that's, that's an issue. If you're being given the data set by somebody who's trying to throw you off. Do you have to sip on the Kool-Aid while you're doing that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, that's the thing.

You have to sip on it and then say this Kool-Aid taste bad and spit it out or something, you know. So it's a really tough, these things are tough to look into because the people that are the bad actors are often the sources of information. So it's a weird, it's a weird space. But, yeah, I do wonder how much interaction, the UFO stuff and the MK Ultra stuff is. I mean, okay, why don't we, why don't. There's zero in the M-Kulture-related documents. Yeah. Not one word.

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The only connection, I think I can, yeah, the only connection I have is, I believe, in Jacques Valet, Jacques Valet is his famous French godfather. You're aware of him. Yeah, he's just from amazing UFO researchers, the basis for Francois Rufo's character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. He was J.L. and a Hynek's assistant in Blue Book, and he was also one of the kind of early pioneers of the internet. He helped build ARPANET under Doug Engelbart.

He has these series of diaries where he just writes about his meetings that he has. And they're called Forbidden Science. And he is like, I think, five volumes at this point. And he talked about, I believe, Sidney Gottlieb or like some of his super, some like people in the like the CIA, you know, technical staff services like, that world, them having books on UFOs and trying to understand what's going on with them, but like not really understanding what's going on with them. So there's some sort of interest on the part of people who are clearly deeply implicated in the mind control stuff in the UFO stuff. And then that book I mentioned, Martin Cannon controllers, he says abductions are just,

like alien abductions are just a smokescreen for MK Ultra. Like, um, uh, the famous, most famous abduction was Betty and Barney Hill, 1961. They actually say, you know, in their hypnotic regression, the beings look like Nazis or whatever. So then you get out of these Operation Paperclip scientists brought over. There's a very cool X-Files episode. I don't remember the whole story, but the UFO crashes or something. And the woman is being, like, manipulated and she's probably going to get an anal probe and everything by the aliens. And then all of a sudden it's, it's human beings.

And then the boss guy says, okay, rinse her out. Right. So, yeah. And you know what? I think certain abductions have been that. And then this is where it's so weird. It's kind of the perfect smokescreen for Intel because I also think there are real alien abduction. So the Betty and Barney Hill thing, I think was a genuine abduction.

But also, you know, the other weird fact around that is Charles Douglas Jackson, who worked at, he was like head of, you know, part of the psychological strategy board and ran psychological warfare for the United States in the 50s. And I believe was that Time Magazine was responsible for the Zapruder film. So the missing frames in the JFK assassination video. Like this guy was clearly... Sort of like the missing frames in the jail cell for Epstein. Exactly. The whole minute missing and the raw data.

Crazy. So C.D. Jackson is meeting with Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after they get abducted. Back to Epstein. So what if there's, let's say it was accidentally missing, which is how slack is that operation. But, okay, everything's fine. Then a minute later he's dead. You can't even die of asphyxiation in one minute.

It takes longer. No. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. That case smells so bad. It's so obvious. And, you know, I don't know. It's funny to me to see a lot.

A lot of like the podcast circuit is like all like up in arms now. And I'm like, we've known this for five years. It's like, just look at the facts. Like it's so obvious. You know, not that they shouldn't be up in arms, but they should have been up in arms many years ago. Right. But the human energy field, we're, we've been covering so much dark stuff. And I think the positive element of this is that we all have these kind of bioelectric,

electromagnetic fields and I think later MK Ultra stuff unfortunately deals with like chip implantations and stuff that is kind of freaky and weird. Putting implants in dolphins' brains and guiding them to drop bombs.

What? Who did that? CIA military, documented. No way. Being able to remote control a dolphin to drop a bomb? What's that? the day of the dolphin. Yeah.

You know that movie? Yeah, it's about John Lilly. Yeah, yeah. John Lilly is the actual real-life character. So the mysterious government organization comes over and starts jacking around with, he's working with dolphins and giving them LSD, which John Lilly actually did. And then what they do is they get a dolphin. They attach the bomb to the dolphin.

The dolphin's supposed to go under the... I can remember if it's the vice president or the president's fishing boat and go, release the thing and it blows up. And then that gets all shut down. But the documents describe using brain electrode implant,

off he goes, control the route, drop the bomb off. That's described in the documents. Jesus Christ. So we'll veer into that before we get to the energy fields. So in M. Kelter and related documents,

There's implanting electrodes in animal brains to control their behavior. There's a guy, Jose Delgado, who's a neurosurgeon at Yale. He's published a book called Towards a Psycho-Civilized Society. And he says, what we need to do is implant electrodes in the brains of the entire population, not counting the lead generals and the top politicians. And that's how we're going to make society psychoscivilized. civilized. What?

Stated in the book, clearly. It's the mark of the beast. Yeah. And so there's photographs in medical journals. One is a 16-year-old girl's head electrode in her brain. And Delgado, the technical advance he made was, you don't have to have the wire connected.

You can use a remote transmitter to activate the electrode. So depending on which electrode is being activated, she's normal. She's strumming on her guitar. She's pounding furiously on the wall, or she's just like out of it. This is photographs of this girl. And then in monkeys,

and one of the stupid cover stories is, oh yeah, we were trying this on cats. We had the cat with an electrode. We're sending it off into the world, but it ran in front of car and got killed. So we never did that again. So this is how it leaks into Hollywood as fiction, but it's actually fact. It's treatment of epilepsy is why we're putting electrodes in people's brains.

All 100% documented. Then there's a guy in Tulane University, Robert Heath, psychiatrist, who's funded by CIA They had multiple branches of the military. He's doing brain electrode implants and has the remote transmitter. He's curing the well-known mental disease of homosexuality. Because according to the American psychiatric... Being sarcastic for anybody taking that. It wasn't sarcastic if we jumped back in time to 1972.

Don't you talk about attempts to program somebody's sexuality, turning somebody... Well, this Robert Heath guy will come back to Robert Heath at Tulane. electrode in the gay guy's brain, expose him to heterosexual pornography over and over and over and over to condition them while you're stimulating the electrode to put him in a state of pre-orgasmic arousal. So you're pairing arousal with heterosexuality.

And towards the end, this is all published in mainstream medical journal that I've actually published in myself. Towards the end, they brought in a few, male prostitute, had her have sex with the guy while they're monitoring his brainwaves, and then they debrief him in the prostitute, and she says, yeah, he functioned well, normal. No way. And then the end of the paper is, so he was cured of homosexuality with only one relapse in the

first six months. Jesus, and they'll only one recid, but that's what? That's in the mainstream literature. Well, just like the Tuskegee Siphila study is published in mainstream journal. That is, this is crazy. That's crazy. So that's the crazy stuff that goes on in the psychiatry literature and in the official manual of psychiatry,

let alone the hidden stuff. Jesus, man. So we're just more, I mean, John Lilly, who we were talking about the inspiration for the day of the dolphin, he would do, he kind of invented the isolation tank, and he would take, you know, a lot of ketamine and would, you know, get into these dissociative states. And he even, like, I think at one point summoned,

this thing he called the SSI, the solid state entity, and would communicate, oh, yeah, communicate with this sort of alien intelligence. And he wrote a book called, I think, was it human programming and metaprogramming? I haven't read it. I think so. So you, just on the note of what you're saying, it just feels like humans are far more like programmable than we, we don't think of ourselves as suggestible. We think of ourselves as sort of fixed. But, in fact, were way more impressionable than we'd ever believe. Well, just take a look at Hollywood.

In the 50s, we were hunting communists, some of whom were communists and a bunch of weren't. And, like, everybody was on board with, we got to clean up America here. So that was pretty unanimous. And now it's flipped to the opposite extreme, where if you're not way over on the left, try finding work in Hollywood.

Yeah, it's really hard. And so then that's just the programmability of people in general. They swing over here, they swing over there. Humans are extremely memetic. And, you know, you just sort of, ideas are fashion statements. And you see it especially on social media is like really amplifies this because it's a hall of mirrors. Massively.

So if you're not like saying the thing that's like really popular right now, then you're sort of, you're falling behind and you're not staying relevant or something. There's a guy at British Columbia, so me being originally Canadian, he just got fined. It was something like $750,000 for making, just stating an opinion. Yeah.

That there's only two genders and two sexes. That's insane. He got fined three quarters of a million dollars. That is so crazy. That is so crazy. So that's why. What's the difference to do that in the McCarthy era? Do you think people like Jolly West tried to affect culture via celebrity?

Like, I actually met a woman who was Charlton Heston's daughter-in-law. It's a really sweet lady. And if you're out there, hello. And she, you know, Charlton Heston, obviously, you know, it's legendary actor. But Charlton Heston was this NRA champion. Yeah, yeah. So he was this, you know, National Rifle Association. you know, when shootings would happen, he would sort of be in the counter rally saying, you know, protect the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. That's right. And that, you know, and if anything, it mitigates violence and all this stuff. And then I found out... There's some data to support that. The, in a reverse sense, there's fewer deaths at home from guns in homes that don't have guns. which is, well, hello, it's pretty obvious. That's a good stat.

And for me, this is not, I moved from California to Texas, so I'm not, this is not a polemic on, you know, I'm not anti-gun necessarily. But I do find it interesting that a guy in Jolly West, who's clearly programmed a lot of violence at high levels in the U.S. is best friends with the guy who's the head of the NRA and this gun champion. Again, that seems interesting to me. Is there something there? You keep asking me questions as if I might know the answer.

I don't know. You know, we're speculating. We're in kind of really murky territory, but... Well, obviously, it's a huge industry, right? Yeah. So there's the financial part of it. There is the gung-ho cowboy part. In Canada, I lived up in the Canadian Arctic.

I probably killed two or three hundred tarmigan, which is a type of grouse that turns white in the winter. I owned a rifle. I never did shoot a moose, but I owned a rifle. So, you know, I was out in the woods walking around,

hunting, killing, eating. In southern Canada, I shot lots of rabbits and cooked them and ate them. So I'm not, you know, we can't kill the animals type person. But the amount of gun violence in the United States,

when you look at the graphs, like per hundred, the United States is up here. Next country's like down here. Well, that, so this is, It's so out of control. It's out of control. And this is what I'm getting at.

And this is a really weird, deep conspiratorial thread of which we've, you know, developed a few here. But it seems like the things Jolly West are involved with. And this cuts to Tom O'Neill's thesis with chaos is the construction of somebody like a Manson because he looked and talked and walked like a hippie when counterculture. was at its greatest threat to, again, people like Jadger Hoover who were running the FBI at the time, the State Department. Those guys were a little bit straight.

What's that? They were a little bit straight. What do you mean? Jared Gouver? I mean, they weren't hippies. They were straight guys. Oh, that exactly. Well, speaking of the, you know, kind of proverbial,

you know. Except he wasn't exactly totally straight. Well, he was into cross-dressing and they had all his compliment on him. I know, yeah. Well, it's always, it's always, this sort of narcissism of small differences, weird thing going on. So, but the point, like, he had it out for counterculture, right? And so this is what Tom O'Neill concludes in his book is they're going to

construct somebody that looks like a hippie in Charles Manson who literally had, he was like this wannabe artist. He has a song called Look at Your Game Girl. He's living with the beach boys. And then you have, you know, this, you know, famous quote by Joan Didion right after the murders saying, you know, August, I think it was 8th, 1968, was the, you know, the day that the, or maybe 1969, I don't remember, was the day that the 60s ended. The day that he, you know, committed the murders, the next day, the 60s ended, counterculture, hippie culture, all of that stuff's over. So the threat is over if you're, you know, part of the establishment structure. And so you have to wonder, you know, again, with this connection with Charlton Heston and gun violence, was Jolly

West specifically stoking symbolic violence, violence where you were creating local violence in order to move society in a specific teleology. Like, if you look at certain violent things that happen now, they get amplified so much across social media, whether it's Kyle Rittenhouse on the right or George Floyd on the left. I'm not making a comment on either of those things. It's not something I want to weigh into. Like, both, both, you know, kind of. There's a very curious thing with George Floyd. Yeah.

Obviously not a good guy. Yeah, sure. Obviously, didn't deserve to die. It didn't deserve to die. Maybe he was killed by the police officer, but he was cranked up on cold and had heart condition. But for sure. But we should say it was a horrific video. And it would get any reasonable person worked up.

Yeah. So, but why select him as the poster child? he's for a documented fact held a pistol to a black pregnant woman's abdomen while robbing our house. We want that guy to be our hero? There are all sorts of... So does that chosen on purpose to set up the counter argument that he's an all good bad guy? Or are they just overlook it or how does that operate? Well, this is the thing.

And I think in either of those cases, or you could come up with a million different examples of like public violence. violence, you know, violence that gets amplified across social media. Again, not making a comment on, you know, you could get in all sorts of like deep arguments as to, you know, who's the guy who's like, you know, I can't breathe and he was being choked out, you know, in Brooklyn. Clearly, it's way past time. There's all sorts of police malfeasance in these cases. But I think if you're intel and you're viewing the effect of symbolic violence, there's something very powerful. powerful about that. And it's very powerful if you want to sway things on particular issues. And so I think the public should just be aware and not susceptible to the sort of, you know, artificial construction of some of these violent cases. Good luck on that one.

I know. So here's a little slightly related. We're saying all these things and then it's like we're trending in the complete wrong direction as a society as far as our ability to make sense of any of these things. Like you go on Twitter or TikTok or Instagram and people's brains are being melted by this stuff. Debate now means shouting your feelings really loudly. That's right. So it almost makes me feel like because I said do you ever feel in danger talking about this stuff? I did a little bit way back, but then nothing happened, so why am I sweating?

Yeah, yeah. A couple decades later. Yeah. Folks knew the Colonel approved of his new honey chili crisp and jalapeno ranch sauces the moment he tasted them and said, that's right. No notes. Just absolute silence. Turns out some flavors don't need explaining.

They just need dipping. It's saucy season at KFC with new. Honey, Chili Crisp, and Halapena Ranch. Get dipping with a boneless bucket today. Prices in participation vary. So this story of my podcasting career. I'm like, really? I can say that.

Okay, cool. So far. Don't say that. Come on. Have you ever encountered M.K. Ultra being used in the context of spooky science. So I think of if you had a modern Manhattan project. So spooky science means... means classified science or science that, you know, maybe would lead to, it's a low barrier

to entry and very destructive. Right, right. Or, um, but we're talking to the actual engineering, not. Confer a tactical advantage, you know, in aerospace or weaponry or anything like that. Because I think of, we talked about the Manhattan Project for a second. If you had any sort of modern equivalence of the Manhattan Project, and you were working on something really sensitive, you might. implant one of the scientists with a chip or tell them to drink a drink or something.

And then you'd have like a shutdown switch if they ever, you know, got lost in foreign territory. I mean, this is really dark stuff. But have you ever encountered anything like that? Uh-uh. Okay. Let's get into lighter territory because this is a, I'm officially really spooked. This is a great book. This is the...

So far, we've done mostly this book and a little bit of this book. Now we're going to do that book. Now we're going to do this book. the human energy field. Right. What inspired you to write this and what's the basic thesis? So,

I'm a hardcore scientist, right? Yeah. Mainstream. No flaky stuff at all. No, you're right down the middle. Here comes the mainstream, not flaky story. Yeah.

So I'm in England in 67. And I just remember, not particularly thinking about the topic, uh, Nottingill Gate is, right at the corner of a big park. And I'm just walking into the park and all of a sudden I see a cone of light

that comes out of my eyes. It's about 25, 30 feet away, diameter's about like this. And as I move by gaze, it moves up onto the back of a person, then it dissolves. So, what the hell? Hadn't taken any LSD that day.

So I just stored that experience. Instead of all that stupid. And then that made me think about the sense of being stared at, which is a very common experience. And then it's called, you know, there's a word for it, scopesthesia. I watched you talking to the Rupert Cheldry. That's right. And I've read his book, so I'm aware of him. Yeah.

So, because you've got to make it sound scientific, right? What? Scopesthesia. Scopesthesia, yeah. So we're not flooring around here. Yeah, make it sound official. Right. Yeah.

So, which is a good strategy. I agree with it. UAP. So the sense of being stared at. And then I started to actually, for some reason it was more in Italy when I was traveling in Italy. I remember one time in particular, I could actually feel the spot on the side of my face

that was being stared at. When I turned around and look at the person, that's staring right at me. And then I had another experience of, which is con, I'm looking through the window, so this energy goes through glass, at a nice looking Italian woman walking down the street. She turns and looks right at me.

There's a look of mutual recognition, and then it's like, huh. So that's a very common experience that a lot of people have had, right? So then I go, I'm not going to just blow that off and say it's, which mainstream quotes science people say it's misperception, it's an illusion, it's not real, because there's two theories. There's intramission,

which is light comes into your eyes, goes in your back to your brain, that's clearly real. And then extramission is something comes out of your eyes. Extramission, it's not allowed. No way not happening. Going all the way back to John Locke,

it's just forbidden. It's not possible. And that dominates academia today. So I go, yeah, maybe not. Something's got to be. coming out here for you to sense somebody staring at you. So that's kind of what got me off on this.

And then it was a spiritual, anthropological, philosophical reading, walking around in the woods in England, in the bush in Canada, sensing energy fields. One time, 1970, or 71, we've got a cabin in the woods in eastern Manitoba. So I was out there with my shotgun hunting rabbit. And all of a sudden I go, I could actually feel the stare of the rabbit and feel that it was rabbit-like energy, turned around, shot it, ate it that evening. So that makes me think, hmm, there's survival advantage to be able to sense stare. And then that made me think, well, if you're a gazelle out in Africa somewhere and you can sense the predator staring at you and you feel uneasy and you take off, that's going to be selected for over evolution.

It's a good survival skill. And so I'm thinking along those lines, and then I go, well, okay, that's nice. But how are we going to study this scientifically? So Rupert Sheldrick talks about morphic fields, right? But what are morphic fields? Like, how do you measure? It doesn't lead to an actual experiment. So then I just went, we know for a fact that every atom, everything in the universe,

emits an electromagnetic field. And then inside there's the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force, and then gravity's in there somehow, but who knows how. So it's just basic physics, right? So then I go, okay, how am I going to be able to marry Eastern and Western medicine? I'm going to say that energy, the spirit, the whatever, the whatever, and the electromagnetic field of the body are the same thing, just looked at through different lengths.

lenses. If you look through this lens, it's all spiritual, mystical, you can't study it, it's outside science. But if you look at it through, oh, it's electromagnetic energy, we can measure that. So you put 20 electrodes on your brain, you measure your EEG. You put 12 electrodes here, you measure your EKG. So we're already measuring the electromagnetic field of the body for diagnostic and treatment purposes. It's mainstream science, nothing wacky about it at all. So the human body

only has two parts, the brain and the heart. There's only brain disease and heart disease, that's it? Well, so the whole human body is admitting information of probable high level medical relevance all the time. Why aren't we measuring that?

So then I published a paper in a pretty obscure electrical engineering journal where a guy got these guys to sort of weld together a normal electrode that you put in mice's brains to measure stuff and suspended in front of my eye so it's not touching my body at all. I've got ski goggles where I took out this side so I can actually see out. This side is covered with tin foil and copper mesh that I got at Target, so it's high-level signs. But that's very good electromagnetic insulation.

Then there's another electrode hanging out in front, just in space, and then there's the 20 normal EG leads. And these two frontal leads here, you can see the squiggly lines like normal EG. So here's the two frontal leads. Here's the lead in front of my eye, no physical contact with my body. Here's the control lead that's just showing background little. it's a completely physiological real signal that's been picked up in front of your eye.

It looks very similar to the electrode readings here. So, I mean, the whole world hasn't said, good job. We know that extramission is real now because you still have to say, doesn't have any physiological or ecological function and how far does it propagate out into space. turns out that the inverse square law shows that signals drop off really fast but extra low frequency

like brainwave level propagates because if you figure the wave like is so huge it's not going to drop off and it doesn't drop off published in mainstream journals for thousands of kilometers

the signal intensity doesn't drop off so it's perfectly realistically possible that from here to the gazelle, it's still a strong signal. So then I go into the anthropology of it. Well, what about the sense of being stared at? But in Italy, these people are called jetatory. So they jet the evil eye out of their eye. There's evil eye beliefs all around the world, right? And you can cause evil eye sickness by staring at a person if you're a editor who's got bad energy.

So I go, okay, so there's all kinds of cultural precedence for this. What if it's like 80% of that superstition? I don't care. My thesis is there's a core, real electrophysiological signal there that can be investigated. That's fascinating. So you have the, and what's really crazy is you said, ELF, extremely low frequency, Andre Pujarich, who isn't in some of the documentation that you, you went through for CIA doctors, but you're aware of him. He was fascinated by ELF waves and thought

that that was kind of the signal for consciousness. And that was, I think, the more kind of shut down part of his work. So what are you saying is evidence for extramission, this idea that the, what are you saying that the eyes emit photons or electrons or what specifically, or ELF waves? So your brain emits brain waves, which we measure by putting electrolyms. on your skull. And we have to do a little contact paste there just to get a good contact. Otherwise, there's too much noise.

So these, which I mentioned before, before we started recording, these electrical engineers, mainstream, grant-funded, mainstream publications, they can take a normal clinical EKG from a meter away with no contact with the body. Sure. So these signals for sure propagating out into space.

If they go a meter, because it's ELF, the ELF component is going way that out there. We know for a fact, proven, no doubt. And me with my one little paper of proven, it's coming out of your eye. So there's all these brainwaves going on. They've got to get through your skull to get to the electrode. Oh, they don't have to go through your skull to come out your eye.

The optic nerve is this giant electrical cable literally right there. And just the geometry of the skull and focus concentration. probably the signal is going to be stronger coming out of your eye. Oh, it's so wild. But it's completely scientifically testable and scientifically plausible. It's not mysticism. Yeah. So that's what I'm trying to do is take all this stuff and transform it into very specified ways this could be tested.

Which, by the way, I would like some financial help with that from somebody, some kind person somewhere. Yeah. And so this is electro technology. it looks like from a little bit I've looked into it, probably antenna technology is better. There's very high-sensitive antennae that exist, and you can buy them online. So whether it's electrode or antenna,

start measuring these signals. So for the eye part of it, which I'm just, it's kind of my personal hobby horse because I've already been ridiculed in public for talking about extramission, which I called the human eye beam, but then I realize,

actually my dog, daughter told me, you can't call it the human eye beam if you're going to publish it. So it's human ocular extramission. That sounds way more professional. Does it decay at all? So I think of a normal electromagnetic wave as decaying at one over R squared, so one over distance square. Well, ELF doesn't decay like that. What does it decay like?

I don't know for sure, but minimally for literally hundreds of kilometers. So if I'm just thinking about a thing is the idea that I somehow, know how to, like when I'm, when I'm imprinted, when I'm literally just thinking of something, I'm conjuring it up in my mind. Am I affecting it somehow in this model via these ELF waves that geolocate it and literally reach it? Like a physical wave comes out of my brain or eyes. The whole body, actually. Whole body and reaches this object. It transmitters the solar plexus in my opinion. Okay. But is a wave emitting from my body?

and reaching something that is geolocated and temporally located in our time space? Because I think of consciousness, like, if you have a mental image of something, I don't necessarily translate that as like you are beaming a thing at it. Or do you think you are with these ELF waves? Well, we're back to yes, no, maybe. So that's why, like, the starting point, so my effort is to boil it down to actually test a lot. stuff. Yeah. And you've got to start here before you go way out here, right? So what would be the next

test you would run? Develop a high, high sensitivity electrode. I would just assume that you can't repeatedly affect an object or a person who's across some sort of, you know, totally electromagnetic shielding Faraday chamber. And if you, if, I know these experiments have been done, how put off did experiments like this with Ingo Swan. It's part of Stargate, the official CIA psychic spy program. Rupert Sheldrick's looked into that too, right? He's looked into this, but my understanding

is it's like, it's replicable and it's real. It's a real effect. But that you can't do it every single time and you can't detect like an exact ELF wave every time. I mean, maybe they just have it studied the ELF component and it is literally a wave. But somehow my instinct is that it's more complicated than some frequency were missing.

Like, my guess is over the last 50-plus years of study in parapsychology with the benefit of information technology and chips and receivers and radio tech, that someone must have done this experiment at some point and picked up... It's classified. Do you think so? Yeah. Again, it's back to the military intelligence community and whoever all the big companies would be.

be negligent if they weren't trying to investigate this, tap into it, figure out what to do with it. I agree, but do you think you can repeatedly pick up, so you think ELF waves explain all psychic phenomena? No. Okay. Nothing explains all of everything. So I'm just saying, what can we actually measure now with our current technology? Sure.

And publish in a mainstream journal and everybody's going to go, set something stared at, it's just been proven. What do we know about the skin? Hmm. What happens to you stay out in the sun too long? long. Get burned? Ultraviolet radiation. It causes the burn.

UV. What type of radiation is that? Electromagnetic. It's electromagnetic. How do we synthesize vitamin D? Photons hit our skin. That's right. They're captured.

They drive biological processes. How do we see? So your body's already capturing photons and using them to drive very well organized, life essential processes all the time. So there's nothing that's just, again, right in the middle of common sense and science. So there's these subthreshold rays that I happen to glimpse a few times. They're just subthreshold. It doesn't mean they're not real.

You know what I think you should invent? So people have been experimenting with electromagnetic healing modalities for a long time. You have royal rife. We'll get there. Yeah. I'm just building the core of the territory. and then. Well, no, I'll, I'll defend you and say that this is a fact. The voltage gated ion channels is how cells communicate. Differentials of the potential, you know, within the cell membrane and

without the, you know, outside of the cell membrane when it comes to, you know, things like sodium potassium is how cells communicate. Local electromagnetic fields affect those differentials, affect the communication. Their studies going back to the 70s, there's a guy, Gary Becker wrote a great book called The Body Electric. where it's a great book, yeah. Great book. You can essentially charge electromagnetically the severed, you know, arm of a tadpole, cut off its arm, charge it electromagneticly. Salamanders he did, too.

Salamanders. Salamanders, you can cut off their arm and they regrow it themselves. You regrow it themselves, but you can regrow it. You can create a two-headed salamander, two-headed tadpole also with basically just taking the, you know, the gradient, the eye. on gradients of the head cells and then applying it to that stub of an arm that you cut off. So you end up with these, I mean, there's literally a guy at Tufts right now named Michael Levin who's doing limb regeneration based on this stuff. It's really wild. It's all coming. It's all coming. Absolutely. So for people who are saying this is quack science, no, it's absolutely real.

So here's what I think you should do. Okay. So Royal Rife, who was actually involved. I'm aware of him, yeah. Yeah, you're aware of him. So he was involved in some not so savory research per what we were talking about at plum island and you know where we're probably the modern version of Lyme disease came from speaking of I've read about that yeah pretty interesting um but he had this thing called a Rife machine which if you ask a Lyme disease patient to this day ironically uh this is the thing that works for them it came from this guy Royal Rife uh and it works on the electromagnetic field from the of the body and it essentially is like a it's a horseshoe that's a copper horseshoot looks like basically a Tesla coil.

Right. And it seems to tune the body in this really healing way. There's another company called amp coil which makes things around this area. I've used an amp coil before. It's called a Tesla coil? It's a Tesla coil. There's some guy around here who makes Tesla stuff?

Elon Musk. You should be involved. Possibly. Although it was tricky to get his attention. Yeah, I don't know. But so I think if you there's a whole polemic on Elon working on I don't know, yeah, but

I'm aware. Yeah, yeah, you're aware. So, if you think of the body as you can turn molecular mass into frequency and every organ or every part of the body should be operating at some optimum frequency. Again, not quacky to say. There's a field called cymatics.

When the frequency goes to zero, we know it's game over. We know it's game over. And there's a field called cymatics where you can put sand on a vibrational plate and create structures deliberately with frequency and acoustics. And so we know that this is not pseudoscience.

Right, right. So what if you created some sort of, just like we, you know, you can bank stem cells or blood cord if you're, you know, baby or whatever, and then you do an autologous stem cell transfer later in life if you have some sort of malady and it can really help you. I tell you a secret about doctors? What?

They use long words you don't understand to sound smarter. I know. Sorry for using the word autologous. It's just your own stem cells is what I'm saying where you don't have an immune reaction

due to transferring it. My point is, what if you could figure out there was like an optimum frequency at which your organs or body could operate at? Boundabee. You could then create sort of a bank electromagnetically of, you know,

what is optimum health for your organs? You could also do that across a large cohort. And then you could create essentially a tuning fork for the human body. And if you think about acoustics and physics and electromagnetics, they exist upstream of biochemistry. Biochemistry is, you know, one layer up on the stack. Do you want to know the caveman version of that technology? Tell me, yeah. What do you put in the person's chest when they've got atrial fibrillation?

A pacemaker. A pacemaker, exactly. Where are you doing it? Can't walk through an x-ray because it'll... At a very primitive level. We are. No, we are. Exactly. We are. We know that the body is electric. Yeah. And what is a defibrillator at all? It is a way to electrically jumpstart the body. So couldn't we do something like this? And then you would end up with this post-medicine, you know, we have medicine, which is really the creation of the Flexner Report and the sort of modern American medical association, which is...

Now we're offered a conspiracy theories again. But it's not even a conspiracy. It's literally, it's petrochemical. And, you know, this is Rockefeller was funding this stuff. And I'm not saying, you know, necessarily it was all. I'm very critical of big pharma. It's horrible. It's a bad system. So this is all, it's all this petrochemical based pills.

And then if you created this sort of generator that could like take that out, like this, literally this thing that could tune your body. How amazing would that be? So you should create it. Thank you. Yeah. You should get me some money. giving you the idea and getting you the money yeah

well what else he's got to do today okay fine all loan 90% of the company then I might have to negotiate on that okay all right we'll figure it out so well this is all where my thinking is heading and it's all there's a

TV show and a couple of movies called Star Trek there's Dr. Bones a tricorder. I'm talking about developing a tricorder. You use this antenna. Okay, so interested about the eye beam,

but interested in the whole body. And then you can have an array of these either electrodes or antennae, whatever kind of sensors it is. And you lie the person down at, you can have just handheld single version and you can scan around. You can have like a mammogram

x-ray type thing, or you can have like an MRI machine we lie in there, you have a ray of these electrodes and you measure all the frequencies are coming out of the whole body in all the different locations. And can you spot disease at the electromagnetic level before it trickles down to the biological level? Hmm. Probably. Probably.

Or you just do the scan. So it's not like an MRI. you're not putting any radiation into the person or a CT scan or anything. You're just measuring what comes out. So it's no more noxious than taking a photograph of somebody. There's no side effects at all. And then, okay, just what you've been saying. Okay, here's the abnormality that we've measured,

and we've got, you know, all the norms and all the charts and all the different diseases all mapped out. What energy are we going to put back in to normalize this? Exactly. So it's a whole electromagnetic. I get medicine. And then I remember talking to a guy at a sort of a dinner get-together. I was talking about sort of this kind of stuff.

And I was getting saying to him, yeah, well, satellites now, they can read x-rays from the sky. And the sky's a military guy. And he sort of scoffs at me and surprise me with his reactions. License plate, they can count the hair on a fly's butt. So, I mean, the resolution is incredible, right? So if I've got little lines here, it's called a fingerprint, I've got an iris here, I've got DNA in here. These are all identifying features of me, right?

So maybe everybody has an electromagnetic specific signature to themselves, which maybe you could track from way up there. So then really this funny side story of that too, A book about Osama bin Laden was obviously anti-FBI pro-CIA kind of perspective. And they're making fun of this guys on the FBI CIA are stumbling and bumbling around. They can't find him anywhere. Oh, we just missed our opportunity. He was at a Saudi Arabia, I think it was.

One of those get-togethers where they all have their falcons and their hunting and stuff. He was there, and they knew who was there, and they were monitoring from a drone or satellite or whatever. And then he just slipped out. We didn't notice him leaving. And that's why we didn't get him that ear. It's the most ridiculous, preposterous story ever. What I mean?

You're surveying, like, all the time. What do you mean, the tape changed the minute was missing from when bin Laden left? So we were obviously able to track any individual we want just optically. So now it could track electromagnetically. So we have that technology. How come we have all these missing children? We have no idea where they are. So there's some big block to getting that operational so we could find all these people and arrest all these guys.

So now we're back into the conspiracy side of it. But what exactly you're saying if this technology around MK Ultra is in the black, along with the electromagnetic signatures that are unique to people, we should be able to, like, track everybody on the planet, like, or some group should with sort of. Potentially. But we're already tracking with digital currency, satellite imagery. Yeah. Telephones, e-mails.

I mean, every single phone call email is tracked in storage. and stored, right? So it's just another additional part of the horrible surveillance complex. Yeah, it's fantastic. I was trying to end on a positive net. Well, I'm back to the light side here. My father's not that evil guy.

So we're just taking mainstream medicine into the 21st century. We are, man. While dragging our feet on it a bit. And so then another thing would be security. So, you have,

iris recognition, you're the only person with your key, there's levels of it. Why don't we have a electromagnetic scanner that identifies a person? Why don't we

have a system where you can detect somebody approaching the building or answering the building electromagnetically? Let's not do any of that. Let's do the healing thing

first. I'm just saying this is part of the sales pitch, right? Yeah. There's so many applications. Then, in agriculture. Yeah.

We have hydroponic gardening already, right? Yeah, sure. It's not that widely used. We know there's some, like, really stupid, ridiculous people called medicine men. Yeah. And they like to jump around and chant and wave feathers in the air to help the crops grow. Superstition. There's, if you go back, 1500 years in England,

there's the Maypole dances, which are fertility dances in the spring. So it's all cultures all over the place, right? Well, ridiculous nonsense, but they're having fun at the party. But what if the medicine man is emitting a specific focused electromagnetic signal, which I say probably coming from the solar plexus, that actually enhances germination?

So now we go to the hydropod. garden. We measure what it is that's coming out of the medicine man's body. We imitate that frequency with an emitter. We expose the hydroponant garden to it. We have the control garden. What's the germination rate? It's totally researchable. Well, like Tesla said, it's all frequency. Yeah. And Dr. Colin Ross, I really appreciate this. I'm glad we ended on this positive note of fertilizing the world, healing people, because we just covered a lot of dark shit, to be honest. But it's dark stuff that really needs to be exposed,

and you've really helped put it to the light. And so I don't really know what you do with this. I think it's just be aware of all the weird malfeasance when it comes to intel on this stuff historically. And, you know, maybe we can get some good investigative journalism as to what's happening today. And really appreciate you coming by, man. There's a lot of fun.

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