American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - I Confront The Secretary of Energy On UFOs

Starting point is 00:00:00 Today we make American alchemy history. I have seen laser technology that could bring down almost anything. We get to interview a former secretary of energy. That's right, the guy that ran the entire department of energy. All of our nuclear programs, the national labs, and if I'm right, probably a lot of stuff around UFOs. If you actually read the Atomic Energy Act, if something is not a nuke,

Starting point is 00:00:25 but it has radiological energy coming off it, you know, alpha, beta decay, whatever, Same secrecy. Same secrecy. I believe nuclear secrecy was used as a Trojan horse for UFO secrecy. The Manhattan Project would have custody of it, and then it would go into the Atomic Energy Commission, and then it would go into the Department of Energy, which has its own line of clearances.

Starting point is 00:00:49 And that makes sense. UFOs have shown up at nuclear weapons installations and civilian energy grids for the last 80 years. Countless witnesses have reported reported UFOs hovering around nuclear sites, since the 40s, before we had drones or reconnaissance planes. And thousands of military and intelligence reports have documented this connection.

Starting point is 00:01:12 From Roswell, New Mexico in 1947, the site of the largest nuclear stockpile to date, to Fukushima, Japan, to Chernobyl and Ukraine, the connection between nuclear and UFOs is global and ubiquitous. But the person we're about to end interview isn't just any secretary of energy. He was one of Ronald Reagan's closest advisors throughout his career.

Starting point is 00:01:38 And the reason I really wanted to interview him is that there has been a story circulating about him by a friend of the show and former American alchemist, Brent Friedman. Here's how that story goes. I grew up next to a guy that I revered. A guy named John Harrington, his wife Lois, his two daughters, not gonna name them.

Starting point is 00:01:58 And I mean, we literally live right next room there was like one gate between us. John was a man's man. John taught me how to throw a football, got me into football, and just all these things. And he was like a surrogate father to me. Cut to six years later,

Starting point is 00:02:12 he calls me up. He goes, listen, I got a new job. I'm back east now. I'd like you to drive our cars across the country. That night, when he comes home, also in a black Lincoln Town car pulls up. And he gets out of the backseat, and there's two secret service people that come in.

Starting point is 00:02:26 And I notice he has a briefcase handcuffed to his wrist. They walk him into the house and they go back and I'm kind of watching from a distance. He puts it into a wall safe distance and one of the Secret Service people leaves and the other one stays in the house. I'm thinking who is this guy? And then afterwards he's like, hey, why don't you and I go out onto the veranda and catch up? I'm sitting there talking with him. We're catching up. And I'm like, okay, all of that's great. What is your job?

Starting point is 00:02:55 And he goes, I can't really talk about it. You know, I'm working for the government. It's classified. And I said, okay, well, I don't know. What does that even mean? And he goes, look, I have a higher clearance level than the president. So how did you get that job? And he said, well, I was briefed for months in an underground facility in West Virginia.

Starting point is 00:03:14 And I said, what? What was that like? And he said, well, I used to cry myself to sleep every night. So I said, well, I don't, what would make you cry yourself to sleep? And he goes, Brent, this is not the world I thought I was bringing my daughters into. And so I pressed him on and he kept saying, I can't talk about that. I can't talk about it. This is like classified information.

Starting point is 00:03:35 And finally, after he'd had a couple drinks, he said, all right, look, I can tell you this. Aliens are real. They're here, and I've seen them. Then I came back at him with, okay, well, hold on a second. If what you're saying is true, how does everyone not know about it? And he said, oh, lots of people know about it. 81, you could walk into any bookstore, and you're going to find out. find all sorts of books on the shows with lots of truth. But right next to them are the books

Starting point is 00:04:05 that we publish full of propaganda. It's a multi-billion dollar campaign to cover up the truth. They've been here a long time. So I needed to speak to John Harrington myself. Luckily, his grandson, shout out David, was a fan of the show, knowing that this would be an uphill battle, but also a historic interview. And it's one that I hope body language experts and analyzed very closely. Because we were down at Greenbrier, I think it was Greenbrier. John clearly didn't want to break any security oaths, something I don't blame him for.

Starting point is 00:04:50 Do you know about the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office? No. OK. That's public now. Is it? Yeah, yeah. There's so much about the bottom of the ocean

Starting point is 00:05:01 that we don't know. It seems like they might be finding things on the sea floor. Yep, they are. Kind of exotic and anything they want. Did you ever work with Bobby Ray Inman? Guy, he was deputy director of the CIA at the same time. No, we still see each other. He's up at the Bohemian Grove.

Starting point is 00:05:17 Do you think there are any elements of the government that systematically study this stuff, UFOs? Yeah, the government does crazy stuff everywhere. Did you ever know a guy named Harold Malmgren by any chance? Yeah, in one of our briefings at the Energy Department? Wow. Jesse, this goes back decades. If I told you, there is an airplane powered by nuclear power

Starting point is 00:05:38 sitting in a hangar in Idaho Falls, would you believe me? Yeah, I don't know. Do you think that that's possible? It is. It's true. I know there are projects that are so secretive that there are great efforts to keep them classified. Without further ado, this week's historic American Alchemy episode with former Secretary of Energy, John Harrington. This problem

Starting point is 00:06:11 can not longer be. I moved to Austin a couple of years ago. And one of the things that nobody mentions about moving is that you lose your doctor. You've spent years finding someone you trust, and now you're in a city where you don't know a single practice and you don't have anyone to ask. So you do what most people do,

Starting point is 00:06:43 which is nothing for a long time. And it's the same problem every time I travel for this show. I'm in a new city practically every other month, and if something comes up, I've got no doctor there and no idea where to start. Zoc Doc is sponsoring this episode, and I want to say a genuine thank you because this is exactly the problem they've solved. It's a free app and it works in all 50 states. You put in what kind of doctor you need and what insurance you've got, and it shows you everyone near you who actually takes it with real

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Starting point is 00:08:04 Michaels with Noe, and check that appointment off your to-do list. The links in the description. John, this is a total honor. I really appreciate you being here today. You were the fifth Secretary of Energy in the United States. And you were also the Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Manpower and Reserve Affairs. You were a close Reagan advisor for so many years. Your wife is here today. You guys are kind of a power couple. She also has an illustrious career in politics. And so, yeah, it's just an honor to be with you. I really appreciate you doing this. It's not every day that I get to speak to somebody of your caliber. Well, I'm a listener. I enjoy your show, so I'm pleased to be here. Absolutely. Well, I don't even know where to start. I mean, there's so many kind of touch points and jumping off points. But do you remember your first interaction with Reagan?

Starting point is 00:08:59 First interaction? Yeah. That would be Chicago. Do you remember what it was like meeting him? Well, he's a movie star. And you growing up in Illinois, you know what movie stars, there at me there? You hold them in a little bit of awe. But I had read a lot about him and I had worked with the guys that worked with him. And he's very understanding and very easy to get along with. He's the same man in public as he is in private, which you can't say for a lot of the politicians. Do you feel like he was very not only personable, which is obvious from watching him,

Starting point is 00:09:37 but high integrity and good to the people around him behind closed doors, just kind of virtue signaling. He was. He was very good to everyone. I don't, if I had to look back on it, it was later during the building of the Reagan Library that we would say were more friendly, but in the government of the United States working in the White House and at the high level, you're not his friend. You're a staff and you're working to carry out policies. And if you don't, if you don't believe that, you ought to go home. I saw him mad a couple of times, But he'd be disappointed mad, you know, if something happened that he didn't think should happen. When the SDI people tried to undermine him on that, he was not happy about that.

Starting point is 00:10:26 Yeah. He really believed in that SDI, and that was one of his major programs getting that out. And the staff fought him on that. They had a lot of people in the government that did not want the Strategic Defense initiative. And the Russians did not want it. Even his own Secretary of State was against it. And describe what the Strategic Defense Initiative is, again, to the average person, they know of it maybe as Star Wars. They think of it as some super science fiction, space lasers, you know, missile defense project, which partly kind of was.

Starting point is 00:11:01 But how would you describe it? Well, first of all, the president had been doing a lot of reading, a lot of thinking. And you need to get by the fact that some of the politicians and a lot of the press thought president was, you know, not smart. And he was nothing but an actor from Hollywood. Of course, his diaries have now been fully printed. I didn't know he was keeping a diary. So I started reading some of the stuff in it that I was doing, and it's very accurate. What is he right about you?

Starting point is 00:11:35 This was a private meeting in the resident. one night, and I'd rather not talk about that. Okay. I'm not going to write a book. Okay. But it's out there for anyone there? It's in the diary. Okay.

Starting point is 00:11:48 And you have a book that came out from the Hoover Institution called In His Own Hand. Okay. And what it is, it is absolutely proof that he wrote his own speeches. And, of course, you have almost everybody in the government now claiming they did it from one of the chief, right? for the Wall Street Journal to a few others. They're all claiming they wrote to take down the wall, Mr. President's speech. Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall. He put that.

Starting point is 00:12:24 Peter Robinson thinks he, I met Peter. He's at the Hoover Institute. And Peter is, you can take him to the bank. Peter is very good. But I think Peter Robinson said he wrote that speech for Reagan. Okay. Now, here's what. what happened. The staff took it out of the speech not once, but twice. And so driving to the

Starting point is 00:12:45 wall, the advanced man that was with him as a close friend of mine, the president put it back in again. Okay. Okay. Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall. If you really believe in freedom or whatever it was. Wow. And they thought that was too controversial. So now we're going to go to SDI. Yeah. And he said, look, wouldn't it be wonderful at a cabinet meeting? And he, if we could design something that would protect us from missiles. And at that time, the United States had a policy with Russia called Mutual Assured Destruction. What that meant was if they launch a missile, we will launch a missile. And if we launch one, they will launch one.

Starting point is 00:13:29 Mutual assured destruction was our policy. It's crazy. If you'd had that with Iran today and they had missiles, we would have. have both been blown off the face of the earth. So this was a new way of looking at it. He said, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have this system that would keep the missiles on a shield? They could never get to us. And then he said, I would be willing as president to share that system with any country that wanted it. I would let the Russians have the system. But it was expensive system. So it was kind of a surprise. The Pentagon was,

Starting point is 00:14:08 was not quite ready for it. The Air Force was tasked to come up with ways to do it. Livermore Laboratory was part of it. You had some of the best scientists in the United States trying to figure out how to do it. One of the ones I liked the best was developed at Livermore. they would cause a nuclear explosion to go off in space. And they would focus the energy from that through a lens about the size of your thumbnail. And they claimed they could hit a silver dollar at 500 miles and disintegrate it. Jesus. I know.

Starting point is 00:14:54 That's nuts. It was true. Now, that one did not get to the top of the list. Because the whole idea of firing nuclear power in space or a nuclear explosion was not going to sell, obviously. So they worked in other ways, ground-based lasers, space-based lasers, and a lot of progress has been made in that. And it was called the Strategic Defense Initiative, the press panned it, Democrats panned it. Everybody called it Star Wars after the movie. And they said it was crazy.

Starting point is 00:15:28 Well, here we are doing it. The Global Dome, the Iron Dome, these are all coming into fruition now. Yeah, Golden Dome in the U.S. Golden Dome. Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of people also thought of it as a kind of way to bankrupt the Soviets or like make them chase us or something. It was. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:15:47 That ended the Cold War. Yeah. There's some interesting in it. You know about the Excalibur designs from Edward Teller, like this sort of X-ray-based blasts that would take out. Teller sat on my couch with me one after. afternoon. He was also a proponent of the one I just described, and he had brought a lens to show me and how he was going to do it, but he was going to propel it with the explosion. Excalibur, Teller was an amazing man. He's the guy that figured out that if you inject certain

Starting point is 00:16:19 elements into a nuclear explosion, you can turn it into a hydrogen explosion. Wow. He was a junior scientist at the Manhattan Project, but he's the guy that came up with the idea. Yeah, the Teller Ulam designed for the hydrogen bomb. He had fights with Oppenheimer because Oppenheimer was like, this is too big for any target. I know. He sort of, you know, ended up winning out. And what was Ed Teller like?

Starting point is 00:16:43 What were your interactions with him like? Well, I was in awe. I mean, I didn't give him my view on the world. I sat and listened to him. There were just two of us sitting on the couch in the energy to, apartment. He had a big cane, and he had the lens, and he has a thick German accent, older guy, and going to great lengths to explain how this is going to work. I would love to hear stories of the Manhattan Project and everything, but I didn't get into that. We spent about 45 minutes, I think.

Starting point is 00:17:16 Were there anything outside of, you know, traditional nuclear that he talked about that was interesting? No. No. Okay. He's all business. Okay, cool. He's all business, and we didn't get into the weapons part of it at all. SDI was the only thing we got into. Uh-huh. I want to bring up UFOs. As you know, I have a show that covers UFOs and kind of nature of reality. And Edward Teller's a great segue because his name is actually on a document from 1949, and it's this green fireball problem. And it's him and Lincoln LaPaz, who's a meteor expert at the, um,

Starting point is 00:17:53 University of New Mexico and a bunch of these kind of head honchos in the military meeting, you know, on this recorded document at Los Alamos, and they're trying to figure out UFOs. And this has now been, you know, let out by the White House in their Pursue Act. And simultaneous to that, you have directors of national intelligence like James Clapper. You have, you know. That's not a name my respect. Fair enough. Yeah, no, I have issues with him too. also mixed bag, but, you know, a lot of these, you know, likewise. See, for sure. But a lot of these kind of head haunches at the CIA saying, you know, this is real. This is a real issue. So, you know, consider me a strange bedfellow with some of these people. But, you know, I think we have so much evidence that these things seem to show up around

Starting point is 00:18:45 our nuclear sites. What do you think? And did you experience anything while you were Secretary of Energy around this? Well, we got a lot of rumors about. what was happening in Area 51, which is a very highly classified area with a lot of projects that are highly classified going on, primarily defense-related. Nothing about UFOs. And honestly, I did not, during the time I was there, come across anything in our budgets

Starting point is 00:19:17 or in our programs that would lead me. me to have any knowledge in the UFO area. On the other hand, I am not blind to what I see on television with these Navy gun cameras that are picking up off San Diego, the thing traveling at warp speed, diving into the ocean. I frankly, Jesse, I don't know what they are. I don't know where they're coming from. My guess is the amount of power to send somebody with that kind of propulsion is, not within our capability, and it's not within the capability of any country that I know of. You talk about the hypersonic missiles in China and things like that. This is so far above that.

Starting point is 00:20:07 They talk about Navy running into certain things and submarines. Those are probably whales. But those gun camera films, they are not faked. In my estimation, the Navy would not do something like that. So there's something you're seeing. Does it come from somewhere else? I don't have any idea. I'm a practicing Christian. I believe strongly in the book of Genesis that God created the earth and everything in it. If we have people coming from other planets, it puts a hole in my beliefs a little bit. Why does it? Well, first of all, it would just be sort of

Starting point is 00:20:53 of, and I think they call it non-human intelligence, is the kind of more official Pentagon nomenclature now, because it's not necessarily extraterrestrial. I think it's just consciousness that seems to transcend humans. You know, it seems like they're more advanced than us, which is, you know, itself fascinating, but I think that's wholly consistent with biblical texts, you know. Well, it depends. I'm listening to these people that know so much about it. They all say, I really know about it. It's really real. It's really real. They won't tell you what they've seen and they won't tell you who they've talked to. So, and I am now beginning to think we got a Fauci syndrome underway in some of the area you're working.

Starting point is 00:21:37 I watched one of your guys sit here who I know, and I talk to you about this, who absolutely fabricated a total story. So tell the audience what you're talking about. You had a guy interviewed who used to be a neighbor of ours in Walton Creek. Yeah. And we hired him to drive our car to Washington. He then claims that he saw me. What's his name real quick?

Starting point is 00:22:01 Brent Freeman. Okay. He said that I came home after he arrived in Washington and I had been to a secret place. I carried a briefcase chain to my wrist. I had a driver in a limousine. You got to understand. I arrived in Washington as a peon. We didn't have briefcases chain.

Starting point is 00:22:19 We didn't have limousines. We didn't have securities. we didn't go to secret places. I was working in the White House at a lower level. So that's all of I. And then I told him that I'd been locked away for a month and I'd seen people from another planet. It's just total BS.

Starting point is 00:22:35 He says I was like a father to him. I never even knew this kid except as a baby next door. So it was all made up. What elements of the story aren't true? Because did he drive across the country? He drove across with two other friends. We had to move our cars to Washington because I was going back to live there. And I had an appointment in the administration.

Starting point is 00:22:58 And I think they drove, and our dog was in the car too. I knew he was a student at UCLA. I was interesting because my mother went to UCLA, and I always liked to meet UCLA people. He said his father's an artist. That's true. His mother was living next door. We knew the father and the mother, did not know Brandt.

Starting point is 00:23:20 He says he came over and we threw the football together. That didn't happen. We watched telephone, television together. We didn't happen. We had no get-along at all. I was kind of a father figure to him. That didn't happen. But we did get his name because we were looking for some guys to drive the car.

Starting point is 00:23:39 So he agreed to do it and we paid him and they came back. And that was the end of it. I was not working at the White House at the time he came back. I had a very lowly position. I didn't have a briefcase with a handcuff to my wrist. I didn't have a limousine. I didn't have security. All that came much later.

Starting point is 00:24:00 Didn't go to any kind of secret site. I was working in personnel. We were viewing resumes for positions in the government. It had nothing to do with something like that. Never saw him again. So, and at the time you were Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Manpower and Reserve. No. No.

Starting point is 00:24:17 Are you at White House personnel? No, I was one step below that. I was working in the White House political office for Lindnhoff Singer. Okay. As an intern for him. And we were going through early stages of the Reagan administration. It was later that I came in as personnel department, and I wasn't the head of it. What year was that?

Starting point is 00:24:37 It would be June of 81. 81. So that was after Brent had come? Right. Okay. And he said something about a. underground facility in West Virginia? Well, there is. There is a hotel

Starting point is 00:24:51 down there. It's been put out of service now, but it's been built under Eisenhower. I forget which hotel it is. Something Springs. I think it's where Rosefeld died. I'm not sure. I thought it was Greenbrier, maybe? It could be Greenbrier, but they have a huge underground facility where the Congress

Starting point is 00:25:07 and the president were all to be put to run the government. The bunker is basically a giant concrete box that has two-foot-thick concrete walls reinforced with steel all the way around. It's buried under 20 feet of earth. It took 50,000 tons of concrete to build it all. And it was later when I was Secretary of Energy, I got to see that because we were down at Greenbrier, I think it was Greenbrier, playing golf.

Starting point is 00:25:31 And I went and toured that thing. By that time, Greenbrier had been moved up to Maryland and a facility in Maryland, which was the same. And, of course, they have that facility was during the 80s. and they have a system to remove people to preserve the government. I was number 16. I remember because my daughter's sewed a big 16 on the back of my swimsuit. And so you're the 16th person to be moved if they kill everybody above you. So, I mean, it's a facility they do have.

Starting point is 00:26:06 And I'm sure since 1990 they have improved that a lot. And I'm beginning to think there's going to be a lot of that under the ballroom. at the White House because that's a vast system they're building under there. So you have been there a couple times in your career, once in the 80s and once in the 90s? No, not once in the 90s. I went to the Greenbrier.

Starting point is 00:26:28 It would be 86, probably, 87. Okay, got it. So this was after, you'd never, had you ever been before the Brent experience? Never. Interesting. Or anything even like it. Okay.

Starting point is 00:26:42 I'm going to get some flack if I, if I don't offer this. Would we be able to maybe patch in Brent and you could clear up the story and tell him, you know? I'm through with Brent. And he's a young man that's fallen in love with Hollywood and he's got the fallacy syndrome. And he's, you know, he's welcome to it. So you don't want to talk to him? Not really.

Starting point is 00:27:05 Okay. Fair enough. Yeah, I don't know. It's a bummer because he, he seems. I hope he sees the interview and realizes what an idiot he's been. Oh, well, he seems kind of earnest, you know? Yeah, I does, Tony. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:18 So his story's just total and complete BS. Brent, thank you for being here, man. I just did this long interview with John, and he actually brought you up. And he was like, you know, that story is totally made up. And he said he only knew you as a baby. He said he sort of, you know, created some distance, said that, like, You wouldn't come over and play football with him. How does it make you feel just him kind of denying the thing outright?

Starting point is 00:27:52 Two ways. The first way is the obvious, which is disappointment that after all of these years and contextually with disclosure coming out, and a lot of people feeling compelled to tell the truth, a lot of whistleblowers are putting their reputation, and maybe in some cases their life on the line, for this greater good to get the truth. truth out there. You know, and honestly, you know, it's not true. John taught me how to play football. My father was an artist. He was an introvert. John was a man's man. John not only taught me to play football, he got me inspired in football. I was growing up to be an artist, and I ended up playing football all through grade school, junior high high school, because he took the time to teach me how to play

Starting point is 00:28:39 football and we used to watch football games on in his living room. He was a huge redskin fan. He also taught me to be competitive. So I became a Cowboys fan. I am still a Cowboys fan, irrationally. I grew up in California, but it was great to just sit there and be competitive with him on the sofa. So yeah, he can stiff arm me if he wants, but that was our relationship. And that's why I've said in different interviews and on Soundlight and Frequency that he was like a second father to me. I didn't, I was much more than a baby. I lived there next door to him between the ages of six and 12, the formative years. On the other hand, I do have to respect the fact that at the end of our conversation that I had with him that night out on the veranda, I kind of took all

Starting point is 00:29:27 of what he said in, and I said to him, you know, I'm not going to tell other people about this. And he said, well, I'm sure you are. The question is, who's going to believe you? And I didn't really think anything of it at the time. And he said, and by the way, if you use my name and everything, I'm just going to deny it. When was, this exact interaction transpired in 1981, right? Yes. The summer of 1981 was when I had graduated high school and I was then going to go off to college at UCLA. And what was John Harrington's exact position then? I believe it was something to the effect of he was on special assignment for the president. What I heard later through my mom was that he was involved in the ab scam investigation and had been for a period even leading up

Starting point is 00:30:15 to after the election in November and before the administration took over. He was somehow involved in that. But that was as much as we knew. And he didn't tell me when we were talking anything about what he was doing actively. He only told me about this briefing experience he had. There were two things that John said that, you know, aside from this idea that he told me he cried himself to sleep every night. Like that's the kind of the pull quote from that interview. Like, why would a guy at that level be crying himself to sleep every night? It was certainly profound for me because I looked at him as a man's man. Like, so him crying at all seemed odd.

Starting point is 00:30:58 I assumed that he was unburdening himself. I assumed that being the man he was, he would not be. burden his wife and daughters with this truth, but I could see that physically it was a huge burden on him. He had physically looked very haggard. And so, but when he told me all about the alien stuff, I said to him at the end, I said, well, okay, now I think I understand why you were crying yourself to sleep every. And he goes, no, Brent, you don't understand. That was like day three. The implication being is that his briefing took months. And this was almost trivial to him. This was like him throwing me a bone. And so the alien thing feels like a footnote in whatever is kind of going on.

Starting point is 00:31:41 I mean, it's certainly a piece of the puzzle. But we've come to understand on sound like frequency, there's something much bigger going on that has more to do with kind of SI and ESP. And I think that's probably something more that would cause you to cry. Like the idea that reality is not at all what it seems. And there are beings that have access to. into our minds potentially, that's unsettling. That I could see if you're a parent, you might cry yourself to sleep every night,

Starting point is 00:32:10 but not the idea, oh, we have some bodies in a hangar somewhere. That's not tearworthy in my mind. And he said, look, we live in a god-fearing country. Again, 1981, there's only one thing that keeps this world spinning. It gives everybody the control they need. That's the global economy. If you disrupt that by taking away the reason for people to live their lives, everything falls apart. And governments of the world will not be able to control the populace.

Starting point is 00:32:45 So what's the advantage of giving people the truth? And I was like, well, so you're telling me it'll never come out? He said, if it has to. In our lifetime, maybe. The one thing that's most obvious, and Jesse, you must know this yourself. many of your audience does, there are underground facilities in West Virginia, but we did not know about them until the Washington Post, I think it was the post that broke this story in the 90s about Greenbrier in, and there's another one. And Greenbrier was where they were going to

Starting point is 00:33:19 evacuate Congress in the event of nuclear war. So there was a place, but in 1981, nobody knew that. Do you think he was talking about Greenbrier? He didn't say, but again, he was talking about an underground facility in West Virginia. I only, the only thing I knew about West Virginia was that it was west of Virginia. Like, I didn't know anything. What's funny is he, he said he went to Greenbrier, but he said he went in 87. And he was like, yeah, it's just this continuity of government thing where, you know, if there's an attack in D.C., like, you know, that's where the president and Congress goes.

Starting point is 00:33:50 Yeah. So, again, that story was laced with details. He talked about the global economy, how this would disrupt the global economy. He talked about it being a god-fearing nation. I was never raised religiously. So even that term God-fearing nation, it didn't really, I was like, I don't, I think I know what that means, but I'm not even quite sure. I don't need to get into a who shot John with a, you know, a 30-year-old. No, I get it.

Starting point is 00:34:15 The only thing that, you know, you just seem so high integrity and straight up. And then he's been very cool with me too. And he seems very honest and earnest in his retelling. So I don't, I get that obviously he worked. in Hollywood, but I don't think he's like monetizing his story with you. I thought they had a production company. I read somewhere that he and the guy that was with him on your show had a production company. I don't know exactly what they're doing, but they're not, I don't think they're monetizing

Starting point is 00:34:44 this story. I think he just, you know, told it a couple times of podcasts. Any kind of public exposure. I don't care what you say about me. Just say something, you know, that's what they used to believe. Yeah, fair enough. Okay. I'll see if he'll go in front of Congress.

Starting point is 00:35:01 I'm sure he would. I'm sure he'd happily go. If he raise his right hand and swear. Yeah, I think, I think you would. I think you would. That's the sense I get. That's getting him pretty deep at that point. I think a polygraph would be interesting.

Starting point is 00:35:15 I think if you pass that, that would be awesome. And I don't know. I'm willing to do. I mean, if people are that interested in whether this happened or not, I'm happy to do it. Have you made any substantial, off of the story? I mean, it's, we can have an offline talk about the economics of podcasting, but the amount of money that Bryce and I have made off of soundlight and frequency, which is really where the whole story was, you know, disclosed and monetized, as it were, is so far below what my daily rate is in Hollywood and in gaming that it's almost a joke. So, yes, I have been very lightly compensated for some of my time, but this is not a money-making endeavor at all.

Starting point is 00:36:07 It's more just, I've said this before, and I know this can sound disingenuous, but I sat on a lot of my stories, my personal stories, and certainly all of the details of this story until I had cancer and I almost died. and at that moment when I was on my deathbed and watching light beings come to the foot of my bed, I had the sense that there was something I hadn't done and I just wasn't ready. And so all of that kind of doorway went away and I got better and here I am. And my kids said in retrospect, thank God you didn't die because you have so many incredible stories and we would have been the ones telling them secondhand. Right. You should tell your stories. you're still where you got a second chance.

Starting point is 00:36:52 And I thought, you know what? I don't know if that's what I'm supposed to do, but that's what I'm going to do. And so really, that was kind of the impetus for why I even agreed to do sound light and frequency. But the point is, is that, you know, I told a few friends in college, and they kind of just thought it was a fun story.

Starting point is 00:37:09 They didn't really believe me. I told, you know, people I was dating at some point and was getting serious with as kind of a litmus test. Like, okay, I'm going to tell you something now. And if you don't think I'm crazy, then maybe we have a future. But for the most part, people didn't believe me. The first person that really believed me was Bryce Sable when I told him the story.

Starting point is 00:37:30 And he said, well, I mostly believe you because this aligns with a lot of research I've done. See, here's the thing I never used to John Harrington's name until probably 2019 or 20 or something when Ross Coldheart got me on camera and just pushed me so hard that. and he kind of already had known because Bryce had told him, and so he used, and I was like, I couldn't get out of it at this. That was the first time that I used John Harrington's name on camera, because it felt like, okay, well, now people know it's going to come out. But up until then, I was respectful. I told the story, but I didn't actually use his name until that point.

Starting point is 00:38:11 Here's another little interesting data point. When the show was right before it was launching, kind of the week before it premiered, I got a buck slip from John Harrington. I hadn't talked with them in a number of years. But I remember those buck slips, the long vertical kind of like stiff cards and it says from the desk of.

Starting point is 00:38:30 I get one that says from the desk of John Harrington, hey Brent, you finally got your story out there. Congratulations. So he was... Did you save that? It's somewhere in my files. I got to know where it is.

Starting point is 00:38:43 I got to find it because I can't imagine I would have thrown it away. My problem is I'm not an organized person, so I'm going to have to do some hunting. I also, part of me says too, like, you know, I think time is on my side with disclosure coming out. How do I explain the fact that Dave Grush

Starting point is 00:39:04 called me to get insight into how to talk to John Harrington? Why would Dave Grush want to talk to John Harrington if John Harrington doesn't know anything? He said to me, the gist of it was, we've identified John Harrington as one as a very important person who has oral history of a period where a bunch of documentation does not exist in order. I don't mean to malign your next guest. Is it David Gers? David Gryff?

Starting point is 00:39:34 Yeah. Yeah, what about him? So I turned on his testimony of the Senate. Yeah. And listen very carefully to it. He loved it. He was in the center of attention, and he's telling him all this stuff by not telling him. anything. And then afterwards, he's interviewed on the street by about 20 reporters, and he's doing

Starting point is 00:39:52 the same thing. He's loving it, and he's the center of attention. I'm thinking to myself... So you're not a fan of his? He's having a good time. No, I talked to him on the phone. You did. You spoke to David Gresh. I did, and I said, you know, I respect his career. He's 20 years in the Air Force as a intelligence officer, but Washington is full of people who are looking to get into the mix and be recognized and I don't think David Grush is a good example of that I don't think he's all right attention seeking he he's um you know he handled the presidential daily brief and he was up for actually a big promotion he's sort of got completely uh all these reprisals and kind of maligned in his career and ended up having to having to leave because of wanting more

Starting point is 00:40:36 transparency on this issue so I think he was on a pretty good track before this and I don't think it's done him any favor all right well I take it back calling him a fouchy, but I will say this. I would like David to tell me specifically what he saw and specifically who he talked to, not generalities. Yeah, no, I think a lot of people are waiting on that and would be very interested. Do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash? A deceased. They were killed. They were killed? So we killed them. Yeah. They are mortal. So how did we kill them? Yeah. Do we shoot them?

Starting point is 00:41:14 Yeah. We shot the reptilians. Yeah. Jesus. Yeah. So you felt like your conversations with him were, were they productive? No, he wrote me a beautiful letter, long, two-page letter. Okay.

Starting point is 00:41:26 And he asked if I would call him, and I called him and we talked. And I said, look, David, I don't know anything about UFOs. I can't add to your knowledge. I was approached last November by a journalist formerly with Politico. been shizzling or something to that effect. And he said that he had heard my story going around about John Harrington and wanted to get my side of the story. And this was pre-soundlight and frequency.

Starting point is 00:42:00 So I said, well, I'm going to tell my story in the podcast. So when that comes out, you'll have everything you need to know. And he said, okay, well, just so you understand, John says he doesn't even remember you. You might have been his neighbor. He has no recollection, but you never drove any cars across the country, and he certainly never talked to you about aliens. Did he publish that, that journalist? Well, that journalist has reached back out to me because he is oddly, coincidentally, this week or end of last week, he suddenly decided the story was viable or vital, and he wanted to give me one last chance. to kind of refute everything, which I denied. But he said that John told him that he didn't even know you

Starting point is 00:42:53 or he didn't remember knowing you, or what was the... He said he didn't know me at all the way that I claimed. I might have been his neighbor. He really wasn't clear. He had no memory of that. But he completely denied driving the cars across the country. So either his memory was coming back to him over time by the between November of last year and when he spoke to you. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:43:19 But I remember the impact of hearing that. I talked to my mom who always had stayed close with John and his particularly his wife, Lois, and said, yeah, John said he didn't even remember us. And she, I mean, she honestly started crying. She was like, the Harrington's were some of our best friends. John threw me my 33rd birthday at his restaurant, Victoria's Station. I have photos of it. How much time elapsed between his first outreach to you and, you know, now? So it was November of, like, November last year, like November 23rd or something, last year.

Starting point is 00:43:55 And then we exchanged texts kind of on and off over the holidays. And the last contact I had with him was January 3rd, I believe. And then literally, last week, out of the blue, he suddenly felt this story had juice. So almost a year went by and radio silence and then all of a sudden pops back up when I happened to be interviewing John. Yeah. I mean, is that the phenomenon or is it something else? I don't know. So you know nothing of any of these sort of like a reverse engineering. or crash retrievals or, you know, I think the one that feels most ubiquitous to me

Starting point is 00:44:43 is just UFOs showing up at nuclear sites all over the country. There's a great book called UFOs and nukes. And you have 170 of these guys who are, you know, missile security, radar operators. They're super honest guys. And they don't get into that job to be famous. And they come out and they say they see tick-tack, saucers, orbs, sometimes tampering with the nukes.

Starting point is 00:45:03 When you say a nuke site, Do you mean commercial electricity generation or defense sites? I mean Air Force bases that are, you know, Air Force Base is in national labs, but specifically places that house nuclear weapons. So places like Malmstrom, Air Force Base in Montana, Elsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota, F.E. Warren, places like that, Savannah Riversite, Seal Beach, and even Vandenberg, which is just, you know, missile testing, as you know. So the Chinese send a balloon over, and it looks at sites.

Starting point is 00:45:34 And you're saying someone else is probably sending something else. Seems like right when we built nukes, something showed up and it wasn't human. It goes back until the 40s? Goes back until the 40s, yeah. I don't know. I don't have any information to give you. I will tell you area 51 has been suspect for years. There's a lot going on there on defense-related activities,

Starting point is 00:46:01 but nothing that I know about with any kind of UFOs. Did you ever know a guy named Harold Malmgren by any chance? Yeah. What did you know about him? I met him and I know the name and that's about all. Was he, what was he? He wouldn't remember me. No, I bet you he would, but how did you get to know him? I think it would have been in one of our briefings at the Energy Department.

Starting point is 00:46:30 Okay. He has to tell me what he did. I might come back to me. He was, well, he did a bunch of things. He was an economic advisor for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. And he was doing a lot of trade stuff. And, but his closest mentor was a guy named Richard Bissell, who founded Area 51, was the deputy director of the CIA. And, yeah, it's just a fascinating guy.

Starting point is 00:46:56 So, yeah, I was curious to hear. I would have read the name, I think. I'm not sure I met him then. The name sounds very familiar. He definitely would have been involved in some ways with the Reagan White House. And the reason I bring him up is because at the end of his life, he claimed to have held UFO material that came down from a high-altitude nuclear test in the Marshall Islands. So there's this test called Blue Gill Triple Prime, part of the Starfish Prime test series. And material seemed to come out of the sky and then it made its way to Sandy accomplish.

Starting point is 00:47:30 complex, and this guy Lawrence Preston Geis, who was the head of the Atomic Energy Commission, Albuquerque branch, ended up founding DARPA. He had this material in his hands, and he gave it to Harold Maumgren. Harold Maumgren was in charge of the kind of cost assessments for this whole, you know, missile defense program. He said, well, he reached for some stuff sitting here on his desk. These are things that have come down. I'm looking at. Yeah, this is the round rocks, you know.

Starting point is 00:48:04 So you're looking at like anomalous material? Yeah. Debris. Yeah. I know he's handling. Wow, that's amazing. And Harold apparently said that this whole thing was actually devised to take down UFOs. And that made its way into, you know, Edward Teller's Excalibur designs for Strategic Defense Initiative,

Starting point is 00:48:27 which scaled up this sort of UFO crash retreat. program. I don't have any knowledge on that. I would ask you, where is the material today? Yeah, I don't know. Why aren't they carbon dating it and telling us what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, did you see anything at the time that you felt kind of was really ontologically

Starting point is 00:48:47 shocking where you were like, the reality I know from the civil side world might be turned on its head a little bit or a little different than I thought it was? We heard rumors from protesters and things like that. They're always making up stuff. I used to flyspec our budget. And I found something in the budget that really bothered me. Huge item. And I wanted to know what it was, and I said, you don't need to know this.

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Starting point is 00:51:08 Huge item. And I wanted to know what it was, and I said, you don't need to know this. What was it? It was the F-117 fighter, being developed our first fighter that was undetectable by radar. and it was based in the Energy Department land in the Nevada Desert underground. And the Air Force did not want me to see it, but was in our budget. So I finally said, I want to see it. I went out and sat in one.

Starting point is 00:51:39 You know, they flew them only at night until one crash, and then it became very public. So it's not classified anymore. But I know there are projects that are so secretive that there are great efforts to keep them. There was a budget line item from the 80s called the Aurora. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It was like a Lockheed program. Billions of dollars as well. Well, Lockheed Skunk Works are famous.

Starting point is 00:52:06 That's where F1CIM team was built in the UR planes. They're all built right in the Burbank Airport. Exactly. Right in that building right next to them. Did you ever meet Ben Rich, the head of Lockheed Skunk Works? What did you think of him? You can't. I met him.

Starting point is 00:52:21 Okay. And they come out and they shake. weekends and you know you're a government official and they need the money. Did you ever get a sense that he knew something about UFOs? Do you think UFOs were being used as a cover for these high altitude recon planes? So obviously you have the YouTube spy plane and SR 71 that SR 71 is a big one. Everybody knows about those now. Do you think that UFOs are just kind of the follow-ups of those things? Or to me it's obvious there's something else going on that where they seem to show up around nuclear sites, nuclear detonations.

Starting point is 00:52:54 Well, you're asking me to really speculate. I can't do that on that. Fair enough. I need some sort of concrete evidence or, I mean, if you had that material and it was analyzed and it turned out to be a super moon rock or something, you know, maybe we could talk more about it. Well, okay, super concrete example would be Oak Ridge National Laboratory. So as part of this pursue executive branch act, Trump is now, you know, releasing documents on UFOs. And at Oak Ridge, in the 50s, there's a technical document that talks about magnesium and bismuth with isotope ratios that, you know, seem like they're bonded on an atomic level, which we definitely, we can't do now, let alone back then.

Starting point is 00:53:41 And they're studying this thing and it's a total enigma. And so this is an official document that the White House is kind of endorsing. Is it still being studied? Yes. Yeah. In fact, we're in the Bay right now. At Stanford, there's a professor named Gary Nolan, who actually has another piece of magnesium bismuth from a crash on the beach in Brazil, an ubatuba. So, yeah, we did a mass spectrometry analysis of some of those pieces with a highly sensitive instrument. And one of them was anomalous.

Starting point is 00:54:12 The magnesium ratios were way off. I mean, not even close to being natural. And it's also, yeah, magnesium bismuth with isotope ratios. I think the magnesium isotope ratios specifically are just way out of whack for anything you'd ever expect on Earth. The purity level is, you know, standards of deviations higher. So the next question for him is, where did it come from? I don't know. I'm asking, you know, you had.

Starting point is 00:54:40 He has it. Yeah. And he's written a report on it. Yeah. And it's otherworldly. Yeah. Where did you get it? I found that on a beach?

Starting point is 00:54:49 In Brazil. In the 50s? Yes. What was a Stanford professor going in Berkeley on a beach? No. So there was a fisherman in Ubutuba Brazil on the beach, sees this thing flying around in all sorts of ways that, you know, transcended any sort of flight patterns at the time.

Starting point is 00:55:05 This was before drones ever were a thing, let alone in Brazil. And, you know, this thing seemed to kind of like explode. In the air, there was this like, you know, almost like a big event where like it flamed out. And a little piece of it, which could have been almost like exhaust or like slag from it, came down. And this fisherman retrieved it. It then ended up making its way to, I believe, Jacques Valle, who is this sort of French godfather of UFO research, who publishes his address online. He then gives it to Gary Nolan, who can do mass spectrometry on it because he's this, you know, official scientist at Stanford. And so that's the provenance.

Starting point is 00:55:45 So the most interesting thing you said to me, something happened to it in the air, it exploded or it came apart or was shot down or something caused part of it to fall. The question is, where's the rest of it? And if it's subject to failure in the air, what failed and who caused it to fail? That type of thing. Those questions hit me before. before a rock, a guy picked up on a beach and has gone through five hands and has ended up at

Starting point is 00:56:20 Stanford, which I've lost some of my faith in Stanford, even though I'm alumni. Well, the isotope ratios speak for themselves. Those are strange, you know. But yeah, no, I hear you. What exactly interfered with it? I don't know. Some people think that directed energy or high-powered radar seems to interfere with the flight paths of these UFOs, and that's why they come down. You know, that was sort of talked about and, you know, a lot of these documentaries that are being endorsed at the highest levels. So, I mean, I have seen laser technology that could bring down almost anything. You know, Reagan also made some interesting statements that I forgot to bring up when we were, when we were speaking in person. You know,

Starting point is 00:57:04 in 1974, while he was governor of California, his pilot was a guy named Bill Painter. And they were flying in a Cessna near Bakersfield. And apparently, Painter described basically this steady light, basically UFO, 100 yards behind the plane that suddenly accelerated seemed to elongate and then shot upwards at a 45-degree angle. And Reagan said to Painter, let's follow it as kind of a joke. Did you ever hear anything about this? I know you had been, you know, alongside Reagan for many years, even pre-his presidency or his advanced man.

Starting point is 00:57:46 No, I heard about that. And just to add to that, it was right near that time. I'm not sure it was exactly that same trip when we were coming into Chico for an event. That would be during the same event. Pater was flying and we came roaring in on a runway, landed, and went screaming down until the end. And I said, where's the crowd? And Pater has landed at the wrong airport. So we took off again and flew farther north and landed at Chico and had the event. So these things happen, I guess, you know. So do you think, but it seems like maybe these things are otherworldly, like they're not, you know. That's the word that gets me, otherworldly.

Starting point is 00:58:32 I want to know where the world is. But in the 40s and 50s, who would have built these things? You know, you could come up with some sort of, you know, ex-Nazi boys in Brazil narrative where they had exotic, you know, flight capabilities that they were building. They would have built them in Hollywood. They built anything in Hollywood. So, but you think that this is all explained by Hollywood, all of the UFO settings at nuclear sites? Jesse, this goes back decades.

Starting point is 00:59:01 Look at, well, in the 30s when, what's his name, had the War of the World's broadcasts of the country. Orson Wells. Orson Wells broadcast War of the World. The country went nuts and everybody believed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. This is not new. No, it's not, but, I mean, simultaneous to that, you had, you know, you were in Los Angeles at the time. There was something called the Battle of Los Angeles, which made its way all the way to George Marshall, who was Secretary of State at the time,

Starting point is 00:59:29 where a UFO was seen all the way down the coast of California from, you know, Santa Monica into Long Beach into San Diego, and it was tracked all the way. So there is kind of a longstanding tradition of real sightings, too. And where did it go? Nobody knows. But, you know, so I think on the one hand,

Starting point is 00:59:51 the first rule of kind of intelligence or defense is if you don't understand a thing, don't admit it. But I don't think that's right. I think if you want to make progress on a thing, I think you just let it out, you open source it. It's like the transistor, right? In the 50s, you know, when the transistor really came online, they were thinking maybe this, we should apply the invention secrecy act to this.

Starting point is 01:00:12 Maybe we should clamp down on it. We don't want, you know, the Soviets or the Chinese to get this or whatever. And then at another point, they go, no, we're going to let it out. And then we're going to run fast as hell and we're going to win. And, you know, why can't we do the same thing on, you know, this sort of stuff? If something exists in the realm of fundamental science and ontological truth, you know, I think the people deserve to know. So with my background and my age, I'm looking at AI, which I don't understand, and I've seen the fakery on AI. Well, along my grandson has done a couple of things for me to play jokes on friends.

Starting point is 01:00:52 Fascinating. He took a friend of mine, dressed him up in a coat and tie. This guy's a guy's, down a Newport Beach, dressed him up in a black tie, coat and tie, put him on the stage of the Grammy's receiving an award by Barack Obama, okay? All that done just like that. So I don't know what you can trust in the AI now that's coming to us. I would trust a naval gun camera and some of these shots that are on the TV now, but from here on out, I'm going to be a skeptic on what I see. Because a lot of these guys, like there's this guy, Jay Stratton, another guy, Jim Likatsky. A lot of these guys have really deep histories and, you know, intelligence. They're, you know, senior officers, intelligence officers, in one case, a rocket scientist.

Starting point is 01:01:39 And they say they've gone inside these crafts. I mean, actually, under your tenure, this guy named Bob Lazar, I don't know. They've gone inside the craft. That's what they say, inside a hangar. They've gone inside a craft of non-human origin. You told us because you were allowed to tell us that our government has a UFO in its possession and has been able to access the inside of it, right? Yes.

Starting point is 01:02:01 And this guy, Bob Lazar, said he worked at S4, Area 51 in 1989, or I guess he came out in 89, but yeah, it was between 88 and 89. And he said he got the job through Edward Teller. Have you ever seen there's a video of Edward Teller being questioned on his relationship with you? Yeah, yeah, of course. And if I ask you on camera, if you know Bob Lazare, can you just say no? I will sit silently. And so it's just so fascinating.

Starting point is 01:02:32 What did he do? He went inside. He actually worked on reverse engineering the craft. So there were a few different initiatives. And one was seeing if you could derive any sort of directed energy principles. The other was seeing if you could recreate the propulsion of the craft. So that was a really big part of what he was doing. He was trying to stabilize, you know, heavy elements, do things like that.

Starting point is 01:02:57 So there's this element 115 that they found. So I would say this. He would be telling the truth if he was reverse engineering equipment in Area 51 because there is equipment there that we acquired from other governments that we're using to develop certain things. I don't think that's all classified yet, but. There's a lot of classified stuff there that I wouldn't talk about. For sure. But it does seem like these UFOs show up around nuclear.

Starting point is 01:03:35 There's even a case also in the White House, you know, Pursue Act, 2015, you know, Pantex facility in Texas where they assemble the nuclear weapons. And there's this diamond, you know, shaped UFO. And it's hovering there. It's caught by radar, two missile security officers. And so it's hard to, I feel like, deny that there's this kind of longstanding ubiquitous connection between nuclear. And even in, I just got back from Japan and in their, next to their civilian energy grid in Fukushima, they see UFOs all the time so much so that they built a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s. So, you know, I think there's a pattern. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:13 Well, that's, that's something I didn't know about. We've, we've been to Fukushima. Okay, nice. And I'm happy to point out we were with there, the guy that led the delegation on what happened. And Fukushima did not kill anybody. It was the typhoon that. killed him that drowned them but the reactor itself was not flawed the um there's a video though from that disaster where UFOs are everywhere and it's almost like they're doing cleanup which is just

Starting point is 01:04:42 so fascinating step stephen spielberg actually made a documentary about it yeah well i think stephen spillberg stuff is amazing it's amazing it's just amazing and he's such a believer and he's he you know says i have a sneaking suspicion that you know this isn't fiction what i'm doing with disclosure did. You got to you got to worry what Hollywood does. I mean, they do change everything. But I think it's not just Hollywood.

Starting point is 01:05:06 Did you ever work with Bobby Ray Inman? All the time. Good friend. So there you so, you know, very high up guy. He was, you know, head of the NSA, deputy director of the CIA at the same time. No, we still see each other. Oh, that's amazing. He's up at the Bohemian Grove. Oh, very cool. So he actually

Starting point is 01:05:23 is on record talking about. He says, I don't know when the UFO truths will ever come out, you know, but, you know, they will at some point. And he seemed like he was very deep on this issue. Anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be become available for technological research outside of the military circles. Again, I honestly don't know. Ten years ago, the answer would have been no. Yeah. Whether as time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it.

Starting point is 01:05:57 There's a possibility. I'll ask him. Okay, yeah, please. I'd love to interview him. That would be amazing. Oh, he's a neat guy. He founded, do you know, about the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office?

Starting point is 01:06:09 No. Okay, that's public now. Is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it Bob Bellard elected by that too? The guy they found the Titanic? I think so. Yeah, he was close to him.

Starting point is 01:06:20 Yeah. He runs all the deep submersible stuff. Yeah, it seems like they might be finding things on the sea floor. that are kind of exotic. Anything they want. Yeah. And that's what this guy Bob Lazar at Area 51. He said that the crafty, or they found,

Starting point is 01:06:37 one of the crafts they found was found on the sea floor. So this is, you make an interesting point that I forgot to mention. Yeah. I was thinking about this the other day, just because I saw another picture of one. There's so much about the bottom of the ocean that we don't know. Yes. There could be, instead of another planet,

Starting point is 01:06:56 it could all be coming from the bottom of the ocean. Do you think there's a chance of that? I have no idea. Have you seen any evidence around that? I've seen all these crazy fish they're finding, and the sunken ships they're now bringing up, and the Russian sub they found. I don't know. Do you think there's something to like a movie like James Cameron's The Abyss, where you have, you know. They have gills and they're swimming around.

Starting point is 01:07:20 Yeah, there's some sort of, yeah, exactly. Only in Hollywood. Alien intelligence, you know, underwater. Yeah, but Hollywood, as you know, they. can get there was actually a position called the official CIA liaison to Hollywood and it was Chase Brandon was the guy's name and he was literally it was his job to like ensure that. What a great job. Why not? Yeah, I guess it's to ensure, you know, that things were done right and portrayed right. And I think he even advised on, if you remember Robert De Niro's character and

Starting point is 01:07:48 meet the parents, he was like the CIA agent. That was, you know, Chase Brandon doing the advising. Chase Brandon wrote a book about UFOs, and it's called Cryptos Conundrum. And he starts the book off with this Francis Bacon quote, and he says that, you know, some truths are so strange that they have to be hidden in fiction. And so he says, read between the lines in this book, and you'll understand the truth. And it's about this sort of elite, majestic committee that came together to sort of guard these primordial secrets around how the world worked. It's fascinating.

Starting point is 01:08:22 Well, committees come and go and people die and people get old. If you had a committee from the 50s and 40s fooling with this thing, it would die. They would not have a life of its own forever. Yeah, that might be true. Yeah. Harold Malmgren, before he passed, he mentioned that sort of committee and he mentioned him being on their radar and him maybe possibly having worked with them. There are so many committees and so many presidential appointments of boards and commissions that, I mean, there's 15,000 of them. Did you ever get the sense that the politics that feels surface level, there's something deeper going on, kind of undergirding the decision making going on internationally?

Starting point is 01:09:12 Like, there's this sense, I think, that people sometimes have that the civilian elected leaders are operating sometimes within, padded walls or sort of, you know, confines. Did you ever get that sense or did you feel like they had full latitude to, you know, kind of do what they want? Obviously, within the confines of bureaucratic inertia that they faced. But I mean more metaphysically. No, it's within the confines of politics. Sure. Because every single one of them wants the job wants to be reelected. And so they only operate. And I got to tell you, this is absolute truth. in the Congress, Senate, House, they want their job. And their wives are telling them at home, don't screw this up, Henry.

Starting point is 01:09:54 We're not going back to Oklahoma. And I think these are political things. If it looks like it's going to be controversial, they'll shy away from it every time. The UFO is a different thing. There's so much happening outside. They may see this is a great issue to leap on, and I never have to take a position. You think it's a distraction? Oh, absolutely.

Starting point is 01:10:20 Okay. Sure. Congressman says, I want on that committee. We're going to investigate this. I'm going to be headlines every day. Yeah, right. We got all these cool guys to talk to us out there under oath. Was there anything in the world of exotic propulsion or gravity manipulation you ever heard about?

Starting point is 01:10:38 Gravity or manipulation, no. Okay. Propulsion, yeah, always. Exotic propulsion. You have an issue with naval submarines. Propulsion is the highest issue, I think, silence. They need to be quiet. And they go through all kinds of things to keep them quiet.

Starting point is 01:11:00 Like, especially designed propellers, all kinds of machinery that is that can't rattle and shake. Now they are ejecting. certain things on the exterior or the hall as it moves to keep it quiet going through the water. I mean, propulsion was always on the front table of the naval reactor program. Fascinating. Yeah, it's just a... But if I told you, there is an airplane powered by nuclear power sitting in a hangar in Idaho Falls. Would you believe me? I might. I'd be open to it.

Starting point is 01:11:42 What if I just made that up? It's, yeah, I don't know. Do you think that that's possible? It is. It's true. Okay. It's never flown. Never flown.

Starting point is 01:11:53 Somebody figured out it might crash. Whoa. Spread nuclear material all over the place. That's wild. So it's just sitting there. Yep. It's just this sort of like... Sits in a hangar.

Starting point is 01:12:03 I know there was Project Orion. Like Curtis Lameh wanted to do nuclear propulsion, Freeman Dyson was working on this thing, and it ended up, you know, JFK was very against it. So it ended up getting nixed. But I didn't know about this aircraft. Well, the government's done some crazy things.

Starting point is 01:12:17 Howard Hughes built that plane, by the way. Wild. Just like the Goulmar Explorer and the rest of them. Look at Eisenhower. I went into Adams for Peace. He was fracking oil in the 50s with nuclear weapons. So the oil would flow. That's insane.

Starting point is 01:12:32 Then somebody figured out when they pulled the oil up, it was radioactive. They said, now what do we do? So the government is not beyond doing crazy things. Especially back then, it was like we were in full count. like the high altitude nuclear test, they would just burn holes in the Van Allen belt. You know, the first time. And there was like, I think there were even like calculations being done by the scientists involved saying there is a, you know, sub one, but real percentage chance that this ends the world. And they're like, but we should still try that, you know, sort of, that was

Starting point is 01:13:05 the mentality. Well, supposedly that's what Oppenheimer said before they let off the first test. I think that's right. At Trinity, I might even be conflating that. Yeah, at Trinity, they said, you know, we don't know what's going to happen. Put on your glasses and keep your head down. Totally. Do you think that, you know, something happened maybe at Roswell? You know, that was obviously the site of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron led by Curtis Lameh. It was the site of all of our tactical nukes at the time. Do you think that maybe a UFO came down then?

Starting point is 01:13:35 No. Okay. Fair enough. So what do you think, do you think that the UFO issue just completely sputters out? because there's nothing to it, or do you think there might be something to it? Well, one of you guys is going to have to dig up some new evidence. I think there's a lot of evidence.

Starting point is 01:13:49 I really do. Okay, I want to see some material. You can drive to Stanford now and we'll show you material. I'm going to see something in Stanford? Yeah. You'd see the material I just discussed. Give me his name again. Gary Nolan.

Starting point is 01:14:02 Gary Nolan. Tenured professor. What's his age? He's very well respected. I don't know. He's probably in his 40s. Does he work? on the slack, the linear accelerator down there?

Starting point is 01:14:14 I don't know. I don't think so. No. He has a microbiology lab, but he's a total polymath. He's very smart. And he's... The guy I liked was the guy that entered into the COVID sickness and said the masks were all BS, and he's now running the National Foundation.

Starting point is 01:14:29 Jay Batacharya. That guy's smart. He's great. Yeah. They got some good people down there. For sure. So I wouldn't question this guy, but if he hasn't seen a UFO or seen one of the little people or visited the inside of it. He has seen some little people. He's seen them. Yeah, and he's seen a craft too. Yeah. Okay. We're in a brave new world. This is not unbelievable from Stanford. No, it's, it's,

Starting point is 01:14:53 you'd be surprised. You have a foundation at Harvard. You have a foundation at Stanford dedicated to finding extraterrestrial life. Not only that, but the, the kind of leaders of both foundations are, you know, tenured professors who basically are bought in to the idea that UFOs are showing up. So they smell government money. That's what it's about. That might be your take. I don't know. I think they're a little more earnest than that. Well, at least Gary is. They got, they got Musk wanting to go to Mars. Okay, so they can reach that far. And they've got a new telescope that's going to see everything out there. How are they going to establish all this? What are they going to get? What are they going to get one information and how are they going to get it?

Starting point is 01:15:36 Hmm. Well, now there's actually an astronomer who's gone through the Palomar Observatory plates. That's right outside, Illinois. Exactly. And it was the most prominent observatory in use in the 40s and 50s. And she has found a bunch of transients that essentially look like UFOs. They look like flat mirror-like objects. Things that are extremely flat and extremely reflective. Wow. Like mirrors.

Starting point is 01:16:02 And that makes it more fun. Like mirrors. Mirrors. glass, not something, not a stone, not a rock. Right. Not ice. And this is not round, flat. This is from the Palomar Observatory before we had satellites in space. Yes. So that's fascinating. And what's really interesting, so she's Stockholm University, very, you know, reputable astrophysicist. And they look like UFOs showing up. And then there's actually a PhD at Vanderbilt who did a follow-up study. And he correlates these transients with showing up around nuclear detonations. So they're more likely, 70% more likely to show up 24 hours before or after

Starting point is 01:16:43 a nuclear detonation in the 50s. It's really fascinating. That is fascinating. Yeah. So I do think there's a connection there. So here's what I say to you, Jesse. Stay on this and get the answer. I would love to hear the answer. I will. And it's your area and you're on top of it. And I don't know anything about it. But I'm fascinated. This is the kind of stuff I'd love to know about. Well, I appreciate the encouragement. I'm a citizen. Citizens should know about this. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:10 Is there anything? Yeah, I'm with you. I think it's really important. Is there anything outside of UFOs where you think maybe something fundamental about science? Like, parapsychology might be an example, like sort of mind matter connection stuff. Did you ever bump into any of that? No. I do believe sincerely that there are people that can see the future.

Starting point is 01:17:33 Yeah. I have personally seen that. And it's been declassified. There's a CIA remote viewing program. This is not about CIA. I don't know about their program. I just know that there are people that my wife and I have met in real life that can predict the future. That's amazing.

Starting point is 01:17:50 Yeah, it is amazing. Yeah. No, I agree. I think there are modalities of knowing that we just don't understand right now. And I know famously, Reagan and Nancy got a lot of flack for having an astrologer. But I think... That was her, not him. Okay, that was more her.

Starting point is 01:18:05 Got it. But, you know, I think ultimately, you know, I don't know. I don't think it's so cut and dry how we come to know things. And I think human intuition is much trippier than we realize. Sure, I can, my wife and I communicate, we'll be thinking of the same thing at the same time. There you go.

Starting point is 01:18:23 I mean, I'll be all saying, couldn't we have so and so for dinner? And she says, we're going to have someone sober dinner. Yeah. I mean, that's coincidence, maybe. But do you think that we'll get any sort of disclosure from Trump, any sort of, you know, grand unveiling of truths here? I hesitate to predict anything from Trump. What's your, do you think he's sort of shooting from the hip or what's your, how do you think he operates?

Starting point is 01:18:47 I think he's going to, believe it or not, I don't, your listener is not all going to agree, but I think he's going to go down as a historic president. How so? You may not like the personality of the individual, but what he's doing. is incredible. Well, I think he's taking the kind of negotiating business mind, and he's sort of porting it into, you know, the White House. And I think at times it feels a little callous and art of the deal. You know, he's sort of whipping people around or something.

Starting point is 01:19:16 But I think simultaneously there are people who don't realize there's a method to the madness and that there is some real strategy going into it. They're going to be writing about his presidency for years. Do you think that? Yeah. simultaneously though some of the same things we were talking about earlier that like punting hard problems to future generations i don't think that's gotten better it's been going on for years yeah pentagon makes a absolute rule out of that all the all of the government programs have what they call quote out years they will never sit down with you and define the end of the government program in fact name one government program that has gone out of business because it has accomplished what it was supposed to do.

Starting point is 01:20:02 Nothing. I'll do you one better. And, you know, the inverse example of that, I'll name you, a hundred programs that haven't worked and are this sort of bridge to nowhere cargo cults that, you know, gets funded every year. It's crazy. That's right.

Starting point is 01:20:18 We're still doing it. We're still giving Stanford's Lennar Accelerator money every year and it's so out of date you can't believe it. Do you think we ever made, you know, there's this rumor that there's like Pons and Fleischman that we had this sort of breakthrough in cold fusion possibly in the 90s or 2000? I think the jury's out on that. There's some really smart minds working on that problem, and there may be a total breakthrough. I hope there is, frankly.

Starting point is 01:20:43 Yeah. Because I think all forms of energy are necessary. Well, you're talking from the lowest part of arrays, solar arrays, to energy efficiency programs. It's all necessary. you say the jury's still out, did you see any evidence that maybe we've created some sort of preliminary breakthrough at some point? Well, look at the things in the past, like, polio, years. It was a plague on humanity. Boom, one day, Dr. Sox solves it. Nobody knew how, and then he figured it out. I mean, I think all that's possible. Interesting. Yeah, I believe so, too, and I hope so sincerely.

Starting point is 01:21:25 Did you ever face, you know, you mentioned having to clean up a lot of elements of the DOE and how it was kind of disorganized. Yes. Sort of the crown jewels of American defense doesn't really exist with the DOD. It really existed with the DOE. Did you ever feel like you had to fend off all sorts of foreign adversaries and spies and people with ulterior motives when it came to? Yes.

Starting point is 01:21:47 We had a lot of espionage in the Energy Department. You remember the, no, I don't think you'll remember him. There was a spy called Win Ho Lee, who was operating in the Energy Department in Livermore in Los Alamos. We knew who he was, but he was definitely a Chinese spy. And there were others. But Wenholy was the famous case that finally broke.

Starting point is 01:22:09 I called my friend Ed Meese, who was Attorney General at the time, still a very close friend. And we worked together on that. And several other espionage cases. There's no doubt that our government is infiltrated by foreign countries on many, many levels. whether it is through the diplomatic corps or whether it is outside of that.

Starting point is 01:22:33 And we even have some of our own citizens participating in that. We haven't caught them all, I'm sure. Well, a good example is a later Secretary of Energy. I'm sure you're familiar with Bill Richardson, who, you know, was also governor of New Mexico. And it seems like, you know, there was this kind of siphoning off of, you know, American nuclear trade secrets with this sort of promise software. Are you familiar with this? that Robert Maxwell, you know, who obviously is intimately connected with Epstein, sold to our national labs, and it seemed like, you know, they were just giving away or nuclear...

Starting point is 01:23:06 I think Richard Sim was under Clinton. Clinton. That transfer of important technology from the energy department took place, more important, the transfer of technology from the Commerce Department under Clinton and from the defense department. You'll notice every single Chinese fighter looks like an American fighter, F-15. We took all the limits off technology transfer, and it flowed. And they got money for it. They set up fundraising groups. It goes on and on and on. There has been a lot of corruption in our political system, and there still is today. You can't say that we are clean and we've

Starting point is 01:23:55 solved all the problems. The only thing we can do is stay ahead of the other people in our research and development, and that'll probably save us. That's why this AI thing is so interesting. Yeah, now the Department of Energy has this Genesis project, which is sort of, I think, a way to collate and collect all of the information from all of the national labs and run it through AI and then see what comes out the other end. Are you familiar with this? I'm not, but it doesn't surprise me. you roll in your eyes. What are your thoughts there? It's typical of a big dollar program that probably will go nowhere. Hmm. Hmm. Was there anything that you feel like wasn't necessarily a big

Starting point is 01:24:39 dollar program that was underinvested in, that you feel like we should be investing more in today when it comes to frontier science? I believe two things hit me. They're both in the defense area. I think the naval submarine program was underfunded. I think it's probably the most devastating program we have today and weapon we have. They're totally undetectable. They can travel anywhere in the world. They can launch missiles everywhere. It's unclassified now, but our missiles have 12 warheads in them.

Starting point is 01:25:14 All can be independently targeted. And I've been in Pantex. I've been down in the pits. When you said the guys are circling above, It is open. You can't see a. They've got the weapons on a lazy Susan that's going around, everybody's putting their parts together.

Starting point is 01:25:31 It's fascinating. He would love it. He'd love seeing it. Most of my time is fought against protesters trying to wipe out the white train or go to the nuclear site in Nevada. We were arresting people. They're having demonstrations. I think the Navy submarine program is underfund.

Starting point is 01:25:53 I think the nuclear weapon program is underfunded. People are afraid of it. They have, for some reason, the public equates a nuclear reactor, a commercial reactor with a nuclear weapon. It's a terrible mistake. There was a movie in the 50s called The China Syndrome where a reactor melted and went through the earth and ended up in China. It scared everybody. And then we had architects designed nuclear plants with these futuristic cones, which were cooling stations. Didn't have to be there. French don't use that. It gave a kind of a negative feeling for the reactors. So it all led to the ending of nuclear testing, which was taking place in Nevada. Now the testing is all done on computers. It's not enough.

Starting point is 01:26:49 the weapons contain an item called tritium that's put in in Pinellas down in Florida. Tridium degrades. So we need to check all the time. Is the stockpile active? Is it good? And we need to test. So I would like to see that program plused up. It also feels like a lot of our science has moved from public sector to private sector.

Starting point is 01:27:15 And so there are companies like, are you familiar with SAIC out here by any of you? chance science applications international corporation i know the name i've read about it what are they doing they were they were actually the largest contractor one of the largest contractors for the strategic defense initiative and yeah and they were doing really advanced science they were actually doing working on remote viewing stuff that they inherited from the CIA this is all public information and then yeah bobby ranman was on the board there and they were sort of you know seemed to possibly be involved with UFO crash retrieval and recovery stuff too. So, yeah. I'm going to ask Bobby. I got to know. We got to talk to Bobby. He is so cool. You know, in the Navy hierarchy,

Starting point is 01:28:01 he went to Annapolis. All the admirals were here and Bobby's here. Do you think he would ever go on record and talk about UFOs? He'd talk and he's so political, you wouldn't learn a thing. He actually a buddy of mine interviewed him and he he was very kind of, you know, held his arms up and he was very sort of defensive. But he was, he was, he was very collegial as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it just seems like you're suggesting here that you're aware of retrieved UFOs being studied by the military. No, no, I would not. We're not absolutely without retrieved UFO. I have high confidence.

Starting point is 01:28:39 Oh, he's a wonderful man. You don't get four stars in the Navy by not being. a politician. Yeah, but he did, there is a, there's another phone call with him where he fully just starts talking about UFOs and how it might come out at some point. Maybe he wants a little press. I don't know. He's not above it. Well, that cuts against what you just said about him. So I don't know. But yeah, it's an interesting topic because there's so much circumstantial evidence, so much, so beyond the threshold that, you know, of thinking there might not be there there. There's clearly there's something there.

Starting point is 01:29:13 and then you run into a lot of dead ends as well, you know. And it's just, it's very tricky. But I think largely the next few months and years, more and more is going to come out. And so I think it's, you know, a lot of people are going to be kind of on the right side of history and vindicated who were kind of, you know, people like David Gresh, who I think were treated badly in the past. Do you think, because I wonder if the high energy physics closed group, I wonder if they knew a thing or two. Because it feels like that's where you would, that's where you'd start to break. reality with high voltage experimentation, you know, nuclear blasts, that sort of thing. I'd say it's not beyond them, but what do you get out of it? The building block of the world,

Starting point is 01:29:55 of humanity, they want to get to the lowest common denominator of a building block. Yeah. Of a person, of a thing, of a microphone. That's what they're looking for. Totally. And there are rumors at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN. We're at Cosmotron at Brookhaven National Labs that UFOs seem to show. up around, you know, places where we're smashing together, basically the building blocks of reality itself. And that would, it would kind of make sense if we were living in some sort of... Well, the big stuff is happening in CERN in Switzerland. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:30:25 That's the best cyclotron now. And it's, it is the world's finest and best and everything else. It is. And it would make sense if you were, you know, beings, you know, kind of guarding the sort of simulation, you would show up where we're smashing together the building blocks of reality, you know? it is a special field and there's special guys in it but they're they just have one issue yeah yeah yeah i mean they just want to build bigger and bigger you know accelerators and see see what comes comes out so where do you think we go from here do you think we it seems like trump has now put stephen miller on the topic of UFOs marco rubio our secretary of state basically admits that we know somebody said what's the conspiracy you believe in most he goes there are things flying with impunity around our nuclear sites.

Starting point is 01:31:16 I don't know who it is. I don't know what it is, but there are things flying over our military installation and they're not ours, and we should look into this, be serious about it. I would believe that. I would go along with that, but I can't go the next step. What is it? I have no idea. So you do think there are things flying around our airspace that we...

Starting point is 01:31:35 Well, I've seen pictures of them on television, and I've seen films that have been on the on the publications and pictures in the paper and did you hear about any of this stuff when you were I haven't no no well we watch movies you know the Spellberg movies were all out yeah you know but nothing nothing more officially nothing came out okay I'll say it again there's nothing official rumors people always get about it but because I do think I think things will come out you know near And so I'm just, I just hope that. Well, I hope you break it first. I really do.

Starting point is 01:32:14 I hope so, too. I'll keep watching and see if we can get you to come out and, like, have a guest here that came from, you know, Uranus or somewhere. Yeah, we'll try to figure it out. You know, I got to choose a different planet, but I'm, uh. Oh, you picked that up. Yeah. So do, so, so you think we'll sort of never know. You think it'll be this like, okay, there are things around our sensitive sites, but we'll never know exactly what they'll.

Starting point is 01:32:38 Well, I don't, I don't think. will ever know. I'm 87 and chances are good that it won't happen in the five years. But I don't know where it's all going. I really don't. Yeah. Would you ever, I don't know, talk to Congress in a closed setting with somebody like a David Grush and compare notes? Sure. I offer to do that. You offered to do that. I've been back several times in restricted sessions. Okay. On security issues with the energy department, especially on Rocky Flats, Colorado. That's been a big problem. Okay.

Starting point is 01:33:15 Well, that's cool that you're down to do that. You're down to go. I would do it. So the thing that Grush talks about is he talks about the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, and there being this sort of restricted data where if you retrieve anything that has alpha, beta, gamma, radiation, any radiation coming off of it, it's immediately sort of borne secret. Do you actually read the Atomic Energy Act? If something is not a nuke, but it has radiological energy coming off it, you know, alpha, beta, decay, whatever.

Starting point is 01:33:45 Same secrecy. And so that's what he says that the UFO issue is sort of shoehorned into that. And so he says that Oppenheimer, people like Robert Sarbacher, Vannevar Bush, set up these sort of secrecy protocols to, you know, go under the Department of Energy. And so I don't know if you have anything to say about that. Well, first of all, the Atomic Energy Commission wasn't under the Department of Energy until 76. Before it was a stand-alone. It was basically created by the Navy submarine guy, Rickover. Rickover is the father of nuclear energy, and especially in the Navy.

Starting point is 01:34:25 He was a four-star admiral when he wanted to testify, and then he could jump over to the Atomic Energy Commission when he wanted to be a civilian. It was one of the great setups, and I don't think we'd be anywhere without him, and I doubt that. that Oppenheimer or any of these people had any influence dealing with him. He was an absolute one-man band, and he believed in all this stuff getting out. So I'd say that's nonsense, but... He believed in what getting out? He had information on nuclear power and the things the Atomic Energy Commission were doing public the whole time. He was very much in front of Congress testifying all the time on that.

Starting point is 01:35:05 There's several books on Rickover that are worth reading. One of them's called Underway, My Way. Yeah. It's a good book. Yeah, there's Blind Man's Bluff, too. Well, that's a little different. Blind Man Bluff is the Sosus buoys that were uncovered with the Navy. Yep.

Starting point is 01:35:22 And I don't know if you've ever read The Silent War, the John Pena Craven. Yes. So there he talks about John Pena Craven, you know, and these guys are like the godfathers of the Navy, recovering exotic technology on the seafloor. And so another case where you're like, what's going on here? So we're going to find all the UFOs come out of Atlantis. Maybe. Which they now say is up in the Red Sea.

Starting point is 01:35:46 The Naval has a consultant named Bob Ballard at the Institute in Connecticut. Bob is one of the great guys. And he's looking for Atlanta out in the Mediterranean. He's got numerous books and he's gotten all kinds of prizes. That's so cool. What's Bob Ballard's background? He's been running the Oceanographic Institute in Connecticut for the Navy and doing huge government contracts for exploration, deep sea submersibles.

Starting point is 01:36:23 He's almost high security stuff. I mean, he'll be at the bottom of all the deep submersible. vessels that have been built. And he's the one that found the Titanic. Wow. He's found a aircraft carrier out in the Pacific. What's the one? Lexington sunk off.

Starting point is 01:36:45 He's found it all. That's amazing. And he's an interesting guy. It could be, there's a hypothesis. There's actually a guy named Hal Put Off. I don't know if you're familiar with him. But he says that we have 10 to 40 crafts in our possession. He also says he worked with George W. Bush and Stephen Hadley, his National Security Advisor,

Starting point is 01:37:03 on whether we should make disclosures. And how put off has a hypothesis called the ultraterrestrial hypothesis, which is that the beings, the non-human intelligence, are a holdover from a civilization that existed before the ice age. And they are more advanced than us, but they've been coexisting with us on Earth for many years. And so then they could be under our oceans, but also be able to, you know, travel into deep space. So it's very interesting. And he's a longtime NSA CIA guy who's, you know, held very, very high clearances. And he says this publicly on Joe Rogan.

Starting point is 01:37:39 He talked about George W. Bush contemplating disclosure. He literally says we have between 10 and 40 crafts in our possession right now of non-human origin. So we're looking in the wrong place. We're all looking up. We should be looking down. Right? Into the ocean. You've quoted an awful lot of CIA guys today.

Starting point is 01:37:58 Yes. And I would not expect that to be where the information is coming from. I've known a lot of spooks. The Energy Department is just riddled with spooks. And, you know, if you look at the energy attachés and embassies and embassies around the world, usually they're CIA guys. I don't find them on the scientific level. They're full of schemes and theories.

Starting point is 01:38:25 and they're seeing shadows behind every door. I think the reason it might fall under the purview of the CIA. There's another CIA guy named Jim Semivand, who's, you know, I think basically ran the whole northern hemisphere for the CIA, and he's super into UFOs. And I think the reason it sort of maybe falls under their purview is because it's not foreign intelligence, but it's super foreign intelligence.

Starting point is 01:38:49 And so it's like they have the kind of analysis and sense-making, you know, mandate that would make sense here. You're kind of systematically dealing with things you don't understand, intelligence you don't understand. And so that's why they might be the frontier of defense. There's also a guy who was rumored to run the whole legacy crash retrieval program named Glenn Gaffney, and he was the CIA's director of science and technology. Well, I would love to talk to the head of the crash retrieval program during that era, but he refused to talk to us. And that was Glenn Gaffney?

Starting point is 01:39:20 Yeah. There seems to be some sort of connection between that and maybe DOE oversight. That's what in this in this movie Age of Disclosure, you have again people who are high up as director of national intelligence saying basically this was a joint effort between the direct, you know, the Department of Energy and the CIA's, you know, director of science and technology. Bill Casey was President Reagan's CIA director and he and I sat next to each other at the cabinet table for five years. and pass notes back and forth, and we play golf every Wednesday afternoon if we weren't busy. We discussed all this stuff. We used to build the satellites for the CIA and the national laboratories.

Starting point is 01:40:03 This subject never came up, and if it was on Bill's agenda, he would have talked to me about it. Yeah. So any time in the 80s, I would say this was a non-starter. Interesting. Well, I appreciate your candid take, John. And, you know, if at any point you'd want to clear the air with Brent, I know he'd be excited to speak with you. And I don't think he means you any harm.

Starting point is 01:40:29 I think he really, I think he was very complimentary. I think he was very complimentary. Yeah. So I think I think he just felt compelled to talk about it. He needs to readjust his principles and figure out where he's going in life. Okay. Fair enough. Well, John, this has been a pleasure.

Starting point is 01:40:48 I really appreciate it. It's a total honor. You know, it's not normal for me to be able to speak to somebody of your caliber and your track record. And, you know, I think you have a lot of really great takes on politics. And so hopefully, you know, the people in charge now take note. And I also hope we're able to make progress on the issue of UFOs because it's just been, you know, a real slog to get to where we are now. But I do think we've made a lot of progress in the last 10 years. I'm going to be watching.

Starting point is 01:41:16 And I'd like you to make some progress also. Before we close, let me give you a couple little keepsakes. These are matches off Air Force One from President Reagan. Wow. I don't think they're worth a lot. You can light your cigarettes with them. But did he own these? They came off Air Force One.

Starting point is 01:41:34 And then here is a Reagan golf ball. And I have to tell you very honestly, Reagan played golf once a year. He wasn't a great golfing. New Year's Day, he played always. Usually in Palm Springs with the Annenbergs. And you can have that. You can sell that.

Starting point is 01:41:48 The Japanese love that thing. They'll buy it in two seconds. I'm not selling this, man. I'm keeping this, and I really appreciate it. This man's a lot. That's very cool, especially given the fact that he played so little golf, this is a rare keepsake. He had them.

Starting point is 01:42:03 So, Jesse, thank you for putting up with us here, and we've enjoyed it. And you're a very good young man interviewing. So I wish you all luck in the world. Well, John, I appreciate this. And yeah, this is an honor and a lot of fun. And, yeah, I'm excited to see how people respond. And we'll see what happens.

Starting point is 01:42:24 We live in a crazy world. Oh, yeah, yes, we are. I'm waiting for the AI to bring a microscope on all this. Yeah, well, yeah, maybe they're the, maybe that's the aliens, the AI. Thanks again. And good luck to you. Thank you. Likewise.

Starting point is 01:42:45 Do you think there's any chance he was hazing you, but not gratuitously, randomly, hazing you, but he wanted to see if you would talk because there was some sort of initiation process, like a secret society or something like that. See, this is a great theory, and it's something I honestly hadn't thought of because of my personal relationship with him. I just, I assumed he was unburdening himself. I assumed that being the man he was, he would not burden his wife and daughters with this truth, but I could see that physically it was a huge burden on him. He had physically looked very haggard. So I thought, in retrospect, I didn't make any sense when he was telling me, but in retrospect, I thought,

Starting point is 01:43:29 oh, I have compassion for him because he was telling me things that he just needed to share with somebody. But Bryce has a theory that's very much in line with what you just said, which is the way things seem to work, right, as we've kind of learned more and more on sound light and frequency, is there is all of this subtle nuance to things, how information is. How information is exchanged and trial balloons and initiations and all sorts of stuff. So it's quite possible that I was being given a test of some degree to see what I would do with this information and that may lead me down a path in the future. You've talked to a lot of people. Have you heard other stories of people being hazed, like, or being given something that becomes an initiation or something

Starting point is 01:44:16 along those lines? I actually interviewed the head of Intel and counterintel for the DOE from 2006 to 2009 a guy named Rolf Moat Larson. And he wrote this book

Starting point is 01:44:31 that just feels so like intel coded. You know, it's called a state of mind, faith in the CIA. He also mentioned, you know, being hazed by the DOE.

Starting point is 01:44:45 Like, they're being like a hazing ritual when he just, joined the DOE around Roswell. And it's really interesting. So it's like, he was brought in by the deputy director of the DOE. So like the number two at the DOE is involved in this like hazing ritual around Roswell. We took a director level. So deputy director, secretary of energy was involved and several other bigwigs and me as the director of intelligence. And we take a newbie. The newbie would be a political appointee, very high level, maybe, you know, deputy secretary or assistant secretary or

Starting point is 01:45:16 some level, who had just signed up and gotten their clearances and were taking their jobs, and we bring them down to the bowels of the Department of Energy where some of the most secretive things are guarded, and you know where those are, kind of everybody whispers when they come by. And you pull them into this back room like Maxwell Smart and the old TV shows, and the hazing ritual is to explain to them that we really did have aliens, we covered aliens, one was injured, one was not, and we got the alien space technology through Roswell, you know, et cetera. And it was a real thing. And the briefing is so good.

Starting point is 01:45:51 It's got all the real DOE, what you call tickets, you know, we call secret access program, saps, they're called, and things on this to make it seem as real as possible. And there's, you know, obviously there's corpses on tables and stuff to make this all look. At what point do you tell them it's a joke? Well, somebody cracks up and it, it, it, somebody can't keep it in any longer. We betray our own. And the secretary of energy. We're not that good actor. The secretary of energy is literally in on this.

Starting point is 01:46:20 It's a deputy secretary who's, who was in my case was in the room. Oh my God. But yeah, so we raise it to the highest level. And then the second really interesting thing is he had a download. He had a dream where he downloaded a bunch of numbers. And the first numbers or sort of one of the problem. number sequences is 747. And so I call him out on that when he brings up, you know, the story of being haste. I go, you know when Roswell was. He goes, do you remember the date of

Starting point is 01:46:50 Roswell that they gave you? Uh, no, not off the top of my head. I think I had it in the, I think I wrote it in the book. It is in the book. And it's July 7th, 1947. Yeah. Do you think that connects with your download 747? Oh, my goodness. Good. You know, that's the first time I've ever ever thought that it might. There's something going on with high energy physics, the Department of Energy. I think throwing people off, actually, with this sort of alien motif, but that representing an inroad to something way deeper and more intense. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:47:29 Wow. I need to go back and listen to that interview. I mean, it all oddly adds up, but in a more kind of like three-dimensional chess way, it doesn't all add up in a linear kind of rational way. And I think that what you just said, that intersection of like somehow quantum physics and weird esoteric agnostic, ancient philosophies, religion, spiritual technologies, whatever you want to call. I think that's where the truth lies somewhere in there. And I think it probably does involve, I think consciousness is at the center of everything, right? That's the, that's the great unknown.

Starting point is 01:48:09 still, the great undiscovered country for us. But I also think that there is this convergence at consciousness of science and spirituality. And I think that's also why it's so hard to convey the full truth to anyone. And it also could be, too, that part of this hazing ritual or this initiation that people go through is to see how you will respond, meaning not just what you will do or who you will tell, but what your consciousness will make of these ideas or experiences, right? And if they tend to go in a more obvious way, then you're not of interest. But if they tend to go in a direction that allows you to start having other experiences,

Starting point is 01:48:54 then you might be heading down the right path and you might be of value because your consciousness might be ready to receive certain information.

American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - I Confront The Secretary of Energy On UFOs

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