American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Senate Staffer Thinks Tesla & Nazi Technology is Being Hidden (ft. Kirk McConnell)

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

Ridge Wallet ➤ Take advantage of Ridge’s once-a-year anniversary sale and get UP TO 40% Off right now by going to https://www.Ridge.com/COSMIC #Ridgepod Chubbies ➤ Your summer wardrobe awaits! Get 20% off @chubbies with the code JESSE at https://www.chubbiesshorts.com/JESSE #chubbiespod #sponsored Qualia ➤ Resist aging at the cellular level, try Qualia Senolytic. Go to https://Qualialife.com/JESSE for up to 50% off and use code JESSE at checkout for an additional 15% off. For your convenience Qualia Senolytic is also available at select GNC locations near you. Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with former Senate intel staffer Kirk McConnell who goes on record after 18 years on Capitol Hill to discuss how UFO secrecy conceals exotic science. McConnell—who met firsthand with legacy crash retrieval whistleblowers and followed up on David Grusch’s claims—warns that revolutionary tech is buried in shell programs, shielded by corporate control and broken oversight. He served under Senator Jack Reed, a senior Armed Services member, during key post-9/11 reorganizations. McConnell says the U.S. may never see the benefits of this science unless Congress reasserts oversight. -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction 01:24 - Kirk’s Background 06:11 - David Grusch’s Claims 08:50 - Tesla’s Discoveries 19:20 - Extended Electrodynamics 23:11 - Nazi Technology 36:20 - Whistleblowers 41:50 - Are Whistleblowers Telling the Truth? 45:58 - How Does “The Program” Operate? 48:30 - Secret Science Technology 51:30 - Senate Armed Services 54:28 - Dick Cheney 01:00:01 - Sean Kirkpatrick 01:10:11 - UFOs and Nukes 01:29:25 - Whistleblower Protection 01:38:40 - Consciousness Connection 01:49:50 - Disclosure Under Trump 01:51:21 - Reasons For UFO Secrecy 02:02:35 - Conclusion -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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that UAP seemed to exhibit. It's pretty well documented that the Nazis had this attraction to the occult that led them to, investigate all sorts of odd things. It's really fascinating to me that the Nazi scientists were working on has some superficial similarities to the kind of hypotheses and declarations that Dr. Salvatore Pius has put out, that they use sort of these rotating cylinders filled with a form of mercury. And of course, that's what Vittkowski says that the Nazi Bell program was doing. that we're producing these uh these levitation effects

I'm here with the esteemed Kurt McConnell uh I'm so excited to have you because I think you are as close to the action as anybody when it comes to the civilian representative world you were on the Senate Armed Services Committee and you have spoken to uh first-hand witnesses and a lot of people where that probably give you confidence that the whole UFO thing is very real where people on the outside you know just don't have kind of the same data points and so I'm really just honored to speak to you now and you did that for multiple decades and uh you know I think it came about your understanding of the UAP issue kind of very very honestly and organically

and so yeah it's an honor to have you thank you well I very much appreciate it Jesse um I would say that you're exactly right. When I first started into this, you know, looking at this phenomenon, it was shortly after Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal's seminal New York Times article in late 2017. And that's a starting place for many people who prior to that were not paying any attention to the UFO, UAP phenomenon. And that was true for me and for several of my colleagues on the Senate committee staffs, both the Armed Services Committee and the Intelligence Committee.

That started us down those road, yeah. And so you're, you know, attached to Senator Jack Reed. Is that right? I was. I was. I've retired. I retired about a year, almost exactly a year ago. But you have this kind of conventional career in politics, right? And then, like, what, how do you get into UFOs, I guess is what I'm trying to ask? Well, as I say, it was that New York Times piece where they had some very specific and what you would say, actionable information in there about specific events that were ongoing at the time, some like the Nimitz case from 2004, which was historical.

They reported on the, on the OSAP ATIP program and so forth. So we had strings to pull, and that's what we started to do. And, you know, just sort of following what we thought was reasonable evidence, we've been doing it ever since. So 2017, Leslie Kane, New York Times journalist, writes this kind of bombshell article. We've now found out that, you know, Chris Melon, Lou Elizondo had a big part in the article. they came to her with these three videos that formerly were not acknowledged to be real by the Pentagon Office of Naval Intelligence. And, you know, it was the Tic Tac, the Go Fast, and the Gimble video. This all comes out along with the revelation that Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader on the Democratic side and representative in Nevada, a senator from Nevada, had funded $22 million, along with, I think, Daniel Inouye, and,

Ted Stevens of Alaska to actually study UFOs in an official context. And so it's this kind of bombshell article. And what happens next for you? So you read the article, you say, oh, maybe there's something here. And then what happens? Well, I can't recall the, you know, specific one step at a time. But generally speaking, we, I had known Chris Mellon actually since the late 1980s when I first started and working in the Senate. He was a staffer for, at the time, Senator Bill Cohen from Maine on the Senate Intelligence Committee. So I'd known Chris forever. I saw his name associated with this, and it was easy to reconnect with Chris, and we met Lou, and we met Dr. Putoff and Dr. Davis and we met the other folks who had been working on the ranch in Utah.

And we met Brandon Fugel. Skinwalker Ranch. Skinwalker Ranch. We interviewed Navy pilots, a succession of them. We also found Dave Fraver and Alex Dietrich, who had been pilots in the Ticktack episode back in 2004. before we met with people from the Undersecretary Defense for Intelligence and the Navy and so on. So we were covering a lot of ground in a relatively short order. And there was a lot of interest on the part of members at the time in understanding what the Navy was experiencing off the east coast of the United States.

Now there is a big gap between, okay, we had, you know, an anomalous citing at Nimitz in 2004. We studied this stuff on the order of $22 million at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012. And, you know, the government has some knowledge of this stuff. There's a big gap between that and the David Grush claims that probably, you know, and this is me kind of extrapolating, but like billions of dollars have been spent on this issue. We have, you know, biologics and non-human-pulsed craft in our possession at various kind of aerospace warehouses. He's offered to give the addresses for the warehouses. So there's a big delta between like, you know, we have this kind of ephemeral interest. And then like we have this systematic study that's been going on for many decades. Do you have conviction in the latter in the kind of the David Grush account? Yes, it was gradual in coming, but, you know, once there was what I would call, you know, staff level and member-level, member-driven investigation, we were beating the bushes and hoping that other sources would come forward. And the folks that we were dealing with already who had obvious and publicizing. experience and expertise, going back to the Ossap A-Tip days that Harry Reid was sponsoring. And this led to other people, you know, coming to Congress and telling their stories, which were, you know, riveting and credible.

These are people with high-level clearances, positions of authority in the intelligence community in the Defense Department, and no reason to be fabricating things. And so, you know, and you start reading and reading and reading about this. There's just, as you know, mountains of information out there, not all of it true. But, you know, it's not all false, that's for sure. And so, yeah, we ended up coming progressively to the conclusion that there's not just smoke here. There's fire. And you're one of the few people, because we've had some conversations offline, you're one of the few people that I think is fairly deep on the nuts and bolts tracing the history of the legacy UFO program.

as well as the science. And so you seem to have conviction that there is kind of off the books and in the black science that, you know, the civilian world doesn't really have access to, which if you were to tell this to the average citizen in the U.S., they'd be shocked. You know, science is supposed to be sort of, you know, open source. Obviously, you have nuclear trade secrets, but nuclear physics is open source. And so if you analogize that with the UAP issue, you know, there are probably UAP trade secrets that, you know, involve national security, but UAP physics, so to speak, should be sort of open source to the extent we understand how any of these things work from, you know, an energy perspective, propulsion perspective.

Do you think we've made progress along those vectors and that that's hidden from the public? Are you still logging around one of those bulky, worn out wallets? You know, I am. Your posture's not great due to that wallet. Are you aware of that? I'm currently now more self-aware of my posture. It might be time for an upgrade. Oh, what do you suggest?

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tentative conclusion is that we have made progress. I can't, you know, I can't prove it. And there's certainly a lot of credible reporting on both sides that the government has not made progress. So I don't want to overstate this. In fact, you know, as you know, we frequently hear the argument in favor of disclosure being that the government has failed to make progress because of the severe levels of secrecy imposed on the program and the decentralized and stovepipe siloed nature of the different activities that are going on, the inability to attract and work with the nations premier scientific minds, the lack of coordination and integration across these silos. You know, it's easy to understand. It's plausible that those factors could have retarded or

inhibited progress in a very significant way. And the idea being that disclosure and bringing this under appropriate congressional and, for that matter, executive branch oversle, and management may significantly improve our ability to understand the physics and to master it. So, yeah, I do personally believe that we know an awful lot more about this than the government has let on. Are there any specific kind of modes of exotic science? like you hear things like an extended version of electrodynamics. So like from classical electrodynamics to extended electrodynamics, you hear things like the zero point has energy and we can tap the zero point. Or, you know, I made a piece about the mid-century inventor Townsend Brown,

which my audience, you know, has heard from me about this guy ad nauseum because I think he made some interesting updates in the world of kind of gravity manipulation. Have you looked into any of those things specifically? Yes, Jesse, I certainly have tried to do that. I've tried to be a genuine student of this issue and have read as much as I could as I could find time. And I've certainly read the biographies of Thomas Townsend Brown. I've tried to read about Nikola Tesla, who I think also with using different terms. But I believe that he discovered what you're referring to as extended electrodynamics, which is the modern term for these non-traditional,

non-so-called herzian transverse electromagnetic waves. And, you know, Tesla certainly believed that he had discovered, I don't know if they should properly be called electromagnetic waves because the electric and magnetic fields are sort of suppressed in these notions of scalar longitudinal waves. But for convenience, I'll just refer to them as that. Tesla certainly, he was dismayed when Hertz came out with his version of electromagnetic waves and said, this is the answer.

That's really interesting. I didn't know that Tesla was dismayed of... He was. At least from what I've read, he actually traveled to Europe. Really? To meet with Hertz, to try to convince him that he was wrong. No way. That's fascinating.

So tell me if I'm getting the history right, I think in 1865, James Clerk Maxwell, British physicist, came up with his kind of equations around electromagnetism. But we hadn't actually detected an electromagnetism. magnetic wave and then Heinrich Hertz I think 1887 ish it's about that about that time and so Tesla would have been very young but alive then and active and and and had already believed that he had accomplished a lot and learned a lot about this phenomenon and so he goes to meet with Hertz yeah because he felt like his electromagnetic models were limited that's right and and that he did not have it right and that you know, Tesla was trying to help him correct his, his beliefs, and by saying, no, look, this, this is a different, I have a different kind of wave here. And, and, you know, I think we call it Tesla waves over the decades. I mean, it's been well over 100 years, what, 140 years now, something like that. Anyway, so I think Tesla, Tesla, after all,

famously believed that he could transmit electricity, wirelessly, and worked very hard on that for a big chunk of his life. And frankly, there's our accounts that suggest, or not suggest, that state that Tesla believed that he was even able to achieve so-called over-unity. You know, he would send out electrical power wirelessly. and he believed that under certain conditions that he would receive more energy than he transmitted. And, you know, to him, this was the ether, you know.

Not exactly the ether of the early and mid-19th century. But nonetheless, as I recall, that's what he thought it was, that he was extracting energy. Today, I think we would say that he believed, at least, that he was extracting energy from the physical vacuum from the zero point energy field. Well, he definitely believed that. And I believe he dedicated a lot of the end of his life towards working towards that end from an engineering perspective. And received funding from J.P. Morgan to work on this stuff at Wardencliffe. And it was all about wireless energy transmission, you know, presumably through the vacuum. So, yeah, it's very fascinating history. Then he dies, I think, in like the 30s or so.

No, I think it was 43. 43. There you go. And he was living at the New Yorker Hotel. I forget the name in the hotel, but. I think it was the New Yorker Hotel. I think he lived in, was it three, two, seven. He had an obsession with three.

And he was right next to Bryant Park, and he was in love with a pigeon at Brian Park. Anyways, he dies. and all of his work gets confiscated by the FBI. Yeah, I don't think all of it did, Jesse. And look, I don't claim or pretend to be a deep student of Nikola Tesla's life. And it's very complex in a lot of different accounts. But, you know, he had, I think, a nephew who was very interested in his papers. The FBI, various accounts, say that, yes, the FBI came in and seized large numbers of his files and classified them.

But there's also, you know, stories about Tesla also shopping some of his work and beliefs with Russian sources or Soviet sources and with the Germans. I think he did do that. And I think he felt, and he sort of regretted it at the end of his life. I hope so. Yeah. Right. But so, because he was Serbian. Yeah, so that's really interesting.

But the two aren't mutually exclusive, right? No, they're not. We could have, you know, confiscated his files. And he also could have shared his work with the Germans and the Soviets as well. That's right. Now, I do want to stress, Jesse, that my science friends in the UAP field, like Dr. Harold Putoff and Eric Davis, I'm sure if they're. watching this, they're very upset with me because I don't think they believe that Tesla nor Thomas

Townsend Brown or others like them, less well known, to be sure, actually achieved the things that we're alluding to. In other words, sort of access to this vast energy in the zero point energy field, in the so-called physical vacuum, they really don't think that that has been achieved, and they doubt that it's possible. And they're scientists and eminent ones, and I am not. I just, like you, read these accounts, and they're very interesting to me.

But Hal Putoff also did a podcast at the National Science Foundation, and I think it was co-sponsored by NASA, where he talks about a model of extensive extended electrodynamics. And he even talks about a specific experiment involving a traditional electromagnetic wave or RF signal. And then you take two Faraday chambers, one to kill the e-field, the electric field, one to kill the magnetic field.

And you can communicate essentially kind of faster than light. And so via these vector and scalar potentials. So, you know, do you think that that has no connection with the Tesla stuff? Or maybe that's what he's saying? Well, look, I'm no scientist. but I do think that this may be an example that you're bringing up of like for lay people. It would be like, you know, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, you know, a distinction without a difference. It's like, okay, yeah, Hal believes in a certain brand of extended electrodynamics, but not this part of it maybe.

Sure. Whereas others believe in, you know, for example, scalar longitudinal waves, Hal and Eric might say, gee, I don't believe that. Whereas other scientists, and in fact, Lee Hively, who is a dominant force and figure in extended electrodynamics would say that they are likely real. Have you met Lee Hively? I have not met Lee Hively. I have certainly met people that work with directly with him. So this guy is known as kind of the godfather of extended electrodynamics, like in the modern context. And I think he's published with a guy, two other guys, Woodside and Lobel.

And he's based in Colorado Springs. I was about to meet up with him once. And then I think he got very nervous or something. And Dory got shut in my face, unfortunately. Yeah. And so, yeah, I was very fascinated to learn more about extended electrodynamics because it's clearly it's this thing that keeps coming up in UFO world. But it, yeah, I don't know. It just, you know, it's unclear how real it is and how it exactly works.

Like you get the sense that limited bits of information are being let out maybe strategically, but that it's, you know, still this somewhat opaque field. Yes. And, you know, there's hints. I know this from other scientists who are involved in the study of this discipline, that, you know, there's possibility that it's not just scalar longitudinal waves that might enable the transmission of wirelessly of electrical power, but that maybe these waves couple into other forms of energy in the physical vacuum, like gravity and anti-gravity.

as just one example. So this is a potential avenue into accessing a, you know, different forms of energy at a huge scale that would potentially provide an explanation for the kind of technology and performance and physics that UAP seem to exhibit. So that's the connection where people are really hunting for how in the world can these objects operate in the way that they do. And this is potentially an explanation for it. So it's appealing. And you've also gone deep on some pretty interesting kind of exotic branches of science that deal with the Nazis as well and the kind of World War II lore. Is that right?

Yeah, you know, once again, at the risk of being ridiculed by some of my scientific collaborators and friends. I've certainly read all about, you know, the Nazi bell program, Igor Witkowski, the Polish journalist has written some books about this. and Joseph Farrell, it's really fascinating to me. And certainly, you know, aspects of what they at least have reported that the Nazi scientists were working on, you know, has some superficial, at least for me as a layman, superficial similarities to the kind of hypotheses and declarations. And, and, um, declarations. that Dr. Salvatore Pius from the Navy has put out, as well as others. So, yeah, I'm interested in that. I think it's incumbent on anybody who really is digging deep into this issue.

To leave these stones unturned is really not a good idea because this world is so strange that we have to have an open mind to lots of possibilities that might seem ridiculous or fantastic. I don't know how ridiculous it is, because you do have Igor Witkowski, who's this Polish journalist,

who's gone fairly deep on this idea. We know this existed, Kamlerstab, you know, Skoda Works, which had two locations in modern-day Poland and modern-day Czechoslovak. You had these underground tunnels. And you have,

you can see a test rig there, and the test rig looks like it would work with some sort of bell-shaped UFO. Yeah. And so I find that, you know, absolutely fascinating. There's a great British journalist named Nick Cook who wrote a book called The Hunt for Zero Point. Yeah. And he actually investigated all of this.

And, you know, he would again say, we know, we know, Calmerstab is real. You know, he's seen the test rig. He's gone underground and stuff and not a ton of evidence there, but there's some cables that are really interesting and intriguing. And then it was rumored that Walter Gerlock, who was, you know, pretty interested in gravity and anti-gravity was working on this from like the physics perspective and then ernest growitz who was the s an s medical officer who studied under was reported to joseph mingola was on this and so this was this idea that this nazi bell would you'd create this high energy torsion field around it it would slow down the inertial reference frame of what's inside the bell

and so say everything inside the bell is moving at one one thousandth of the outside or whatever you spend a year inside this thing you walk out you're a thing you're a thing you're a thousand years in the future. It sounds so fantastical and kind of insane, but from, you know, theoretically from like a general relativity perspective, it actually doesn't break much. And you don't even have to, you know, kind of combat Stephen Hawking's chronological conjecture because you're not talking about backwards time travel. Anyways, it's all super fascinating. But you've uncovered some connections between the Nazis and their interest in the occult and esoteric as to how they might have kind of been clued into the architecture of this de-Glocka bell.

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But, you know, when you talk about things that I've uncovered, it's others have uncovered it. I've just happened to have read about it, but certainly I think it's pretty well documented that the Nazis had this attraction to the occult that led them to investigate all sorts of odd things, mystical things even. And I think it was Witkowski who described their expeditions to the Himalayas in search of these Aryan myths and trying to chase those down. And, of course, one of the interesting Himalayan myths that's pertinent to this issue, or I hope I'm pronouncing this right, if not, I hope experts will forgive me, but the Vimina phenomena. And what's interesting is that there are suggestions in those Vimina traditions that these gods who flew around in these airships, which, by the way, could fly the way UAP do, allegedly, that they used.

sort of these rotating cylinders filled with a form of mercury. And of course that's what Vittkowski says that the Nazi Bell program was doing. It was a red mercury compound in these cylinders, these counter-rotating

cylinders that was producing these levitation effects. So it's a very interesting correlation. Maybe the Nazis were convinced that these Himalayan traditions were on to something there. And, of course, for students of the history of the Cold War, at the tail end of the Cold War, and into the 90s, coming out of the former Soviet Union, were all these stories about this substance called Red Mercury that was alleged to have these amazing properties and that it was being sold on

the black market and so on. And, you know, most of the intelligence community, I think, who studied this, concluded that it was a hoax, that it was fraudulent. But there you have it. You know, there was a black market in red mercury. So this whole thing pops up again in much more modern times. So it's interesting. I like leaving no stone unturn and trying to connect dots and see if there's any basis for it. It's fascinating. You also, we just got breakfast, and you were telling me about some very interesting overlaps

between American investigations into foo fighters. Fu fighters are these seemingly controlled ball lightning kind of plasma orb thingies that allied fighter pilots would often see in Nazi Germans, specifically in Bavaria from 1942 to 1945. You uncovered some connections around American investigation into those, and then what ended up in this sort of UFO cover-up with the Robertson panel of 1952, which created Blue Book?

Well, again, Jesse, I certainly didn't uncover this. But it's out there in the history of the investigations of the foo fighter phenomenon, both in the European theater, as well as in the Far East, in the Pacific Theater. And indeed, you know, you read the accounts of the foo fighter phenomenon, and they read almost exactly like post-World War II and up to the present time

accounts of UAP. So I'm pretty confident that we're dealing with the same phenomenon. And indeed, what's really important about the foo fighter phenomenon is, you know, if you think back on the context, the Allies were paranoid about German innovation and the chance that they were working on some very exotic technologies

that would really, really disadvantage the Allied forces. And when the Foo Fighter phenomenon was becoming noticed in a thing, I think it's perfectly clear that the Allies were intelligence services and operational commanders were really worried, what the hell is this? And does it represent some German secret exotic weapons technology? And it was studied, and I think it was studied pretty carefully. And one of the people that was assigned to conduct that study happened to be Dr. Howard Robertson from Caltech, who seven years after the war was chosen. and I'm sure not coincidentally

to lead up the CIA's infamous Robertson panel. But another historical figure that was involved in the foo fighter investigations with Robertson is the future Nobelist Luis Alvarez, a tremendously accomplished physicist. And the both of them, Alvarez was also on the Robertson panel. Right.

And, of course, the Robertson panel. Robertson panel for any of your viewers and listeners who are not familiar in 1952 after the so-called UFO, I forget what they call it, flyover, flyovers in Washington, D.C. The headlines on the newspapers were, you know, saucers on the White House lawn. Exactly. This big, it was mass sightings in July, specifically July 19th and 20th and 26th and 27th in 1952. That's right. So in the wake of that, the Robertson panel made these recommendations in secret.

One recommendation was that the U.S. government needed to be out debunking the existence or, you know, of any reality about these UFO phenomena. But then their second recommendation, which is not always noted in the accounts of it, is that they, they, they strongly recommended that the government figure out how to detect and track these anomalous UFO types of phenomenon in order, they said, to differentiate between, you know, a real Russian-sov bomber coming over the North Pole versus some UFO, right? So this was a practical matter, as they put it, But nonetheless, it's interesting that they really recommended that the government figure out how to detect and track and differentiate these things from real, tangible fighters and bombers. So, yeah, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that, and this is pertinent to your point, is that we started in World War II, to really think about and worry about UFOs.

We just called them foo fighters, right? And I think that this is an important lesson when contemplating whether the United States government ever took and has ever taken UFOs seriously. You bet your ass they have. Oh, yeah. Well, nobody can dispute that H.P. Roberts who was a Caltech physicist and Luis Walter Alvarez went out there and studied this stuff and then sat on the Robertson panel, which sort of, you know, ended up determining UFO secrecy or the government's orientation towards it, at least public facing with Blue Book for the next two decades. So, and then there's also another, you know, anecdote from that time, 1946 and 7, there were these ghost rockets showing up in Sweden. They looked like these modified V2s. You had over a thousand sightings of these. And so, again, not disputed.

that Eisenhower sent General James Doolittle out to investigate that. And then who knows if this is correlated, but James Doolittle comes back and I believe he becomes the chair of NACA, you know, and, you know, looks into like kind of exotic propulsion modalities in the U.S. after that. And so I do think you have to ask your question. If you're like, you have to ask the question if you're a complete skeptic, you want to write off the whole UFO thing, where did those inquiries go? Because I believe that, you know, we've made progress since then. So, yeah, I think it's the whole thing so fascinating. So let's shift gears a little bit.

Kirk, have you spoken to anybody in a classified setting or not who has seen craft firsthand? You mean seen recovered crash, recovered, yeah. A craft and or stuff that we may have built? Yeah. Yes. These are people who found their way one way or another to us on Capitol Hill and met with senators and who made precisely those kinds of claims. When you say stuff that we could have built, you don't mean a B2 or F117 or F-35 going down, right? No, the allegations are that we have reverse engineered. We have reverse engineered something that at least has some of the capabilities that that UFOs and UAP have reportedly displayed.

At that point, that's such a bold claim. How do you follow up and try to get like a smoking gun that this is not of human origin? And that this isn't some super sophisticated tech protection program that's trying to sigh up our civilian government, which again, maybe prima facie absurd, but like extraordinary claims do you require extraordinary evidence? I'm not fond of that assertion, by the way. I agree. Well, I think in the UFO stuff, we have an abundance of evidence and we need extraordinary investigation. And we're just sort of like mentally like, you know, not in the right.

Our priors don't allow us to actually accept that this is real and we don't do the proper investigating. But anyways. Well, Jesse, I would say, first of all, that your, you know, your question is, how do you, how do, how does one go about, you know, proving this? Yeah. And, and I will, I will take that with respect to my personal situation as a, as a staff member for a committee in Congress, that we had very limited ability to determine the, the, the veracity of these of these reports. First of all, the folks who, who were, you know, telling this, making these claims,

were not willing to be, to have to come out in public for the most part. Dave Grush is an exception, but Dave doesn't claim absolute direct, you know, firsthand, firsthand knowledge. So, you know, people did not want to, they were, afraid to come forward publicly. But in addition, you know, if they, the more specifics they gave you, the more they were worried about, about them being identified by the, by, you know, the security services being able to tell, well, Congress is saying that somebody told them this. Well, there's a small number of people that knew that, right? So, so, so. So, so.

it's not that we had so much specific actionable information that we were able to act on. But more fundamentally, you know, for Congress to undertake the kind of investigation that would be necessary to pry through the kinds of security structures that would be necessary. to pry through the kinds of security structures that have allegedly been built around this topic, you know, that's a big lift for elected members of Congress. Like, you know, investigations, you know, like the, you know, Church Pike Post-Watergate, investigations or Iran-Contra. These members have to be pretty confident that there are really

important, no-kitting reality behind the issues, right? So you kick off a no-holds-barred investigation. You better be damn sure that there's a prize there or, you know, something. that's for sure going to be discovered and revealed. And I don't think that Congress feels that collectively that they're at that point yet. I think this is why you consistently hear the appeal for more people with direct sources to come forward, you know, ideally in public, but at least in private, come to Congress and tell your stories.

Do these people, are you sussing them out? Do they seem genuinely afraid for their lives? Do they seem like these kind of slick operators where it's like they could pull the wool over your eyes? Or like, how do they pattern match? Because I imagine, even for your own thing, you're curious human being, you have to be thinking,

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Go to qualialife.com slash jessey for up to 50% off and use code Jesse at checkout for Nade. additional 15% off. For your convenience, Qualia CentaLytic is also available at select GNC locations near you. That's QA-L-I-A-L-A-L-A-L-Fyf dot com slash Jesse for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring today's episode. Well, I would say, Jesse, that my clear sense is that I and most, if not all of the colleagues, staff colleagues who were involved, and certainly some of the key senators who were involved found these individuals to be credible and, you know, sane.

And to your question about, did they, were they believable when they would say, when they would express concerns for their own safety and that of their families and of their careers, I would say that's very definitely was credible. I mean, what I mean by that is we believed them that they felt that way. And it was almost in some cases palpable. I can recall an instance where one source when initiating, you know, an explanation of what they knew, of what they knew, was visibly shaking. I mean, physically so stressed about it. So, yeah, I think, I don't think that these folks are making it up. they feel that there's

their grave risks and you know and these are people that have not gone public they're not the whistleblowers the public knows well that's that's right I don't want to give the wrong impression

it's not like there's hordes of these people or dozens even but there's a handful yep and and and they are very concerned they don't feel safe to come out fully Yes, that's right. It's like they have the sort of the fear of God in them about the consequences.

Are you aware of people who have died or faced retribution around coming out? Well, I don't think you need to look any further than the case of Dave Grasch. I mean, he's not even a, you know, what you'd call it firsthand. witness or source. But, you know, Dave, Dave had a hard go of it. And some of the things that have happened to him are not even in the public domain. Yeah. I believe. And so, yeah, I think there's real, there's real risk. I mean, this is not, to come out is almost clearly not career enhancing. No. To be sarcastic. about it.

And I would say, look, you know, Lou Elizando is, you know, had to go find another career path, you know, as has Dave. I think Lou's also talked about being on a hit list. Yeah, they have, they have, they have, they believe that they, that that has happened. So, so, so I can't, I can't positively assert that,

that these things are true, but neither can I, can I dismiss him. Have you spoken to anybody who claims to have seen biologics? Let me think about that one. If I personally know people, I think the answer to that is no. I don't think that I personally know

someone who has seen, who claims to have seen. biologic. How in this, how in your assessment is the program run? I think what I struggle with personally, as do a lot of other people, is, is like there's clearly no clear central chain of command, or if there is, it's extremely well hidden. And it seems like these sort of middle management cutouts in various organizations where like leadership in those specific organizations are half aware that these things even exist and money is being funneled from other kind of private, you know, interests or whatever. The whole thing seems insane. Like I've,

personally heard of extremely high-ranking members of government where they're not, you know, clued in, they're not brief to this stuff. And then their deputies are. And you hear something like that. And you're like, how does that even work? Like, what, that makes no sense on some level. maybe it does in this sort of, you know, super swampy, you know, bureaucratic mess that is Washington. But yeah, how do you make sense of it? Jesse, the short answer is I can't make sense of it. I, what the way you've characterized what is out there in terms of what people have said, you know, confidentially and otherwise is right.

and I think based upon the amount of information that I have, I don't think it's possible to actually determine with confidence what the management structure, if one exists, what it looks like, does it make any sense at all? Is it sort of this crazy spaghetti that, that you've kind of described, and how could that possibly be true? I think this is the answers to this conundrum will have to await, you know, some genuine disclosure. Trump has talked a lot about other disclosures a la Jeffrey Epstein, JFK, 9-11, things of that nature.

you have the Department of Government Efficiency sort of running, you know, roughshod through a lot of these sort of bloated, you know, agencies. Do you think we have any disclosures on the UAP front? And maybe even, you know, beyond that, do we get disclosures about, like, is any of Tesla's work still, you know, classified?

Is I'm pretty sure Thomas Townsend Brown's work is still classified by the Navy? So do we get scientific disclosures or disclosures around UAP, UFO? I really have no idea. Of course, there's been a lot of observers of the UAP issue who have taken heart from the public positions of a decent number of advisors and now cabinet members and even, you know, the National Security Advisor, saying positive things about UAP transparency. And there was a lot of optimism that we will see a new level of disclosure and transparency from this administration. So far, I don't think we've seen, you know, significant indications that that's going to happen. frankly, I think the first, you know, official act that the Trump administration took in dismissing what was going on up in New Jersey, for example, that this was an FAA regulated set of events. It does not bode well. And furthermore, I think that there's some, you know, developing disappointment that whenever, The Trump administration lists its objectives with regard to revealing, you know, really significant classified information about the JFK assassination, the RFK assassination, Martin Luther King, and Jeffrey Epstein, and so on.

you know, they list all those, and then it sometimes seems like the UFO issue is either mentioned sort of in passing at the end or not mentioned at all. So we'll have to obviously wait and see what happens. But I think that there's reasons to be concerned that we might not get the disclosure that people had hoped for. How big was the Senate Armed Service? Committees when you were on it? How many people? You mean how many members? Roughly two dozen. Two dozen. A little more. I think they've actually expanded in this current session, again, up to 27 members.

Okay. So, yeah, what percentage of those 24 to 27 members believe that UFOs are real and being systematically looked into in a government context? Jesse, I could not possibly speculate on that. And, you know, if I did know, it's not something that I would want to reveal. This is... Were you a total lone wolf, I guess is what I'm trying to say? Were you completely isolated in believing this? No. There were certainly some members who, by their actions, clearly conveyed that they were, interested in this topic and believed that there was, you know, a reason to push the government to reveal more of what they believe the government knows about this topic. You know, is every member of the Senate Armed Services Committee or the Senate Intelligence Committee, you know, a believer? I would say

I really have no idea. Was there interest in this? Yeah. And I think there's, you know, there's sort of gradations here because, you know, they're all concerned. Everyone in national security is concerned about these overflights of sensitive facilities. What's really hard to figure out is how much of that. that is like, you know, hobby shop drones, how much of that is potentially, you know, some adversary, but still far from anomalous, you know, sort of conventional types of drone technologies,

versus what is perhaps anomalous, genuinely, and what might be exotic technology of an adversary or or something that's genuinely non-human intelligence and so forth. I think everyone is interested in the security of our sensitive facilities and want the government to figure out what the hell's going on at places like Langley Air Force Base and our air bases in the U.K. And over sensitive facilities in New Jersey or wherever they may be. You hear things reportedly from David Grush, like Dick Cheney was a gatekeeper for the legacy UFO efforts. I mean, on the one hand, it would kind of make sense because he seems to have been, you know, if there was anybody who was kind of running, you know, the show behind George W. Bush, he was probably Dick Cheney.

And so that kind of comports with our understanding of this whole issue of like, you know, it's almost like Lord of the Rings if you have the ring or something, you know, that confers some sort of weird. power. And then on the other hand, it's just so absurd. I mean, Dick Cheney is very old, but he's still alive. And he's a very high profile person. So, like, it's a part of me is just like, can we just ask the guy? Like, do you, do you think that Dick Cheney had any involvement with UFOs? Well, there's a difference here between what I think, you know, there's evidence for and what I personally kind of believe. What I would say is that we've seen. We've seen, you know, that we've certainly heard the same accounts that, that you're referring to, that, and the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and that, and that, um, and that, um, and that, and that he passed on what he knew about that, he knew about that to his son, to his son, George W.

And that, and it is, it is reported by some that the George W. Bush administration did, you know, really take a more hands-on approach to the UFO, UAP issue. And it has been reported by some that, yes, Dick Cheney as vice president was the, was sort of in charge of that. and that his national security staff and the National Security Council staff were involved. How many of them, I've never heard a report claiming, you know, claiming any knowledge about how deep or extensive the staff was involved in that. But certainly we've heard those reports, yeah. Looking to see what's happening around your home?

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And that they studied the matter. They let out a contract. And it was, you know, there was an assessment done. and then it was debated, and the conclusion that was reached was that, no, the time was not right yet. It would be still catastrophic. Yeah, well, catastrophic, you know, there would be, the consequences, the negative consequences would outweigh the benefits. Let's put it that way at a minimum. And this was, this story was reported to Sean Kirkpatrick. Arrow, and we subsequently heard from Sean directly that he had looked into this or had somebody look into it, and that indeed there had been a contract for such a study, and the basis of the

study was suppose the United States government had in its possession, and I forget the number, know, six or 12 recovered extraterrestrial craft, and should the United States government disclose this fact? Okay. What was said to us from Sean Kirkpatrick is that there was such a study, but it was purely an academic exercise that allegedly there was just, you know, an entity in the Defense Department, I think it was probably the Office of Net Assessment, which is the futuristic element within the department that is supposed to look at strange, what-if kinds of scenarios, that they had decided to, just for the heck of it, postulate. What if we had a bunch of crashed UFOs, should we reveal it or not? I think that kind of strange credulity.

that somebody... Why would you ever simulate something that if you're convinced isn't real? It's been so absurd. In the hypothetical scenario that we had unicorns in our possession, we have to figure out a plant. I mean, that's crazy.

Also, Hal Putoff is on record saying he consulted for this net assessment. National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley was involved and that they, you know, came to the conclusion that you mentioned, which is that the, you know, costs outweighed the benefits as far as disclosure went.

So one of them is lying. And I don't think it's Hal Putoff. Yeah, I think Hal is a pretty straight shooter. And that's why when you asked the question, I said personally, I tend to believe that this took place the way it has been characterized by Hal. Yeah. And so, yeah, so Kirkpatrick, you know, is this very interesting character where you, I've heard all these stories of people who've had experiences in the government. Like, you have this great book by Robert. Hastings called UFOs and nukes where you have, you know, over 160 ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases, experiencing tick, tack, saucers, all sorts of things, showing up at, you know, nuclear sites, tampering with the comms, shutting down missile silos. In certain cases, the employees board crafts and get, you know, they wake up miles away.

It's fascinating stuff. And he and many of the witnesses say that, you know, testimonies to Kirkpatrick, the guy not taking notes. He's not, he's literally just listening to this, these sacred, very important stories that are dear and, that are very personal to these people that, you know, profound. And then sort of there's just no, there's never any follow up. Yeah. And so I guess my question is, we know that there is a longstanding tradition and government of obfuscation around the UFO topic. You had Edward Condon was, you know, created the Condon Committee. And all of the people on the Condon Committee were like, this is a bad faith effort. And we didn't actually.

actually, you know, like anything that even made it into study was like already ruled out as like a, you know, hoax or a bad case. You have letters now between Condon and Air Force Colonel Robert Hippler, where Hippler is saying, we want this to be shown as a waste of money and Condon kind of implicitly complying with that. Absolutely. I don't think implicitly. I think explicitly. And Condon also was a long time associate of Robert Oppenheimer's and goes way back when it comes to atomic secrecy. In fact, if you believe David Grush, which I do, the Atomic Energy Commission, which created UFO secrecy in 1954, the precursor to that was the McMahon Secrecy Act of 46, which Condon wrote. So the person writing UFO secrecy is then going on to debunk it.

So there's a whole thing so ridiculous. Is Kirkpatrick a modern version of that? Well, look, I don't like to cast dispersions unnecessarily for sure. And I've known Sean actually for 20 years, and I had worked with him a good bit. Wow, you've known him for 20 years. I have known Sean for a long time. I knew him from when he was a program manager at the National Reconnaissance Office.

And subsequently, we stayed in touch through his career progression within the Defense Intelligence community and principally DIA. And, yeah, you know, in fact, when we first started on the Senate Armed Services Committee and Senate Intelligence Committee to investigate this matter after the New York Times article in 2017, I involved Sean in our work. I invited him with some regularity to sit in on our interviews of Navy pilots and, and, and, you know, some of the scientific figures. I mean, I think there was a picture posted online,

perhaps by Brandon Fugel, the owner of Skinwalker Ranch, of Fugel's team briefing in an Armed Services Committee hearing room. And there's a picture of Sean sitting next to us. Well, I had invited Sean to that meeting. So, but, you know, I do feel that, that Sean ended up taking a very traditional DoD line on the UAP issue? Do you think that was intellectually genuine or disingenuous? Look, I don't know.

I personally feel that there was a point at the beginning of his service as the director of Arrow that Sean was committed to, you know, calling it as he saw it. I do feel like there might have been then some change. And, you know, there's speculation that he was read into the legacy program and told, you know, in no uncertain terms that, you know, you need to sustain the sort of the party line that's been in existence for so long. But look, I have no idea

that actually happened. Didn't he work at Oak Ridge National Labs too? Well, let's see. Sean, I don't know before he took the Arrow job what association, if any, he had with Oak Ridge.

But he did start working with Oak Ridge. You know, he created, He created an advisory group. I can't remember what it was called officially, but I think that group still exists. And the contract for the formation of that group to advise him at Arrow,

the contract was let through Oak Ridge. And then when Sean retired from the government, he is working with and for Oak Ridge under contract now. That's, yeah. Seems like a potential conflict of interest. If you believe that UFO secrecy has anything to do with atomic secrecy, which I'm assuming you do. I believe that. Yeah.

That seems like an issue, possibly, that there's financial outflows from the organization that you're supposed to be investigating. Yeah. Conflicts of interest or allegations are easy to make, but not so easy to sort out. But it is, it is certainly worth taking note of if nothing else. I just don't see, you know, I've spoken to a lot of the same people as him. And, like, these people are good people. They're honest. Like, this guy, Mario Woods, 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota.

Maybe you are familiar with his case. I don't think I am. Well, he's, you know, a lot of these guys, he was, you know, woke up nine miles away. Yeah. Near Lake Newell. This is in Robert Hastings book. Robert Hastings book. And, you know, he had this just profound experience.

And then he maintained his cue clearance for 20 years. years after that. And if you think this guy is having an anomalous incident that you've never heard about before, why wouldn't you strip him of his cue clearance if you hadn't had heard it a million times? Why wouldn't you strip him of his cue clearance if you've, you know, this is just a one-of-one case and the guy's claiming something that ostensibly seems crazy. And then he describes this whole protocol of them checking his teeth and doing medical stuff. And it's like, it was as if they had seen this a million times before. Yeah. And you have to think of a hundred of these people, which is a large number, have come out in the last 70 years. It's probably in the

thousands as far as people who have experienced this, because you're talking about a culture of, you know, insane secrecy, talking about Cold War secrecy era stuff. And then people with cue clearances who don't get into this line of work because they're history on it. And so you, I don't know, you talk to a lot of these guys, Bob Jacobs, you know, many of the others. And they're just not liars. And if you're telling me that the guy, you know, Kirkpatrick's sitting across from them, he's not taking notes, you know, and then he kind of dismisses them and then dismisses the whole thing publicly out of hand. Either I'm crazy and my whole, the whole computer going on in my brain is malfunctioning and like, you know, I need to be taken off air.

Or like, there's something weird going on there. I don't disagree at all. And with regard to the notes part, you know, first of all, it was objectionable to me personally that the Arrow Office didn't like videotape and record, at least record, everything that was said. But they didn't operate that way. My understanding is they did take notes. I'm not saying that Sean Kirkpatrick himself took notes, but my understanding was that at least in all the episodes that I've heard about, the interviews that I've heard about, there was somebody at least taking notes.

But, you know, that seems insufficient to me. You need to hear, you know, to record verbatim what was said. Furthermore, as you noted, these things would then just go into a black hole, the record of these interviews. I mean, I think Hal Putoff and Eric Davis to this day have never been shown the notes from their meetings with Arrow for them to review and say, yes, this is accurate, this is what I said, and this is what happened. and this is what happened. It's just, they never heard from him again. And in certain cases, you know, Hastings has mentioned that the evidence gets erased or something.

So they'll say, you've heard that too. I have heard this. It's like the tapes are here of this UFO thing, and then the tapes are gone right after they tell them that. Oh, yeah. I thought you meant like their interview, the interview notes or, you know, what was provided to Arrow. No, I hear that the primary material. at certain cases. They'll say the location and then there's a weird break-in or something after.

Well, I don't know, but I know there was an episode like this with Lou Elizondo where he told them a particular location, an office, a safe, a safe drawer, and only to be told that when they opened it up, there was nothing there. Yep. So these are worrisome, were some reports for sure. So, but, Jesse, you know, you, you, you mentioned Robert Hastings and all of these events that happened at nuclear weapons sites. You know, this is, this is so important to, to this question about, does the government take this matter seriously? And again, you know, we started out talking about the foo fighter experience in World War II. But, you know, after the war, as soon as, as soon as the, you know, the United States started building substantial nuclear forces and facilities, you know, there's just this constant visitation and monitoring by, at the least, by UAP. When you get into the 1960s, there are these amazing events that happen.

You mentioned Robert Jacobs, the Big Sur event in 1964. But, you know, Dr. Harold Momgren has alerted the world, as it were, to events that took place in 1962. In fact, some of them at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis. This has been documented by, I think, you as well as Jeff Crookshank from Australia and certainly a lot of Reddit users. You know, Harold Momgren, before he passed away, and what a tragic loss, I might add. He was such an incredible, you know, statesman, diplomat, defense thinker. economist and so forth. But, you know, going back to 1962, he was the youngest of McNamara's wiz kids. He was involved in the day-to-day deliberations about what to do when the Cuban missile

crisis happened. After the Cuban missile crisis was over, he was commissioned by McNamara to lead a study of the potential for missile defenses to contribute to presidential options when a future Cuban missile crisis might take place. And as no sooner had Harold Momgren been given that assignment, he was contacted by a famous CIA officer Richard Bissell. Number two in the CIA, deputy director. That's right. and Bissell met with Maumgren and told him, he said, look, you've been given this assignment to develop missile defense options and to, you know, explore the potential for missile defenses to contribute to deterrence. And you need to know that in the test that happened in October 26, 1962, at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, there was a test of a special.

warhead designed to produce enhanced x-ray output called the xW 51 x1 or something like that. It was amazing. Momgren at 89 years old rattled off the name of that warhead from memory. And that's, he's a genius. He is. And it was. Okay. So taking you back specifically to that event,

We set off that warhead. It was the Blue Gild Triple Prime atmospheric test, and it was designed to destroy a dummy reentry vehicle with this sizable warhead using enhanced x-rays. And the x-rays would have caused this chain of events and the target, where you would get this spolation from inside the inside layers of the re-entry vehicle, and it would tear apart the re-entry vehicle.

So this was the third attempt, as I recall, maybe even the fourth, to test this device in the atmosphere. And it was successful. It exploded as planned. And there were two RC-135 Cobra ball airplanes up, taking video of this.

One, I think, representing Los Alamos, one representing Lawrence Livermore, lab and they each of those aircraft filmed this fireball and what happened to the test RV. And as soon as that fireball erupts, you see this object come tumbling out of the fireball heading for the Pacific Ocean. Yeah, this video is available. It's open source. And you see it's really crazy because Lawrence Livermore, you see the object tumbling out.

and then Los Alamos, you see a white, white triangle superimposing the video. I thought it was the other way around. Oh, maybe I'm wrong. I thought it was Livermore's- That covered up the object. Interesting. And it was Los Alamos. And I think the Warhead was a Los Alamos design.

Okay. Anyway, the trivia. No, no, no, that's good correction. But, but yeah, so you actually see it, this object clearly in the Los Alamos video. And what, what, what, uh, what, um, Momgren reported that he'd been told directly by Bissell is that we downed a UFO that was monitoring, closely monitoring that test, and it tumbled into the ocean and that the Navy picked it up. So you mentioned that the video of this test has been declassified and was released.

I think it was back in the late 90s. And also released, or declassified and released, were the ship logs. because in tests like that, and this was out near Johnston Aetal, the Navy would have a contingent of ships that would help to collect the debris and the sensors that had been deployed to watch the test. Okay, they would fall into the ocean, and they would be picked up. And part of the information in those ships logs is that they picked up some highly radioactive debris. one was described as a black sphere, another was described as a green tube that were not part of the instrument package that they were supposed to pick up. These were anomalous items floating in the water that they tested them with radioactive detectors, and they were highly radioactive, meaning they had been very close to the fireball, and they retrieved those.

And then there's also a log that says the Navy also conducted a salvage operation. So this lines up perfectly with what Momgren was told by Richard Bissell. I think Maumgren even more than that was in charge of costing for these missile defense systems. So he was in charge of that. And I think he wanted to, he was, like, frustrated at not being sort of read in because he had blanket queue clearances. And so he then, as a result of that, goes in visits. Lawrence Geis or geese, who's Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather and the Albuquerque director of

the Atomic Energy Commission because the materials get taken from the Marshall Islands, Johnson O'Toole, to Sandia National Laboratories. And so Malmgram actually investigates this on behalf of the Kennedy administration. So the whole thing is so fascinating. And then I think a month later, Kennedy goes and visits Les Alamos, which, you know, I don't know if that's a Coincidence. Actually, Kennedy, this has been documented by Jeff Krukshank. He's amazing research. He's listed the attendees on that trip. And it was Kennedy and Johnson and the National Security Advisor, I think. George McBundee. It was McBundee. But then also, the famous general, Curtis LeMay, was part of that trip. And Curtis LeMay, of course, I think.

think at the time was the commander of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. So at any event, there was an interesting, a very interesting delegation soon after the Cuban missile crisis does go on this tour of various nuclear installations and facilities out west. Momgren also made a trip during which, as you say, I think, he met with Lawrence Geese or guys, however you pronounce it, and others. So here's the other interesting thing, though. Five weeks before that Blue Guil triple prime test, there was another test. This one was of a new reentry vehicle designed by a company. that's now defunct or been absorbed many times over called Avco. And Avco had built a new

reentry vehicle called the Mark 4. And this too has all been declassified, where in the test of that new RV, it is released, you know, close to the atmosphere. And you see it traveling at very high speed and starting to reenter the atmosphere. And all of a sudden behind it, you see this bright white light that catches up to the RV over a fairly significant distance. It catches up to the RV and accompanies it further in its trajectory. And in the official report made to the Defense Department about this test, it says right in there, objects of unknown origin and identity were tracking or pacing. I forget the exact words that were used. This, the Mark 4th. reentry vehicle. So this is a UFO. This is a UFO that is closely flying and catching up to a

warhead that's going, I don't know, 10,000 miles an hour. What test was this? What was this called? You know, Jesse, I don't remember the name of the test, but it's easily found. It's in, it was on September 19th, 1962. Wow. And you see the records. Oh, sure. The video is online. The video, and you see it, you see an UFO catching up? Yes, you see it. I mean, you don't see any details, but you see this white object, this luminous object, come roaring up chasing the reentry vehicle. That's wild.

Can you send that to me? Sure, yeah, yeah. We'll link that for people. So, and it was reported in the official reports. Unbelievable. And so then let's fast forward, like two years. and approximately a little 18 months. And Robert Jacobs has an assignment out in Big Sur, California,

to film this test of an ICBM launched from Vandenberg, an Atlas, and it's got a dummy warhead on it. And according to Robert Jacobs and his commanding officer, Major Mansman, I mean, this is a well-known story. this reentry vehicle is moving at like, I forget the number, 9,000 to 12,000 miles an hour. And you see this, according to the witnesses of this video, that you see a UFO, and it is saucer-shaped, and it starts flying around the re-entry vehicle and shooting some beams at it, and that it disabled this test re-entry view. And then CIA suits show up and kind of confiscate the video.

And then basically Jacobs is erased from the government. You know, they say that he never worked at the government. Yeah. And, yeah, the whole thing's kind of crazy. And then he gets all these threats. His mail blocks blows up. Eventually, Florence Mansman, his superior, has to admit that actually Bob Jacobs did work, in fact, for Vandenberg and managed, you know, I think 130 people or something. Yes.

His team was quite large. So now he's being sort of vindicated. But yeah, it's really wild what he had to sort of go through. And Lou Al-Zondo says that he has seen the video. That's correct. Lou says that he had a copy of that video. And he says he has backups of the video. And so I would, Lou, if you're watching this, please release that video.

Just release the video. I mean, that video would be so effective and powerful. Do you think it would be like the sources and methods thing that would endanger our? Because, I mean, you're talking about 1964. for, you know, technology. I think that would just be a net positive for humanity and not reveal anything as far as national security trade secrets. There is an account that contests Robert Jacobs' account

by a man with some very good credentials who claims that Jacobs was confused about which date of this test and so on and so forth. It's a long, complicated story. But, you know, the Defense Department Arrow has taken the position that Jacobs was wrong in what he claims to have seen. But my point is, like, if you look back at what happened in 1962 as documented by Harold Momgren and others, and we have the video evidence, that lends a lot of credibility to Robert. Jacob's story. Oh, yeah. Because it's the same phenomena. It's the same phenomena.

I mean, one you could say is sending x-rays out in a way that actually, if you have a vehicle referencing the magnetosphere of the earth, a lot of people think that's how UFOs might fly, just like, you know, avian cryptocromes, like these birds

that have the CRY4 protein, they use electron spin to sense where the earth is, and that helps them navigate home. So they use kind of quantum biology, quantum sensing to actually navigate that theoretically is how, you know, the UFOs might sense. And so if you're messing with the local magnetosphere, you could see these things sort of crashing, whereas I think the dummy blast, the nuclear dummy blast of, you know, 1964 with Bob Jacobs, that points a little more towards this sort of three-body problem, like,

you know, the UFOs are sort of, you know, worried about like, you know, the typical. You know, of the spear of our advancements in weaponry, they're worried about us disturbing, you know, our bias fear and taking ourselves out. Either way, very similar. It's very similar phenomena. And the point is, is that it appears, like, routinely, UAP, we're flying around watching our ICBM tests and our nuclear warhead tests in the atmosphere.

Well, there's so much documentation of that. If you just, if anybody actually reads Robert Hastings' book, which is, I feel like that half the reason my show exists is to just tell people to read that book. Because that's like the most, you know, it's just so canonical and detailed and document. You have these, I don't know, I'm a big fan of Joe Rogan, but it's like, sometimes I'm like, dude, just read that book and you'll, like, be a little less confused because at least you can start with a foundation. You're not having to ping off of all these disparate kind of, you know, contemporary witnesses.

Just read that book. Like, I don't know, he's like, doesn't have time. He's very busy. but you know or tulsi or any of these people in power like just read that but that book is so because it helps you start with a baseline of like you know like that would be a huge that would be like the bottom of the jenga block as far as my like intellectual foundation of this so if you were to pull that it would be you know i would have to admit it would really shake my foundation on this whole this whole topic But it's just so solid.

It's so meticulously written. And, you know, I think if you actually read it and you talk to Hastings, you know, who I've become friends with, it's hard to deny. It is. Well, Jesse, one final thing on this point is that, I mean, imagine this. We resumed atmospheric testing in 1962 after the Soviets violated the unofficial moratorium on atmospheric moratorium on atmospheric. nuclear tests. So we resume testing. We're going through this very, very tense, obviously, this crisis with the Soviet Union over missiles in Cuba. And during this, during, at the height of this, this UFO is downed by by a nuclear warhead. Okay. And, and on September 19th,

you have this UFO tracking, catching up with a warhead, the Avco warhead, going, 10,000, 12,000 miles an hour. Two years later, you have it, the same thing happened with Robert Jacobs event in California. Do you, can you imagine the Defense Department just saying, oh, well, these UFOs are tracking our shit. Yeah.

And, but we're not concerned about that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's inconceivable. Inconceivable. They would have been, they would have been crapping in their pants. Of course, yeah. And there's nothing else that could, I mean, do you think that,

The Soviets at that time had an ability across the world to have a spaceship that could accelerate faster than an incoming RV and catch up to it and monitor it. No. And in the case of Bob Salas, you know, Malmstrom, 1967, literally shut down our missile solid. Yes. If you can shut down our ICBMs, I mean, that is-game set match. You win the war.

That is the scariest thing that you can imagine for the National Command Authority. No, the Soviets would have won the war. If you had that ability to do that in a repeatable, predictable way technologically, that would be it. So anyone who thinks that the United States government wouldn't have been paying the closest possible attention to the UFO phenomena all these years, it's nuts. It's inconceivable to me. I fully agree with you. On that note, how do we get better whistleblower protections? You know, in 2020-3 time frame, we had this Gallagher amendment to the National Defense Authorization, Howard, specifically to the Schumer Amendment, and, you know, the UAP disclosure, you know, initiative as part of the yearly defense budget.

And everybody thought after we got the Gallagher Amendment, you know, you'd have, you know, this sort of breaking down the dam of people coming out and speaking about the UFO issue. why do you think that hasn't been effective and do you think we end up with stronger whistleblower protection so people can actually come out? Well, this too is a kind of catch-22. You know, we need whistleblowers, you know, more sources with direct involvement to come forward. I hear this constantly from folks on the hill,

both before I retired and since. And yet whistleblowers don't want to come forward because they're afraid of retribution and retaliation. And so then you say, well, we need better whistleblower protections. But to get whistleblower protections, you have to convince people in Congress who are worried about what is the right balance of whistleblower protections versus, you know, good order and discipline and having people

following people follow orders and stay in their place in the bureaucracy and so on. The whole degree of general whistleblower protections is complex. I don't pretend to understand the politics of it, but I know enough to know that it is a complicated issue. And if you come forward and say, I need special protections for a special limited class of people, then everyone else who wants to protect whistleblowers says, why should I give you special protections for one small class of people? We need to expand protections for everybody. And then, but then you have those who are dubious about enhanced whistleblower protections saying, well, we're not going to do that.

So do you have a solution to this? Well, a solution is a little bit hard to come by, but I think that we just have to hope for one of two things. Either the executive branch decides it's going to pursue disclosure or, B, we get more people to gird their loins and decide that it's just something that has to be done. they don't have to go public. The problem with that is it ends up in this liminal space.

It does. You're sort of repeating their account and you have to do it at really high level. Like, I'm not convinced if somebody went on one of these whistleblowers, just one on Rogan, like tomorrow, and just talked about what they know and they really tried to protect the, you know, national trade secret side of this, but just was it was really clear that, you know, this sort of Bob Lazare. 2.0, but without the details that, you know, make it, you know, easy to sort of, you know, detract from, from the testimony. I think that would, A, get tons and tons of attention. And B, you'd have sort of this, like, people's champion immunity. And you'd have a president in Trump and his whole cabinet that has promised, you know, transparency. Maybe they don't quite understand the UFO issue. Maybe it's not a priority. But seeing that person after, you know, going so,

being so public, getting persecuted, I don't know. I think that's, that feels like, yeah, that would be a very tall order. Jesse, I'm with you. I think that going public can really bring some protections for you. Now, you know, Dave Grush might say, you know, what about me? Because they went after him, even when he went public as a result of him going public. So I get it. It's a complex calculation.

I think he felt calculation. I think he feels safe for post going. public than pre the the scariest period is when they they probably have intel that you're going to go public yes and you haven't gone public yet right but once you've gone public it's it's pretty hard to you know completely destroy somebody's life i mean that's jessie i will also say especially in the digital age people are waking up and they can trace things better and i think they're sniffing out BS to be honest just on on levels that you know it's like you had the old epstein the epstein thing went on for so long and other things like it and i don't say

see things like that quite working today. I mean, the things that do work today are like, you know, mass surveillance and leaders just like super quiet stuff, but like really going after individuals and trying to blackmail. Like that stuff, it's, it's, I don't think that's super effective on a go forward basis. I tend to agree with you. And, you know, the other thing is, is that the people in the people who are close to people who we want to come forward. You know, the Hal Put-offs, Eric Davis, Dave Grush, Lou Elizando, Chris Mellon, and so on, you know, they all tell us that they know people who's preference would be to be able to tell the truth about this. But they, what they report is that these sources are afraid of not, you know, losing their jobs, losing their clearances, which effectively ends their career. in national security, but they also are dreadfully worried about being prosecuted.

And, you know, but my view about that is that, you know, I just don't believe that it would happen. First of all, I don't either. There's a young lawyer named Dylan Guthrie who's got a piece that's come out in Harvard Law Review, I believe, and in a small section of his lengthy article, he talks about the fact that he has done at least some investigating, and he has found so far that there is not a single instance that he's come across where a person got indicted and prosecuted, or even indicted, I think, for having revealed information in an appropriately secure manner with Congress. Okay. This isn't about going public, but, you know, if you contact Congress and behind closed doors, you convey to them information that was not yet shared or shared in full

with Congress by the executive branch. The government has never prosecuted, uh, occasionally. like that. And because it gets into very murky constitutional issues about what are the rights and privileges of the executive branch versus the legislative branch, right? Okay. Moreover, imagine this. Imagine if a whistleblower, a source, comes to the Senate Intelligence Committee and says, here's what I know and lays it all out. And the government then says, the executive branch says, you shouldn't it's against it's against our rules for you to have said that to Congress we're going to indict you and prosecute you now imagine that right so something that for 80 years the government has denied the existence of yeah right right and and congress has passed laws requiring that it be

kept fully informed of any anything of significance for national security so the executive branch has violated the law right that Congress passed and the president signed, imagine them coming forward and said, yeah, we didn't tell Congress about this, but we're going to prosecute you for telling Congress. Yeah, you put them in a bind. Good luck. Yeah, well, they, yeah, they have to admit that they, that they have knowledge of this stuff. And, and the hypocrisy of such a step like that, I think Congress would be, I personally think they would be outraged. Totally. And, and would not abide for, abide. And so I actually, I actually think that the fear of prosecution is unfounded.

Now, easy for me to say, I'm not the person whose livelihood and security depends on, you know, is at stake here. So I'm certainly understanding if people listening to this would say, Yeah, fine for you to say, but I'm not taking the chance. But I really think that it's something that we have to resolve. We have to figure out a way around this Catch-22. We definitely do. A lot of this stuff seemed to come out around, you know, you have the Church Committee of 1975,

and I think it was a senator from Idaho, Frank Church. You looked into all sorts of malfeasance on the part of the intelligence community stemming from, you know, Watergate, obviously rumors of like the, you know, Warren Commission around JFK assassination being totally compromised, I believe it was. But also other revelations of, you know, MK Ultra and that sort of thing. Do you think any of that dovetails with this kind of UAP issue, especially maybe with respect to MK Ultra where we know now that they were doing kind of experiments around telepathy? Like you had this guy, Andre Pujerich, who was doing experiments with, you know, know, telepathic kids? Yeah. And is there a connection because when people claim to be abducted, they seem to communicate telepathically with the alien beings? Yeah. Jesse, I think it's a great question, and it's something that I am really intrigued by. Because, you know, in the 1950s, from the early 50s, I believe, I'm not a serious student of this yet. I'm certainly trying to read more and more about it. But from the 50s on up through, some stay, it never went away, even after

the church committee. You know, about, they were looking into mind control, you know, remote viewing, you know, clairvoyance, all of that. And that overlay is in time with us learning. that people who encounter non-human intelligence, they're being communicated with telepathically. And so just coincidentally, coincidentally, the United States government all of a sudden decides to start investigating the same, you know, psychic powers and psychic issues, you know, it looks,

that looks very suspicious to me. Like, one of the main reasons I suspect that we were studying that stuff and had those programs was because of what we were learning about UFOs and extraterrestrials. Admittedly, we had soldiers in the Korean War who were subjected to mind control stuff, you know, by the North Koreans and the Russians. So, you know, that certainly was a stimulus, right, that I can't discount and I don't want to discount. But the rest of it, as I think you're suggesting, is very suspicious in terms of the overlay with the UFO problem. I would also like to mention, I recently was told about these things called the telepathy tapes, which is getting a lot of attention now. And I've listened to, you know, a dozen of them. And for those who aren't familiar with this,

these are our podcasts, I guess, sessions, lengthy ones, a whole series of them, about caregivers and neuroscientists and psychologists who are working with non-speaking autistic people, children as well as adults as they've grown up. And these people, it seems pretty clear, have some mental telepathy capabilities. And they connect with each other across vast distances. The experiments need to be done more rigorously

and with double-blind experimentation protocols. But if you just listen to the tapes, it's overwhelmingly obvious to a person who's not dogmatic, that there's something going on. Yeah. And that's not explained by modern scientific paradigm. Yeah. Yeah.

That's correct. Now, you know, you mentioned earlier how put-offs work on instantaneous communications. And so, you know, how is searching for a physics explanation, for telepathy and probably leading into remote viewing and so forth. So what we have is the fact of telepathy happening between human beings and non-human extraterrestrials. We seem to have communication among just humans among autistic, non-speaking people. And then you have a physics explanation that Hal Putoff and others are working on, which involve so-called highly technical terms, scalar, and vector potentials.

Okay, so the only thing that's kind of missing here is like, can the human brain mimic what Hal is talking about? And so is the human brain wired in such a way, architected in such a way that it can function in these quantum mechanical ways and in terms of modern extended electrodynamics. And if, and there are some hints at least out there in the medical profession, at least as a layman, I think I'm seeing that, that suggests that this is possibly the case. Yeah, well, I mean, you have, it's converging on an answer. We don't have an answer, but it's like, okay, so you have Roger Penrose, who's a very well-respected physicist, you know, worked on black holes and collaborated with Stephen Hawking. Yeah. Nobel Prize winner. Yeah. And he, you know, was sort of laughed out of the room because you can't talk about consciousness in those circles. But he has this very interesting theory called orchestrated objective reduction, which, you know, involves a quantum biological process where we, you know, collapsed Schrodinger's wave function. And you could say, you could dismiss that out of hand, you know, whatever, but we know that there are other quantum biological processes you can now

prove. I mentioned the thing of birds navigating via the magnetosphere of the Earth with electron spin and the specific avian cryptochrome protein. But there are other examples. There's, you know, enzyme creation, there's quantum tunneling around DNA. And so, and I believe photosynthesis, we now think involves quantum biological processes. So the idea that the body, which is warm, wet, and noisy is not, you know, can't allow for quantum coherence is going out the window. So then you have to open up this idea of maybe the Penrose model is right. And then at the same time, you have this idea that the government studied non-local

consciousness modalities for decades. And this idea of the idea that, you know, where does thought even come from? It's clearly not being locally produced when you're daydreaming. you're not constructing your thoughts actively. It seems like you're receiving them from elsewhere. And then you have all the remote viewing data that Jessica Utt, who is the president of the American Statistical Society, reviewed for the CIA, saying that, you know, this is extremely replicable, like, well beyond, like, other scientific fields, as far as the P values, you know, the probabilities that you'd get hits on these sort of remote viewing targets. And so that seems like, you know, consciousness is this sort of really non-lobaly. thing, which again comports with quantum entanglement, the quantum stuff.

So I don't think it's so crazy to say that you have phenomenologically all this evidence with remote viewing and the telepathy tapes, even though, you know, in the telepathy tapes, you know, in certain cases it's anecdotal, but I think it's, I think it's pretty overwhelming. And then in the CIA case, it's actually statistically relevant with Jessica Utts, who's a total good faith actor and, you know, seems very, very earnest. And then meanwhile, you have this kind of burgeoning field of quantum biology. And so I think we'll probably discover something around that somewhat soon. And I've spoken to Hal Putoff about this.

You know, do we have extended electrodynamical models that might, you know, line up with consciousness? And he pointed me towards the work of Cleve Baxter, who, you know, he talks about, like, plant communication. And so, yeah, I think he's, you know, interested in the, you know, this as well, is there some sort of physicalist model of where we can eventually decode carrier, you know, a carrier of thought itself. Yeah. Because, I mean, another example, there's, they're anecdotal examples of, you have like Lucille Ball who, uh, had a filling in her tooth. This is in the telepathy tapes. Yeah. And she's driving on some overpass and she starts to hear the radio in her head. Right. And this is a well-known, this is scientifically proven as well. It's called

bone induction where you have metal in the mouth could, you know, pick up RF signals. Yeah. And you can, you know, all of a sudden hear things. And I think Andre Pooerich had a similar case where it was like somebody working in a, you know, a metal mill or whatever, you know, it's metallic or got in his teeth. And, you know, all of a sudden he was, he was being, you know, he's transmitting signals from elsewhere. So I think there's so much to discover, you know, in this area. And it's probably not traditional. radio frequency because if you can if if the consciousness is happening you know non-locally if you are in a fair day chamber you shouldn't be able to think given that right because that's

cutting out all rf signals um so like yeah presumably it's something else and maybe it is this extended electrodynamical model that you know might explain thought who knows i mean we're super really ability to project thoughts you know to transmit them uh out of your own head and into somebody else's head, you know, and for them to be able to perceive it, receive and perceive it is, you know, I mean, something, something, there has to be a physics explanation for how non-human intelligence communicates with the humans

that they encounter telepathically. I mean, I believe it happens, And there has to be a way to figure out how, how that happens. Yeah. But do you have any hope for, you know, if this is so beneficial to humanity, which I think both of us think it is if we let this stuff out, you know, do you have any hope for the president disclosing this? And why hasn't, you know, Trump already disclosed this?

Because you have Donald Trump Jr. interviewing Ross Colthart on the eve of his breaking of the Jake Barber's story. So, like, what, you know, clearly, like, there's, there's connectivity. There's people in the Trump admin who are very aware of this issue. I think Tim Walts has, you know, spoken about David Grush publicly and his revelations and, like, is, you know, is very interested. And I think Tulsi is very interested. She said, you know, she wants UAP transparency, you know, and I've had a brief conversation

with her around this topic as well. She seems very, she seems to know it's real. and but she, you know, she wants to like put this stuff out. But it also feels like with a lot of these people, they have so many other priorities. And so, yeah, what do you think happens? I can't even hazard a guess, Jesse, because I don't have any connections into those circles. And I don't know what's being said, you know, privately. I don't have any idea.

Yeah, so I'm certainly hopeful, but I have no insight. I'm sorry to say. No, it's okay. Well, any other things you want to touch on? I am interested in talking about what the mindset might have been for the Atomic Energy Commission and the intelligence community and the Defense Department. Can I tee you off and ask a quick question on that? So why do you think this was made secret in the first place? It's just, you know, it should be kind of ontological truth, right? It should be basic kind of, you know, an understanding of, you know, whether we're alone in the universe should not be classified, right?

Yeah, that's a really good point. But, you know, what I've thought about that, to the extent I've thought about it, Jesse, is, is I think, like, right after the war, the leadership in the country, thinking back on the events of the previous couple of decades and probably felt that we were just exhausted. I mean, we'd been through two world wars, this long-lasting depression. We were entering into, we were already into a cold war with the communist regime in Russia. And here we were, you know, experiencing, you know, having to deal with the reality of UFOs and extraterrestrial life and the like. And I can just so imagine the view that this would be another cataclysmic shock to society and the world order and the world's religions. We were barely, you know, a decade removed from Orson Wells' War of the World's event. I think that was in 1938.

And that literally touched off mass hysteria. It was this reading of H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds by Orson Welles, famous Autour director. And people went nuts until they realized it was not real. Well, that's right. But it was a lesson, right, that the leadership. of the country could take and say, you know, this can't be a good idea to let people know about this. And I guess I can also imagine that, you know, we wanted to figure out, we wanted to figure out what it was all about before we would even ever consider letting this out. You know,

when Roswell allegedly happened, it took very little time for Washington to react. Like, you know, what was it, Jesse Marcell or whoever was the press person down at Roswell? Marcel was the Air Force Intelligence Officer. Walter Hot, I believe. Okay, Hot was the public relations guy. Colonel Blanchard was kind of dealing with Hot. and then who was it was it was it ramy was the guy from yeah he was from the fort worth yeah fort worth and he was like yeah shut up you know don't put this out well uh and and you know it didn't take long

like word went out uh that they had made this announcement back to washington and the order to shut the hell up and uh bottled this up came came pretty quick you know uh i've always been impressed by that it sort of belies the lethargy of the bureaucracy, you know, almost as if there had been some, you know, long-term awareness and a decision already made in Washington, like, this is bad news. And so wherever it pops up, you got to react to it pretty quickly. And Roswell was the site of the only American nuclear system. stockpile at the time. That's right. And bomber force. And bomber force. Yeah, 5009th atomic bomber squad. Yeah, that's right. So, so I certainly think that, that, you know,

that there, that there was a reason for this immediate reaction. But Jesse, on a sustained basis, you know, the executive branch, if people like us are correct, act that they really have known and studied carefully this to the best of their ability within bureaucratic constraints and budget constraints and so on, that they have accumulated a lot of information about this over the decades. And if, as some believe, you know, if you look at, well, if you just look at alleged UAP performance, there's some mighty interesting technology. involved there. And if the government knows about that, but has chosen to keep it from being applied

to solve, you know, the pressing needs of the American people and indeed society the world over, you know, for travel, aerospace travel, for energy, and who knows what else, you know, why would Why would the government have decided? And frankly, this is one of the criticisms of this view by skeptics is, look, if the military could fly craft around like UFOs, do you think they would have scroll it away where, so what if they have like 12 of them or something? We have thousands of F-35s and F-15s and F-16s. Why wouldn't we have applied this technology to our entire military?

force. You know, why are we still powering armored vehicles with with, with, uh, diesel fuel and gasoline if we had the ability to take electrical power right from the physical vacuum?

Why haven't we used the hydrogen bomb yet, you know? Um, well, you know, yeah, I mean, I think the hydrogen bomb predated our mastery, any mastery of this technology, but, but sure. Yeah, I'm just saying, like, we have all, We have all sorts of ace in the whole tech that we haven't allowed to be shown to the public for very... Well, you know, but the public knows about it and we've applied it to our forces in an observable, informed way.

Yeah. Like, we, we, everybody knows. We've invested in hundreds of ICBMs and sea-based ballistic missiles and so on. So why would you limit this technology's reach? if we actually had analyzed it and reversed engineered any of it. And it's a legitimate and difficult question to answer. I don't have an answer, but my own speculation is that I can think of a reason why the government might take that position.

And the answer would be, all our previous discussions about Nikola Tesla, T.T. Brown, and lots of others, is what if the government discovered that it's not that hard, after all, to access the physical vacuum and extract energy from it? And what if, yeah, that energy is extremely potent and can be weaponized? Sure. And what if it's not that hard to do that? And in fact, doesn't even require mammoth engineering enterprises like our nuclear establishment requires.

so that, you know, a Kim Jong-un could be doing this in some warehouse someplace, right? That would be disastrous. And I would, and if that were the case, I would hope that there's some sort of strategic thinking around how to let some of this stuff partially out or in a black boxed way or in a way that, you know, the Western forces control or whatever. And I would fully comply with that because I don't want, you know, Kim, to have to have a beam weapon. No, I don't. Vaporize New York City or something.

That might be where I deviate with UFO circles. It's like, I don't want dictators that would literally if they had the capabilities to destroy the U.S. By hitting a button, they would. And so, yeah, or use that as a... Or some doomsday cult or something. Yeah, or you trade Seoul for San Francisco with that, you know, if you're talking about the Kim Jong-un thing.

So, yeah, I, or yeah, some deemsday cult or, you know, accelerationist want to bring a you know some eschatological you know apotheosis I don't know so so yeah no I'm I'm with that so anyway I did this is this is one possible possible explanation that that I thought of where I could reconcile with observable facts I of course once again I want to stress because I'm sure my friends Hal Putoff and Eric Davis and others whoever watch this will will be upset with me for even suggesting this because they don't think that it's, or they say they don't think that it is as possible. But what if it is, you know, then the government, the government, but, but, but you know, my problem with this, Jesse, is that even if they've got good reasons for doing what they did, in other words, if their, if their intentions were noble.

Yeah. I just don't see that you can lock out the United States Congress. I mean, look, I came from Congress. I'm a career there. I'm an institutionalist. Congress, under our mode of government, has to be involved in managing this, in oversight of this, in resourcing it, and balancing interests and concerns. So, you know, look, you know, you don't have to reveal all this publicly, but you sure have to at least bring Congress in as a partner. And that's been my objective in this whole thing. I mean, my primary objective is to get this under a proper sort of constitutional framework.

Cool. That's how I would answer your question. Yeah. Well, Kirk McConnell, it's an honor to have you on. I really appreciate your time. This is a blast. And, yeah, I would love to have you back at some point. And yeah, thank you for everything you're doing. And I hope you are enjoying your time out of government. Well, thank you very much. I do miss it, but I also don't miss it. I know exactly. I mean, yeah. All right, man. Thanks so much. Yeah, thank you. It's a real honor to be on your show.

I'm underqualified to interview you, so thank you. Oh, hard. Awesome. What is up, Alchemist? If you're interested in joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive, never before seen episodes of American Alchemy, like my walk-and-talk with Danny Sheehan on who exactly killed JFK, or a remote viewing debate between Hal Put Off and Eric Weinstein,

then please join our WOP community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new WOP. I also hosted a discussion between the infamous Jack Sarfotti and former American alchemist, Science Bob McGuire. Head over to Wop.com slash Jesse Michaels, Michaels with NoA, to become a member today.