American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - “I Met The Head Of The Entire UFO Program!” - Grant Cameron

Starting point is 00:00:00 Whenever I feel like I'm getting close to the truth, your name always shows up. Well, Grant Cameron put that out. Grant Cameron knows about this. I've liked so many documents, and I'm saying, does anybody ever just leak a document? Am I the only person that's leaked documents here? You're one of the few people who've had direct interactions

Starting point is 00:00:17 with Eric Walker, who's been rumored to be on this sort of Majestic 12 committee. What was that interaction like? Well, it was wild. He said at one point, they were talking about the MJ12 committee, committee and he cuts the guy off, he said, look, let me ask you a question. We don't know about ESP. And the guy had no answer. He said, look, unless you understand about ESP and how it works, you will not be taken in by the control group. When he said control group,

Starting point is 00:00:43 what do you think he meant? He described them as a group of elites. If you were invited into their group, I would know. Secret societies are the guys with the money, that the people who went to the Cosmos Club were the insiders. Hillary was really into this thing. They talked about the seven-year They were going to promote the stuff. And John Pedesta was actually saying, ask her about the aliens. And she was going to go on Kimmel, and she went on there, and he didn't ask her the UFO question.

Starting point is 00:01:07 No way. How do you know that? Send you to Presti emails. Holy shit. If you listen to Jim Semiband, he says, just because you've got bodies and crafts, doesn't mean what's going on. They said all the size stuff is right.

Starting point is 00:01:18 Everything. I wrote the whole book on UFO Skypods, where I write 36 people that came to me, and all said, I've flown the craft. Really? Well, yeah. Do you believe? we have crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs.

Starting point is 00:01:31 So Ron Pendelphi run the Weird Desk. What's the weird desk? The Weird Desk is supposedly the place at the CIA where all the weird stuff comes in, all the paranormal stuff. It's like the X-Files of the CIA. Yeah, yeah. They're really weird stuff. So you think Ron Pandolfi exists at the top of the UFO pyramid from a government perspective?

Starting point is 00:01:47 Absolutely. He's been at the CIA since 84. He's rumored to brief the president, and he says, quote, people have always wondered what it's like to go into the next world. There's been a breakthrough. He looks over at this John guy. Next time John goes to the desert, a number of us here will go into the next world and come back again. And I went, whoa.

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Starting point is 00:03:51 submissions, so take your personal data back now with Incogni. If you're a fan of the show, you probably care about personal privacy. This is one of the best ways I've found to anonymize myself online. Right now, you can use code American Alchemy at incogny.com slash American Alchemy for 60% off an annual plan. Again, that's incogny.com slash American Alchemy for 60% on. off an annual plan. Thank you so much to Incogni for sponsoring today's episode. So I'm here with Grant Cameron, and this has been a long time coming.

Starting point is 00:04:24 I've been trying to get you to the states for the longest time. I had to come out to Canada, but I'm really grateful to be with you now because there are many deep threads in UFO world whenever I feel like I'm getting close to the truth and I'm going through all these interesting people and places and dates and events,

Starting point is 00:04:44 and your name, always shows up. Well, Grant Cameron put that out. Grant Cameron knows about this. So I'm really excited to speak to you, and I think this should be a lot of fun. Jesse, I'm honored to be here because you're one of the guys

Starting point is 00:04:57 that's getting the message out, and that's basically what it's all about. It's like, it's not about money. It's, to me, it's always been like a chess game. It's like, because I was very good at chess when I was a little kid, I stopped playing because I started to lose a couple games. I didn't want to lose.

Starting point is 00:05:10 But to me, it's like a chess game. It's like, I saw something, and I just was determined I'm going to figure this thing out. And one of the problems we have in the UFO community is getting the message out to raise consciousness. And so I appreciate what the job you've done in terms of moving the message to the general public.

Starting point is 00:05:27 I'm doing my best. I don't even know if there's a concrete or discrete message. It's more like I'm trying to figure it out myself and I'm filming that. And so I think through that, you know, maybe that creates sort of a ripple effect. And there are others who do a great job like Chris Ramsey. and, you know, we're in Luigi's office.

Starting point is 00:05:47 He's making an amazing movie about Bob Lazar. So all these people, and I do think it, you know, it spreads and, you know, the whole thing grows. But you really helped kick it all off. So I want to talk about how you got into this whole field. You had an experience, right? Yeah. When was that? 1975.

Starting point is 00:06:08 I actually started in February of 1975. I lived in Manitoba, which is the province right in the middle. It wouldn't have big Manitoba, but it's the coldest major city in the world. And a small town about 35 miles southwest, it's called Carmen. Suddenly, it was all over the news. There's this thing called Charlie Red Star is flying around there. And I was at university at the time, and I was kind of depressed where I was. I was trying to figure out like calculus and chemistry and stuff.

Starting point is 00:06:35 And I was like, how do you're going to make any money with this stuff? Like, what am I going to do with this stuff? I couldn't figure out why I was there. And I was expected to go because I was kind of a smart kid, so I was expected to go. I just couldn't figure what was going to do. And then the sighting started. The object appears to be stationary just above the ground. Then almost simultaneous with a flash which appears in the sky,

Starting point is 00:06:57 the object moves north at blinding speed. And I said to my friend that we used to drive around the city, do nothing. You know, we just drive around the city. I said, instead of drive around the city, why go out and see what they're looking at? And I figured it was like, I always describe it as the lottery. You buy the ticket to the lottery.

Starting point is 00:07:15 There's a chance you're going to win, but you ain't going to see nothing. You can't get to see anything. So we didn't go. We didn't go to May because I had no interest in it. He had no interest in the subject. So in May, the CKY film was caught on film. They caught this thing jumping from the ground to 5,000 feet in the air. In three frames, four frames.

Starting point is 00:07:34 We haven't got the actual film, so we can't determine exactly how many frames. And the whole horizon lights up. One frame, the entire horizon lights up. And there was a TV crew got it. And so they analyzed this thing. An eight-minute documentary they did, they had it frame by frame. This thing is moving.

Starting point is 00:07:51 How it jumped the flash frame as it went up. And they were eight miles away. And it went from the bottom of the frame to the top of the frame. And they were eight miles away. And just amazing things. So I said, holy cow, look at the cut on a film. Let's go.

Starting point is 00:08:04 So we drove out there and we drove in this town called Carmen. We drove out, we drove in. I had no understanding about astronomy or anything. I'm looking at planet stars. I couldn't tell a planet from a star. It's like, oh, and what are they looking at? What's everybody looking at? And we drove for an hour, and then my friend said,

Starting point is 00:08:19 they was driving, he said, okay, we'll drive into Carmen one more time. If you don't see anything, let's go home. He said, fantastic. This has been a total waste of time. I knew we wouldn't see anything. So we turned the car to go back in, and boom, it appeared from the left to the right. And everyone in the car, nobody said, is that what they're looking at? Because we were looking at.

Starting point is 00:08:36 What is this going to? And nobody said, is that we're looking at. Everybody just went, there it is. And it was just so weird. And looking back, it came in so close and so clear and so slow right in front of the car, just flew in front of the car. And I was just mesmerized because I was raised. I was supposed to be a minister.

Starting point is 00:08:52 So I was raised sort of very religiously. And it was like the miracles and stuff. And the first thing I thought is, holy God, there are miracles. Like, whoa. What did it look like? It was like a plasma object. It was just, and it looked like it was alive. It was just slowly pulsing.

Starting point is 00:09:06 It was going so slow and it was maybe 100 feet off the ground, 150 feet. and came right in front of the road as we were driving. How big was it? Hard to tell it because it was at night. So we say like a small plane or something, but the thing is you have no perspective at night as to what it was. But it was pretty big in the sky. It wasn't a light in the sky.

Starting point is 00:09:23 It was an actual object. And you couldn't see the edges. So it was sort of this idea that it gives off this energy, this light that doesn't light anything up. We called it a dead light. And it would just be pulsing along. And I remember it was going across the road. And then there was these school buses all parked there.

Starting point is 00:09:38 And I was getting out of the car. It was still moving. I'm getting out of the car because I wanted to cross the ditch. And I wanted to go and watch this thing as the guy behind the school buses. I remember I was sitting between these school buses and just watching this thing. It's just flying. Just flying away. So I'd write all my friends.

Starting point is 00:09:54 I said, man, you've got to see this. This is the most amazing thing you've ever seen in your life. So I dragged all my friends out there. And it was like a party atmosphere because it's Saturday night or Friday night, whatever. So you've got kids out there drinking beer on the roads outside of the town, you know. And we were there and there was 20, 28 people. not where I was, we're in the middle of nowhere. I didn't know where we were.

Starting point is 00:10:12 Just, we saw these cars parks and we went there. And the car beside us had, I remember it had, it was a courier car. There was three guys and there was a girl. And he had a camera, a Nikon camera that had the first motor drives on it where they could advance the film very fast. So the second night we were sitting there and all my friends said, oh, we're going home. I said, no, no, got to see this. This is the most amazing thing here.

Starting point is 00:10:32 Hang on, stay here. Nope. We're going back. We're hungry. We're going back to Winnipeg for pizza. And all my friends left. And there was about nine of us left. when it finally came.

Starting point is 00:10:40 So we were sitting there and it was just like a flash cube, flashed in the sky. And these kids are sitting in the field and they yell back at me, is that it, Grant? And I go, I guess so.

Starting point is 00:10:51 It didn't look like what I saw the first of the, I said, I guess so, because it's so weird. And it was boom, boom, boom, it was called a ping pong ball. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Boom, boom.

Starting point is 00:10:59 And I can still remember, it was just like a football game. People were swearing, screaming, yelling, jumping up and down. And this guy could just hear the camera, it was going, click, does this is, click, this is,

Starting point is 00:11:09 As this thing was coming around, I see, unloading the camera, as this thing is coming towards us. And the girl couldn't see it because it was jumping around the sky. It says, I can't see it. Someone showed it to me. And everybody's like, no order. We were just sitting there and it came in. And then it appeared like the same, first night. It was like this red pulsing object and had this sort of a green glow on the back of it.

Starting point is 00:11:26 It came right at us. And it just sort of made this turn. And it sort of went back. Sort of, it came from the west. It went back in the northwest. And I remember as I was watching it, this car took off. The gravel was sliding because it goes so slow. They were chasing it.

Starting point is 00:11:39 So I was sitting there and I was looking at it. And the thing that stayed with me in my entire career is 51 years now. I looked at it and I go, that is so cool. That could be an extraterrestrial from another planet. But what the hell is it doing? It's not doing anything. And we had a joke because it would be sort of showing up there all the time. And it was like a small town.

Starting point is 00:11:59 There was no military. There was no industry. There was no nuclear. There was nothing there. And it was like, why are they here? I was asking the guy that ran the airport. And we had a joke. We said like American beer was very water, low alcohol at that time.

Starting point is 00:12:13 And Canadian beer's always had high alcohol. So he said he's doing a beer run. He's coming from the United States. He's picking up some beer and he goes back to the United States, you know. And so asked the guy later on, I went 35 years later, I went back to this guy, Bob Diedmer, who's a real wild guy. He rebuilt his zero, Japanese zero, built all these, flew in the Battle of Britain, the movie, flew his, his zero and stuff like.

Starting point is 00:12:36 He was just a wild guy, had an airfield there. And he was sort of the tour guide. So I said, Bob, why were they here? Why did they come to Carmen? He said, I told you. I said, Bob, I don't know. I'm doing a lecture in the States. I just want to review what happened here.

Starting point is 00:12:48 And he said, I told you in 75. I told you what happened, why they were here. And I said, Bob, I still don't know why they're here. And he said, the nuclear weapons. I told you, the nuclear weapons. That's why they were here. And then I said, oh, yeah, he said, don't you remember?

Starting point is 00:13:01 I told that story about the guy, the Air Force guy that I talked to at the bar on the border, that they had this thing cornered over top of a nuclear weapon. and they were told to ram it, and they came in, and the guy that was in the bar said, it's not worth my life, and he pulled out of the formation, and the thing just took off through where he was, he left a hole, and this thing took off. And then it made sense, because we always knew

Starting point is 00:13:23 that North Dakota was a nuclear superpower. If it had been a country, it would have been a nuclear superpower. It had the mineout field, and then it had the Grand Forks field, which is the one that we were involved with, had 150 Minuteman nuclear missiles in each field. And so that's 300 nuclear missiles. And we'd go into the states and we'd see them. There'd be a field.

Starting point is 00:13:43 There'd be one in a field. You'd see the fence around it off in a farmer's field or something like that. And then another one. So we always knew there were nuclear weapons. We knew that there was ever a nuclear attack. We were gone because we were 60 miles north of the border. And every 10th, you know, Russian missile would come short right on top of us. You know, we're gone because that's the number one target.

Starting point is 00:14:00 It's not Washington. It's not L.A. The number one target is the missiles. So the Russians would target these missile fields. North Dakota would be obliterated because if you don't get the missiles, you're not going to know what happens. So what had happened in 75 in February, they opened what was called the Mickelson-Stanley-ABM site.

Starting point is 00:14:22 It was the only anti-ballistic missile unit that everyone was in operation on the United States. They're supposed to be three. One was in the east somewhere in Wisconsin or something. One was in Nekoma, North Dakota, which is the one that we were involved with, and then they were supposed to one at Malmstrom. And they only built the one in North Dakota. So they put in another hundred nuclear missiles.

Starting point is 00:14:41 So at 300, now they put this field maybe a couple acres with all these missiles. And the idea was, this is pre-Star Wars. So what they're going to do is they have these five-meaton missiles, and they would launch. So if the Russians launch, they're going to try to hit it in outer space. So they launch these missiles. And then if those missed, then they had these one-megatine sprint missiles

Starting point is 00:14:59 that would go up and create this shrapnel over top of the missiles. silos and shred the Russian missile as it was coming down. So they put these hundred nuclear missiles. And that's when the UFO started on our side. We were only like 25 miles north of the border where all these stuff was happening. And Nicoma was just on the other side of the border. And they had the big radar. It was called the Nixon Pyramid, which was right on the border. And this is the one that would pick up the Russian missiles and stuff like that. And I didn't know that at the time. It was maybe 30 years later that I suddenly realized they'd put all these new nuclear

Starting point is 00:15:29 missiles. In November of 1975, they made an agreement with the Russians and they started taking them out because of all the thing with the dummy warheads and stuff like that, that they realized there's no way you can defend this kind of stuff. So they basically stopped and this missile field was taken out. So I think they spent $6 billion in 1975. It was there from February till November of 1975. And that whole time, we were inundated with UFOs. Even there was a missile right on the border and there was a UFO landing about two miles away from it. And there was a UFO landing about two miles away from it. And there was a famous abduction case called the Larson case in North Dakota in 1973,

Starting point is 00:16:04 or 1975, summer of 1975, where there was two nuclear missiles within sight of where they were abducted. And this is a big story back in that time because Travis Walton had been abducted yet. 75 was a big year. I got involved. I got dragged down the rabbit hole. Linda Howe got dragged down the rabbit hole. What happened in the Larson case? She was abducted.

Starting point is 00:16:24 She was going to an appointment in Bismarcky. So she's going from Fargo to Bismarck. And then just outside of Beaver North Dakota, this is the abduction took place. And she describes the beings. And they're not grazed. They're some weird type of beings. And they regressed her.

Starting point is 00:16:37 And the National Enquirer came in. So it was a big story. It was all over the place. Everybody knew about Pascagoula. Everybody knew about Betty and Barney Hill. And this is one of the big ones. The National Enquirer, with their 15 million readers, got very popular at that time.

Starting point is 00:16:52 So we started putting this all together, same as Stan Romanuk, his father. he claimed worked on the missiles. And he came from North Dakota. That's where his origin was. So Linda, how got called in in the middle of that year? What happened to Stan Romanuck just for general audience?

Starting point is 00:17:10 Well, he got, he had pornography stuff on his, on his, on his computer. Now, he said it was set up and I talked to him maybe two years ago. No,

Starting point is 00:17:19 I mean what happened to him with respect to contact? Well, he was a major contact. He had all these, uh, beings. they actually had the photograph of the of one of the hybrids that his wife took. She was sitting in our audience with the wraparound eyes.

Starting point is 00:17:34 And they had like when I went to them, I said to his wife, I said, are you going to these things of shadow people? Any photographs of shadow people? She says, yeah, you want some? She said these photographs of shadow people. They're just like total nuts. And so did he, he lived around there or his father was. His father was working there.

Starting point is 00:17:51 They moved to, he was just north of Denver. And so everybody would go see him. Like John Alexander went to see him. And I heard that John Alexander had been there. And everybody said, oh, he's hoaxing the thing. And they would tell me, like the Mufant people said, oh, you're going to go see Stan Romano? Because he said, anybody can come into the house for a couple of days.

Starting point is 00:18:07 Because he has, like, videos of, like, beings coming into his house sort of thing. And he has the big story nobody knows about, and that is the Audrey story. So the Audrey story, and there's a couple of films of him at the phone, where Audrey phones up. And it's this voice message that you had back at the time. And it's like a phone message. So it's an actual voice. It's the Audrey phone message and it's this voice.

Starting point is 00:18:29 And they're calling him Starseed. And they're saying Starseed this. And they were giving these messages. And he would have it on tape. The phone would ring and you'd do this whole thing. So he said, I, Stan's making it out piece of hair hooks. Most people don't know.

Starting point is 00:18:40 There was over 80 phone calls, Audrey phone calls to all sorts of people. There was a guy who actually was with me with Tim Taylor, who had a bunch of them. He was going to do a book on them. He played a couple of Audrey messages and he had two phones. What are the Audrey messages? Well, their messages that come from the beings that he's in contact with.

Starting point is 00:18:59 Wow. You're an absolute encyclopedia about all this stuff. So I want to make sure when you mention a thing, it's not only accessible to people who are into UFOs, but you explain what it is to a wider audience. So this guy, nobody knows. So this guy is a big business guy. And he's the guy that had the cabin where I met Tim Taylor in Pennsylvania. But he's a big business guy in New Jersey.

Starting point is 00:19:22 And he had two phones. He told me he had two phones, one phone for business, and the other phone. And he would know before the phone rang, Audrey was going to follow out. And Audrey would phone, and then he would get these messages. And he was sort of a big business guy. He was backing Stan Roman. Until the charges came where Stan got pulled up on these charges. And then the guy pulled out.

Starting point is 00:19:39 What were the Audrey messages? Well, everybody was getting different messages. I gave you the one, which sort of blew me away. Paula Harris said she got a message from, she said, that's nothing. I got a phone, a message from Audrey. I said, you got a message from Audrey too? and she said, I got a message. And I said, well, tell me.

Starting point is 00:19:54 Well, it's nothing. I said, well, but Stan Romanuk got him. And then the guy in New Jersey was getting him. And then the public affairs guy from Mufan got a message on his own phone. It came with his phone number. And this is before we could do this thing, make your phone number. It comes on his own phone. His own phone is phoning him.

Starting point is 00:20:14 And Audrey's on there. And he played me the message. So I knew there was, there's these people getting these Audrey messages all over the place. And nobody had made it public, these Audrey messages. So Paula's was, she had gone. to a Stephen Greer event at Crestone, Colorado. And she'd actually bought five acres because she was just thinking of making some estuelson.

Starting point is 00:20:28 Well, I was Stephen Greer doing an event at Crestone. Well, he was doing an event there. What was it? Well, it was like one of his C.E5 events that he has, you know, were in California or Florida and stuff. He was doing one there. Because Crestown, I believe, is a center of. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:42 There was sort of this woman who started, she had all these ideas of like syncretic ideas of, you know, some universal religion or something, I think. And it's just a beautiful place. So Paula had about five acres there. And we had, she was going to put it in establishment and Dr. Rear had acres there and stuff like that. And so she came back. The first time she went, she came back.

Starting point is 00:21:02 And then she said to herself, boy, that's beautiful. I'd like to go. And the phone rang. And Audrey was on the phone. She says, don't worry. You'll go back. What? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:11 Well, this is a kind of phone calls. This guy from New Jersey said he knew when Audrey was going to phone. And this is a part that I. So Audrey seems to be psychic. Well, Audrey's in those who all the people involved in the case. So nobody knew that all the people in the case were getting, there was even... Specifically in the Romanuk case or in which case? Well, the Romanuk, this is all connected to Roma.

Starting point is 00:21:31 It's all connected to Romanuk. All these people were connected to Rome. So everybody who's investigating Stan Romanuk is getting calls from this like... Not all, but there was quite a few. I was picking up more and more. There was a guy at the, he's on the Mufon board. He comes to me, says, I want to hear play this tape. I was in Pennsylvania, I guess two years ago.

Starting point is 00:21:51 And he said, I wanted to play this tape. And he's playing this tape. And I go, and he's good with Starcy. And I said, is that Audrey? And he said, how do you know that? I said, you got a call too? And he said, yeah. What was your call that you got?

Starting point is 00:22:02 I didn't get. I didn't get it. I didn't call. But I was, I was going all these people and saying, you know, you got to take the stamina room on a case. No matter what happened at the end, you got to take, this is a real case. I mean, this is a real deal. Do you think that video is real of the being like showing his face through the window?

Starting point is 00:22:17 He's like inside his house. And you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. being, you see the face. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, it's controversy you can never really tell. But I think, because he had all sorts of stuff with the guy on the side. There's so many bizarre stories with the guy, they take the side, he's siding off his house and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:22:32 It just like, I didn't know about the nuclear connection and I didn't know about the John Alexander kind of involved. John went. So I was doing a taping in L.A. And I heard John Alexander had been there because that's what his thing was. And I said, well, I'll go. I mean, I'll go there. I'll go there for a couple days. I'll tell you.

Starting point is 00:22:47 And I'll tell you, if nothing happened, I'll tell you. Something happens. I'm going to tell you what happened. So I was going there and Romanic had the flu. He was just sick as a dog. So I talked to his wife. He serves the distance. He said, I can't do it.

Starting point is 00:22:57 So I kept going. I went back to Canada and stuff like that. But when I was going there, people were telling me, don't let him touch your computer. Don't let him touch your computer. Because your computer will go whappo when Stan touches stuff. Because there were sort of electromagnetic anomalies. Chris also has the same thing.

Starting point is 00:23:12 I mean, he gave me a list. I don't know if Chris gave you the list of all this stuff he'd done, like two washers, three dryers. A lot of experiences seem to. especially kind of super experiencers or, you know, people who've been implanted or abducted, you know, many times often have sort of electromagnetic anomalies involved with their body. And sometimes they'll shut phones off. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:31 They'll fry electronics. Yeah. So Romanock was like that. Oh, yeah, big time. Big time. And so when I heard John had gone, he was, he was, we were on a set and John was sitting in the back. And people were really mad. I think it was, uh, Schmidt came out and he was just curious.

Starting point is 00:23:46 John Alexander's there and he's watching everybody's testimony and stuff like that. And I'm thinking, John's there. And then sure enough, I went there and you're in the dark. So he's in the dark and you're on camera. You can't see. And John comes in and he goes into the dark. He's sitting there and he's, I guess he's listening to everybody's things and making notes or for whatever reason.

Starting point is 00:24:02 I don't know. Yeah. He's one of these guys that seems to pop up when anybody has an experience. He seems to go take notes, evaluate what's going on. For himself or somebody else. Yeah. And then sometimes kind of partially debunks the thing, says that, well, it's nothing really there. Well, that's what he did in the Romanic thing.

Starting point is 00:24:19 because I said, oh, what the hell? So I saw him and he said, he had my book, and he wanted me to sign the book. So I said, yeah, okay. And I figured, what the hell? Because he's kind of a scary looking guy. He's got all the martial arts and stuff. You know, when I get him mad or whatever.

Starting point is 00:24:31 So I said, hey, John, I heard you're at the Romanix house. And he said, yeah, I was there. And I said, really? Didn't anything happen? Because I heard stuff had happened. He said, anything happened? And he goes, yeah, some stuff happened. And I go, really?

Starting point is 00:24:43 Something happened? See, yeah, was nothing. And I said, what do you mean? There's nothing. And then he said, he said, well, went in the backyard and he took the flashlight and he unscrews the flashlight till, you know, it's sort of on, on off, and it's off and puts them on the picnic table. And then Roman X starts asking questions and the flashlight starts asking the questions. I said,

Starting point is 00:25:00 that happened, John. Are you serious? That was going on? He said, yeah, it's just paranormal. Nothing on you. It's just paranormal for. What? Wait, so how is this flashlight answering the question? Like one, two, yes, no. One two, yes, no, binary code. Yeah, like one for yes, two for no. And I couldn't believe. And then John said, it's just paranormal. It's just paranormal. with nothing to it. And they go, I just, so I was prepared. I was going because a lot of people just sort of criticize in the back. And he said, anybody wants to come to my house? I said, I'll take up the deal, sure. I, you know, and I'll see if something happens. I heard something that come down the, an orb had come down the hall and John was confronted with this orb. I heard all these

Starting point is 00:25:35 stories, you know, about, and so when I said to John, when I said, did something happen? He said, yeah. And I go, holy shell, these people have found the truth. This is, this is there. But your original experience with this plasma orb, which is so interesting, it was in proximity to this nuclear missile base because that seems to be whenever I hear it's in proximity to nuclear, I go, oh, that's definitely a genuine UFO. Do you have any video of that or photos or anything from back then or of the 1975 experience? We have, we have, there's professional photographs of the, the, uh, uh, uh, UFO. There's three. Amazing. Yeah. So then you're, you're just hooked at that point. You go, I want to figure out what's going on here is that. Well, that was the

Starting point is 00:26:20 the whole thing. So I said, I don't know what's going on, but somebody's got to know what's going on here. And so then there was all these synchronicities. Even this was the synchronicity, because the guy that took the film, that's why the film is missing. The guy that took the film, he was sitting there and they'd been going out every night and paying overtime to these guys. And then the guy said the last night, he said, that's it. You guys want to chase this stupid UFO? You can go on your own. I'm not paying any more overtime. So all the people who were on the crew that caught this thing jumping off the ground. And it's in a documentary UFOs that has begun. and the Eminegger, they did a documentary in 75 and 79,

Starting point is 00:26:54 they really released it called Uofoza has begun. And Jack Ballet introduces this CKY film. May 13, 1975, cameraman Alan Carr of station CKY in Manitoba, photographs two separate sightings over Carmen in front of four witnesses. So when I talked to the guy who did the film, he wasn't even a cameraman. He was a film editor in the studio.

Starting point is 00:27:17 And because the cameraman didn't want to go on his own time, he said, I'll go. And so he'd never shot a camera before. And then 75, the big cameras, you know, and he has this camera set up on the road. And he's telling me the story. He says, you know, I'm looking to the viewfinder. And there's things on the ground and it glows up and it glows back down. It glows up. Goes back down. And then he says, well, they didn't get anything before. Next time it glows up, I'm going to, I'm going to shoot so I've got something on film. And it was almost like the UFO said, you're ready, get ready. And as he pushed the trigger, the thing jumped in the air. And then he, then he was following it. And every time he moved the camera,

Starting point is 00:27:47 he moved the camera and he didn't pick up anything but he stopped the camera at 12 o'clock so when it was on the ground and jumped up he caught it there and then it started to move across the sky and he followed it and at 12 o'clock he sort of stops he could get a film reference from stars and stuff like that and the thing flew the lens and it was doing this wave through the lens

Starting point is 00:28:05 you mentioned CE5 and then you have UFOs showing up around nuclear weapons do you think those are the same thing so the UFOs that show up based on somebody sort of engaging in sort of of consciousness protocol and it comes into their sort of purview. So often those are sort of orbs or plasma-like objects. And then you obviously have all this tampering with nuclear weapons, you know, sometimes actually energy grids. They seem to attract UFOs as well. Do you think

Starting point is 00:28:34 those are the same phenomena or do you think they're different? Well, I think all phenomena. I'm on the contact modality thing with Ray Hernandez, where he gets pulled out of his car. I'm doing a lecture on consciousness. He comes to the lecture and then two, days later he's in this Miami's and a traffic jam, completely stole, listened to NPR about some guy making art out of body fat and he's going, that's pretty weird. And I was like, boom, he's in, he's sort of in this field. And they're showing this wheel and the wheel is moving. It has all these different images like remote viewing, psychic phenomena, UFOs, mediums, all this sort of stuff. And in the middle of consciousness. And the message he gets is you got to quit parsing this stuff.

Starting point is 00:29:11 It's all the same thing. And then bang, he's back in his car. And that's when he gets Edgar Mitchell, they start the free foundation. and they start talking to experiencers. So to me, it's all basically the same thing. It's all connected. And the nuclear missiles, I'm a little bit different. You can, I think you talk more to Jacobs than I do. But I don't know there's been in that case since 2010.

Starting point is 00:29:34 So my idea about the UFO phenomena is it keeps changing stuff. So it's not like people say, well, their neuron nuclear weapons. They've been around nuclear weapon for 16 years. And before that, you've got to go back many years. And everybody talks, they talk about, That's 67. That's like 60, 70 years ago. You got nothing newer. It's like they do that. Then they start the crop circles. Then they stop the crop circles. They do the medallations. Then they stop the medallations. Now we're doing the orbs. And it's almost like they keep changing stuff. And people think

Starting point is 00:30:02 it's always been the same. In 75, there was no light language. There was no crop circles. There was no beams in the sky. There was really no orbs. When we had close encounters with the orbs in 76 in this area, we called them ground lights. We didn't even know. There was not. even the word orbs. So now it's, people always think it's always been the same, but it's changed. And the nuclear missiles was even back in the 50s. That's Wilbur Smith's main message from AFA. So I want to talk about this. You mentioned Wilbert B. Smith. He was involved in something called Project Magnet. He was also in touch with a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who was running the Washington National Labs and was doing a lot of, you know, R&D and atomic work for Vannevar

Starting point is 00:30:43 Bush at the time. So it was like a top nuclear physicist in the U.S. And they were going back and forth openly about UFOs. I think at one point Starbocker says that UFOs are actually classified at two levels higher than the H-bomb. And so tell us about that correspondence in Wilbert B. Smith. Yeah, well, Wilbert was the head radio engineer for the Department of Transfer. He had a master's degree in electrical engineering. And he got interested in hypnosis. He wrote on early article in the 40s on hypnosis.

Starting point is 00:31:15 and he got interest in the UFO fun. He had Kehoe's books and stuff like that. And then the way he tells the story is I went to Washington because he was negotiating FM radio frequencies. And one of the people that worked for him was a metallurgist by name of Art Bridge, who lived really near me in Canada. And he told me, he said, well, do you know what Wilbur did? I said, well, he was head radio engineer.

Starting point is 00:31:38 No, you really know what he did? I said, no. He said he had a super top security clearance. he ran Radio Ottawa. And I said, I said, what's that? He said, well, that's monitoring, the Russian communications. Because he had all the communications.

Starting point is 00:31:52 It was all the radio then. So they were doing the ionosphere tests, bouncing stuff off the ionosphere and stuff. And Wilbur was in charge of all this. And he was, they had the communication stations. If you see the photograph of the UFO, the flying saucer observatory they'd built, it has all these towers, the communication towers.

Starting point is 00:32:12 And it was like basically the NSA of Canada. and he was running this whole thing. So that's why the guy said, you realize he didn't need UFO's to have a top secret security clearance. So he said he went to Washington and he started asking questions. And then people were confirming this. And he said, where there's smoke, there's got to be fire. And so then the Sarbacher thing happened.

Starting point is 00:32:31 So to go to the Canadian Ossie, because it's all done diplomatically. You've got to get permission to talk to people. And at that time, in Canada, it was the Defense Research Board that Wilbur was working with. And there it was the Joint Research and Development Board was headed by Vannevar Bush. So on our side of the border, there was a head guy who got involved. He was on the UFO.

Starting point is 00:32:51 Oman-Slan, was mentioned in the document that Wilbur wrote later. But Wilbur had gone down there and they make this agreement to go through the Canadian Embassy. Now, those documents aren't in the Canadian files, but they are in Wilbur's files. And I recovered all the World Warbur's files.

Starting point is 00:33:05 And we've got this communication with the secretary at the Canadian Embassy. So the Sarbacher was, the interview was set up with Sarbacher by the Canadian embassy, and it may have actually been done in the embassy. So Wilbur goes down there, and that's when Sarbacher's telling them all this stuff. You know, they're insect-like beings, and, you know, there's this high classification, flying saucers are real. So then Wilbur comes back and he writes the famous top-secret memo. And it was one of the few top-secret memos. The

Starting point is 00:33:35 Canadian government doesn't deny it exists. It's there. And it's in the documents and stuff like that. and Wilbur's got his personal copy, which doesn't have the top secret and all that stuff on it. But in there, he says five things. And for many years, I only mentioned the first four. And now I just work on the fifth. He said, flying saucers exist based upon, he said, I talked to American officials.

Starting point is 00:33:55 That's what he said in the documents. He's not talking to people on the street, talking to American officials. And he made this lots of times. He said the UFO hardware is not controlled by the Air Force. It's controlled by American officials, not by the Air Force. So he said, flying sauces exist. It's the most highly classified subject in the United States rated two points higher than the H-bomb.

Starting point is 00:34:13 It's a tremendous significance to the Americans. There's a group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush who are trying to figure out the modus operandi. And then the next sentence that came to me in February 2012 popped in my head. The next line of the thing said we were also told by American officials that other things might be associated with the flying sauces such as mental phenomena. The Americans aren't doing very well because they've said, if we're working on the problem, they're willing to exchange credentials and talk to us. So in 1950, they already knew the mental phenomena was part of the UFO thing.

Starting point is 00:34:43 It wasn't just nuts and bolts, had this mental phenomena thing. This Oman-Slant that he's referring to in the top secret memo is getting this material that he's bringing out at the embassy and they're moving it all into the Defense Department. Wilbur is sending this material and sending the material to Slant. So, yeah, so Salant is the top guy. and in the embassy correspondence, there's actually a document that says, we're waiting for the Americans to make a statement.

Starting point is 00:35:14 We're not going to do anything. We're waiting for the Americans to make a statement. Almost like they're going to confirm there's a crash that this stuff is all real. And then there's another document in Wilbur's files, not in the official files, but in Wilbur's personal files, that says we've sent,

Starting point is 00:35:31 Wilbur had this idea about how propulsion worked. He believed it was electromagnetic fields that they were using the electrical, electromagnetic field of the earth for propulsion and stuff like that. And so he had put that through. And he's in this document, he says, it has been sent to, Kehoe took the document on the propulsion to Vannevar Bush and we're waiting for his opinion. It'll be interesting what he says. So you have this connection actually with Vannevar Bush. And he's named in the top secret memo. So that, but that didn't come out until 82, I think the top secret memo came out when Wilbert died in 62.

Starting point is 00:36:06 And then what happened to me was I had this whole thing where I saw this thing and I said, somebody's got to know what's going on. And it's funny, Sarbacher also started to become more open about UFOs later in life. I believe in 87, he wrote to William Steinman, who had really gone deep on the Aztec crash, but also just general kind of the whole org structure of, you know, majestic 12 and other sort of, you know. Steinman revealed a lot of stuff. He's the guy that found Walker. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:34 He's the guy that found Wang, those whole. story about Wang. I want to get into both. Being moved and and he's the guy that phoned. He told me the story about Bill Moore. So he, he, he just, Wang had worked on the system. He's in the black ops. Yeah, whatever.

Starting point is 00:36:50 He's in the legacy program and they move him to Kirkland and then he's in Kirkland. He dies, he's a heavyset guy. He dies of a heart attack or something in 59. So Steinman finds out about him being moved and he worked on the program. So he phones his wife and he's talking to his wife and asking her all these questions. Steinman was ruthless. I mean, he was one of the best researchers they've ever seen. He was also worked at Skunk Works and was looking into this stuff so much so that his

Starting point is 00:37:14 his superiors said, you know, you can't look into this anymore. He kept doing it. They fired him and then he couldn't get a job. He was basically blacklisted in aerospace after that. Yeah, he told me there was helicopters falling around and then he got into the religious thing. He believed there was some religious thing that he had to play. And he just told me, don't call me again. I'm out.

Starting point is 00:37:32 He was like, boom, he's gone just like that. He got into the, what does that mean? He got into the religion. Well, it was sort of like it was against the religion or something, some sort of thing that it was against what he believed, his wife believed or something like that, that it had part to do with why he had pulled out of it. But he pulled out instantly. And I don't know what happened to his files. He had unbelievable files. So he was talking to Mrs. Wang.

Starting point is 00:37:52 And then he gets a phone call from Bill Moore. And Bill Moore says, what are you talking to Mrs. Wang for? Leave her alone. And he said, how do you know I was talking to Mrs. Wayne? And he said, I'm just telling you, leave her alone. Forget it. And they said, how do you know I was talking to Mrs. Wang. Were you on the call? And then just come over my house on Wednesday night, something like that. And I'll tell you. And that's when Bill Moore tells us start about the CIA. That when he was at university, Bill Moore spoke fluent Russian. So the Russians, they recruited what they do is they recruit people in universities. The star people and they tried to bring him in. And Bill Moore spoke Russian and was pretty smart guy. And they recruited him. And what he told me is he said, I didn't work for them. I did some work for them. But I didn't work for them. I just did some stuff. Whoa. But he. But he did some work for them. I just did. Whoa. But. But he. But he. But he.

Starting point is 00:38:35 He was, I mean, because we all know that he, you know, made this famous speech at Mufon and said that he was, like, used by, you know, possibly like the aviary, this group that seemed to be throwing people off the trail, giving people passage material, that sort of thing. But I didn't know that he literally admitted to Bill Steinman, another UFO researcher, that the CIA had recruited him essentially as an asset. Yeah. And then we kind of know that he was also monitoring Bill Steinman's calls. So he was literally keeping tabs on another. One call. One call for sure. One call at least, probably others, if it's just that one.

Starting point is 00:39:07 That's crazy. Yeah. And then Bill Moore had told him that when he got into the UFO thing, he went back to his contacts in the CIA to help him. That's how he puts a thing together. That makes sense. So here's my question then. You know, Bill Moore is kind of largely responsible for the Roswell story being resuscitated along with Stan Brayden. Which is why they grabbed.

Starting point is 00:39:29 That's why they went after him. Interesting. days after he went on the publicity tour, he got the first phone call. And that was probably from Doty at Albuquerque and said, you're the only guy that knows what you're talking about. So the intelligence knows how to drag people in. Bill Moore had a super ego. He really thought he was smart and he was smart. He was really smart. Now, I think they also, I think they probably got to him before that. The reason I think that is because he wrote the book about the Philadelphia experiment. With Brilett's, yeah. Well, let me actually think. Was that after or before Roswell? It was before,

Starting point is 00:39:59 Right. So Townsend Brown, I think, is really part of like a lot of the core secret of all of this stuff because it deals with the science that I think is usable in the human context, which is kind of anti-gravity. And they wrote this whole thing about the Philadelphia experiment, which a lot of people don't know because it's a lore and it seems so insane, you know, prima facie. The surface level story is that a ship was zapped from a port in Norfolk, Virginia to, you know, Philadelphia. And there was people on board. And, Some ended up melded to the hole. And, you know, they experienced sort of time, you know, displacement and stuff. And we know actually Townsend Brown, you know, moved from Northfolk, Virginia to L.A. actually, to work at Martin Vega Corporation, which was pre-Lockied Martin around that time. We also know he suffered a nervous breakdown around that time. And he ran the project. It was a real project.

Starting point is 00:40:53 So I wonder if Moore's coverage of that somehow, you know, poked the bear a little bit and then they came back and said, hey, why don't you, why don't you do some work for us or something like that? Moore would have had an unbelievable file on Townsend. I mean, he was, he was pretty good. I mean, he interviewed the top scientist that, uh, right Patterson. He had a lot of interviews that, uh, and he put these people all together. They were coming to help him.

Starting point is 00:41:19 So they got the first phone call, said, you're the only guy who knows who you're talking about. And of course, Billmore said, that's right. And then a couple days later, they, he's on a radio show and they said, there's a call for you. And then it's a guy from, from, uh, off at airspace. He said, the only guy knows what you're talking about.

Starting point is 00:41:35 This happened like within 10 days, he had these two phone calls. And then Bill said, yeah, I'm a little guy that knows what's going on. And I had the name of that guy. It escapes me, but we had a guy. He was the same guy that I think leaked the document, um, about the, uh, nuclear missile bases in late 1975. So in late October, 1975 in November,

Starting point is 00:41:57 you had Loring Air Force Base, Wirtzworth Air Force Base, Minot Air Force Base, all with UFOs over there. And one of the stories people don't know that Travis was taken on November the 5th to the 10th, every night that Travis was gone, there was a UFO over a nuclear missile

Starting point is 00:42:14 or a nuclear weapon storage area in the United States. Every night he was gone. Whoa. And so this is this really heavy period of time when they had these nuclear things going on. 75 was a big time, Bud Hopkins got involved. And the phenomena dragged him into it. I want to stick real quick because there was one loose thread there with Steinman,

Starting point is 00:42:36 who is this amazing UFO researcher. And so he approaches Maria Wang, who's Eric Henry Wing's wife. And Eric Henry Wang is this really interesting character because if you read Steinman's book, UFO crash, you know, at Aztec, he talks about Wang being the one guy where when he kind of knocks on the door there, you know, everything goes dark. And people always say, don't talk about Wing. And Wing leads special projects at Wright Airfield,

Starting point is 00:43:03 but he seems to have been kind of scrubbed from the internet. Then he moves down to Kirtland Air Force Base. A researcher friend of mine has actually spoken to his daughter. And she also said, well, you know, originally she was like, I don't think there's anything to the UFO stuff. And then she goes, it's interesting that all this stuff is coming out now, like implying that she kind of knows a little bit more. And she's extremely religious.

Starting point is 00:43:26 So maybe, you know, through kind of getting to wing, Steinman somehow stumbled into the sort of religion. Do you have any idea what that religious thing is? It just seems like I think his wife was involved or something where he was under a lot of pressure. And he was talking about the helicopters following him. And he was really paranoid at the end. He just had this idea that they were going to get him and I'm out. And he, I don't know what happened to his files. Same as Bill Moore's files.

Starting point is 00:43:53 I know a lot went to Greg Bishop. But all his files, I mean, Moore's files would have been, because he was a smart guy, and he documented everything. And I don't know what happened to all that material. He would have had a file in Wang. He would have filed anything he wanted. Moore was really thorough in doing an investigation. It was going to be one or two phone calls. He was almost like Stanton where he had massive files.

Starting point is 00:44:16 And then he pulled out the same as Steinman. He just suddenly, boom, he was gone. He came back for a couple of interviews. I tried to get an interview with him. And, of course, then the eagle came back. I said, you know, I'd like, I'm coming to California. Can I do an interview? He said, Grant, if I didn't figure it out, nobody's going to figure it out.

Starting point is 00:44:33 Give it up. And who is this? Bill Moore. Yeah. Interesting. But he was a really sharp guy. And I knew him all the time. I never thought he was lying.

Starting point is 00:44:41 He has an interview also with John Trump, who's Donald Trump's uncle. Wow. And cosmic conspiracy. No, it's on video, I think. I think he did a lot of research on John Trump, who also probably was knowledgeable. about all this stuff. He was at the MIT Rad Lab. And there was like an official LBJ investigation, right, that you were kind of a part of. Is that right? Okay, I'll tell you the story. So a girl contacts me and she said, I've got, I got some files. And what had happened was James McDonald,

Starting point is 00:45:11 who was the sort of the main guy testified in front of the UN and Congress and stuff like that. He was a guy out of University of Arizona. And he's got a massive collection. I went through his collection and tried to, he was good friends with Arthur Lundall. It was head of the weird desk and he, but it was mostly just like, what's the weird desk? The weird desk is supposedly the place at the CIA where all the weird stuff comes in, all the paranormal stuff. And it's UFOs, it's paranormal phenomena, psychic, you know, remote viewing, all that kind of stuff. It's, it's, it seems like a small desk. Like Kate Green said he only spent 10% of his time. It's like the X-Files of the CIA. Yeah, yeah, they're really weird stuff. What's this guy's name?

Starting point is 00:45:48 Arthur Lundahl. Lundahl. And then it became Kate Green. Then it became Ron Pendolfie. Now Ron Pendolfi's retired. I'm not sure who it is. And then. now. Interesting. So this is the, and this is sort of the, the guys that, that sort of ran it. Anyway, the girl contacts me and she said, I've got, there's a guy did a, they did a study. And the guy's name, I think it was Rand. So she sends me all those credentials, his passes for the White House and stuff like that. And the girl, her friend had the document her and the book. So they'd written a book. This guy was going to write a book on this, on this, this, uh, study that President Johnson had done. And she took photographs of 100 pages of maybe 250 pages. So she sent me

Starting point is 00:46:29 those pages and I said, can you get the rest of it? And nothing really happened on the rest of it. I'm not sure what it was. But I got the 100 pages and it does have the conclusion. And the conclusion is basically the idea that UFOs exist. Their actual metal and doesn't say much more after that, you know, that we don't really know. It's just, yeah, it's right. And then apparently Johnson had said, now go tell, go tell, go tell, the researcher go to hell.

Starting point is 00:46:58 I've done, because they were into the supersonic transport thing, and this guy was against it. There was all this debate where they should have supersonic transports and stuff like that. So James McDonald was putting pressure on the president to do a UFO study. And then you can actually see in the big case

Starting point is 00:47:14 where the UFOs lands in the schoolyard in Australia, he's actually there. He's interviewing. people at that and he actually mentions the fact he's working out of presidential study. So that sort of backs up with the... Wait, Lyndon Bain Johnson was that... No, no, James McDonald. James McDonald's. The study was

Starting point is 00:47:30 being done for James McDonald. He was putting pressure on the president. So they did this and the weird thing about it was if you take a look at the people that were on the panel, has the weird desk, head of Skunk Works, two-star general right Patterson Air Force Base, the head of NRO. It's basically Tom DeLong's list.

Starting point is 00:47:48 20 years. Sounds a lot like to the Stars Academy. 30 years before. It's like the same list of people that it's like we're going to do this thing and we're putting them in.

Starting point is 00:47:57 It's unbelievable. I mean you compare those two lists that it's like a panel. The same panel goes every time. It's like an executive review panel or... And these are the guys that were working on it and like head of NRO and Arthur Landahl was,

Starting point is 00:48:11 I heard stories from Eric Havis Arthur Landau was just obsessed and he was friends with James McDonald. So when I went to, James McDonald's files, of course, I'm looking for Arthur Lundall, and there was this whole bunch of files, and I found some more someplace else. And then I guess I was talking to people whether and suddenly he'll putoff, contacts me, says, and here you got a list of documents from Arthur Lundall, you know, letters and stuff. I said, yeah, could I get a copy of that?

Starting point is 00:48:37 Said, yeah, sure, I said, yeah, sure, I said to copy. So he knows who Arthur Lundall is. You know, and he was, they heard that I had this collection of stuff. I wonder if they interacted. I mean, putoff was obviously, you know, working with at the CIA at that point. Yeah, I don't know. That's the thing. And if he was working the Weird Desk in 75, I mean, and Art de Lundahl was running Stargate in 72,

Starting point is 00:48:58 which is the CIA psychic spy program. So I imagine they interact. Yeah. His most, his famous thing was the, the channeling of the alien at, at the photograph, National Photographic Interpretation Center.

Starting point is 00:49:11 And that's where they analyze all the U2, the SR 71, all the spy photographs come through there. And it was the most highly classified CIA building in Washington. And what they did is they put it above an old broken down car dealership in the slumiest area of Washington. So the Russians would never find it.

Starting point is 00:49:28 They were not realize it's on this upper floor. And the people around there thought that they were printing money because there was so much security around the building. They thought the government was up there printing money in this building. And what happened was it came out of Wilbur Smith. So Wilbersmith was basically doing

Starting point is 00:49:43 what I'm doing, what a lot of researchers are doing. He's trying to find people who are contacting the aliens. So he had all these various people that were claiming they were having contacts like a damski, Williamson, all these people, even towns and Brown, he may have had some correspondence. He had all his correspondence coming from all over the place. And he had, his main woman was a woman named Francis Swan. So Francis Swan lived in Elliott Main, which is really weird. She lived basically down the street from Betty Hill.

Starting point is 00:50:13 And so she's in the blondes, like the good aliens and the, you know, the AFAA one that she saw, he came one time when she was putting up decorations at a Halloween thing and he, she thought he was gorgeous and stuff and she starts to get this guy channeling. And then Navy intelligence picks up on this woman and they go and visit her in 1954. And then they come back and it goes into file,

Starting point is 00:50:37 nothing happens to 59. Then he decided, their story was they're going back to get air time. They fly back to see her again. And that's when this whole thing happens. And Wilbur Smith is using her as well. So you can see the documents from Francis Swan, if you go FBI, Navy intelligence, they'll have this one document. And you can tell, Wilbur Smith is there and they're talking. And what Wilbur wants them to do is overfly Ottawa on August the 1st,

Starting point is 00:51:01 954. And she's saying to Afa, okay, and he's going to fly over, over top of this, he builds this flying saucer observatory, has five different instruments in there, for, you know, radiation, noise, all these different things he's registering. And it has happens a week later. It happens on the 8th. The thing comes flying over and I was talked to one of the guys who was in the building at the time. And he said all the bells went off and the thing went right off the chart and they all went running out. It was overcast so they couldn't see what it was. And Wilbur, of course, was very famous at the time, even in the States. And he put out a statement and said, if there's nothing wrong with equipment, we just detect the first flying saucer over Ottawa. Boom. Shut down Project Magnet said we didn't discover anything. Wilbur can use the equipment, but he's not allowed to make statements. on behalf of the government and game over. Wild. Who do you think came over the top of him? Because if he's running the like basically NSA of Canada,

Starting point is 00:51:55 do you think it was like the American? It would be whoever, like whoever's at the top, would say Oman Slant or somebody like that, would say Who was Oman Slant? He was head of the weapons for the Canadians. He was Vannevar Bush's equivalent. Okay. Vannevar Bush did all the atomic bomb, proximity

Starting point is 00:52:10 fuse, jets, jet engines, plastic explosives, all the World War II inventions. And what happened there is, is once they developed all those things in World War II, they said, hey, this is a great way. Yeah. Because what they were doing is they were grabbing professors. Instead of sending them the war with a gun,

Starting point is 00:52:26 Sarka called them dollar a year, man. So they'd give them a dollar, and during their summer, when they're off for five months, they would work on things. So Eric Walker would build the proximity, the torpedo, the homing torpedo, all these inventions, and Vannevar Bush was running all this stuff with all these professors they pull out of university.

Starting point is 00:52:45 And then they realized, This is a great way to do it. So he set up this research and development board to develop weapons. And that's, before World War II, the Americas really didn't have much in terms of invention. And explain, so you have Arthur Lendall who's running the CIA Weird Desk, which is, you know, he's seeing all the most paranormal, strange stuff coming across his desk. And then who is Francis Swan exactly? Okay.

Starting point is 00:53:05 So Francis Swan is a channeler out of Elliott Maine. So he is working with a channeler. Well, he's working. There's these two Navy guys. And one guy's connected to the CIA. He's got a CIA pass. So he knows Lundal's into this whole thing. So in 59, these guys fly back.

Starting point is 00:53:20 And they say, oh, we're flying back to get airtime and for their ticket or whatever. And so they fly back and then she says, well, why have to do it for you? Why don't I just show you how to do it? And the guy says, okay. And I can remember what the guy's name was. We've got his name. But he sits down in the chair. She puts his hand on, she puts her hand on his right shoulder.

Starting point is 00:53:38 And suddenly he starts channeling. He starts doing the automatic writing. He starts automatic writing. And they go, holy cow. And he's like, whoa. And he goes, running back. And of course, where he's to go? He goes first place,

Starting point is 00:53:46 the head star Lundall who runs the National Photographic Interpretation Center. That's his main job. So go back and say, Art, this woman taught me how to channel. It said, fantastic, sit down. And this is where this memo

Starting point is 00:53:57 that Jack Ballet gave me, it's 11 pages, and it's this document that had what happened in this meeting. Yeah, I think it was July 9th, 1959. So the guy comes back,

Starting point is 00:54:08 they sit him down in the chair, and you start asking him all these questions, and this is all transcribed, and do you favor of world religion? No, in this question, this question and question. And then Arthur Lundahl says, we'd like some proof. And then the guy goes from automatic writing to voice. He says, what do you want? He said, I'd like to assure yourself, when, now, go to the window. And they go to the window, and this flying saucer goes flying across

Starting point is 00:54:31 in front of the Capitol. And the commander, still in a trance, told them to go to the window, and they would have proof. The group moved to the window, where they supposedly observed a UFO. And then they call in Robert Friend, who was running Blue Book. And it's an emergency meeting. They said, you've got to come see this. And they call him in. He flies in from Ray Patterson. And he set up the Chandler again.

Starting point is 00:54:55 They set up this guy. And they do the same thing again. They make the contact. He sat for several minutes and then appeared in a deep trance with his Adam's apple moving up and down rapidly. And then they say, we'd like you to show yourself, the time isn't right. I'm busy. The time isn't right. And it's shut down.

Starting point is 00:55:11 So friend goes back to Ray Patterson. He talks to his commanding general. And he said, this woman is unbelievable. This guy is Adam's Apple moving up and down. He says, something's going on here. We should investigate this woman and see what's going on here. And then the general says, another agency has it hands off. And we never hear anything more.

Starting point is 00:55:30 But Arthur Lundall in these conversations with Dr. McDonnell, James McDonald, is talking about this woman. You can tell he's talking about this woman. It's just amazing case with this woman. And she is some. somehow Lendall is in communication via her with like Townsend Brown and some of these other scientists, or Lendell is directly in communication with town. Well, Lendell's gathering the material.

Starting point is 00:55:51 Like he's basically, you know, gathering all the material from around. Do you know he was in touch with Townsend Brown? No, I don't know. But with a lot of experiencers. Not experiences. He was like James McDonald. Okay. He had a lot of meetings.

Starting point is 00:56:04 McDonald would go to Washington. They'd go for dinner and they would talk and stuff like that. and he was running this operation with this, with this channeler. And I heard stories about when he was dying. He was talking about really weird stuff that he'd never talked about before and stuff like that. He was just, it was sort of like part of his job.

Starting point is 00:56:23 And he was like the guy that went into Kennedy's office. So when Kennedy had the Cuban Missile thing, they do the briefing and they come in and he's got the board. And he said, this is a missile, there's a missile launcher. That was Art de Lundal. And he got an award from Kennedy for that. You mentioned the 1964 Vandenberg's citing, Bob Jacobs.

Starting point is 00:56:41 This is a famous case. You know, I've interviewed him. I find him to be extremely credible. I actually just interviewed a guy named Richard Barth, who the same month in September of 1964 was stationed at Vandenberg Air Force Base and was abducted and taken on a craft while he was guarding a missile station. I was just terrified. The next thing, I know I'm out, you know, and I don't know if I passed out or it's just blank at that point.

Starting point is 00:57:04 then I come to, and I'm inside this, it's a circular room. So pretty wild, you know, and maybe it was the same thing. There is apparently footage of this Bob Jacobs, you know, this, you know, UFO wrapping around this dummy nuclear warhead and Atlas 5 missile. Is that right? Yeah. I think I sent you audio of, I got it from Bob Aminager. Okay.

Starting point is 00:57:29 So Bob Aminager was a producer in, you work for gray advertising, which according to lots of people as a front company for the CIA. And the story was that Gordon Gray? Gordon Gray or? I'm not sure. It was gray advertising. So they ran the UFO past, present, future. Okay.

Starting point is 00:57:45 UFOs that has begun. Yeah. In famous 1988, um, 88 documentary just before Reagan left. And the story was Reagan allowed the, the whole thing about the Falcon and the condor to come out and the alien at Wright Patterson, our first base. That was UFO cover up live. And they had the brought in live feed from, Russia in 1989 and that was gray advertising out of New York and the rumor was that they were

Starting point is 00:58:10 behind us Bob told me the story that that some guy had messed up a documentary on the Vietnam War so they came to him and it was actually Ellen Sandler so it was Bob Eminegger and then Alan Sandler owns the studio and Bob says I was a guy did all the work I did all the music for the thing I did he wrote the book which was a big bestselling book UFO's past present future and he just um um Ellen Sandler just made the connections with the CIA and stuff. Like when Burroughs was regressed, they wanted to do the regression.

Starting point is 00:58:40 They said, what are we going to do? And he said, well, Alan said, hang on. He goes in the next room. Oh, I got two guys. And they were CIA, as regressionists that, they regressed boroughs from the Reynolds from Forest case. And they were involved in. They never put it in their documentaries,

Starting point is 00:58:55 but they had this tape. So anyway, so Bob was getting all this material. And he had sort of gotten authorization. He'd been called to Norton Air Force. Base in about 1973. He was connected to Holloman, who was the chief of staff for Nixon. He'd gone to school with him. Holloman was one year old.

Starting point is 00:59:13 Oh, Haldeman, yeah. But he knew him, and he knew the guy ahead of communications. And so he gets this deal. They go to a Northern Air Force Base. Paul Shardell, a security manager, comes out, and he says, we want you to do this documentary on dolphins. We want you to do this documentary on 3D holography. And we'd look bad in the Vietnam War.

Starting point is 00:59:32 We want to reestablish the American. a good military is a good thing and stuff like that's what they were doing these eight documentaries and that's when he says and we'd also like you do this other documentary on UFOs but we'd like you to hide it below the other eight documentaries and Bob says UFOs are you kidding me and then he's and the guy says yeah real foes you want to do UFOs and the guy said why yeah it's real and he tells about the landing and then Bob's going I can't believe it for all these years I've been saying Margaret's wife she's really into UFOs and all this sort of stuff he says Margaret will you quit reading those tabloids, the alien had my baby. This is so embarrassing. And then he said,

Starting point is 01:00:05 suddenly he's going, they're telling me this is for real. And so he goes, whatever, you know, so they go. And then he said they get access to anything they want. He said, they walked in the Pentagon. They didn't sign in. They were walking the Pentagon and just walk right in and then the guy said in the Pentagon. He said, you guys, you guys are causing us trouble. You, the phone lines like, every time you idiots do something like this, the phone line lights up and we have to deal with all this sort of stuff. And then Alan Saunders says, what the hell are you talking about? You guys invited us here and then the guy shut up. And so they had all this access and they were dealing

Starting point is 01:00:32 with Coleman, who was the spokesman for Blue Book at the Air Force, Colonel Coleman. And they'd been given to Hallman Air Force Base film, which is this famous story that the landing, that this thing landed. It's the basis of close encounters of the third kind. That's where close

Starting point is 01:00:48 encounters the third kind. They have three UFOs. They come over, Haldeman. The two move off to one lands. The door opens according to some people that had flown in generals for this event they knew what was going to happen

Starting point is 01:01:01 it was being filmed from a helicopter Linda House said from four different locations that were filming this thing and the being gets out how did they know it was going to happen? This comes from 59

Starting point is 01:01:12 that all the time there was a story back in the 50s that the American military through the fighter jets were using lights they were trying to communicate with lights to make contact they've always been trying to make contact

Starting point is 01:01:23 and this is a very sensitive subject If you've seen the last interview with James Likatsky, he does an interview a couple months back, and they asked him, have we had communication? And he said, I can't talk about that. Has there, to your knowledge, been any contact at a government level with any non-human intelligence beings? Yes or no? I can't make a statement on that.

Starting point is 01:01:50 Do you know? I can't make a statement on that either. Oh, that's a rough one. And then we asked Walker, Dr. Eric Walker will get into. But we asked Walker, who I think is the highest level contact that anybody's ever had. We said to Walker, has there ever been communication?

Starting point is 01:02:03 We promised not to tell. That's what he said 30 years ago. We promised not to tell. So this communication thing seems to be very, very touchy that they've made communication. But you can see the Francis Swan thing and then the Holman thing that they're making success, that they're making these contacts.

Starting point is 01:02:17 So they land in 1964 at Holloman Airport. There's two different stories. So Bob told me absolutely was May of 1971. And then Richard Doey comes up and says, No, no, no, it was 64 at White Sands and they got lost. And then, so what happens is Linda starts telling the 64 story. I'm saying, no, it's 71. And that's what happens in this world is he put two different stories out.

Starting point is 01:02:38 And then me and Linda started, we didn't fight, but we're right, you're wrong, it was 71. Bob says it was 71. It was 6 o'clock in the morning. He seemed to have all the details of what was going on. And he actually knew where this thing had been parked. They parked the UFO in a hangar. So he talks about when they're doing the filming in 75, they say, we'd like to go to Holloman and film.

Starting point is 01:03:02 So they formed up Holloman. And the base commander goes, you want to do what? You want to come on? This is a top secret base here, crazy, you're not coming out on my base. And the hang of the phone. They had this Verona guy. They had a guy, I think he was a major, a major Verona who was in the Pentagon,

Starting point is 01:03:17 who was their guy that moved stuff around, make calls and stuff like that. And they also had a guy by now Betzky. It was a CI guy that Bob, told me he was on camp he was there every time they filmed he was there the whole project this guy was there sitting there and didn't say what he was doing is dick bettsky guy had his his car and stuff he got so this other one was the uh it was bettsky and then this uh second guy where they're doing doing this the filming and stuff and uh bob says they they he goes to coleman to get the

Starting point is 01:03:52 the film this hallman airspace film which in the end When it came to the end, I said, Bob, you know, it's kind of weird. You know, if it weren't for the location and the time of day, this is, this story sounds exactly like close and cons of the third kind. And he said, I didn't tell you? And he said, no, he didn't tell me what? I didn't tell you. I didn't tell me what?

Starting point is 01:04:13 I didn't tell me that. So the documentary came out in 75, Spielberg's Close and Counts of Third Kind came out in 77. It's the same story. Has Spielberg seen the Harlem and Air Force landing? He gave them the copy of the documentary, at least. Okay. And he said, I told you, Annie Spielberg worked on our production crew. She was a line producer or something on the production.

Starting point is 01:04:34 That was Steven Spielberg's wife? Sister. Sister? Whoa. And so he said, I told you. And then he said, so he came out with Closing Counts of Third Kind. And then he said, Stephen Spielberg's mother came to me. He says, Bob, I've seen your version of the landing and I've seen Stevens version

Starting point is 01:04:48 on a landing. And I like Stevens version better. So there was this whole idea. You start to wonder where these. stuff is coming from. It's being fed because there's a whole story that the beings come out and there's an exchange and that gets into the whole surplus thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, the story, the Holman story is so fascinating. It's like these kind of tall Nordic looking beings with like Egyptian garb or whatever. So it'd make a long story short. Three craft, UAP, craft, UFO

Starting point is 01:05:14 craft came in. One of them landed not on the runway, but on the tarmac close to a hangar. The other two took off and a gangway came down, extended down, and down comes a humanoid looking, very tall NIH being. He looked at Northern European descent. So he goes and meets with them and they go into that hangar. So this film was made of it. And this story has circulated at various times. The Defense Audiovisual Agency under the command of two retired generals, one of those two generals said that

Starting point is 01:05:50 they got intercepted and convinced them not to allow Belay and Heinek to see that film. I've changed my mind. I used to say there was eight seconds of film. And I said to Bob, Bob, there's eight seconds of film in there. Why would they give you that? You told me you took it back. Yeah, they took it back. I said, there's eight seconds of film in there, Bob.

Starting point is 01:06:09 Why would they give it? He said, it didn't show anything. And I said, well, it doesn't. He said, it wasn't up close. You couldn't see the aliens or whatever. And then some guy came out about a year ago and put out a documentary with the high-deaf version of that thing, and he said it was an F4. And I go, it's not an F4, no way.

Starting point is 01:06:24 But it didn't make any sense because it was just this object coming over the hill. So there is a little snippet of the video that does make it into UFO's past, present, and future. And that's this thing that got, like, debunked online, like a year or two ago. And I thought the debunk was pretty good. This DVD, however, was a game changer. I quickly fast forwarded to the landing footage and was momentarily stunned by what that extra detail revealed. It's a plane. The details are faint, but the winds and landing gear are unmistakable.

Starting point is 01:06:57 Okay, but here's the full story. So when I said no, but then when I saw the high deaf, it does look like an F4. I said it's an F4. And then I got a phone call from a guy named Michael Luckman. I don't know if you know him. He was a producer out of New York City, dealt all with Michael Jackson, all these big things. And he wrote a book on music, UFOs and music. And I wrote the book right after him on UFOs of Music.

Starting point is 01:07:21 So he wrote the book. And then he comes to me, we're talking because we're both doing the music books and stuff like that. And he's doing a second book on music. And he comes to me, he says, the hoax is the whole thing. I said, what do you mean the hoax? The whole thing? He said, look at this. And I've sent you the photo.

Starting point is 01:07:34 I've sent you the photo out of the British Museum. It's the, it's exactly the being that it was drawn by. I said, how did they know how to draw it? And he said, the guy who did my storyboards, he drew it. So Shardle described the being and his storyboard guy, was drawing the being, and that's what they draw. It is identical. And I go, holy cow, it is identical.

Starting point is 01:07:54 So I went to Bob and said, hey, Bob, what's the deal here? You have this picture in your book of this being, and it's in a British museum. It's exactly the same being, even has the staff. And he says, well, I'll ask Alan. So you ask Alan, and of course, why I start going back and forth, he says, we'll sue the ass off. He said, Alan was just furious. We're going to sue them and this sort of stuff. And that's where it sort of died.

Starting point is 01:08:16 But then I started to real. So the whole thing was fake? They were given. So they were given, they had to storyboard it. So they were given the film and they had to pull the film back. Then they said, you got a storyboarder the thing, make up the story. So it starts. This may have happened in the future.

Starting point is 01:08:29 It may have happened in the past. And then they do this hypothetical as this thing comes down. So the video in UFO's pastura and future was given to them by the Pentagon. He said, we were given this. Because they said, why? He said, well, that's what they gave us. And the Pentagon storyboarded out this fake thing. Well, he did the whole story.

Starting point is 01:08:46 And then they got the eight seconds, which I was. I assumed was from the actual video, but it doesn't make any sense because the original video, the story is there's three UFOs come in and then the one drops. This is just a single video. Your take is that there is a real event. Yeah. Sandler and Eminegger did see the real video. Sandler saw it for sure. But they essentially came out with this storyboarded fake version of it.

Starting point is 01:09:08 But they may not have even known it was fake. They were given that eight seconds video and they didn't know. And of course, Shardle is describing to the... Which is an age old. tell tactic where you send something, which especially at the time, if you look at that F4 video, it looks like a UFO, you know, like that's going to be hard to debunk then. And so it stays in this sort of liminal space. Sure, that's what they do. I honestly did with Lazar. They put Luzar out there and waited for him to blow up. They knew he was going to blow up. And that's, that's what they do,

Starting point is 01:09:34 is they put something in there that'll discredit the case. And once it gets discredited, then you get the story out, but you don't spill the milk. Once you spill the milk and actually make a statement as to what actually happened, you can't put the back. So you inoculate the public from the truth. It's that whole RAND study thing from the 1960s, that if you don't desensitize people, it's all going to fall apart. So UFO world, you know, especially Intel world, saw that strategy as somewhat effective. And there's a, there's a RAND paper about this where if you put out a conspiracy that is basically like the truth, but you muddy it up and put kind of falsities in it, you put out the truth and then you debunk it. And then you're crazy. If you believe it.

Starting point is 01:10:17 this stuff and it and it's kind of debunked for good like it's it's kind of radioactive if anybody else wants to look at it going but it's still but it still keeps going the story keeps being retold whatever the story is people don't believe it but it just keeps going keeps going but then that makes things like the bob was our story really important because they they are true and so so not falling prey to the the strategy is actually like looking into the boblazar story and realizing that this actually happened in your opinion or what do you well well you remind me to go back to the the strategy is actually like to the the film at Vanderberg, but the bizarre thing, my interpretation in NAP said he thought, and John Lear told me he thought my version was the closest. I think it was...

Starting point is 01:10:56 Well, real quick, just before you get into that, film at Vandenberg, does it exist now? Because Lou Elizondo, you know, said that in an interview with me, like, you know, a couple years ago. So you've seen the video. Yeah. So you know this is a real thing. Yeah. Oh my God. But I don't know what to make of it. Do you think that... Okay, so I gave you the clip of Bob Emineger talking about it. So what happened was, Bob had all this film. And so I'm talking to him about, they sent the film back.

Starting point is 01:11:21 And then he said, we got film from NASA, we photographs, all this sort of stuff. And I said, so he sent the Holloman thing. Did you send the other stuff? Maybe you talked about that film

Starting point is 01:11:30 about Vandenberg where they shot down the missile? He goes, no, I don't think we sent that one back. And I go, you didn't send it back? I said, where is it?

Starting point is 01:11:40 And he said, I guess it's in Alan Sandler's Bolt. I said, really? And he said, yeah, I'll ask Alan. So he comes back and he says, yeah, Alan's got it. And then, so I was, at the time, I was working on a book on the president, which she never did with, with Angela Joyner, who broke the Stevensville, Texas story. And I ended up losing her job and never worked again after

Starting point is 01:12:00 she lost her job. And so I was working with her. And I said, Angela, we got this film. We know, I know what this film is. We get it off Sandler. Man, we'll be famous, man. This will be the, I'm an unbelievable film. He's got the film. So she was good friends with, with Bob Mnager, and Bob liked her and stuff like that. So they made this deal. And Angela Joyner could go to Oregon to Sandler and he was show her the video, but she had to go by herself. I couldn't go. And there was always the story that Sandler liked women and stuff. And so I heard this rumor, and she really don't want to go by herself. So then it came down and then she said, I'll tell James Fox. So she told James Fox about it. And then James Fox,

Starting point is 01:12:41 really? So then he went and he contacted Ellen Sandler and then Ellen said if you if you want it, it's $25,000 to use in your your documentary. I think that was to use in the documentary. So James went around recruiting and suddenly got to $25,000. He went back and he said, okay, I got $25,000. Can I use the film? And he said, no, I talked to my lawyer. My lawyer said, you got lots of money. You don't need $25,000. This will ruin your life. Forget it. You know, turned down. You don't need $25,000. So he said, no, I'm not going to do it. So James went to, they were dealing with Congress. So they went to the, I don't know who it was in Congress, these congressional committees.

Starting point is 01:13:17 And then he said, this guy's got a classified film. It's top secret. Quintnell, his name is on the cover of this thing. It's top secret. It still belongs to the government. He's got an illegal film. And so then it was the deal where they'd go back to Sandler and Congress was going to go back and say, you have to turn over the film.

Starting point is 01:13:34 And we're going to get the film. And Congress is going to release the film. And then James said, the deal, he felt the deal with Congress was that he would get a copy of the film. for his documentary in exchange for them, him helping move the film. So the film, I guess, is still in Sandler's vault. Where does Sandler live? In Oregon. Interesting.

Starting point is 01:13:53 Yeah. And so he's got that. And Bob talks about that. They brought in the guy that did the analysis for the Robertson panel. Yeah. And he viewed it. And he said it's one in a million. So the video, it's reported that the video is actually really amazing.

Starting point is 01:14:08 Like, it's a really incredible video. Yeah. And they brought in an, and how long? Well, I won't Samler just let it out. You have the president of the United States literally tweet in saying, you know, we need to get to the bottom of this. I've tasked Pete Hed Seth, the secretary of war with looking into UFOs getting to the bottom of this complex issue. Why doesn't Sandler just put this thing out? He'd be the people's champion.

Starting point is 01:14:30 Yeah. That's what I would. But that's the thing I found is I like, I've liked so many documents. And I'm saying, is anybody ever just leak a document? Am I the only person? It's leaking documents here? And I know a lot of people are just sitting on stuff for whatever reason. I don't know why they're sitting on, like when I had the Wilson League document,

Starting point is 01:14:45 when I put that thing on the internet. How did you get your hands on the Wilson Davis memo? I was approached by James Rigney out of Australia. So the way that the chain of custody was Mitchell had it. He had died. Every other family was interested in, all the space stuff because it was worth piles of money. And the files, the UFO stuff, nobody was interested in. So there was an aerospace guy there, you know, from Australia who said, well, don't throw it out.

Starting point is 01:15:14 I'll take it. So he had this big pile of documents and he takes it back to Australia. And James Regney is going to visit this guy, seven hours away or something. And the guy says, I got these documents from the Edgar Mitchell collection. And he's looking through him. I go, holy cow. And he starts photographing these documents. And he keeps them for a long, I don't know how many years.

Starting point is 01:15:31 He has them. He keeps them. And then we're at this conference together. And he gets this vision in the middle of the night that he should get this document. out. So he wakes up and he phones his wife. He says, scan the document. Two documents. I think the second is better than the first. The one that everybody's interested in is the Wilson Leak document. I like the other one better. But anyway, he gets the first couple pages of the document of the Wilson Leak document. He puts it on a little iPad. So I'm leaving the hotel. I'm going to Tucson

Starting point is 01:15:59 and I got to make it. I'm not on time. And then he comes, he says, can I show you something? I said, well, I'm kind of busy. I'm heading out right now. And he said, this is important. Can I, can I show you something? And I said, well, James, you know, I've got to be in Tucson at six o'clock and all this or stuff. And he said, okay, 10 minutes. So he says, he gives me the iPad, he walks off. I look at the iPad. First page, I see Oak Shannon. Or they, now, some people call him Oakie Shannon. I call him Oak Shannon. I see Oak Shannon's name. I see Eric Davis's name. And I go, oh my God. This is a real deal. What is it? because it's a document, but I really didn't read it.

Starting point is 01:16:39 I've never read the document. I was, I was going to put it out, I never read the document. All I was interested in was nobody in the world knows who Oak Shannon is except for me because Eric Davis had given me his notes from the advanced physics theoretical working group. So I knew who Oak Shannon was and I knew he was the real deal. And there's Eric Davis talking and it starts on this stuff. And I'm going, what am I going to do? Like, I got this thing.

Starting point is 01:17:01 Should I try to photograph it? Well, because he may not give me the document when it comes back from work. wherever he went. Should I try to photograph this thing and, you know, get it, get it serenitiously? And then he comes back and I said, where do you get this thing from? And then he told me the story and I said, I'm putting out a book next year. Do you think I could just put it in the book? And I wouldn't say nothing. I was put it in the book. That's how we got on the internet. Just put it in the book, not say anything about it. And somebody's going to pick up on it. It's like, where did this document come from? And then it was sort of blow

Starting point is 01:17:30 away because my problem with the document when I, when I saw it, the two pages was bad. But when he send it to me. It was 15 pages long. And I'm going, oh my God. And it's like all the people, I know all the people in the document. And it's like, now I'm going to go cut their throat. And I'm thinking, oh, I don't know if I can do this. And that was where I got the lawyer. And I'm going like, I don't know what to do with this thing. I got to get it on the internet without me being in the middle of this. Because Eric Davis is me, you know, like he may lose a security clearance over this. And I'm thinking, this is, this is not good. And then he sent me the alien autopsy document. And I had Kit Green. And I'm going, holy shoot, all this.

Starting point is 01:18:05 stuff and then he sent me two other documents. One was a condolence letter to the guy who flew, the first guy flew across the ocean, his wife. Charles Lindbergh, when he died, there was a condolence letter, the Edgar Mitchell said. So that was one. Then there was another one that talked about the meetings, the Nids meetings, when they're happening, all this sort of stuff. So you gave me four documents. And so I, I figured out what I was going to do. And then some guy said, I said, well, in the end, I said, okay, I'm not going to cover it up. Anybody asked me for the document because I was talking about it. They say, can I get a copy of the document? Yeah, sure. And then they would leak the document. And I would be sort of out of my hand. So the one guy said, can I see it? So I said, yeah.

Starting point is 01:18:43 And so I sent it to him. And he was an AI expert. And then he phones me, he said, let me deal with it. And then about a month later, he phones me from me. He says, I'm in an elevator in Chicago. He said, you know how that document you gave me? I think it just went on the internet. And it was on the internet for months and months, months before Dolan found it. It was on there. And then when Dolan found it, of course, it just blew up and suddenly it was viral. And there was all this thing about it was hoax and all this stuff. We knew right away. I mean, there's no way this thing is hoaxed. We knew exactly where they come from. And it caused probably the biggest break in the whole thing that's real, that there is actually a legacy program and it's cut off from high-level people.

Starting point is 01:19:21 If you don't have a need to know, you don't get to know. So that was that. Yeah, the Wilson Davis memo definitely sort of a revelation, but also took place to after Bob Lazar. And so I want to talk about Bob Lazar because he's this really important guy who I think, you know, really is leading modern disclosure in some ways because you have all these high-level guys

Starting point is 01:19:42 saying there's an existence of reverse engineering craft retrieval programs now as high up as the director of national intelligence, you know, former DNI, James Clapper, you know, John Brennan, you know, multiple CIA directors, Woolsey, people like that now saying that this is a thing. But then no one seems to have worked

Starting point is 01:20:00 worked on the craft, except this one guy, you know, from, uh, from 1989. And so, uh, you have a really interesting theory about, about Bob Lazar and I'd love to hear. Yeah, the way I looked at it and John sort of agreed with me was, um, the intention of the whole thing was the, the idea where you're doing this gradual disclosure thing. So you got to sort of tell people, we have UFO. So people sort of had, yeah, yeah, they probably got UFOs. Probably working on it. But then the idea we got crafts and that they had them at Area 51. So basically they take a guy who's a, you know, a pirate, flag over his, over his house, he's got jet engine cars, he's like totally crazy man. You know, after the event, he's doing computer work for the, for the, the, the prostitute

Starting point is 01:20:41 and all likes their stuff. And he's just like a wild guy. And they figure it's, the whole thing is, if you want to, if you want it out, you give it to the president to make a speech, but they're not doing that. So they give it to somebody whose reputation is, is really not that good. And then the person puts the thing out and it gets out and nobody believes. it, but the story starts to float around. And it gets repeated, repeated, repeated, and then everybody says, well, they got crafts at Area 51. Now, so what I believe happened was the story about the teller is right.

Starting point is 01:21:15 But the thing is, he phones Teller in November, and he's on the base December the 6th, and he's got a top secret cue clearance. I mean, you can't get a top secret queue clearance in three weeks. There's no way. And it's almost like, hey, let's put this guy on the base, because he gets out. asked the question, but tell her, do you want to work at Livermore or do you want to work up at the site? And he said, well, I like to work up at the site. So he gets that offer and he goes up there. And then exactly what I think they intended him to do was the newest friends with John Lear.

Starting point is 01:21:44 He first, he didn't believe anything John Lear said. And then suddenly he said, well, you know, maybe this is true. And he starts, you know, looking at it or whatever. And when he gets up to there, he comes, I think it's December the 6th, John Lear tells me a story. I'm sitting there. He says, I'm writing checks. And Bob Lizar comes in and he says, John, it's real. He said, what do you mean? It's real. It's real. It's real. They've got it. It's up with the site. He said, is it theirs or ours? He said, it's theirs. He said, what the hell are you doing in my house? You know, the phone's going to be tapped? You know, they're going to be watching you. Were you crazy? Get back and go back to the site. Go back to the site and come back in six months and tell me what's going on. And then I started looking at how it unfold. So he comes in there,

Starting point is 01:22:22 and I train people. So I know, like, you're training people. You're showing what the washermy is. You know, the second day, second visit there, he's getting, he's getting, he's these documents. He's got like 125 documents and he's reading all this stuff. It's a need to know program. He's talked about, you couldn't talk to the guy across from you and it was so compartmentalized, but they give him all these documents and tell them about all these programs. And the one that gave it away was the idea that there had been a shootout down below in a base at Dulce. And that 64 special forces guys got killed because they had arms and they were not allowed to have arms and the gray he shot them in this story. And Bob had one of the documents that had happened

Starting point is 01:22:58 another area 51. I go, oh, they're doing it again. They're putting two stories out and, and this sort of thing. And so I said, well, what they wanted is they wanted to show him. So they take him to the site to show him all this kind of stuff. And then they bring him back to John Lear. And they want John Lear. John Lear is going to tell the story. And everybody at that time knew John Lear was a wild card. He was just, you know, he was off the rails. People are like, he was insane. And, you know, he's doing all the stuff with the MJ12 and the underground bases and, you know, you know, people being assassinated and all sorts of stuff he was into. And it was like John would tell the story and everybody would go, yeah, it's John layered and

Starting point is 01:23:34 listen to John Learer. But the story would get out. And as Nap even admits, so he was like the National Enquirer at the time. Yeah, they needed a story up, but they needed plausible liability. Yeah. He needs this thing to fall apart. So they have all the stuff like the school and the, all the stuff that would, people would find out about and it would discredit the story, but the story would come out. And that's where NAP says, well, if this was a counterintelligence operation, it hung the guy that, that came up with it, because it totally backfired, because what happened was, and I have a different view. I mean, you guys in contact with Lazare, you can confirm with him. But my understanding is through Tim Good, who had interviewed

Starting point is 01:24:10 him at the time, was that he only been at the base five or six times. If you take a look at his W-2 form from 1988, it's only 900 bucks. He was there for a month, 900 bucks. He can't be working full-time. And so the whole thing was, my understanding, I may be wrong, that According to Good, he had been to base five or six times and that in the beginning of the year, he was no longer being called to the base. And so he, that's when he took John Lear and Huff and the wives and stuff. They took John Lear's motorhome and they went up there and they filmed this thing. And the thing was that they filmed at 8 o'clock Wednesday night or whatever it was, Thursday night or whatever. They tested the same time every time. And this thing came up for the mountain and John filmed it on

Starting point is 01:24:53 camera. I told John Lear too. Yeah. And you even brought them to see the test. Yeah, because I had the test flight schedule. Yep. So I know it's on Wednesday night. Yeah, we're going out there and you guys are going to see it. This is John Lear. And today is March 22nd, 1989.

Starting point is 01:25:12 We're standing just about eight miles due east of Groom Lake, Nevada, the super government secret test site. And the question is, if Lear, if Bob Lazar, was, he said the senior scientists, but wouldn't have been a senior scientist just starting, how, why would they tell him? It's the need to know. If he can't talk to the guy sitting across,

Starting point is 01:25:34 why would they tell him when the test is? He wasn't being allowed up at the site. So that's why he got upset. And that's when he took people out and he said, I'll show you. And he started taking people out to the site. And that's when he got, that's when they got caught the third time.

Starting point is 01:25:46 And they bring them to Indian Springs. They put a gun to his head. And they said, we told you this the top secret. It didn't mean go tell your friends and stuff. They never fired him. So why did they not fire him? They didn't fire him. Lear tells the story.

Starting point is 01:25:58 He was held at gunpoint after he showed Gene Hough and John Lear. This Dennis guy said. And they still didn't fire him. They didn't fire him. They said, because your wife is fooling around, you got psychological problems. We're going to pull, they pulled his clearance for a while or something like that. But then gets invited back to the base. And he's so scared, he doesn't want to go back to the base because he figures,

Starting point is 01:26:20 he remembers the same drinking this stuff that was really bitter and he couldn't, his memory didn't go. And he figures, if I go on the base, he's so I go on the base. I'm never coming back. So he turned them down. They invited them back to the base after this event happened. And that's the whole thing. They wanted more stuff out.

Starting point is 01:26:34 Chris, is that true? That he was still invited back to the base. Hey guys. Today's episode is brought to you in partnership with Ridge, one of the early OG supporters of the show. I adore their stuff. I love the wallet. It's super sleek and thin yet rugged.

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Starting point is 01:29:35 D-N-N-Springs and they put the gun to his head, told him, told him when you said it was top secret that they mean to bring your friends out to look at the test. The question is, how do you know when the test was? If he's just a new guy, and it's all compartmentalized, well, you know, how's you know where the test is going to be? And then the other thing is that, that he said, they didn't fire him. They just pulled the security clearance for a period of time because his wife was fooling around with the, with the aviation guy.

Starting point is 01:29:56 There was a gap. Yeah. And then they call him back to the base. And then he turns it down. So he never did get fired. And if it's top secret and all this stuff, you'd fire the guy on the spot, which means they wanted to take him back on the base

Starting point is 01:30:07 because they still need them to go tell some more stuff out there in the public. They wanted some more stuff out. Wow. And maybe Tim Good is wrong, but Tim Good said he was only there a couple of times at the base. And that's why he brought people to the base. He was so upset that he wasn't getting called up to the base.

Starting point is 01:30:21 To be clear, your view is that Bob Lazard did work on genuine UFO craft. He was there. That is not of human origin. You just think that maybe one of his superiors wanted this out, knew that he was discreditable. And so kind of pushed the thing out. And it was a counterintel op gone awry because it blew up way beyond what they never expected him to go on Joe Rogan. Then he had this thing where it happens by accident, where, uh, you know, Knapp calls up John Lear.

Starting point is 01:30:52 And he said, I'm missing a guest on tonight's show. They pulled out. I need a live guest. Well, you got the gap at the base, let's put them on camera. And then they do the back thing with the dentist, where they put them back lit. And then it goes viral around the world. It just blows up. And that's what they didn't expect. They didn't expect that a guy with all these Peabody awards and Emmys and stuff

Starting point is 01:31:10 would suddenly do the story. And it would suddenly, it's got credibility and goes viral. And that's where they had to, they had the land where people were going up to Bobby Goodman had a radio show at the time. And he was every night. It was like coast to coast. Everybody's listening to this thing about the base and what's going on and the Lazar story. And it was just viral. And then he was taking buses up on the weekend. All these buses would go up and sit up on top of the mountain and they would actually watch the base. They could watch things landing on the base and stuff like that. So that's when Clinton took all this land back.

Starting point is 01:31:40 They made a land grab to take more land away to force people and make the base bigger. So they were 25 miles away instead of 11 miles away from looking at the base. They also brought him out to see a test himself at the site. Yeah. And where he went under the craft and he saw it flying above him and stuff. And that's the thing. They show you different things. Like Bob,

Starting point is 01:31:58 I'm going to hear of this story. The same thing. He told me a bizarre story that DARPA, when he was doing UFOs pastura and Shush, they took him through DARPA and he was seeing all the stuff they were doing, all the weird stuff. And the one he said was a room with a computer in it. And he was in there and this guy was sitting at this table.

Starting point is 01:32:14 And he said to the guy, he said, tell Bob what you're doing. I can't. It's not clear it. I can't tell him. He said, tell me. you doing. He said, I'm talking to this machine with my mind. And then Bob says, okay, tell him this word. And the computer, Bob says, it was like a voice like Stephen Hawkins.

Starting point is 01:32:29 Well, I come over with the word was weather. And he's going, holy cow, this guy was doing this test. This is 1974 or whatever. And this guy's been this mental thing with this computer at DARPA. And so Bob said he got these tours as well of all these different weird things that the military was doing and stuff like that. And they sort of wanted out that they, and that's why they use film people because they want you to fictionalize it, just tell the story. And even if you get everything wrong, or Chase Brandon, if you remember the Chase Brandon's story. Yeah, of course. So Chase Brandon comes out and he writes the Christos conundrum. And then he says

Starting point is 01:33:00 he's going to write another book on UFOs. And the Christos conundrum was the idea of how did the CIA handle the Roswell crash. And it went through review, according to some of the stories, eight times. And it was like, change this, change that. And it's the whole story. Like if you say that you want to tell your story, you're a spy, you save the world from nuclear attack, yeah, you can write your story, just change the names, change the dates. Do you think other elements of that story are true? So this idea that it's this guy Chalmers, this mathematical whiz, he's a part of the OSA, which is an

Starting point is 01:33:29 offshoot of the OSS, you know, this pre-CIA organization in the 40s, and they find this like crystal tablet that reads timelines. There's a committee that's brought together that sounds a lot like the Majestic 12, this elite military scientific, you know, intelligence unit that like governs the UFO issue, but that he almost goes in and out of like liminal space where he's like taught things by these beings and then comes back and that sort of determines how, you know, the government operates at a really high level. Do you think that any of that he starts the book off with this Francis Bacon quote that some truths are so unbelievable that you have to tell them in fiction?

Starting point is 01:34:08 Exactly. He was the guy, the CIA guy in Hollywood. And that's a pseudonym, by the way. We don't know who Chase Brandon is. And he's gone. He's disappeared. Yeah. He's supposed to do it to do the U.S.

Starting point is 01:34:17 awful book and he didn't do it. But I'll quote what he said. If you want to go to read, read my book. You want to learn something, read between the lines. So he said, that was his job. You're doing a movie on the CIA. He comes to you and says, hey, Jesse, you're doing a movie on the CIA. Yeah. You ever been to CIA? I could take you to CIA. You could look through the CIA. You could take it for a tour. And then you have a better understanding of what we do. And so it's like the idea, instead of killing you, they walk you down the path. They want you to walk. They try to get in front of the parade and lead you. and they use these manipulation tactics

Starting point is 01:34:49 to get people going in the right direction. So Chase Branden was one of these people who just sort of came out and disappeared. It was this idea that they do control Hollywood. They do come in. And like Eminiger said, there was somebody on the set the whole time, a CIA guy never left the set. And that the guy from communications

Starting point is 01:35:06 that was head of communications for Nixon phoned up every single day while they were taping, every day. Speaking of being, you know, pushed down the wrong track by Intel, I think a lot of the people who have been at the forefront of disclosure for the last 10 years or so seem to be really excited that Trump is making an announcement. And it's interesting to me that it almost feels like their plan is being sort of executed in some ways. Do you find any like daylight between the way you view the phenomenon and the kind of, I don't know, like mass disclosure kind of narrative that's being, you know, this idea that because it seems like they're saying all

Starting point is 01:35:46 these things like crash retrieval programs you know um reverse engineering operations these we have we've had programs forever they're saying all this stuff and then you see like conspirators you know people online who are like very kind of like you know anti-authority and they're like now that like people who are high up at the CIA and DNI are saying this stuff you know like we think that this is like BS and some sort of narrative but then if you actually quiz them on like their belief system they're like yeah we believe we've had crash retrieval programs, reverse engineering. So I'm like, what is the core secret? Because that can't be the most important.

Starting point is 01:36:22 Because I actually agree. I think the irreverence towards those organizations is very valid given this history, this pattern that you're talking about. So I'm like, is the crash retrieval and reverse engineering operations can't be the most vital thing. There has to be something interesting kind of metaphysically or in physics that exists beneath that, that people are, you know, from those intel organizations. are trying to, you know, steer people clear of?

Starting point is 01:36:48 Or are they just literally trying to get it out at this point? Are they like, this is their last gasp and they're trying to get it out? No, they're pushing the hardware thing. If you talk about the core secret, I think the core secret is still the consciousness thing. Okay. It's this idea that it's not what you think it is. So when you hear Jimmy Carter, so Fox asked Jimmy Carter. So why do you do something when you were in the government?

Starting point is 01:37:11 He said there are many possibilities, but nobody has answers. Did you ask when you were president? Yes, but there's a lot of different answers and nobody knows has proof of things. And then if you listen to Barack Obama, he said, yeah, the videos are real, yeah, we don't know what's going on. There's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are.

Starting point is 01:37:32 We can't explain. If you listen to Jim Semivand, he says, just because you've got bodies and crafts doesn't mean, you know, what's going on. And he tells this story about the seven-hour briefing. They tell him, these high-level guys tell him, get a room in the CIA for six to eight hours. We're going to come and talk to you. And he said these guys come in.

Starting point is 01:37:48 They're from contractors. They're from military. They all got as many tickets as he has. And they walk in and he said, the scale of living shit on me. They're in there. And he said they went to this whole thing. And then, of course, he gets asked in the interview,

Starting point is 01:38:00 well, what are they fine? What about UFOs? And he said, nothing. They haven't got anything. He says, I'll make a bet. I'll bet one year of my pension against anybody. They haven't got a clue what's going on. Because you've got bodies and crafts.

Starting point is 01:38:11 It doesn't mean you're going to know what's going on. Yeah, we got bodies and crafts, but we don't, we don't understand it. He said, but what they told me? He said, what did they tell you that scared you? And he said, they said, all the size stuff is right. Everything. It's all right. All this sort of stuff.

Starting point is 01:38:23 And he said he walked around. You got to remember, this guy was head of covert ops for the U.S. government, for the CIA. And he said he walked around for three months and a day's, he was just, he blew him away. Whatever they told him blew him away about this size stuff. And then he said, his wife would ask him, Jimmy, okay. And he couldn't tell her what was wrong or whatever, what he had seen or whatever. And he said, he just sort of, and then they said, would you like another briefing? He said, no more briefings.

Starting point is 01:38:47 I don't want to hear anymore. And it just blew him away. So this is this whole thing. And even you get Likatsky, the latest interview he got. And you start reading between the lines. And I'm just working on this now, is this connection between near-death experiences and UFOs. So you get this story that Lekatsky tells the story. I was in a congressional facility.

Starting point is 01:39:09 He puts this chapter six, first thing in this book a year ago. We're in a congressional facility, which means Congress is learning something because he's in a congressional, probably in a skiff. And he said, with a senator, which was, Springs confirmed it was Senator Reid,

Starting point is 01:39:23 in a skiff. And we told them that we had breached the craft. We'd gotten into the craft. And there was nothing in it. And then so he starts getting interviewed about this. And he won't go. He won't go there. So what's in the craft?

Starting point is 01:39:35 I can't talk about. Can't talk about it. Can't talk about it. Can't talk about it. Me, the question was, they breached the craft. It's like 2011, you got in the craft in 2011.

Starting point is 01:39:45 So then they finally asked him this time. They said, can you talk about how you briefs the craft, how you breached the craft? So I can't talk about that. And so the question comes down, you hear this story that people will talk about that the craft is alive, it's conscious and that, Sir Fatti tells the story.

Starting point is 01:40:01 I know if you've heard talking about it, but Jack Sartrety tells the story. He's got a friend. He's a Navy friend. And he said, I got 99.5% that this guy's telling me, there's not making me up. He's got a craft on the East Coast. to the United States, it's in there, and they couldn't breach the craft.

Starting point is 01:40:14 They couldn't get inside the craft. Because the craft works, it's alive, it's conscious, and it's got an attitude that unless you vibrate at the right level, you can't get in the craft. So this guy managed, I guess he qualified, and the craft would open. And the thing just opens up, like molten metal, the side of the craft opens. He goes in, flew the craft, it goes back together again. But unless you have the right attitude, that's how you get inside the craft. And that's why they couldn't breach the craft.

Starting point is 01:40:39 They couldn't figure out to get into the craft. these stories. They're using drills that couldn't get in the craft, that the craft lets you in or it doesn't let you in. That's what Sarfatti is telling me this story right now. He's telling the story of his friend that he's a physicist working for the Navy in his facility on the East Coast with this craft. And then you start looking at near-death experiences and people talk about near-the-experience. And I've got a whole list of maybe 20 so far, probably going to get more. 20 these people said, I'm in, I'm in a near-as experience, I'm going in this building. And the building looks like it's alive. it's made out of granite, but it looks like it's alive. The rocks are alive. And to go in and there's

Starting point is 01:41:15 these rooms. And the only way you can get in the room is if you vibrate at the right level, they're teaching different things. And the thing opens up like molten metal, it opens up in the door. And if you're available to go in to be taught and it closes up, and I'm going, that's exactly what the UFO thing talks about. Same as you talked about the crystal. So let me tell you the story of the crystal. This is where you see these crossovers where you start wondering. What should be going on here? So you talked about, Chase Brandon, talking about this crystal. You can see the past, future, and all this kind of stuff. And I've even asked Richard about this now.

Starting point is 01:41:44 Richard Dodi tells the story. The most amazing thing you ever saw in the military was a crystal. The aliens had this crystal. They could hold this crystal and they could show you the crucifixion of Jesus that could show the past and the crystal. It was the most amazing thing you ever saw. So I got a friend as an experiencer. He's a Mormon guy out of Utah.

Starting point is 01:41:59 Wait, who said that about the crystal? Richard Doty. Okay, but, yeah. Okay, hang on. So you got one story about the crystal, but looking in and seeing time. And you're talking about Chase Brandon, to talk about this thing, timelines. For sure.

Starting point is 01:42:11 You can see that. I just don't trust that. Okay. Okay, but again, so I got this friend. So this guy's a Mormon guy. I mean, he's actually in the hospice care. He's been fighting to stay alive for the last five years. But anyway, so he tells me a story.

Starting point is 01:42:23 And he says, Elby, who is his being, everybody always has a being. You say, you're on the craft. What's name of the being? And everybody has a name. It's an English name. And they talk, one being tells them everything. And you start running. Is that a spirit guide?

Starting point is 01:42:35 Is that an alienian? Like, what's going on here? Anyway, Elby takes them to spirit roles three times. First time he's sort of in the dark. Can't see anything. Second time, he's sort of in the dark, but he's, here's his mother. He can talk to his dead mother. He's talking to his dead mother.

Starting point is 01:42:48 The third time, you take him right into the spirit world. So he's in the spirit world with his mother and then this field. You know, there's classics. Beautiful field. The grass is talking to you. It's just beautiful flowers and wonderful feeling and stuff like that. And his mother says, Ron, see that building over there? And he said, it looks like a little tiny Mormon temple over in the distance.

Starting point is 01:43:09 And she says, Ron, when you die, you're going to get a room in this building. And so they go over the building and she says, your father's got a room in the building. And you say, this portal opens up and he gets his father inside his room. So he goes in, and this is where the catch comes. So he goes in the building, he said, granted, it's a weirdest thing. I went inside and it was 10 or 100 times the size inside. And I'm going, 100 times the size, even a UFO or are you in a spirit oil here? Because you hear the stories.

Starting point is 01:43:36 Chris Blessel, how's the story. It's 30 feet on the outside. And he looks inside, and it's the size of the football same. He looks back outside, it's 30 feet. That's common. Yeah. Yeah. And so this guy's telling you, it's in a spirit world.

Starting point is 01:43:46 And then he goes in the spirit world, and he goes and he says, his mother takes him down this building and down, and there's a table. And the table has these crystals coming out of the table. And I said, crystals? And I said, yeah. And he said, you take a look at the crystal at a certain angle and you can see all your past lives and you can see all your lives and stuff. I said, really?

Starting point is 01:44:04 And he said, yeah. And he said, his mother said, you don't have a crystal yet, Ron, because you haven't died. as soon as you have a crystal, your crystal will come out of the table. And then he sees his dog's crystal. And he looks at his dog's crystal. And his dog disappeared in 1972 or something like this. He never knew what happened to his dog.

Starting point is 01:44:19 And he's watching the crystal of the dog's life. And he saw the neighbor came, shot the dog through it in the back of a pickup, and took it the dump and threw it in the dump. Who is this guy? His name is Ron Johnson. He's got incredible stories. What's his background? He was just a heavy equipment operator, stuff like that.

Starting point is 01:44:37 Was he working on crash retrievals or reverse engineering? Who was Sarfati's friend, the Navy guy? I had a name and I put it to some people and said, no, that's not the guy. I had one name that I thought it was. But people denied it. So I'm still trying to figure what the base was. I think Lou Elizando talked about the base. Okay.

Starting point is 01:44:54 There's a base on the East Coast, the Navy facility, I think it's called it. Yeah. On the East Coast. And I think that's the base where this guy was. But we were still trying to identify who this guy was that told the story about flying craft. And he was in charge of the project. Do you think there are UFO bases around in mountains or underwater? Yeah, the mission ramah, people always talk about the beings under Mount Shasta and stuff like that.

Starting point is 01:45:18 But the question is, if you're a being and you come across time and space, like, why do you need to have a base? Totally. It doesn't make any sense. It's almost like, I think it's more a theoret than, you know, than physical when it comes to the beings. They can sort of go in, like you'll have people, dead people coming on to craft. So the question is, dead pets. So are they bringing these people back into physical reality into our experience where the person is being abducted, physical? Or are you being moved out of your astrobi, moved onto a ship, and you're in the world where all the dead people are?

Starting point is 01:45:51 You mentioned Jim Sammy Van, who's very high up at the CIA, getting briefed on, you know, basically all sorts of paranormal stuff, you know, tangentially related to UFOs. And they say that the sci stuff, the parapsychology, the idea that mind and matter are not, you know, partitions, they're connected, is the kind of real core truth. All of that is real. I find that really interesting because you're one of the few people who've had direct interactions with this guy named Eric Walker. The direct interactions with anybody who's been rumored to be on this sort of majestic 12 committee,

Starting point is 01:46:25 this committee of elite science, military, you know, people who are like in charge of the UFO matter, they were rumored to, you know, be started under. or Truman and Eisenhower. And Eric Walker is supposed to be a part of this group. He runs all sorts of material science initiatives. He's a president of Penn State. What was that interaction like?

Starting point is 01:46:45 Well, it was wild because he would talk in rhymes and riddles. And at the time, my co-author wanted just sort of edit the stuff. I said, no, yeah, I get it. It's just put it out. It's crazy stuff, the good stuff, whatever. I always thought he was, like, kind of goofy some of the stuff he said. But some of the stuff actually turns out to be right. like the whole thing where he says,

Starting point is 01:47:03 let me ask you a question. And you'd suddenly, that's what happened to me when I had the download. That sort of popped in my head. I'd have forgotten you'd even said it. He said at one point, they were talking about the MJ12 committee. Is it all Americans?

Starting point is 01:47:13 Is it more than 12? All this sort of stuff. And he cuts the guy off. He said, look, me ask you a question. When you know about ESP? And the guy had no answer. He said, look, unless you understand about ESP and how it works,

Starting point is 01:47:24 you will not be taken in by the control group. Very few people understand how it works. And I didn't realize the significance until I suddenly, Ben Rich had said it two years later, exactly the same question when Hartson said, how did they get here? And then Ben Rich turns around and says, let me ask you a question.

Starting point is 01:47:38 What do you know, but ESP? And John Hartson says, it means everything in time and space is connected. So that's how it works. And that's this thing where I look at it, I moved away from the ET, going through material wormholes or something, to this portal type thing.

Starting point is 01:47:53 And the key thing I've got is the tape from Ron Pendelphi. So Ron Pendelphi run the weird desk. Well, I want to stick with Eric Walker real quick. So did you get the vibe or sense that this was a guy who had been privy to? Well, we knew. We knew his background. We knew he'd been on Defense Science Board that he was chairman of the board of the Institute for Defense Analysis, which at the time was the top military think tank.

Starting point is 01:48:15 That's where DARPA came from. That's where the Jasons came from. They came out of Institute. He's the guy that set him up. He worked on a defense policy, even a letter. He says, I worked on defense policy in 1947 with Vannevar Bush. And he admitted he was part of the 19th 1965 Kexburg crash.

Starting point is 01:48:32 He was on the scene. That was later. Because he said some things, I got the interviewer and said, phone him back, ask him if he was like Kexberg. Because he was talking about things that seemed to indicate he was at Kexberg.

Starting point is 01:48:41 And he said, I was there, so what? And when he said control group, what do you think he meant? Well, they were asking him about, by MJ12. Is there all Americans? There's more than 12 people.

Starting point is 01:48:51 And that's when he cut them off. He said, let me ask you a question. And he called, he described them as a group of elites. If you were invited into their group, I would know. And then he would say, things that came up later that we like there was one story that when he said elites what

Starting point is 01:49:05 like elite like elite like i mean mentally physically whatever like they were not ordinary people like almost like uh von newman or people of that status you know they were just really really stand out people that could do calculations in their head or stuff like that's that's my impression that they were they were not just academics so they were trying to get out are the military the academics and stuff and they did ask them all the questions we we put all the transcripts They would ask those questions. Like, was there military people involved? And was there in communication?

Starting point is 01:49:34 He said, we promised not to tell. And now you're hearing this thing with communication. Every time someone gets asked a question about communication, it shuts down. It's like this is one of the pillars of things. But there was another one that came up was I had a friend who was at the Soul Conference two years ago. And they were showing James Fox's movie. And I haven't seen the movie, but I think they talked about the king, the kingman crash. So this girl that I have contact was sitting right near one of the main people, I'll better

Starting point is 01:50:04 ask you who it is, but one of the main people, and as that came up, he said, that's not right, that's not right. That was that crash. That's the one they walked away from. And I said to her, he said that. And she said, that's what he said. And then I remember Walker saying, we're talking about MJ 12. Oh, the dead bodies.

Starting point is 01:50:20 He said, how do you know they're dead? You assume too many things and they're all wrong. How do you know they didn't get up and walk away? And now we've got this story that they got up and walked away and they left the craft, totally intact. And when they looked inside, there was no beings. They just left us a craft, totally intact, flyable, all this sort of stuff. And Walker had said that 30 years ago. How do you know they didn't get up and walk away?

Starting point is 01:50:39 Who's this woman who said that about the king? I don't know. But she had a good source? Do you know she had a good? She was sitting beside him. And when the interview was, when the movie was going on, this guy was saying, that's not right. Who said this? I don't want to say.

Starting point is 01:50:50 It's one of the main people. It's one of the main people at Seoul. And she, I just couldn't believe. he said that. It's like, and I don't know if that's true, but. What do you want to say? Well, she told me the story. I don't know if she wants to expose this guy, what he was saying,

Starting point is 01:51:06 because she just told me what he was saying, because you see me inside him. And I'm thinking, he said that. But it was this idea, we even got the idea that there's one craft where they walked away from it. They just left it and walked away and gifted it to us. That's where Tim Taylor talks about the gifting field, that's their gifting this stuff. And that's what they asked Bob Bigelow, do you think there's other crashes in other countries? And he said, yeah, I think there's,

Starting point is 01:51:26 I think it's been crash in Russia. I think it's been crash in China. I think it's been one in South America. I think they're seeding them. They're seeding them around the world. That's a gifting idea that everybody seems to have adopted this idea. That's the thing that doesn't come with 10,000 late years and then suddenly crash. Well, I also, you know, just sticking with Walker for a second, Walker was chairman of the

Starting point is 01:51:45 Institute for Defense Analysis, the IDA, and Malmgren was a part of the IDA early on as well. And I had the privilege of interviewing Malmgren. Yeah. And there's a lot. There was the, the, the, uh, did the tape with, um, um, uh, Bobby Rienman. When you got asked his questions, that was at the idea. He was, they were, they were in a meeting at the idea as well. And you have all these high, if you look at the board, they had joint chiefs of staff people on

Starting point is 01:52:10 there, the head of the NSA. They get some guy he'd been on for like 30 years. I mean, sat right beside Walker at the, at the board and stuff like that. It was just high, high level people working on, then they were working on the Vietnam War and missile defense. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. but these these were elite people they were grabbing them and uh do you believe malmgren's testimony yeah yeah and is it because of you know his background you know yeah he doesn't see yeah he doesn't

Starting point is 01:52:36 yeah he doesn't seem to have any you know vested interest in in in making it up he may have some stories that he has to change based upon you know covering for some classified thing or whatever but it is extremely interesting story especially i hear he's like the same as bob mcguire yeah when i heard Bob McGuire, said, can I interview you? But he didn't really have any, he was just doing mathematics. He wasn't, you know, a major guy there. But that's the thing is when I hear IDA, I know this is an ordinary guy. Sure.

Starting point is 01:53:04 You know, they don't just haul you in, same as SAIC. Yeah. If you're suddenly on the board there, you know, this guy's got some, some, something behind them that they want and, and he's got lots of connections. Yeah. So it's interesting to watch these guys, but that was my original thing. When the thing was flying away the second night, I said, I'm going to find out what's going on And then I went from the Canadian government to Eric Walker because that led to Eric Walker.

Starting point is 01:53:26 And then Eric Walker was going to put his papers at the Truman Library. So I went to the Truman Library and I go, oh, president's got to know. He's the most powerful guy in the world. He's got to know what's going on. So that's when I couldn't find much of Walker. I was looking for his files because he ran, he was assistant on weapons in 1950. That's when this crash took place. So that's how it started.

Starting point is 01:53:46 So they found out that Steinman said, I was invited to a crash. briefing at Ray Paterson Air Force Base. And I couldn't go. I was busy. He was working on the doeline in Canada or something like that with these engineers. I couldn't go. And then he kept pushing, Simon was pushing. Well, who had? Who had?

Starting point is 01:54:03 And then Stamman, had an interview with him. And he said, well, who, who's there? Who's there? He said, Vannevar Bush and Von Newman and stuff. And he said, well, these guys are all dead. There might be some guy still alive. This is 1983.

Starting point is 01:54:17 And we do have the tape of this conversation. He said, well, yeah, there was this guy. He was real arrogant. He was from Pennsylvania. He had a company like me, and he thought he knew everything. He went to all the meetings. So it was Steinman who did all the work and got all the names

Starting point is 01:54:29 and came up and he phoned him. He says, Dr. Eric Walker. Yeah, that's the guy. That's the guy. And that's when he phones Walker. And he says, I've got this document before me about, or no, I've been received from Dr. Robert Starbacher that you were at a briefing,

Starting point is 01:54:44 dealing with the recovery of a flying saucer and bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in 1950. Did he have the document? Well, he had the, no, he had the MJ12 dogway. But he said, Sarbacher told me this. Yeah. So Walker were known who. Has Walker in the MJ12 docks?

Starting point is 01:55:00 No. Okay. No. So he said, Sarbocker said you had been at a briefing. So he said, he basically just said, Sarbacher said you had been at a briefing. And then what did Eric Walker say? He said, I was there.

Starting point is 01:55:09 So what? And then Simon went crazy. What do you mean? This is an important story. And he said, well, calm down. Come down. Come down. And he just said, yeah, I was there.

Starting point is 01:55:18 And he basically admits. He said, I've known of them for 40 years. which convinced me that this is a real deal, because this is 1980, 70 does the interview. I've known of them, MJ12, for 40 years. Leave it alone. There's nothing you can do about it. And that's when he started this whole thing.

Starting point is 01:55:32 Unless you have the mind of Einstein, you're not going to be... Said you're chasing your tail, yeah. Yeah, and this is this whole idea that I believe now, that that may be what the cover-ups about. Yeah. Is that they have bodies and crafts, but Obama and all these people are telling the truth

Starting point is 01:55:45 that we don't know anything and beyond that. Yeah, this story's real. There are real photos. There are real bodies and crafts. But we don't have the answers. And that's what they're trying to hide is the, the phenomena about the how you propel the craft, how you control it, all this kind of stuff, the mind stuff that they're trying to control. And that's the cover up story that you can't have the president come out and say,

Starting point is 01:56:05 and I think Trump now has made the release. So I think he's in big trouble because what happens is what Eric Walker said to us is, you're just curious, admit it. You're just curious. Why should we change the rules and regulations to satisfy your curiosity? And he was 100% right. 99.9% of people just wanted to hear a good story. They just want to know.

Starting point is 01:56:26 And so what you're going to have is whatever Trump says, like he's supposed to have this speech, July the 8th, the anniversary of Roswell, he's going to make this speech. And he's going to say, yeah, you all exist. But I don't really believe it. A lot of people like this kind of stuff. I met these Navy guys.

Starting point is 01:56:40 They're really nice guys. He's going to make that kind of speech. But I really don't know. Do you think Trump will make a speech? After I heard Laura Bush, I would say, I'm going 50-50. There's going to be a speech. Because he's in a box now. He's in a box.

Starting point is 01:56:52 He's going to, he's, people don't realize, like Semmivan points out, this is a P. This is a presidential emergency action document. This is how it started, which means it's an executive program. The president is running the cover up. So once Trump got caught off guard, he just said, oh, you shouldn't have talked about that as classified. Now suddenly everybody realizes like Trump knows. Trump's now going to face the one million and one questions, which what Walker was trying to do is back you off. We haven't, we're not going to answer one million.

Starting point is 01:57:20 questions because you're just curious. You're going to say, oh, there's bodies and crafts. Then somebody's going to say, okay, where are they from? Okay, now, you know, why are they here? Well, how's what's the chip made of? And then the questions will never end. And the president can't be answering all those questions because they don't know. They may know a little bit about the mebble and a little bit about this. But what you're doing, I said the night that Trump announced, they must have had a party beyond reproach in the Kremlin with a vodka flowing. Like, oh, my God, you're going to release this stuff. And they sit there. It's like a game of card. It's the game of poker.

Starting point is 01:57:51 If they want you, everybody wants to send me to put their cards on the table. Nobody wants to put their cards on the table because you may put your cards on the table. And the Russians have the cards that you're missing. Speaking of past presidents who had some exposure to this stuff, Nixon is a really interesting kind of apocryphal story that was told by Jackie Gleason's ex-wife, Beverly McKittrick. Do you want to tell this story? And I want to also just get your take on whether you think this actually happened because it's one of the most remarkable stories, Joe Rogan.

Starting point is 01:58:20 always brings it up and says, I love this story. It's one of my favorite stories because it ends with Jackie Gleason being so obsessed with UFOs that he ends up with a UFO-shaped house in upstate New York. Yeah. Yeah, I actually arranged that interview with his wife. David Rudiak was the guy that found her. We were looking for her to do the story, and she was selling the silverware. She was online.

Starting point is 01:58:44 She was selling the silverware. So we got a guy out of Ohio who actually died now. He went and did the interview. And she told the interview, she was going to write a book, which really got Jackie upset. And she'd gone to the National Choir. They had done a story. And he was really upset that she had made this public. So she told us the story that, yeah, he, he, he's either fooling around with women or he,

Starting point is 01:59:02 this actually happened because he was pretty shaken up when he came home. He was, he was really rattled when he came home, which is almost the same sort of story as semivine. When you actually get the truth, it just blows them away. You think he'll handle it and he doesn't handle it. So I looked at it because I was at the National Archives where there was, it was the Nixon stuff was. And I tried to track down everything that I could find there.

Starting point is 01:59:22 And what I did find is it would make sense because when Nixon was there, I can't remember how many times he went to the, they called the Southern White House in Key Biscayne, Florida. They would land at Holloman. And then they would take Marine One, the helicopter from Holloman to, so he would land at Holloman like in his presidency 200 times. He would have known the base. Where is Holloman?

Starting point is 01:59:45 It's just near, it's south Florida. It's near Key Biscayne. So they would just fly to Key Biscay and that's where the house was. So, and Nixon, we had heard these stories like they said, oh, he couldn't get away from his security. So I checked it. And sure enough, he got away from his security lots of times. He hated the security.

Starting point is 02:00:00 And what he would do is get the cook to drive out. And he would be in the back seat under a blanket. And they would have to find him on a bar. And the Secret Service would have to find out where he is and go drag him out of the bar and bring him back to the White House and stuff like that. So I knew that part of the story was right, that he could get a car. He could get, because that was the thing. The president can't get a car.

Starting point is 02:00:17 But I could confirm, yeah, the president can get a car. and that he knew Holloman backwards and forwards. And this whole thing with Jackie Gleason, that he was obsessed with, with UFOs and that kind of stuff. And he was able to... I thought it was Homestead Air Force Base. Yeah, Homestead, pardon me.

Starting point is 02:00:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was confused. Because Holloman's in New Mexico. Homestead, yeah. Yeah, I was like, I was updating. Yeah, there's close, but not there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he, and so, yeah, I believe that story is true. And there was a story that he had folders,

Starting point is 02:00:47 he had a folder in his filing account with the alien dead bodies. And they would show these photographs. There was that story about Nixon. Nixon apparently was just fascinated with it. Well, it's interesting. We basically know that Watergate was an inside job. And it was a setup to oust Nixon.

Starting point is 02:01:01 Mark Felt is the deputy director of the FBI. He's deep throat. And he's giving a tip to a guy who just came out of the naval spy ring, the Office of Naval Intelligence, Bob Woodward. And so this whole thing is just this excuse to get rid of Nixon who wanted to, you know, basically do a cut of the, the CIA by a third, you know, big force reduction. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:01:21 And I think he was also interested in a lot of this kind of spookier tech. Yeah. And I think there's a section in Mark Felt's autobiography where he talks about Nixon having seen some pretty specialized covert technology. And so I wonder if that's what he was speaking about high level is, you know, what he saw at Homestead Air Force Base, what he might have shown Gleason there. Who knows? Yeah, it could be.

Starting point is 02:01:43 Well, the thing that was a controversy around Bob was the fact that Bob got a letter from Nixon and said thank you for your cooperation on the project we're working on. And he showed it to Linda Howe and Larry Bryant, I think, were in L.A. had a big house in L.A. in Hollywood and showed him this letter. And then he started to deny he had this letter. And we actually asked him on one interview, D. And he said, well, no, I got a letter. And he sent, president sends out a letter trying to recruit people. If you got anybody and he kept talking about this letter and said, no, no. And so one time Linda said, we were at a conference, Lynn says, come on, we're going for dinner with Bob. I'm going to, I'm going to get him to talk.

Starting point is 02:02:24 So we're going there and she's just giving it to him. Oh, I felt sorry for Bob. And Bob was saying nothing. He had his head down. His wife had his head, her head down. Wasn't coming on anything. She said, come on, Bob. You got to admit it.

Starting point is 02:02:35 You showed me that letter. Nixon was involved. He didn't say anything. And then me and Angela got up. I laughed. He said, I'll, Bob, I'll leave you to live. Linda and I walked off. And Linda didn't talk to me for like a year or two years. She thought it was mad at her. I said, no, I thought it was kind of funny that you were, you were grilling this guy.

Starting point is 02:02:53 And I said, Linda would get it out of you. But Linda confronted him numerous times about this letter that he'd gotten a letter thanking him. The whole thing was approved. The same as the one with UFO cover up live was a couple days before the Nixon, before Reagan left office. And it was sort of like a present to the people as I'm leaving, this documentary. Well, Nixon, I believe, was also head of the 5412 commission under Eisenhower. And that was this continuity of government initiative, but also to do kind of interagency coordination between all these intelligence agencies

Starting point is 02:03:23 and probably do some pretty spooky covert stuff and give the president plausible deniability on it. And then it probably turned into its own runaway sort of thing. Some people think the Majestic 12 have to do with those sorts of programs. They do. Oh, let me tell me to tell you my version of story. So John Alexander was doing an interview.

Starting point is 02:03:39 I've got it in one of my books, I list all the MJ12 stuff. I mean, there's no doubt. There's 20 high level people talk about MJ12. But John talked about it in an interview and he said, yeah, there was, but it didn't have anything to do with UFOs. And said, what would have to do? Had to do his continuity of government. And the guy that showed him, told him that MJ12 was real, said, you look at the people on the list and it should tell you what's going on. So I had that.

Starting point is 02:04:04 And then Paul Hellyer tells the story. So Paul Hellyer tells the story. And I'm sitting right beside. We're in Brantford, Ontario. And it goes around. And he goes, who in the government knows? And he goes, yeah, I don't know. Because Paul Haley really didn't know much.

Starting point is 02:04:18 So he said, ahead of the Privy Council, which is pretty high. It's the guy under the prime minister. Head of the Privy Council. And he's, yeah, I really don't know. And it goes around and comes around the second round of questions. And he says, well, your first question, he says, I do know somebody who knows. And he tells this story. He says, I got a phone call from this Air Force guy.

Starting point is 02:04:35 And he said, the head of emergency management, which is the Canadian version, is about to go off the cliff. He's got Lou Gehrick's disease, LAS. and he's about to go, no, he's dying and he's got something he's got to get off his chest. And he's decided you're the guy he wants to tell. So Paul says, yeah, okay, I phone the guy. And he doesn't phone the guy. And then this guy phones him back.

Starting point is 02:04:53 That's when he says, Paul, the guy's about to go off the cliff. You better talk to him. So he phones the guy up. And the guy says, I just want to get something off my chest before I die. It's real. It's all real. He says, I got taken to the United States. And it would make sense.

Starting point is 02:05:06 If you're emergency management, even if you don't believe in aliens, you've got an alien plant. In case there happens to be an alien invasion. emergency management has got to have some plan they've got a million plans for every lousy you know thing that could go wrong and he said i get taken to washington to langley i signed my life away and then they took me to area 51 and i sat inside a craft that's what it's like holy cow and uh so then the guy ends up dying and then the other piece of the evidence came so i'm doing research on the kexburgh crash because walker claimed he was there so i'm

Starting point is 02:05:38 doing research on that and we're looking at the blue book files. And the Blue Book files talk about the fact that some metal had come down in Michigan. Because this thing came all across Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, down into Pennsylvania, made this turn and crashed in Kexburg. So there was some reports that there were some metal had come down in Michigan. And then there was another one that said it was sent to Project code word greengrass. And I wonder what that is. I look it up. Small Mount Weather, so where they could take the president when there's a nuclear attack. So they were sending this information on the Kexperr crash to Mount Weather, and one of

Starting point is 02:06:20 Greer's witnesses is Stephen Lovekin. He was this lawyer guy and every, I interviewed him, every side he was, you know, maybe making it up and stuff like that. So I talked to him about being inside Mount Weather with Eisenhard. And he said, Eisenhower would doodle, UFO stuff and that sort of stuff. And that Eisenhower was, this is where UFOs were headquartered. This is where all the the UFO stuff goes because it makes sense that if they drop the bombs, they're going to drop the bombs on the White House, all this sort of stuff. You need a place that is contained. Mount Weather has communications to all the military, all the embassies, it's underground, and that's where they, I think they took, one time they took the president there and then he took a vice president there

Starting point is 02:07:04 and this sort of stuff and it's this underground city thing. And one of the Greer's witnesses was saying, and it didn't make any sense until you put these all together. that this is continuity of government, that this is part of the thing. If there's an alien invasion, we have to have this covered. And that the head of FEMA was there, the day after,

Starting point is 02:07:21 the first meeting that Johnson had when he came back to the White House after Kexburg was with the head of FEMA, with the emergency management. So you start looking at this thing, do they see it as a continuity of government thing? Or are they hiding it under a PED? So they're hiding it under something

Starting point is 02:07:35 that doesn't really seem that it applies. Like continuity of government, you say, it's got nothing to do with UFOs. It probably has everything to do with UFOs. like a whole division that's dealing with this. And that's the way I looked at that. There was a lot of stuff that seemed to show that Mount Weather did have this UFO connection.

Starting point is 02:07:49 Where is Mount Weather? It's about 60 miles out of Washington, I think. In Virginia, I think. Okay. But it's, uh, it's, it's this huge. One of these like Cheyenne Mountain Complex type of, you know, contingency plan. Where you can put the new government, the new government gets assigned and they have a president, vice president, if they're all dead, they have people are nominated and, and keep the

Starting point is 02:08:10 government going under this. Do you think that this would be like super deep meta-conspiracy, but do you think that part of the modern narrative around disclosure is like, okay, so you're on the inside, you know, you have biologics, you have crashes, you have material, you have all these things, but you really don't know how a lot of it works and you know the size stuff is real, but maybe there's some vital core group that understands that to a better degree, but it's very disorganized, not clear how you can instrumentalize a lot of it. Maybe there's a point of exhaustion and you go, how can we use this star advantage. And then you start to think, okay, our democracy seems like it's sort of unraveling. And, you know, you can execute some sort of continuity of government contingency plan or something. And, you know, you blame it on alien invasion or thing like that. You know, these are things like, they talk about Project Bluebeam and things like that. And, you know, usually I think it's pretty mushy-brained people who are convinced that everything in this world is, you know, based on one of these sort of crazy, crazy plans.

Starting point is 02:09:09 but do you think that given this insight that there is this continuity or this thread between continuity of government and, you know, people involved in the alien issue, do you think that that could be part of what's going on? You're sort of, in some ways, taking the president a step down. He's seating his authority by saying that there's something else going on. And then if there is some false flag in this, in that area, then all of a sudden it's like, oh, we got the generals need to be in charge or something like that. Yeah. Well, I see that, although the way I saw it, because in a lot of the presidential libraries when I went in there, I'd be finished the UFO stuff in about three hours, because there are no documents in UFO in the libraries. And then I would read all these, what they call oral histories.

Starting point is 02:09:53 So if you were the cook at the White House, he'd say, hey, Jesse, you were the cook at the White house? How did it was the president eat? Did he ever steal food in the middle of the night? All these goofy questions they ask me, you know. And I read all these oral histories of these guys, and I'd see how they made decisions. And I would go, I don't know, I see why he made that decision. He figures a bad guy and then I read his oral history and go, I can't understand why he did that. You see the background. And to me, it was always this thing where it was more like six layers of paperwork that you got to do for everything. It's just bogged down where nothing gets done, where maybe even in the UFO thing, that's what they complain, that, you know, it's compartmentalized

Starting point is 02:10:25 and it's, you know, nothing's getting done and the where a hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing. That was more my thing of the government in terms of, and in this last administration, I can't see because I got the whole briefing thing with Trump, and you'll see, I think I sent you my FOIAs. And one of the ones I asked was for all the... This is a Freedom of Information Act. Yeah, request. So what happens is, five years after the president is out,

Starting point is 02:10:52 you can file for any documents you want. So at one second after midnight on January the 20th, I filed 47 FOIAs all at one time. And I want to be at the front of the line because it's first come, first serve. And there was a big group out of Washington and went after me one time with the Clintons and said, why's all this UFO stuff coming out?

Starting point is 02:11:11 Like, what? We want Hillary Clinton's email or not email, phone records. And this is a waste of money and stuff like this. And I wrote them, I said, first come, first served. That's how FOIA works. Get lost. Go to hell. Stand in line where like the rest of us.

Starting point is 02:11:24 And that's the thing. So I put it in. And one of the requests I made was all documents that on Rance Previs, on UFOs for briefing of the president. And that is because I got called in. I got called in by Larry Fischella, who's not well known in the UFO community, pretty powerful, very rich guy,

Starting point is 02:11:40 sort of works behind the scenes, helps people out and stuff like that. And he's the guy that sort of hinted to me who Jim Semivand was. And then in 2016, I brought Jim Semivand's name out. But anyway, he called me up and he said, after Trump won in 2016, he said,

Starting point is 02:11:57 I need to help her doing a briefing for Rance Previs. And I said, for what? UFOs. He said, where are the crafts and bodies? I said, I have no idea there. ass and bodies. Well, you're doing a Trump briefing for it. And he said, well, they're not going to tell him. I said, well, who's they? And he said, well, he appoints all these people. He appoints all these people. He appoints the NSA and the CIA. And he can, as he's shown, he could fire hundreds of

Starting point is 02:12:21 thousands of people. He doesn't, he can go as deep as he wants and wipe out everybody. And, and I said, well, you know, if they don't tell them, if he hires all these people as his aides and then they don't tell them what's going on, I mean, whose fault is that? He said, yeah, that makes sense. And then at the end of the conversation, But I see, I went for RAN's previous, I came out of hundreds of pages of stuff on briefings for the President of the United States. So it'll be all these people that were gathered and all the information they gave as to what we should tell Donald Trump,

Starting point is 02:12:50 whether they block it or not. Because, you know, they play the games with the FOIs where, you know, this is too broad. Even my UFO, I have to redo it. Your UFO, it's too broad and take too many categories and too expansive and all this sort of stuff. And we're not going to file it unless you, specify exactly which files you want and stuff like that. So they play these little games,

Starting point is 02:13:11 but it's a world where FOIs don't really get anything, you file for them, but behind the scenes, the people that you talk to, you can get a lot of insight as to, I think, what's going on. I think the cover-up to me is clearly the fact that it's, as James Tukaski said, he said it is very complex. It is very, very complex.

Starting point is 02:13:37 And the reference was it is the equivalent of going from rocks and sticks to semiconductors or something like that. That's how far advanced this stuff is. Speaking of how complex and weird this is, there's a NASA mission controller named Tim Taylor who seems to pop up in all of these experiencers' lives. People like Chris Bledsoe, who obviously saw this figure he calls the lady, maybe the goddess Hathor, you know, he says maybe she's also the Virgin Mary, goes by many. names and was given all these sort of prophecies. Obviously, you know, he experiences a lot of UFO

Starting point is 02:14:11 stuff as well. This is the message she told me that she had many names throughout history and that God is God. And we don't know what we think we know. And we need to sit back and reanalyze and you know, be good children and or we're going off the cliff. Whitley Streber, you know, Tim Taylor also is in contact with him. Charles Hall, who is at Area 51, claimed to live with tall white alien beings for years. So I find him fascinating because he's at the intersection of like, this guy has worked on, you know, missions at NASA, Cape Kennedy since the 80s. He worked on the Challenger mission and is this very credentialed guy.

Starting point is 02:14:55 But then he's also popping up in these experiencers' lives and claiming all sorts of really out there things, like saying that there's a hierarchy of being involving you know, angels and, you know, alien. He says he works for an angel. He says that they're alien human hybrids. He's, you know, they exist above, you know, Intel. He says that he is sort of a time traveler and is a part of something called the Adjustment Bureau involved in sort of changing timelines.

Starting point is 02:15:24 And then the crazy thing that no one else will find crazy, but I'm obsessed with Townsend Brown, this mid-century inventor who, you know, really worked on gravity and anti-gravity, but gravity and time are connected. he really was interested in time travel himself, is Tim Taylor and Townsend Brown's daughter were working on a book together. And Tim Taylor also told Chris Bloodso's son that he was part of a secret time travel group

Starting point is 02:15:50 out of Nassau in the Bahamas. And I find that's so fascinating because I know a lot about Townsend Brown and he was obsessed with time travel and he spent a lot of time in Nassau and the Bahamas with some really spooky, interesting people like William Stevenson, for example, who's a Canadian, who was Churchill's super spy, you know, and helped form the CIA.

Starting point is 02:16:10 So what do you know about this Tim Taylor guy? Okay. I met him in 2013. And what happened is he's gone to a conference, and I have a business friend of mine from Winnipeg who basically, like Chris Bledsoe. He doesn't go to the lecture. He just sits out in the hallway and talks to people. So my friend's talking. He meets Tim Taylor.

Starting point is 02:16:32 He's from NASA. and they're going on a dig. And this is the Anderson dig. This is the Anderson case. And so he says, we're going on in this dig. You want to come along with us? So Tim says, yeah, sure. So he did for a couple days they hang out.

Starting point is 02:16:46 And then they go to this dig. And Tim's getting this stuff. And I remember my friend said, Tim said when some of the stuff came out, this is the real deal. And so he had that. And that's all I really knew about him, that they'd been at the dig.

Starting point is 02:16:59 I didn't, I knew he was from NASA, but I didn't really know anything about the guy. So I meet him at a, at this guy I talked to had all these, these tape calls from the, you know, these alien calling on the phone. And so we're in, when this, he built a cabin, we're in the cabin, I'm there. My business friend is there. Chris Bletzel is there. And Tim Taylor comes, only for a day.

Starting point is 02:17:24 I don't think he came in the morning. I think he left in the evening. And according to Chris, he only came to meet Chris to get Chris's information because he was going to go to Chris's place. he wanted to meet Chris. He wasn't interested in the rest of us. And if I'd known who he was, I would have paid a little more attention

Starting point is 02:17:38 and I would have asked a few more questions. I didn't realize he was this like super black ops, whatever, all the tickets and stuff like that. So I had two conversations. One was the download conversation. So I had the download, so we're talking downloads. And he talked to me about the invention.

Starting point is 02:17:53 We gets the invention where he sells this company for whatever 100 million, 88 million on whatever. And he's telling him about the day he got the invention. And Pusalko talks about it in the inner book, about where they go to the Pentagon, and the one-star general says,

Starting point is 02:18:08 who came up for this idea? And they all pointed to him. And he just came in his head in the morning. He said, Grant, the last thing I remember the night before I got that idea in my head, I woke up and there was a hooded figure standing at the end of bed. And I said, really? Could you see its face? He said, I couldn't see his face.

Starting point is 02:18:23 I said, you go to L.A. Because he works with cancer kids. He's all medical stuff. So he's in operating rooms and looking at equipment that they're using for cancer and he goes to LA and to Miami. So I said, you're in LA all the time. Why don't you get a regression with Yvonne Smith and find out who the being was? And he said, yeah, I might do that.

Starting point is 02:18:43 So that was the one conversation had. And the other one we had was this is the one that ties into all of the stuff you're interested in. So he shows me his phone. And that's what Tim Taylor does. He doesn't tell you anything. He just makes, almost like read the breadcrumbs. Here's the breadcrumbs, figure it out.

Starting point is 02:19:00 So he shows me this photograph. and it's a painting and there's these two guys and they're flying through space. Now I've given you the photograph that I took when I went to the building. So they're flying through space and it looks like they got pajamas on. It's really weird.

Starting point is 02:19:11 And there's no name of the artist on it or anything like that. And they're flying through space. One looks so older than the other. And then he says, what do you think of this? You go, I don't know, two guys flying through space.

Starting point is 02:19:22 I don't know. And then he shows me, that's one of these, the moons, it's one of these three paintings where the eclipse happens in the third painting. And he shows me another photograph, all these balls going down a tunnel and they're getting smaller or whatever. And what do you think of this?

Starting point is 02:19:36 Tim, I don't know. I have no idea. I don't know. Why are you showing me these photographs? And then he shows me on the side of the building, these outer space photographs on the other side of the building. And he says, I don't know. And he shows me this car.

Starting point is 02:19:46 And this is where it starts to tie together. He shows me his car on the top of the parcade. And it's like a 56 or 57 chef. And he's got just like a close-up of the back seat. And there's just a postcard there. He says, you know what that is? I said, what? He said, you know what it says?

Starting point is 02:19:59 I said, no, what does it say? And some guy, I wish I could travel through time and space to be with you. And I said, that's what it says? And he says, yeah. And I said, he says, what do you think? I said, I still know. I have no, what you're talking about here. He said, you know what this is?

Starting point is 02:20:13 I said, no, I don't know. He said, see who's, he'll use aircraft building. And they had turned it into a office complex. And I said, I still know what you're talking about. And then he says, and then he says, oh, I don't remember really. He said, this is where the jump room was or this is the, jump, this is the story of the jump room. And I go, jump room. Can I see those photographs again? And you show the first one, these two guys flying through space. And he says, you know what that is?

Starting point is 02:20:39 And I says, no, says, it's just right outside the elevator. I said, really? The story is, the CIA story is they go up to the fifth floor and then on the elevator and then it goes across and then they, they jumped to Mars and Obama's been there. And I always thought it was a garbage story. You know, Andy Bassiago, who I actually had dinner with. And he's a really smart guy. He's really impressive guy when you talk to. And so I phoned up Andy. I said, Andy, are you in the front building or are you in the back building when you're doing this jump thing? He said, I don't remember. He said, I don't remember. And because this is in the front building. And so then he's, he has this, he's showing me this thing. And then I says, well, when I go, I'm going to, I'm going to photograph

Starting point is 02:21:21 this. And it only occurred me two years later. I'm thinking to myself, what was Tim Taylor doing? Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaia and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better.

Starting point is 02:21:48 Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem. there. If this is a stupid story and this guy, because then I had learned who he was, if he's there, maybe the story's true. Like, why would he go to this building to check this story out? So I went there and I photographed it all and he said, watch off for the guard. And there was this guard and it ties into the whole portal thing. So I sort of changed from the So Tim Taylor went to investigate the Andrew Basiago story. Okay. And Basiago is this guy

Starting point is 02:22:23 who's done lectures on the fact that he's time traveled. Yeah. And to very, All over the place. And everybody thought it was a crazy case, but I thought it was a crazy too. And then I met Baccio and he didn't seem like crazy. And it actually impressed me quite a bit. And the other thing was that why would Tim Taylor go there? I mean, why he lives in, I think he lives in Huntsville. And then the other story that with Tim was kind of funny because he, then he left. And they phoned me a couple weeks later. He was in a restaurant in Huntsville. And it was really bad. I really couldn't figure what he was talking about. He was like a lot of noise and stuff. I just remember the one part and it sort of makes everybody feel better because you always feel like Rodney Dangerfield.

Starting point is 02:23:02 I don't get any respect here. And he said, my daughter was talking to me the other day. She says, Dad, you got to quit doing this stuff. This is crazy. Like, what are you doing this crazy stuff for? And he said, I just told her. I said, remember where the Lexus comes from. And then he said, she shut out.

Starting point is 02:23:17 So remember that. Even Tim Taylor, this high level guy has this family trying to stop doing you. And is the implication there that it's because he created. He's embarrassing. He's embarrassing. Well, that for sure. But then he created Vivex biotechnologies based on this download. But she wouldn't know how they, all the pieces of that.

Starting point is 02:23:34 And that's like, you know, I think he sold that for like $88 million or something. So he's implying that like his interest in the phenomena is what made him money there. He's not implying that he makes money by popping up into experiencers life. Like that's his job. Is he? That's more of like a fun thing outside of his NASA credentials. I believe that's a secret. I think he is.

Starting point is 02:23:54 It's not nuts and bolts away people think it is. It's this weird. It's this weird phenomenon. Because that's what the biggest... Do you think his work at the aerospace corporation has anything to do with UFO? Well, I think they're all working on. I mean, he, you know, he'd be working on those specific aspects that lead down that road wherever he is. Because that's another federally funded research and development center, just like IDA that we mentioned prior.

Starting point is 02:24:15 Yeah. So he, that's the thing. I believe, because that's what I came to because I spent a lot of time with Ron Pendolfi. And the main film I got, he always calls me a crook and a thief because I got this video that he put up on the internet. And I figured like, why would I not take this off the internet? And it was posted by his wife. And it's them going through the Panama Canal. And they're sitting there as Ron, Ron's wife, Alia.

Starting point is 02:24:38 Kashmir is sitting on Ron's lap. This guy named John Silas is sitting right beside Pendalfi. And Dan Smith is there and the photographer is there. And the thing's going on. And they're just talking. There's a lot of noise in the cafeteria. So his wife says to him, so footman, because they always use these code names. Like he's the footman.

Starting point is 02:24:56 She's the princess. He takes care of her. She's the princess. Whatever. So he's a footman. What do you say? And he says, quote, people have always wondered what it's like to go into the next world.

Starting point is 02:25:06 There's been a breakthrough. The next time John, and he looks over at this John guy, next time John goes to the desert, a number of us here will go into the next world and come back again. And I went, wow, I can read this film. And Maccabee got a whole of the film. And he went to Ron. He said, did you see Gratz posted this video? And he said, that guy's a crook, that guy's a thief and stuff.

Starting point is 02:25:28 It's like the most important video I ever seen because that was the whole deal. So I was talking to this guy by the name Doug Alt, and he was very good friends with both them. And then all this thing about the portal started, that they had the portal and she'd come out of this portal and stuff like, they kept talking portals. So I said to Doug, I said, I'm getting tired of this. I mean, I've been chasing Pendolfi for 25 years and I still say the biggest question in euphology is not what are UFOs, what the hell's around Pendolfi doing?

Starting point is 02:25:51 And what's he up to? And I said, I'm just tired of this. I'm going to take off. I was interested in the portal store. That's all I'm interested in. Do you think I should take off or should I stay around? And then he paused and he goes, yeah, you should probably stick around. And then about two, three years later, I'm talking to, he's talking to hockey.

Starting point is 02:26:07 So we're talking hockey. And he says, remember that question? You asked me a couple years ago? And I said, yeah, it's real. Who said that? Doug Alt. He said, it's real. Who is Doug Alt?

Starting point is 02:26:17 He's a friend. He's a painter. So Alia is a painter, painter. And he's a realistic, realistic painter. Like, he'll paint. And what's his connection with all? Oh, I just, I introduce all these people. So what I do is I introduce all these people to Ron Kandolphi,

Starting point is 02:26:28 and then they all talk to him. And then I say, what's Ron saying? So I got all these sources around Ron who were telling, I never talked to Ron. I talked to him a few times, but I don't talk to him. I just listen to these people all around him. What's Ron saying? What do you say about this?

Starting point is 02:26:39 What do you say about Todd? Tell me about Ron himself, because he pops up in UFO world a lot. He sort of seems to be debunking people. He calls people loons and crooks. He called, Doug was doing a Broadway play, off-Bloidway play. And there was a song about Ron. It was called the obfuscation that Ron had told him,

Starting point is 02:26:59 I'm here to officiate. Okay. And yet he's like disclosing, but he's not disclosing. And that's this method that they use. That you can't tell her, he's telling the truth or not. It starts in 91. So he's talking to his friend, Dan Smith. And Dan Smith said, he said,

Starting point is 02:27:13 a thousand conversations with Ron about UFOs. And Ron is this very high-level guy. He's been at CI since 84. He's rumored to brief the presidents on Chinese tech and stuff like this. And so he meets Dan Smith. Dan Smith's trying to find out about crop circles. So he gets the phone number.

Starting point is 02:27:35 They give him phone number for run. This guy probably knows. He phones up and he starts talking. And so he meets and he says, I'm going to Los Alamos this week. I'm talking to live alien. So Dan Smith, he's a good multimillionaire. He says, okay, fine.

Starting point is 02:27:52 line, and he posts it. He says, Ron Pendolfi from the CIA, he's going to talk to aliens at Los Alamos. So Ron contacts me, says, the next time you post, do not put my name and CIA in the same sentence. He didn't seem concerned about the live alien thing. So, and Dan Smith phones Los Almos, and he says, I want, I want to know about Ron Pendolfi. Is he coming there? And he said, hang on. And who comes on the line with John Alexander? And he said, yeah, he's coming here. And so that's how it started with this thing going to the live alien. So he told him. So he talked. Tell us all these stories. And then Ron gets mad at me.

Starting point is 02:28:24 He says, Dan Smith's crazy, he's psychotic. And you just repeat all the stuff he says. It's not true, but he's feeding him stuff. He's feeding him all these things about the portal and stuff like that. And actuators with this John Sillison guy, there's these actuators that they pull out of the portals. And they've actually got this technology.

Starting point is 02:28:40 And at one point, they were actually going to tell me. I was talking to one of Ron's assistants. Because I work on portals as well at Mount Shasta. I've got these four main cases where I talk to people who were in the portal. They went into the portal. And is the portal like you go into another, time you go into another. They can go right.

Starting point is 02:28:54 They can step from here onto another planet. You just take one step and you're on another planet. Another planet. Planet. Or you can go into the portal in Mount Shasta where the alien comes. The alien lawyers, their theories, the alien lowers the vibration. People do oming, meditating, all the sort of they raise their vibration. And then this being comes.

Starting point is 02:29:11 So in 2014, the open one. 2015, I interviewed almost everybody that was in the portal. What did you just see? He was this 10 foot tall guy. And he had boots on, he had this thing on his chest and these sparks are coming out of this thing. And what you see? This 10 foot tall guy and these two other beings and these people hiding behind trees

Starting point is 02:29:28 and they looked like little iPads. And they believe they were the engineers that were keeping the... You think Pandolfi is like in charge of these sort of... He's looking into these portals. Yeah, that he's the UFO technology, that he's protecting it, but he's also making these sort of indirect disclosures about this whole thing. And in case anybody thinks we're sort of crazy here, I believe he also was in charge of the Jasons, right?

Starting point is 02:29:54 He provided material for the Jason. So the Jasons came out of IDA. There's one, I think it was Miter. I think his wife used to work for the Miter Corporation or whatever. Okay. There's connections there, but there's a document that's found about gravitational waves where he was finding the speakers. It shows Ron Vendelphi's providing the briefers.

Starting point is 02:30:12 Why do you think he's so interested in gravitational waves? Well, he's interested in everything. He's interested in everything. They're in the big ecologists and stuff like that. that and he's so he was not on the jasons or no no because somebody was said somebody said he set the agenda for the jason well he was providing the speakers or he was providing i think it was the speakers or just that one time the one time it was caught on paper so you never almost catch him on paper like you can do FOIAs on him he won't show up on FOIs he means he disappears into the one of these guys where

Starting point is 02:30:42 he's totally protected as to who he is what he does we were trying to find out i couldn't even find out what agency work for it was like is he working for CIA still is he working for because he apparently worked for Director of National Intelligence. And then he was at the White House, and then Dan Smith says he's taking care of hamsters. They do this bizarre stuff. Do you think there are secret societies that exist? You know, you have the JFK speech, but aware of the secret societies. And we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings. They exist at a level kind of more fundamental than intelligence agencies and these groups have to do with the UFO secrets at all? Well, they would have all sorts.

Starting point is 02:31:25 I would say the secret societies are the guys with the money. So one of the big things in, in Washington was the Cosmos Club, that the people who went to the Cosmos Club were the insiders, that they would have these meetings. And I think it's all like you do business. So whatever level you're talking to people at business, you're in making a deal. And if you're talking to a high level guy and you're a high level guy, they're talking about they may have a UFO thing going, they may have something else going. And it's all about, you know, trying to do whatever they're doing and make money and but i think it's mostly got to do with money and and and power and and who you know it's that's where the aviary came from these guys that you have all these people

Starting point is 02:31:58 trying to figure out stuff and then these high level guys who had some in engagement with UFOs suddenly find out what's going on and and they realize these other people around and they start talking to you have any concrete examples of the connection between the cosmos club and UFOs walker was walker was one of the one of the people that's one of the things we discovered and then i would look at bios of all these high level guys It would be Cosmoscope. Interesting. Is that still around?

Starting point is 02:32:23 Yep. I think so. Yeah. So that's one of the things. And it may not have anything to do it, but it just popped up all the time. And what about like families like, you know, the Rockefellers, like Lawrence Rockefeller was obsessed with UFOs. It tried to get Hillary Clinton into UFO disclosure, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 02:32:40 And I tried to get people till his files are still there. And I think it's at Princeton, but I'm not 100% sure. But his files are there. And there's got to be a gold mine. even though his family may have destroyed some of the stuff because they had no use for him being in this. He was embarrassing to the family and stuff like that. And so he had an interesting story I could tell about there. The one big thing I first got was I filed.

Starting point is 02:33:05 Maccabee had filed. There was a friend of Ron Pendolphi filed first. Then Maccabee filed. First guy got 200 pages. Maccabee got 500 pages. So I filed for all the, what's called the Rockefeller initiative now. Where Rockefeller goes, he's talking Bud Hopkins. told me a story. He's, they're, Jacobs and him are at, uh, him and Mac are at, uh, Rockefeller's house.

Starting point is 02:33:25 And Rockefeller's like a butler and he's taking, bringing on breakfast and stuff like that. And they thought, it's kind of weird. It's billionaires, you know, feeding us breakfast and stuff. And he, he said, I'm going to, I'm going to get disclosure. And he said, what do you mean? I'm going to the president. I'm going to tell him disclose. And they said, we, he's not going to do it. I'm going to the president and he's going to disclose. And they said, oh, Mr. Rockefeller, I don't think that's how it works. I don't care. I'm going to get disclosure. So they had this, they knew he was coming. And that's when Pendolfi gets involved. So they have to get a briefing because Gibbons,

Starting point is 02:33:55 they realize there's going to be this big meeting on UFOs, and they've got to find what's the government position, what do we say, all this or stuff. So Gibbons calls in Mac, he calls in Ron Pendolfi to do the briefing. And this has been established, that Ron was called to do the briefing. This is this idea that he'll brief executive people, the president, if something comes up,

Starting point is 02:34:12 as to what the actual fact is. So Ron, there's even an email I have where Ron says, these senators and congressmen, they're always asking these questions, and they don't realize that it's not the material, it's the access to the material. And you can get in a lot of trouble. And I tell the senators that, and they just let me carry the keys. So I call him the key, the guy with the keys. He has the keys to all the compartments. He knows exactly what's classified, what's not classified.

Starting point is 02:34:38 So you think Ron Panned off exists at the top of the UFO pyramid from a government perspective? Absolutely. And didn't he do some metallurgy related to me? That's another story. The story was that his father gave him a piece, that they were involved with the Glomar Explorer. Ah. And so Ron had this piece,

Starting point is 02:34:55 and he did a paper when he was 16 years old. And it was one of the reasons why he got to recruit. He did this metallurgist. Yeah, I think apparently he's not a physicist, he's a chemist. And he did this metallurgic analysis at 16 years old. A UFO piece? Well, it's a piece of something.

Starting point is 02:35:09 Ron will never tell you a straight story. Okay. I mean, he did. And for context, Glomar Explorer was this huge air. aircraft, uh, subsea explorer.

Starting point is 02:35:19 Yeah. That, uh, a lot of people think maybe retrieved, you know, exotic technology at the seafloor. And then there's a story that his father had given him a piece. And,

Starting point is 02:35:27 and then he was taken away. I don't know. There's, the stories around around never really, but it definitely, there was a piece. He did analysis, very young age.

Starting point is 02:35:36 And that had something to do with how he got involved with UFOs and stuff like that. And then, then you get, like, there's always these connections like, for example, Kit Green. Kid Green was involved in Glover Explorer.

Starting point is 02:35:45 So it was, Eric Walker. Really? And so when Kit Green saw Eric Walker's bio, he says to Jack Valley, have you seen this guy's bio? This guy is unbelievable. And they were looking at our book

Starting point is 02:36:00 of what Walker had said. And this guy's claiming this and that. And he said, I'm going to get a clearance. I'm going to go talk to him. Because I talked to Bill Moore. And Bill Moore says, I don't believe this Walker guy's as high as you say he is, but I got a friend.

Starting point is 02:36:11 His name is BJ. He's going to go and talk to him. And BJ is the Blue Jay. The Kate Grimes is the Blue Jay. So Kit Green gets his clearance and he goes to Walker at Penn State. And according to Jacques Valet, the way the stories, they're sitting there and they talk about Gloramar Explorer, CIA days, Glomar Explorer and they both worked on it and stuff like that. And everything was going good.

Starting point is 02:36:29 And then Kit brings up UFOs. You made these statements about crash saucers and stuff like that. And he said Walker just blew up. And he said yelling at him, you're not the president. I don't have to tell you anything. I don't tell you anything. You get a letter from the president. I'll check it to make sure it's from the president.

Starting point is 02:36:45 And then I'll talk to you with you and you get out of my. And he's talking to a bunch of books on the corner to give the indication that he'd gone crazy and that the room was tapped. And there was these, the room was tapped and they were listening in the books and get out of my office. And he kicked Kate Green out of the office. Wow. And so this is a story that Kit Green's told and Jack Valet tells it in his diary. And Kit Green has held a long CIA clearance. And he said, I'll get the clearance.

Starting point is 02:37:07 He got the clearance necessary to talk to him. And there was the one condition. And this comes back to the thing about the president. And you're not the president. I don't have to tell you anything. And Jacques Valet writes about this in forbidden science, his diaries? Yeah. That's fascinating.

Starting point is 02:37:19 Well, what's interesting to me is you're saying that Ron Pandolfi is head of the CIA Weird Desk, and he sits at the top of the pyramid, and he kind of knows where all the compartments are. But then you're simultaneously saying his predecessor, Kit Green, who also ran the CIA Weird desk, didn't really have an understanding of the program. Well, the story I heard was that Kit Green basically had been read in on most of it, but he couldn't get rid in on the autopsy thing. And that he was fighting and they had given him an offer to do it and then they would pull it back

Starting point is 02:37:51 and all this guy. That's the story I was hearing back 20 years ago. They couldn't get right into that program that he knew sort of the other stuff. And but he knows a lot. I think he was one of the people that briefed a semi-van because he's the guy that told semi-van about Tom DeLong. He said this guy's music guy and he's doing this sort of stuff. And then they went to Tom DeLong.

Starting point is 02:38:10 It was Semmivan and Kate Green. they got Tom DeLong in a hotel room. And they said, like, where'd you get this stuff from? Because they realized this is, some of this stuff was, was borderline classified material. It was in Tom's long's book. And apparently for two days they talked to Tom DeLong. And then they realized, oh, he's nothing.

Starting point is 02:38:27 And they realized the program. They say, they realize there's nothing classified. And so they dropped it. But then he becomes co-owner or whatever of To the Stars with Semivand and Tom DeLong, which indicates that they go along at the point. program. They realize he knows he's he knows all the guys he knows McCaslin he knows rice and stuff and what are you doing with this guy and that's what happened with John Podesta. So when when Podesta, when Tom DeLong goes to Bedesta, Podesta says well call me back in a couple of months. I'm kind of busy right now and

Starting point is 02:38:58 what Pedesta is doing is he's got to run the thing. Who's talking to this who's talking to this guy? What are we doing? Are we dropping something on this guy and stuff like that? And then they give him the clearance. So there's Podesta phones, phones Tom DeLong and says, I'm ready. This is important. Fly to Washington. And then he flies. So suddenly John Podesta, somebody's told him, you can work with this guy. This is what you can tell him. And they have this meeting where all these guys are at this meeting in 2016 in January. And you have the weird story where John Podesta, he always told the story when he was in Clinton White House, his joke about he would

Starting point is 02:39:32 always leave. He's worked day and night at the White House. But when his ex-files, he went home. Thursday and I went home to watch the X-Files. And then in the meeting, I make the joke where one of the people in there is Robert Weiss in the meeting. So Robert Weiss, after they have this meeting with John Podesta, about disclosure or whatever they're doing, because Hillary was going to disclose. That's clear. And a couple days after, Robert Weiss writes a letter and says, is, we got any information, any follow up information? Because I guess we're going to follow up on this kind of stuff. And now you've got the Area 51 guy phoning to find out what's, what they know about Area 51. And before it was, he's asking John Podesta what's going.

Starting point is 02:40:11 51 and John Pedesta before was asking what's he wanted to go to area 51 and find out what's going on and talk to them. So you got this whole thing where Hillary was going to disclose and then what happened was the leak of the emails, the Podesta emails and it all the three, I call them the three kings, Badaesta, McKay and Robert Weiss. They get exposed and suddenly boom, they blown their cover and they've never appeared since. They've just disappeared into nowhere. And then you have to bring in the B team. So then he brings in, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Lou Alizando and that. I call them the B team. They bring them in.

Starting point is 02:40:45 But what happened, I even talked to Chris. So when Hillary lost the election, because they talked about the seven-year plan, the same as Schumer. They talked about the seven-year plan with the nine people under the president, and we've got subpoena power, and we can force all the material back from the contractors and stuff. That was all

Starting point is 02:41:01 before 2016, Hillary was going to do it. And Hillary, according to the Pettesta notes, she had this all planned that they were going to promote the stuff. And John Pettesta was actually saying, Ask her about the aliens. One of the reporters, come on, ask her about the aliens. He wanted this story out because they wanted Hillary to talk about. She was going to do the disclosure thing.

Starting point is 02:41:19 And she was going to go on Kimmel in November of 2015. And she went on there and he didn't ask her the UFO question. And then she wanted the pedestus thing. She was furious. She had practiced this five minutes spiel. She had it all down what she was going to say. No way. Didn't ask her the question.

Starting point is 02:41:34 How do you know that? So Kimmel had it. It's in the, it's in the Pesta emails. Holy shit. And then she goes in April. Wow. And then he asked her the question. And that's when she says, I'm going to get to the bottom of this.

Starting point is 02:41:45 And he said, well, your husband tried to get to the bottom of it. He couldn't get anywhere. Well, I'm going to do it again, she said. Oh. I'm going to do it again. This is all planned that she was going to do disclosure. So when she didn't get it, Chris Melissa was feeding me all the material about what was going on. They were going to drop this thing with Hillary Clinton.

Starting point is 02:42:05 They had all planned out and all this stuff was going to be disclosure. And then Hillary lost the election. So I phoned up Chris. The same day, I said, Chris, so what's going on? Is it dead? Is it? No, he said, green light. Still going. It's even bigger than before. And I go, okay.

Starting point is 02:42:17 And then it took them nine, ten months for Tom DeLong to get the next team of people. And then they made that October 11th appearance on Two the Stars. And that's when Two the Stars happened. Now, if there's a subject that could potentially change the world, how would one approach it? Especially if the subject contained Earth-changing technology. It was going to happen before. It was all planned absolutely before. You even have the emails going to the Rockefeller thing.

Starting point is 02:42:45 Hillary was really into this thing. There was two documents in the Rockefeller files, and I couldn't figure out what they were. One said all the stuff going from Rockefeller to the science advisor, from science advisor to the Rockefeller is going through the mailbox of Hillary Clinton. And going, why would Hillary Clinton be going through her office? And then the other one, I can't remember the second, but this one I figured out, what it was,

Starting point is 02:43:10 was the president, as he told Rockefeller at the ranch, he told Rockefeller, it's like the story of the tarb baby. You heard the Arkansas Tower Baby story? That's what it's like, you can't touch it. If you touch it, you get stuck to it. And then you try to fight and you get stuck again. And you kick him in the foot and you get stuck. And he told Rockefeller, I can't touch it.

Starting point is 02:43:30 It's like the Rockefeller or Tarbaby. And so who said this? Clinton to Rockefeller at the ranch. And so he, he. Hillary or Bill? Bill. Okay. Because Hillary didn't come down.

Starting point is 02:43:41 They did the briefing. Rockefeller wanted to get him away from the CIA at the ranch. Then he gave the briefing and Hillary, Hillary watched the briefing and it was Bill's birthday. Bill didn't come down to the briefing. He didn't because the president can't be involved. He can't touch the subject because then he gets stuck. And that's the problem I say Trump has right now.

Starting point is 02:44:00 He's touched the tar baby. And now he's stuck to the tar baby and he's going to ask a million and one questions about what's going on, all the conspiracy theories, all this sort of. It's just going to be inundated. It's going to be, stop, it's like the Epstein, stop, stop, stop. Is there anything else we can talk about here except UFOs? He's going to get frustrated with all the questions he's got. But so the reason they put it through her is that she knew what was going on between Rockefeller and the science advisor.

Starting point is 02:44:24 And she'd go to Bill in the evening and say, this is what's going on. And then he'd tell her what to say. She wasn't part of the government. So she could do this kind of stuff. They didn't want any paper trail leading to the president. And that's what I think goes on is that the president. are told this plausible liability thing. If you really need something,

Starting point is 02:44:43 we'll read you in on it or the basic policy. Because according to Semiband, the basic policy is that it's a program and people say, well, security clearances. Well, the president controls all security clearances. He's all security clearances goes through the executive offices of the President of the United States. People don't realize he's in control of security clearance.

Starting point is 02:45:00 He doesn't have a security clearance. He can fire anybody, pull your security clearance. He pulled, you know, Biden's security clearance. Well, that's why when you hear stuff like, I want to get to the bottom of it Trump, you should expect him to get to the bottom of it because all this stuff rolls up, you know, eventually to the executive branch. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:45:16 And I think they just tell them better to stay clear. Don't touch it. And if you need something, we'll tell you what's going on. It's being controlled by these people. Yeah. Well, maybe there's a tide shift now because Trump is so volatile and hard to predict. Yeah, well, I think he got caught off guard. I don't think he even realized because that's what happened.

Starting point is 02:45:33 The Fox News guy asked him, well, you know, Obama said this or whatever. Well, then he doubled down. And then he said, oh, it's classified material. And then the reporter said, so you're saying aliens are real? And they went, oh, no, no, no. And then he started to back off. And he realized he'd said this, that it was classified. And so I say that it wasn't Obama that broke the classification because he didn't say this is classified material.

Starting point is 02:45:55 But Obama said, or Trump said, that's, aliens, that's classified, which means you're exposing a classified program. If there's somebody asked you about a classified program, you're supposed to say, I can either confirm or deny or say, no, you lie. you lie, you do not expose because even the existence of the program is exposing the program. If somebody realizes there is actually a program, then everybody knows where to go and that's what happened to Jimmy Carter. When he was trying to get reelected, he mentioned the stealth. And that's one of the reasons why he was, it was just absolutely ridiculed because they had to move all the parts.

Starting point is 02:46:25 They had open satellites were suddenly going over Burbank. They knew where the stealth was being built and stuff like that. And they were just furious at him because he'd made this reference to the stealth. Grant, you are clearly a wealth of anecdotes. I'm just so impressed in your knowledge over the last, you know, three, four decades on this topic. It's just really, really impressive. I want to, given how much you know, get to some discrete truths, because I think in UFO world, often you end up in sort of everything is everything land, you know, and I think it's important

Starting point is 02:46:58 to kind of concretize things. So do you believe we have crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs? Yes. Do you believe this sort of time travel portal thing as well? There are programs where people are going into jump rooms and going across time and space through. I would say nature or reality, if you go down, there's no time, there's no space.

Starting point is 02:47:23 You get into that kind of stuff. That's where Jim Semiband said it's indigestible. But has this been turned into technology that is repeatedly usable in a predictable way? So I want to go to... Metal, well, some, like metal, knit and all, I think was something developed from the Roswell crash.

Starting point is 02:47:38 But I'm talking about the portal stuff. So like, yeah, well, this is the word, this tape from Ron, because he didn't know it was going to be public. He had no idea that,

Starting point is 02:47:46 that I would grab this off the internet and grab it. And he's definitely talking about portals. And when I talk to these people in the portals, that's definitely true. And then I hear the story. But you think they can walk into a room

Starting point is 02:47:56 and we can predictably, because Andrew Basiago, let's just get clear. He literally says, I went back to the Gettysburg address. So like, do you think that there's a way to predictably sense,

Starting point is 02:48:07 somebody to a specific moment in time, and the government knows that? I think there's a better chance of that than we have some sort of ships that are flying to other planets. The nuts and bolts thing, I think is going to fall apart. It's more... So you think we don't, we haven't made a lot of progress on the crafts we do have? If we got any technology, it's going to be portal, time travel technology. Okay. And then we don't, we haven't made a lot of progress on the crafts we have. Well, that's according to Sammy Van, James Lackaski. They may be lying. They may be not read in.

Starting point is 02:48:39 But I look at, my father's, I tell the story, my father was World War II. He was Air Force, World War II. So he brought this bomb home from World War II, you know, and it was deactivated and whatever. And my son's got it now. And I watched the Ukrainians drop bombs on the Russians.

Starting point is 02:48:55 And it's the same bomb. It's swells now. And I'm going like, where's the high tech? I mean, you think we'd have this high tech. Why do you lose the Afghan war to a bunch of guys driving around on camels? I mean, the Somali had the fourth week army in the world and the Americans had to pull out of there and you start wondering because all the

Starting point is 02:49:11 technology the the the the f 47 coming now it's still playing with wings and it's going faster and it's got more jamming technology and all that kind of stuff I just don't see the technology but when comes to the the the the time stuff and the the the mine stuff I'm sure they've got stuff I even show them video one time about this is white world technology you can look it up is you google rat rain f-22 and it's from the University of Southern California, Southern Florida, and it's a guy doing, he takes 20,000 neurons of a rat brain, puts them in a little petri dish, wires them into an F-22 simulator, and they start sending signals back and forth, and the first day, there's neurons are all there, second day, they're

Starting point is 02:49:51 starting to form, third day, it's a brain, they're all talking to each other and stuff like that, and they wire it, and they've got the F-22 flying with the 20,000 rat brain neurons, and then they change the wind, and they got everything, you can cross winds and thunderstorms and stuff, and the thing keeps flying it. That's 21-year-old technology. White World technology. Can you imagine what they've got in this whole bio thing? Because I wrote the whole book on UFO Skypots

Starting point is 02:50:16 where I write 36 people that mysteriously came to me and all said, I've flown the craft. Really? Well, yeah. And the first woman that told me this. You've had 36 people say they've flown the craft? And I've got way more than that now, yeah. Can I interview any of them?

Starting point is 02:50:30 Sure. Where are these people? My assistance is one. Whitney Streber is one. Oh, flown inside the craft. Flewn the craft. I thought you, but like... Fly the craft.

Starting point is 02:50:40 Like, fly it with your mind. Sure, but not like walked inside a hangar in a facility like Bob Lazard did, get in and then fly it. Like... Not in a facility. They, like, I got to... Because I would just, I would make a distinction between somebody who gets abducted or taken by the... I don't think the government has much, they can fly. I don't think that's the whole thing.

Starting point is 02:51:01 That's why... But what happened when the Bob Lazar case, where he walks underneath the craft? Well, that's that's one that I really kind of explain, whether that's electrostatic or they got some other way or magic trick or something that they wanted them to see this and they've got some other way. So none of your 36 witnesses have like walked into a, you know, top secret facility or whatever. No, they all find themselves on a craft or their, their experiencers. Yeah. I've got a 747 United Airlines pilot. I got a retired US Air Force Colonel, Willie, my assistant, Whitley Streber. Wow. A lot of people. And the first woman that came to me... I'd love to talk to the current. Yeah, he was in the California,

Starting point is 02:51:44 Orange County Group, MeeFund Group. Okay. He came after. They said, we were after the group and they said, hey, David, you missed Grant's like she. We were talking about firecraft, tell me your story. And I said, you flew the craft?

Starting point is 02:51:56 And he said, well, it seemed like a dream. I said, everything's just a dream. Okay. And then he said, well, yeah, I said, and then he said, tell what you do, David. And so what do you do? I'm a pilot. I said, oh, my son's a pilot. My father's is a pilot. What do you fly? He said, uh, F-16s. I said, F-16s. He said, yeah, I'm a retired US Air Force Colonel out of Iraq.

Starting point is 02:52:15 He said, sit down and tell me his story. And he just tells the story. I'm on a crack. He says, I suddenly find myself on a craft. This is where you start getting into this weird stuff that I'm researching that everybody lets slip by. I'm standing on a craft. I'm standing on a craft. Just suddenly I'm on a craft. And somebody's behind me and they're telling me what to do. And that becomes important. So he says, somebody's standing behind behind me and telling me what to do. And they say, go ahead and do it. And he says, I don't know what to do. And he said, you know what to do. Just do it. And he sees this panel. He goes to put his hands on the panel. He said,

Starting point is 02:52:46 suddenly he says, he's flying at F-16. And he said, it was so weird. And he's flying it. And he's flying it. And he's flying it a little bit because he's ready for it to stall. He takes his hand off. Nothing happens. He's got his hand so he can put it back down again. Takes it off. He takes the other hand off. And he's flying it. And it's like, holy cow. And then the important thing was these people behind him. So then I started, later on Jim Semiband tells the story. So he's telling the story. He's got the beings in the room.

Starting point is 02:53:09 And he doesn't want to talk about it. He said, no, I don't want to talk about it. There are people investigating it. No, I never want to talk about it. And anyway, so then the interviewer, James Ian Dolly says, so, was there any telepity involved? And they said, that was the strangest part. He said, I was standing there with my wife, and these beings were there.

Starting point is 02:53:28 And there was somebody behind me, I couldn't see whether it was an alien or gray or gray, a tall white, I don't know what it was, but it had this guardian type thing about it. And I'm going, guardian type thing? If you study Michael Newton, you know, the guard, they go, before the panel, after you die, you go in front of the panel, and your spirit guy stands behind you on the left side. And this is a common story. The spirit guy signs on the left side. So I said to James, I said, phone back, ask him what side it was on. And then I talked to Whitley. I said, hey, Whitley, I got this weird thing with these people flying the craft that there's always somebody

Starting point is 02:53:57 behind them who's telling them what to do. I said, you're in the craft? He said, you ever have anybody telling you what to do. He said, all the time. He said, I told you. When I was going to fly the craft, he said, I was going to steal it. I said, I think I'd like to steal this thing. And somebody started laughing behind him. And he said, he got this confirmation of this weird, these weird things about somebody standing behind them, what's really going on here. And, but a lot of these people, and the whole thing is, you put your hand on something like Chris Bessel. So Chris Bessel flew the craft. Then when I heard you flown the craft, I said, you flew, it was just synchronicity of all these people coming me at the same time. I said, Chris, you flew the

Starting point is 02:54:32 craft? He said, yeah. He said, stop right there. I'm going to phone you on Skype. I want you to start from the beginning. I want you to go to the end for five minutes. I said, okay, what happened? Went to the craft, went on the, on the, went inside, and he said there was a, there was a, the beings were there. He draws actually where the beings were, where he was, and there was this pedestal. And the weird thing was, I've got 36 people, nobody touched the same thing. Everybody, it's a different story. So his, there was this pedestal standing in the middle and had this sort of like a beehive on the top. And it was black. It was like black plastic. and then he said he put his hand on,

Starting point is 02:55:03 they told him put his hand on this black thing, and he took his hand off and it looked like, like a CD wrong, you know, with the colors going through it. And he could see where his handprint was. And then he said, they had these hexagons in the wall, and these hexagons were spinning. And he said, they started to spin. They got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, bigger and bigger,

Starting point is 02:55:19 bigger and bigger and he said, suddenly the window opened and there was a Cape Fear River. And he said, I sat cross-lakeet on the floor, looking out the window, flying down the Cape Fear River, where I was abducted going, yeah, and down the river. And so he's flown the crafts.

Starting point is 02:55:33 He gets these weird stories and people where they would say this thing where this indigestible thing where what's really going on. So two of them. One is this Ron Johnson guy. They asked Ron Johnson. They say, Ron, where would you like to go? Said, I'd like to see the Milky Way from a distance. And this is important. They say, Ron, it is within you.

Starting point is 02:55:50 Go within yourself. When you can imagine it, then we'll go there. I've got a couple of witnesses. Say the same, exactly the same thing. So he imagines this thing. And he said, boom. He said, one second. intense G-force and almost like papers, like going through a book, going through dimensions or

Starting point is 02:56:05 whatever is going on. And he said, it was just intense for one second. And you look out the window and there was milk away off in the distance. And other people describe instantly going from one place to another. The same thing where you're told what to think. And that's the question. You start wondering what's really going on. Like remote viewing. What's going on with the remote viewing? If you give the guy a target 453709 and you say, okay, and the guy says, okay, I'm at the target. He doesn't say, hang on, I'm flying there. I'll be there in five minutes. He's instantly at the target and that's what the Sufi expression that Greer always uses you see yourself as a puniform when within you is enfolded the entire universe and that's this question what's really going on

Starting point is 02:56:40 about the computerized world simulation is there actually a world that's all just you know it's all just waves there's no physical world there's no time and space that fields are primary matter a second even Google search it fields are primary matter a second and you start re-looking at reality, and I think that's what the phenomenon is doing. I call it the theory of wow, or the Jesus circus. So all they're doing is they're doing these weird, weird things that make you go, what the heck is going on? That crop circle, it's hoaxed, but how did they do it? And you start wondering, and when you got on curiosity, or as Einstein said, mystery is at the bottom of all scientific creation. It's mystery. It's get you on curiosity,

Starting point is 02:57:23 but you wonder, what's going on? If you got it all figured out, you're not going to do any investigation, but everybody in the UFO field is doing the same thing. They're trying to figure out what's over there, and that's what they're trying to get you to do, is they're trying to get you to expand your mind, just say, if this paranormal stuff is happening, something we got is wrong. And that's when I talk about skepticism.

Starting point is 02:57:40 If you look at Descartes, everybody brings up DeCart and skepticism. I say skepticism to me is a left brain interpreter. It's that little voice in your head that just makes up garbage all the time. It's a balloon. Don't worry about it. And then it won't back off. And Descartes said, when he talks about skepticism,

Starting point is 02:57:54 he says, I may have to throw out everything, I've ever learned. And that's what it's about. That's where Mark Twain, famous expression, it's not what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know that just ain't so. And that's what's happening. We're realizing the world is not the way we think. And that's what the phenomenon is trying to do. And that was the answer to my question. When it was flying away that second night ago, what's it doing? It's just doing these weird things. People have a UFO saying. I say, what was it doing? I don't know. I didn't do anything? I said, do you think it knew you saw it? Yeah, I think so. Well, I think you're right.

Starting point is 02:58:27 I do think the phenomena engages in sort of systematic and random brain scrambling that sort of raises our consciousness in a way that, you know, it's always this game of whack-a-mole. It's always going to be high strangeness and not match some prior thing. And I think you are doing this right now in this interview. So I'm so impressed by you. I think you might be an alien grant. This is really fun. And you are just filled with so many anecdotes and so much knowledge. I love that you've explored so many things around government programs, nuts and bolts,

Starting point is 02:59:04 and you're probably the tip of the spear of a lot of that stuff. I mean, you literally were responsible for getting out the Wilson Davis memo, and then you come to this sort of conclusion that we are, you know, that's more metaphysical, that we are in this sort of, you know, physical realm, but there are these sort of, you know, events that occur at the margins with this sort of more spiritual realm in some sort of, I don't know, this sort of simulation theory or something. And Jacques valet obviously talks about a control system.

Starting point is 02:59:30 I used to think he was nuts. I used to think he was totally nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he made that famous statement. When I see the, I'm in a movie theater and I see the screen, I look at that little hole in the wall and I say, boy, I'd like to get the key and go into that room and see what's going on where that lights coming out of the, that's the whole thing of the cave, you know, we've seen the images.

Starting point is 02:59:47 And that's where I think they're trying to force us. They're trying to force us to question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What we understand. Or, you know, reality itself is like a mirror. I'm getting this from, taking this from trans surfing reality, which is one of my favorite books by a guy named Vadim Zeland, who's this reclusive Russian physicist, quantum physicist, who it might be a conglomerate of certain people or, yeah, it might be a patchwork of other

Starting point is 03:00:13 people, but, you know, sort of, I don't know, fell off the map. And he says it's like, you know, you're standing in front of a mirror, on the mirror, you see this sort of, you know, it's not a perfect, you know, there's somewhat. of a lag, obviously the photons have to bounce back and forth between your eyes, but you're seeing this sort of expression of kind of what's in your mind, like projection of your subconscious. Oh, yeah, exactly. I think in reality, obviously you're seeing projection of your subconscious married to something that is a little more objective, kind of like a neutral monist sort of viewpoint.

Starting point is 03:00:47 But then you take a step back outside of the mirror and you look around, and that's reality itself. So it's like you have a headset on at all times or something. Yeah, and you see that the reflective is a big, word now that I start to use. Brandon Fugel uses it when he goes to Skinwalker Ranch. He says clearly, the phenomena is reflective. Be careful what you think when you go on the, on the,

Starting point is 03:01:07 on the ranch. That if you, like these three guys, the arm guys, the special forces guys that went on there and they were going to play, you know, Hunt a Skinwalker. And the phenomenon, I always call it the intelligence. I just call it intelligence, whatever it is. And it says, you want to play Hunt a Skinwalker? We love to play that game. And these guys are running for the

Starting point is 03:01:24 guy. Yeah. What's inside of you will get excavated, just like a psychedelic trip or something. And I think, yeah, he has another story of a Hell's Angels chief or whatever, you know, getting zapped and in a catatonic state just, you know, paralyzed there. St. Taylor, Taylor was most and often to give them the little zap, you know, with the, the radioactive. Is that Travis Taylor? That's interesting. I also went probably at my highest ego time in my life, and I didn't have a great month afterwards. And I don't know how correlated that was. It wasn't explicitly paranormal.

Starting point is 03:01:57 But Grant, this has been a pleasure, man. I really, really appreciate this. Hopefully I can get you out to Austin, Texas. I'd love to do this in the studio and follow up because I just really get the sense we kind of just scratched the surface. But watch my new stuff. I think I've been led and I think I'm on the right, especially I think I mentioned to you.

Starting point is 03:02:17 I've got an experiment that's about to go one way or the other on the proof of the soul. He should talk to Chris about that. I'll let that be a... It's led me a lot of times where I get, you know, a lot of downloads and I get a lot of direction. And Tim Taylor says the same thing, you know. And Gary Nolan says the same thing. I don't know. I don't know what's going on.

Starting point is 03:02:38 I don't know if there's a little elves in my head, but I know how to make it work. And he tells this whole story about how he puts strings together and he puts all things, he thinks about it. And then he puts on a piece of paper beside the bed. And he said, either the next morning or within a couple days, the answer is in my head. Wow. So you see, these people are starting to learn this. these things that it's not the physical world people think it is. It's much more grand.

Starting point is 03:02:58 It's much more magnificent. And the deeper you look into the microscopic stuff, the more complex it gets. The more you look out there, the more complex they get. Absolutely. And that's what they're trying to tell us. It's not this simple world that you think it is. And they do that through this weird, weird, weird stuff, which everybody's down the rabbit hole, you can't get out, you know what to do.

Starting point is 03:03:19 And so, to me, it's a Super Bowl. And I'm glad to have played in the game. You're the same thing. It's like most people live lives of quiet desperation and have no clue what's going on. And you and I not only know that there's a game, we're inside the stadium and we're on the field, maybe the water boy or the quarterback or whatever, but we're playing the game, which is the Super Bowl of all. Well, you might be the quarterback. I'm special teams, but Grant, on that note, appreciate you, man. Thank you for what you do.

Starting point is 03:03:45 You're the big voice that has to move it out. So it doesn't really help if I learn it and don't tell anyone. so thanks for what you do. Oh, well, I appreciate, thank you, man. I'm just the, I make videos, so. Yeah, awesome. Head to Americanalchemymerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch

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American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - “I Met The Head Of The Entire UFO Program!” - Grant Cameron

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