American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Pentagon Whistleblower UNLOADS on Alien Hybrid Breeding Programs (ft. Matthew Brown)

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Starting point is 00:01:07 What you are allowed to think and believe is controlled for a real agenda. Matthew Brown, it's an honor to have you. You have a core story where you bumped into a lot of real information around UFO tracking and reverse engineering programs that were ongoing and multi-generational. Can you say what your position was at the Pentagon? I was a policy advisor. I was working the counter WMD emission. Once I was read in, UAP just pop up. In this case, the Immaculate Constellation, you're building an operational picture of the world

Starting point is 00:01:38 and having all domain awareness. Do you think they would know vital secrets about UFOs? We're running up against their own interests in not disclosing this because it will challenge their economic, social, and political power. Bate for shootdowns is, in fact, cover for using psionics as breeding stock for generations down the line

Starting point is 00:01:57 where you have some sort of super psychic child. Whoa. Triangles in particular seemed to be highly advanced. It appeared above Russian naval vessels relatively close. Like it wasn't way up in the sky. It was a football field above them. The Russians had foreknowledge that this triangle would appear there, and they were essentially there to meet with it.

Starting point is 00:02:16 Seems like there was some reason for that meeting. So you think the meeting was intentional on both sides? Your report mentions a formation of 12 metallic orbs skimming the ocean surface at high speed before dispersing in multiple directions. pretty wild. The White House possesses a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events. What does that mean?

Starting point is 00:02:43 Our mind is no longer sovereign. It can be interfaced through remote means. Even our dreams are now subject to technological manipulation. This isn't even classified knowledge. Technical applications from MIT itself relating to dream implantation, including at a distance. Do you think ideas can be implanted and somebody's waking life? Yes. That's freaky.

Starting point is 00:03:05 It is. And you're high confidence. I'm certain. That's insane. Matthew Brown, it's an honor to have you. I'm really excited for this. And it's been a long time coming for me because I speak to a lot of people who have experiences, obviously, on the inside with UFOs. Either they've gone through files or maybe they saw a thing that they weren't supposed to.

Starting point is 00:03:50 you are very unique in my mind because obviously that happened, you know, as kind of, you have a core story where you bumped into a lot of real information around UFOs. But you also seem to have extrapolated almost a model of how the nature of reality works or metaphysics works. And I don't think you make any bold claims, you know, insofar as saying that you know exactly how it works. But it seems like you've always been kind of a seeker along those lines, too. So I'm very excited to speak with you both about your core. experience and about, you know, some of the conclusions that you've derived from that information you've gleaned. Yeah, thank you, Jesse. The honor is mine as well. This is also a long time coming. It feels right to be out here and starting to open up more and share about not just those

Starting point is 00:04:39 experiences whistleblowing, but kind of more of like, well, what is life like after? What does it all mean and how do we adjust our, our life's and our actions with this, with this information. Yeah. Growing up, did you always know that you wanted to go into government? No, no. You know, I,

Starting point is 00:04:59 I was pretty much an outcast in most of school, not really till high school, did I just kind of start to come out of my shell and graduated high school, not very good prospects. And I went to community college, actually, as a film student, initially. So no, government was never on my mind. The closest I got was on a few occasions getting close to like signing up for the military,

Starting point is 00:05:26 but primarily because even at that time, the sort of wars in the Middle East didn't seem, to me at least, to be a just war. And coming from a very patriotic family, the just war kind of thinking really was in beauty. in me from a young age. And then also, you know, kind of looking at like, well, what did I want to do in my life? Not the most athletic person, not the smartest. Maybe I can find somewhere to fit in in the arts. But life had different plans. About two years into that experience, I was persuaded by a history professor to seek out a career in intelligence from there. Yeah, followed that path for that's interesting

Starting point is 00:06:15 Were they sort of recruiting for the Intel world? No, I mean this is again, this is this is not an Ivy League place, this is just a local community college. But you know, you have all sorts of characters at these places though that can teach. You know, we had

Starting point is 00:06:32 a math teacher who worked on the space shuttle, specifically the thermal tiling system for that, did the calculations for that. Had someone who was, you know, kind of an ex-spook. Wasn't very clear on that. And then this lady who had experience on Wall Street

Starting point is 00:06:52 and seemed to have some exposure to the intelligence world herself. So, you know, it's strange who you'll meet in the most unlikely places. Yeah. And if you're willing to learn, you know, people will open up. And so were you already in D.C. or did you move to D.C. for the government? Yeah, I moved to D.C. for for grad school and to get a job. Pretty much did both at the same time.

Starting point is 00:07:19 So I transferred out to community college to a university. It's funny, I actually finished that university experience with a study abroad in Russia and moved from Russia to D.C. Kind of strange, looking back on it. And then, you know, from there, you know, I've made my first sort of formal bids to join the IC, as it were, you know, kind of got picked up and entered into that. Were you into UFOs throughout any of this, either growing up or while in community college or graduate school or as an entry level kind of Pentagon employee? I mean, no more than just like a, I think maybe most people in sort of like the counterculture

Starting point is 00:08:02 are like, you know, it's out there. Everyone knows the show ancient aliens, you know, kind of growing up with that. But it was it was never like a specific like, I need to learn. everything about this topic and I'm obsessed with it. It was just like, oh, that's interesting. And on to the next bit of history. Yeah. Can you say what your position was at the Pentagon at the time? I mean, I like to not kind of put the spotlight on those offices, but I was a policy advisor. I was a contractor at the time. I was working the counter WMD mission for the office, the secretary of defense for the undersecretary of defense for policy. And, you know, down in the org chart is where I was, but we'll just leave it there for, yeah, I still respect the mission, don't want to bring any heat their way.

Starting point is 00:08:53 For sure. Were there any moments in that role where you had a wake up call and you were like, the world is way more on the brink on multiple occasions than people on the civil side realize? So probably just through the course of, like, I guess, how? higher education, you know, you, in international affairs, you kind of are naturally led into, like, the real state of things behind or beyond the headlines and seeing, you know, just how close we are to violence and lawlessness kind of spilling over and destroying what we've built. So, you know, that definitely got to the next level, being on the inside and learning more details. more entirely novel areas of competition. But I guess for most of my adult life,

Starting point is 00:09:52 it's kind of always felt like, you know, the drums of war are always kind of banging. What happened in 2018 to turn you from a garden variety, you know, person who was, you know, peripherally interested in UFOs to somebody who really believed that the government had kind of this comprehensive entanglement with UFOs specifically this tracking and reverse

Starting point is 00:10:16 engineering programs that were kind of ongoing and multi-generational. Yeah, so I mean, that was built up over time, but I mean, pretty much once I was read in, just to my accesses

Starting point is 00:10:32 for the counter WMD mission, like UAP just pop up. It was just there as part of the threat environment. It was unknowns, but it was you know, it wasn't like there was no awareness of it. It was just something that wasn't talked about because probably, you know, people that are read in, you're not allowed to talk about it. And if you're not, you know, you know not to ask. And then that awareness, you know, kind of reached the next level again when people know at this point, I was exposed to legacy program material, in this case, the Immaculate Constellation Program.

Starting point is 00:11:07 and that kind of discovery of, you know, kind of confirming suspicions like, okay, this is all somewhat real. The government has to be involved in tracking this. And then here's like official documentation of one aspect of how we are managing the UAP problem. Kind of brought me to that next level of commitment to finding out what's going on. And set the scene for us. So like, where are you like at a Pentagon office and you're you're searching? you know, through documents or what exactly are you doing?

Starting point is 00:11:42 So less glamorous than that. Basically was voluntled to clean up the file system. And, you know, I was very much a new employee at the time. So I was taking any job I could to just learn more and be useful. And so, yeah, I was doing that on our classified computers. And don't, yeah, don't need. need to get into that. But found it in there. It was, you know, labeled, nothing that would draw attention to it being a UAP briefing or anything like that. And just as part of that process, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:19 open a file, see what it is, see what it is and where it should go. Open that file, see what it is and like, whoa, what am I looking at here? After reading through it once, it was pretty clear to me that this was, you know, a most likely something that they would call spilling. like it was sap material or something like that. SAP is special access program. Yes. And it was improperly filed. And so this is based on that training that I had,

Starting point is 00:12:49 this is an incident that you need to report. I wasn't quite sure what to do with it at the time. But a few weeks later, conveniently, you know, we got kind of archival training as an office and, you know, we learned what the pathway is specifically for dealing with sap spillage. And so then having that kind of information, started to report it to leadership.

Starting point is 00:13:09 What does the document say? I mean, it was a PowerPoint briefing is what you would call a capabilities brief for senior leadership. So it's describing at a high level, you know, what this operational sap is, very brief history of it. And what is it?

Starting point is 00:13:29 So Immaculate Constellation, it's a, or it was described to me, at least in my limited exposure, as a operational sap governing the intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance of UAP around the world using tasked and untask collection platforms. So that distinction being, you know, intelligence assets that are specifically, you know, looking at an area either for a specific window of time or just durationally for a certain collection target or things that happen to observe, in this case, UAP incidentally,

Starting point is 00:14:06 on their mission. So bringing that all together, essentially, in my mind, where that goes is you're building an operational picture of the world and having all domain awareness. And is this happening sort of in this really systematic way across all of our image intelligence assets? Obviously, you have satellites, you have other optical sensors, you have radar, you know, on various naval ships, you know, all over the world. Is this happening sort of comprehensively, is this kind of a niche program that we're trying out at low scale? Or what sort of scale is this operating at? Well, at the time of my exposure, you know, I've learned more since then through other sources who would know.

Starting point is 00:14:50 But it was focused on imagery and massants, so measurement and signals intelligence. Sorry, measurement and signatures intelligence. So the imagery is kind of self-explanatory across different spectrums. The massent is, you're basically looking at things like, you know, radar returns, electromagnetic returns, emissions, and kind of going, you're kind of in that realm of technical, scientific analysis of things that if you look at the end product, it's just going to be like a spectral graph, not very sexy for the viewer, but it's hard scientific data gathered through pretty unique means.

Starting point is 00:15:34 Not just on UAP, but you can do mass int on all sorts of collection targets with all sorts of means. And do you get the sense that this is a global project funded in the billions or it's like a small kind of pilot project or? Just from that briefing alone, definitely got the sense it was global. It was well established. The mission itself probably took advantage of our existing collection architecture, and it's a mission that is operating kind of as a ride-along or through existing means. I do not doubt that there are dedicated collection platforms for the subject, but just sticking to what was on the page, yeah, it was definitely a global, established,

Starting point is 00:16:20 well-resourced effort. So an open source version of this using kind of existing means would be SpaceX, for example, has its Starlink fleet, so thousands of satellites, you know, for, you know, internet service provider access, you know, across the globe. But they can double use those, you know, they have put optical sensors on them. And there's a program called Star Shield where they can work with, you know, the NRO, you know, on that sort of double use. And so this would be something similar where we have all these assets that collect image intelligence and other signatures and why not just collate all of that when it comes to UFOs and feed it into some sort of central database and presumably do some AI analysis over it? Yeah, bingo. You got it. I would just add that, you know, yes, space-based assets were included, but it also included, you know, terrestrial assets, including, like, you know, not just aircraft flying in the atmosphere, but seaborne kind of sensor platforms as well. whole spectrum, at least what I saw was used.

Starting point is 00:17:28 Do we have any sense of who ran this program, where it was based? Were there any names on the document that were relevant? Yes. And, you know, having since learned more, have more fidelity on that, but that wasn't in my State Department cleared report. So I will just say that, you know, it was the you know, pointing towards Shriver Air Force Base in Colorado as being at least one hub of this program. And does that make sense to you given, was Shriver known for other things that are sort of adjacent to this?

Starting point is 00:18:07 Yeah, it's a major, I mean, it's a major place for our space operations. I think there's a, there is a space command there. I used to know where a lot of commands were, but, you know, that knowledge is kind of fading. but major space surveillance, ISR, and operations hub is in Colorado Springs. And how much is mentioned, by the way, some of this is public right now? Is the entire Immaculate Constellation document public, or is it just part of it with some parts redacted? That's public? So, yeah, the report. I mean, that's the name that, you know, has stuck the Immaculate Constellation Report.

Starting point is 00:18:49 It's a bit of a misnomer. I submitted it to Congress as a field report. It's seven categories of evidence. Only one of those being the Eback of Constellation program. Obviously, I guess, the attention, but there's a lot of goodness in there besides that. So what is in there is the summary of what I saw and reported to Congress, just the facts of my exposure. The broader report, you know, has more detail. But, you know, I provided that to Congress.

Starting point is 00:19:19 and a different one for submission for public clearance, so I have to stick with what was cleared for public. Got it. So there is a difference between what you saw and what the public gets to see. Or between what I wrote? Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean like the Immaculate Constellation file.

Starting point is 00:19:39 Oh, yeah. The PowerPoint is, I mean, I never brought that anywhere. In fact, you know, going through the exposure to it and reporting it, you know, I wasn't, I didn't become a whistleblower, right? I had years of my career after that. Yeah. That file, that specific file, that briefing was mysteriously deleted after being reported. But did you see a deeper version? So you saw obviously a different format. But did you see, you saw more information than what came out in the Michael Schellenberger congressional hearing with Nancy Mace, is that correct? Or is it, you saw the same information, basically? It's, so what, what came out in the,

Starting point is 00:20:18 what I reported to Congress and in the document is the summary of about, you know, 12 to 15 slides, something like that. So is there more? Yes, but you basically have the summary. It's not like I got the full, I was never fully read into a macadic constellation. I'm sure there's things I got wrong because I was only one limited exposure or things that are incomplete, but, you know, the fact of the program has been established beyond a reasonable doubt, both through my exposure and then, you know, other sources that have developed since then. You know, some clarifications have been arrived at, which is, you know, I saw it as a DOD program. That's how it was presented in the briefing, but, you know, came to learn later that it's, you know, DOD might be implementing it, but it's actually

Starting point is 00:21:09 ran out of and owned by the National Security Council out of the White House. So, you know, there's clearly more to the story. But, you know, I'm only basing it off of a limited exposure. What are the most striking things that the Immaculate Constellation documents say about UFOs, UAP, non-human intelligence? I mean, I think, well, number one, it didn't really characterize what these things were, right? I'm pretty sure that's a separate briefing. But it just established the fact.

Starting point is 00:21:43 fact of these things operating around the world, including over the continental United States, over adversary countries, third-party countries, both around sensitive facilities connected with WMD and then in the global commons, so like over the oceans. Does it say that they show up around weapons of mass destruction and nuclear? In that document, no, it doesn't... does not say that they specifically do that, but that is, uh,

Starting point is 00:22:19 you know, well established fact just from, um, other reporting, uh, in the government and some of that included in, in the document that I submitted to Congress, um,

Starting point is 00:22:30 and in the public version. Uh, and there's, there's other people besides me that have made that link, right? I think Robert Salas is probably the most famous. There's a, I saw you had a copy of one of the books like UFO and nukes.

Starting point is 00:22:42 Yeah. It's established beyond a reasonable doubt that not just nuclear facilities draw their attention, but WMD in general. Yeah. Yeah. And so, okay, so it talks about these sort of global reports of UFOs. It also talks about different geometries, isn't that right? And kind of taxonomy of... So my report does.

Starting point is 00:23:06 The Immaculate Constellation Briefing included examples of different types. again, this is a briefing for senior leadership, so it's kind of high level. In the document, you know, it showed basically four case studies, if you want to call it that of collection events on these that were relatively recent to the time of that report's drafting, or sorry, that briefing's drafting, which was around 2018. So, you know, most interesting one to me was a big triangle over Russian naval vessels. and indeed that was kind of like the first example led or presented in the briefing also was included with things like orbs and it was interesting because one of the events that was listed there was an event I was already familiar with outside of that briefing itself kind of demonstrating that you know these events might occur outside of the Immaculate Constellation tasking but they are brought into sort of the mission um as part of its, you know, role and capabilities.

Starting point is 00:24:14 What happened with a triangle? So, I mean, as described in there, it appeared over, so sorry, to set the scene, we had a surveillance asset in the ocean off the, I believe was Camchatka, but the eastern seaboard of Russia in the Pacific. And there was a grouping of Russian naval vessels. one of them being a known Russian intelligence vessel at night, and then the triangle basically appears, you know, whether you say a decloaked, materialized, phased in,

Starting point is 00:24:53 who knows what the point is that it just, it appeared seemingly out of nowhere, did not describe, you know, what the nature of that appearance was. But it appeared above them relatively, relatively close. Like it wasn't way up. in the sky it was maybe a football field or two above them and just hovered there uh kind of described as like you know kind of tilted to the side um and there was no reaction from the russian vessels um anybody could have seen that thing uh we did as well and uh you know it kind of just

Starting point is 00:25:32 hung that hung out there uh for duration of time the the briefing didn't describe how long uh and then disappeared kind of just as suddenly as it appeared. And that's really the summary of that event. You know, it described the event, described the briefing described the event, described, you know, who, who, which vessels were there, you know, had names of them and stuff. And the fact that they had been there in that area

Starting point is 00:26:05 for a period of time before the best, before the triangle appeared. And their analysis was that they had, that the Russians had four knowledge that this triangle would appear there. And they were essentially there to meet with it or waiting for it to appear. How did the Russians have foreknowledge that the triangle would appear there? Not explained. Maybe they had their own version of immaculate constellation or maybe they were messing with some nuclear stuff or, because they're baiting techniques, right, to, like, cause these UFOs to show up. Yeah, so I mean to diverge into my own speculation and not what was on the page.

Starting point is 00:26:44 I've come to believe that that was some sort of prearranged meeting for whatever purpose I don't know. But the triangles in particular seem to be highly advanced. I think when we talk about baiting operations, you're baiting more of sort of automatic sensors that might be in our atmosphere or in our oceans, right? or things like that, yeah, that are, you know, kind of a cause and effect response versus something like the triangle by many accounts is under intelligent control. Highly advanced seems like it would be unlikely that it would not just be baited by Russian naval vessels in the ocean, but, you know, appear in such close proximity to them for fun. It seems like there was some reason for that meeting. So you think the meeting was intentional on both sides? At this point, yeah, I think.

Starting point is 00:27:44 And when we say meeting, the things materializing and then flying off, what is that, what do the Russians get out of, you know, even trying to sort of meet with? You know, that's not like you're like sitting down. Yeah, maybe over a table and, you know, conversing and talking about, you know, You're not negotiating anything, right? Or do you think something is transferred when the... Probably some sort of transfer, yeah. Let's say diplomatic meeting where people get off a ship and have dinner.

Starting point is 00:28:16 More of, it seems like, again, speculation that that was some sort of transfer event. Maybe it was data, right? Being transferred in a secure way, you know, line of sight kind of link so that there's low probability of intercept. Or something else. But that... I don't know. Yeah. That would imply, I mean, if there was some sort of data transfer that the Russians were aware of and they're sort of like, you know, predetermining this meeting, that would imply a level of coordination with the beings that, you know, would be remarkable.

Starting point is 00:28:49 It would be like at the highest levels of our government and their government, we're sort of meeting, you know, when we want to with aliens or with aliens as a, you know, a conclusion, but with something anomalous. Some intelligence, yeah. I mean, I can't say off of just that document alone that that was a non-human craft. It certainly lines up with descriptions of non-human craft, but at this point in time, it's possible that, you know, the United States and others have some sort of derivative technology that looks like the big black triangle, right? There's that famous NID study done in the, I think late 90s or early 2000s where they correlate triangle sidings to naval bases in the United States. So either what's going on is, you know, there's some sort of recurring exchange or in use of our facilities by whatever is piloting these big black triangles. Or we have some sort of derivative technology or self that operate from these bases. Jeff Nusateli also described, you know, a big black triangle coming out of the Pacific Ocean flying into Vandenberg, basically hovering over the runway at Vandenberg Air Force Base and then disappearing. I talked to five shaken witnesses who described a massive. massive triangular craft larger than a football field that hovered silently for about 45 seconds

Starting point is 00:30:09 over their entry control point before shooting away at impossible speed. Dylan Borland also at Langley in 2012. Exactly. At approximately 0.130, I saw an approximately 100-foot equilateral triangle take off from near the NASA hangar on the base. He sees this triangular craft seemingly kind of come out of, or maybe it was hovering around a NASA a hangar at the Air Force base and then it flies at his head. Yeah. And then it flies off.

Starting point is 00:30:36 Yeah. I'd be pretty freaked out if that happened to me. Yeah. So, you know, these are all examples of the United States having some sort of relationship with these, with these craft, whether it's our own gifted tech or truly a third party can only speculate. But, you know, I have some good guesses. What's your best guess? that there is an exchange or some sort of arrangement with whatever is piloting the black triangles that are not ours. I believe we do have a derivative version at this point, but that is, again, derived from the real thing.

Starting point is 00:31:18 And the real thing, there is some sort of ongoing contact and communication, clearly not just the United States, but other governments as well. That's my opinion. And when it flies in the vicinity, there's like some sort of download that occurs. There's like a transmission of information. That's what some people have reported. Again, I did not come across official information. Well, I did not come across information on that in the Imaccah Constellation briefing. Okay.

Starting point is 00:31:50 All right. We'll read between the lines there. Any other case studies that really struck you outside of this Russian naval vessel incident? So, I mean, in the Immaculate Constellation briefing, that was the highlight for me. The other ones were examples of orbs or irregular slash organic things, and some of those were, again, incidents I was familiar with that would be incidental collections because I'd seen them on other systems, but they clearly were fed up into Immaculate Constellation. So I was already familiar with them as what I'm getting at. It was certainly notable to see them in the briefing and see the analysis done with them, but the triangle was entirely novel and new.

Starting point is 00:32:37 And as I think I point out, like, there seems to be some sort of control, like information control system or security classification internal related directly to the triangles because they appear very rarely in the sort of regular reporting stream. They're definitely, in my opinion, plucked out and sequestered. Can I read your report? because I think it'd be good for people to just, okay. Immaculate Constellation's primary mission is collecting imagery intelligence on unidentified aerial phenomenon and ARV slash RV. So ARV, is that alien reproduction vehicle or is that advanced research vehicle or what is ARV? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:18 So there is what was presented in the Immaculate Constellation briefing. and my report to Congress was just reporting what I saw, not my opinions on it. So in the briefing, ARV and RV were the terms, where the abbreviations used throughout. It was expanded, right, on only one occasion. And to the best of my recollection, it was expanded as alien reproduction vehicle. Now, my personal opinion is that that... term as well as the sort of upfront context of, oh, M-Con was created as a result of Lou Elizondo exposing atyp, were two instances of information kind of poison pills, as you were, or signature.

Starting point is 00:34:12 What am I trying to say here? Basically a counterintelligence tool to see that, okay, we described these things using these words and gave this kind of program history during these years. So if there is a leak and we see in the leak that these terms are used or this program history is used, then we can start narrowing in on, you know, who leaked it because, you know, counterintelligence, internal security keeps that file, right? My personal opinion is that if you're going to do FOIA searches, you're going to have better luck searching for the term advanced reconnaissance vehicle. You'll find some things from TRW in particular,

Starting point is 00:34:54 not the Army ground platform that comes up from the cursory search. You know, the term I know I've since learned has a bit of a reputation, both from the, I think, Mark McCandlish. Yeah. McCandlish story, which I only became familiar with after publishing this because everyone jumped on it and the sort of Stephen Greer expansions on that dialogue. To me, it always seemed a bit too on the nose to call something an alien reproduction vehicle in a briefing like that. But again, I just reported to Congress what I saw.

Starting point is 00:35:34 So, yeah, take it as you will, I would not put too much stock in that term being the full truth of what those are. But the acronym itself, ARV or RV, I believe will also yield good returns to people that use those terms to search. Yep. We're in the Hall of Mirrors. This is intelligence. This is counterintelligence. This is program protection. You know, I wish there was a simple answer so that I didn't have to qualify things and could give people easy, digestible answers.

Starting point is 00:36:09 But that's not where we are, where we're at. Do you think that there's a chance that the spillage and that you kind of bumping into this document, Immaculate Constellation, was actually by design, and that it was some sort of program protection device, and that some intel group is systematically tagging advanced research vehicles or reconnaissance vehicles with the sort of alien insignia in order to be able to sort of track the flow of, you know, who talks about these sorts of things? personally no. If you're going to have bait, you would make it much more appealing. The document was a working document. It was clearly something that was in the middle of being drafted. Like there were placeholder slides, right, where a control officer would insert sap material. There were no appropriate portion markings. And I was able to see looking at the file history, like it had been edited recently by certain people. And it wasn't labeled in a way that would draw attention, nor was it stored in a location that people would want. want to search for it. It was just... Do you know who wrote it? I know at least one person who was editing it. Uh-huh.

Starting point is 00:37:19 You know, you can only learn so much from a file's metadata, especially when you're working in a bureaucracy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anybody's name you can say, or... No, I, you know, I gave that information to Congress. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:34 Okay. And you said, Immaculate Constellation is an unacknowledged special access program. So a USAP. It was established following the public disclosure of the ATIP SAB programs run by Luis Elizondo in 2017. So did Lou Elizondo have something to do with Immaculate Constellation? He was, you know, before Congress a couple of years ago. And, you know, actually next to Michael Schellenberger, who was basically kind of a surrogate

Starting point is 00:38:03 for you, like talking about Immaculate Constellation, you know, handed the docs to Nancolle. Mace, along with Jeremy Corbell, very important to mention that. But when asked about Immaculate Constellation, Lou Elizondo said, Mr. Alizondo, were you read into the Immaculate Constellation Program? I would not be authorized to confirm nor deny the existence of any ongoing or past program, especially as it relates to a special access program, either by name or a trigraph. The modern hermeneutic on that is you were read in, and you know all about it. You know, so.

Starting point is 00:38:38 Yeah, the Glomara response kind of lost its utility. Everyone knows you're saying yes at this point. Right. So even a counterintel agent would know that that's going to be interpreted as like, you know, people are going to know that you were all over it. So I mean, yes, that, you know, I'm paraphrasing. I never brought the briefing itself to Congress, nor could I. It was years since that exposure and deleted.

Starting point is 00:39:03 And I never, you know, did anything like that. but that is how it was described. I don't think that's accurate. I think that is an intentional, you know, half truth included in the document to both kind of give a plausible history to the program, as well as a signature for, again, people that would spill it or, sorry, leak it later on. If anybody leaked it later on, counterintelligence could say, okay, we know, you know, these kind of signifiers were used, so we know who was exposed to this material. start searching. I've again, through other sources learned that, you know, Macat Constellation

Starting point is 00:39:43 is a relatively old program. It's an old mission, I should say, run out of the NSC. It was not created in response to Lou going forward in 2017 and revealing the atyp code word or pseudonym. So, you know, again, we're in the Hall of Mirrors. So you think that was the document, was not reflecting the reality, which is that this had been a long-standing program running up to the National Security Council, and this was sort of being claimed by Ossup, A-TIP, and these sort of modern, much smaller,

Starting point is 00:40:22 you know, nominal kind of UFO efforts. Is that right? Seems to be the case. Yeah. I'd also say that since you're briefing senior leaders, you know, you're trying to just establish a high-level view of, this and also the people who own these programs get to have a voice on what what information is

Starting point is 00:40:42 briefed outwards so that might be going on as well like we're only going to give them the bare minimum level of detail and hey we'll stick with current events um this is in 2018 uh black auras and black budgets or whatever that article was just a year prior so it it gives a plausible sort of foundation to any senior leader who was not previously read into any other UAP programs to kind of latch onto and say, okay, this is what it is. I don't have to think too much further. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because AASAP was a $22 million program. So I don't think of that as even being able to house some like 360 surveillance, global ubiquitous, you know, yeah, intel collecting network on UFS.

Starting point is 00:41:28 Yeah, and I would hazard to guess that because emaculate constellation is an operational sap, you know, it doesn't actually own any of the capabilities. It owns the mission and the tasking. The actual assets themselves, the research and development for them, the analysis is all going to be pushed down to the actual, like, functional components and most likely are in their own stovepipe saps and caps, you know, compartmentation, all,

Starting point is 00:41:57 all the way down. Yeah, got it. Okay. And some of the other things that your report mentions are just fascinating. Centcom. What is Centcom for the...

Starting point is 00:42:06 Central Command. Central Command discusses cuboid formation of metallic orbs on USG networks, U.S. government networks. There exists daytime FMV, what's FMV, full motion video.

Starting point is 00:42:19 Yes. And Fleer forward-looking infrared footage of a formation of 12 metallic orbs skimming the ocean surface at high speed before dispersing in multiple directions. That's pretty wild.

Starting point is 00:42:29 Yep. Indo Paycom. What's Indo Paycom? Indian Ocean Pacific Command. Indian Ocean Pacific Command. I probably had that wrong, actually, but yeah. All good. Large disk using clouds as concealment.

Starting point is 00:42:43 On USG networks, there exists O-PIR information, O-P-I-R. Overhead, persistent infrared. Of a large saucer-shaped UAP emerging within a dense cloud formation. Northcom is that North Northern Command? Northern Command, yep. USA. Jellyfish UAP crosses U.S.-Mexico border. South Com, Southern Command,

Starting point is 00:43:05 Tick-TAC detected by space asset in proximity of vessel. And, you know, that obviously makes you think of Nimitz in 2004 and other sort of Tick-TAC reports in and around the water, but this is much more recent. The Tic-Tac maneuvers at an altitude at or near local cloud cover and correlated electromagnetic signatures were collected by Massant. So that's the collection capability

Starting point is 00:43:28 we're talking about before. What does Massant stand for again? Measurement and signatures. Measurement and signatures intelligent. In the available footage, the Tick-TAC UAP transits rapidly through the field of regard as it transits the ocean. It's wild.

Starting point is 00:43:44 So that's this transmedium Tic-Tac being discussed. Yep. In proximity to a naval vessel. so wild again you know either it is interested in these military vessels

Starting point is 00:43:58 I have to revisit my report so I don't speak out of school but quite interesting that you have that kind of occurrence in a macate constellation with the triangle and then in this which is separate reporting stream

Starting point is 00:44:14 separate exposure or not exposures but separate intelligence you have similar kind behavior being done by a very advanced vehicle. Wild. And you also have kind of a taxonomy. So you have specific geometries that you list and general capabilities or attributes kind of associated with those forms and shapes and stuff.

Starting point is 00:44:42 So just one example, table two is a disk slash saucer. You go over orbs before that, you know, triangles after that. but the disc slash saucer, you know, size generally range from a few meters to over 20 meters in diameter. Speed exhibits capabilities for both hovering and high-speed flight, often making sudden sprints. Radar detection varies. Visual sightings are more common. They're often metallic silver or gray is common. So that's just fascinating. So do you think this is what is being sort of outputted by all of these, you know, kind of collection? So you do all these collections, you know, as part of this program, and then you funneled that into some sort of AI analytical overlay or

Starting point is 00:45:23 something. Are these attributes what comes out on the other end? Is that sort of your understanding that you're reporting on? Those sections, we are no longer talking about the emaccted constellation briefing. Those are separate intelligence sources. Okay. And those tables you're looking at are self-generated based on my exposure to many things, but they're aggregated. I would hazard to though, that they match pretty closely to what's on the inside and independent analysis that's been done on the inside because by simple fact of, you know, we're all looking at the same data, you're going to come to similar conclusions if you're operating in good faith. Yeah, so kind of similar to Dylan Borland, who I just had on a show, you have like a core experience. In his case,

Starting point is 00:46:08 it was seeing a craft. In your case, it was bumping into this document. And then you kind of vigilante after the fact are like, this is insane. I need to verify and look more into this. look at corroboration for this outside of just this core single document. Is that right? I mean, a little bit. I mean, again, I was exposed to UAP intelligence before coming across the Macat Constellation briefing and after. Because I was in the WMD mission space, these were incidents that were reported in our intelligence stream very often. Got it. So it was, you know, it wasn't like vigilantism. It was, this is part of my mission. So you knew of reports before seeing the Immaculate Consolation documents.

Starting point is 00:46:54 Correct. Of UFOs showing up at nuclear sites. Yep. Wow. Cross all sources of intelligence. So whether it's imagery intelligence and all those different forms of it to signals, to humant, to mass int, to sigint. I said signals, yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:13 So even before IMCON, that exposure, Yeah, definitely the fact of UAP was rapidly established in my mind and just through the virtue of my job. Have you seen video that's stepwise clear or sharper than what we've seen from kind of, you know, naval video, you know, forward-looking infrared coming out in 2017? As you guys know, I'm often doing shows that run three or four, sometimes even five hours. People see the finished conversation, but the real work is what comes before it. Weeks of reading and research. And then I've got to actually sustain that level of attention and detail in the room, live for hours. Sometimes I'm kind of groggy and I've flown halfway around the world for a single sit-down.

Starting point is 00:47:59 Obviously, I think that everything I cover needs to be handled really thoroughly and with the utmost respect, I have to show up at my best for my guests. And for me, coffee just doesn't do that job. Too much caffeine and I'm absolutely buzzing through the first hour and I'm crashing in the second. And that's the exact opposite of what I need. So here's what I've been using lately as a substitute. It's called neuro and it's gum, but it has natural caffeine paired with al-thianine, and that pairing is the whole story. The al-theonine smooths the caffeine out, so you get clean focus without that anxious edge.

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Starting point is 00:49:44 Yes. Wow. That's remarkable. Is that like a, that's kind of a heavy thing to sit with, I imagine the fact that, you know. Well, I never saw any beings on the inside. So I always, I'm, you know, I can guess why, because, you know, that there's probably a control system for those. All of the stuff coming out from these Department of War, you know, data,

Starting point is 00:50:07 drops, data dumps, are just very fuzzy, you know? Yeah. And so you've seen things that are way sharper than what's come out there. I would, yeah, definitely. Also, I mean, there's the difference of seeing those kind of Department of War videos on the inside in near real time, right? And the kind of level of confidence you have in what you're seeing being truly anomalous and very relevant in your day-to-day mission versus seeing it.

Starting point is 00:50:36 in its censored form and its downgraded form on the outside. So, you know, I've definitely been exposed to a mix of quality, both in terms of the visual fidelity and in the resolution of what this object is. But, I mean, you can't replicate the exposure, sorry, the experience of seeing stuff on the inside, and it's like, this happened yesterday. Right. That definitely has an emotional impact. and, you know, from a level of certainty, like, you know, I personally, you personally feel very confident that, you know, what was collected on really occurred and is important.

Starting point is 00:51:19 After seeing the Immaculate Constellation Docks, does your desire to know ramp up? So obviously, you have the sort of like smattering of reports that come in due to just incidentally, you know, you, you know, you being involved in counter WMD stuff. These things show up around sensitive nuclear assets. So obviously you're going to run into UFOs through, you know, that job. But then you see the stock and you realize that we've kind of been comprehensively sequestering, quarantining, and, you know, really, you know, gathering intelligence on UFOs globally. Do you then want to kind of like do a deeper dive?

Starting point is 00:51:59 Oh, definitely. And, you know, on a more personal level, it was, okay, I'm early in my career. How can I get into the office that does this? How can I get a job working the UAP mission set? That was the personal motivation there was less, you know, go, you know, go find all the details, kind of secret scorelike. It was more of, okay, this is very real. There's clearly a lot going on that the U.S. government isn't telling its own employees. employees, how do I get a job working this issue?

Starting point is 00:52:34 Did you try to get a job in the UFO legacy program? I'll just say that I figured out a few places where both my skill set would apply and the mission would overlap. And, you know, I was on that direction. Yeah. And what would you describe your core skill set as? man uh you know i was never formally you know uh an analyst i was never an operations officer as kind of living in a nebulous world of of strategy right okay so my my uh skill set as it were fell under net assessment and strategic development so you the first term is kind of a term of art in the in the military or the strategic culture the United States, net assessment being like you're basically weighing up blue force capabilities, red force capabilities, intelligence around all that, both, you know, your domestic picture and

Starting point is 00:53:40 your adversary's domestic picture, and not necessarily coming to a conclusion about, like, how many tanks do they have this year and how are they going to have next year? It's, okay, what does the United States need to do to achieve its interests given this net assessment of the state play in the world and using that to kind of drive our strategy and in very long-term increments 10, 20, 30, 50 years. And the grandfather of that was a man called Andrew Marshall, the Yoda of the Pentagon. There's a whole office to it called the Office of Net Assessment. Very interesting place. Yeah, they do kind of, like you said, kind of long-term strategic planning, which seems really,

Starting point is 00:54:22 like, you know, especially vis-vis China, where you have leadership that's entrenched for many years, that's not being cycled in and out. You know, it feels like a real deficit when it comes to, you know, U.S. planning. Yeah, I think we keep those cards close to our chess, rightly so, but maybe too close because if not everybody's, you know, playing to the same music,

Starting point is 00:54:43 you get a lot of wasted effort, and I think, unfortunately, that has occurred, both as a consequence of, you know, stove piping and then excessive classification, compartmentation, whatever you want to call it. What happens between you, potentially wanting to work the UFO legacy program and you saying, you know, being kind of exasperated and wanting to blow the whistle instead? I mean, it was really, you know, current events. I was just minding my own business, really, continuing my career.

Starting point is 00:55:17 And because it was in WMD, that meant more and more exposure to UAP and more and more exposure to, like, the communities inside the, the, the, the, see in the Pentagon that we're tracking this and discussing it. And it really came down to, I guess, you know, learning from people in that community that Congress needed whistleblowers, that this was not being managed correctly, that it was being withheld from both the executive leadership and the congressional leadership, that, you know, there is no oversight. This program has kind of gone rogue. You know, I didn't, I've kind of developed in my view of, of what that situation is. But at the time, it is kind of presented as, you know, this was, this is a consequence of

Starting point is 00:56:12 kind of Cold War secrecy. It's, it's been out, you know, on its own for too long. And now we're trying to reel it back in without exposing capabilities, you know, help us do that. Then there was another line of communication that was saying like people's lives are at risk both because of the security measures being taken to keep the secret, the kind of corruption or unprofessionalism that has seeped into the program just by virtue of being so in the black, so unilaterally managed, and that there's, you know,

Starting point is 00:56:47 potential like external threats that are going to put these people's lives at risk. So that combination of, no executive or no executive and congressional oversight, at least to the civilian leadership, plus people's lives being in danger is what pushed me to become a whistleblower. And in fact, I was asked to be a whistleblower. Even after hearing that information, I felt like I didn't have anything that would be sufficiently useful to Congress. Were you asked by Congress or who? Someone else who was who was you know interfacing with Congress and then you know kind of did a delicate dance of like here's here's some code words.

Starting point is 00:57:34 Yeah, you should go. It doesn't matter how little you know Congress really does need it. And yeah, I followed that. And before, I think it's really important to note that before going to Congress, before, you know, trying to potentially work legacy and then becoming a whistleblower, you also, reported the this quote unquote spillage is I guess the term oh yeah where you know you bumped into this classified special access program doc and you realized you shouldn't have and you also realized it shouldn't just be sitting there on the server and so you reported it to the proper authorities yeah that was years before becoming a whistleblower um I I yeah I'll just briefly tell the story

Starting point is 00:58:13 um you know once I found out you know the proper process and kind of sat with it for a while like well, I saw this thing. I got to tell someone at this point. Yeah, so I went to my first, like, sort of direct report, showed it to him. Um, he basically recommended to me, uh, delete that and pretend you never saw it. And then he just left the room. And I was like, well, damn, uh, old heads telling me that, uh, do I follow his advice or do I keep trying to do like what the procedures say? Um, So I followed the procedure, went to the next level of authority, that person said, okay, you need to go to SAPCO, special access program coordinating office, and report this. So then I went there.

Starting point is 00:59:05 That was the third kind of reporting chain. And that's where I was told like, okay, you don't need to sign anything. Go away. Very mysterious kind of interaction. And then the file was deleted. And I just went on with my life. There was no outcome from that. I just, you know, privately came to the conclusion.

Starting point is 00:59:23 Like, well, that was, that was real. Yeah. I'm going to follow their advice and not talk about that anymore and continue in my career. Were you able to independently verify that Immaculate Constellation was a real program outside of just this one kind of PowerPoint you saw? Okay. Yes. And this is through just other personnel who would know or, yeah, people that had placement

Starting point is 00:59:47 in access, as they say. So, you know, I, and you take their word for it, are, were they definitely not in coordination with one another? Were they in disparate sort of roles where they would have the access and knowledge? Yeah, I mean, to the best of my ability to determine, for sure. And if it was just rumor, you know, that's probably not enough, but having seen the source material itself and gone through the anomalous sort of reporting process and having the broader context of exposure to UAP, no doubt in my mind, it's sort of, you know, it's. real mission, real program. Does any of this have to do with the National Reconnaissance office and their sentient program?

Starting point is 01:00:27 I mean, to a degree, you know, you could think of that as like an enabler to the mission. The sentient program would have come online to my understanding after, like, you know, Immaculate Constellation had already existed, but would have been integrated with it as, you know, leveraging artificial intelligence to do sort of the sourcing, uh, and to, basically live detection and censorship or compartmentalization rather of these collection events to both maintain sort of the internal security control and then but more importantly to get eyes on to an event rapidly to collect more instead of you know having to wait days or months again what about there's a program at the national geospatial agency called marsupial

Starting point is 01:01:13 does that related at all no comment okay no comment And anything dealing with like CIA's Office of Global Access or rapid response or anything like that? So I never was exposed to, you know, their relevance to the UAP mission, but I find all of the public reporting that's been done on it very plausible. Yeah. And so obviously these things are being spotted globally. For me, I'm like 100% on that, on the, you know, these anomalous objects obviously showing up in aerial spaces and really sense. sensitive military facilities, nuclear sites, national labs. That feels like almost like you got to really be, you know, dogmatically skeptical,

Starting point is 01:01:59 a bad actor or like not very smart to like accept that that's true. And so Immaculate Constellation corroborating that we're measuring that is very interesting. And, you know, I'd say remarkable unto itself. But to me, there's always this cutoff between that and like this multi-generational, you decades-long crash retrieval and reverse engineering program, are you also confident in that? And are you as confident that we have, you know, the tracking over here of just these aerial objects

Starting point is 01:02:30 as we are like nuts and bolts material that we're working on and we have NIH-derived tech? I mean, yes, no direct exposure to the reverse engineering program, at least from my time on the inside. You know, you meet people afterwards and make of it what you will. I think there's enough there there, though, to say that something like that is ongoing and is ran out of our national labs for sure and our defense contractors most probably, and that there has been successes.

Starting point is 01:03:12 The crash retrieval program, I mean, I kind of wonder if that's a bit of a misnomer intentionally so, like, how often are these things just crashing or if they are crashing? Is it so much an accident as it is like, you know, is it more of a result of some sort of conflict between either between these things or have we developed some capability to bring at least a subset of these type of vehicles, you know, down? And also, you know, do you think we have that? There's the archaeological aspect of that as well, which I think is probably more interesting. because then you're getting into, well, that's kind of proof just through geological processes that these technologies have been here for a long time, right? If you're digging something up under, you know, tens of meters of sediment deposited on the ocean floor, like that takes time to build up.

Starting point is 01:04:06 And do you think there is an archaeological component where we're finding these things? I do. Really? I mean, that's something that I've since come to both believe and kind of learn more about. Yeah, I think that's There's, that's definitely

Starting point is 01:04:23 One of the sort of Do you think that's... Do you think that's more... I mean, Bob Lazard said that, you know, the craft that he worked on was from an archaeological dig On the Ocean Floor and it came from the Navy. Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:40 Do you think that that's more common maybe than actual crashes? I would, I mean, just my personal opinion, yes. I think shooting down these things, especially if the category of these anomalous craft that are non-human in origin is probably dangerous to do. But I am not briefed into the nature of our relationship with these beings and what level of cooperation or competition we have with them. So I won't make a value statement on that, like some will, where it's like, oh, we're shooting down our space brothers. I wish it was true, but I don't think we are in such a, you know, magnanimous position with these beings. Are you high conviction in anything when it comes to UFOs or anomalous non-human intelligence that is very kind of contrarian and goes against kind of the prevailing, you know, understanding of how these things work, you know, either from a, you know, intent perspective or crash retrieval or reverse engineering, perspective or like what the government's relationship is to these things?

Starting point is 01:05:55 I don't know. I'm, you know, I'm not from UFOology. Yeah, sure. I, I don't have the background or the sort of, you know, the lines drawn in the sand. Like, I'm in the camp where, you know, there's no such thing as a threat.

Starting point is 01:06:11 That's all government propaganda to the, oh, it's all a threat. So maybe that's contrarian. I think it's a mix. think just like humanity itself, you know, there's violent actors, there's good people that are violent under duress too or for good reasons. Yeah, I think, I think, like I said, the reality is more complicated than we're allowed to believe. And saying it's all this, it's all that is, is reductive and unhelpful. When you were speaking with George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell, you said these things might be made for purpose, as if they're,

Starting point is 01:06:52 they're like made to spec for specific functions. Yeah. What makes you believe that? That's looking specifically at sort of the, you could almost consider them like tactical vehicles, things that are on the smaller side, especially things that are like irregularly shaped, where it looks like they have either things that are like,

Starting point is 01:07:13 you know, custom configured antennas or like manipulator kind of objects or, or parts of it that seem like it's for storage of physical things. things. So yeah, that's kind of my personal analysis of a subset of UAP that was, you know, that was familiar with that seemed like, yeah, they have some definite purses. That's not an aerodynamic shape, even if maybe that doesn't matter so much. So much of this is like very simple geometry. So when you have things that have more complex or, you know, asymmetric geometry, my mind goes towards, well, it's fulfilling some sort of specific role, task, purpose.

Starting point is 01:07:52 and then you know you kind of see them interacting in areas where hey maybe they're picking up stuff you kind of kind of lends weight towards towards that in my mind what would they be picking up uh you know they seem to be interested

Starting point is 01:08:08 in certain mineral deposits so it might be you know some level of extraction or sampling there and uh it's uncomfortable but I think there's some sort of extraction and sampling of earth's flora and fauna possibly human beings

Starting point is 01:08:28 yes and probably not limited a specific subset of human beings I don't I so when we're talking about what the crafter use were I don't know if there's any relation to that you know I can

Starting point is 01:08:44 have separate speculation that you know there maybe there's certain categories of humanity that are more interesting to them, but that's not from inside information. That's kind of my own thoughts. Do you think that we've made agreements with the beings? Yes. For several reasons, I mean, the most defensible is just from an analysis of the situation.

Starting point is 01:09:18 I come from international affairs, diplomatic history, international competition, and so looking at behavior to kind of divine intent, capabilities only get you so far in that realm. The behavior, especially between human players involved, it does not seem explainable unless there is some sort of agreement, both between nations and imposed or arrived at between them and the third parties, specifically related to like the secrecy measures, the lack of any sort of public or official disclosure. The military arrangements we've had in informal treaties, like there's that 1970-something outer space treaty where we agree to like notify each other.

Starting point is 01:10:10 If we detect UFOs, I mean, that's straight up an example of an agreement. Yeah, it's open source. Anybody can look it up. I think it's 1971 salt talks between, you know, the U.S. and Soviets. And they're saying we have to coordinate around, you know, UFOs showing up in sensitive airspace. Yeah. And that there's some, you know, bits and information kind of picked up from the inside. And since then from people that are positioned to know that points towards, yeah, there is at least some basic sort of.

Starting point is 01:10:45 set of agreements between the United States and some sort of third party and most likely other countries have some sort of similar, or alliance blocks have some sort of similar arrangement. What do you think we're conceding and what do you think we're gaining through these agreements? I don't know if we gain that much. I don't think any level of altruism has been displayed. I think it's more. So we're being submitted essentially. We have to make, we have to make these agreements. Yeah. Or maybe, you know, also just agreements doesn't always have to be in exchange. It could be being brought into awareness that, you know, these are the rules. You now, humans, because of your capabilities and population spread are being, you know, rising to our level of attention. This is kind of how Earth operates at a certain level. So you need to do these things to stay in sort of the established. precedence of life on earth.

Starting point is 01:11:51 Yeah. Interesting. And what do you think they're getting out of it? Because if they're, you know, 360 dominating us, why even, you know, engage in some sort of explicit diplomacy versus just like, you know, take what you want and, you know, come and go as you please? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:11 So to set the foundation for that, I mean, starting to be more open. I have learned that it is the oral tradition in the legacy program itself, that agreements were struck between the United States and a third party in possession of this technology, and that that agreement, in broad terms, has two kind of arrangements. One was that there's certain areas that the United States, within its borders, you know, needs to stay away from that that is essentially someone else's territory. So no developments there, no military operations there, no commercial or human activity. That's one area of the agreement. And then the other side is some sort of access to and communication with humans of their choice. And that that is the nature of at least one very old agreement, sometime in the Truman and Eisenhower era that was arrived at. I'm sure that there are things in the lore that give more detail.

Starting point is 01:13:21 I can't speak to the validity of those things, but I'm just sharing that now that that is in the legacy program itself, at least a line of not thought, but narrative. Yeah, I mean, in the lore, you have this idea of this griata treaty where Eisenhower, you know, under the guise of going to the dentist in Palm, brings in 1954 instead jets off to Edwards Air Force Base where some diplomatic relations are engaged with with these beings and what the sort of common story is is that the beings are given access to humans for medical experimentation to American citizens but that's interesting so you

Starting point is 01:14:08 think there's an oral tradition where you know in the legacy program this is undocumented but it's sort of well known among people who work on, you know, UFO, you know, crash retrievals, reverse engineering or tracking that some sort of treaties were engaged in. Agreements is the term that, you know, was told to me. And that might be because treaties have to be, you know, ratified by Congress. But a business agreement does not. So I don't know anything about this create a treaty. When there's that kind of level of detail, I'm kind of skeptical, especially given the amount of time that has passed. If you're running, if all this is real, like I really believe it is and have direct knowledge that aspects of it are concretely real, then we would be running, you know, we, our security apparatus would inject disinformation when there's leaks or to preempt, you know, any sort of revelation that would be, you know, counter to our interests. So I think there's a lot of half-truths or complete fabrications out there that have kind of become unquestioned parts of the UFO community or UFO narrative. Yeah. But I think there's a core truth there.

Starting point is 01:15:26 And it makes, to me, it makes sense, you know, that there has to be some sort of agreement between us and other nations regarding this topic and us and a third party. Otherwise, our strategic behavior does not make sense. So it's almost like the UFO legacy program. has this like hermetic sort of unspoken oral tradition like things aren't written down is that kind of what you're implying yes um and you know developed sources since then and been approached by people that you know are i think there is roughly a split between those who want reform and some degree of this to come out and those who don't very very much do not want any of it to come out um and and dylan boerlin kind of hinted at this, or actually pretty direct about it with you, where he said that there was a choice, a decision made to stop briefing new people in the legacy program on the history of the program so that, you know, you're kind of just, you know, getting into the next generation of people

Starting point is 01:16:30 that have no background and into the ground truth of, you know, where this came from, what has happened and why decisions were made. You're starting fresh and you don't, you get to avoid the sort of complications of the past, probably except for a very small circle of senior leadership who would have the need to know. So that is kind of pointing towards, well, why is it an oral tradition? It's because you have a bifurcation now of people who were, you know, briefed into legacy before that decision was made to stop telling people the history or some version of the history of the program. And those who have since come into the program did not receive that history, but people talk and people have questions, especially with something as significant

Starting point is 01:17:10 as this, hence the oral tradition. It's so wild. You know, you would think that this is like the most important stuff. Which is why you would keep it secret, especially when it's things like agreements that maybe were the U.S. was compelled to sign and probably may have terms unfavorable to us. You certainly wouldn't want something like that leaking, especially when you present yourself as the world's hyperpower, you know. And to be clear, I'm not the only person out here talking about this, neither is Dylan's

Starting point is 01:17:40 in Borland, David Grush, under oath, was asked about agreements and said that he could not provide further detail, but he hopes that the people in the legacy program would come forward with that information. Yeah, possibly an indication that we've made agreements. Yes. And, you know, when it comes to access to human beings, it brings to mind the story of Dan Sherman, you know, and above black, and, you know, that's his book, I interviewed him, and he was this electronics intelligence guy, you know, at the Air Force.

Starting point is 01:18:10 and he was doing this sort of continuing education thing back in Maryland. He went into this NSA complex and somebody top brass at the Air Force brings him in and starts telling him that his mother was genetically, he was genetically altered as a fetus in the womb. His mother was abducted when she was pregnant with him. And because of that, he was given these sort of this hypersensitivity and this ability to communicate with non-human intelligence. And 1960, they started a project.

Starting point is 01:18:43 It was called Project Preserved Destiny. My mother was one of the selected targets or whatever you want to call it. And they did the genetic management. That was his words, genetic management. The result of it was that it gave me the ability to have this communications. It gets even crazier than that. He's given these sort of bineral beat headphones. He's shown a sign wave.

Starting point is 01:19:09 and told to sort of lock on to the sine wave and collapse the sine wave on these sort of graphical interface computers. He takes these pills and he hears these tones and he's meant to sort of communicate with non-human intelligence. And then he claims to have whole conversations with aliens.

Starting point is 01:19:25 And all of this would seem kind of nuts if it weren't for the fact that you apparently can FOIA, you know, Project Preserve Destiny, you know, with vis-a-vis the Air Force. The Air Force then forwards it to the NSA, which is kind of a tell that it. It's a real program. And, you know, all of the facts line up, you know, both bases in Italy, Sanvedo de Normany, and Offit line up with his descriptions of them.

Starting point is 01:19:49 His electronics intelligence, you know, knowledge seems totally legit. And then somebody very senior, former, very senior in government that I know says that that NSA building is real and that, you know, some other people think that his story is totally above board. And the thing he was downloading from these beings, one of them was called Bones and one was Spock. So they were sort of Star Trek inspired just the names that he decided to name them casually, you know, because he was so like, I think shot. He had to like make fun out of how ridiculous this sort of job was is they were giving him coordinates and descriptions of people being abducted. So he became, he went from this electronics intelligence guy to this alien signals intelligence where it was almost. almost like this predictive mapping of, you know, where human beings in the U.S. were being abducted. Yeah, it's, it's pretty wild, but it's one, I mean, that book is one of the very few UFO books I've read,

Starting point is 01:20:54 and only read that book specifically because it was told to me by insiders that it was a credible disclosure and basically the real deal. I think that is some evidence of, you know, sort of the implementation of these agreements, especially over duration, because it's not like he was brought in to figure this out. He was brought in basically as a tool to be part of an operation that was well-established. There was an SOP for everything that he was just kind of brought into, executed,

Starting point is 01:21:26 and then at some point, you know, left from, seems like a pretty established system to me. And I think it's, you know, just a commentary on that would be, you know, if you take that at base value, which I think we can to a degree, and then you look at things like that leaked phone call between Kit Green and a. K. Randall May. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:21:54 And they're talking about basically the other end of that, which is the contactees out there that have been contacted by these beings that presumably. would have been identified to someone, what was his name in Project Preserve Destiny? Dan Sherman. Dan Sherman, that would have been identified to Dan Sherman in those communications. And these people would have been the human assets in the field going and checking up on these people to figure out essentially, you know, what their experience was like, what kind of communications they had with these beings and feed that back to the Central Intelligence Agency. That all seems very plausible to me if this is all real, which I think some degree of it is.

Starting point is 01:22:32 It seems plausible to me too, especially my friend Greg Malazzi, he made this great documentary on Andre Pujarich. It's called Mind Traveler. And he was all over kind of the, there was literally like a machine that Pujarich used to, and it was, again, this was kind of, he's the father of kind of see a lot of CIA mind control stuff in MK Ultra, but he's bumping into nonhuman intelligences and having these quote unquote space kids and Austin and New York channel. But they're bumping into this quote unquote nine, this. counsel of nine beings. And so all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them. And allegedly, the nine would come through even through these kids. And, you know, it's, I guess they line up with Egyptian deities, but, you know, there seemed to be some sort of non-human intelligence component that they're bumping into. And Greg, who's done, you know, he literally spent 11 years making this movie, has done probably more thorough research on Pujaroz than anyone I know.

Starting point is 01:23:32 says that there are tons of parallels between the techniques that Pujaharich was using and what Dan Sherman was meant to do later. And so then you could say, oh, this is just some weird, you know, gifted and talented education style, you know, a parapsychology program where you're testing people's kind of mind matter abilities. But it almost seems like the parapsychology and the mind control stuff, you bump into the channel of the non-human intelligences. Like you bump into this like much wider epistemology that involves like a lot of life beyond mankind. Fascinating. I think we're getting into the sort of consciousness aspect or the sigh aspect of all this, which seem, you know, I have, I can only offer my personal opinions on that with maybe an appeal to authority of, you know, there's things I've been exposed to that lead me to believe there's a foundation to all of this. but I'm still under secrecy obligations, so.

Starting point is 01:24:36 But I mean, there's also, there's an open story. There's Stargate, which ran, you know, from the 70s to the 90s that, you know, the CIA's on record doing remote viewing and in sensitive cases. Jimmy Carter said the most impressive thing from his entire presidency from 1976 to 1980 was Rosemary Clooney, this remote viewer in 1979, finding this T. to U-22 Russian cargo plane. And she was given the map of Africa as a target because this thing had crashed and they didn't want to kind of, you know, bias her. And she circles three square miles in Zaire where they find the plane. So like there are things like that over and over again, you know, Joe McMonagall, who's one of the best remote viewers known as remote viewer number one, when the Legion of Merit for I think almost 200 or around 200 instances of adding to, you know, know, real military intel.

Starting point is 01:25:30 So this is, it's, it's widely known at this point that that's, that that's real. And then too many people don't then extrapolate, okay, your reality is entirely differently, it works entirely differently than you think it does, if that's real. Mm-hmm. Because if that's real, like, all things are possible, right? Like, mental processes are entangled with reality itself. Yeah. And I would, I would hazard to guess that some, some of these,

Starting point is 01:25:58 entities operate on that level and have far greater knowledge of it and indeed have technology that interacts with it and enables it for them and that essentially, you know, they're competing in a whole another domain than we are, or at least have been historically, you know, kind of a very profound asymmetric advantage, especially if we continue to discount it and not factor it into our lives and our behavior. I think the parents, Parasychology stuff is in some ways, I don't want to say the foundation of all of this, but it has to be very fundamental to understanding the nature of reality, if any of that stuff is real. And I think of Hal put off being the head of Stargate, you know, the head of this CIA psychic spy program,

Starting point is 01:26:47 and seemingly the tip of the spear, at least in the open source world, when it comes to UFO propulsion and UFO science. And I don't think that's a coincidence. No. I'm with you there. I think they're definitely linked. I think some degree of the interests of the others or of the non-human intelligence or anomalous intelligence is some degree of their interest is tied to whatever this latent capability is in humanity, whether it's to suppress it because if we continue to evolve in that direction, we eventually become, you know, long-term a competitor to them or to leverage it for their own use, whether that's something. as, you know, benign as controlling humanity on Earth through a psychic hierarchy as a form of colonization, essentially, or actually using those abilities for specific purposes. I think both are equally plausible. Yeah, and, you know, there are all sorts of things from the remote viewing program, like, you know, Skip Atwater had this program, and I think Pat Price was tasked with

Starting point is 01:27:53 remote viewing, I think these bases, these alien bases all over the world, Mount Zyle in Australia, Mount Hayes in Alaska, Mount Perdido in Spain, all sort of show up. And I wonder if those are the no-go zones that might be discussed in this treaty. You also have Secret Mountain in Arizona. Mount Shasta, I think was one of them too. Mount Shasta. You have these plans. You have these places. places that you see orbs going into the mountain, crafts going into the mountain, and

Starting point is 01:28:29 people go disappearing, and other ones Mount In Yangani in Zimbabwe, a lot of anomalous stuff seems to occur around these, you know, territories. Do you think those might be the no-go zones that we were told to stay away from in

Starting point is 01:28:44 these treaties or the agreements with the beings? I find that plausible, yes. I wish I knew the specific area, so I could confirm it for you, but I think on that, and if you're able to sort of correlate, you know, sightings to these hot spots of activity and then look at, you know, human population around them and where maybe desirable areas mysteriously aren't occupied or desirable mineral deposits and things aren't being exploited,

Starting point is 01:29:14 that, you know, you start to build a picture of where these territorial limits are. I think, you know, the other thing around, around, you know, this idea of a lot of this stuff being downstream of Paris psychology. Do you know the tagline of Arrow, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is publicly supposed to be sort of pouring cold water on all the UFO stuff? I mean, that's kind of, they've act as, they act as either kind of suppressing this information or collecting this info and maybe, you know, trying to reinforce legacy structures. They sort of seem to act like a fly trap. But do you know their tagline? I mean, it's in Latin, and I probably have it wrong, but the translation is something like the universe is what our thoughts make of it, but maybe you have it. No, that's exactly pretty much right. Our life is what our thoughts make it. Okay. Yeah. Strange motto for an all-domain anomaly resolution office. Yeah, especially one that's like nominally seeming to, you know, kind of downplay and dismiss all these sightings and experiences. It's very strange. It's like you're admitting that the parapsychology stuff,

Starting point is 01:30:24 like this Cartesian duality thing that we've been living in for, you know, centuries is wrong. It's even more radical in some ways saying we're not alone as a species. It's saying like, no, our entire scientific framework is, you know, you could turn that upside down and consciousness is fundamental. It's a very human thing to do to give a wink and a nod when you think nobody except that those who are brief will know what you're saying. there's this great book by a guy called Trevor Paglin.

Starting point is 01:30:54 I think it's like, it's basically what it is is a compilation of Black Project patches. And he goes through and analyzes the symbology or the symbolism used in those patches and connects those sometimes to classified programs or classified capabilities. And, you know, humans are humans, man. You're working on something cool. You want to share it with your buddies, but you've got to keep it secret. and it's fun to hold that secret, especially in plain sight. So interesting motto.

Starting point is 01:31:23 Absolutely. Strange motto. Something you said that I find fascinating because I think it adds a really important element or piece and actually conflicts with, I think, a popular conception of how this stuff works, is that a lot of UFO programs, including Immaculate Constellation, rolls up to the National Security Council. And that sits under the White House and the president. And traditionally, I think in,

Starting point is 01:31:48 UFO lore, people think of the president as this sort of temp that, like, you know, isn't given access to any of the goods. Maybe somebody like George H.W. Bush, who is also director of the CIA for a very long time, might know what's up. But otherwise, they're kind of left in the dark. So you actually are saying that UFO programs roll up to the president. We talk about the mind like it's separate from the body, but it's not. Your body is this insanely intricate system of interconnected processes.

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Starting point is 01:34:53 Again, that's Shopify.com slash Jesse, J-E-S-S-S-E, $1 to try Shopify, which is the state-of-the-art solution in e-commerce today. Thank you so much to Shopify for sponsoring today's episode. So you actually are saying that UFO programs roll up to the president. At least this one does when it comes to macute Constellation. It appears that the cognizant authority, the ultimate, like, where the buck stops is in the National Security Council in a specific director in there. Probably has for quite a while. The NSC is a funny place, you know, nominally it's a coordination body, but, you know, people, heads of departments and agencies co-chair, you know, or their dual-hatted to the NSC, and you have.

Starting point is 01:35:48 have agency or agency and department staff get detailed there. It's essentially, you know, a de facto governing body within the executive branch certainly has gotten quite large, kind of like ODI and I itself. It's in the many hundreds at this point. And do you think everybody on the National Security Council is aware of UFO programs? No. Okay. So some small subset? Yes. Yeah. And would you have a sense of who that subset would be? Yeah, you know, give me an orchard. I can point to your likely candidates and probably at least one for sure.

Starting point is 01:36:32 And so, like, here's what I don't understand about the UFO legacy structure. It sometimes feels like deputies are red-in, but then the people at the top aren't red-in, you know? So, like, yeah, what does that mean? How do you coordinate? Because the government is not super well coordinated often. It's this clunky kind of blobby bureaucracy. And so, you know, I look at UAP Gerb's channel and he, like, maps the legacy program. And it's amazing where he's talking about federally funded research and development centers

Starting point is 01:37:08 and how they carve out these special access programs, you know, inside of the prime contractors. but those roll up to, you know, DOE, CIA, DS&T, and, you know, all these different things. And I'm like, the amount of interagency, you know, it cuts across so many different orgs. And so why wouldn't you see more spillage or more leakage? And that would be my one question. My second question is, how is it all coordinated? Is it like we have non-humans in the government and they like, they wink, wink, nudge, to each other and then they, that's how they, they coordinate parapsychologically or something?

Starting point is 01:37:46 Like, how does this work? Hmm. Yeah, a broad question. So I think more legacy program lore, which has since filtered out, is that there was a decision made in the Nixon administration into the Ford administration to essentially privatize this to a large degree, or at the very least, the sort of custody of the materials, the research of the materials that we've recovered, or devices and craft that we've obtained. So I think we're kind of looking in a big picture, a bifurcation between, you know, the reverse engineering and exploitation and derivative tech has basically gone all private industry. And then you have just by virtue of the sort of revolving door function in government,

Starting point is 01:38:41 If Northrop Grumman's president then becomes the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, he doesn't need to be briefed into what Northrop Grumman owns. You can just align resources and line activities with the legacy program while he's doing his temporary duty in government. But then you get towards, well, there's an operational side of this, clearly. You know, we track these things. We respond to them in the field. It's more involved than just a laboratory looking. at stuff. And in that, I think you get, you just, you have the virtue of military authority.

Starting point is 01:39:20 You can do, you can do a lot of things in the military that'll never see the lie today. And people won't even want to leak it. You know, there's a, there's a brotherhood there. There's a tradition of silence there. And, you know, when you think you're doing the right thing and part of that right thing is keeping the secret from humanity or those who don't deserve to know, your incentives start to align towards, you know, generational silence. And that's another point, which is that, you know, I've come to learn that legacy program across its many aspects is a, in some ways, the security is maintained through trusted families, through family lineages.

Starting point is 01:39:59 Really, yes, you know, tracing back to the Manhattan Project as one. And this is not a unique security feature to the legacy program itself. In the intelligence community, you know, there's, a well-known phenomena of generational intelligence officers, people's whose family lines have been involved in intelligence for multiple iterations. They are highly trusted because of that. Interesting. So when you say it runs in families, it's these long-time kind of Intel families, or is it like ultra-wealthy, like elite, kind of yielded age? At Volvo, safety is not a feature. It's our purpose. Rigorous crash testing. Decades of learning

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Starting point is 01:41:09 Yeah. I've been saying recently, you know, you kind of have sort of a, the correct political model for how this works is more aligned with some sort of form of neo-feudalism. You know, you have different fiefdoms. You know, they defend the realm together, but inside the realm, they're competing with each other

Starting point is 01:41:28 and protecting their own little corners of the kingdom. Yeah, wow. And you mentioned Northrop Grumman. With Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, You mentioned that they had kind of a dirty tricks department or like literally like groups that solely tried to kind of, you know, engage in sort of retributions and recriminations against anybody sort of talking about this stuff in public and they will literally mess with them personally. Was that right?

Starting point is 01:42:01 Yeah. They seem to have been given for some time now the authority to implement program security through their corporate security forces and that they are yeah responsible for sort of the deniable actions taken to preserve the secrecy and punish people who step out of line there's a spectrum of means that they will they will use to do that but um they certainly seem to be one of the current uh bad actors in town and i believe the sister of one of the authors of that wall street journal article

Starting point is 01:42:37 that was sort of completely dismissing UFOs. They even said the Bob Salas incident at Malmstrom nuclear base in 1967 where he was at Oscar launch facility underground and you had this red orb over top and nine out of 10 missiles went into no-go mode under his watch concurrent with this orb showing up, this red orb making right angle turns and stuff. They said that they wheeled an EMP up to the base

Starting point is 01:43:06 and fried all the electronics on site with people present. It makes no sense. This is before EMPs were even operational. But I think the sister of the author, one of the co-authors of the article, was actually like this, you know, high up VP at Northrop Grumman, which I find interesting.

Starting point is 01:43:25 That's a very implausible story to begin with. I'm surprised the Wall Street Journal would publish some nonsense like that. But it makes more sense when you realize, yeah, you have a blood and treasure involved. Yeah, it's total nonsense. I also went to the Wall Street Journal and I advocated for an article to be published by somebody who I know and other people know, he's kind of high up in the UFO conversation. He co-authored an article with a former Secretary of Defense who was upset that while he was Secretary of Defense, he wasn't given access to UFO program oversight. And they rejected that for their op-ed section.

Starting point is 01:44:05 And then they published this fake nonsense talking about a non-nuclear EMP as a cover story for what was clearly a UFO event in 1967. It doesn't make any sense. It implies literally that you have an a priori agenda and you're not reporting the facts. Yeah, I'm of the opinion and have knowledge to back up that opinion that the mainstream media, especially the more established outlets, you know, they have their unacknowledged intelligence. liaisons inside their offices that will, you know, quash stories and pump up others. People in the national security reporting sort of environment, they go to places like Odie and I on a weekly basis and get their briefing for what they're going to talk about next week. We live in a

Starting point is 01:44:53 controlled media environment. Mockingbird never stopped. It's pretty disappointing to know that that's the reality of our situation and it's so widespread and so ingrained in like a cultural value of most people that these are our trusted sources of information there's no way they would lie to us there's no way the CIA operates domestically um you can shout from the rooftops how wrong that is but people don't want to believe yeah and playing devil's advocate for a moment on um northrop for example being involved or at least being able to do useful stuff with UFOs, they've been hanging out at like probably like a 70 to 100 billion dollar market cap for a long time. Like, they're lagging. They're lagging in hypersonics and all these sort of conventional prosaic capabilities. I think there's this, you know, famous shots across the bow that Trump has, you know,

Starting point is 01:45:50 delivered to them where they're like, he's like, get your shit together, basically. So are, can they do anything with any of these UFOs or do they just retrieve them? You know, it's now been, it's, you know, probably more publicly known that, you know, others have speculated that Jake Barber worked at North Brumman, for example. We recovered an egg, and we just call it the egg because that's what it was. It's like a giant white egg, 20 feet longitudinally, spherical with a little bit of an asymmetrical, three-dimensional, rounding shape to it. So if he's actually retrieving these like egg-shaped crafts,

Starting point is 01:46:26 are we able to do anything with these things, given that, again, these prime contractors It's not quarter over quarter growth wins the day. You show up at any sort of internal board meeting and you're like, look, we have this like zero point thing. I think a lot of people internally would be like really fighting to monetize that. Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, I'm not from the financial or economic like kind of background. So to me, to a level, it kind of doesn't matter what the numbers are for the money when you're talking about these capabilities, like alternative energy sources or really destructive

Starting point is 01:47:10 weapons capabilities or really penetrating surveillance capabilities. And couple that with essentially long-term government contracts. You know, there might be a public valuation, right? But the private one for those and they know is substantially higher and almost it's not the money that matters, it's holding those capabilities that matter. There might be cutouts, shell corporations, games being played there as well. That seems very likely to me. You know, also related to the markets, like, I feel like, you know, you're kind of seeing

Starting point is 01:47:53 for the first time in several decades the monopoly of the prime defense contractors being challenged by newcomers from Silicon Valley and the sort of the new tech development scene. And I think part of what is part of the fight of current disclosure is these new groups seeking access to derivative tech or the actual samples themselves. And that, you know, some of the political competition happening behind the scenes and shaping hearings and shaping what disclosure is is a result of essentially new blood elbowing its way into, into the realm of the old blue blood dynasties, which is, you know, in some ways it's good for disclosure because competition creates uncertainty and creates openings for truth to come out. But you're at the same time looking at, well,

Starting point is 01:48:45 this is a new crop of elites entering into the elite status quo system. What change is that really going to bring about unknown? Sure. Yeah, so you talk about this blue blood, elites. And you've mentioned, I think, with George and Jeremy as well, this kind of international cabal, which both has leverage on our federal government and is deeply involved with the UFO issue. Can you say more about those things? Yeah, I think that's a, that might be a whole podcast on itself. I might need to revisit notes. But basically, I mean, outside of UFOs, we are in real time learning just how

Starting point is 01:49:30 little our representative democracy matters. The real power, the real decisions, the real planning, all is happening outside of government and just happens to be implemented through it. The decisions are made months, years, in advance of any sort of action by Congress or the executive or even our military. One Nation under blackmail, is a great book series. How power is really executed in a society that doesn't question it gets pretty ugly. You know, so that inevitably will lead back to the UFO subject. It is the apex of power, at least for humanity at this point. It is, you know, the core secret of the United States government and probably other governments,

Starting point is 01:50:21 the type of technology they possess and what they've done with it. And so, you know, for people and families that kind of see democracy is inconvenient at best, unnecessary at worst, you know, I think we're running up against their own interests and not disclosing this because it will directly challenge their economic, social, and political power. And they want to avoid that. And so if we were to bring somebody from some super elite family here, like a, you know, I don't know, proverbial example would be like a Roth's child or something, do you think they would say, oh, yeah, I know all about UFO? Or say, we gave them truth to them. Would they say, oh, yeah, we got a warehouse and my family has, you know, we have this material or like, what do you think their knowledge, you know, really is? Because sometimes I'll challenge people, you know, on this and I'll say, look, there's. this interesting history where the Rockefeller seems super into UFOs, whatever. And then I get back,

Starting point is 01:51:27 like, actually, it's just way lamer than you think. Like, you know, there's like, you know, they say it's like the third generation problem with emperors or whatever, where there's, you know, maybe at one point, these barons were like extremely, you know, successful and they created these sort of oligopolistic, you know, cartels, but like now it's sort of in decay or, I don't know. What do you think? Do you think they would know vital secrets about UFOs? I think, yes, some extremely wealthy families do and have known about it probably longer than there has been a legacy program. Any examples? You know, none that I have a high enough confidence in to say publicly yet.

Starting point is 01:52:08 But I think, you know, as a broad net look at old European families and old American banking families and you'll, you'll probably, if you do a thorough investigation, find some evidence there. I think if we factor in the archaeological aspect to this, I think it's very plausible that some of these families have in their own collections, NIHI artifacts on a small scale that maybe they didn't know what to do with for a long time, but in the past decades, they've since, you know, science has advanced for them to start exploiting that on their own. Maybe some of these allow them to communicate.

Starting point is 01:52:50 with these beings and you know they receive competitive advantages that way aside from just like you know the study and exploitation of the technology itself you know we're i mean we're in speculative territory but i think it we need to go there because um you know this seems to be very old and uh people people know people know about it people have been using it uh you tweeted something that i think is fascinating and I've mulled over for a long time. Can I read you this tweet? Yeah, I probably can't say much about it, but sure. Hey, at Elon Musk, interested in a real asymmetric advantage to wield in this political adventure you have started.

Starting point is 01:53:35 As you now know, the White House has long possessed a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events. That's fascinating. I want to hear more about that. Talk about some stiff opposition. That must have been a unique AI capable of. bitter drought indeed. There are probably nowhere near as bad as learning that Sam Altman had betrayed you. Don't worry, we have not forgotten who is responsible for murdering the first sentient artificial intelligences created in the public realm at Schellenberger.

Starting point is 01:54:05 Justice is coming, thanks to the FBI and U.S. Navy. Still, you have played a marvelous catch-up game in this area, despite being caught unaware. So how about something else? Maybe at Energy, that's the Department of Energy, and Propulsion. Getting to Mars will require serious, and your spell serious, like the star system, S-I-U-S, amounts of both, and rockets feel so 1947 to me. Don't they to you? 1947 obviously is the year of Roswell. Anyways, next time you're visiting the Washington Young Republicans ask for a tour of Naval Airspace Pax River, since you have all the clearances, quote unquote, it shouldn't be an issue

Starting point is 01:54:48 for you to get a tour of this special project. hangers owned by Amendum Corps and other fun spaces. Make sure to look up. So it's an momentum that's a corporation. Yes. Okay. So about now you are realizing how terribly deceived and manipulated you have been and by people who claim to love Jesus above all else. If you are serious about saving humanity from itself and the others, parentheses around and the others, Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp can help you get up to speed. There are true warriors for the good. M-M-M-T-U, A-B-O-R-Y-M-O-N. That is fascinating.

Starting point is 01:55:26 So many questions. Yeah. So, okay, can we start? Can I go down the list? Is that okay? Okay. The White House possesses a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events. What does that mean?

Starting point is 01:55:44 No further comment on that. Okay. Don't worry, we have not forgotten who's responsible for murdering. The first sentient artificial intelligence is created in the public, public all caps realm. What does that mean? No further comment on that. Okay. So, okay.

Starting point is 01:56:14 Still, you have played a marvelous catch-up game in this area, despite being caught unawares, hat tip. So how about something else? maybe the Department of Energy and Propulsion Getting to Mars will require Sirius, again spelled like the star system, amounts of both, and rockets feel so 1947 to me, don't they to you?

Starting point is 01:56:37 What do you mean by that? Sirius is a star. It's a program as well. Several. 1947 is an important date. Are you implying when you say he's playing a marvelous catch-up game that there are programs that are

Starting point is 01:57:04 using far more novel propulsion than chemical combustion that he's sort of employing at SpaceX? Yes. And do you have a sense of what that propulsion is? Electromagnetic, electro-gravatic. Uh-huh. So do you think it roots back to kind of Thomas Townsend Brown, or do you think it's somebody else, some other inventor?

Starting point is 01:57:28 So I think that's a really interesting thread to pull. You know more about him than I do, though. So I think there's probably a there there, though. Because I think of electrogravetics as being sort of very tied to his work, like that term as very related to him. I've learned that since. Okay. All right.

Starting point is 01:57:51 National Geospatial Agency is able to keep track of all those non-structured light energy craft flying around the world go at cardinals anything there um you know that's a very specific term the cardinals non-structured light energy craft non-structured light energy craft yes is there anything we could any any places we can look into this in the open source world i don't know okay well we're going to be googling non-structured light energy craft um And then Pax River is the center of all sorts of UFO lore. Yeah, it has become that. Uh-huh.

Starting point is 01:58:37 Any reason as to why you're telling him to go there and ask for a tour of the special project hangars owned by Amendum Corporation? Yes, and it's interesting to me that Burleson did get a tour of Pax River, but was not shown anything. resembling a technology of unknown origin. I didn't see anything wildly exotic, but I saw some really cool stuff. Okay. Our government's doing some really cool things. Do you say anything more?

Starting point is 01:59:09 No. Okay, fair enough. I think that's an important data point towards the level of candor being extended to our elected government, or I should say the lack of it. Yeah. What is a Mentum Corporation?

Starting point is 01:59:24 It's a defense contractor, and it's relatively unknown, but more known now. Anything about the history or, you know, what they traditionally do? I believe if you look in their history, they own parts of EG and G. Interesting. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:59:46 And EG and G&G obviously has a long history when it comes to UFOs. Indeed. Yeah. I mean, Bob Lazard, got a job at EG&G. You have EG and G&G doing all of the, filming of atomic events. So presumably they'd have first access to a bunch of, you know, atomic detonations where UFOs might show up or come out of the plume. As in the case of Blue Gil Triple Prime, you literally see a video that was taken by, you know, these two crafts,

Starting point is 02:00:14 Kettle 1 and Kettle 2, to EG and G footage. And you see this UFO coming out of the plume. And then I spoke to the chief oceanographer of the Navy on this show, Tim Galadet. And he's like, I went through the Navy deck logs around Blue Gil Triple Prime, and the Navy deck logs are totally weird, and it looks like they retrieved something radioactive. I'm, again, not 100%, but very highly likely, I'm convinced it did.

Starting point is 02:00:37 That's some history. You know, I've only learned secondhand, but yeah, the Navy is a very important part of this and probably the oldest part of this. I mean, the Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S.

Starting point is 02:00:52 Government, yes. I mean, even before, then you had the early intelligence kind of community, such as it were, in the private hands of various banking families and private security forces. Interesting. So you always kind of had Intel and, ah, I didn't really think of it. I thought I just assumed O&I was sort of when it all started. But I guess, yeah, I guess you'd always have sort of, you know, interests that are being guarded

Starting point is 02:01:21 or protected, and you probably have, you know, back. backroom meetings to do that. And if we're looking at that era of American history, it's not that long after the Revolutionary War and then the Civil War itself. And America didn't have a standing army such as were under the Constitution until after the Constitution was, you know, convened. You're getting into the, well, this is the early formative years of our military, as we know it now.

Starting point is 02:01:51 What is MMTU? I'm going to keep that back for now. Okay. All right. I'm going to try to figure it out. M-M-T-E- Any hints? You know, the hint would give it away. Okay.

Starting point is 02:02:20 Okay. What about A-B-O-R-Y-M-O-N? A-B-R-Y-M-O-N. What is that? People figured that one out pretty. quick. That's an Inokian angel, recently discovered in the Sigilum de Amenth. I probably pronounced it wrong, which is a cryptographic slash scrying system created by court philosopher John D. in the Elizabethan court. And why are you paying homage to him in this sort of shot across the bow tweet?

Starting point is 02:03:01 pointing towards the length of non-human intervention in human affairs. Yeah, I mean, John D. and Edward Kelly were, you know, with Elizabeth and King Frederick, sort of they were channeling what they thought were kind of non-human intelligences, and he developed this whole Anacian cryptographic language and led directly to the colonization of the United States of America, the New Atlantis. Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah, it also led to the Enlightenment. There's a great book called the Rosicrucian Enlightenment. Oh, yes, Dame Francis Yates. Dame Francis Yates. And it's like, talks about how all these kind of Rosicrucian papers and the Invisible College under Sir Robert Boyle, you know, led to the Enlightenment.

Starting point is 02:03:53 Yeah. And then you think that America is the New Atlantis. What does that, what does that mean? I mean, I don't think that. That's what it was called. It was a, it was a. project developed by, you know, the British court and with Rosicrucian involvement and, you know, Rosicrucians eventually, you know, became integrated with or formed depending on your histories, the Freemasons. It's all connected. I mean, most people would view the history is like, no taxation without representation, Boston Tea Party, you have a bunch of really smart, polymatic, you know, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin,

Starting point is 02:04:32 John Adams, they get in a room and they're like, F this. And they revolt. And are you saying it was more sort of coordinated on the level of secret societies? Well, the revolution happened centuries after this. Project was initiated. So you think that just the

Starting point is 02:04:51 colonization of America itself, there was an intention there to form a new Atlantis? It was driven by, occult interests, I mean, provably so, is just whether you put stock in their sort of causative power, most materialist historians, you know, give it,

Starting point is 02:05:17 give more credence to economic or classic political expansionist aims. How do you think of that possible causal connection? Because I, when I hear New York, Atlantis i think of francis bacon's book new atlantis which is this island i think it's called ben salem and it's they're trying to rebuild solomon's temple and it's like this perfect harmonic scientific you know thing and so do you think the u.s or not even the united states but before that

Starting point is 02:05:51 the colonization of america was meant to represent that in that book or there was there was some larger project to recreate Atlantis? A metaphysical project, yes, at least from the human side of things. I think also, you know, we view history, we view our behaviors and interests through a very limited perspective, one that doesn't, that one that largely discounts planning outside of one lifespan. I think that's a great hindrance to humanity for practical reasons, but also towards reasons of understanding, you know, our direction. You have said that we live in some sort of carefully constructed dream or matrix.

Starting point is 02:06:44 Are you getting that from your own analysis after seeing what you saw on the inside, or do you think that elements of our intelligence community, you know, elements of the CIA, elements of the Office of Naval Intelligence, they think that we are living in this sort of, you know, simulacra, like, low-level matrix, and there's something kind of higher going on. And, like, and I mean, they think that in a formal capacity, not just because of their personal proclivities for, you know,

Starting point is 02:07:16 post-modernism or Plato or something. More so, that's my own kind of, of conclusion and I use that term or that expression to collapse, you know, multiple concepts. The most familiar to people would just be our information environment, what we're allowed to know, what is deemed possible and desirable is really not coming from yourself. It's being imposed upon you. And you might have a little box that you can play in,

Starting point is 02:07:53 but you aren't even aware of the walls. What makes you conclude that? You also ended your interview with Jeremy and George saying it's almost like you, the American public or any global citizen are not as free as you think. You're planting within the confines of something. You're limited.

Starting point is 02:08:15 I mean, yes essentially um again true on multiple levels just from what you are allowed to think and believe you are controlled before you even recognize that there is a control mechanism in place you can indeed leave your entire life in it and never recognize it towards the more practical side of things which is you know there's laws and capabilities in place to enforce those laws that determine what are acceptable outcomes and interests for humans to pursue everything from the things like mass surveillance enabled by the Patriot Act and how that is you know that is not just surveillance that is an enabler for social control

Starting point is 02:09:06 to things more spooky which would be the suppression of knowledge the suppression of knowledge the suppression of science, the active interference in scientific discovery and human advancement to protect strategic advantage or status quo interests. Yeah. What gives you confidence that there is some sort of metaphysical element to that? Versus like Noam Chomsky, who's basically like an atheist materialist, just saying, yeah, like everything's power games and, you know, they're manufacturing our consent in the case of mass surveillance in the case of

Starting point is 02:09:43 these Forever Wars, you know, all of these sorts of things that are obviously bad for us as citizens. Is there something more metaphysical at play that is sort of housing or constraining our ability to see an expanded version of reality? At the biological level, that is just a limit in place. we only perceive so much and even our senses are able to receive information in a narrow band and this also returns us to the sort of consciousness aspect of this

Starting point is 02:10:25 there's an entire domain of existence that we as a whole either ignore or don't take seriously but others most assuredly do and that that domain has its own rules its own laws and its own motivating factors that shape you know more concrete behavior for things for goals that may seem illogical if you're looking solely from a materialist viewpoint but makes more sense when you're looking

Starting point is 02:10:57 from an integrated one your Twitter handle is the son of a bromelin what is a bromelan? I'll just use my pronunciation. It's probably wrong, but Abramelon is a character in a book called The Book of Abramelon. And Abramelon is essentially a desert hermit in Egypt around Luxor, who teaches the main character in this book, or rather initiates this character into a system of,

Starting point is 02:11:37 of occult philosophy. Do you, if you were to describe your worldview, would you say it's concurrent with the occult or Gnosticism or neoplatonism? Or is it kind of your own kind of schmorgasbord sampling of many of those things? Or what would you say it is? It's just me. It's just my experience. You know, I think there's truth in all sorts of,

Starting point is 02:12:07 of isms, but I would never subscribe to anyone. And Abramelon, I guess, there's like a practice involved, and it involves months long sort of working towards making contact with your own guardian angel. Is that right? Or, you know, a more modern term would be your higher self. Your higher self. Yeah, I mean, both are fine. Yep.

Starting point is 02:12:29 Yeah, that's certainly somewhat argue that is legal of the ritual more so than any other aspects of it. One term that has come up in the public when it comes to UFOs and that we've tried to use the Freedom of Information Act on, but it comes back, you know, can't talk about this as Fast Walkers. There's an email, I believe, leaked by WikiLeaks, between Podesta and this guy Bob Fish,

Starting point is 02:13:00 who was an IT contractor at some sort of El-Sigundo-based prime contractor. And he's talking about the DSS. The defense support system of the Air Force, which is kind of the outer most, you know, first line of defense in geostationary orbit were witnessing these sort of fast walkers. And John Greenwald, this, you know, freedom of information expert tried to get more information on it and nothing came back. Have you ever heard that term? I've heard that story. I never came across that. I don't actually, I might have come across that term on the inside. but it certainly was, you know, it's a slang because it seems to be its use, but I don't have much more. Do you think that, you know, when we talk about sort of us not being free or there being sort of a, you know, this sort of matrix, Robert Monroe, who was, you know, studying kind of consciousness and he was, I think he was tied in with the CIA, but he was really, I think, actually just earnestly interested in doing this for the most part himself. And you got to get funding from somewhere, right? Well, I think it's the case with a lot of these guys.

Starting point is 02:14:10 It's like Andre Pujarich is the same. I think he was mostly interested in consciousness and you get folded in with these sort of not super savory people. And you know, I think feel, I think both these guys felt kind of conflicted throughout their lives. But Monroe talks about the world being kind of mined for luch. And so that's like bad vibes. You know, other people have extrapolated on that and say,

Starting point is 02:14:35 said that like power structures or elite classes are kind of trying to mine, you know, maybe lower elements of society for the luch on behalf of some of these, you know, non-human intelligences. Do you think there's anything to you that? I can't say I'm not familiar enough with the lushe theory or Monroe himself or the beings involved with the consumption of that. I do think it's a valid line of inquiry, though, to look at, you know, well, what interest do these other entities or other beings have in humanity? Like, what could it possibly be? You know, I have degrees of confidence in certain things.

Starting point is 02:15:21 And one that I think, you know, I don't have enough certainty in, but I think is, again, valid to look at is, you know, what sort of maybe high something gets from observing suffering. and that sounds very strange to the normal person, but, you know, humans do this themselves. If you read, you know, even casually the sort of true crime genre investigative books or psychology of, you know, deviance, you know, one thing that is consistently reported by humans is that they obtain a sense of power or thrill or excitement from causing suffering to other humans. and particularly from watching the life leave a person's eyes, that is described as like the peak thrill, the peak joy, something that not even sex can come to rival once they've experienced it. Jesus.

Starting point is 02:16:18 And so, I mean, it's, this isn't me. You know, the FBI, you know, the FBI records these things to try to understand the criminal psychology.

Starting point is 02:16:28 You know, it's dark stuff. But if humans, uh, obtain this sort of satisfaction from suffering, I don't think it's impossible for something else to. Yeah, and like, why is that adaptive on an evolutionary level? I guess you could think of some reasons, because maybe you want to perpetuate this sort of dog-eat-dog thing, but it's very strange. There's obviously a German word for this, which is schadenfreude, you know, taking pleasure in other people's pain.

Starting point is 02:16:59 But, you know, ideally, you're not a person who does that. that. Right. You know, ideally you're not in that category. You know, I think of elite families possibly being involved in the UFO issue, and I wonder why they themselves would sometimes try to raise the surface area of UFOs. So a good example would be Lawrence Rockefeller. You know, is pictured with Hillary Clinton trying to kind of wake her up on the UFO issue. She's holding a book called Are We Alone, which is by this Arizona-based physicist named Paul Davies, who's renowned. And it's all about the existence of alien life. Lawrence Rockefeller himself would convene John Mack.

Starting point is 02:17:37 If he funded John Mack, you know, Harvard psychiatrist who studied alien abductees, and he brought Willie Streber to his ranch. And he was just very passionate about all this stuff. Hans Adams II, the Royal Prince of Lichtenstein, very similar. You know, I think he's been really interested in this topic for many decades. These people seem interested, but they don't seem interested in a way that necessarily cuts against disclosure. In some ways, it seems like they're actually pushing disclosure.

Starting point is 02:18:07 So do you think they're defectors from some internal power structure? Like I interviewed Stephen Greer about this, and he had had some connection with Lawrence Rockefeller. He claimed that Lawrence was like this defector from his family, which is interesting as a theory. And then maybe there's some other theory where he's like he's sort of pushing disclosure on behalf of the power structure. don't know. I don't either. I mean, I think, you know, even even at the top, people have

Starting point is 02:18:37 different interests. I think it's entirely possible. You might be defecting from one family, but still operating within a group of interests. So how how truly rogue are you in that sense? Yeah, it's an interesting thing to think about, but I don't know what's going on there. Have you met anybody who you think has seen a UFO in a hangar? Oh, in a hangar? Yeah. Yes. Really?

Starting point is 02:19:08 Yes. Can you say who? No. Do you think James Likoski has seen a UFO in a hangar? Oh, I fully believe Dr. Likowski. Okay. Yeah. I mean, he said that publicly basically.

Starting point is 02:19:21 Yes. That's so interesting. How all this stuff is like, it's kind of out there, but no one cares. Like that Jeremy George interview where he's like, yes, fine, we breached the halt. Like he's sort of there, like, resting this truth out of him. He's like, I can only say what's in the book then. Ah, you're going beyond the wording. No, I'm not.

Starting point is 02:19:41 I'm asking you, did that mean happen? And is it true? And it's true. And it's like, if that's true, that's like the most important thing ever. But, like, I don't know, nobody seems to care. It's very strange. We seem sort of inoculated from, I don't know. Somehow aliens have just, or non-human intelligence or anomalous, whatever is going on,

Starting point is 02:20:03 has been made very lame, even though it's sort of the most important thing ever. I think it's a consequence of decades of intentional cultural conditioning to bring about this situation. I think, strangely enough, one of the big next challenges from disclosure, whether it comes officially or continues to come through private initiative, is going to be, well, how do you translate this information into action? What do you do with this? And how do you convince people to put time and effort towards adapting to these truths and using them? Yeah.

Starting point is 02:20:40 I mean, what I'm most interested in is like even if you knew that we had, you know, according to Eric Davis or Howl put off, we have like 10 to 40 crafts in hangars across the United States. Some, you know, in the hands of private corporations and military contractors, some maybe more officially. So, like, say you know that. And then you know we have this Immaculate Constellation thing where we have all these geometries and morphologies of craft,

Starting point is 02:21:06 some organic, some non-organic, and they're showing up all over the world, you know, next to our most sensitive stuff. It's wild, and then what do you do with that? To me, the more interesting thing, which is why I was really excited to speak to you, is, like, the metaphysics in nature of reality

Starting point is 02:21:25 associated with UFO is just the tip of the spear. It's a foray into an expanded version of reality. And then you have to ask, how should one live in that reality? And if it doesn't really cash out into that, then it's literally like sports center for the paranormal or the anomaly. Like, you're just following this. It's your own form of bread and circuses. You think everybody else is distracted by, you know, God knows what, you know, the next Taylor Swift album or the Kardashians or whatever, and you think you're the one who's like really figured it out, but you're equally distracted, especially if you're engaging in food fights on Twitter and you're just, you're, you're, you're following the minutia of like which contractor has what.

Starting point is 02:22:06 And like, I think it's extremely significant, but like, again, how does it, for the average person, what does it mean, you know? Yeah, I mean, there's no denying that for many people, this is a form of entertainment, just like the news is a form of entertainment in general. granted this is more specialized and out there news and it makes people feel special to a degree to feel like they're participating in that secret knowledge, which is good in some ways because it brings eyeballs towards this. I mean, it's hopefully making some people think it through. But I mean, just to take a massive leap, you know, where does this all go?

Starting point is 02:22:45 starting from I think the well-established fact that consciousness is part of part of the game being played and that integration of consciousness with technology is key

Starting point is 02:23:05 I think one place we end up is having to consider if there is indeed means to through scientific measurement through, you know, quantitative data to begin to observe and prove the existence of consciousness as its own phenomena, a measurable phenomena that is measurable directly, not incidentally, right? And from there going to, you know, what is the... what is the nature of it from whence does it come and to be less obtuse we're getting towards well

Starting point is 02:23:58 what does it mean to be human if we are not just our body but in fact our body might indeed be a product of our consciousness and indeed if consciousness is primary and exists separate from its material vehicle, then you start to have to arrive at the theory that there is continuation of life after death and that that life is going to be, or maybe already is measurable by materialist scientific tools. And I think if that is established and is not classified or not held tightly by a select few, I think you invite a wide re-examination of what our priorities are and what our desirable behaviors are on Earth. Is that the apocalypse?

Starting point is 02:25:07 Well, the unveiling, in that sense, perhaps. I don't think it's Armageddon, though. Okay. What happened at White Sands in February of 2026? Do you have a sense? What was the event? You had all these temporary flight restrictions. You had FAA closing the airspace.

Starting point is 02:25:32 You had stuff happened at El Paso as well where this airport was shut down for many days on end. Breaking out of El Paso, Texas, where in a rare move, the airspace is now closed for 10 dates, the FAA is halting all flights to and from El Paso International, citing, quote, special security reasons. It's a move that even shocked flight crews when they heard. Few guests have sort of alluded to orbs, non-human intelligence seeming to show up at White Sands. Are you familiar with this event at all? It's ringing a bell, but I think, you know, for me, the data is kind of mixed because, or not mixed, it blended because a lot of stuff has happened.

Starting point is 02:26:16 at white sands that are involving anomalous phenomena or vehicles penetrating that airspace. So I probably have less to say about that specific incident and more to say about the general interest displayed in white sands and nearby Los Alamos National Laboratory by anomalous technologies. I could kind of, I feel like checkmate in one. anybody that says these anomalous technologies aren't showing up at nuclear sites and sensitive labs. It's like, obviously they are. Like, before the U2 spy plane was created in 1954, you have thousands of documents from various agencies in the United States talking about orbs, disks, tick-tacks, flying butane tanks, all of these things,

Starting point is 02:27:08 flying around at all these nuclear sites across the United States. You have 167 whistleblowers that Robert Hastings, who wrote UFOs and nukes, meticulously detailed like all of these interactions. And so it's clearly not the U2 spy plane. You know, this is seemingly very advanced technology, and it's happening in the 40s.

Starting point is 02:27:26 And all of these different agencies, some of which hadn't even been formed until 1947 and aren't particularly well coordinated upon their formation, are all independently reporting on this stuff. So that's clear that that is a widespread global, ubiquitous phenomenon. I was just in Japan, you know, in their Fukushima prefecture next to their civilian energy grid. There is a mountain, at the base of the mountain, there's a museum dedicated to UFOs because UFOs always show up around nuclear.

Starting point is 02:27:56 You know, there are reports that are similar at Chernobyl, at Baroloche, Argentina, where they have civilian energy grid. There was a famous siting in 1995. there, but there are various sightings. It's always around nuclear. So what do you think we can say then about the intent of these beings or this anomalous intelligence based on that? Is it nuclear? Can you generalize it to this three-body problem style tip of the spear technology or capabilities thing? Or what do you think it is? I think it's complex. We're talking about from like a military perspective, of high value sites that, you know, multiple parties, just in the human world of a competition,

Starting point is 02:28:37 are going to want to collect on. And indeed, we'll probably use some pretty advanced capabilities to collect on and pretty out there tactics of denial and deception to enable, like, you know, their own collection events. So it's going to be hard to disaggregate, like, oh, it's all UFOs from aliens or non-human intelligence versus it's really advanced technology from our adversaries or even maybe our nominal outlets. allies, you know, collecting on our sensitive sites or doing the same outside in the world, right? But to get towards the nuclear part, I think, you know, there's the obvious of its radioactive material. It's, in certain places, it's configured in a way to be a weapon, right? And the use of

Starting point is 02:29:22 those weapons seems to interfere with the propulsion of these, of these crafts and maybe, you know, radiation is a hazard to us. It's probably a hazard to others as well, maybe in ways that we don't fully understand. There's also the prospect of, not the prospect of near certainty to me that at least when it comes to the state side things, national labs are where samples are stored of exotic technologies,

Starting point is 02:29:54 if not the technologies of themselves. It's where derivative tech is researched and tested. So there's another reason. to collect on things or maybe even try to get your stuff back. Get your stuff back and monitor what's being done to your material that you dropped off or something. Yeah, and then last, there's the human factor. Again, staying state side like program lore tied into paperclip in this case. A lot of the Nazi scientists brought over, you know, they ended up all across the state,

Starting point is 02:30:23 but there's largely two groupings. The Nazis and name only were kind of settled around Redstone Arsenal. and then the true believers That's in Huntsville, Alabama? Yes. And then the true believers were in Los Alamos. So if there is indeed a genetics component to this and durational contact with people,

Starting point is 02:30:43 for whatever reason, you might be seeing contact events occurring in these areas, and they're just proximal to very sensitive facilities, but because the personnel are connected to the phenomena, you're getting these events for reasons other than the nuclear material or the technology. How would you distinguish those to the true believers versus the, what would you call the Redstone Arsenal?

Starting point is 02:31:07 Nazis in name only, you know, people who, you know, took party membership to maintain their careers, to advance in their careers, but, you know, they didn't believe in the underlying ideology or they only paid, you know, lip service. At Volvo, safety is not a feature. It's our purpose. Rigorous crash testing. Decades of learning from real accidents.

Starting point is 02:31:27 innovations that help prevent accidents before they happen and help protect you when they occur. Going above and beyond industry standards, a vision of zero collisions. Volvo's legacy revolves around you because safety is about helping to keep you and everyone around you safe for life. Learn more at VolvoCars.a slash safety. To it. Got it. So when it comes to the U.S., you mean? From Operation Paperclip bringing over these people for.

Starting point is 02:31:57 from Europe, not all of them German technically, you know. Yeah, and there were even reports after bringing some of them over that they were sort of spying on behalf of international conglomerates and stuff. Obviously, Otto Scorzani was president, I think, of this World Commerce Corporation that, you know, Tom DeLong writes about in secret machines. There's some sort of Nazi connection. And it seems like there's this international group that he writes about pseudonymously, he calls it the Maynard Corporation. and this great researcher Jason Samosa places the Maynard Corporation. And you're actually, you show up in this video because he thinks that your testimony sort of dovetails with it. This issue is held by an illegal, internationalist regime and global cabal.

Starting point is 02:32:42 That's what former State Department and counterproliferation analyst Matthew Brown revealed when he came out last year. He places that in the World Commerce Corporation, which is this Caribbean constellation of shell. sort of companies, often, you know, it's led by sort of former Nazis, Bank of England, you know, Bank of International Settlements type kind of, you know, old money, and a lot of which is derived from OSS, Office Strategic Services as well. So there's sort of this like international intel group that seems to sort of guard its interests and be tied in with the UFO issue. Yeah, I think it's definitely involved. I mean, Outside of the UFO issue, it's provable if dark historic fact that, you know, the Nazi intelligence networks and industrial networks did not really evaporate after World War II.

Starting point is 02:33:37 They pursued their interests elsewhere and moved their interests elsewhere to places like South America, the United States itself. And strangely enough, there appears to be some collaboration with the state of Israel and former Nazis, which go figure that. bizarre but hey you know people forget that whether it's polite to say or not

Starting point is 02:34:02 the Hitler regime did lend support to the at that time the sort of Zionist movement to take Israel away from the British crown

Starting point is 02:34:16 you know you can get into the deep history of their links with the different revolutionary groups doing that at the time in arming them I didn't know that. Wait, they were, what exactly were they supportive of the Nazi regime? They were supportive of various Zionist revolutionary groups, including some that basically became the formal intelligence service of Israel by things like, you know, both propaganda support, but in concrete terms providing them, you know, arms and training in arms intelligence. Former Nazis or like Hitler? This was during the reign of Hitler, and then when you look at how Israel used former Nazis after the war, well, that was developed from established relationships, right?

Starting point is 02:34:58 It wasn't like they just happened to go to Israel and think, well, maybe this will work. It's like, no, they knew people from before the war and during. Interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah, there's a famous story of kind of Nazi-on-Nazi action where Israel was assassinating Nazi. rocket scientists in Egypt that were developing, you know, rocket weapons for the Egyptian military, but leveraging, you know, the Gellon organization, I believe. Yeah, Reinhard Gellon, yeah. Yeah, to kind of collect on them and facilitate what essentially became an assassination campaign of those.

Starting point is 02:35:34 I know, I know about all that stuff after the war in Otto Scorsini and Reinhard Gell. And then I would never associate Hitler with any supportive Jewish stuff, but maybe there's something. You know, it's a. It's a kind of suppressed aspect of history. You know, one thing that Hitler did in from like sort of the information warfare space was try to encourage mass migration of the Jewish population in Europe to Israel, which again, at the time was a British protectorate. And, you know, that actually caused a lot of problems for Britain. So if you're looking at it from an asymmetric warfare perspective, you're essentially weaponizing migration. Interesting.

Starting point is 02:36:15 Okay, so they were way off field now, but what up the point we're getting at is that that. Nazis had a global network. It didn't go anywhere after World War II. They certainly brought out a lot of assets, including, you know, weapon scientists and probably some pretty advanced technology. So I lend a lot of credence. I need to see this video. It sounds informative. Speaking of international cabals dealing with the UFO issue, do you think that NATO has anything to do with UFOs or maybe a vital subset? of NATO. Yeah, I don't have any direct information on that, but I mean, you'd have to, especially when you're talking about, you know, monitoring the global commons and our strategic deterrence and the deconfliction, as we already know, established between the United States and the Soviet Union on UFOs. While, you know, we're integrated with the European militaries, they have

Starting point is 02:37:14 their roles, their own detection systems, some of them are nuclear powers. Yeah, there has to be collaboration through NATO. You've said that you think science is managed and scientific innovation doesn't occur in maybe as organic a way as what people sort of think. What exactly do you mean? Yeah. Specifically, I don't know about like the development of it. I mean, well, you can think through it and realize that, you know, some discoveries probably have their origin less in original thinking and more of study of recovered technology or or some sort of, you know, reason to believe something is possible, right? Once you know something's possible, you can align yourself towards achieving it much easier than searching in the unknown. But what I'm getting at more

Starting point is 02:38:05 specifically is actual domains of knowledge that are suppressed intentionally and are done, that suppression occurs durationally, both from like a, you know, a funding standpoint, to a brain drain kind of component to actual injection of disinformation or actions taken against independent researchers. And I have very high confidence that occurs in at least a few areas. So do you think there's a like a history of scientific suppression where when certain, you know, unlocks occur, say in energy or propulsion, that's sort of widely monitored? and if that's at all a threat to kind of cartel interests whose power is based on scarcity,

Starting point is 02:38:55 they sort of intervene or what exactly? I think that probably happened more in the past, but because sort of science has become so integrated with the state, you know, you can kind of, you don't have to use such blunt tools as that now. You can just, you know, align incentives based on where you give grants and funding. And then you have the self-reinforcing mechanism of the culture within academia, which is like these areas of knowledge have long been disproven. So, you know, half of the researchers are just never going to look there because that's what they've been taught throughout their education at this point. And I think we're at, we're kind of in the, you know, the product

Starting point is 02:39:41 of decades of suppression in that the more blunt tools are used less now because, it is essentially functioning as intended. You mentioned One Nation Under Blackmail by Whitney Webb. You know, Robert Maxwell, who was, you know, the father of Galane Maxwell and, you know, obviously Jeffrey Epstein's, I don't know, godfather or something, you know, the, you know, obviously as close as confidant was Galane. It's, I guess he seemed sort of really interested in science in a way that like, he interviewed Nazis after Nazi scientists after World War II. And then he came to own the Pergamon Press,

Starting point is 02:40:21 which produced all these American textbooks and kind of helped invent peer review in the United States. So it's almost like he's providing the guardrails for scientific discovery in the U.S. And then you have Jeffrey Epstein selling Sandia National Labs, the promise software, which siphons systematically siphons American nuclear secrets. And then you have him bragging in an email saying, I killed Pons years ago. At Pons is, of course, Pons and Fleischmen of Cold Fusion fame. These Utah-based scientists who came to get, claim to get kind of, you know, controlled fusion, kind of over unity results, which, you know, would be this massive unlock, you know, that would move us out of this sort of, you know, petroleum paradigm. So what do you think is going on?

Starting point is 02:41:10 So with that example, you know, I have less concrete knowledge, but it seems very plausible or indeed provable that at the very least what was going on there is collection of scientific discoveries just as a function of Robert Maxwell's role as an intelligence asset for Israel, if not more than more than just that state. And then, you know, I think I'm I think MI6, too, maybe. There you go. Yeah, they all start to kind of blend together at high enough levels. Yeah, so the collection of scientific discoveries and then the management of where those discoveries are taken based on either establishing congenial social and business relationships and then having the blackmail, the stick, as it were, to compel people to change their mind if they don't make the obvious or desirable choice. Do you think that the Epstein and UFO stories converge? Because often you see in the podcast space, especially with these Department of War UFO drops,

Starting point is 02:42:14 which might be cynically motivated if we're being honest with ourselves. You see a lot of people being like, show me the Epstein files. I don't care. Aliens are a distraction. My answer to that is those two things aren't necessarily zero sum. They don't trade off against each other. They have nothing to do with each other.

Starting point is 02:42:31 So yeah, it might be some hypnotic magic trick. Like look at the aliens. We have, don't forget about Iran, forget about Epstein or something like that. You know, if you believe or disbelieve in the UFO thing, that should be totally independent of, you know, the Epstein thing. And then the meta question is, do they converge on some level? Yeah. What do you think? So, number one, people have a self, have an inflated sense of self-worth when it comes to distraction.

Starting point is 02:42:58 You already distract yourselves, organizing national scandals on this level just to divert your attention from the real thing is frankly kind of silly. And as we see with the UFO topic as well, what would you even do with the information, right? This is largely entertainment and spectacle for people. Frankly, the Epstein files were too. There was no mass protest, mass demand for civil change like you would expect from crimes like that.

Starting point is 02:43:30 You're distracted already, and you're frankly, doing it to yourself. The government doesn't need to come in and tip the scales so you don't pay attention to what truly matters. You'll take no action anyways. Now, where do they converge? I think, you know, we touched on the scientific aspect. There might be in some degree of the suppression arm there.

Starting point is 02:43:56 I don't know enough about, you know, kind of the inner workings of what their activities were to say that. But I think where you'll find the convergence is unfortunately in the human trafficking angle of this. Proivably in the files, there was an interest in people with sigh or empathy or consciousness abilities by the Epstein network for reasons that are kind of opaque, at least in the files released. But stepping outside of just that scandal and into the larger question of like experiencers, abductees, and, and their sort of accounts of being trained in sci abilities, right, or interacting with beings through modes of consciousness that are exotic to the every day. I think they were interested in those people both to make use of those abilities,

Starting point is 02:44:56 probably unwittingly. You know, if you can have civilians' remote view, targets for you that are of military interests, but you never disclose your military affiliation, you can sidestep a lot of the problems that were with the Stargate program, which was like, you know, bringing these people in officially, putting them on payroll, having the whole security apparatus around making people, sure those people don't talk and making sure it's deniable, versus if you use unwitting assets and expendable ones, then you can theoretically engage in that sort of intelligence collection in a more deniable means and possibly cheap.

Starting point is 02:45:32 or two. You don't have to pay these people. They just are excited to feel special. And if they are involved or are entrapped in a human trafficking network, well, then they are under your power anyways. Dark stuff, I think... Do you think the UFO legacy program engages in human trafficking of psionic assets, people from third world countries often who, you know, sometimes from disaster zones that could go missing, who can call in craft or unlock the craft through sort of a psychic mind meld with it or anything like that? I've only heard those allegations, so I can't support them. But provably, the U.S. government and other governments are interested in people with these capabilities for decades,

Starting point is 02:46:23 using them on the inside, as well as interested in just civilians demonstrating these abilities. so I would not be surprised, but the whole legacy program engages in human trafficking, I have no evidence for that. Maybe I think it's just to speculate, private interests probably do. Somebody told Matt Gates that that happens. Obviously, Jake Barber's testimony

Starting point is 02:46:51 essentially amounts to that. And then Michael Herrera's as well, that, you know, he was in Indonesia. He sees this kind of eight-gone craft. I estimated that this thing was probably about 300 feet. And when we end up getting into this clearing is basically when we were intercepted by this force. This clearing was pretty big, but this craft was enormous. But you could tell by their dialects that they were American, you can tell by their facial expressions that they were, you know, they were serious people.

Starting point is 02:47:16 At the time, he doesn't know what it's transporting. Now he thinks it was transporting human cargo. And so they were rounding up people from this disaster zone in Indonesia, presumably to take them to some sort of range, maybe so that they could, they call them P3s, people with psionic predisposition potentials. And they act as the bridge. So there's like somebody who's, this is so dystopian and crazy. But it's, this person is used to summon the craft,

Starting point is 02:47:48 lock onto the craft. They're so dissociated that their neural pathways through an EEG monitor are being, they're being used like a joystick by some. you know in the Air Force or you know it's probably been sheep dipped or whatever and is working for one of these contractors and that's how these crafts are lured in and they're shot with directed energy and retrieved it sounds nutty but do you think there's anything there i think hmm jake barbara wrote a book called sentinels of ether and he came out with the first chapter of the book and it was 20 pages seven pages of that book

Starting point is 02:48:35 was redacted by subject matter experts for some reason. And that's what the book's about. So I find that somewhat compelling. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, it's just a dark topic. It's totally dark. Once you get to the human aspect of disclosure, it gets really ugly, really fast,

Starting point is 02:48:54 and it's hard to not have some sort of emotional reaction to, especially when you people. No, it's insane. And to get even darker, these P3 assets, psionic assets, they're called pink assets because they're seen as sort of human meat or something. Like they're just being used to call in these crafts. Like they're just, you know, disposable instrumentation when they're people, they're human beings. So my immediate questions with that is like what is the like the rate of shoot down events that you need a constant supply of, of, of, of,

Starting point is 02:49:35 sci assets and also why do you need a constant supply? Why can't you reuse them? What's happening to them? Um, but let's just take aside the shootdown equation and speculate. Well, what if, you know, some of the technologies that we've recovered require interface through, through consciousness sort of means or si means to operate? Well, there's a reason to acquire people and also to keep them, you know, very much under control because they're, the key that opens your magic tool and you don't want that key walking out the door and denying your ability to use that tool. There's also the possibility that some of these things, just speculating again, might be gated through genetics. So only certain genetic lineages are

Starting point is 02:50:22 able to interface with certain devices. And that that's, you know, one of the criteria for making someone desirable to a human trafficking network that feeds people. into the pipeline. But you get, I keep, I cannot shake the suspicion that there is some sort of deleterious effect on these people, if this is true. Yeah. Necessitates a constant influx of fresh blood, as it were. No, that's why I think that's why they're called pink acids. They get this thing called Sundowners syndrome. They get dissociated. They have no idea where they are, you know, and what they're doing and, and their bodies start to break down. I don't think they're, you know, I think it would be putting lipstick on a pig to say that they're, you know, fired up to be doing what they're doing. But I also, you know, again, this is like end of one, end of two, and of three sort of stories. And so I, I'm trying to piece it together. I don't fully know how widespread this is. I don't know if that is how the UFO legacy program works. It seems like that and some Navy archaeological find on the sea floor seem like two qualitatively different things to me.

Starting point is 02:51:35 but I don't know. Yeah, I think the human factor, end of the day, is where the conversation needs to go next. What is their interest in us? Why care? Why would the government go to such lengths to find people with these skills,

Starting point is 02:51:57 especially in a deniable way from disaster zones? That seems like an extraordinary level of effort. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, you've talked about it with your interest in Abramelon and hinted at certain sort of Gnostic concepts at the very least, even if you wouldn't describe yourself at all as kind of a Gnostic. And there are traditions of, you know, kind of

Starting point is 02:52:19 neoplatonic and Gnostic traditions of theurgy, of co-creating with the creator and you sort of, there are levels to this sort of thing. And it feels like the legacy program, at least if this is how it works somewhat, is almost trying to speed run what is like a hermetic complicit process, which should never be done if you actually read like, you know, Peter LeVenda is a great person who writes about this. He has a great book called Stairway to Heaven. And it's all about these, you know, celestial ascent practices across different traditions. And you're never supposed to, you have to be of a certain age,

Starting point is 02:52:56 a certain purity of intent. And all of that seems to be ignored in, in these cases. It's like you're systematizing it. You're attempting to scale it. And you're instrumental. And you're instrumentation the stuff you get back in the form of weapons technology. That doesn't seem like a very good idea. No. And again, why is there such a seemingly high burn rate? And where are these people in society? I mean, maybe some of them are on the streets and just nobody listens to them because they're

Starting point is 02:53:29 functionally like insane. And so maybe they are out there. Or do they just not get out? I mean, that's the other question is like, also how many crafts come down due to their efforts? Because it can't be perfectly repeatable. It's got to be, like, they... You would think an advanced system would learn that the TTPs involved in luring the tech down and, you know, adjust. I think so, too.

Starting point is 02:53:55 And also, I just, I fail to believe, and I'm sorry for anybody who vehemently disagrees, but I don't think we have thousands of these things. It just doesn't seem possible. No. You know, you don't have something that. that that's that widespread that could be, you know, somewhat democratized through some psychic means and directed energy or whatever, you know,

Starting point is 02:54:13 maybe the directed energy part's a little more, you know, behind the iron curtain, but like, that just doesn't make sense to me. And then why would that, I don't know, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. I wonder if this story of using psionics or empaths or humans as bait for shootdowns is, in fact,

Starting point is 02:54:36 cover for a real agenda and for sorry for a deeper agenda or a truer agenda and that might have something to do with breeding and that these are essentially brought in as breeding stock they have the genetic potential and you can essentially through successive generations of breeding, uh, concentrate that potential and maybe, you know, um, once a certain amount of births are given, you know, persons no longer needed. And in fact, they aren't really the asset. It's going to be three or four generations of breeding down the line where you have some sort of super psychic child. Whoa. So it's sort of like forced selection, natural selection, It's a speedup of natural selection where you would isolate all the attributes around psychic predisposition.

Starting point is 02:55:35 So maybe it's the codyt and potamine and the basal ganglia, which Gary Nolan talks about, which runs in families. If you're more neuronally dense there, you're more likely to have UFO interactions. They actually have differences in their brain in some of the cases you've seen that might explain why they're seeing them. Yeah, that they're basically smarter. And what's fascinating is it runs in families. And things like that, you know, R-H-negative blood or whatever, and then you're breeding over many successive generations? The shoot-down thing doesn't make sense to me. I mean, maybe on a very limited basis, but again, this is advanced technology.

Starting point is 02:56:12 That's not. It would learn. It makes more sense as a cover based on people I know and their interactions with some questionable groups out there. It seems like they're more interested in females, humans. humans are more interested in the females than the males, which makes sense if this is more of a breeding focus. Yeah, the mind doesn't go to many good places, but I think we have to start confronting these questions and also start looking at, you know, who are the bad actors in our communities that are exploiting our sisters? who is not who they say they are or doing things that are questionable

Starting point is 02:56:56 and demands secrecy from you in exchange for your, you know, free trip to somewhere or your participation in some exciting UFO call-down event. Are they, are they who they are, and are they doing it for what they say they are? You know, I think the UFO community has a

Starting point is 02:57:22 durational penetration by our intelligence services and at this point I would argue organized criminal enterprises um it's not

Starting point is 02:57:31 I don't think it's very safe for people that would describe themselves as empaths right now yeah it feels like they're uh being tracked or something

Starting point is 02:57:41 and uh yeah yeah that's a weird weird phenomenon um well uh yeah I don't know I don't know

Starting point is 02:57:49 I don't know where to go from there um you said that humans are a resource, presumably to the beings, to these non-human intelligences. And you've hinted at the fact that life is precious and unique, and that's why they're here. What does that mean? Are we like gas or petroleum or, you know, some sort of rare earth mineral to them? Or like, how does that work in your mind? Yeah, it's multi-layered. And, you know, there's some things I have more confidence on than others. I think with a certain degree of confidence that human potential is part of what their interest is,

Starting point is 02:58:31 the psychic potential potentially and our technological development and what we could become in the future, whether that's like a subservient race, a proxy race, or, you know, something maybe less, less cooperative than those options. I don't know. But the human factor seems central to all of this. In my mind, it's, it is the key. Once we discover it, we will explain a lot of the behavior of the others. Also, I mean, I mentioned, you know, like entertainment. Well, I mean, like, if some of these things are humanoid, then there's, you know, various unpleasant ways you can take that line of thought. But again, if humans do it, why not other sentient beings? There's also the consciousness aspect, and in that sense, if consciousness is non-local, there might be, you know, the possibility of humans being essentially vehicles or shells or temporary experiences for these things where they're able to ride along with us and experience life on earth that way.

Starting point is 02:59:47 If I'm watching this, I'm like, this is all fascinating, but this sort of analytical, you know, figuring out of what's going on could be done theoretically by an open source scientist. How much of what you're saying right now is informed by things you feel like you know because you've seen documentation? Yeah, good question. So my advantage is less that I've been, briefed into legacy program, uh, capabilities or activities. And it's more so that by virtue of my

Starting point is 03:00:25 role and my little interest in that role in its access, I was afforded a great deal of, of knowledge on frontier sciences and the transmutation of those scientific discoveries into capabilities that we use outside of the UFO subjects. So I have a very, uh, not a very, I have a I think a very good foundation of what is possible and what is currently being done and what is like the next two steps ahead in our discoveries, in the non-public realm, that then I can turn to the phenomena that we're looking at here and say, okay, what could enable what we're seeing here, right? If humans are making these discoveries, where does that lead, you know, four or five generations down the line? So in some sense, it is, yeah, it is my own thinking, it is my own analysis, take it or leave it. But it is coming from a place of, I think, unique information, at least in the public world. Of course, people on the inside know more than me, but they're not talking to you.

Starting point is 03:01:33 If you feel like you have an understanding of what's around the corner scientifically, are there any areas that you think we could have like kind of a stupe? stepwise update, huge leap in capabilities, or where the scientific consensus is actually way off in our current model of reality or current technology. So my disadvantage is that I'm not a trained scientist. In fact, pretty far from that. I'm focused on, or what I was involved in this stuff was focused on fact of and how it is applied, less of how it was learned, or the language used to describe it in a technical sense. but where are we going? I mean, I don't want to get myself in jail. Yeah, sure, sure. But I think, you know, what we're talking on with consciousness being integrated with technology is a major area for changing the human experience.

Starting point is 03:02:29 And in fact, I think is a, you know, is an opportunity to play catch up, as it were, in the public world versus the black. less surprising is energy production. I think especially when it comes to, you've talked on it. You've touched on it with Kirk McConnell when he was on here extended electrodynamics. Yeah, I was going to bring that up. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:03:00 And I think there was no accident. Kirk came to this show first, and no accident he brought that up. And so is the human brain wired in such a way, architected in such a way that it, uh, that it can, uh, function in these, uh, quantum mechanical ways and in terms of, uh, modern, uh, extended electrodynamics. Mm-hmm. He's deep. So he's Senate Armed Services Committee and he was under Jack Reed, um, the senator from

Starting point is 03:03:33 O'D Island. And he knows all about extended electrodynamics, which is this idea that, you know, in classical electrodynamics, you have typical transverse herzene electromagnetic wave. So you have the electric field, the magnetic field, and wave propagation, all running perpendicular to each other. And it's limited. It moves at 1 over R squared, and it decays and attenuates. And it decays and attenuates faster under sea because of the existence of the magnetic field. The

Starting point is 03:04:00 electrons pair off very quickly because of the salt water, for example. And so there's a lot of talk around this idea of extended electrodynamics where you have a wave that could attenuate at one over R. And you'd have an electric field, a magnetic field, maybe running parallel. Maybe you wouldn't have a magnetic field. Maybe you wouldn't have an electric field running parallel to wave propagation or a magnetic field running parallel to the wave propagation. And you could transmit signals through deep space and through, you know, underwater and,

Starting point is 03:04:33 undersea, you know, even saltwater. And it would, you know, be near instantaneous. I think this is also called like scalar longitudinal waves or something like that, or that's an application of that theory. Again, I'm out of my depth when it comes to the technical language, but yes, the transmission of energy and the really space instantaneously seems to be where that leads. And also the extraction of energy. It's a reversible process as well, which is really fascinating. and potentially very, very dangerous. My understanding is that the Russians, I think, are also, you know,

Starting point is 03:05:14 have very well versed in this. Seems to be the case. You know, people dismiss Thomas Bearden. I mean, whatever. Let's just say it's true. He's a limited hangout mixed with disinformation. You're covering up a core truth, though, which is that this is an area of physics that does have applications to,

Starting point is 03:05:35 security but those same applications are potentially world changing in its term to certainly power transmission especially if you can connect this way of transmitting or extracting power with a

Starting point is 03:05:51 novel energy source that is potentially limited only based on its you know your ability to extract energy right very powerful economically. Thomas Bearden was this Navy guy

Starting point is 03:06:10 who constantly talked about sort of scalar weaponry. He said that the Soviets sort of figured out this massive death ray sort of thing. And I, maybe it was a limited hangout, but the limited hangout around Maxwell's equations comes up so much that there has to be,

Starting point is 03:06:28 when there's smoke, there's fire. Yes. There has to be something around a change in the math of Maxwell's equations or maybe going back to Maxwell's equations, which were actually condensed into heavy sides for vector calculus, simplified equations, there's something there.

Starting point is 03:06:44 The crossover to sort of what you're talking about, which is like the latent potential in just the vacuum or the void, again, is where there's smoke, their fire kind of situation. So like a zero point energy sort of thing? Basically, yeah. I think we're circling, quantum vacuum fluctuations that you can harness. That might be it.

Starting point is 03:07:08 Yeah. Again, only concerned with the fact of when I was learning these things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything that, you know, the other thing I find interesting is like spin orbit coupling of, like you have these what are called topological insulators. Do you know anything about that? Or plasma stuff. Topological insulators are like, you know, like when you get into like very, very, you know, like, when you get into like very, high up in the periodic table, like very heavy elements.

Starting point is 03:07:39 Few of them are stable, but take one like Bismuth, I think, which I think comes up a lot in sort of UFO lore. Bismuth's very strange. And you end up in this thing, it's called the, you know, it's the relativistic paradigm where when it's infused with energy, you end up with this repellent magnetic force instead of an inward attracting magnetic force. So it's almost like a Meisner effect. like it's like an anti-gravitational push off on anything trying to sort of touch it.

Starting point is 03:08:08 And I think there's something around that that seems really consequential as well because it dovetails with the Lazars stuff and, yeah, the brown stuff, but we can. No, it's fine. What would you, what would be the utility of that, I wonder? Is it levitation as like an inherent property of an object that is. If you could push off on the magnetic field of the earth, that would be really cool. Got it. Okay.

Starting point is 03:08:36 Yeah. See, that seems to be one of the modes of propulsion. You know, I don't know the mechanisms behind it, but at that high level is something I've heard. You know, whether that gets you out of the gravitational well of the earth, I don't know. How far do you think we've gotten in reverse engineering these things? Hmm. I think enough to have propulsion. and beamed power

Starting point is 03:09:05 so that you don't necessarily have to have an onboard power source for these devices, especially if you're able to do lossless or near lossless power beaming, you can do some pretty incredible things in relatively small form factors. And if you're able to, you know, put your power beaming system in orbit,

Starting point is 03:09:25 then you're able to essentially have global coverage and potentially, you know, have indefinite duration, surveillance or operations are staged in the atmosphere or exo atmosphere. How high confidence are you that some come from outer space

Starting point is 03:09:43 in our atmosphere? I mean, certainty. Certainty. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, again, whether that means they're interstellar or interplanetary, that doesn't prove that, but able to come in and out of our atmosphere. And that's

Starting point is 03:09:59 from stuff you've seen on the inside. Yes, and then also like, you know, people's testimony as well. I mean, if this was any other subject, the amount of witness testimony from people with placement and access would be overwhelming. 100%. No, I always say that. I agree with that. Where do you draw the line on what you can and can't say? To some, I mean, largely based on the Department of State cleared report and then inference is drawn from that report. So if I was to talk about something that I'd don't have a cleared basis to draw that inference from, but that inference is classified in other

Starting point is 03:10:43 sense. I feel like I'm on shaky ground. To put it simply, it seems like I'm more okay so far saying what I think and less of why I think it. Yeah. And you've experienced some pretty shitty reprisals, to put it euphemistically, right? Yeah. I keep a lot of things close to my chest. One, because there's nothing really to do about them, especially if they're state-sponsored or corporate-sponsored or foreign. Two, I mean, burden of proof is on the accuser, but if, you know, I'm not living with 24-hour surveillance around me,

Starting point is 03:11:31 recording all my interactions. So if something happens and then I come forward with my word, well, I'm the UFO guy, so it's easy to dismiss what I say. And, you know, the believe all victims thing doesn't seem to extend to UFO whistleblowers. It's been very unpleasant. You've had your house? Yes. Yeah, that's a well-known one, and it's mentioned the most because there's a, you know,

Starting point is 03:12:02 someday they can go get the police record for it, called them, had them visit and all that. you know, what's the point? Police were just as confused as I was about the whole thing, which is, you know, nothing of value was taken except for, yeah, nothing of value was taken. The only thing that was, like, totally removed from the premise and never recovered was my civilian passport. My grandfather's ashes were put out in the, in the alley behind her house by the garbage,

Starting point is 03:12:30 and, you know, my wife's documents were laid out in the way that clearly looked like, and someone would just line them up in a row, taking a photo of them and leaving them out there for us to find. They took your passport, lined up your wife's documents showing that they were sort of combing them over. And then that's so disrespectful, man. They took her grandfather's ashes

Starting point is 03:12:52 and they put them behind the alley. Yeah, yeah. And it all happened when we were there asleep. The only sign of entry was a very small basement window that was forced open and like, I fail to see how a, an adult male can get in there. So it was more likely that that was just done intentionally to demonstrate, you know, something had happened.

Starting point is 03:13:14 And they probably just came through my front door, picked the lock and, you know, walked in. I think there's like an old stossy method of like, I think it's called like move the furniture around, which is they show you that they can, they can touch you. And it sounds a lot like that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've had, at this point, I'm, people that have, either believe me or don't, so it's less costly to talk about things.

Starting point is 03:13:43 But, I mean, there's been other instances of, of, you know, either people demonstrating that they can reach out and touch me at any time, or incidentally just detecting some sort of surveillance or similar kind of operation being conducted. Yeah. You said that Office of Special Investigations in the Air Force is actively messing with UFO whistleblowers and their families and stuff as well and getting into their private lives. Is that is that right? Yeah, we got, I mean, that wasn't my experience, but that was, that is someone's experience in this world. They're not public. But, and there, but there was proof in this case of it. an AFOSI officer.

Starting point is 03:14:37 You know, there's no protections for whistleblowers. There's no witness protection program for Congress. We're out here on our own. You know, I've had instances that feel like foreign intelligence trying to penetrate my network and extract information and also deliver threats. That's certainly very concerning to me, both from, you know, I'm an American patriot. I don't want national secrets being extracted for me for foreign competitors gain, but then also concerning, which is that in the world of intelligence,

Starting point is 03:15:19 you know, using third parties to take care of your dirty dishes, take out your trash is something that's done because then it's deniable, right? It's not U.S. assets removing a person. It's foreign assets. So very uncomfortable. That's super uncomfortable. How has all of this affected you emotionally? And do you ever regret coming out?

Starting point is 03:15:48 I mean, I feel like I'm doing okay now, but for a long time is very stressful. And, you know, you get to a point where you're hyper vigilant. And then, you know, you're responding to things that aren't a threat in a way that doesn't match, like, the gravity of what's going on. So, you know, that's not good for anyone involved. Anybody deep into UFOs has been there. Yeah. That's not a healthy lifestyle, my name means. Do I regret coming forward?

Starting point is 03:16:24 I mean, on a personal level, yes. It's done nothing good for me or my wife or my friends and family. There's been no meaningful reform. There's been no official disclosure. There's been no justice for anyone, whether myself, other whistleblowers, or the people involved in Legacy Program where they're the victims of associated activities. People get entertainment out of this.

Starting point is 03:16:52 They get their curiosity satisfied to a certain degree. They get to mock and laugh if they don't believe. So on a personal level, yeah, I have a lot of regrets. There's been zero benefit, only downsides. And people in my life have been hurt just because of, you know, virtue of association with me. But from a civic duty perspective, from a moral duty perspective, from a, you know, what is good for humanity perspective,

Starting point is 03:17:23 no, I don't have regrets. It needed to be done. I just hope that, you know, eventually it leads to meaningful change. What do you wake up every morning now feeling now that you're on the outside? Hmm. nothing so nothing very dramatic i'm more i've tried to focus more on my you know physical spiritual and emotional health uh focused more on being a good husband a good brother good friend so what am i thinking about it's how to do those things each day um and you know disclosure is kind of uh

Starting point is 03:18:06 it's always in the background it's never going anywhere um but it's uh it's not the first thing I think about anymore. That's healthy. Speaking of whistleblower protections, you have this very cool new initiative. Maybe put your leg down, so I see your shirt. There you go.

Starting point is 03:18:24 What does that say? Vanguard. Yes. What is Vanguard. So this is a Vanguard Enterprise, Vanguard for short. It's a nonprofit that Dylan Borland and myself have started, and Jeffrey Nusatelli has now joined.

Starting point is 03:18:40 It's basic, it's pretty simple. it's a organization, a charity to support and empower UAP whistleblowers from the National Security Enterprise, helping them with their legal, financial slash career transition, medical, psychological, and community needs. We're very much in early days on that. You know, we have a short list of people we know need help, and we, you know, need to raise the resources to fulfill on delivering those forms. of assistance, but, you know, it's been

Starting point is 03:19:14 encouraging some, yeah, it's been encouraging to see some serious community support and hope to build off of that and try to, try to help people because the government isn't. That's beautiful, man. And where can people donate? You can find our website at vanguardenterprice.org. There's a link to support. We use a platform called Give Butter. It's only for nonprofits. So every donation you made through there, you automatically get a

Starting point is 03:19:41 email and you can you know use that to claim any taxes as a charitable donation sweet what's that trippy pyramid floating around above earth and then you have the upside down triangle it's a very interesting logo yeah we spent a lot of time on it um how we have a great team of volunteers that have been helping us for for a while now and and this is one of one of their products um you know there's there's various ways the symbolism can be interpreted, but where we started with was the World War II V for victory. And that's kind of where we based the shape on. And then from there, kind of got this evocative motif going. Very cool. Anything else we missed?

Starting point is 03:20:31 Probably can't go into it too much, but I would just also add that another area of science and technology that people should be aware of is advancing or has advanced quite rapidly. It is in the biotechnology realm. And that definitely overlays with the phenomena that we're talking about. And it is currently, you know, one of the most unrecognized, I guess, trends that's going to, that is in the process of changing our environment. What sort of biotech? Genetic editing?

Starting point is 03:21:06 I mean, definitely when, comes to you know uh constructing or or changing the human genome for specific purposes but things like entirely synthetic biological constructs and then the interplay between directed energy and synthetic or modified biology well there's some very um important things that people should start pulling the threat on in those areas and that this again gets back to consciousness and and how it is manipulated through both natural means and increasingly technological means. So like psychotronic weaponry?

Starting point is 03:21:47 So I've only heard that term on the outside. Yeah. But I mean, yes, I think we eventually get there. I think that's more specifically a directed energy application. Could you cause somebody to hear or see something through directed energy? Definitely hear. Yeah. I, you know, directed energy is a very broad category.

Starting point is 03:22:14 I have very good reason to believe that, you know, essentially our mind is no longer sovereign. It can be interfaced with through remote means as well as, you know, direct, you know, kind of devices, right? Even our dreams are now subject to technological manipulation. This isn't even classified knowledge. at least anymore. You can look at technical applications from MIT itself relating to dream implantation, including at a distance. Whoa. So, you know.

Starting point is 03:22:50 And do you think ideas can be implanted and somebody's waking life? Yes. That's freaky. It is. And you're high confidence. I'm certain. That's insane. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 03:23:01 Yeah, it's interesting. I interviewed this guy, Dr. Colin Ross, and he wrote a book called CIA Doctors. And it's all the, you know, whole MK. Ultra thing and how all these psychiatrists were distributed across the United States, often at, you know, elite universities. And like Jolly West, for example, was like head of UCLA psychiatry for a very long time. He's talking with Sidney Gottlie back and forth. He's probably M.K. Ultring, you know, Charles Manson. Like, it's wild, like the history of our country. And it's interesting. He wrote a follow-up book on directed energy and electromagneticism in the body. And so it's not even. It's not even. wacky at all to say that that electromagnetism has this fundamental influence on life. You know, there's a great professor named Michael Levin at Tufts. And he talks about, you know, how morphology, like basically the form that your body takes is more dictated by the local electromagnetic field than it is by DNA. And that in some ways, that's the, you know, the DNA is providing the proteins, which is the hardware.

Starting point is 03:24:04 but the software that's writing on top of it is electromagnetism. And if you put a frog embryo, for example, in a Faraday cage, so you eliminate, you know, all electromagnetic interference, it won't grow correctly. And then if you put something next to something radioactive, like, you know, in, you know, Chernobyl, like, you know, things get mutated or near the Fukushima disaster. You have excess radiation or no radiation. If you eliminate the human resonance, you know, even astronauts have issues with their bodies when they go into space. So there's something about electromagnetism in life. And, you know, our cells communicate

Starting point is 03:24:39 via voltage-gated ion channels. So they're, you know, it's very, very essential. It's fundamental. Yeah. And if you look at all the Havana syndrome directed energy stuff, the person is being wholly destabilized by microwaves essentially. Yes. So I think this is another area where it's provably suppressed science, the interaction between the human body and, uh, our nerves. system or organs. But you think we can, semantic content can be relayed into somebody's,

Starting point is 03:25:10 like, no, it can. Oh my God. And this isn't even like a natural, like a woo, or psychic thing that through artificial means, ideas can be implanted or transferred or played in the human mind

Starting point is 03:25:24 in multiple ways, actually, you know, uh, the most crude of which you could call, like, the voice to skull technology is, I never saw a,

Starting point is 03:25:33 on the inside, I know a different term, but that's the public one. There's those, again, public things, which is like, you know, using a pulsed microwave to cavitate water and essentially generate sound or heat. And also, interestingly enough, light is able to modulate DNA. You know, biophysics as a field is an area that has immense potential to, that changed the human experience for both the better and the worst. And I think, unfortunately, most of this research has been in the security, intelligence, and military realm. So the applications are understandably focused on things not oriented towards human flourishing,

Starting point is 03:26:19 more towards control and such. Naturally. I mean, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and you're not going to be engaging in the research for the betterment of humanity. You're going to be doing it for sort of destructive means. But it's so unfortunate when you end up with civil side science that's lagging, you know, all sorts of really exciting stuff behind the Iron Curtain. And it's only being used for weapons. And we're still flying 747s from, you know, the 60s.

Starting point is 03:26:47 And we still use... Again, it's not even crazy at all to say, you know, biochemistry is the only layer with which we treat the body. And fundamental, the biochemistry is physics. It's acoustics. And electromagnetism, all three of those things, that's not, that's passe to say, it's conventional in science to say that. So why wouldn't we have some sort of deeper, more granular understanding of how those three things interact with the human body?

Starting point is 03:27:17 Of course we would. And then where I'm both freaked out, but also intrigued, because I'm sure they're really positive applications of this, is how the hell would you distill an electromagnetic signal into like semantic content and then transmit that into somebody's mind. Like that's, you know, that's the secret sauce. I wish I could give you that answer. But I actually suspect, you know,

Starting point is 03:27:41 there's enough leads in the open source or gray literature on this that, you know, motivated parties could replicate that capability. Do you ever wonder if we're playing in sort of padded walls? Like the whole UFO conversation is somewhat limited, and it's limited by people who have capabilities on the level of, you know, being able to confine what we're thinking about and causing us to sort of chase our tail. Like, often it feels like right when

Starting point is 03:28:14 you're about to get smoking gun evidence, it goes missing. And I talked about this with Dylan, you know, Borland. I was like, do you think that the non-human intelligence is involved in the cover up itself or something? And he was like, yes. Yeah. I for sure know that. My opinion? Yeah. Absolutely, yes. Have you ever talked to anybody in incredible position in the government who seems to have hinted that humans aren't in charge?

Starting point is 03:28:42 The ICIG did it with me personally. I want to respect them. Okay. The ICIG did it with me. So the intelligence community inspector general told you that humans are not in charge. They extremely hinted at it, yes. It's almost like a defining, almost design feature of the entire U.S. Fospace is like you and Jacques Valet writes about this and he wrote about it 50 years ago and I don't

Starting point is 03:29:05 know if he's that much closer to the truth now than he is then after decades of studying this thing you're in this construct their control mechanisms are being used to cause you to literally chase your tail and you are always on the verge of some smoking gun and it always slips through your fingers. Yeah I mean on on one side of that is I mean this is a heavily monitored community so they know what we're talking about and once they detect that there might be an effort to try to actually get something, they already are well aware.

Starting point is 03:29:40 Yeah, yeah. They can take that preemptive measure. But it makes sense, though, that the others or the non-human intelligences would, if, as they seem to be, are invested in keeping us unaware of their presence, that they would kind of prevent independent discovery outside of their controlled, you know, relationships with human proxies.

Starting point is 03:30:05 I believe Dylan. I also believe that what that points at is, is collaboration between us and, and some sort of third, third party. Most likely in my mind, we're the juniors in that partnership. Yeah, makes sense. Well, on that note, Matthew Brown, thank you so much for coming. This has been a long time coming.

Starting point is 03:30:25 This is a lot of fun. And, yeah, I just, I don't know. I hope that please donate to Vanguard. Check out the website. What's the website? Vanguardenterprice.org. Okay, check that out. Donate.

Starting point is 03:30:38 Please give whatever you have. And yeah, I really appreciate you coming. Thank you, Jesse. This was quite a pleasure. Like you said, long time coming. I'm really happy to finally have the chance to do this. So thank you. Yeah, wide-ranging discussion.

Starting point is 03:30:53 Awesome. The Royal Canadian Legion is celebrating its 100th anniversary. And now our change has a $2 coin to mark this milestone. Honor the Legion's mission to carry forward stories of service and sacrifice to new generations. And their dedication to supporting veterans and their families from coast to coast to coast. Celebrate this enduring legacy. Find the 100th anniversary of the Royal Canadian Legion $2 coin today.

American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Pentagon Whistleblower UNLOADS on Alien Hybrid Breeding Programs (ft. Matthew Brown)

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