American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Randall Carlson: Is The Moon An ALIEN Satellite Monitoring Earth?

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Starting point is 00:00:26 I think that you can interpret the evidence that there is a strong, strong case for the existence of Atlantis. And one of the things I've done is studied the marine geology and oceanography of the Atlantic Ocean Basin, and there's overwhelming evidence of major subsidence on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, particularly concentrated along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. What we're seeing now, those islands are the tops of mountains. We're crazy speculative territory here. What's up with the moon?

Starting point is 00:00:57 It's really strange. The moon has sufficient mass that it should have... deformed into the state of least energy which is a sphere. Why hasn't it done that? What do you think? I am willing to consider that the moon has been geoengineered. And how would it have been geoengineered? By a civilization with the technology advanced enough. Do you think Atlantis geoengineered it?

Starting point is 00:01:21 Look, the Imperial Mammoth stood 16 feet tall at the shoulder. The Ursus Spalius, the bear that stood six feet tall at the shoulder and 12 feet tall when it stood up on its high place. There were giants. But if you had all of these mammalian megafauna, oversized compared to today, why not people? Different parts of the brain have different activities. But you know that, don't you. People like you do a lot.

Starting point is 00:01:51 Maybe you should interview me. This week's American Alchemist is the always fascinating and extremely knowledgeable Randall Carlson. Randall and I have been friends since 2018. I annoy him constantly with random phone calls on everything related to esoterica, ancient civilizations, and geology. This interview spans two conversations, one in 2022 and one in 2024. In private, Randall and I have had some pretty trippy conversations about the ancient site of Atlantis, a cataclysm that might have disrupted life there, and then where those survivors went. Randall has speculated with me given certain anomalies with the moon that maybe some sort of

Starting point is 00:02:40 some of these survivors have camped out on the moon. I think about that with respect to the UFO topic where there's constant lore around underwater bases, and there are a lot of real anomalies with our moon, and so I decided to grill Randall Carlson on this thread. So my disclaimer here is that this conversation is gonna be stepwise more speculative than any conversation you've heard Randall have.

Starting point is 00:03:03 And I have no idea if there's veracity to any of this, but it's extremely fun to speculate, and it's also important. drive science. I also think if you look at a lot of Randall's earlier work around the younger dryest impact hypothesis, it would have been considered extremely speculative in the 90s, but now we have an abundance of evidence that he's probably just right. So in the name of possibly pushing things forward, I decided to get crazy with him. And let's see if any of it holds up. I now present to you, the gray-bearded wizard of Georgia, Graham Hancock's work husband, and my good friend, this week's

Starting point is 00:03:37 American Alchemist, Randall Carlson. Randall, thank you for having me, man. Oh, thanks for having me. You made a little feature on the show with Graham. I don't know if you saw that. You called in, and so it's good to actually be here in the flesh with you. Yeah, here we are. Well, we've talked about this for a year or two or three.

Starting point is 00:03:59 Yeah. Since we met, which was, it's got to be at least a couple years now. I want to say it was three years ago, something like that. years. I tried to get you to move to LA and become my mentor. I was sorely tempted, but yeah, when push came to shove, I couldn't pull it off. You got busy. You did. I remember at the time you were like, you know, I've been thinking I need somebody to, you know, transmit my teachings to. And I've always remembered that because I've, you know, called you randomly from time. You probably know me as a guy to call you, you know, sporadically.

Starting point is 00:04:39 Yeah, right, right. Sometimes my phone ring, I'll, oh, God, it's Jesse Michaels again. Hey, Jesse! No, I'm always happy to get a call from you, Jesse. Thanks, man. So far. I love our conversation. We talk about some trippy out there stuff.

Starting point is 00:04:58 Speaking of which, I've been on a weird kind of rabbit hole, and I've been thinking about the moon. and I think the moon doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I would agree. Okay. I would totally agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah. What's up with the moon?

Starting point is 00:05:17 It is way less dense than the Earth. The material predates the Earth, and yet it's supposed to have come from the Earth itself, from some sort of asteroid impact, so that doesn't make sense. There were reverberations when the lunar lander hit it, both in Apollo 12 and in Apollo 13, you had ringing.

Starting point is 00:05:37 And when meteoroid strike it, same thing. While those Apollo-in-place seismometers were on the moon, I think for three or four years, NASA was able to gather data. And yes, it shows that the moon has a long vibrational train after like 10 times or more that of, say, the Earth. You have uranium-236 and cronium and chromium and titanium on the moon. These are sort of either rare. High refractory metals.

Starting point is 00:06:08 It's very strange. And then it feels almost like, you know, this perfect ball. And it rotates in this perfect way where you never see the dark side of the moon. If you ask people, and I do this just for the, I'll say to people, does the moon rotate on its axis? And most people go. And they can't conceptualize in any way that allows them to even answer the question. Does it? yes

Starting point is 00:06:37 okay it does or no well let's see because most people now unlike our ancestors of long ago don't pay much attention to the moon our ancestors all over the ancient world

Starting point is 00:06:52 paid obsessive attention to the moon they built huge structures and monuments dedicated to observing the motions of the moon and they did this all over the world. Why?

Starting point is 00:07:07 Why were they so interested in the moon? Why were they so intrigued with the moon that they would create these large astronomy observatories that would allow them to track, for example, the 18.6 year lunar cycle between maximum rising and setting, minimum rising and setting, which takes 18.6 years to go through the full cycle And to put it into a very, what I would think of as kind of a comprehensible motion is you've got a minimum rising, a minimum setting, a maximum rising, a maximum setting.

Starting point is 00:07:46 And it goes like this. Does that make sense what I'm doing? It goes maximum, like maximum rise, minimum set. Maximum set, minimum rise. And it oscillates like that. back and forth, it takes 18.6 years, give or take a few days, to complete that full cycle. There's a place that we'll go to at some point in Colorado called Chimney Rock. We can pull up a slide of it a little bit later if you'd like.

Starting point is 00:08:22 It's two natural pillars, huge pillars are 1,000 feet above the valley floor, and they're connected by a ridge, and you can go up that ridge and where the ridge sort of flattens out before you get to these two huge pinnacles of rock, there's the remnants of an ancient structure there, an ancient Kiva, that would have been built by the Chacoan people. And this was one of the Chacoan outliers, part of the whole Chacon civilization that was pretty much covered the 10,000 square miles of the San Juan Basin in New Mexico, whose hub was Chaco Canyon. And there was a whole series of outliers that were places of observation, high pinnacle points that would have been probably used as a communication system.

Starting point is 00:09:16 We can pull some of this up and I can show you some of these slides. You'll kind of see how it work. But at chimney rock, the remains of a kiva are there. And if you position yourself at the right location within that kiva, which is circled. You peer through those two pinnacle rocks and it marks that position where you will see every 18.6 years you will see the moon rising in between those two rocks. And that's coming up later this year. So I'm thinking a little trip out there and the park, it's a national monument I believe. The park service that governs it is going to open it up so people can actually hike up the

Starting point is 00:10:01 ridge and get in that position and see the event? Let's go. I think it's... Let's go. I think... But I won't let you go, Randall. What's up with the moon? It's really strange.

Starting point is 00:10:13 You know, also the more dense material on the moon is above the less dense material, which is the opposite of the Earth. And it's similar to like a digging or excavation site. And so like actually the thing that got me onto this is there's a remote viewer named Ingo Swan. you were named Ingo Swan. Yes, I've heard of him. And he wrote a book called Penetration. And he was part of the CIA's Psychic Spy program called Stargate. And the latter half of the book, Penetration, is dedicated to his thoughts on the moon.

Starting point is 00:10:44 Okay. And he thought that the moon was a hollow spaceship. And there are other legends that involve the moon being a hollow artificial satellite or spaceship around the earth. And there's actually a Zulu legend that the moon brought. us out of the Younger Dryus and it made the climate stable on Earth. So what's a... Well, the Moon absolutely does help to stabilize the climate. That's a well-known fact.

Starting point is 00:11:13 I have a whole book up there on that. And you've seen evidence of various gaseous activity on the Moon? That's sort of unexplainable? Oh, yeah. The lunar transient phenomena is well, hundreds of examples of the Moon outgassing, outgassing carbon dioxide, outgassing water vapor, things like that. So anomalous lights things, it really looks like there's some kind of activity on the moon right now. I don't know the explanation for it.

Starting point is 00:11:42 I don't know why carbon dioxide is being outgassed from the moon. But carbon dioxide seems to suggest, well, carbon dioxide you associate with plants, with vegetation, water vapor. Well, you know, the moon's super weird. So Apollo 10, right, it took off from the moon and it rang like a bell. And NASA became very confused. Then in Apollo 11, they put seismometers in the moon to measure this effect. They intentionally crashed the booster, the first stage of the lunar module in Apollo 11 back onto the moon. And it rings like a bell for three hours.

Starting point is 00:12:19 Three hours. So they're like, what the hell's going on here? And it turns out that if you excavate, you know, if you dig on the moon, lower sediment, layers on the moon actually are newer than higher sediment layers. So it's the exact inverse. And it actually pattern matches to an excavation site. So you think that there might be a little camp out from this past civilization. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:12:43 But in the spirit of the outrageous hypothesis, let's consider it. Okay. I like that. And so why haven't we gone back? You know, 1969 and 1972, we went on all these cool missions. you had the NASA Saturn program, the Apollo programs, and we don't seem to be able to go back. You even have NASA admins saying,

Starting point is 00:13:05 we lost the technology. That's not even like a controversial, conspiratorial thing to say. The more conspiratorial thing would be that as a hoax or whatever. You know, the more prosaic explanation is that Nixon decided to pull the plug on the Apollo program because the Vietnam War was costing us so much money and we were going into death that he didn't feel like we had enough, you know, money to continue the program.

Starting point is 00:13:29 So they decommissioned the whole Saturn rocket fleet, which was really dumb and stupid, but that's what they did. And so, you know, you could make the argument, well, the Vietnam War won out over the Apollo program. There was probably more to it than that, but I don't know what that would be unless something was found that, you know. However, what might have been found? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:13:57 And there are civilizations pre-moon that talk about, they talk about, you know, the moon not existing. And then there's, you know, Sumerians talk about the pre-moon civilizations. And so what's up? That, I don't think that means what people think it means, because here's why. I think that it means something very interesting. But obviously, if you had the moon arriving into Earth orbit, during the time that humans would be here, arrival of the moon into Earth's orbit would be an extraordinary event and it would be profoundly catastrophic. So how do you think the moon formed? Well, that's part of the mystery. Come on, Randall.

Starting point is 00:14:39 Well, see, I don't necessarily have all the answers on that. But I will say this. As far as the moon, the structure of the moon, you're right that the moon is much less, it is slightly more than half as dense as the earth. So the interesting thing about the moon is if you get enough mass together, the gravitational attraction will overcome the resistance to deformation of the material. What that means is that if you have a small object, like say for example an astronomical object like Phobos or Demus, the moons of Mars, they're not spherical. There's not spherical. There's not a enough mass there to overcome the rigidity of the material. Hey, American Alchemy fans, after years of trying pretty much every shaving product under

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Starting point is 00:16:47 Use code Jesse, J-E-S-S-E at House of Atlas.com. That's a H-O-U-S-E-O-F-A-T-L-A-S dot com with promo code Jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for 15% off your new Razor Kit and before and after set. So stop wasting money and time on shaving products that don't look good, aren't effective, and cost way too much. Visit houseofatlas.com today. Trust me, you'll love it as much as I do. There's not enough mass there that the gravity attraction, the internal gravity, can overcome the resistance of the material and cause it to deform. Somewhere between, say, the moons of Mars and the moons of the Earth, you will get enough mass

Starting point is 00:17:35 where it does overtake, the gravity will overwhelm the rigidity of the material, it will deform into the shape which requires the least energy to maintain, which is a sphere. The mass of the moon is sufficient to do that, yet it hasn't done that. How do we know that? Well, there's a number of ways we know that. The most prominent way we know that is the fact that there is two moments of inertia in the moon. Let's see.

Starting point is 00:18:11 Grab like one of those wooden compasses off the top right there. I think, yeah, one of those. Let's see. Will that work? Is there another, let's see, there should be, is there anything else about it? their tubular. Your pen. That'll work.

Starting point is 00:18:26 That'll work. Okay, so I'm going to pull this pen as if it's locked into a single moment of inertia that coincides with its center of mass. Okay, now what I want you to do is try to grab each end of the pen and try to rotate it. No, rotate it into horizontal plane. See, I, you're going to easily overcome my resist. I'm going to resist and you, see, I can't.

Starting point is 00:18:52 See, I can't. Okay. Now, rotate it in the same plane. One moment of inertia, two moments of inertia. Okay, what you are, okay, so here is a spherically, radially symmetrical object. Let's imagine it is a sphere, and this is an axis, and you are Earth's gravity field. So, again, rotate it. Very little resistance, right?

Starting point is 00:19:26 But now you're Earth's gravity field and there's two moments of inertia. So what's happened there is the moon is locked into Earth's gravity field in a one-to-one coupling between the spin of the moon on its axis and its revolution about the Earth. One-to-one spin-orbit coupling. The moon has sufficient mass and low density that it should have deformed into the state of least energy, which is a sphere. Why hasn't it done that, Randall? Why hasn't it done that? What do you think?

Starting point is 00:20:08 Because there's obviously two moments of inertia. So why, and how do you explain the two moments of inertia if it's a natural object? Well, we have to come up with a, I mean, I'm not saying it's not a natural object. saying though is that the laws of physics as we know it don't seem to be applying here and if there's a natural explanation I don't know what it is. Do you have any unnatural theories? Not really. I'm not ready to go into some of the you know that the moon is an artificial object. Okay. I am willing to consider that the moon has been geoengineered. Okay. And how would it have been geoengineered? Well, by a civilization with a technology advanced enough that they would be able to.

Starting point is 00:20:56 Do you think Atlantis geoengineering? Well, now you're going to. It's very speculative. But now we get into the question of could there have been a civilization in the remote past that had technologies that we currently don't know about? And I think the answer is, yes, that is a plausible hypothesis that is not warranted by just summarily dismissing. How would they have geoengineered the moon? Well, if you look at the schemes for building lunar bases, have you ever looked at any NASA's ideas for building lunar bases?

Starting point is 00:21:37 No. I should pull up something here. If I got it handy, I will pull it up. Basically, the main problem with building a colony on the moon or any kind of a, facility on the moon is cosmic radiation. Right. So how do you solve the problem of cosmic radiation to which you are going to be subject on the surface of the moon?

Starting point is 00:22:06 You need some protective shielding, maybe a magnetic protective shielding. You could, which means you're thinking immediately something like one of the schemes is, and if I can find it here, I'll pull it up, one of the schemes is a dome-like structure. Yeah, something like that. Yes, you could do that. Or what would be another possibility?

Starting point is 00:22:24 go underground. Oh, so there you go. So it could be this hollow structure. Interesting. Hollow is an oversimplification. Okay. So there are maybe hollow parts of it. Now I think you're getting on to the...

Starting point is 00:22:45 Well, there's some people who are high up at NASA who have said there are hollow parts of the moon and that's the only explanation for it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this has actually been known since the Apollo days. has been speculated. It was Gordon MacDonald, I think, was his name. That's right, Gordon McDonald. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:02 Yeah. He was the one who first said that it's more like a hollow sphere. That's right. And there's a famous space advisor, I think he was NASA affiliated to Eisenhower named Gordon McDonald, who said the only way that the moon makes any sense is if it's hollow. But that's an oversimplified model. Like a simple, like if you picture a basketball. that has an outer shell, but completely empty.

Starting point is 00:23:30 It has maybe compartments or something. Do you think they're Atlantean survivors within the moon? He says with a Gourian, a sly Gourian. You already said yes on my show, and 800,000 people watched that. Did I say that? You said, well. You go, there's a loaded question, Jesse. And then you go, well, yes.

Starting point is 00:23:54 Do you believe that there are survivors of ancient Atlantis that are among us, perhaps with underwater bases or bases on the moon and advanced technology. I will just say very provisional. Well, let's put it this way. If there were ancient cultures, whether it was Atlantis or not, that's a whole, like a separate question. I think that questioning the existence of Atlantis is definitely valid. If we go through and we take line by line,

Starting point is 00:24:35 our primary source for information on Atlantis, which is play those two dialogues. And we actually break it down line by line. We look at the multiple translations. We look at even going back to the original Greek to determine some of the possible alternative translations of some of the words. So I think we can do that, but that's a conversation you've had with other people. And I feel like you have sort of evidence that is, you know, know, in the form of these sort of archaeological ruins that will always be hotly contested. And it's sort of hard to prove that that was Atlantis because the actual survivors have

Starting point is 00:25:17 been washed away. And then you have all these crazy UFO reports. And if there are any survivors that are on the moon or in underwater bases or anything like that, I almost feel like, especially given the current zeitgeist, that might be a more productive inroad into the Atlantis conversation. You know, I like to think outrageously sometimes in the spirit of outrageous hypotheses. You know, William R. Davis, who was the founding father of the science of geomorphology, excoriated back in the 20s, I believe it was, excoriated his colleagues for being overly conservative in their thinking

Starting point is 00:25:57 and not willing to consider new ideas. And he wrote a very famous paper called, which you might want to read. I bet you you could find it as a PDF form on Google. It's called the value of outrageous hypotheses. Love that. Yeah. So in the spirit of outrageous hypotheses, why don't we conjecture that given the at least 150 to 200,000 years

Starting point is 00:26:25 that we modern humans have been on this earth that consistent with a lot of the myths, flight was not discovered back by the Wright brothers but was rediscovered by, you know, was rediscovered by, you know, here's the perspective that I kind of consider. If we look at, you know, the dominance of just feudalism of subsistence farming, you know, that was up until the 17, 1800s and the scientific enlightenment, followed by the Industrial Revolution, that was pretty much 99% of the nearest population. When my grandparents were born in the 1890s, the primary mode of transportation, aside from rail,

Starting point is 00:27:19 was foot, horse, mule, you know, ships, of course, but obviously nobody had, well, the first automobiles, I guess, were just showing up in the mid-1890s. But then when I was born with no computers, we had no presence in space, if you look at how far and fast we've come scientifically in the last 200 years, and then if you were to think that, well, what if a cataclysm wiped out our modern civilization? And we had archaeologists coming and digging up looking for, you know, prehistory 10,000 years prior, well, would they find any evidence that we were even here? And the answer is, well, it depends on the severity and the intensity and magnitude of these

Starting point is 00:28:11 events. Now, if we start talking about the Younger Dryas, I think we can safely state that the Younger Dryas was a global catastrophe, and it evolved multiple factors, all of which would have done their part very effectively to erase any kind of civilization it might have existed, at least anything that might have looked like ours. Let's put it this way. If the younger dryest events were to be repeated now, well, 10,000 years from now, archaeologists would have a hard time finding any evidence that we were ever even here.

Starting point is 00:28:48 So what I'm getting at is that I think that you can interpret the evidence that there is a strong case for the existence of Atlantis. Now, if we look at what happened with Ancient Apocalypse, Graham Hancock's show, it got attacked on multiple fronts. It's all the establishment coming out. And, of course, if you dissect their attacks on the show, there's no substance to it. It's just name-calling.

Starting point is 00:29:16 It's every logical fallacy in the book, right? But if you go back to the original accounts, there's nothing there that's really so implausible that it couldn't have existed in some form or another. Well, the objections people have are, it was told that sort of a mythos festival, right, in the Teneas and Cretaceous account. And so, you know, there was a question of like how true the actual telling was.

Starting point is 00:29:44 And then the other sort of argument is they were supposed to have fought a war, I think, against Athens, and Athens wasn't around, you know, sort of 9,000 years prior. You've got a whole bunch of assumptions. Yeah. If you go back to, you know, the late Ice Age times, you know, you go back to the times that Plato was talking about. And his date is very interesting. You know, 9,000 years before Solon's exile to Egypt, right, which occurred in 600 BC. So the 9,600 BC, which is the end of the Younger Dryas.

Starting point is 00:30:19 Right. Precisely, the end of the Younger Dryus and Meltwater Pulse 1B. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you are going through something, anything, I always think talking about it helps. I've also always believed that taking care of your mental well-being is as essential as staying physically fit, especially when life keeps you on the go. For me, it's interviews, projects, and travel. Sometimes you just need to blow off some steam.

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Starting point is 00:31:56 After you sign up, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. That would go a long way. Now, to me, that is quite an amazing coincidence that you have a very rapid pulse of sea level rise. At the same time, Plato is saying that there were islands in the Atlantic that sank due to seismic events. And one of the things I've done is gone in and studied the marine geology and oceanography of the Atlantic Ocean Basin. And it's right there. There is overwhelming evidence of major subsidence on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, particularly concentrated along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.

Starting point is 00:32:38 You don't happen to have any slides around this, do you, Randall? Well, I do. Really? I actually do, yeah. Should we get into it? I'd love to, you know. While you're pulling that up, Randall, do you think that there's any sort of sacred geometry

Starting point is 00:32:53 about the human body that allows it to tap in? What is that? Well, it's primarily the golden section, also known as the divine proportion, where also known as the extreme and mean ratio, which is basically, well, this right here actually is a compass that demonstrates that ratio, where the ratio of the small segment to the large segment is exactly the same

Starting point is 00:33:24 as the ratio of the large segment to the whole. You know what else displays that, the moon? How so? I believe that the moon is one four hundredth the size of the sun or something, or what, you tell me, what is it? It's the distance between the... You have a proportional relationship between diameters and distance. Yes.

Starting point is 00:33:50 The sun is 400 times larger than the moon and 400 times farther away. Okay, so what's up with that? There we go. That's weird. I mean, what is up with that? I don't know. I've been thinking about that for decades. That's where you're here to tell me, Randall.

Starting point is 00:34:06 Like, what is up with that? That's weird. How is it that, well, see, what's up? See, here we get into the fact that that's just one interesting item. in a whole array of weird coincidences about this reality that we inhabit. When we look at the whole solar system, the whole solar system looks curiously like a work of architecture. Like when you begin looking at the ratios of planetary sizes, masses, distances, there's some really interesting things going on, which if you change the parameters even a little bit.

Starting point is 00:34:45 For example, the masses and distance spacing of the four larger outer planets are precisely what they need to be to transfer comets from the inner zone of the Khyper disk into the inner solar system. If you were to change the spacing or the masses, this whole phenomena of capturing comets out of the Kuiper disk, transferring them into the inner solar system would cease. Why would it, you know, comet airbursts from the torrid meteor stream correlate with solar storms? It would not on the earth, but if you have a major influx of a cometary mass into the inner solar system. And so here, going back to the torrid meteor stream, here is right now the idea that's coming from the new catastrophists that actually go back to 1980 in the British, Miles, Victor Klub, William Napier, William Asher, several others, also some Australian astronomers that theorized that about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago, a gigantic comet, maybe 50 to 60 mile

Starting point is 00:36:00 diameter nucleus or even bigger, came that was captured into a sub-Jovian orbit, meaning that it's traveling around in the inner solar system between the Sun and Jupiter, that this This huge comet began to undergo a system of hierarchical system of breakups, forming ever smaller cometary nuclei pieces that then went under, again, another process of breaking up, which ultimately led to the Torrid Meteor Stream. Now, in the early days of a cometary destruction like that... This was the Comet Anki? Comet Anki.

Starting point is 00:36:40 No, that's good. That's good. wouldn't have been the progenitor comet, it would have been one of the secondary or tertiary comets from the breakup of the original. Got it. Does that make sense? Yes. So in early times, going back 10, 12, 15,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, this debris has not

Starting point is 00:37:01 cleared out. It's very dense within the stream of the toroid media stream. The earth crosses that stream twice each year. crosses. So picture this, Jupiter, the sun. The stream comes around the sun. It makes it perihelian passage around the sun, goes out, goes, it loops back in just inside Jupiter like this. And so it's streaming around like this and it lays close to the plane of the ecliptic and Earth passes through that stream twice each year in its orbit. When that stuff is coming from its perihelian passage behind the sun. The earth, that's the summertime torids, which

Starting point is 00:37:46 occur in late June and early July. Now the earth is moving and then it comes to the fall time torrids that are coming in towards the sun, but coming from apparently space. Now all meter streams are named after the constellation that you would look at to see which direction you're emanating from. The torids, obviously, are named after the constellation Taurus. And specifically, they're almost, the radiant point is almost targeted right on the Pleiades, which is the shoulder of the bull in the classical depictions. So in the fall time, oh shit, I forgot to mention that today. We are right now, today, tomorrow, the next day in the peak of the torrid meteor stream.

Starting point is 00:38:38 That's kind of scary. Well, at this point, most of this stuff has been, it's very diffused. It's not, however. But you were answering the question as to why the sun would be involved. Here's what I'm getting at. Okay. What we now have is evidence that the infall of meteorites into the sun can trigger solar outbursts.

Starting point is 00:39:02 So coronal mass ejections because it's in-tale. Well, that's amazing. Okay, so interesting. So that's sort of this hybrid. It's almost like this toward meteor stream sets off a chain of other calamities because you're talking about seismic activity, volcanic activity, sun activity. Yes, I think that's the way you have to look at it. We're looking at a coherent system. What I think is we're getting to the point where we can now understand kind of almost a unified process where the motion of the planets, the sun, the ingress of cosmic material coming from the Khyper disk or the Urt cloud can have profound effects on the planets and the sun. So all of your ideas around, you know, cyclical cataclysms when it comes to the Tord Meteor stream

Starting point is 00:39:51 wouldn't be made possible without that sort of architecture to the solar system. And see, so what happens is it's the conjunctions of the large outer planets that can perturb the comets in the inner zone of the Kuiper disk, which are in very quasi-stable orbits, which means that if you have, imagine that you've got a flat surface and you put a sphere on it. Well, if you have an impulse in any direction, it can move, right? Now suppose you have a dimple in a flat plane and you put your sphere in there. Well, now it's going to take a whole lot more force to move that, because you've got to overcome the fact that it's sitting in this depression, a basin, see? Suppose on the other hand it's sitting on top of a hill.

Starting point is 00:40:38 And it's sitting there as long as nothing disturbs it. It sits there precariously perched. But a little bit of force pushed on it, it begins rolling down, quasi-stable. So comets on the inner portion of the Kuiper disk are quasi-stable. So what that means is that the consequence of that is the conjunctions of the large outer planets. When they conjunct, like let's say you have Uranus and then you have Neptune. So when they're on opposite sides of the orbit, whatever influence they have just is minimal or it cancels each other out.

Starting point is 00:41:18 Okay, but now Uranus is on a faster orbit than Neptune, so it's coming along like this and as it's catching up, the gravity fields of the two objects will combine. Now let's say you've got comets, picture this big disk, it's rotating slowly about the sun. It's way out there outside the orbit of Neptune. It's rotating, right? They're not just sitting there, the whole disk is rotating. So now you have Uranus and Neptune. They combine their gravity fields so the gravity is pulling and you've got a comet out here.

Starting point is 00:41:54 So that combined gravity pulling on that. What's it going to do? like putting on the brakes. Okay. Now, on the other hand, let's say that a comet is behind it as you're getting this conjunction. So now,

Starting point is 00:42:08 these combined masses of Uranus and Neptune are in front of the comet. They're all moving in the same direction. Now the gravity field is pulling. It's going to accelerate. Okay, so now, how does the comet then respond to a deceleration or an acceleration?

Starting point is 00:42:24 An acceleration will move it to a higher orbital level. It'll speed up and it'll move out. It'll move away from the sun. If it's decelerated, it will move in. Does that make sense? As it slows down, it sort of falls in closer to the sun. When it does that, it now comes within the zone of the planets.

Starting point is 00:42:48 Saturn, Uranus. So now you've got comets within the orbit of Neptune. Think Saturn Uranus, same thing. if they break, if they slow down the orbits, it'll transfer in, it'll come inside the orbit of Saturn. Now the big daddy, granddaddy, of planetary masses of Jupiter. Then it'll be Jupiter that in most cases the determinant, picture Jupiter with the thunderstorm. So Jupiter is sort of the... Jupiter will grab that comet and either throw it back out towards the outer, outside the planetary orbits,

Starting point is 00:43:26 or he'll throw it down towards the sun. Now that comet gets caught in that game of cosmic ping pong where it's back and forth between the Jovean orbit and the sun. So it's doing this. And now what happens is with that transfer of the comet into the zone of the planet... What determines whether Jupiter throws it towards the sun? Same principle.

Starting point is 00:43:51 Same principle. Here's Jupiter. It's going around the sun. So it's accelerating then it. Right. Here comes the comet. It's rotating this way and here comes Jupiter. So as it's coming up like this,

Starting point is 00:44:02 gravity is pulling on it, slowing it down, and it falls in towards the sun. That's what does it. So it's the huge mass of Jupiter's gravity. Aren't we about to hit a particularly heavy time for the torrid meteor stream? Well, twice each year the Earth crosses the Torrid Meteor stream. That's what September?

Starting point is 00:44:24 The end of October, the fall. the fall Torah is sometimes referred to as Halloween meteors and I gave a whole I've got a whole presentation I did last Halloween or a day or two before Halloween

Starting point is 00:44:37 where I talked about the connection between the ancient origins of our Halloween celebration and the Torrid Meteor Sauer interesting what are the how do those connect at all well because for one

Starting point is 00:44:51 because for one of the things You see, like the Earth crosses the Torrid Meteor Stream twice each year. And actually, after the break, I'll pull up a graphic. And I'll show you the graphic. And what too much? So it's September? No. Late October, early November.

Starting point is 00:45:08 Early November. It takes about a week for Earth to cross. It's a southern and the northern torrid, so the distinct area. Yes. Then in late June, early July, if we can picture, let's push your cup over here, or the coast, We can use the coaster. There we go. That'll be the sun.

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Starting point is 00:46:40 Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Don't blend in with the crowd. Stand out with Chubbies. Okay. And this is the earth. Now the earth is going around the sun, right? Yeah. Okay. So here's what happens. Here, picture that the torids are coming in, Jupiter's out there, somewhere up there where the screen is. The torrid meteor stream is coming in like this. It makes a perihelian passage around the sun, which is its closest passage to the sun. Then it's coming out.

Starting point is 00:47:13 Now, bear in mind that as these meteors are coming in, as they're getting closer drawn into the sun's massive gravity field, they're accelerating. right so they come flying in going faster and faster they make that round make the perihelian passage then they come out and immediately now they're moving against the sun's gravity so the sun is now slowing them down so now picture it's slowing down and slowing down and then eventually it gets far enough out that Jupiter's gravity field has a stronger attraction on it than the sun's Jupiter will begin accelerating it and then it'll come out, it'll round Jupiter, or sometimes it won't go out as far as Jupiter, it'll fall back. But in any case, you can picture it's making this orbit like this.

Starting point is 00:48:07 The Torrid Meteor stream is, lays very close to the plane of the ecliptic, which is Earth's orbital plane. Now, if most comets that come in from the Kuiper disk are going to be ecliptic plane comets, because the Kuiper disk, because the Kuiper disc, picture, it's like a disk, and it's in that same roughly 15, 16 degree band that the zodiacal belt is and which the planets move, right? Now, the Orch cloud, which is outside of there, is a sphere. If a comet comes in from your cloud, it can come in at any angle, right? And usually what that means is that it comes in and the geometry of its orbit will be described by a parabola.

Starting point is 00:48:54 which is an open-ended conic section, whereas a jovian orbit is a closed ellipse. So if you can observe a comet and make enough observations over long enough period of time, you can determine whether it's orbital geometry is elliptical or parabolic. If it's parabolic, it's open. So what that means, it's coming in, circling the sun, going out, never to return. If it's elliptical, you know it's going to be periodic.

Starting point is 00:49:21 Toward meteor stream... So that accounts for genes. The gene torrid. The june torrid. The whole stream is elliptical. Okay. The whole stream, just picture a stream of material and it's elliptical. The stream itself is elliptical.

Starting point is 00:49:36 Okay, so now, Earth's orbit intersects that in two places. It intersects the torrid stream in late June, early July, and then again in late October, early November. Now, here's the thing you have to grasp. The summertime torrid, when the Earth is. crossing the stream, that stream is coming from around, it's just made its perihelian passage around the sun. So if you were to look in the sky towards the radiant point from which those meteors are emanating, you're looking right up towards the sun. So what is that going to do to your visibility of the meteors? They're going to be hard to detect, hard to see. On the other

Starting point is 00:50:18 hand, when you go to late October, the stream is coming in from this way. So when you're looking upstream, you're looking away from the sun. You'll see light showers. So now you'll see the meteors. Right? And you'll be able to see the radiant point. And the radiant point is that point in space from which the meteors

Starting point is 00:50:38 appear to be emerging. Right? And you have, you know, one example would be Comet Shoemaker Levy 9, which was a half mile wide in diameter. And that caused basically when it impacted you.

Starting point is 00:50:53 Jupiter, it was 600 times all of the nuclear TNT. The interesting thing about Shoemaker-Levy 9 was that it was a single comet nucleus. It passed very close to Jupiter within the zone called the Roche Limit. Okay, the Roche limit is the limit whereby the gravity field of a primary mass can overcome a second, and caused the disaggregation of a secondary mass. Now, Jupiter has this massive powerful gravity field. A comet nucleus is a very friable. It's not a strongly bound object, like an iron asteroid, right?

Starting point is 00:51:41 It can break apart. Shoemaker Levy 9 passed within the Roche limit of Jupiter. The really powerful gravity field of Jupiter ripped it apart, and what had been one nucleus broke into 21 separate objects. Those 21 separate objects then began to spread out in a so-called string of pearls and that made one orbit around the sun

Starting point is 00:52:09 and came back out and crossed, intersected the orbit of Jupiter at precisely the time Jupiter was there. Most likely what had been happening is, you know, it had been orbiting Jupiter dozens, if not hundreds of times. And every time getting a little closer, every time it went out there, it was drawn in a little tighter. We discovered it right at that point where it was making its final passage, right?

Starting point is 00:52:39 It may have made dozens of passages before that. We discovered it right at the beginning of its final passage when it had just been ripped apart and was now 21 pieces. So in, I think, the second week of July, 1994, those 21 pieces impacted Jupiter. Impacted Jupiter. Yes, and any one of them. And that was 600 times the entire nuclear arsenal on Earth in terms of its destructive fourth.

Starting point is 00:53:07 And what's kind of worrying is I looked at the NASA DART mission and, you know, that was a spacecraft, I think was knocking into dimorphis, which was a... Yeah, dimorphous, which is actually two objects. That's why it's two, die means two. Right. Yeah. But the spacecraft was, you know, was pretty small. And dimorphous is pretty small.

Starting point is 00:53:30 Dymorphis is what? Like 250 meters or something. Yeah, it was small. So it's, you know, you're talking about a half mile wide versus 250 meters. I still worry about, you know. And rightfully so. Yeah. Rightfully so.

Starting point is 00:53:44 Now, the thing is, the larger object, really, the more lead time you need. And if we find an object, see, and just like with Jupiter, with Shoemaker Levy 9, it took three months of observations. Because you basically need two things. You need the velocity and you need the geometry of the orbit. When you have those two of what are called the orbital elements, you can now make accurate predictions about when and where something is going to be in its orbit. So when you describe the solar system as it's set up to almost funnel in material from outside of the Khyber Belt,

Starting point is 00:54:17 you're almost talking about or touching on this, you know, sort of anthropic principle, this idea that a fine-tuning principle. Like if Plank's constant were slightly different, you know, gravity would be different. The whole climate of the Earth would be different. Yes. Do you think that the solar system was intelligently designed? Well, see, here we get into some really deep questions that I, you know, I say intelligently designed. I'm almost, you know, my philosophy of life, spirituality and say, is this?

Starting point is 00:54:47 that the entire universe seems to have intelligence. But what does that even mean? I don't know, it's almost beyond my comprehension. But let's put it this way. I was totally an atheist. And I knew about, and I studied these extremely narrow range of parameters within which it seems higher life is even possible. Right?

Starting point is 00:55:14 If I was an atheist, I would have to conclude this, that our solar system is extremely unique in that it has exactly these extremely narrowly defined parameters that has allowed life to emerge, first of all, even to emerge on Earth, second to get from single cell microbial life up to us. For example, we talked about the moon earlier. If you take the moon away, there's no intertidal zone.

Starting point is 00:55:43 So fine, let's say. Not to mention the Earth would be not rotating in a stable way around its axis. It would be wobbles. The moon, actually think of the moon as like a great stabilizing force. Yes. That helps keep the earth

Starting point is 00:55:56 locked into its 23 and a half degree tilt. Another reason it might be geomagnetically engineered. Yeah, well, see, I'm so mind-boggled at the whole situation that I try to wrap my head around. And it seems like no matter what explanation I come up with, It's just beyond our ability to even fathom. Well, do you think that NASA might have figured something out?

Starting point is 00:56:24 Because, I mean, obviously there are all these sort of conspiracies around Neil Armstrong comes back. He gives his speech three weeks afterwards, and he's giving a speech, and he looks kind of, he goes, this is a big step for mankind. And he looks very kind of scared and sheepish, and like he's been, you know, dragged out there and possibly traumatized, you know, around what he saw. And so, yeah, is there something that we're missing in terms of the, the story with the moon. You know, is there, there's a lot more missing.

Starting point is 00:56:51 Was this created sort of as a noble mythology around the space race with the Soviets where we wanted to encourage, maybe rightly so, you know, technological innovation and exploration and the knowledge of a final frontier? But maybe, maybe, you know, we sacrificed ontological truth in the process. Perhaps, or we're getting closer to it. I mean, you know, what I try to do is, I say, you know, there are cosmological and epistemological questions that I don't know if I could answer.

Starting point is 00:57:27 So I kind of like bring it in a little closer. And I think like in terms of this, if we look at the very narrow range of parameters that we see in our particular solar system, I was about to say about the moon creating this intertidal zone, you know, and if you're, let's say you're geoengineering a planet and you're introducing life into the marine realm. You have to have an ocean, first of all. You introduce life into there, but in order to get the higher life, you have to bring it out onto the land.

Starting point is 00:57:59 If that's a requirement to get higher sentient beings with, you know, 1,100 cubic centimeter cranial capacities able to think and reason and all of the things that go along with our intelligence, you have to go through a certain sequence of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, transitional phases. Well, to get from the ocean onto land would be impossible, essentially, without an intermediary zone where species could make that transition

Starting point is 00:58:31 from an exclusively marine existence to an exclusively terrestrial existence. That's provided by the intertidal zone. You know, even earlier, early speculations about the origins of life always went to these, you know, the tide pools. that form in the intertidal zone as being the optimum nurturing place for multi-celled life. You get all sorts of chemical reactions for primordial soup.

Starting point is 00:58:58 But you take the moon away, you got no intertidal zone. Now it's a whole lot trickier to get life from the ocean onto the land. Do you think in some ways maybe we're part of a cosmic war and that if you had to describe the two factions sort of very roughly speaking, there's maybe one celestial faction that minds humanity for consciousness or sort of wants to keep us sort of in the fetal position or repressed or dumbed down and maybe a la roswell a lot of our internet technology was sort of dropped by these people to distract us constantly or not by not people but beings and then there's some other you know there's some other entities that are maybe you know want us to ascend to their level and want us to, so you, the dichotomy would be described by like,

Starting point is 00:59:50 you know, Antichrist and Armageddon. And, you know, on the one hand, you know, the apocalypse, the great unveiling, you can, you see more. And then on the other hand, you know, we're sort of chained to our little cubicles and we're maybe being mined for something, you know, uh, not, not, not, you know, uh, unwittingly, if that makes sense. That's an interesting scenario, and I'm not sure if I necessarily go along with it. You know, I don't rule out the possibility of interstellar contact. I tend to be skeptical about the UFO phenomena being interstellar. You think it's sort of non-Capernican.

Starting point is 01:00:35 You think it's Earth-based. If you talk to Jacques Malay, he would say that they've been with us for thousands of years. and they're sort of controlling, like the Earth in many ways is like, you know, they're upping and lowering the thermostat, and they have a control system, and religion has a proto-architecture that maybe these beings have created. Well, see, that's where my thinking, where I tend to, is not so much these beings as being the other, but basically just being a separate branch of humanity.

Starting point is 01:01:05 So, interesting. Okay, so let's get into that. So are these the Atlanteans? Well, there are traditions going back to the Chaldeans, to the Samarians. I mean, I think Rob brought, do we have it right here, the Chaldean account of, I don't know if I could find the passage immediately, but there are references to when, for example, the great catastrophe overwhelmed the earth, the gods.

Starting point is 01:01:36 Is your point that maybe at every civilizational cycle when there's cataclysm, some subset saves themselves. Yes. Interesting. Yes. In fact, I think there is a tradition that's been handed down. No, this is speculative, but I think that one could make a pretty strong circumstantial case. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:01:58 That there has existed since prehistoric times a tradition about these great cycles and how the planet is subject to periodic catastrophes. Let me... Do you think we're verging on one now? Let me put it this way. I think that what happens is, here's the analogy I've used many times, I think it's an appropriate analogy. Suppose you're on a big race track and you're in a car, you're driving along and there's

Starting point is 01:02:28 nobody else on the racetrack. Let's say it's a country road and it's a huge big elliptical highway you're on and there's nobody on it, right? No traffic. All right, so you're listening to your headphones, you're maybe texting while you're driving because it's cool. You're going down a country road, nice space it's country road, and there's nobody else on it, right? You don't drive with the same attention and the same type of awareness as you do with during rush hour traffic, obviously, right? I love driving on country roads when there's no other traffic and just sitting back enjoying the scenery, listening to some tunes, maybe, you know, having a tote.

Starting point is 01:03:10 now and then, or at least back in the old days. In the old days. Not anymore. Not anymore. No, not anymore. That is the way back in the old days. But suppose you're driving down the road and up ahead there's an intersection and it's a busy highway that crosses the road you're on and there's traffic coming and going or maybe it's

Starting point is 01:03:31 one way. They're all going in the same direction. For a little while, when you're crossing that intersection, the probabilities are possibilities of an impact of having a crash go up by orders of magnitude. Now, as you're traversing that intersection, at this point, now you need to be cautious. You need to be aware of what you're doing, presumably if you can accelerate or break as you need to. But let's say you're in a car where you have no control over.

Starting point is 01:04:04 It's one of maybe, what do they call it, the robot, the car, self-driving cars? You're on a self-driving cars. So, okay, so now you're coming up to this intersection. You've got to go, well, I hope that there's a space when I come up there. Now, the probabilities of an impact of a crash are going to be totally dependent upon the density of the traffic. Do you think this is the hermetic reason to try to get to the moon? We'll come back to that. Good question.

Starting point is 01:04:31 Come back to that. So, to complete the analogy is this. if you know that there are periods where you're crossing the intersection, there's two things to take away from this. It's not necessarily foreordained that you're going to 100% every time you're going to have a crash. It simply means that the periodicity is that there are zones where the susceptibility of a crash increases by orders of magnitude. Right?

Starting point is 01:04:59 I think this is an analogy of kind of like what we're in. There are places like, for example, let's say that there's a red light somewhere, down on this highway that you're crossing. So what happens is a red light. If there's no red lights, cars naturally get spread out. Cinematically, that's called. Okay. If there's a red light, everybody gets clustered.

Starting point is 01:05:23 Right? So the red light changes to green. And now instead of cars spread out, they're clustered and they're moving along together, right? Let's say that for whatever reason, as you're crossing the highway, there are zones where the density is fairly low, but there's other places where the density is high. Now, instead of a highway you're crossing, you're crossing a meteor stream. Depending on how old that meteor stream is, is going to determine how spread out the stuff is and whether or not there are clusters, clumps, if you will, within that orbit. That's exactly analogous to the to the torrid meteor stream. If you know that we cross that torrid meteor stream twice each year and that within that stream,

Starting point is 01:06:13 which covers millions of miles, there are clumps. If you knew that, you know what, in such and such year, for 10 years, we're going to be crossing the stream when there's a high density clump. there. Okay, so now you know that the probabilities, the danger, it's not, again, four ordained, that there's absolutely certain you're going to have an impact. But what you know is, is that the possibility of an impact goes up exponentially. Now, if you're a civilization and you know that and you're aware of that, what do you do? How do you plan for such a thing? I'd say there's two things. One, you try to take preventative action.

Starting point is 01:06:58 somehow to prevent the crashes, to prevent that. How do you do that? Well, the idea I like most is that you are actually able to move stuff out of the way. If you've got an advanced enough civilization, and we saw the very, very first attempts at that with the DART mission. Imagine that we continue the DART experiments for another 50 or 100 years. I'd say we're probably going to be pretty good at being able to nudge dangerous asteroids out of the way.

Starting point is 01:07:30 Maybe you get the second stage of Starship, which is much bigger. There we go. Exactly. There you go. That might be able to move something bigger. But let's say that you also know that there might be circumstances where particularly if you're in a clump, if the difference between a single asteroid and the shower of a fragmented comet nucleus will actually be two very different scenarios.

Starting point is 01:07:58 because in a commentary shower, you might have hundreds of objects. Now, the other thing, I said in the summertime torrents, late June, early July, what happened in late June of 1908? Tunguska. Tunguska. Isn't there speculation that the 1908 TenguSka event was possibly? Correct, correct, because the Tunguska event took place on the 30th of June 1900. It was an airburst.

Starting point is 01:08:26 They exploded in the air. flattened 2,000 square miles of trees, didn't kill anybody because it was over an uninhabited area of Siberia, but did enormous, enormous damage. And the fact that it occurred on the 30th of June suggests very strongly that it was part of the Torrid Meteor stream because that is the peak of the Torrid's in June. Almost certainly a member of the Torrid Meteor stream.

Starting point is 01:08:49 June 30th. June 30th. And it also, actually, it's radiant point where it came from space. Remember, here's the sun, right? exactly where it needed to be if it was a member of the TARD So the second thing you would do outside of deflection technology

Starting point is 01:09:04 is move underground. Move to a place of refuge. Or a place of refuge, which could be the moon. Which could be off planet. And to a civilization with spacefaring capabilities, to me, the moon

Starting point is 01:09:20 would be the logical place. So why would they have some sort of prime directive of non-interference if they're so far advanced you know so let's just to see what's this is we're crazy speculative territory here I know that you know you're not you're not saying any of this is true but say that there's aspects of the Atlanteans say that there are groups of Atlanteans that save themselves and moved into sort of compartments of the moon and and maybe they're the UFOs that

Starting point is 01:09:51 we've been seeing maybe they use sort of water on earth to refuel maybe they're actually underwater bases as well well, again, crazy speculation. If that's true, why do they seem to be so weakly entangled with human beings? Why don't they just present themselves to us? I would say this. I think as we advance, like I look at what's happening right now and I look at what our own government has done since World War II. It's interfered and intervened in a hundred different things. You know, engineering, you know, elections, organizing coups, you know, economic interference, political interference, military interference.

Starting point is 01:10:40 And what we see now is we're sitting here moving close to a major confrontation with the greatest nuclear power on Earth. Yeah, that's pretty scary. For what? For what purpose, ultimately, is the end game of us trying to control eastern Ukraine? You know, man, it's, yeah, no, that's crazy. And it's provocatory. Yes, it is.

Starting point is 01:11:03 And it's scary. I think, as of today, the Russians dispatched this nuclear ship, and it's now above Norway. And so, and then, you know, we just ordered all of our citizens to leave Russia. And, you know, we have no idea why. This is very scary. Crazy, crazy shit. And I think Putin has a tattoo that has been a knee for no man. and, you know, obviously was president of the, not the KGB, the FSB, or were very involved in the KGB.

Starting point is 01:11:33 Not a thug, not a good guy. Now here's, yeah, he doesn't, you know, none of the Soviet leaders were good guys, but we managed to avoid war with them. We carried on diplomatic relations. That's how we avoided war, right? You know, Roosevelt met with Stalin. Stalin was way worse than Putin. Way worse. Way worse. Yeah, and I mean... Stalin was Time Magazine's man of the year in 1945.

Starting point is 01:12:03 Yeah, I was, well, yeah. But so we've, you know, from, you know, from Stalin through Khrushchev, through, you know, Andropov, Kasegan, Yeltsin, Mikhail Gorbachev. We have carried on dialogues. Mm-hmm. Right? This is not going on now.

Starting point is 01:12:25 Well, here's what... My basic mapping of the world is it's almost like the globalist forces that repressed war over the last 70 years, like the sort of neoliberal order, is in its death throws. Well, I'm hoping, see, and this circles back to your question, I think that what we have now is we have a belligerently interventionist foreign policy. I think that if we evolved to where our leaders were wise, you know, and looking at the long-term picture, they would realize that this kind of intervention is ultimately going to lead to the demise of civilization. Well, the U.S. is running a loop that worked for some time.

Starting point is 01:13:12 You know, it worked, and then you had a desert storm, and then you get Iraq in 2003, and it's just continuous, like sort of false flag, create an auspice and then you go in and you know the dollars it's a petro dollar it's tied to oil and so you create all these sort of mandates to be you know pretty aggressive and and almost be kind of a neo-imperial regime and it and it really did work for a long time but it worked in a regime of economic growth and domestic you know relative domestic peace and it doesn't it feels like a cargo cult now like it's not working you're running this like kind of loop that doesn't really work anymore. And so it's scary. It is scary. And it's it's leading us into a confrontation

Starting point is 01:13:56 because there's no see when you go back to the days of you know the diplomacy and you actually had people running this country who I think had some level of consciousness about them. When you look at some of the the great leaders after World War II, you know, going say John Kennedy, he was to me a preeminent example of somebody who you can even see the wisdom just in a few years that 's emerging in his

Starting point is 01:14:27 understanding of the world we can certainly get into all the discussion of his assassination and all of that I think that was a major turning point. But they didn't make people like even him today. He won a purple heart I think in Vietnam or sorry no he want a purple heart in World War II

Starting point is 01:14:45 because he like dragged one of his people, crewmen on, of his ship by his teeth to shore, two miles. He swam, he saved the guy's life. Yeah. And then they were like, you know, on the beach somewhere for like two days until somebody in the air finally found them. Fighter pilot finally found them. And so, you know, that's not today's leaders. That's not, you know, you can't find that anymore.

Starting point is 01:15:14 It is not. And that's him. And, you know, people then would probably call him. call him soft compared to like Theodore Roosevelt. Perhaps so. But here's, I guess the point would be this. I think that if we survive as a civilization on this planet, it's going to become because the dominant powers basically become non-interventionist.

Starting point is 01:15:38 In other words, I have neighbors next door here and we're friends and we communicate in this. We don't fight. I don't intervene in their business they don't intervene in mine and because we don't do that we get along what we have now is a government that's

Starting point is 01:15:58 totally committed to intervention around the entire world this is full spectrum dominance this is global hegemony this is what there's a cabal within the US government that wants to dominate the entire planet and one of the things

Starting point is 01:16:12 the greatest obstacles to that dominance is Russia because for one thing, Russia isn't buying into the New World Order bullshit. And they've decided that they're going to disconnect from the American dollar and perhaps even go back to gold. Do you think that there is kind of a paramilitary group or their kind of old wealthy families that might have leverage over the United States beyond the kind of prima facie?

Starting point is 01:16:40 It seems like it. I don't know if there's really any hidden hands so much as I, I'm kind of more of the mind that we can figure out and see who the key players are. Do you think there are elements of the U.S. government that have retrieved alien craft and are reverse engineering it? Well, now see, that brings us back to the other question. If you ask that we haven't really answered yet, is why, you ask this, why have they not, if these hypothetical entities living wherever and we're speculating the perhaps based on the moon. You asked why they haven't intervened.

Starting point is 01:17:20 Yeah, why do they drop little things here at most? I would think that's exactly how we would do it. If we, you brought up the cargo cults, if we were trying to make contact with a primitive civilization, let's say that there's a civilization on an island that, you know, I mean, even going into the 20th century, we know that there were advanced industrial cultures, living almost side by side with primitive hunter-gatherer cultures.

Starting point is 01:17:48 Say you're Indian now and you want to affect the North Sentinelese who haven't been touched, basically. What do you do? Would you act like the Atlanteans on the moon or acting towards us? I would think that's how you would do it. So in your mind, what have they been doing? They've been airdropping tech here and there and maybe whispering in scientists years. They've been showing up in our skies to let us know that, hey, there's something bigger going on here. And I don't think we need to go to the stars and think extraterrestrial for that.

Starting point is 01:18:20 Yeah. Because I think we could make the case that, and this actually fits quite well with some of the ancient traditions, that humanity has split on maybe even several occasions. And if we were faced with the kind of disaster on the scale of the younger dry us, now, And we knew that, you know, a large comet comes into the inner solar system when we are observing it on a monthly and yearly basis undergoing a hierarchy of fragmentation events. And we know that sooner or later we're going to have encounters where it's very likely that this planet gets pummeled. What do we do? Well, we could do a bunch of things.

Starting point is 01:19:08 But the main thing is we create a place of refuge. And the logical place, and this is even scenarios that have been proffered by NASA, is that a logical place for us to create a place of refuge would be the moon. And this is being presented with no reference whatsoever to the possibility that this may have once or more than once happened before. And in fact, think about this, Jesse. What if there was a tradition that there was an ongoing place of refuge, just like, Think about the book, How the Irish Save Civilization. What happened during those dark ages of the 500s to like the 900s, 400 years, where the forward momentum of civilization almost came to a screeching halt.

Starting point is 01:20:00 And we can see, excuse me, we can see the effects weren't just cultural. They were also natural. We can see that there was literal times of darkness. The years 536 to 542 AD were periods where, you know, the records of the monks and the people who are living through that time talk about weeks and months at a time when they couldn't see the sun. That could be the result of two things. It could be a spasm of volcanic activity that fills the atmosphere with stuff, or it could be close encounters with disintegrating comets. Fred Hoyle has done a whole scenario where some of the participants. particulate matter of a disintegrating comet nuclei would so saturate the upper atmosphere and

Starting point is 01:20:48 have to be so highly reflective that it would, that the thermal energy of the sun would get radiated back into space and it would do two things that would create perpetual absence of the sun from the visible sun in the sky and it would also cause a plunge in the temperature. Those two things seem to have happened simultaneously in that period in the mid-sixth century. This in turn led to pretty much a collapse of civilization that took around 400 years for civilization, at least in Europe anyway, to recover. And that recovery occurred once the cold and the dark dissipated in the warmth of the medieval warm period came back again in between around 1000 AD.

Starting point is 01:21:37 Right? Now think of it this way. You had during that period of time, like you can, again, I would recommend the book how the Irish saved civilization, because during that time, the Irish retreated into a series of monasteries. And what they did was they dedicated themselves to preserving as much of the knowledge of the times, the historical records, the traditions, to keep all the, you know, of that alive. And so you have druidic and Celtic traditions being preserved in these monasteries. And when the climate of the earth ameliorated again with the return of the warmth and the sun, they were there with their books. They were there with their traditions that they

Starting point is 01:22:29 had preserved. This helped to accelerate the recovery of Western civilization. So, but if you're the Atlanteans, why don't you just come down and you say, hey, we have this advanced technology, we can get a bunch of you up to the moon? Are they waiting to see who's worthy? Is that it? Well, there could be a number of reasons for that. There's limited space on the moon? I'm thinking, well, that, well, there might be more space than you would anticipate. But the, the Earth is, the moon is a fourth of the Earth size. Is that right? It's like a quarter. It's like a quarter. I think. Let's see. Yeah, the moon is to the Earth as 11 is to three.

Starting point is 01:23:09 Okay, so yeah, roughly. Yeah. Okay. 11 to 3 is very close to the Earth moon diameter ratios. Do you worry about a cataclysm, or maybe answer that question first? Yeah, so why don't they interfere with us more indirectly, or why don't they try to help us more directly? Well, I think that part of it is, I think they have a very strict, and of course, purely speculative, but it would, would seem to me that if you advance to that level, you would most likely practice a strict

Starting point is 01:23:39 non-interventionist policy. Why is that? Well, the same reason, because there's always downsides. Whenever we intervene, there's always a downside. Oh, we're going to intervene with our foreign aid. Well, what happens? The foreign aid doesn't go to the recipients. It goes to a bunch of oligarchs and dictators who use it to oppress their people.

Starting point is 01:23:58 Like the Iraq war, you remove Saddam as a sort of a pressure valve. Exactly. sudden that Iran is emboldened and ISIS movement. I think that what we've seen, 20th century history has shown us that there's always blowback. Or the CIA trains Osama bin Laden and the Lujidine. That's what I mean. There's always this blowback and at some point you figure out, okay, you know what, we're

Starting point is 01:24:24 not going to intervene anymore politically or militarily. We'll practice free trade, but there won't be a policy. And there's a huge difference between free trade and cultural exchange, artistic exchange. That happens, that brings people together. So Gene Roddenberry, the creator of Star Trek, had it right. It's prime directive, non-interference. Yes. There we go.

Starting point is 01:24:50 Interesting. Yes. Do you think that gravity is, do you have a theory of physics that maybe transcends gravity? Do you think gravity is maybe couched within electromagnet? magnetism or... This gets complicated and this brings this into some of the... Where I'm at now is my studies. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:25:10 And as I'm trying to wrap my head around plasma physics, as possibly part of our own energy future, as well as possibly our remote energy past. Well, people have always wondered about gravity. Well, I've... So the two anomalies that I always look at in physics, and I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff, but the things intuitively that I feel are off are gravity and time.

Starting point is 01:25:36 And in relativity, those two are coupled in very weird ways. And then when you get to super subscale, quantum, you can't really reconcile that with gravity. Right. And then you possibly get some time spookiness around subatomic scales as well. That would be certain interpretations. And so, yeah, obviously gravity is much, much weaker than the electromagnetic force as well. Is there some sort of magnetic pulling force between celestial bodies that weakly correlates with its mass, but that's more magnetic in nature? Or, yeah, I don't know. How do you think about it?

Starting point is 01:26:16 I don't really have thoughts on that so much as, but thinking about, you know, the whole issue of quantum entanglement. Can I shift gears then? Unless you want to. Okay. Do you think the magnetic field of the earth is weakening, which then allows for all sorts of solar storm events and scary X-risk radiation? I think it's more volatile and dynamic than it has been assumed. I don't, you know, what does it take to cause a magnetic field reversal? I think the last magnetic field reversal was about 700,000 years ago.

Starting point is 01:26:52 Yeah. But there's also magnetic, geomagnetic excursions, they're referred to. to what causes that I don't know I would certainly think though that what the events of the younger dryus if anything would be capable of causing fluctuations within the geomagnetic field those events could be and and why is that so there's a guy named Charles Hapgood who we've talked about and he writes about pole shifts yeah and there people especially a lot of people online that are like you know every 12,000 years the poles shift and then you know everything resets that to me feels way to

Starting point is 01:27:29 kind of neat and perfect and oversimplified. And so you have an interesting explanation for why the poles shift, which then might result in geomagnetic anomalies as well, but there's something upstream of both of those, right? Well, I wish I had my globe sitting on the table here, which I will have here eventually, but the Earth is an oblate spheroing. The equatorial diameter is 26 miles greater than the polar diameter. So that means that if you're starting at the equator, you travel at the equator to the North Pole, You've gone downhill 13 miles relative to the Earth's center of mass.

Starting point is 01:28:03 You've gone downhill 13 miles. Okay. Now, as the Earth is spinning, you have the distance, say, from the crust at the equator. It's going to be 13 miles farther from the Earth's center of gravity than, say, Antarctica. Now, or the Arctic Ocean crust, right? Now, what happens is, during an ice age, you have this gigantic transfer of surface mass. Right. Now, at the beginning of the Wisconsin Ice Age, we went from a state of basically less, far less,

Starting point is 01:28:46 glacial ice on the earth than there is now. This is way back to say 108,000 years ago. Okay, so now over a period of a very short period of time, in the geological framework. You have this enormous transfer of mass out of the ocean basins up onto the continent, up to the point where ocean levels worldwide drop 400, 450 feet. You get six to seven million cubic miles of glacial ice piled up on the Earth's surface. Now I've gotten very much into this, the phenomena of how the crust of the Earth responds to the

Starting point is 01:29:25 this redistribution of surface mass. And I get very much into that in my Atlantis, eight hour, nine hour Atlantis lecture that's available online for download if anybody is interested in diving into this further. Okay, so what happens is, is there is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is a is static adjustment that's

Starting point is 01:29:47 we've accepted that there's lateral movements of the Earth's crust. You know, hapgood in a sense kind of anticipated continental drift. Although in his scenarios, it was much, much faster than the models of continental drift now is a few centimeters per year. And so supposedly, you know, if you have a, you know, coalescing where plates are coming together, you're going to have either an overriding of one plate or you're going to have a buckling. This produces orogenesis, the uplifting of mountains. If you got like on the leading edge of a plate, or if you're on a separation zone like the mid-Atlanticine,

Starting point is 01:30:25 ridge, it's going to be separating, magma is going to be welling up from the mantle, spreading out, and this is how they set up that chronostratographic framework based upon changes into geomagnetic field, because when the magma crystallizes, it freezes in, it locks in the orientation of the minerals along the prevailing magnetic field, right? So this is how we know that the magnetic field, the primary way, we know that the magnetic field is actually quite dynamic. Now, getting back to what I'm talking about here is that we're accepting lateral movement, and we know just from Hudson Bay, for example, that, and even from studies around Lake Bonneville

Starting point is 01:31:07 and other places, that the Earth's crust can move vertically. This is the isostatic movement, vertical, right? Now, up in Hudson Bay, it appears that the crust of the Earth has been depressed by the weight of the ice at least 1,500 feet. maybe in places much more than that. Now, picture you've got a big beach ball, right? That's the earth. And let's say we decide to put massive amounts of weight at both of the poles,

Starting point is 01:31:37 and it's going to compress the earth this way. What's going to happen this way? It's going to expand, isn't it? The beach ball, assuming that the amount of air is constant, the beach ball is going to try to maintain, a uniformity, a consistency of volume. So in other words, if it shrinks one way, it has to compensate by expanding elsewhere.

Starting point is 01:32:04 This is why I get into the whole question of what happened with Atlantis is because when you pile up 6 million cubic miles of ice onto North America and maybe another million cubic miles of ice over northwestern Europe, it's squashing down the crust Now, at the same time you're doing that, what you're doing is you're creating subsurface pressures.

Starting point is 01:32:30 Also, as you're increasing the weight here, what's happening to the weight of the water in the ocean basins? Because the water in the oceans is being evaporated out, precipitated out as snowfall. But when you have the onset of a glacial age, the whole natural yearly annual hydrological cycle of the planet is completely disrupted. Like right now what happens is that we get a lot of snow in Canada, in northern the United States, it accumulates every winter, spring comes, it melts, it goes into the rivers, it's transported back to the sea, it goes into the groundwater, right? So you've got this, this constancy in the system, the amount of water evaporated out.

Starting point is 01:33:16 It may, in the summer it falls as rainfall, but it immediately goes into the hydrosphere. If it's a northern latitude, Canada, for example, northern Europe, it falls a snowfall, but then there's a delay up to months at a time before it melts and reintroduces into the hydrosphere, right? So now what happens with the onset of a glacial age, it is almost this, and it would be almost, and given that we know about the time frames in which these climatic transitions can occur, it is almost as if somebody flips the switch, winter comes on, and then it doesn't end for 10,000 years. But the conundrum, and the problem is,

Starting point is 01:34:00 is you're still evaporating very large volumes of water out of the ocean basins to precipitate out and build up an ice sheet that's a mild, mile and a half, maybe even two miles thick. So there's the paradox of an ice age. For one thing, it's got to be cold enough that that snow is piling up, compressing down first into fern, then to compress down more into glacial ice, but it's not melting. But at the same time, you're getting huge amounts of snowfall,

Starting point is 01:34:29 which means that there's water vapor up in the atmosphere, and how does that water vapor get there? It requires heat. There's your conundrum. Can you explain that paradox? No, I can't. I have some kind of vague thoughts on it. But let's circle back to this idea of isostasy.

Starting point is 01:34:45 The onset of an ice age age comes along, it interrupts that cycle. Now what happens is winter comes on to the world and it doesn't go away for 10,000, 12,000 years. You've got this huge mass of ice pressing down. You have hundreds of trillions of billions of tons of ice pressing down on the surface of the earth.

Starting point is 01:35:09 At the same time, weight is being released from the ocean basins. So what's going to happen naturally to the ocean basins. What's going to be the counterpart of the pushing down the isostatic depression under the ice sheets? It's going to go in the other direction, isn't it? The ocean basins are going to raise up isotastically. And then when you reverse that and you melt away the ice sheets, pour that water back into the ocean. What's going to happen? Now the ocean basins are going to respond isostatically by depressing the continents as we know from observations are going to rebound now think about what happens in the geophysical sense of the distribution of the continental masses the crust of

Starting point is 01:36:00 the earth when over a period of a few thousand years which is just a geological instant it's suddenly two thousand feet out of whack with the latitude it would normally be apt. In other words, if you push down the polar region, like say North America's pushed down 2,000 feet,

Starting point is 01:36:23 you release that weight, it's now rebounding, but when it's rebounded 2,000 feet, farther away from the center of mass, now it's not in equilibrium with its latitude anymore, is it? No.

Starting point is 01:36:39 So what is it going to try to do? in order to achieve re-equilibrium. I think that what happens is, is that with the process of glaciation, rapid glaciation, rapid deglaciation, it induces a tremendous amount of instability in the Earth's crust

Starting point is 01:36:59 that could manifest as an accelerated episode of continental, of lithospheric movement. And that would explain the pole shift. And that would explain the pole shift. Fascinating. I don't think that it's something that occurs, you know, in days or weeks. I think it takes several thousand years.

Starting point is 01:37:18 And in fact, it's still happening. It is still happening. But one more thing. Within that, I think there are episodes where the transition, it's just like what we saw happen in Turkey and Syria, the stress builds up on a fault line, it keeps building up and building up until finally it overcomes the resistance of the rock. it moves and it creates an earthquake. And you've said that there can be possibly tropical zones in Antarctica, right?

Starting point is 01:37:48 Oh, yeah, there are, we're at least subtropical zones. What about now? What do you mean, what about now? Are there any sort of habitable, possibly habitable zones in Antarctica? In Antarctica? Yeah. The South Pole. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:38:03 I don't know. Interesting. I don't know. That's a whole whole. another do you know Admiral Richard Byrds? I know the stories.

Starting point is 01:38:13 What do you think of that story? I don't know what to think. I guess we need to do an Antarctica expedition. Let's do it. You've been suggesting that, haven't you? I can't wait. Yeah, I'd love to.

Starting point is 01:38:24 Okay. Can we do the Azores first? Yeah, let's do the Azores first. That sounds more suitable for my disposition at this point in my life. Perpetual spring. Yeah, there you go.

Starting point is 01:38:38 More of a Caribbean cruise. Yeah. You've been a Freemason for over 30 years. Well, let's see. I was initiated in 1978. How many years is that? Going on 45 years? Yeah, almost.

Starting point is 01:38:54 I was a young man of 27 when I was initiated. Okay. I was raised in March of 1979. I became master of my lodge in 1990. Randall, you've been a Freemason for over 40 years. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. How does that dovetail with your interest in the origins of humanity and in the

Starting point is 01:39:19 civilizational cyclism? Oh, very much so. I mean, very much so. How do they connect? Masons are the custodians of a very rich tradition of ancient knowledge. What is that ancient knowledge? Well, architecture, sacred geometry, astronomy, music. You build both homes and commercial.

Starting point is 01:39:38 commercially during the day. That's your day job, which always fascinated me because I don't know how you know as much as you do about this sort of esoteric stuff and the geology. And yet you are able to be, we're going to a restaurant later that you built. That's right. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it is very cool. Well, you know, to me it's all intertwined. You know, my interest in geology, I'm sorry, geometry primarily stems from early building projects I did in the early 70s, you know, building Buckminster Fuller Dome, for example. You built, like, you built, what do they call, Bucky, uh, Bucky Domes? Bucky Domes. Yeah. You built a Bucky Dome? Yeah, a couple of them. Really?

Starting point is 01:40:24 Yeah. Is that true? Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't make that up. And so that got you into a Freemason? Was Buckminster Fuller? Well, I didn't do it with Buckminster Fuller. Oh.

Starting point is 01:40:33 No, I mean, no, I never met Bucky. I would have loved to have met Bucky, but I didn't. No, I know you didn't meet it. But you built Bucky Domes, and was he inspired by Freemasonry in any way? I don't, I've never seen any evidence of that, but maybe. My friend was just telling me that he went to this place called Black Mountain College or something, a Black Mountain University. Yeah, North Carolina.

Starting point is 01:40:55 North Carolina, exactly. Which almost seems freemasonic in some ways because it was so interdisciplinary and at Top Plato. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's kind of has served in a way as a model, a smaller-scale model. of the school I'd like to build, which we are going to build. Wait, so, what does Freemasonry have to do with this? Well, Freemasonry, historically, I think we can trace it back to, the conservative interpretation is it traces back to the early 1700s.

Starting point is 01:41:29 And when I became a Mason, that was a dominant view. I think there's been plenty of scholarship now that can show a succession going back to the Middle Ages. Yeah. And the building of the Gothic Cathedral. And I think there were two traditions that sort of merged together that became the basis for modern freemasonics. One being the guild, the lodge system of guild builders that actually built the cathedrals and the Templar knights. And because we find both very prevalent throughout modern Masonic traditions.

Starting point is 01:42:03 How did the Templars affect the Freemasons? Well, I think a lot of there, particularly in things like the York Rite and a lot of the ceremonies and stuff, there's a lot of Templar references, things that seem to have parallels with what we know about Templar ceremonies and things. So, yeah, I think that the two main streams that came together out of which modern Freemasonry was born was the Templar tradition and the guild tradition of cathedral builders. So are these, you know, in popular lore, people see masons both as very good. You know, the founding fathers were all masons, obviously. And then sometimes evil. And sort of trying to control the world or whatever. And you even read like Manly P. Halls, what is it, like the secret destiny of America or whatever.

Starting point is 01:42:54 And it just feels this like this sort of globalist aspiration. Well, I'd like to point out that, you know, you know, Masons are very proud of famous individuals. that have been masons. So it's well documented who's been a mason in history, who at present is a mason. Although here's the thing, if you start looking at all of the characters now

Starting point is 01:43:18 that we think of when we talk about New World Order, when we talk about the World Economic Forum, the World Health Organization, when we talk about, you know, the main politicians that are, you know, when we look at all of that, you're not going to find.

Starting point is 01:43:35 find any Freemasons. You know, you look at Klaus Schwab, George Soros, you know, Bill Gaye, you start going down the list. What are those people and what ties? I don't know what they are, but they're not Freemasons. Do you think they're old, old European families that sort of thing? I think some, you know, obviously the Rothschilds. And see, here's the thing. You might have had some of these people become Freemasons, obviously. But I'll point out several things. You said, you mentioned the founding fathers. A lot of of them were Freemasons and they drew their traditions of the worth of the individual, of liberty, of democracy and all. Those were being practiced within the Lodge system before America was founded.

Starting point is 01:44:21 Yeah. The Washington Monument is an obelisk. It's an obelisk, yes. The eye of Osiris on the... Freemasons, you know, again, you know, if you look like the biblical injunction, you know, by their works, you shall know them. I mean, Freemasons do... incredible work and they they they they shew any kind of recognition they I mean the extent that you know I'll use an example you ever heard of the Scottish Wright Hospital for crippled and burned children no is that a Freemason look it up look it up look up Scottish Wright Hospital yes they they on average in America and I this used to be accurate since the numbers of

Starting point is 01:45:05 Masons have declined this number may not be absolute accurate anymore, but in round numbers, Masonry in its heyday, like when I came in in the 70s and the 80s and stuff, a million dollars a day they raised in charity. Wow. A million dollars every day. It's awesome. Yes. And it went to good works.

Starting point is 01:45:23 Yeah. And Mason's a big, huge part of the Masonic traditions is charity. And that's the first thing. When you're initiated, one of the first things, you're initiated, one of the first things. you're taught about is the importance of charity, taking care of your fellow man. You know, the whole idea of brotherhood and brotherly love is right at the cornerstone of the thing is. And the stuff that's being promulgated online is total garbage.

Starting point is 01:45:52 It's garbage. That's my sense too. I think if anything Freemasonry has unfortunately lost a lot of its vitality. Oh, it has. I wish our leaders were Freemasons. So do I. I wish they were. I wish they were. It's both about. Good luck finding anybody in the Biden administration that's a free minister.

Starting point is 01:46:12 Totally. Totally. And it's all about sort of self-cultivation, but in a, you know, outside of obviously charity and generosity and brotherly love, but in a well-rounded way as well. And in a multidisciplinary way. And in a way that's practical too. Practical, very much. The idea of Freemasonry is very, very. much about leading a practical life, but in the symbols of Freemasonry, you know, the compass

Starting point is 01:46:41 and the square, the plum bob, you know, the plum bob, like how do masons meet? You've heard of this saying, you know, we conclude a business deal and we just, I do a project for you, you hire me, you know, we've fulfilled all the terms of the contract, we're both happy, We end with a handshake, right? We go, are we on the level? Are we square? Meaning, yeah, we're square. We're good, man.

Starting point is 01:47:10 We're both happy. Both of those are pure Masonic terms, right out of the Masonic philosophy. You know, are we square? Meaning, you know, is everybody happy with this outcome? Is that a fair exchange? Yeah, we've had a fair exchange. On the level. How do Mason's meet on the level?

Starting point is 01:47:27 So when you go into a lodge, it doesn't matter whether you're, you know, a multi-millionaire businessman, corporate head, a plumber or a carpenter or a famous celebrity. When you go into that lodge, you're all on the same level. Yeah. And I've been in lodges where I'm sitting where there are retired admirals of the Navy and illustrious people who've been very successful in society. But the master of the lodge sitting in the east with the gavelin hand

Starting point is 01:48:00 who's controlling it all might be a carpenter. And when everybody walks comes in, it doesn't matter, they pay deference to the one who's sitting in the east because he's the one who has just spent seven years climbing the Masonic ladder that now qualifies him to sit in the east and control all the proceedings in the lodge with his gavel. Right? So that's how it works. How do Mason's meet on the level?

Starting point is 01:48:25 How part on the square. And how act? by the plum. Think about a plumbob. You're holding a string with a weight. Okay, think about morally uprightness. Think about the term rectitude.

Starting point is 01:48:43 See, these are the moral teachings that are just right at the very core of Freemasonry. And I've had people argue with me online and say, well, you don't know because, you know, you go through up to the 32nd degree, but then when you get to the 33rd degree. That's when you find out it's all evil and satanic and all of that. And I go, well,

Starting point is 01:49:06 how do you know that? How do you know? So what you're saying to me, though, is I've been a mason for 30 years, 35, 40 years, I've climbed up to the 32nd degree. And all of this time, I didn't know that the third, and I've sat in lodge with men that I highly respect, that I know that are 33rd degrees, that are pillars of their community that do so much good in the world. But somehow I've gotten up to the 32nd degree, and I don't know that really this 33rd degree is this evil cabal, but you, who's challenged me, who don't know nothing thing about it, the history of it, you read some bullshit online, and now you think you know, and so you're going to tell me, oh, that it's a secret, that I don't know that the 33rd is actually,

Starting point is 01:49:58 this evil cabal, but you're so astute, you figured it out because you spent five minutes looking at something on the internet? It's so ridiculous it would be laughable, except for the fact that there are people out there who are totally invested in this belief system, including the dumbass that I was once partnered with who built Sacred Geometry International. Interesting.

Starting point is 01:50:24 Well, these groups, Why do these groups always seem to get persecuted? Like if there is a line back to the Templars. Well, look. I think about the Templar story, and I believe they owned a lot of the debt. They had kind of an international banking system, and they owned a lot of the debt of Philip the Fair, Philip IV of Spain. And Philip the Fourth basically slandered them and said that they were doing,

Starting point is 01:50:51 they were engaging in all sorts of weird rituals with each other. and in fact I think it was they were sort of dedicating themselves to something higher and so they were you know the rumors were that they were spitting on the cross and and doing stuff like that and I think in their mind this is this is what I read from Rudolf Steiner is this Austrian philosopher they were sort of simulating Peter's denial and so it was it was all about sort of dedication to something beyond symbology and higher but obviously they're easy ways to misinterpret spitting on the cross and they all ended up being burnt at the stake in 1307 and i don't know how much of that would have been you know you can see the smear campaigns

Starting point is 01:51:35 going on today and you know that they're BS you know when you see you know the mainstream media closing ranks on graham hancock and calling them a white supremacist racist promoter of dangerous conspiracy theories and if you know anything at all you know that's complete BS. Right? But the idea is, you know, now they can't, they'd like to, some of them would probably like to take and torture Graham, but they can't get away with that. Right. Like they could have once upon a time. Yeah. But look at this. Every time, if you go through history and you look at what happens when despots and tyrants and dictators take over nations, one of the first things they'll do is they'll shut down Masonic lodges. Yeah. That's one of the, Hitler did it, Mao did it,

Starting point is 01:52:22 Stalin did it, they outlawed Freemason. Now, if Freemasonry was really this secret cabal of Satan worshiping global controllers, why would that be? Why would every dictator then shut down a Masonic lodge? Right. The other thing I like to point out is, of American presidents, 14 of them have been master masons. 14. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:52:45 But how many have been Episcopalian? I make that point, 23. That's exactly the point I'm making. 23 of them have been Episcopalians. So you could make exactly the same kind of argument with just as much credibility that it's the Episcopalians who are the secret puppet masters of the globe. See, it's that ridiculous. Right.

Starting point is 01:53:07 Do you think that it was rumored that when Jacques de Mollay, who was the last grandmaster of the Templars, was persecuted, that he had sort of a theory of how the world worked that might have been somewhat subversive to like setting authorities. Because I do think that the Templars were custodians of advanced knowledge. And they were also supposed to have, you know, protected maybe a bloodline of Christ. This is another possibility. This leads us straight into the whole tradition of the Holy Grail.

Starting point is 01:53:42 Yeah. So what do you think the Holy Grail is the human heart or do you think it's something physical and real? I think it's a very complex, it's an image for a very complex text. technology of restoration, of regeneration, of rejuvenation, and so on. And that technology can be applied from an individual all the way up to a nation, all the way up to the planet. And how do you even start to think about the Holy Grail, which, you know, feels like an impossible to even conceive of symbol?

Starting point is 01:54:15 Well, you do what I did. I spent like a year or two just diving headfirst. into the late 12th, early 13th century, Grail romances from Cretchen de Troyes to Robert Debrain, to Porzschevall. Exactly. That's what I did. So that's your prescription to people out there

Starting point is 01:54:41 as dive headlong into the 12th and 13th century. That's it. Easy. Or, you know, maybe, Well, part of what I'm trying to do is to provide shortcuts for people. Yeah. You know, I have been a student of these things since I was in high school in the late 60s. So I've got, you know, half a century.

Starting point is 01:55:04 And, you know, you asked, like, you know, to me it's just, I don't know, it's just natural. I learn things. I tend to retain things. I have good retention. You have amazing retention. Like, as good as anybody I know, it's like, it's an idetic memory. It's insane. I've been told it's an idetic memory.

Starting point is 01:55:19 I'm not definitely not photocating. photographic memory. Thank God. I don't think I'd want to be photographic memory. But idetic is that, yeah, I have good retention. I have a great, what I have is a well-developed storage system and a good retrieval system. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:55:38 Although my retrieval system sometimes lapses, and I know that the information is there, I just can't get the drawer open, you know, and then later it'll pop open all by itself. And I go, oh, okay, there we go. Okay, see, there's my file on the drawer open. Holy Grail, let's see, who said what. But yeah, see, I think that the mind is just, you know, it's the same way as any organ of your body. If you use it, it gets stronger, more efficient. If you don't use it, yeah, people tend to, they get out of school and they quit using their brain

Starting point is 01:56:11 and they just, instead of getting smarter through their life, they just get dumber. I agree. I also think that the mind, though, needs a strong constitution behind it. I think the mind is pre-leveraged by the stomach and by other organs in the body. And if any of those are sort of out of line, the mind can often be very powerful, but if it's not well integrated. That's like right now my big challenge is getting back, you know, a decade of the last decade, I've had a pretty tough time in some respects. Injuries.

Starting point is 01:56:46 Sorry to hear that. Oh, well, you know, it's natural. Yeah. And, you know, it's being part of being in a human body and doing the kind of work I've done. You know, it was between, you know, construction work and extreme type sports things, you know. Yeah. You don't come through that unscathed. And I wouldn't trade it other than, you know, I've got issues that have slowed me down.

Starting point is 01:57:11 And because of that, it's shifted my metabolism. But I have the resources now that I didn't have. have a few years ago. You know, my business was going like gangbusters when the, when the real estate bubble popped in 2009, 2010. And I had went from pretty good income to like very large debts within one year and the dissolution of my company. So I realized then that that, you know, can have a big effect on you. Yeah. You know, it really, you know, it sent me reeling. of creating a lot of stress. Absolutely.

Starting point is 01:57:49 Stress. Yeah. And stress can actually be a killer. Oh, it's really bad. It is. So I've tried to do things now to de-stress my life. Okay. You know, it's working.

Starting point is 01:58:00 I had a few years spell there where it was a struggle. But I thought, okay, I've got to keep my eye on the prize here. I've got to keep moving. Yeah. And I got through it. But now I've got residual effects that I'm dealing with. But, you know, I've got...

Starting point is 01:58:17 Say la V. The last few years, you know, my access to resources has increased enormously as a result of what I've been doing. So I'm in a very position now to pretty much regenerate. A, speaking of which, and at the risk of displaying extreme hubris in this question, but also this sort of is emblematic of what I do with you all the time. You were a man of, you know, helping other people with shortcuts. What is your shortcut to the Holy Grail? Oh, my shortcut for the Holy Grail would be that I have, well, I've put together a whole presentation where I break it down.

Starting point is 01:58:58 I get into the authors and I analyze the symbolism. Yeah. And do you think it's a physical thing or do you think it is? I think, I'll put it this way. I think it's a technology. It's a tech. Now we talked about within the human body or outside of it? anything that's living.

Starting point is 01:59:18 Interesting. Yeah. It's a technology of regeneration. Sort of, hmm. Regeneration, interesting. Yeah, so for a debilitated body, it can regenerate for a debilitated wasteland. Does it explain sort of spontaneous remissions and healings and that sort of thing? Well, in the sense, perhaps, yes, but I think that understanding the applications of the technology,

Starting point is 01:59:45 technology may appear to be spontaneous. But I mean, there's a very interesting overlaps between the Grail stories, the Grail traditions, and alchemy. The Grail basically is like the counterpart to the Philosopher's Stone. The Philosopher's Stone, you know, is regenerative, right? the things that confers longevity. So does the grail. Right? There's,

Starting point is 02:00:19 and in my presentations and in the things that I do publicly, in lectures and classes, in private meetings and classes, and what I will be doing in the content that I'll be creating over the next year or two, I'm going to be incrementally taking pieces of this information

Starting point is 02:00:39 and disclosing it as much as possible. Do you think that religion has a sort of proto-architecture and that, you know, there are connections between Dionysus and Jesus and Dionysian rituals and Jesus? And so you do. Yes, I do. You know, I look at the spiritual tradition almost as being like a great underground subterranean river, which periodically emerges and breaks through the surface and flows over the surface. And it waters the world. It brings the subterranean minerals and the life replenishing waters to the world. It might be 200 years of the magnificent cathedral building,

Starting point is 02:01:29 which coincided with the disclosure of the grail romances to the world, which coincided with the troubadours using their spiritual songs and poetry to carry information, sacred information around the world and civilization, coincided with the first schools of Kabbalah that were established in Spain, corresponded to the rise of catharism, of Templarism, of the Gnostic building tradition, and the building of the magnificent cathedrals in Europe. The great architecture of Southeast Asia, the final, wave of monumental earthworks in North America, etc.

Starting point is 02:02:16 Something came out, something emerged and it watered the spiritual fertility of the planet, and then it went back underground. Do you think that we are living in another such age? So Carl Jasper, the German philosopher, had a term called Axial Age, and that was like a time when past meaning structures were sort of sloughed off, and you'd get these new sort of revelations. I think he used it to describe the 8th century BC to the 3rd century BC. You had Confucius and Lao Tzu and who else would you have had at that time?

Starting point is 02:02:54 Plato and Socrates and Aristotle. They were a little later. But yeah, during that period of time, well, I think there are times where you do need new forms. It's time changes. You know, the planet changes. The planet that we inhabit is evolving. right? We have to evolve along with it. But at the same time, in order to maximize the probabilities of successful transformations going into the future, we have to keep a viable, vigorous pipeline to our own past.

Starting point is 02:03:30 Because there are traditions, I think, that have woven their way through the whole history of civilization. And again, using that analogy of an underground stream, emerging from time to time, watering the meadows watering the valley and then life and civilization is abundant and prolific and then it goes back and then after a period of time the things are forgotten you know there's kind of a drought

Starting point is 02:03:58 we have been in sort of a drought in a sense of spiritual wisdom and knowledge and now we're at a point where I think the pieces are aligned where if there's even a small group of people that understand these traditions and the power of these traditions that can take us back to a clear and deeper understanding

Starting point is 02:04:20 of our own origins, we'll have a much better framework for understanding the potential of our future. And it's it's, it's, it is incumbent upon us now that those of us who are making these connections and realizing this, that we do what, whatever is necessary to turn this tide that's leading us into Armageddon.

Starting point is 02:04:44 Absolutely. Absolutely. There's external knowledge and then in some ways external knowledge has a limit and there's also sort of internal latent or dormant knowledge that can be somewhat activated. And so how do you mix those two because you seem to be a person who's filled with external knowledge and yet some of this stuff feels somewhat intuitive as well. and maybe revelatory? One of my mentors, the late Keith Critchlow, used to say the inner and the outer are reflections

Starting point is 02:05:16 of one another. And if you keep that in mind and if you remember that, then you realize that the things we do externally can be ritualized, can be symbolized, and have corresponding effects within the inner domain, and vice versa. vice versa. So as we go into exploration of our own consciousness and our own subconsciousness that leads us right back into the entire racial story of our species on this planet, if we recognize that, we can begin to see that all of the external world is really a sacred symbol. And vice versa. See, it works both ways. The inner is a reflection of the outer. So we use

Starting point is 02:06:04 the inner to learn more about the world and how it works and understand that the world is this externalization of our own consciousness and i think that's the approach and we have to look at the world as a sacred place so how do you because to me it's partially like some sort of holograph and i'll talk to like you know a boomer crystal healer and they'll say it's it's all you know an emanation from what's inside the only thing that matters is you know interiority and in being self-aligned and then I'll speak to you know some industrialist and they have no internal spiritual life and you know they're complete materialist reductionist and neither model is very charismatic to me this is exactly my perspective okay so how do you reconcile those two things well like where I said

Starting point is 02:06:52 I mean you you begin to look at the things in the external world you begin to look for the sacredness and the symbology of the things in the world around you yes but not everything is a symbol You're not living in the book, The Alchemist, where everything is like a bumble. You're wearing green and green's my favorite color, so it's a great day. You know, like, that's too much. That's too much. But then there's sometimes it does. Sometimes you are experiencing a real synchronicity that is some, you know, there's some esoteric underpinning.

Starting point is 02:07:21 And you're experiencing the exoteric layer. And that's a really exciting almost recognition of some primordial soul knowledge in the real world. And that's crazy. One of the things that I've been doing recently is I did a presentation on Halloween to show the sacred origins of Halloween, the symbolical origins. And then I did one on winter solstice Christmas, and the deep symbolical connotations of that going back transculturally, way back into the past. I'm going to do another one Easter. I'm going to do up in Nashville. Rebirth.

Starting point is 02:07:57 Nashville? Am I going to? No, no, no. It's out in Arizona, near Sedona. We're going to be doing Easter, kind of an Easter recognition, and coupled with that will be a lot of material on the Holy Grail. And with Easter, that sort of matches like this tale of Persephone's quest to the underworld. Yes, very much.

Starting point is 02:08:19 Very much. The idea of the death and resurrection of the God, of the royal personage, you know, the death and resurrection of the king or the queen. Yeah. The crucifixion took place. Easter is a recognition of the crucifixion. The whole crucifixion story is a Christianization of the whole grail mythos. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:08:42 Because it very much, the whole idea of the chalice is that Joseph of Arimathea, who took the body of Christ off the cross, which is all symbolical. I'm not saying that there wasn't really an actual crucifixion that happened, but even if there was, it doesn't negate the possibility that it was also symbolical. And I think that maybe to understand it, we have to look at it in that bimodal fact that it was both symbolical, that it was a recapitulation of the ancient mystery play, which was the death and resurrection of nature, the death and resurrection of the royal personage, the death and resurrection of the world itself, right? the death and resurrection of civilization,

Starting point is 02:09:28 all of these things on these levels. Last time I was with you, you did a private presentation for me after our on-air conversation where you presented this whole case for Jesus having not actually died. And you talk about the Hyssop as this actual sedative

Starting point is 02:09:46 that he almost used to trick the governor at the time, the Roman governor pilot, who poked him with a stick, and he was sort of like incapacitated, but he was actually alive. and he was sort of resuscitated by these herbs of Joseph of Arimathea. Do you sort of stand by that thesis?

Starting point is 02:10:05 First of all, Am I making you uncomfortable right now? No, no, it was not Pontius Pilate poking it with a stick. It was the centurion with the lamps. Oh, it wasn't Pilot. No, it wasn't Pilot himself. Pilate was the one who said, who are you? And he said, I'm the king of the Jews.

Starting point is 02:10:23 Or you said you said you're the king of the Jews. You said that, I didn't say that. Right, that's, yes. He was the governor. Pontius Pilate was the governor, yes. Okay, so the Centurion went and prodded Jesus to see if there was any response to know if he was still alive. Now, I think what I would rather do is I am planning to put a lot of this out there at some point, probably early next year. Threads of this have been around for a long time.

Starting point is 02:10:52 This is nothing new. Brian Moro Rescue believes this. as well. He's the author of the Immortality Key. Yeah. And he believes that maybe this was some sort of mystery ritual where like, you know, you have the guy with the water jug or whatever who's coordinating this.

Starting point is 02:11:07 Yes. The whole Last Supper feels very coordinated, right? Yes, it does. And they're sitting and, you know, you have the 12 disciples and then he drinks this this hyssop or whatever this drink. And maybe it's similar to the Kekegon and the L. Eucinian mystery rituals. Martin Luther King

Starting point is 02:11:23 actually wrote a very interesting essay called the pagan continuity hypothesis about basically, you know, or was about the pagan continuity hypothesis, you know, pagan and Greek influence on early Christianity. And so like maybe these mystery rituals, you know, took place. Oh, yeah. I mean, the archetype of the death and resurrection of the divine king is precedes Christianity by millennia. And to me,

Starting point is 02:11:57 you know, that's, and again, I'm not going to make any final definitive statements. I think we need to be open to, well, like we talked about earlier, outrageous ideas. And one outrageous idea might be that Jesus didn't die on the cross, like you said, and that there was a lot more to the story going on behind the scenes. And I think that one could make a plausible case for that. just by reference to some of the things you just named. And it's very instructive if you go through the Gospels and you pick out the details,

Starting point is 02:12:34 you can make a case that there is definitely something going on behind the scenes. And this thing was that the whole ritual was pre-planned for some reason. Okay. Now what that reason would be, that would be speculative. There was like an upstairs and a downstairs as well, right, in this house? Yes, the last supper was.

Starting point is 02:12:57 And, of course, you know, then that brings us into the realm of the grail. Because the chalice from which they all drank at the last supper, that is the grail. And then that was the chalice that Joseph of Veramathia collected the blood of Christ when he was removing him from the cross. And it was sealed in the form of a cyborium, and that was trans. transferred to England. And when Joseph of Arimathea arrived in England, he met up with Arvirigas, the pagan chieftain who then granted him 120 hides of land as the sacred precinct where he would establish the first

Starting point is 02:13:43 Christian church, according to legend. And so there's a whole story there that brings the Grail mythos. into this whole question. And then, you know, then what happens is it gets convoluted there because as soon as we get into the realm of the grail, now we're in this realm that's very much like trying to make sense out of a dream. Do you think that Jesus had a bloodline and he had kids? Well, then that's, see, that's one of the hypotheses

Starting point is 02:14:16 that if he did survive, he could have generated a bloodline. Again, there's circumstantial evidence that points in that direction. But we don't have what could qualify in my mind as definitive proof. What's the circumstantial evidence? Well, traditions like particularly the origin of the Meravengean Kingline in France, possibly, I mean, because that was part of the... The lure was that he escaped to the forest in France, right? With Mary, Mary Magdalene?

Starting point is 02:14:46 I'm not familiar with that. Okay. Now, Mary Magdalene, according to some traditions, did travel with Joseph of Arimathea, and she disembarked at the place that is now Marseille. Uh-huh. And, I mean, Marseilles named after Mary. Okay. That's where it gets its name.

Starting point is 02:15:02 And so, okay, these bloodlines, so, you know, the Kings of France, what other possible, you know, evidence do we have, or just lore, mythology, do we have around this? Well, most of it that I know of is mostly like traditions, legends, hearsay, that, kind of stuff. Okay. I don't know, you know, well, there is a possible way that we could determine or, now that is, gets us to the shroud of Turin. Yeah, I was just going to, that's crazy you're bringing that up, I was just going to ask you about the shroud of turn.

Starting point is 02:15:39 Can you tell the audience what the shroud of turn is? Well, it's a, it appears to be a burial cloth with an image of a man on it, and a man looks like he's been tortured and all of the wounds are 100% consistent with the wounds described in the passion, in the in the Gospels, you know, the the the nails through the wrists, the crown of thorns, the piercing of the side, the whipping of the back, all of that, the holds in the feet. What was the interesting about the the, the, the, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, shroud is that, you know, it was originally, you know, it first showed up in history with the nephew of, I think it was Jeffrey Descharni, who was the last grandmaster of the Templars.

Starting point is 02:16:30 No, Jacques de Molay was. But Jeffrey Descharnet was his associate. Who? What? They were associate. Jacques de Malay was the last grandmaster of the Templars. I think, well, yeah, he was the last, well, so Jeffrey Desharnie was the second. Second of the last, yeah.

Starting point is 02:16:45 Yeah, okay, got it. So it was his nephew that had the shroud in his possession. And I'm a little vague on how it ended up in the in Turin, but it went through a succession of owners and it finally ended up in Turin and where it still is in the repository there. Wasn't it studied by NASA like a piece of the fabric and it was sort of- Well, it's been studied by a group of scientists several times since. They finally... And they said they debunked it or whatever.

Starting point is 02:17:20 They said, you know... But you have some interesting takes on this, right? About its actual veracity. Yes. Again, no definitive final proof, but I think we can show where the debunking was actually not a debunking. Where? At least the first, the early ones in the 80s, when they first did the analysis.

Starting point is 02:17:43 Now, there have been several things that have been done, scientific studies. had been done since that first one that was approved by the Vatican. I'm not up to speed on what the results of those were, but it does appear that they contradicted some of the debunking claims. But going through the debunking claims, I could actually, I think, show you where I think the debunking went wrong. I couldn't do that without preparation, I mean, because I haven't really looked at the Turin Shroud thing for at least ten years.

Starting point is 02:18:16 And I know there's been some additional studies on it, which I haven't followed up on, but I have a very, I have a pretty comprehensive massive massive material on the shroud and the testing that was done in the 80s and the early 90s. So maybe sometime we could do an interview based pretty much on that. That would be great. But maybe give us a little teaser on, you know, where the conventional debunks were wrong. for one thing it came in which part of the shroud did they actually test because there were several repair jobs that were done to it. And so you have several pieces of cloth that were

Starting point is 02:18:57 much younger than the original piece of cloth. So if you test that instead of the original piece of cloth, obviously you're going to get a much younger date. Interesting. And so why do you think there was some sort of incentive to debunk this thing? You think they were bad faith actors? And so what is that to kind of relegate? Whoever the image was. And of course, the claim is that it was painted on there by an artist. And I kind of don't like to put out vague generalities without getting into the precise specifics

Starting point is 02:19:29 because that's how science works. You can't just say, well, this may have happened, that may have happened. You have to actually be precise and you have to come up with definitive evidence and lay out your chain of reasoning and the evidentiary support for that chain of reasoning, which in a casual conversation, obviously we don't do. If we were going to do a discussion about the shroud,

Starting point is 02:19:54 I would review all of my notes, we would have some graphics, some images to look at, but let me put it this way. I think it boils down to this. If that was not a painting, and I think that we can make a very strong case that it was not painted on there by an artist. If it is some kind of a photographic image, you know it's a negative, right?

Starting point is 02:20:16 You knew that. So if that was taken on a man wrapped in a shroud, the image of the man in the shroud, even though all of the wounds are consistent with the biblical description of the wounds of Christ, the man in the shroud was not a corpse. Wow. The man in the shroud was living. How do you know that? Well, several reasons.

Starting point is 02:20:48 The main reason is this. This is how the arms were folded, right? Now, if you've got a corpse laying supine horizontal and there's no heartbeat, all of the blood pulls up in the bottom of the body, it doesn't flow out, right? the highest points of the wrists, blood has been flowing out, the feet, the blood is flowing.

Starting point is 02:21:17 You can tell from the shroud that the blood from the wounds was flowing, which means that the heart was pumping, which means that the individual was not a corpse but a living body. There's also evidence in the original Greek of the scriptural, evidence itself in the words that are being used to describe. And I'm not going to get into that right now, but I would want to have those words in front of me and it show you then the meaning of these words that are used, which imply, again, the same thing that this was a living being, a living man.

Starting point is 02:22:00 But in the Christianized version, Joseph of Amarthea, took the grail cup, which was the cup, used at the Last Supper, right, by Christ and the disciples. And from the wound in Christ's side, he caught the blood in the water issuing forth, seal that into as a cyborium with a cover on it. And then according to legend, transported that to England, where he met up with the pagan chief in Arviragos, who bequeathed to Joseph and his 12 followers or disciples, 120 hides of land.

Starting point is 02:22:40 And a hide of land is 120 acres, traditionally in Britain. And that was established to be the sacred precinct. At the center of the sacred precinct, again, according to legend, a small circular church was built that was just under 40 feet in diameter, and it was built out of waddles,

Starting point is 02:23:02 which were sort of almost like moody vines or something. So it was built. And that chapel was maintained for a long time and then eventually fell into ruin and was replaced by another circular chapel that maintained the dimensions of the original. And that eventually decayed. And then in the 10th century, I believe, it was an abbey was built there where the width of the abbey was the same as the diameter of the original circular chapel.

Starting point is 02:23:37 That fell into ruin and it was replaced by Glastonbury Abbey. There was a chapel built on the west end of Glastonbury Abbey dedicated to St. Mary, now whether that was Mary Magdalene or the Virgin Mary, could be either one. It's called St. Mary's Chapel. This width of 39.6 feet, it has said, preserves the diameter of the original chapel. Now the 12 hides of 120 acres each, that meant that the sacred precinct was 1,440 acres. And 1,440 is one of the key numbers in the whole sacred canon of numerical cosmology. You know, there was 144 cubits in the wall, the circular wall around the wall.

Starting point is 02:24:31 the Holy City. There was 144,000 who were the redeemed of the earth, which I take to be... Isn't that the latitude of the pyramids, too? I think the latitude of the pyramids is close to 30 degrees. Okay, never mind. Yeah. So I think that the 144,000 could refer to the 144,000 that are going to save this planet from self-destructuring. If we can get 144,000 of us that are committed to that work, which is the great part of the great work of our time, we will be able to have a future without being set back to the dark ages and struggling to survive for another few millennia. Let's do it, man.

Starting point is 02:25:22 Yeah. You'll be in that. So I want to shift gears to Atlantis. The story of Atlantis came from Solon. who was Plato's great uncle, is that right, or great-grandfather? I think great-uncle. I mean, in the lineage, I believe it was Solon to Dropidas to Critias the elder, to Critias the Younger, who then presented the story at the Socratic Forum in Athens.

Starting point is 02:25:49 And Solon got it from Egyptian priests. Soontius, I think, was the name. Was it Cranthor who gave the name? I don't remember, but yeah. And there's a guy named Jimmy Corsetti who was just on Rogan. And you know Jimmy. Met him important. I haven't met him personally, but we've had some great interaction over, you know, digital.

Starting point is 02:26:16 Digital things. Yeah. And so he's presented a theory that maybe Atlantis existed in the Rishot Territory. Of Mauritania. Of Mauritania and Africa. And you, I know, I've talked to you. about this many times for years, have a different theory about maybe an area in the Mid-Atlantic Ridge that is currently underwater.

Starting point is 02:26:38 And I still hold of that, and I've looked at Jimmy's stuff, and here's what I would say about Jimmy's stuff, is that he's done some really interesting work there with the recat structure. There are some parallels that are quite striking. However, when you break it down and take Plato's detailed accounts, I don't think it applies to the recat structure. And in my presentation that I've done, again, the people can get online. I forgot what we're charging for it.

Starting point is 02:27:06 It's pretty affordable. But they can download like an eight or nine hour, two-part, three-part lecture where I break it all down. And I do devote like probably an hour anyway to an analysis of the recat, reshap structure. I think it's recat. But what I do say is that, according to, again, in my, lecture, what I do is I go, okay, what if we just took Plato's details literally, do they hold up under what we now know about oceanography, geology, marine geology, astronomy, geography, etc. Does it hold up? Is there a consistency there? And I've read a lot of books on Atlantis

Starting point is 02:27:51 and the many places it's been proposed. And in every single case, You have to change the details of Plato's account. Let's say that you accept the island of Tara and the Santorini eruption was the story behind Atlantis. Well, this happened 900 years before Plato, so the assumption is, well, Plato made a mistake by a whole order of magnitude in dating. You have to change something. You know, it's been proposed to be southern England, Cuba, Turkey. Antarctica, the list goes on and on. North America?

Starting point is 02:28:33 North America, yes. Graham, Graham Hancock sort of implied that in America before. Well, here's what I would say. If we take Plato's account as being legitimate to some extent, he's describing a mid-Atlantic island-based empire with sophisticated maritime and navigational skills. Well, right there you have the possibility of there being colonies all over the damn place. Northwestern Africa would seem like a very obvious place to have outliers, have colonies.

Starting point is 02:29:16 But why do you think, why is it your base case that it is there in the center of the Atlantic and not the regrets? Well, that's what I get in. Yeah, and that's why it took me eight or nine hours. to explain that. Turn that into two minutes, Randall. Because during a nice age world, that was one of the most favorable places on the planet for a civilization to evolve.

Starting point is 02:29:43 That's why, for many reasons. But, you know, our good friend, our dear friend Rob Reinhart that recently visited Atlanta. You know, I was hoping maybe we could persuade him to talk a little bit about, but I don't think he wants to. so we're not going to go impose upon Rob at this time.

Starting point is 02:30:03 What we'll do is we'll just talk about him as if he wasn't sitting right over there. I like that. Let's do it. I actually don't like Rob. You don't? Oh, shit. So anyways, I was really excited here that our mutual friend Rob recently visited the Azores. Yeah. And I think the implication of that is Rob is now going to be integral to this Azores expedition, Azores tour that has kind of been sort of germinating for a couple of years now.

Starting point is 02:30:43 Let's go. Is that possible, Rob? All right, he's not going to speak, but everybody, he is nodding his head. He's nodding his head. Well, yeah, we should, I would love to go. We should do a follow up where we go to the Azores. That sounds great. So it was sort of climate-wise, it was just optimal.

Starting point is 02:30:59 That's the reason that you think it's there. There are any other reasons? Oh, yeah, multiple reasons. So that's number one. Give me the super high-level summer. I know it's annoying because you have so many facts in your head. Super high-level. It is, from a climate perspective, it's optimal.

Starting point is 02:31:14 What else? Number one, number two. Well, I mean, okay, so what I talk about in the eight or nine hours is how isostatic adjustment shows that a large port, that what we're seeing now, those islands are the tops of mountains. Sunk and mountains. Interesting.

Starting point is 02:31:32 And I get into the evidence for that. I mean, I show that the dredging of the ocean floor, the core samples, the findings of submerged shorelines and things. There's a very strong case. Because the map looked entirely different. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:31:48 It's like the map of Piri race where you have sort of tropical. parts of Antarctica that are shown at the top. Durantius Phineas that shows parts of Antarctica. Yeah, I mean, Graham makes the case that's never been refuted, which is that

Starting point is 02:32:05 this knowledge of geography comes from some past culture that had had the ability to navigate the world. Okay, so optimal climate for living, number one, number two. Well, now you've got

Starting point is 02:32:21 access because your, your strategically poised where you've got access to Africa, Europe, North America, and South America. So all the landmasses. So now if you're interacting with people, resources, all of these kinds of things, you're strategically placed where you've got fairly regular access. I mean, literally it took, what, Columbus six weeks to sail? Yeah. All right? That means that if you're poised on a large island or island complex in the mid-Atlantic, you're, you're, you're, you're.

Starting point is 02:32:53 three weeks of sailing to Africa and Europe, three weeks of sailing to North and South America. Yep. And now you've got access to all of those resources. It's pretty awesome. Yeah. It seems to me that for multiple reasons, that would have been an ideal place for a civilization to evolve when sea levels were lowered by 400 feet and the Mid-Atlantic Ridge was probably

Starting point is 02:33:18 a thousand to two thousand feet higher than it is now. A lot of esoteric traditions talk about involution as opposed to evolution. And there are rumors that maybe in the past, in past civilizations, hominids have been giant. And we've found sort of possibly giant bones. Graham Hancock has talked about this. Yeah. What say you? Well, I would say that I've never seen a giant skeleton myself, but I've taken some pretty deep dives into some of the actually

Starting point is 02:33:51 archival stuff. You know, the Emory Library where I used to do a lot of research has an incredible collection of 19th century writing, state archives, and records of, you know, early archaeology Bureau of the American Ethnological Society, the early Smithsonian Papers. There's an incredible wealth of stuff in there. And in fact, in one of my presentations, which I've not yet presented in a public, forum, I pulled a lot of that stuff together. The excavations, particularly associated with the monumental earthwork, giant skeletons.

Starting point is 02:34:30 Those accounts are repeated over and over and over again. That in the excavation there's a giant skeleton dug up, sometimes seven feet, sometimes eight, sometimes even nine feet in height. Now these accounts, of course the skeptics say, all these were just hoaxes and made up and You know, yeah, maybe in some cases, yes. But look, there was no internet so for somebody to get, you know, 10,000 likes if they went and said that they discovered a, you know, it's going to be Dr. So-and-so and Reverend So-and-so that's out there excavating with a group of local townspeople witnessing the excavation and they dig up an eight-foot skeleton. I'm just not buying it. You can just dismiss that and throw it out of hand with a hoax.

Starting point is 02:35:16 Well, if you think about the trajectory of mankind now, it feels like we're moving from, you know, if we were wolves in the past, we're turning into dogs and we're being domesticated. And, you know, what a sperm count or testosterone. So on a human kind of body hormonal level and then probably size of body as well. It's like this has become vestigial. We're not hunter-gatherers anymore. You're not being selected for anymore. And so do you think, yeah, I mean, you think about sort of.

Starting point is 02:35:46 these possible large hominid creatures in the past. And then there are a lot of traditions that talk about demigods, Titans. You know, in the book of Enoch, you had the watchers that, you know, maided with mankind.

Starting point is 02:35:58 There were giants in the earth in those days. Giants in the earth. Do you ascribe to possibly, you know, any of the theories that ancient alien astronauts might have come down comated with mankind? And we are their descendants. That's kind of a,

Starting point is 02:36:15 sticky question. Well, let me just say, I think about every human and there's something very depraved about them. You know, it's like we're very ape-like in some ways, and then we do have sort of this divine spark in other ways. We feel wholly separate from the rest of the animal kingdom and yet also sort of a part of it. And so I've wondered about, you know, this theory is a possible way to explain. Perhaps, you know, I'm a very open-minded. I certainly don't sit here and claim I've got final answers on all of this stuff.

Starting point is 02:36:45 You know, I don't know if I can't even say that I wish I did because half the fun of life is figuring this stuff out. The journey of discovery, the mystery. But I do think that as you go along and you think about this, you study, you learn, you meditate, contemplate, you do discover answers to some of the questions. You know, there are mysteries and then there are greater mysteries and lesser mysteries. The ultimate mystery, I don't know. I tend to be agnostic about that. I will say in a more pragmatic sense, though, that when we go back to the late Ice Age,

Starting point is 02:37:25 when we go back to the late Pleistocene, I mean, my God, look, the Imperial Mammoth stood 16 feet tall at the shoulder. The American Pleistocene lion was the size of a horse. Glyptodonts were armadillos, the size of Volkswagen beetle cars, of golf carts, you know. I mean, the list goes on.

Starting point is 02:37:46 The giant cave bear, the Ursus Spalius, the bear that stood six feet tall at the shoulder and 12 feet tall when it stood up on its high legs, there were giants, right? If there were all of these giant, the Irish elf with 10 and 12 foot antler spans, for Christ's sakes,

Starting point is 02:38:03 8 foot tall at the shoulder. Can you imagine encountering one of those things? Talk about an impressive beast there. But if you had all of these mammalian megafauna, oversized compared to today, why not people? Well, also, yeah, how would you survive in that context if you weren't mega-sized? You know, you had to be awful smart. You had to be awful smart.

Starting point is 02:38:24 And then you have all this megalithic architecture that 10, 20, 30-ton blocks. And I think that that gets us into the technological discussion. And because of the things that I've been learning lately, I think I'm honing in on what that technology was that they were using. And we could do another discussion on that. To attempt to do that now would be premature because there's still holes in my game and I don't necessarily have all the pieces together. But my instincts tell me that, yeah, we have to be looking at these plasmoid technologies could

Starting point is 02:38:58 provide the answer to things like levitation of large stones. It's interesting. I mean, an area I've always been interested in is this study of parapsychology, which is, you know, the idea that there's some sort of mind over matter effect. And to be honest, it's a very poorly assembled group of people and work, and it's often not rigorous, and it was definitely marginalized, and it was chronically sort of underfunded, and didn't really go anywhere, and there were sort of scaling problems to it. It was hard to sort of instrumentalize.

Starting point is 02:39:33 And yet, if you look at some of those, you know, albeit somewhat small-scale studies, I'm convinced, if you look at the actual data, that there is a weak mind over matter effect. And the ability to cultivate that maybe, you know, that's an interesting question. Can that be cultivated? And there are biblical references to things like that. You know, maybe Jesus was the ultimate parapsychology practitioner. Have you ever had what you would think of as a parapsychological experience? Yeah, definitely.

Starting point is 02:40:07 Yeah, I have. Something you talk about or? Yeah, I've had many. I haven't had many. I've had a few. Well, parapsychological, I mean, I've seen UFOs. So I don't know if that's peri-I-I think that's- It could be.

Starting point is 02:40:25 I think it's- On one level, maybe there is a parapsychological component to the UFO phenomenon. I think there absolutely is. But then as far as like seeing, you know, something levitate or something, you know, like, you know, engaging in telekinetic powers or... I've had some weird... Okay, yes, the parapsychological stuff I've experienced is calling things very early,

Starting point is 02:40:49 like predicting things in bizarre ways. Not even coming from my conscious intellectual mind, but it's like it gets zapped into me and I experience like a premonition or something. Yeah. Which I think a lot of people have experienced. Yes, I have too. I've had a few things that have been,

Starting point is 02:41:05 you know, you could dismiss them as coincidence. I think when I was about 18 or 19, my best friend from high school that I worked with and his older brother were out somewhere. And I was home sleeping and I had this intense dream that they were in trouble and got busted to the point where it woke me up and it was about 2 a.m. And the next morning I go to call my friend and I couldn't get a hold of them. And it turns out that at 2 a.m., him and his brother got busted for dope and they were saying, sitting in jail. Now how the hell that always struck me, that was bizarre. Yeah. That I actually had this dream. Yeah. It woke me up and then I, oh, that was just a dream. I went back to sleep and then the next day I find out that literally right around the time I had that dream

Starting point is 02:41:56 and woke up, they had gotten pulled over and got busted for dope. Well, it's interesting. Scientists are now saying that quantum computers can send information back in time. And we know that there's temporal non-locality and entanglement. You know, if you have photon A and photon B, if you measure photon A in the future, it affects photon B in the past, which is pretty awesome and interesting. And so maybe, you know, there's this concept of the long body

Starting point is 02:42:26 and, you know, we experience an amnesis when we're ported into the limited prism of our physical body. And maybe we can glitch into the long body and access are almost, it's almost like pre-memory, our future cognitive knowledge, our future state through some sort of quantum system, which is very interesting. And, you know, people have tried to find, you know, literal physical analogs or physical explanations for what could be that quantum sensor. And there's a guy named Stuart Hammerov who thinks that it's the microtubules in the brain. And I don't know if that's exactly right. but that could explain some of this sort of the premonition stuff.

Starting point is 02:43:08 I think that's, I would agree with that. To me, it's obvious that the human brain and body is not a classical computer. Right. And people like Turing who've suggested that in the past, I think you're sending people into a cul-de-sac with this whole AI thing. This leads me into the whole concept of quantum entanglement, that somehow there is this something that, you know, there's some level that transcends time and space as we know it.

Starting point is 02:43:33 And interestingly, this seems to be one of the implications that is coming out of plasma physics when you're dealing with, you know, things on the atomic and subatomic level. And this is something I'm, you know, very much in the infancy of learning about. But I showed you the slideshow that I put to you 240 slides over the last three months to help me. Well, it's doing two things. It's served for me to learn about the system, the methodology, the philosophy, the ideas, but it's also going to be used to present by the leading scientist of this system to various entities around the world that have already shown an interest in implementing the technology. Do you think that the military industrial complex is hiding any knowledge?

Starting point is 02:44:31 around fundamental parapsychology and the reason I ask. Probably. The reason I ask is because Ben Rich, who is the head of Lockheed Skunk Works on his deathbed, said we have the ability to go to the stars whenever we want and we've built it. And the journalist asked him, well, how do we do that? And he goes, well, have you heard of ESP? And the journalist goes, yes. And then he goes, well, that's how.

Starting point is 02:44:55 And then there's a guy named Bob John, who was a plasma physicist who worked at Bowen. who worked at Bowen, who then went on to run the Princeton Pair Lab, the Parapsychology Lab. And so I think about that connection as well, you know, where he's working at Boeing and on plasma, and then he goes on to work on sort of parapsychology. And I wonder if there is an interesting connection there. And I think about the modern UFO story. And it's usually trying to push people away from thinking about parapsychology and towards more kind of nuts and bolts materialist reduction.

Starting point is 02:45:30 reductionist explanations of how the craft works. And in fact, a lot of people say when the crafts crash, there's nothing inside the craft. So there must be an interface between the mind of the occupants of the craft and the craft itself. And so it has to be somewhat parapsychological from that perspective. I think it's parapsychological from the viewer's perspective of the craft as well. And it feels like that's the thing that's been stigmatized and marginalized. You know, you don't want people thinking about parapsychology.

Starting point is 02:46:03 You'd rather them think about, you know, speed of light limits and physics. Right. Which takes us into a realm that's probably beyond our time frame tonight. Wow. Well, let's eat because we're going to miss dinner and we got to go to your restaurant. And I'm getting hungry. Yeah. I've worked up an appetite.

Starting point is 02:46:27 Same, man. Yeah. Randall Carlson. Jesse Michaels. This is the best opening of all time. Man, it's an honor to speak with you. I consider you a really good friend at this point. We always have amazing phone conversations.

Starting point is 02:46:42 We do. I consider you a good friend as well. Well, thanks, man. We need more people like you in the world. Two years ago, I went to Decatur, Atlanta, and we did an interview. We did a sit down, and I felt like I was kind of low energy, and we never put it out. But it was like this amazing two-hour thing. And a lot of it was around how the moon is possibly this anomalous like alien spacecraft.

Starting point is 02:47:03 Well, now you're giving away secrets, but it's okay. She's an insider. So we were talking about how the moon might be this anomalous, you know, object because it's one four hundredth the size of the earth, but it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the Sun. The conventional explanation for how it formed that an asteroid hit the Earth and it formed this perfect, you know, sphere. You never see the dark side. sort of just rotates around us. And then there are all these sort of ancient myths that involve a pre-moon period, right? And the moon actually kind of settled the tides or whatever pre-younger-driest period.

Starting point is 02:47:39 And then you've found some really interesting anomalies when it comes to the moon as well, right? Oh, yeah. I don't necessarily think that there is a record of humans witnessing a time when there was no moon. There could have been a time that there was no moon. And if we accept the capture theory, which was one of the three dominant theories up until the impact theory game dominance, we had the capture theory, the sister theory, and the daughter theory. Those were the three.

Starting point is 02:48:10 All three of them have problems. But the capture theory has, the idea there is, you know, you have to somehow, it's coming from somewhere else and it gets trapped into this orbit around the Earth. But the capture window is so small, you know, it would be almost like we're trying to shoot a dime that's a mile away with a rifle, something like that. I mean, the capture window is extremely small, and it's because of the mathematical problems that that theory has not gained much credibility. But what they did is they kind of combined several theories that you had in order to get the chemical ratios and the isotopic ratios. and the differences between the moon and the Earth's composition, and the similarities, that was essentially the problem.

Starting point is 02:49:00 So you had to concoct up this theory that it was hit by a large object, maybe as big as Mars, and that would have caused this spewing out into space of all of this debris, and then eventually this debris would have formed a ring around the Earth, and then it would have consolidated into the moon that we see today. I have seen, and I'm certainly not prepared to get into the technicalities of it,

Starting point is 02:49:27 but I've seen some pretty exhaustive treatments of the mathematics of just that, and it's extremely challenging to get from a ring of debris around the earth to the moon that we see today. It's one thing to say, okay, here's a big impact, stuff gets thrown out, forms a ring, okay, But now to get from that ring to the moon that we have today with all of its unique features, that gets problematic. So how do we explain? Because it's amazing, you know, when you look into your work and Robert Beval's work, Graham Hancock, all these people, Robert Schock, John Anthony West. It seems very apparent that you have all this archaeology that's far older than we date it to. And that maybe, you know, the pyramids, for example, are much older than we think.

Starting point is 02:50:22 Maybe, you know, the sphinx at Giza, actually there's limestone water damage on it. There's erosion on it, which would imply, you know, not this, like, desert, you know, temperature. And so what do you think about when they were built? Like, is there sort of a positive version of that theory? Because I think what I find frustrating is it's clear, the negative thing is clear. It's clear that archaeology is wrong and that our history is much older than meets the eye. But can we actually date any of these things? Obviously, you can't date stone, but can we approximate when these things were built?

Starting point is 02:50:56 And what society built them? Well, one thing you can do, though, with stone is you can use luminescence dating, which I'm not going to try to get into a technical explanation of how that works. But basically, if you have a piece of stone, like let's say in the sphinx, you've got this body of the sphinx, and then you've got this, it literally was a quarry around it, right? Have you been there?

Starting point is 02:51:20 Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you know then that the sphinx is actually, the body of the sphinx is below the grade of the ground level. Yeah. The head is above, but if you look at those walls, right? So before those stones were quarried, that was all underground.

Starting point is 02:51:38 And it was not accessible by cosmic ray bombarding. However, once you've removed the rocks and exposed it to the air, to the sun, to the air, to whatever, now the cosmic ray bombardment causes spolation, which creates isotopes, which then can be, by counting the isotopes, you can date it. And I'm not going to try to explain it all without a little bit of having prepared myself for it. for it, but optically stimulated luminescence. You can date how long a stone has been exposed to the environment. That's interesting.

Starting point is 02:52:20 Yeah. So I don't know why nobody is really underpaid. So have we dated any of these things? Like for example, not that I know of. Well, why don't we do that? We have to figure that out. There is some sort of method that allows us to date.

Starting point is 02:52:32 Because I think where, you know, I love all the people I just mentioned, but like where you can poke holes with Graham Hancock is, or any of these people's work is it's clear these things are older but when can you date them to and when exactly where they built and if he's trying to win in his arguments against you know the ministry of culture and hawaz and stuff then like it's very important that uh you know they have sort of smoking gun proof and if you can get that smoking gun proof it would be great like let's take the snakes for example i've been there i've seen it i've studied rock weathering i've studied limestone and weathering in the field. I'm convinced that it is water erosion. Well, then what you have to do

Starting point is 02:53:15 is turn to other fields of science to determine when there would have been enough water to do the erosion. The erosion, see, the sphinx itself, the body of the sphinx has been subjected to these restoration campaigns. So now there is, you know, are you looking at a original piece of the or are you looking at a later part of a restoration campaign? You dispel all of that when you're looking at the sphinx ditch, right? Because nobody's done a restoration campaign against that west wall of the sphinx ditch. So what you've got there is pretty much the pristine erosion that happened after those blocks were removed, right?

Starting point is 02:54:01 And those blocks were removed using your, I imagine, typical separation trenches, cutting them loose, moving them out. And typically if you look at a quarry wall that has been even modern, that uses modern technologies and industrial processes to remove the blocks, you'll have this kind of stepped profile. And there's a lot of old kingdom quarries, limestone quarries along the Nile, that are supposedly about the same age as the sphinx, but you can look at the walls of them and you can literally pick out the chisel marks in the walls, the pick marks, and in the sphinx ditch, you would assume that would be there, but there are places where the surface profile has been eroded back over two feet. So you've had two feet of limestone material removed.

Starting point is 02:55:03 Now, we go to another scientific discipline, and we can look at climate change in Egypt, and we can tell, for example, not we, but the scientists that have been studying it, can tell when there was like lots of rain. rainfall in Egypt. And there was, this has been documented independently by numerous researchers that there was copious rainfall during the transition out of the ice age. And freshwater mussels and other remnants of animals that live in the Nile have been found 120 to 150 feet above the present day floodplain of the Nile.

Starting point is 02:55:49 So what that means is that that water, if it's 120 to 150 feet above the modern floodplain, would easily submerge the sphinx underwater. Now secondly, if you go to the east, back up, go to the west, you're looking at an upslope gradient. There's evidence of massive hydraulic movements of water across that, which would have also submerged the Giza Plateau. Now the dating of when that occurred is usually given as around 12,000 years. years. So I was already aware of that dating when I first encountered the work of John Anthony West,

Starting point is 02:56:29 the late John Anthony West, who was basing his work upon an insight that he got from Schaller de Lubich, who first proposed that the sphinx was water eroded and therefore had to be much older than Old Kingdom Egypt, because it's been desert there since Old Kingdom Egypt. And so what I did is I undertook studies of limestone erosion under all kinds of different environmental and energetic circumstances to try to determine various scenarios of how you, you know, the erosion of the sphinx and the ditch, the quarry. I primarily focused on the quarry walls rather than the ditch itself for the reasons I explained earlier, just a minute ago.

Starting point is 02:57:18 And what I came up with was pretty amazing because, for example, gravestones have been, those are really useful for determining erosion rates of different kinds of rock. There are many, many gravestones that were like, see, the thing is, is when you put that gravestone into the ground and it's the date of the person that died, well, that's the date at which that gravestone was now, so if you had it 1850, somebody who died, I live next to a cemetery that has pre-Civil War dates in it. And you can look at some of those gravestones, and they're very eroded. Some of them you can't even read the inscriptions on them anymore.

Starting point is 02:58:01 So the idea is that if you have a gravestone, you put it into ground. That date of death on that gravestone is going to be pretty much the date that that gravestone was now set out there and exposed. So you're okay, well, if this was 1850 or 1870, whatever, you now can know how long this has been sitting in the environment subjected to the rain and the wind and the weathering. So that's one way you study. The other way is there's, there have been like on limestone cliffs that are next to a highly energetic intertidal zone where the surf, like you see out there, is washing up against the cliff. Okay, so let's say that,

Starting point is 02:58:44 so here's what some researchers have done. They've come in, they've drilled a hole into the side of the cliff and they've inserted a metal tenon into that hole measured very very carefully how much of that tenon is exposed out of the limestone cliff and then have come back 10 20 30 years later and to see how much that the cliff faces has recessed backwards and they can now get a recessional rate an erosion rate. Another thing, study that was done is like they took a one cube of freshly cut limestone, and they put it on the roof of the Smithsonian Institution, and then begin to monitor its erosion over many decades. So now you've got a perfectly cut cube with square corners, right? Now you come back in 10 years,

Starting point is 02:59:42 what are you going to notice? Well, first thing you're going to notice is that the sharp corners are becoming rounded all. off, right? That's the first thing that starts going. They become more and more round, and you can now estimate how much material has been removed in that particular environment. So now in the surf with you've got the, I remember one study, what it was was sort of a collapse of rock into the ocean, and it exposed this freshly cut vertical rock face. So they came in there and they drilled that hole, they put the metal tin and they started monitoring over, literally over decades and was determining, okay, here comes the rushing surf pounding against it. How quickly does that limestone erode back? Then another study was...

Starting point is 03:00:34 All right, I think we're good. I mean, Randall, I don't think anybody was expecting that level of thoroughness to my answer. I must have. I almost wanted to let you keep going because you listed five studies about water damage on limestone. And I'm incredibly impressed. Can I just name one other piece of evidence? Yeah. If you look astronomically, you have the Vernal equinox, Leo at the time, the body of the sphinx is a lion. Yes. And it seems like it was sort of retrofitted with this pharaonic headdress. And you have the book Hamlets Mill, which talk about a lot of kind of ancient architecture aligning up kind of astronomically in these really amazing ways. And this is just probably another example, right?

Starting point is 03:01:16 Yeah, because I think you could go back, well, I think didn't Beval and Hancock do sort of a dating based upon the fact of when the Vernal equinox sunrise would have been, when the Sphinx would have been looking directly at that? I think it would have been around that time, yeah, because, around, I think, 12,000 BC or I think you're right, right, when it was. I think it was 10,500 B.C. specifically, when the procession shifted. It's a 26,000-year cycle and true north changes because the Earth, you know, orbits on a wobble. And so the Vernal Equinox is now moving out of Virgo into Leo.

Starting point is 03:01:57 Yes. So now you would have had the sphinx and beyond the sphinx you would have had the profile of the lion. So when I speak to Graham Hancock, he says, you know, I don't think that a lot of this ancient architecture. You know, for example, he says that the pyramid was not a tomb and that this idea that it just enshrined, you know, this death chamber for the king and the queen and the queen's shaft and the queen shaft is, he doesn't believe that. He thinks that it's almost this portal to another world. And it's interesting, right, that the king's shaft lines up with Osiris, the queen's shaft lines up with Sirius, I believe. And then you have this just overall mapping to Orion's belt at the time. And then you have a lot of other astronomical alignment when it comes to architecture across the ancient world, whether it be, you know, the Aztecs or certain architecture we've found in Cambodia. So what do you think these, and they include a lot of the same symbology, geometric patterns, and just building techniques, it seems. What do you think

Starting point is 03:03:04 the pyramids, just as an example, were actually built for? What do you think their purpose was? You have the Christopher Dunn theory. You know, he went on Joe Rogan saying it was like this, you know, power generator. You know, you have all sorts of theories. You know, is it this portal to the afterlife? What do you believe? Well, I don't have any really final beliefs on it. I'm still learning.

Starting point is 03:03:29 You know, when I had like a two and a half, three hour coaching session with Bob Greenier yesterday. And we got into that. And I've got notes. and I've got a recording of it, and he's going to give me a slides. He's got a whole theory on it, which I could not at this moment recapitulate. But next time we talk,

Starting point is 03:03:52 I will have digested it. I will have followed up the various leads. I've got a list of papers to read. I do think that it had something to do with the generation of some kind of energy. And if I had to pick an energy, I would say plasma. energy? Why are you and Graham Hancock both so high conviction in the impact hypothesis? This idea that a comet from the torrid meteor stream, maybe there was some sort of airburst event,

Starting point is 03:04:24 and it wiped out civilization on Earth. There are other theories that the magnetosphere of the earth weakened. There was maybe heightened solar activity. There was some sort of solar flare or or maybe a calamitous volcano. There are various theories. What gives you conviction in the airburst hypothesis? First of all, the proxy evidence is now overwhelming. The idea was proposed. I have it on record.

Starting point is 03:04:52 I gave five lectures at Warren Wilson College in 1995, I believe it was, where I basically talked about the younger dryest, the mass extinctions, the rapid climate change. And I say in my mind, the most likely trigger has got to be impacts of something from space. And I proposed a possible multiple impacts over the Great Ice Sheets as being the trigger. Well, then in 2007, Richard Firestone and Alan West and a number of others came out with a paper, George Howard, came out with a paper proposing exactly that. They didn't propose that it was the torrid or connected with the torids.

Starting point is 03:05:35 That came a little bit later. I think it was from Bill Napier over in the astrophysical observatory in England who first proposed it could have been the torrid. But there is a mountain of evidence now in terms of proxies. By proxies we mean erratium spike. There's a platinum sprite. spike. There have been nanodiamonds found copious nanodiamonds, microspherals that would have taken between 2,000 and 3,000 degrees centigrade to create magnetic grains. Multiple proxies that are associated

Starting point is 03:06:20 with these high-energy hypervelocity impact events. That's what's pretty much convinced me because you now have like eight or ten independent teams that have documented cosmic signatures at the lower younger driest boundary. Now, I think that there's an abundance of... What would an example of a cosmic signature be? Oh, well, a cosmic signature would be you excavate a core, ice core from Greenland, and then you discover that there is a 12,900 year layer of glacial ice. that has a spike of aridium in it hundreds of times greater than the background,

Starting point is 03:07:04 knowing that iridium is deposited on Earth by hypervelocity impacts. That would be an example. Another example would be finding nanodiamid layers. The black mat layer, which I've visited about three or four quarries now where you can see the black mat layer exposed. And in that black mat layer, you've got typically at the bottom of it, you've got abundant nanodiams. And these nanodiams can only form under extreme regimes of pressure and heat. And they're being found all over the world now.

Starting point is 03:07:43 Wow. Even in Antarctica. Pretty incredible. Okay, this is going to be a, what are you going to say something? Well, yeah, so there's multiple proxies. The other thing I would say is that there's stuff. that there are studies that show that would suggest that episodes of intense volcanism can be triggered by hypervelocity impacts, that mass extinctions could be triggered by high velocity impacts, that extreme climate changes,

Starting point is 03:08:14 like from a relatively tempered climate into what's almost referred to as a cosmic winter, could also be produced by hypervelocity impacts. Massive earthquakes. Now we know that there were, and if we were looking at slides, I could pull up a slide and I could show you, here are extreme flood events that occurred during the catastrophic melting of the great glacial ice sheets. And sandwiched in those layers is thick deposits of volcanic ash, which shows us that during that process of deglaciation, there were massive volcanic eruptions. going off around the world.

Starting point is 03:08:55 There's evidence of seismic earthquakes that might have been like 10 on the Richter scale. As a result of this rapid unloading because of the rapid melting of the ice sheet, you've now got trillions of tons of weight suddenly removed from the earth's crust. You have this rebound. That causes a redistribution of the magma reservoirs below the crust, and that can lead to seismic events, earthquakes and so on. So we have earthquakes associated with deglaciation. We have volcanoes associated with hypervelocity impacts.

Starting point is 03:09:31 I think that for the explanation of how do we, when the planet is in the full depths of a glacial age, you're talking about five or six or seven million cubic miles of the ocean, extracted out, deposited on the land over a period of maybe 10,000 years, And now it builds up. It's a mile and a half thick. Now imagine if we were suddenly transported back 14,000 years ago.

Starting point is 03:09:58 Yeah. That beach wouldn't be there. It'd be another 40 or 50 miles to the east, and you'd be sitting right there in forests, the same kind of forest that you now find up in Canada. Wow. Right there. There's no beach there. Out of Miami.

Starting point is 03:10:12 You got to go. Miami Beach would look a lot different. It would look a lot different. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. And so volcanic activity, seismic activity, ice core sampling, all of these pieces of artifacts of evidence would not be explained by any of the other things. So, you know, a lot of sun activity. With one caveat, I do think the sun had a role. I agree with

Starting point is 03:10:32 Robert. On that issue, I disagree that he's, I think he's too dismissive of impacts, although I think he's hedging a little bit, but I do believe the sun had a major role. What was the sun's rule? Well, the sun's role is that we probably had these tremendous solar storms. Do you know Matt Croix by any chance? Yeah, I know, man. So I just interviewed him, and he said something very crazy that honestly I have trouble believing. He said that in the 90s, through the pioneer mission that NASA did, it was, you know, his first deep space envoy, they were looking at these sort of orbital anomalies of Neptune and Jupiter, and they thought that given these orbital anomalies, they detected this, the presence of this 10th planet that was way far out, like, beyond the

Starting point is 03:11:24 Khyber Belt and beyond Pluto. And I found that hard to believe, but he was like, no, they found it. And then the crazier thing is he said they covered up the presence of this 10th planet because this planet was four to five times larger than the Earth. And to me, I mean, if this stuff, if this planet exists, it would make sense that it would be outside of the gravitational sphere of influence of the sun, right? If it's that big. And he was saying that the only thing that made this planet made sense from a gravitational

Starting point is 03:11:56 perspective is that we're in a binary star system. And there's actually a dead star in our star system that this, I know it sounds crazy, but it sort of dances around the sun. And it creates these cyclical coronal mass ejections. Because when you get that sort of gravitational force, you know, coming towards the sun, that creates this, you know, CME event. The whole thing seemed beyond belief to me, but I wanted to see it. I don't have any opinion on that.

Starting point is 03:12:24 First thing I'd say is, Matt, I got to look at your sources. Yeah, it was like, you know, a couple of, you know, decently well-established astronomical publications, and then, you know, these Caltech professors who seem like they had credentials, but I don't know. There have been wobbles detected in the outer planets and some of the speculation around those wobbles is some kind of a gravitational perturbation

Starting point is 03:12:53 by some hypothetical larger object that we have not actually discovered other than indirectly through these gravitational perturbations. So that's been around, that idea has been around quite a while. I don't know if that's what he's referring to or if he's seen some data that I haven't seen. My first thing I would say, I got to go to the sources. When I hear these things, I want to know the sources.

Starting point is 03:13:20 Are they rigorously and robustly established, or is it more speculative? And I don't know. I don't have an opinion on that. How do you explain, this is a huge non-sequitur, but how do you explain the modern kind of alien or UFO phenomena in your sort of ancient civilization framework? Do you think that these are vestiges of a lost civilization? and maybe remnant survivors of that civilization?

Starting point is 03:13:48 Well, we've talked about that, and I think that that should be one hypothesis that is investigated rigorously. I mean, I've immersed myself in mythology for decades. And like today I was giving in the presentation I did it at Apocalypse, Hereticon. Hereticon, thank you, was that behind the flood myths from all over the world, there have been real floods that were really big, really huge, could be described as biblical in scale. Okay, so if we take and go, okay, there was this, they're universal myths about these gigantic world-destroying floods.

Starting point is 03:14:31 And now science demonstrates to us that those were real. Then in my mind, oh, that's pretty awesome. So we have evidence now that one of the very most potent and universal of all, myths, the great flood myths, had their origin in real phenomena. What about some of the others? Like the stories, if you look at what other stories from around the world are as ubiquitous as the flood stories? Well, that would be the stories and the beliefs in gods, right? And the gods are usually sky gods. And I think we could look at, in some cases, I think we could be transferring activity into heavens and anthropomorphize an anthropomorphizing.

Starting point is 03:15:24 Thank you. Anthropomorphizing these events in the sky, which could be. Or the inverse, or we're painting the past over with our modern kind of materialist epistemological brush, and maybe like a bull did come down and have sex with a waterfall and create a titan. You know what I mean? like these weird like myths like maybe they literally saw these things with their eyes and that was just consensus reality at that time well i do think they literally saw things like they would explain

Starting point is 03:15:53 like you know storms and they would call you know they would explain like waves and it was jupiter or whatever we yeah well like we we we rationalize now sure and i do think that they saw things and experience things and particularly like if we go back to you know let's say we go back 5000 to 8000 years ago when we know that the Taurid Meteor Stream was a whole lot more active than now and that people would have witnessed on a regular basis these phenomena in the sky. I'll mention, and you know well about the 1908 Tenguoka event, right? Yeah, of course. Okay, so, well, one of the things that, one of the lessons we learned from that is the

Starting point is 03:16:34 local people, the Tungusi people, they interpreted it as in the framework of their religious beliefs. So they believed that the event was caused by their God of fire, Agdi, coming down from heaven to punish them. So now, unless they lose that mythical connection because they all become college educated or something, what would happen is that this would be a story that would be perpetuated. You know, in a thousand years, two thousand years from now, they would be talking about when the god Agdi came to Earth and set the earth on fire and, you know, did all this damage and so forth.

Starting point is 03:17:21 Well, I think behind a lot of the things that have come down to us myths, we could find that same kind of a phenomena going on, that you would have cosmic events that are so overwhelming in their magnitude that it spawns a religious response in people. Do I think that that's the full explanation for the idea of gods? No, I don't. And I think that there might be a confusion between these things. Because for one thing, let's get back to this point that, you know,

Starting point is 03:17:59 from the scientific enlightenment to now is scarcely over 300, 400 years, right? I mean, we're in the space age now. We're in the age of computers. Now we're in the age of artificial intelligence, all within a few hundred years, right? So now, let's assume that we're talking about two, three hundred years of scientific development, and we're looking at a span of time going back 200,000 years. Yeah. How easily could a thousand or a few thousand or five?

Starting point is 03:18:35 or even 10,000 years of cultural development, scientific development, whatever you want to think of it, how easily could that be lost in the noise of 200,000 years? Yeah, nobody explains why, like, human homo sapiens have been roughly physiologically or biologically the same for the last 200,000 or 300,000 years. The idea that just at the very, you know, the tail end, three to five percent of that time, we get culture, we get technology, we get all. but we were just completely primitive during the entire, you know, rest of it. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:19:10 I think that actually requires a greater leap in logic than the inverse than saying we actually have you. And like you have these kind of Ray Kurzweil style like graphs where it's just like exponential technology or whatever, but it's total hubris. Like that, you know, we maybe we just don't. The field of archaeology is 200 years old, right? It's like, so it's like we found the ancient cities of, you know, Babylonia and Assyria or whatever in the early 1800s.

Starting point is 03:19:34 And it's almost like a law, a predictable law in archaeology that the deeper we go, the older stuff gets. And so, you know, it's almost like your base case guess should be that human civilization is actually much older than, you know, we would ever expect. So I completely agree with you. The question I have for you is like, you're familiar with Eric Mondanican, of course, Chariates of the Gods. So like you read that book, you read Zachariah Sitchin, you know, all this stuff around, you know, aliens coming down and like seeding culture. And like, it feels like they are crossing their T's or dotting the eyes when the dot doesn't exist and the, you know, the cross doesn't exist. Like, they're finishing a sentence that is incomplete. And so it's always tough.

Starting point is 03:20:17 Like, I think the difference between kind of a huckster and like a genius is like this error correction at the, you're filling in the gaps with like BS, right? Yeah. And sometimes that happens. But it does feel like there's like a decent amount of evidence for starry. people or people from some other planet or like an advanced civilization transferring a lot of our modern wisdom and technology. Sure. I think, and I think that's a hypothesis that definitely should be explored. I have suggested that we also consider the idea that at least one dimension of it or one

Starting point is 03:20:53 facet of it and not explains the whole phenomena because there's some wild stuff going on there when you start looking at the record of sightings and experience. of people who've witnessed these kinds of phenomena. But one is that we should consider the fact that, you know, we ourselves, our ancestors, if they were technologically advanced enough, could have left the planet. And there is some very interesting stories about, again, I mean, we could pull some of this up, but we chose not to do that this time, but some of the stories, like, for example, the world tree where the great catastrophe comes and human,

Starting point is 03:21:34 humanity climbs the world tree and like after the floodwaters have receded some of them climb back down to the earth to repopulate the earth but some of the other ones keep climbing into the higher branches that leads to the heavens I mean that's like a story that's a common motif that we run into so what if there was a literal truth of some kind behind these stories like that what if they're actually telling us well yeah there were some people who Somehow we're able to leave the plan. Because if you knew, if you knew the scale and extent of the younger, driest events,

Starting point is 03:22:15 and we knew, if we knew that something like that was going to happen again, I can guarantee you there would be a scientific consensus that, well, if we want to preserve the species, we want to preserve civilization, we want to, you know, preserve our knowledge, our science, our industry, our art, all of that, when we don't know how extreme this is going to be, but we can speculate that it could be very extreme. We probably need to come up with some kind of a way of having a place of refuge. Where would that be? Well, the most obvious one would be the moon. Do you think that ancient religions, like the esoteric versions of them actually kind of comport and go

Starting point is 03:22:59 together. Like I think of, you know, in Merkaba, the Jewish, you know, Kabbalistic tradition you have, like the seven Hekalo, like the, you know, and then there's seven a wreat, you know, in the Egyptian tradition. And then you have the Zygirat and Sumeria has seven steps. Do you think a lot of these ancient traditions actually point towards these sort of celestial ascent practices that are, there's actually somewhat consistent and go move across history? Sure. I mean, There's got to be an explanation for why universally, you know, humans were so interested in the sky, what went on in the sky, created these monuments to the sky. Sure, I think that there probably was a reason and it could be, let's say, commemorating

Starting point is 03:23:49 the knowledge that there was once a science of celestial travel was still in, you in existence, but the actual know-how to do it had been lost. You know the Air Force funded the movie Stargate, where there's like a portal by the pyramid? I didn't know they funded it. Yeah, I always found that interesting. You'll have to excuse me. I might be reaching the end of my tether.

Starting point is 03:24:15 No, no, this is great. I appreciate your time, Randall. I'm having enough a good time, but yeah, I'm... You've got to go create a thunderstorm. We'll see what happens there, yes. Yeah, well, I hope you come out. But we can certainly do this again. And next time, if you'd like, we could do, give me a little advance notice,

Starting point is 03:24:33 and I'll do some preparation. We can sit here and we can look at some slides and things and talk about what we're looking at. That sounds good to me. Doesn't that sound fun? Yeah, thanks, man. Appreciate you. Jesse, it's always fun.

American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Randall Carlson: Is The Moon An ALIEN Satellite Monitoring Earth?

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