American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Presidential Advisor: “I Directly Handled UFO Material” (Ft. Harald Malmgren)

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Join us for a special episode with former presidential advisor Harald Malmgren. A 27 year old Harald Malmgren literally saved the world from nuclear catastrophe during The Cuban Missile Crisis when Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara and President JFK asked him to “buy time for diplomacy” by facing off against General Curtis “Bombs Away” LeMay. Malmgren, the youngest of the “whiz kids”, went on to become a presidential advisor not just to JFK, but LBJ, Nixon and Ford. He had a personal relationship with Putin and advised every Japanese Prime Minister since Tanaka in the 70’s, Giscard d’Estaing, Pompidou and others. He was assigned to “contain” Kissinger and worked closely with Howard Baker, George Schulz, Volcker and Mondale not to mention Nobel Prize winners Tom Schelling and Sir John Hicks. Unusually, he had ALL the so called Q Clearances. His credentials are unimpeachable. Harald is a hero who saved the world (and more than once). There was more he held back and that he took to his grave. He was an angel amongst devils and his legacy should make all world leaders think twice, reflect and “lower the temperature” on the world stage when contemplating brinksmanship. We barely scratched the surface on what he likely had to say and will have to mull this over for years. But it’s a quantum leap forward for disclosure and simply can’t be ignored by members of the mainstream media. We are extremely grateful to Harald’s incredible daughter Pippa Malmgren for co-hosting this discussion. She was Special Assistant to President Bush and a member of The National Economic Council and a very heterodox thinker in her own right. She teased the truth from her father and helped him come forward with his critically important insights. She set the whole discussion up and we’re forever indebted for her entrusting us to help tell Harald’s story. She said that Bissell told my Dad - “because you’ll need to pass it along in the future at the right time”. At 89, she knew her father in turn had to relay this vital information, this time, on a broader stage as our multipolar nuclear world remains stuck in old paradigms. Australian Intelligence Analyst Geoffrey Cruikshank, who has gone deeper than anyone in the world on analyzing the Bluegill Triple Prime Test UFO incident, also conferred with Harald Malmgren to confirm the veracity of his foundational research. His research was essential to this piece. Rest in peace Harald Bernard Malmgren (July 13th 1935 - February 13th 2025). -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ http://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Not for any of us to understand the world and how the world works. It's October of 1962, the heart of the Cold War. Images from an American U-2 revealed that the Soviet Union had secretly begun building missile bases in Cuba, just 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Strategic Air Command was placed in DefCon 2, the only time that's ever happened in the history of the United States. Khrushchev and Kennedy both had top military strategists pushing them to draw first blood.

We are asking tonight that an emergency meeting of the Security Council be convoked without delay. Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command of the Air Force, wanted to deal a death blow to the Soviets. Amidst this tense backdrop, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara called one of his top aides, a 27-year-old wiz kid named Harold Malmgren into the Situation Room. Don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down, reduce the heat in the room,

give us time to wear something out. Miraculously, the Hail Mary worked. Harold, the youngest man in the Situation Room, ran circles around one of the most aggressive four-star generals in American history. And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically back them into a corner where you say, what would be your prime target first? Yeah, I said it's madness. If you hit Moscow, there's no one to talk to.

And then that's at that point, right, LeMay storms out. Yeah, he literally got up and slammed his papers down. I can't, I'm not going, I refuse to ground with this. Malmgram went on to become a top presidential advisor for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. and the fact that he neutralized LeMay and saved the world is the least interesting thing I'll be discussing with him. You've been dropping bombs on the internet, saying some amazing things. Jay of King, well, he knew all about you as long before he became president.

Harold had been tweeting things that have taken it all seriously alongside his credentials and background would wholesale overturn your worldview. No, he said, Hamlet. These are things that have come down. So you're looking at like anomalous material? Yeah. Debris. Yeah.

This interview changed my life forever and will hopefully do the same for you. In it, Harold admits to directly handling UFO material that fell out of the plume of a Marshall Islands nuclear test. This is world history. It's the first time anybody of this caliber has ever admitted to handling UFO material directly. What did it feel? like. He discusses getting briefed on other world technologies by deputy director of plans for the CIA and chief architect of Area 51, Richard Bissell. Malmgram tells me that Bissell confirmed to him the existence of the Magenta UFO crash of 1933 in Italy recently reported on by UFO whistleblower

David Grush. He did. Yes. Richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 Magenta crash. That's amazing. If that's not enough, Malmgram also implies that he was being tracked by the Majestic 12 from a young age. The Majestic 12 is an elite group of military science and government advisors governing the UFO issue that were described in document leaks in the 80s and 90s. But this is the first time anybody of this caliber has ever mentioned that name. You have uncovered collaboration between Nikola Tesla and Thomas Townsend's Brown? What source did you get it from?

Foreign intelligence. We get into the Chinese science fiction novel, the three-body problem, which Harold believes may be the best model we have for the UFO story. It's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech development. That's at the heart of it. Yeah. Harold's daughter, Pippa, would know that. She was special assistant to President Bush and

on his National Economic Council. It's now public knowledge through Howe Put Off that George W. Bush contemplated UFO disclosure with his national security advisor, Stephen Hadley. As Pippa relayed to me, a lot of these high-level disclosure discussions revolved around one particular book, a Chinese science fiction novel called The Three Body Problem, which became mandatory reading among many high-level national security advisors in the United States. And to fast forward spending time with my own father. and discovering that he's been involved with this from the earliest days.

Finally, we discussed secret science going on at sensitive Department of Energy sites across the country. Alan Dulles, the director of the CIA, the Italian mob, secret societies, the JFK assassination, and how all of these might relate to UFOs. The relationship needs to be uncovered between Angleton's father, Engleton, and the Knights of volatile. Wow. Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death? Do I think some? Yes. I think it was probably the number one issue. In many ways, Malmgren was sort of a forest gump of global elite politics. Bemaichhard, this for me, found me in a crowd, brought me over, and he introduced me to Putin.

Now, I knew enough to realize that that was an enough. not an accidental meeting. It became clear to me in the midst of this interview that Harold was part of a much deeper intelligence network that we barely scratched the surface on. You are now part of a network of people. It will be known that you've been blessed. If I had a choice, I would have spent weeks with Harold

going deep on his vast knowledge of UFOs, deep politics, and global power structures. Unfortunately, a day after our interview, we had to rush him to the hospital. That hospital visit ended up lasting a few weeks, culminating in his tragic passing. But when I was back in Austin, Harold insisted on speaking to me on the phone to follow up.

His vitals on the cusp of failure, just three days before his death. He revealed even more to me, things that will make you further question your reality. In this final courageous interview, Harold Malmgren transcends his earthly oaths, and adheres to a higher godly principle in one final act of service to humanity. One that may end up being just as consequential as saving the earth from nuclear catastrophe.

Without further ado, please welcome this week's American alchemist. May he rest in peace, presidential advisor and international peacekeeper, the Honorable Harold Malmgren. Harold, it's Jesse. Oh, hi, hi, Jesse. How are you? Good, man. How are you? It's the more important question. and he scared me last week. I'm having to an inch person that's, oh, I didn't know that. Well, I'm flinked by greatness and just honored to be here.

I'm here with Dr. Harold Malmgram, who was a presidential advisor to four different presidents, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford, among various other amazing accolades. You helped stop a couple of global crises if we're going to get into that. But I think for the purposes of this conversation, you've been dropping bombs on the internet and really saying some amazing things that deal with the nature of reality, non-human intelligence, UFOs, or as they're commonly referred to now, UAPs, and informal briefs that you've gotten on the subject. And so I couldn't be more excited to be speaking with you now about all this. And we also have Dr. Pipple Malmgren, who is equally amazing.

and she was a special assistant to George W. Bush on his National Economic Council. She's written a few great books. I recommend you all check them out. And she's going to be joining us for this conversation as well. So I'm honored to be here with both of you guys. Thank you so much for having it. Absolutely. Well, I'm honored because I've watched your work with several people. And you've done an amazing job.

The most, one's stuck in my mind is your work. interview with Matthew Pines. Well, that means so much. Matthew Pines makes it easy. He's one of the smartest people I've met and has a really interdisciplinary understanding. He can go from physics. I'm not a practicing physicist. It's not my job.

But I'm trying to like familiarize myself with Garrett-Lisi's stuff, with Sabina's stuff, Wolfram and Jonathan Garrard. But he can also understand the minutia of Washington and how it works. Yeah, that's why I like him. Yeah. He's unusual. He is very unusual. So you ended up known as one of Robert McNamara's whiz kids, quote unquote, and just this kind of child prodigy, but you grew up on the other side of the tracks. And so I'd love to hear just a little bit about your childhood.

Well, I was born in the middle of the Great Depression. And my mother and father were immigrants from Sweden. We lived right by now. against the Bay, just off the Atlantic. When I was just turning seven, my mother said, well, this is the day you have to start working. So when you come home from school, I'm going to go down to the water and bring home dinner.

Because we found rationing at that time, meat rationing. I learned to use a boat, learn to fish, learned to get crab traps, even had lobster traps, dig up shellfish. So every day he brought home something. It became second nation. Sometimes I had to stop and pick up an ice, big piece of ice, because we didn't have refrigerators. It was completely heavy. I was still little.

Anyway, when I was 13, going on 14, just before my 14th birthday. My father had found work as a restoration specialist. We restored old mansions in Newport around Boston, particularly near Cambridge. We were working on this big house. He said, can you help me? It's the summer. And so I was working with steel wool and some kind. a solution to clear walnut panels.

And this big gentleman came in the room and said, hello young man, what are you doing? You know, I'm helping my dad. He said, sit down and talk to me. And that was a little bit unusual. Why is he going to talk to me? Anyway, we talked. You know, what are doing the school?

but you're learning about two hours later, my father said, I want to take this boy out of your school. I wanted to come in September and matriculate into my seat. And we'll give him a full scholarship all four years. I'm not sure he needs the full four years.

We'll give him all the years he needs. We'll give him an internship. You don't have to worry about summers, and if all goes well, we'll take them all the way to graduate school. I said, well, wait a minute, I'm not ready to leave home. And he said, listen to me, I'm really offering a whole new life. He said, yeah, but I like my life. But Paul come to him.

He said he was President of MIT, and I didn't know then the, whole history of the large role he played in the Second World War. I think he was in charge of the World Production Board at some point. So this was Carl Compton, who was the sitting president of MIT, which allowed him, he had the power to offer you a full ride. He had the power to do that. Yeah. So we ended up friendly, but he said, you've talked about things at the very first of the very

frontier physics. At that 13 or 14? Yeah, he said, you stunned me because you brought up, what is a photon? Why don't we understand it? Why don't we have a picture of it? We have a picture of everything else, no proton. I said, I thought about it and thought about it.

I didn't know Einstein's dilemma. So I said, it's something that operates in interaction with something else, probably another photon, and probably it's in pulses, and probably there doesn't matter how far apart. It's just that interaction, but you can't get a picture of it

because those pulses are so too fast and design just two different things. Probably it's more than two, probably as many. And that's the problem that you're trying to get at something specific when it's not specific. And he said, no, it's not that thing. So you don't understand.

You haven't invented mine. You see beyond what the biggest minds. I said yes, but I'm not ready to go home. I leave home. Malmgram displayed knowledge of physics concepts with Compton that he wasn't supposed to. Not only because he was too young to know these concepts, but because they hadn't even been proven experimentally yet.

Entangled photons are considered a single system in quantum mechanics, meaning that even when separated by large distances, they instantly affect each other's states, essentially acting as a single unit. They also conserve quantum properties with respect to one another. This is now commonplace knowledge, but Malmgram was saying this at the age of 14 in 1950,

and while entanglement as a concept was predicted by Einstein and his colleagues in 1935, the treatment of entangled photons as a system was only made explicit in the 60s and 70s, with Bell's inequality theorem and with the measurements of physicist John Klauser. So how did young Malmgram understand this concept at 14 as a poor painter's son? There's a bit of a backstory,

and part of my job in the interview is just to pull out some of this background that led to my father's extraordinary career. But the key was, before you met Carl Compton, you'd written to the atomic energy agency asking for background on nuclear physics. So you'd, at that age, already read an immense amount. Can we show some of that correspondent? Yeah. Do we have the...

This is amazing. This is here, the control of atomic energy. So this is what they sent back to you. Genetic effects of atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. See, that's really interesting. They were really interested in the genetic stuff. And you have Detlev-Bronk is written about here. You know, Detlev Brank was the president of the Rockefeller Foundation, but he was also president of Johns Hopkins, who's rumored to be on this quote-unquote majestic 12 and do autopsies on non-human intelligence bodies.

And then you had all these studies going on at the time, like the Cambridge Labs, where you had the Polaroid founder and a bunch of these guys studying. human genetics with respect to radiation. And Annie Jacobson has uncovered a lot about Area 51, where they were doing a lot of human genetic experimentation vis-a-vis radiation as well. And again, some of these photographs are quite extraordinary. And when I came across them in Dad's old files, I'm like, what the heck are these? Wow. And they're from the Atomic Energy Commission and there are photographs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These are Geiger counters, is that right? You were telling me last night? This is Hiroshima, Credit U.S. Air Force. Wow. This is amazing. So that's why he knew a lot at that age, and Carl Compton starts to register

the president of MIT that he's got this kid who's basically holding the paint pocket for his dad, and he knows a lot about photons. And so I think that's where this began. He was identified at a very early age as someone with a very particular proclivity. Yeah. And then fast forward because, you know, I looked at my dad's career. I look back and I'm like, how the heck did you end up at age 27 being the joint liaison between the joint chiefs and the President of the United States National Security Council under Bob McNamara and JFK just as the Cuban Missile Crisis at beginning?

And, you know, Dad has an amazing story to tell about what it was like to be in that room as the decisions were being made. And he played a really critical part in preventing a nuclear catastrophe. That's so amazing. Which is a story I think he should tell. Yeah, I can't wait to hear. But clearly you had been tracked at a young age. I mean, this is a letter that you're receiving from Oak Ridge, National Labs, and it's atomic bomb engineering. So it's clear that they are like, okay, here's this whiz kid.

Let's give him a limited information set, see what he can do with it, and maybe have some sort of initiation path. How you almost, you know, serendipitously and miraculously wind up at Carl Compton's house holding a paint bucket. I don't quite know. I don't can't explain that. Who is this Carl Compton? Well, he served as the president of MIT from 1930 to 1948. During that time, he also served on Franklin Delano Roosevelt's National Defense Research Council and worked closely with Vannevar Bush on federally funded scientific research for the promotion

of American military supremacy. At MIT, Compton was heavily involved in the famous Rad Lab and its development of American radar. His top technical aid was John Trump. If you recognize that name, it's because John Trump is the late uncle of our current sitting president, Donald. Trump. And John Trump was charged with investigating Tesla's files that were confiscated by the FBI to see if they'd confer any tactical warfare advantages to the United States.

One of Trump's last interviews was also featured in a documentary on Thomas Townsend Brown's Philadelphia experiment. But I was particularly looking for something which would just be evidence of a secret weapon, which was a matter of concern to the United States. But I digress. For the purposes of this conversation with Harold, Carl Compton pops up in UFO history twice. First, you have Robert Sarbach,

former head of Washington National Labs, also one of America's premier nuclear scientists. Sarbacher is famously on record saying that UFO secrecy is classified at two levels higher than the hydrogen bomb. But Sarbacher also told nuclear engineer and UFO researcher Stanton Friedman that, that none other than MIT President Carl Compton was briefed on UFO technology at Right Airfield in 1950.

But there are more UFO touchpoints for Compton. Another researcher in California named William Steinman had been corresponding with Fred Darwin, the former executive director of the Guided Missile Committee for the DoD's R&D Board from 1949 to 1954. Darwin listed these names as involved in a special committee on flying saucers at the highest level. Dr. Vannevar Bush, Dr. Lloyd Berkner, Dr. Robert F. Reinhart, Dr. Eric A. Walker, Dr. John von Neumann, and one, Dr. Carl T. Compton. Finally, when government transparency researcher John Greenwald used the Freedom of Information

Act to retrieve Compton's records, he received a reply back in April of 2014. Quote unquote, Records which may have been responsive to your request were destroyed August 30, 2006. Why would the FBI destroy a file on an innocent university professor? And why would they have a file on him in the first place? Those are good questions. And how did Little Harold Malmgram somehow end up holding a paint bucket at Carl Compton's house a couple of years after Harold had written to the Atomic Energy Commission wanting to learn more about the American nuclear program?

That might be an even better question. Well, and he had gone on to work with Tom Schelling, who was father of game theory. Yes. The application to conflict resolution across many different things, but nuclear. And working with many Nobel Prize winners, including Sir John Hicks at Oxford. And so I think when Kennedy came in, he knew some of the Nobel Prize winners. and he asked them, who's your brightest kid? And dad's name just kept showing up on the list.

It's fascinating. So then, okay, what happens? So you're recognized by Carl Compton. You have this correspondence with the Atomic Energy Commission. How do you end up from that situation to the situation room during the Cuban Missile Crisis as either the youngest person in the room? I'm still in front of recent stress. At Yale, I was still a huge athlete and a really top student.

I was ranked. First, along with another person who later became chief dresses of the Arkansas State Supreme Court. I had moved from physics to the economics because I thought, my parents need help and I get older and I need to do something to make money. economic sounds like money. So I got a grant from Yale to go to somewhere, and I wanted to go to Oxford as a dream. And I went there, really found in love with it.

I didn't really study anything specific. I went to everything. And then I met a lady there who's American, and those things happened. I got pretty attached. And I came back after my one-year grant to Harvard. And after I was partly way through the first term, McGeorge Bundy, who was then Gene, had me in,

and he said, we hear you're thinking you to leave again to go back to Oxford, but we want to offer you something special. We'll give you three years, all expenses, including summer, and all you've got to do is write a book. You don't have to attend any classes. If you write the book, we'll almost certainly publish it, and that will be your PhD. And this is at Harvard? Yeah. That's a great deal.

Yeah. He said it a great deal, and I said, yeah, but my brain was somewhat. So I was by this girl. But also, Oxford offered me, they said, just come here, but we'll take care of you. You can do your PhD here. And so I did that. Married that girl as Pippa's mother. And, you know, there's always an element of frailty in unexpected ways.

in speaking of my males. But at Oxford, so John Hooks decided well, he and his wife invited me to dinner. And she explained, she was a public finance expert. So she decided to explain to me

her husband felt I was an original thinker and that they only come alone once every 25, 13, 40 years. She said, At Yale, you went deep into mathematical economics. So I told my husband that you've got to convince this young man to just dump all that mathematics in a storage shed and start working more fundamentally at behavioral economics.

and I remember the first paper I gave him was really a moment of insight I gave him this paper nine pages roughly full of math and he said this looks very interesting come back next week after I read it came back next week he said don't sit here in the student reception room coming to my inner chambers

sit down here by the fire. I thought, is this bad or good? And I began to inflate. He really thinks I'm good. He said, but you know, it took me the entire week to find it out. How many people of my caliber do you think in your lifetime are going to spend three or four

days of their time trying to understand you? He said, I think this is not the way make progress. So it's then it's near the end of term. I want you to go get a hold of a big amount of the Gibbons decline and fall, which is in several volumes. And read everything you can before the vacation period is over. Decline and fall around.

Yeah. Yeah. So I came back and said, what have you learned? And I said, well, I only got to something, chapter or whatever. And he said, that's not bad. The reason I wanted to read that at a dead run is because you have to know how it was written. Gibbons didn't do it brick by brick. He wrote it at a dead run from his mind and said, you got to learn to do that.

you have plenty to say, you know how to say it, so write it that way. Don't stop to see if you can fit it to some model. And so we had a marvelous experience. And then soon afterwards, he said, there are people you should meet. So some of the best people at Cambridge came to see me, famous names.

And then he said, Hayek, Friedrich von Heirke. I persuaded him to come to Oxford and meet you. So he came. I spent time with him. For me, I knew who he was. It was very impressive. And then on another occasion,

there had been a big debate in the 1920s, going to the 30s, between Moonming Banis, on behalf of the Austrian capitalism, economists, and the communist central planet. The opposite from Van Mises was Oskill Lange's. Oscar Lange. I had dinner with me.

We had a fight. Centralization automatically degrades itself because you restrict everybody from innovation, adaptation. Once you do that, there's no change. So you would be more on the Austrian school side? Yes. Okay. I am too.

Yeah, well. Although I'm far inferior of the economics. I'm still the same. I'm totally convinced that China collapsed because of over-central. Sure. Anyway, by the way, in the 1980s, I was in China for some kind of an SRI meeting. Stanford Research Institute? Yeah.

And they invited me along. And the senior Chinese, very interesting, it's years later, say, can we have dinner with you alone? No, okay. Why not? So three of the most senior economic officials, we had long-during, we know about your work on centralization. Really? How do you know about it? We had your thesis translated, and we talked to Osceola and some other people.

We had an argument. I said over-centralization with the world. bring you destruction. It's impossible. It's too big to manage. Anyway, so going back to Oxford,

I finished up there and there was bidding more like an NBA or National Football League bidding

when graduates. So MIT and Stanford and Harvard and some others, Princeton, offered me a post. And Cornell said, we'll trump the others. We'll offer you a new chair just endowed now. So you can bypass the normal process of seven years and assistant professors and associate professor eventually.

You can start at the top. So I said, okay, I'll accept. And I came to Cornell with Piper's mother. Pippa was born in May of that year, and we were living in the house of Nabokov, the Russian author. Wow. He was on leave, and I leased from him. In Ithaca, New York.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it was an adventure. And he was something impressive. I mean, all these fortunate developments happen in my life. Anyway. By the way, these also became clues for me later. Uh-huh.

Because I realized Nabokov was said to be a CIA asset. Really? And was used to help use literature as a means of propaganda. And there are lots of stuff. stories about what would be agents. Agencies using Dr. Javago as a medium

for fomenting opposition within the Soviet Union. And so I'm kind of like, how the heck do we end up in Nabokov's house? Oh, wow. And maybe the answer was that, you know, there was already at that time an intelligence world

that, you know, in later years, because of dad's work in nuclear negotiations that again maybe he'd been kind of identified early on but I would love for you dad to just dive into you are in the situation room you are down to the last three hours before you all think that you're hitting the nuclear go button and can you just describe what was it like in that moment and how did you avert the nuclear crisis a strict quarantine on all offensive military equipment under shipment to Cuba is being initiated. I was appointed liaison between McNamara and McGeorge Bundy and the NJFK.

I mean, pretty critical job. The McNamara's Secretary of Defense at the time. And so, all right, I'm there. I'm wondering what I'm going to work on. And suddenly the Cuban Missy. crisis unfolds and I get a call and Bob wants you to work directly with a small group in the war room I said what's the war room it's where the generals meet and decide you know no go because they have the weapons mean my house doesn't happen and um so this is

Bob McNamara he wants you to meet He brought me to be there in that room as his guy. They would know him his guy. And I said, yeah, they're not going to be eager to hear from this young sport. He said, don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down, reduce the heat in the room, get everybody more calm. And if you just keep asking questions and make them think,

you'd be surprised how far that goes. And it buys us time, it takes the pressure off from them. Because there are some people in that group, I didn't realize with Curtis LeMay. They were worried about who wants to go ahead and punish Russia for even trying. So I get started in that And after a few days Got used to the group

They get used to me They didn't ask me to get to coffee They treated me like Okay, but long they were there And I didn't say anything that made them I didn't talk down to them Asked them How's your wife today

So it's up And we got to the Last hours roughly four hours when JFK told whose job we put a quarantine around

Cuba if one of your ships breaks through the quarantine that will be an active war and we will take action we didn't specify and among the generals

there were arguments what should we do do we take out the missiles that are in human well we don't know whether some are armed or not do we know that they have the ability

to do more than we see might they start World War III in order to get a step ahead this was a time of mutually sure destruction and it was like really terrifying in some sense

and so we end that final hours waiting to see if they were going to stop or not and there was communication going on none of us were privy to between Hushchev and J.F.K. And there was one additional element in history books have omitted

the Russian ambassador in Dobridan. He arrived that year in Washington. He was unique. He wasn't a typical diplomat. He was a member of the Central Committee in Moscow. They sent him to Washington as the highest-ranking politician in Moscow.

And in that position, he was able to himself talk. with the top people in the Central Committee. Anyway, in the final hours, education level was high. We all sat down after somebody had coffee break, and one of the senior generals sent a signal and we didn't have cell phones.

came in, said, I want you to call Mary, my wife. Tell her to load the car, get everything ready to go, and drive as fast as you can to Maine to our country place. And then he said, let's resume now, gentlemen. Yeah, it's like literally, Mary, take the kids and get out of here, right? Like, we're about to be at the end. Oh, God. And this is the bit, Dad, where it's so important that it's Curtis

who wants to drop anew. So maybe Dr. Strangelove wasn't so... It was based on him. Yeah, well, let me finish the story. So in the group, I said, gentlemen, every, all the thinking of the last, ever since the bomb was dropped in Japan, all the thinking is about mutually assured destruction.

If we go, we both get obliterated. Does this make any sense to any of us in this room? There must be some degree of action less than that. And they all said, yeah, well, we haven't explored that. I said, yeah, we don't have any calibration, any idea of small steps, or ways to convince that we're serious. What I mean, I mean, if we attack Russia, what are we really ready for that? No.

Now, if we attack Cuba and Russia thinks it's the first step, that they want to get one step ahead of us by being first actor, well, that would be bad. We can't know what they're thinking, but we have to kind of think about that. Or we may take some step and they fire a little bit at us. But a little bit makes us pissed off.

And then we decided to unload everything. First, LeMay is in this group saying my strategic bombers are ready. You know we had all these missiles, but... His nickname is Bombs away. Bones away. I have, no. I had no idea with a miserable, mean, arrogant guy this was.

I mean, there was nothing written a lot about him other than he was super aggressive. Is he Chief of Staff of the Air Force at this time? Strategic Air Command. He's... Strategic Air Command. Okay. And it's important that you mention how he says, my guys, we keep... setting them up to the point of no return.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to say. He sat in the room, took all these other generals and admirals. You can't imagine the morale problem I have. Every day I send my boys out there, they reach the point of no return where if they keep going, they'll run out of fuel. And you said,

I have to order them back. He said, the morale is really, they're ready. He's playing with millions of people's lives to make sure that the morale of his, you know, units are okay. Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair must, but I do say no more than 10 to 20 million killed, tops, depending on the brakes.

That's... He said that, and everyone in the room looked down and they'll laugh. They didn't want to eyeball. You know, like, I didn't hear that. Yeah, it's like if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. I mean, he's also, for the context for the audience, he was in charge of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron in Roswell, New Mexico, that was responsible for the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Yeah, and he was in charge of all the firebombing in Germany. Yeah. I mean, yeah, his idea of enemies. is obliterate them. Anyway, I didn't know what I was up against, but, you know, it might have scared me, but it didn't. So I said, well, all the rest of us, let's kind of play the options.

We slowly thought. And then it turned out that we got worded, the Russians stopped, the boats, at the point of quarantine. and I said, can we agree that we should back off? We should back off. And Curtis them, he said, no way, we've got to teach them a lesson that they're messing with us. They have to have something to remember.

We need some surgical strikes on Russia. It doesn't have to be population-oriented, but we need to. to make it painful. And I said, but that leads us back into, well, they think that this is just the beginning of Armageddon. We simply haven't had a discussion. We have no communication channel to deal with that. It doesn't make sense.

It seems to me backing off for now and letting the discussions continue, how to we avoid this. being the preference. And all the generals agreed, and the one that had called his wife, pushed the button his age, came in saying, call Mary back, tell her, unload the char. But you also made a suggestion that if you hit Moscow,

there wouldn't be anybody to negotiate with. And further, if you let it, It leak to the Russians that you wouldn't hit Moscow. Maybe they wouldn't hit Washington. And everybody in the room just love that. And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically back them into a corner where you say, what would be your prime target first? And then they say, Moscow.

And then you say, oh, if it's Moscow, then you can't talk to anybody in Moscow. There's nobody to negotiate. Let's be going through them. Because I said it's madness. You don't, if you're going to start something. and you need to stop. In that system, there's only one point of decision. If you hit Moscow, there's no one to talk to.

And then that's at that point, right, Lamey storms out and gets all angry. Is that right? Yeah, no, he literally got up, you know, slammed his papers down. I can't, I'm not going, I refuse to run with this. But I have to show you, I did not buckle. No, I know you didn't. Now, he had, by the way, just before that, raised the warning level to Defton 2. And it was not approved by the president.

Really? He did it. Unapproved, he raised the warning level of Defton too. Well, he seemed to have that power. I mean, we were surprised, but anyway, he may have had that power. Interesting. Anyway, I mean, when I look back and think, Jesus, and think, Jesus, you know, I stood in the way of this historic,

bigger bomb, the way. I mean, he could have stood up and tried to beat me up. I mean, he's that kind of person. When he stormed out, with a relief to the whole group. But it was the first in a series of evident clashes between him and JFK. It was personal. Somehow it all radiated. This is not about Russians only.

Something was going on in his head. We learned later about some of the other things. And you had the Bay of Pigs before that as well, which is this crucial kind of juncture where, you know, I think actually Eisenhower kind of left his second term, slightly skeptical of Dulles. I think initially he was willing to kind of go along with his plans. And JFK didn't quite know what to think.

And after the Bay of Pigs, it was really this clear rupture where you had the kind of CIA sort of, you know, quote unquote deep state. And they had sort of their own plans and they really wanted to oust Castro and Guevara. And then you had JFK and he felt like this whole thing was just botched. and they send these Cuban exiles in there to kind of create this revolution, but it's kind of half done, and the exiles are actually left kind of isolated,

doesn't quite work out. And then you have this rift where you have people like Curtis LeMay and Alan Dulles in complete loggerheads with JFK. JFK gets angry. He says, I want to scatter the CIA to the winds. President's saying you're going to bring the CIA into a thousand pieces.

Is that roughly right? Yeah, that's right. So this was the president, of this, that period, to what became a flash over how do we respond when we have an excuse. And Curtis LeMay said, at least let me send my bombers after some strategic facilities of the Russians.

But how do you sort out, for the Russians' point of view, bombers coming at us, we don't know their trajectory, but you can't study that. It's not like a missile, you know. Once it's fire, you know where it's going. So, high risk. And I said,

this doesn't make sense. So everybody agreed except personally, and he blew up when he thought he was going to dominate. Well, I mean, I didn't know that this was a moment of history. And that somehow

So my argument is one, but on the other hand, I thought this is why Maximar sent me down here. Well, that seems, it's such an active genius to him, on his part, to call you in as a 27-year-old, to stagnate these sort of more aggressive, you know, guys like Curtis LeMay. And you think of the way Robert McNamara is depicted in like, you know, Arrell Morris's fog of war just as an example. And he's seen as this sort of warmonger. you know, cuts completely against that. Back to Mer, do you mean to say that instead of killing 100,000 burning it at 100,000

Japanese civilians in that one night, we should have burned to death a lesser number or none, and then had our soldiers across the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in the tens of thousands? Is that what you're proposing? Yeah, yeah. No, his instruction, he said, these guys are coming in that room, and several of them have sidearms that are fully loaded with the... the safety off. Oh, my God.

They're hot to go. Said your tax is lower the temperature. Yeah, wow. And see if you can't stretch it out. Give us time to work something out. What foresight on his part.

Johnston Island was the center of launch and experimental activity for the 1962 high altitude weapon effects testing termed Operation Fishbowl. Running from April to October of 1962, Operation Dominic was a classified American program conducting 31 nuclear test explosions in the Marshall Islands. These tests were designed to study the effects of nuclear detonations in high altitudes,

in space and near space. One of these tests, Starfish Prime, created an electromagnetic pulse that extended over 1,400 kilometers, knocked out streetlights, triggered burglar alarms, and caused electrical surges in nearby Hawaii. It also produced an artificial aurora visible from Hawaii to New Zealand, and it even created a man-made radiation belt similar to the Van Allen belt that destroyed multiple satellites. The last few tests of this series were the Blue Gill tests, which involved a unique X-ray-based missile defense system, and Harold was put in charge of doing all. of the cost assessments for this test.

Tell us about the Blue Gill triple prime test. Well, I arrived in Washington summer of 62. In 61, there were two high-level tests of an incoming missile and an interceptor fired up to see if they could stop it. Those two tests failed. Summer of 62 I arrived, and first I'm in the middle of this missile crisis, and then before it's barely over how would you set up a small group

that will give you the people to devise the outlines of an anti-missile system so that we can start anticipating for the future. said, yeah, that's something that DARPA should do with a bastard. And they said, no, no, but what is a concise top. Back of the envelope calculation, what should be the elements of it? What would it cost? And how much would it cost for the enemy to upset it? I said, okay, I've taken it on.

And I got that assignment. I'm thinking, holy cow, this is huge. And they gave me, you know, these people and the joint chiefs of staff in the Replications evaluation group, who am I talking to these guys? Missile defense was a major priority for the United States in the heart of the Cuban missile crisis. While American offensive nuclear capabilities were ahead of. the Soviets, the U.S. still didn't have precise ways of defending against a nuclear attack.

But there were some novel ideas in missile defense at the time. In 1961, the Rand Corporation wrote a report called Some New Considerations Concerning the Nuclear Test Ban, which highlighted the susceptibility of the U.S. ICBM reentry vehicles to high-energy x-rays. To say this is a piece of steel, and it's in now, out of space if you impinge high energy x-rays on this side. So what that does is blows chunks off the inside at hypersonic speeds. This novel insight made its way into the Operation Dominic Marshall Islands tests.

Here's where it gets interesting. These x-ray emissions could also take out surrounding UFOs. So I just got that going and test number three in that series. then. October was a success. If I remember the days it was while we were busy with Cuba. Yeah, it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis, actually the Blue Guil Triple Prime. So it was October of 1962, right? So I got a report because I'm in charge of this new project, the same report that went to JFK. Now, you can assume when you get in JFK, it was read by McGeorge Bundy. That's his job. And I knew if it must have been read by Macamara and John McNaught, the General Counsel, they were all interactive.

And almost certainly, LBJ, because of Vice President anyway, lo and behold, they dashed down. I said, wait a minute, I'm puzzled here in what the report you've given me, you have videos of taking down this incoming missile with especially enhanced x-ray projection system. But when you did that, you notice that there had been some object that had appeared on the screen and joined and tagged along following the incoming missile down. By the way, can I just interject?

Because for me, and I kind of got my dad a little up to speed on the whole, why is Congress pursuing non-human intelligence? Why are they passing whistleblower legislation? And so when we started to talk about this,

so he says there's this orb around the missile. Yeah. And I'm like, so didn't you think that was weird? And I realized that, actually, I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them that they didn't, they knew it wasn't Russian.

They knew it wasn't, in those days, it was never going to be Chinese. They knew it wasn't a threat. So, dad said, yeah, we called it to tag along. A tag along, like, didn't you ask what it was? And he's sort of replied in such a way that I realized, nobody asked any questions. at that time. And they were probably encouraged not to ask any questions.

When I saw this object, which I called a tag along. That's what you would call them tag alongs. Wow. What else? So that it's so casual that you just call them taggolons. I think they were so inured to seeing them.

They were like, you know, it was a tagalop. The UFO nuclear connection was a complete open secret among top military brass in the 50s and 60s. In a 1952 look magazine article titled The Hunt for the Flying Saucer, Chief UFO investigator for the Air Force, Captain Edward J. Rupelt, is quoted saying that many of the sightings reported

had originated at one atomic weapons-related site or another, all around the country. In fact, while the Operation Dominic tests were going on in 1962, an Avco-Mark 4 re-entry vehicle attached to an Atlas 8F missile was being tested at Cape Canaveral in the Atlantic Missile Range in September. This is the footage that was taken from that test. At the 4-minute and 42nd mark in the video, an object appears to phase itself into existence alongside the re-entry vehicle,

which is traveling at 20,000 feet per second, or Mach 18. The official U.S. Air Force NASA Post-Flight Report even states that the object's quote-unquote origin or identification could not be determined. The very next month after this Atlas test at Cape Canaveral, the Atomic Energy Commission conducted the Blue Gill Triple Prime test in October of 1962 in the Marshall Islands. The point is, this was the backdrop for the Blue Gill tests, one in which the military, scientific, and political elite in America were well aware of the connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons.

Anyway, when they... when the incoming missile reaction to this blast of x-ray, at that moment, the report said this appeared to knock down this device, they called it. I said the tag alarm. And so I got really, I didn't react to it with shock. I thought, let's find out what that was. And was there a recovery? Yes, the Navy had recovered but fell.

Tell me about it. Oh, we can't do that. You have need to know about the incoming missile and the test, but not about the tag alarm. Why not? Just to be clear, you've got all the cue clearances. Right, not some of them. You've got all the cucasinses.

Yeah, well, including. And they say, no, you don't need to know. Why? Well, I had a blanket, besides top secret and all that stuff. I had presidential clearance for the highest level stuff that comes to the president. I mean, I hadn't been given everything, but especially that, they gave me a blanket cuchnerance, cures for any nuclear weapons. Why there was that separate?

because that was managed by the Atomic Energy Commission. That was in law separate. But it's so interesting because you hear that UFO secrecy was sort of bound up in atomic secrecy in the Atomic Energy Commission. The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy in some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets. And you don't even have access to the UFO stuff. with all of your cue clearances.

Two KC-135 aircrafts in proximity of the test were gathering footage. Australian intelligence analyst Jeffrey Krookshank, who's done the most in-depth analysis of this test, calls these two pieces of footage, Kettle 1 and Kettle 2. A bright, fiery object tumbles out from within the nuclear fireball. You believe that that is some kind, of craft. Just like the one that was following the Atlas 8F test,

but this time it was a real warhead. You can see clearly from the Kettle 1 footage of the nuclear blast, an unidentified flying object tumble out of the nuclear fireball. The official report written about this test at the time was written by the Flight Dynamics Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. The report tries to explain the presence of this second thermal source in the footage, quote unquote, there is no evidence to indicate that even the closest pod was ever immersed in the fireball, so it definitely wasn't one of the instrumentation pods on the missile.

If that's not weird enough, these videos were declassified to the public in 1998. At the Declassification Review, the Defense Special Weapons Agency, led by Dr. Byron L. WristVet, applied a large white triangle to the footage, sanitizing it, right where you can see the object tumbling out of the plume in the kettle one footage. There's well-known animosity between Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore Labs. Lawrence Livermore ran one aircraft. Los Alamos ran the other. The reason why the kettle one footage was declassified in kettle two wasn't,

was simply a personal difference in what should remain classified and what shouldn't. Then on October 21st, 2023, when Jeffrey Krookshank sent a mandatory a declassification review request to the Department of Energy asking them to declassify this kettle two footage which had been sanitized. The Department of Energy responded saying that they were unable to locate the footage. They were literally saying they lost the footage of one of their most important high altitude nuclear tests. And maybe all you need to know is that Blue Gill Triple Prime is the only one of the Operation Fishbowl nuclear tests where any portion of the released video is still sanitized and classified.

to this day. Sorry, that's classified. And tellingly, look at what happened when a Freedom of Information Act request was sent to the National Nuclear Security Administration generally around these 1962 Operation Dominic tests. The exact request was for all records that quote unquote mention or relate to, Starfish prime, and any of the following, UFO, AP, UAV, AAV, any acronym used by the Atomic Energy Commission at the time for unidentified flying objects.

The National Nuclear Security Administration responded. The letter back in June of 2022 reads, It was determined that an additional review of your case by the subject matter expert with jurisdiction regarding responsive records was required. First of all, who are the subject matter experts on UFOs? Second of all, this seems like a tacit admission that there are responsive records that apply to this Freedom of Information Act request

that specifically ask for information on UFOs. Finally, we have an eyewitness of the Blue Gild Triple Prime Test who is alive today, a former Navy sailor named David Noble White Crow. He's spoken to UFO investigator Richard Dolan. And look at what he told Dolan. The witness was a man named David. He was part of what was called Operation Dominic. He was aboard a ship called the USS Finch, 19 miles south, southwest of Johnson Island or Johnson Atoll.

The date is October 26, 1962. At 9.59 a.m., they launched this missile. Suddenly he hears on the loudspeaker, the voice of the ship's captain, saying everyone below deck, other than a few essential personnel. And they're preparing for damage control. After 15 minutes, an officer goes down in there, and he selects about a dozen of these guys, including David. And they're ordered to look directly forward toward the horizon.

and they were not allowed to have any conversation. So after some time, I don't know how long, the officer in charge orders them to look 10 degrees off the starboard bow. So at this point, this is a direct quote from David. I wrote this entire thing down. He said to me, lo and behold, what appeared in the sky, what I saw was a huge cigar-shaped object coming toward us at 10 degrees and about 15 to 20 degrees off the horizon.

And what about the most senior official present at Operation Blue Gilles Triple Prime? If you're a head honcho and you see a UFO tumble out of the sky, surely you can't just engage in business as usual. Well, the logs of a nearby Navy ship, the USS Summit County, on 26 October 1961, refer to a S-O-P-A, or a senior officer present afloat being on board the ship. That officer was General Alfred Starboard, the Joint Task Force 8 commander of Operation Dominic. He was positioned around 15 nautical miles from surface zero of Blue Gill Triple Prime,

which is the closest allowable distance by the range safety officer. William Ogle, the Los Almos J. Division weapons design chief, was General Starboard's deputy for Operation Dominic. Ogle writes that General Starboard left Johnston Island at 4 a.m., the night of Operation Bluegill Triple Prime. Starboard went from the deck of the Summit County ship to taking off on a jet from Johnston Island in under four hours.

There were still very important tests to go, but Starboard apparently needed to leave immediately. Maybe because of this successful UFO tag-along shootdown. Well, what they said is that your project designation was this, you know, anti-ballistic missile. But we didn't anticipate this unidentified object

but it's not part of your designation. So I said, that's bullshit. So I said, I need to know what you learned. Now, I'm sure in different words, that's what came out of the White House, to

the people running the test who were under the jurisdiction of the Automic Energy Commission. under Lawrence Gies, who was in charge of all this stuff. He was head of the Albuquerque Division of the Atomic Energy Commission, but he was running everything that, he obviously saw everything that had to do with Los Alamos and high-level tests.

And he's randomly, Jeff Bezos' maternal grandfather through adoption. Amazing. Yeah. It explains a lot. The Baylor's talked about in some of his earlier reminiscences to be for us. He spent all his summers with his grandfather. Interesting. Really?

Yes. Ah. Yes. The grandfather had a farm. Ah. So I'm sure he had several summers of space. And look what's out there. And now he's got blue origin.

It's so fine. It's just another point in the direction that rocketry is not what it. seems. Right. So two things happen. I pressed hard. You have to let me know what took place. So they said, well, for that, you have to come down to Los Alamos. You pressed hard with Lawrence Geis, and he said, I want to know. I didn't know with him that I was talking about. Okay, but somebody at the Atomic Energy Commission. I said, you know, I need to know. I'm going to decide what I need to know. Just to back up. So you go out to Los Alis.

You get briefed, you meet Lawrence Keys, and like literally a couple of weeks later, suddenly JFK, LBJ and their teams are going to Los Alamos. Wow. So I asked the question, Dad, how often does a president of the United States go to Los Alamos? The answer is never. So what was so extraordinary that they all suddenly rush out there? And this is what you have great insight into. It was about the tag along. That's what they wanted to know about.

They weren't all fascinated by the test. By the tag along itself. So when you came out two weeks before them, what did you find? What did they tell you? I met Lawrence of Geese. He said, I have this letter saying that I can brief you. I said, thank you. because I'm really, he said, well, test details are controlled by naval intelligence.

It was interesting, he said, they don't share everything with the Navy Department. They are an autonomous entity. They are more secure than any other intelligence agency. It's the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S. in the 1890s. Yeah, well, they said, just be. be aware, the mighty CIA is not on their fully approved list to circulate. So I can talk about that on another occasion, but anyway, so I said, well, what am I here to find out?

He said, well, he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down. I'm looking at, you know, the round rock, you know. So you're looking at like anomalous material? Yeah. Debris. Yeah. But debris or images?

Debris. Wow. No, he said handling. Wow, that's amazing. I lost all of us. I was sold by the noise. Yeah, put the stuff in your hands, play with it. See what it feels like.

What did it feel like? It felt weird because it didn't feel anything we know. What color was it? What's the color of something in space? Was it heavy? When third? If you had been there without knowing how it was retrieved, would you think that it was at all?

different than like random rocks or something. He didn't know how it was retrieved. He was, you know, but he said, no, this is some of, he said, I have it on my desk just, you know, as an example. I mean, he didn't say it from visitors,

but, I mean, whatever reason he had it there. Did it, was it admitting alpha, beta, gamma radiation, anything like that? I don't know, I don't know if he, he must have known it was safe. I mean, had all this instrumentation around.

Anyway, so I, you know, I just, what have we learned? Because it does pertain to designing a missile system of what kinds of things can interfere or might emulate. We just need to know more. Who else is studying this? We need to know about knowledge in other quarters, China or wherever Russia. We feared Russia to science more than China at that time.

Anyway, you can explain, though, that this is not the first case. Other unidentified objects or phenomena, there's a history. Now, he didn't go into the history with me. He just said, do your research. I said, so you're telling me anyway, but the Navy says I can't know, yes. He said yes, but probably you saw the original,

My bet is that that part of the test, the video will have been scrubbed, which was. And he repeated, that's Navy Intelligence, they're another, they live in their own world. Sometimes they think they're even more powerful than we are, but... Do they still live in their own world? Yes. That's what everybody says. There are a few key details of this story that fill in some gaps that Harold relayed to Pippa before he passed. Malmgram confirmed that the entire Bluegill shootdown was an attempt to down a UFO.

Malmgram explicitly told this to Pippa, his daughter, and Jeffrey Krookshank. He also told this to Senate intelligence staffer Kirk McConnell, who I interviewed. What Momgren reported that he'd been told. directly by Bissell is that we downed a UFO that was monitoring closely monitoring that test and it tumbled into the ocean and that the Navy picked it up. So the American military knew they could bait UFOs with nukes and destabilized their flight paths with EMPs. See, EMPs disrupt local magnetic fields. It would even locally disrupt the magnetosphere of the Earth. If you're flying at incredible speeds in a UFO, you probably

need to use some form of quantum sensing. This would allow you to use the magnetosphere of the Earth in order to navigate. Birds even do this. They use avian cryptochromes to quantum sense the magnetic field of the Earth and navigate home. This form of precision sensing would be necessary in order to navigate a UFO. So when you disrupt the local magnetic field, you could cause a UFO to spin out, lose control, and drop out of the air. Also, UFO propulsion likely requires megavolt, range electricity, an extremely strong electric field strength over long periods of time, which would require a power source that far surpasses traditional fuel or batteries. I think UFOs have a nuclear propulsion source.

If the X-ray-induced shockwave from the Blue Gill payload would disrupt the plutonium pit of an incoming nuclear warhead, it would also probably disrupt the power source of a UFO. The second missing detail here is that when Harold was holding the UFO pieces, Lawrence Geis had given him, they seemed to telepathically communicate with him. He heard words in his head when he felt the pieces. This is a very common trope in UFO world when it comes to people handling material firsthand. Malmgram forgot the exact words, but he felt like they were important, and that the material may have implanted ideas in his subconscious.

He also apparently thought that this was a test that Lawrence Geis had given him. He wanted to see if Harold would have this mental reaction to the pieces. Harold apparently passed. Once Harold passed Lawrence Geiss's test and realized there was far more to this tag-long UFO phenomenon than met the eye, Malmgram had clearly graduated from his role as the missile cost assessment guy. He needed to get fully read in. That's when he received a full briefing on otherworldly technologies by Richard Bissell. Who is Richard Bissell?

Okay, so a few months after this series of episodes, Missile, prices, Los Alamos. Richard Bissell called me up and said, I'd like to spend some time talking to you. Maybe Friday afternoons after work

would be good. I said, sure. I knew who he was. He was deputy director of CIA, and he was in the news a lot. because he had been the one who helps church works develop the U-2. In Area 51 at the time was an atomic testing site.

He thought it would be a good idea to test the U-2 basically right next door. Yeah. So, listen, I knew he was at the center of all the scientific technology stuff. I didn't know at that time his ill fortune was that he was in charge of the invade Cuba. Bay of Pigs operation too. Anyway, you know, I knew he was somebody a considerable scope of knowledge and obviously strong enough to run

a big part of the empire of CIA. So I sat down, he brought a bottle of whiskey out and said, we don't have to drink all of a mystery. He said, I'm talking to everyone around you. You were one of the race kids, but I was told you were the youngest because you came in a little bit after the others, and also that most of them were four or five years older. But you were the star in terms of agility and the ability to work with the top level of people without,

friction. And otherwise, you're not in an obnoxious, you know, smart ass. So he said, you're almost certainly on a curve where you'll continue to be at that level. So there are things you need to know. And then he went into quite a bit, but it was not only about what we still make sure. still were calling UFOs at that time. But it was about CIA operations worldwide, the complexity to times when the president and CIA were not working in concert.

But it happens when you have a big system like that and develops a life of its own. What did he say about UFOs and other words? other world technology, and then what did he say about CIA's, the global nature of their operation? Well, it all went down something to, they were opposed to anything which threatened their control, and these unidentified UFOs, we didn't have the European word yet. They presented forces that were beyond CIA's knowledge or control. And they interfered perhaps with what CIA was doing with private industry. There was a lot of interaction between Lockheed Martin and CIA.

They would show up around specific atomic testing or around specific technology development. or many types of technology development. I mean, so it's almost like the UFOs are more, it's not just the atomic connection, they're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech development. That's at the heart of it.

Yeah, which is, if you read the three body problem by this amazing, you know, Chinese science fiction trilogy. I saw the movie. Yeah, it seems like something like that is almost the case, according to Richard Biss. Wow. Yeah. And so what does he say? So he briefs you on quote-unquote other-world technologies. That, to me, belies almost human knowledge of these technologies, not just like these things are randomly showing up when we're making advanced technology. He said, this is real. We don't know these phenomena. We don't know these phenomena

Also, we don't know what the Russians and Chinese and anyone else knows. That itself is threatening. Now, at that time, China was not as threatening to us as Russia. We always overrated Russia, in my judgment, and we underrated the Chinese upset. to focus in on something very specific, which was the technology race. But anyway, he just wanted me to know

that there were all these conflicting forces of power in play and that they had influence on leadership in many countries, not just Washington. And it tends to run deep into local politics, depending on where the interests were. Now, he didn't mention Arkansas, but then I reflect back, it probably was on his mind.

Why am I not on the front page of the paper at Ryan Airport or any other? the airport with a load of dope, with a load of guns. Did Richard Bissell know what was going on all along? That the Blue Gill test was actually always intended to be a directed energy-based UFO shootdown? Well tellingly, Harold told Pippa on his deathbed and off-air that the CIA and Atomic Energy Commission got the very idea of shooting down UFOs with directed energy from an extraterrestrial being that survived the Roswell crash in 1947. This being was apparently the sole survivor of that crash.

Harold even told Pippa that later in his career, he saw the video of this creature being interviewed. And there's a direct link between the Blue Gill Triple Prime tests and Star Wars, or the Strategic Defense Initiative, that later took place in the 80s. You see, the Blue Guil Triple Prime test inspired Edward Teller's X-ray-based Excalibur designs, which formed the basis of Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative, popularly known as Star Wars. Star Wars involved a massive network of

directed energy weapons or missile defense. It also involved satellite tracking, an immaculate constellation, if you will, for UFO shootdowns and tracking. This, of course, begs the question, was Star Wars always dual use and intended for shooting down and quarantining UAP. And if these very concepts came from the sole surviving being from the Roswell crash, it begs the very important question, are we involved in some sort of bizarre extraterrestrial proxy war? Ultimately, one can only speculate. But it is important to note that before he briefed Malmgren, Richard Bissell had to have known about all of this. Remember, at the time he was deputy director of plans for the entire CIA, and he would go on to become deputy director.

for the entire organization, it's number two. So he was likely well aware of this interview of the surviving being at Roswell. Bissell also founded Area 51 in 1955, and he'd strategically placed it at the Nevada test site where hundreds of atomic tests were occurring in the early 50s.

So he had to have known about the UFO nuclear connection. Bissell likely also understood the secret UFO-related intentions of the Bluegill tests all along. But Harold goes deeper. He implies that Bissell knows about this other layer of reality, a form of sort of extraterrestrial exoplanics that needed to be managed by elements of the U.S. government for decades.

Do you think Richard Bissell sort of knew that you were, you were sort of an heir to him and sort of a more, like, spiritual sense or something? Very spiritual. I'm very spiritual. came for someone somehow. Connected to what? We're both happening

the forces. Have you looked for people like that? Yeah, I'm reading about them all those times. Yeah, what else did Richard Bissell tell you? He said this didn't start last week. This has been going on. He mentioned that in 1933

in Magenta. He did? Yes. Richard Bissol. mentioned the 1933 Magenta crush. That's amazing. Exactly. That is such corroboration because that is a highly conflicted, you know, account. 1933 was the first recovery in Europe in Magenta, Italy.

I fully trust David Grush, but that's amazing that there's some corroboration from back then. He mentioned it. Wow. Italian government moved it to a secure air base in Italy for the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 19, 44, 1945, and you know, the Pope Pius, the 12th backchanneled that. So the Vatican was involved? Yeah, and told the Americans what the Italians had, and we ended up scooping it. So he said this, yeah, he said this did not begin.

And the, you have needed to know the background. How did it end up that Truman transferred that object from Italy? the steps getting there was arranged by Alan Dulles. But that went back to what Tipper mentioned. And he said the steps that Alan Dulles helped with the crash retrieval. And remember, Alan Dulles, and so John Foster Dulles and Alan Dulles are twins. Yeah. And John Foster Dulles is running the OSS, the precursor, to U.S.

intelligence out of Switzerland. And then I asked, I said, Dad, why was he running it out of Switzerland? How that does that happen? And he said, well, everybody knew that he did it deliberately so that he would be beyond the reach of U.S. law. Let me explain.

After all of these events, a few years back, when I was still an official in the office of the trade representative. Well, I was the principal. I was invited by, you know, Switzerland doesn't have a president. The leader revolves around the canton leaders. But whoever was the leader that year,

I visited the government about several matters and they said we'd like to see the office of Alan Dulles when he lived here. So I said, oh, it would be fun to be a beautiful apartment overlooking the river. And we got talking, I said, how do you explain why he chose to be here? He said, oh, that's simple. He told us when he got permission to maintain a very active office here that as long as he was in Switzerland, no American law could reach him

as to something he did that was illegally, immoral, or otherwise, in the United States. So he said he was here all the time, and it was to allow him a free hand to do the most terrible things, if needed. Okay, that's understandable. He was a creepy guy.

Now, going back to 1933, the relationship needs to be uncovered between Angleton's father, Engleton, and the Knights of Malta. Wow. Because the Knights of Malta said there was long historical connection with the Vatican.

And indeed have this special diplomatic status. You know, you can be, you can have an international passport for the night. I forget how it's a something, it's a sovereign state for a handful of people.

Yes. But it's always connected with the Vatican. According to multiple accounts, including UFO whistleblower David Grush, a disc-like object measuring roughly 10 to 12 meters in diameter, came down near Magenta in Lombardy, Italy in June of 1933. 1933 was the first recovery in Europe. Under Benito Mussolini's fascist regime, a total media blackout was imposed throughout the

Stefani News Agency. Telegrams threatened severe penalties for any reporters who deviated from a government-ordered cover story attributing the event to a meteor. Despite the censorship, a special investigative body known as Gabonetto or RS 33 formed to study the craft with high-level figures such as Mussolini, Air Marshal Italo Balbo, and Nobel laureate and radio pioneer Marconi believed to have been involved. Testimony suggests that the downcraft and possibly two recovered bodies were taken to the SIAI-Marchetti private aerospace hangers for intensive analysis. This secret research group reportedly drew up a nine-step protocol to manage

the Magenta Crash and any similar future incidents. The instructions included immediate site containment, arrests of all witnesses, and thorough disinformation campaigns to quell public attention. Sounds very similar to what happened in the United States after Roswell. Marconi, long fascinated by extraterrestrial possibilities, clashed with Mussolini's insistence that the subject must be of terrestrial origin. Some documents on later family confirmations indicate Marconi genuinely believed the craft could be non-human.

In the late 1930s, Pope Pius XIUS the 12th became aware of the magenta retrieval, reportedly fearing that any recovered technology might fall into Nazi hands once Italy allied with Germany. Through discrete channels, the Pope quietly informed the allies about the craft's existence and storage location. This back channel intelligence set the stage for the Office of Strategic Services, America's premier wartime intelligence gathering program,

and the predecessor to the CIA in World War II, to intervene in northern Italy as the war approached its end. Working under a secret project called McGregor, OSS operatives targeted advanced access technology, including the rumored crashed UFO. By 1945, the Americans had reportedly transferred the Italian UFO to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio for further study. Many of the top Nazi scientists as a part of Operation Paperclip

that the Allies had exfiltrated also made their way to write Patterson. to work on the Magenta Craft. Malta, as a sovereign territory with diplomatic immunity, would be the perfect international guardians of UFO secrecy. Initially, when Harold said the Knights of Malta were deeply embedded in the UFO story, I had no idea what to think. It sounded like a plot line from a Dan Brown or Umberto Echo novel.

Secret society associated with the Vatican and the sovereign state of Malta governs UFO secrecy. Go figure. But not only were Hugh Engleton, and James Jesus Angleton Knights of Malta. And remember, James Jesus Angleton seemed to be responsible for a lot of counterintelligence around UFOs that came out from the 50s to the 80s.

But the bizarre Knights of Malta UFO connection runs even deeper after further research. Colonel Philip J. Corso, later famous for his claims regarding reverse engineering alien materials at the Pentagon and his book The Day After Roswell, served as a high-ranking intelligence officer in Italy during the post-war period. In fact, he was a very important.

the personal liaison to the future pope. He was also a knight of Malta. He was also a main figure in Operation Paperclip and helped create the quote-unquote rat lines, exfiltrating Nazi scientists in technology. In fact, many Nazi scientists specifically specializing in exotic propulsion made their way to write Patterson Air Force Base after World War II. Perhaps the most powerful general at the time, General Douglas MacArthur and his whole intelligence staff, Knights of Malta. Many of his staff displayed an unusual interest in the possibility of a quote-unquote interplanetary war, and they framed alien-related eschatology in the exact same terms Corso did.

During a 1955 speech at West Point, General MacArthur told assembled cadets, the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the Earth must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets. Chief OSS member and another CIA founder, Wild Builders, Donovan, who journalist Chris Sharp notes, was likely not only involved in the magenta crash retrieval, but in setting up original protocols for UFO crash retrievals, was also a Knight of Malta. Atomic Energy Director turned CIA director John McCone, later CIA director Bill Casey,

Knights of Malta. Remember that FDR was responsible for the communications with the Vatican about the crashed Magenta craft. Well, President Roosevelt's Vatican envoy, Myron Taylor, also a Knight of Malta. Maybe religious studies professes. Diana Walsh Baselka, who has visited the Vatican Archives and speaks with conviction that the Catholic Church knows more than meets the eye about UFOs isn't so crazy after all. Maybe she's spot on. And look at the group that are supposedly engaging in UFO crash retrievals today. J-Soc or the Joint Special Operations Command. According to journalist Seymour Hersh, one of the modern heads of J-Socke, General Stanley McChrystal, and many of the members of J-Socke themselves, are all

Knights of Malta. Does the Dewee currently work with JASOC? We work with all of the security entities around the federal government. Do you guys work with JASOC? Yes or no? Yes, we do. Okay. There are Templars at the Vatican.

It's a residue of the truth or the myth, whatever, knights and the Templars. But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the U.F. story as well. Well, what I'm saying is, yeah, they did because Angleton was there. So for context of the audience, James Jesus Angleton

was sort of one of the original founders of the CIA. Dulles was sort of as a mentor to him. He was a skull and bones kid and ends up in Italy and he's kind of this eccentric, debonair, interesting guy who was also really

just good at conniving and lying. And so Angleton's father Hugh Angleton was involved with the Knights of Malta? He was a member. He was a member. And then so he's, wow. So he's involved in the Vatican, which makes it more likely

that James Jesus Angleton probably had something to do with the retrieval of that UFO, the Magenta Crash, which was kept at the Vatican. Yeah. I'm speculating now, but no doubt in my mind about my... You're speculating, but there's so many connections.

There's even a guy named John Warner the 4th. who is the grandson of Paul Mellon and the son of Senator John Warner. And he tells the story where he's three martinis in to, you know, a dinner or whatever with Paul Mellon. And Paul Mellon recalls the story. Paul Mellon is one of the founders of the CIA. And he's with Alan Dulles doing tech retrieval. And specifically, he says, I'm in checklist of Lachia. And I'm standing on top of a saucer with Alan Dulles.

And my grandfather said, look, you know, we were in a facility, a hangar. And we saw a German flying disc. And I said, you know, oh, is that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines? And he laughed and he said, no. Basically implying that it was like this anomalous object. And right there in Czechoslovakia and modern day Poland is this thing called Kamlerstab, where Hans Kammer, the most ruthless Nazi was doing the most kind of black world technology projects, was rumored to be working on flying saucers and there's this rumor of this thing

called the Glaca. And so you have the Hugh Angleton connection, but you also have Dulles and Paul Mellon standing on top of this saucer. And when the magenta object crashed, supposedly there was this partnership where Mussolini went to Hitler and was like, I don't really know what to do with this. Is this yours? And the Hillis said, no, it's not ours, but we should work on it together. We should collaborate. So there's, there is, there are actually a lot of data points around this. You start to build this, this picture up. So Bissell said that too. And the Italians, even to this day,

are amongst the most innovative in defense technology in the world. That's so interesting. So maybe that, do there's some inherited technology or something? Let me tell you one factoid that is not well known in America. When we look at the world,

we say the second most important military force, is the UK, and especially the RAF, but they have really dwindled in importance. And I didn't know this until recently, but I'm somewhat rather actively connected with the military world. I have a book coming out with essays on geosecurity of the last 25 years

that's coming up soon. Amazing. And anyway, no rewrite fees in that book. But one of the people introducing the book was the chief of the Italian Air Force. And I said, that's a little bit odd. And the editor said, no, in the Europe today, the most important Air Force besides the U.S. is the Italian Air Force. I had no idea. Really? So they might be more advanced than meets the eye.

There was more advanced than the rest of them in Europe. Interesting. Yeah, those are news to me. I think of Italian, I guess cars is being fast but unreliable. But, wow, the Air Force. Yeah. Well, Northern Italy has world-class engineering. True.

German-level engineering. And they happen in many fields. And I always thought it was very interesting that after the Second World War, the Germans were prohibited from going into aircraft because the Luftwaffe had been such a threat. And as a result, the Germans specialized in drones. And I got into drone technology about not quite 10 years ago. And the Germans are very strong in that. And I started to also realize how strong Italian engineering. But I think this episode in history is, it's not as well understood as it could be.

And I just wonder, was this part of what drove the decision to create what we now call the Axis? That because the Italians assumed that this super high-tech thing must be German, and that began their dialogue. And as they aligned, that became the Axis. Wow. And then again, back to George C. Marshall and the team that is basically cleaning up after the end of World War II and their recognition that many people have knowledge of very advanced technologies, they must be brought to the United States. And that operation paperclip, period. And again, who's already there?

It's all these cast of characters and where have they been based? Italy. That's amazing. That's so fascinating. Again, there's no proof in that, but there's an interesting line of inquiry. But there's so much corrobority. Now we have Richard Bissell to add to the dullest Paul Mellon story, to add to David Grush's recent testimony.

So we are building up this, you know, important corroborative narrative. I'm just mentioning and passing, you know, this walking stick I have, is from an old shop. It's a old, it's hard, but I was told it was Paul Mellon's bushing stick. No way. That's so interesting. How did you end up with that? Oh, they live in the same part of Virginia. Okay, well.

I didn't know Paul Mellon, but I knew all the people around him, including his wife. Oh, and his personal, I would call him, ran the fox hunt for him and went to care of the horses and you know he had race horses everything that guy became a close pal of mine so i heard all these stories about paul melon so i didn't meet paul mellon but i know more about his life than you would imagine including all his girlfriends oh gosh but i have his working stick it's so interesting that's wow i kind of i'll be i'll be i'll I feel like we should put it in the shot or something. It was sent to me as part of my mission. I still don't know my purpose. Yeah, I'll grab it.

Thanks, Pippa. And so do you think the Knights of Malta play some sort of role in UFOs? And what do you think their role is? Ah. Now you're getting to the heart of the residue of that organization that still exists. What form does it take? No, I don't know I have no idea, but they still have the sovereign state identity. Do you think it goes back to the original Templars?

I don't know. Okay. But how did they get the sovereign state? Vatican must have organized it. They seem to have kind of a lot of top-level business leaders and politicians involved in the Knights of Malta. That's right. So something, yes, it's a secret of society.

I mean, there are all these secret societies. So many things over the years have been attributed to the Council in Foreign Relations. Yes. I was a member of the Council for, I don't know, 50 years. I dropped out recently because they wanted me to keep sending them large amounts of money. I thought, yeah, you know, I've done my, I paid my dues. But when you get back for the Council for Aller Relations, then you dig deeper.

Well, wait a minute, it wasn't really them. It was some of them, select group, through Brown Brothers Herriman that set up CIA, you know, the different groups did different things. and some of the great financial figures were involved with some but not others. It's not very different from the W.E.F. in Switzerland, different group.

But there's a Council of Foreign Relations Knights of Malta connection? No, I would say there's some overlapping membership, but no connection. Anyway, the Council for our relations has been diluted and changed since the days of Second World War and the Cold War. It's now much more diverse and much more defensive of who's ever in power in the White House. I don't know what they're going to do with Trump,

but they have been, they've been, sort of swept along with progressive Democrats. Right. So this is, you just brought this in, this is Paul Mellon's walking stick that you ended up with. I can't verify it, but that's what I was told. These are the rumors.

Does it represent anything? It looks very unique. Well, he has a lot of power. So that was bestowed upon you. What else, what else did Richard Bissell tell you. Well, I mean, I think I've explained, in essence, there are a multiplicity of powers in play at any moment.

And around presidents, they have certain powers, but they are constrained by these other powers. And among them, the intelligence community is very powerful because it has found ways to fund itself and to multiply itself. So you can't look at the budget and say that's what it is. It operates businesses, legitimate and illegitimate. Right. So it's sort of this gangly octopus. It's impossible to really capture.

And so the Russians do this too. And they even do it in overt ways they did. with this group that the leader was assassinated. Pergogian. Oh, Wagner. Wagner Group. Yeah, Pergogian. Yeah.

I mean, that's over it. They do it. Not over it. The Chinese are everywhere doing all kinds of stuff. Even in Manhattan. Yeah, yeah. So when you weigh actions, you have. after taking account what you see and what you don't see, the unseen enemies.

I should have been aware of that when I blurted out some of these comments on UAPs. And I stumbled into contributions. I have no intention of... Have you gotten any backlash? Because you've been saying some remarkable things on Twitter or X rather. Yeah, and I usually get it. So Dad dropped something on Twitter and suddenly my inbox is full. like, full, what people

saying, you know, your dad is breaking the internet. But that seems positive. It's mostly positive? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She calls me from some faraway place. Breaks me up in a morning and she's different hours and

the time you just blew up the internet. I actually, I go up, I said, I'd leave you alone for five minutes. Breaking the internet. I love it. I carefully crafted some backing up language that I was not directly involved with.

UAP research. You said read my words carefully. Nice. Now if you read them carefully, I was not, I was saying it, I was not directed to look at that. It was, but I didn't say that I wasn't aware of it. Yeah. And I knew that eventually the stuff would come out and say, yeah, I knew about that. But I used the words to make it look like I was backing away of speculation, but I didn't do that.

The words didn't suggest I was speculating. I think this is an issue sometimes with people who are high up in government who want to disclose certain things, but don't want to break any sort of relationships they have or oaths they've sworn or clearances they have. where you'll hear David Grush or something, he'll say, this is open source, this is a personal story, and he'll have to caveat constantly with that. And so if you're an average person, you just immediately, your skeptical trigger goes off.

But in fact, he's trying to do you a service and saying, look at this, this is open source. I just don't want to end up under the gun here because I don't want to end up in jail. You're giving your enemies fodder. The thing to keep in mind, as in the research I've done too, is what you find is a lot of this cast of characters, including James Jesus Angleton, who went on to become the key person at the CIA,

they all seem to have been part of General George C. Marshall's team at the end of the Second World War. They're all involved with the Marshall Plan somehow or another, including Kennedy and Forrestall for a period, are part of that. And so difficult to prove, but strange that they all seem to be connected to this subject. Well, Forrestal was supposedly on this majestic 12. Who knows how much of the majestic 12 is true, but this sort of elite military and intelligence advisory board for Truman and Eisenhower. And then George Marshall also, there's this thing called the Battle of Los Angeles in 1942, where UFO shows up and, like, fly. lies down the coast and George Marshall was brief to that.

And so, very interesting. Okay, so you have, and then the other connections I think that are important to make with the Marshall plan is that was kind of immediately after these tech retrieval programs in Europe. So the Nazis had all this advanced technology and you had TICOM and ASOS. One was, you know, signals intelligence. The other was, you know, atomic intelligence. and it was trying to retrieve their most exotic technology. And if there was anything, you know, involving UFOs there, that would sort of be bound up in it.

One of my forces friends when I came to Washington was an attorney named Tom Farmer. And Tom and I played tennis together. But it turned out Tom had been General Counsel of CIA. And he'd been, again, with the guys doing the Marshall Plan. Well, I was going to say, it turned out he was involved in the project called Paper Flip for picking Germans. And a reason why he was born in Berlin of a father who was a U.S. diplomat, but he spoke

German fluently. So, now, it never dawned on me when I was my friend that started asking you about papers, but I learned later he knew everything. He was one of the people saying yes for him, no for him, you know. Do you believe that advanced technology has benefited from retrieved, unidentified aerial objects? So this would be like the Philip Corso Day After Roswell narrative? The answer I would have to give is yes in two ways. In one way, we have learned that some types of propulsion, for example,

exists that we never envisaged, never conceived. The second way is that they have revealed a higher level of knowledge than anything we have on Earth. And we don't control it. Now, we only recently even where is it coming from. We got this new telescope looking out,

where are they? But then we have one revelation by the oceanographer in the last few days who says they are not China, they are not U.S., they are not extraterrestrial, meaning they're either here already under the water or subterranean, that's where they are. Yes.

And then Dave Gras, he says, talks about, is it interdimensional? Yes. There's suddenly, and one sort of wonders like, is this semantics? Like, if you ask officially, are there extraterrestrials? The answer is no, because extraterrestrial means off planet. But it doesn't include if it's interdimensional, if it's ocean-based, are we actually all talking at cross-purposes? Well, it's the reason the all-domain anomalous research office, which is headed up by Kirkpatrick,

who has all these sort of, you know, and we should get into the atomic ties to the UFO question. He has all, you know, this whole history and, you know, atomic research. He was at Oak Ridge. And he always rests on we have no hard evidence of extraterrestrial life. But of course, you know, you have these anomalous things. You haven't done an proper analysis on them. You don't know what they are. You haven't classified them.

And so you just, you use, that's like this straw manning way of, you know, explaining the thing away. And for an average person who's not really into the topic, you go, oh, this is a fit. is saying that there's no extraterrestrial. Yeah, but it's always extraterrestrial. So is there anything else that Richard Bissell told you? I hate to, you know, harp on that one interaction, but it just, it's so fast, so you have this guy who's number two at the CIA,

he set up Area 51, and he's briefing you on other world technologies. Does he say anything else? Well, he didn't admit to or talk about bad things that had happened. He didn't want to get into a discussion about the Bay of Pigs. He didn't raise

incidents where we have overturned governments. Somehow he avoided that stuff. But I think most of it was about if you work at the leadership level, whether you're a leader or a leader or a guide to a leader, you've got to keep it in play in their minds conflicting forces.

And a lot of these forces are not on any legal boxes of who has authority over what. You can't do a diagram that is meaningful for the entire U.S. government. because a lot of it is other power networks. Well, there's Michael Turner, who's been, I mean, he was a lynchpin for three companies at least.

And, you know, he blocked everything. Suddenly he's very unusual. Someone with that much power, usually you have to buy them off. You give them something else more important. You promote them. someone asked me once, what's the most effective brain to get rid of a major enemy? I see you promote them. Give them something more visible where the ego can be pacified.

I did it more than months. You don't want them, that's funny. You don't want them licking their wounds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd rather have them happy and not focused on whatever they were focused on. I've never been publicly pugnacious, but there were times, well, I think Pippa had breakfast with one member of the Congress at one time she told me, Dad, I had breakfast with him, and I asked him, how is it? Dad has so much power, but he has no enemies.

Keep him the power. So many enemies. And he said, the only thing he would say is. the rumor is none survived. So whether that's true or not, I cultivated that rumor. I told everybody that's the rumor. Don't ask me.

But everybody is very, very. I think the key here is it's not so much what did Richard Bissell say directly to dad, although that has immense value. It's important to capture this for posterity. but it's also an invitation. You are now part of a network of people.

It will be known that you've been blessed. It will be known not just in our government. It will be known in other governments. It will be known by the Russians. And that network operates for the whole of your life. There are different sources of information about how communication between JFK in Khrushchev was established.

Now, for the average human in the world in which we live, they'd pick up the phone. But number one, Khrushchev's represented central committee. If you were really going to communicate with the central committee, you would use Doblin, the ambassador, who had a direct line, so he would know. So if he didn't serve, I think he may have served us, but we don't know. He didn't disclose.

But I know Dobren, I can tell you about that later, but, I mean, he came to know me. I'm sure that way. But, but. And the American ambassador, was that Walter Stossel or who? I don't know. It didn't matter. The only thing didn't matter was Dubrennan. number one power communication with Moscow.

But that was the official channels. But there seems that there were also unofficial channels. Well, there had to mean. And one of them was, it seems, Norman Cousins, who was against nuclear weapons and somehow was able to pass letters back and forth that reached Christoph. I'm trying to think back, I haven't talked about this before, my first encounter with

Dobrenen, as I said, he arrived in 62, a phenomenon unusual, a member of the Central Committee. And I was attending some months after this, in 63. I went to one of these Washington gala, you know, the White House Pescuro, Roast of the President, or one of those, we have those events. And when you're invited, you get a seat with a name card, you don't sit where you want, you sit where your name card is. So I sat down, this distinguished-looking gentleman sat next to me, and said, hi, I'm Hal Mamban. He said, yes, I know you. I am Ambassador Dobin. So all my alarms went off, that's not accidental.

He chose to sit there, I'm sure. So I'll have to be careful. And he just chatted a friendly way. Your name is well known in Russia long before you're at these heavy levels of decision making. I said, why is that? He said, you are named after your uncle, whose name is identical to mine. He said he was really famous as a chess player, especially among all the security people who were nuts about

and KGB and others about chess, who was the chess champion. And he played many of Russians. So he said, you were identified as the progenyenne of that Harold Malmgren. which in our way of thinking is, much good bloodlines. And so we chatted about that, and how coming to Washington was surprised for me. He said, well, you've landed at the center of everything. I said, yeah, I'm surprised.

He said, yeah, he said, I gather you were in there with the generals. I said, how would you know that? He said, our system is far more thorough. You should be aware of that, than you might imagine. I said, yeah, he didn't ask me about what took place. I stepped to say, you emerged as someone who was able to talk down the most belligerent American military official. about time, or about time anyway.

And so he said, it made you of interest. How did you do that? Well, it's like a good chess player. How did you win? And so later, we had these encounters, I don't know, once a year or something. Unplanned, it was found me. Let's have a check. And he did ask, I have never talked about this.

He didn't ask you one time, why is everyone so excited about these unidentified flying objects? Really? He just innocently. He was in front of pumps. He tells us out of me about anything specific. He was very careful. I said because it's something we don't control.

It's very simple. Whatever it is, we feel threatened because we only feel safe when we are in total control. He said, nations are never in total control. There are always unexpected challenges. I said, yeah, but tell that to somebody in Washington would you? I mean, they understand. not students of history in Washington.

You know, the emergence of new threats, it's not something we easily absorb. It's not our culture. We're either triumphant or not. And winning the Second World War made us feel really superior. So he's He said, there's something there. Remember he said that is dividing your country,

but maybe could unifying other countries. That's the way he said it. And this is about the UFO subject. So extraordinary. Wow. That's... It probed it. I think he was looking for me to say something.

but I was not privy to those letters between JFK and Hussaud. And there are rumors that JFK wanted to do a joint space program with the Soviets around this and used the UFO thing as kind of a unifying, you know, rallying cry or something? Well, he wanted, probably number one reason, that's not being mistaken. It's guided by these events to think it might be us versus them, that this is not Russia or the U.S. So we need an early warning system. Those things that you see are not ours. All right, that makes sense.

How it extended beyond there to the other idea, maybe we should work together. put the swords down and let's come up for the way to develop our futures without being mortal enemies now that switch my understanding was definitely in Kennedy's mind and so

did I see any no I didn't But some people did. The fact that he expressed verbally to a number of the senior people his desire to share our knowledge of UFOs with Russia caused alarm among some officials in Washington. Now, Curtis LeMay definitely. But that was one of many things. JFK and he were fighting about some.

But it seemed to alone people at CIA, you know, some people at the CIA is a big organization. There is this letter that was foiled, used the Freedom of Information Act to get out of the government in 2005. And it's of controversial provenance. So we should caveat that to the audience. But it's a letter from JFK to acting CIA director John McCone after. he had fired Dulles, and he's basically saying, we need to coordinate, I need all of the data on quote unquote unknowns in sensitive airspace from NASA because we need to coordinate better with the Russians so they don't mistake these unknowns as acts of American aggression.

And he's basically saying, I need all the UFO data so I can better coordinate with the Russians and we don't end up in, you know, some horrible, you know, bomb out scenario due to the UFOs. How do we de-conflict? How do we deconcliff? How do we create a regime for deconfliction so that we don't inadvertently fire and it's not the Russians or vice versa? And in the 1971 Salt Treaty. It's written into it.

It's that sort of same language is written in. It's in there. And so do we think that this letter might be real, this 2005 fourier letter or? Bro. Blachman. That's amazing. Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's? death?

This is pure speculation until we see, but do I think so? Yes. I think it was probably the number one issue. Why do you think that? Because from what I have read, not what I know, because I don't know anything about the actual documents sent by JFK to Khrushchev, but what I've read, but what I've read, is that he wanted to talk openly about the UAP phenomenon and the basis for why don't we stop fighting with each other

and join forces with and make peace. And he also wanted to reduce the nuclear arsenal on both sides. Yes. And that was also a threat and challenge to certain part of the community. And Della specifically hated that vis-a-vis China because it was like if we didn't have nukes, they would outman us. Yeah, it was really about numbers. So you think maybe in some of that correspondence it was let's work together on the non-human intelligence or alien issue. It's funny.

Douglas Caddy, who is the lawyer of Howard Hunt. Howard Hunt's this, you know, known CIA longtime spook who shows up in all sorts of, you know, he's like the janitor and Watergate or whatever. It's incredible. And he, Douglas Caddy says, you know, I kept asking Howard Hunt, you know, what was the JFK murder actually about? And he kept giving these kind of deflection answers. And then finally he says it was about the alien presence. Yep. I think it was.

That's fascinating. I think JFK fully knew all about UFOs long before he became president. What gives you conviction in that? Because he was. naval intelligence for a while, he learned most of it from Forrestal. He was in the intelligence. Forrestal was Secretary of the Navy before becoming Secretary of Defense. Yeah, and Forrestal fully briefed him and talks about it.

And he talks about it. You'll have to do with the history, but he was fully briefed by Forrestal. How do we know Forrestal knew about UFOs? because there are tons of rumors. He, you know, managed Admiral Bird who engaged in Operation High Jump, you know, bringing probably like 70 or so ships and 33, I think, you know, airplanes and almost 5,000 men down the coast of Argentina and towards Antarctica. And they reportedly encounter all these flying saucers that are shooting at them with lasers.

But other than that, do we have any real, you know, evidence that Forrestall knew about UFOs? You have to do more research. My research, which tends to be scattered in, until recently I haven't tried to organize it, but I found several references to Poristol, for him going to Porosol with questions and getting answers. Interesting. Well, you know, JFK was also extremely interested in astrophysics at Harvard and was close with Don Mansell, who was this famous UFO debunker, but who admitted to JFK that he held some of the deepest, you know,

clearances across the board, CIA, NSA and Navy. And so maybe there's some sort of connection there. But did you ever speak to JFK about UFOs directly? No. No. My interaction with JFK and Bobby was very limited, but I was somehow part of the clan because Sarge Schreiber, the brother-in-law, was to go between.

He talks to me all the time. Sarge Schreiber proposed me for several different jobs, and I declined each one, but I was accepted in a circle of people. person. But Bobby and Teddy they were consumed with events that seemed to be coming at them faster and faster. If I look back at top management, I would have to say they were operating without an adequate buffer system. So my guess is they were overloaded with stuff and didn't have a way of them. Neither one of them. When you were a senator,

really have a small staff, but you know, you're operating on your own. You don't know how to run an apparatus. Someone like Elvj came in, he ran the whole damn Senate. You know, some multitude of people at low levels. But JFK came in with small limited naval experience, but seemed to be busy with folks. Do you think Forrestall's death had anything to do with UFOs?

So Forrestall was sort of pushed out of his position of Secretary of Defense. Yeah. And he was sort of betting on George Dewey against Truman. And then he ends up in this Navy hospital, Bethesda, Maryland, and he sort of, you know, gets killed by gravity, quote, unquote. It's like mid-writing some Sophocles poem. I think his brother, his brother Harry's Forrestall had met. with him the day before, said he was totally of seen sound mind. Through a window didn't seem to be openable.

That's right. That was the other thing. Yeah, and it was like his bathrobe was like tied to the, I don't know, the whole thing made no sense. So do you think that had anything to do with an interest in UFO subject? Probably. Wow. But I'm not going to speculate.

Yeah. And so after JFK and all these guys, George McBundee, all of his top aides, they go to Los Alamos. They're presumably given the same sort of briefing that you got. Yeah. Do you think he then takes an increased interest in UFOs at all? Yes. And what makes you think that?

I think JFK somehow saw this moment to make world peace. We weren't worried about China at that moment. But why don't we and the Soviets just stop fighting, join forces, explain what we know together, and deal with this force that we don't understand. Yeah, and somehow in that exchange during the crisis itself, there were communications with force stuff. We don't know every word, maybe some of it is recorded

some of it may have been through Dubridden who may have used his lines and he had his method of communication that was theoretically couldn't impregnate probably I've seen to establish a working discussion

between two guys And that's a thread that recurs occasionally. Actually, Gorbachev was being interviewed by Charlie Rose. Yeah. And Charlie is saying, you know, just talking about, you know, you talk to me about your correspondence with Reagan. And Gorbachev goes in a really weird direction that nobody expects. And he says, well, one time we're sitting there, you know, Reagan turns to him and he whispers. He says, if the United States.

were attacked by someone from outer space. Would you help us? I said no doubt about it. He said, we too. So that's interesting. Right now in modern times, we are clearly shooting at these things. The week of the Chinese balloon,

and there were three other unidentified objects that the military said they shot down. And so here's just a very profound question. If this represents higher intelligence, or even just intelligence, let alone higher intelligence, is shooting at it the right way to open the conversation. Number one, number two, generally speaking, you're not supposed to shoot it stuff

if you don't know what it is. And so are we locked into a kind of 1950s thinking about this thing because it's so secret, it's so compartmentalized, it's so dangerous to national security, that no one can even really discuss this. And are we missing something quite profound because we won't even ask the question, why are we shooting at something that we don't understand and might represent intelligence of some kind. Maybe they're sort of waiting, you know, there's one of my favorite quotes, Eden Philpoths, it's like the world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to get sharper.

Totally. And there's something about this bidirectional, you know, if we ascend to a certain level, maybe we can have communion with these things. But it doesn't really make sense for them to show themselves to us until that. Again, regardless of whether it is real, since we can't identify it, what I find, again, interesting to observe is the level of fear that exists, and particularly in that official circles, and amongst militaries, because of the lack of control, that it must be dangerous, it must be a threat. And you will often hear the discussion of there's this thing in our airspace. And I'm like, what if we're in its airspace? Yeah, right, right.

It's just a creative way of thinking. What's the definition of airspace in a world where we have a James Webb telescope that is literally millions of miles away? Yeah. We're probably in a lot of other air spaces that we can't even identify. So it's just, again, given the level of scientific and technological advancement that we, humanity are capable of. We are sending drones millions of miles away. Why are we surprised if we have something here as well? And so it's the way you begin the thought process on this. I fear we're stuck

in this mental lockdown that made sense in 1950. But it doesn't make sense in 2025. It really doesn't. It doesn't even make sense for a national security. standpoint, which shouldn't be the primary lens through which we see this, but it is an important lens. And it doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly. If you have this over compartmentalization and Cold War secrecy where you have these aerospace prime contractors that were sent to do this so you couldn't use the Freedom of Information Act or you wouldn't have civilian oversight or whatever. Plausible deniability. Plausible deniability. And then you have constant compartmentalization. So the left-hand is not talking to the right. You're not getting.

the proper coordination on the most advanced and exciting and interesting R&D. I would go a bit further. And again, Dan and I have talked a lot about this. There's another layer of this problem, and that is China, Russia, India. They never had what we would call a Cartesian revolution, meaning in the West, the United States and Europe, after René Descartes, the philosopher, basically split apart the scientific from the mystical, the mysterious, the religious, the belief systems. And we continue to this day to have this split. And so therefore, you can't study this stuff because if it's not repeatable,

it's not subject to scientific analyses, because that's all about repeatability. but the rest of the world didn't have this split and they still think holistically and you can have mystical happenings with scientific findings and that is not contradictory in China, in Russia, in India, across Africa. So the question today is

is China, maybe in collaboration with Russia, making more progress because they don't have this mental hang-up? If you wanted to study certain kinds, of things related to what's called ESP in the United States, you had to hide it very carefully because you were crazy and then the government didn't want you people to thunk they're supporting crazy stuff.

But if you wanted to do the work in Russia, go right ahead. Fine, here's your money. Because they're not caught in the religion that says it's not possible. That's an interesting question. Yeah. We can't bring our science to it because we have an inhibition. And if China can, Is it possible that they will announce this first?

And that's part of why I think a lot of this is progressing. There's a fear of what is called catastrophic disclosure. And that China says we have the fastest supercomputers and quantum computers. We have the best artificial intelligence and artificial general intelligence. We got to the moon before you guys in this round, which looks like it's a real possibility. and we have found something. And if that is announced, we in the West will go, well, prove it.

But the whole rest of the world in that moment, the danger is all the adulation, admiration of Los Alamos of NASA, all eyes turn to Beijing. And then we can say, well, but this is not scientific, and you can't prove it, but the whole rest of the world is still in awe. and wonder. And that is another reason why is not in our control here in the United States. There's a real possibility that our competitors are racing ahead because they haven't got these mental constraints. I think that's very well said. Yeah. And I hope policymakers and whoever's

listening to this listens to that and we make real changes accordingly. We're going to do that explain that tweet series with you. Oh, God. The ones that had me going, Dad, what the heck? I called Curtis LeMay and I said, General, I know we have a room at Wright Patterson where you put all his secret stuff. Could I go in there? I've never heard him get mad.

But he got madder and held me. Cust me. out said don't ever ask me that question you said on X that you thought Curtis Lame had some knowledge of the UAP topic yeah why do you think that I never heard him say something about that but the research and he was into included the you know nuclear powered airplane from the better bomb- Project Orion the better bombers, but he was, I'd have to think about it. I have a reason somewhere in the back of my head, maybe we're going to have a break soon, I'll have to think. Yeah, he started the Rand Corporation and

was interested in Townsend Brown's work as well. Right, right. And Rand did right on the subject at the beginning. They did, and you know who ended up running Rand was the president of Rand for over two or three decades. It was Michael Rich, who's been, Rich's son. Ben Rich is obviously, you know, the successor to Kelly Johnson at Skunk Works who's responsible for the kind of stealth revolution. It's a small group of people that are all interconnected. Yes, absolutely. You also said on X that you have uncovered collaboration between Nicola Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown.

Yeah, but I said to you informally, I did not get that from any U.S. source. What source did you get it from? Foreign intelligence. Do you think it is a good source? Do you think it's real? No reason. Why would somebody tell me that?

Do you know the nature of that collaboration? Yeah. Yeah, because nobody had associated them. Now, as I say, I have a network real right. It's not a network of secrets, which is a network of trusted people. I mean, during a lot of these recent years,

I had friends, the Chiefs, the National Security Chief, for the Japanese Prime Minister, my buddy, for years. Actually, Dad, we should say that after you served Kennedy Johnson-Nixon Ford, you were also an advisor to many heads of government for many European countries. you advised every single Japanese prime minister

since Takadaka in 1971. So, I mean, the breadth of the network that he has is, it's exceptional. I've never seen anything like it. Yeah, well, when Nixon went down, Joey Ford entered the White House. The first full day, I got summoned, and he was there with Bill Seedman.

Bill Seedman, who was, you know, in later years, the head of resolution trust and the FDIC and all that. Bill Seedon was brilliant. Anyway, they said, how we've got something you want to do. I said, you know, I'm probably going to leave the government soon. Well, don't hurry. We have a lot of things we have wanted you to do. But first of all, we want you to arrange with the NSA, a new intelligence system.

where what is reported of interest to Jerry Ford is what he wants and not what the CIA thinks he ought to want. So I did that. The next morning at 6 a.m., living in Georgetown at the time, something knocking on my door, I'm sent by. the directive and say every evening morning brief. And every day, I prefer to get up just a hair later. But anyway, and I said, well, Jerry Ford doesn't need to know about the new mistress

for the French Prime Minister. It's not really up his alley. What we do need to know is important things like Russian bookings, the ships that might contain, might have capacity to move a lot of hours range because we were worried about inflation. So I went through a list of such things.

Oh, this is wonderful. A few weeks later that, the head of NSA, you know, some general, I don't remember his name now, told me, can you have lunch over here? Okay. And he said, you're the best client NSA has ever had. You're telling us what you need. We have huge resources, but we never know what the client wants.

So we feed them all kinds of stuff. And we give it to CIA, and then they decide what might be of interest to them. And they emphasize the love life of most. important people. That sounds like a CIA thing to do or so. Just go for the compromise or something. You know, it keeps their attention. But I'm told that your reconfiguration of the intelligence that went,

that goes into the presidential daily briefing remains. Wow. And that the NSA continues to have that input, which they did not have before that time. Wow. I changed and proven that myself, but that's my, when I'm done to believe. After I left the government. Well, real quick, Harold, I do want to stick on the Townsend Brown Tesla collaboration. So do you know anything about the nature of that collaboration?

About ending gravity motion. Wow. And so Tesla stumbled on this stuff. as well, because they were both working with high voltage electricity. Yeah, and I think, I really would like to read Saska's workbooks, but they're all in the hands of, you can't have access. You know who is tasked with retrieving Tesla's files, John Trump, who was an MIT professor,

the country's leading radar expert at the time in Donald Trump's uncle. Yeah, but he passed them over. didn't need to enable intelligence isn't that right? I don't know

that's interesting and that goes towards your theories around this stuff and I'm pretty sure Townsend Brown's stuff was

classified by the Navy yes so yeah it had to be because he was he was

part of the Navy up until 1942 when Skunk work started and then he joined

Martin Vega Corporation but maybe he was still working for the Navy because he showed up

two weeks after leaving the Navy. And he sort of left, you know, they said that they dismissed him, but like he had an amazing record. And there's even an FBI file from the time saying he was the country's leading radar expert. So there's something around that story. That's very interesting. It is fascinating, too, that the public are clamoring for the release of the JFK file, but still no talk of the Tesla papers. Yeah, nobody talks about it. And so what's in there that's of such

great importance? Well, Tesla's another guy. He said he's spoke, he communicated with aliens in Colorado Springs and people just, I think they assume that's the quacky part of his work or whatever. They assume that that's ridiculous or whatever, but he would, he said that and caught, you know, so. And then, and then Townsend Brown would constantly talk about, you know, space brothers and communication with aliens. He would sleep next to what he called a shortwave radio. He claimed that that was how he communicated with them. So, well, it's probably possible. That there was communication improvised, different ways of Israel way to communicate. A short wave radio would be one not so hard to do.

Harder is getting somebody's head telepathically, especially because we don't grow up thinking that way. And yet, the U.S. government spent a fair amount of time and money on exactly that issue over the years. Yeah, well, to the extent that they learned anything between that and LSD, we'll never know, but they have some knowledge. Yeah, because this is an interesting kind of question, because Stargate, this psychic spy program started by Hal Putoff and Russell Targ. Originally, most of the guys working on that were part of the technical staff services, the CIA. And it was people like Sidney Gottlieb and a lot of his comrades who were working on this stuff. and then post-church commission that kind of changed. But yeah, how far do you think we went when it came to kind of mind control?

And, you know, it's clear that one intelligence modality is being able to remote view, draw up Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, all sorts of things like that. Even Jimmy Carter is on record saying the craziest thing of my presidency from 1976 and 1980 was actually this woman, Rosemary Smith, finding a down to T. Russian cargo plane, and she was given all of Africa as a target, and she circled three square miles in Zaire, and they found the plane. Next time one of our space satellites went over, that area we located the plane where she said it was. So that's clear, but do you think we've gone farther,

and there are sort of mind control techniques that we have? Very nice thing, but we don't know, do we? Yeah. Personally, when I think about always being at some critical point, all these interconnectivities for men, I keep looking from, where's the direction coming from? I mean, I don't feel any direct sensing. On the other hand, when I grew up,

my mother was a powerful personality, brain, I mean, she could read my mind. She said, why did you do that? I don't remember doing that. Yes, you do. Let me see. It was 3rd of January, 1942, or something, you know. And how should she do that?

So she could do it, but I couldn't do that with her. But on the other hand, I sometimes feel, and there's this hand over me, that's lean to the left or lean on the right. That's the closest I have to it. And now you feel maybe somewhat guided to look into a lot of this, you know, Townsend Brown and UFOs.

I feel guided, and why did I hear about that? Because I showed a deep interest. I sent a tweet saying, why is it, I can't see Tesla's worth? Why what's so important? Now, to be honest, as a semi-scientist, let's call it that, I respect the work of Albert Einstein, but his work are conceptual and theoretic,

throwing on math. Tesla was very much hands-on, But he's learned about electricity, its application, in everything, the movement of electrons. Like far transcends, powering lights in your room, which led him into physical movement, transposition, whatever term you want to use. But all that is buried, but he was way, way out there. I mean, in my mind, he was equal to or even stronger than Einstein. I agree with that.

I mean... Well, Einstein was never an experimentalist. Tesla was dealing real experiment. He was, if I say, he was cerebral. You know, it was all mental conceptual. To me, it's almost like Einstein put a governor on our, physical progress in reality. And actually...

I agree with that. He made physics go that way. Yes. Whereas Tesla was trying to pull the physics that way. Yes, and the experimentalists

make the most progress, and often they're poor theoreticians, and they don't actually have the proper frameworks to really understand what they're doing. Yeah. But they're... I mean, I think in the case of Tesla, Towns Brown, and a bunch of other cases, they're sort of

really at the... operating at the boundaries of human knowledge, and often it's with high energy physics or, you know, particle accelerators, things like that where we're doing things in the physical world that are kind of breaking, breaking prior limits. And sometimes it's in microscopy and just getting, you know, to lower levels of granularity. But I think that begets so much more progress than guys, you know, with chalkboards, just like writing equations. So this comes up against another issue and you and I were talking with Eric Weinstein the other day about this, which is, did we create a kind of invisible glass or perspex wall? And many technologies, particularly

in the nuclear space, were placed on the other side. And so you could only study them, get involved with them if you had a classified status and you joined a government lab or an approved academic lab. But if you tried to do things with nuclear physics in your garage, you were going to be arrested. And people have been arrested over the years for attempting these things. Well, that pushed a lot of theoretical physics into the don't touch arena. And now, because of incredible advancements in computational power, in the kind of... devices that gather data. Basically, you can't lock it away the way you used to.

People are able to uncover it. And maybe that is part of also what is causing this UAP issue to bubble up to the surface is because it's very hard to keep a lock on it now. You can classify the Tesla papers, but human beings are still starting to figure out what Tesla figured out. And today, you know, there's been talk of... of, for example, Andresen and Horowitz, who are two of the leading venture capitalists alive today,

who have recently been discussing the previous administration's attitude towards math because they don't want some teenager coming up with an artificial intelligence that would have wide-ranging consequences. So they started to think we could lock that down. You know, one of the things we argued in our meeting with the White House on AI policy was, you know,

look, there are going to be issues that come from AI, but they should be regulated. The regulation should happen the application level, not at the technology level. Yeah. And he argued with me when I said that. Well, so, yes. So Ben basically said, look, it doesn't make sense

because to regulate AI at the technology level, you're regulating math. And of course, we're not gonna do that. Like, that doesn't make any sense. And you'll recall that what they said was, no, actually. We can classify math. We can classify math. And literally, this is, this is verbatim.

This is, this is, we did, we classified a whole entire areas of physics in the nuclear era and made them state secrets. Like, of the, like, theoretical physics, yeah. Science and physics. And they're like, wait, what? Like, what? Yeah, like physics supposed to be open source.

And so you start to wonder, is Eric Weinstein right, that physics went down a certain road because there was a wall. Yes. And now the weight of new innovations is crushing that wall. Well, that brings, you know, another explain that tweet series. So we have, Harold, you wrote, questions appearing regarding successor to AEC. AEC is the Atomic Energy Commission.

Department of Energy now oversees all national labs, including nuke research and security. National labs also include advanced research on other potential security threats, such as biotech, all subject to DOE, Department of Energy, R&D classifications. So are you saying here that our most advanced science is not occurring in the labs or hallways of MIT? Harvard, Stanford, but in fact, at these DOE research facilities. Yes. I wrote a little song to remind you,

Choice Hotels, get you more of the experiences you value. The Can Bea Hotels got it all. A rooftop bar, have a ball. Bring a date, your squad, or even your mom. Book direct at choiceotails.com. I guess that's just a mic drop moment. Let me give you an example.

I became really close friends with Senator Howard Baker. I mean, a man who would have made a great president. Anyway, I worked with him, talking a lot. We became friends. He had me and my wife of that time down at his country house. several times. And he said one day, I went to go up to Oak Ridge

and spend some time with them. And I said, oh, I didn't know you were attached with them. I thought you were attached with Tennessee Valley. They said, yeah, but, you know, I live in Tennessee. I'm nearby. You can imagine that we are intimately interconnected. I would like you to spend a few days talking to them about

the technologies they're working on that might be made commercialized in some way or other because they don't have that in their work agenda they just develop and develop but he said I just have a feeling that a lot of that should be made public

so I did and they had really interesting stuff going on areas that you never think of. The most impressive one was when somebody said, we know more about filters than anybody in the world. And I said, filters.

I said, like filters for the water supply. He said, filters of molecules, filters of any moving elements of our system, and we don't have a purpose for all of this, but they're very important in developing, refining nuclear weapons. That's why we do it. I said it's a great value in biotech and in management of the water supply is only one of many things, but it should be

well we don't have a mechanism for generalizing what we're doing and it's too much it's too much work to say let's be regulated so we just we don't want to get tangled up with all that stuff in Washington

so we just do what we're doing it's stuck in my mind and why it's stuck when the AT&T was on the eve of being broken up. AT&T hired me as the final witness before Judge Harold Green,

and I got into the United States is not ready for a total breakup because number one, Bell Labs is where all are really advanced sciences. They said, how do you know that? Because I went to Bell Labs. I spent a week there,

and I'm telling you that's where all the brain. power is. And I said the second reason is our industry, we don't have Panasonic and all these other companies ready to build all the phones for all the offices. We have, we're not ready. So that's, if you're going to do this, it should be done in stages. The Department of Justice Fagg kept getting up, but I object to this testimony is not part of the case. And Judge Green them down and said, he's the first man talking about anything relevant and of interest to me as a human being. So just then talk. Do you believe, because we're talking about Bell Labs, that's part of this narrative of this guy, Philip J. Corso, who was working in the Army on what he claims to be the foreign material exploitation desk.

He says that as part of that role, basically crash materials from Roswell were given to him to dole out to private industry. and mainly it was given to Bell Labs. He says that Kevlar, lasers, and transistors were all derivative of this alien technology. Should be. So you'd say possible, but not, you don't have any evidence for that. No, but it should be.

Okay. And let me interject, something that keeps coming up in conversation about this issue is I hear a lot of PIPA, look for the technologies where there's no on-ramp. I go, what do you mean on-ramp? I mean, you can't find the research history that led to it. Those are the interesting ones to pay attention to.

They're not saying it's definitely from this particular story. They come out of nowhere. The ones that come out of nowhere, those have interesting stories. So fascinating. And Harold, do you believe, because you're interested in, Townsend Brown to begin with, presumably this source gave you this information on Townsend Brown collaborating with Tesla, which, if that's true, that is remarkable and needs to be known more broadly. Do you think that Townsend Brown discovered anti-gravity?

I don't know, but somebody just posted on the Internet the workbooks at Townsend Brown. And I downloaded the whole thing. It turns out to be 500 pages. I haven't gotten to get out of my telephone. He's very excited about it. That's amazing. I'm going to go through that. Yeah.

Somewhere in there, I'm going to find something. So I can't answer your question right now. Yeah. But I think Tesla, anyway, was on this track of the movement of electrons. allowed repositioning of just about everything. What exactly does that mean? What's the term transmutation? Transmutation.

Interesting, of elements. Yeah. So that's so interesting because what I go deep enough on the Townsend Brown stuff with certain scientists, they'll say that it gets into that, the transmutation of elements. thing. And that that's actually why this stuff was shut down because there are more dangerous implications around that than the anti-gravity stuff. Well, look at today, again, I'm a bit involved in the world of artificial intelligence. We already are able to create what are called

programmable materials where you can specify the behavior of the material and use materials as a data transmission mechanism. So suddenly you're dealing with things and capabilities that don't fit traditional parameters. Let's add to that that you know, because of

Google's new sycamore supercomputer and their new willow chip, they're already discovering basically the recipes for creating new materials atom by atom by atom,

which is a revolution in human history. Because in the past, you had to start with, you know, a tree to make a table out of wood or a boat, right? But today you can start with what is the requirement? What are the characteristics that I need? And then build that material atom by atom by atom. So suddenly, I mean, we have, I think they've said, 380,000 new materials and 2 million new crystals that no one's ever worked with before. And this will only continue now.

So these ideas that you can have materials that do strange things is no longer insane, like we're building them. What just allows you to do is to devise it in here and make it over there. Also, yes. So you can make it anywhere once you have the concept. It's a cookbook. It's a cookbook, yeah. Okay, so. we're you're it's the jfk administration you're this young whiz kid and you see this kind of rupture in the administration

where uh jfk is going to scatter the CIA to the winds delis gets fired he's kind of licking his wounds back at the brown brothers herriman which is this firm that sort of formed the CIA to begin with and he is plotting possible revenge against jfk probably so we what do you what do you think happens from there. Do you think Dulles had anything to do with JFK's assassination? Well, they are saying they are going to release all those papers now. That's right. So we'll see. But what does all those papers mean? I mean, like one version or all the versions? What do you, have you ever met a guy named Danny Sheehan by any chance? Pippinot knows him.

So what do you think of? Because you actually, You tweeted, this was the first time I was so like, I was like, wow, I'm on Harold's radar. This is amazing. You tweeted, you know, Jesse from American Alchemy just went over a lot of the history around the JFK assassination with Danny Sheehan. And so I felt like that was maybe somewhat of an endorsement of the Danny Sheehan narrative of what happened. Pippa knows him. Piper knows him even better now. I'm about to know him, it seems.

Nice. Do you think, so his narrative is that Nixon, who is head of the 5412 committee under Eisenhower, along with being his VP, he was working with Howard Hughes to create this quote unquote S-force, which was this kind of elite kind of sleeper cell unit. and they were going to take out Che Guevara and Castro. And that ends up not happening. The Bay of Pigs occurs. And, you know, Eisenhower leaves and JFK comes in.

And they sort of, you know, get rolled into these other special ops programs, Mongluse and Foxtrot. And then once JFK fires Dulles, Dulles is kind of licking his wounds at the Brown Brothers Harriman, and he recommissions this S-Force, which is full of these Cuban Exa, who've been militarized originally to take out Che Guevar and Castro, but in fact this time around to take out JFK.

Do you think that there's any credence to this story? There are quite a few stories. When I was six years old, my father moved us to first of Providence, Rhode Island, and then to a community further along Narragansett Bank. and suddenly I found myself in a community which was totally dominated by the Sicilian mafia. In fact, most of Rhode Island was...

Interesting. And the dominant mafia figure for Boston was, the overseer was Providence. And I grew up in this environment where in school if one kid, one male, you got to be a bully out of nowhere around near closing time for school, a couple of guys would be guys

would come in, grab him, take him out, beat the shit out of him. And then they told us next day, he won't bully you anymore. And so I later on began to ask the police, how is it work here? I said, no disorganized crime. No break-ins, no bullying, no wife beating, no disorganized crime. Organized crime definitely is protection.

And all those stories about mafia, movies. I mean, I grew up and all that. Yeah, this is the way it works. And I met a lot of these people. Not my culture. I wasn't even Catholic, the role of Catholics. But I learned a lot about it. Now, let me tell you, it's very interesting to me, the first time I met the Prime Minister of Italy in 1973, along with Pete Peterson, who had been sent over. by Nixon to do a kind of tour of the world. I sat down, he said, Mr. Malmgren, I've been looking forward to meeting you.

Pete, you won't understand this. Let me explain. Howell here knows all about the Sicilian way. He grew up in it. He understands it. I know what he knows. So let me explain before you start some lecture. around confusion of state and crime and Italy.

We had all these communist troublemakers, red brigades, all kinds of stuff. The only way the church and the state could fight, we had to use the mafia. Because they could do things we couldn't do. Okay. So, yes, there was a triumphal that red, I ran Italy for a long time, and it was an alliance of the Pope, the Vatican, the elected government, and the Sicilian market.

We'll let the audience interpret that analogy as an answer to the JFK question. When I met, Chris Huda had been governor of Massachusetts before he, he'd been in Congress and Governor of Massachusetts before he became Secretary of State. So I asked him one day, I said, how did you ever do that? I said, you're a straight shooter. Why did you ever take that job as governor of Massachusetts? He said, what do you mean? I said, you can't run the state of Massachusetts without running Boston. You can't run Boston without the mafia.

He said, oh, you asked the same question to my wife to ask. me. Why are you doing this stupid thing? Why do you want to take it on? He said, I puzzled, I thought, I thought, and I decided I haven't, I'm going to establish a principle, and it worked

for me. I said, what was the principal? I announced that I will not meet with anyone for any reason outside government without members of the press president. And he said,

no one from the mafia could come to talk to me without me inviting the president. So they had to use indirection. And I could always wave them off saying I don't, I'm not going to even say is that a threat, I'm going to ignore you. He said, I just insulated myself totally.

And he was independently wealthy as well. Yeah. So he couldn't be bought. He said they can't touch me. I'm really wealthy. So I felt like asking you want to spare me a little money. But I think it's so interesting. How did the Prime Minister of Italy know?

And the answer must be that because you grew up in that community. They knew you, they knew your dad. I never told anybody about it. He knew all about it. Wow. You know, so that's a different network. Yeah. And that same day, he said, I wanted to go across the river.

to the Vatican and meet Archbishop Martinez the head of the Vatican Bank Wow So if he

Would you too please over there I've already arranged The car is outside They'll drive you over You won't get stopped You're coming from me to see the archbishop

We go over there Marchinkus Former Archbishop of Chicago big guy, tall in his black robe cowboy boots, leaning back smoking a big fat Cuban cigar. He started up the same way. He read it all about you. You got to meet you in Mr. Hal, I think he said.

Here, he understands everything, but so be with me. I will explain to you, how will explain more if you have questions later. And I looked up and he said, we know about you from your boyhood with a lot of our associates in the mafia. So then he proceeded to talk about the three-h trip-partite way of defending themselves against communism.

I remember coming out of their pizza. How did he know all that? I said, search me, I don't know. But there was movement between Sicily and people living in near where I was. And I met a lot of these people. They never said, boy, when you grow up, you can be one of us. I wasn't one of them. I wasn't Catholic.

I wasn't something. Anyway, it was interesting. Well, it sounds like the Italian government in the Vatican were tied into, they had mob ties in the U.S. Totally. And that that connectivity allowed them to understand who you were to begin with. No question. That's amazing. Do you think there's like a deeper layer to politics that people are unaware of that, you know, I mean, even outside of the talks of like a quote unquote deep state,

or, you know, unelected bureaucrats running the government? Like, is there something even deeper at play that's sort of transnational? Yep, the answer is, yes. I'm sitting here in this facility. There are people going to realize if I push a button. You could call Putin right now this minute. Yeah. Really?

You have a direct line to him right now? Don't have that? Yep. And they were trying to establish a back channel and Obama shut down the back channel that, yeah. We've probably never needed this back channel more than we do today. Harold understood Putin's psychology, and with tensions between the U.S., Russia and China running high,

Harold's deep expertise on nuclear game theory and his former close friendship with conflict escalation expert Herman Kahn would be eminently useful. I was identified early as the first thing. whose name they were familiar with, the chess player. And it builds slowly. In 1982 or something, I was with Kessinger and George Dillis and a couple of other people in Moscow.

As an age, we were invited to watch the ballet, and we came and we were, going to be seated in the Tsar's box. And Kissinger, as usual, marched ahead of everybody and went to the seat of the Tsar. And one of the HADCAP people said, Henry, not tonight.

Not tonight. That seat is for Dr. Malmgren. And he said, what? It must be some misunderstanding. He said, no, no. We know him. He is the shadow of his uncle. You are not one of the world's great chess players.

You may think of him. And he may not be yet, but he comes from that bloodline. And in honor of him, he will sit in that chair tonight. Now, it was intended humiliation of Kissinger. Yeah, Kissinger must have not been very happy. I think he melted down. I was already at Warwick Pissinger on other issues. He really got pissed off.

He tried not to show it, but it was out of proportion. preposterous. Anyway, yeah, he didn't forget it. I didn't forget it, but I never rubbed it in. As the Soviet system was collapsing, the Russian Republic was falling together. together and Yeltson became the first president. At that time, 1992 I was invited to a meeting in St. Petersburg, Russia by the mayor of

St. Petersburg. And at that time, the deputy mayor was Vladimir Putin. And a number of Americans from business and diplomats and top Soviet officials, outgoing, incoming Russian officials, heavily loaded with what they call the Scylla Viki, the security people, looking for new careers. And so gathering, I don't know, 75, maybe up to 100 people in the hall as a meeting opened

before you have drinks and before you sit down and all that. And somebody comes to grab me and I recognize him. You're Jamie Primacoff. Now, Primacov, who was he? was officially national academic council or something. It was an official body supervising research in all fields. And he was in charge of Asia from China to the Middle East.

But he had known KGB connections. In fact, many people thought he was a key official. Anyway, I had met him in. earlier years. And he grabbed me by the elbow that marched me over. Some of you need to meet. And he introduced me to Putin. He said, this man is rising.

He will soon be very important. You should know him. Now I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting. Bimekhov looked for me, found me in a crowd, brought me over. It was intentional. Now, Putin was staying there talking to Kissinger. He did know Kissinger. And Bimacob says, excuse me, Henry, but Vladimir needs to know someone else.

Kishner looked at him. He said, how do you get into that? Anyway, you drew me away from Kissinger. Kessinger believed he was the only channel, and it was through Primakov. But Dobrian, but may have done this on more than me, but I had a channel directly with the Russians,

at his choice. But he introduced me to Primacov when I went to Mosque, Cala Pima Chau wanted to get to know me. I was treated not as partisan of anything, but as someone who could be trusted to carry an idea, explore it to get an answer back. That's something different.

I was very mindful of not getting cross-mised with our intelligence system. Hissinger thought he was the number, One communication channel between Russia and America, in the back channel. There's a history of why he and I had conflict, a very elaborate history. Because of my assignments and his predilection, it all really related to the large role in U.S. 12. trade legislation that had a restriction on opening trade relations with Russia because of the

Russian treatment of emigrates of Jews from Russia to either to the U.S. or to Israel. And for a while I worked with the Senate and Senator Abe Rivikov was the scene Jewish political leader in the American system. And as an A. told me, Jake Javitt is my partner. He's number two. And the chief executive of Seagrams in New York is the treasurer.

It's a structure. We give guidance to A-PAC and other bodies. But this, we represent the Jews. Jewish community, and I want you to take on the task of negotiating with the Russians about this issue of Jewish emigrants. I said, Abe, I'm not Jewish. He said, I knew that. I've been looking for someone like you for a long time.

It had to be somebody who didn't have Jewish grandmothers or grandfathers or cousins. I didn't want family quarrels in the middle. I wanted someone between hands. you're the first person I met who's as smart as us Jews Oh, gosh so I said when I think that should not

we had a laugh about that and I did act as the intermediary In fact, I was sent to Jerusalem and got briefed by Mossad

by Shinn Beth Shinbeth. And fully, I may have several days of full-fail explanation of what goes on between Israel and the U.S. in the dark world of intelligence. Startled the CIA. Who the hell was I? But, you know, I was operating at the request

of the senior political figure in the Jewish community, so nobody was going to mess with me. Anyway, but the Russians were impressed. by being picked out to do this out of all the different people that could. So all of this was in play in the background. So somehow, the old Soviet guard working through Yeltsin said Putin has to be Harold.

We don't understand Harold, but he always pops up in the important places. Yeah. like Zellig or something. And then you actually dying with him, one-on-one. You converse with him. You talk about what you learn from that relationship. You can find, I wrote at the time of the invasion of Ukraine,

I wrote my impressions of Vladimir Putin. which I've been in Cremu, opiaring to on the world, I'm notheral and I'm to consider constitutional

of the of Russia of two new subjects of the Republic of and the

Southpola. They are unheard. I wrote two essays about Putin. You should feature them on just just a little link to them because they're very important.

There's so much. It's like... As I said, I didn't meet Putin by accident. They arranged for me to meet. They did not ask me to write what I did. I wrote what I thought he was up to when he was reading he was. I didn't criticize him, praise him. All I said was this is his state of mind.

He liked the two essays that I wrote. Really? How do I know? He read them. So I said, watch. Speak of the National Security Council in Tokyo. Wow. And to the book.

Wow. So happy to join with you. Is there something you believe our president should do? And I said, yes. Him counsel to improve his speech in English. that he's made leaps and bounce from the Civil Assembly. Suddenly, your president will become

a big thing, an entirely new figure in the eyes of Americans. Because instead of being some maniacic, engineering, genius robots to cross America, see him. Young people, people, journalists, staff members, and Congress, they don't see his pace. And they'll hear his words.

And sure enough, suddenly he was everybody's friend. When I went from DOD to Lyndon Johnson, I arrived October 64. I get called over by General Counsel. LBJ wants you to go on a very secret mission to Tokyo. To me, it's already arranged. I had no, but it's already arranged. You will meet the Japanese Prime Minister.

He will be accompanied by some Japanese named Miyazawa. who's the English is perfect. He's an official in the cabinet. Meershow recently was prime minister. Anyway, so I said, okay, what do I do? Said you, we're arranged the tickets. You do not tell anyone in your agency what you're doing. You just take some days off.

Chris Hutto knows, he approved it, and he said, you're just the right person. Who knows? Chris Hurdle because I was in his aid. But no one else knows. Don't tell anyone your agency. Don't visit the American Embassy. They don't know you there.

Don't tell the State Department. Don't tell anyone. You'll find the entry and exit will be handled swiftly. You deliver this message and then get an answer, write it down personally. When you get back, if you want to type it up, it's helpful. But don't address it to the present. Don't say on the envelope, eyes only, it'll be genuine, because then 30 people want to see it.

So, and I said, well, how do I get it? Here's the name of his personal secretary. She will expect it. She will tell them to give her the envelope if it comes. You deliver it yourself. They let you in the door, your hand over the envelope. That's it. No return address.

Don't have your name on, date, anything. Okay. Well, the origin of this was the Kennedy people were all over Johnson the minute he became president. Are you going to keep all the commitments of John Kennedy? He said, what can I do? They put pressure on this. I said, of course I will. But he said some of those commitments involved, something I don't agree with,

it was cracking down on imports of foreign nations. of textiles. It's been a delicate subject between Eisenhower administration. We already have this elaborate system for import controls, but I think this is all just to favor

a certain group of people. So I want to guide the dialogue with Japan. So I want to say I'm not going to argue with you about this. We're not going to have legislation, but I really would like your cooperation to ask the industry to slow the

pace of expansion for at least a year or two so that I don't have to address this. Well, we had some other issues with Japan at the time, so I met Sato, and so he was quite happy and said, yes, of course. Came back, passed it on. No one number knows I made that trip. This is the beginning of what we now know is voluntary export restraints. And it was a means of keeping the peace

between the U.S. and Japan on this super politically sensitive issue for LBJ. And the point is that this is often how presidents do things. They don't always use the official system. They have unofficial backtales. At the time, I asked the general counsel, why can't you use secure lines of communication?

He said, yeah, well, Sigelphor has their system, but a lot of people listen to it. Right. said, Signal of Hore doesn't deny CIA access. And then since Signal 4 is part of the Army, most of the military knows whatever goes. So you can't use that. Not to mention the Russians and everybody and anybody else.

Yeah, well, we got to that. We have all these other. You said, you say something. It's just like if you ever send a message to, the president saying, I is only the president. It's an automatic imitation. Everybody knows.

Everybody will, before the president sees it, they'll have to see it and write a perpetuity comment. I'll give you an example. I was given when Nixon came in, it was a special commission

on the transition. A bunch of papers from Dean Rusk. to Johnson. Nixon was coming in, it was felt he should see it. And there was a bunch of papers with a letter from George Ball

to the president pleading with, let's downsize this whole Vietnam thing, before it blows up in your face. With cover notes that size, stapled on from Dean Rusk, here's George added again, trying to get in the way of what we must do.

I mean, Gene Russ totally dismissive of everything. Now, interesting, I was told later, by his daughter, Linda Bird, that he really valued George Ball. He read every member of George Ball. He thought he was the only guy in the foreign policy system that his brain's George Ball was always opposed to heightening the war. So, I mean, I knew the daughter because I dated a girl who was best friends with Linda Bird, so I spent evenings with her and her boyfriend playing cards.

So I learned lots of stuff. My own intelligence system. I'm telling you. What? Well, I'm a human male. It was sometimes beneficial, I can say over a lifetime, more not beneficial. Anyway, but that kind of process, there was no secure way, that should send somebody.

And you can't do it in the way it's visible. Well, I love your, and my research, your name always pops up next to Malmgram, Inc., which I always found, like, hilariously-known. nondescript and non-threatening and sort of, you know, just extremely generic. Yeah, well, I never advertised anything specific. You seem to just keep getting, having these interactions with people kind of on the inside. Mm-hmm.

I mean, now we're getting into trippier territory, and who knows if this is correct, but it's almost like a sort of mental network or a network of serendipity or something, where you look at your interactions with Carl Compton as young as you were. and then Richard Bissell saying, it's almost like, I need to tell you this for some sort of unknown reason. And so there's something about that that I find fascinating. Particularly on nuclear.

Nuclear. And I mean, how many Americans have sat down and had dinner with President Putin and understand what he thinks about nuclear weapons and how they might be used, which I think is a story you should tell a little bit about. Because it all goes back to the 13-year-old requesting these documents

and somehow ends up. Now, I've been told, but Dad won't confirm that he worked on preventing a nuclear crisis on more than one occasion. But you only tell me about one.

And people in the intelligence world are like, oh, your dad is good. What? What's going on? So I won't make you go there. But you have met with the leader, of Russia on nuclear matters after all of this that we now know. Wow. This, I think, is related to the subject, and it's important to discuss.

And today, do we have a system for deconflicting the U.S. and Russia if these things show up? And what is happening practically as we speak? We have unidentified objects flying all over the United States. Yes. Not just in New Jersey. No. Over nuclear facilities. over weapons arsenals, but it's happening globally.

And the speculation on the people deepest on the subject, people like Robert Hastings, who wrote an amazing book called UFOs and nukes, and all of his whistleblowers, almost 170, who work, they have queue clearances at these atomic sites. Their intuition, you could just, you could say a whole host of things as far as why these UFOs show up. You could say they're offensive,

which I just don't believe because they haven't really done too much that's offensive. They've done really nothing. Well, we shoot at them, but they don't. They don't cheat at us. So all of their first intuition as to why these UFOs show up around our most sensitive sites is because they're trying to show us that our ways are, you know, too brutal, and we're going to blow ourselves up and to kind of make us think about higher things.

And so I don't know if you guys think that, but... No, I think that's what it's all about. Plus, if you get too serious with nuclear explosions, we can do lasting damage to the shell of the Earth. We're plumbing deeper and deeper into the center. I mean, we don't know what happens if you start. Well, there's an optimum of radiation necessary for evolution to occur. Also. Because you have, you know, this kind of intersection between the magnetosphere of the earth, which actually dictates biological morphology on a pretty fundamental way, and UV radiation, which creates the genetic mutations necessary for natural selection, differential selection.

And you are messing with this sort of equilibrium every time there's a nuclear spill. And the really interesting, crazy part is you have a town in Japan next to the Fukushima Prefecture called Lino, and it's dedicated to UFOs. And over 50% of the residents all believe in UFOs. There's a museum dedicated to UFOs. And there, during the spill, they say the UFOs came down. They helped clean up the spill, this monk who guards this temple in Japan. And so it's just fascinating. It's like they're the stewards of the earth.

They may well be. It begins with the opening question. As I said, I felt all the... the way along, these unexpected interrelated events, there was a message to the madness somewhere. And my mother telling me, just keep doing what you're doing. You have a purpose. You have a purpose. And you may not know it until the end.

But, well, because I may be approaching the end, hold on, my doctors say I will outlast my mother. She lived for a hundred. Wow. What's, yes. Yeah, but my doctor's saying, you have no physiological problems, no troubles with the knees and hips and all that stuff. At 89, to be clear. You're already lasting longer than most of my interview subjects, so. I said, why am I here?

I asked for it. You met a president of MIT. That day. That who keeps? Wow. Well, they see I have a lot of majestic, all these guardians. They all took you out of those to protect the world.

So it was chosen. I asked him to come to me. He was so understand them. Could Harold have been using the moniker, Majestic, in its counterintelligence context? Absolutely. But he used the word so secondhand, so casually, that he was clearly speaking about some genuine group, in my opinion. A group probably related to continuity of government and contingency plans. Contingency plans for general catastrophes like nuclear events, not just

extraterrestrials. These sorts of committees have gone by many names, 5412, the 303 committee, the committee of 40. And they probably involve subcommittees will never know the names of. On our drive to the hospital, with his oxygen hovering at unsafe levels, Harold maintained the cheeriest of attitudes and could not stop telling stories about his past. There was so much he wanted to get off his chest. We discussed the fact that Putin was trying to set up a diplomatic back channel with Harold in 2009, but that Obama shut that prospect down. We talked about Harold helping Shui Shiro Toyota set up the Toyota headquarters in Kentucky.

We even talked about the fact that Harold was one of the first people on Earth to break the four-minute mile after Roger Bannister. Apparently, Harold could repeatedly break the four-minute mile in his 20s. Right as we got to the hospital, we got into trippier territory. Harold said he was engaged in deep research around the mid-century anti-gravity inventor, Thomas Townsend Brown. We discussed Brown's obsession with time travel, because gravity is linked with time and general relativity. We talked about how Townsend Brown really believed he had found a missing puzzle piece for time travel. I then asked Harold about the existence of a coordinated group trying to deliberately affect timelines. A very talkative Harold Malmgren went

noticeably silent. Well, Harold, I want you to take care of yourself, man. I know we've been talking for an hour now, and I wish I could be with you in person. And I miss you, man. And I want you to just get better. You know, yeah, I really hope you rest up. And you have my numbers, so you can call me at any time if you ever need help with anything. And, uh, yeah. I'm looking at me up here, pretty soon. Okay. And my health is good.

Good. I think of the people are in my way. Yeah. Under the pseudonym Chase Brandon, a CIA agent turned Hollywood liaison, wrote a book in 2012. The book discusses a celestial object that telepathically communicates with its recipient. The object also relays critical information about future timelines. A secret committee is brought together by synchronicities and extraterrestrial beings that seem to know about every one of its members.

The committee are an elite group of military and scientific thinkers designated to deal with the issue of non-human intelligence. The main character of the book is a mathematical whiz kid named Chalmers, who is plucked by the head honchos of the Office of Strategic Services, and then this special specials. committee. He helps the committee navigate the future of humanity and manage complex timelines. He's also taken in and out of a liminal, timeless dominion where he's taught important things by otherworldly beings that go to determine his purpose in life. The common trope in the book is that Chalmers had a purpose. It was a deeply installed, driven purpose, even if it was

subconscious. The first page of this book quotes Francis Bacon. Truth is so hard to tell it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible. When Harold called me again prior to his passing, I thought I'd bring up time travel one last time. Harold, do you think your life is connected with time travel in any way? About this, many, many times. It's really, yes.

Nothing else explains. And I'm calling to that at MIT. Professor, I didn't have this slightest inhibition. I was talking as if I knew something. I don't know why I know it. I know it. And in fact, what I did say was breaking truth or was no knowledge at that time. If you asked me, did I have a lot.

purpose yes now my mother was a most remarkable person she read books on tomorrow she read so many books she kept saying to me you have to understand you cannot decide by yourself even knowledge there was a purpose of your purpose