American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - “I Saw a Triangle Shaped UFO At a NASA Hangar!” -Dylan Borland Tells All

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

Our American Alchemist this week is Dylan Borland, a former 1N1 geospatial intelligence specialist for the United States Air Force. You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! Visit https://ketone.com/ALCHEMY for 30% OFF your subscription order PLUS receive a free gift with your second shipment—or find Ketone-IQ at Target stores nationwide and get your first shot free! iRestore: Unlock your best hair & skin with @iRestorelaser and HUGE savings on the iRESTORE Elite + Illumina Face Mask Bundle with code JESSE at https://www.irestore.com/JESSE #irestorepod ZBiotics: Go to https://zbiotics.com/JESSE and use JESSE at checkout for 15% off any first time orders of ZBiotics probiotics. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Real Canadian Superstore has everything you need this back-to-school season. Save on lunchbox savers like Ziggy's sliced deli-meat products for always $3.75. And get Life Brand Pure Vita shampoo or conditioner for $8 each. At Real Canadian Superstore, when you're ready, we're ready, with a whole world and more. Take me back to Langley Air Force Base 2012. What exactly did you see? Outside smoking a cigarette on the phone, BSN, and I see a light pop up near the NASA hangar. And the light starts to fly to me across the base, and as it flies to me, a triangle manifests around it.

How fast did it move? Between 100 feet off the ground approximately to at minimum 30,000 commercial jet elevation, 2 to 3 seconds. My name is Dylan Portland, a former 1N1 geospatial intelligence specialist for the United States Air Force. So you experience this, and then what happens next? So I was working at BA.E and somebody who worked for the government, they heard about me talking about the triangle, and they thought I was right into the program because they were. That's when I came into knowledge about a very specific program.

I am sure there are crafts that were not made by humanity at this current time and place when we recovered them. Have you ever talked to anybody who seems to have hinted that humans aren't in charge? The ICIG did it. So the intelligence community inspector general told you that humans are not in charge. They extremely hinted at it, yes. Holy shit. Whistleblowers going to the ICIG, if they disclose CIA secrets and Department of Energy secrets,

they're not allowed to be prosecuted for espionage, which is a death penalty. How could you ever, you know, say that somebody's committing treason for drawing a hieroglyphic while simultaneously saying that the whole UFO program is fake? A non-human intelligence pyramid power source. I've been read into so much stuff, I don't even know what I was read into. They said I have PTSD for a job that they're claiming I never did. I get hooked up to this polygraph machine and there's a computer where they're flashing images and air horns, I have to count backwards from 100 by 7,

and if I went 193, 86, instead of saying 79, 78, the air horn would go off and I would have to restart and they would restart the flashing by Joe's. What? Dude. I'm Ignatant frequent side.

I was this talking. It cannot longer be in. Sir. It's an honor in a long time coming to have you here. You testified before Congress in September of 2025. And I remember tuning in from abroad. I was with my buddy Chris Ramsey actually in Spain. And I felt like I don't ever want to go to one of these.

Refinal hearings again, I think it's a total dog and pony show. I honestly thought nothing interesting was coming down the pike. And then I remember listening and actually watching on C-SPAN, your testimony. My name is Dylan Borland, a former 1-N-1 geospatial intelligence specialist for the United States Air Force. During the summer of 2012, my team was on standby for weather and I returned to my barracks on base. And at approximately 0.130, I saw an approximately 100-foot equilateral triangle take off from near the NASA hangar on the base. and being like, this is wild. This guy seems extremely earnest and authentic.

Not only has he had, you know, firsthand sighting, but he seems to know a lot more about UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs than meets the eye. And you experience all sorts of reprisals, administrative terrorism. And so that story is really wild. The ontological truth below it is wild, too. And I'm really excited to have you here. First off, what are you wearing? A wonderful shirt I go on eBay.

I try to tell my friends and loved ones. I love puzzles. So I love video games and puzzles. And, you know, after OD and I committed a felony against a whistleblowers, I decided to go and pick up a couple t-shirts. What does OD&I stand for? Office of Director of National Intelligence, Director's Initiative Group, the dig, which Senate had a hearing with James Irman the third. And it was supposed to be under Tulsi to get into what the government did and has been hiding all these years. And I believe the OD&I started

in 2006 and it was meant to oversee all the intel agencies. And so, you know, CIA, Office of Naval Intelligence, all of that fits within the purview of ODNI, which was supposed to sort of organize them all, oversee them. So little known thing. OD&I is supposed to be the chief boss. CIA doesn't really like to play ball with them. And even James Irman, who testified under Senate recently, about everything they did to whistleblowers for AHA, COVID, and UFOs,

CIA does their own thing. Legally, and by the law, technically, ODI and I is above them. but here we are, alas. So yeah, you are correct, though. 9-11, George Bush, the DHS Act. All of that was created to get that under control, and the CIA continues to do what they do. And I want to be careful here because I don't want to get you into trouble.

So I'll say that somebody from the ODNI said to Jeremy Corbell, the program name of possibly, some UFO reverse engineering program was called, if you remove your hands, Rubik's Cube. I love puzzles, dude. I love puzzles. So I'm not saying that anything came from you, but that that was their statement to him. I was told by an ODNI agent that Dylan testified to ICIG, the police of the intelligence agencies, that there is a UFO program, and it's called Rubik's Cube.

That's what he said. That's what I heard from the ODNI, which they shouldn't be calling me and telling me what was described in a skiff. Am I correct about that? That is for Jeremy and George. I cannot confirm or deny anything. What I will say is Jeremy and George are sweethearts.

I love them. They are incredible friends. I consider them family. They are well informed. If Jeremy and George, as legal reporters in the United States, doing their legal job to inform the public are saying that our country committed crimes disclosing whistleblower testimony to a journalist, take it for what it's worth. They did it. Yeah. I mean, that's a serious accusation to claim that the, you know, most important, at least, you know, structurally.

intelligence agency is doing that, you know, is a very big and bold thing. 100%. And then you get into a real fun stuff, which is why we're here today. For everybody covering this up, how are you going to argue national security when you're disclosing hypothetical classified information to journalists, which would be classified international security? You can't claim we got to hide this. We'll simultaneously disclose classified to journalists. Doesn't make sense, in my opinion. No, it makes no sense. Does it not make sense to accuse whistleblowers who you weren't even on the program directly of treason for essentially letting stuff out due to literally a personal experience where, you know, you happen to be on Langley Air Force Base, but you experience something. And then people assumed you were part of the program, so they told you a bunch of stuff.

So you can't go after, you know, somebody like yourself. Well, and now we get into these crazy situations. I mean, for me, Jesse, it goes back to what I've been adamant about and shout out to Dave and everybody else. You know, we talked about it. Dave is busting his butt. Dave. Grush. And his arms are tied behind his back and everybody is just trying to get this done.

You know, when we talk about retaliation and bumping into programs and talking to WUSAPs. And WUSAP is a wave WOSAP is a wave Wased on a special access program You hide them within special access programs That's how you find That's how you hide money So like hypothetically

I may be doing special operations For drones hypothetically And within there are people who are read in And you have certain SOPs and TTPs But more importantly you have capabilities

that are not allowed to be known to anybody outside of the people right in You can be working next to somebody who is red in and doing that job. And somebody may be working recoveries right next to you and you don't know it. And that might be how more or less somebody may be believed to be read in. Yeah.

Let's back up. I want to set the table for people who maybe are less familiar with your story because we just went off the deep end there. Are you, are you from originally? I was born in Washington, D.C. My dad and my mom met in Pittsburgh, PA, got married, had me. We moved to D.C. My dad actually worked for the U.S. government.

He did all the museums. So he actually, if you ever go to D.C., if you see the Constitution, he helped to set that up. So if you go in there, you see the Constitution. He lived in Palm Springs. We did a lot of Native American museums. He lived up in Baker City, Oregon and did the Oregon Trail Museum up there. So, been around the block, but more or less, you could say I'm from Pittsburgh. Yeah.

And Pittsburgh has an interesting relationship with UFOs historically, right? Yeah, we talked about this last night, my man. And that was a delicious burger, by the way. There you. Best in Austin. You know, this is out there, and I've been trying to edge people into it. Betis research lab up in Pittsburgh, and they were the first people to develop nuclear power for the Navy. And that was in the 50s, and you get into Kexburg and all the UFO sightings in the Western PA region.

At one point in time, they were tasked to develop the nuclear satellites for space, and the contract conveniently ended. But as of right now, Bettis still exists, and they're still doing it. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, Kexburg is around there, and I believe, what do they call it, the triangle? So we talk about this too. So it's called the, like, I-81 corridor. So on Unsolved Mysteries, shout out to Michael Shermer.

You just did that interview. Yep. Michael Shermer has been on Unsolved Mysteries, and between Northfolk, Langely Air Force Base, west towards Winchester. I forget what that city is down there, but north on I-81, all the way to Harrisburg, PA, and then back down through D.C., back down towards Pax River. It's called the I-81 corridor, and they had historically UFO flaps. I hate to call them that for years, decades. If you go in a New Fork, New Fork, you can actually see all of it.

And then this goes back to the first CIA director and him being involved in all this. It's pretty well known historically. Yeah, which CIA director are you thinking of Roscoe Hillencoder? I think so. Yeah. It was the very first one. He was a Navy Admiral, and he retired with the CIO. CIA who's a first CIA director, Navy Amarole, and he was on the board of directors for New Fork.

I'm terrible with news. No, yeah, that was Hill Encoder, because he was actually a classmate of Donald Kehoe who formed NICAP, and then they joined together. And Hill and Coder, it's so interesting because I think he was frustrated at not getting the proper information about Roswell. And so you think of like the first CIA director, and I think he's even, you know, supposedly one of the Majestic 12 or whatever, who was briefed. on this and then, you know, under Truman. But then supposedly he was actually really complaining to Army counterintel saying, actually, I don't know as much as I should about these topics. Yeah, it is. And then you get into the 1947 National Security Act with creating the Air Force,

the CIA, the National Security Council, which you and I discuss, which is how much was Majestic 12 tied into National Security Council. Yeah, man. I mean, I think the irony is, is you, Jeremy, George, Gerb, everybody is unpacking this. And the history is there. And Dave set a foundation publicly. And all of us are coming out. And we're supporting what has been done for decades. Yeah.

And, you know, I am of the opinion that 95, 95% of it's out there. It's just you guys put it together. Yeah. No, that feels right. It feels like it's just hidden in plain sight. And it's all open source. And it's just, you know, can you piece it together? and it feels like a lot of people are pacing it together.

But it's on these sort of, it's this rag tag team of vigilante, like, YouTubers and stuff. And so it's, it's not taken as seriously as, you know, somebody can do an extremely, you know, deep dive on, you know, the legacy program at structure like UAP Gerb. And so he'll go extremely deep. And he'll give you the structures.

He'll talk about how federally funded research and development centers interact with, you know, special access programs, how they have subject matter experts. that oversee these like carve outs, the saps of these, you know, prime contractors and stuff. And, you know, he'll, he'll do a three-hour video and he'll do many of these videos. And then you have Neil deGrasse Tyson, who's this like, you know, high priest of science. And he'll just say one thing like, well, after, you know, 50 years of whistleblowers coming out, you know, he'll be like, after the last 10 years, it really seems like maybe I should start to take this seriously.

And the whole consensus just shifts. but nobody pays attention to people like UAP Gerb it doesn't make sense to me but I yeah I mean I shout Gerb

love him man he's he's awesome he's he is knee deep into Ocent and he knows his stuff oh yeah you know you talk about Tyson it's funny that

here we are and you know what he was like three years ago and now here we are I mean Dr. Phil you know Dr. Phil but ironically

like you brought up Kexb we were talking about Kexford we talked about yesterday right now we're one day passed a Kexburgh anniversary for the party up there. Yeah.

Things are coming together. And like we talked about, I think the next 10 years are going to be real interesting. I think so. I think so, too, and we'll get into that. But so what were you doing in the government initially? So I went to college for my undergrad and criminal justice policy of IUP. I wanted to be an military officer. Like I told Jeremy, weaponized interviews, same old stuff.

I did Army National Guard ROTC. I want to go active duty, and I always want to be Air Force. Why'd you want to do that? It was in me, man. I remember being a little kid with my sister. For those of you who know Pittsburgh, especially at the South Hills, there was a place called Cassie Village. I'm going to kind of docks myself, but it's a little strip mall in the South Hills, and they have an Air Force recruiter station.

and I remember that while I was there, they had one of the old school, like, 1950s posters. And it was a young kid with his sister, and they had a dog. And it was at the Air Force Recruiter Station, Marines, all of it. And I remember seeing that poster. I was like, I really want to serve the Air Force. One of my grandfathers is retired or not retired. He served in Army Counter-Intel for Panama.

The other one served in the Navy. My dad's a Navy vet. What'd your dad do in the Navy? He actually was on aircraft carriers landing and taking off jets. Whoa. And it messed him up. Really? Yeah.

How so? Accidents and then just working 18, 20 hours at a time, you know? It takes a toll on you. Do you think he ever experienced anything with UFOs? No, I talked with him about it. I mean, he's the same what I was telling you about, who did all the museums and stuff. He ended up with National Archives and him and I talked about it. He, uh, when I testified, that's when I think things click for him.

him with like, oh, damn, like, what the hell did my son get into? Yeah. But no, he never talked about it. It was mainly like typical military trauma and BS. So, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, but he was on a nuclear aircraft carrier landing and taking off jets out there in the middle of nowhere in the oceans. And yeah.

So you wanted to be in the Air Force. And then where did you end up? Because I think you ended up in a very interesting position that is kind of unique to our modern warfare paradigm. I would agree. I ended up, so I took my FOQT. I want to be an officer. I could have gone an officer position. The Marines gave me one, but they made me wait three years when I was homeless.

So, you know, my ASFAB, I want to say it was like a 96 and 97, which, not to brag, like, that was actually lower. Like, I knew high school kids that fucking ace that shit. But because I'm at college degree and I got in my 90s, they were like, hey, you have any job you want. I took the linguist test. I forget it was a D-Lab. That's it. So anyway, I was like, look, I know I want to work for the government. I want to help people.

I want to protect people. And I, everything I did was Intel. And then number one was OSI. I wanted to be an FBI agent. Like, I wanted be a pilot and an FBI agent. That is what I wanted from a kid ever since I saw that poster you brought up and what we were talking about. So everything I did was Intel. and I go through all the vision tests, everything, you go through maps, and they're like, hey, you can leave in three weeks, not be homeless, and we'll give you imagery as an enlisted Air Force airmen.

So I was like, sounds great, let's go. And then I got in there, I didn't realize that a one-on-one imagery analyst was ISR. So basically, I got thrown into the drone program. So mandanom and aerial vehicles, satellites, imagery, you know, we got into, the drone program touches on so much humant, siggint, all of it got thrown into that world with special forces, special operations. What years was this?

So I enlisted in 2010. I was medically discharged in 2013. 2010 to 2013. So this was when drone strikes really ramped up. Oh, it was crazy. Yeah. I remember some of my buddies I still talk to today, remember it under Bush, then we transformed into Obama.

And I can't get into details, but I was there for the tail end for the other drone program. Yeah. And notoriously, people know that drone operators who kill enemy combatants actually suffer from a lot of PTSD, sometimes more. Yes. Because they're aware of the kind of dissociation. They're aware that all of this is being turned into some sort of video game. And so it messes with them more. And I can imagine being an image analyst.

So your role was to say, yes, that is the correct target. You know, you can strike, move forward. That's a really tough position to be in, too. Yeah, I, you know, I talk with a lot of my imagery buddies. I need to be careful with how we get into this. But I don't think anybody leaves that world without having it be a part of them, especially on the more problematic side. You get what I'm saying?

Yeah. You know, I told this story on weaponized. At one point in time, the drone program was worse for suicide than anybody else in the military. There's actually something crazy about this is, so when I left the Air Force, a couple, my friends were at the locations where we do this. I want to be real careful. Yeah, of course. Like, if you remember my weaponized interview and we're talking about redactors, Every single special forces unit I probably worked with.

Marsock, pararescue. Redacted. Seals, which is redacted. Everything I was redacted in there is unit names, public unit names. Like, I'll say it, now DevGrew. Everybody knows who DevGrew is. I redacted that because I don't want to put the seals in that position, straight up, and that's fine now. It is what it is.

But when I left the Air Force, my buddies at... the locations. There are specific locations where this is done. They were calling me up and they're like, yo, we had a suicide stand down. And the irony is we were still working while we had the other units stand down for drone issues and we're still working, but there was a military stand down for it. I'm not making fun of them, but it's such a crazy world because it is nonstop. Go, go, go, go, go. And, you know, we support special forces. So we're supporting everyone in special forces. So there is no time down.

Yeah. So it's like everybody just kind of takes a breather. But you're always having somebody go at it. And it's, it's wild, man. I feel like it's like a double whammy as far as PTSD goes because you have the kind of the separation, dissociation and maybe even like survivors guilt. Oh, yeah. forces they're like in there they're they obviously have skin in the game they could easily get

taken out and so it's like you're you have this like what seems like this drudgery of this nine to five but you have this asymmetric advantage and you can just take out targets on command and i can only imagine that that but you're also in the subordinate position where you're just you're serving your country you're doing your job you signed up as a patriotic american to you know defend the country and to take out you know i'm sure in certain cases very bad people, you know, terrorists and stuff. But in other cases, I'm sure there were edge cases that you didn't agree with and you can't do anything about that.

No. And that's shitty. Yeah, it sucks, man. I think all of us who come out of world have that feeling. You know, I'll tell you a story. Well, when I was doing that, my dad came with a visit. He's a Navy vet and he was actually stationed at Norfolk. And he came with to visit me and we were hanging out.

And some stuff went down. and he wants Starbucks. I don't drink coffee, so I was like, dude, I'll go chill with you. And I remember some really wicked stuff went down that weekend. And I'll never forget it. I just got off of a four-day Panama shift. And I'm with my dad down there at Langley, Hampton Roads.

And I'm in line, he's grabbing his coffee. And I'm sitting there thinking, in line while he's getting a coffee, everything I know that I just did for the last four days. And it's like, what the hell is this? It's a weird thing, man, because you have to, you have to be able, it's almost like disassociation. You have to be able to immediately trigger it to turn it on and go. And then once you walk out the door, turn it off because it will mess your life up. Yeah, you have to, I'm sure, keep it super compartmentalized.

And like we talked about yesterday going back to whistleblowers and experiencers. You know, I don't know how Dave does. I don't know how any of us do it. We're just surviving. Like, you're trying to figure out a way to turn this off. knowing that the reality of this is happening. Yeah. And then this goes back to our org.

Like, how do you do this? And that's what we're all trying to figure out. Well, when I look at the eyes of David Grush, the eyes of Jake Barber, you know, I look you in the eyes too. You have this like, I've seen some shit. Look. You do. No, seriously. Like, unless there's some, you know, troop of actor training or whatever inside the government where they're like, you know,

teaching people, Marlon Brando levels of, you know, Oscar winning, you know, then like all these guys are coming out and they look like they've seen some really traumatic shit. Sticking with the, you know, your role as an image analyst for the drone operation. I'm sure there were times too when, you know, there was collateral damage and there were casualties incurred. I will be very careful there. I think it's well documented for all those years. I may or may not have done this for a living, how many people were collateral damage. And I think about it every day, and it breaks my heart.

Well, I'm sorry, man. I mean, just so you know, you were serving the country and you were doing your job. And so, you know, that's, it's not your fault. I appreciate Jesse and I love you, man. Big hugs. Love you too, man. I love you too. Yeah, I wish we weren't in this spaceship.

But here we are. Trippy, man. It is trippy. It is trivia. We're in that SS Enterprise. Yeah. Okay. So that was your role. Take me back to Langley Air Force Base 2012.

What exactly did you see? Yeah, man. I mean, whenever this was weapon, I shot out Jeremy and George, you know, we were on. So same old shit. On Panama schedule, you're on call. You're doing 12-hour shift work. When weather was down overseas. Can't get into specifics, but if we can't fly planes and craft or grab satellite imagery,

you know, you send people home on split shift and you're on call. So I live on base and I always said like, look, man, I don't have a family. I'm living by myself on barracks. Y'all go home to your kids. At least you get a couple hours with them. So 1 o'clock in the morning rolls around. Drive across the base from Langley, pass a NASA hangar, past a runway, go back to my barracks. I change, usually smoke cigarettes, maybe grab a beer, chill out, play some borderlands

or some Grand Theft Auto, whatever. Go out to the gazebo and I'm smoking a cigarette. I'm on the phone with my buddy. He was a federal officer, 1811 position, FYI. I mean, behind the scenes, this goes back to yours. Everybody knows all of these things in the world where I testify to, but outside smoking a cigarette on the phone, BSN, and I see a light pop up near the NASA hangar. You know, I think we'll fill in some stuff on the weaponized interview.

A lot of the redacted stuff, like I said, was protecting individual units, locations, and things I know that were tested. So I'll say it. The first redaction was about weather balloons. I have seen weather balloons be tested from that NASA hangar. I believe in national security. I love the nation. I believe in protecting the nation and protecting the people who serve and die for it. So I see this light pop up from the NASA hangar, 1.32 a.m.

You know, around there. And literally I thought it was a weather balloon. And I see a pop up smoking a cigarette on the phone. Like, oh, that's wild. Clearly at this time of night in the middle of the week, you're testing something fun. Don't think anything of it. Begin walking up. So at night, like, you guys know me at this point.

Most people know me. I had a thing where I walk. I pace. like I got to be doing something. I've always been that way. So I see this. I start walking up the street to the main street to go walk around the track. And I had an old MP3 player.

It had like 12 songs on it. In fact, one of the Nause songs was on there, my man. So I'm walking up there. I walk up to the main street up towards the gym and the jag office. And as I'm walking up, the light that I see popped up from the NASA hangar. and the light starts to fly to me across the base and as it flies to me, a triangle manifests around it.

You know, to be clear, I am very, very, very adamant about what are the facts? I can't tell you if it's active camouflage. I cannot tell you if it manifested around it. I can't tell you if the light created some crazy wormhole. I can't tell what I know is it was a white light that became a triangle, flew to me, there's some other stuff that I don't want to get into that is well known in the IC that it did while it happened

but it flew to me and stopped 100 feet in front of me 100 feet above me and most beautiful piece of technology I've ever seen static electricity smelled like a lightning storm shut off my cell phone red hot which is an indicator of things within the isr world that you know what's happening Crazy. And so it's 100 feet above you. Describe the color, the dimensions of this craft. So approximately in my official arrow MFR that was classified, I described it between 100 and 150 foot equilateral triangle.

There were lights on each corner. There was a center light two to three times larger in the center. It's black metallic flake paint paint. I'm looking at it and I can see the edges. so it was flat on the bottom, two to three times center light, black metallic flake paint. I can feel the static electricity.

The phone's turned off. And so like the edges are 90 degrees that come up and then I never saw the top of it. So like from the bottom to the corners, it was 90 degrees. Who knows what the top of it looked like. But the big one was the outside pulsated move like a lava lamp.

It had like this goldish transparent flow around it where the whole craft was, I don't want to call it moving, but it was moving. It was like take a lava lamp, put it on black metallic flake paint and have the lava lamp flow around it. And it was just sitting there with pulsate. Like I could see the intensity on this gold, on this craft pulsating as it flowed around the craft. was there for like two, three minutes or so. And then all of a sudden the center light flashed. That thing shot up. As I said, my opinion is commercial jet level.

And then got up there, it looked like a satellite, sat there for a minute. I finally reset my phone. And it just went right over the Atlantic Ocean. You said you reset your phone. What happened to your phone? So I was on the phone with my buddy, 1811 position for the government, which is a federal officer, licensed badge carrying, gun carrying federal officer.

I don't want to give his information out. But the phone got hot. My phone call ended. Battery was drained. I was trying to reset it while I'm looking. I want to get a picture of it. I was like, dude, no one's going to believe this. And once it got up to elevation,

so I was trying to reset it while I wanted the picture. And I finally reset the phone once it got up. to elevation, it looked like a star. I remember I was trying to take a picture of it, and this is 2012. I think I had, what, like a Samsung 12 or a Samsung 11 or something? So it turned your phone off? No, so it froze it. I couldn't even turn the phone off.

While I was within that distance of me, the phone was so hot, I couldn't reset it. Like, the phone couldn't reset. It was completely shut down. Did it say due to heat or something? There was a heat warning on it. It was. There was. but like, you know, you hit the power button

and the like volume down or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, it wouldn't turn off. Were you feeling hot? Was your body? No, I just had the static electricity at that time. Once it got up to elevation, once the center light flashed, I could smell that rainstorm.

And then once it got up to elevation and I smelled it, it kind of calmed down, looking at sitting up there. And then that's when the phone cooled down. I was able to reset it. How fast did it move? And obviously you're estimating, but how fast did it go from 100 feet above you to commercial airline level?

So I have testified to this under oath within seconds between 100 feet off the ground approximately to at minimum 30,000 commercial jet elevation, two to three seconds. What would that make it as far as, you know, how fast it, you know, the hell if I know, go from ground level of 30,000 feet in two seconds. It's pretty. Yeah. Have you, have you done the calculation? No, I have not. Well, I mean, if you're going from ground level of 30,000 feet in two seconds at 15. thousand feet per second from stationary two yep so let's call it two if you do three that's 10,000 feet

per second okay so yeah seconds man yeah seconds that thing flashed and that thing was gone it's so wild it's beautiful man when you saw the light turn into the triangle did it go and did the light just like kind of instantly turn into the triangle or was the light slowly approaching and you realized that you saw it as a light because it had this sort of, you know, plasma sheath, gold lava thing around it. This is where, again, this is why I'm trying to make sense. When Jeremy said Dylan's looking for answers in the interview, that is what I'm looking for. I got a lot of questions I know truths on. When it flew to me, the best way to describe it is that light flew to me and the white light was the center light and the triangle manifested or declares

cloaked around it. So for me, it was like that plasma sheath, I watched, I watched a triangle form around the light as a center light. Why do you think it flew straight to you? One of the main reasons I'm able to go multiple hours on these podcasts while staying mentally sharp is because of this little drink. It's a product I started using years ago, and it's called Ketone. IQ. I know the founders Jeff and Michael personally, and I was thrilled when they agreed to sponsor the show,

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slash alchemy for 30% off your subscription order, plus receive a free gift with your second shipment. That's ketone.com slash alchemy for a whole 30% off. Or find ketone IQ at Target stores nationwide and get your first shot free. Why do you think it flew straight to you? One of my many questions I want to answers to. I remember when I was interviewing David Grush, he was allowed. He was allowed. to talk about this even though it wasn't cleared through Dobser because it was like an informal friend testimony or something, but he mentioned a huge 300 foot triangle that somebody saw on their way to work. He was going to work at a certain facility in the morning, you know, not drunk, not high, and a 300 foot triangular craft hovered over his car for a couple minutes.

And all the zenith upper-facing decks of his car were all. got hit with ionizing radiation ultraviolet because the paint became milky. And so is this, like, how common is this? I don't know. Happen all the time. If, if, if I'm right in what you're talking about, I believe that guy was at Norfolk, Virginia. That might be the one at Norfolk, which interestingly is within a couple years of when I saw mine at Langley. Interesting for you. Fascinating. Okay. And so the buddy that you were on the phone with, I'm assuming he's anonymous. Oh, yeah. Okay. Would he back you up privately and say, yeah, I was on the phone with Dylan. The phone shut off. We spoke about it right

after he told me about this experience. I'm sure he would, but again, like this gets into issues with doctors and bosses, how many people, police officers, how many people really want to throw themselves to the wolves of social media get harassed and all that, you know? I'm just saying, do you like, do you still have a good relationship with him? And to, you, he's like, yeah, I remember that time of 2012. Hey, man, I'm 39. I mean, you know, you get older. I got friends I haven't talked to in five years.

We call up and we're laughing. I'm sure if I call him, he's like, yo, man, you remember this? He'd be like, yeah, I remember. I was like, off the record, if you want to say, like, yeah, you were on the phone with me. He'd be like, yeah, I'll do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, gotcha. What do you think this lava-like sort of undulating light was around the craft? So, thankfully, you asked that and thank God, I don't officially know.

I think that it is some way to ionize the atmosphere around a craft with a power source, and it's electromagnetic, probably nuclear. But again, this is hypothetical. I think that what that is is charging the craft positive negatives to ionize the atmosphere around it to control speed, travel direction. That's my opinion. What's so fascinating is, you know, I think the most vital version of anti-gravity that, you know, the U.S. looked into involves negative and positive electrodes being charged with megavolt range electricity, which would ionize the air around it. A lot of these experiments, which were being conducted by Thomas Townsend Brown, ionized the air around it. And so you end up with these sort of charged particles, you know, basically plasma. And then they recombine with. With air or O2, you get O3, you know, three oxygen molecules. And that's what this, it's literally what you described.

It's this thunderstorm effect. I'm glad you said it because, again, you get into the nitty-gritty. I love you and Gurb and Jeremy and George and everybody's studying this. What you just said is more than I know based off of my own testimony. I believe you. I mean, it makes sense to me. Again, I can only understand what I know and what I've witnessed and what I've seen and what I've testified to.

everything you said makes perfect sense to me and my limited understanding from witnessing it and studying it so that makes sense and you said the object didn't fly towards a base it flew over the ocean and then did it descend down never saw it looked like a satellite

so once I saw it come from the hangar the white light it flew to me the triangle manifested decloved insert however it came to be the light became the triangle got up to elevation stopped looked like a satellite and then it went due east out over the ocean and I lost it as it slowly moved east

out over the Atlantic. Do you think it came out of the NASA hangar, this craft? I don't know. I don't, but it could have. I mean, that NASA hanger is huge. That's a big NASA hangar and being where I live and working with C-17s, you know, I know a big hangar when I see it, but I don't know. Do you think NASA houses exotic, reverse engineered UFO? Well, here's a funny one for you. This is a good question, and this is public knowledge. And I'm sure when this comes, people are going to go dig into this. If you go to Langley Air Force Base and you look at NASA and you look at Google, you can start clicking all the buildings that are tagged.

And interestingly enough, a lot of those buildings have people that work there that are tagging like puzzles and hieroglyphs and rocks and formations. but again, maybe it's just people that work there are trolling, but you can look it up on your phone right now. They are tagging puzzles and hieroglyphs? It's like, it's like labyrinths, and they're showing pictures of pyramids, and they're showing pictures of hieroglyphs and rock formations. On Google Earth.

Yeah, you can pull it up right now. Why would they be doing that? A hell of fine. No, dude, but they did it because I was laughing when all this stuff went down. I started screenshoting it. This connects with, again, this is OD and I talking to Jeremy Corbella journalist, apparently. I'm not even saying, you know, this is me hearing this in your interview with him.

And he said that Rubik's Cube is this program name that freaks them out. So puzzles, that's where my mind goes. And then he also said that you drew pictures for the ODNI, and one of those pictures was a hieroglyph. So you're saying that this area where you saw the UFO is being tagged. with all the UFO related knowledge that you seem to have. What I am saying is that if you go into Google Earth, as of right now while we talk about this, there are people on Google Earth where if you pull it up,

or not Google Earth, Google Maps. But you're saying that they work there. Oh, yeah, they work there. If you pull up Google Maps, you can see it. You can go and track them down on LinkedIn. See, here's the problem. So it's not random trollers. No.

Literally people who work there are tagging where you saw the UFO. At least on that section of the base, are tagging like random labyrinths and random buildings, and they're showing pictures of ancient archaeology and random stuff, and you can go and pull up their record on LinkedIn, and they clearly work there, and there's just a random picture of a labyrinth

connected to some random hangar at the NASA facility at Langley. That is so crazy. And Langley, you know, people think of Langley as, synonymous with CIA. Well, this is Langley, Virginia? Yeah.

Well, Langley Air Force Base. And so where is Langley Air Force Base with respect? Right next to Norfolk. Okay. Like right across a bridge, a tunnel at Norfolk. So is it, is that in Langley,

Virginia? Uh, well, see, here's a problem is when people talk Langley, they think CIA, Langley Air Force Base is Langley, Virginia as well.

Um, Hampton Roads, Norfolk, that whole area. Um, however, what's interesting is you bring up the NASA angle, the reason why NASA exists there is because back when we had the trip to the moon, that is where we were developing that technology to go to the

moon. NASA's development to get up into space and everything pressurization was done at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia. Wow. I still can't get over. We're going to look this up right after this. So there are employees there who are tagging puzzles, labyrinths, ancient archaeology. It's pictures. It's pictures and it's just random weird stuff of like pyramids, labyrinths, puzzles, and it's just like, oh, click this facility. You know how when you look at Google Maps, you'll see like posts.

People have just random pictures of this random stuff there. And you go and look them up on LinkedIn. It's like, you're a PhD in like electrical engineering. Why are you tagging this and posting this on this facility at NASA Langley? Well, that seems like, if that's the level of operational security, you know, involved in the program, they shouldn't be going after you. Oh, do you weren't even like, you know, on the program. Like, that's insane. That's not.

To be fair, Jesse, we talked about this too. I mean, what joke is this when OD&I is surrounding whistleblowers and falsifying evidence for treason and espionage and then committing a felony and leaking a journalist? Like, what are we talking about anymore? That's so crazy. I mean, the other really interesting thing about all of this is you have this guy, Jim, Katzky, who's this, you know, longtime DIA rocket scientist, who's in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. He was clearly involved in Ossap, this program between 2007 and 2012, and on weaponized with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp. He's saying that he breached the hull of a UFO craft. You're telling us, you told us because you were allowed to tell us that our government

has a UFO in its possession and has been able to access the inside. of it, right? Yes. Which is wild that he's saying this and he's publishing this in his book and he's saying, I can only say that, I can't say more. But what's really interesting is if you read his book, New Insights and I think his other book as well, he talks about UFOs as puzzles, as like almost consciousness puzzles. It's as if the byproduct is, you know, either ancillary technology that we even have the

framework to be able to create. So maybe you end up with fiber optics, but the original use for the thing was like way too complicated for us to ever even, you know, surmise what it was used for. But it's almost like it's, it's meant to fuck with us a little bit. Like we look at the, we look at this saucer in a hanger and we're like, we have no idea how this could ever be built. And that explains these debates, you know, with like Eric Weinstein, Eric Davis, where Eric Davis is like, we don't have physicists on this stuff. Who wasn't a real physicist there? Nobody at the Ph.D. level who is either an applied physicist or a theoretical physicist.

Because the physics frameworks we have are so, you know, they fall so short. I, you know, we talked about this last night, too. I think, I think Lekatsky is probably my favorite old timer. Hate to say it. And I never talked to Jim. I would love to. I send him peace in love. You know, I know he's popped up recently again.

and Davis did his interview. Likatsky isn't a BSer. Likatsky said it happened. It happened. And hypothetically, I may or may not know some of the stuff he said is true. But like we talked about,

one of the things you got to remember is, I know for a fact and most of us do know, which is our government will recruit people who are competent to understand the information and train them to do the job and the way they want them to. Back to physics. and we taught you, you know where I'm going with this.

But yeah, you're absolutely right, you know. But I think you're making a point, which is there wouldn't be physicists on the program. You might want electrical engineers or just generally high IQ competent people because you can retrain them with, you know. And then hypothetically, if you understand the physics, then it doesn't matter what the physics is. And now it comes down to a matter of reverse engineering. Yes, and then I struggle with, I don't think that they understand the physics. That would be my guess, but I don't know. I'm completely open. You and I talk about, I don't know. I'm completely open to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm completely open to it. Yeah. In 2023, Langley Air Force Base basically saw drone incursions for 17 days. New details are now emerging about mysterious drone activity over U.S. military airspace. Air Force officials. confirmed several unmanned drones

flew over Langley Air Force Base in Virginia last December. The Pentagon is still not saying what officials think these things really are. Drone incursions. Yeah, drone incursions. Basically, UFOs, 17 consecutive nights, a swarm of unidentified drones

infiltrated the restricted airspace over the base. So one of our most sensitive air spaces. And, you know, it was a dozen or more drones were involved in the incursions. It was more than two weeks. The official response, the Pentagon publicly confirmed the incursions in October of 2024, and the spokeswoman said, we have no idea what this is.

We haven't identified any of these things, and we have no defense against them. There is so much of that story because I know what they were targeting. Again, I was working for DITRA at that point, you know, people for it. So DITRA is the defense threat reduction agency. It's all WMDs. So counter WMD, nuclear biological, chemical. and I'm an imagery guy. And do you think DITRA ties in with the UFO legacy?

Oh, of course. That goes all the way back to D-O-E. I mean, again, if people go through their history, things become clear. But again, where I was at within Dichra, it doesn't really have anything to do with it, you know? Yeah, that whole drone incursion thing, there's a lot more to it. There's a lot of imagery there.

There's a lot of fun things there that I know exist. but if you think about, I don't even want to say think, everybody who knows knows, those drones were really targeting primarily NASA and then a very specific location on Langley Air Force Base. Because you got to remember the NASA side of Langley is separate from Langley Air Force Base. There are two separate gates and there's a fence that guards it and there's patrols. But, uh, were they, um, targeting, because I believe, um, there were, there were stealth bombers there with possible, well, here we go.

This is going to be fun. One to think about. So the F-22 is a stealth aircraft. Yes. They were targeting the stealth aircraft. Okay. And they were targeting NASA hangers. And then to me, the payload would be the more.

interesting thing if you're a UFO. And this is me saying. Yeah, that's real. That's you. I'm speculating this because I have data of around, you know, again, 167 plus whistleblowers who are at nuclear sites all over the country coming from this guy, Robert Hastings. And even if you look at Nimitz, it's like a little known secret that tactical nukes are, nukes are almost always on board, you know, these aircraft carriers. So nuclear is just this ubiquitous connection with UFO. UFOs always show up around nuclear. They do. Yeah. They do. Okay. All right. Well, we can move on because I'll get you in trouble.

You did say, you know, some interesting stuff that I know is there. And on Twitter, somebody said, we need 4K videos of UFO and we need NHI bodies. Okay. And then you said, I know that exists. You said, I know it exists. Okay. Yeah. I know directly that right now, in our.

government, there is cell phone video ending the conversation about the triangles once and for all, and that is cell phone video. That's not even imagery. Cell phone video within 100 feet of it. I know it for a fact. And you know that we have high-res imagery of you. 100% because, again, I know what I had and I know it was redacted from me because I wasn't read into the saps.

As for the bodies, I want to be, I'm glad you brought this up. I want to be clear. This is where this gets into fun. I am sure these things exist And during my whistleblower Through Arrow and the IG And Congress Like I said and weaponized

When people ask a question When you understand why they're asking a question After you make a statement But uh I believe Dave I trust Dave I know what I know I've been told

I know what I testified to And I know what came back as was confirmed I know what Arrow and hypothetical aesthetically, the IG have told me directly in Skiffs, it absolutely exists. There's no doubt in my mind. None at all. And you're sure we have craft and hangers all over the country? I don't know about all over the country. I'm sure we have craft. Yeah. I'm sure they exist in a hangar somewhere or underground, wherever they're at,

but we have crafts. But you know that they're not just these aerial objects that are ephemeral, that we don't understand. You know that we have been studying them on the ground in isolated conditions. I am sure of it. But again, this goes back. Again, this gets into the fun stuff we were talking about hypotheses. You know, if...

But it's not, that's not really a hypothesis. You're extremely... I am sure there are crafts that were not made by humanity at this current time and place when we recovered them. That is no doubt. Where they come from, no idea.

You know, this is one of the things that people always attack this subject. They want to lump me in with, quote, unquote, aliens and little gray. and all that. That's not the truth. I've never said extraterrestrials exist. I've never said we have proof of extraterrestrials.

But non-human. We have craft that were not made by humanity at the time we recovered them. Major difference. We recovered things that were not made by us when we found them. Future ancient humans. We talked about the hypothesis of a human soul

in us going to another planet and we're watching ourselves. And these are more advanced than... Clearly. F-22s and F-35s and... Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating.

Yeah. Okay, so... So wild. So you experienced this and then what happens next? With the triangle? Yeah, with the triangle. Dude, I went back to the dorm room, smoked a cigarette, and played borderlands or call a duty.

I mean, I went back to work. I talked with a couple of my buddies and, you know, people heard me talking and I won't get into it but uh they know who they are and I love them and I talked with them a little bit after the hearing and they got real sketched out when I was like yo people want to talk about this I can protect you I'll bring you forward ghosted but uh you know people would share with me their situations with these things but uh that was really it At that point, had you met anybody who claimed to work on the program directly? Not at all.

Okay. But they were just, when you say their situations, their sightings. You know, it was so like I had an excellent, I had an excellent tech sergeant. He was a prior loadmaster, which I don't know if you know what that is. They're the guys who load up C-130s, C-17s, make sure the weights are good, make sure everything's good there. He clearly knew what was going on. My tech sergeant was the one that was like, Dylan, don't talk about this ever again. and you have no idea what you got yourself into.

I ran into a security forces guy who was a Raven, which is some Air Force stuff, but he was a Raven, and he was talking about a situation in North Dakota where a C-17 landed. They dropped off a box. It was this whole ordeal in the middle of night. What was in the box?

No idea. I was just told that a C-17 landed. They were called in. They had a surround the hangar in North Dakota. they brought the box in. They were told, don't let anybody come here other than this general

or anybody coming with this general. They were there for five, six hours, C-17 lands, open up the hangar door, throw it back in the C-17, a new one, and off it goes. Again, so to be clear, again, I am very factual-based.

Who knows, maybe it was some Chinese stuff or Russian stuff, but we were talking about this while I was at Langley and people were just telling me odd things. experience that were out of place. Yeah, man, I just went, I went back to the dorms, back to the barracks, and chilled, and

that was that. How'd you end up at BAE systems? And what does BAE stand for? British aerospace engineering. Ended up there. I finished my master's degree and my background and my education. They wanted me there. So I took the job.

I needed to work at, what was that, 26? 27, yeah. And you've called that kind of multi-agency role. I don't know if this is an example of a thing that you can say anything more about. We're getting a fun. I, you know, my resume speaks for itself. I can say I work for BAE systems, you know, going back to OD and I and the BS they pulled. You know, if I can't talk about it, at least what I know, because, again, I've never been through Dobser.

I'm not approved. Like, I am, you know, everybody knows. You're going off script. I'm literally just out here. existent, man. Good. But, you know, I, I don't want to get into the agencies I work for because to the best of my knowledge, without going through clearance to talk, the last I heard, I'm not allowed

to talk about the agencies I work for. Can you say generically, you were working on special access programs? 100%. Yep. And so you're working in this capacity and you run into other people that you think are on. the UFO program directly. Yes. So I was working at BAE, and I was talking about the triangle and other things I was aware of.

And somebody who worked for the government in a program knew what BAE was doing to me with my clearance and had heard about what I was doing. I worked with them. And they heard about me talking about the triangle, and they thought I was read into the program because they were. And that's when this began this whole thing. there were about two other people who were absolutely red in and that's when I came into knowledge about a very specific program. And okay.

Interesting. Just to look at your shirt. And yeah, okay. It's a very specific program. So was this like an overarching umbrella legacy program, like a multi-generational? crash retrieval and reverse engineering program or like an isolated thing. I want to be respectful. I mean, their accesses were pretty large in scale, but their job was fairly large in scale.

What you ought to remember is historically, if you get run into a special access program, usually they allow you the backlog and they were able to backlog a lot of the historical stuff. and they had found out quite a bit. Interesting. Okay, so, oh, man, my mind is jumping to all sorts of places. So it's like if you have a legacy UFO reverse engineering program and it's not in the digital age for many decades, a lot of knowledge is going to get lost.

A lot of taxonomies aren't going to get created. And you're going to need something in the modern day to kind of concatenate all of that knowledge, to put it all in kind of a central database, find deeper patterns with some of these things. Yeah, I want to be careful here again, because I love this country. I love this country.

I mean, this is what I said. Under oath, I said the Constitution shredded. Why I became a whistleblower is because I was concerned about people's safety, not UFOs. I know what they did to me. I know what they did to others who were in these programs. I know how the read-ons worked, at least for them and others. I know where they went.

I know all of that. But there is a, at least in their instance, a historical backlog that once they were read in, they went in began to dig into. And that's when those individuals began to get into trouble. Yes. Let's just talk instead about like the specifics here, because I don't want to get you into trouble, kind of high level, how you think the UFO legacy program works. Because there are different narratives out there. there as to how it actually function. So you think that these are physical craft, and you do think there are bodies as well and freezers, essentially? Well, I don't know about bodies and freezers.

I know there's a genetics component to it. You know there's a genetics component. What do you mean by that? I know that there is, at some extent, Dave call it biologics. There is no doubt in my mind, that there is something dealing with genetics. And, you know, I, again, Dave said specifically that they're pilots that were recovered with these UFOs. And I do believe, Dave, and I want to be very careful. You and I talked about this. You know where my line is with my knowledge outside of government, where I draw a line. I think that is true.

I think, personally, I know it's true, but I'll leave it there. You know, you get in a remote viewing, we're talking about midnight climax, M.K. Ultra, mocking bird. And we're talking about all those programs. It's almost like it's an umbrella program under ESP 6 cents UFOs. It seems, in my opinion, knowing enough that I do know, officially from government and being a whistleblower, all of that is connected up under one umbrella. And Lakatsky and Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, all of that ties into it.

I mean, they almost admit it. So, so MKLT, all of these, like, off the books programs all tie in. together? I think my, well, I'm sure a lot of them do, but again, looking at going back to what you talk, discuss with intent. And so I, I think of those programs that you just mentioned as CIA programs. Yeah, they are. Yeah. So like the, the, the larger umbrella is CIA. And then there's like some, is there some department there? I mean, a lot of people named Glenn Gaffney, who's, yeah, the director of science and technology there as being responsible, you know, one of the last leaders of the legacy program. Eric Davis said that he was the guy on my show.

Well, I would love to talk to the head of the crash retrieval program during that era, but he refused to talk to us. And that was, that was Glenn Gaffney? Yeah. Okay. Glenn Gap. I think they're absolutely correct. And then you get into Department of Energy, and we discussed this. So, 2023, Dave testifies.

I go to the ICIG. I have my attorney. The following year, Congress signs into law. They get the president to sign it. And they say, hey, by the way, you need a redefine credible and urgent. And oh, by the way, whistleblowers going to the ICIG. If they disclose CIA secrets and Department of Energy secrets, they're not allowed to be prosecuted for espionage. So why is Congress creating a law saying that the following year from whistleblowers coming forward after Dave comes with 40 other witnesses? Kind of coincidental, don't you think? They are allowed to prosecute whistleblowers. I believe that that is one of the arguments that was being made at the point in time, which is, well, even though they followed the law, you disclosed information to the attorney general outside of the control group and you violated the law. You get into secret laws now. You get into like restricted data, the atomic energy commission.

Yes. Yes. Atomic energy act where things are born secret. And if they have anything to do with, I think it's a transclassified nuclear material, you know, anything dealing with any of this stuff, then upon retrieving a thing or upon coming into any information, you know, that is already a state secret that you are. Absolutely. You have a possession of. And so this idea would be that if you were to tell that to the IC Inspector General, the intelligence community inspector general, who's kind of playing this judicial role within the intelligence community. then you'd be able to be prosecuted?

But this goes back to what you talked about earlier is technically DNI is supposed to oversee the CIA. That's not how it works. The CIA answers to the president. DNI answers to the intelligence community, which Congress has sort of oversight over. Department of Energy is almost basically the same as the CIA. They answered whoever they want and they claim executive branch privilege. So whistleblowers coming to the ICIG, disclosing executive branch. classified, inherent, and born classified, presents a problem, and that's why Congress had to create

the legislation in 2024. Hypothetically. And hypothetically, there are radar signatures that pick up UFOs, and are they in a specific range, hypothetically? Hypothetically, yes. Okay. Interesting. And so you're finding out a lot. at BAE systems. And this is like water cooler talk or like, how are you figuring this out? I don't like it in specifics because I am so protective of people and I feel so bad for the people who are harmed by this.

People who I love and I care about and have been through a great ordeal with me by themselves, with me personally, without me. You know, Dave, when your job is taken from you, you lose everything and you witness somebody, else going through it and they're talking about things that you were brought into, it impacted them in a way. So this goes back to it, like I said, my thing was when I heard that people's lives were in danger, that's why I acted. If I had never heard that, I would not be a whistleblower.

Like the UFO subject, all of this is whatever. I know what I went through and I know what others went through and I do believe that. This is why Sullivan and Dave and everybody else, Herrera, the threats, all of it mess me up. That's real. All of this is real. I don't want to call it water cooler talk. It was like trauma bond. Does that make sense? Sure. Yeah. So you're in a situation doing an insane job with insane accesses, with insane knowledge, watching other people get screwed by the government. Yeah. And it's like, who else do you talk to? And this goes back to Vanguard. This goes back to what manner trying to figure out. And even the experiencers, you know, we're trying to help each other because we're all lost in the woods. And I don't want to call us Alcass. We can only rely on

each other until this gets over the hump, you know? I want to get to Vanguard and ways for people to help and support. Love it. Before that, uh, you, And Jeremy talked about a power source when it comes to UFOs. Jeremy asked me a question. I didn't talk about it. Did you draw an image of a non-human intelligence pyramid power source for the ODNI? He said the power source. He went on my show and he talked about a pyramid structure.

talking about a pyramid power source. We're talking about something that you could put in other stuff. I'm imagining that's how we would retrofit things. Yes. That sort of gives off a definite energy and seems to almost like fry anything it interfaces with because it just kind of keeps going. Yeah, I know. I'm familiar. I listen to it.

Okay. What about it, buddy? Okay, so plead the fifth on that one. You know, there's no plead the fifth. I heard it, you know, hypothetically. That's crazy. If you have... Hypothetically, if you have an electromagnetic power source

that probably operates off of nuclear principles and it gives off energy and you can't control the load, you know. But I think of a nuclear reaction as, you know, ending at some point. I would assume so, but again, So this goes back to one of our first discussions with Townsend Brown, and we talked about it, like the Model T Ford versus a 2026 Ferrari. Henry Ford builds a Model T and all of a sudden he ends up at an Army base and they're like, oh, this is awesome. Oh, by the way, check out what's in the garage and there's a 2026 Bluetooth Ferrari with fuel injectors and the rest of it. If we take a modern nuclear power source back to the 1700s, can you control the load?

do you even know what the hell is happening? Right. That's, in my opinion, hypothetically, what's going on? Yeah. That's so crazy. It also touches on, you know, when I interviewed Lou Elizondo, and, you know, it's always hard to parse these things and he speaks so high level and there's always, you know,

sort of code or whatever, but it's like he was like talking about, he was like, you know, the U.S. has a toy. And, you know, it's like, it was like this weird, like, analogy of like, You know, you have all these other countries and we're all in the playpen together. And if they play nice, they get access to the toy. You know what? Maybe we can find a way where the kids in the sandbox can play together, right? If you can't break the toy in 12 pieces, maybe you put it in the middle of the sandbox

and rather than letting every child takes turns playing with it, you make a game where all the kids play with it at once. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And that's how you do it. It seemed to be maybe an analogy for like free energy or some like device that's like all powerful. And then in my mind, I'm like, how real is this or is this classic, you know, the CIA for many

years will play up capabilities. They'll play down other capabilities. So it's always this sort of game of cat and mouse. You're always trying to figure out what's going on. But maybe he was talking about this pyramidal. I, you know, I love everybody. I want nothing but the best. I keep loving my heart.

I tell everybody I love him. I love Lou. Lou is a very highly intelligent man. He's super smart. Oh, Lou is very intelligent. Yes. Dave, I think the vast majority of us, in fact, all of us are highly intelligent.

I would have to go and pick apart that interview. I may do it. When we get done with this, give me the interview. I'm going to pick that thing apart, and I will know what Lou is talking about and I see talk, and I will have many opinions.

but he's not a dummy. And Lou's book revealed so much that if people understand IC Talk, you can understand what's being said, same as James Lackatsky's interview, the third interview with Jeremy and George. Lou's book revealed a ton. And also, if you read Eminent, his book,

he talks about BAE systems as one of the companies that inherited, you know, UFO technology. Yeah. Yeah, he talks about locations. He talks about locations that are very close two things that happened recently. What locations does he talk about? He talks about them.

And his book, well, Jeremy said this. I'm going to quote, Jeremy quoting Lou's book, which was clear by Dobser, because I'm not going to jail because I'm free-balling it. No, no, no. You know, Pax River comes up quite a bit, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. So Pax River is basically has all of the hangers for the most advanced naval aviation. And it would be where, and I just had Eric Burlison on Congressman from Missouri, and he was like, this looks like a place where you would transfer a UFO.

You might even hold a UFO. I was able to actually be on site and see the facility that would have been that facility that they were going to transfer from Lockheed Martin to Bigelow Airspace. And I'll tell you, just being there and seeing it, if you were ever going to do a transfer, it would be logistically the perfect venue to. do that. I was in Luce book. Yeah. Yeah. And then you got to remember too. And then here's the problem is I'm trying to be so safe because I love this country. I love national defense. I don't want to put anybody in danger. Pax River strategically for a defense perspective, if you have a golden dome, hypothetically, that's a really important place to have. That's pretty far east. You have access all along the East Coast. So you throw something on Pax, you throw something in South Florida,

you throw something up in Maine. You can defend the East Coast. But yeah, yeah, hypothetically. Hypothetically. And then you also have Salvatore Pais with his Navy patents from 2018 coming out of Pax River. And basically everything that you would need to build a UFO from room temperature superconductivity to, you know, mass reducing device, this thing that breaks the schwinger limit. But yeah, he has all these patents that basically like how you would build a UFO. Well, what you got a love about Paise and you and I talked about him and other things last night, too. I love the fact that we're getting into this right now.

But, you know, if you're going to Google patents, they reference older patents to justify their current ones. And what's interesting is if you get into some triangle patents and some other things, you start to track down power sources and gravity control. you end up back in the 50s with the Air Force and NASA and they're referencing things that are like, huh. So. Like what from the 50s? Just it's been like two years since I read it. Yeah.

But they're talking about like gravity and temperature and all of it. It was the golden age of relativity then was what it was called. And even you had Bryce DeWitt was writing about, you know, superconductivity and these rotating superconductors that would. maybe create gravitational perturbations. He was writing about this in the 50s. You also had Stanley Deser and Richard Arnawit from Princeton writing about gravitons. And that connects with Ning Lee's work in the early 2000s because she had this graviton

model where you had AC superconductors rotating super quickly, creating weight reduction for anything above it. And, you know, it was this gravitational shielding mechanism. And if you read James Lakatsky's book, he talks about ceramic superconductions. which are very similar to, you know, what Ning Li was talking about. So, FYI, thank you for sharing that because I listen to you and GERB and I pay attention. I always learn some new stuff about people and science when I listen to you. And GERB always throws some acronym.

I'm like, oh, what is that? And then I find my rabbit hole down. I'm like, oh, I know about that. So thank you for sharing that. But, you know, you get into a really weird place with Paise. And, well, how much of that is? a cover and how much of that is true. Yeah. It's very, it's very unclear. And there are basic, when I run those patents by conventional physicists, they usually say this is extremely intriguing,

but they're like checkmate in one ways to, you know, debunk this stuff. It doesn't really make any sense on the face of it. So there's either something deeper going on and he has something vital. He's not, you know, saying or it's, you know, deflecting or trying to throw people off the trail. unclear. Yeah. And he, there was a place where I got to in my interview with him where he was like, Jesse, go no further or whatever. We were talking about the fifth dimension, uh, where electromagnetism might connect with gravity. Let's get a little as though. As you hit the shwinger limit. Break space time. What happens vis-a-vis this fifth dimension? Will not. Okay. We'll not touch on that. Leave it there. Jesse. Trust me. I'm not. Leave it there. So that might connect with

this guy, Ferris Williams, who had this 5D dynamical model. And he was, so Oakey Shannon, who is this. Yeah, I know Oak. I know Oaks. You know he is. Yeah. So he's this Los Alamos project manager who is involved in this advanced theoretical physics group with Howl put off in a bunch of people in the 80s and 90s.

And they were kind of open source trying to study, you know, how UFOs work. And he was like the closest guy who had like a theoretical model for describing this was, this guy, Ferris Williams, spelled with a P. What does five-dimensional theory appears to do? It's tied together electromagneticism with gravity. And if you can do that, if you can take advantage of his expanded Maxwell equations, then maybe you can build an anti-gravity device. Yeah, I, we're going to have fun with this one.

So I'm going to tiptoe this. So I told you that in 2024, I had a large database saved, of documents, briefings, private messages on classified on J.Wix. And NSA came through and cleaned house. And they basically shut down Intel Link and Intel Docs. And we had to go get new justifications. But Oak Shannon was a massive conversation on the classified servers. And I may have been participating upon that once upon a time.

Really? Oh, yeah. So people thought maybe he was involved. in real UFO legacy initiatives? I think people, well, this gets into the fun with ATIP OSAP, UAP, UAP task force, and the theory that a lot of that was red teaming, the legacy program, and figuring out, okay, because these groups are so selective that I don't want to call a brain drain, it's very groupthink.

So create a third party, figure out what people can figure out with the internet and modern open source, have new theories come through and feed it back in. You know what I mean? Like, oh, we're going to reverse it, feed it back in, and let these people have some new ideas. So it was like, let's create this faux oppositional force, almost like a white hat hacker. Let's figure out vulnerabilities with the UFO legacy program where they're missing, you know, what they're missing on certain things. Bring in some outside civilian eyes with the dirds from ASAP where you had civilian scientists writing about really exotic propulsion modalities and then it feeds back into the legacy program. Yes, and then it's real fun because this goes back to

ODNI and things I figured out after I went to the ICIG and I knew how to track down search and rescue ops because I did it for a living. I had to find fucking soft guys overseas. Excuse my language. Sorry for the F-bomb. But I know a search and rescue tasker with imagery and SIGT when I see it and I know what is our guys and what isn't. And they were very interested in how I knew everything I knew, especially after I went to the IG and all the documents I had and imagery I had. Conventionally, most of the people I know believe that there is some element that all of that was getting fed back into legacy to run cover,

which is, hey, these guys figure it out not just on the inside classified, but on the outside, here's what they're seeing, feed it back in to adjust appropriately. Well, I look at the modern, you know, Aero Director, and it's a former NSA guy. And so I think about what maybe a cynical version of a modern push for disclosure would be. And it would be like, let's get limited disclosure, we'll increase the surface area of this stuff. You get a bunch of civilian scientists, people from the outside, newly interested in the topic. They're contributing all sorts of things. you have signals intelligence on all of this stuff.

You can collate it. And then you can search it. You can analyze it. And all of a sudden, you crowdsource intelligence for the UFO legacy program, which remains intact, vital, and newly immunized by the executive branch. Fully agreed. Yeah, that's tough. That's tough to.

And wherever you go, you know, people, you know, seem really iconoclastic and irreverent. And then, you know, they're on the outside. And I think it's this really tough thing where you probably experienced this post blowing the whistle, post doing your first thing in this area. You get sort of softly surrounded by spooky people. And then it's like, join this board and join this thing. And then you turn into this like castrated version of your former self that was like really, you know, gungho about like true disclosure. I, you know, I, for me personally, I've been very blessed and lucky, which is I've been very clear in this. I mean, this even goes back to OD&I.

I told OD and I was like, look, I expect you guys to lie. What I want is I want answers for me. I want accountability. I want restitution for the whistleblowers. It's like, I don't give a damn what you guys do. Answer why you did what you did. Hold the people accountable. Don't let the doctors and the GS-14s and 15s do this to anybody else.

and then make sure we can live our lives with our families. Luckily, I kind of encapsulated myself where I've been very closed off. And even when you and I first talked, you know, it's ever been an issue to get in touch with me. Everybody knows how to get in touch with me. But what you said in my experience with everybody else is very true. Yeah. And that is very true.

You get surrounded and it's even a concern now. like I have friends who went to war with me against the CIA and DNI internally. Like went to war and said, I can prove you're lying and did so. But you're absolutely right. And now, and then you get into the whole thing with like how they use this against you. It's like, you bring it up. It's like, oh, you're paranoid. Well, no, I'm not paranoid.

Why are you coming at me saying all of a sudden like, oh, join this board, join this group, come into this meeting. It's like you never gave a damn until right now. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, yeah. Intent, my man.

Intent. Totally. Well, I think intent translates over time. And if you keep your intent pure, that's the best sort of defense against getting sort of rolled into those sort of weird quasi. Quasi disclosure, but quasi, you know, I don't know, just weird initiatives. Yeah. Because there's a lot of those weird initiatives. It almost seems like private business and parts of the IC are really deep into.

remote viewing and what people know and experiences right now, that really seems like a big thing going on, almost as if people are expecting something to come. Right. Yeah, no. Well, speaking of expecting something to come, there's this constant talk in UFO disclosure world of some event happening in the mid-2020s. First, it was like 2026, then 2027. Now it might be 2034. and going back to actually that Lou Elizondo interview, I remember calling him out and saying, look, I think you, it seems like you know a lot more than what you're saying about all these topics and you're holding a lot in clearly.

And he admitted that. And he sort of got uncomfortable and he was like, time is not a luxury that we can afford. What is imminent? Time is not a luxury that we can afford. The time has come, we need to start having the conversation. collectively. We should have had it a while ago, but we really need to, we really need to start

having a conversation. And I would love for that to not be such an opaque statement. What is that, what does that mean? And, you know, honestly, I tend to be skeptical of anybody saying, you know, here's a date, you know, something might happen by that date. But yeah, what do you think? Do you think that that might be? It also, simultaneously, I'll defend that position and say, I can't explain modern disclosure. Maybe it's how I just explained it, and maybe they're cynically crowdsourcing some of this knowledge. But I can't explain it otherwise

because they've created monsters in the form of people like UAP GERB and other people who are just open source researchers that they didn't anticipate. You're opening the whole Pandora's box of everything we discussed. So I am very fact-based, which is I am looking what is provable, what I know is true behind closed doors, what is classified. It's why I keep telling people.

You know, Dave, Matt, myself, Lou, Stratton, Herrera, let's, Barbara, it doesn't matter. If you went forward, put your name to paper and said, this is true, execute me, if it's not true. It's not up to us to go and commit felonies to disclose the classified to the public. The public should be asking the government to say, yo, did they lie?

As of right now, as far as I'm aware, not a single entity in the government has said any of us have lied, but the future and a future date and time is a luxury. So I have tiptoed around this a lot and you and I talked about this. I think you know where I'm going with this, which is I think my best guess. I don't know for sure. This is my best guess. I think something happened in the mid-2000s that changed the game.

I think something showed up that we were not tracking. maybe China had a breakthrough, maybe Russia had a breakthrough, maybe a third party made a breakthrough. Maybe something came here that we just didn't know. I think that based off of the way the government, the military views things, knowing they're tracking, aircraft carriers, nuclear sites, it's not just the U.S., it's everybody. Like, this is a global issue. I think that it's not hard, especially knowing the way the IC works and knowing their capabilities and what they have on their end to assess based off of the classified, especially in the special access programs, we're seeing an increase, we're seeing these locations, something's happening. And what upsets me is

I'm not a threat narrative guy, and we talked about this too. I hate to say it, but I'm going to go there. You know, people talk about a blue beam and the hypothetical false flag narrative. I don't think that's going to happen, but of course I have a concern with it because I know this subject is true. I know these craft exists. I know this is happening. I know what they did to me. In the last year, they falsified evidence for me to go and get a death penalty for treason. They threw espionage against everybody else. Dave is talking about him getting hit with espionage. And they did that blatantly. Like, they called up journalists and were like, yo, we're falsifying evidence. We're going to throw this dude in jail and throw these other guys in there. I'm not saying it's going to happen.

my issue is I am searching for the truth like everybody else. I happen to know some truths. I'm trying to figure out like you are. And you and the rest of the people that watch this and the experiencers, all of us need to rely on each other and hold the government accountable. However, back to the future date. Lou is a very smart man. Lou is a very capable man and other people are very intelligent capable.

And I think the general consensus is overall, at some point, there will be a tipping point no matter what. No idea the date, no idea what it is. The general consensus is you cannot keep this a secret. And I don't know when that snaps. The other thing that it seems like OD and I, an arrow maybe tried to use against you, was this hieroglyphic thing that, may or may not have been drawn that Jeremy again discussed. Yeah. And hieroglyphics are a thing that show up on a lot of historical, you know, UFO crashes.

So like you have Lonnie Zamora in 64. You have, you know, Roswell in 47, of course. You have a lot of these rumors that, you know, hieroglyphics are on the crash. I think Kexburgh in 65 also were hieroglyphics as well. Yeah. Well, here we go. Again, back to the way my brain works. So indigenous Americans, hypothetically before Europeans came over and we became the society,

if I took a Chinese or Japanese, an Asian letter as a hieroglyph, and I gave it to a Native American, they would see it as a hieroglyph. Now, that doesn't mean it's extraterrestrial. It doesn't mean it's non-human. It just means we don't understand it at the time it's happening. Is there anything about this hypothetical hieroglyph that might hypothetically lead us to believe that this is non-human in origin and not just some ancient tradition? I want to take a moment to thank one of today's sponsors, Zbiotics. I've been using their pre-alcohol product for years.

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before my first drink of the night, and I wake up feeling totally normal the next morning. As you'll know, if you're older than, say, the age of 28 or 29, is not usual. So go to Zibiotics, dot com slash jesse to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use jesse at checkout. Zbiotics is also backed with a 100% money-back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money. No questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash jesse and use the code jesse at checkout for 15% off. As you know, we have a new starship. Of course, we have a healthcare center on board.

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And I Restore is kicking off their summer savings with some very big discounts. Right now you can get the Elite Plus Aluminah Face Mask bundle at an exclusive deal when you use code Jesse at irrestore.com. That's Jesse, J-E-S-S-E-R-Restore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Is there anything about this hypothetical hieroglyph that might hypothetically lead us to believe that this is a non-human in origin and not just some ancient tradition? Oh man, you're really putting me on this spot, Jesse. You don't have to answer. I plead the fifth.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. And so, okay, BAE also has a really interesting history. You know, there's a guy named Dr. Ron Evans there who talked about something called Project Greenglow. And he actually wrote a book about this. I'm familiar. So this is public.

So this is all new for me. Yeah, it's really wild. He's this British dude. And he talked about how they studied anti-gravity for like 10 years. And it was this big project. And maybe this is a cover. Maybe this isn't. But he said that they, you know, figured out some interesting frameworks.

But they kind of debunked everything. Yeah, I don't necessarily buy that. This goes back into America and you notice five eyes been pretty quiet. Japan's popping off almost as if Japan's seeing stuff recently in the last five years or so. I interviewed their former defense minister and he's pretty woke on UFOs. Good. He should be because I may or may not hypothetically, no. But, you know, people. Know something about Japan or hypothetically? Yeah, hypothetically. But, you know, you talk about BAE. People forget. wants to talk about Lockheed Skunkworks, BAE has Falcon Works. That is BA.E.'s version of Skunkworks. And BA.E. has joint ventures with Lockheed with skunk works on material sciences, on engineering, on engines, on all of it. Commander David Fraver, who is in the Nimitz incident,

he works at BA.E, I believe. I would, I am not aware of that. I believe you. For me, I don't want to blow up anybody's spot if that's true. But yeah. Well, if I had experienced what he experienced in 2004, you know what I would do? I'd be like, I want to figure out how this stuff works. I don't blame him. Again, I'm searching my own answers. As Jeremy said, Dylan's out here looking for answers. He's probably never going to get them.

Yeah. Yeah. Crazy topic. Okay, so you find out all of this stuff through people that, how much do you trust these people at PAE, who you're having conversations with? I trust them 100% and then this is where this gets really problematic. You're sure they weren't feeding you? I'm positive because the problem is when I became a whistleblower, went to Arrow and the IG, they confirmed it was true. And how did they confirm that it was true?

Because they wrote my memorandum for record. It's called an MFR. And what my triangle citing was listed as unclassified. Everything else they immediately threw into a special access program. And this goes back to Tim Phillips interview. Chris Sharp, which again, we all know it, but I'm going to cite what is publicly available. Tim Phillips himself said triangles are real. They want to know where they're coming from. And we can get into reverse engineering and hypothetically our own programs that have been

successful to some extent per James Lakatsky saying, yeah, we were semi-successful. But, uh... Explain who Tim Phillips is. Tim Phillips was the, basically the director who took over after a homeboy Kirkpatrick over there at Arrow. Okay. And Tim Phillips acknowledged, yes, Dylan drew two drawings, and yes, Arrow was told what to classify because of a security classification guide. I would love for that security classification guide to be released publicly on why they hypothetically classified drawings that I can't talk about. This is per Jeremy, per OD&I, committing a felony against people. But Arrow directly, indirectly acknowledged to me that this stuff was. was real on that side of the house.

What you got to remember is after I became a whistleblower in 23, I knew where to look already. And I began ripping data legally. I want to be clear there. Legally ripping everything as a CWMD expert, because these are considered a weapon of mass destruction. And I took it upon myself to serve the nation. And, uh,

what's the C stand for in CW? Counter weapons of mass destruction. So you had access to all this stuff. I had access to what I needed to outside of SAP. So when I was at Ditcher, I wasn't sap red. I was ACCM red. Yeah. So basically, this is wild.

So you get told some stuff by people you really trust. And then in 2023, you start to systematically corroborate all these things that they're telling you with accesses that you have. So you're looking. literally looking into databases, government databases, on UFO legacy crash retrieval programs. I don't want to say UFO legacy crash retrieval programs. I'm looking into databases and I know where to look and what the signatures are so I can deconstruct legacy doing taskers. And then I can begin to pull reports and briefings from Arrow and reports about baiting craft and how to take them down, which matches things I may or may not have test.

to prior that happened in the past. Can I take a best guess as to how that? You can do what you want, man. I'm going to sit here and do my best and I'll pull an organ and be like, oh, God, so go for it. I mean, my best guess. And this is, again, based on open source information in, again, Luz book and other things, baiting UFOs with nuclear material and then taking them down with directed energy and high-powered radar. That's a hell of a statement, Jesse.

I think you're a very intelligent young man. Well, it almost feels like you kind of ubiquitously known at this point. That's really wild. So you're looking at, wow. Okay. Well, imagine that was all turned over to ODNI, too. So what is happening right now? Why don't they do anything about any of this stuff?

I think my best guess is that they really don't want the crime aspect. I think that if we're going to get disclosure, it's going to be a, we can confirm or not alone, give immunity to the past and try their best to cover up all the BS that happened. Well, you must be of a split mind because you're probably aware that they are going to shovel all sorts of actually very unsavory things into, that's my, yeah. Quote unquote, UFO legacy programs including maybe, you know, MK Ultra mind control. I fully, you know, yes. Iran-Contra style stuff. Absolutely. You know, like no habeas corbus hits done on people, you know, all sorts of shit.

But simultaneously, you are one of the people that they are unfairly going after because you weren't implicated in any legacy efforts at all. So you must be of a split mind where you're like, I want to be off the hook and to be able to speak freely and not in all these kind of crazy hypotheticals. But you also want people to be held accountable. Yeah, well, I do. And again, this is, again, this is where this gets crazy is like. Look, I want the best for everybody. I love these people. I get it.

If you're a young woman or man in your 30s trying to have a family and you're making $120,000 in D.C., and your life revolves around clearances and doing jobs, you will never have that money. You'll never have a comparable job on the outside. I get it. But at the same time, I would wish these people would go and say, like, look, almost conscientious to its objector status,

which is like I don't want to impact somebody else. I cannot put my name to this. I would also say this, and this is where this gets real fun, is I have no idea how much I've been read into. Like I got my first read-ons were like eight hours. They gave us a stack of paper like this stick with sticky notes. It was like sign here, here, here.

They're like, you have 15 minutes to sign or you lose your job. I have, to this day, I've been read into so much stuff. I don't even know what I was read into. Right. So that's tricky, man. So you're probably, there are just landmines everywhere. And here we are now. This is why I said, you know what, you guys want to threaten me or treason and commit a felony

against me? You guys want to do this to me. I'm going to do my best. I love my country. I'm going to tell the truth. But I'm not playing the game. You're going to be the people's champion, especially after they hear the rest of this absurd story.

So you look into all this stuff. And then at what point do you experience back? backlash and reprisals. Well, when I was at BA.E, they were playing with my clearance, and it's called an admin withdrawal. One of the things I know people want to go and say is like, oh, of course, no, my clearance has never been revoked. I've never had a security violation. My clearance has always been intact. I've never failed a polygraph. Straight up, never, never been arrested. I've never had a thing done, not financial issues, none of it. When I was at BAE, it's called

an admin withdrawal. So for the people who are in the IC, they're going to hear this term, they're to laugh. It's called two years, use or lose. And what that means is that if you leave the IC, if you don't use your clearance within two years, your clearance goes into admin withdrawal. There is a way, and I know this because of my company, I worked for a DITRA for six years, awesome company, loved it, never had an issue. Great bosses for my company, great bosses for DITRA, great contract lead bosses, love them. I would shout them out, but I'm very careful about people, I know. So a way to get around this is what you do is OPM and the government and CIA, what you do is you put in a request for an updated SF86. And the way you do this is that is your security

background investigation. So you have to give over your financials, everyone you know, fill out all your forms, who you're married to, who you talk to, anybody overseas, which a lot of people in this space have violated who are currently working for government, and I'll leave it there. But what you do is you put that in, and then you submit it to the security manager. But here's how you get around, and this is how you destroy a security clearance. You submit it to the old SSO. And the reason why you do it is if you're not working for the company or the agency at the time you request it, you have 30 days to fill it out.

If you don't fill it out within 30 days, your security clearance is administratively withdrawn. and this just happened me in contact in the desert. I was using my security clearance last June. So my security clearance technically is supposed to be good. Right now is undefined. Somebody put in a request to my former company for an updated SF86. And because I don't work for them, that company does not owe it to me for me to fill it out. And now I'm in a status of undefined.

So I would need another company to pick me up, refill it all out, go through the paper, go through the finances, pay people to do it. And that is a way to screw with people in their careers. So you're in this kind of liminal limbo space where your security clearance is technically good, but de facto, it doesn't work. It's bad. And as a result of that, you can't pursue other professional opportunities. You're kind of stuck at BAA. At that point in time in 2018, yes. So what they did is they've disappeared me. It's currently happening in now again. And this goes back, to when you asked me the question about when did I start to see this. The problem is, is when I was at BAE between 2015 and 2018, they were playing this game. I worked for DITRA, January, 2019, until

2024, summer 24, awesome, love them, great people, that mission was awesome. I am so upset that that job, that contract ended. Once that contract ended in 2024, that's when all these games began again. All of these games with me began again. Going into polygraphs and they're asking me to disclose classified that I testified to with the IG, playing games with my clearance, playing games with my job

wrecks. Why do you think? Because you experienced all this stuff like from 2015 to 2018 at B.A.E. You're learning all this sensitive UFO stuff. Yeah, maybe you're looking into databases later. But like, you

haven't done anything. Treasonous with any of this information. And then after you serve for five years on the defense threat reduction agency around counter WMD stuff, and you do that presumably pretty effectively because you do it for five years, at the end of that,

they're still worried that you're a liability. I don't understand that. Well, the problem is, is that last year is when I became a whistleblower. I went to the IGA, I went to Arrow, I went to Congress. Okay. So I came forward.

Why did you decide to do that? Because I had heard from people, who were whistleblowers went forward, and this goes back to Dave and rest in peace and Matthew Sullivan, and I'm so sorry for his family. Like, this goes back to Vanguard. I wish nothing but the best for his loved ones. Like, I don't like this stuff,

but why I decided to come forward was because people who were whistleblowers and affiliated with the UAP Task Force made a comment and said people's lives were in danger, and one of the people who was 100% read in and had their career destroyed two weeks prior got into another mess related to this

as I interpreted it. I came forward because I wanted to save lives. I didn't give a shit about UFOs. So you were inspired by the unfair retributions being hurled against current whistleblowers and you wanted to kind of jump in. That and then also like I have a thing, and we talked about this, you know, I'm a Catholic. It doesn't mean all other religions

are wrong. I just know for me it's right. I'm going to have to answer for everything when I pass away. And I can't go and die and look God in the eyes and say like, hey, you know this shit is real to some extent. What did you do? Because if you would have said it, then you could have saved the life. That's why. Was there any particular testimony that kind of resonated with you most, where you were were you listening to a particular speech or congressional testimony? This was all closed door behind government and classification people who 100% were whistleblowers. I knew they had issues, like I said, and weaponized. I knew that there was some stuff they weren't telling the truth on.

I didn't want to risk it. And I know what I went through. I know what the specific individual who was 100% read in, hands on, what they went through wall in government and then how they ended up with me bumping into these programs under my job at BAE, I didn't want to risk it because I know it. I mean, like break into the house, leaving mail on the table, taking computers, that whole thing. Wait, so that was happening to you. That was happening to the people I knew who were in Legacy back at BAE in 2018. Got it. And so you were almost worried about getting grouped in with them as well? Not just, well, a little bit.

It was mainly they had just lost their job two weeks prior in 2023. And I heard through the grapevine that that had happened. I know they were in legacy. I know it was done to them. I know their job was taken from them. They lost their job two weeks prior. And I get told people are in danger currently who worked in it. Got it.

And then you were worried about getting lumped? There you go. And did you worry at all that the searches you made in 20, were linked with any of the things that they faced? No, because I've always assumed, and this goes back to OD and I when they duplicated my phone. I, you know, behind the scenes, all of us just assume that all of us are tapped, but like, I know I'm tapped.

I mean, they duplicated my phone. I have always told people like, look, if you're talking to me, I will never say a word. I'm not recording. I'm not screenshoting. But this conversation, to be fully transparent, is not private because somebody else is listening to a third party. I understand that sounds paranoid, but it's not. It's real. We know people. We know people that absolutely happened to, provably. But yeah. Can you say anything more about that? I don't want to. Okay. It may go back to people I talked about under oath in front of Congress and how much I love them and care about them and how great of a person they are. I'll leave it there. Okay. So you're seeing,

retributions against these people who you were having conversations with in the 2015 to 2018 time range in 2023-ish. And so you start to get nervous. And then also you're inspired by these other whistleblowers who've come out, people like David Grush, and you're like, I want to throw my hat in the ring. Yeah. Well, so at that point, Dave had, I never talked to Dave. That's the other irony is the, I only knew one person who was involved in this. Now, I knew that this whole thing existed, but you got to remember as where I'm at is so closed off from the rest of the I see. I am in my own little bubble, special access program, like, different world. And even at Ditcher, it's a different world. So why do you think they're going to lump you in automatically?

Like, why do you think they're going to show up at your house? So it wasn't that. It was the person I, one of the people I know who were legacy lost their job. And they were working in programs that are affiliated with it. And I thought that they may have been a whistleblower, so I wanted to make sure I came forward to basically protect them. Got it. Got it. And did that person end up coming forward, or no? Plea the fifth. Okay. Fair enough. So you come out, and who do you go to first? The person who made the comment that people's lives were in danger, I called them. I said, look, I know you have, I don't want to call it misrepresented. You have been a bit of a big fish story.

You know what that means? Like, oh, I caught a bass that was this size and you tell everybody else it was this size. Kind of extrapolating the truth. I was like, look, I know, I know this has happened. It's no fault of your own. But if people's lives are in danger, don't fuck with me, considering what I did for a living, which we kind of talked about all right. I don't play with people's lives.

I said, you know, if you are telling me the truth, people's lives are in danger, do not lie to me because you will destroy my life, my family's life, my friend's lives. If people's lives are actually in danger, I need to immediately talk to somebody who can do something about it. And I was on the phone with this person for about an hour and I decided, you know what? on the off chance that is true, I got to do something. And they had connected me with Congress. And that's March 3rd. I talked with Congress two or three days prior. In March 3rd, I was in a skiff with Congress staffers. Okay. And you're telling these congressional staffers almost everything you know about 60, 70, I told them what they needed to confirm that there was a program. It existed. Some bad stuff happened that this stuff is real. Yes. It's interesting because when you speak to these staffers, they are just super high conviction that, you know, again, it's like either there's some ridiculous, you know, acting academy on the inside of the government or it's like, you know, this is just real. It's just real. That's so wild. Okay. So you tell these congressional staffers and then what's the next step? Are they like, thank you for the information and then we'll look into it or like what happens? I go in there. I tell them. I'm like, look. that's a whole other story that one day I'll tell. I mean, I was, I was nervous, I was shaking,

obviously with what I've been through. I don't trust people. I'm like, I have to do this. I don't want somebody to die. Um, but, uh, about, did you ever speak to Kirk McConnell by any chance? You don't have to say. I plead the fifth. Okay. It's interesting because he, he literally said on my show, some of these guys come in, they're extremely earnest. They have credible backgrounds. And they're nervous and they're shaking. And it was almost in some cases palpable. I can recall an instance where one source was visibly shaking. I mean, physically so stressed.

And I'm sure you are not alone in that. Hypothetically, you guys spoke. But that's why I remembered. I think. And he was a, he's a. a Senate intelligence community. He was. Kirk is an intelligent man.

Kirk has been around the block, and I think Kirk ended up where he's at, not because it isn't true. I think Kirk knows what's going on. Yeah. He knows what's going on. He worked for Senator Jack Reed, and Jack Reed's mentor is a guy, or actually the person who preceded Jack Reed was Claiborne Pell. Claiborne Pell was this senator who was long into you.

He's from Delaware, both of them were. And, you know, obsessed with, with UFOs. And he was Biden's mentor, which I find fascinating. So there's this like weird Biden UFO connection. And then back to 2023, who was president when we were going through the IG and all these games are, I digress. Digress. No comment. Okay.

So you're going to Congress, maybe the Senate, and you are spilling your guts. And then what do they say? Do they say we're going to, we're going to, we're going to. help you. We're going to follow up on this? Or what happens? I go and tell them. I'm like, yo, this is what's going on. I clearly said enough because they already knew certain things specifically about what I was saying and the questions they asked and their responses were very telling. They knew some of the stuff I was saying. And they hit me up and they're like, yo, did you go to Arrow? It's like, no. I don't know how to

contact Arrow. Is that what you need me to do? So they got me touching Arrow. And I, I went to Arrow. That was the end of March. And Arrow is the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, and it is now kind of patently obvious that the first iteration of this under Sean Kirkpatrick was literally a fly trap for, you know, UFO information, probably had legacy ties. They would systematically lure in people like yourself who had information. They would collect all the information, often not even record the conversation, just kind of use it for, they didn't record yours. No. There you go. And then sometimes my guess is they might have destroyed evidence in certain cases

because I've had a couple of people tell me they spoke to them and their emails were deleted after the fact and weird things happened with that. I believe that. I mean, luckily for me, luckily for me going through what I've been through and having dealt with this across government, I don't trust people. So I save everything. So when I got an email telling me, me, hey, we know this is wrong, correct it from Arrow. I saved that document and I made sure that was secured legally and readily available at phone call request. If you have TSSCI, I will send everything over to you with everything, but that doesn't surprise me what you said. That's awesome. So you recorded your conversation. I kept everything, Jesse, and this goes back to ODNI. ODI and I got caught red-handed lying.

And how so? So Arrow had sent over a false MFR, said that was the true one. What's an MFR? Memorandum for record. It was supposed to be their version of what I told them. They acknowledged to me an email that it was wrong. They told me to write the corrections. This goes into the staffer they targeted.

I saved that. I saved the image. I saved every, I saved private conversations with people. But I made the corrections, and I saved my email back to them with confirmation saying they received it. When I went to ODNI under Kozlowski, and I'm not trying to throw him under the bus, I'm just telling you these are the facts. Arrow is under Kozlowski. Right now. When I went to ODNI, September 10th of 2025, Kozlowski was director.

Per OD&I dig, Kozlowski sent my MFR, my legal signed document, to OD and I saying this is what I said, and they sent the false report. And luckily, I saved it. So I can't tell you Arrow and Kozlowski lied. I can't tell you ODNI lied. So Arrow sent an entirely different report than the one that you... They sent the one that they knew was false. And I had the true one. So do you have any sense of the difference between the false and the drone? I do. Because I had to make the corrections. I had to sign it. I sent it back. I made the correct. Corrections, yes, I do. So what were the falsities included in this?

I don't want to get into specifics because it reveals people, specific people. That was my concern. And then it also exposes staffers. It exposes very specific things. And then this gets into OD&I dig calling Jeremy saying I made a false drawing that never happened. That the report itself contradicts what OD and I was trying to get me on for treason. It's a whole thing. So did they, they included D&I.

details that you didn't include. 100%, yes. And then those details, did they happen to line up with things that you actually experienced? No. They literally just inserted stuff. They did. And that's why they call me and said, hey, Dylan, you need to make the corrections. And what they were doing was trying to get me to give more information about the people I knew.

They're fishing. Yes, 100%. Jesus Christ, man. That is dark. I know. That's why I call Congress. I was like, yo, they're coming after you. And oh, by the way, I probably need an attorney.

because this is some messed up stuff. Have you ever, because Loski seems like a reasonable guy? Maybe he is. I never talked to him. Just like Kirkpatrick, Kirkpatrick want to meet with me. When I got through with it, the people I met with, and I think the lieutenant colonel, I think he's a good dude. I talked with him on the phone, and him and I had a long conversation about this, and they

know the truth, Jesse. At this, behind the scenes, people know the truth. But they wanted me to go and talk to Kirkpatrick, and Kirk Patrick ducked me. You talk to me. It's so weird. I mean, I've interviewed now so many people like yourself and will like talk for hours on end and like, you know, I'm getting a sanitized version of the testimony that Arrow is getting and wrapped up in hypotheticals and all sorts of thing. And then so and I'm high conviction and what you're saying, you know, and then you have this long conversation with them. You give them everything.

And then they insert details and give it to the ODNI and then the ODNI. They have treason. So here we go. So to be clear, I'll say it this way. They wanted me to name the people that I knew that were working on the program. I refused to do it and they wanted the name of the program. I refused to do it because I didn't want to put that person in danger going back to why I went to Congress because I thought their life was in danger.

That's the problem. They wanted the people and they wanted the name. And if you are in these programs, those names change so many months. And that's how you can narrow down who spoke. So why should anybody trust Arrow on a go forward basis? Maybe they're doing better now, but the problem is, and this is my big thing. Back to what we're talking about as me being here is not just Vanguard, but I want ODNI held accountable. I want to know why Kozwaski and Arrow sent a false report to ODNI.

I want to know why apparently per ODNI, Arrow falsified evidence against me. That is, think about that, Jesse. remove UFOs. We talked about this. Remove UFOs. You have a disabled veteran with a clearance, with polygraph, and the lead intelligence agency falsified evidence against me for treason, which is a death penalty. That's where we're at right now. Can you say the specifics of how they falsified the evidence? Jeremy spoke about it. They created a fake force drawing, and I have the text messages, and so does multiple. people have all the evidence to prove this happened, and I called out ODNI. Because you drew things for them, and they created another...

That per ODNI, per dig, who leaked classified information and medical records to journalist Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, per them. Per the guy who called him committing a felony, he said, I created a forced drawing. I never created it. And I said, I want to come in and see it. And I was ghosted. So crazy, man. And here's a kicker.

Ready? That fourth drawing, they're claiming I made, the problem is, is, and I have it, the fourth drawing they're claiming I made contradicts what is in the Arrow report, and I called him out on and said, you realize you're contradicting yourself. Not only did I not make a fort drawing,

by definition and classification, you are literally admitting to me right now. This never happened, because verbally in the classification guidance and at the beginning of paragraphs you'll have like secret no form t s no foreign what they said i made the foredrawing of is in writing in text not classified what they were claiming i drew well there you go so you have evidence that not only are they you know acting in bad faith but they're incompetent and um i mean the other thing that's so crazy about this. And again, this is coming from Jeremy, is he's talking about them, you know, saying that like a hieroglyphic could possibly be classified, which is like, how could you ever, you know, say that somebody's committing treason for drawing a hieroglyphic while simultaneously saying that the whole UFO program is fake? Where would the hieroglyphic be?

Hypothetically, that is per Jeremy with what was leaked to him illegally. by OD and I dig. I can't tell you if that's true. What I'll tell you is back to Tim Phillips saying Dylan drew two drawings and there was a classification guidance and it was wrapped into a special access program, where's the security classification guide

to hypothetically classify that if it was true? These are the questions people should be asking our government. Yeah, that's absolutely... Hypothetically class... Yeah, you know, classifying a hieroglyphic while simultaneously saying all of this stuff is fake, just feels like you are really talking out of the, you know,

two sides of your mouth there. It's so crazy. Yeah, right. It's crazy. And then the other sort of interesting thing is Jeremy brought up this guy, Chuck McCullough in your guys' interview. People don't know that Chuck McCullough used to be the intelligence community inspector general of the United States.

And so the fact that he's, you know, spoken at Seoul and he's getting involved in UFO stuff, in helping, you know, Jeremy and George out in certain situations, obviously, you know, that shows that he's confident that this whole subject is real. Why would he move from, you know, multi, many years at the NSA, you know, many years, you know, at the highest levels of intelligence to, you know, representing these guys when it comes to the UFO topic, if he thought that this was all fake? Yeah, I fully agree. And then right back to what Jeremy said with my interview when all these felonies were committed against whistleblowers in the last year, when Chuck McCullough is on the phone with you and saying, well, they did it. The whistleblowers didn't. Legally, you are allowed to say

this. What does that say? What does that say about our nation? This is why, like, everybody wants to make this about extraterrestrials. This isn't extraterrestrials. It never was about extraterrestrials. This is about the foundation of our Constitution. It's about both. True. Valid. Valid. I have extraterrestrials loosely. Yeah, well, I mean, the problem, I think, with the whole quote-unquote extraterrestrials thing is it's what Arrow uses as like a straw man sort of fall guy. When you use the word extraterrestrial, that's an analytical overlay. It's a conclusion that you're making based on an underlying data set, which is actually, you know, hard to jump to conclusions on. We don't have definitive evidence that they're from other planets, but we have definitive evidence that we didn't create these anomalous materials.

You know, you have, again, maybe some biologics, all these things. fully agreed and you notice our government has never denied that second portion. They have only denied we have no evidence of extraterrestrials. Yes. Okay, so you got really messed with by Arrow and by, you know, ODNI. I want to talk about this next saga of you're going to the VA. That goes all the way back to Langley and that goes back to when I was working at VA. Okay, so let's hear about this.

You know, like I said, they were doing some. really weird stuff. I turned over the... Like mind control stuff? I don't want to say mind control. I want to be, again, to be fair. What happened to you? I mean, a lot of stuff.

Basically, the easiest way to say it with them is I got out of the Air Force and I witnessed a suicide. Dude drowned, multiple witnesses. I have the police report. I can literally pull out my phone, show you, I sent it to ODNI with the police report. I have the voicemail from the police on my phone. I can play it for you. you. I have the medical records. But basically what had happened was I got out of the military and the VA denied I ever did the job I did and said, none of this ever happened, Dylan. You never did the

job you did, which contradicts my EPR because I had my enlisted performance review proving I was doing the job I was doing. The VA said I made that up too. And that's all my medical records. Provable. But long story short, witnesses suicide, police came, Pittsburgh search and rescue came, they had to pull the body out of the river, nightmare, dude. But they had denied all of it happening. And then while I'm at the VA, they tell me, oh, you need to go into this PTSD program, which I'm not allowed to go. I'm not allowed to collect. So the way the VA works is if you have a disability, you have a financial and medical incentive to help you with it. So the VA is treating me for it while also denying me the medical and financial aspect of it. You have a financial

aspect of it. And they put me in this weird program back in 2016, 2017, where they're flashing images and air horns. I'm counting backwards from 100 by seven, wild stuff, dude. To this day, I still don't know what it was about. But just that crap. And my medical records is just full of insane stuff. And I have all of them. Doctors have quit over it. I know one of the doctors filed a complaint. He was told to leave. This insane stuff. What sort of testing are they doing on you? So at that point in time in 2016, 2017, I would go in and get hooked up to a pressure cuff. It was a polygraph. They would put the brain things on my brain, put me up to a pressure cuff, heartbeat, it was a polygraph. And then I would sit in a room in the back. There was the female doctor who was

CIA. She was confirmed CIA. And then they had to do with an air horn who claimed you was an old retired Army Ranger. How do you know she was CIA? She admitted it to me. Okay. She actually, how I know is because she knew what I was doing for BAE and knew specifically where I worked and told me. Whoa.

So while that's happening, I'm in there and they're just, for an hour a day, I have to go in twice a week and I get hooked up to this polygraph machine and there's a computer and they're just flashing images. It's like a butterfly, kid with a gun, car explosion, bunny rabbit. I have to count backwards from 100 by 7 and if I went 193, 86, instead of saying 7978, the air horn would go off and I would have to restart and they would restart the flashing images. What? Dude, I swear to God. weird. Again, I don't know. What else? What are other examples? That's insane. I mean, that's the biggest one. And then they put me on those meds that made me suicidal. And that's why my first doctor quit. The psychiatrist quit. So they put you on meds that you're convinced.

I know for, 100% it is documented. That is why the doctor quit. This is why I stopped going to the VA. What was the medication? Some SSRIs. And do you think that that was intended? I do, yes. Because SSRI is, look, I'm very anti-SSSR myself, but I know people who are like, it helped me all the power to all the power. So all I'm saying is how do you know that the intention? Because I never had a suicidal thought in my life. And then all of a sudden after like two months of taking them, I would wake up in the middle and night and be like, oh, like you know how you're thirsty?

This is how I explained it. Like you wake up and you're thirsty or you need to go to the bathroom. I had a physical response after two months of taking them, having never had this in my life and my physical response was commit suicide. Was this a generic SSRI or was it some unique? If you want an answer to it, I'll pull my medical records. I will tell you all the meds I've been on. Well, I'm just, I'm curious as to how intentional that was,

because I do think that can be a side effect, you know, the SSRI thing. They admitted it. And then I'm wondering, you know, if they were trying to mess with you and that was a big part of messing with you, or if SSRIs just generally make you more impressionable. and kind of softer and placate you. Could, but again, look at this in context of everything that's happening. I'm working with BAE with a full scope, Polly, doing the job I'm doing at BAE at the location I'm doing it.

I'm in this weird-ass program. They're putting me on these meds or denying I ever did the job. Did you say you were depressed? Like, why did they give you the SSRI at all? Because they said I have PTSD, but they said I have PTSD for a job that they're claiming I never did. That's the problem. That whole thing.

It's all in my medical records. So they claimed you didn't do the drone operator job? They claim that I was. They claim that I never did imagery for drones with the Air Force. Why were they claiming that? The fuck if I know, Jesse. This is my problem. They were like gaslighting you, saying you have PTSD, take this pill.

And go into this weird ass program, yes. And what was the program? That this whole thing with these flashing images, MRIs constantly all of it. And meanwhile, they're denying all of my VA benefits. What else do you remember from that MRIs? Just me. I'm being told by the doctors, hey, we messed up, but you have to do all this to get your benefits. And, oh, you bought a house.

If you don't do it, we're going to withdraw your VA benefits for your home loan. And I'm just going through it while working for the government doing everything I'm due, trusting the system. So counting backwards from 100 going by 7 each time and having images flashing in front of you is weird. And I don't quite understand how you justify that in some conventional medical, you know, this is some sort of check. up context. So what else did you experience? I mean, that was it, man. Like, they put me in these weird programs. They were constantly having go and get MRIs. They were constantly having me meet with a therapist. Were they giving you any sort of extra sensory perception or pre-sentiment tests? Like what's under this card? No. Okay. Not at all. Like that. No. But they were,

there were weird experiments being done. There, that whole thing is odd because this goes back to intent. If you're going to put me in a treatment program, then you have to acknowledge that I need the treatment, meaning I have it. And they were denying that I had it. So why I'm in a treatment program when you're saying it doesn't exist. Any other details you remember from that?

No, it was just, I'm going up there working for BAE, doing all this crazy shit, and everybody's like, you don't exist, none of this happened. But you need to come here, we'll pull your house loan, and you'll never get your benefits in treatment. It was bananas, dude.

So strange. Do you look back at that period and think or speculate about some ulterior motive behind that medical examination? I mean, I do because I learned enough now. But again, here's the irony is going back to this whole subject. Well, what do you think it was? I plead the fifth. I don't want to get into it because I know enough and then we're going to get into people's names and programs and things that are out there. But do you think it was like adjacent to something that we all know? Like MK Ultra, like some mind control. I think it was adjacent to something that our government has been studying, and this goes back to me having an out-processed with the Navy

and then talking about my UFO experience at Langley. Whatever that all is, it was all connected. No, I'm not saying they did it because of it. I know it was connected. There's no doubt of my mind. So you think they were systematically testing experiencers? Well, that's document. You have the leaked phone call with Green and Kay Randall, what's her name?

K. Randall May. K. Randall, you have that leaked phone call where they are literally saying we are testing veterans, military government officials who have had experiences and in their own words, hybrids. I want to be clear. This is not me saying it. That is them saying it. In 2017, while I'm going through this, that's happening. I want to be very clear and very fair.

I'm not saying everything I encountered is because of my citing, but everything I encounter it happened and kit green ran the cia's weird desk and uh it's very sort of mysterious him and put off in a homeboy over in israel the remote viewer dude they're all referencing that leak phone call yeah who's the in israel the remote viewer not erie gellar yore yeah they name him by name they want to put him in MRIs they want a remote view him while he's in the MRIs all of it and do you know that this turned into some sort of formal program? I'm no idea. No idea. Interesting. Hmm. Yeah. Crazy. Did you ever have any contact with that CIA doctor after that?

No, in fact, well, this goes back after I left the IG and now right back to Vanguard again. When the IG stuff went down, I had called the staffer, the attorney. I was like, dude, you got to get us help. This is insane. Like, you're telling me this is all true that everything that happened that I said is true. I'm never allowed to talk about my childhood. Like, what am I supposed to do with my life? And they had said, well, you know, Dylan, you have VA benefits, go up there and talk to them. And I was like, I'm not going to the doctors who did this to me. They still work there. I'm not doing it. Um, so basically I take no meds. I use nicotine and I do my own thing. I don't do drugs. I don't even take CBD. I take nothing. And luckily, I have good friends

like you and Jeremy and George and other people I met with Oregon and contact and the other whistleblowers. And we're all kind of using each other as therapists to get through this until disclosure happens and we get justice. But you've experienced all sorts of targeting and reprisals beyond, you know, even just that. Your break lines were cut and you've experienced... So per the police, stalking not so much, but per the police, yes, my brake lines were cut. 100%. And what happened there? Nothing.

I was out. It was right after I left BAE. I got a phone call from somebody I worked with at BAE, invited me out. He disappeared for an hour. He comes back and he's like, hey, I'm going to go. You want to go? I get in my car, my car wrecks. I have a police investigation.

I call them. I'm like, come pick me up, do a breathalyzer, blood work me. I go through the whole process. they come back three days later and they're like, yo, your break lines were cut. It happened. Do you have like a dead man switch given all the information you have? I said it in weaponize.

I told the very first conversation I had with Jeremy, I said, Jeremy, I don't know you, you don't know me. I'm going to go become a congressional whistleblower if anything happens to me. I will have my dead man switch triggered. I'm telling you it's true. Yeah, of course I do. Do you think that in UFO legacy context, people can call in craft with their minds? I think that, okay, so now we're going to get into the fun hypotheticals.

I do believe remote viewings, true. I do believe in prophetic dreams. I do believe in consciousness projection. You know, we talk about this. Everybody who knows me knows why I avoid the will. And the reason why I really avoid the woo is because I'm already fighting enough on stuff I've already proved behind the scenes. Provable.

Yeah, of course, I believe that's true. The problem I have is I think people have pushed best what is true to something that isn't so they can diminish what the truth is. Interesting. Yeah, so there are ways to stigmatize the truth by getting... Exactly. That's a sci-off. 100%.

But do you think people can call in UFOs with their mind? I think they can connect to them, absolutely. Yeah. My issue is that I think you can connect to them. I think it's true. But my issue is if you can connect to them and communicate to them, bring them within 50 feet, have them land. Like, do that. Instead of having lights 200 miles out, bring them in.

If you're communicating, if you're in touch with source and all this new age stuff, bring them in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah, yeah. Do you think what you saw was non-human or ours? I know for a fact it was not human-made and not ours. How do you know for a fact?

Because Arrow proved it when they listed it as unclassified and then classified the other drawings dealing with unidentified unknown origin drawings and technologies. If it was ours, they would have classified it and they didn't. Okay, yeah, fair enough. And even if you don't trust them and you think they're bad faith actors, they still would classify. They would have had to. Here we go back to intent.

Yeah. I view everything from intent. Mm-hmm. Why go and classify the other stuff and not classify that? Yeah, no, it doesn't make sense. There we go. I mean, unless it was like, we, they know that they've lost all trust.

And so the 4D chess game would be to not classify it because they'd know that we'd talk about it. As if it was, you know, definitely not human when in fact it was ours. Here we go. Back to earlier. And when you were talking about 4K videos and bodies and everything, I know for a, fact there are cell phone videos of triangles undeniable end of discussion ends all conversation the reports are there it is there so they're not that they won't release those videos sure got it so you get what i'm saying yeah yeah so those inherently if and you saw one of those they would

have to be classified and now now you get into the fun too which is hypothetically uh we have imagery satellites around the world hypothetically we're seeing other countries with the same stuff over their sites. Again, I know. Arrow would have, if I walked in there and started talking about a 9th gen airplane that's being tested, they would classify immediately.

This goes back to by law, Arrow had no original classification authority. They had to go to the IC and go to the private companies and say, hey, this is what they said, what is the classification per your guidance? So, all of those places

based off of my testimony, would have been documented by them with a classification guidance saying that was one of orbs classify it. It didn't do it. Do you think there are any non-governmental, transnational organizations that deal with UFOs you deal with? 100. Yes.

I do. And do you have any sense of who these organizations are? I have ideas, but I don't want to get into it. Again, it's hypotheses. Yeah. You know, I'm very, like I keep saying, I'm looking at this from a fact perspective, trying to find answers myself. but I think all of us would be naive, like we talked about last night,

which is there has to be some type of agreement minimally globally, if not with whatever we're encountering, because China and Russia could blow up America's spot. We talk about Operation Midnight Climax, we talk about all this. You look at social media manipulation. China or Russia could literally embarrass the U.S. with what they know on this, and they don't do it. So now back to intent, why?

So there has to be some type of transnational agreements organizations. Has to be. And some kind of agreement between all terrestrial governments amongst themselves and maybe with the non-human intelligence as well. First section I fully agree with. Second section, I'm 99.9% sure. I don't want to go there because I can't tell you it's 100% true. I'm pretty sure it's true, man.

You said you think that UFO abductions alien experiences, you know, people kind of being able to see beyond the veil a little bit and make contact runs in families. Yeah, genetics. I do believe that. But here we go. I'm glad you bring up this back to the Kona Blue documents. So when were the Kona Blue documents made originally, not the E class? What was that 10 years ago? She has and I thought it was later earlier than that. Okay. No, that makes it even better. Yeah. Okay. So hypothetically, back to Kona Blue and remote viewing and all this stuff. In those documents, the United States government is admitting they have the capability to give you false memories, mess with your brain, make you do things.

And that's without drugs. They're saying the capability is now presently available, not just for the U.S., but for others. And I hate to break it to people. The technology that we're all using the public sector, that's been done years ago in the IC, DARPA, IARPA, the rest of them. One of the things, again, that I'm trying to figure out is if you have an experience, and this goes back to discernment and back to consciousness, well, hypothetically, if the CIA is able to manipulate your brain while you're sleeping and play with your brain, how do you know it's the CIA and not an NIH? And oh, by the way, Russia and China are now able to do it. And oh, by the way, this was a private company. How do you go and unpack that?

Yeah, it's an extremely complicated topic because you have three known things that humans have looked into. Anti-gravity propulsion or gravity manipulation, whatever you want to call it, MK Ultra or mind control. And then the third thing would be directed energy. Yep. And you have all these things, and all of these things are really hard to attribute in a terrestrial context. you know, only up until the last couple of years has the intelligence community, people from the CIA and NSA started to say that Russia and microwave weaponry is responsible for this Havana syndrome and vestibular destabilization that a lot of, you know, diplomats have experienced all over the world. You have a really interesting book called The Controllers by a guy named Martin Cannon. He talks about how M.K. Ultra was used or the alien abduction thing was used.

used as a smokescreen for MK Ultra. I believe that. And so I'm sure that, you know, and that doesn't make the abduction thing not true. You know, in fact, it makes it more likely that there is an underlying reality to that. And that's why it's a good smokescreen in certain contexts. And then you have anti-gravity, you know, propulsion, you know, people like Thomas Townsend Brown, who I'm as high conviction in anything when it comes to this story. And it seems like that's how the crafts fly. So it's an extremely convoluted and complicated landscape.

where you never know what you're looking at. Yeah, I, you know, I think, you know, let's have the fun. We talked about the car scenario. The first conversation I had with you was about this. You and I went over this. I was like, Jesse, I think it's everything and stuff we still don't understand or know. Like, all of this can be true, and I believe it all is true. And the problem is, is that my opinion is, the reason they're keeping this is a secret

is it because so criminal, so messed up, so much money. Yeah. It is embarrassing. And then this goes back to legalities, right? Back to OD and I and what they did to us. Those are felonies. But by law, you have executive orders. I wish I could name it off the top of my head right now. But I had to do security. Everybody in the intelligence community has to do training every year on the classified system. And the law literally is you cannot classify information for embarrassment, criminal activity, and financials. They're doing it. It's happening. So I brought this up. George Knapp, under oath in front of Congress, which can be used as evidence with the Securities Exchange Commission, literally said, Lockheed Martin had a craft they were going to sell it to Bigelow, and Glenn Gaffney with the CI stepped in. I have confirmed on the record that Robert Bigelow and a trusted colleague from OSAP met with and negotiated with senior executives at Lockheed Martin and hammered out a deal wherein Bigelow's company, Bass, would receive a quantitative. of unusual material that had been stashed away and protected at a facility in California. That material was not made here.

Are any of you willing to name specific gatekeepers within the root cell of the UAPSAP Federation? I have a name for you. Go ahead. Glenn Gaffney, CIA. Glenn Gaffney, CIA. Where are the attorneys to sue Lockheed Morton with the Securities Exchange Commission? I don't know. Okay, so now here we go.

Even if the attorney's going sue and you want to say it's a classified law, well, guess what? You just admitted they had a craft. Right. So where is it? Where is everybody in this? You want a whistleblowers. We came out. We stuck our necks out.

We threw caution to the wind in service for God family country. And here we are. Dave's hands are tied behind his backup in Congress. Burleson and Luna and Moskowitz. Everybody's trying to do this. Where is everybody? Well, that's what strikes me most about this whole topic is it almost feels like there's like a paranormal or parapsychological control mechanism around not letting this stuff out. Because if you think about it, if the claim is that, you know, the U.S. government has a multi-generational crash retrieval program.

We have saucers or if not saucers, parts of saucers and other, you know, geometries, triangles or whatever, in hangers, bodies, you know, all these things, right? then the interesting question to me is like, how come very few smoking guns end up rising to the top in the age of social media and smartphones in the open source context? And there are easy answers to that where it's like, okay, only a few crashes have happened. It really seems like it's this directed energy plus nuclear thing. And so it's all kind of, you know, concentrated in certain areas. but I think there are crashes outside of that as well. And like, so, so you get into this weird thing where it's like, are the, is the non-human intelligence in control of the cover up too?

My opinion? Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. Have you ever talked to anybody in incredible position in the government who seems to have hinted that humans aren't in charge? The ICIG did it. What did they say?

I want to respect them. Okay. The IG did it with me. So the intelligence community inspector general told you that humans are not in charge. They extremely hinted at it, yes. Holy shit. That is crazy. They hinted at it, yes.

That is insane. That's insane. And then you think of the fact that, you know, Chuck McCullough is involved in this topic and really helping out on the whistleblower side. And he was the first intelligence community inspector general. Chuck is a beast. And I think we talked about this last night. You know, I have nothing but respect for everybody who gives a damn about our nation and who cares to serve it. God family country. Dude, that is wild that the intelligence community inspector general in this role is basically the judiciary for the intelligence committee, right? They are, but keep in mind. Yeah. That's the IC, not the CIA, not DOA. Okay. I remember those are separate IGs just like the DOD IG is separate. So what would the IC be privy to that might allow them to say with authority that humans aren't in charge of the government?

Again, I want to be very careful and very respectful. This goes back if you listen to the weapon. See, again, Jeremy and George and I and Matt, all of us, all of us have said things and laid groundwork for years to come because we have no idea. We could die tomorrow. So we're all trying to get this out and have a baseline and be respectful and not go crazy. like I'm partying with aliens in Washington, D.C. crap. What I said and weaponized was you can tell somebody knows something based on the questions they ask you. You respond and the next question they ask you is very telling.

So hypothetically, Jesse, let's say, let's say you asked me a question and I say, yeah, I've seen gray beings, traditional grays. If I said that to you, your next question is be like, when, where, how? hypothetically speaking, let's say I say that and your next question is, well, where did they come from? And then I respond, well, you know, I don't have any answer. I think they've been here a long time. And the very next statement is, well, who do you think is running the show? Hypothetically, let's say that happened. That's wild. That is so crazy.

And it's especially crazy given that, you know, David Grush gave them all sorts of documents. from his experience on the UAP task force where he looked comprehensively. With 40 witnesses. Let's be clearer. Dave brought 40 witnesses who were out in the program. And Matt and I were not a part of that. Lou was not a part of that to the best of my knowledge. Stratton, Lekatsky, this whole list.

And they called his complaint urgent, incredible. They did. And so they're calling his complaint urgent incredible. They're telling hypothetically, they're saying, who do you think is running the show, which is wild. This brings me to another question. You're close with Matthew Brown. I am.

I love Matt. Who's really interesting, fascinating case and seems like a very deep thinker. And another guy who's very earnest who got totally screwed with and there are all sorts of reprisals, things I think at one point people called him super anti-Semitic,

like one of these government agents. ODI and I did. Okay, so they called him Odie and I dig again. And he said something very interesting on weaponized. He said that humans are a resource. Well, this gets into religion and theology. So I want to be very, you know, we talked about this. I want to, but do you have any evidence to believe that humans might be a resource? I don't, but this goes. So again, you want to have fun? Let's have some fun what we talked about. So let's go here. We brought up, I brought up the hypothetical. Again, I'm not saying this is

true and this isn't like hypothetically. This is a real hypothetical. Let's say that you and I have soul, we die, and based off of current humanity, you have Neurlink, you have CRISPR, you have all of these technologies. Like we discussed, 100 years ago, humans compared to today are the same. In 100 years, you can genetically modify a human. It would be 190 IQ, 6'7, dunking a basketball, that's 12 feet high, connected to Neurrelink, controlling radios and stuff with your mind. Like, that technology exists now. It exists now. It can be done. Last night we discussed, and this goes back to the UFO subject, hypothetically, if we have that technology now between robotics and AI, you don't really need humans. So if you're in advanced civilization and you're able to do this and you're a thousand years ahead of

us, well, there's a theory, what we discussed as a hypothetical, you would want to create a entity and a testing program to operate in shades of gray to know who you are at your soul, at your heart. And when we die is like, okay, this person has these characteristics they can fill in. And then, oh, by the way, because we're monitoring humans here, because we are humans at a soul level, just in the afterlife, I bring all that up. I have never seen evidence for it. Again, I'm a Catholic. So I believe in sainthood.

I make no declaration on goes to heaven or hell. I make a declaration on I want to be a saint. Matt and I have had deep theological discussions over many years. We do it all the time. I know where Matt comes from, and then you get a Gnostic Christianity in the African churches and early Judaism and all of it, and Book of Enoch,

which people really need to understand why that was left out of the Bible and the Catholic Church's stance on it and Judaism stance on it. but I've never seen it. I mean, you're getting into a conversation that would be five hours, Jesse, on theological. Do you think that the book of Enoch holds any truth? I absolutely do.

The watchers came down and made it with man and created demigod, nephilems. I'm not going to make a declaration on that. What I will say is this. I am a Catholic per Catholic teaching per Malachi Martin, who was one of the first people to read the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Catholic teaching is the Book of Enoch and basically the apocrypha, the reason it was excluded is not because it's false.

It wasn't because it wasn't 100% true. Their teaching is that you have to be 100% true to be canon. And because those books were not 100% true, it doesn't mean that there isn't truth in there. In fact, they say there's truth in there. It's just certain things were not 100% true. Well, I don't know. It's kind of funny.

It feels like an arbitrary dividing line. I mean, the New Testament is very supernatural itself. I don't disagree, man. And then you get into the Deuterocanon, and people understand this is the division between Protestants and Catholics. Yeah. And why the King James Bible took out the Deuterocanon and Maccabees, it's a whole thing. This is like, you and I could do three episodes on theology of the Bible. Well, it is really fascinating.

So if you combine a couple of arguments that seem hard to argue with, you end up in a very weird ontological place about how reality works. And so I'm going to give you the two arguments. One is that it's most likely that we are not living in base reality. You've heard Elon Musk say this. Nick Bostrom, this famous Oxford philosopher, is famously discussed that we're in this simulation. And that's likely why, because we're creating simulations now. So we are likely the product of a simulation. It's very easy to understand. And honestly, it's kind of hard to argue with. So you take that at face value. Then you take something else at face value, which is the progression of technology and the idea of technology

as a forcing function for good and evil. Yes. So technology is, you know, the history of tech is the history of humans gaining lower latency, higher bandwidth powers to manipulate reality. And so what you end up with logically, this is logically,

is the ability for a kid to blow up the world from his bedroom. Yes, and you see it now. You see it now. Our generation, we grew up with the internet, Jesse, this is one of the things, Real quick, I don't mean to cut you off. Again, we need to rethink everything we understand.

I grew up when YouTube started to become known. I can go and go and get a PhD all but dissertation. So PhD, A.BD, right now, I can go through all the Harvard classes on multiple degrees. I'm not paying it. The professors are putting it out there. I can literally get all these engineering degrees, physics degrees. It's out there. And oh, by the way, AI is out there.

and if you know how to manipulate it, what you just said is true. And if you're a 13-year-old kid, that's 170 IQ, you can literally, if you have the time and the intelligence, you can create everything around you and have 50 years ago,

100 years ago, what Einstein took 25 years to do. Oh, yeah. At your fingertips. Yeah, because, I mean, the internet is a very wide search space and there's a lot of information, you know, there. And when it comes to combination,

when it comes to conciliance and inter-domain insights like turning, you know, fire to electricity or a horse to a car, that still requires human innovation. Yes. But when it comes to combination and search problems, large language models, transformers, are amazing at them. They're so much faster than humans. And so if you are on one of these things and you're talking about, you know, create some off-the-shelf nerve agent or, you know, create some, you know, new pandemic and these are the variables or whatever,

This is freaky, freaky shit, but this is, this is happening. Okay, so my point is, so you take the Nick Bostrom simulation stuff, you take the fact that we, you know, technology is, is, you know, exponentially progressing and progressing in, and humans's ability to, like, do destructive shit in the world, but also really good stuff, too. And so, you know, it's this forcing function, like I said. Then you end up with this sort of, okay, we are in a simulation that is a testing round, which is, which dovetails with all religions. Agreed. And we are being tested based on virtues, you know, patience, you know, goodness, you know, love, of course. Hate.

You know, all of these things. And if you pass the test, then you end up either in the kingdom of heaven or hell. And you could actually instantiate the kingdom of heaven or hell as, you know, heaven is this place where tech is used for, like, infinite abundance and then hell is this place where it's used for like infinite constant destruction. And so you end up with this like crazy forcing function in the afterlife if you literally just take those two things at face value, which are very hard to logically argue with. Fully agreed. Applaus.

Fully agree. And then you go read Plato and you're like, who are the guardians? And why are we in a cave and why are select people being dragged out of the cave into the light? And then why is the light blinding and painful, you know, but also enlightening on some level like it kind of sounds like you're being dragged into that into that wider you know possibility space my opinion is fully agreed this is why again like i am one there are i i know things for a fact i'm going to say this and people behind the scenes and this is going to resonate i'm actually choking

up about to say this keep loving your heart be a good person tell the truth what you do here matters you're an eternal being who lives forever it's up to you i know Those things are true. Speaking of which, tell me about Paul Thigpen and what he meant to you. He was a saint. I miss him every day. And who was he? He was a Catholic PhD.

He was a great man. Fuck, I'm gonna cry. I am sorry. You know, he was more into like new age mysticism and stuff as a kid. I think that's fair to say. And he, uh, he encountered. this stuff, the will and everything else. And the will led him to search for truth.

He found his way into Catholicism. And just like me, he never told anybody, like, it is your job to convert. It's, it's, I love you, I will do anything for you, be a better person. Damn, Jesse, you hit me hard, man. He means a world to me. I miss him every day.

And he was one of these amazing thinkers who I think, he thought about UFOs in the religious context, but he wasn't also a prosthalitizer. He wasn't sort of an evangelist of his own views. He was, I think, a very deeply thoughtful, thoughtful guy. And, you know, wasn't very shrill. You often, we have an abundance of shrillness. Oh, yeah.

In the UFO conversation where people are so sure of themselves. And he just seemed to really, you know, inquire earnestly. But the truth is, for 20s, six centuries. The best minds, so many of the best minds of Western civilization have talked about this subject and taken it very seriously. 26 centuries. So all the way back to the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers and writers. Yeah, it's just a fascinating thinker. Oh, he was awesome. You know, and again, one of the lucky things I know is amongst all you guys, you included. Like, I talk to people and I care and I love them.

And like, thankfully, none of you guys have ever, no one has ever put me in a position to put me in a situation where it's like, you're going to go to jail. We talk about the hypotheticals. Dr. Thigpen, and the time that I knew him, would just be like, yo, how are you? How's your family? How's Matt? How's Dave? Is there anything I can do for you? I can't do much. But what can I do? I'm here for you. And him and I would, into Enoch and theology, like what we would talk about was for hours every week, we would just laugh and just talk crap and just joke with each other and just go over all these arguments and just be like, okay, we'll also keep in mind this happen with this culture.

And he was awesome. What did he think these things were? I think the same thing I do, which is a combination of everything. I think spiritual, I hate to call him extraterrestrial, I've never seen evidence for it, but a combination of everything, which is probably what. it is. How did he connect that with, you know, angels, demons, other beings from ancient texts? I mean, for him and I, I think, you know, I don't want to get into that personally.

There's an event that happened in my life to make me Catholic. I think the same thing happened with him. It happens with people. And when that, when you have something like that happened, it's like, I don't want to call it ontological shock. We were talking about you being allowed to go in and see a craft with your own two eyes that wasn't made by humans. Now you know.

I mean, I think you know already, but if you saw it with your own two eyes, you know. Oh, yeah. So now in your life, you're going to say, I know for a fact this is true. Yeah. I think that's where he was at with it, just like I am and others. Do you think the NASA, do you think the UFO that you saw wasn't ours but was being housed by? No. No.

I think it was there, and I have, we're going to get into really sticky situations going back to the Langley Air Force Base and imagery that I'm aware of and things. but I think that was a, I hate to call it this, almost like a tasking where I just luckily was at the right place at the right time and saw them come around to do a scan, so to speak. Matt Brown also said that these UFOs seem to be made for purpose. Do you agree with that statement? Yes and no.

I mean, the problem is, is the type of technologies we're talking about when you can do 80,000 to sea level and then travel 300,000. miles in a second. You know, why do you need to adjust tasking when you can throw something out? And Matt and I, like every whistleblower, we're all very respectful to not cross lines. Matt knows more than I do on things. No doubt about it. And I don't want to know. Maybe he knows something I don't. And theoretically it's possible, I just, when you're talking about

what we're talking about with beaming thoughts into people's heads, appearing anywhere you want, active camouflage, traveling 30,000 feet in two seconds. Why change dimensions? Why change shapes? Why do all that? You know, it's like having a, oh God, what's the A10? It's like having an A10 and an F-22. And then you have an aircraft that can do both with these.

You know what I mean? Like capabilities. But maybe. I don't know. Why do you think people at the top of the food chain when it comes to kind of legacy aerospace rocketry, people like Elon Musk, deny the UFO truth? And do you think they know anything more than what they let on publicly?

100% they know publicly. I think that Elon Musk has a strange thing where he cites the arrow statement, which is extraterrestrial evidence doesn't exist. Cole, Elon. What about not human? Yeah. Hypothetically. Yeah, so he's kind of in the same camp, almost.

I don't want to call it a camp. All I'm saying is he's saying the same line. Yeah, James Lekatsky seems to talk along these lines, too, of like, he talks about faith and what it means to be human. It does. With UFOs. So it's interesting. It's like people who walk into that room, they feel some sort of mental connection.

with the object. Often it feels ominous and dark is what I understand. I don't know. I mean, so very early on when I came forward, they were very interested if I had a connection to the triangle. I said no. However,

an event happened. A mental connection. Yeah, like there was a connection to the craft. And you said now? No, I never had it with it. But I had something else happened that made me a Catholic as a kid.

Can you say what that was? I prefer not to right now. Yeah. People behind the scenes know. Do you feel like it would muddy the waters if you did? I think it would be unfair and I don't want to muddy the waters. I'm very much on a trajectory of I want the truth to be told. I want this to be done.

I share my faith and my theology perspectives with people respectfully saying, look, I'm not telling you this is the answer. This is an answer. Have you experienced other general synchronities in your life? 100% of us. Can you talk about any of those? You know, we talked about it. The last thing I did with B.A.

that really messed shit up. Excuse my language. And we can't really get into that. But that kind of stuff. I mean, well, actually we can. Like, just weird. Weird stuff, man. Like, even the whole gnaws thing.

Like, that happens. Conveniently, while it's happening in reality while I'm asleep. But, you know, I think back to La Cato. Do you want to tell that story or no? I mean, you can. You know, I put the tweet up with a, uh, rolled a world with gnaz and you have responded

with the sample and one you were responding to that I was asleep. I didn't respond with the sample because that's a Tears for Fear's sample. Mine was. Yes. Yours was I was like, yeah, because there's a song on Stillmatic called Stillmatic. Yeah. It's the first song. Yep. And it's exactly

it's a Stacey Ladisaw sample and it's like, what is it? Let me be your angel. Yes. And I love, I actually love the original song which I found through Nause. of course because I'm a huge hip hop. Same. And so I've commented that on your on your Twitter. And while you, while you were commenting that, so I wake up at like 2, 3 a.m. on the East Coast. So I'm up and I go to bed at 7 o'clock at night. I'm up at 2 or 3 in the morning doing dishes, chickens, a whole nine.

So I take a nap in the afternoons every day for like an hour. And while I'm asleep, I have a dream about you coming to my house to get Prove alone and a prosciutto. It was prosciutto. It was provoloma prosciutto. I only had mozzarella. And you and I were sitting in a living room and we were BSing about music. And I wake up and the very first thing I see is your response. Now again, just weird stuff. But that happened. You know, there's other weird stuff that has happened to. That is very direct. Like I don't want to call a prophetic dreaming, but it is. But you sense when people are about to pass. That is true, yes. That's wild. But they have to be family or very, very, very deep friends. And that's so crazy. I believe that's the quantum mechanics. I think that...

Yeah. You're entangled with them. I do. My soul, your soul is friends or if significant other family, I think that the imprint of us changes each other. And this is, I've been hunting down genetics. So I think the quantum entanglement, the human soul and genetics are all entwined. And I think that you are a reflection of not just who you are genetically, but society.

Like, don't blame me what the streets make me stuff, but also who you are genetically is you. I think that your loved ones and your friends and significant others, their soul and their being impacts you. And once that happens when they disappear, because I felt it, that part of you that impacted if you're in touch, you can sense it when they go to the other side. And I've seen it. And I don't even think that's that woo. You know, there's a neuroscientist named Dr. Tara Swart, who does a lot of work on this.

And her husband actually passed under fortunate circumstances. And then I think a bunch of doves showed up at her house. And this is like a thing. Sometimes people, especially who are terminally ill, will come up with like, you know, give me the sign that you're going to come. Yep. And I, off record, I'll tell you some of the other stuff, but it's a thing. That's so wild.

It's so interesting. And when you told me your synchronicity around the dream you had about me, I told you wanted, which is that, you know, it's really trippy. So my girlfriend's a big red hot chili peppers fan. I'm a fan, but I'm a little more, you know, casual of a fan of theirs. And randomly, I had a dream about flee, the basis, the famous basis, texting me. And in my mind, he was texting me. He was like, hey, we should catch up.

I don't know how I had his number. But, like, it was like he was interested in UFOs. You know, I was like, oh, occasionally celebrities will reach out because they're interested in UFOs. I was like, okay, maybe he's, you know, just one of these sort of, you know, people or whatever. And so I wake up and my girlfriend's, you know, in the room. And I'm like, you wouldn't believe it. But Fleet texted me in my dream. And she freaks out.

And she's like, no way. What did you just say? It's a fleet, texts me in the dream. I hear a red hot chili peppers fan. She was like, I was just thinking about him on my walk because I was wondering if he was a UFO, into UFOs. It's consciousness, man. I mean, again, what concerns me is with this field

and with remote viewing and knowing the CIA, they have a tendency to take the truth, extrapolated to insane circumstances publicly, to diminish the truth and they just go full into town. But it's a thing, dude. This is very real. Well, the issue with talking about mind control stuff

is it's impossible to end the implications of that. Because if you can replace false memories with real ones and then the person can never know what's real and what's false, which is true, a neuroscientist named Dr. Wilder Penfield, who's involved in early mind control stuff, you know, shows that this is true in mice. I'm sure it's true in humans as well. Yep.

You have all sorts of Mandela effects where people sort of remembered, you know, different pasts, you know, the famous one being, you know, some people in South Africa remember Mandela passing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's no end to that conversation because then you end up with, especially where there isn't physical evidence involved, literal air pockets of consensus reality in the past.

Yeah. Well, now, Jesse, let's get even crazier. Yeah. If you accept that time doesn't exist outside of our reality of it, which speed and gravity prove that time can be manipulated, how do we know all of us aren't just operating in a mind control right now? And I hate to do it. But again, I'm looking at things through what are factual, what can we prove, what do I know, what is intent. Well, there's no way to prove that that's not true. And then you go into ancient stories, you know, in Islam, for example, of gin where they'll literally change variables in reality.

Back to my weaponized interview when I say, call them angels, demons, or gym. And then you look at interpretation of quantum mechanics and Schrodinger saying, if you measure a particle in the present, it changes its past. And this idea that a lot of people who study parapsychology, by the way, elite universities, Princeton, Stanford, you know, Duke, they'll come out of these, you know, research programs and they'll say, it seems like there's a constricted present. So if you have, you know, one or a zero, it's usually a one or a zero in the process. You know, we've collapsed the present into sort of a real reality. And then you have probable futures. And then this is where it always trips people up, but probable paths. And it's almost like the mind is like a, like a stylus on an LP player.

Yep. And it's choosing a track. But all of the tracks exist, coexist all at once. They do. And then, and again, like one of the big things within Catholicism and this, everything in nature is reflected in this. spiritual. So like a big thing is a conchishel, the spiral. And you get into this whole thing. And then you think about the universe. All of us are circling around a sun. And you have it happening

scientifically, but where are you at in it? And unless you can scientifically get outside of it to view it, you have no idea where you're at while it's happening. Yeah. And it's like our, it's like there's like client and server side. And our minds are like client side. So I'm talking about. about computer science now. And it's almost like you're running a computation at all times. And so it's like, why does, you're mentioning the spirals, why does the golden ratio and the Fibonacci sequence show up over and over again? It's as if we're in some sort of simulation.

If you're building a computer program, you would reuse the same code chunks over and over again. That would be the most efficient way to build it. And I think, you know, again, we, again, to really knock it deep, and I'm sure a lot of people are going to attack me for this, but again, to touch on theology, but again, like we discussed, almost every religion known to humans,

uh, more or less believes when you boil down and this is a simulation. Yes. And so this is what's really crazy. If you're guarding the simulation, you are controlling and guarding the exit paths. And I think about two exit paths, consciousness and then extremely high energy physics.

So nuclear, high voltage experimentation, article accelerator. So create it. That's your go on. So, and then you get into ideas like Rubik's Cube, where, uh, you're constantly sort of growing this petri dish that is humanity. And the way to grow humanity would be you give people things in the form of UFOs that break all known priors. So the end product is actually the expanded mind of the human looking at the thing. It's, that's not incidental. You know, this isn't some technology for our own instrumental use.

This is literally a thing that breaks our brains, expands them, and might even exist at the borders of, you know, stability, where, like, things might start to, like, get really crazy a la nuclear. These things sort of show up, and it's like, you're not in charge, and we're going to, like, mess with you, and you're now going to become obsessed with this thing. Yeah. You know, Jacques Valet talks about that. And, in fact, the Trinity test site in New Mexico.

there's a test on July of 1945, and then 20 days later, you see this crack. Communication could be, you think you're really smart. Now, look at this. So it's like the UFOs are like these instruments for social coordination and cult creation and belief systems, and that's not unique to society. That also happens with the government.

And of course, you would disproportionately use the government. in that way because they're in charge of a lot of things. Back to control system. So if you have a control system on reality and you want to have it, again, almost like a pyramid, you want humans will stack things in leaders and who is more powerful. So if you have a control system operating our entire reality, well, you would have a control system to control all of us under it. Back to hypothetically agreements.

And then now this is where this gets real fun, back to time travel and time dilation and all of this, which is, Back to the hypothetical, which is, well, if time doesn't exist, are we as humans in the future manipulating ourselves to break ourselves to put us into that position? And that goes back to your interview with Ramsey and GERB and it's all on the table, dude. I don't have the answer. I love these conversations because this is where I'm trying to figure out this stuff. Well, I think the reason it hasn't been disclosed is because the number one rule of intelligence is if you don't understand something,

and you don't disclose it. But so, like, these conversations are essential, not only to, you know, life, in my opinion, I think it's really important to just think about these things. But, like, they're essential, honestly, to, you know, even the powers that be, like, they are so on, they don't understand any of this stuff. So they need to let it out and they need to let, you know,

open source information sort of flow around these things. And we need to be able to hypothesize and speculate. Yeah. I think these are the most important conversation. I think if my whole thing has been I will I believe people when they've experienced stuff my issue is is all I care about is truth accountability restitution and right back to vanguard um that's what I'm after and I will be there for everybody and I will be a shoulder to be there because I know this stuff will isolate you and make you feel lonely and I don't want anybody to go through what I went through or my friends or my family or the other whistleblowers but uh yeah what do you think the people who worked at Langley, who are trolling Google Maps and tagging pyramids, labyrinths, all these things. What do you think they're thinking? I think some of them are like maybe flirting with it, just like, oh, like a little signal

here and there, like, oh, check out this. Like, again, all of us, all of us have, like, trolled. So I don't know what they're doing. It's real. But I think that they, it's just them, like, joking around with each other. It could be nothing, but I know it's there. So if you go on Google Maps and you go to NASA Langley, there are people who seem to be employed by intelligence agencies and other government organizations that are tagging Google Maps in that region with labyrinths and pyramids and all sorts of crazy rocks. Yes. So I screenshoted these years ago. So one of them is this one. So here's NASA Langley Hypersonic Facilities Complex.

and this is probably three years old and you can see the labyrinth clearly. Oh yeah. It's a freaking maze. Yeah. Now, I screenshot this years ago. Now, if we go back over to Google Maps and we go to NASA Langley right now

and you can see it, you have that photo of the building and right next to it in Google Maps is that. Like, you can see it. It's clearly there. That is a screenshot. If you go there right now

and pull up the photo, they erase that photo of that labyrinth, and the only photo attached to the facility is the facility itself. Can I see the maze real quick? Yeah. Because that thing look weird. Whoa.

So again, I'm not saying anything about it. I'm just saying that's a real thing. And somebody erased those pictures. And I have pictures saved of these rocks. I have pictures saved of like pyramids and crap all over the NASA. Can I see the pyramids and the rocks? I'd have to find it.

There's the rocks. And that's one of the dudes who works there. I want to be careful with that. Okay. Um, but I went and tracked these people down on LinkedIn and on Facebook and everything else. And they just wild shit. Like, again, she works there. Whoa.

And what is she posting? Look at that. I know. That's like a weird spiral. Yep. But again, all of this has been scrub now. I was pulling up while we took our break. All of this has been scrub now.

So weird. I said all of it. Like here's, here is everything. There's a labyrinth. It's like codes for. the outside world. What is that? It's like a black,

that black night UFO from the 50s. Yeah. And again, like they tagged, they tagged all of this. It's like, here we go, here's one. Uh, there's,

there's, uh, one of the Egyptian pyramid things right there. That's tagged in under that agency at NASA Langley. They were just tagging shit and posting these wild pictures all over the NASA facility and they worked there years ago. And now all these images were scrubbed. Again,

I don't know what it. means I just know what happened. That is nuts, man. Did you ever meet anybody while working there where you were like, you're on something trippy? Like, you kind of, you know more about reality than me. My old tech sergeant who I worked with, who was a load master, he clearly knew something. He was very out of me. He was like, Dylan, I care about you.

Don't talk about this. You will destroy your life. Really? Yeah. And then when I was at BAE, one of the older guys who worked for a. archives had a TSSCI and made his way to the intelligence community as a government employee he was he knew way too much and he was the same way like dude you got to watch yourself they don't want you around like I don't understand it's like why are there such harsh

kind of allergic reactions to so the older guy the way he the way he made it sound was There are truths that the intelligence community doesn't even want to acknowledge, and that is one of them, that this subject is one of them. It's like the dirtiest of the dirty little secrets, and they don't want it out. It's a bummer, man. Well, you've turned this really negative, horrible thing that's happened to you and your family into a positive with Vanguard. So you have this project with Matthew Brown, and it's. to protect other whistleblowers. That was a hope.

Tell me about the project and tell people who are watching this, because hopefully a lot of people watch this, how they can support. Yeah, you know, we have the website up, the donation pages out there. We're still trying to keep this a little DL. You know, we really, so to be fair too, and be clear, Matt and I discussed this years ago. There are multiple people who are supporting this. Other whistleblowers, I don't want to name them. I want to be respectful.

if they want to talk, and then they're civilians. We have an incredible group of people who are just like, this needs to come out. We believe in this. We want to help. I know Jeff has recently fully come on board, and I think that's okay to say. Jeff. No to Sully.

Okay, nice. So, you know, we talk to other whistleblowers, like I said, I would love to name them, but I want to be respectful. I didn't have her mission. I'm acknowledging Jeff because Jeff said I'm all in. Um, the idea is to help whistleblowers and their families medically, financially, spiritually, emotionally. Uh, this is traumatic. You know, you guys, we've, we've all talked about it. Journalists and experiencers. I don't think you make it through this, uh, without coming out the other side and having a little bit of trauma and a little bit of like what is happening around me. You know what I mean? So, uh, the idea is we want to work with in the medical community. We want to make sure people who, because, you know, come whistleblowers and abbin whistleblowers don't lose their houses, which has happened. They don't have to move, which has happened.

This isn't some get rich, quick scheme. You know, we're not Michael Shermer getting paid $30,000 a speech. We are literally trying to make sure whistleblowers kids get food. Yeah, and, you know, something else, I know in the long run, you know, hopefully disclosure happens. Hopefully I acknowledge this is true. hopefully we get legislation, hopefully you get restitution, in all facets. This isn't just about money. Like this, when people talk about ontological shock, and this is something that Matt and I

and others have been trying to explain to the scientific community, especially the medical community is this is going to happen. And you have a group of people with Dave and all his witnesses and me and Matt and Herrera and Barber, list them. You have a group of people who not only are experiencers. But they also are whistleblowers. If you want to understand what this does to the human psyche and how to help humans, we're the perfect control group.

Are we not? Like, yo, you guys not only witnessed it and were in this, you guys also stuck your neck out and said, I'll die on the sword, let's go. So the hope is that we can get this done and hopefully it leads to disclosure and hopefully in the interim we exist. But we really want to help out humanity in the experience your community on the back end because we're trying to help people dealing with it now while this is taboo. So that's the idea, man, is just to help people and hopefully get them jobs and make sure they can

have a safe place. And, you know, I'm focusing on the past whistleblowers now. The future are like, hey, guys, if you come forward, we'll make sure you're protected. Here's what you need to be aware of. They're going to docks you. They're going to harass your family. They're going to pull photos. So scrub your internet history. Pay for this cleaning. service. Let us know if you feel safe who you want to talk to as a backup plan, dead man switch, basically laying the infrastructure for anyone to come forward and get them in touch, especially while Dave is working with Burleson's office, get them in touch with people to say, we went through this and we went through this when nobody was around. I mean, this is a madhouse.

It's still a wild west now, at least giving the future people an opportunity to not go through the BS we went through. So that's the idea. I love that mission, man. And I hope that, you know, in your quest to help others, you don't forget about yourself. I appreciate it. Yeah, because you, you, uh, you went out on a limb and you landed in a, you know, a rough spot. And, uh, I, you know, I'm sorry on behalf of the country. I think it's really whack, given all you went through and, you know, all the service. They're going to chuck me up, Jesse. So I appreciate. I love you, man. I love you too, man. And I mean that. And, uh, especially after everything you went through, to get gaslit on the service itself,

and then to bump into the UFO stuff and then come out and then have all, and then to testify before Congress, which should be this sacred body in taking your information and acting on it. That, you know, what's funny is, I will let Jeremy tell that story when the time is right as even that

is a crazy story in and of itself. Interesting. Okay. Crazy story. Well, I look forward to Jeremy telling me. And, man, this is gnarly, but I really do hope that you do take care of yourself because you did land in a rough spot.

You weren't treated well by the country, and I know you'll be vindicated, so, and I think in your lifetime. I hope so. I hope all of us are. You know, I want to say a couple of quick things is, you know, I love everybody. It means the world choking up, thinking about it. Oregon, contact, friends of mine in the IC,

you know, they'll come up and be like, hey, you're a hero, whatever. I'm not. You know, I think of Dave and Matt and the rest of these guys. Like, I did what I had to do. They created me. That's the irony is everybody else was like gung-ho, like, I'm doing this because it's a right thing to do. And I did the same thing. But for me, it was, I have to do this. You created this problem for me. Yeah. But it's just, it's not cool that, you know, you're living in, you know, a place where it's, you're, a place where it's, you know, you know, relatively affordable and inexpensive to live.

But every time I call you, it's like, you know, I'm getting Chick-fil-A and we're leaving some leftovers out and you're living very frugally and your wife and you, you have a master's degree, are both extremely qualified

and you're in this like, kind of, you know, what's the best way to put it? You're in the purgatory. Yes. Yeah, you're in purgatory. Yeah. So that sucks.

There's a lot of us in it. You know, I think only a handful of us who are in this situation publicly known made our way into positions where we are employed. The vast majority of the whistleblowers in the past, you either go into this subject and you go full tilt or your SOL. And this goes back to me being here and I love it. And I'm so thankful to be here and your audience and everything.

You know, I only want to speak when it's necessary and have something to add. and I love the fact that you gave me a platform to add this. I think all of this is important. I wanted to get out here for Vanguard and trying to make this work. You know, it's crazy. It's crazy times. Crazy times for sure.

And on a light note, I know you're a hip-hop head. We were just talking about that. Who are your top five? Oh, that's easy. M. Nas Jadakis. M. Nas Jadakis. Andre 3000. Wow.

Okay, who do I want to go on with her for five? Oh, now we're getting fun. Oh, maybe B-run. I don't know. I might go old school. I might go like way old school, but I don't know. It's a deep cut. Definitely the top for our locked-in.

But you'd go B-run over Biggie and Tupac and this is just yours. You know what? There you go. Completely. Tupac's number five. There you go. Okay. And Naz Jada.

Andre Tupac. There we go. It's a great top five. I love it. It's a good top five. Absolutely. What's yours? What's my top five?

Yeah. Oh, man. Let's see. I would say, Jay-Z is amazing. I know he's been in the news for some not-so-great reason. So, you know, as an artist, he's amazing. Who else?

As a producer, we were talking about that. 100%. the best producer Kanye's one, Dre's 2. As a pure rapper, I wouldn't say him. I mean,

I think Rock Kim's underrated. He hits so hard. Yeah. I think Biggie's amazing. I like him. Tupac's more raw passion, but Biggie's lyrics. Yeah, Biggie's out to flow.

He's got the flow. I like, I go for lyricists. Yeah. For me. That's where I run. Yeah. Um,

who else? Uh, man, you embarrass me with that Biggie Tupac. Completely out of my mind because I'm so focused in that world. I've been listening to Jewels and we were talking about it. Yeah, yeah, diplomat. I mean, I think, I think Nause has got to be up there too.

I mean, just because of Illmatic. And somatic, back to back, dude. Those two were great. And then after that, it definitely went a little downhill. I actually liked a couple of his recent albums, but, um. He had a couple hits in there. For sure. You know, you know, actually, you know what?

Let me throw it. Ice Cube is an honorable mention. Ice Cube. Ice Cube has had some disgusting songs. late in his career. You know how we do it. Oh, yeah. It was a good day.

He was in NWA, obviously. He was amazing. Yeah, man. I know, I know. You're making me go back. I'm going through all these songs in my head because I've been doing classic rock and I've been doing like more like New York rap lately.

Yeah. So I'm like all over the place. I've been really killing this Capitol City's Pink Floyd Tupac song. Breathe. It's a remix. So Capitol Cities produced. It's Pink Floyd breeds with Tupac breathed. Disgust.

We'll have to listen to it. This is some like California driving down the highway convertible music. Oh, it's awesome, dude. Sounds amazing. Oh, it's good. I'll get on it. Hell yeah. Dylan, I appreciate you, man.

Go check out Vanguard. What's the website? It's at vanguard.org. I know Matt had thrown it up. It's on Twitter. Vanguard.org. So on some real stuff, we have a social media team. This goes back to support.

And I want to give a shout out. everybody give a shout out to everybody who supports us we love you i know a lot of you guys don't want to be known and i understand and i hope one day all of you shit i'm gonna cry again i hope all you guys get all the respect in the world um yeah and and if you're out there and you have any disposable income and you really care about you know the story resonated with you and it's of a variety it's not in isolation please donate agreed and then uh one more quick one if i can add to that yeah yeah hold the government account accountable.

Yeah. Hold them accountable. Definitely hold them accountable. Yeah. I mean, I don't even, there's an endless laundry list at this point to hold them accountable or, you know, things they've done. But thank you, man. Jesse, it's been a pleasure.

I love you, man. You too. We're going to go chill? Yeah, let's go chill. Hell yeah, man. Eat some steaks. Love you. All right.