American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - NASA Doctor: "I Saw A UFO Hovering In THIS Secret Hangar" (Ft. Greg Rogers)

Episode Date: August 31, 2025

Our American Alchemist this week is Dr. Gregory Rogers. He shares his extraordinary experiences as a chief flight surgeon for the US Air Force and NASA, including a shocking encounter with a UFO in 1992. He discusses the implications of David Grush's testimony regarding military involvement with alien technology, the role of EG&G in UFO research, and the mysteries surrounding Flight 19 and the Bermuda Triangle. The conversation delves into secrecy, disclosure, and the intersection of science and the unknown. This powerful exchange challenges us to confront the hidden truths behind UFOs, the burdens carried by those on the front lines, and the urgent call for real disclosure that could reshape our understanding of reality. | Greg Rodgers | Contact ➤ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-gregory-rogers-former-nasa-air-force-senior-flight-surgeon-9727681bb?original_referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F Media ➤ https://www.newsweek.com/nasa-official-flying-saucer-ufo-aliens-2068382 | Thanks To Our Sponsors | HEXCLAD: Find your forever cookware @hexclad and get 10% off at https://hexclad.com/JESSE #hexcladpartner MUDWTR: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code [JESSE] at https://ambassadors.mudwtr.com/JESSE #mudwtrpod iRestore: Reverse hair loss with @iRestorelaser and unlock HUGE savings on the iRestore Elite with the code [ALCHEMY] at https://www.irestore.com/ALCHEMY -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Website ➤ https://www.jesse-michels.com/ Merchandise ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] #NASA #Disclosure #GregRodgers Chapters 00:00 Unveiling the Secrets of Aerospace Medicine 02:36 The Testimony of David Grush 05:30 Dr. Gregory Rogers: A Witness to the Unseen 08:30 The Role of EG&G in UFO Research 11:43 Flight 19 and the Bermuda Triangle Mysteries 14:52 Experiences Beyond the Ordinary 17:38 The Encounter with the UFO 20:51 The Craft: Description and Characteristics 23:31 The Implications of Reverse Engineering 26:43 The Aftermath of the Encounter 29:33 Reflections on Disclosure and Secrecy 01:11:22 The Early Fascination with UFOs 01:14:15 The Impact of 2017 and the New York Times Article 01:19:09 The Testimony of David Grush and Reverse Engineering 01:22:33 The Personal Struggles with PTSD 01:27:29 The Weight of Experience and Trauma 01:34:15 The Intersection of Science and Belief 01:39:57 The Limitations of Current Cosmological Models 01:48:07 The Future of Disclosure and UAPs 02:20:27 The Need for Meaningful Disclosure 02:28:32 Legacy and Recognition in UFO Discourse Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs to help him see if he can afford it. Co-pilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work.

Now, Hank has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Co-Pilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365Copilot.com slash work. So it's, what, 1992? 1992. I was the chief of aerospace medicine, and he said, I've got something to show you even you have never seen.

Wow. And when I sat down in his chair, there's a saucer. 20 feet across, was sort of like a modified egg. There were no rivets, no seams. But then later on, it rotated as clear as day. It said, U.S. Air Force. But then when I said, why would we build it in a design? like this. He looked at me and went, we got it from them. I flew helicopters and I flew F-16s. No vehicle I have

ever known of could obtain a 45-degree angle of attack without moving. So when these companies say, look, we made this thing. Look at how fancy it is. That's to get the people's attention so they don't look at this other thing that they're spending all the money on. Maybe you should interview me. In 2023, when David Grush testified under oath before Congress, he explained to the world and to our system of government a host of staggering revelations. The military has an alien craft retrieval program. There were bodies in some of these vehicles, and he also confirmed what had long been speculated, that some combination of secret military programs and private aerospace companies have developed reversed.

engineered versions of this alien technology. While many of you watching this channel might have thought, like me, that Grush's personal bravery and commitment to disclosing these truths was worthy of the utmost respect, it was unfortunate to see the tried and tested playbook of discrediting an ad hominem attacks that emerged in the wake of his testimony. Yeah, definitely experienced some really nuts stuff. I don't like throwing shade, but like Neil deGrasse Tyson, right? Oh yeah. He's made up his mind. I read his tweets and I'm like, dude, you have a PhD in physics? Where's your curiosity? I can't even believe.

There's no evidence that would convince an authentic skeptic. However, even within UFO world, there were some who questioned the fact that Grush had not personally seen these crafts, but was relying on the testimony of dozens of those who had, members of the military or government that he hoped would personally come forward and back up his claims. One man watching this testimony knew that he could be one of those to come forward. I thought I've got his six o'clock covered. To stand up in a similar way, with all of the risk of reputation and bravely break his silence about what he had seen.

Dr. Gregory Rogers, a recently retired chief flight surgeon for NASA and the U.S. Air Force, and former Director of Aerospace Medicine, has decided that now is the right time to tell the world what he had witnessed. in stunning, first-hand detail, that we have a craft that in some way or another didn't come from here. This wasn't something in the sky, off in the distance, or on radar coming out of the ocean. This was something in our possession. But this conversation isn't only about UFOs. It's about God, the universe, science, as well as life and death.

Dr. Rogers has been witnessed to the most confronting sights that most of us can scarcely imagine. And in this conversation, he bravely speaks about his PTSD and the memories he carries. And why he believes UFO disclosure and what he saw in our possession is the only path toward progress. So today I'm so proud to present this conversation with the brilliant Dr. Greg Rogers. This is an absolute honor. I have Greg Rogers here. You are another just extremely interesting witness who I've been trying to get on the show for a while. Thank you so much to Chris Letto Files, an amazing show around UFOs, and he's, you know, also a former pilot. And he does a really amazing interview with you.

So I recommend everybody go check that out. But he introduced us. And after watching your interview with him, I was just fascinated by what you saw and your background, which I think is really beyond a approach. And so I'm very excited to get into this. I'm very pleased to be here. This is an honor. Oh, it's a total honor for me. And I appreciate your courage in coming out and speaking out.

Before we get into that, just what's a little bit about your background? Well, I was a flight surgeon for the United States Air Force and became the chief of aerospace medicine at the 45th Space Wing, which included the Eastern Space and Missile Center, Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Patrick Air Force Base, and then also the Eastern Missile Range. But as such, we also supported tenant units that included a vast array of units, including we had aircraft from the ninth strategic reconnaissance wing that most people would know as U2s. And we had the Air Force Technical Application Center, which is a whole other story. but I did deploy to the South Atlantic in South America with Aftac. But we did search and rescue missions out in the ocean. If somebody managed to sink their boat and call in for help, we would go out and rescue them. So I had a wide range of duties.

Now, the one that most people find most fascinating was that I was the senior flight surgeon for the astronaut rescue and recovery team at Kennedy Space Center. So every time we had a space shuttle launch, I would climb in Jolly 1. We had other flight surgeons that would get in Jolly 2 and Jolly 3, so we would clear the box to make sure that there was no unwanted people into the downrange area at the time of. launch, but then the three helicopters with the three flight doctors on it and three sets of PJs, pararescue jumpers, were always sitting at the shuttle landing facility for any launch or landing opportunities for the space shuttle because nothing about flying the space shuttle is routine. Even at the end of its service time, it was still considered an experiment vehicle. Wow. So that's a pretty important role. I mean, you were kind of hands-on with people

inside the space shuttle at its kind of inception moment. Well, plus I helped to make other changes. As an example, when I first got there in 1989, do you remember the orange launch entry suits that the astronauts wore? Sure, yeah. Well, in their right lower leg pocket, they had two Kim lights, and they were both red. As soon as I heard that, I said, you've got to be kidding. What are you doing with red kimlights? And they said, well, we want to make sure it doesn't affect their night vision.

I said, forget their night vision. First of all, green kimlights are not going to affect their night vision. They're not bright enough. But we can't see the red kim lights on our night vision goggles when we're looking for them unless we fly right over them. You give them green kim lights. And on a clear night, we can spot them five miles away. So what I'm concerned about is my ability to rescue those astronauts and save their lives.

So it took me a year and a half to get NASA to switch to the green chemlights. That's a big deal. So you were the guy behind the switch from the red chemlights to the green chemlights. Yes. And in fact, after one of the modata exercises, that's an exercise where the astronauts would bail out. out into the Atlantic Ocean, and then all the rescue forces have to go find and rescue them, regardless of the day or night or anything else.

But Colonel Chokitis was the head of DDMS, which is the Department of Defense Man Space Support Office. And so the following day, when we had our debriefing, when it got around to me, he said, okay, Major Rogers, what are you complaining about this year? I said, I'm going to complain about three of the same things I complained about last year, because they didn't get fixed. And so one of them was the Kim Lights. And after me throwing a fit in that meeting,

it was only like two months later that we finally got the Kim Lights fixed. Wow. Crazy. Well, that's an amazing thing that you can take credit for. Yeah. Well, you know, people think of NASA as the smartest, greatest thing. Some of the NASA

managers wanted to make space suits and they did not want to involve the Air Force or the rescue forces. So they made these beautiful blue flight suits. You can still see astronauts having pictures taken in the blue flight suits. So when you

go back in history, you'll see that. When they showed it to the rescue forces, we all went, you've got to be kidding. Those are blue. When they bail out into the ocean, how are we going to see them? So even if you go back to like the first few launches, STS 1, 2, 3, 4, they had to go to Beal Air Force Base

and borrow the yellow spacesuits that the U-2 and SR71 guys fly because you couldn't fly with the NASA ones. So anytime, you know, go back and look at Young and Cripping in STS1, they've got yellow flights and spacesuits on you. Whoa. Pretty crazy. Well, yeah, no, you think of it as this kind of untouchably perfect, you know, organization. And I guess it's not that.

Yeah, well, you know, it all boils down to humans and human error. So, okay, so for context, for the audience, you're at Patrick Air Force Space. and Patrick Air Force Base in 1992. In 1992. That's in Florida, right? So you imagine you're at Kennedy Space Center. It started out as the Banana River Naval Air Station. And while it was the Banana River Naval Air Station,

flight 19 went missing. And so the PBI that also went missing looking for them took off from flight ops at Patrick Air Force Base. But it was the Banana River Naval Base. air station. And why don't you back up for a second, just give people context about what Flight 19 is? Okay, well, Flight 19 was a doomed set of aircraft because when they took off the lead pilot became confused. And so there are some areas out there that even on our maps while I was flying there, you can't trust your compasses because of

of magnetic deviations. And so that's part of what's some of the problem in the Bermuda Triangle, which was this was in. This is so interesting because I just met with a former NASA engineer out here. And he was like, look, I think a lot of UFO stuff's a little overhyped, but he goes, I can tell you definitively that there is a little patch around the Bermuda triangle, or like near there, where there is just tons of electromagnetic. magnetic anomalies going on. He's like, I don't know if it's like a portal or like what it is. Well, my personal belief is that there were probably in ancient, ancient, ancient times, metal

meteorites that landed under the ocean floor. And as we fly over them, you can watch your compasses go crazy. And then you fly two or three more miles and they settle down and you go right back to normal. So there are times that, especially with our pilots who know how to fly by instrument flight rules, they would just forget the normal navigation, continue on their path because they knew when they got to the other side of the deformation area that they could trust their instruments again. So what happened with flight 19? Well, they took off and they were going to go out and do a bombing race. Well, the lead pilot got disoriented.

Like I said, I talked to some of the guys that were in flight ops on that day, and they were laughing and said the lead flight pilot was arguing with his other guys because they were saying, we're traveling east. And he said, no, we've got to be in and around the islands near South Florida. And they said, no, these islands are the Bahamas. there were arguments about whether or not some of the crews would break off and say, this guy is going to kill us. And so these guys were listening on the radio to all of these Navy pilots arguing among themselves.

So finally, one of the guys said that two of the airplanes broke off and said, we're heading west because we are totally lost. But he thought they were still over the Gulf of Mexico. and so he continued to fly east. But he was confused. The weather conditions were bad that day. And so there were all sorts of problems. Well, when they lost contact with Flight 19,

they had this flying boat and it had two wings, but it could land on water. Well, they went out a few miles and they lost contact with them, but there was a visiting ship that registered an in-flight explosion at about the location where the PBY would have been. So because of the confluence of the loss of this flying boat and Flight 19, everybody heard the first big, great story about the Bermuda Triangle from that flight. Wow.

And so does anybody know what happened to Flight 19? They just lost contact. they were heading east and nobody knows. They only have limited amounts of fuel. Yeah. And when you run out of fuel, you're not flying anywhere. Right. And it was never found.

And it was never found. And then, you know, back on the base, is there speculation that, you know, all these sort of weird electromagnetic anomalies that you mentioned, you know, what do people think? Caused these things? There were discussion of all of these things, but we had areas. that we had marked on our maps that this is an area that you don't want to trust your magnetic compass on. And so we knew to either avoid those areas or account for the effect of the magnetic flaws

when you flew over that area. Fascinating. Do you, you know, what I've found just anecdotally is when I meet people inside the government or who've worked at, you know, NASA or the Air Force, you expect them to be less conspiratorial than people on the outside in the civilian world, right? Because, like, they sort of know more. Well, one way or the other. Often it's the inverse where they've seen a thing or two. They know that, you know, there's some weird things in our reality, like the, you know, Bermuda Triangle thing you just mentioned. And so that kind of opens them up to a whole host of

possibilities. Are there any other things outside of the core experience that we're going to get into in 1992 that you experienced in a sort of government context, you know, Air Force or NASA that really kind of widened your worldview? Well, there were a couple of just sort of transient events that we all looked at each other and said, you know, what was that? This one time we were flying out, I believe an aircraft had been reported, spotted in the water like 130 miles off the 110 radial from Cape Canaveral. And so as we're flying out there, the weather's kind of funny.

And so we had estimated what our time of arrival would be. And so we were flying straight and level. Didn't seem like anything was going on. But when we got there, we were 10 minutes later than what we expected. And so we thought, you know, man, we must have deviated from course or or something, but we're all sort of looking at each other like, no, it couldn't have been that. But, you know, it was just one of those weird events, but it's not like you're going to talk about it or report it. We're not going to include it in the demission brief. What do you think caused it?

It could have been that the wins we encountered, uh, made a difference, but it wasn't anything that we recognized at the time. Fascinating. So, um, what was the speculation? We all just looked at each other. Nobody really said anything. Uh-huh. We didn't speculate about that.

Yeah, that's also, you know, a cultural thing, I think, where it's like, you all look at each other, you're like, that was weird. And then you kind of move on, you're stoic. Yep. Well, I want to get into the core experience, um, which, uh, you've, you've had a lot of courage to, to come out and speak about. So it's, it's, what, 1992? 1992.

And what is your role and where are you stationed? Okay, I was the chief of aerospace medicine. So what does that mean? Okay. The 45th Space Wing owned everything at the Cape Patrick Air Force Base, Eastern Space and Missile Center, and some other things that we won't be discussing. But there was a medical group that was part of the 45th Space Wing. that was the 45th medical group.

So my colonel, the commander, answered to the general for everything to do medically. You know, if somebody got sick at the officer's club from eating something last night, well, we got to go investigate, you know, with something there. Just every kind of thing you can imagine. Did you manage a lot of people in that capacity? Or were you? I had a bioenvironmental engineer. I had a medical, a military public health officer.

And then underneath them were probably about 20, 25 people. But then I also was the chief flight surgeon. So I oversaw the flight medicine program. So I had a really good flight surgeon. surgeon that was there when I got there and she was wonderful. So she helped teach me the ropes when I first got there and helped run everything. But we also had to do everything else. Cape Canaveral Air Force Station is a large facility. And so there has to be a company that oversees all of the normal stuff like you would expect a town council would so somebody's got to

maintain the roads somebody's got to fix the traffic lights if they go bad but this company was called eG and g which is a major major military industrial corporation and so they oversaw all of normal operations of that. However, that does not reprise the U.S. Air Force from being responsible for it. So just like any contractor, you have to have someone monitor the contract to make sure that the contractors are doing the right things. So what was EGG responsible for on the case? They were responsible for all of the grounds. They maintained the buildings and did all of that kind of stuff. Now, then in this building, they maintained it, but it was leased to Lockheed.

This one was leased to Martin Marietta. Now, then the reason I say them separately was that Martin Marietta was separate from Lockheed at the time I was there. Only in 1995 did they ever join to be Lockheed Martin. So Martin Marietta was doing a whole bunch of other things. But every contractor there, Boeing, Raytheon, everything, they had to sort of lease their housing, their support, everything from EG&G. That's interesting. So EG&G had this prime contractor position on the base. Yes, they were the prime contractor for Cape Connect.

Navarro. And what do you, do you know, do you know, much about them because they, you know, they have an interesting history. They came out of MIT and Doc Edgerton. Yeah, EG&G is a whole story into itself. And, you know, I'm, I'm not going to touch that one. Guys, as you can tell, Dr. Rogers was keeping some information and speculation about the company EG to himself here. But this is one of those histories I can't resist unpacking. Because EG and G&G's role in the UFO cover-up might be far bigger than most people realize. So a quick history lesson. EG&G is most associated with one of its founders, Harold Doc Edgerton. He was a brilliant scientist at MIT, a close associate of the legendary figure associated with the UFO world

and the MJ12 and the father of the American nuclear program, Vannevar Bush. Doc Edgerton had developed a revolutionary use of stroboscopic cameras that along with other pioneering wartime technology ended up being used in the Manhattan Project. All of those amazing photographs of the initial microseconds of nuclear blasts, that was EG&G. From the start, they were embedded in the deepest military secrets. Remember, when a test nuclear detonation goes off, often all of the sensors get fried in the area. This is caused by an electromagnetic pulse. So the novel filming techniques EG&G had developed would have been crucial to capturing UFOs.

Because when the bomb goes off, you can't get in the first few seconds, there are no electronics that work, so you're not able to get any electrical readings or measurements so all you have to look at are the films coming back from the test. And we all know UFOs show up consistently around nuclear detonations. This would have given EG&G proprietary and early knowledge of the UFO phenomena. By the 1950s, EG&G was woven into the fabric of the Atomic Energy Commission itself. If you've watched this channel before, you will know that the Atomic Energy Commission has more than a few shady ties to UFO programs.

EG&G became the AEC's prime contractor and later filled the same role for the Department of Energy. EG&G essentially ran the Nevada test site where the most nuclear detonations occurred. They also worked side by side with Los Alamos. Pellemos, Livermore, and Sandia Labs, to develop and refine atomic weapons. The Atomic Energy Commission trusted EG&G with its most sensitive operations. They held the queue clearances and had intimate access to the depths of the atomic kingdom. They were present at the creation of the military secret programs, the development of the government's most sensitive tech, and they were managing the contracts and locations covering

these programs. EG&G also played a key role in one of the most compelling UFO stories to come out of the 1960s, something I've talked about at length here on this show, and an event tied to the story of Harold Malmgren, presidential advisor to JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. I'm of course talking about the Blue Gill Triple Prime test that occurred in October of 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. This was one of the high-altitude nuclear detonations that occurred in the Marshall

islands. And it was unique because there is a lot of documentation leading me to believe that a UFO fell out of the plume, the blast in the air of this test. They were so used to UFOs showing up around nuclear detonations that they called these objects tag-alongs. Well, guess what? It was EG&G crews aboard the planes filming that high-altitude nuclear detonation. Given that they were also deeply involved in managing a facility like Sandia Labs, where it was rumored that, the recovered debris was transferred. It would seem highly probable that EG and G were well aware of the existence of this exotic technology. So I said, well, what am I here to find out? He said, well, he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down. I'm looking at

sitting here on his desk, round rock, you know. So you're looking at like anomalous material. Yeah. Debris. Yeah. But debris or images? Debris. Wow. No, he said in handling. Wow, that's amazing.

I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them that they didn't, they knew it wasn't Russian. They knew it wasn't, in those days it was never going to be Chinese. They knew it wasn't a threat. So Dad said, yeah, we called it a tag-along. That's what? Tagalong, like, didn't you ask what it was? And he's sort of replied in such a way that I realized, nobody asked any questions at that time.

And they were probably encouraged not to ask any questions. When I saw this object, which I called a tag along. That's what you would call them tag along. Wow. And all of this would of course comport with EG&G's management of the most infamous. facility in UFO lore, Area 51. In the early 1960s, EG's Special Projects Division, based in Las Vegas,

had been trusted to handle personnel screening, site access, transportation, and daily operations. If you were hired for any black program at Area 51, your official paperwork and pay often had to come through EG and G. Even if you were working for the CIA or Air Force. They essentially became the operational gatekeeper for Groom Lake, running the commuter flights in and out, managing the security badge office, and controlling access lists. If Groom Lake and Area 51 was and still is, home to exotic craft, not of this earth, EG and G&G were the ones keeping that technology under lock and key, which brings us to Bob Lazar. Los Alamos officials told us they had no records of a Robert Lazzar ever working there. They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982,

phone book from the lab lists Lazar, right there among the other scientists and technicians. EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was interviewed for the job at S4, also has no records. It's as if someone has made him disappear. Whatever you think of his story, whether it's true, fabricated, or part of a carefully managed leak, it certainly supports EG&G's foundational role in the UFO story. See, Lizar said that it was EG&G that handled his background checks. and EG&G that flew him on those unmarked Janet flights to S4. He claimed that there were nine alien crafts at S4.

Even if you doubt him, the kind of gatekeeping he describes is exactly what EG and G specialized in. Stories that support the idea that EG and G manages large complexes, many of them underground, and that they are directly experimenting on or handling recovered UFOs have surfaced time and time again. For instance, in 1991, a caller into a Las Vegas radio show claimed he was hired to run electricity 3,000 feet underground on a certain test site, a job that came through Reynolds' electronics, an EG&G subsidiary. He also said that military personnel were working alongside beings that resembled aliens. And many hardcore UFO researchers have placed EG&G's name alongside Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop, Bechtel,

and a roster of private entities working on UFO technology. In 2001, a former Lockheed and CIA contractor went public saying that Lockheed is working on UFO technology and that scientists contracted with EG and G were organizing work in private labs in Utah. A year after that, an infamous meeting would take place between scientist Eric Davis and Admiral Thomas Wilson, who oversaw basically all American military technology at the time. In this meeting, Wilson expressed extreme frustration at a covert UFO reverse engineering program being hidden from him. And the meeting happened to take place just outside of EG&G's special projects headquarters

in Las Vegas. And in 2023, George Dapp was informed by a senior EG&G manager, Alfred O'Donnell, that they had recovered a flying saucer in New Mexico and had a live being that had human-like features. From the Manhattan Project to Bluegill Triple Prime to Area 51 and beyond, EG&G's fingerprints are everywhere in the UFO store. They don't just guard the doors. They manage the facilities where the technology is stored, where it's studied, and where the deepest layers of the UFO cover-up are kept alive.

And as you'll see, it's a pattern that connects directly to what was happening at Cape Canaveral, where Dr. Rogers was working. But before we get back to that conversation, Remember, for even deeper dives into parts of these interviews that don't make the final cut, check out the American Alchemy magazine on Substack. The mysterious flight disappearance of Flight 19 that Rogers mentioned earlier? We've got the full story there. So sign up today.

I'm putting the link in the description. Now back to Rogers' core testimony. Anyway, because they were operating, they also ran the healthcare clinics. And so they had a chief doctor, and so I had to over. oversee him. So I spent a lot of time with him. We, we were, buddies got along. He had been there for many, many years. And so he actually knew a lot more about what was going on than I did. So I would go and then he would say, hey, we've got new operations here, a new operation here, new operation here. I'm going to send my escort with you. And that way you can take a look at

what we're doing. So on this particular day, I went out to the first set of buildings. I went to the second set of buildings. I went to the third set of buildings. Well, we were only going to look at three sets. So while we'd gone into the clean room and come out, as soon as, because it's a clean room, you have to take your little hair bonnet off.

You had to take your gloves off. You had to take an outer jacket like a lebe coat off. and then you had to take the booties off of your shoes. Well, he had done it so many times that he said, okay, see you, doc, boom, boom, boom, and he was out of there. So I was taking just a little bit of extra time, so maybe one or two minutes was all that separated the EG&G escort

leaving the building, from me leaving that building, I thought. Well, as I left that area, I went through this set of double doors, there was a major that was standing there. And he immediately recognized me as the flight surgeon, but there were so many people that I did physicals on that, you know, I couldn't remember everybody. So I didn't even really recognize him.

But he was smiling real big. And he said, I've got something to show you even you have never seen. Wow. Now, then I believe the reason he said that was because with the Egypt, GNG contract, I went to probably 80% of the buildings on Cape Canaveral. The people in a specific work site for compartmentalization, they could go to that building and then they left, but they couldn't go to any other buildings. That way, we didn't have cross-contamination of people learning things that they had no need

to know. So he knew I went all over the Cape, you know, on top of everything else. For a lot of the different sections, you had to have specific ID cards. So at the time, I probably had like 12 different ID cards. He had one. So, but, you know, he was anxious to show me something. So he said, I got to show you this. So I said, okay, well, show it to me and, you know, let's get on with it.

Do you think he's trying to impress you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. What day is this? Do you know the date? No, I would say it was in like April or May. It wasn't, it was a hot day, but it wasn't quite fully summer. Was it midday? Was it midday towards the end of the day? It was probably, I would guess, about one or two o'clock in the afternoon. Before we jump into today's episode of American Alchemy and want to thank today's sponsor, Hex-clad cookware, aka the Pans I Did I Did,

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It shows a ton of support for the channel and you get a discount. Now back to the episode. So I'm anxious to get back to my clinic. Our clinic would close at 4 to 430. and so anything that had gone on while I was gone, I would have to deal with when I got back. So I was interested in getting back. Well, he took me inside this office that was there, and, you know, that didn't seem unusual. There was a door, and then there were two or three windows there, and they all had louvered blinds on him.

Well, as soon as he took me inside there, he shut the door and locked it. and then he closed the louvered blinds for the door, and then he closed the louver blinds for all of these windows. So I'm thinking, what's he doing? You know, this is kind of strange. Well, he sat down at his computer console, and so he turned it on, and he turned on his video apparatus, you know, computer screen.

And so I'm just sort of sitting there, talking, but he's talking kind of excited. So I'm mainly just listening, you know, okay, this guy's excited about something, you know, whatever. So when the screen finally came up, he did something, you know, to sort of fine-tune it, I guess, or something. And then all of a sudden he said, sit down here. So he moved to the seat next to his chair. And I sat down in his chair. And I sat down in his chair. And when I sat down in his chair, I looked at his screen and I was totally shocked. It was a closed circuit television feed. And it had no identification of classification, location where it was coming from, the time of day it was, anything about it. The screen was completely

clean. All I could see was this closed circuit television. How'd you know it was a closed circuit feed? Because that's what it looked like. Sure. You know, I'd seen dozens and dozens of them and you know, here's another one. And it was just like all of the others. There was nothing special about it except for what was on the screen. So, when... When I looked at it, there were two guys over to the right lower hand, and they looked like engineer types to me because they had on lab coats. This is in the frame on the screen. In the frame on the screen.

Well, over to the right, there were three guys, and they had Tyvex suits, I would call them now. And they were standing there talking. and right in between them, there's a saucer. I would say it's a flying saucer, but it wasn't flying yet. But there's a saucer 20 feet across. It was sort of like a modified egg. The surface was completely smooth.

There were no rivets, no seams, no windows, nothing that I could see. Do you know what color it was? Oh, it was pearly white. Pearly white. And was it an egg or was it a saucer? Well, it was a saucer that was shaped. You know, an egg is a little off center. If you could modify the egg to where it wasn't off center, that's sort of what it would look like.

So it was like, yeah, I can totally picture. So it's like a pancake or something with some. Yeah, a really thick pancake. Yes, with some concave ends or whatever. Yeah, interesting. Okay. Now then there were, because this was pearly white, I mean, you couldn't see anything else on it. There were black rectangles that had been, I assume, painted onto the vehicle. So along the beam, about 60% of the spacecraft was above and 40% below, but it had this beam that went across.

from the 1230 to 230 point, there was a horizontal rectangle that was pure black. And then from the 330 to 530, it was pure black. And then as I saw motion later, I could tell that at 630 to 830, there was a horizontal rectangle that was black and another one at the 930 to 1130. So along the beam, these four rectangles covered most of the area. Now, then at what I would call the 3 o'clock position, there was a vertical rectangle. And I could barely see something at the 6 o'clock position, but as I saw it moving later, I could tell that there was the same rectangle at 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock, and 9 o'clock.

Aside from that, it was just pearly white. I immediately thought, you know, this is a test bed program. You know, this is an experimental vehicle. And they've had to paint the rectangles so that they could watch the motion. Well, at the 12 o'clock position, there was something that I could sort of see. but not really see. But then later on, it rotated clockwise. And when I saw it, it was clear as day. It said U.S. Air Force. And then just above that was an Air Force flight insignia. And so the craft rotated. How did it rotate?

Well, it was initially on the floor. And then all of a sudden, it just lifted off, just light as a feather. If I had not been watching it, I might not have even seen it. It was such smooth motion. So now all of a sudden, it's floating three feet up. Well, the nose of it started to, it didn't have a nose, but what I'm identifying is the 12 o'clock position begin to rotate clockwise and went one full circle 360 degrees. Then it paused for a few.

moments and then it rotated back 360 degrees the other way so that it was in exactly the same place it had started but this had given me a complete view of the entire craft and you know if it did not have the black markings it didn't have the u.s. air force on it or the air force insignia it was so pearly white that even if it had rotated, I don't know that I could have detected the motion. So with those rectangles on there and the markings, I could see the rotation. And you saw U.S. Air Force. And I saw U.S. Air Force on it. And so these two guys in the room, what are they doing?

Well, everybody left before they initiated action. I should have said that. But this sort of like warning beacon went off and tells everybody, okay, get out of the way, we're about to do this. So it was like some sort of test or something. Oh, yes. I absolutely believe that this was the test of a prototype flying saucer. And I believe it was probably owned by a defense contractor and was not part of the U.S. Air Force inventory. Do you have any sense of which defense contractor might have owned it?

There was nothing that gave me a clue, so whatever I came up with would be speculation on my part. But like, I don't know, maybe EG&G, given that. Oh, no, no, it wouldn't have been EGNG. Okay. It would have been something like Lockheed or Northrop. Boyne Northrop. Got it.

Raytheon. Raytheon. That would have been a little bit of a big thing for Raytheon by themselves, but they could have certainly been in partnership with the consortium, you know, Martin Marietta. At the time, this is 92, Lockheed, and Martin Marietta had not joined into Lockheed Martin yet. So in 95 they did that. But somebody owns this thing, and I did not believe it's the U.S. Air Force. Every time, you know, when we wanted to have the F-117, we didn't start off with the F-1-17. Back in the 70s, we started with what's called the have-blue system.

And so it was a primitive attempt to try to show that we could do this. Once we had the have-blue system working and functioning, then the Air Force said, okay, we're going to give you a contract. We want you to build this many F-1-17s. And so they modified it and improved it and then made the actual F-1-17 and then the Air Force paid them for it and it went into the Air Force inventory.

So at that point, the Air Force owned it. But when it was half blue and it was the preliminary designs, The U.S. Air Force did not own that, even though it had U.S. Air Force markings. It was owned by Lockheed Skunk Works. And so you're looking at this craft. Do you have any sense of outside of the U.S. Air Force insignia on it, whether it is extraterrestrial or not from here or whether it is from here? When I saw this thing, I looked over the guy and I said, who would design something?

something like that and he said i can't tell you but then when i said well why would we build it in a design like this this is exactly what he did he looked at me and went we got it from them so i mean i don't have to figure out what that means but that that was exactly what he said we got it from them now then one of the characteristics of this thing was that as soon as it became activated, there were electromagnetic discharges across the surface of the vehicle. But I could not detect any sort of structure for what was producing those signals. You know, if you see a little patch on the side of an aircraft, you can say, Oh, either that's an electronic marker.

These days, we even have radars that are having a very small location. But there was nothing like that. This thing was... Nothing to generate the electromagnetic anomalies. It was pearly white. How could you even see electromagnetic anomalies around the craft just through... Well, first of all, I also heard them, but it was like little sparks just like this. Like static discharge.

Static discharges. And so it was going on all over. It was if the vehicle itself was charged up or something. Yes. The vehicle appeared to be making the electrical discharges. Were there any transformers or power sources? Well, at the top of the craft, there was a pole and going up from the pole there were three lines that impressed me as umbilicals

so they may have been feeding electricity to it they may have been feeding electrical controls whatever now then that's one of the reasons that i immediately thought that it was a contractor model because you can't fly in air or space with umbilicals tied to your craft. So I felt like that what this indicated to me was that on the inside, they did not have sufficient power source control mechanism, anything. And so through the umbilicals, they were having to feed this information into the vehicle to make it function properly. So if it was a more mature platform,

it should have had all of these things internal to the spacecraft without having to have umbilicals feeding into it to provide a power and information or whatever else it was. Did you get any other context? Did you say, where is this video porting into? or what do you mean we got it from them? Who are them? No, well, the thing is by this time, I had watched it levitate, rotate 360, rotate counterclockwise, 360.

It had moved left and right, forward and backwards. Really? It moved left and right. Did it move smoothly? Oh, yeah, very smoothly. It's just like if you're playing a video game for the first time and you've got an aircraft And you want to try out the controls to make sure it works right. Was it enveloped in any sort of bubble or something?

A lot of people say that. These electromagnetic discharges were audible. You could hear them and you could see them. But it was sort of like there was an electromagnetic cover on it, almost like a plasma shield that had formed on it. Now, when I think of it moving, if it was moving according to the sheer electromagnetic forces for it to rise up, those forces should have been aimed down. that's not what happened.

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exclusive deal up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code Jesse. That's right, up to 43% off with code jessey at M-D-W-T-R.com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with mudwater, because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. When I saw initially lift off the ground, there were maybe three or four electromagnetic signals generated each second.

A little just static sparky thing. But the thing is, they were totally random. There wasn't anything, you know, if you want it to move this way, you know, there's a bunch of them over here. It was moving, you know, when it was moving back and forth. Sometimes like when it was moving backward, I don't believe there were any electromagnetic discharges on that end of the craft. And I don't think there were really any on the opposite end. It was more across the top and bottom surface of the vehicle. So that caused me to immediately believe the electromagnetic discharges are there,

but the electromagnet discharges are not what is moving this thing. Do you have a sense of what might have been moving the thing? It had to be a force that I've. was unfamiliar with. Fascinating. Okay, so when this guy next to you is saying it came from them, do you get any more context on that? No, and here's why.

In like the next few seconds, the 12 o'clock position rose to a 45 degree angle. That's almost like the commander David Fravor thing. where it's like it goes boop, you know. Yes. Now then I flew helicopters and I flew F-16s. No vehicle I have ever known of could obtain a 45-degree angle of attack without moving. A helicopter will get a 45-degree angle of attack, no problem. But as soon as you do that, you're going to have the force vector point.

forward and so the rotor is going to move the opposite direction. Yep. So there's no vehicle that I know of that could obtain that 45 degree angle of attack. But just then, there was a knock on the window. So somebody said, hey, what's going on in there that the doors are locked? Well, man, this guy panics. He shuts off the computer and the console. He looks at me and says,

Don't tell anyone I showed you this. You know, I'm thinking, you just showed me a flying saucer. Who am I going to tell it to? So he goes over and he unlocks the door and this lieutenant colonel came in. And we were both majors, so he outranks us. And then there were two other guys. I think they were captains. And so the lieutenant colonel comes in and says,

what's going on in here? What are you guys up to? And so this major... Is the room just like dedicated to like feeding into wherever this UFO is located? Well, it's a computer, a set of computer consoles. There were four people. There were four computer consoles. It didn't look any different from any other four computer consoles.

But were you in the room alone with the one guy? I was alone with him for a total of maybe 15 minutes. Yep, yep. But as soon as they knocked on the door and opened it, now there's five of us in there. Before we get into that, one final question. You have any sense on the location of the craft, you know, where you're feeding into and this? No. Okay.

If I were to guess the Lockheed Skunk Works would be one of the tops of the list. Sure. Area 51 would be at the top of the list. Yeah. I would think Wright Patterson would be at the top of the list. Usual suspects. It could be a different location on Cape Canaveral that I don't know about. Could have been the Dugway Proving Grounds or Tweli out there.

You know, I have no idea where it is. But it also gave me no indications where it was. Yeah. Yeah, fascinating. Wow. Okay, so you, everybody storms into the room all of a sudden. So who's in the room at this point? It's you? So me, the major that showed it to me, a lieutenant colonel, and I believe it was two captains. So the major says, well, I had this skin lesion that I thought might be cancers, so I just wanted to show it to the dock, and that's why I closed the door for my privacy. Well, now, everybody, turns and looks at me and I'm sitting there, I just saw flying saucer. Yeah. I mean, this is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen at this point. But my mind is racing. If there had been any degree of classification that was indicated on that video...

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When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. I would have had to immediately report this guy because if that had showed classified and he showed it to me in an improper fashion. I'm reporting him, but it didn't say classified. So I'm looking at him, and then I'm also thinking, well, this guy couldn't have found out about it unless somebody showed him.

Now, if this lieutenant colonel showed him and I report it, then I'm also going to have to report the lieutenant colonel. I'm going to have to go up their chain of command. I'm going to have to go to his commander and say, they showed me a flying saucer video. Now then if they came back in here and said, well, put it up on the screen and nobody could find it. Nobody could find it. Then my story would make me look like an idiot.

And not only that, but when I got back to my clinic, I would have to go to my commander and say, Colonel, sir, sorry about that. But I just saw a flying saucer and I reported to security and to the chain of command. The general is probably going to hear about it and then it's probably going to blossom from there with all of the people that are going to hear about this flying saucer. So I'm sitting there thinking, you know, this is a career decision for me. So I just said it wasn't cancer. Everything's fine. I got up and left. Wow.

And I booked it out of there. I got in my car. Thinking on your feet. I drove 30 minutes down to Patrick and I'm thinking this whole time. And, you know, I have heard pilots and astronauts talk about things they have seen that they failed to report. Well, as I'm driving down Highway A1A, I'm sitting there thinking, man, I'm going to join him. Yeah.

I am not going to report this thing. So what, yeah, what makes you even higher conviction that that's the right thing to do? So obviously you don't want some big bureaucratic blow up. You don't want this guy to get in trouble maybe because he was just trying to impress you, but you also, you don't want to get like, you know, kind of drug through the mud about like what you saw and interrogated and that sort of thing. If I went back and said I saw a flying saucer, I have no idea what it would have done to my career. So, you know, in 1992, you just didn't report flying saucers.

It doesn't matter what you see. You can talk about it in the debrief. But when you write the debrief, you're not going to put that in there. Did you get the vibe that the lieutenant colonel or, you know, the captain had any sense of, you know, what that room. might be feeding into as far as footage of this, you know, UFO. Since the computer screen was off, when they came in, I have no knowledge then or now whether not they had seen that video. Right.

They might have seen it 30 minutes earlier and shown it to the major. Right. I don't know. Does any part of you think that this could have been some sort of elaborate sci-op? If so, it was one of the most random things ever. Right. Because that was the only time I ever went to that building. Yeah.

If I had been a little bit quicker in taking off my hair bonnet, my gloves, my lab coat, and my booties, and walked out at the same time as my escort, I don't think that guy. would have even broached the subject. And never would have happened. Hey everyone, Jesse here. Let's talk about something a lot of us quietly deal with. Hair loss. This is something that messes with your confidence more than you'd expect.

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Head over to iristore.com and use code jess-e-S-E for our show's exclusive discounts on the I Restore Elite. Please support our show and tell them we sent E. Hair loss is frustrating. You don't have to fight it alone thanks to Irestore. If I'm by myself, he mentions it. But if I'm with an EG-N-G-E-G escorts, I don't think he would bring it up in any way, shape, or form.

What do you think his incentive was to, because it's like he doesn't, he didn't have a prior relationship with you, right? He didn't know who you were, essentially, right? He knew who I was. He knew, I might have done his physical a year and a half before, but, but you guys weren't close friends. No, but it's like when you're an ER doctor and you're busy all day long. So you probably knew everybody.

You, you see the. people, but there are times that if you're really busy, someone says, what about the heart attack guy? Well, do you mean the first one or the second one? Sure, sure, sure. And then, you know, six months later, somebody comes up to you and Walmart says, hey, my shoulder's doing better. Okay.

You know, I don't know who that person is, but you took care of my shoulder. Remember, you gave me an injection? Yeah. So do you have, oh, well, yeah, I'm glad it feels better. It's, it's doing better now. Yeah, it's really doing good. So a lot of these people probably have asymmetric relationships with you. Like, they're very grateful to you. And then to you, it's like another number, you know, one of a thousand or whatever. So this guy, have you thought of what his motives might have been as far as showing you this, you know, camera feed? let's think about human basic nature. If somebody flips a pop bottle and it lands exactly on top and doesn't break and it doesn't fall over and they say, wow, look what I did.

Someone walking in mind and say, hey, look what I did with the pop bottle. We as humans, like to share things. There have been plenty of other times that when something happens, they say, hey, hey, Doc, I know you're not supposed to watch this, but I know you work on the space shuttle, so that's okay. And so, you know, when I was on the submarine, they took me into the sonar room. That's a great example, yeah.

They were not supposed to take me into the sonar room. Or let you drive the submarine. Or drive the submarine. But we're on a cruise, and they said, hey, Doc, we're not really supposed to show you this, but we want you to see how good our sonar is. And so they took me into the sonar arm and showed stuff. Well, they weren't really supposed to do that, but it's not like I'm going to go tell anybody what their sonar stuff is. So you think he was trying to impress you.

Oh, he was obviously trying to impress. And do you think on some level, you know, maybe he wasn't supposed to know about this footage, to begin with because he was just a major. Right? Well, a lot of times you could be a tech sergeant enlisted, but you have a reason to know what's going on. And so that text sergeant is read into a program, whereas the major is not. So the major may say, hey, what was that thing you were working with? And the tech sergeant says, sorry, sir, I can't tell you.

And off he goes. The point is seniority doesn't necessitates, you know, more information in all these cases. Especially, you know, it's very hard to shape the contours of, you know, some covert UFO program. But I've heard this many times of people who are superior in rank not being aware of the program and then middle manager types, you know, being in charge in many cases. For security, there's two things that you need. One of them is a sufficient classification that you have been. personally granted. And the other one is, it doesn't matter what your classification is. If you don't have a need to know, you're not supposed to know that. Did you ever see that guy again, who the major?

I never saw that guy again, and I assure you I never went back to that building. Wow. And since then, have you thought about, you know, I think EG and G is an interesting vector. You know, they came out of MIT, Doc Edgerton. You know, I think they formalized as a company. And, you know, and, you know, in like the 50s or so come out of the kind of atomic era and are responsible for a lot of interesting kind of deep black work for the for the U.S. government. Have you thought about them at all? Because, you know, another good example is Bob Lazar and, you know, the 80s was, you know, supposedly stationed at Area 51.

S4. He gets a job through Edward Teller, but he specifically gets a job with EG&G. And EG&G pops up elsewhere in 1997. You have Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who is, you know, under his purview is all, you know, technical capabilities of, you know, U.S. military. And he's meeting with Dr. Eric Davis, and they're in the EG&G parking lot. And he's, he's expressing extreme frustration that he doesn't have oversight over these sort of UFO programs. So do you think EG&G might play a part in the UFO story? G&G is all over the military.

For me to guess which contractor had the precedent on which project, I couldn't know. But EG and G had their fingerprints all over Cape Canaveral. They were the prime contractor. Everybody functioned with EG&G, regardless of the other contractors. and what they were doing on the Cape. That's so fascinating. Yeah. And they were interested also in psychic research.

They were doing some really out there stuff on the kind of psionic, psychic parapsychology side, and then also on the exotic propulsion side. They were also in charge of atomic testing. And if you think about where UFO show up, they show up around, you know, sensitive nuclear sites. one example is I interviewed a guy named Harold Malmgren. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he was a presidential advisor for JFK, Nixon, Kennedy, and Ford. And, sorry, he was a presidential advisor for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford.

And he was in charge of costing these sort of, you know, ICBM defense systems for basically taking out Russian ICBMs. and it was this sort of nuclear detonation combined with this x-ray projection that would take out sort of anything in its vicinity. And EG&G was responsible for getting the footage of these atomic tests. And so, you know, I found that to be very fascinating, that even they were involved back then. And, you know, literally the optical footage around the most sensitive atomic tests, where, especially if, you know, nuclear detonation is taking out all the surrounding electronics

within, you know, an EMP, you know, the optical footage is going to be really significant, especially for spotting anomalous things like UFOs. So I often think maybe EG&G plays this really important role. Well, on Cape Canaveral, it was this big, large facility just to get into, Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, you had to have a clearance in a need to know. So we would have people like three-star generals that are on vacation in Florida drive up and say, hey, I want to come on and take a look at this stuff. And so the enlisted guard at the gate says, I'm sorry, sir, but you do not have

authorization to enter this facility. and they would sometimes argue with them, but guess what? The security guard always won. Well, there were lots of other things on Cape Canaveral that weren't exactly directly related to the space program. But once you put it on Cape Canaveral, it has a very high level of secrecy. and if anybody asks, you know, it could, I'm not even going to use a subject as an example, but it could be for Project X. Now then if you put Project X in New Mexico, they're going to wonder what it is.

If you put Project X on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, they can always say, oh, well, it's just related to the space program. So we had other projects that were on Cape Canaveral, but anytime someone says Cape Canaveral, they say, oh, well, it's a space program. Well, maybe, maybe not. But there were other kinds of things that we had operating that weren't exactly space program related. Interesting, some more kind of exotic science or something.

okay well I can tell you you might know a thing or two more than what you're saying but well I would hope that I knew a few more things than what I say yeah I shouldn't be talking about everything yeah no for sure so what made you want to come out so it's been you know what almost 25 years you know since since that event and you came out you know it was it a couple months ago now or Yeah, I retired from the Department of Defense on the 30th of April. And so on the- Congratulations. Yes, thank you.

I still haven't gotten all my pay straight. So if anyone in the pay department is listening, make sure I get my retirement pay straight down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He won't do any more interviews if you just pay him now. I'm just kidding. Yeah, I don't want to link those two things. I'm joking. On the 4th of May, Josh Boswell came out with an interview from the UK Daily Mail.

And then Ty Roberts came out with one for both the International UFO Bureau and also for Total Disabilities. closure. He's part of both of those. You know, I need to say that I am on the board for the International UFO Bureau. I'm from Oklahoma, so guess what? It's headquartered in Oklahoma City, so that comes out very handy. Were you into UFOs before the sighting at all, or before this, you know, security camera sighting? You have to go back to 1916. You have to 1969, I believe it was. And when I read Chariots of the Gods by Eric von Donakin, I was hooked. Yeah.

I was hooked for life. And my wife was even more hooked than I was. So she has always been fascinated with all of this stuff. Would you talk about it on the base with people? Would you express interest in UFOs? We would sometimes talk about things of that. sort even though even if someone walked into the room and said what were you just talking about we would have said baseball yeah and you don't think you were kind of psychologically profiled and

tracked and you were like they were like you know what doc rogers he loves the UFO thing and then you know they they try to show you a thing to corroborate your belief or something um i had no idea I was going to that building that day. Yep. My EG and G-N-G escort knew I was going to that building that day. But. Yeah, so could it have been this EG-N-G-coordinated? Yeah.

But he would have had to have done something more to make sure that he did not walk out at the same time I did in order for that major to speak with me. because that major knew me as a flight surgeon, but he would not have known the escort as an EG and G&G guy. And if we had walked out at the same time, I don't think he would have brought anything to my attention. Yeah, and also it is a good question to what end? Like, what do they want from that? You know, it's a, wow.

Okay, so, yeah. You know, the average person, they look up in the sky, They think they see a UFO. They take their camera. Their family comes home. What are they going to do with their family? They're going to show it to everybody they don't. That's what we as humans tend to do.

And so wanting to show something unusual to other people is pretty common. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. Often Occam's razor, on a lot of these things. It's just... It's time to refresh your yard during spring backyard days

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Now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies to home depot.com. slash price match for details. The human aspects of it. And like people talk more than they should. They want to impress other people more than they should. And, you know, it's the human fallibility explains way more than, you know,

people want some sort of, you know, super coordinated sciop or whatever. And that's just often not the case. So, okay. So, so, you know, two decades plus go by. Um, you retire. And what makes you want to, want to come and speak out about this? This sighting that you had. First of all, everything changed in 2017.

When the New York Times article came out and I saw the videos, having known pilots for so many years, it wasn't just what they were looking at. Even if I had not seen what they were looking at, when I heard the tone of the voices of these pilots, as they're talking back and forth to each other. Like, wow, did you see that? They're not watching anything ordinary.

No. I would recognize from their voice, oh my goodness, they are seeing something they have never seen in their life. Because you've probably heard audio, tons of audio, from pilots. Well, I've flown with pilots. So, you know, if we're in a formation and all of a sudden, you know,

some strange things happen, you know, we talk. about it. One time... Did you ever seen a UFO in the air with any pilots? No, I haven't.

Okay. But as an example of something that happens, I was in a Black Hawk flying in Germany, and we were flying low level, which meant that as we came

over the hill, we were supposed to be within 25 feet above ground level, AGL. And so we had come over this hill, and was going down into the valley,

and then there was a hill on the other side. And this was the last hill before you get to the Rhine River Valley. And just on the other side, there was an air defense artillery battery. Well, this F4 Phantom that was using anti-radar missiles, harm missiles, and was performing this kind of stuff, was not supposed to be in this airspace, but he came screaming down this valley at probably 400 knots. Well, we're just coming down,

and he flies between us and the ground, and then he books it up into there because he knew, man, he just nearly died. Well, the problem is we just nearly. died too. His jet wash hit us and blew us up and rotated us. And so now we're across the valley and we are still getting a downward movement because of the pressure that his aircraft made. Well, on this side, the hill is coming up. So we deviate to try to gain as much air as possible. So we can't go straight.

We go right into the mountain. So we bank as hard as we can. And when we get up to right here, there was a road. And so they have 100 foot high trees there. But where the road was, it was clear. And so we passed that road at probably about 5 foot AGL. If there was a car, we would have hit it. but the trees are coming up on both sides

and so we went between the trees climbing up. Jesus, we nearly died because of what that F4 pilot had done. Now then as soon as we get up, I'll include this because it's funny from my standpoint. As soon as we climbed, we were not staying low level anymore. We were putting some air under us. And I made the comment, gentlemen, I want you to know my first.

flight suit is dry. And the crew chief said, well, Doc, I sure wish I could say it. He had voided his bladder. But the thing is, as soon as we got back to the base, we're telling everybody this story. Well, it didn't involve anybody else. There was really nothing to do, but it was an interesting story, so we were telling it. So, yeah, that sounds like a close call. Oh yeah, yeah, there's been several times that God was looking out for me or we wouldn't have made it. Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating. And so, okay, so you, so 25 years later, you see this article come out in the New York Times,

you see three Pentagon videos getting, you know, kind of released that are unidentified by definition. And that sort of emboldens you to start to think about maybe. Yes. At that time, I spoke to. to a gentleman that I respect very greatly. I don't want to mention his name. But if I mention his name, boy, would you know who he was? Why don't you want to mention it?

I had, you know, I'm getting dinged from people all over the place since I came out. I'm not going to dump on somebody else. Okay. Anyway, I talked to him for quite a while. And then the real impetus was when David Grush testified. Yeah. And he gave all of this expert testimony and then said, I know that we have reverse engineered craft.

I just don't have anyone who will come out and say it in this setting. Well, as I watched, I watch. the video multiple times. I thought, you know, I've got his six o'clock covered. You know, he said no one's come out and told their story. Well, if I come out, you know, David is exposed because no one will say that they saw a reverse engineered craft. So you wanted to back him up. So, you know, I can't confirm all of the other stuff he did.

But when, and then some of the government officials said, we have never had a craft like that in their inventory. And I was sitting there saying, what are you talking about? I saw it. So I decided, you know, when I retire, I'm going to tell my story whether they like it or not. and next time David Gresh speaks, he can say, look, not only do I know that there are reverse-engineered spacecraft, Dr. Greg Rogers testified to it. Well, he's definitely the tip of the spear, I think, in a lot of people's opinion. You know, he's provided, you know, hundreds of pages to the, you know, Inspector General of the Intelligence Community, Thomas Monheim, to the effect that there are covert reverse engineering programs. He's, you know, on C-SPAN talking to, you know, AOC, who's saying, do you have the locations of, you know, where these crafts are being reverse engineered?

And he says, yes, I have the addresses, and I will give them to you if you just get me into a skiff. So I think that's kind of a bold flag to plant, right? If, you know, if you weren't being honest. And I think so I think, I think, you know, all of his colleagues say that, you know, he's beyond reproach. And, you know, all have good things to say about him. He was National Geospatial Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, Air Force, Space Force. I think maybe just Air Force. I don't know about Space Force, actually.

But, you know, and I've gotten to know him pretty well, and he's just autistic attention to detail, literally, because he's level one autism. Well, that would be me as well. You have level one autism, too? Yeah, along with PTSD. Oh, wow. And the, I've written a book since I went out to contact in the desert because so many people were saying, you've got to tell these stories. So I've written a book. What's a book?

To be really ingenious, I decided to call it, we got it from them. And is it about UFOs? Yeah, it's about UFOs, but it also contains additional stories from my background because I want non-military people to sort of feel like what, a military. career is composed of. Yeah. And between each section, I tell a different one of my stories. And right before the final chapter, I just came right on and said, I have PTSD.

Lots and lots of soldier sailors, Air Force Marines, have this. And too many people see it as something. that you've got to hide, that you can't admit what's going on. So I wanted to spend one whole section trying to convince people, look, if you have PTSD, get help. Yeah. Here are things that can help you. But, you know, with the way people,

treat whistleblowers. If I have PTSD, someone's going to bring it out in a negative way. So I might as well beat him to the punch and just say, look. Well, good for you. Well, that happened to David Gresh. It's crazy. But they basically leaked his medical records from the, I guess the police department locally in Virginia leaked this, you know, a call that he had because, you know, he, one of his friends was mortared right next to him. Another friend committed suicide due to his own PTSD. He was an Afghanistan combat veteran. And he had suffered for him. He talks about it in this interview I do with him where he talks about doing, you know, heart rate variability, breath work and other things to really, you know,

reintegrate. So I admire your courage for, for talking about this. And I think you're right to to say it prophylactically because I can't tell you how many other whistleblowers I've broken who are in my opinion are sort of war heroes things they tell me off air really impressive things they've gone through and then people just go after their core credential they don't even go after the experience they go after their you know they act like they weren't like this one guy like wasn't a green beret or something it's like crazy it's like you know I know he was well you can have PTSD by um survivors remorse there was one guy when I was a very young doctor who was in Vietnam

and they were in a firefight and so they were trying to keep suppressive cover down and he had emptied his M-16 and so he put the next magazine in and he was just hesitating because man they're taking fire from everywhere well his sort of battle buddy guy was still firing next to him. And he paused instead of immediately returning fire. And while he

paused, his best friend got hit and killed. And so for the rest of his life, he felt like if I had given suppression fire, my buddy wouldn't have died. And so

I talked to him a number of times, but his family would say, you're a hero, and people would say all this kind of stuff. And yet, in his mind, he wasn't a hero. His buddy died because he hesitated. He was the least thing of a hero in his own mind that it could be because his buddy had died because he paused before returning fire. And that was something that that guy was going to live with the rest of his life. Yeah, I could see that eating away at you more than something having happened to you directly.

So broadly, is the source of your PTSD just seeing all these people in the medical context? Well, it's all kinds of things. Sort of the one thing that sort of stands out as a story was that we had an aircraft mishap where one of our pilots died. And so I had to go and collect urine samples from him, blood samples from him. I had to gather up the rest of his body and try to get as much of his body together as we could before we shipped it off for an autopsy. And so this was out in a field environment. And so I got back to my tent because a bunch of people saw what happened.

So I had to counsel all of these other people. So I spent the whole afternoon counseling these people and doing my job as a flight surgeon to prepare for the aircraft mishap investigation that was going to come out of this. Because every time an aircraft crashes, we try to find the details so that we can prevent the next one. So I finally got back to my GP medium, which is a general purpose tent. And as I sit down on my cot, one of my medic says, Captain Rogers, how bad was it? And I said, as bad as you can imagine. I mean, I picked up parts of his body 130 yards away. And, you know, and so I was giving her just a few details.

And all of a sudden, she looked and she said, Captain Rogers, I don't know how to tell you this, but it looks like part of his brain is on your boot. So I looked down and I said, oh, yeah, it is. So I picked up part of his brain, and we had a pot-belly stove to keep his warm, and I just tossed it into that pot-belly stove. stove.

For me, the very next moment, there was a hand on my shoulder. And it was my staff sergeant, who was my NCIC. And he said, come on, Doc, we've got to get some breakfast, head over to third attack. And I said, what are you talking about? It's the middle of the night. He said, no, 553. We need to get moving. and so he didn't realize what had happened to me.

I didn't realize what I happened. But I got up and went and I got some breakfast, went over to the third attack battalion aid station and did all of the stuff I was supposed to do because the man who died was from third attack. And so late that day, I finally saw my medic, I said, hey, do you remember talking to me early this morning? She said, oh, oh, yeah.

And I said, do you remember telling me that part of his brain was on my boot? And she said, yes, sir. I said, and I took it, and I put it in the pop belly stove. And she said, yes, sir. And I said, what did I do then? And she said, well, you just sat there. I tried to talk to you, but you weren't responding. So I just got back in my sleep.

sleeping bag and went to sleep, I had lost more than four hours that I can't account for. Jesus. You went into some sort of catatonic state or something. Yeah. And needless to say, there have been times that I have relived these issues in my dreams. Yeah. And I've got lots of other stories. But they're not all good stories. Yeah. And you can't undo a story like that. Yeah. You know, this was one of my friends.

I had done this flight physical two weeks before we went out there. Damn. And now I'm taking part of his brain and throwing it in a pot-belly stove. Yeah. So tell me how that's good. going to get fixed. Yeah. You can't fix that.

No, you can't. You can't do that. So I've got other stories like that that I don't want to go into it. I'm sorry, man. Well, we're all here for you. I really appreciate you, you know, having the courage to come out. And like you said, you have David Grush's 6 o'clock position. I think it's very cool that you're doing this.

And that you're being so open and sharing about your, your PTSD, which is in no way related to, you know, your testimony, which people should realize, you know, if you were to blanket discount, you know, people with PTSD, you'd be like discounting half the military. Well, you know, a lot of people don't realize it, but we have archaeological evidence that goes all the way back to the Spartans. And there was a doctor that had written a treatise back then. And that treatise fit every category of PTSD now.

And so even the ancient Spartans who we think of, they were the greatest fighters. No, they were humans and they still had PTSD back then. Absolutely. I mean, you can't, I think you can't be human. And you see these things, of course you're going to dissociate somewhat and you're going to repress these, like, extreme feelings and if you don't have those extreme feelings there's something else kind of off with you around you know maybe sociopathy or something if you're if you're very close with a person and you see something that bad happen to them you know especially if you're sensitive you know like

uh well i think grush is another good example where he's he's a you could tell he's a he's a sensitive guy uh you're gonna you're gonna store a lot you're gonna pick up a lot and uh you have to you know like the electrostatic discharge on the craft you need to you need to discharge that somehow or it's going to it's going to kind of eat at you. So I admire you being open about all of this. I think it's, I think.

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And nothing at all to be ashamed about, if anything, we should be honoring you for having served our country for so long. So appreciate you. Well, I look back at the friends of mine who died, and I think, no, those are the real heroes. You know, sometimes it's very hard for people with survival guilt to accept somebody saying something good to them because, you know, in one circumstance, I was working on a good friend of mine, and I could not save his life, and he died. I did not feel like a hero after that. Yeah, but that's part of the course with your job.

You're not going to have 100% success rate, and you're going to have cases where no human could ever save them. So I think you can't be too hard on yourself, and I think just the fact that you were fulfilling that role, which is one that I think most people would be too afraid to even do, I think is a really amazing, you know, testament. And we don't know what happens when you die. So, you know, I always think that sometimes is like,

it's such a tragedy when people pass onto the other side. But they could be watching over you right now and so proud of what you're doing. Well, as a doctor, I'm really happy. You know, we don't know. As a doctor, I can assure you there are worse things than dying. Yeah. I do not want to have 99. percent of my body burned and me survive.

Totally. In total agony. I do not want my brain to survive my body. I don't want my body to survive my brain. I've seen both and they're not pretty. They're not pretty. Yeah, no, that sounds like purgatory, like you're walking around. I mean, that's probably the worst.

I agree. Well, I do want you to know. I think you're, yeah, you did the Lord. work and you have nothing, nothing to be, you know, regretful about. Well, God drives everything in the universe. You know, science cannot disprove God because God made science. You know, one of the things that used to bug me when I was a kid and I was reading Genesis, it said that evening and the morning were the first day.

And during the first day, God said, let there be light. Okay, so there's the light. Then it said the evening and the morning were the second day. Well, hold a second. There was light in the first day. Where did the light go that it got dark again? The sun wasn't formed. It wasn't, the earth just turned the opposite direction.

Well, the thing is, I never had an explanation for that until I learned about the cosmic microwave background. And then when you understand the cosmic microwave background, you understand this is exactly what happened. At the time of the Big Bang, the temperatures in the early universe were so hot that all you had was plasma. it was so hot that no proton could hook onto an electron because it would break apart because there was so much energy. So for 380,000 years, there was an orange light that filled the universe and it was this plasma. But at 380,000 years after the Big Bang, it finally cooled enough. that for the first time the proton could grab an electron and boom you've got a hydrogen atom it's 380,000 years 300,000 years that's amazing but once one proton could grab an electron so could the other

proton and the other proton and so within a very short time we went from this plasma-filled universe to the first atoms that were made and the universe was completely clear. Yeah. But there was no light because until enough of these protons with the hydrogen atom got together and they started accumulating using electrostatic forces and gravity, They finally made such a big mass of all of these atoms that gravitational force compressed them and boom, you have the first generation star. And so light returned to the universe. And that's the light of the second day.

So you have the light of the Big Bang and then you have no light until you get this hydrogen formation up until a star. and then you get light back, and so it matches with the Bible. I like that. I would say, you know, I believe in God, but I would say that our cosmological models of the universe are just super limited. And so I don't even know if the Big Bang is a thing. And the reason I say that is the James Webb Telescope is now picking up all these early galaxies that were far earlier than we ever thought galaxies formed.

And basically, if they exist in proportion to what was found in the world, this little section of the universe, then they might better explain the cosmic microwave background than the actual Big Bang itself. And so my larger kind of point is like we just need a lot of epistemic humility around cosmological models. Like I think physics has a scaling problem. So if you have anomalies at low scale, we were talking about, you know, alternative propulsion, like the Kazimir effect or Byfield Brown, like these things that like,

We don't, we can't explain, you know, simply through general relativity or quantum mechanics. If you have any sort of anomalies at low scale, which of course we do, because at any given time in history, you have anomalies in your physical models of reality, and that's, then they get updated. Then it's like your rocket is one degree off course. And so when you try to scale it to a cosmological model, you have this sort of error propagation and you're like way off. And then you have to come up with placeholders like dark matter, which is. this glue which explains gravity

gravity's weakness or cosmic inflation which is sort of the expansion of the universe where if you were to ask a physicist what fundamental force is represented in cosmic inflation they wouldn't have an answer for you they'd say some sort of repulsive form of gravity they'd say

anti-gravity and so you end up I think in like you know this crazy kind of hyperspace like just trying to make the math work to comport with our human very limited epistemology, there are all these issues with the cosmological constant. I mean, we could go on for a long time as far as issues with cosmology. So I think none of that, you can't use science

to discount God because, I mean, the universe is just so miraculous. And the Earth is so a morrow. You have the Plank's constant, you know, if it were slightly different, you know, we wouldn't have an atmosphere, right? And there's so many examples like that. So, I don't know, what do you think? Well, the single-legious problem is that if you don't have God, everything has to happen randomly. But the universe isn't random. How much do you know about chirality? I know a little bit about it.

Okay. Well, chirality means that there is something that is going to occur. in which you can have one version and you can have the opposite version. If you take the carbon of the methane molecule and you have four hydrogen molecules and let's just say 12, 3, 6 and 9. If you decide to make methyl chloride and you take a chlorine atom and put it at the 3 o'clock position, the composition is C.H.3.C.L. But now then if you take the chlorine and you put it at the 9 o'clock model instead of the 3 o'clock model,

the chemical formula is exactly the same. But if you shine, if you shine polarized light through that, if it's at the 9 o'clock position, it's going to turn the polarized light to the right. If it's at the, if the chlorine is at the three o'clock position, it's going to turn it to the left. So you have a left-handed methyl chloride and a right-handed methyl chloride. Now, it seems like there shouldn't be a difference. The biologic systems will only function with one of those options. Yeah. Glucose, there's a left-handed glucose and a right-handed glucose. But the right-handed glucose is the only glucose that any

plant will make, that any animal will consume, that any protoplasm will be able to manufacture energy from. So it's not 50-50. What is happening is that I put this in a book years ago, the case for God. If you take it. a nickel and you flip it. 50, 50 chances, it's coming up heads. So it comes up heads. So you flip it again, comes up heads again. So you say, hey, I'm going to Vegas. I'm going to find a casino where I can flip a nickel and bet on it. So you put $5 down, you flip it, comes up heads, you got $10. You flip it again, you got $20. You flip it again, you've got $40. By the time you flip this thing 20 times and it came up heads every time, the casino is visiting you because you have a nickel

that has been fixed. It has been altered. And so it is not a 50-50 chance. It's 100% and 0%. And when you look at the chirality throughout the universe, there are all of these multiple, multiple, multiple times when there should be a 50-50 reaction and it's 100% and zero percent. Yeah. And so if you are trying to explain this randomly, you don't have a real good case. if you say there is a God who knows how to fix a nickel so that it comes up heads every time. Very simple explanation. Yeah, and there are rational explanations basically for God, and then there are rational explanations for pure randomness.

And I think the very fact that our world is so kind of, you know, this anthropic principle, another good example would be water and ice, where normally the, you know, solid version of a molecular structure is heavier and more dense than the liquid version of that structure. And in the case of H2O, because hydrogen and oxygen have to happen to, when they bond and freeze, they form these perfect crystal lattice structures. They're actually less dense than water. And so you end up basically where, with this thing where, like, ice can float on water.

And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood amidst. million times over. So you have this kind of anthropic principle around that. Planks constant, the weak electro kind of, you know, that's, that's anthropic. All of these things, if they're, you know, the gravitational constant, if it is actually constant, if any of these things were slightly off, you know, the earth would not be habitable as we kind of know it. And then you get into physics principles like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, where if you, you're only measuring, you know, a position and momentum. One gets fuzzier as the other gets more accurate. And that sounds, that looks a lot like kind of a computational caching function. And so you end up

with this model where there's, there are really rational ways to actually explain God. You have even like in vogue today as Nick Bostrom and like, you know, Elon Musk saying, we live in a simulation. Well, it's like, who simulated us? Like, you know, God, you know, You know, God is a sort of a placeholder that, you know, it's very hard to know exactly what that is. But, you know, for a lot of people who don't have sort of a Gnostic, you know, felt sense of God. But on the other side, I don't know if the other side is more rational is all I'm saying. I think there's like a lot of really interesting data points that point you towards, you know, we live in a, you know, creative, intelligent universe. Yeah, go for it.

You know, when Albert Einstein created the special theory of relativity, people argued with him. And, you know, they argued with him so much between that and general relativity that even though Einstein won a Nobel Prize, it wasn't for relativity because too many people still argued about that. He won it for the photoelectric effect, special relativity, yeah. they were not going to give Einstein the credit he needed for relativity. General relativity was known as a novel curiosity until 1957, and that's when, you know, guys like now, like Kip Thorne will, they call it the golden age of general relativity, basically post Einstein where he gets resuscitated and, you know, turned into this, you know, a modern genius, who explains everything kind of cosmologically. But before that, it was this kind of novelically.

But before that, it was this kind of novel curiosity that was not at all established physics. It wasn't established physics, but it was in the Bible. General relativity. General relativity. So you've got this whole... Jesus said that with God, a thousand years is a day and a day as a thousand years. No, I think it's Peter, sorry. But at the time, that was an element of belief.

They had no reason to believe. believe it, but they were going to believe it. Now then, when you take scientists today, I'm not one of them, but there are scientists who can calculate for 24 hours to pass on Earth, an astronaut would have to be traveling at this speed close to the speed of light in order for them to see a thousand years and this guy to see 24 hours. It's not a belief anymore. It's an equation. Well, another good example of that is one of my favorite lines is in the book of Mark,

and I'm going to paraphrase here, but it's something like, careful what you measure because what you measure you'll get more of. And it's this, you know, seeking you shall find sort of, you know, comment. And I am really interested in this field of parapsychology, this idea, you know, like where your attentional sensor is pointed, you will receive more of that thing. And everybody, if you were to pull them and they're open to this somewhat, a lot of people, high percentage of people will say that empirically that happens in their life,

that like, you know, they think about a thing and then it just pops and they think about a friend and the friend calls them, you know, that sort of thing. And so I think there's a lot of deep truth to the Bible that, again, people discount. They say it was, you know, a bunch of bullshit, you know, paranormal magic tricks or something. And I don't think that's right. I think there are some real, there's some deep ontological truth that it's pointing at. Well, there's truth all over the world as well. You know, when you look at the Vedic text, they're talking about Vemanas.

Now, then at the time, those were the strangest things ever. But they described like an arrow that when it was shot, it would guide itself through the air until it hit its target. If you were watching an F-22 fighting MiG-29, and they fire heat-seeking

air-to-air missile, that missile is going to guide itself until it hits its target. Totally. So this was a description in the Vedic text thousands of years ago. Or what about the Vimanas,

which is, describe literally UFOs with spinning mercury inside, which then get later, I mean, you have a famous UFO whistleblower named Edgar Foucher claimed to be at Area 51, and he was working on that, you know, or I think he was aware of the TR3 A and B series from North of Grumman, and it involves spinning mercury. And so who knows, but I've had in your chair a Senate staffer for the intelligence community. Kirk McConnell bring this up to me. So you don't have to trust me, a crazy podcast or whatever.

Like he brought this up both in the context of Deglaca, this German bell, which is, I think, no longer fictional. We know there was something there. There's literally like a rig, a picture of a rig there. And Nick Cook has done all this interesting investigation into anti-gravity research mid-century has gone in there. And so, you know, the Deglocka probably existed and they're supposed to be spinning mercury there. and then you have Edgar Foucher saying later in the TR3A and B series,

you had spinning mercury. And then the Vamontas, spinning mercury. I don't know. You know, you can take some of the models of so-called birds from South America. And if you show them to American grade school kids, they're going to look and say, those are airplanes. Why? because they look like airplanes.

Now, then these things are thousands of years old. Why do they look like airplanes? Could it be because they were airplanes? We're not nearly as smart as we think we are. I agree. Also, if a cataclysm were to occur, you'd have no idea. It would be so buried. You know, they're talking about like something happened.

I mean, we have very, very little. record of the dinosaurs and they were wiped out, you know, 66 million years ago. So if you, you could have a civilization, you know, you could have this sort of S-curve thing with civilizational cycles and cataclysms. And it'd be hard to know until you first discover the thing. You know, right now, civilization is getting older progressively. Every, call it 30 or 40 years, we find, oh, now we have Quebec-Tepi. Oh, actually, Quebec Tepple isn't the earliest, you know, megalithic site. So I just think our understanding of the past, as you're implying, Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination

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found, you know, in the, I think the Aegean or the, you know. And it's undeniable. Yeah. It's undeniable. No, that is a fact. Yeah. So you get an accumulation of these things and it's like, well, maybe our, maybe our understanding of our past is just way off.

So fascinating. So one thing I want to, you know, getting back to your, the core case is it is interesting with a lot of these testimonies where you flip one switch and you could explain what you saw not by them because maybe that was just told to the major and maybe the major related to you, but it could be explained by just a terrestrial, equally exciting, but anti-gravity line of aerospace. And we were talking off air before the show about the byfield brown effect and like, you know, exotic propulsion.

Do you think that it's possible that what you saw was actually maybe just some extremely exciting human propulsion breakthrough? I think that what I saw was human built. Why we would design it that way, I could not. prove one way or the other. But knowing aerospace as I do, because I dealt with rockets, I dealt with a space shuttle. I dealt with F-16s. I dealt with H-1 attack helicopters.

There is nothing that would be advantageous aerodynamically for us to build that. And for somebody to go off on a crazy tangent, and say, I'm going to build this even though it's not aerodynamic and it doesn't show any basic advantage over any of our current aircraft. To me, that's nuts. That's crazy. I think it's a little nuts too. And for context for the audience, the 80s was really the stealth revolution.

So you have the F-1-17 coming out in the early 80s, and then you have the B-2 coming out in the late 80s, and obviously the B-2 had probably been around for a little bit longer, but like billions of dollars were being spent on these, you know, programs. And that was really kind of the state of the art. And it is hard to believe. You know, America did have a flying saucer program proven. Nobody would argue with the Avro car. So the Avro car was in the 50s and 60s, and it was at Wright Airfield.

But that was a joke. Kind of a joke. but the point is, is that you had a radial gas flowing turbine engine, but you had all these issues aerodynamically with it. It couldn't get out of ground effect. That's the same thing that happened with Vanguard. It couldn't get out of ground effect. It had this sort of Kiwanda effect, wobbly thing going on.

Well, with helicopters, when we fly helicopters, when we are moving forward, if you go fast enough, you will finally ground effect and you'll go into translational lift. And then you will ascend. But if you're having trouble with your engine, you want to stay close to the ground because the force of the rotor wash

hitting the ground gives you the equivalent of additional lift until you lose it and you lose ground effect. I do find it interesting that right when right airfield is working on the Avrocar, they're also sponsoring this conference with the top theoretical, you know, physics research in the country at UNC Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina. And the guy who's running University of North Carolina's, you know, Institute of Field Physics, with this guy, Bryce DeWitt, one of the top theoretical physicists in the world at the time, was a guy named Ogneubonson.

And he had, in his diaries, you know, that were found years later, It was the Space Brothers came to me and said, get me in touch with Townsend Brown because I want to build a spaceship. And so I wonder, you have this Avrocar project. It's kind of a joke. It's not really working. But you have a dedicated theoretical physics group under this guy, Josh Goldberg, at Wright Airfield. And then they're sponsoring elite, you know, theoretical work on the subject. And then the same guy who's, you know, basically like, you know, being a being a, being a,

benefactor being being sponsored by Wright Airfield is also hiring Townsend Brown, who probably made all these interesting updates in the world of anti-gravity propulsion. Then you have to ask yourself the question, you know, could we make that much progress in 20 years? And I don't know the answer to that. Well, with what you just said, I always think of pin and teller. I love to watch pen and teller. And one of the things they always talk about magic. When they say the magic is over here, you know, the magic is really over here. This is where they're wanting you to focus so that you're not paying attention over here.

Exactly. So when these companies say, look, we made this thing. Look at how fancy it is. That's to get the people's attention so they don't look at this other thing. that they're spending all the many on. That's right. Well, that's what I think now is the Avrocar was probably a cover for something deep. Because all the rumors of that the Roswell craft was taken to right airfield.

And so you had this, yeah, kind of, you know, distraction of like kind of this joke of a thing, the Avrocar. And then you have like more serious stuff going on. But I think they used the Avrocar as a front to get specific Nazi scientists. Like there's this guy, Richard Mehta, who went and worked. for the Avrocar in Canada, which, you know, before it moved to Wright Pat, it was at, uh, in Canada under the guy named John Frost. And John Frost, who ran the Avrocar project on behalf of, I think, British aircraft. It was like British aircraft and CIA. We're co-running this thing. He was going out to recruit all these secret Nazi scientists who had worked under Hans Kamler.

People like, you know, he went to try to recruit Victor Schauberger and they end up sort of stealing his work. But yeah, this other guy, Henry Kowanda, which the Kowanda effect is named after, is we know it was a consultant for Project Y, which is what, you know, the Avrocar project turned into was Y and Silverbug. So I think they were using it as like a funnel where it's like, this is a joke, we're not making progress. Let's get all these Nazi scientists to work on these things. But I think there was something very vital underneath all of it that was actually happening. And the crazy thing about your testimony, you're talking about the craft being charged. I've heard that a couple of times.

Apparently, this one firsthand witness who claimed to work on a craft at Wright Airfield that was retrieved in the Aztec recovery in 1948 in March in New Mexico, he says that the craft was hooked up to these. like extremely high-powered transformers, and it would go translucent when it got powered up. So that's interesting. And then there are a couple of other people who say similar things like that. Like, you know, a ton of power needs to be sort of mainlined into the craft. And so it's probably limited by its power source. Like Townsend Brown was always looking for a power source for his megavolt range electricity.

So, you know, and it was always going to be this kind of nuclear power source. like possibly cold fusion, like a low energy nuclear reaction or something. But before you get that, before you get the cold fusion, you have to pump it full of megavolt range electricity. Well, I think one of the things that people don't really seem to grasp in general is that you have to take baby steps before you take big steps. And so recovering a craft in 47, well, okay, you have all the details to it, but you can't make it. An example that I like to use is the F-22.

If we took an F-22 fighter in our day, which is the most advanced air-to-air platform that we have, and we take it back to 1914, and we say, okay, U.S. engineers, we want the United States to have the best aircraft that'll shoot anything out of the sky, you can win the war with it, and all of this stuff. And then they go look at it and they say, why does the skin feel so funny? Oh, well, that's radar absorbent material. Well, what's radar? Oh, well, it's a radio wave that you bounce off. And according to how long it takes to get back, you can find the range and distance for it.

And they say, well, where's the propeller? All of our aircraft are made out of wood. With the propeller, I don't see any wood and I don't see a propeller. Are you sure this thing flies? even though this is only 100 years of human technology, those 1914 engineers could not begin to understand the F-22, much less rebuild it. If we can do this in 100 years of human technology,

what would happen in 10,000 years of non-human technology? How far behind would we? we be. You know, when Leonardo da Vinci was alive, there were four elements in the universe, water, fire, air, and, what am I think? Earth. Earth. And they believed those were the four elements. If you asked any scientist at that time, that would be their answer. Now then if you said, What do you think about quantum theory? Then say, what are you even talking about? Yeah.

Well, atoms are not the smallest things. You can have quarks and you can... Glue on. Have gluons. You know, you have to decide whether or not they're going to be bosons or fermions. And bosons will always have... a whole number factor of the plank constant. And they're going to say,

what are you talking about? Now, then these would be the smartest, most brilliant people. And they think they know what physics is all about. But they're totally and completely off base. So what do you think these beings are that have these crafts that fly that maybe gift us their craft? if our star is less than 5 billion years old, but there was another star in our same galaxy that is 6 billion years old,

and the life formation followed a similar pathway to us. Their physics is 1 million years ahead of us, and they're going to look at our, physics and say, look, they're still fighting with string theory. You know, what's wrong with these idiots? You know, they think to go into space, you have to have a chemical rocket to go in space. You know, no wonder they can't go anywhere. What appears to be magic can be nothing more than advanced technology.

and we are so proud of everything we've learned, but we were so proud of what we learned in 1850, and we thought we knew a lot in 1850. Maxwell hadn't even come out with his laws yet. If you go to 1600, you know. Well, that's what they're saying with electromagnetism is, we know all the known laws in the universe. The electromagnetism explains it all.

We're at the end of history, and this was immediately, pre-Max Planck and, you know, Quanta and the whole quantum revolution. Right up until we were proven completely wrong. Yep. Yeah, totally. No, it's a, I would, you always will go, do well if you bet against the current physical model of reality.

Yes, you always do well. You'll always, if you bet against the house, if you bet against the Neil deGrasse Tysons of your time, you will always make money. Yeah. Because those people are always going to be wrong. It's such hubris. to say we are at the end of history and we know everything. That's insane.

Or even to say that we are just rounding out the final margins. Like, you know, there are little errors that we just have to correct for, and then we're finished. That's never how it works. It always, the next paradigm, completely upends our understanding of things. If you have a really terrible shot with a pistol, if you stand 100 yards directly in front of them, The safest place to be is where they're aiming.

Because they're always going to miss. So you don't know where they're going to miss. But if you're a lousy shot with a pistol at 100 yards, you're not going to hit anybody. Yep. Yeah, it's a great way to put it. Yeah. So that's why I think, I don't know, I worry about institutions, which have become increasingly closed-minded.

And they used to kind of foster. real intellectual heterodoxy and open-mindedness. And I think they are, they've become increasingly like, you know, you have to tow the party line. And if you don't, you know, you're out. So I would go kind of long individuals and short institutions over the next, you know, 10 years. I think in many ways we might have a, we might be in a sort of meltup in the markets, you know,

just around AI and stuff. But ultimately, we're, you know, we're probably in this sort of recession already or bare market and then the only thing we have a bull market in right now is ideas. Like we're in a crazy kind of ideas bull market. And so that's kind of exciting. But there can be times when we can't tell the difference between good ideas and bad ideas. In 1972, when they were first planning the space shuttle, they said, well, what happens

when it lands in California and we have to get it back to the launch site in Florida? So they thought, well, we could put it on a train and have a special route for that. Well, we could put it on a boat and bring it through the Panama Canal. Well, there was this one low-level scientist that said, what if we put it on the back of a 747? And they said, shut up. The real people are talking here. So they keep going through all this stuff. And then finally, one of the big guys says, we could put it on the back of a 747

and fly it back. And they say, what a great idea. That's wonderful. And this guy said, I said that four weeks ago. But, yeah, well, no one was listening to you. We're listening to this guy because he's big time. Yeah. Well, it's so much of science is social proof and herd-like.

And you expect it to be the most immune from herd-like thinking. But an example I was like is like, you know who the first person who, you know, discovered that we live in a solar system that revolves around the sun and not the earth is? Do you know? I would think it was one of the Greek philosophers. So that's amazing because most people would say Copernicus, you know, 16th century, pre-Galileo, you know, actually observing it. And in fact, it was one of the Greek philosophers, this guy, Aristarchus. Yeah, well, one of these guys was able to take a stick.

put it in the ground and measure the distance and do the mathematics. And he estimated the entire length around the world. And he was like within 3%. Whoa. Who is this? I don't remember. But, you know, it's, I'm sure you could. That's so cool. But because he studied the shadow.

of a stick. You're pretty smart. I feel like you're, you're pretty self-taught in all these sort of, you know, physics and astronomy and it's impressive. Well, think of that guy.

How smart did he have to be? Well, that's the thing. It's like, I think a lot of, you know, this sort of modern version of intelligence is just, it's like you have like adornments in a,

in your hat or something, you know, a cap in your feather or whatever. But, but, you could say a bunch of shit that makes you sound smart. but like so much of real intelligence should just be like childlike thinking about the universe like

forgetting all priors and almost being not super socialized so that there's you're not just adhering to the fashionable ideas of the time and just really thinking about things and kind of a you know this is an overused term but like a first principles way like seeing things for what they are that's a very rare thing there was there was a Greek inventor that made a circle, a sphere, and had one little spigot sticking out one side, one little spigot sticking out the other. If you put water in it and heat it,

it becomes a spinning wheel from the steam. It's essentially a steam engine. And everybody thought, hey, that's a cute joke. Now then, if he had just taken a chain and hooked that up to a chariot, as the steam toy goes around, it turns the... Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we are... roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building fit for your ambition for citizens

bank chain all of a sudden we've got the industrial revolution then 1800 years earlier 1800 years earlier you could have radical breaks and junctures in reality it's almost like technology is like timeline hopping or something like if you create something you know i think about this with um the steampunk revolution, you know, where, you know, it's like William Gibson's sci-fi novels is like this alternative, you know, second industrial revolution where we weren't using gas engines and we were just using, you know, steam or whatever. And like, there are different to, I don't know, like the semiconductor. That's somewhat arbitrary. What if we had like some sort of biological computation or something we were programming little like rat neurons and like that's how we were,

that's a whole computational tech tree, you know, outside of silicon. And, and that's, And so it is, it's so interesting how we just get routed in these different, and sometimes it's a cul-de-sac, like string theory where it's like, I don't think that's going anywhere. You know, we've got to figure out something new. It's fascinating. Well, as I said, we're never as smart as we think we are. And every time we have a major breakthrough, when we look on the other side, we say, well, now that we did this, we're going to need a couple more major breakthroughs up there because

of what we see ahead. So even Einstein, when he came up with his miracle year in 1905, he was feeling really good in 1906, but he wasn't feeling so good in 1917 when he couldn't prove his general relativity theory. And of all people, it would take an enemy of Germany at, Eddington to do the work on capturing the deviation of a star around the sun during an eclipse to prove that Albert Einstein was correct. Totally. And even then, it wasn't fully accepted.

And he also was a foundational player in quantum mechanics. He really helped establish it. People don't really give him credit for that part of his work. But he had all sorts of issues with quantum mechanics as this kind of ontological framework. and he has debates with Nealz Bohr in the Copenhagen School about what, you know, this meant and what entanglement meant and how it was even possible, you know, even though he was kind of responsible for a lot of early entanglement work, EPR. You know, that's Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen. So, yeah. Well, what did he get his Nobel Prize in?

Photoelectric effect. Yeah. A photon of light. He received his Nobel Prize for a quantum theory. Yes. And his general relativity never got a Nobel Prize. And the photoelectric effect, even when he discovered it in 1905, hadn't been experimentally proven. It was just a theory.

And then it was later experimentally proven. But, yeah, obviously the photoelectric effect has had a, you know. In some ways, I don't know. I'd be curious if somebody were to, like, you know, do research on this, but whether general relativity or special relativity has had a greater impact on our reality, because the photoelectric effect, you wouldn't have, like, a TV, right? Like, it's, like, literally just light in its interaction with, like, metal surfaces. And that's pretty key to, like, everything, even a lot of the stuff in quantum mechanics.

And then general relativity, you know, that feels to me, again, I'm a stupid, I'm a physics idiot, but, like, feels a little more important for, like, cosmology. and then like I think we're kind of off on a lot of cosmological stuff. So, and it's kind of put a governor on propulsion, you know, where it's like, you know, the speed of light is just the speed limit, it's the global speed limit. So I wonder if maybe, maybe actually the Nobel Prize Committee back then, you know, knew what it was doing or something. Well, Vos, the mathematician from India, he was writing really great,

lectures. And he sent one to Albert Einstein and said, nobody's listening to me. And he said, well, I'll put my name on it and then they'll listen. And so, you know, bosons are named after bows. So, you know, it's just crazy that this guy that nobody believed from India that no one would pay attention to, as soon as Albert Einstein puts his name on it, oh, you're brilliant. Yeah.

Right up until Albert Einstein said you're brilliant, you were stupid. Right. Yeah, we're very memetic. We like what other people like. And if they're of high stature, then all of a sudden that's this really important stamp of approval. And so, yeah, well, where do you think disclosure is headed? Do you think we'll get some exciting, you know, revelation near term? Do you think it'll stay in this sort of liminal space of some people believing others not?

Or what do you think? I think the simple biggest problem is bureaucratic inertia. It takes somebody who is really strong in their beliefs to step out from the group of people who are all agreeing how smart they are and say, listen, y'all are smart. but you're not smart about this one thing. And so you have to have the other people agree that, yes, what you're talking about is true before the entire group will finally begin to act as though it's true. I believe that we are to a point that realistically, we don't need to prove that UAP are real. We have plenty of evidence that UAP are real.

But as long as we're still fighting the battle, UAP are real, we're missing the bigger battle, which is what are we going to do with it? And so we need to stop fighting over whether it's real because it is real. So now we need to figure out what on earth are we going to do with it. You know, that guy came up. What do you think we should do with it? I think we need to release a large part of the information. Being from the military, I know that if I have an advantage, you know, if I'm flying an F-16

and I have an advantage over another jet, I'm not going to tell you what my advantage is. However, there are so many elements of what UAPs mean to humans, to technology, that I think it is irresponsible to continue to say, there's nothing to see here. No, we can already see it. When you stand up and say that, you just look stupid. And then if we accept. that we look stupid. Yeah. We need to be moving beyond stupidity and we need to be making progress. The only way we're going to make progress is to get meaningful disclosure. Yeah. But the people who own the processes are the ones who will determine whether or not the disclosure occurs. Do you think, you know, Bob Lazare, who is reportedly any G&G employee, not too many years before you're citing, you know, four years. Do you think, you know, that your story adds corroboration to his stated work at Area 51, reverse engineering, a UFO? I would say it does. Now, then his story is very complex, so I don't know which elements I would say this really adds to it when this one doesn't add much to it.

The only way I could really judge that was if I ever met him, and we had had a lot. long discussion, just the two of us with nobody listening. Yep. But to a certain extent, one of the things I mentioned was that if you take away the oddness to the corners and the sections of his craft and smooth it out, as I've described with this egg, It would be very much like his sports model. Now, I don't know if they're at all related, but boy, it would be a lot like it. It sounds very similar.

It sounds just like a smoother, pearly white version of it where you don't have this kind of cockpit, but it just kind of smooths. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, if you look at the early aircraft that was used in. combat aviation. And then you look at the smooth surfaces of the F-22 and the F-35. You don't see big fat wings. You don't see vertical stabilizers.

You don't see great big engines with propellers on them. They're both flight vehicles, and at the time, they were both viable. but the modern version is smooth so that you're not going to reflect radar ways. Well, when they first made the fighting aircraft in World War I, there were no radars. They didn't worry about a radar cross-section. They had no idea about that. And even in World War II, we were able to make some progression, but it was, easier to just drop a bunch of aluminum pieces and call it window because it reflects so much of the

radar waves and then we can sneak our airplane in. Stealth was dropping pieces of aluminum from your airplane. That was as good as it got at that point. So we continue to make steady progress. The only way to really make progress is to give the best construction capabilities to the smartest people. I love it. Well, on that note, I guess you brought these really interesting patches. Do you have like maybe one or two favorites that we can just show the audience? I think these were really cool. The Joint Stars Desert Storm is one of my favorites.

No, that's the one that we use. used before Desert Storm. And then this one. This one, yeah. That's pretty awesome. You want to show that to the camera? In fact, if we held the two of them together, you'll be able to see the difference. So this one shows Saudi Arabia and the sand in the color.

And it says Desert Storm, the original one, if you can hit me that one. This one. Yeah, this is the one. that I wore during the whole time we were developing it. And so it showed our aircraft. It sort of gives clues as to what it was, but it really doesn't tell you what Joint Stars was about. This one shows, hey, we did this in Desert Storm.

And after Joint Stars was demonstrated in Desert Storm, we decided we will never go into combat without the synthetic aperture radar that was developed by Joystars. Very cool. And then finally, I wanted to show the audience, you have playing cards here, which if you're involved in a hostage situation, maybe you're the hostage keeper, right? Yeah. That was what we used back in the Cold War.

So this is the Cold War? And so these were actual playing cards that you can play cards with. Yeah. But the purpose was that we had English and Russian. So if we wanted to show what a word is in English, they would read it in Russian, and it was a means for us to communicate. So here you have medicine, and then you have the Russian word for medicine. Yeah, I'll let you pronounce the Russian one. I can't read that.

Then you have Jeep, and then you have the Russian word for Jeep. So it's like if you're trying to communicate with them, you can do that through, you build rapport with your hostage through these playing cards. Some Cold War memorabilia. It's pretty, pretty amazing. Well, Mr. Rogers, Greg, it's been an absolute honor, man. This is really fun. And I really admire your courage.

and I appreciate you speaking out not only about your experience, but about, you know, the other things you've faced as a flight surgeon and as a director of aerospace medicine, who is essential to all sorts of operations as evidenced by your various patches, but also to your, you know, your core testimony, which, you know, is just fascinating. And I think should be added to the public repository, the public canon of official sightings. And many people see, you know, close and counter to the, you know, first, second, and third kind

out in the wilderness or in the air, you know, whatever. But yours is in, like, you know, an official, you know, capacity. And so I think that's kind of, you know, those are in a league of their own. And that's, that's really interesting. So, appreciate you. One of the most interesting things was that I recently found out that the Jesse Marcel library in Montana has put up a. article about me in their library.

Wow. So I'm going to speak to him later this month on the 19th, and we'll do a Zoom call. But I never expected my name and Jesse Marcell's to be associated. Well, it makes sense because Jesse Marcel Sr. was an Army intelligence officer, but Junior was an Air Force flight surgeon. So there you go. You're part of the lineage. And it's pretty amazing.

And I think, you know, for years to come, people will remember this testimony. It's a very important one. And I want to give a huge shout out, by the way, to Chris Leto. Oh, absolutely. So thanks so much, Greg. This is an absolute honor. I really appreciate you, man. Okay.

Well, I appreciate being here. All right. Cool.