American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Ross Coulthart: "I Located A UFO Base In Arizona!"

Episode Date: June 21, 2025

I sat down with award-winning investigative journalist Ross Coulthart for a deep and personal conversation about the UFO phenomenon, secrecy, and the weight of uncovering truths long hidden from the public. This is not just a story about sightings. It is about power, disinformation, and the people behind the scenes who have seen more than they were ever meant to. One of Ross’s most powerful revelations centers around Nat Kobitz, former head of science and technology development for the U.S. Navy. Before he passed, Nat confirmed that the United States had recovered multiple non-human craft. He described being brought to a deep underground facility, where he was shown a piece of a craft’s bulkhead. What stunned him was the engineering. As an expert in electron beam welding, Nat recognized that the materials had been bonded atom by atom using methods far beyond any known human capability. He made it clear to Ross, "This was not our technology." We also explored the mystery of the Buga Sphere, the significance of the Kaikoura incident, and what Ross personally witnessed in Sedona. We discussed how mainstream media has failed to confront decades of government-led disinformation and how secrecy continues to dominate global efforts to suppress the truth about non-human intelligence. Ross opens up about the emotional toll of chasing these stories and why he sees it as a journalistic responsibility to follow the evidence wherever it leads. This conversation is about the future of transparency, the growing public hunger for answers, and the awakening happening across generations. Stay until the end, where Ross shares the story of a buried craft too large to move and the bunker being built around it. | Ross Coulthart | YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6PrA6lo8rJLRExhMvX6wKyNzy0hr_QM3 X - https://x.com/rosscoulthart | Sponsors | MASA: Ready to give MASA a try? Go to https://www.masachips.com/pages/jesse-michels and use code JESSEMICHELS for 25% off your first order. Qualia: Take control of your cellular health today. Go to https://qualialife.com/jesse and save 15% to experience the science of feeling younger. Brunt: Get $10 Off @BRUNT with code [JESSE] at https://bruntworkwear.com/JESSE -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤  https://whop.com/jessemichels Check Out Our New Store ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Patreon  (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Website ➤ https://www.jesse-michels.com/ Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] #RossCoulthart #UFO #UAP #Arizona #JesseMichels Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamavat Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Must be 21 to enter. And if you looked at a particular place of a secret mountain, you would see this big orb being escorted by helicopters rising from behind Secret Mountain.

And we watched at 1.30 in the morning and sure enough. Up comes this beautiful golden orb, gigantic. It pulses. It's plasmatic. And so where my mind might go with that is that this is some sort of global control system. but an object about a mile behind us and it's following us. Let's hope they're friendly. One of the first things that one of my sources in that Georgetown pub back in probably 2018 told me was it's all about consciousness. You've probably met more people in and around these programs than anybody else alive.

You are saying to the human race, we are not alone. We're definitely not alone. Anyway, he chuckled. And I remember he just let something like, yeah, the Americans wanted that one shut down pretty quickly. Whoa. It's a multi-minute long video of this thing flying in the air. And there are symbols around the top.

I showed photos of the symbols to Mario Woods and to Randy Anderson. And both of them freaked out. We went to his home and saw this. sphere apparently move under its own power. People have been murdered because I'm told that the briefing that the FBI gave in Congress really blew people away. I have no doubt they think they're going to get away with it. And you know what? Why? They probably will. I'm here with Ross Colthart who I have just so much gratitude to express. First of all, we've been waiting to do this for a very long time. I'm grateful you're in the U.S.

I haven't been avoiding you. I know you haven't. But I'm also, I just want to express my gratitude because we were talking before when the cameras weren't rolling. I feel like I am aerodynamically drafting behind you. I feel like you have done so much legwork in getting all these amazing scoops. And, you know, often I'll do, you know, a follow-up interview where, you know, I have a lot of fun. But it's really, I just have so much, I owe you a debt. And I think humanity owes you a debt as well. And so I'm grateful for you sitting down.

It's a mutual admiration society, Jesse, because I often say to my family, how the hell does he do it? You seem like a jackrabbit everywhere I see. Have you just come back from Columbia or something? You're doing a Bugis Fier story? I was in, yeah, well, I was in, this is what's crazy. And I know you've experienced, I'm sure, all sorts of stories where, like, it's starts a certain way, and then you have another story come up. So I was investigating these Peruvian

mummies, these tridactal, you know, three-toed and fingered mummies from Peru. And then on the way back up to the U.S., I stop in Mexico City to meet with Jaime Massan, who's a big proponent of this, and two days before, he happened to get this Buga sphere sent to him or whatever. And so I happen to be there. I've got to know, what's your preliminary assessment? Is it real? It's so hard to say. Do you see what my friend Roney Vernet posted on Twitter? You repeat it for the audience. A fuel tank. So there's a particular shape of fuel tank that is exactly nine liters.

And it's got similar holes to the one that Yami is relying on. And it does have the same seam running along the side. It looks like a direct visual match with a few changes if somebody's cosmetically altered it. It's definitely remarkable, just the fact pattern. So, as you know, very well, whenever you take a stance, a hard stance in this world, you get a ton of flack. So I'll just give you my fact pattern of what I've experienced and then people can sort of decide for themselves. So Jaime Massan was given this thing. It was taken in Buga Columbia.

That's why it's called the Buga Sphere. It was given by a guy. So this video was taken by this guy who is, um, I guess he does like, uh, mining and, and metal detection underground. And it's a,

it's a very long, it's a multi-minute long video of this thing flying in the air. You've seen the video. And then he picks it up in the forest and there is a little gap in the video. So that does beget a question of like, you know, provenance and why is there a gap in the video. And then he has it for a while in his possession.

He ends up giving it to Jaime Massan. And there are symbols around the top. Apparently it's an, aluminum alloy that's, you know, three times the hardness of what we generally use in conventional aerospace. And then maybe the most interesting fact I can give you that is new to the audience as well is I showed photos of the symbols to Mario Woods and to Randy Anderson, Mario Woods, 1977 Ellsworth Air Force Space Experiencer. And then Randy Anderson is this guy who was taken underground, you know, at crane, naval surface warfare crane, and was possibly shown

some off-world technology, and both of them freaked out because it was like that these were the symbols that they had both seen, Mario inside the craft. I want to give you something, because I'm not sure, and again, I am not avowing that this is my opinion. Neither of us are endorsing the boogers fear. These are facts that we are listening. I'm endorsing nor debunking. That's right. But I did what I'm increasingly doing these days. I took a photograph of the sphere and I uploaded it to AI and I asked AI, in this case I think it was grok and I said, can you please decipher

these symbols for me? And it came back very quickly and said, the circuit. And that, I have to admit, made me think it was a hoax. Now, I'm not saying it's a hoax. Okay? But what I am saying is

that came back when I put it through AI. But AI is often wrong. But what I love AI is that its ability to draw on symbology and numerology and all of these ideas. And it came back with this one phrase, the circuit. Well, if you look at the top, it looks like a little semiconductor or a chip. Yeah. And then you have, you know, this begets all these ontological questions of like you have, I think his name is Patrick Jackson. Yes. Who has, you've done an amazing story. Everybody go

watch Ross's story with this guy. And I have seen one of these spheres in a different domain in the home of a beautiful man in Texas who is, a good soul. And I can tell you, it may be the case that his sphere is now in the position of Brandon Fugel and the Skin Walker Ranch show is going to be paying to have that sphere properly investigated. There's a scoop for you. I was going to run it on my show. Yeah, so Jim Marlon is a former rock promoter who worked with Willie Nelson and he has a house in Texas. And we went to his home and saw this sphere, I have to be careful, apparently move under its own power. And I mean, we were sitting with Jim for hours talking. And he was in a home where the floor had just been fixed. So it's

perfectly level. And we verified that with a level. And the ball is sitting stationary on the floor and then all of a sudden it starts moving and there's a bar which has a pole coming down onto the floor it goes up to the bar and from memory it might have even circled the pole and then come back again part of the way and there was no movement we were all just sitting in a chair talking and then jim chortles and goes like oh look like and it moves yeah was there something that came up in the conversation was it aligned with anything synchronous no and so when I ran that story on Channel 7 Australia, they as usual as TV networks are wont to do beat the living daylight side of it,

which is a journalistic term for flogging the story until it bleeds. And it, you know, all the promos were fancy and it made it look like we were saying for sure that it was an anomalous object. We truly don't know for sure. And the great frustration for me for the past few years since I did that story in 2021 is every time I went to Jim and asked him, could we take it to go and get it tested? There was a lot of resistance. And it made me suspicious. But then he agreed to go and let it get tested. But the problem was when I was trying to find an x-ray place that does industrial x-rays, the first thing they want to know is,

well, what's inside it? And I'm going, well, that's why we want to x-ray it. And I was expressing this dilemma only very recently on a show somewhere. And this gentleman rang me from Chicago and said that he would x-ray it in his industrial x-ray machine. And he had some other type of machine. Can't remember what it was. Might have been a CT. Kautian.

Yeah. And he would run it through that as well. And it was for free. And I went to Jim and I said to Jim, Jim, I finally found a place that can test the ball for you, the sphere for you. Because one of the things I get most, a lot of the inquiries about from our audience is, what happened to this sphere? You know, why haven't you told us the story about the sphere? And I was finally about to announce that we've got somebody who will allow us to do the testing on the sphere because Jim won't let us to cut into it for obvious reasons. And he told me, I'm sorry, Ross, Brandon Fugel.

agreed to fly up in his private jet to Utah where he's going to have it tested in the lab. And look, frankly, I'm really happy if that's going to be the case for Patrick, who I know, and for Jim, who's a beautiful guy, to finally get an answer. And Brandon, I've spoken to Brandon about it, and I've encouraged him to do it. And so hopefully it's all going to happen. Fingers crossed. Yeah, let's hope. That's amazing.

And I think Patrick, because you were talking about it. about the chip. And so where my mind might go with that, again, I don't know if it's real, is that this is some sort of like global control system or something. Well, Patrick's theory is that these spheres are part of a global defense system by some alien civilization to keep the bad guys out of Earth. Right. And I quite like Patrick. He's a very clever man. He has an eclectic intelligence and he's fun. I honestly don't know how he could know that. Right. Sure. And so, I mean, a lot of it is speculation and he's got type 1 spheres and type two spheres and often there'll be a photograph of a plane. And you do, you see these spheres around

planes in UAP events. So there's often a big, let's call it object rather than a craft. There's a big object that's clearly anomalous, sometimes beside an aircraft. And then if you look really closely, you'll see these dots that are these metallic. spheres. And when I did that story, I did that in 2021 for Australian TV. It just went nuts. It's been seen that particular story, if you add the two iterations of the story, because we had to take one down because of copyright issues with music. It's been seen over 43 million times. And so I was getting phone calls, messages, emails from people all over the world, including I remember a beautiful guy in Africa who told me that they were seeing these spheres.

And what I can report is whatever they are, I do think I can say they're real. They're a real phenomenon. Whatever they are, their metal spheres with no visible means of propulsion. Dozens of people have told me that they've seen them flying or moving under their own local. of power, there's no visible way in which they're moving. And I don't honestly know what to conclude about them because, I mean, I expressed the enigma by telling the story. But like so much of this whole story, Jesse, I don't know about you, but I often feel like I've got my eyes closed and I'm kind of feeling in the dark and trying to get an idea about what it is. And then as

soon as I've got the texture and the feel of what's been in front of me here, I realized there's a whole other room over here of stuff that I've never gotten my brain around. And it's mind-bogglingly complex, whatever it is. This episode is brought to you by my favorite new product, Massa Chips. Here's a quick history lesson. Before the 1990s, all chips and fries were cooked in beef tallow. Then the big food companies swapped this ingredient out for cheap, highly processed seed oil. Today, seed oils make up 20% of the average Americans' calories, and they're linked to all sorts

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Masa chips are beloved by tens of thousands of customers and have been endorsed by industry-leading health and nutrition experts like Ben Greenfield and Gary Breca. So ready to give Mossa a try, go to Masachips.com slash jesse Michaels, Michaels with no A, and use code Jesse Michaels for 25% off your first order. That's Mossachips.com slash Jesse Michaels and use code Jesse Michaels for 25% off your first order. You're really helping the channel out when you use that code, and this is a product I love and consume just about every day. Part of what I want to do in this interview is so many people are used to. seeing you in the context of breaking these bombshell stories. I want to get to know the man behind that because you are often the interviewer. And so how did you were, you know, exposing corruption and stuff with the surveillance state in Australia, right? How did you get into UFOs to begin

like? Like every kid, I was obsessed with Doctor Who and I loved a show called UFO that was on TV. It was a British series about malevolent aliens. invading Earth and there was this secret organization called Shadow that was defending Earth. But I'll be honest, I always saw that as fiction. And I accepted it was fiction. I never believed it was true. And even when in New Zealand, where I was living as a kid, there was a really big UFO incident in 1978 when I was 16 years old in a place called Kikura on the east coast of the South Island of New Zealand. and there was a cargo aircraft flying up that coastline in 1978 in the middle of the night

and the pilot and the co-pilot had these objects. Clearly, in their view, elliptical, metallic, disk-shaped objects come right up to the cockpit window, glowing, but clearly metallic, and then go away again. And what was interesting was it was another kind of Nimitz story because you had sensor systems, I found the guy in Wellington across Cook Strait, who was the radar operator on the night, who'd seen these things on radar. And as the two guys who were the journalists on the aircraft were describing the objects, say, going to the west, the radar operator, John Caudy, was seeing them go to the west.

So you had this contemporaneous, real-time confirmation of solid objects moving, or at least objects that registered on radar moving in the directions that these witnesses were saying that they were seeing these objects moving and they were seeing objects that were plasmatically glowing but at the same time clearly solid, structured, in their words, Kraft. We just heard from Wellington Radar that we've got an object about a mile behind us

and it's following us. Let's hope they're friendly. And for each of those people, it was a transformative, moment. But what was really interesting for me as a journalist was I bought as a teenage boy the official government explanation. And I was doing my exams. I was really focused on my studies. There'd been the Valentich story of a young boy called Frederick Valentich, who had disappeared in his Cessna aircraft flying over Bass Strait in Australia just a few months before. And as somebody who was really already very interested in the media. I kind of brought into the idea that this is all a big

media beat up because there's a big problem in the December, January period. It's the Christmas holiday period. The news is pretty boring. And so this was obviously a story that the media had leapt onto. And I just thought, yeah, this is just a big media beat up. What was interesting also was that the government had come out with an official explanation very, very quickly, which said that these were squid boat lights and in New Zealand there are these big Japanese fishing fleets that go off the coast with these gigantic lights and you often saw them as a kid and they were glowing on the horizon and they looked spooky and so the theory that was pushed by the New Zealand Air Force was that these were squid boats lights and the captain the co-pilot of one plane and the captain

and the co-pilot of another plane even though they were flying at 14,000 feet they were mistaken and those objects were below them and it was some kind of refraction in the year. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It all gave a reasonable tinge of explanation that made everybody in New Zealand think, oh, that was just a bullshit story during the Christmas season. It's all over. For me, though, it was interesting because much, much later, when I became a journalist, I was working for the New Zealand Herald newspaper, and I met Sir Robert Muldoon, who was the former New Zealand Prime Minister. And he used to do these convivial little chats at Christmas time, where a young reporter, me, had to drive up and interview him

and talk to the former Prime Minister about whatever he wanted to talk about. And I decided, I don't know why, I knew he'd been the Prime Minister at the time. I decided to ask him, what about that Kikura UFO thing that happened when I was 16? And by that time, I think I was about 19 or 20. I can't remember. Anyway, he chuckled. And I remember he just let something like, yeah, the Americans wanted that one shut down. pretty quickly.

Whoa. And that, because I love espionage stories and I love, as a young New Zealander, I was always focused on books about espionage and as you referred to earlier, one of the biggest stories I did in my time in Australia was I revealed the existence exclusively of the echelon communications surveillance system, which is what the five eyes operate to intercept communications. and for the first time ever I got from an intelligence service in Australia an official admission that there was a system called echelon and it was involved in communications, surveillance, and spying. And so I was switched on to that issue all my life.

I've always been really interested in spies and espionage. And so it twigued my interest that Sir Robert Muldoon was describing this admission, that there'd been some kind of American intervention, but he wouldn't go any further. And then much, much later when I was writing my book, I discovered that there'd been this release of the New Zealand archives in about 2011. And it essentially revealed the detail of what went on inside the Air Force in New Zealand to try and fix this problem as fast as possible. And it was quite clear these Air Force officers had been told, find a fucking solution as fast as possible. We want this off the front page. and it was quite clear.

Enormous amounts of pressure was being put on the chief of air staff, the head of the Air Force, by the Prime Minister's office, to make this one go away, and hence the squid boat explanation. And then when I was writing my book, I met Quentin Fogarty, who'd been one of the reporters on the plane, who by complete chance his son, Ben, was one of the chief cameraman at 60 minutes where I was working as a reporter. And so Ben said to me, my dad was the guy who was on that plane that night.

And so I got to meet his father, another weird serendipity. And another one of the reporters was a political correspondent called Dennis Grant of great renown later on in Australia. And Dennis confirmed all the story. And he introduced me to Bruce McCabe, who was the atmospheric physicist who sadly recently died. And all of a sudden I realized that the story that I'd bought as a young teenage kid that basically, told me this was bullshit was actually completely untrue. And there'd been a really elaborate coverer. And that fascinated me. And it was one of the, because I actually started out writing my book in about 2018 when I left 60 minutes, I thought I wanted to do a book debunking UFOs. I was

arrogant and I had this assumption that all UFOs were nonsense. And it was only a matter of time. I'd read Nick Cook's Hunt for Zero Point. He'd implied very strongly that there was some sort of secret US aerospace program. We obviously have heard all the rumors about the Aurora or the TR

3B and I just assumed it was some kind of black world American technology and that a bit of dutiful digging would no doubt reveal this and somehow for some inescapable reason I would discover it and make my name by revealing that the whole UFO story was complete nonsense. But the

more I got into the story, because of that Kikura story, everywhere I went, everybody was telling me this is real. And so I had sources from the original echelon investigation I'd done and from people I've met in Afghanistan and Iraq when I covered the war who were in senior levels in intelligence and defense. And they facilitated introductions for me to people who, privately when we sat over a table and a bar said Ross this is real. And that only really happened for me more recently, you know, while I was writing my book. And probably the biggest breakthrough moment for me where I went, holy heck, this is real, is when the technique I'd used to try and investigate this was.

because because of my knowledge of echelon and how easy it is to intercept digital communications, I decided I wouldn't approach anybody that I thought might know something about this other than by using analog communication techniques. I wouldn't even use phones because, of course, there's a metadata, and we knew about that because of the Snowden revelations that there was this metadata trail that essentially reveals that you can be tracked. and they might not know the contents of the phone conversation, but they can certainly track a lot about your habits and your movements and who you're talking to by looking at the metadata.

And so I wrote letters. Wow. And so I wrote, I think about 160, 170 letters at Last Can't. And a lot of it involved doing things like, I'm a lawyer by training. And so as a young trainee lawyer, I'd learned that a lot of stinky stuff happens in the discovery process and legal proceedings with documents that are maybe procured but not necessarily tended in a court case.

And they're often tangential to what you're trying to discover to prove the case that you're mounting, but there's some really juicy stuff in there. And so I don't want to go into too much detail, but there were some very helpful lawyers. And so I built up a name base of people that I thought might be interesting who'd been involved in litigation at Area 51. And in a layering and iterative process of doing what I do, which is basic investigative journalism where you build up a chronology and you think who might know something about advanced aerospace or who might have been working in a security role or a support role at that time in this area that might know something. you build up a name base. And so I wrote letters to people. And one of the glorious things about America is how ridiculously open every database is.

And I could procure the home addresses of everybody that I wanted to write to, including some of the most important scientists in America. Wow. And what shocked me was one of the letters I wrote was to a guy called Nat Kobitz. And he was the form. head of science technology development for the U.S. Navy. And I'd written to him as an act of brazen cheek, to be perfectly honest. I honestly did not expect that somebody like him would respond. What did COVID say? He rang me and I didn't talk UFOs with him for three months. And I realized, sadly, one of the reasons he wanted to talk to me was because he was a lonely,

elderly man who, God bless him, was dying slowly of cancer. And he was in his daughter's home and she was nursing him and he was bored. And I was interested in talking to him and he was talking to me about developing early drone technology and how one of their drones had crashed in George Bush, the president's ranch because the Secret Service had frequency blockers. And, you know, they'd spent millions of dollars on building this drone and the first time they'd flew it because they flew into the secret service the envelope. It crashed and he went, there went

a few million bucks, you know, and he had this wonderful Jewish Brooklyn sense of humor. And I became very friendly with him and I loved, I used to really enjoy talking to him. There were things like he'd been involved in developing things on the

lunar lander and I knew somebody who'd worked on the lunar lander and they told me something about the lunar lander and because Nate knew about that. We bansed off that. And it just got more and more interesting. And then one day I rang him and he was getting really ill. And I could hear a kind of a change in his voice. And I felt really sad because it was obvious he was ill. And he went, why don't you ask me the question? No way. He was the guy who suggested I ask it. Oh, wow. He kind of knew you were.

Oh, yeah. He knew why I was there. Yeah, I'd made no secret that I was. writing a book about UFOs. Uh-huh. You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show? Lately, I've been thinking a lot about aging, not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slow recovery, lower energy, that middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore.

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Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. Why don't you ask me the question? And I was nervous. I was actually slightly nervous. And I've never released it, but I've actually got a recording of this. Oh, my God. And he had authorized me to record it. Of course.

And I went, I've been agonising about how to ask you this question. And he went, third time, why did you just ask me the question? And so I went, have you ever been read in to any kind of program involving unidentified aerial phenomena, alien technology? And before I finished answering the question, he went, yes. Wow. And he obviously made him the decision to answer the question. And I actually didn't hear him the first time he said it.

I was expecting him to go, no, I don't know. Because everybody was saying, no, I don't know anything about what you're talking about. Well, actually, no, that wasn't true. I'd already had people confirm the retrieval program. But there was a kind of a beat, one, two. And then I went, what? Yeah. And out of respect to Nate, Annette and his family, I'm not going to go into a lot of detail of the remaining parts of the conversation because what he then did for me was incredible. He facilitated introductions to people. And that was my big breakthrough. Wow. And will that conversation ever come out? I think I'd want his family's okay about it.

Sure. Because it's an emotional thing, I think, for a family to hear a father's voice, for he's been passed for so long. Yeah. But he was a beautiful guy, and it was an act of courage on his part. And I remember one of the conversations I had with him was, do you think there's any good reason? Because this is the thing I wrestle with,

as I know you do as well. What's the dirty secret? Right. Why? Why can't we know this? You know, if the US has recovered technology, why can't we know? And he hadn't been told that. And he had that rigid doctrinaire thing about how he wasn't read into that part of it.

And that was a compartmentalized issue. He wasn't entitled to know about. What he told me was that he'd been told that the United States had recovered multiple craft. Wow. And he implied very strongly that Roswell, in another case, I'm interested in Aztec and Kingman were all real incidents. And that really rocked my worldview. But what happened was he also told me that he, because there was another time I asked him.

I said, have you actually seen evidence of alien technology? And he went, no. And I was kind of disappointed because he implied that he had. And then he gave me this cheeky look. And because we were talking on Zoom. And I said, have you ever been given anomalous technology that defied prosaic explanation? And he went like he hit the first time. Yes.

Wow. And then he told me this amazing story about how he was an expert in a particular type of welding called electron beam welding. Okay. And apparently his company had done the nose wheel for the C-47, one of the big cargo planes used by the U.S. military, and they need really tough welds. And this is one of the strongest welds you can do of metals.

And he was like the world expert with his company in that type of welding. And it's an indistinguishable bead, unlike, I don't know if you've ever welded, but welds leave a big bead. This type of welding didn't. And so he was contacted on his own admission by Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. And I think it was even whatever the technology division is known as now. I think it might be the foreign technology exploitation, something or other. And he was flown to Wright-Pat.

And he did go underground. I remember I giggled. And I said, did you go underground? He went, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was obviously a long way down. and he was taken into a room under heavy guard and shown what he described to me as the piece of a bulkhead.

And he said, it looked like it should have been incredibly heavy, but it was almost light, almost lightweight, you know, like a feather. Yeah. And he said, what blew him away was, and I don't know enough about metallurgy to know this, but he said there were two types of metal, and he wouldn't tell me what types of metal they were that it had been bonded.

And he asked to look at it, I think under an electron scanning microscope. And the scientist in him couldn't resist giving that sense of awe about what he saw that he said it was bonded at the atomic level. Whoa. Whoever had built this had layered it atom by atom. And he said, I know for a fact, that's not a technology, certainly, that I'm aware of.

And I would have thought that I would have known. Yeah, I think, like, semiconductors, you can do little amounts of atomic layer deposition, but you can't fabricate at scale materials that are atomically, you know, where you're deliberately placing atoms. You just can't do that. That's amazing. So I think for me, the big aha moment where I stopped being the skeptic and went, oh fuck this is real i can't believe this and i remember i actually spent days just going for walks

because i was writing my book and it had it had actually altered i had a conformational bias yeah i was writing a book to debunk all this nonsense and and this guy is telling me it's true is this in plain sight by the way that you were right at the time yeah yeah and the great thing about it was um i was doing a lot of traveling for 60 minutes and channel seven to big net works in Australia. And I was often in America. And as part of cost cutting, they'd often leave you in a hotel for a few days while you shared the crew with another reporter. And so you'd have done time when really all you wanted to do was be with your family. And you're sitting in a hotel in Washington or New York. And it sounds like fun, I know. And once you've tried on the fluffy

dressing gun and used the buff salts once, you're just a bit bored. And so I would, I'd research things and I was going to the National Archives and reading a lot of the old archives on UFOs and then that organized for me to start meeting people and that was like UAP 101 and there was just this conga line of people

coming through an apartment I rented that were brave, amazing people. It's amazing. Well, it's amazing. how deeply embedded you became, because if I remember correctly, Grush had come out and you guys had had some mutual contacts before he came out. Yeah, that's true.

And with Jake Barber, I believe you knew him for like a couple of years before he came out. I can't say how long I knew I've a man, but basically it's just to protect them. But basically, yeah, I learned about David Grush from people in the program. I just think that's important for the audience to hear because, you know, they think it's some like choreographed thing or whatever. You know, people have always got this idea that all that happens is these people come to you and you interview them. It's a really lazy job. Yeah.

And they have no idea. Honestly, I used to have a full head of hair. And the job of, it's a bit like you. I really admire the way you do your stuff because you actually know a lot of science and a lot of physics. And you do. And I love the way you demonstrate that knowledge in the shows that you do. Thank you. Whereas I honestly am not a science.

scientist. But what I do is I'm really good, and I learned this at law school, at absorbing huge amounts of information, complex information, and analyzing it and understanding it and making sure I understand it. Because at law school, we had the Socratic method where you were tested orally about your understanding of something, and you were put on the spot by the lecturer and questioned in front of 300 other students. And if you didn't know your stuff, you were humiliated and vilified. And I was never going to let that happen. And I was humiliated and vilified on constant occasions. And so you're like Pavlovian conditioned. Yeah, yeah. It's terror training. Yeah. That's right. And so I learned subjects so that I could hold conversations with people.

And I'd read scientific American articles and try and understand them. And I, for the life of me, couldn't. And I'd get friendly physicists or neuroscientists to explain me. things to me. And it's by demonstrating a knowledge or an understanding or just enough to be able to have a conversation with somebody that increases the flow. And so sometimes I'd come out of a conversation and I'd go, I think I've got what they're talking about. And there's a lot of ideas that people were discussing with me that frankly, now that I'm into consciousness and psionics and stuff like that. I'm only now beginning to understand. And it's seven years since I had those conversations. It's wild how much your kind of aperture opens up getting it. I mean,

I'm curious as to like how you feel now, because you've broken all these stories. You can't really argue with the substance of a lot of the stories. You can't argue with the people's backgrounds, you know, their credentials. Like you can't really do that. And so I imagine you feel, like you're on this like remote island and then like you have you know I feel this at least you have like mainstream media or news and they just it's like they can't even comprehend like where you are you know it's funny I'm so glad you've led me into this path because I'm going to give you my rant I think there will come a time in the not too distant future where there will be a bloody reckoning with the failure of the mainstream media in the main to deal with the greatest

disinformation operation in human history. Yes. Yeah. It has been the most effective sci-op ever run. But you also realize when talking to a lot of these people, the sci-op, maybe it's at the top, like, okay, I'll give you a crazy story. Sure. A friend of mine was planning an officer.

with a former cabinet member in the U.S. The cabinet member wanted to know where they were, they were expressing frustration about their lack of access to UFO stuff. I decided to help him out because he was having trouble with the Wall Street Journal getting this published, which is just prima facie. Crazy if you take that claim at face value. Even just the fact that the cabinet member is claiming it. Well, I mean, what made the New York Times publish it in 2017, the mere fact that the Pentagon

was looking at UFOs was a story. It's, there you go. Which is, that is a story, right? And so, and then you get into all these questions of like, why did the New York Times reject the Grush story? It's crazy. But in this case, I'm talking to this journalist at the Wall Street Journal, trying to help my friend out.

And she's actually somewhat open-minded, but like she just, you know, it's one of these things where it's like, it seems so beyond the pale. And if you don't understand the deeper research and you haven't gone down the rabbit hole. It's kind of like in one ear at the other. And she then says, I don't know, we have this, we have this like consultant that we talk to about UFOs here. And his name is David Spurgel. And you know where I'm going with this. And David Spurgel tells me that it's all space, trash, temperature inversions and light reflections. And in my head, I'm thinking that's exactly what Don Mansell would say in the 50s to throw people off the trail. And David Spurgel not only did

the NASA UAP review panel in 2023, but he happens to run the Simon's Foundation, you know, uh, and, uh, you know, as a scientific advisor and is very embedded in like, you know, DOE research. And that's where if you both, if you know what we both know, that's where the bodies are buried.

Absolutely. No, and it's funny. I, I, I, one of the things in my line of work is, we have a vulgar expression, which is always assume a fuck up before a conspiracy. Like conspiracies happen so really. And invariably, it's the screw-ups that are the explanation rather than an active conspiracy. In this case, I have been led reluctantly to the conclusion. This is a conspiracy, that there really is a group, a cabal, a leadership cabal that is actively conniving to deceive

the public. Why do you think that, going back to your earlier question of like, what's the big deal? why do you think they hide it? I think they've convinced themselves because I actually asked somebody from Lockheed Martin this. Perfect. What's up, guys? I want to tell you about my new favorite boots. These things are epic.

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After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. So somebody rang me out of the blue from Lockheed Martin. I won't say who they are and convey who they are. They were an executive, a very senior executive. And we were playing a delicate dance. They'd heard me say something. And they were thanking me for not putting them in it

and for more accurately reflecting the true state of events about something. And essentially it was an implicit acknowledgement by that Lockheed Martin executive that they are holding alien technology. And I just blurted it out. I said, look, can I ask you a question? I said, I promise you, I'm not recording you. Why? Why not just come out and say it?

He said, it's not us. Yeah. He said, it's the agency. Interesting. He said, we want to do it. And then that's how I found out about the attempt by Bigelow Aerospace. Right. There's this bullshit story about meta materials that God bless them, Leslie and Ralph put in the New York Times story.

that was always nonsense. It wasn't meta-materials. It was a spacecraft. Lockheed Martin was going to pass on control of an alien spacecraft to Bigelow Aerospace. That's the real story. And you hear rumors that maybe it was the Kingman craft in 2003. And so the interesting thing is the CIA intervened to stop that from happening, or at least the Office of Global Access, as it was once known.

And it was Glenn Gaffney, right? it was now... It's interesting. I'm not 100% sure it was Glyn Gaffney. People have denied that from the inside, but I don't know if that's disinformation. Okay. Glyn Gaffney's definitely been involved in the cover-up. Right.

Yeah. No, for sure. Yeah. And Australia, I remember when I first met you, it was at the Soul Foundation a couple years ago. And Australia has its own fascinating history that I remember asking you about at the time. You have this guy named Harry Turner. Oh, I love Harry Turner.

Tell us about Harry Turner. Well, good friend of mine, Bill Chalker, who's probably Australian. earlier's preeminent UAP researcher, he got to know Harry really well while Harry was alive. And Harry had been, in his youth as a young 20-something, a young physicist recently qualified from Melbourne University. And he expressed an interest in investigating UFOs to the then government. And they'd invited him to come on board back in those more learned and insightful days when governments didn't try and hide evidence of UFOs, they invited this young physicist in

to analyse UFO sightings because they were like the Americans trying to investigate them. And we were involved in a collaborative relationship with America providing information to Project Blue Book, handing over some of the more interesting Australian and New Zealand sightings cases. And there was a collaborative exchange of data and information, which there still is secretly, but I won't get to that until later. But the interesting thing is Harry Turner somehow fell into the Maralinga nuclear test. program. And when the British were developing their nuclear weapon, God bless the British, they let their bombs off in the middle of Australia. And I've been involved in doing stories about what a dreadful scandal that was and how Aboriginal people died in their droves from horrible cancers and so did the servicemen who were involved in supervising the tests. But there's two ranges.

There's the Maralinga range where the bombs were tested, and there's the Woomera range where they tested the ICBMs. And Woomera is still very active. It's where the Americans have secretly been testing hypersonic missile technology. And there's a huge level of collaboration secretly between Australia and the US where a lot of your dirty aerospace gets brought out to Australia. And funnily enough, it's neither here nor there. I've had many Aboriginal communities that are often the only communities out there in these remote parts of Australia. who've described black triangles flying over their communities, silent black triangles.

Something is, I'm sure, being tested in the Australian art back. Wow. But Harry, whenever the nuclear tests started, I think it was in the 1950s and into the 60s, he was the supervising physicist on the range at Maralinga. And he was invited to investigate multiple U.S. UAP sightings that took place at Merrillinger during the sightings. And there are still reports in the archives of those UAP sightings, and I put a lot of

them in my book. And there's a young fellow who, I've just put an article of his up on a website in Australia, Reese Stelton Moore, and he's basically, his grandfather ran the Wormorah test range. And it turns out he was secretly involved in investigating Ries Stilton Morgan, I apologize. And his grandfather was involved in secret investigations with the British government in the late 1950s, late 1940s in Britain into UFOs.

And so it turned out there's this whole area of physicists, including Harry Turner, who were witness to UFO incidents in their droves in the Maralinga and Woomera Test Range areas during the 50s and the 60s. And so after he'd done that work, Harry went on to work in the equivalent of the DIA, the Defence Intelligence Agency in Australia, which at the time was known as the Joint Intelligence Organization, J.I.O.

And he in 1972 wrote an extraordinary paper, which lots of people keep on sending me going, wow, you must read this, Ross. You wouldn't know about this. And I've blooming written chapters about it and talked about it for years. I find it fascinating. Harry wrote this definitive piece, which basically was a report to the chief of JIO, recommending that the Defence Department of Australia set up a UFO flying squad to investigate UFOs. And it was under serious active consideration. You can see that they weren't going to dismiss their chief scientist in a hurry. And he made a very authoritative argument that the Americans were essentially lying.

And I have a strong suspicion because there was an enormous amount of liaison between physicists from America and physicists from Australia that there was a bit of cross-pollamation that Harry had picked up stuff from American nuclear physicists who were aware of the early stages of the American legacy program. Well, you told me one time that like some of the graybeards you've spoken to in the Australian context talked about Robert Sarbacher coming and visiting them. Robert Saabaker was definitely involved in liaison. And the most interesting thing is a lot of the Australian scientists, including Harry at one stage, went on expeditions to the Pacific tests because the Americans were trying to suck up to us for exploding bombs in our backyard

by inviting us to be part of these tests and to be witnesses to them. And of course they were polluting vast parts of Micronesia and spraying nuclear residue all over, huge parts of the Marshall Islands and Johnson Adol, huge numbers of communities. I've been out to the Marshall Islands and Johnson Atoll briefly. And it is really quite amazing to think that they were exploding thermonuclear weapons in the open. But I think there was a lot of cross-pollination there as well between Australian scientists and American scientists. That's pretty obvious. Harry picked up a lot

of information and he wrote this absolutely candid analysis that the Americans clearly have some kind of retrieval program. He talked about Roswell, he talked about other retrievals, and he talked about how the Americans were clearly keeping this from us. And look, even in present day, this is strategically significant for us in Australia, because I was involved in 1994, that's how old I am, in another story about spies, where I revealed that our intelligence service, the equivalent of the CIA, ASIS in Australia, did plausibly deniable favours for its

allies, America and the UK, under the Five Eyes Alliance. And there were amazing examples of plausibly deniable favors where, for example, Australian technical operators, people who did bugging and tapping,

were borrowed by the Brits. And MI6 would ring the Australians and say, I say, old chap, can I borrow one of your tech ops, lads? And we spoke to some of these people who were involved in these technical operations, and they told us how one of them had flown to Kuwait after the first Gulf War. And there was a huge amount of money going for contracts for the rebuilding of Kuwait, multi-billion dollar fat, juicy cost plus contracts. And there were Australian construction companies involved in bidding wars with British companies to win these incredibly lucrative contracts. And so the Brits secretly borrowed one of the technical operators' buggers from Australia

to win a commercial advantage against Australia by bugging the Kuwaiti government offices on behalf of British intelligence. And it blew me away. I verified this directly with some of the people involved in the operation that Australian spooks were used this way as plausibly deniable operatives to do things that the British wanted to be entirely off the books. And if they'd been caught doing it, they would have, it would have been my government, Australian government, that was compromised, not the Brits. And we've been doing this kind of dirty work for years in the Five Eyes Alliance. That story was like incendiary inside the Five Eyes Alliance. I know it upset a lot of people because

it revealed the dirty little secret that the Kiwis and the Aussies and to a lesser extent the Canadians, they do the shit that the Brits and the Americans want to deny, including spying on their allies and bugging, including in some cases their allies. And I met this group of people who'd been involved in these operations. And that was always in the back of my mind when I was investigating the UFO stuff. So when I later on started investigating UAP retrieval operations, I knew people from special forces in Australia, including retired Special Forces people who'd worked in a particular era when I knew there were allegedly American retrieval operations involving UFOs. And they told me they'd been

involved in retrieval operations. And the incredible thing was, the Australian government was never briefed into these retrieval operations. Wow. They were paid cash US dollars just to keep their mouth shut. They were asked to sign NDAs. And if you think about it, It's perfect. Yeah. There were no US personnel involved in this operation. Right. Right.

And it's not even... The Australian government didn't know. And these guys walked away with fat checks and were kept very happy. This is why the fact of the Canadian involvement in retrievals and reverse engineering efforts has been kept so secret for so long. Because Canadian scientists have been and are involved in the legacy program. And it's been kept secret. from the Canadian people.

And the only reason I'm aware of this stuff is because I know to look for it, because of the stories I've done previously, about things like echelon and the plausibly deniable favors of secret services exchanging each other's men to do dirty tricks on each other. And that worked me up. I knew to ask the question when I was questioning people in the program, and they'd say, oh, yeah, I remember the Aussies. that guy. Yeah. And it's interesting because people wanted to talk about it because when I really

pushed the issue to come back to the actual question you'd asked me, there was no good reason for this to be kept secret. And that blew me away. And Harry Turner was the very early proponent of the fact that Australia was having the wool pulled over its eyes. Yeah. And I care about this issue. because we're currently negotiating, we've actually agreed to buy $368 billion worth of Virginia-class nuclear attack submarines from your government in America because we supposedly need them as a strategic deterrence to deal with the Chinese. And what it's really all about is helping you guys fight the next war

that they think they're going to have with China and maintaining American imperial hegemony. And there are a lot of people. people, including in a former Australian Prime Minister, I know, Paul Keating, who've said publicly, why are we so slavishly doing these things for the American alliance? And I think there's a fundamental deceit that lies at the heart of this alliance and its UAPs. And I've raised this at a very high level with our government. And I've had people in our government say to me, Ross, give me the evidence. Yeah. Well, I'm going to link that document in the description of this

video because it's an amazing document. It talks about crash retrievals. It confirms all these things that you have to kind of do deep research in the U.S. to even know, which is... No one goes to Hank's for spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice.

He asks co-pilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs to help him see if he can afford it. Co-pilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras. the dollar slice work. Now, Hank says, line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Co-Pilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365, copilot.com slash work. Blue Book is fake. Blue Book was this total PR,

you know, job to rationalize and it got playing away UFO settings in the 50s and 60s. And then it goes into the fact that the real work around anti-gravity was going on. And you had people like Oppenheimer, Wheeler, Freeman Dyson, our top scientists, all investigating this stuff. And it even lists the outposts of the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence studying this. And it talks about University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, where we know that they were funding Thomas Townsend Brown and all sorts of other, you know, anti-gravity stuff.

So it's a fascinating document. Speaking of the Marshall Islands, you before me actually broke this amazing story about Blue Gill Triple Prime. Oh, yeah. With Jeffrey Krukshank, who is a really amazing researcher and also comes. from the nuclear world. And what got you on to that story? And now, you know, I want to talk about this with you because there's a little bit of controversy around Harold Malmgren.

Well, I know. And I've seen Jeff's also published a rebuttal to Douglas Dean Johnson's hatchet job. I will link that too. Yeah. And it's interesting because I haven't had a chance to read his rebuttal yet. I thought Douglas raised some legitimate points. Totally. And I'm really interested to see the academic argument back

from Jeff, I just haven't a chance to read it yet. But yeah, I mean, how did I get into that? I was, as a young man, I was living in New Zealand when these tests were happening in some cases. And it was, I can tell you, a big issue that both the Yanks and the French, particularly the French at Murrah O'Atoe, were exploding thermonuclear weapons in our backyard. And I can remember, as a much younger journalist, I learned. how to use the archives. And one of the early documents I found in the Australian archives were

was evidence of secret testing of animals for radiation residue from those nuclear experiments that were at the time kept from the Australian and New Zealand public. And there were nuclear tides showing quite concerning levels of radioactive isotopes coming from weapons testing, including, by the way, Maralinga and other explosions. that had taken place in islands off the coast of Australia that showed that, contrary to what the public had been told, there were radioactive elements getting into the blood and the bodies of human beings. And more importantly, there was a discernible sigma move, if you like, showing a statistical lift in cancer rates. And this was never revealed. It was never talked about. And I just, I guess I grew up in that environment of deep sceptive.

I was also living in New Zealand around the time of the attack by the French on the Greenpeace boat in Auckland Harbour, where an environmental vessel that was being used by Greenpeace to go and demonstrate against the Moor-Atoll nuclear tests was blown up by the Dajé SA. French intelligence in intelligence operation, slap bang in the middle of Auckland Harbour. I mean, an incredible operation. I mean, incredible French arrogance to think that they could do that and not get caught. And the stupid buggers, if they just hadn't tried to get the deposit back on their rental car, the French would have got away with one of the most awful crimes of that time of recent history. But, you know, there was this sordid period where the great imperial powers of the world were looking for real estate to explode their nuclear weapons. and both the US and France used the South Pacific and or the Pacific. And it was a big political issue for me as a young man in New Zealand and much later in Australia as well. People were concerned about this.

Why the hell are we allowing the Yanks to do this? And when Maralinga came out, very much in 1988, there was a huge court case by servicemen in the UK where all of the dirty secrets of Maralinga came out and all of these horrible revelations of toxic radiation exposure were finally revealed. And the Maralinga Royal Commission remains, I think, one of the most sensational public inquiries of that era because essentially it was crimes committed by the state

on the justification of national security, exposing servicemen and women to high levels of radiation that in some cases killed people. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's that's the history and that's the backdrop of, you know, some of these interesting UFO stories where we do have this well-documented, you know, nuclear connection. You've interviewed Robert Hastings. I've interviewed Robert Hastings. And I do think it's interesting with this with this Malmgren case. I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence to say that this actually happened. I don't know what you think. Yeah, I mean, I'm not prepared to stake my mind. hand to my heart and say, I think Harold was telling the truth. I'm not prepared to say yet I think he was lying. And part of this has driven my deep respect and admiration for Pippa.

And I do feel the way Douglas did it was quite heartless and malicious in the way that he did it. So soon after the death of a man who a family are still treasuring, I think it could have been done in a more gentle way. and I had the feeling a little bit too much when I was reading Harold's write-up, not Harold's, Douglas' write-up. This is Douglas Dean Johnson, who wrote an analysis of the claims of Harold Mongrin that substantiated the allegation that there was a UFO retrieved in the triple blue girl, triple prime blue girl tests in the Pacific. And yes, it is odd that there's a lot of the... no paperwork that substantiates this. But is it possible, for example, that because of the role

that Harold was playing, of course there was no paperwork. Yes. Well, that is the historiography of the time. Right. We are talking to an audience that probably believes that the CIA had a hand in killing JFK. Then you ask people. I have no doubt. No doubt. Right. Yeah, they're all sure. And then you ask, okay, so how did that get coordinated? Who called the shots? And I'm like, oh, it's, it's Alan Dulles. Where was Alan Dulles at the time? Was he at the CIA? No, he wasn't. He was at the Brown Brothers Harriman, where he had left the CIA.

We're also talking to an audience that loves to talk about Tim Taylor, this, like, really interesting character that inserts himself in Diana Pesolka's life, says he's part of the secret space stuff. And where was he working? He was a national mission controller, but he was also at a federally funded research and development center called Aerospace Corporation. So that is the backdrop. That is the lens through which you have to understand that the. This guy is working at the Institute of Defense Analysis, another federally funded research and development center. Which I'm told by my intelligence friends is used as a front. It is used as a front.

He said in a 2024 interview with Robin Laird, the cover was that I was at the IDA, but in fact, I was actually helping the Joint Chiefs in the Pentagon. I know he couldn't say this and other people we both know can't reveal that the CIA as well. But do you think it's possible Harold was CIA? I do. And I'm going to be coming out with a more extensive video on this because I think it's important to say. And I actually wanted to say it as part of the story, but I wanted to respect his sort of gentlemanly desire to sort of keep it shut at the end. But here are a few fun facts.

If you watched that interview I did with him, he says, oh, I was best friends with Tom Farmer, happened to be the GC, the general counsel of the CIA. He says, you know, oh, I was living at Nabokov's house. And then Pippa says, yeah, there's all these CIA connections with Nabokov. He says he helped create the presidential daily brief, which is a CIA thing. Like over, I was holding Paul Mellon's walking stick. You think he bought that at a yard sale? Paul Mellon founded the CIA. So this is really important because a lot of the Douglas Dean Johnson, you know, debunk is like,

I spoke to an archivist here. a person here and they didn't know him. But the crux of it, the heart of it, is he didn't have a queue clearance. If that cue clearance came through him being part of the CIA, which he was part of the CIA, you wouldn't be able to query it. It wouldn't be in some FBI FOIA request. It wouldn't be written down in a file and released to the public. Absolutely not. One of the things you can make a discretionary thing to do is to redact any evidence that somebody held at queue clearance. Absolutely. Because the fact of somebody holding a cue clearance is in and of itself potentially compromising a special access program.

Yes, totally. And the Institute of Defense analysis has been formally, even on paper, involved in every single missile defense program after Blue Gill. So Stratx to Thad and Aegis now to Star Wars in the 80s. IDA has its fingerprints over all of it.

Not to mention, you'd appreciate this. Have you spoken to Bob Jacobs ever, 64? Yeah, many times. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm sure you have some great content with him. He's a really believable guy in my opinion. opinion. He was deleted by the government and that, you know, a mansman, his major in the Air Force.

What a brave act by mansmen. To go back and say, yeah. So this is a guy, just to explain to our audience, this is a guy Bob Jacobs, who as a young captain in the U.S. Air Force was asked to photograph a fairly mundane launch of an ICBM test prototype missile from Edwards Air Force base. In the course of the launch of that missile, they didn't know it at the time, but when they reviewed the film footage, There is a UFO circling the warhead and shooting at it with a laser beam. And of course, the usual suspects attacked him when he came public in Omni magazine in the 70s and basically said he'd seen this and said, that's just a load of nonsense. And to his great credit, I love the, one of the things I think we often, we tend, I certainly do in the media, you tend to assume the worst about all military and all intelligence.

But the thing I've learned, especially from reporting from war zones, is there really is an honor in the American officer class. And these men and women are inculcated with a decency that is drilled into them. It's a character thing to be truthful. And so the commanding officer of Bob Jacobs, he'd been there when they'd watched this film. And Bob asked him for support, and he supported him. and verify it that that's exactly what happened and that these two, I think, CIA guys who basically told them to shut up about it. That's exactly right.

And so the update here, why Bob Jacobs is related at all the Malmgren, is people don't know this. I have footage of Bob Jacobs. Bob Jacobs was stationed at Johnson atoll, but in 1963. So a year after Blue Gill. Bob, you had such an interesting experience at Vandenberg in 64. I didn't realize you were actually stationed at the Marlonson. Marshall Islands before that, and that you were involved in the Operation Fishbowl test, is that right?

First of all, I was officer in charge of optical instrumentation in Vanderburt, the 13th Circuit I Photo Squadron. As such, we were charged with high-speed insertation photography of every single missile launched down the western test range. We had a detachment in Johnson Island in the Marshals, and I was sent down there for a period of time, and I believe it was November of 1960. 63, not 62. The scuttled up at the time by every single person on that island, when I got there,

this was engineers, technicians, my airmen who had been down there before me, we were told that what happened is the Soviets have launched a nuke into orbit up above us. And JFK told Khrushchev, take that down. Pristov said, I won't do it. JFK said, then we'll shoot it down. And Crucef said, you don't have the technology to do that. We were down there, according to the common talk at the time, to shoot down that nuclear missile, that nuclear weapon in orbit.

I was told that that lunch had happened and that several things had happened because of it. First of all, something had fallen down toward the island from that explosion in the sky. and explosion lit up the entire South Pacific and caused all sorts of alarm and reports of UFOs and so on. And something could have been recovered. I was never told what it was. So that's fascinating.

I actually want to be clear. The incident that I'm referring to is the Blue Gill Triple Prime test, which is at the end of Operation Fishbowl in October of 1962. It's October 26. So it's during the Cuban missile crisis. And so you're saying that the kind of rumors at the time, you know, at the bar sort of thing,

were that Soviet warhead was actually knocked out of the sky as a part of that operation. Is that right? That's what we understand, yes. But here's what's interesting. We've never had nukes in space. No. And not to my knowledge. So unless there's some double story here where like, you know, we actually did take out a

nuke in space, which I don't think we did. It sounds like an ex post facto sciope. disinformation operation. That's right. But even then, there were widespread rumors of people on the ground that there was a UFO shootdown that's taken place. And the only alternative is a nuke, which obviously isn't true. So I find that very interesting. Along with if there were, there's a FOIA request of the National Nuclear Security Administration. And it was for everything, you know,

all these UFO related acronyms. And this was around Starfish prime. So it was a little earlier. And they basically say the responsive records, you know, we can't give you any of the responsive records, showing that there are responsive records with those names in them. And it says, the subject matter expert, we have to consult them on this topic or whatever. So there are, there's a lot in my opinion of circumstantial evidence. Yeah, I mean, I keep on coming back to the fact that if there's a stinky dirty secret, you don't write it down. Right. And if, if Harold, as he alleged, was working, for example, in the White House undercover,

they wouldn't put his name in the address book. I'm still keeping it open in mind, and I think it's slightly naive to think that everything would be written down. Well, I've also seen his diaries, which are now in a safe place and they're backed up, so don't mess with them. And I have seen a lot of meetings

between Harold Malmgren and Richard Bissell in the diary. Richard Bissell who founded Area 51, mayor of Area 51. And it was key to Harold Malmgren's claims that he was read into the existence of the legacy UAP retrieval program by Richard Bissell. There you go. Yeah. Who went on to become a deputy director of the CIA.

That's right. He went on and become the number two at the CIA. So fascinating. You know, along the lines of what we were talking about earlier, you've probably met more people in and around these programs than anybody. else alive from the outside. Please don't say that too loudly. You know, it's funny when I came through on the weekend to come here, I was actually

nervous. I've never been nervous coming into the US before, but there's been a lot of stories in the Australian press about young people who were just turned away by border protection for no good reason and harassed for no good reason. And there's been a change of culture at the border. And I have to admit. I had my computer on auto delete if it was opened. Yeah.

Wow. When I came through customs. Wow. And I was ready to go live on national television if I was detained by border protection. Wow. Which actually happened to me after I did the grush story. Really? Yeah.

After I did the grush story, I was detained and held by CBP. Oh my God. And a mutual friend of ours made some inquiries and confirmed that there'd been some kind of a flag put on my on my file. And unfortunately, it was so high level. They couldn't access it. But basically somebody, I suspect, from the agency had flagged, we want to know when Kulteart comes through next,

and let's cause them some mischief. And I have to admit, I, um, we have a youth from us in Australia tearing somebody a new asshole. I, I just wasn't going to put up with it. And I, I very,

I summoned my anger and basically yelled at border protection and said, I strongly advise that you get on the phone, whoever it is that's flagged me, contact them now or tell them I will be going live on television in about 10 minutes to talk about the fact that I'm being illegally held. I have a valid visa. You have no good reason to hold me. If you want to fight, you can have one. And I was let out. Good for you, man. Well, I think you're hopefully you're protected and you're protected by the public because I think, you know.

Well, it's funny. Look, I must confess I've been quite. quite humbled coming to where we are, which is a UFO. I'm sure everybody knows who you are. I've been mobbed. Yeah, I believe it. And it's funny. My wife and children think it's hilarious that there is this fandom.

There's even a guy, God bless him in Germany, who's done a three-dimensional model of me with far too much hair, which is quite flattering. It doesn't show the gut and it doesn't show the lack of hair. And my wife and children just wanted to know whether it had a bobblehead like this so we could stick it on the front of the car. Oh, my God. That's amazing. That's hilarious.

But, you know, I'm really touched by the fact that people care about this issue. And just to make it serious for a moment, the issue is still ridiculed in much of the British-style English-language Australasian press. You know, I get mocked and ridiculed by my journalist colleagues because I take UFOs seriously. You know, and people will pejoratively sneer. How's your UFO obsession, Ross? or there's actually a national broadcaster, the ABC in Australia, and one pompous twat on that broadcaster said, oh, Ross Coulter, he's been investigating UFOs. He's either completely crazy or he's the best journalist ever.

That's the best comic that you could ever yet. But it was a snide, it was deliberately snide because the clear inference was I was a shithouse. I was a shithouse journalist and I was obviously going crazy. But the thing I'm really heartened, by is the degree of interest that sparked me getting hired by News Nation is incredible. When we did the David Grush interview, News Nation admittedly not at the time of very high rating news chat. No, you brought it on the map.

It escalated its ratings by 990%. That was written up in the industry press. It's amazing. And they still say to me that UFOs is the issue that saved the network. work. Yeah. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs.

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This is a job for Indeed. or jobs. And it's a really interesting issue because the audience, no matter what the mainstream media do to ignore this issue, you know, you've got the doctrinaire attitude of the New York Times. We're not going to do you of those stories. We're going to reject the David Grush story. Which is crazy. The Jake Barber story wouldn't fly in any of the national media. I don't think it's had a coverage anywhere. I don't think it's had a coverage. Yes. And yet the public, they make it clear they really want this story. That's right.

And they can smell another journalistic euphemism I'll give you. They can smell a smelly turd when they smell one. And this story stinks to high heaven. Yeah. And they can smell bullshit. And what fascinates me is particularly the younger generation. I'm amazed. I've never had a story.

I've always been the kind of old fart of journalism, you know. and doing investigative stories that not many people are really that interested in, but they matter because they're sort of interesting points of principle. This one really captures the imagination of the millennials and the X generation. It's amplifying what I do on News Nation. And I don't know how to use Instagram or TikTok, but there are kids that are making a living out of repackaging my stories on Instagram and TikTok, and my daughters are constantly coming to me saying,

Dad, have a look at this. This guy's making a fortune over doing your stories on TikTok. And I go, look, I don't know how to do it. I haven't got time to do it. Good luck to them. You know, it's great. But what it's done is it's generated this massive audience. And I'm not trying not to sound boastful, but, you know, we're routinely getting millions of views for stories that, frankly, I'm genuinely surprised and excited and interested that people are watching them.

Well, you're doing an amazing job. And just a recent one, which I was. watching in preparation for this and I was so fascinated by is you were in Sedona, Arizona. Oh, yeah. And it would, like, if you watch, watch this video, it is the most mind-blowing video ever. Let me tell you, let me tell you. I am in no doubt whatsoever, Jesse, that there is a deep underground military bunker that was built in the 1950s under Secret Mountain. That's what it's called. It's the hilarious thing. It's named Secret Mountain. It's called Secret Mountain. Near Sedona. It's within five, seven kilometres of Sedona. And more importantly, there's a place called Secret Canyon where there's allegedly a portal, some kind of interdimensional portal. And I thought all of this was just crazy nonsense. But there are incredibly brave and super, super interesting people, Jeremiah Horstman and his wife, Alexandra, particularly, who live in Sedona. And they've been doing some really clever

on the ground research. And one of the things we did, a lot of the stuff we got, as so often happens, you can't put it in the story because you can't get these people to go on camera. But there was a number of people who would privately admit that they'd been walking in what is public land, public parkland, and they'd be stopped by men with guns, men in uniform, with automatic weapons, clearly highly trained elite soldiers, probably tier one operatives, the way they moved and they would basically order people, go away or we will kill you. No mucking around. And there are sightings, numerous sightings of what we saw. I saw it with my own

eyes. I was told that the best time of night is around about 1.30 in the morning. And if you looked at a particular place over Secret Mountain, you would see this big orb being escorted by helicopters rising from behind secret mountain. So I was skeptical, but we went out with a local lady Melinda Leslie who has some good quality military grade night vision goggles. And we watched at 1.30 in the morning. And sure enough, up comes this beautiful golden orb, gigantic. It pulses, it's plasmatic. It slowly moves off. And the way it moved, you couldn't tell if it's because it got smaller or wherever it went so fast that it just disappeared so quickly, but it just disappeared. And they were. They were being escorted by military Blackhawk helicopters.

Dozens of them. I mean, the helicopter fuel bill alone for the evening that we're watching them must have been somewhere between $50,000 to $100,000. Somebody is paying huge money to operate orbs with no visible means of propulsion over secret mountain in Sedona and it's funny because one of the people told us that if you want to hide something

you hide it in plain sight and that's the best way to describe what's going on in what I think is happening in Sedona do you think that's NHA, non-human? Do you think it's man-made? I mean, there are allegations that that base is NHA. I've had people who are psionic tell me that they have detected N.H.I. In that area. Sedona is also a strange place. It's a place everybody says when you go, weird stuff happens. Yeah, no, it does. And I never expected to see such overt displays of obviously anomalous technology in company with obviously military.

tree-style aircraft. And you show footage, which is amazing. And then you also show all these sort of logical fallacies of the cover story where it's like, I think there's like a contract between Northern Arizona University. Yeah. But like none of the professors ever show up or whatever. And it's funny because what we're talking about is the Bradshaw Ranch. And there's allegedly a portal in the Bradshaw ranch that was seen by the former owner of the ranch, Linda Bradshaw. and she actually took photographs of it. And it opened up in a particular area of the ground around that ranch, which just so happens to be the area that's fenced off.

And we noticed that there is a tower in the middle of that area. This is supposedly a deserted ranch. There's nobody there. There's no electrical power. And there's solar panels on this post that has a camera. Now, if you're protecting the security, of what is supposedly an academic research institution, you have the camera pointed out

so that you can see people coming from the outside. Yeah. But you know where the camera's pointing? Where? It's pointing exactly at the point where Linda Bradshaw says she saw the portal. And then the other thing we noticed when we were there, and this was picked up by my friend Paul,

who's an Australian ground penetrating radar operator, he heard a humming. And he kicks a bush aside, and there's this gigantic three-phase power-power box with a cable definitely going into the ground. Wow. Three-phase power, and it's humming. And then we walk a bit further around, and there's another one.

And there's massive amounts of electrical power going into the ground under Bradshaw Ranch. And we didn't put this in the feature-link film that we put to air on primetime, but it runs in the full-length interview with Paul, my friend. He did a ground penetrating radar check on the road around Bradshaw Ranch, and we found a 50-foot-wide, reinforced steel concrete, highly visible on ground penetrating radar, literally just under the ground.

Whoa. I mean, I'm in no doubt whatsoever it's there. Can you get down there? No. I mean, I was half tempted to get a shovel and start digging. But the interesting thing is The other thing we learned about was there's an egress point into this whole secret facility

called the Clarkdale cement plant And the weird thing about it is it's nowhere near secret mountain It's halfway between two mountain ranges But if you run a direct line between those two mountain ranges And put it through Bradshaw Ranch Where we know there's a tunnel Or at least we've picked up the tunnel and if you match the walls of the tunnel with where it goes,

it goes directly to the Clarkdale Cement Plant. And one of the things we heard about from locals was that 20 years ago, the drilling was so intense that things were shaking on the bookshelves, and they were obviously tunneling underneath the village at Clarkdale where these people live. And people were even compensated for damage. Wow. I mean, I don't understand as a journalist. I mean, I've been taught journalism to do the work on the ground and go and ask the question.

Don't accept what you're told by some defense PR flunky. Go in and check and do the basic checking. And I think the interesting thing is that this is all coming out at a time in journalism where sadly investigative journalism is in serious decline. Because even the great mass-head newspapers like the New York Times, the Wash Post, the LA Times, the Boston Globe, the Baltimore Sun, papers I grew up like I didn't have Bay City Rollers on my wall. I used to paste up big newspaper investigations. That's what I always wanted to be. And it's sad because that era of great big budget investigative journalism where they would deploy teams of people to go and investigate stuff, it's well and truly over.

And the big unspoken secret about the New York Times is even the New York Times doesn't have the resources to do this kind of journalism. But all you need to do, if I was the editor of a newspaper today, I would put 10 days into deploying a couple of investigative journalists to go up from Phoenix and have a look at what I saw in Sedona. and you will find a deep underground military facility that is highly protected, has hydraulically operated doors in the side of mountain sides, and is secretly operating what I suspect is non-human technology. It's amazing, and it corroborates, you know, Larry Saunders, who wrote a book about deep underground military bases.

Richard Saunders. Richard Saunders, sorry, thank you. And Catherine Austin Fitz, who talks about large, you know, trillions of dollars missing from the federal budget from the DoD budget to go towards these projects. So, and then Nat Kobitz's story, another story, Randy Anderson's story. At what point, though, do, I mean, this is the thing I don't get. I really don't get it.

It's almost like there's a willful blindness in, because why do we expect the mainstream media to follow this? Because they should. Yeah. No, they really should. It's like the most interesting, important thing. And it's, if you talk about like an Archimedes lever, like the point of most leverage. I mean, you can cover like local griffs, right? But why don't you cover like the trillions of dollars missing from the from the DOD's budget or why don't you, you know, this stuff?

No, I love that quote. And it's a true quote. I actually dug it out when I was writing my book that Donald Rumsfeld admitted that there was something, is it 23 trillion dollars missing from the defense budget? I think he said 2.1 trillion missing in an audit. The day before 9-11 happened. Yeah, the day before 9-11. Trillions of dollars are disappearing from the American defense budget. And that's actually one thing I really liked about what Doge was doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Musk was basically saying, why the hell do you not have the acquittal numbering that allows you to reconcile what this money is for with where it's being spent?

Well, there was an amazing, I think it was like Babylon B like headline or something. And it was Elon Musk leaves job of making government more efficient for easier job of allowing humans to occupy more, which is like, this guy doesn't give up on anything, you know, a successful car company hadn't been built in the U.S. since like the 1910s or something. And you have him build Tesla, you have single-handedly resuscitate, you know, a version of NASA with SpaceX. And he gives up with the government efficiency. I had to interview Elon in 2015. That's amazing.

I don't know that. 60 minutes. Wow. How is that? it was funny because I honestly genuinely had the feeling that like 1% of his brain was answering my questions and the other 99% was working on another problem. But the thing I was really impressed with was he was excited to show me around the SpaceX factory in LA because that was where they were building the new rockets.

And a lot of the people in SpaceX, but particularly in the Tesla factory right next door, are Aussies because the Australians had laid off. all of their car industry. We completely destroyed in an act of utter stupidity, our entire car industry. And so a lot of those engineers went to work for Elon and he loved Aussie engineers. But the thing I was really impressed with was he knew more about every aspect of the production line than anybody that he was showing us that day. And it wasn't some big performance. He really did know.

and he was asking about metal tolerances and, you know, he really knew his stuff. Every aspect of that production line, he knew intimately. And you could see he had everybody on his toes. And frankly, if you're going to be running a rocket business or an electric car business, that's exactly the kind of propriety you want. No, he's incredibly impressive. He has a unique mind and ability to make things happen. Or albeit I'm sure he's probably highly annoying.

live with. I'm sure. And probably hiding something when it comes to the UFO issue, because why... I think he's been written. I think he has to. I've been told he's been read in. Yeah, I think so, too. Speaking of which, speaking of high-level people that you've spoken to, you were interviewed by Don Jr. by the son of the sitting president before you broke the Jake Barber's story. What was that like and did it give you any hope as far as American movement on disclosure at the highest level? If Don Trump Sr. listens to his son, Don Trump, Jr. is very engaged and interested in UFOs. And in a really well-informed way as well.

I mean, he's been briefed by a lot of people. And there's been a lot of, well, not a lot, but there's been multiple secret briefings of the Trump camp before they came into government. And it's interesting because I am persuaded, not at the moment though I'm seeing any action, but I am persuaded that people like Tulsi Gabbard, Nash Patel and the FBI. Tulsi, of course, is the DNI, the Director of National Intelligence, John Ratcliffe at the CIA. These are all people who've previously expressed a strong desire to get to the truth of the UAP mystery.

And I don't think it's any coincidence that Representative Anna Paulina Luna when she was tweeting earlier this week about what I hope plus cause arrow is that's the Pentagon UFO investigation office. Good for her. She made the observation that they were obviously a waste of money and should be defunded. She implied that the money should go to someone else. And I think that's the FBI she's talking about. Yeah. Because I'm told that the briefing that the FBI gave in Congress really blew people away

and watch that FBI ongoing investigation. I've dealt with some of the people on the investigation team. I like G men. They're like dogs on a bone. And they're looking at crimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because ultimately, if what we're talking about here is true, David Grush, Jake Barber, they have insinuated and alleged are right in Jake's case that people have been murdered.

That's right. To protect the secret. Yeah. It's a capital crime. Yeah. There are people who I suspect are very nervous right now. in the legacy program because they are under active FBI investigation. Yeah, I wonder what the mentality is.

Arrogance. Yeah, probably. Smug arrogance. I have no doubt they think they're going to get away with it. Uh-huh. And you know what? Why? They probably will.

Oh, no. Don't say that. No, I'm pretty bleak. I'm not, I actually had an argument earlier on today, actually. Well, not an argument, but a free and frank exchange of views with a lawyer who's been liaising with Congress. And they were having a bit of go at me because I talked about how I'm talking to legacy program whistleblowers who want to come forward.

Yeah. But they're wary of coming forward. And they took a swipe at me and basically said, we've got all these protections in Congress. You should bring them in and encourage them to come in. And I said, well, hang on a bloody moment. Look at what they've done with David Grush's allegations. That's right. Sweet F.A.

Yeah. You know, David gave them first-hand. direct information from his sources of where to look, where to find the spacecraft. Yes. Where to literally go and open the door. Oh, by the way, there's a spacecraft recovered from Aztec. Open this door, oh, yeah, that's the one from Kingman. That's right.

You know, who's the person in charge? What's the title of the program? What's the code name? He gave them chapter and verse. How many subpoenas have been issued Senate Select Committee for Intelligence for any of that information? NADA. So crazy.

fucking NADA. And so I don't think Congress is doing its job. And frankly, I do get the impression that congressional staffers are captive to the defense establishment. Yeah. I mean, that feels right. I mean, the last time around the UAPDA was killed by Mike Turner, where like, you know, his largest donors were all defense. No, but I mean, it's funny because I mean, a lot of the work has done in this preliminary investigation of allegations made by people like David Grush, by people like Lou Elizondo, people like Jake. Barber, when they've gone in and given evidence in camera, in skiffs, as they all have done to the Congress, the people that have been sitting there have been staffers. Yeah.

And they're good people. They're well-intentioned good people. But one of the things Jake Barber told me when he was giving his direct evidence of the legacy program, first person evidence. I mean, people say, where's the evidence? The first person evidence of Jake Barber was given to the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence. And one of the staffers on that committee was concerned for his own safety and asked Jake, are you able to help me get security because somebody from the Defence Department is ordering helicopters to fly across and over my home? They're harassing my home.

And that's the kind of thing that the Defence Department was doing. They were buzzing a guy with Black Hawk helicopters just hovering over his home as an act of intimidation. A staffer working for the Congress. I know exactly who you're talking about, and he was providing a pipeline of legacy operators to basically talk to the Senate, the select Senate committee. So I'm not blaming the staffers because these people are intimidated. They have families too. And I don't think the public realized that this is how the game is. being played. You've got a vast national security state, and it is truly a deep state,

protecting itself, its self-interest, misusing the resources of the state, your money, your taxpayer dollars, to essentially bully and intimidate, and at some cases, murder people. Yeah. It's, and that's where I sort of go, there are so many times when I sit back in this story and I go, hell's bells, this is like a thriller. It's like a John Grisham thriller. But it's true. Yes. And it's being ignored by the premier national security reporters of the land.

I mean, any sane, rational editor who has an ounce of journalistic respect for himself and his bones would deploy staff to at least go and check out the basic allegations. See if the 170 odd queue cleared, you know, people seeing UFOs around our most sensitive sites, shutting them. shutting them down in certain cases might be somewhat credible. Like maybe, maybe check that out. Yeah. It's crazy. But you know what I'm enjoying. I'm enjoying the tyranny of the internet. Yeah. Yeah. Are actually generating programs. In your case, you're actually making a living by the looks of it. Yeah. Doing stories on this phenomenon and reporting on it. And it's interesting because that proves to me there is an audience there that want this stuff. Oh, yeah. There really is.

I think it resonates deeply with what they intuit about reality themselves, which is that there's more. And that, you know, there have been sort of secret programs around these things hidden from them for a very long time. And with AI and with the Internet, you can vigilante corroborate and research a lot of this stuff yourself. And so I think people are waking up post-pandemic, as much as I share your pessimism around government action on the topic, I do think the larger, you know, public. is waking up to these broader realities, and that's exciting. I'll tell you this. If you accept psionics, which of course the debunkers won't, they saying disclosure is coming.

Interesting. Wow. Yeah. Well, that it's... There's a perturbation in the force, Luke. Yeah, well, hey, I think the government itself accepts psionics, as we know through their remote viewing programs that they funded for decades. Yeah, I mean, that's the other double-think.

You know, we're told, and there's a whole movie made about it, debunking the idea of telepathy and psychics and psionics. And yet you've only got to read the CIA gateway documents in the CIA files and they show that that's actually not true. Yes. That essentially everybody took it very, very seriously. And I've spoken to people who've confirmed that there is still an ongoing psionic operation being run in the Pentagon. Clearly. Well, the nominal reason for shutting it down in 1995 was there was only offense. There was no defense. Why would you shut a program down where there's still offense and it's still working? Offensive makes no sense. Yeah. No, I just, I mean, I don't know why people buy this, you know. Is it because they're so distracted covering the Ukraine war or, I mean, I don't get it. I mean, at what point did the lack of curiosity begin? I don't know. Well, it's something.

I've found anecdotally that I wonder if this is in accordance with your experience, meeting a lot of these guys with long government histories and serious credentials, they're often more conspiratorial than people in the public. You expect you, you know, a conspiracy theorist to be this tinfoil hat, you know, they live in their mom's basement or something. They're like, they're watching crazy shit on the news. But no, this is, these people have serious credentials. Their version of reality is way weird.

than the average person in public's reality. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's how I felt when I started getting into psionics, because one of the first things that one of my sources in that Georgetown pub back in probably 2018 told me was, it's all about consciousness. Yeah. Yeah.

And I had no idea what he was talking about. Right. Right. And it really has taken me probably seven years to actually begin to understand. And now I'm realizing more and more it's all about consciousness. Yeah. It really is. I agree.

So much is downstream of that. Well, Ross, this has been an honor. I have one final question before you before you go. Is there anything? Joe Rogan just talked about this. Everybody talks about this amazing bombshell thing that you reported on. You know what I'm going to say. Yeah.

This UFO possibly found that they needed to build a bunker around. That was like, you know, a mile plus long, anything you can say about it. I do not resile from saying what I've said previously, which is that there is a buried or at least built upon UFO that was too big to move. And that's it. Part of the reason it's actually, it's weird just how angry people get because I can't reveal it. And there seems to be this view in UAP social commentary that I'm obliged to reveal everything. No. And if I don't reveal everything, then I'm being irresponsible and I'm not helping the disclosure cause.

And one of the things that was steeped into me as a journalist, I've been privy because people started leaking to me things that they probably shouldn't have done to secrets where, including from America, I should not have them. and I've been shocked that I've had these things in my hand and I've gone, holy hell. And in some cases, I've burnt them. Wow. But the worst one for me was when I covered a I was made aware that Australia was deploying

Special Forces troops into the Iraq Desert probably three weeks before the war started. And a friendly Special Forces operator told me that this was happening. And I initially got really excited. And I actually went and spoke to an editor about it and said, look, I've got this story. I mean, they're deploying SAS trips. We're going in.

You know, we're going to be in the Western Desert. And then we kind of looked at each other and went, no. And I spoke later on. I did a story with the Australian SAS about what they'd done in the Western Desert. And I asked one of the guys who'd been there, if I'd revealed that, what would have happened? And he said, we would have been killed. Oh my God. Well, there you go. And so in the case of the buried UFO, I can't reveal, because if I reveal why I say this, it would compromise it.

It's a very sensitive place that should be enough of a guide for you. And to reveal the full extent of what I know would compromise the lives of young men and women who are doing good things for America, completely separate from the UAP program, and they're probably oblivious to what's sitting downstairs. That's as valid a reason as ever. And it also, you know, to argue on your behalf against the people that say that's bad for disclosure, you're going to torpedo your relationships. Absolutely. You know, or speaking to somebody, they're never going to speak to again if you reveal something that you promised not to.

Because I actually take it as a journalistic responsibility not to reveal something if it's going to compromise the safety of your country or Michael. country. Absolutely. And, you know, we are. I lie in bit at night worried about how dangerous things are at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Israel launched a preemptive attack on Iran in the next few weeks. I wouldn't either. It's a, it's a, it's a, the world's in a freaky place. And I think, I don't know if you have this kind of mind dialectic around the UFO issue, but I think about that. I'm like, oh, maybe UFOs don't matter. The world's going to blow up. And then I say, well, if the world's going to blow up. If there were ever a time to care about UFOs and throw a hail Mary, it would be now.

Well, one of the things I asked somebody very recently was, is there some kind of super weapon that we've got stashed away? Because I've heard this rumor, and look, to be honest with you, it's only rumor. It's people who probably wouldn't really know for sure, but they've told me secondhand stuff suggesting that the U.S. has developed what are called scalar weapons. Well, you heard the Michael Kratia's statement. But we are capable of so much more. Our technologies permit us to manipulate time and space. They leave distance annihilated. Which, you know, he's in an official position and he's... And I know, and Trump keeps on hinting that the U.S. has a weapon, a super weapon that they haven't revealed yet. But notice, Putin has said exactly the same thing.

And I have been told that the Russians have developed extraordinary weaponry. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if one of the primary reasons for the secrecy is because each nation thinks that they have an advantage with scalar weapons, but the reality is none of them do. Right. Oh, wow. That's scary that there's some sub-rosa Manhattan Project 2.0 going on. Oh, I'm sure there's a Manhattan Project 2.0 going. Well, you have these rumors that you had Kamlerstab in Nazi Germany, where they were doing kind of black world nuclear stuff. Well, I'll tell you one thing, I'm sorry, we were trying to finish, but I'll just give you this little tip. We talk forever, yeah.

There's a friend of mine who speaks to a lot of astronauts and to people who supervised astronauts. And one story that came up was that in the early days of Glasnost, when Russia and America were kind of friends again, Russia imparted to America that it was in position of a crashed craft and there was an astronaut, a known astronaut, still alive, deployed to go and actually I don't know if he's still alive, to go

and assist in the retrieval. And a lot has changed in the last, what, 25 years, 30 years since the end of the Cold War, 35 years. And it's really interesting because I suspect that there has been collaboration in the distant past between the Americans and

the Russians and that it's suited each side. to keep quiet about the fact that there is this sub-roza Manhattan project going on where essentially there's a Cold War. There's a battle for possession of and development of non-human technology. And I'm in no doubt whatsoever that that's happening. Well, that's an amazing note to end on, which is let's hope disclosure happens and these psionic viewers are correct before the world blows up.

Me too. Ross, this is an honor, man. It's a long time coming for me, and it's amazing to hear all your vast knowledge and all the stuff. And pray for your continued productivity because you are really doing the Lord's work. Well, vice versa, Jesse. I love your show. And there's plenty of room there for both of us. Awesome.

All right. Thanks, Ross. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built. for what you are building. Fit for your ambition. Our citizens back.