American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - The Biblical Truth of UFOs & Angels (ft. Karl Nell & Diana Pasulka)

Episode Date: December 19, 2024

Discuss today's episode with others on our Whop! https://whop.com/jessemichels/ In this episode of American Alchemy, Jesse Michels hosts Diana Walsh Pasulka, author of American Cosmic, and Colonel Karl Nell, former UAP task force representative, for a fascinating discussion on the intersection of UFOs, religion, and science. They explore connections between modern UAP phenomena and ancient religious concepts, touching on angels, St. Francis, Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, and esoteric space exploration. Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction 02:54 - The Case For Aliens (First Principles Thinking) 06:18 - Testimonial Evidence 10:40 - Biblical UFOs 17:02 - St. Francis & Angels 19:37 - Non-Disclosure From the Government 22:26 - Cosmism 25:51 - Angel Hierarchies (Modern Frameworks) 29:35 - Allegory of the Cave / The Apocalypse 32:01 - Mysticism / Egypt 34:42 - Technology 38:00 - Angels & Demons 39:51 - Hereticon Talk 41:35 - The Antichrist 43:30 - Rene Girard 45:30 - Plato 51:25 - Esotericism 55:50 - Religion is Real 01:02:28 - Occult NASA 01:09:10 - Tyler 01:16:34 - The Invisibles 01:19:23 - Outro SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify DISCORD ➤ https://discord.gg/jessemichels INSTAGRAM (Personal) ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichels INSTAGRAM (Show) ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [e-mail] Original music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/6LlLRudDi60Uy4jcmOSEs1 #aliens #nasa #space #history #consciousness #religion Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs to help him see if he can afford it. Co-pilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work.

Now, Hank has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Co-Pilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365Copilot.com slash work. So why are we here? I think this talk, we want to kind of accomplish two aims. One is talking about how UFOs are real. They're real phenomena. They're real thing. But I think that's somewhat passe and conventional at this point. Over 50% of the American population at this point probably believes in the existence of UFOs. We're at Hereticon. So I think the real heresy here would be actually linking UFOs as a modern observable scientific phenomena with. past religious phenomena. So angels and demons would be kind of the popular nomenclature of the past. Is what we're experiencing today, what we've experienced in the past? And so is religion actually real? You know, the Latin root of religion is relegare, which means to relink. And it's our

belief on this panel that through observing UFOs, we can relink ourselves with, you know, kind of a past epistemology that we've always had. And that modernity is actually somewhat of an aberration from that epistemology. So I have two amazing guests to discuss this with me. First, I have Diana Walsh Pesulka. She is a classicist and religious studies professor who specializes in Catholic history. She wrote a great book in 2014 called Heaven Can Wait about the Catholic concept of purgatory. And then very interestingly, she followed that up with two books on UFO phenomena as kind of a meta-religious modern phenomena. In 2018, she wrote an amazing book called American Cosmic, which is like the modern Ufology Bible.

I highly recommend you read it. And in 2023, she wrote a great book called Encounters. And she and her own right is somewhat of a, you know, kind of a mystic and truth seeker. And so very honored to have her. We also have Colonel Carl Nell on stage. Very excited to have him. He's a very polymathic thinker. And it's always hard to present him because his CV is very long and impressive.

but he worked at aerospace companies like Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman. He's commanded every level of the Army to brigade. He helped set up Army Futures Command, so he ran a lot of tech modernization efforts for the Army. And probably most relevant for this talk, he was the Army representative for the UAP or unidentified anomalous phenomena task force, which basically was directed to look into UAP, UFOs. use those interchangeably in their existence and reality. And so, you know, he's a privily to a lot of classified information, but here he'll be talking about the non-classified information. I want to start with you, Carl, to, you know, allay audience, you know, how would you convince them that

UFOs are real? Because this whole talk is kind of, you know, predicated on that fact. Well, thank you, Jesse. It's a pleasure to be here and great to be here with Diana and really excited about this event. So yeah, we actually looked into this area and so probably privy to a lot of information that's not publicly available. So, you know, how can the rest of the folks out there maybe have some confidence that, you know, there's some reality of this subject? So there's sort of three lines of evidence that you can look at. There's the first principles. There's sort of testimonial from people that are in positions to know. And then there's the data. So like if we're going to kind of run through those from first principles, you know, the going in position is probably the laws of

physics are the same here that they are everywhere else. And I doubt there's some exceptions, but in general, that's pretty much accepted by everybody. And so if you look at how quickly life evolved on our planet, the argument that's usually made is that life is uncommon and that faster than light travel is not possible. And both of these things really have no evidence for them. It's the exact opposite. So, for instance, their blue-green algae fossilized and stromatalites from 3.5 billion years ago. And recent scholarship has indicated that life may have evolved even earlier 4.1 billion years ago. So the earth itself is 5 billion years old.

The crust has not even cooled by 4.1 billion years ago. So there's evidence that life evolved on Earth at the earliest possible time, even earlier than would be reasonably suspected. There's microbes that can live in outer space that we've determined are viable. And recently, as of maybe a month ago, people identified microbes that were in stasis in two billion-year-old terrestrial rock that were brought back to life. So in essence, life is either evolving very quickly or some sort of panspormia situations going on. That's what all the evidence sort of suggests. If you look at the sun, the sun is what's called a population one star.

there's 20 billion population one stars in the galaxy. The sun is like a relatively young population one star. There's stars that are like the sun that are five billion years older than the sun. So that's like a massive amount of time for other civilizations to potentially evolve on these other planets. And just statistically. So then you look at like faster than light travel, like can they get here? You don't even need that assumption. But Miguel Alcabir, a Mexican postgraduate student, University of Mexico, in 19,

1994 solved Einstein's equations for an effective faster than light mechanism. NASA's looked into this. There's no dispute that the solution is a valid solution. So it requires this thing called negative energy to work. Well, negative energy is a component of quantum mechanics. The Cosimir effect, which was known in the 60s and demonstrated in the 90s, is evidence for the for the existence of negative energy. The expansion of the universe, which we've recently determined is accelerating, is due to something called dark energy, dark energy is negative energy. So we've got an effective solution for Einstein's equations that requires negative energy, and we know it negative energy exists.

This isn't an engineering solution, but it is a theoretical solution. So it's very much disingenuous to suggest that life is uncommon and fast and light travel as possible. Both of those are false. So that's sort of the first principles argument, once you kind of put that into the context of all the other evidence. So let's look at testimonial. Now, testimonial isn't hard scientific factual data, but then you've got to explain why people such as Barack Obama, Donald Trump, all say that UFOs are real. They're in a position to have been briefed on this. You can look at the Admiral of the Fleet, Lord Hill Norton of the United Kingdom, former Minister of Defense staff, has basically said UFOs are real. You can look at Haim Eshed, the father of the Israeli-Hed, the father of the Israeli space program that says non-human intelligence is real. You can look at Paul Hellyer, the former

minister of defense for Canada, who said non-human intelligence is real. You can look at Chris Mellon, who's the first assistant secretary of defense for intelligence, for the for janitor for the Undersecretary for Intel and Security, has come out and said UFOs are real. You can look at David Grush, who just testified last year before the House Committee on oversight to the effect that there is a government program looking at the UFOs because they're real. And he was accompanied by two naval aviators that said the same thing. You can look at Lou Elizondo, who's a very famous UAP whistleblower. And there's many more of these. So that's sort of like the testimonial evidence. In fact, you can look at the legislation that was just submitted by Senator Schumer and Senator Rounds

and as well as Senator Rubio and Senator Gillibrand and several other of their colleagues last year that basically said we need to look into this. The Congress is not being told the truth. And there's evidence that the government knows more than what they're saying about this topic. In fact, Senator Rounds and Senator Schumer had a colloquy to discuss this very topic and intended to reintroduce that legislation. And so then you can look at the data. We've got videos, what they call colloquially, the floor, the gimbal, the go-fast,

that show unidentified flying objects that the Pentagon is asserted or not ours and are not our adversaries. And they date from events that happen in 2004 and 2015. You can look at the experience of Gordon Cooper, one of America's first Mercury 7 astronauts who chased UFOs in 1951 over West Germany, and it testified before the United Nations in 1979 to that fact. You can look at incursions over the northern U.S. ballistic missile warning system in the 70s where radars were picking up UFOs. And then you can look at in the 1960s, the readiness status change of our ICBMs at Malmastrum Air Force Base, where missiles were taken offline.

And then in the Soviet Union, an analogous thing where missiles were brought online, and there are FOIA documents and testimony to the reality of that. there's an agreement between the former Soviet Union and the United States that's still in force intending to reduce the threat of nuclear war where there's a stipulation that either side will notify the other if UFOs impact their missile early warning systems. So people say, well, if this is real like, why don't they just like, you know, land on the White House lawn? Well, in 1952, the radar visual sightings over Washington, D.C. for two weekends, including air-to-air intercepts, that percentage, the largest press conference since World War II up to that time. And so people say, well, okay, why don't it just land in the middle of the day?

And that's happened in 1994 in Rua Zimbabwe, where craft landed and beings presenting themselves to elementary school-age children in the middle of the day. That an almost similar identical incident happened in 1966 in West Hall, Australia. there's a concerted correlation between UFO or UAP activity and nuclear sites. The PANTAC site in Texas and the Hanford plutonium production facility have numerous UFO sightings and correlations. And in fact, this extends to overseas sites, even the Fukushima incident had correlation. So looking at the evidence both from the standpoint of first principles, from the standpoint of people who would know,

and from factual information, it's indisputable that this is a real phenomenon. And when it comes to UFOs, I think there's this kind of misnomer that this all started in the 40s. It started with the advent of our nuclear program. Diana, you've done some amazing work about how this might comport with things that we've observed in our religious tradition and in history in the past. Okay, yeah, sure. So first I want to explain a little bit about what we do in my field, which is called, called religious studies. Religious studies is a discipline that is academic, so I'm not going to, we don't advocate for religion. We're not ministers or theologians. We're academics. We use

archaeology, history, you know, academic disciplines in order to look at social effects of basically religion. Most of the people in the world are religious, more than 80, usually 83, about 83 to 85 percent of the world affiliate with some religion. So it's actually important. to study religion. I'm not going to advocate for belief in UFOs. I'm going to tell you my story about how I got into this because I was never, I never thought about UFOs. In fact, until three years ago, I had not seen close encounters of the third kind. And what a great movie that is, by the way. So, yeah, so I'm not going to advocate for belief in UFOs, but what I am going to do is tell you about my entrance into this field, which has ramped up considerably since I started in 2012.

So in 2012, I was writing a book called Heaven Can Wait about what in my field we call assent narratives. All cultures have their own forms of this genre of oral tradition or literature. And what an ascent narrative is is basically a person who is either touring the afterlife, like Dante touring, hell, purgatory, and then heaven. A pre-Christian ascent narrative would be the allegory of the cave in Plato's Republic. where a person thinks that reality are these shadows on the wall and ascends out of the cave and recognizes that, wow, there's another reality. So this is what I was doing. I was looking at assent narratives in the Catholic history and Christian history. And I utilized archives.

So archives are, I've been to the Vatican and looked at their various archives. They have many over 53 miles of shelving of old documents. These are the kinds of things you see in archives, material culture, codexes, you know, things like this. Philadelphia has a wonderful archive. And so I looked at archives and I was looking for data about purgatory, which I found. But I also found reports of aerial phenomena by Catholic people from Europe and Canada and the United States from 1,200 to 1800. And I thought these were interesting because a lot of times when Catholic, European Catholics, say, something in the sky, they would have a moment of confusion. What is this? You know, what are the things they would see in the sky? So they would see discs, light, orbs. Sometimes they would see things

they thought were flying houses, okay, the flying house of Laredo. So these, you know, they would see these aerial phenomena. And I took notes because I'm a researcher and that's what I do. I don't leave data out. So I had this long list of these sightings. Sometimes they would interpret them as sole from purgatory that needed to be prayed away. But they saw these things. And I thought that was interesting, but UFOs never crossed my mind. So I kept a log of these sightings. So I showed a friend of mine and said, what do you think of these reports? And immediately he looked at them and said, they remind me of a Steven Spielberg movie. They look like UFOs. And I thought he was silly. Okay, I thought he was silly. I didn't think about it again until I started to publish my information about

these events and reports, what now I call angel contact events generally is how I refer to them. I started to get inquiries from people at aerospace companies, and not just one. I got a lot, and I was thinking that this was strange because this has never happened to me before when I was writing about Catholic history, but it was the specific thing, which was the angel reports. And they wanted my data. And they were very interested in certain things. They wanted to know, what did the people describe seeing? Did the people describe light?

What was the color of the light? What did the objects look like? And most interesting to me, did the people report injuries? Okay, did the people report injuries? Well, yes, actually, they did. So they wanted my data. I happened to meet one of these people. This was quite an impressive person.

is I call him pseudonymously in the book that I wrote about this, Tyler. And he had amazing credentials. He worked for our space program. He was the government liaison to Elon Musk for certain missions. And he said that they had acquired debris from UFO crash sites and that he was reverse engineering these and they were creating this technology, kind of game changing technology. That was in 2016 that I went with people that I had to have as pseudonyms. Okay, so now Gary Nolan has come out. And that's actually a relief to me that he's come out as himself. And the reason why we went was because Tyler, who's still a pseudonym, for a person who is a mission controller and works in the space force.

So whereas I was looking at these as maybe metaphoric or historical, you know, not necessarily, well, not at all real. That's not what we do in my field. We're not looking at these as real themes. All of these very intelligent, credentialed, highly placed people, scientists were looking at these as if they were real. And so that was shocking to me. Okay. I then looked back at my tradition, at the Catholic tradition, and I looked at some of the most iconic angel contact events. And I began to understand them in a different way. And one that you might know about is the, the stigmata. So the stigmata happened to St. Francis of Assisi, arguably the most famous saint of the Catholic Church. Even though you may not be Catholic, you've seen statues of him. If you've, you know, gone into gardens, you'll see him. He has, you know, usually a bird on his shoulder or something like that. So a very charismatic person living in the 1200s in Europe. And he had an experience of, thankfully they have one of these here, of this seraphim. So if you'll see over here and the icon of this event is a seraphim, which I thought was really, it actually convinced me to come.

I was like, yeah, I'll come and I'll talk about what I've studied and, you know, what I know about. So the seraphim is this angel, and it doesn't look like the angels that we typically know about. And, well, if you look at the primary source material of these contact events, it looks like that. And it generally has an eye in the middle of it, and it does it injure. I looked at the primary source, material for St. Francis of Assisi. And what I found was that when he had this contact with this thing that he described as a seraphim, it came down, there was light, it had an eye, and there are competing primary source reports. But the best report shows that Brother Leo, who's about 15, he's watching, and he sees that this is how he describes it, that this thing dealt harshly

with Francis. Afterwards, Francis was injured. And the tradition determines that these injuries are called the wounds of Christ. What happened was that this was a very hush, hush situation for Francis and Leo. And when they went back to the convent, he tried as best as he could to make Francis comfortable because he was injured. And they didn't tell anybody. Okay. So it was completely quiet. It was a stigma. Okay, it was literally a stigma. And so he eventually died most likely from these wounds. And what's so amazing about that story, the burns on St. Francis of Assisi's hands really comport one-to-one with what the CIA is now

studying as far as people who've encountered UFO. So they work with Gary Nolan, who's a microbiologist, Nobel nominee at Stanford, who actually has a foundation dedicated to this. And the CIA came knocking at a story. and they're like we have this files of people who've had all these anomalous experiences, and they really comport with, you know, it's like he had, you know, electromagnetic radiation. They just didn't really have the words to describe it. But in using the term stigmata and stigma, we bring up this idea of non-disclosure,

this idea that power structure is kind of institutionally gate reality from us. So is that happening in the modern UFO context as well, Carl? Yeah, thanks for that question. So, yeah, exactly. So there's sort of six principles or reasons for non-disclosure of this information from a government standpoint. The first being national security. Like, you don't want the adversary to know what you know and so on. And then, you know, the second reason is sort of lack of a plan. This is so profound and impactful. And as Peter Till sort of alluded, you know, there may be technology with unknown ramification.

And, you know, if you let that out there, it could have significantly detrimental effect. So you've got this lack of a plan issue. you've got this potential for societal disruption, like the ontological shock that will come from a realization of angels and aliens. You've got the potential for a covert agreement where people are benefiting from the status quo that is not in public, the potential for misdeeds having occurred and the desire to cover up misdeeds, and the potential just organizational and transigence lack of a priority that you expect of any type of bureaucracy. And so this isn't like necessarily theoretical, right? You can look at historical documents

It's 1953, there's declassified documents. There's a panel called the Robertson panel at the CIA that basically said the government decides to debunk this topic, to misdirect the public and to actually infiltrate the organizations that existed at the time, the public organizations that were looking into this. This is absolutely established fact. Nobody disputes this and the documents are available. People perhaps heard of Project Blue Book. this in a dozen year study looking at UFOs by the U.S. Air Force. Air Force wanted to get out of this job. They commissioned a study from the University of Colorado. Ed Condon led the studies of Manhattan Project alum. He wrote the conclusion of the study before the study was complete, bragged about it.

A lot of the scientists on the study defected publicly from the study. The study got published. The content of the study is at odds with the conclusions, but the Air Force can't. Project Bluewick anyway. So this really leads to what I think are sort of four heresies that maybe we'd like to talk about in the context of the Hereticon, the first being that non-disclosure of uncomfortable aspects of reality is a universal constant across cultures and across time. And the second piece, as Diana alluded, is that there's a hierarchy of being with non-human intelligence being included in that. Cosmism, which Diane is an expert at, is at the root of both the Russian and the U.S. space program.

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certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. I actually want to get into Cosmism. So this idea that, I mean, you met a, you know, somebody deep in the space program who was a nuts and bolts, you know, contributor to our space program.

We think of our space program as, you know, Elon Musk is the tip of the spear. All we have is sort of chemical combustion. But you're speaking to this guy who, you know, in your book you write about pseudonymously named Tyler, who is engaging in sort of like consciousness protocols. And that's somehow essential to his work. And then you go back and you do research about the early American and Russian space programs and how, you know, a lot of these people think that they're in touch with angelic and in certain cases demonic beings. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, sure. So, so Cosmism, what's that? So there are, when, this, when this happened to me in 2012, I started to get my bearings after, you know, this recognition

that people in aerospace in some of these companies were actually doing this work and what this meant. I was shocked. I saw my own tradition from a different lens. And I decided to go back and to look at the space programs, the viable ones. That would be the American space program, ours, and the Russian space program. And so I started to do the preliminary, you know, work that a person does when they're looking at this is, you know, what were their belief systems? The ones that inspired these men in the early 20th century, late 19th century, early 20th century, what inspired them to create rocket technologies that were successful and actually got us off the planet? So if you go to the Russian Cosmist tradition, which is a similar tradition, you know, where they believe in, you know,

like Konstantin Kikovsky believed in NHI and that he was, you know, he believed in this and he wrote books about it. And he's the father of Russian rocketry. They're Christian. They have kind of a Christian overlay to this or framework. And so I saw this as the beginning of the Russian space program. And I began to do the same work with our space program. And in fact, I found it was Jack Parsons. Now, of course, if anybody knows about Jack Parsons, the patterns here match in terms of he believed that he was in contact. Jack Parsons is the father of our space program, by the way. Super interesting work with Alistair Crowley. So obviously he's not giving his N.H.I. A Christian veneer. But I wouldn't say he's calling it demonic, though. Like, sorry. That's my interpretation. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people say,

oh, he was, you know, demonic. But he didn't view what he was doing as demonic. He actually viewed what he was doing as good. He thought that he was working for the common task of humans, of getting us into the space. So this would be the Russian and the American cause. In fact, I named my book American Cosmic because I was impressed that we hadn't talked about it, and I thought this somebody should. Modernity is an aberration in that we think man is apex consciousness. That is sort of a detour when it comes to the epistemology of mankind across thousands of years. And in fact, many religious scholars in the past have gone so far as to classify a lot of the beings between us and God. And so St. Thomas Aquinas had his angel hierarchies, Eamblicus, who's a Syrian neoplatonist, also had similar angel hierarchies. And they literally have taxonomies and categorizations for these angels. They describe them.

They describe some of the effects of people that observe them. In some cases, it's literally, you will say, like, irradiated light. So it sounds like kind of electromagnetic damage or whatever. So, Carl, do we have any kind of modern scientific frameworks for how we should think about NHI or kind of them being higher on the kind of consciousness or evolution chain? Yeah, so the scale that's often used is what's called the Kardashev scale. Nikolai Kartashev, Russian astronomer back in 1964, sort of proposed during the age where optical astronomy was becoming popular and radio astronomy is coming on to identify civilizations based on the ability of them to access the energy of entire star. So you could build this thing called a Dyson sphere around a sun.

And so that would blot out the visible light, but there'd be a big IR signature. And if, you know, astronomers could detect this, then they'd detect this civilization. So he called that a type 2 civilization. And then by extension, there's a type 3 civilization that controls, you know, all the energy output of a galaxy, let's say, and a type 1 civilization, maybe a little bit more advanced from our own that's basically controlling the whole planet. So this is the Kardashev scale. You know, Carl Sagan talks about this, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Michi Oku.

It's like a popular thing. I would argue, though, that the scales, it's really not very instruct. to look at like UFOs and UAP because total civilization energy usage is like an unknowable thing based on observations of potential craft or potential recovered material or biologics or what have you. So there's a better model out there that I would recommend, which is the universal civilization development model. And it goes off of like what they have, what they know, and who they are. And so what they have would be more about energy density than the magnitude of energy usage. So energy density.

Like if I've got a certain energy density, I get fire. I got a greater energy density over a longer time. I can smelt metal. Ultimately, I can do nuclear reactions. Maybe I can warp space and time. Maybe I can even impact the laws of physics. So that's the physics of energy. Jacques Valet has talked about this idea of physics of information.

So how much about the nature of reality does this civilization perhaps know? How much complexity can they manage? What's the time constant for their thought process? How many parallel paths can they contemplate a single time? This idea of consciousness comes into play. So this, you know, almost a physics of information now is this other dimension. And then the third dimension is the ecological evolutionary dimension. What is the chemical basis for this life form?

Where are they on the evolutionary path? Maybe not just a hundred years ahead of us, maybe a million years. What's it look like for a life form to be a billion years ahead of us? What's their relationship with their environment? Or is it omnivorous? It is derived from omnivorous stock, herbivore stock, et cetera. So all these things create a phase space, perhaps, that would be populated by a range of beings and the distance in this phase space.

You know, we might call it the hamming distance by analogy with electromagnetic signal processing might dictate the likelihood of a competition, symbiotic or competitive relationship based on the likely hierarchies that undoubtedly exist. Diana, we're talking about hierarchy of being and man not being the apex of consciousness. And then we're also talking about us, you know, scientists and engineers at the top of our space program using consciousness protocols. If any of this stuff is true, I mean, I feel like a lot of people in the audience probably didn't come and walk into this room believing these things. Are we in Plato's cave? Are we in this sort of epistemic cave?

And if we are, how do we get out? Yes, that's a great question. So, okay, first off, I don't think, and I'm going to reference Peter's talk, okay, because I thought it was really a great segue into some of the things that we were going to talk about. You know, we're told that there's nothing worse than Armageddon, but perhaps there is. Perhaps we should fear the Antichrist. Perhaps we should fear the one-world totalitarian state more than Armageddon. And so I would say that the apocalypse is structural. So for anyone in my field, we know that the apocalypse is always happening. Okay, there's always an apocalypse. So the early Christians who were Jewish actually did have their apocalypse. You know,

the Romans destroyed their temple in 70. That was an apocalypse that those very specifically Jewish Christians were knowing what was going to happen. It happened. But we go on. Things go on. Okay. So what is it then? So the idea that there is an out or, that, you know, there's a solution to the apocalypse. Plato suggests that it's in the allegory of the cave. So he never answers the question, but he gives this allegory. And what it is is basically a conversation. He calls it the dialectic. And he says that what you can do is you can have this conversation. So there's a sense of community baked in here. But it's more than just a conversation. It's a conversation about justice. It's a conversation about good.

goodness. So you're saying kind of contemplation of virtue literally allows you to ascend out of this world in some way in some sort of metaphysical way? I'm not sure. I do believe that's what he's saying. And he's basically saying that there is a sort of conversation that you can have probably not a text message. Right. And that it is a, that's what he presents as the out. And I think if there's a third option, it's going to be that. So with Plato, Diana is sort of talking about. maybe a proto-architecture to religion. And Carl, we've had kind of offline conversations where you've said to me that maybe the esoteric version of a lot of the world's religions are actually sort of normalizable. They actually contain a lot of similarities when it comes to kind of encounters with non-human intelligence. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, well, I think that's actually right. So most of these sort of the Gnostic tradition, the Sufi tradition, Islam, the Kabbalah in Judaism. and even Nondoulos Vedanta, all talk about this sort of inner-looking,

initiatic experience where you're transcending this reality and connecting with a deeper reality. So there's actually an interesting study that was done. The oldest large corpus, like significant corpus of religious texts, like in the world, anywhere, of any tradition, any culture, are the pyramid texts, like Fifth Dynasty, Egypt, something like, you know, 2,500 BC.

And so the Egyptological interpretation of the pyramid text is a funerary. But there's a countervailing scholarship that says, well, actually, it's like really initiatory. When Egyptology was created, it moved away from mysticism and went totally rationalist. And so the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans, anybody that actually knew Egyptian civilization firsthand, knew that they were very esoteric. And so Egyptian scholarship has moved away from that and made the Egyptians extremely rationalist and very much funeral ritual based. Once you put the initiatic experience into the pyramid texts based on something called the SED Festival, which is essentially a kingship ritual that's known to exist, then the pyramid and the pyramid texts become an initiatic engine that the living might actually embark upon.

And this is interesting because then it creates direct connective tissue between the hermetic tradition and the Gnostic tradition that came out of late period Egypt and then influenced both classical antiquity and then early Christian theology. So you've got essentially a linear line that can now be traced potentially to the earliest tradition in an esoteric sense. There's a great Meister Eckhart quote, Theologians make oral, but mystics all speak the same language. So I think it speaks to that sort of pro-archism. There's actually a story, I think, of Jewish Kabbalists meeting with the Dalai Lama, and they're like talking about these non-human intelligences and the colors associated with them. And they're just kind of laughing about how

kind of in agreement they are, worldview-wise. I want to stick with you, Carl, because we are in a room full of entrepreneurs and people in venture capital. And so they might be thinking, okay, all this stuff might be real, but I don't really see it. And it's kind of ephemeral and like, what does this have to do with me? Does any of this investable? Can we turn this into a company? Right. Carl, do you want to? Well, right.

Well, I might hit that ball right back at you because Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Taylor Townsend Brown and some other very interesting, like heretical technology. So I'd invite people, an unsolicited plug, to check out some of Jesse's podcasts. But I would also submit to you, if you sort of look at the arc of technological development, we're getting to the point that Feynman had talked about in the early six. about there's room at the bottom, which is by which he meant, like, we're getting at the level where we can engineer at the molecular level, at the nature that nature operates. And so these disciplines that originally appeared to be disparate, like information science, material science,

the semiconductor fab, genomics, etc., all look pretty much the same once you're able to engineer at the molecular level. So information and materials start to merge. You can come up with programmable matter perhaps, self-healing structures, self-repairing structures. You're starting move into that von Neumann machine level. So I would suggest, you know, looking at that area. Then we alluded earlier to this thing called the Cosmere effect, the Cosmere effect, you put two parallel plates that are conducting very close together, and you would expect, classically, nothing would happen. But what it actually ends up happening, this was predicted and measured, is that there's negative energy states that are created in between the plates.

In other words, there's certain quantum fluctuations that are not supportable between those plates, and there's a pressure that's created between from the pressure outside the plates versus inside, and the plates compress. So basically, that's extracting energy out of the vacuum. Like, that's like free energy. Like, that's not disputable. That's, like, proven fact. So unfortunately, it's not reciprocal.

Nobody's figured out how to make a reciprocating machine. You've got to reset the plates to get the energy out. So that is something that's potentially scalable to a battery, perhaps, but it would be a one-shot battery. If somebody can figure out a way to make that scalable, that would be extremely beneficial. So those are a couple avenues. But just to sort of recap like the heresies, right? So nondisclosure is a universal constant of society. this idea of hierarchy of being, cosmism, you know,

the esoteric aspect of reality being at the basis of the space program and consciousness playing a role in both physics and metaphysics, where our technology is getting to the point where we can perhaps develop a physical basis for consciousness and the developed technologies out of consciousness, which, oh, by the way, any more advanced civilization is probably already gotten to, should open, I think, our eyes collectively that there's sort of group think going on and opportunities that are right in front of our face are being missed because we're not incorporating these other aspects of reality. So in that sense, agnosticism is not like an optional

worldview. Well, Carl, I'll take that plug to the bank. I really appreciate it. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building fit for your ambition for citizens bank i want to wrap up with you diana peter teal was on uh uh jo rogan a month ago and he was asked about alien like half the conversation was about aliens and he cited your work which was fascinating uh and he said that uh aliens are not only probably angels and demons they have to be angels and demons because of the dual use nature of tech and the forcing function nature of tech and so So the Pazolka literal thing I'd come to is the aliens, it's not that they might be demons or angels.

They must be demons or angels if you have faster than light travel. And both of those seem pretty crazy to me. And so if you have warp drive technology as a delivery mechanism for a payload like a nuclear weapon, you can't defend against that. And I find it really interesting. You talk about St. Francis of Assisi seeing what was probably a craft or an orb. a seraphim. And the last thing he writes in his diary is the Greek letter tau, which means conversion. Yeah. And so it was like this forcing function conversion. And so in the world in which, you know, aliens, which are being, you know, at least in the form of UFOs, seen at record

levels now statistically, or, you know, as far as the data goes, is the veil falling? You know, the word apocalypse and its original Greek means the unveiling. Are we seeing these things at a greater preponderance because we're living in the apocalypse? And what does that mean as far as how we should live our own lives? Yeah, do you think we're living in a apocalypse? I think that there is an unveiling going on. And I think this is a great, amazing time. So yes, I think so.

All right. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Jesse. I'm here with Diana Walsh, Pesilke. We just had an amazing talk with Colonel Carl Nell. And it's funny in our first conversation, you brought up this concept of emergence. and this idea that you would get kind of interdisciplinary intersections between experts in various fields, which the UFO phenomenon kind of brings together because you can go at it with so many angles.

And I thought it was a really great conversation between a guy who in a kind of a nuts and bolts, you know, very hard-headed fashion looked through a bunch of classified material, came out of that experience on the UAP Task Force saying, I think UFOs are real and trying to drive a lot of this forward through legislature and other means. And then a religious studies professor who had no interest in UFOs and was just objectively kind of looking at religious as a phenomena, not even looking at it as some underlying metaphysical truth, bumping into the UFO phenomena.

So what did you think about that talk? I'm really impressed with his knowledge. So not only is he excellent at nuts and bolts and looking at the technical aspects of UAP UFOs, But he knows the whole history of religions back to Egyptology. And he's able to, in a sense, do what I do and what Jacques Valet did, right, which was look at the historical record and find evidence of NHI, UAP, you know, whatever you want to say about it, angels, as they have been termed. So, yeah, I had a really great time talking with him. And I think that you also added a lot.

to it because you know both sides. Well, do what I can. I appreciate both of you gracing us with your presence. And before our conversation, Peter Thiel, who's kind of, you know, helping host this event, did a really interesting talk on the Antichrist. So he's been focusing on the Antichrist. And he's been talking about it as, you know, in history, you know, how has the Antichrist been represented?

When we think about the Antichrist, how best to conceal being the Antichrist? Well, that is to talk about it a lot and basically to push this idea that there's an apocalypse, okay, and that we are, you know, we need to save ourselves and do good, okay? And of course, everybody's going to agree with that. And that's a great veneer. And then he reminds, he reminded the audience that that's, of course, how the Antichrist presents as the one that is, you know, giving the solution. And so I thought that was really interesting. What did you think about that? I thought so, too. He cites Thessalonians peace and safety being the

slogan of the Antichrist. I think you look at a lot of evil that's done in today's world without getting too specific, depending on which side of the aisle you're on, but it's on both sides. And I think you have a lot of today's evil is couched in this veneer of kind of utilitarian effective altruism. World is my sandbox. I'm going to, you know, rearrange the figures, you know, on a global scale and, like, make things sort of work out. And that is sort of a form of evil. It's also outward looking. So it's never inward looking. Like, am I doing that or am I harming people, you know? And you met René Girard. Yeah, yeah. I love his theories. I'm a Gerardian, too. And Gerard always says, you know, to even spot a scapegoat, you need a third party witness.

because nobody thinks that they're doing the scapegoating. And in fact, we're doing scapegoating all day long. And the history of humanity is the history of human violence and that all of us have sort of greedy impulses. And there's obviously violence up until, you know, murder and large-scale war and stuff. But we do small violence to one another all the time through memetic desires and jealousy and that sort of thing.

And we have to look inward. Yeah, that's right. So his professor was Renee Gerard. And I was at Berkeley at the time at the Jesuit School of Theology and Peter was at Stanford. And so while he was taking these classes, I was actually driving to René Gerard's colloquiums to listen to him. And so I had been exposed to his theories when I was an undergraduate at the University of California in Davis. And his book, Violence in the Sacred kind of broke through and really destabilized a lot of different disciplines. plans and a lot of people didn't like it because it was such a giant theory of everything,

right? It was really a theory of everything, like a theory of evil, right? And he, René Gerard was a Catholic, right? And he did attend, I believe it was Latin Mass. And so the Jesuits that I was taking courses from, they didn't want to go themselves because there was something kind of heretical about René Gerard because it was no, they said that there was anything really transcendent about Christ for René Girard, that he looked at evil as like an anthropology, like, you know, that we were, you know, we, there was no transcendent or metaphysical evil that he spoke of. I think what's so heretical about Girard is in why he was sort of not accepted both by

religious scholars or by, you know, evolutionary biologists in his time is because he has this sort of theory of everything, you know, this kind of proto-architecture like to religion. And so that's like real heresy. Yes, it absolutely is. And we talked about that earlier in the context of Plato, maybe another person who has this kind of proto-architecture of religion. So we were talking, you know, off-camera before this. You were saying, you know, you interpret Plato maybe slightly differently than a lot of kind of quote-unquote philosophers or scholars. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So, of course, I read Plato, you know, early on as an undergraduate and again as a graduate student. But I really didn't start actually reading Plato until. I encountered the people who believed in UFOs and I saw the ways in which UFOs have been, you know, concealed by our government within this environment where I witnessed harassment firsthand, saw people who were the quote-unquote whistleblowers being harassed. And, you know, it's not

pretty. It's terrible. And I was depressed. So I thought, you know, how do I make sense of this? And so Plato's Republic kept coming back into my head. And Plato, by the way, he asked the question, can there be a just society? And why he asks this is because he's pretty horrified by what happened to his mentor. His mentor was killed by his government, which was Athens. And his, and Socrates was giving it out. But he didn't take it. Instead, he said, I live by the laws of Athens and I'll die by them. And this is just. This is right. Well, Plato didn't buy that, it seems. He has a dialogue between Socrates and Glocon. And they ask the question, can we have a just government? And they go through all these ridiculous scenarios. He's saying that, no, it doesn't look like we can figure out how to have a just government. How do we do it? Well, then he performs it. He does a performative thing at the end of the Republic. And so what does he give us? He gives us two things that we call allegories or metaphors. One is the allegory of the cave. People are, you know, see shadows on the wall. And they think that this. And people are showing them these shadows.

by the way. So we tend not to know, we tend to discount that there are other people that are like, or things that are showing us these shadows and we are thinking that they're reality. And somehow we get out and we ascend out of the cave and we recognize that, wow, most people are completely blinded by this. Okay. So how does this work then? And so then he like throws in basically the first recorded or one of the first recorded NDE's, which is the myth of er, which is about the soldier who dies in battle and has a near-death experience and sees that people actually, you know, live again. They're immortal. They have some kind of soul. And so he tells this story. Well, those are two very strange ways to end this book about the just society. And so when I'd ask my professors, you know, what does this mean? Because I went back to them. And I even asked my friends who are philosophers. So what do you think about this? Ah, it's just a metaphor. It's just an allegory. Well, I don't think it is. So they're, so what then the, The takeaway is a performative thing.

It's nothing that you can say, Jesse, do this and it'll be all right. No, you have to actually do it. What is it? Well, it's basically creating a community of people like the other person. So, you know, it's called a dialectic. And it's a form, it's a mystical conversation, basically, which is really hard for us to wrap our brains around. What does it even mean to have a mystical conversation?

I think that if people are watching this talk, they've had a mystical conversation, right? And you have too. It's like, think of those times when you met that person who's like your best friend. And every time you saw them, the energy would change. You know, and you'd have such an amazing talk. That's what he's talking about. That kind of community, community based on that. Because wouldn't you die for that person? You know, wouldn't you do those things that are noble before that friendship? Okay. So that's the kind of thing that he's giving us. That's amazing. Well, yeah. And I think a lot of Plato readers think of him as fully allegorical. And they don't think there's some metaphysical architecture that he's actually talking about. Like the myth of error, I think, is a great example. So the cave is another example. But in the case of the myth of error, he's talking about this myth where you have an amnesis. You have this idea that there's this primordial soul self that kind of, of has knowledge of all of your incarnations, and then you cross the river of forgetfulness into, you know, an incarnation where you forget your former self. And maybe through kind of a near-death experience or a mystery ritual, which by the way, Plato, we probably now know, went through the L. Eucinian mystery rituals himself. That's right. And so he probably believed this, like to all the

people that think it's just an allegory, you know, then you experience noesis. You regain knowledge of your kind of immortal soul. Do you think that literal reading of Plato is an important kind of overlay that is missing in today's reading? I think that a lot, so, you know, I went through graduate school, and of course, any kind of literalist reading of any of these texts is abhorred. So people are going to say, no, you can't read it literally like that. And I know, okay, okay, so yeah, did you really mean it this way? Well, not necessarily literally. There's a cave, you know, but he meant it in a very real sense. And that's what I'm trying to get at here. And, and yes, there's, you know, this goes against the grain of both liberal and conservative

readings of Plato, right? It's a completely mystical reading here. It goes beyond even, you know, some people read it as this is the subjectivity of, you know, human subjectivity. It goes beyond that because it poses something other than the human itself or himself or herself. So, yeah. So another thing, too, is that the early Christians actually utilize this text. So in, you know, we found now in the 1940s, we found a lot of libraries of the early Christians and we got an insight into what, you know, influenced them. Well, the allegory of the cave in Plato's Republic influenced them.

You know, so they found something very transcendent, and very Jesus-like, right, in these texts. So it's a lineage, you see. I didn't know that. Yeah. Wow. What's, are there examples of kind of connections between early Christianity? And I guess Martin Luther King, I think, wrote an essay about the pagan continuity hypothesis. Yeah.

And so, you know, there's this idea that even the Last Supper might have been kind of a mystery ritual of sort. Elaine Pagelz also writes about that. That's right. So we're learning, so a lot of people think that Christianity's set and it doesn't change, right? Well, archaeology is showing us, a material culture is showing us so many things that we are learning about the early Christians. And also, I would suggest that the Greek Orthodox Church really does actually know about this connection between Socrates and the Greeks, you know, the Greek, Socratic philosophers, basically, and this lineage that goes directly into Christianity, early Christianity. it's a Hellenized Judaism, right? So it's a Judaism that's completely infused with Greek thought. Like you look at the Apostle Paul, all of the Greek, all of the scriptures of Christianity are Greek, are written in Greek. Okay. So yes, this makes sense. Wasn't Paul supposedly, according to some scholars, kind of a Kabbalist too? Like he was in the Merkaba kind of, you know, Ezekiel tradition?

It looks like it. I mean, you know, I'm not a New Testament. So I don't want to go out on limb and say for sure, you know, that was. But yeah, if you look at his, you know, his conversion, it looks similar to Merkaba, you know. And I do have friends who are New Testament scholars and they won't come. They don't feel comfortable coming out and saying these things, but they'll tell me in secret. They'll say, yeah, yeah, you know, Jesus too, by the way. And I'm like, really, why don't you write a book about that? No.

He goes up on the cloud. That's right. Yeah. It's amazing how much some of these kind of esoteric religious practices actually comport. Like if you look at the Heckelot, the palaces of Jewish Kabbalism or whatever, you have seven of these palaces. Well, in Egypt, you had the Arete, you know, the seven. And then, you know, in Rosicrucianism, you know, he goes up through seven levels and, you know, he has to leave a garment behind on each level. At each level, you always encounter kind of, you know, these different beings.

You know, some are good, some are bad, but they sort of, you know, are all testing you. That's right. It's very fascinating. So we're talking about this tradition, this Merkaba tradition that seemingly talks about a form of community, if not a government, a form of community, a ecclesia, right? That's the early church Greek term for the community, right? that's based on these connections with Merkaba seraphim, what have you, these kinds of knowledge bearers, messengers of God, right? And so how would that look today? That's a great question.

I don't know. How would it look today, Diana? Well, I think that we're seeing it now. I think we're seeing the very beginnings of this type of recognition that they're, you know. With UFOs. Yeah, that's what I think's going on. Yeah. And there's, you know, this recognition that we're not alone, okay?

And I mean, that was the premise for a lot of those schools was that we're not alone, but you have to get right with these things. Yeah. Okay. So that's what, that's the whole idea was they were looking inward. Yeah. So they weren't looking outward. So the whole tradition, like Paul, he changes his name because, you know, think about

his conversion. It was, he was Saul. And he was living a life of violence of all things, right? He was very violent. Now, why he was violent, I don't know, but he was persecuting and wanting Christians to die. And then he has this Murkaba situation that he seemed we didn't cultivate, right? It happened just spontaneously to him, it seems. You know, at least from his position, he didn't call it into his life.

And then it changes him. He changes his name. And then he works for these communities. He gives his life to the formation of these communities. Own it all. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly Big Board Buckslot Machine by Aristocrat Gaming, Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is giving one person a $1.6 million dream package.

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that seems kind of dangerous from like a, you know, institutional power structure perspective. Like often these mystics are misinterpreted or clamped down on by human power structures. And then even in a more primordial sense or whatever, there's the parable of the four rabbis who all try to go up into the heavens and like, you know, one goes mad to die and like, I might be watching this. But like one makes it, right? And so it's this like extremely straight and narrow treacherous path. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. So like why should anybody take that path? No, I totally agree. I'm in agreement with that. Yeah. But when students do come through my classes, you know, I teach basic, you know, survey of religions, you know, kind of thing. And when we were in the Christianity section, I'm in the South, so there are lots of Christians in my class.

You know, they go to church. And so I say, why do you go to church? And they don't know, right? And I say, you know, what about this part of the Bible where, you know, is talking about this angel or that angel and, you know, this and that. And they're like, well, that doesn't happen anymore, right? And so I think that they're, you know, so I try to get them to interrogate, you know, their own religion. Like, what does it say? Why are you Christian, you know, or why are you Jewish? Like, why are you doing this? You know, is it just because this is your, the cultural tradition, your heritage? Because it could be. And that's fair. enough, okay? But what I really liked about Carl Nell's talk at the Salt conference was that he basically did the same thing. And I thought it was really interesting. But he did the same thing of, well, you know, you're talking, you're talking to people who are religious and all of a sudden they're confronted with the reality that what they think is this metaphysical thing is

actually real. Well, that's going to be a shock for them. Are you implying that perhaps we as a society may not be ready for disclosure? I guess I would. draw an analogy, though, for people believe in a certain faith tradition, whatever that faith tradition is, and hold to that and subscribe to that in a very serious and devout way. And, you know, sort of pose the question, even for folks of that ilk, and I would count myself as one, if you're confronted with the reality of your religious belief system, like the reality of the metaphysical, an angel, a messenger from God, what have you, that's a person. That's going to be a C-state change in your way of dealing with reality, right, even though you already

believe it. Right. So it's one thing to believe and it's another to know. And I think in this context, this phenomenon has an analogous, the potential for an analogous effect, both on the individual and on society. And I was actually shocked that he said it. And I was like, wow, that's kind of what I say to students, but never in this, never so bluntly, like, never like, no, this is a reality. Because I can't really say that. Maybe it's reality. Maybe it's not a reality. But there's a whole tradition of it.

Yeah. Well, it's still like one of these things where believing this stuff, you know, it can either sort of burn you or save you. Like, it feels like even angels themselves are kind of misinterpreted as these like cherubic friendly beings, you know, in the modern day. And in fact, if you look historically at angel interactions that, you know, a lot of which you write about, these can be extremely. violent and they can, you know, deal with you very harshly, and they can set you on a path that

might be sort of more morally pure. They might excavate sort of bad things that leave you and, you know, you become better or whatever, but it can be extremely painful in the process. Yes, I think so. So one of the things that was shocking to me when I first started doing this was the reality that the government was looking into it as real, whereas I was looking into it as truly historical, metaphorical, not real, okay? then I recognized that a lot of people felt like it was their duty to contact these things, right? And that, again, that brought me to another level of like, what a bad idea, you know, because historically, well, here's an example. So when I first started corresponding with aerospace people, people in aerospace corporations and things like that, they wanted the data.

Like they wanted to know what did European Catholic see when they saw an angel or a demon or something like that? Did they have any effects? Like what kind of effects did they have on their bodies and things like that? And did they have any, did they report like other types of effects? Well, yeah, all that data is there. So, you know, I started to look at it. And I met Gary Nolan. So I met Gary Nolan pretty early on probably about 2014.

And he shared with me his own research. So he had been recruited, just as I was being recruited. Just as I was being recruited, he was also recruited to work with people who were, you know, in the program, I guess you could call it, or I don't know how to really discuss it. You know, he was, the government was looking into UAPs. And he was a person who could help. Okay, so they recruited him. And I got to see some of the research that he was doing. And some of it had to do with the effects that it had on people. And they were like radiation burns and things like that. So looking through the historical record, I saw that indeed there were cases where people reported being hurt, you know, in this way. So yeah, so it's not the best idea then to just decide that this is something you're going to undertake. And I never propose that, by the way. I always say learn about it, but don't engage in doing it. Like I propose for people if they're interested.

If they actually have their own religious tradition, check it out. Go back to it and look at it again. So if it's Judaism, go back to it. There's a rich heritage. Buddhism, same thing. Go back to it. There's a rich heritage. My religion, Catholicism, go back to it. There's a rich heritage there. So I think that's probably the best way to start looking at it. And it's so fascinating that contemporary aerospace, you know, people are reaching out to you as well as, you know, people from NASA. It does feel like we're on the precipice of kind of this. new age where a lot of this stuff seems to be coming out because the conventional history of a lot of these programs in companies are just, you know, chemical combustion, nuts and bolts, you know, it's all kind of this materialist reductionist science. But in fact, I think when you speak to a lot of people at these organizations, they're extremely open-minded. And it's almost like

science cleaved off in like the 50s or 60s and hit a cul-de-sac in kind of academia. And And then aerospace just kept going. But it's this, also, you have this religious valence on top of it as well, where, like, the early NASA missions had, you know, Horace and Osiris. And it was like, I mean, you told me in our last interview, right? It was like Greek and Latin, you know, on symbology. Latin. First century Latin.

First century Latin. That's right. The empire. The empire. Yeah, that's such a great question. So first, I don't know. Yeah. Okay, nobody would ever give me a straight answer. Yeah. But I did ask. Do you think there's somebody in charge who was like, yeah, like, I know that the, like, Greeks had it right and you have to sort of deal with these NHI in order to get to space and like, this is the program? Or do you think it was some

emergent thing that, like, they were kind of softly in touch? Maybe that's an unanswerable question. I don't know. I believe that, so my own opinion about this is just my opinion. after looking and talking to people that are, you know, the people that are doing it, actually, you know, doing. Okay, so they would tell me that this was a way to pay homage to the sponsors. They call them the sponsors. And, you know, I'd ask, do they read Latin, you know, kind of thing? Like, really? And they would say, absolutely.

I think that it's a large tradition that goes unacknowledged in our history. And do you think it's sort of hermetically passed? Oh, for sure. Absolutely it is. Yes. But that's fascinating because that's sort of tying today's space program to like maybe, you know, hermetically sealed, you know, Egyptian, you know, traditions. Like, like, how far back does this? Yeah.

I know. I mean, it's definitely, it's not a Christianized veneer. So if you go to the Russian Cosmist tradition, which is a similar tradition, you know, where they believe in, you know, like Constantine Schikovsky believed. in H.I and that he was, you know, he believed in this and he wrote books about it, and he's the father of Russian rocketry. They're Christian. They have kind of a Christian overlay to this or framework, but, you know, we have Jack Parsons, definitely not a Christian, but then you do have the same, you know, you have the impetus that stays there. It's not as weird as Jack Parsons, but it's weird enough. It's definitely not Christian. It seems to be Greco-Roman, you know,

with the recognition that there are these deities, right? You know, and does it go back to Egypt? I don't know. I don't know. You know, I am not an insider. So I don't have an inside track. I just can spot the myth that's being called a myth, but it's actually real. That they're like, you know, they are doing this intentionally.

Well, I think that's kind of this myth in disclosure overall. Because like both of us are on the outside. but we've like poked, you know, we've poked around. Like, we have, like, a decent mental map that's probably, like, better than just the average person who's, like, not really, you know, interested in this stuff, right? And, like, my serious inclination now that was not the case a few years ago is that there's, like, no one in charge. Or that, like, if it is, there is something in charge, it's this, like, loosely distributed weird

thing that's, like, emerging and has, like a mind of its own. And maybe there are some people kind of tapped in the deeper layers of reality, but it's certainly not commensurate with some clear clearance system or classification system within the government. Yeah. That's okay. So I'm fully on board with that theory. And, you know, because you can't, we can't prove it, can we? Yeah. But it's just a theory.

But I'll give you some examples. But we've met enough people who like people on the outside are like, that's the deep state architect of the godfather of the UFO stuff. And we meet them and they're like, well, they don't know a lot of stuff that this other person knows. That's right. There's like a lot of that going on. Yeah, a lot of it. So that made me actually think about the oral tradition of it because I was around enough people to know that they figured out their missions, not from asking people or having someone tell them. They had to figure it out on their own. And that process was hard for them. And they didn't even know that they got it right until they got an award for it like two years. years later.

Yeah. So they didn't know. And they would also tell me things like, well, people were on this mission, but they never knew until they got the, you know, the card or not the card, the patch. Yeah. Until they got the patch or whatnot or they, you know, they figured it out. And so I was beginning to see it as when I have friends that are indigenous. And they occasionally tell me a couple of things, you know, about their worldview and

the way that they're like Australian Aboriginal culture works, right? And apparently there's like a very succinct and transmissible oral tradition that is really old. Like, you know, what, 30,000 years old or something like that? And it has to do with, you know, NIH and things like that. And so I begin to see our space program like that, like, wow, that's how it works. There's an oral tradition that's transmitted, but it's not transmitted through this memo. You know, so the declassified memos, what do they really mean, you know, when there's this type of tradition? Yeah, well, all the memos seem like they're kind of groping in the dark, and they don't really know what these things are. I'm a big fan of this mid-century inventor Townsend Brown, who we talked about earlier with Carl Nell,

and he says it's like, you know, fish in the water. They don't know, you know, they just see the holes in the ships over top, but they have no idea what those ships are transporting or why they're there and that really, you know, feels like where we're at. But you bring up this idea of a patch. What do you mean by that? Okay, so the patches. So in the space force or whatever we call it today, you know, where people are on missions to send things up into space satellites or what have you, they work on these, these, and they get these patches. Okay. So a lot of people know about these patches. They have a Roman god on them or something like that. And they usually have have the Latin that describes the mission. But in a way that's really opaque and even making fun

of outsiders, right? So this is the mission. You could even, you know, go online and see a lot of those patches. And I've known someone to have like at least 150 of these patches. Whoa. Yeah. So this is a person whose whole life has been doing this work. Wow. Well, I think about the person you pseudonymously named Tyler in your book, and he's this NASA mission controller. It seems like he's using kind of consciousness protocols to make the launch's work. He's this very interesting figure.

But then he goes to the Vatican with you, and he has this conversion experience, and it's almost as if what he looks into in the Vatican archives confirms that the work that he's been doing is somehow mystical and way more like globally, meaningful than just this nuts and bolts like we're putting satellites in space sort of thing. Yeah, that was really an amazing experience for me to witness the conversion that he went through. We started at the Vatican looking at the records of Joseph of Copertino and a bi-locating sister, Maria Vagrida.

And we also had exposure to Peter Gumpel, who had been a papal advisor, who was a Jesuit, talked a lot about the Templars, by the way. Interesting. Yeah. And do you remember what he said about the Templars? I do. Okay. Moving on.

So that's where it started. So he started to re-examine his life, I guess. And I could see that process because I've seen it before. And I had a feeling that when we got to Castle Gandalfo at the Vatican Observatory, where he was going to meet astrophysicist monks. And, you know, those people that live like that, they have, you know, that's their mission. And their mission is fused. It fuses religion and science.

I knew that that would be his place and that he would probably convert at that point. And that was right. So then we left the Vatican and we went there. And then he spent a lot of time in the archives looking at Copernicus and Kepler and, you know, originals, by the way. and also looking at electromagnetism. It's amazing. And things like that. And I just like couldn't get them out of the archive, just like glued to these books.

It's incredible. And the other thing I wanted to follow up on from our first interview is you said this remarkable thing. And I kind of like just, I don't know, I ignored it. Bad interviewer in my case or something. Because you said this really profound thing. You said that when you went with Tyler to the Vatican Observatory, they knew who he was before. having gone there. And that tripped me out when I was watching it over in the

edit because I was like, why does the Vatican Observatory, they're obviously very well respected and well staffed when it comes to real astronomy. But how do they know who a NASA mission controller from the U.S. is? Yeah, not only that, but when we were there, we just happened to correspond with a trip that all these young scientists from ESA, so the European Space Agency, they were all there too. And so

brother Guy, who's the director, Guy Consolmagno, he was giving them, you know, a really awesome tour and talk and everything. So he introduced us. And so he introduced me and they were like, hmm, you know, kind of cool, clap, clap, clap. And they introduced Tyler with his real name. And the whole place just erupted into just, yes, like that. And that was a recognition for me that Americans kind of don't know what's going on, but they did. Yeah, they were to them, he was a hero. Yeah, it was really, really cool. That's incredible. The other interesting connection with Tyler is he met Chris Bloodsoe, I think, or before you. That's right. Yes, he did. And they had a relationship. And I think Ryan Bloodso, who's Chris's son, said that Tyler had

told Chris that he was part of a group with Townsend Brown, who I just mentioned. So Townsend Brown's this fascinating mid-century inventor who I think, you know, made more discoveries in the world of gravity than meet the eye, you know, might have tied gravity and electromagnetism together. And that has implications for time as well, because if you can shift gravity at all, you can shift time and general relativity. And he would talk in his private life constantly about time travel. And so what I found just so fascinating is Tyler tells the blood soes, that he was involved with a group that was based in NASA and the Bahamas. And Townsend Brown was the president of this group, and time travel technology was involved.

And I would totally discount that and think, that's probably wrong. If I didn't know so much about Townsend Brown, and I know he spent a ton of time in NASA and the Bahamas. And with a very interesting kind of cast of characters. Well, you know, that's so fascinating because when I knew Tyler, he was always talking about time travel. And yeah, whenever a new movie about time travel would come out, he would go see it. Like the adjustment bureau. Yeah. Oh, he loved it.

Yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. So, I mean, wow. That's amazing. It seems like we both know. So you're kind of like the person who talks about Brown, right? And then he's an invisible where he was until you, right?

And then when I met Tyler, that's what I thought. I thought more people have to know about this person because he's an invisible, but he impacts so much of our history and we don't even know it. That's the way, yes. Yeah. I felt the same way I felt like it was my duty or something because he died penniless. And I'm convinced his work made it into the B2 stealth bomber. Wow. Like premieres, you know, stealth bomber.

Yeah. And he was paid off by this finance here at Northrop Grumman, like a ridiculously low sum of money for the rest of his life. And then not even that. I mean, I think he literally, like, unified the field experimentally. And so, like, everybody knows who, even Tesla got ripped off, but people know who he is and he has a great car company named after him today. Nobody knew who this guy was. And he created, he was such a patriot. He was such an American patriot, you know, he was Cold War era.

And so these discoveries obviously have implications for, you know, weaponry and all sorts of other things. And so he created tons of disinfo about his own work to throw people off the trail. And so he kind of died penniless in obscurity on Catalina Island. Wow. So you felt the same duty with Tyler. I don't know what I felt. I felt a sense that you have, like a sense of injustice, you know, that we want the world to be transparent.

Let me give you something. This can be something that I think is relevant. During the time that I knew Tyler, there were other people like him, Invisibles. Like I called them the Invisibles, right? And one of them had passed away. And this is a person whose family didn't even know what they did. So there was a big sense of sadness on their part because they couldn't eulogize him correctly, they felt, because they did not know. And so Tyler actually asked me if I would help them write the eulogy.

So I did. I wrote the eulogy. And during the time period of writing it was so emotional because I was like, wow, you know, how do I say this? So I helped them. I helped them write it. And they really, they reached out to me afterwards and they were, it was consoling to them. Yeah. Because they, because someone outside the family recognized their pain.

That's so amazing. Wow. Yeah. Well, do you think that these invisibles are sort of outing themselves right now? It seems like some, yeah, it seems like they're done with this kind of life, right? And they want to. But, but again, you know, we talked about the reasons why I had to go back and look back at Plato's Republic, which was a text written through trauma, the trauma of a government

killing Socrates, the mentor of Plato, like a teacher who was a wisdom teacher. He wasn't doing anybody any harm. So in that context, maybe the whistleblowers should be, should maintain secrecy. I don't know. I think that it's not a great outlook to tell you the truth. I mean, in the long run it is, but there's a spot that's bad. that's really bad. And most of the time is bad, right? So Christians are told, you know, the world's not for you. This place is not for you. I mean, really, that's what Christianity suggests. And in a sense,

that's what Plato's Republic suggests, too. Because is everybody going to do the dialectic with each other and kind of do? No, no. Nobody cares to do it. But so do you see what I'm saying? There are groups of people who do. Yeah. You know, does it have to be for everyone? No. There's no sort of universal fate. and one needs to sort of save themselves. But do that in a sort of maybe communal way. I think you have to do it in a communal way. You do think you have to do it. I mean, even Buddha said so, right?

He said that there were three keys to Buddhism. One is that you can do it. The other one is the Dharma, which is the teaching. And the teaching could be anything, right? It doesn't have to be a scripture. It could be an event that teaches. You could be having kids, by the way. You know, it's a really great way to like learn about life and yourself.

So there's the Dharma. But of course there's this sanga. And you can only do it in a group because you have each other to help each other. That's fascinating. Well, I think that's the perfect note to end on. Diane, I really appreciate your time. And it's been a great day, kind of a marathon. And yeah, I'm excited to see what happens in both in the UFO world,

but also in the world at large because we're in very, there's a Confucian proverb. You know, it's like better to live in interesting times than good times or something. That's right. Well, we definitely live in interesting things. Yeah, we can rationalize our world by saying that. Well, anyway, thanks for talking with me, Jesse. It's always fun to talk with you. It was a blast. Yeah. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and all birds continue to trust and use them.

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