American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Inside America’s Most Chilling Alien Abduction [UFOs in Allagash]

Episode Date: May 10, 2026

Our American Alchemists this week are Jim Weiner and Charlie Foltz. AG1: Go to https://www.DRINKAG1.com/ALCHEMY to get their best offer… get 3 FREE AG1 Travel Packs and 3 FREE AGZ Travel Packs, plus FREE Vitamin D3+K2 and AG1 Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order! iRestore: Unlock your best hair & skin with @iRestorelaser and HUGE savings on the iRESTORE Elite + Illumina Face Mask Bundle with code [JESSE] at https://www.irestore.com/JESSE #irestorepod The Perfect Jean: The Perfect Jean: F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code JESSE15 at https://theperfectjean.nyc/JESSE15 #theperfectjeanpod -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early/Ad Free Episodes) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [e-mail] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:47 - Meeting Jim and Charlie 11:45 - Childhood Paranormal Encounters 15:18 - Sponsors (AG1) 16:40 - Twin Study Attempt 19:51 - 1973 Pennsylvania Sighting 26:46 - Setting the Scene at Allagash 28:44 - First Sighting at Mud Pond 35:31 - Eagle Lake Campsite 37:43 - Sponsors (iRestore) 39:04 - SOS Flashlight Encounter 43:44 - Missing Time on Shore 48:39 - The Burned Out Campfire 55:11 - Sponsors (The Perfect Jean) 58:16 - Gravitational Field Propulsion 1:02:11 - Gordon Cooper's Encounter 1:07:21 - Recurring Nightmares 1:13:29 - Meeting Ray Fowler 1:18:14 - Hypnotic Regression 1:35:38 - Bald Patches and Tumors 1:48:33 - Breeding Program Theory 1:56:25 - John Norseen's Death 2:08:16 - 1970 USS Holland Sighting 2:12:15 - Effects on Artwork 2:20:03 - Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The Alagash Lake, we're up there for the experience, for the pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness. What happens when you get back to camp? Well, we looked on the other side of the lake, and here's this sphere of light, and it's moving, like a balloon moving very, very slowly. What the hell is that over there? When I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it.

How so? So I looked at it through binoculars, and then as soon as I got him in focus, the light went like that. Whoa. Like a lens closing in on itself. And then it was right behind. behind us and I was like oh Christ we are not gonna make it back and then I'm struggling

to get up and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes and they began a clinical examination of me so you were laying horizontally what did the table feel like very sterile an emergency room setting in a way what did the beings look like what What did the beings look like? A bulb's head with large eyes, no nose like us, slit area in the chin. Are you freaking out? Freaking out. I'm beyond being freaked out.

Do you know if you have R.H. negative blood? I do. There you go. And then they came for me. I was terrified. He kind of like reached up in the air. It was long, thin, articular. thin articulated arms.

And he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened pocky puck. And they put one on the outside of each one of my shins, and then I couldn't move my legs. Oh my God. On his legs, for several years, hair didn't grow there. It was like a bald patch on its legs. Whoa, really. And his identical twin brother Jack had tumors growing in the exact spots. Didn't even get a damn...

T-shirt. I mean, no souvenirs. Jim Weiner, Charlie Fultz, thank you both so much for being here. I have followed your story

for many years, and so it's an honor to be in person with you both. You guys experienced something absolutely remarkable and kind of mind-blowing in 1976

in Maine. Yeah, on the Alagash water system, yeah. And it was you, too, And it was your brother. My identical twin brother, Jack. And another guy.

And another guy, another friend. And, okay, so let's set the scene. What is going on in your lives at the time? So you're in your mid-20s? Well, I was a college student at the time. Go on to college on the GI Bill. And my goal at that time was to become a school teacher to teach art to children. So I was a dual major.

I was printmaking and photography. So I figured during the three months where I wasn't teaching, I could do artwork to supplement my income. Well, that was where I was with my education. Jack and Jim had just graduated from Mass College of Art. I think that year, the year before. Jack did. I never, I didn't go to, I wasn't at Mass Art at that time. At that time, I was at the program in artisanry, which was a crafts program being run by Boston University and Benjamin Franklin Institute.

And so you guys are both artists. What are you like? All of us were artists, all four of us. And what are you like personality-wise? Are you guys sort of irreverent and rowdy, or are you sort of humble? and quiet. We were average mid-20s, you know, males, you know. We were enjoying the experience of the wilderness.

We had started planning the trip the previous year, acquiring gear, just slowly accumulating all the gear that we would need. Plus the meals ready to eat type of pack. pre-packaged food that we brought along with us as well. And you guys were pretty good outdoorsman, right? You had some skills when it came to kind of surviving outdoors on your house. Yeah, kind of, I mean. I grew up fishing out in the country, you know, doing fishing, camping, that sort of thing.

Where did you live at the time? Was it in Maine or in Massachusetts? No, we were living in Boston. Yeah, I was going to college. I was living in Brookline, actually, at that time. And the twins were my next-door neighbors, literally. Yeah. Just on the other side of the driveway was their house.

So you guys have known each other for a very long time. Over 50 years. Yeah, over a half century. Yeah. I mean, at that time, I was studying ceramics at the program in artisanry. I was working with two amazing potters. One's name was Bill Sacks, who was a potter in Western Massachusetts out in West Hadley. The other one was a guy named Rich, what was Rich is Richard Hirsch, who was a master raccoon potter.

And are you guys best friends? Oh, yeah. What, him and me? Yeah. I don't know this guy. Sounds like a one-way situation. Yeah. Evil brother.

Sorry, Jim, you got the short end of the stick here. Yeah, it's okay. I'm used to it. So you guys are, you clearly. there's a lot of prep work that goes into this trip. You guys are kind of, you know, figuring out the food situation. Yep. What equipment we needed, what clothing, being prepared for the weather because it was at the end of summer.

And as you may or may not know about New England weather, Mark Twain said, if you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes, it'll change. And the weather up there at that time was abnormally hot. and dry. It was one of the hottest August at the end of the year that they had had. So we had gear for the next level degree of coldness was the primary gear that we had. We, as I said, had climbed Mount Katadden two days prior to beginning our canoe trip. And when we were climbing up the mountain, to take my blue jeans, I had to take a knife and make them into shorts because we were so

soaked with sweat from climbing the mountain that our clothing, or mine was like grabbing me and restricting my movements. Hiking in jeans, never a good idea. Well, that's true. You can make them shorts, though. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you got innovative. So I think maybe one of the most interesting parts of this whole experience that is kind of

inextricably linked with it. You can't kind of separate it is just the landscape of Alighash itself. Oh, absolutely. It's beautiful up there. Describe it. Well, originally the Alagash water system, which is now a national park system, was originally part of the logging industry prior to logging trucks going out into the forest. You sent teams out in the forest. They would cut to trees, put them on the lake, float them. And that was. was they were moved down the Alighash River all the way to like Fort Kent and Alagash, the village of Alagash. And then that was where they would get out on the St. Lawrence, is it there?

Or St. Francis? St. Francis. St. Francis. Yeah. That separates Canada from the U.S. And they would run the logs down there. We ran in on our very last day of our canoe trip. We met an old logger.

His name was Harry Smith. Really interesting character. It told us a lot about the early logging days and log jams and what you had to do to unjam them. And that was incredibly dangerous because you had to get out there and pry the logs loose until the water could grab them and get everything moving again. So the Alagash system still has part of an old railroad that they would go in to the forest, load up with lumber or logs, and take them out that way as well. And now it is all just a recreational environment. Yeah, it looks very primitive.

I mean, you don't, at least when we, the places we were, at you didn't see cuts, you know, areas that were clear cut or anything like that. There's no houses along the lake. It's all just wilderness. I mean, gray herons are flying over all the time. You see moose, deer, looos, all kinds of wilds. You have to make sure you keep your food stuff off the ground. You have to tie them up in a tree somewhere off a branch so the bears don't get at them. The rangers come every day to collect your trash, so that doesn't lay around. The other thing you have to do one

before you even go there is you have to, they only have designated campsites, and so you have to tell the rangers. What your itineries. So in case you go missing, they have an idea of which campsites to start looking for you.

So, and they come and check you. The minute you land on the lakes when we flew, in, we flew in on a bush plane. Within minutes, two rangers came and they come and they check your gear, they go through your gear to make sure

you're not carrying any kind of contraband because the Aligas runs into Canada. And they check to make sure that you have enough food, and camping things to survive up in the wilderness, because we were there for what, two weeks?

Yeah, 17 days on work. So, you know, they're they're pretty strict about who they let stay on the waterway and pass through the waterway. And if you're not out at the end of like the 17 or 18 days, then they start trying to find you. Had either of you experienced anything anomalous in your life, had you? Oh, yeah. You had. Yeah.

Described. Jack and I, when we were kids growing, we grew up in the Allentown area of Pennsylvania. We used to have these things happen at night in our house where we'd be sleeping in bed. We both shared the same room. And we'd wake up in the night and there'd be something pulling the covers off our beds. Or we'd see like figures moving around in the room.

We saw balls of light floating through the house on occasion. Did you ever communicate with anything? Yeah, we did with our parents, and they used to say, oh, you're having nightmares. Did you communicate with any of the beings or the... No, no, we went straight to the bottom of the bed. Scared. Scared.

And your parents thought it was a ghost, didn't you? Harry the ghost? Yeah, we used to call him Harry the Ghost. Ah. He used to call our names sometimes. Like I'd be in the room doing something, I'd hear this, Jim. A real deep voice.

Jim. Jim. And I always thought it was my father. Was there any history either to the house you were in or to your family? No, my father built the house himself. Anything around your family experiencing paranormal stuff prior to this? No. But my parents saw a bean in their bedroom one night.

Okay. Hooded bean in their bedroom one. A hooded being. Which I never knew until Ray Fowler interviewed her. Whoa. And then she reported it to Ray. So she wasn't open about it with you. She was open about it to Ray Fowler.

She was open about it to Ray. We'll get she, but he's a... Never mentioned it to us. Wild. So, you know, we used to have, like, to be, like, knocking on the walls at night when we try to sleep. And if you go into our basement, we had a... My father had a little pool table in the basement, so family members, he had a large family, brothers and sisters. They would come to the house every other weekend or so.

Back in those days, families, like, that's just what they did. Super random question, but do you know if you have RH negative blood? I do. There you go. Yeah, my brother and I have RH negative. And you did too, and your dad did. No, no, my dad. Not you. Your dad did, but you did.

Yeah, Jack and I both have RH negative. That's fascinating because that's a commonality among experiencers, this missing protein that seems to, for whatever reason. Well, when we were like six years old, we both broke our arms. like within a day of one another. Like when you have identical twins, if something happens to one twin, you know, wait a few hours, it'll happen to the other one.

It's like some entanglement. Yeah, it's like definitely entanglement there. Anyway, we had both broken our wrists. Opposite arms, too. Same fracture location. In those days... It's literally entanglement. Yeah, in those days, doctors came to your home.

Yeah. We had a family doctor that, you know, would come to your home, if you call them. And so I was in just unbelievable. I was in unbearable pain. I was in unbearable pain. So they called the doctor, and the doctor came to the house and he said, well, I'm just going to knock them out because if you can't handle the pain, I mean, I was flipping out. So he gave me a shot of something to knock me out, and a minute later, Jack goes out cold. I don't know exactly what AG1 is doing in my body, but I do know that my

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I'm sitting there and the doctor, they actually wrote it up. He wrote up a report. and they wrote it up in one of the local newspapers. And shortly after that, these two guys showed up at our house. And they wanted to talk to my father and mother. And they claimed that they were from some institute somewhere that was studying twins. And they wanted to take Jack and I away to study us. What institute?

I don't know. Is it called the Roundtable Institute? I don't remember the name of it. Do you remember where it was? It may have been Duke. Duke, the Ryan Institute. It may have been the Ryan, but I'm not, don't quote me. But anyway, they claimed.

What year was this? This was, oh, so there seven years, late 50s. Yeah, well, the Ryan Institute ended in 1960. Yeah, late 50s. Anyway, my father freaked out. Yeah. And literally threw them both out of the house and said, if you ever come here again or if I ever see you around my kids again, I will.

Well, it's fascinating. Because that time in history was when children started to be tested in programs that were kind of adjacent to MK Ultra, but also, you know, they were interested in UFO stuff too. There was a guy named Andre Pujarich. I don't know if you're familiar with him. But he was an early kind of architect of MK Ultra. He was a northwestern scientist and I think he was a medical student there. But just got very interested in consciousness. And he had a place in Ossining in upstate New York.

and he recruited what he called the space kids. And it was like a camp for high, you know, high psychic ability children. And they would often, you know, channel these beings. They would call the nine, these sort of, you know, alien entities. The first set of what really were the space kids were younger. Some of them were seven years old, up to 12 or in teens. Interesting.

So I wonder if you were, you know, being tracked by something. Maybe they were tracking us. Did that eventually evolve into Montag? So Montau, I believe, was, yeah, I think it would have been around the same time. I think it would have been, yeah, 50s, 60s. I believe there was like this machinery they found at Montauk and blanking on the name of the author of the book. But Preston something. Could be.

I had the book at one time and I've given it away already. Yeah. But no, but that sort of, so, I mean, that whole, the Montauk experiments, which we now think are probably real inspired, you know, Stranger Things. And Stranger Things is, you know, hit Netflix show, which is around the DOE and National Labs, basically recruiting children and doing psychic tests with them. And 11, this character in Stranger Things, which is like the biggest show in the world right now, is based on this. So I do think, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fascinating.

So maybe they were trying to recruit. They may have had something to do with it, but my father didn't like these two people. at all. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only.

Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Yeah, I don't blame him. Yeah. So that happened when we were kids.

And then in 1973 in the spring of 1973, I was attending Mansfield State College and upstate Pennsylvania. It's almost on the border of Pennsylvania and New York State Teachers College. And I was an undergraduate there. And they were. involved in this project with beavers because they were having problems with every time a big storm would come through. They'd have a lot of flooding. There was a river up there. I forget the name of it, but it would flood and ruin everything. And so they decided what they were going to do was parachute beavers into the countryside all around it. It's really up in an area of Pennsylvania

that's really wild. In fact, they filmed the deer. Deer Hunter movie. Is that the name of it? Deer Hunter? Yeah, that's where they filmed it. It's like you can walk for 75 miles in any direction up there and you don't see a single house. It's really, you know, primitive. Interesting.

Anyway, so I was, I was, I was, they got me and two other friends in mine up there involved with this where they'd drop, they'd perish with these beavers. They parachuted in beavers. Yeah, they parachuted in beavers to build beaver dams to control the water table. Wow. Which I thought was a great idea. Ah. Because how else do you get into the water table when there's nothing there except trees and forest? And so what we had to do myself and my two friends was, and they had other students doing this,

was we had to go out into like all these old logging roads and whatever and find beavers. and, you know, Marco, you know, put them in a database. So I was out one day with these two friends of mine and we were driving around a little VW bug. We're driving around looking for beavers. We never, I don't think we even found any. But we were coming back and it had just become nighttime. And we were driving through some pasture.

It was this huge pasture with two ruts for tractor ruts in it. we were driving and it was dark so it was but up there in that part of Pennsylvania it's what they call the night sky places where like you can go out and clear skies clear skies or you know it's like we're virgin black virgin black there's no light pollution and so we were driving across we were lost and we were driving across this pasture, this huge pasture. And on the end of the pasture, there was a tree line.

And so we were going towards this tree line. And then I noticed, I looked up above the trees, and I noticed there was this group of stars that looked like the little dipper, except they were moving. And they were moving in a really strange way. It was like, instead of like just going in a constant plane,

pace or plain. They were tumbling like a slinky. They would, this whole, they were maintaining the dipper shape. There was probably six or eight of these lights. They look like, you know, bright, bright stars. But they were tumbling end over end. And it was coming like right down towards where we were. And then we were like, I was like, what the heck is that? So I stopped the car. I said, we got to get out and look at this thing. So the three, of us got out of the car and we're watching this thing and it's just walking out of the sky like right for us and then all of a sudden out of nowhere this car comes opposite us on this tractor rut so we're like oh jesus so the car gets around us and then when when the at one point it was like on a hill

and when the car lights went up it hit these lights up in the sky and then they stopped coming down towards us and they started going parallel to us and while they were they kept maintaining this

tumbling thing except then they were changing shape like they were like they would go in at one point they were like a V shape and then another point it was more like an amoeba type shape

but it just kept tumbling end over end the whole time. So I said, let's signal it because it was only, you know, a thousand, maybe two thousand, wasn't that far up in the sky. And so I had a flashlight in my glove compartment. And I took the flashlight out and I blinked the flashlight. And all of a sudden, one of these starlight lights like went off like a big amber flash bulb and it's like it turned into like a tube of light, almost like a blob of toothpaste, kind of light came out of it.

And then it did a couple more tumbles, and then it just, this is the first time I've ever seen anything like this. It was going like this, tumbling, and then all of a sudden it just reversed. It didn't stop and wait. You know, one blink of an eye, it just stopped and then reverse,

it just reversed. itself and then it walked back up into the sky and disappeared. That was in 1973. Fascinating. Wow. So that was a year before, or that was three years before this al-A-Gash event. So you had had like this whole kind of backdrop of anomalous experiences, multiple. Yeah, except we never, we never subscribed them to UFOs. I mean, we grew up in, You know, I grew up in farm country in Pennsylvania. It was just like ghosts or weird.

Yeah, ghosts or, you know, flights in the sky. Lights in the sky, you know, could have been, you know, helicopters for what we knew. You know, I mean, I didn't know what it was. And so we, nobody talked about UFOs and those, you know, I grew up in a family that was, um, conservative. Very conservative. So, like, we didn't talk about ghosts unless something weird happened. And then my phone said, oh, yeah. Yeah, that's Harry.

Don't worry about it. It's only Harry the ghost. So he would casually, you'd dismiss it, but he would casually, he had a name for this ghost. Yeah. Because that's how much it would appear. We called them Harry. Interesting. Yeah.

Okay. So you guys, let's cut back to 76. You guys are at Alagash. You know, sort of beautiful landscape. Sounds like they have a rigorous protocol for kind of onboarding you, you know, to camping out there. You get there. At what point do you start canoeing? Well,

right after we climbed Katadn, which was the first three days we were in Northern Maine, went down to Milanocket and got some supplies, then climbed Katadn, broke camp the next morning, took the supplies we had purchased in Milanooga, and we drove north and east of Baxter State Park to a outfitter. at Shin Pond. And at Shin Pond, a friend of ours, in fact, the guy that came down this last Saturday,

we were using one of his canoes. A friend of ours named Charlie had lent us a Grumman aluminum canoe for our trip. And had taken it to Shen Pond, and this guy had it

strapped to the pontoon of the airplane. So he would take two passengers and the gear for those two guys and the canoe. That's all he could put in that little plane besides him. I had a Volkswagen Beetle and had a far more complex instrument panel than this airplane had. It was, I mean, it was as simple as simple could be. You got a choke, you got an oil pressure gauge, and you got a gas gauge, and that was it. Yeah, two canoes, the one that our friend loaned us, and then we brought another.

Rented one, yeah. Describe your first anomalous siting on the canoe. Well, the first sighting we saw of it was on our second day on the lake system. We were on Chamberlain Lake, and that was a lake that runs north-south, and we were going north, and we were trying to get up to the Alagash River, or the Al-A-Gash stream, which flows in from Al-A-Gash Lake. and that is a totally primitive up there area. The only way you can get up there is by polling up the river,

and we didn't know how to pole. But we attempted paddling and paddling, but didn't do us any good. However, to get back to the first sighting, we had passed two teenagers on our way north, and they were fooling around on a little island. And we got up to this site called Mud Pond. And we didn't want to camp with other people.

There were people across from us in a sheltered area from the wind. And we had decided to take this one spot. But when we got up there, the wind was like just coming down on us like crazy. And we're like, we don't want to be dealing with this all night long, trying to put our lean to shelter together because all we had was a big tarp that we used as a tent, you know, because you can use tarps for multiple purposes and we were using it for shelter and as well as keeping our gear weatherproof. Well, at any rate, the weather forced us across the lake where this other group of campers were.

And they had asked, had we seen these two kids we'd seen earlier, and we told them where we had seen them. And so they were getting worried because, you know, there's two teenagers, a member of their group. Well, and it had gotten dark by this time. So out there, it's so black at night. You can't really see your face. You can't see your hand this far in front of your face. So we were out with them as well looking with our binoculars across the surface of the water, seeing if we could I find them.

And they ended up taking the campsite that we had abandoned. And a member of this other group said, what the hell is that over there? And we looked on the other side of the lake and here's this sphere of light. And it's moving like a balloon moving very, very slowly. But it's like moving into this wind. So I'm trying to figure out. Yeah, I was trying to figure out, what the hell is that? But then we spotted these kids and so, okay, and we looked back at this light and it wasn't there.

Well, I looked at it through binoculars because it had, when I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it. How so? It just didn't look right to me. It didn't. It wasn't like a pure white. It was more like a yellowish white. and it, there's just something about it that didn't seem right to me. So I looked at it through binoculars, and then as soon as I got him in focus,

the light went like that, like a, like a lens closing in on itself, and then it just vanished. And I thought, well, that's, that's kind of weird, but I didn't think anything more about it because we were, we had to set up camp. So, you know, it was just this weird light. But I had never seen a light do that before. Like, just implode in on itself. Wait 48 hours. You'll see it again. And what was odd, which we didn't know at the time,

but it was like the direction that it was in line to us was over Eagle Lake. The area that we were camping at two days later. So it was almost like it knew where you were going. I was like patrolling at area or something. He was just controlling the area. That's interesting. That reminds me of when you hear Commander David Fraver from his 2004 Nimitz incident, and he says, you know, we were dispatched to go check out this Tick-Tac object.

And then the Tick-Tac was already at the rendezvous point that he was going to next. It was like they sort of know your intent or something of trajectory. Or it had been there for a while because there was a, there was a, witness, a logger who had witnessed this same craft up in that same area that they were logging. Fascinating. Okay. So do you guys kind of, you know, note that this is anomalous, but you don't, you try to kind of, you know, keep moving forward. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're not there to see a, a light disappear in the night sky. I mean, we're up there for the environment, for the experience, for just pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness.

What happens when you get back to camp? Well, that night, the first night we saw it, nothing. I mean, we just turned in, got up the next morning, and continued our canoe trip. That was when we tried to get up to Alley-Ash Lake. Do you guys even talk about the first sighting with each other? No. Okay. No.

I mean, it was like I got bit by a mosquito type of a thing. Yeah, yeah. So you probably said something when you were looking through your binoculars, right? Yeah, I said, well, this is a strange light. Yeah. And when it kind of winked out, I thought, well, that's kind of weird. But I mean, maybe it was a helicopter or maybe it was a balloon or something, and that's just the way it went. Right.

Okay. So then the next day after that, we had canoed up, tried to get to Alighash Lake, but found it impossible. We had spent like eight hours trying to. to go upstream until we got to a point where we said, well, we're not even at halfway mark. We turned around and it took us about 15 minutes to go back down to where we started. So we set up camp right there on the river that night in this camp location. The following morning is when we canoed down to the Eagle Lake Portage area. so it was a three-quarter of a mile portage that we had to carry our canoes and all of our gear.

So how we rigged it is that we lashed two poles that ran perpendicular to the canoe, and then the four of us would just pick up the ends with the canoe in between us and then walked the canoe over to the other lake, went back and retrieved a second canoe, and then got out on the water. And we were going to camp at Pillsbury Island. That was our goal. It's kind of in the middle of Eagle Lake towards the southern end of it.

But there was a canoe about, I don't know, a quarter of a mile in front of us. And that is where he be-lined straight to. So we're like, well, we don't want to camp with other people anymore. So we went to our secondary, which was Smith Brook campsite. We set up our camp for the night, and then we decided, hey, let's try and catch some fresh fish so we can supplement and have a fish meal or something. So we built a fire because it was getting dark. So we built a fire that we knew would burn for close to three hours and went out on the lake, and we had to navigate through standing trees, logs in the water. and it took us maybe about 25, 30 minutes to work our way through all this obstruction to get to the site that we were fishing at,

which was maybe about 500 yards from our campsite. Yeah, we were all in one canoe. Charlie was at one end of the canoe. The other guy was at the other end. Jack and I were in the middle. And all we had was paddles and fishing poles and that was it. You know, and a flashlight. a flashlight.

So I'm setting up in the front of the canoe and, you know, we're having no luck at all fishing when the other guy goes, what the F is that? As you know, we have a new starship. Of course, we have a health care center on board. Ask what my new favorite product in it is. I Restores Aluminah Face Mask. Some billionaires are rejuvenating in underground light pods. I'm doing my own version in my living room.

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It's warm, wireless, convenient, and makes your skin feel super soft. And Irestore is kicking off their spring savings with some very big discounts. Right now you can get the Elite Plus Alumina Face Mask bundle at an exclusive deal when you use code Jesse at irrestore.com. That's Jesse, J-E-S-S-E at iristore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. What the F is that? So we all sort of like turn and look toward the back of the canoe. And I see this aspirin tablet-sized white circle.

And I'm thinking, that is the freaking moon, you moron. But then I noticed that it was moving. and it was moving faster than moon moves. It's moving at about like this speed right here, and it's hundreds of yards away from us. And so we just sat there bewildered looking at this thing, and then it kind of like makes a left turn, and then it starts coming straight toward us.

Totally silent. Yeah, and so we're watching it and watching it, and then we notice as it gets closer, the tops of the trees are illuminated, and this thing's only about 15 feet above the tops of the trees, just coming straight toward us. And when it was about, well, less than 100 yards away from us, directly across, I thought, I wonder what the hell it'll do if I flash an SOS at it. So I had one of those square battery flashlights with the handle and the push button. I put my hand over the lens, turned light on, and then I three short, three long, three short,

and then this thing stopped. I mean, it just, no sound whatsoever, just stopped moving. And all of a sudden this big cone of light, blue light, like a neon blue, but it looked like a giant glass straw, you know, it looked like it was open, a void in the center of it or something. And this light starts from the bottom of this sphere coming out across a lake toward the canoe. And that was when I realized the sphere was coming with it at the same time. This thing was big.

It was as big as a two-story house. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like huge. Wow. And how far away? It was like under 100 yards for me? When I flashed a flashlight, but when I dropped the flashlight, it was about seven. 75 yards from us in closing.

Wow. And so do you think it reacted to this SOS flashlight? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it came closer. Yeah. And all I could hear behind me were Jack and Jim screaming paddle Charlie paddle. Uh-huh. And as I said, if I could have ran across the water like a Jesus Christ lizard, I would

have been doing that. What emotions are going through you guys at this point? Well, I was terrified. Self survival. It was like weird. I do not want to deal with this out here. Yeah, I don't know what this is, but I know as much as I really want to know at the moment. Because it was, you know, it was big.

It was huge. Yeah. And you're like, uh, uh, oh, that's not a helicopter because it was absolutely silent. Yeah, and it wasn't disturbing the trees or the water. I mean, you can hear a loon a quarter of a mile away. Yeah. And this thing didn't make it. any noise at all and it had this weird kind of life to it.

Like it was roiling. The surface of the lighting of it. The surface of this thing was like roiling. It was alive. It was like it was some sort of plasma pressure cooker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something going on inside. Yep.

Well, you know what it, one of the things that impressed me the most that I recall about it was you've seen halos around the moon, right? Sure. this thing had a halo around it as well as it approached us you could see the definition of this halo and the the sphere itself was kind of in constant motion yeah and i remembered i remembered um you know you're like paddle well the other guy with us he was just like catatonic he just sat in the with the paddle across his legs and just stared at it And we're like, paddle, paddle, paddle.

It's like sort of help us a little here. So Charlie. What's his name, by the way? This other guy who's catatuck. Chuck. Yeah. It's the reason I go by Charlie, so there's no confusion. And so we're like, Chuck paddle.

And he just sat there staring out into nothing. And so. It seemed like only a few moments from the time we started paddling to the time that Jack and Jim and I were standing. on the beach. We weren't in the canoe. We're standing in front of the canoe on the sand of the beach. Yeah. And this sphere had followed us all the way across the lake. Didn't Chuck also prior to this feel like you guys were being watched? He had some ominous. That's what he said. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the last thing I remembered before we were suddenly at the shore at the camp was looking back to see where this thing was. And I thought, well, it's still like, you know, 70 yards away,

except it was like instead of being back here, it was like right there. It was right behind us. And I was like, oh, Christ, we are not going to make it back. And then that's the last thing I remembered until we stopped at the, our canoe went up on the shore of the campsite. So there's a little blackout period, a little sort of missing time. Yeah, well, yeah, but I mean. in your memory at least where well i mean but the thing about it is is in the total context we

weren't aware of anything like this at the time at the time but but now recalling it you remember this bright plasma like object 75 yards away oh no no we remembered the whole plasma incident like it just happened last night and then and then you remember that and then it just sort of flashes directly to like you're going up onto shore right to the campsite. There's nothing in between that in your memory. No, no. As a matter of fact, I had a very vivid memory of my eyes focused on that campfire and that was all that I was, that was my goal, my objective was to reach that site because that was the only indicator of where a campsite was without that campfire. you know, the shoreline is identical at night.

It's dark. When you're going on to shore and the campfire is in sight, do you guys feel differently physically than before you blocked out a little bit? Well, this was the kicker when we got to shore. The three of us were standing on this in the sand. I reached down in the canoe and I picked up the flashlight again and I gave it another SOS. But this time, all it did. was it just went away from us to the opposite side of the lake.

Once it got to the exact opposite side of the lake, it ascended up and away at a 45-degree angle. Yeah, I remembered when we got on the shore turning around to see where it was, and I remember it hovering right over the water, and this cone of light was coming down on, so straight down under it on the water. Really? Like it was, there was a beam coming. Like it was setting on a beam of light. And it was close.

I remember thinking if I had a stone, I could hit this with a rock. And it was only about 40 feet above the surface of the water. And the surface of the water was like a mirror. It was like glass. Glass at night. And then it did that same winking out. I remember looking at this. Well, that was when it went up in the sky.

And then it just went. And then it. And when you could see it sort of close up, could you make out how. big it was and the and the shape it was circular it was still spherical and it was still and it was still like maybe two and a half story the house did a sense of the diameter yeah triple decker yeah triple deckers like 80 feet in diameter yeah easy and was it always uh kind of white light or did that's how i remember it kind of a whiteish yellow what the the the best example i could give you to envision what we saw would be go into a dark room with a 25 watt light bulb.

Look at the light or turn the light bulb on, look at it, turn it off, and then close your eyes. The after image that you have would be about as close to what we saw as I can think of, for example. Fascinating. So you guys are going on the shore and you flash the SOS again and the thing kind of, you know, It just goes across the lake and begins to ascend up and away from us. Yeah, when it went, it flew weird. I remember it reminded me of like when you have a frisbee and you're tossing a frisbee back and forth. And sometimes the frisbee will go at a certain... And then skips up and then keeps going and then it skips up again.

That's how this thing, it was like it was going up a stairway. What happens when you get back to camp? Well, this is while we're in. camp watching this thing going up. Okay. For some reason, I felt that this thing was about to take off at a high rate of speed. So I took the flashlight, which I was still holding in my hand once I had signaled it the second time, and I looked at the sweep hand on my watch, noting to where the sweep hand

was or the second hand. Then I looked back up at this thing, and then it shot off into the night. sky. So I didn't observe it skipping. I just meant that probably happened when I was looking at my wristwatch. But when that thing took off within eight seconds of the time I spotted the sweepand till the time the thing was a pinpoint of light in a night sky, eight seconds had elapsed. And I turned and I looked at the campfire. The campfire had flames. about one inch high. The campfire had completely burned out.

But I didn't say, oh my God, what happened to the fire? I mean, because fires burn out. You expect that. But I was puzzled by the fact that the fire was exhausted. So I asked everybody, should I throw some wood on the fire

and build it up? And they're like, fuck the fire, man. I'm exhausted. I'm going to, and I all of a sudden just felt exhausted. So it was like, that adrenaline that puts you into the after burner rocket across the lake to get back to your shoreline safety,

that adrenaline is now dissipated and exhaustion hits you. That's the way it felt like. But you somehow intuited that this thing was going to shoot off, that you felt like you had a sort of premonition. But I didn't know why at that time. It took us going through hypnotic regression to learn the answer to that. And the fire is significant too, right? Yeah, yeah, extremely so. So explain that.

Well, the fact that we had only been out on the water less than 30 minutes when we encountered this thing. So it should have taken us about 20 minutes. to get back to shore, but it seemed like only took a few moments for us to get back to shore. And when we got back to shore, the fire was extinguished. So that was a three-hour period of time

that is that missing time that everybody talks about. And the fire initially was set, you know, it was an intense fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it acted like a lighthouse. Uh-huh. Because, I mean, you have to have a point of reference to get back to if you're going to be out on the water at night.

Because, as he had said before, you know, you can feel the heat from your hand, but you can't see your hand. So this was a bonfire explicitly for visibility at far distances. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not so big that it would start a force. Well, I mean, if it would have been windy, that would have been a different thing.

but it wasn't windy at all that night. I mean, it's called a long-burning fire or sometimes an upside-down fire. You build it to last, to burn a long time rather than quickly. And the fact that this was basically out by the time that you guys got there or, you know, all but out, shows you that maybe there was some missing time involved. Well, we didn't think about it.

No, because fires burn out. This is a pattern that you notice in retrospect after piecing everything together. Yeah, in fact, we hadn't even. you know, made that connection. It was Ray Fowler that made the connection. He said, this is missing time, where you knew you were paddling toward a fire, a fire that you were looking at.

But yet when you got there, the fire was out. That's also a common trope with alien abductions. You have, you know, Travis Walton coming back with a fully grown beard. Yeah. You know, actually, it was one year before you guys, right? It was 75. 75. Nine months.

Nine months before you. Yeah. And I had never heard of Travis at that time. Oh, yeah. We didn't know about anybody back then. We didn't know about any of this shit back then. We were novices. It was all new.

Yeah. Which is one of the reasons we were so intent, as I said to James, to share this knowledge with the world. I mean, you know, this, hey, something comes down into my neighborhood and kicks my butt. and I can't do nothing about it. I want people to know. Did you guys report it to? Oh, yeah.

The next day, when the Ranger came to collect our trash, we said, hey, you know, did anybody see anything weird last night? And he's like, what do you mean? I have that main accent, you know. So we told them what we saw. And he was like. He kind of give us this weird look. Yeah, I said, well, I don't know what two guys were smoking last night. night. No, you didn't say that. If I were you, I'd stop, you know. And we were like, no, this is something

that we really saw. This thing was like, how could you, how could somebody else not see it? And in fact, we asked other people when we passed other people on the lake system, we said, hey, did you see anything weird, you know, last night or a couple nights ago? They'd say, no, we were all in bed by, you know, sat down. And you guys had six more days, right, on the hiking, on the, no, no, we had like about two more weeks. You guys had two more weeks on this trip. So how much does this change the dynamic between you guys or you guys talking about this a lot?

Well, that night we didn't talk about one word. We just more or less all drifted off. Forget about the fire, everybody said. So we all drifted off, climbed in our sleeping bags and, you know, closed their eyes. And then the next morning, as we're breaking camp and eating, The only thing we could talk about was this thing. What the hell was it?

It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New Year, no phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees, a UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me, but better.

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NYC with promo code Jesse 15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Here, khakis, and get the perfect gene. What the hell was it? And we immediately said, well, I had to be a UFO because I said it's nothing military because I'm familiar with what we have militarily. I've been on enough hughies to know it wasn't no damn helicopter.

Well, it didn't make any noise. It was totally silent. And as it flew off, it had to be going faster than the speed of sound. It just had to be because that's how quickly it's... Speed of sound? Accelerated. Yeah. No sonic boom.

No, no sonic boom. No boom. Totally silent. So it almost feels like it's gliding through space time or something. Yeah, I don't know how, you know. Breaking Newton's third law or something. I don't know how it does that, but there was no sonic boom. And that thing took off like Charlie said.

All you saw was a streak behind it. How much are you guys talking about it for the next couple of weeks? So you talk about the next day? Oh, we talked about it for like the freaking next year. Everybody that we knew. Yeah. Literally, everybody that we knew. And a lot of people that we didn't know, we shared.

this experience of seeing this thing and being chased by it. By week two, are you guys starting to speculate about UFOs, non-human intelligence, aliens? No, I mean, we just said it was a UFO because it didn't move like anything I'd ever seen or any of us were ever familiar with, like shooting off into the night sky the way it did. And we didn't have any sense of contact with any beans or anything like that. It was just this weird craft that we saw. That saw us and chased across the lake, scared to crap out of us, and then we were off and gone. But to get back to me shining the flashlight, to put that in a little bit of context,

remember I said I used to work on nuclear submarines. Yeah. And I worked with a reactor system. Submarines operate with a bubble of air inside the between the outer hull and the inner hall. They have a bladder, like fish have a bladder. And you fill it full of air to maintain a certain depth. Well, apparently when I was on board this craft, inquired about their power system, you know, because I was curious about it.

And it was relayed to me that it works like the submarine working with a bubble of air. They can match gravity fields. So if you set it for, you know, like minus X, that might be like 80,000 feet up in the sky and set it for minus one and you're 12 inches above the water. And they can move between the, in fact, the encounters that the aircraft carriers had in California in 2004, they had a craft at 80, I think it was 81,000 feet. It was like over 15 miles straight up in the air.

And they sent planes up to that. area and when they could just start seeing it on their instruments it dropped down to 24 inches above the water surface in under one second. I think it was it was right above the water and it moved to 30,000 feet in 7 eighths of a second and then yes it then it zoomed up to over 80,000 so yeah but I mean that's another thing that kind of disturbs when we're reading information You get a lot of conflicting information. Well, I think you're actually right because, well, some of them are radar. I think the radar thing was more similar to what you said.

And then the, you know, I think maybe visual. Yeah. But it's just like I've heard podcasts on the Alagash many, many times. They're always getting their facts. Yeah. And they're mixing this person up with that person. And yeah. Well, even Ray did that in his book.

He kept getting Jack. and I mixed up. So you get back, you see your families. What do you say to them? And how do they react? Well, I mean, half of my family believed me, and the other half thought I was squirrel bait. You know what squirrel bait is, don't you?

No, it's squirrel bait. Nuts. That's funny. There you go. So, but over the last 50 years, and especially, most especially over the last 15 years. There's so much more information

coming forward. So many more reliable, credible people were coming forward. Like the Prime Minister from Canada for... Paul Heller. Came forward describing

his UFOs the information he had. The Supreme Air Force commander of the Belgian military, you know, decades ago, way before we were even aware of Ray Fowler, came forward, said these things were real. Gordon Cooper? Well, Gordon Cooper, who was one of the Mercury 7 astronauts, Jim and I gave a presentation in Portsmouth, Maine in 1995, was it?

It's either five or six. And 96, I think it was, yeah. And Gordon Cooper was one of the speakers as well. We spent basically the weekend with Gordon Cooper. He shared with us that in 1957 that he was on the base, and they had a craft land, physically land on the base. So he was in a Jeep with three photographers, a cinematographer who had a 16-millimeter movie camera

and he was shooting film, 35-millimeter photographer was shooting film, and a 4-by-5 press camera photographer. And he said when they drove straight out, there was this sort of, like a kind of like a tick-tack shape thing that was on the ground on tripod. And when they approached the legs like retracted back into it. And then it just went straight up in the air.

When they were within about three or four hundred yards, it just went vertically straight up. And I said, well, what did the films look like? Gordon said, never saw him. as we got back they were all confiscated. And the saucer flew right over him and put down three little gear and landed out on the dry lake bed. And they went out to, uh, picked up their cameras and moved on out toward him filming.

And he lifted off, put the gear back in the well and climbed out a very high rate of speed and disappeared. That is so nuts. Yeah, well, he, I think, spent more time in space than any of the end. prior to him in the Mercury. Oh, yeah, yeah. He was one of the Mercury 7. Yeah.

Fascinating. Did he say anything else to you? Well, about seeing when they were orbiting, he saw, well, not they, each astronaut orbited by themselves. And, you know, because they only had seven astronauts, they only had seven capsules. So Cooper said that he had witnessed. and I guess he was on the radio back with the ground control and then they like they often do switch to another radio frequency to get off of the public radio frequencies.

Who the hell did we meet? Some guy from Australia that had been recording and when they switched to a different channel, he was able to switch because he knew where that channel was and he switched over to that channel and he recorded some of the interchange going back and forth. It's amazing how much information is out there and has been out there, but it was just in tighter circles. The circles are expanding now.

Yeah, I think that's right. But Gordon Cooper is saying that he literally experienced the UFO while he was orbiting Earth. Yeah. As an astronaut in the Mercury missions. Right. That's amazing. This Father's Day start with a question. Like, where did Dad's story begin?

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58, yeah. 58, 59. And so by 1969, when we were, landed on the moon, I was stationed over in Europe. I remember that night incredibly well because all the bars, you know, it was nighttime for us over there, all the bars were open and they all had these tiny little black and white TVs that were all snowy and we're watching the astronauts on the moon. So we all grab our beers or whatever we were drinking and we went out in the streets, thousands of us Americans were all toasting the guys on the moon with our beers.

Now the moon belongs to us because we got our flag there. That's funny. So did he describe this UFO that he saw at all while he was orbiting Earth with the other astronauts? Just that it had come in proximity with him. And I think he said it was green, if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know. I might be confusing. that with other astronauts that had encounters.

So you guys still have some missing puzzle pieces with your own experience for a decade plus, right, for 12 or so years. Oh, easily, yeah. Yeah, we never really started looking at it until the late 80s. So what exactly kind of spurred? Catalyst?

What was the catalyst to you piece together? Jim and Jack, both at the same time. in two different states, Jim lived in Massachusetts, Jack in Vermont with his wife. They both started experiencing these identical nightmares. Well, similar enough. Yeah, I don't know if they were identical. Well, for lack of a better word, they were identical in as much as they had the same four people, the two twins, me, and the other guy.

Yeah. And so back to the entanglement thing, you guys are experiencing the same things at the same time. But even then we didn't know what was going on. I remember he used to say, man, I had like a really strange dream last night where there were like these things, these like humanoid things. And I was like, yeah, Jack, come on, it's a nightmare. You know, I have them too. Yeah, yeah. I have the same kind of dreams.

It's just a nightmare. Don't worry about it. And it was you, Charlie, Jack, and Chuck in the dream just like it was you for at Alagash. Exactly. Yeah. Well, that was the only time that we had. ever done anything together like that. I mean.

So the dream is just you guys are sitting there and what happens? Like being in a doctor's office. Strange things are being done to you with no explanation. So are you guys on a craft? Well, we. Somewhere. After the hypnotic regression, we discovered that, yeah, we were on this craft. So you're having dreams that are sort of adjacent to or, you know, point to something else having occurred.

And then that catalyzes this desire to get a hypnotic regression. Jim had had an injury and he developed epilepsy, temporalobic epilepsy. And he was having a lot of seizure activity. So he was at the Beth Israel Hospital being followed. for that and they were going to do a sleep deprivation study on him and he had all these wires glued to his head and they said while you're waiting around you want to read a book or anything and he said yeah yeah so they brought in a tray of books and and one of them was uh Whitney streber's communion and when i saw the face on the cover I flipped out yeah I was like

why are you giving me this book to read? I don't want to read this. And I like, for some reason, I didn't really know why. It was just like this face, just. Negative reactions. Had this extreme negative reaction. And I didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I made a big scene.

And then a few minutes later, one of the neurologists came in and said, Jim, what just came down here? And I was like, I don't want to talk about this. And he was like, well, it's kind of weird, don't you think? And I was like, I don't care what you call it. You know, it's like, I don't know, I just don't like this. I don't want to look at this book anymore.

It was like a visceral allergic reaction. It was more like a visceral reaction to it. And I got really upset. And then... You know, this is, by the way, common for people, experiencers to see the cover, specifically of communion, but Lee Streber's book, and a lot of stuff, bubbles.

It just comes up. It comes back up. And sometimes it's this, eh, and then other times it's like, whoa, that looks familiar. Yeah. And so he left, and after the test was done, the EEG, he came in, he said, you know, I'm going to ask you a kind of personal question. And I said, fine, what do you want to ask? He said, have you ever seen a UFO? And I remember looking at him like,

what the hell? What the heck is going on here? And I said, well, yeah, as a matter of fact, I have. And he said, oh, you want to talk about it? And I said, not really, you know, I really want to kind of concentrate on the seizures. You know, I'm having these problems with seizures. I think that's a little bit more important than talking about UFOs. And he said, well, you know, I know this guy.

one of my professional people I know who turned out to be John Mack. No way. Yeah. Yeah. Who's this neurologist? He's, what was his name? Jonathan Silverman, I think it was. And was he affiliated with.

He was affiliated with Beth Israel. Yeah. And Harvard Medical School. Yeah. So. Did you sense anything nefarious about him or you felt like he was an honest actor? No, I thought he was an honest actor. And so I said, well, yeah, you know, I have had a UFO experience.

And I was telling them about these nightmares that I was having, thinking they were seizure activity. And he said, you know, Jim, I think you really need to talk to somebody like John Mack or somebody who deals with people who have seen UFOs. I could tell he was trying to be gentle about walking around. this topic so I wouldn't flip out again because I was I was not happy and so I said you know I really I really want to just concentrate on the seizures you know let's concentrate on a seizure so I tried to avoid it for a while and then a few days later he came into my room and said look you know

this guy named Ray Fowler Raymond Fowler is gonna he's a UFO investigator and he's going to be at this conference, which was pretty close to where Cal and I live now. The library? The Marriott Hotel. There was a Marriott Hotel near us. And he said he's going to be doing, he's going to be speaking at this, or he's going to have a bookstand or something like that at this thing. And I want you to go and talk to him.

And I was like, I don't want to talk to him. And he said, look, you really, I really want you to do this. So he talked me into doing it. And that's how I met Ray. Fowler. And I remembered when I met him, he was selling some of his books. And he said, oh,

yeah, your doctor talked me, and so I'm expecting you. And I said, you know, and he goes, well, why don't you just start at the beginning and tell me about this UFO that you saw? So I told him about it.

And at first I thought he was bored. It was like, oh, yeah, I've heard this a million times. You know, and then I said, I'm my Charlie and myself and my identical twin, and then he went, what did you just say? And I said, Charlie and I and this other guy am my identical twin. He said, oh, you have an identical twin? And I said, yes. And then he said, okay, I want you to start all over again.

And then I could tell he was giving me his attention. Why was that somehow? I don't know. From this role and you got a base population? and a control population if you're going to do any type of metal experimentation. So you have two identical twins.

Yeah, that's interesting. I also think from an investigatory perspective, if he's speaking to you first, he can get your whole testimony, then he can isolate your brother and then get the same testimony and kind of compare and contrast. And so it's probably, from his vantage point,

you know, the potential for high confidence is really there, which is exciting. And that's exactly what he did with the regression sessions. You know, we filed a report. That was the first thing we did. And then he said, you know, would you like to do hypnotic regression? Have you ever done, you ever been hypnotized? I said, no.

I'm not even sure I can be hypnotized. I mean, isn't that kind of a controlled show something? Some kind of weird thing, you know, that people believe in, but it's not really true. Not science. You know, it's not science. It's not accepted in a court of law. So, I mean, how could it be legitimate? And he's like, no, it's just kind of this super relaxed state.

You know, it's no big deal. So I said, yeah, sure, we'll do it. So we all, four of us, agreed to undergo... Regression. Multiple regression sessions. And then we promised we agreed that we would not talk about them between us. We would not report anything we remembered from these sessions. So no clue.

No collusion. Totally isolated. Yep. And what comes out of the regression session? Pretty similar stories. Yeah. Something that I didn't think had happened at all. I thought was, Christ of me, there's nothing to this story. We're out fishing. This weird light came up on top of us. We paddled away. We shined a flashlight at it. It flew away. That's the whole story. The whole end. Nothing to it.

So after... being hypnotized, then I was totally quiet, with myself even. I didn't even talk to myself. For like the next four hours, I'm just trying to access, absorb, and accept what I had just re-encountered that I didn't know that I had encountered to begin with. why the fire had burned out, why I knew that this thing was going to go at lightning speed because of its power source works off of gravitational fields when it's within the limits of a planet that has gravitational fields. Describe in detail what transpired based on your regressions between you seeing this plasma ball

that's glowing 75 yards away and then you guys kind of walking on to shore. Well, the first thing I remembered in my regression was looking at my toes and thinking, well, that's odd. What the hell happened to my socks?

And then I'm thinking, where are the hell of my shoes? Where the hell are my clothes? And the fast thinker that I am, then it's like, where the hell am I? And I'm like getting cold and freaked out and I'm like looking around. And just beyond my toes, I can see Jack and Jim and this other guy sitting on this bench like they're waiting for a damn bus.

And in my mind, I'm screaming. I couldn't articulate, but I'm like screaming, get off your asses. Get over here. Help me. Get me loose. You know, what's going on? And at that time, I was probably about a first-degree black belt in martial arts, Shodokan Karate, Goshenjitsu, Ishiru, Pukalan, and Aikido.

So I studied mostly Aikido for many years. But at any rate, I could take care of myself in a fight. You know, I'd had people attack me with knives and weapons, and I had to defend. spending myself successfully. But here I am, but naked, and I'm as helpless as an infant. I just,

it was rough for me to kind of cope with that for a while. And then I'm struggling to get up and I had that sensation of movement. I look up and I see this face. bending down to look into my eyes.

So I dropped my head, didn't move as way as quickly as I could. And I probably only moved my head like another three or four inches until I was making contact with the surface I was laying on and I couldn't go backwards any further. So you were laying horizontally? On a table, yeah. What did the table feel like? Kind of like a chilly, like this room is chilly. Yeah.

It felt chilly, very sterile, very much like an emergency room setting in a way. And then I recall this panel coming down from somewhere above my head and it was over my chest. And it basically covered my entire torso. And then this blue light came straight down out of it. And it had like definite dimensional quality to it. The light did. I mean, it isn't like, like take your flashlight or anything and you shine it and the light spreads and travels.

This was focused. It was localized into one shape. And that was emitted straight down onto my torso. And the. were like two beings to my left doing whatever to this panel. I had this one at my head and another at my feet. And they began a clinical examination of me for lack of another term at all. What did the beings look like? Like what did the face look like when you're lifting your head up and you see this other head above yours.

Leaning down? Yeah. Well, I got artwork of it in the computer, but, and it's in the book as well. A sort of like a bulbous head with large eyes, no nose like us and no mouth like us. It was sort of like a slight slit area in the chin. No ears like we have protruding.

They were like just a lump and not like a lump or a blob or anything, but like a slight bump out from the skull. Are you freaking out? Freaking out. I'm beyond freaking freaked out. I mean, here I was an individual. I mean, hell, I defended myself against seven armed kids in Boston. years ago. I had seven kids come at me with weapons. And, you know, I had no fear of them whatsoever. I just told them they'd made an error in judgment. I just had to let them know that

they had truly made one. With your words and with your moves. Well, yeah, I let them know a thing or two. There you go. But at any rate, I couldn't do dittily to protect myself or do. anything. So, I mean, at that moment on that craft, but I was told not to resist, not to fight, I wasn't in any danger, just comply and everything will be all right. And I'm there like, oh, I can do that. Were you told telepathically? Yeah, when I was, well, you've had the experience of being on a roller coaster when it drops and your stomach stays up around. your shoulders. Sure. I had a physical sensation like that, but it wasn't my stomach. It was like my mind. When I looked into these eyes, it was like two magnets, grabbing one another instantly.

And I mean, it was like, I understand what you're asking of me. I believe you. Instantaneous. Instantaneous. Comprehension of their intention. Absolutely. Interesting. Absolutely. And so I'm, they're like, well, okay, well, I'm not going to get hurt. I'm going to get released.

All right. Were they gray in color? Yes. Yeah, they were grayish in color. Do you remember how tall? Under five feet, spindly. Their hands had four digits. Uh-huh.

not five or three as are portrayed in a lot of our science fiction films, their hands had four digits that hang straight down. And the center of the hand had like an articulation ability. So they would have four opposable digits where we only have one or thumb. These beings had four opposable digits. And that was the way all their technology was geared, too, toward their hands. Just like our world is designed because of our hands, how our hands work to use tools. One day, you're negotiating with suppliers.

The next, you're installing a shelf in the back room. Running a business means moving in many directions all the time. TD's new small business banking accounts are built for how your business moves. It's how we're making banking more human. but they had like a clothing on it was I didn't for lack of a better word it's like a spandex type of appearance where it like tightly conformed to their body but they also one of them also had this wand like a magic wand that was maybe about this long or so Jim can tell you more about that because of something that he attempted to do. I'll go back to the canoe when we were paddling back towards the beach, the campsite.

The last thing I had remembered consciously was looking up and seeing this craft like right behind us. The next thing I remembered was going up to the canoe. But under hypnotic regression, I remembered it being right over on, like literally on top of us and that this beam came down around the canoe. And it was a hollow like Charlie said earlier. It was like a tube where our hose where the sheath of the hose is made out of light. And it was moving. Like when you see dust motes through sunlight, you know, it's moving.

That's had this quality to it. But the inside was dark. And I remembered looking up, straight up, into the top of this tube, and it was dark in there, but there was something moving. I could tell there was still something moving up there. And I remember thinking, oh, shit, this is bad. And then the next thing I remembered was being in a room, Chuck, Rack, and Charlie were sitting on this bench. And I think I remember it. I was standing near it.

And Jack was out in front of me with these beans. And then one of them had this wand that had a thin wand with a bulb on the end of it, like the end of your finger. And he was doing, he was pointing it at Jack. And they were doing, they were like taking his wrist and wrote, rotating his wrists and his arm to see like how it rotated. I thought at first they were going to hurt him because they were like trying to twist and turn it all these different ways. And I was like, oh, Christ, man, they're going to break his arm.

And then they had lifted his head back and they were like examining his throat. And they had another thing that looked like it was a little flashlight, like a pencil light flashlight that they were looking in his eyes with. And then I remembered them walking him away into this other area. There was like a hallway of something. And they took him in through there and then they came for me. And they were doing the same thing to me. And then when they went to walk me through this area, I didn't want to go because I was terrified. thought, that's it, we're going to get dissected.

This is, this is not going well at all. And I didn't, I didn't get any messages saying, just relax or we're not going to hurt you. I didn't get anything like that. And I didn't want to go through this, this doorway or into this other area. And one of them that had this wand, took it and they jammed it in my rib, in between my ribs, you know. And I was like, then I got, I didn't hear anything. It wasn't like a verbal message, but I just had this understanding that if I didn't cooperate, I was going to be in trouble. That I had to cooperate.

Was there any sort of surgical implantation of anything or removal of anything? Well, I remembered them taking sperm sample. And then at one point I remembered this was over two sessions. session at the first hypnotic session, I remembered their bodies, but I couldn't get their faces. For some reason, I just could not see their faces, or I didn't want to see their faces. And then in the second session, their faces finally came through, and I remember screaming, they're bugs. They look like bugs. They had this kind of, it looked like a shape of an, And, you know, they had a bulbous top head and had these big eyes that were more laterally situated rather than in the front.

No nose, slit for her mouth. And I couldn't tell if it was the actual head or whether there was a mask there of some sort. And I thought they looked, they reminded me of like an ant head or an insect head. Are there any details from each of your individual isolated regressions where you were kind of separated from each other? Any details that were inconsistent between your accounts, or did they all line up? Some small of details were different. Like I remembered the device that they used to get the, to store, the semen. I remembered it being more like a tubular shape with a round bottom.

And there was a neck, a smaller flange on the neck. But like when they took the semen from me, I was like, I was so terrified. You know, my Johnson was like three inches inside of me. You know, it was like, you are not getting there. And so then I had this, I got this impression that things are going to, you better change your way. are, you know, so I actually, like, forced myself to get an erection, and then they brought out this thing for me to, you know, ejaculate in. Whereas Jack remembered more of a conical shape device with a, with a wand coming, like a spike coming out of it or a needle coming out of it that they

actually inserted into his penis to get the sample. So that was different. between his recollection and my recollection. Or it could have been different instrumentation or whatever. Yeah, it could have just been because of the way, I mean, I remember they let me sit up to do it. I remember saying, I can't do this laying down. I got, you know, let me sit up, and then I was able to function.

And then there was another time, I don't know if they did the same thing to Jack or not. No, I can't remember. but at one point I remembered laying on a table. And there were two beings at my shoulders behind me and two at my feet and two next on either side. And I remembered thinking, I mean, I was terrified. And I didn't trust these things.

And so at one point I'm almost ashamed to say, I thought, you know, maybe if I kill one, I can create a distraction and get out of here. I can escape. And as soon as I had that thought, because I had these really like thin pencil-like necks, these like thin necks, I thought, oh, I could get my hand around there and just...

And as soon as I had that thought, the ones who were near my shoulders and on the side, they moved away so fast it was like a blur. And then one of the ones that were at, my feet just, it was weird. He kind of like reached up in the air with his arm. They had these long, long, thin, articulated arms. And when he came down, he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey. It was like a hockey puck, but it wasn't like perfectly round. It was more like an oval shape. And it had rounded edges instead of the sharp edges a hockey puck has,

but it was like the size of a hockey puck, maybe a little smaller. And they put one on the outside of each one of my shins, and then I couldn't move my legs. Like, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't move my legs. Did you ask them any questions about who they were and where they were from? No, I didn't. Yeah. Didn't even get a damn t-shirt. I mean.

No souvenirs. You know, like I said earlier, it was like I got a clear impression that these, whatever they were, They were following a procedure. Yeah. It was, you know, step one, step two, step three, step four. I don't remember them putting me in any machines. Jack, they got a lot more out of Jack than they did me because I was like so terrified all the time that Ray thought I was going to have a seizure.

So they had to keep bringing me out of the hypnosis so I wouldn't have a seizure because I would be like freaking out during these sessions. But it was almost like the beings were in. some sort of automated assembly line and they were following. In a sense. In a sense. They weren't totally automated. Just a footnote about what Jim had just mentioned about these discs being placed on his ankles.

On his legs for several years thereafter, I don't know if it's that way now. Hair didn't grow there. It was like a bald patch on its waist. Oh, really. And his identical twin brother Jack had tumors growing. the exact spots on his legs. What? Tumers.

Tumors. Benign or? We never knew because the tumors were removed at the teaching hospital where they removed in Vermont. Their pathology department was unable to ascertain what type of biological they were looking at. So they sent it to the Air Force Institute of Pathology down around Washington. Washington, D.C. It was signed for by a major, or no, by a colonel, a doctor who was a rank of a colonel,

because they have one of the best pathology science labs in the world. Got it. Yeah, when they remove this thing on its shin, it looked like a piece of chewed bubble gum, pink in color, hard. and they said in the report that it resembled a type of growth that is common when you have bone marrow taken out of a bone. You get this kind of tissue that grows on the wound. That's what they said they didn't know what it was, but that was the closest thing that they could describe it as. Whoa. Did any of you guys end up with any implants? Anything inside of your body? I don't think so. I used to have a head of hair. Does that come? No. Oh, okay. I have like a small punch biopsy scar up near my scrotum that I had never known before. If you were to take like an old

pencil, the ones that had the brass barrel and the rubber eraser in them, pull the eraser out and stab it into something, to take a plug out. That's the size diameter and very shallow, maybe about not quite an eighth of an inch deep right here on the inside of my leg. You described the beings as clinical, Very clinical, yeah. We were like the chimps and they were like Jane Goodall.

So they were about their business kind of. Yeah, right. The best analogy I can come up with is like when scientists go to the, you know, Arctic and they see a polar bear and they dart him. And then while he's anesthetized, they measure his teeth and look at us, you know. Yeah, what's the polar bear got to say about what happened to it? I remembered when under the hypnosis, Like the way I saw things was weird.

It was like I had tunnel vision. I could see clearly you. But out here, everything was fuzzy and unclear. Did all of the hypnotic regressions line up? Because all four of you did hypnotic regression. Yeah. Over a period of almost a year. Do you have the audio?

Ray certainly has, I don't. Yeah. Would I be able to? There's some of the hypnotic regressions are word for word in his book. Would I be able to listen to the audio? You'd have to get Ray if he even still has that stuff. Okay. But if you do go to the library or get a copy of his book, the Alagash Abductions,

it has direct quotes from the regression. Okay. Questions as well as our responses. And their analysis. And their analysis of them as well. It's the best book on the case. Did John Mac oversee any, or did John Mac review any of the hypnotic regression audio or any of the material there? I don't know what John did.

I'm sure he must have over the years because we've known John for many years, over 20 years. Yeah, over 25 before he died. After we had, after Ray had gotten finished with his investigation, I was, he said it, because during the investigation, he said, I don't want you to read any books, I don't want you to talk about it to one another or really anybody else because I don't want to, like, pollute. Yeah. Well, hopefully now he would, you know, after having written his book, hopefully the audio, the raw source material, he would sort of open source because I think if anybody, you know, if anybody should be in possession of it, it should be you guys to be on.

I mean, we could have purchased the complete manuscript, I mean, and that includes all of the hypnotic regressions transcribe verbatim word for word. But, you know, that thing was like literally almost a foot thick of paper. Now we have a little thing called AI. And you run it through and you just say, you know, describe, you know, these accounts. and give us a summary and then you can query it. And so I think it would be really cool to get these things kind of digitized and, you know, and then run it through the AI and you'd be able to ask it questions and stuff. Sounds like you found a project for yourself.

Oh, I'm ready. Let's do it. Yeah, yeah, I'll try to get in touch with Ray and that'd be cool. Fascinating. What was John Mack like? I am a long time, you know, admirer of his, obviously, you know, rest in peace. Well, I went to his support group for a while after Ray was done with his investigation. And Jim, real quick, just for the audience, for basic context, John Mack was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department.

And a brilliant guy. He actually even wrote the Pulitzer Prize winning, I believe Lawrence of Arabia. Yeah. He was an expert on him. The prince of disorder. And as really kind of a mystic in his own right, but also obviously. academically as credential does it gets. And towards the end of his career, he started to, because he was a clinician, see people who had missing time and get into the whole, you know,

alien abduction phenomena and was actually childhood friends serendipitously with Bud Hopkins, who was this, you know, amazing aggregator of a lot of these experiences himself. So go on. Yeah. So anyway, my impression of John when I first met him was I knew that he was, psychiatrist. And he was affiliated with Harvard and he had credentials up the kazoo. And so when I went to his support groups, I noticed that they were in my, from my perspective, I saw two different camps of people. One camp, which I considered myself a member of, was the nuts and bolts.

I called it the nuts and bolts. You know, I want to see physical evidence. I want to see physical beings. And then the other camp was more of a like people who thought that they were most, that their experiences were more ethereal or multidimensional beings that weren't physical, but communicated. More of a consciousness-based. consciousness based and that these people seem to think that the aliens were our saviors,

that they were going to save the human race and they were here to uplift our consciousness to a level where there's no more hate or war and all that stuff, which was fine. I didn't have a problem with it, I mean, but I did notice that, and I think John was more the second can because of his training as a psychiatrist. He, you know, because what a psychiatrist's job to do, their job is to heal people. You know, and these people all had like serious problems dealing with this stuff. It's like even though they, even though we all believe that we actually, that these experiences were real for us, it still creates all kinds of psychological problems, you know, how to deal with other people who don't, who think you're crazy.

Yeah. Or I think you're, you know, subhuman for some reason or something wrong with you because you have these beliefs that are out of the box. Mm. And so it's, it, my impression of John Mack was that he saw it as his mission. His mission to help these people become, you know, self-actualized. Mm. Where they could be, they could live with their experiences without pain or fear or anxiety. Kind of reintegrated back into society and probably simultaneously.

And still be able to live with their experiences. Because that was the difference between him and the rest of the community, the rest of the psychiatric community, the rest of the psychiatric community, especially at Harvard, which is why they tried to kick them out. Yeah. Was that, no, these people are, you know, they're lunar. There's something wrong with these people.

And John was saying, look, I've given them every kind of psychiatric. and psychological tests I can think of. They're all coming out as normal people. And neither of you had any kind of mental health history prior. No, the only mental problems I had was from the seizures. Because I'd have auras, you know, I'd smell things or hear things. How many beings were on the craft? Well, hard to say.

Yeah. Yeah, it really would be because there were people or, beings in the like control room area that we were ushered through on her way into the exam area and as we left we passed because that was where I inquired about their power system your propulsion system and so you've learned some stuff directly from them about the propulsion system or well I was explained the way you would explain something to a a six-year-old, that it operates in a similar fashion to the way a submarine can work at different atmospheres in the water, different levels by the amount of air that it keeps

in its inner hull to maintain that depth. And they could match gravitational fields. And so that was the way they were sort of exhumed. Examining example A to what we do. This is the way your submarine works. This is the way our craft works when it's in a planetary gravitational area. So like you mentioned with the submarine, you have a certain amount of air between the inner and outer hull, which manages the depth. And you're saying that they're doing something similar where they're modulating.

Gravitational fields. Interesting. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. Well, think about that. I'll mull that over. Well, I mean, it's just like we can do things magnetically where you take the two very powerful magnets and you have the same polarity. You have all this resistance if you try touching them to one another. And their ability was to match and a gravitational field to propel them away from a denser field to a less dense field. I don't know.

That's the only way I can think of. Yeah. Did you have any sense of where they came from, why they were taking, you know, samples from you guys? No, no. No. It's interesting because of the kind of, you know, gammy, you know, know, semen and egg sample thing comes up a lot. That's very common. It's almost like there's some intergenerational alien breeding program. And that's kind of where you end up with a lot of

these guys. Don't we do the exact thing, same thing to animals? Sure. On our planet. Yeah, we domesticate animals all the time. We breed them. We create new species. We do the same thing with people and like, you know, dynasty families. It's wild to think that. But it's true. And sometimes I think about these gray alien beings, and you think about what an evolutionary biologist would say a human is evolving into, given that we're being domesticated right now, that is not a controversial thing to say. We are, you know, testosterone is dropping off a cliff. Spirm count is dropping off a cliff for men. We're losing, you know, the melanin in our skin. That happens over a long period of time. So you end up with these beings that, you know, they lose the melanin in their skin. their prefrontal cortex is larger because decision making is probably more important with the advent of, you know, the AI white collar work age. Their ears and nose become vestigial. We're not hunter gathering.

Their eyes become more slit-like because we use more screens. And their bodies are sort of wiry and spindly because our physical bodies become less important. And they develop some sort of, you know, latent telepathic power, which you're now seeing, you know, the telepathy tapes and like, you know, people starting to. to lend more rigorous scientific credence to the idea that maybe we have this mind matter sort of thing. And so they've selected for all of the stuff that you would expect humanity to select for. It's very interesting. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I've heard from some people at some of the conferences where they believe that they're actually us from the future. Yes. Yeah, that exactly is a guy named Mike Masters. And then I somehow think that, you know, that's a really interesting theory that's important. and then it's somehow too simple. Like there's something else going on too, you know. But it's always hard to theorize.

The problem I always have is the interdimensional stuff against the physical. I mean, if they can travel interdimensionally, why do they have craft? What do they need a craft for? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like what? Yeah, it's almost like some of these things are symbolic memes that change over time. And that would be the Jacques Valet idea. Yeah, I mean, are they, is that craft that we saw really something physical or just something they wanted us to see as physical?

I don't know. Did any of you, so, okay, so the physical evidence would be like the ankle, your hair not growing around your ankle, your brother having tumors in the same spot? Tumors in the exact same spot. Anything else as far as like a physical, you know, remnant of the experience? Well, one of the things that. has always fascinated me personally was the fact that all of us, or the three of us,

most certainly had major changes in the direction of our lives and our artwork after the Aligash, where I was training myself to be a school teacher to work with children teaching art I ended up becoming a medical artist working with medical scientists, medical researchers, and being aware of all kinds of new technologies. The technology I mentioned that they used to look at our chests or at our torsos.

When I was a medical photographer, I would use ultraviolet light sources, an ultraviolet film, infrared film, and infrared light sources to photograph human bodies. Because with ultraviolet light, you can see through the skin and see the blood vessels much clearer than you can with your naked eyes. So we use magnetic fields to look inside the human body now to look at soft tissue. Your eyes. Your MRIs. Prior to that was your x-rays and then CAT scans, then you can use ultrasound sonic waves.

Tomograms, the whole nine yards. All these different radiological tools. So I was talking with a physician about this And and he said, well, he said, It's just like when, you know, defibrillators first showed up in the world. You know, they were these, you know, experimental paddles that you touch the heart or, you know, to restart the heart. the hearts function and that all of these technologies that these beings have were slowly catching up. I mean, if you stop and any rational person stop and think, in 1903, which was 123 years ago,

two bicycle builders from Ohio did the first manned flight not a glider they weren't gliding from a high elevation to a different elevation or a different location they took off from a low elevation and landed at a higher elevation that was flight sixty-six years after that we were walking on the moon in 66 years. Now, these entities, these beings that we don't know where they come from, they have science that's, you know, even patten us on the back saying thousands of years ahead of us, they might be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us. The Milky Way galaxy, there are more stars and planets in the Milky Way galaxy than grains of sand on planet Earth.

That's what I've been told by astrophysicists, and that is a number that just is almost incomprehensible for me. that the technologies that we have and we're developing, like sound technology without speakers, bone conducting headphones. Yeah. Send the vibrations through your cheekbones. And I hear better with these than I do listening to people. Yeah, it's fascinating.

You can bypass the ear canal through vibration. Yeah. Beethoven went deaf famously and he would chew on this rod and that would allow him to hear once he went deaf, which was obviously very important for him as this amazing composer. Speaking of very advanced technology, maybe the most shocking thing that you said, Charlie, right before we started rolling, which I got so excited about is I've been researching this guy named John Norsin. Yeah. And he is, you know, this interesting engineer who has this lockheed patent. for essentially how to fly a UFO with your mind, how to use sort of biofeedback from the brain

in order to remote control, remote pilot a craft. And he talks about brain prints, the idea that we have fingerprints, but you might also have a unique kind of, you know, electromagnetic signature, just like iris or whatever. Yeah. So fascinating guy who seems well ahead of his time,

and I have to think if there is, you know, legacy UFO crash retrieval program, which I do believe, they are either tracking him, you know, and he's now since, you know, he's passed away, but they were either tracking him or they were working directly with him would be my guess. And so this is fascinating because you said that John Norsing, you spoke to John Norsen, and he was at Alagash in the 19, in 1976,

in August, when you guys were there and experienced your abduction. Is that what he said? He read our report to the Ranger that same day. Mm-hmm. That's what he told us. Whoa. He read your report to the Ranger that same day. And what did he say he was doing there?

He said he was doing a TTR, tag, trace, retrieve exercise with a subcutaneous device that they were testing that they could monitor. They could monitor field agents. You know, if we tell them like blood pressure, heart rate, that sort of stuff. So he would-location. What exactly? He would put like this like RFID chip or something on some other military folk and they would sort of, you know, go off and out into Alagash and they were testing to see how well they could track these people. They could track them. Exactly. That's so fascinating.

That's what he told us. And does any part of you guys think that, because, you know, I think about some of these. narratives with like, you know, UFOs showing up around nuclear sites. And I don't know. It might not be a coincidence that you're, you know, you're in the Navy in a nuclear capacity. Well, there's a nuclear air force base or was at the time in the 70s up in Northern Maine. What was the name of that base? Do you remember?

Oh, who wasn't an Air Force guy? Loring. Loring. Loring. Loring Air Force Base. Yep. But this was near, was it near Alagas? Yeah, 90 miles away from Alagas.

Oh. Okay. Interesting. In Northern Maine. And it was a secret nuclear base. They had an episode. It was either 1975 or 1976 where craft were coming over the base and these laser-type beams were coming out and they were mapping the nuclear stockpiles. And this is around the time that you guys had your experience. I don't know if it was around the same time.

You said 75 or 76. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's around the same time. Yeah. Well, there's like many reported incidents over our nuclear missile sites where these craft would appear above them. And then all the missiles go offline. All their computers shut down.

Yep. And they go into a massive freak out. Freak out. Oh, yeah. I've interviewed a lot of those guys firsthand. And I think they're all legit. So 90 miles away, you had this Air Force base. They reported UFOs showing up within a year or two of your experience with lasers shooting out of the UFOs seeming to sort of, you know, track or do.

Well, they were definitely mapping the bunkers. And that's a common thing you hear, yeah, that they're sort of, you know, testing the tip of the spear of human defense and, you know, knowing, you know, either to protect ourselves, protect their resources, you know, some of the people in the national security state say there might be, you know, doing ISR and doing recon, I don't know. Oh, I mean, I don't believe that. I don't believe that. Yeah, yeah. I don't buy the whole, the idea that they're a threat. And, you know, I think they're, they, oh, if they wanted to do something, yeah, we couldn't

do diddly. That's right. And they would have done it years ago. They were, why, it's like, they are so advanced. It's like, yeah, why do they need to, like, you know, play around with us before, before, you know, it's like, what, at what point in your ISRs? are, you know, recon, do you say, okay, we can, like, take these guys out? Like, they can, they can clearly take us out now if they wanted to. You could have taken it out a long time.

I mean, good or, yeah, you look back at artwork from the Renaissance era and you have a lot of depictions of, like, UFOs in some of these pieces of artwork. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's clearly it's a, across civilizations and across millennia phenomena. So if they were going to, you're going to, to threaten us. I mean, they would have done us way before the Neanderthal were bred out. Yeah. And that's another thing. A lot of people think the Neanderthal were killed by Crow Magnum and Homo sapien, sapien, which is what the species we are. But they got literally screwed out of existence. I want to stick with this John Norseen thing, because I think this is really interesting. So he was doing TTR, this sort of tracking thing of other, you know, fellow military combatants or something, seeing if they go out in the field and track them.

I believed them. I mean, he was, he's, I got to know John pretty good. How'd you meet him? We met him at a mutual friend of ours down in Newport, down in Newport, would bring together experiencers. And she's somebody that, and research. Was he an experiencer, Norseeing? No, he was working with an artist in Jamestown across the bay. What was he doing when you met him?

Do you know what his job was? John, I don't really know what his job was. He was telling us things. And then he said, well, I can't really tell you what I'm doing now because I would probably end up dead in some hotel room somewhere. And I was thinking. Exactly what happened to him. And I was.

Is he ended up dead in a hotel room? Yes, exactly. No way. Down Tennessee, was it? I don't remember. Somewhere I think it was. They claimed it was a heart attack, but he told us at Anz. Yeah.

He said, because he was talking a lot about stuff that everybody knew he shouldn't be talking about. Well, it just seemed like science fiction. Yeah, it seemed like that. I even said to him, you know, John. Isn't that a bit out of it? What? He was drinking. You know, I mean, everybody was drinking wine and he was.

What did he say? was his job title in the 70s, in 76, when he was at Alagash. Do you remember what he was? Primarily, the research function. Yeah, I think he said he was doing government research. Government research. He had to be working with the military because they were, you know, TTRing agents in the field. And no part of you guys thinks that your experience was some sort of smoke screen for, like, covert government experimentation.

I don't think so, no. I asked John that. You asked, you asked. I asked John that. I said, John, you know, is what we saw up there. And, I mean, did you, did we, like, stumble into something that we shouldn't have stumbled into? And then you nailed us and hypnotized us or gave us drugs or something to make us believe that we had this abduction experience to cover your butt. He said, no. And he believed in what he said.

Yeah, no, I could tell he was telling the truth. He said, we wouldn't do that. We'd just go away. No, I mean. Leave you with a story nobody's going to believe. Right. Sure. Yeah, exactly.

It's not like you guys have like had an easy time since you came out with your story. No, I almost wonder if the, you know, meta-phenomena phenomena of the UFOs showing up around the tip of the spear of human defense and ingenuity, they're showing up at nuclear sites and at particle accelerators and things where we are literally messing with sort of space-time. itself, you could imagine them maybe being interested in a, you know, chip tracking, you know, human experiment and them showing up around that. So, you know, I think the kind of easy, lazy, skeptic thing would be to say that, oh, it's a, it's a smokescreen for some MK Ultra thing. Yeah. But maybe the more interesting and possibly true narrative would be that their activities, which were seemingly covert, might have attracted the phenomena itself. Well, that's what John's, that's what John told me.

There's Alexander Graham Bell. Let's go down and listen to what he's saying. Exactly. But you're saying that's what John literally told you? Yeah, that's what he believed, too. That's interesting. That the experiments that he was conducting may have been just attracting these things. When did he, and he ended up dead in a hotel room?

I don't know what year it was. In fact, it followed a really weird email that I had gotten from him because he had contacted me via email. you know, he was a, he was an RVer. He was one of the early RVers. Yeah. And remote viewers. Yeah. And he had sent me an email and said, and some of the other people from Ans.

And he said, listen, I'm giving a lecture on my latest research at the Naval College in Newport. Do you want a, do you want a VIP pass to come and attend it? And I was like, oh, yeah. So he said, okay, I'll get it all set up. And then at the end of his email, you know, he was into, I forget what the term is for this kind of use of language. Semiotics. Yeah. He was really into that.

Yeah. And the last sentence in his email said, nor, he said, I, I RVed the upcoming lecture, John, not. heard nor seen. Whoa. And I remember calling Ann and saying, hey, Ann, like, what the heck is this last sentence mean? John, not heard nor seen. I don't know. He's in the semiotics and stuff. So, you know, not nor seen is his last name. But John not heard nor seen. And then just like two weeks after that, he was found dead in a motel room. So Jesus Christ. So that was some

sort of code where it's like he remote viewed his own debt. And he wasn't there. And he wasn't And this was code to say he's not heard nor seen. Yeah, I mean, what else could that mean? Oh, my God. I mean, what? This is nuts. And he probably was working on program stuff. Who knows? I mean, he was working at that time with this artist, this amazing artist in Jamestown. Duncan Lurry is his name. He's a sculptor, glass artist. But at that time, John was working with him on life, energy, is around like rocks and plants and things like that. Bio-Eternetics. Bio-energenetics. Yeah.

Very interesting. Very, yeah. Well, this is a wild and very interesting interview. I feel like we'd go on forever, but Charlie, you had, because you were in the Navy, you had a very interesting, you know, UFO experience that I want to get into. Yeah, in May of 1970, we were off the coast of Spain. doing what we had gone out there to do. And it was just after we've knocked off working for the day,

waiting for the call to evening meal, there were about 24 of us that went up on the main deck. I have cigarettes, kick around, kill some time until it's time to go eat. We had a commissioned officer who was, a lieutenant uh highest ranking uh enlisted which was a chief petty officer and then descending ranks from there and one of the guys said what the f is that and so we all kind of like turned to look toward the stern of the ship and just as i was looking back i saw these two lights coming toward us. I mean, faster than you could swing your arm from your shoulder to directly in

front of you and come to a stop. These things were going faster than that and came to a complete stop. And we observed them for almost two minutes, two full minutes. And one of these points of lighter spheres ascended so quickly that it went from like a point of light to a line and was gone. Just snip, nip, but less time than it did for me to say that. Snip nip, it was gone. And then about 30 seconds later, the other one did the exact same thing, and they both went vertical, straight up so fast, you just couldn't believe what you were looking at. So we turned to the officer that was there, and we said, sir, what the hell was that?

And he looked at the chief, then he looked at us, and he looked at the chief, and he looked back at us, and he said, if I were you guys, I wouldn't say anything to anyone anyhow, because no one's going to believe you. And this topic's closed. And with that, he turned and ran up into officer's country. And I've never forgotten that verbatim quote, you know, nobody's going to believe you anyhow. Well, I think- This topic is closed.

I think they believe you guys now because, you know, now you have directors of national intelligence, directors of the CIA, presidents saying we're looking into this stuff. Yeah, you got pilots using their cell phones to photograph freaking UFOs. that aren't from here. Yeah, it's, uh, the evidence is becoming pretty overwhelming. And I think the consensus is rapidly shifting. And, um, you said, uh, and this is, I think going to be also, uh, if we find

corroboration for this, really, you know, healthy vindication for, you know, Aligash as well. Oh, absolutely. May, 1970, USS Holland is where this occurred. Correct. And so off the coast of Spain. Off the coast of Spain. And this thing was seen on the starboard.

side and maybe it's still in the logs. So to anybody who has any experience with the Freedom of Information Act and knows how to, you know, send those requests, try to get this stuff out. Yeah, if you can access that stuff, I'd be certainly interested in knowing what was reported. Awesome. Can we talk a little bit about a little bit more about how this experience has affected our artwork? Sure. Because there were two things that changed. Well, we talked a little bit about yours. Just touching base. And a little bit about Jack's obsession about mathematics.

I mean, this happened immediately after we returned to Boston. And before we went to the Aligas, Jack was doing. Endangered species. Well, he was doing like really tight kind of illustrative silk screen designs. One of them is in the Museum of Art in Washington, D.C. Snakes poster and devil's. pup Yeah, I don't know

if the devil's pup fish is, but anyway, and then he was also doing these kind of like, um, uh, what kind of painting it is, abstract expressionist,

painting of, um, landscapes. That was the kind of work he was in. And then like, immediately after coming back from the aligash, he like just became obsessed with this,

this, like, all this kind of We're just mathematical stuff. He was building models of like Cozododekahedrons out of straws. Whoa. He was incorporating grids in all of his artwork

and in very incredibly intriguing ways. Whoa. And it was one piece that I really loved. I would like to know whatever happened to it. Toss grid salad. Oh, that's Craig, a friend of ours. Oh, Craig's got that? Anyway, and he was like, you know, we live together, you know, and I'm his twins, so like, no secrets.

And I'd be like, Jack, what the hell is going on here? You know, like, what are you doing? And he'd go, I don't know, but I have to do this. I have to do this. And, and like, he just like kept going and going and going. And years later, somebody came, our friend Mike Asherman came. to the house. This guy's like a brilliant...

MIT scientist. Um, uh, programmer and scientist. He helped them build their token mac at MIT. And he came over one night and he was looking at Jack's artwork. And he goes, you know,

I know what this is, Jack. This is, um, get this book, uh, Secrets of the, World Grid. World Grid and anti,

uh, anti-gravity by David Hatcher Childress. Hmm. And that, go to this. pay this chapter in here you'll see jack's what's the math behind all of this stuff what yeah and this guy's building tocomac yeah wild so it's almost like your brother was channeling something frontier science yeah and the same thing happened to me when i came back before i went up to the aligash i was making

production pottery i was making bowls and cups and platters and plates and things and teapots and when i came when I was like just days after this event on the Alagash, I had this. Epiphany. I mean, it was like an epiphany. It's the only word I can think of to describe it. All of a sudden, this thing came into my head fully developed that I could, if I worked with clay this way, I could do this like really unique kind of creations with clay that are, they were so far.

total opposite of production pottery. And I became obsessed with this stuff. I almost got kicked out of the program because of it. But I stayed with it and I managed to convince them that this was something legitimate that I really wanted to. Some of the most amazing, amazing artwork. And then in addition to that, I became obsessed like my brother on ancient architecture, places like Teltaywakan and Tijuana, Balbeck, and the temples in Southeast Asia, Angkor Wat, and Ankhore Tom, and the pyramids. And I just became obsessed because I had this.

You know, that's also common among experiencers. Yeah, I know. They become obsessed with the pyramid. I have a buddy, you guys might be friends with too, Mario Woods from the Ellsworth Air Force Base abduction experience, South Dakota, 1997. And he goes after, he goes, this is going to sound weird. but after my experience, I just became obsessed with pyramids. Yeah, so did I.

And I had this belief, which I still have. I believe that these sites, these structures, these architectural sites are a form of macrochip technology. That they're not just ceremonial places that people went and prayed to their gods. Yeah, I believe that. That they actually used these structures for some kind of purpose, a functional purpose. You know, because why did they have huge sheets of mica brought to Tayal-Tawakhan Sun Pyramid from 2,000 to 3,000 miles away in South America and then put them under the floor structures of the temples? I mean, Mika is using the electronics industry.

And so, like, why would, why would they do that if it's not decorative? And it's not just in the pyramid of the sun. It's in all the other pyramids in that immediate area. They all have those, they all utilize this mica. So, you know, mica is a, it's used as an insulator to make capacitors. Another point. Very interesting. Yeah.

And I've always, and that was like just something that... Creating strong electric fields. Yeah. I'm reading a book now. It's called Seeds of Knowledge, Stones of Power, I think it is. And I can't think of the author. I just started reading it this past week. Founded on Amazon where these researchers went to all these pyramid sites in Mesoamerica, Europe, Egypt,

And they took measurements of the electrical fields, field energies of these locations. And they claim in their argument in their book that these peoples, the Incas and the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Olmecs, were using these structures to make their seed more virulent. So they started doing tests at these same sites with bags of seeds. or whatever containers of seeds. And they found out that they increased yield per acre, like three to five times. It's like electroculture or something. Yeah. Ancient electric.

It's like bioelectrics. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. I hope people start to, you know, use the Freedom of Information Act to try to get to the bottom of the 1970 experience as well. be interesting. I'd like to know. And I want to give a shout out to the great James Fox for the very generous introduction here. And thank you both for your time. Well, you're very, very welcome. Spinning honor, Jess. Oh, my, all mine. Head to American Alchemymerch.com to grab

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