American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - The Man Involved In Every American Conspiracy | Danny Sheehan

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Starting point is 00:00:37 It was so good I actually personally signed up with the discount code in the offer. Today, my interview guest is Danny Sheehan. Danny might have a better understanding of what actually happened in just about every major 20th century American conspiracy than anyone I've met. And I know a lot of conspiratorial people. Shout out Alex Jones. So a lot of times think anthrax might have come from Mars. What? If you want to know who really killed JFK, watch this interview.

Starting point is 00:01:04 It's absolutely crazy. Do you think that the CIA killed JFK? I do know who did kill him. Oswald could not have gotten off the number of shots. This interview is an endless wellspring of mind-blowing facts from Danny. That the craft have built into it some kind of an AI capacity to respond telepathically to the control of the pilot. That's the key to it all. From American industrialists and financiers secretly funding.

Starting point is 00:01:29 the Nazis before World War II. So that they wanted Hitler to establish this kind of fascist government, the economic theory of which is you place all the instrumentalities of the government at the disposal of the interests of the private corporations. And the formation of the CIA as an extension of the great Gilded Age families. Because the Central Intelligence Agency was the brainchild of the people at Brown Brothers Harriman. Danny even sketches a photo of a UFO that he saw first hand in a classified facility.

Starting point is 00:01:59 in Washington while reviewing the Blue Book files for Jimmy Carter. And finally, if you want a true understanding of the major players involved in the Watergate scandal, look no further than this interview. Danny's comprehensive knowledge of core American conspiracies is partly due to his involvement in like half of them as an attorney. I was asked to be the attorney or Elron Hubbard. I could be given access to every single document anywhere in the world in the internal files of the Church of Scientology. I'm not kidding. He was actually personally involved in the Watergate case,

Starting point is 00:02:33 the Pentagon Papers, Karen Silkwood, and has personally represented UFO whistleblower Lou Elizondo, Harvard Psychiatry Department Head, and legendary UFO researcher John Mack, and the notorious Dr. Stephen Greer. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and be prepared to stay up all night integrating your new worldview after hearing from the man at the center of every American conspiracy, Daniel P. Sheehan.

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Starting point is 00:04:25 I'm here with my new friend, Danny Sheehan, who knows probably more about it. every American conspiracy than anybody I know, partly because you were involved in half of them as a public investigator and kind of people's advocate, whether it was Watergate or Karen Silkwood, now you represent a lot of the UFO whistleblowers, Stephen Greer, Lou Elizondo, John Mack, before that, who was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department and studied alien abductions for the last 10 years of his career. So it's an honor to have you, and I'm excited to have, I think we're going to have a pretty crazy conversation. Terrific.

Starting point is 00:05:00 Why don't we start actually with UFOs? I think they're sort of very in the zeitgeist right now, but I think a lot of people in the UFO disclosure world feel very frustrated because last year you have David Grush from the National Geospatial Agency coming out, blowing the whistle. And literally a year ago, August of 23, saying in front of Congress that we've had... July 26th. July 26th. 26, that's right. Okay, good, that's amazing, good memory, saying that we have had a legacy reverse engineering programs.

Starting point is 00:05:37 We've had crash retrievals of UFOs. We have them in our possession, you know, in various aerospace warehouses. Do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft? Biologics came with some of these recoveries, yeah. Were they, I guess, human or non-human biologics? Non-human, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program. And it's a sort of bombshell claim, and he says that he's brought forward 40 first-hand witnesses. People have worked on the program to the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community, Monheim. And yet nothing's, you know, not a lot has happened since.

Starting point is 00:06:14 And I'm friends with Grush, and I do trust him. And I think there's a lot going on there behind the scenes. But, yeah, what's your take overall and where we're at? There's a lot going on behind the scenes, is the answer. And one of the things that people who've worked in Washington, D.C. for 20 years or more, realize that the public hearings that take place and the Congress are kind of dog and pony shows. And that, you know, they're semi-scripted as a rule. There's a decision made on high as to what's going to get said publicly and what isn't,

Starting point is 00:06:52 what questions are going to get asked and what aren't. And so that there's a bit of theater involved, more than a bit of theater involved. What's going on in the background is the real deal-making. And the challenge in Washington, D.C., among many others, is that everything is a deal. Everything is a negotiation. So if the Republican Party proposes $10 billion for a particular program, the Democratic Party proposes $8 million, you know, billion dollars for the same program, you know ahead of time it's going to come out to

Starting point is 00:07:28 nine billion because it's not a matter of principle, it's not a matter of you know what the program needs, it's a question of the kind of false dialectic that's going on. So you have to get used to that to begin with. And now we've come into the scene with the UFO phenomenon and that there have been a number of passes at this in the in the history. But what's happened is since the one that everybody he knows about is the December 17th of 2017, the front page story in the New York Times. Lou Elizondo and Chris Mellon, you know, and Chris Mellon, very importantly, was the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, both under the Clinton administration and under

Starting point is 00:08:15 the Bush administration. So he's kind of a bipartisan, you know, Mellon, a family guy. And and Lou Elizondo was involved in the program that the Pentagon had, a secret program, above top secret, the real elements of the program, where they were attempting to develop a weapon system, an advanced weapon system, using the technology that they'd recovered from UFO craft. And the thing that people don't realize, you know, there's this big hubbub, you know, with the front page story in the New York Times, and everybody's saying,

Starting point is 00:08:55 oh, here's two amazing whistleblowers that've come out of the shadows, and they've come forward, and they've made this extraordinary set of revelations about the existence of this secret program. And it turns out the whole thing was authorized. I mean, that the United States Defense Department Office of Pre-Publication Review and Security

Starting point is 00:09:15 had cleared all of those videos to be shown and had okayed the New York Times. to publish them. And so there's this whole backstory going on that there's a pretense of kind of a insurrectionist kind of whistleblower kind of group coming forward to reveal this information and challenge the deep secrets of the state. But in fact, there's decisions being made deeper in to reveal some of this. There have to be.

Starting point is 00:09:46 And there also have to, it has to be this sort of limited form of disclosure that's, these people are sort of coordinating because the videos, the three videos, you know, whether it's go fast or or gimbal or Nimitz, all these videos are not high quality. They're not high resolution. They're nowhere near what they've got. It's only one sensor. And then they say, they say, you know, we have a lot better stuff, you know. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:09 And so it's clearly almost like a roar shock test like or conditioning or something. It's like how are people going to sort of react and then maybe we'll go a little farther in a couple of years and then maybe we'll go even farther. Well, you have to be careful because you can start. speculating about what's going on there in the background. I don't know. It's hard. Well, what I've done, I got contacted by Lou Elizondo himself right after this happened. Well, for the context for the audience, if you don't know anything about UFOs, Lou Elizondo ran an A-TIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012. He also was involved in a lot of

Starting point is 00:10:44 interesting kind of counterintel and recon for the U.S. and was at Guantanamo Bay at one point. I think He was deployed in Iraq. And, yeah, I've been to his place in Wyoming. He's very interesting guy. And in 2017, he came out as part of this New York Times revelation. That's right. He was the first kind of whistleblower to say, I ran this program. It was actually under Senator Harry Reid, who was interested in UFOs.

Starting point is 00:11:06 They had appropriated $22 million. Yep. Harry Reid, Ted Stevens from Alaska. And Dan Inouye. And Dan Inouye from Hawaii. That's right. And they're all studying, you know, UFOs, a lot of which took place under Bigelow and on Skinwalker Ranch. So, okay, Lou Elizondo, approach you.

Starting point is 00:11:22 So now you've blown out the whole audience. Nobody knows what we're talking about. I'm the same autistic, compulsory, you know, attention to detail that you do. Yeah, well, the bottom line is that what's happened is that for some reason, which we can explore, but for some reason, there's been a decision that was made, you know, in 2017, varying to 2017, to come forward to begin a process. of trying to establish control, literally, over the disclosure of the UFO information. And it actually generated an extraordinary piece of legislation that the United States Senate approved. That was a 64-page bill that set up this complex process of undertaking a controlled disclosure.

Starting point is 00:12:18 and actually formulating a controlled disclosure campaign to go over a seven-year period to start rolling out information to the public into the world, therefore, about what it is that the United States government knew about the UFO phenomenon and about some vaguely identified non-human intelligence. And what you're talking about now is the Schumer amendment to the forward-looking year 2020. for NDAA National Defense Authorization Act. So it was the defense budget every year. That's the one.

Starting point is 00:12:54 And it was this amendment and it talks about non-human intelligence and the government declaring eminent domain over non-human craft that's in possession of these private aerospace companies. And it ends up kind of dying on the vine because of Mike Johnson. Well, not really, though. But that's the impression that, again, people have. Or it got diluted. It got passed, but in a very...

Starting point is 00:13:16 Well, what happened is that, one of the most important aspects of the bill did get passed. And that is ordering, here's the Congress of the United States, both the Senate and House, signed by the president, ordering all six of the United States military services, the Army, Air Force, Navy, you know, the Space Force, all of them, all of them, and all 18 of the United States intelligence agencies.

Starting point is 00:13:45 There's a lot more than just the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency and the NSA. There's 18 of them, right? And then there's 32 United States Defense Department agencies. All of them were ordered by Congress and the president to take 300 days to gather together all, every single piece of information that they had about the UFO phenomenon

Starting point is 00:14:09 and about any non-human intelligence that was understood to be responsible for the UFO phenomenon and gather it all together, put it into deep, digital format with an index so that it's recoverable and searchable and have it ready by October 20th of 2024 to be turned over. The Senate bill said immediately to the National Archives. That got changed in the House, but only in a minor way in which they said they were to turn it over as soon as possible after having it compiled. But that whole process was extraordinarily important. And it was a key portion of the bill that the Senate passed. And that got passed by Congress. That is the law

Starting point is 00:14:55 right now. So that whole process is going on right now. So the bottom line is that piece got passed. You know, the big thing in the Senate bill that did not get passed was the creation of an independent panel. There was a board of review that the Senate had proposed that would be an independent board of review that got to look through all of this information and decide how much of it is going to be made public. Okay. And they put in a provision that the president of the United States could personally postpone

Starting point is 00:15:30 the public revelation of any piece of information that the board chose to make public. But that was a big piece that was cut out. They didn't, the, the House didn't agree to allow an independent panel to review all of this information and decide how much is going to be made public. So that the information has to be gathered together and made available in the National Archives, but then it doesn't necessarily have to go anywhere. That's where we are right now. But the Senate, the Senate Intelligence Committee people in the House Intelligence Committee people,

Starting point is 00:16:06 we'll get to see it. And that's a key thing. You know, to get the Congress briefed in on what it is that the executive branch has been doing all of these years since the last 80 years, basically. It goes back to basically January 1st of 1945 is the actual operative date in the statute. Every piece of information, every phone call, every memo, every internal study, every report of a UFO citing, every single piece of information

Starting point is 00:16:37 that they have, has to be put into this compendent. So that's happening? That's happening right now. That's amazing. And will that be public or that was going to be... That's the question. As of right now, the operative order of the Senate was that it had to be turned over

Starting point is 00:16:53 immediately on October 20th to the National Archives and be made available to the members of the Intelligence Committee. The House has changed that language to be made available as soon as possible, which is a wiggle phrase. You know, the question is how quickly are they going to turn it over? But they have to have it compiled by October 20th.

Starting point is 00:17:14 So that's the law right now. And a lot of people, even in the UFO community, just think, oh, the law got gutted, it got made. Oh, that's fascinating. But this is extraordinarily important. That's really important. But another very important part of the law is the idea that government is going to declare eminent domain over UFOs, the actual crafts that these aerospace companies have in their possession. Well, they have the right to do it if they choose to. Yeah. And but that got...

Starting point is 00:17:41 It is automatic. But that got gutted. That is no longer part of the bill. And my understanding of the behind the scenes, what might have happened is Mike Turner, who is on the... He's the chair of this House Intelligence Committee. Chair of the House Intelligence Committee, but also represents Dayton, Ohio, which is where Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is. That is right. All the the UFO rumors are centered around Wright-Patterson Air Force Base of them holding kind of craft. And his top three donors are, I think, Lockheed, you know, I don't want to mess up the other two, but two other big aerospace companies. And, you know, he works through Mike Johnson to kind of take that out of Schumer. That's right. And so I find that interesting. Where do you think a company

Starting point is 00:18:23 like Lockheed Martin actually see, like how do you think they see the UFO thing? Because They see it as a profit-making potential profit. There's no doubt about how to see it. Well, Ben Rich, who's the president of Skunk Works, their most secretive division used to call UFO's unfunded opportunities. And then in 2016, 2017, you know, they're working with Tom DeLong, who's the Blink 182 frontman. And you have Rob Weiss, who is, you know, Ben Rich's successor at Skunk Works. And he emails between him and Tom DeLong that were revealed through WikiLeaks, where it's clear that Lockheed wants to, like, talk more about the UFO, you know, phenomena, but then they work through a guy like Mike Turner later,

Starting point is 00:19:05 you know, last year, to kill this bill. So that feels a little schizophrenic. They sort of want to do it on their own terms or how do they? They just, they want to get, they want to get Congress to know enough about it, which they don't yet, to agree to set up a law that authorizes them to get patent rights. That's what they want. They want to get patent rights to the, uh, to the, technology so that the United States government for the next thousand years when it wants to have access to to any of the technology of the UFOs for superluminal flight or anti-gravity stuff is going to have to license it from from the private company and pay them a ton of money for it i mean it's just absolutely you know it's just avarice and greed you know got it so that makes sense so they want like a

Starting point is 00:19:53 broader public knowledge or surface area on the topic but they don't want any of their IP take out of the company. That's right. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. They want to make as much money as possible on it. And here we have an event taking place of the world getting ready to be made aware of the fact. There's this humongous other civilization around us in our galaxy. What's the evidence that it's extraterrestrial and not some time traveler?

Starting point is 00:20:24 The fact that people have been face to face with them. and had telepathic communications. Sure, but for everyone that says they're from Zeta reticuli, they also say they're from the future, and they're also super deceptive and say all sorts of other crazy stuff. Those are people in the UFO community who say all that. They kind of make up stuff, you know, but the fact of the matter is just as plain as day.

Starting point is 00:20:49 No, but I mean, if you look at the Edgar Mitchell database, any of the databases around this stuff, I actually think it's split. Like, I don't think it's clear that they're from another planet. In fact, there's one hominid species on Earth that's sentient, upright by pedal, that has advanced technology, and it's us. And there are 20 billion Earth-like planets in the Milky Way galaxy, but they're over a trillion non-Earth-like planets. And we're seeing a thing that looks like us. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:17 They're hominid. So the likelihood of evolutionary convergence on a totally foreign planet is just super, super slim. And so the Occam's Razor explanation would actually be that there's something emanating from, they're sort of related to mankind. And they could be interstellar. They could be a different timeline interacting with us. I just think we have to widen the aperture of possibilities. Oh, yeah, no, no. I mean, but not to the point of just obfuscating.

Starting point is 00:21:45 Yeah, obvious. Sure. You know. Yeah, there's a thing. There's a phenomena. Yeah. But I do think it's called the phenomena for a reason because it's sort of really hard to classify. Well, it's because the conversation that you're talking about now has assiduously excluded all the evidence of face-to-face contact that people have had.

Starting point is 00:22:04 I mean, there are thousands of people who've had face-to-face contact in telepathic communications with the actual occupants of the craft, which there's this huge effort to kind of pretend that isn't true. Like that isn't true because there aren't enough government-circled people. in scientific community people who've affirmed it yet. Well, that's a good segue into the first UFO-related person he represented is John Mack. That's right. And John Mack was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department. And I think he, through his friend Bud Hopkins, his childhood friend, right, started to see all these cases, these people who know mental health history. It wasn't even always through hypnotic regressions.

Starting point is 00:22:49 They would just say, I had these experiences where I was abducted by, you know these aliens and he started to take it very seriously and so yeah well what do you think about John Mack and his investigations well I represented him for 10 years and met dozens of people that he have worked with was involved in vetting them to determine which ones were credible and which ones weren't what detailed information they had and have talked to you know several absolutely totally credible witnesses that I could put in front of any American jury. And the jury would be absolutely clear that they were telling them the truth, who have had

Starting point is 00:23:31 direct face-to-face contact with one or more of these extraterrestrial beings. You know, they have them in American underground military bases. They have the beings. They have the beings. They've interviewed the beings. I've talked to people who were there when they were interviewing the beings. Where are the beings? That particular one was at S4.

Starting point is 00:23:55 And Area 51. Outside of Area 50, about 11 miles away. I would totally distrust that, but I have some good friends who are very trustworthy. So they're a couple, and the husband broke the world record for the biggest wave ever surfed in Nazare, Portugal. His name's Garrett McNamara, and her name's Nicole, and they're very good people, and they just would never lie. And they have a friend who worked at Area 51, or might be a friend of a friend, but they met him. And he was totally traumatized. And after having worked there.

Starting point is 00:24:26 Yes. And he said that he was led down into a basement. That's right. And he saw reptilian creatures, and they were speaking English. Well, they were telepathic. They're telepathic. And they talk French to French people. They talk German to German people.

Starting point is 00:24:42 Right. But they're telepathic. But isn't that weird? That's strange, though, right? Strange, yes. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. So, but then, like, if they're that advanced, they're telepathic, they can fly, you know, faster than light, then how the hell do we corral them into underground bases

Starting point is 00:24:58 against their will? Or is it, are they happy to be kept? Well, the, one of the ones that I was, I was talking to the guy who was there when they were interviewing, one of them, it was clear that it was voluntary, that the, the extraterrestrial being was voluntarily talking with them, which was having telepathic communications, or they was being interviewed. They're just kind of hanging out in these spaces? Well, I wouldn't put it that way. What do they want? Why are they there?

Starting point is 00:25:26 What happened, what happened is Albert Stein was this guy's name. He called me on his deathbed. He was dying up in northern Minnesota. Called me and wanted me to come and see him right away because he was dying. And so I flew there and went and met him at the hospice. And he's sitting there with all the tubes in him. and dying and he said look he had to tell somebody about this that he was a he was the united states army uh was assigned as a clerk typist to project blue book uh and that well blue

Starting point is 00:26:02 book had this whole buffaloing operation going on you know telling people that it was swamp gas and you know birds that they had misidentified that there were over 700 actual sightings that they found it absolutely impossible to discount that they couldn't come up with because too many people had seen him. You know, there were too many corroborating witnesses. There was radar tracking and everything. And he was assigned to the group that was investigating those sightings. And he would just sit, and they'd send people out to interview all the people that had seen one of these things.

Starting point is 00:26:37 And then they'd come back and give him their reports and he would type them all up. And he was there for years and got to be close friends with the guy who was the commander of that unit. And the guy came into him after a number of years. They shared certain kind of religious views. He was a commander. And the commander came in and told him that he was going to be going to area 51 and wanted him to come with him as the clerk typist, just to kind of monitor what they were doing. So they went to area 51.

Starting point is 00:27:10 They got taken to S4. Went down a number of flights down at S4. and they came to this area where there was this a big room with a two-way mirror in it, and there was an extraterrestrial being there. He was like, you know, five and a half feet tall, almost six feet tall, had a kind of a light blue jumpsuit on that they'd given him, and he was standing there. And this guy, Albert, wouldn't go near him.

Starting point is 00:27:41 He was just traumatized by the guy. And he said he thought he was demonel. and didn't want to go near him. But his commander went in and was having this telepathic communication going on with him. And so he stayed outside and the people that were there staffing the area, they showed him. They had these card files where they had been interviewing the being voluntarily. And he was answering questions that they have. One of the questions was, you know, where do you come from?

Starting point is 00:28:14 And he said that he was part of a group of beings. They were from different star systems in our galaxy. And that they were part of a team that were going around inside the galaxy, checking on places where life had actually begun on different planets. And they were sort of monitoring what they were doing. And they asked the follow-up question. And they say, well, who's in charge of that? Who is, what kind of, they didn't say it this way,

Starting point is 00:28:48 but what kind of juridical entity, you know, is there that's coordinating this kind of a thing? And he said, well, you people would refer to it as God, but it's very different from what you think. That's what he said. And so they specifically said that they were from different star systems and different planets inside our galaxy. And there he was.

Starting point is 00:29:13 go more into the God thing, how it's different than what he did. That's all that's what he told me. And that he wanted to, he wanted to share that with me. And he said that he didn't believe him. He didn't believe it because he thought he was demonic. And therefore he wasn't ever going to, he never told anybody about this in his life. And he was dying. So he wanted to tell me that this had happened. This is this guy was on his death. Yeah. Really? What's his name? His name is Albert Stein. Albert Stein. He was a, he was a clerk typist, U.S. Army clerk typus. Blue Book. Assigned to Blue Book to this special division of Blue Book that was investigating the 700. That's absolutely insane. Do you have a video of you talking to him? No, that I just,

Starting point is 00:29:57 he just wanted to come, have me come and see him. So I went and sat and talked to him. Do you have, do you have other deathbed confessions like that? No. Okay. No, I have, I have interviews that I've done with people, live people who've had different kind of encounter experience. You know, Well, for example, also, you know, Barbara Lamb? You know, Barbara Lamb? Now. Barbara Lamb is a, was an associate of John Max. Okay.

Starting point is 00:30:22 And she's a professional psychologist. And she had a practice of kind of helping people who had had these kind of traumatic experiences of thinking, at least that they'd had a direct encounter with a landed UFO that was on the ground, that they would have a direct contact experience with the occupants. and most people find that fairly traumatic. Yeah. And so she ended up counseling dozens and dozens of people over a 50-year career. She's like 90 years old.

Starting point is 00:30:54 She just became 90 years old. And she's provided to us her archives of all the recordings of different people that she has had sessions with, right? And so after all these years, 50 years of interviewing. dozens of people who've had this kind of experience. She was kind of longing as she was approaching 90, kind of wishing she'd get to see one. You know, she'd never seen a UFO. She'd never seen a being.

Starting point is 00:31:24 She was kind of lamenting this. And then one afternoon, she said she came in out of her garden into her house. And here was this reptilian guy standing in her living room. You know, just standing right in the middle of her living room. And she was kind of taken aback. But he was giving off really kind of extremely friendly, positive kind of vibes. He wasn't scaring her at all.

Starting point is 00:31:47 You know, but, and she, he came over toward her. And he said, look, you have been wanting to get to see one of us. And here I am. So I'm just wanting to let you know. You've been doing this a long time. And so here I am. And then he turned around and left. Do you have any takes on the UFO thing that very few people agree with you on

Starting point is 00:32:10 or that are really out of left field sounding to the average person or something? All of them are out of left field. Yeah, I mean, in a world where, like, it's actually seen as somewhat conventional to believe in, at least the phenomena itself, do you have any sort of really contrarian takes on how this stuff works? No, what I do believe is that it has an awful lot to do with consciousness. Yeah. They're monitoring us trying to gauge our state of evolution of consciousness. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:48 Because that's a very big deal to them. Yeah. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. You know, they use it to drive their craft, to navigate. they telepathically communicate, you know, that this whole thing of the level of consciousness that we're at is really important to them. Do you think legacy programs have made any sort of

Starting point is 00:33:22 progress on this stuff? It's kind of a branch office of it, which is the remote viewing stuff that help put off in the Targ and those guys have been involved in. You think that's still in effect and... Oh, yeah. Oh, there's no doubt about that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's really sophisticated stuff. I mean, really sophisticated stuff. What gives you conviction there? I mean, obviously it pops up in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon that they're studying it, you know, as part of atyp and ASAP or whatever, but like that to me is small fish, you know, it's not a lot of money. It's a big deal.

Starting point is 00:33:54 And that, you know, when you know what they accomplished in that program, which they're lying about to everybody, say, oh, well, you know, it didn't get very far. They couldn't, they kind of shut it down. So what do you think they actually accomplish? Well, I'll give you an example. Yeah. Because I've read the whole file on it. Or you're just talking about like Joseph McMonigal?

Starting point is 00:34:14 No, I'm talking about Pat Price. Okay. What happened with Pat Price again? Pat Price was such an accomplished remote viewer. Yeah. That they actually kept, he got to a point where they, this one particular thing. And the reason I saw this, parenthetically, is that I was asked to be the attorney for Elron Hubbard. You were?

Starting point is 00:34:40 In the Church of Scientology. No way. So how would you connect Scientology and remote viewing? I mean, I know how put off was a Scientologist for some time. How put off was. And so was Pat Price and so was Ingo Swan. We're high-level clears of the Church of Scientology. The FBI and the Justice Department in New York subpoenaed the top 10 people in the Church of Scientology in New York

Starting point is 00:35:02 and ordered them to come in front of a grand jury. And they were going to be interrogating them in front of the grand jury. They called me again. And I went up to New York because I'm admitted to me. the Southern District and I got an injunction shutting them down so they couldn't do that because it was totally unconstitutional again and so they were so sort of in-emured of me that they talked with Ron Hubbard and Ron Hubbard wanted to have me be the lawyer for them you know with him and his wife Susan you know against the IRS that whole

Starting point is 00:35:30 thing they were doing so I said that look I wouldn't even meet with Ron Hubbard unless there was a condition precedent that I could be given access to every single document anywhere in the world in the internal files of the Church of Scientology. I figured that was a real non-starter, right? Yeah, of course. And within a week they came back and said, it's a deal. No way. What do you want to see?

Starting point is 00:35:52 So you could query anybody's e-meter results? Yeah, anything. I could get anything I wanted. And so they flew me down to Florida and the big blue cube they've got down there, this big huge blue building. And so I go in and there's the head of the Guardian's office. U.S. Guardians office and the international head of the Guardians, you know, out of the U.K. And they say, so what do you want to see?

Starting point is 00:36:19 And I said, well, first, what I want to see is the file you got on me. And the American guy said, no, why? No, we've got, I don't know. And I said, excuse me. I said, wait, you think I fell off some melon wagon somewhere? I said, you know, you're going to have me to be Elron Hubbard's turning. You don't have any file on me at all? and the international guy says,

Starting point is 00:36:40 go get him the file. So they bring me the file. How deep was it? How much stuff did they have? Well, they had, you know, pictures of me. I was a Jesuit candidate. I was at the headquarters. You know, they were following me around. They showed me in different restaurants, you know,

Starting point is 00:36:54 and meeting with people, you know, Mark Lane and some of the other guys. So Mark Lane, he was like Kennedy assassination investigation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I rushed to judgment. He was the author of that. You know, so, you know, they had all these kind of things. And so I said, okay, good.

Starting point is 00:37:08 just wanted to make sure that it was accurate. And so the international guy says, and he said, okay, so what else do you want to see? I said, I want to see the three most sensitive files in the entire world, according to you, as the head of the Guardian's office. And he just went, oh, fuck, he said. I said, so either you get him or not.

Starting point is 00:37:28 So he gets up and he's gone and Rebels is around, comes back, and he ends up laying one of the files in front of me. And I started looking at it. it and it was all reports by Ingo Swan. Ingo Swan was filing reports with the head guardian office in the UK about the entire internal operations of the Office of Naval Intelligence, remote viewing program that they were doing. He was just giving him all the information.

Starting point is 00:37:55 So he was a spy or something? Yeah. He was a spy for the Church of Scientology. For the Church of Scientology. Over and against the Office of Naval Intelligence. Why would he do that? Because he was a high level clear. That was his.

Starting point is 00:38:07 loyalty group. He was loyal to them prior to... That's right. That's right. Over and above. Because I always thought Put-off was looking into that stuff

Starting point is 00:38:18 because he was like an NSA guy before he was Scientology guy. So I thought Put-off was just like tasked to like looking into this you know, very you know, paragonal intelligence organization

Starting point is 00:38:32 that is Scientology. That's seen as a threat. And so, you know, get put off in there. No. No. No. I mean the Church of Scientology, you're not aware of it, that their highest principle in the Church of Scientology is all to do with UFOs.

Starting point is 00:38:47 Really? Yeah. They believe that there's a major confrontation going on between the human-like people from the Pleiades over and against the reptilians from Zeta-Riticuli. And that there's a major confrontation going on over which of them is going to actually assert. major relations with our planet. Do you agree with that world view? No, I don't. But Swan was like fully in with the Scientologist and was giving them information on the Office of Naval Intelligence?

Starting point is 00:39:19 All of it. And so you're also saying that there's a remote viewing program that was deeper than Stargate, because that wasn't Office of Naval Intelligence. That was the DIA after CIA. Yeah, no, this was a program. And Pat Price, I'll give you some idea how deep this goes. Pat Price, you know, they had the file, Ingo Swan had the file that Pat Price, had gotten so good at remote viewing that they assigned him a task of they gave him the exact

Starting point is 00:39:42 longitude and latitude down to the minute and second location and he was assigned an artist so that he didn't have to do these hen scratches trying to show it but he was and he was saying you know I so what's there so there's this major building here and there's big big fence up there with razor wire on the top of it and everything and his facilitator was was uh was uh was uh Russell Targ. And so Russell was saying, okay, now can you get inside the fence? Can you see anything inside the fence? And he goes, yeah, okay, all right, yeah, I can see inside the fence.

Starting point is 00:40:17 There's just a snowman's land there. Can you get to the front door of this place? And he said, all right, he said, okay, I got it. Yeah, okay, I'm in front of the front door. They said, can you go inside the building? He said, let me see here. Okay, yeah, yeah, I can see inside the building here. He said, so what do you see?

Starting point is 00:40:36 This is this big long hallway. There's some doors on both sides. And Russell said, now go down to the third door on the left. He said, okay. Can you go into the room? Yeah, I can go into the room. So what do you see? Well, there's a big desk there and chairs and stuff.

Starting point is 00:40:54 There's a big file cabinet over in the right corner over here. Go over to the file cabinet. It goes over the file cabinet. It's the second drawer, first file. Read it to me. And he did. What was it? Well, that's not the point.

Starting point is 00:41:10 The point is that he did it. And he can do it. It turns out it's an American facility. It's a top CIA security facility. Yeah, but that's insane then. So anybody with remote viewing skills can get the nuclear codes? Not anybody, but Pat Price could. The best.

Starting point is 00:41:26 So that's Pat Price, right? And in the same file, it points out that Pat Price had actually evolved to the point where they could take a full photograph. of a boomer class Russian submarine, nuclear submarine, and show it to him and say, where is it right now? And he would give him right down to the exact longitude and latitude, down to the minute and second of exactly where that is. And he visualized the whole thing and told him exactly where it was, but there was a huge UFO right over the top of the water where that thing was. and it was tracking it and monitoring it. And he had it in the file.

Starting point is 00:42:08 I'm going, whoa. I said, this is pretty wild. And then I said, okay. So what else are you got? You know, he says, well, here. And I said, show me the second file. And he showed me the second file. And it was, again, from Ingo Swan.

Starting point is 00:42:29 It was a deep inside report from Ingo Swan. that they had taken Pat Price in the program up to southern Canada, south central Canada, just north of the state of Michigan. And he was in, they brought him to this little facility. It was like this little domed little building. And they had these big huge dishes on top, these communication dishes on top. And they brought him in, and they set him down, and they put this helmet on him. and they had him think a particular message.

Starting point is 00:43:04 And they turned all the antenna down to the northern peninsula of Michigan, that little section that's in there, and had him be telepathically projecting, you know, when it comes time for you to file your national, your U.S. income tax forms next year, file them in this little post office box down this little town down in West Virginia. and 85% of the people did it next year. No way.

Starting point is 00:43:36 Absolutely way. That's insane. Do you keep saying that? So you're saying that you're saying that you're saying that you're saying that Scientology had some sort of mass mind control technique. There wasn't the Church of Scientology. What was it? This was the program.

Starting point is 00:43:49 That was the program. The opposite of naval intelligence. This was the program. But that's like the implications of that are crazy. No, they're profound. Yeah. Not quite crazy. it's crazy for the average.

Starting point is 00:44:00 Do you think that there is a part of our government that interacts systematically with this other life form? Like if you watch the movie Contact, you know, Jody Foster walks into the, you know, this plane. And it's almost like the implication is this guy who's been like kind of tracking her, but he's part of this strata of the world that's just very elite. And he kind of interfaces with a multi-billionaire guy. Do you think that that is the case in our world? I put it a little bit differently. I have no doubt whatsoever.

Starting point is 00:44:36 No doubt whatsoever. Zero doubt that there's an element inside our government structures that is part of the intelligence community as part of the military that have direct knowledge about the existence of these extraterrestrial beings that are here on the planet. But are they systematically in touch with them?

Starting point is 00:45:02 Like, do we have treaties or agreements? That's a question of degree now. The question then would be is that in light of the fact that they know that they're here, that it would be almost impossible to believe that they hadn't made efforts to have some kind of communication with them. Sure. They aren't going to just let them sit there. Would you take that a step farther, though, and say that we've made agreements?

Starting point is 00:45:25 Well, you have to take it one. at a time, that I think that they clearly would have made the effort to have communication with them. So the next question you have to ask is, is it reasonable to believe that the beings would have communicated with them at all? There does seem to be some sort of a tacit understanding that they have about being able to coexist in some way, whereby the United States government isn't going to just run out and say, oh, everybody, there's beings from another system, you know, star system here on our plane.

Starting point is 00:46:02 You know, so they obviously have got some sort of protocol established here where they're not going to be revealing it and the beings themselves are not just going to land in Central Park and tell everybody. Why do you think the UFO stuff needs to come out? Is there a forcing function? Because I go back and forth myself where, you know, I think actually people who know me well are surprised that I'm as skeptical as I am, even though, like, I do all these interviews or whatever,

Starting point is 00:46:32 where it just feels like a lot of the thinking is really lazy and poor. You know, we talked earlier about the example of, like, you know, there are just so many siops and stuff. I was sitting in the UFO hearing, and I was just like, these people don't know anything. Like, honestly, I had two thoughts simultaneously. One is I'm so moved that this is happening. This is amazing.

Starting point is 00:46:52 This is a watershed moment. And then on the other hand, if you wanted to pull off a sciop on these people, on like the government itself, on the civilian government, it would be easy. Yeah. Because they have no idea. You know, they're getting spoon fed all sorts of stuff. I actually was with a friend yesterday who told me, and I'll keep him anonymous, but he's a prominent professor at a pretty well-respected university who looks at this stuff kind of behind the scenes, the UFO stuff. Yeah. And he was talking about evidence given to a congressional staffer.

Starting point is 00:47:25 The congressional staffer gave it to him and some of his hardcore ufologist friends. And they were like, oh, this is a hoax from 30 years ago. And the staffer went pale in the face because he was so sure that, you know, he was given this stuff in a classified setting in a skiff as if it was real. Yeah. And so this is like kind of crazy. So you got your finger right on it right now, Jesse, is that the level of non-competitive, on the part of all human beings, all organizations, you know, is more than their image they

Starting point is 00:47:58 project. Yes. You know, that they've got a whole marketing thing of, you know, here's who we are, how effective we are, how perfect we are, et cetera. But if you really become more and more familiar with the details of it, you really realize that there are all kinds of vulnerabilities that that organization had. The thing that actually makes me think there's a there, there's a there, is there like a lot but pretty serious people involved.

Starting point is 00:48:21 I've become decently close with Carl Nell. I consider Grush, a really good friend at this point. Sure. And it's like, these guys are pretty hardcore guys. They're very knowledgeable. And it's like a big waste of human resources if it's just a sci-off. And so the question is, is there some sort of forcing function that is causing the program itself to allow some of these defectors out?

Starting point is 00:48:45 Because they realize this thing is bursting at the scene. and they need to get in front of it or something. Good start. This is a good start. Yeah, well, what do you think? Because my belief is, like, I take it face value and fully trust David Grush when he says that he sort of stumbled upon this stuff. And then where I think people are maybe a little naive,

Starting point is 00:49:05 and I kind of hinted at this in my interview with Grush, is like, whatever the defection is from the internal program has to be somewhat coordinated. These people have no immunity because they haven't come out. out. And so, like, the idea that they don't have some authoritative auspice under which they're operating, you know, they'd all be dead if they weren't. And so there's somebody somewhat in charge in whatever programs that do exist, you know, has, they've said, you can, you can come out to this degree. That would be my mental model. Control disclosure. That's the key to it all.

Starting point is 00:49:42 And so, and then the question is, are we just seeing the tip of the iceberg and the tip of the iceberg looks nothing like the bottom of the iceberg, or does the tip of the iceberg resemble the bottom of the iceberg? So we're getting a snapshot of what we knew maybe in the late 40s or early 50s, and we're getting some sense of greater ontological truth, and it's just, you know, kind of,

Starting point is 00:50:03 we're working our way down into some core truth. I can see all these little three-by-five cards going up on the wall, you know, that you're kind of laying them out here. Here's the possibilities, there's this, and it's all true. You've got to get them all up in front of you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:16 And all the things that you're saying are things that merit exploration. You know, and some of them are internally and self-referentially consistent. Some of them aren't. Yeah. You know, so that you can drop some of them down into different baskets that are consistent with each other. Yeah. That's how you go about doing this.

Starting point is 00:50:32 Yeah. You know, and that obviously I've thought about all these things. Yeah. You know, and representing Lou and in talking with Carl and talking with David and, you know, in discussing these things with them. But I consistently refuse to get a security clearance. I will not do that because then whatever I know about, they're going to try to say I must have gotten it through the security clearance. And I can't tell anybody.

Starting point is 00:50:57 Right. You know, so I'm not going to do that. Yeah. And I know more than a lot of them do. You're a Harvard trained psychiatrist or a professor of psychiatry at Harvard, to be exact. I admire John McA lot. He seemed like a very earnest, good guy. Yeah, you know.

Starting point is 00:51:12 What do you think his mission was at the end of his life? Do you think it was just to kind of destigmatize things for kind of the victims or abductees in these cases? Or was it to spread some sort of new worldview that he had? Well, he had these two different missions. He was running the peer group, the Project for Extraordinary Experience Research, in that I was legal counsel for the group. That was where I got to meet lots of experiencers and help vet those people. and John and I had both decided, more or less at my suggestion, actually, as it turns out, to try to train them. If they're going to get repeatedly abducted, you know, why don't we train them to do halotropic breathing and just stay calm when it starts to happen?

Starting point is 00:51:56 And then question the ET people. And we'll give you a sets of questions to get information from them so that we can start getting direct line, have like a diplomatic reach out to these people. Do they get anything interesting? No, what it was is that she, a study. Karen. She was furious at the UFO people because she'd been abducted and then when after she'd been returned and couldn't remember exactly what happened. She found that she was pregnant and she hadn't been with anybody for like over a year. She couldn't understand what was going on and she was pregnant went all the way through to the end of the first

Starting point is 00:52:34 trimester and she was going to the obstetrician and getting she couldn't figure out what was going on and then she gets abducted again and she's not pregnant anymore and she was just furious about this about what they were doing with her so whenever they would show up again she would actually throw things at them she would like throw lamps at them and you know kick them and and throw things at them and she was outraged at these guys right and she was one of the people that John was interviewing. She came to work with John. So we agreed she's a good candidate to kind of get her trained to get her to calm down and do all that. And we did that. And she, the next time it started happening, she used to say her, like the hair would kind of start

Starting point is 00:53:23 to stand up on her arms and she could get this weird feeling that it was getting ready to happen again so she could tell. And so she started doing the holotropic breathing. And so these three little dudes show up, you know, in her living room. They brought her onto the craft, you know, totally conscious now about it. And they have her, have to take off all of her clothes and get in this pool, this kind of like pool filled with this kind of gelatin kind of weird aquacolored gelatin stuff. And she'd get in and she had to breathe it in and fill her lungs up with it and stay under there for a while.

Starting point is 00:53:53 And it was a very weird experience. And then they bring her to this other place. They took her off the craft and brought her to because she couldn't, she didn't see the environment. She didn't see what was going on outdoors. and there was this little hybrid, like two-year-old girl, you know, kind of stringy hair and kind of big eyes. But she knew instantaneously that that was her daughter. You know, the critique everybody has of the UFO thing is they say it's not scientific because it's inherently ephemeral.

Starting point is 00:54:22 It's not repeatable. I disagree. They say there are no patterns. That's not true. There are patterns. The two patterns that I have noticed are one is people who are in heightened states of consciousness or are engaging. in specific protocols or whatever. Not loving your AT&T or T-R-T mobile bill.

Starting point is 00:54:39 Yeah, we've been hearing that a lot. Good news. Bring your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to Verizon and we'll give you a better deal. So get away from that unfortunate phone bill and get to Verizon. Run, ride, canoe. Whatever it takes, we'll be here.

Starting point is 00:54:51 Bring your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal on the best network. A better deal. No surprises. That's Verizon. Best Network based on Route Metrics,

Starting point is 00:55:00 best overall mobile network performance U.S. second half 2025. All rights reserved. It must provide a recent consumer mobile bill the name of the person who gave me the deal, additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply. Or the nuclear connection. You have 170 ICBM security personnel, radar operators, people who work at nuclear bases across the United States, who have to be the picture of mental health.

Starting point is 00:55:21 In fact, many of them are on the PRP program, the personal reliability program, where they have to report if they're on ibuprofen. Yes. Because they're guarding the crown jewels of the United States defense. Yeah. They hit the wrong button. It's not good for us. And they claim to have consistently see anomalous objects in the sky. Sure.

Starting point is 00:55:38 Around their nuclear bases. In fact, there's a really great book called The UFOs and Nukes by a guy named Robert Hastings where he chronicles all of this stuff. He's a super hard-headed, you know, detail-oriented guy. Yeah. And there was even a case as late as 2010, right after he retired in 2008, at F.E. Warren in Wyoming, where there was an outage for an hour, and Wired Magazine wrote it up. And they're like, why is it? There's an outage at a nuclear base. Like that's a big deal in and of itself.

Starting point is 00:56:05 Hastings back channeled with the missile ears there. And they're all like, yeah, there was a tick-tac shaped object, oblong object flying in the sky. That caused the outage. And time and time again, you hear of all of these cases. And those guys' careers have been hit because of reporting this. And the Air Force Office of Special Investigations continuously shows up and kind of makes their life a living hell after they experienced this. So anyways, to the people that say this isn't sort of a repeatable. thing. It's not true. It's not true. It's just that they're ignorant. Yeah. You know, I mean,

Starting point is 00:56:38 the only thing worse than being ignorant is being ignorant and then arrogant about it. Yes. You know, and that's the way a lot of the people are. Yeah. And so that what I've said is I've just ignored that. You know, I say, you know, if a person is ignorant, you don't have to beat up on them over it. They're just ignorant. And you don't have to be insulting to them because if they're ignorant, they don't know it. And so they think you're wrong when you accuse them of being ignorant. Yeah. So there's no advantage to that. But there's a whole other level of people in our human family that are not ignorant that follow protocols and try to figure out what's really going on. And that's what we're talking about here. And one of the most important issues that this element

Starting point is 00:57:23 of our human family deal with is the UFO issue. And the reality is that it mixes in with these psychic faculties. And that the, so even though you have something as, dare I say, prosaic as extraterrestrial beings who have, who have been like two billion years more technologically advanced than we are and psychically advanced than we are, you know, who happened to have been figured out how to come and go from our planet, okay, bang, you know. But then there's all this other stuff. There's all this other strange phenomenon that goes on on our planet that exists.

Starting point is 00:58:01 at this other level of insight, such as the capacities of our human family, to have telepathy and teleportation and astral travel and remote viewing and transmutation of matter, you know, and but what we've done is we've culturally riveted on some of these beings in the past, like Jesus or Lao Tzu or the Buddha, and say, wow, look what these individuals have done. And what they do is they build up a complete,

Starting point is 00:58:31 religion around these people. And then a tenet of the religion is that you can't do this. Yeah. This one individual person could do this. Yeah. And therefore there's something super non-human about them. They're transcendental. They're spiritual.

Starting point is 00:58:48 They're from some other domain somewhere. You know, it's not true. What they are is there are mutations of our human family that as this faculty is evolving in our human family, certain individuals have it more fully evolved than others, and they attract attention when this happens. You know, that's what's going on. And as I say, this is another element that really intelligent, thinking, careful people who are not ignorant are interested in. So you're saying it's almost the meta layer or the source code of religion in some ways.

Starting point is 00:59:27 Yes, there's no doubt about that. And it's funny because you know, you probably know Diana Pesulka, who's a religious studies professor at UNC Wilmington. She originally wrote a book called Heaven Can Wait about Catholic Purgatory. And specifically, she was chronicling a lot of divine intervention, quote-unquote, experiences from, you know, brothers, nuns, people associated with the church. Yes. People who were, you know, seen in her eyes as fairly credible witnesses.

Starting point is 00:59:54 And she would actually go back to the Greek and Latin of the translations. and she would consistently find that there was almost a one-to-one match between that and the description of, you know, if you read John Max's abductions, you know, book, it was the same thing. It was like an orb showing, like St. Francis of Assisi, you just sees an orb showing up. Yeah. And, you know, he has radiation damage. And so, you know, maybe we're actually uncovering sort of the source code of a lot of these sort of,

Starting point is 01:00:24 quote-unquote, divine experiences. No, that is true. Do you think that the angels and demons kind of nomenclature that's just been used across civilizations, that might just be it? And the reason I ask is because there was actually, there's a book called Final Events by a guy named Nick Redfern. And he talks about there's this evangelical Christian group that was very embedded in the CIA called the Collins Elite. And they were at Wright Airfield. And they were studying demonic entities.

Starting point is 01:00:54 and they were doing all sorts of weird, Kabbalistic stuff, and they were attracting these sort of, you could say, similar to, you know, the protocols of Eamblicus, like Neoplatonist or Thomas Aquinas' kind of angel hierarchies, these, you know, beings between us and God, which have been believed in for centuries. And they then came out of that study saying,

Starting point is 01:01:17 this stuff is demonic, it's evil. You know, maybe we are actually living in the book of revelations, and this stuff showing up is, you know, greater preponderance is actually really bad, and they started to campaign against it. Well, there are different lenses through which a worldview that you can perceive this thing. And there's no doubt that that is one of them. You know, that is one of the lenses through which they're perceiving this entire operation. Which is that scary?

Starting point is 01:01:44 Are we at the end of history or something? That feels like sort of a paradigm shift. No, it is a paradigm shift. But that doesn't mean you're at the end of history. It means that there's sort of a full, a glottal jump, you know, in consciousness. That's what's happening right now. And it's generating a lot of instability and people are becoming, you know, disconnected to reality and not trusting in facts anymore and speculating wildly and, you know, trying to figure out what's going on.

Starting point is 01:02:13 You know, and the UFO phenomenon is an integral part of that. and the whole relationship of psychic capacities of our human family are directly related to this, you know, and the whole issue of religions, trying to figure out, you know, whether there's some new religion that is a birthing here that relates this. But remember, the religion, the Latin root of religion is relegare, which is like to relink. And ever since the evolution of the intellect in our species of Homo sapiens, the intellectus, the Latin root of intellectus is the ability to distinguish the difference between and so that we've been able to experientially experience the difference between ourselves

Starting point is 01:03:01 and all the rest of our environment and that we've developed an intellect that is able to manipulate that and kind of computerize it and mathematicize it and all of that. primarily to manipulate physical reality around ourselves. Do you think, you know, it almost feels like the most underrated narrative here, it's not as much maybe about the crafts that we're trying to reverse engineer, but it's about the people that seem to attract this phenomena. And so like Betty and Barney Hill is this famous, you know, case in 1961. You know, they see this craft coming.

Starting point is 01:03:37 I think it's in Vermont or New Hampshire. New Hampshire, that's right. And C.D. Jackson, who's the psychological strategy board under Eisenhower, and also runs our psychological warfare program. During the war. During the war. And was the editor-in-chief of Life magazine. There you go.

Starting point is 01:03:58 Henry Luce. Yes. He comes, he goes to New Hampshire and meets with Betty and Barney Hill. And so there's this special interest on the part of the government among the people been contacted. Now you have this guy Chris Bloodso in North Carolina who like you have this guy Jim Semivan. There's a hardcore Intel guy top-ranking CIA official who's you know 20-year intel career and he's why is he showing up at Chris Bloodso's house and asking him what he's you know Chris Bloodso says he's encountered this divine feminine figure that says she's come from the dark

Starting point is 01:04:32 side of the moon. Is Semivand just wasting his time spending time with him? It almost feels like people are the conduit for this like esoteric information and there's a strata of intel that's interested in the people themselves all of that's true like like greer for example you worked with he started doing these c5 protocols and attracting the sort of alien stuff and then you got you have albert stubblebine and john alexander get in touch with him and it's almost like they're trying to recruit him into something like they become very interested in him because he's an attractor of this stuff. You're getting warm now. Okay, so what is all this mean? Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, what it means, what it means is that there's a very definite psychic connection here.

Starting point is 01:05:20 What we as human beings, Homo sapiens, referred to as psychic capacities. You know, telepathy, you know, precognition, remote viewing capacities. There's a whole series of charisms that are, They're basically referred to in the Hindu stuff as Siddhas, you know, which is their function of consciousness, is that clearly our human species is capable of experiences that are non-normal. Yes. They're regular normal people don't have these experiences, or at least they don't realize it. But my first year law school, I had come up from Harvard College, had gone across the street to the law school, and I had heard that Crane Brinton, who was the chairman,

Starting point is 01:06:05 the Department of Intellectual History at Harvard for like 30 years. And he was going to be doing his last lecture. And he said, he got up and he said, you know, I've been asked to lecture on what I think the most important single intellectual insight of our human family is that I've encountered in my 50 years. And he said, and this is easy. He said, he said, I think that all the greatest minds of our human family have come to realize that our human family is right on the brink of its next step in biological evolution. and that we're going to be evolving from Homo sapien, sapien, into the next stage of our biological evolution. And the key factor that is going to differentiate the next species from us

Starting point is 01:06:47 is this evolution of this faculty. There's a faculty like seeing or hearing that is able to directly and immediately experientially access a certain vibrational frequency that exists in the universe, like light or like sound, but that there's an extraordinarily subtle bonding phenomenon that bonds every single ultimately irreducible integer of matter in the entire physical universe into one unified harmonic whole.

Starting point is 01:07:17 And that this is discernible. It's extraordinarily subtle, but there's a faculty that is evolving by means of which we can access this experience. And when has this experience, it's like a crystal set locking into a kind of, of a radio signal and that you lock in to this unitive phenomenon in the universe and it can download all kinds of information to you non-linearly like seeing or hearing he said in that he said

Starting point is 01:07:50 in that this faculty we're at the brink of of moving into this new species he said he said and i think he said he said to us all this is 1968 right this is like may of 1968 and he says and i think that's why so many of you young men here refused to go fight in this war in Vietnam. Ah, wow. That's what he said to us in that lecture. So he's saying, like, you know Pierre de Jardin, like the New... I know Pierre de Jardin, like the new sphere. Yeah, news.

Starting point is 01:08:20 Like the sort of mental sheath around the earth that you can sort of tap into, where the Russian cosmos sort of believed in something similar. Yeah, sort of the Chinese. Interesting. This first thing that Dr. Jen Jo Jing showed me. Dr. Jen Jo Jing, who's head of the Chinese Academy of Social Science, that they've got this faculty in Beijing, 300 of the top professors in all fields that are there for the Politburo.

Starting point is 01:08:46 And I met her that I was chairing for the State of the World Forum, for Gorbachev and for James Baker at the end of the Cold War, that I chaired a thing called the Strategic Initiative to identify the New Paradigm. And I met her in that context. And she invited me to come to China. And as soon as I showed up, the first thing she did is she brought me to the laboratory, showing me all these experiments they were doing with psychic abilities. And they were exploring and trying to figure out what all this was.

Starting point is 01:09:18 And so that this is a very real thing that our human family is going through right now. It's a transition period into a kind of a new paradigm. And the UFO stuff is part of it, you know. Well, aerospace has been very interested in parapsychology, mind over matter for very long time. They've sort of hidden it. But like you have James McDonald, who's the patron of McDonnell Douglas, he had a parapsychology institute in the 60s. You had, I think he was actually pretty close with Bob John, who was the dean of engineering at Princeton, who went on to start the Princeton anomalies, you know, pair. This is extraordinarily important.

Starting point is 01:10:00 It's really important. And people who goffaw at it and poke fun at it and are just not only ignorant, but they're arrogant. I just had a call with, I'll delete this if I'll ask him if I can put this in here, but the head of revolutionary technologies at Skunkworks. I think this is okay to say because he's on record sort of believing in this stuff. But he's head of like the program that, you know, like our most important recon aircrafts just on an objective level come out of. And he believes in all this stuff. I mean, he's, I mean, he, I think is on record.

Starting point is 01:10:32 If he didn't, he shouldn't be in this position. Yeah, totally. No, exactly. If anything can procure an advantage for them, they have to be studying it. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's very interesting, just how interested they are in this sort of mind-over-matter stuff. And it's almost like a cleavage between academia, which shut down, you know, all ideas around parapsychology in the 70s through 90s. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 01:10:56 And then aerospace, where it's like, it's just basic game. theory, you have to, you have to do anything to get an advantage where they, they really went way deeper into parapsychology, and then academia stuck in string theory, which is this stupid abstract math that hasn't gotten us anything, hasn't shipped any product. You're still stuck in the scientific, logical, positivist, materialist worldview. That's right. You know, it's institutionalized at the academy, at the university level. And therefore, you can't, you can't get cutting-edge exploration on the part of some of the better

Starting point is 01:11:27 minds of our family, human family. they won't allow it. Yes. Philosophy, theology, and any of them, you can't go there. Yes. And so that's why you have these other, like that we have a relationship with the New Paradigm Institute, or something called ubiquity, university. They're accredited in Europe, but they can't get accredited here in the United States

Starting point is 01:11:49 because they talk about this stuff. Yeah. And saying, look, we've got to get intelligent minds working on this in some systematic way. It's so absurd. We spend $15 billion on a large Hadrian Collider, and you have the possibility that there's a mind matter interface that kind of our Cartesian dualist ideas are just totally off. And it's like maybe, you know, sub-50 million has been spent on, you know, parapsychology in the last hundred years. Of course you're not going to make progress. I know. And maybe that's by design. I don't quite know.

Starting point is 01:12:24 And there's still, you know, lighting, like rocket fuel. on fire and burning it to shoot it to shoot a rocket up into the and they're spending billions of dollars on that as a front operation you think you think it's a front oh sure you think like SpaceX is a front totally for what for what's really known about what the way that these craft really work right but then are we operating the craft then or when you say it's well no it's interesting that they they obviously ran into a major problem that they weren't able to to pilot the craft because it's consciousness that pilots the craft.

Starting point is 01:13:03 Yeah. Like this hybridization of the person in the craft, which makes sense if you look at a random event generator, you have, you know, basically the mind affecting random kind of quantum mechanical processes like quantum tunneling or radioactive isotope decay. Yeah. So you know, you have this almost like perfect digital coin flip created. You have one in a zero that's showing up on a screen, but it's tied to this perfect random quantum mechanical process and an observer is present and they can statistically

Starting point is 01:13:34 beyond the standard deviation sway it between one and zero and so maybe there's something about the ability to pilot the craft that you know requires a certain level of internal harmony or your contract relating on the point I was making yeah is that they weren't able to fly them yeah they've got them yeah if they can't fly yeah have you ever seen a UFO no have you ever seen photographs you've seen a picture of a UFO photographs where have you seen a picture of a UFO in the classified files of Project Blue Book. You got to go through the files of Blue Book.

Starting point is 01:14:04 So Blue Book for the audience was the Air Force's investigation in UFOs under Astronomer J. Allen Heineck from the 50s and the 60s in the 60s, 52 to 69. And really, you were able to go through, weren't those classified files? They were. How were you able to see them? Were you in a kind of a skiff, a compartmentalized facility? No, it was that they brought them to the basement offices of the Madison building, of the National Archives, you know, back before the building was open. The building had just been finished in the early spring, January of 77.

Starting point is 01:14:50 And I was the special counsel to the study that was being done at the request of President Carter. What was the study? Well, you just have to back up a bit. When President Carter, you remember, had seen a UFO in 1969, I believe it was. With a bunch of other people. A bunch of people, 11 other people. They were standing on the steps of this Lions Club. Although I think that sighting may have been debunked since.

Starting point is 01:15:18 No, it wasn't, no, it hasn't been. Then what he saw, it was only like a thousand yards away. It wasn't like a big star in the sky or any of that weird stuff. It was like a UFO. And he was very specific about it. He talked about it. Yeah, there's an interview where he talks about it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:15:40 And he filed a report about it with the Air Force and stuff with NYCAP at the time. And so that when he was elected in the first week of November of 1977, You know, the first thing he did was he sent for the head of the Central Intelligence Agency to come down to Plains, Georgia, even before he had gone to Washington. So he was still at his home down in Georgia and asked the CIA person had a person to come to brief him on the UFO issue. And it turns out that person was George H.W. Bush, who had been appointed by Joe Ford, who had come in taking over for Nixon when Nixon resigned. over the Watergate thing. There's a rumor that Jimmy Carter saw the UFO files and was shocked by them and tears were very distraught.

Starting point is 01:16:33 It's a rumor. Is that BS? A rumor is the most, it's arisen to that. So when Carter was inaugurated on the 21st of January in 77, one of the first things he did is he contacted Congress and told him that the agency refused to brief him. He didn't want to have a war with the CIA, you know, and spend all that political capital trying to engage with them on this.

Starting point is 01:17:00 And so he asked the Congressional Science and Technology Committee to contact the Congressional Research Service and have them do a special research project for him on what all the information was that our United States government had about the UFO phenomenon and about whether or not there was any connection with extraterrestrial intelligence. He asked both things. And so I ended up being contacted by Dr. Marsha Smith, who was the head of the Science and Technology Division of the Congressional Research Service. And she asked if I would be special counsel to the project.

Starting point is 01:17:45 And I agreed to do that. And there's two or three steps involved here, because I don't want people to get the wrong impression that the reason that she asked me to be special counsel to the investigation was specifically she wanted me to contact the Vatican archives and see as the general counsel for the Jesuit national headquarters in their social ministry office

Starting point is 01:18:09 whether I could get access to the Vatican archives and find out for the Library of Congress and for the president what information they had. And so I changed, checked with my superiors of the Jesuit headquarters and got permission to do that. And so I agreed to be special counsel. So I contacted the Vatican and asked if they would let us give me access to the archives. And they said, no.

Starting point is 01:18:38 So I was kind of taken aback by that. And so I wrote them a second letter with the authority of the Jesuit headquarters. And it re-explained it in more detail of what we were doing and why we were doing it. And they still said no. And so I contacted Dr. Marshall Smith and told her that it's not going to happen. They won't do it. So I figured that was it. That was my sole role as the special counsel.

Starting point is 01:19:03 But then she called me back a couple of weeks later. And she said, oh, the new Congress that's come in with President Carter, the House of Representatives cut out half of all of the budget for SETI. the search for extraterrestrial intelligence at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. And so she said that she's helping to organize a group of astronauts to go to the key members of Congress at the House of Representatives to advocate putting the full budget back in.

Starting point is 01:19:36 Would you agree to do that? Would you agree to go with them as the legal counsel for the Jesuit headquarters? So I did. I went with Rusty Schwab and a whole bunch of the Schweiger, you know, a bunch of the other folks. and we went around and talked to the Congress people, and they put the money back in.

Starting point is 01:19:54 And so Dr. Marshall Smith called me and said, oh, the scientists at the SETI project are super excited. They're really happy. They're very thankful for you to help on this thing. Would you, they want you to come and give a closed-door seminar to them on the theological implications of contact with an extraterrestrial civilization. So the bottom line is that, that I get asked by Dr. Marshall Smith to go out and do this seminar to the top 50 scientists of SETI.

Starting point is 01:20:28 So I say to where I say, look, if I'm going to go do this, you know, I'd like to really have you get me some access to some of the stuff that you're getting and gathering for the president, you know, that you're putting together so I can be better briefed on, you know, what we're doing here to talk with them. And she said, well, okay, what would you like to have? And I said, oh, I want to have the classified portions of Project Blue Book. And she said, oh, they're not ever going to give that to us. And I said, well, you know, you won't get it unless you ask. I said, here you are doing this for the president. You know, just if you would ask them so I can see them. And she said, well, okay, I'll ask.

Starting point is 01:21:06 And she called me back, like, I don't know, three or four days later or more. And she calls back and she said, well, she's totally surprised that they agreed that I could see them. So I did. You know, I get my suit on. I bring my little lawyer briefcase. I bring the whole line yards and bring my passport and my Washington, D.C. driver's license. I go over to the Madison building. And I would come there on the, it was a Saturday morning, and here are these two suits there,

Starting point is 01:21:32 these big no-neck tough guys kind of suit. You know, they're not Air Force. Those are not Air Force guys. You know, I don't know. They couldn't quite tell who they were, but they looked like SF guys, you know. and so they are kind of gruff and they check my ID out. I showed them the idea and stuff. They said, all right, so they leave me into the hallway.

Starting point is 01:21:53 And they say, okay, you go down the hallway here to your right. Go down there and take the elevator down. I go down to the basement and you'll see them. So I said, all right, so I go down the hallway and I get in the elevator and I start down the elevator. And it's just an instinctive thing I did. I opened up my briefcase and took out a yellow pad. legal pad and close up my briefcase and I put the yellow pad under my arm. And I come down to the basement floor and I get out of the elevator and there's no lights on like in the hallway or anything.

Starting point is 01:22:25 But I could see down the hall, I could see down to the left. I could see a light out of a room with the door open. So down I got down there here, these two other suits, two other guys there, right? And they both check my ID and stuff. And they say, okay, you got to leave the briefcase here, stuff. If you can't go in, you can't take any notes, you can't record anything, you know, but here's the room.

Starting point is 01:22:50 And so I, so I walk in the room, and I say it's like about 20 feet wide and about 12, 15 feet deep. And there are these three cardboard kind of card tables, you know, there in the room. And they had these boxes, little cardboard boxes. They were big, like big shoeboxes like, they're big, bigger than a shoe box,

Starting point is 01:23:12 but they were this kind of pale green with a little tie, little string tie on them. And so, and they had a microfiche machine that was there. And so, so I go and sit down and I take the yellow pet off on there, and I lay it down there. I go over and I open up one of the boxes and they've got, there's a whole bunch of documents with, you know, all kinds of, you know, a letterhead on them and everything. And so I'm saying, look, this is going to take me forever. If I start reading all these things, let me just try to find some photos.

Starting point is 01:23:43 And so I went through this one, then another can of it, and then another, I think maybe the third canister of this stuff. And here are these photos. And there was photos of a, there wasn't any doubt about what it was. It was a crash retrieval of a UFO. You could see that the UFO had crashed into this field. And there was snow on the field. And it had plowed this big gouge all the way through this field. And the dirt was all turned up and stuff.

Starting point is 01:24:11 and the UFO itself was stuck in the side of this big embankment that was covered with snow. But you could tell it was like this earthen embankment. It was stuck in the side of the bank. Do you have any idea where the UFO was? It was just, you took the photo? No, it was snow. And there were Air Force guys all around it. I could tell that's what they were.

Starting point is 01:24:31 And it was winter. And they had these, they had the park is on, like with a little fur around the hood stuff. Do you think there's any chance it was fabricated for you to, should to show you or it would have been ridiculous to go to those lengths to set up some fake picture or something like that i mean it was it was clear it was clear that it was and you you could see the guys taking photographs of it and and there was one like a movie camera they had that they had those weird two canisters on the top like this kind of was an old-timey kind of older version of a movie camera and they were filmed a film

Starting point is 01:25:11 it and you know there were like three or four of the different photos of it from different angles and I could see it in one of the photos I could see that around the bottom of the dome it was a classic saucer like 40 feet wide and it was stuck in the embankment and that I could see around the base of the dome on the saucer this these symbols that were all around the base of the of the dome and I looked at it and I cranked it up again so I could see the symbols. And what I did is I took out the yellow pad and I opened it up, for some reason, just instinctively, I opened it up to the inside cardboard of it and I slid it under the microfiche machine. And I focused it so that I could see the symbols.

Starting point is 01:26:00 And then I traced the symbols exactly verbatim, you know, all the way around the half of the dome that I could see. And I just put them all, I just traced all of them. And I put the, closed up the yellow pad, you know, rolled up the microfiche, put it back in the little canister and put it back in the box and tied the little string on it and put it back. And I said, okay, that's it. I got them. You know? Wow. Did anybody else see it or no? No.

Starting point is 01:26:33 Well, the father, Father Davis saw it. He saw the photo. No, no, he saw the tracings. He saw the tracings. Did you not want to show anybody the photo itself? Well, I didn't have the photo itself. I wasn't anywhere I could get it. You were alone in the room.

Starting point is 01:26:47 I was just alone there. The two guys were outside the door. Okay. And so I had the thing traced. So I put the stuff away. I put the yellow pad under my arm again and I just walked out. Can you sketch the UFO? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:27:04 I'd love to see it. I could sketch the UFO. I can show you exactly what it looked like. Okay. So here's here's the photo. And it's, you know, you can see the field here. And it was so since you could see the plowed, there was this thing plowed right straight through here. This is the dirt with all the dirt all kicked up all along the side of this trench.

Starting point is 01:27:25 And the trench was dug all the way through the field. And the craft itself was like this. And it was stuck in the side of the hill. and the hill came down like this, and it was stuck. Well, it wasn't that tall. It was like up here. And it was stuck there. And around the bottom of the dome on top of here,

Starting point is 01:27:50 there was right like this, around here. There were all of these little symbols. There were these symbols that were here. And they looked like this. And that's what they went all the way around here. Have you spoken to like a symbolical? just since then? Do you have any sense of, you should? I hadn't, what I did is I, I walked out of there,

Starting point is 01:28:25 when I had them, and I walked past these two guys. And they were kind of surprised that I had come out of there so fast. I mean, I've kicked myself a hundred times since then. You know, why didn't stay in there and try to figure out more stuff. So what I did is I, you know, I was kind of freaked out, you know, that we got, well, so I come, I walk out of the place. and I reached on and pick up my briefcase and start just walking away

Starting point is 01:28:52 and these guys and they were kind of surprised that I'd come out of there that fast and so as I started walking down the hall one of them says, hey, hold it, hold it, what do you got there? And I said, oh, this is my briefcase. I just picked up my briefcase. And he said, no, no, no, no, what do you got under your arm

Starting point is 01:29:09 over there? And both of the guys come over to me and they stop me and one snatches the yellow pad way and ruffles through the pages and there's nothing on them of course because i did it on the inside of the cardboard on the back wow uh inside and so they didn't even see it and he just hands it back to me and so i just walk walk away and i kind of go down the hallway and get back into the elevator wow and uh and and it was the elevators going up i over my briefcase and put it back inside and

Starting point is 01:29:41 and uh walk up well you brought up carter's initial interest in UFOs because he saw one And then he goes to George H.W. Bush, and he says, I want to get briefed. So H.W. Bush probably, you know, knew a lot about the whole UFO phenomena. In 2015, 2016, when Jeb Bush, his son is campaigning, you know, against Trump in the Republican primary, George H.W. Bush is, you know, helping him campaign. He's very old at the time. And he's on the stage. He's in a wheelchair. And somebody from the public in a, you know, Q&A session says, what do you know about UFOs?

Starting point is 01:30:14 And he starts going off about how, you know, the American. American public is not ready for the truth on UFOs, which is definitely off script from what he would usually say. And, you know, they just sort of slowly wheel him off the stage and, you know, say he's like, you know, he's not, doesn't have his marbles or whatever. Interesting. Yeah. But what about JFK? You know, there's this document from 2005 that was, it was FOIA in 2005. And by a guy named, I think, Lester, William Lester.

Starting point is 01:30:44 and I've tried to get in touch with this guy multiple times because I want to know whether it's real or fake. It's like another thing, like the Oppenheimer thing, where it's like if Oppenheimer was involved with UFOs, that's this crazy smoking gun that would really change the public consensus. If JFK was looking into UFOs at the end of his life, and we know that, that also would be this really important fact for people to know. And so it's this letter that was void in 2005,

Starting point is 01:31:09 but it's from November 12, 1963, so 10 days before he's shot in Dallas, and it's a letter from him to acting CIA director John McCone, and he's saying, I want all of the data on unknowns. By unknowns, he means UFOs. And he's saying specifically, I'm worried about, you know, the USSR freaking out because, you know, they're seeing these UFOs in their airspace, and they think they're acts of American aggression. Yeah. And so do you think that that letter might have been real? Or, I mean, might have been real, might not have been, I don't know. I do know that in when I was when I was working with Dick Billings, Dick Billings was the chief staff writer for the House Select Committee on Assassinations. And he was one of my

Starting point is 01:32:01 investigators, actually, at the, at the Christic Institute back in Washington. And he and I were investigating the assassination because he was a very, very important guy. He's the guy that got the Zerpruder film down in Dallas. And he was the guy that had, he was the

Starting point is 01:32:24 Life magazine guy for Miami, the Miami office. And he ran the, he ran the Life magazine team that was on the ground in Dallas the day of the assassination. Afterwards, he's the guy that got there. There's a Bruder film.

Starting point is 01:32:41 He knows all about all that stuff. I had just been over on the hill meeting with Tip O'Neill. And also on the Senate side was Claiborne Pell and showing them copies of the complaint that we had drafted. Claiborne Pell, by the way, is super interested in parapsychology and all sorts of crazy stuff. And he was Biden's mentor all throughout his careers. Anyways, keep you.

Starting point is 01:33:11 So the bottom line is I've been over on the hill. I was showing them copies of the complaint that we had prepared. And it filed already down in Miami. Bottom line, I come back to my office, and I walk into the office, 1324 North Capitol Street, you know, just 13 blocks from the Capitol. Walk in. And Patty Austin was my secretary. She says, Danny, there's an older gentleman here waiting to see you. and I said, well, who is it?

Starting point is 01:33:41 She said, I don't know. He didn't give me his name. And I said, well, where is he? And she said, he's up in your office, sitting, waiting for you. And so I said, all right, so I go upstairs. I go into my office, and I walk over, and here's this guy. He looks like he's about 65 years old or something like this. And so I walk over, and I say, hi, I'm Danny Sheehan.

Starting point is 01:34:01 He said, great, it's good to meet you, Mr. Sheen, and never told me what his name was. And so I go back and I get back. behind my desk and I say, okay, what can I do for you? He said, look, you said, I've got a copy of your complaint here. And he pulls out a copy of the complaint, which had been sealed, actually, by Judge James Lawrence King down in Florida, just the previous Friday. And so I was kind of a little bit taken aback that he had it. And he said, he said, now he said, you don't know who I am at all. I said, yeah, I noticed that. And he said, but look, I just want to ask you a few questions.

Starting point is 01:34:40 You don't have to answer me if you don't want, but I think I might be able to help you on this. I said, okay, what? He said, now you've got 29 people listed here as the defendants, and your Iran-Contra, you know, federal criminal racketeering complaint you've got filed against them. He said, who do you think is the most important? And I said, well, a lot of people would think is because Theodore Shackley was the ADC. the associate deputy director for operations of the CIA running covert operations. And he was the immediate boss of the fellow who was the national security advisor for George Bush, senior, who's the vice president.

Starting point is 01:35:23 I said, so that, you know, in sense, that's the guy in whose office they've been meeting the Iran-Contra people. And Phyllis Rodriguez and the guys were. meeting with him. You know, so a lot of people would think that that's the reason I think that he's the most important. And he said, but that's not the, that's not the reason why you think he's the most important? And I said, no, no. He said, well, why do you think he's the most important? I said, because he was the CIA station chief in Miami on November 22nd of 1963. And he said, he said there aren't two men in the world that would have answered that question that way.

Starting point is 01:36:08 He said, my name is Dick Billings. I was the chief staff writer for the House Select Committee on Assassinations. I think I can help you out on this case. And that's how it started. We found out that Kennedy, on June 5th of 1963, and this would be June, July, August, September, like five months earlier, that he had asked him to do. be briefed on the UFO stuff. He wanted all the UFO stuff on June 5th. That was the same day that Bobby Kennedy had been first notified about the existence of the political assassination team that had been put together by Richard Nixon back in 1960 when he was the vice president in the chair of the 5412 committee under Eisenhower. Here is a bulletin from CBS News. In Dallas, Texas,

Starting point is 01:37:00 Three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade in downtown Dallas. Do you think that the CIA killed JFK? Not exactly. Okay. Not exactly. But I do know who did kill him, you know, and I do know that it was an S-Force, it was a 15-man force that was created back in 1960,

Starting point is 01:37:20 actually, by Richard Nixon. And this was the force created to go after Castro? To kill Fidel Castro, Raul Castro, with Che Guevara and five particular commandantes of the new government. And so why did Nixon create this force? To kill Castro. He realized who, well, actually what he did,

Starting point is 01:37:42 strangely enough, is he called Howard Hughes. Was the day that Nelson Rockefeller withdrew from the Michigan state primary in the Republican presidential presidential primary campaign was the day that Richard Nixon knew he was going to be the Republican nominee in 1960. Okay? And he knew that this Kennedy kid whose father, you know, had basically bought him a seat,

Starting point is 01:38:12 you know, in the Congress and that he was this kind of, you know, hollow vehicle, you know. It was, he was going to beat him. And so what he did is picks up the telephone, the security phone, in the 5412 committee of the National Security Council and calls Howard Hughes. because Howard Hughes was a secret consultant to the National Security Council. He had invented the Glomar Explorer to pick up Russian submarines if they fail and fall to the bottom of the ocean. He did the C-5A cargo plane, the big spruce goose, and he was doing two other extremely, extremely sensitive programs. What was he down?

Starting point is 01:38:51 I can't tell you that. But the bottom line is he was close in. Well, he must have been working on UFO stuff, too. Not, no, he was not. He was not? No, no, they hadn't gotten him in on that. He was doing things much more kind of military, kind of prosaic military stuff. So the bottom line is Nixon knew him because of that, because Nixon chaired the 54-12 committee as the vice president under Eisenhower in 1960.

Starting point is 01:39:21 So he chaired that 54-12 committee that's in charge of covert operations. So he knew about him being there. And so he picks up the red phone and calls Howard Hughes and tells Hughes that he wants him to set up an assassination team to kill Fidel Castro and Raul Castro and Che Guevara because they're refusing Nixon's demands being communicated to them that they not have any diplomatic relations with either Russia or China. He was setting that up as a condition. You know, he was invoking basically the old Monroe doctor. What he did is ask him to set up an assassination team. He asked Howard Hughes to do that. Howard Hughes didn't agree or disagree on the phone. Being smart enough not to trust Nixon is whether he was recording it or not.

Starting point is 01:40:11 And so he didn't say yes or no, but he called in one of his lawyers, Bob Mayhew and assigned it to Mayhew to figure out how we might do this. And so Mayhew goes, they were in Las Vegas, where they were, right? And he goes, and Robert Mayhew goes to see Johnny Roselli. And Johnny Roselli is the bag man at the two casinos that were owned by the mafia.

Starting point is 01:40:36 Right. And his principle is in Chicago. He goes to see him, right? Sam Giancana and says, look, I, so Mayhew goes to Johnny Roselli and says, look, you guys, use guys with the bent noses. You know, you've got your own reason for wanting to get rid of Castro. You know, he closed down all the gambling casinos. He closed down the horror houses. And very importantly, he closed off the heroin trafficking that was coming in through the Golden Triangle.

Starting point is 01:41:09 Okay. And so therefore, you've got your own reasons for wanting to get rid of them. So why don't you guys do that? Nixon's getting set to be president. He wants you to do this. And so he says, well, I can't do it without talking to Giancana, who's my principal. So he goes back to Chicago and talks to Giancana. Giancana says, well, we say, this is Traficanti's territory down there.

Starting point is 01:41:33 He's the down of the mafia in Havana. And even though he fled from Havana on January 1st of 1959 when Castro took over, so he fled and came up to Florida and was camped out in Tampa, setting up his little regime there. And a whole bunch of the other refugees that were Batista people, you know, along with Trafica. because they were partners in the heroin trade. Batista, the dictator. He was the dictator.

Starting point is 01:42:02 He was partners with Santos Traficanti in the heroin operation. And the third guy in the partnership was Paul Hellewell. Paul Hellywell was the head of the C Supply Corporation, SEA Southeast Asia Supply Corporation. He was full-time, full-time Central Intelligence Agency. full-time central intelligence agencies. So this like pre-Iran Contra or something? All pre-Iran Contra, all in 1960. But it was kind of like a precursor in some ways, because were they doing the same thing, using the profits to fund other revolutions? Absolutely. Yeah. And so they said, we can't do this without Traficanti, you know,

Starting point is 01:42:42 being in charge of figuring out what to do about this. So they fly down, you know, Sam Giancana, Johnny Roselli, and Bob Mayhew fly down to Florida. And they have three sets of meetings at the Fontainebleau Hotel. Now, we're getting all of this directly from Traficanti, who turns out to be the client of the firm where I was. What are these Traficanti guys

Starting point is 01:43:06 doing in the Watergate Hotel? Why are they there? So that's how I found out. So Traficandi's telling us all this, so these are the facts of what happened. Yeah. Okay, so the bottom line is that he, after the second meeting,

Starting point is 01:43:18 says, okay, I'm supportive of this in principle, but, you know, I didn't fall off no melon wagon. He said, so I wanted to make sure that this wasn't his term of brain fart. This wasn't some kind of brain fart, you know, of Howard Hughes, or much less Mayhew. You know, I needed to know this was coming directly from Nixon if we were going to do this. And so the next meeting shows up a guy at the third meeting that used the Nome de Guerr, Mr. Ed, and it was Sheffield Edwards, who's the chief of security of the Central Intelligence Agency.

Starting point is 01:43:49 okay so he greenlights the creation of this assassination team designed to kill Castro Fidel Castro Rao Castro and Che Guevara and these other commandantes right and so that that goes into motion they agree to do that and Traficanti figures out okay

Starting point is 01:44:09 who am I gonna put together on this team he's smart so what he does is he picks 15 guys that are all former gunmen from him down in Nevada, who had fled with him up to Florida, who'd now been recruited by the Central Intelligence Agency to form this thing called Operation 40, which is this covert operation against Cuba, burning bridges, lighting fires to their sugar cane fields,

Starting point is 01:44:36 poisoning the shipments of sugar going out of, you're doing everything to try to destroy the economy of that country, because they were in defiance of Nixon because they'd gone ahead and established diplomatic relations with both China and Russia. So he wanted to close down their economy to show that a socialist economy couldn't function. So the bottom line is

Starting point is 01:44:59 they Traficanti contacts guys that have now been hired by the Central Intelligence Agency covertly to participate in Operation 40 in covert operations against Cuba. And he selects 15 of these people, which they call a code name the S-Force. So what happens between the S-Force and Castro. Well, they're trying to figure out how to assassinate Castro. They're trying to figure out all these different ways of doing it. But in the meantime, what happens is Nixon doesn't get elected. And so he doesn't get elected. And in comes Kennedy, you know, and bringing in his brother Bobby is the attorney general, right? And it turns out they don't know anything about this assassination team because it's been set up completely off the shelf like this by Nixon, right? And so that everybody just steps back and lets that.

Starting point is 01:45:48 team keep on going but the Kennedys don't know about it and so that whole operation comes down you know they go through the whole Bay of Pigs thing you know that falls through and Kennedy goes down and apologizes it literally goes down to Miami in the Orange Bowl and gathers together all these hardcore right-wing Cubano refugees and apologizes to them for this and promises them that the free flag of Cuba will fly over the island before the end of his section term. He says that to him, right? And he comes back, and he, even though he told a cruise chef that he was going to stop the covert operations going on against Cuba. He was going to shut down

Starting point is 01:46:31 Operation 40. He wasn't going to do that anymore. You know, Mayacopa, sorry for doing that 40 with an operation called Mangus. And they set it up over at the Miami, on the Miami campus, University of Miami campus in this big hangar that's there, and that Mangus runs there. And the guys that were doing the covert operations against Cuba still included all the guys on the S-Force who had that other hat on. Kennedy's aware of all of this and even directing some of it. How does it end up turning on him? No, Kennedy wasn't aware of it at all.

Starting point is 01:47:06 At all. At all, until June 5th. Okay. Until June 5th of 1963 was when he found out that Walter Sullivan told Bobby, you know, found out about it. And then Bobby tells John, but they didn't know about it until June 5th of 1963. So that thing is going on all that time. And so that the smoke has cleared on the Bay of Pigs problem. But what happens, of course, is you, in 62, in October of 62, is the Cuban missile crisis.

Starting point is 01:47:37 Because Kennedy had lied to Khrushchev about shutting down Operation 40. And it just substituted Operation Mongoos, Nikita Khrushchev is totally pissed off. And so what he does is start... But that's what I mean by Kennedy being aware, is he's aware of Mungus, but he's not aware of the S-Forust. Oh, no, no, no, but he knew about Mungus. Yeah. There's no doubt about that, but he didn't know about the S-Force.

Starting point is 01:47:59 So he doesn't know about the original intention to take out Castro. No, he doesn't know anything about that. Okay, okay? And so the bottom line is that what happens is that Cruz-Chef is so pissed off over the fact that he's been lied to now by Kennedy, you know, that he starts putting missiles into Cuba. Okay? And then when they find out about it in October, this whole thing comes down, which everybody knows about.

Starting point is 01:48:22 And they come to within, you know, a hair's breadth of totally destroying the entire world. And, you know, Curtis LeMay and his guys, you know, are, you know, coming up with Operation Northwoods and all that stuff of trying to figure out how to generate a war, you know, with Russia. So the bottom line is Kennedy has to crush that whole operation to say, look, we've got to, we've got to stop this. This is totally nuts. And so what he does is opens up a line of completely covert communications with Nikita Khrushchev. And he is promising him, look, okay, look, you're right, I lied to you. But look, I'm telling you now, I'm telling you the truth, you and I need to do something about this. We've come just within a minute of destroying the entire planet.

Starting point is 01:49:05 You know, we've got to do something. And what they decided among themselves in an exchange of 18 different letters that went back and forth, completely secretly, outside of the channels of the State Department, outside of the channels of the CIA, that he set up a completely private operation. Kennedy and Krushchev to each other agreed that they were going to each use their respective authority as the executives of those two countries

Starting point is 01:49:30 to start disassembling the nuclear warheads of their entire nuclear arsenals because they were each personally so totally traumatized by what had happened or almost happened. And so that they started getting, ready to do that. And what happened is Ellen Dulles found out about this, who had been the first civilian head of the CIA. Yeah. And who hated Kennedy? Well, yeah, sure he hated Kennedy, you know. Over Bay of Pigs. Hated him to Bay of Pigs, hated because he got fired. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:50:04 But really, more importantly and more sophisticatedly, was totally opposed to the disassembling of the nuclear warheads of the nuclear arsenal. Because they believed that they needed to have that against China. Not against Russian. It's against China. Because they'd already been shown at the reservoir in Korea and at Inchon. The Chinese could put a million men in uniform into the field against you. You couldn't do anything about it.

Starting point is 01:50:36 You couldn't win a traditional land war against China. So they had to have the nuclear missiles. So they viewed Kennedy as a traitor. But he was getting set to disassemble the primary military capacity that the United States had, doing it covertly with the Soviets, i.e. Khrushchev personally. Okay. And they said, that's it. That's curtains. We can't wait.

Starting point is 01:51:01 We can't wait for an election a year from now, a year and a half from now, in November of 64. We've got to get rid of him now. And so what they did is they tasked the S-Force that they knew existed because Dulles knew that they existed, because Dulles was involved in it earlier on. So how does Dulles do that? Because Dulles leaves and joins Brown Brothers Haremont. Yeah, he goes back to Brown Brothers Haremont, where he, in effect, never really left.

Starting point is 01:51:31 Because the Central Intelligence Agency was the brainchild of the people at Brown Brothers Haremont. You know, Robert Lovett, who was one of the senior partners there, is the one who wrote the original memo. to Truman recommending that they create a central intelligence agency and that they have a covert operations capacity, which they put in Section 5412 to authorize them to engage in covert operations. And what would, Brown Brothers-Hareman was just like a normal law firm at the surface? Or what would it? No, Brown Brothers-Hareman wasn't a law firm. Brown-Brothers-Hareman was a collective investment company.

Starting point is 01:52:02 Oh, it was an investment company. That's right. And they had the kind of the richest 25 patrons from the robber barons that were all investors, Common investors and they would come together and decide how they were going to direct their investments together What they did for example after World after World War I This gets a little complicated after World War one In 1918 they had the Versailles Treaty Negotiations yeah it turns out that the Secretary of State under Wilson back in 1918

Starting point is 01:52:35 Was the guy being of Robert Lansing Uh-huh Robert Lansing? Robert Lansing was a guy who was a guy being a Robert Lansing? was the son-in-law of John W. Foster, who was the former Secretary of State back in 1893. He's the grandfather of John Foster Dulles and Alan Dulles. Those are his nephews. And so what he does is when he supervises setting up the Versailles Treaty, he brings in his two nephews as part of the team

Starting point is 01:53:00 that they bring to Versailles. Those are the two guys that drafted the war reparations provisions inside the Treaty of Versailles. This feels like too big of a triple-bank. bank shot or something. Because you also talk about like the Union Bank was like funding there was a need out about that. Yeah yeah. That's just a fact. So do you think that the Versailles was sort of intentionally you know too harsh in a way that like made, you know, like created an auspice for the extremism of Nazism sort of you know. No, it

Starting point is 01:53:31 didn't why no no it started out in a much more prosaic motive. Okay. Because what they did is they said oh look we're imposing the war reparations were of Germany through the exercise of the power of the State Department, supervising the Verasai Treaty. And so they have this major debt now that they owe to all the corporations that they had destroyed their property and the aggressive war and World War I, right? And so what they did then is through the power of his office of Secretary of State, Robert Lansing, appoints Alan Dulles, who is legal counsel for Brown Brothers Harriman to be the lawyer for Germany. And he conducts a negotiation pursuant to which those war reparations will be covered by Brown Brothers Harriman. They're going to extend loans to the German government to pay the war reparations,

Starting point is 01:54:22 and they're going to take a security for those loans stock in all their major military industries. That's really crazy. In 1924, George Herbert Walker leaves Brown Brothers Harriman, sets up the Union Bank of New York, completely capitalized by the guys who are part of Brown Brothers Harriman, and all the 25 investors, they capitalized the bank. They set up a foreign subsidiary up in the Netherlands called the Bank of Shipping and Commerce is run by Fritz Thaisen, and they finance the construction of the international headquarters of the Third Reich. So crazy.

Starting point is 01:54:53 And they start funneling money to Hitler to rise up to become the bulwark against Bolshevism in Europe. And so that they wanted Hitler to establish this kind of fascist government, the economic theory of which is, you place all the instrumentalities of the government at the disposal of the interest of the private corporations. And they will then help, you know, help the major corporations. The corporations will prosper. They'll hire more people. It'll stimulate your economy. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:55:23 You know, and people all the way up into the top agreed with that. That's a great idea. The only issue is. Like Henry Ford and the guys at Brown Brothers Harriman. They thought that's a good idea to do that, right? I think Ford had ideological sympathies as well. That was what they were doing. So that's how, and then when Hitler started coming off the leash,

Starting point is 01:55:42 yep, and deciding that he was not only going to, he's going to nationalize everything, he's going to nationalize everything, he's going to take it all over, and so that ended up getting sort of out of control. They lost control of him. But it's like, this is like a really interesting narrative that the CIA, they're set up by oligopolistic interest. Yes. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:56:01 To be able to set up an economic system that was actually fascinating. That was actually putting the instrumentalities of the government at the disposal of the interests of the corporations Because then the corporations could could deploy for example sending a military expeditionary force down to Nicaragua You know and ousting the democratic elected government all on behalf of who? Yeah, sort of Yankee imperialism. There's a book called the three new deals and it was like Hitler Mussolini and FDR and they were all sort of compared And it was sort of it just shows how sympathetic the US was to Hitler, you know, just after 33 and before 38, between 33 and 38.

Starting point is 01:56:46 The FDR wasn't because they tried to assassinating him. They were planning to overthrow him. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. 1934, Brown Brothers Harriman, the people planned to overthrow the Franklin Roosevelt. Is that true? Oh, yeah, absolutely true. And so what was the plan there? They tried to recruit the commandant of the United States Marine Corps, General Butler, to lead a major insurrection of the World War II veterans, you know, against Franklin Roosevelt's government, to oust him and to put Smedley Butler, the General Butler, in charge, in that they were going to have a fascist government. The Carnegie's, Rockefellers, you know, these are... All the Gilded Age family. They're just the Gilded Age. Got it. Okay, so when you say,

Starting point is 01:57:28 robber barons, you mean the Gilded Age industrialists that controlled the supply chains of the United States. They were just very, very effective. The Vanderbiltz, were they were, yes, right. Absolutely. They were very effective doing what they were doing and that they carried what they were doing to the logical conclusions and say, well, look, why wouldn't we exercise control over the government? But this is what was going on. And the bottom line is that after, because Hitler came off the leash and started becoming totally excessive about what he was doing in Europe and then started going after all the Jewish people, you know, and started doing all the Jewish people, you know, and started doing all. all these kind of excessive things. Still, you need to remember. It's going to be kind of a shocking observation,

Starting point is 01:58:13 but the United States never declared war on Germany. Really? Never did. They declared war on Japan. Japan after Pro Harbor. After Japan, after Pro Harbor. And then Germany declared war on the United States because they were in the Axis.

Starting point is 01:58:26 Because there was this huge, powerful group inside the United States that didn't want to go to war with Germany. Well, the critique of FDR at the time was like he, was not paying attention to any of the stuff going on with the Holocaust and that he waited way too long and that you know Yeah, I mean he didn't want to go to he didn't want to go to war initially and then once he realized that he that he that well because the whole lobby didn't want to go to war against Germany Yeah. Because they're the ones that he created them but there are some rumors that he might have had pre-knowledge of Pearl Harbor Oh, he didn't. That's not you know that's true. I know that's true they lure they lured the Japanese in because he He was convinced that they were eventually going to have to go to war anyhow.

Starting point is 01:59:10 And so what he wanted to do is he wanted to rally the American people behind it. So what he did is he ordered all of the destroyers and all three of the major aircraft carriers into Pearl all at one time. And they were monitoring the Japanese trafficking and they realized that they said, oh. What's your confidence level that he had knowledge of that? So 100%. Okay. It's 100%.

Starting point is 01:59:32 Okay. Because we know that they had the cable traffic. They had the communications going out with all the Japanese military. And they knew that they were luring them in. And once they decided they were going to do it, he sent the personal order the night before the attack on December 7th. He ordered all the aircraft carriers to leave under the cover of night. That's the key.

Starting point is 01:59:55 Once you see that, they ordered them all out of there. And they let him bomb Pearl Harbor and sink a number of the fairly outmoded destroyers anyhow that they had. The United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan. Once Japan did that, then they declared, he got a declaration war against Japan, not against Germany. And then Germany declared war on the United States. Okay, so let's jump back to JFK, actually. So, so Brom Brothers Harriman is a very powerful center of organizing. Okay, and so that when Kennedy was deciding that he was going to do this backdoor channel thing with Nikita Khrushchev

Starting point is 02:00:43 and start issuing orders to disassemble and destroy the nuclear warheads, that when Dulles find out about that, what he does goes to Brombrose Harriman and they give the green light, say, that's it. You know, this guy's got to go. And he knew about the S-Force so that they just targeted the S-Force. Was George H.W. Bush involved in the death of JFK? No, he was notified just before it was coming down, as Lyndon Johnson was. They were notified that this was happening because they had said, look, he's trying to, he's trying to disassemble the nuclear warheads of our whole arsenal. They all got together, Jagger Hoover and Nixon.

Starting point is 02:01:25 Because George H.W. Bush was CIA, and I think he went missing the rumor was for 12 days. And there's a photograph of him in Dallas. We know where he was. He was in Dallas. He was in a meeting at the ranch of Clint Merchinson. Not the one in Wohawkah, but the one in Dallas. So he was helping coordinate this whole? No, no.

Starting point is 02:01:41 He was just being briefed. He was just being told, notified that this was getting ready to happen. Okay. And so that's it. But he had pre-knowledge of JFKs. Yes. He did. Lyndon Johnson did.

Starting point is 02:01:54 Hoover did. The Lyndon Johnson thing makes sense to me. It was viewed as the patriotic thing to do. because he was a traitor in their eyes. And he was actually planning to physically disassemble the nuclear warheads and destroy them. I mean, what more, what a greater act of treason could you do doing it on behest of? This is crazy. There's so many angles to it.

Starting point is 02:02:22 And so that's why they did. That's why they felt completely self-righteous about it. They deploy the S-force. You know, the guy that killed him is Roger Morales, who is the dead eye shot for the for the team, you know, off the knoll. And it turns out. So he was one of the men on the grassy knoll. Yeah, that's right.

Starting point is 02:02:38 The key guy. And what's his name? Morales, Roger Morales. And Cabell is one of Dallas's right-hand men. And there's this weird narrative with him where his brother is the mayor of Dallas. That's right. Cabal. Yeah, that's right.

Starting point is 02:02:52 Is it Cabal or Cabell? Cabell. Cabell. And his brother, the mayor of Dallas, reroutes. Yeah. JFK's motorcade. Is that right? Yeah.

Starting point is 02:03:00 He was involved. in the decision to do it, yeah. And there's a weird kind of UFO connection there because Cabell, you know, CIA officer Cabell, had seen Blue Book and he said, you know, this is a super shoddy operation. This is written up in Edward J. Ruppelt's book. And so...

Starting point is 02:03:19 And he actually became part of Blue Book. Right. He actually had authority in Project Blue Book to fix the place up and run it. You know, so that's all true. You know, it's one of those data points that you have to look at and say, what does that mean? Does it mean what you think it might mean?

Starting point is 02:03:36 How many things could it mean, et cetera? But the bottom line is that Oswald, the most unpopular part of this whole reality, is that everybody thinking Oswald was just this innocent guy that just happened to be in the neighborhood. That's not true at all. Do you think he was brainwashed or coerced or, you know? No, I think what he did is he realized

Starting point is 02:03:57 that there was a plan of foot to have him go up there, and take a shot at Kennedy, not to kill him, but take the shot at him. So what they could then do is say, oh, look, he's connected to Cuba. That's why he did that fake Cuban Free Cuba Committee thing. And they could blame that. And he spent some time in Russia.

Starting point is 02:04:17 And then they, that's right. And then they could run and attack. He thought he was going to be the only one that was going to be taking the shot at him and then trying to run away. And then they were going to eventually catch. Do you think that would work though? Well, he was.

Starting point is 02:04:30 Or was he was. Or was he ideologically? down to be martyr or something. No, no. He just believed that it was going to work. He was going to get arrested and then they were going to come to his aid. Okay. He was going to get legal defense and he'd do all these other kind of things. But as soon as he saw Tippett, as soon as he saw Tippett coming for him, he killed Tippett. He shot and killed Tippett. And Tippett is? The police officer that he killed. Yeah, right. Because Tippett was assigned to go get him. Right. And because he had too much knowledge, you think they got Jack Ruby to kill him? Yes.

Starting point is 02:04:58 And Jack Ruby, I think, was maybe an MKL at a patient. It wasn't required. He was a mob guy. You know, I mean, the mob guys were all into the assassination team and everything. Yes. So it wasn't, it didn't require brainwashing him or anything. Yeah, but it was really odd because he never recalled killing Lee Harvey Oswald. And as soon as he kills him, he's going, you know, because he's a Miami nightclub guy and all the cops around him are, you know, arresting him. And he's going, what are you doing?

Starting point is 02:05:21 I'm Jack Ruby. And then in his jail cell for six months or whatever, he doesn't recall, you know, ever having anything to do with the killing. And then he's seen by Jolly West, who we know. Who we know is, you know, Rand M. K. Ultrow was in correspondence with Sidney Dolly. But he also tried to get to talk to Earl Warren directly to tell him what was really going on. Jack Ruby. Jack Ruby did. Well, that's why you get Jolly West in there.

Starting point is 02:05:44 And Jolly West spends 24 hours with him in his jail cell. No records of this. And he comes out and he says Jack Ruby has had a psychotic break. Jack Ruby goes nuts. And he says, you know, I'm hearing Jews screaming on the other end of, you know, my jail cell. I think they're dying or whatever. And so to me, that screams that at least there he was brainwashed. I don't know about prior.

Starting point is 02:06:06 Well, what I'm saying is that with Occam's Razor, applying Occam's Razor, it doesn't require all of that for him to be directed by the mob to take out Oswald. Correct. Get him to hell out of there. Correct. In fact, it would probably imply he was lucid and had some knowledge if he were brainwashed by Jolly West, which I think he was. So maybe he was actually aware of what was going on when he killed him.

Starting point is 02:06:30 And that's right. They saw him as a liability and they had to take him out via Jolly West. So the plan was is to simply have Oswald take the shot at Kennedy, flee, run away, get away, and have Tippett kill him. And so they'd have the single lone gunman shot and killed and it'd be over, they'd be done with, right? Which is the classic MO is how you do it, right? But as soon as he saw a Tippett coming to see him, he shot him and killed him. And then continued to flee and realized that he was getting screwed because he didn't know there were any other shooters. It is also when you read the transcript of Jackie O coming off Air Force One and being greeted by Lyndon Baines Johnson.

Starting point is 02:07:18 You know, Johnson and JFK sort of hated each other by that time. Sure. And I do see LBJ as sort of this ruthless guy. President Lyndon Johnson has left the hospital in Dallas, but we do not know to where he has proceeded. Yeah, he was that. He was that. And like, you hear, I don't know, you just read the transcript of him speaking to Jackie O. And she kind of runs into his arms. And he seems freaked out.

Starting point is 02:07:46 He's like, they're going to get us. They're going to get us all. And to me, it seems like live action role playing, like a little bit fake. You know, Jack Valenti, Jack Valenti told me all about it. Okay. Jack Valenti was with it. that's right. Jack Valenti was with him. He locked himself in the bathroom at an Air Force 1. He locked he locked himself in the bathroom and wouldn't come out and Jack Valenti had to go and

Starting point is 02:08:05 get him to take him out of there and he was going through this whole thing, they're going to kill us all, they're going to kill us all. But he'd already been notified the previous night out at Clint Murchison's house. So that. There are at least three witnesses to testify to that. So RFK Jr. thinks that his father was not killed by Sir Hans Sir Hahn. He was shot from the back by a guy named Eugene Thane Caesar. I've talked to Bobby about this at Lane. Who is coordinating with Bob Mayhew, who's his lawyer. And so that's a crazy revelation.

Starting point is 02:08:38 And I think Eugene Thane Caesar goes on to become a bodyguard at Skunk Works. Well, he got employed with Mayhew. Right. And Mayhew was working with Summa Corporation. My understanding is that he was working with Mayhew around the time. Mayhew was clearly coordinating with him around the assassination. And then

Starting point is 02:08:58 Eugene Thane Caesar went on to work at Skunk Works, but I could be wrong. Okay. But I think it was, I think it was Summa Corporation. Okay. It was the chooses operation. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So yeah, what do you make of that? I mean, that's insane. That's a pretty... Well, I try not to be insane. Yeah. No, but it's just like a

Starting point is 02:09:18 bombshell, like important, you know, thing that people need to know. Well, it's interesting. You know, I've talked to Bobby about it. And Bobby was going to be meeting with the fellow to try to get him to do it and the guy insisted upon being paid you know 10,000 dollars he wouldn't sit down and talk to Bobby at all and Bobby just blew him off who is the guy yeah Eugene Dan caesar yeah exactly wow you know that I was a little surprised it seemed like it was worth 10 grand yeah that seems worth 10 grand you really thought although I could see not wanting to be out of extorted out of pride yeah yeah right your father's assassin that's what he did

Starting point is 02:09:52 he said no I'm not I'm not going to go away yeah you know but that it's a pretty crazy story. And I think the other, you know, possibilities that Sir Han, Sir Han himself was an MK. Ultra patient. Sure, sure. Because he had spent some time with William Jennings Bryan, not to be confused with the 19th century. Well, the Jennings Bryan, but the guy who's probably involved in MK Ultra. And I think he was working at the Santa Ana Race track. Yeah, we did, we did the only case against M.K. Ultra that won. You know, we actually, we actually, we actually, what case was that? That there was, there was a woman who was the daughter. of a fellow out on Long Island that was a tennis pro and he he like some tennis pros was having affairs with some of the women the wives that were getting trained to be tennis player yeah and his wife divorced him and he became totally depressed about being abandoned like that and he started meeting with a friend of his who was a

Starting point is 02:10:49 psychologist and the psychologist said you know you actually need to have a little bit more just talking to a psychologist, you need to get kind of more counseling. So a friend of mine works at, I remember which big hospital was, big hospital in New York City, something like Sloan Kettering or one of those big. Yeah. He said, and my friend works there. So you could go there and take a whole week, be there in residence, and you can have a meeting with him in the morning and meeting in the afternoon for each day for a week. You know, so he agrees to go do that.

Starting point is 02:11:22 Well, it turns out they were doing MK Ultra experiments there at the place. And so after about two days of general counseling with the psychiatrist there, they dose him with a huge mass of LSD without telling him. And because he's totally freaked out. I mean, it's hard enough when you know what's happening. But he was just freaked out. And they told him falsely that he'd had a psychotic break and that he would have to stay there for a little bit longer and they would have to help figure out what's going on here. And then, like, four days later, they give him a second massive dose, and he dies of a heart attack. Jesus Christ.

Starting point is 02:11:59 And so they're freaking out at the place. And so what they do is they have to bring in lawyers from the Army and from the intelligence community to come in to cover for them. And it turns out that... What was this guy's name? I don't remember his name because I had other lawyers do this for us, right? I've got it in the files, but the bottom line is, is that the lawyer that came in for the U.S. Army to cover it up, their involvement in this was Jacob Javits, who went on to become the United States Senator from New York. And the other lawyer that was representing the intelligence community was Warren Berger, who went on to become the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court.

Starting point is 02:12:46 These two guys came in and covered up that entire. event that took place. And when we discovered that in the discovery, the judge said, that's it. We're not going any farther on this case. Really? This is going to settle. You have her tell how much money she wants. Really? And you will give it to her. Because Warren Berger had already become head of the U.S. Supreme Court. No way. Yeah. That's true. That's wild. That is true. What do you think the purpose, because I have some weird conspiracies about like what they tried to do with MK Ultra. I don't know if you have any theories there. They thought that if you dose somebody with LSD, it will dissolve away the boundaries of their concept structures. Yeah. And that if one of their

Starting point is 02:13:34 concept structures is that they have to remain loyal and keep secret certain information that they've got, that you'll dissolve those away. Yeah. And that under interrogation, you can get them to come clean and talk to you. So it started out as a device, LSD, to have a device of interrogation. Truth serum. But there was, I think, more to it as well where they would construct killers. And I think, you know, like, if you look at Jolly West, you know, he had his center for violence reduction. Yes. And the way I think it almost worked is like, so I think like Charles Manson was an M.KL. Trip. I have a buddy in L.A. named Tom O'Neill. I know all that. Documents it pretty well. And so you have to ask, like, why would you make Charles Manson do what he did,

Starting point is 02:14:21 possibly? And it was like, maybe it was like to make an example out of him, marginalize the, you know, the hippie movement. And, you know, you have the famous Donna Tart line, you know, August 8th, 1968 or whatever is the, or maybe 69, is the, you know, the day that the 60s ended. And it was like, you know, everybody really, you see this long-haired guy, and he seems like a hippie, but he's like actually super violent. You just, well. So you make it, you make an example out of something that you want to marginalize. And so it's sort of mass pacification through local violence creation or something.

Starting point is 02:14:57 It's conceivable. Yeah. Like, conceivable isn't the standard. Because there's lots of things that are conceivable. You know, and there are a lot of them. And there's a, people fixate on something that is conceivable that happens to correspond to their worldview. Is there an MKL? UFO connection? I mean, you know

Starting point is 02:15:15 as we get to the issue of the UFO stuff, there's all kinds of issues that are involved in consciousness in the states of consciousness, the elevation of consciousness, all of that stuff, which relates tangentially, at least to the LSD, you know, that is involved

Starting point is 02:15:31 in UFO stuff. The entire remote viewing process, the entire psychic process, all that stuff with hell put off in with Russell Targ and all those folks, that whole element of consciousness is a very big deal. The UFO thing is so confusing because, okay, you have different threads.

Starting point is 02:15:55 You have this like consciousness thread where it's like, I don't know if it's Kabbalah or like certain people can summon this stuff, but like you sort of intend on the thing happening, you know, Greer has CE5 or whatever. This stuff sort of enters your orbit. And like, that feels different to me than, like, nuts and bolts craft. Oh, it is. Okay. It is.

Starting point is 02:16:17 But it's all part of a specific phenomenon. You know, as long as you confine it to looking at the UFO stuff. Yeah. You know, the fact that the UFOs appear to be navigated telepathically, for example, and that the craft have built into it some kind of an AI capacity to respond telepathically to the control of the pilot. Now, that's pretty far out. You know, when you get into that stuff.

Starting point is 02:16:44 And so the whole question of how telepathy works. Yeah. What are the physiological aspects of telepathy? How do you think? And remote viewing. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's stuff that Pat Price could do. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:16:58 You know, I mean, how the hell do you explain that? Yeah. You know, and when you start focusing on that, trying to get an understanding what that is, you realize that there's... Do you think you can turn that into math or repeatable science? or do you think it's this inherently kind of ephemeral thing? No, no, no, I believe it's reductionable, you know, to some subtle dimensions of physics. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:17:19 There's not any doubt about it. It's going on. Yeah. And there's something to it. Or a way to point to the human as the carrier of all knowledge. And there's something actually like the senses, the sensory world is actually a reduction on a default state of greater omniscience. And if you read, yeah, yeah. with more of a belief that maybe he believed in the ontological truth of what he was talking about.

Starting point is 02:17:46 And you read like The Myth of Air or some other things he sort of hinted at. Maybe, you know, there's much deeper knowledge that's kind of latent and innate inside a human being. All true. That is all true. Okay. That is all true. Yeah. You think so? I'm sure.

Starting point is 02:18:00 I'm sure that's true. Yeah. And what I'm in the process of doing is, and they know that I'm doing. I mean, Lou didn't just hire anybody. Yeah. You know, it didn't retain just anybody to be his lawyer. Yeah. I mean, he knew perfectly well that for 20 years I was legal counsel for the Disposure Project.

Starting point is 02:18:15 Yeah. He knew I represented Dr. John Mack. He knew that I was at the peer group. That's interesting, though, that you represented both Greer and Alizondo, because they hate each other, right? It's unfortunate. Why did they hate each other so much? It's unfortunate. Greer, obviously, you know, both of them have their fair share of critics.

Starting point is 02:18:34 But, yeah. Greer, to me, like, he's more right than, like, you know, like, I, there's something about the presentation of the guy that I kind of detest or something. Like, it's just sort of a really ridiculous, megalomaniacal. And yet, like, I think a lot of stuff he says, he was early on so much, and I think a lot of it probably checks. Well, I mean, that, you know, why does anybody hate anybody if they really know? I mean, the more. you know the more you forgive for why people do what they do you know that I don't I don't think people hating each other is is very constructive but I know that it's

Starting point is 02:19:14 not a good idea for for them to hate each other yeah that there's a there's a constructive relationship that could be formed do you think Nixon was pretty interested in UFOs because he was there's a famous Jackie I know some thing yeah I know about that that that You know, he was, I guess you could call it, had more or less kind of a Purian interest in it. Yeah. It was kind of this kind of itch that he had to kind of know it. But he was so involved in so many kind of low consciousness things that were going on.

Starting point is 02:19:51 I think this was kind of above his, and not his pay grade, but his kind of level of consciousness. It was just something he couldn't probably figure out how to use it. Yeah. You know, politically. He was very smart and very crafty and just didn't fit into. anything as far as you could tell, I think. Five men, apparently caught in the act of burglarizing and bugging Democratic headquarters in Washington.

Starting point is 02:20:14 The Watergate thing just seems like so crazy. It seems like you know all these deeper layers than other people as to how it went down. I do. And so what's your version of the story? High level, and then we can get into some of the deeper names and narratives. The high level is that the key to it is that there were

Starting point is 02:20:35 four Trafficante guys. There was E. Howard Hunt who was the liaison to the Everglades operation in Operation Mungoose. He also said he was involved in the JFK assassination and he said that JFK was killed over UFOs. Well, his son says he said that. He said it. Okay, he didn't say that. And then and then And then Frank Sturgis was on the team, did the burglary. He was the liaison out on Swan Island for that group. So the same S-Force guys. They're S-Force guys, right?

Starting point is 02:21:21 So those are both S-Force guys. And the Cubans were S-Force guys. And then they had McCord, who was there, who was the CIA wiretapping specialist. And so when I was brought on to work on. And dullest once called McCord, the best guy I ever had or something. Yeah. Well, what Nixon said literally in the smoking gun thing, if you peel off that scab, there's an awful lot of stuff that could come out that we don't want out.

Starting point is 02:21:51 And he was referring to hunt. Okay? And that whole smoking gun, when you look at the smoking gun conversation on the 21st of June that there was Haldeman in Nixon on the tapes, that Haldeman's that Haldeman's comes into the office and says, Mr. President, I think we've got a problem here. He said, what is it, Bob? He said, Pat Gray, who was the new FBI director that had just been installed because Hoover had died.

Starting point is 02:22:16 He says, Pat Gray has called, and they got a problem, that the FBI people are insisting upon going down and investigating the bank down in Mexico City, where those bills came from that we're in Bernard Barker's pocket. And he wants to know if that's going to cause any trouble the White House. Nixon says, Bob, what I want you to do is I want you to go and get John, Erickman. I want you to go over to the agency. And I want you to see Vernon Walters in Dick Helms. And you tell him right now to contact the FBI and tell them to get the hell out of that part of the investigation.

Starting point is 02:23:02 And Haldeman says, well, what am I going to tell him to say? And he said, you just tell him if they dig into that part of this investigation, all the Mexico stuff about the Cuban guys are all going to come out. That's Wohaka. That's the Cuban guys that are being trained in the assassination. Because that bank account, where those monies came out of, where those bills were in Bernard Barker's pocket, was in. the bank account of this lawyer by the name of Vagario, which is where they put the money from the skim off the casinos through Marcello in Orlando, Orleans, and into the Miami National Bank of Meyer Lansky.

Starting point is 02:23:52 And they would wire it into the bank account down in Mexico City to pay the cost of that triangular fire team base. That's where the money came from that was in the pocket of Bernard Barker. So the question is if anybody punched into that where does it lead to you know It leads to the Kennedy assassination mm hmm right there and Nixon was terrified He's like don't peel off that he was terrified because the guy who's office they were in in the DNC That that that uh that uh uh uh uh larry o'brien before becoming the new head of the DNC to run the campaign against Nixon in 72

Starting point is 02:24:33 have been the major lobbyist in Washington, D.C. for Howard Hughes. Wow. Interesting. Nixon knew it. Nixon went, oh, shit. He said if Larry O'Brien was told about what we did back in 1960, creating that assassination team. Yeah. That's going to lead back to the fact that they're the ones that killed the president, because he knew they're the ones that killed the president. And it wasn't any way that he was going to be able to convince him. anybody that he wasn't behind it. Because he's the one that organized the assassination team that ended up killing the president. And so he freaked out and he said, you've got to, so you've got to get that shut down. You've got to find out whether he's going to say anything about it. That's really interesting.

Starting point is 02:25:19 So you go into his office, I want you to bug his phones, and I want you to, he didn't say it there. So his paranoia really did him in. He was trying to overcorrect the fact that they would have to shut that thing down. That's fascinating. Okay. And so that's why they went in. And that's why you had to have guys. from the shooter team, they were in there because they had to know what they were looking for.

Starting point is 02:25:37 Okay, and nobody else could know what they were looking for. So you couldn't bring anybody else to do it. And you say, what the hell are these Traficati guys doing in there? And so that was the question I asked. I was assigned to go back to Washington to monitor the hearings, the Watergate hearings, that were going on. And so they were going to have one of the hearing things, and it was televised. So I was sitting in the Gold Key Motel with my investigator. William Johnstone Taylor, who was the protege, I mean, to you,

Starting point is 02:26:07 to bat Andy Tooney, who headed up the Moriartian Associates investigative firm. He's my guy, right? Three-Tour Vietnam CID Marine Corps guy, right? And he's sitting there, and they bring on, they bring on to testify Jerry Alch, who was listed as the official attorney for James. James McCord and comes on in Dan Inouye. Hawaii. And what's is that from North Carolina?

Starting point is 02:26:43 Sam Irvin are interviewing him, right? And Dan Inouye says, Mr. Rawlitz, you said, you're partners with, you represent Jane McHord, is that correct? He said yes. He said, you're the law partner of Lee Bailey, aren't you? And he said, yes, yes, I am. He said, now, isn't Mr. Bailey under indictment down in Florida on a charge of mail fraud? And he said, yes, but that's going to be dismissed right away, because I'd already filed

Starting point is 02:27:17 the motions of dismiss it, which we won. So he said, well, that's just going to be dismissed right away. So they said, yes, but in a way, he says, well, couldn't one get the sense that Mr. Bailey might be attempting to keep McCoy, John James McCourt, from testifying in order to do a favor for somebody very high up in the administration in exchange for getting good treatment on his criminal case. And Jerry said, but that isn't true. And what happened is just as that testimony was going to come out, Lee Bailey walks into

Starting point is 02:27:54 the hotel room, where we are. He goes walking in and he's standing there listening to this. his testimony and he hears the testimony and he turns around and walks out into the hall and we heard him slugging quarters into a payphone which was totally weird because he used to carry this brief case around that had a telephone in it and he would he would kind of move away from all of us and he'd go over to a place where nobody could be around and he would open up the suitcase and he'd pull out the antenna and he would have this telephone that he could talk to somebody he was talking to a bunch of times.

Starting point is 02:28:29 And we couldn't figure out what this was. And even Bad Andy didn't know who that was, right? So Billy, so he just says that. He goes out in the hall and we hear him putting the claims on the phone. And I turned to Bill Taylor and I say, what the hell is this all about? And he said, I don't know. And I said, find out.

Starting point is 02:28:50 Okay? And so he goes and talks to Bad Andy. And then Bad Andy didn't want to. tell him. He said, no, no. He says, you guys are good boys. You don't want to get involved in any of this kind of stuff. He says, and you don't say that to a private investigator. You don't really want to know. So he said, yes, I do. I want to know. He kept leaning on Bad Andy. And Bad Andy is the one that brought him into the private investigation firm because he's an old Marine Corps guy, right? So, so Billy keeps after him. Finally, he says, look, here's the story.

Starting point is 02:29:22 It turns out that Lee is on index four for the agency. He's one of the four attorneys that are on retainer for the Central Intelligence Agency so that if any CIA operative is caught state-side engaged in a covert operation, which is totally forbidden by the National Security Act in 1947, that he's one of the lawyers that will be retained. That's why James McCord has reached out to him. This was after Watergate? This is during the Watergate hearings.

Starting point is 02:29:59 Yeah. This is after Watergate. Because McCord was let off for, right, like within four months. He was given one to five years. McCord is the guy that wrote the letter to Judge Sirica, blow in the whistle on Nixon and the plumbers. He's the guy that did that, right, out of our office. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:30:15 So why wasn't Nixon set up in this model of what happened, because McCord's this sort of deep CIA guy who's, you know, very close with Dulles. No, because we know that Nixon is the one that ordered the break-in. He wasn't being set up. He's the one that ordered the break-in in order to see whether Larry was right. Yeah, but then they sold them out afterwards. Well, so you have to separate out. So it wasn't done to set him up. Okay. So what happened is McCord, McCord, out of our office, office is the one that gets pissed off over the fact that he thinks they're all getting sold

Starting point is 02:30:57 down the stream here. And he's saying, what's the story? He says, look, I was told that this was, because he wasn't briefed in. Got it. He didn't know. Got it. He was just putting the wiretap equipment and stuff in. And he was told the reason they were doing this is because they thought that the DNC

Starting point is 02:31:15 was helping to coordinate anti-Vietnam demonstrations. Got it. that they were therefore engaged in national security violations. So he thought he got sold out. And he thinks he got sold out. So he got pissed off about this. And so he writes the letter of Sirica, right? That's what happened.

Starting point is 02:31:31 I mean, and we know exactly what happened. So when I find out, when Taylor gets all this information, bad Andy, they lay it out to us in detail. He went down to Hank Gonzalez's. Hank Gonzalez is officially, technically, the lawyer for Traficanti. He was just a cover for Bailey. But then who ends up helping out Woodward and Bernstein? So deep-throw... That was Mark Felt.

Starting point is 02:31:57 So I still don't understand... Mark Felt was kidding... He's the guy that was insisting upon going down the next morning to Mexico to investigate the bank account. Wow. That was Mark Felt. He was going down to follow the money. Where did that money come from?

Starting point is 02:32:12 They tracked it back to that bank. But if he's the deputy director of the FBI, right, Mark Felt, and then he's... acting as this sort of anonymous tip-off guy for, you know, Woodward and Bernstein at the Washington Post, doesn't that again point towards this sort of coordinated effort against Nixon, where he's sort of trying to, trying to, like, expose this to the citizen press? What's happening, Mark felt was still pissed off that he'd been passed over for the head of the FBI, right? So he was that...

Starting point is 02:32:47 It was pure revenge, personal spite. Because he was pissed off that they were trying to cut him off. He was trying to go down and do that investigation, legitimate investigation of what the hell happened here. And he and Gray was telling him not to go. Okay. Because Gray had called the White House and said, look at, you know, I've got FBI people that are wanting to go down and do the investigation of this bank. That's when Nixon said, go get the agency to shut them off. Tell him they can't do this.

Starting point is 02:33:18 So Felt's motivation was basically, you know, he was pissed personally. Yeah. And he wanted to do the investigation that would have led him to the original S-Force set up and stuff. So he would find, well, he didn't know what it was going to lead to. Yeah, yeah, but it would have. It would have. And then James McCord was pissed that he was getting sold out. That's right.

Starting point is 02:33:36 And it was given, you know, not the right information as to why he was going into the DNC. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's very interesting. And so that when we get this information from traffic content, or Bill Taylor and I say, holy shit, you know, look what we're in the middle of here. Yeah. That we now know that, in fact, the assassination team that was created back in 1960 by Richard Nixon are the ones that killed the president. Isn't it wild that a mob boss drug dealer knows more about the true history of American politics than the average American citizen?

Starting point is 02:34:09 Oh, no, that's not surprising. I mean, it's not surprising. Almost anybody knows more than the average citizen in the United States. Yeah, but it would be surprised. to somebody off the street. Do you think there was or could have been a CIA conspiracy to remove you from office? I don't know.

Starting point is 02:34:31 I know many people think so. I would say that I've had it, found it difficult to understand why the CIA, which apparently had advanced knowledge of the break-in, didn't inform me. I found it difficult to understand found it difficult to understand how it could have been that at least two of those involved had CIA connections and nevertheless that it was not brought to my attention as far as the

Starting point is 02:35:02 break to break in occurring. Here's another weird connection that you might be familiar with. So, you know, we talked about G. Gordon Liddy and we talked about Bob Mayhew. There are photos with both of those guys and John Lear. And John Lear is very involved in the Bob Lazar stuff. And so when I talk to like Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, I don't understand why they're so dogmatically like pro-Lazar being at least accepted at face value. Because I'm like, look, I'm not discounting your reporting. Like I think the reporting was good. But the idea that this wasn't pushed out by the CIA, I think, is just it's like you're not able to think properly about this. Because you had this guy in John Lear, who's son of Bill Lear, whether he was a useful idiot or an agent provocateur, I don't know,

Starting point is 02:35:50 probably useful idiot. I don't know. But he had been spending a decade outside of Area 51. And you spend a decade outside of Area 51, the security guards know you there. Like, this is all documented. Why the hell would they not do a basic background check on Bob Lazard know that he's best friends with the guy camping out and, you know, sketching all these kind of exotic aircraft around Area 51?

Starting point is 02:36:14 That would be number one. Number two, why would you continue to have him fly cargo jets for you, and be a pilot for you for various missions into the 80s, which, you know, he says he disaffiliated in 83, but he really disaffiliated much later. Let me tell you a story to make you even more confounded. Please. I'm at Jesuit headquarters here in Washington, D.C., right?

Starting point is 02:36:38 And I get a call in the phone. and it is what's his name the guy that owned Rebel Magazine and Larry Flint right so I get a call from Larry Flint you know who this guy is

Starting point is 02:36:54 I don't actually Larry Flint's a guy that owned like 30 different magazines you know Rebel magazine and Gent in these skin magazines and all this kind of stuff he had gotten sued for libel because in one of the

Starting point is 02:37:10 magazines that he published, someone wrote a story using a woman who won the Miss, you know, Oklahoma or something, beauty contest. And so she filed a lawsuit against him in one, and the case had gone all the way the United States Supreme Court and his lawyers were challenging it as a violation of First Amendment, right? He's coming into Washington, D.C. to go to the Supreme Court argument. He calls me on the phone. He says, Dan, he says, Larry Flint here. I went, ah, okay, yeah, okay, Ms. Flint, what? He said, well, I'm coming in town for the Supreme Court. I'd like to have a meeting with you, if I could. Could you come and see me tomorrow? I'm going to be staying at the park hotel. So I say, okay, what's it

Starting point is 02:37:59 about? He said, I can't talk with you on the phone about it. So the next day, I get Father William J. Davis, who was my Jesuit superior at the headquarters, right? And we jump up in the blue flame, his little car is, we drive over to the hotel, right? And here are like four of these big stretch lemos all parked in front of his hotel, which is the Larry Flint entourage that are all there, right? So we go into the lobby and we say, you know, my name's attorney Dan Sheen, Father Bill Davis, we're here to see Larry Flynn. Oh, yes, he said, you know, and they bring us over to this elevator,

Starting point is 02:38:32 and they bring us up to the top floor to the penthouse, right? We get out the elevator, and here's Larry Flint and his gold-plated wheelchair, right? Because he got shot. Somebody tried to assassinate him. He's in this gold plate of a wheelchair. And he brings us into the side room. He said, look, I want to retain you at the Christic Institute that you guys have. We'd like to retain you to investigate the death of Savage.

Starting point is 02:39:02 What was her first name? She was the original hostess of first. Frontline when it first started on PBS. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jessica Savage, her name was. And she and her husband had driven off a bridge in the middle of some storm and he'd gotten drowned and killed. And he said, I think that that was a murder.

Starting point is 02:39:33 And I want to retain you guys to do the investigation. You guys did the Karen Silkwood investigation. You've done all these kind of things. And so I said, no, well, we don't, you know, we're a 501C3 public interest group. You know, we don't get hired to do investigations. I said, you could make a contribution to us if you wanted to. It's all tax deductible. And I said, and we could then look into this if we figure out that there's some sort of major public interest thing here, that this was a murder and she's a major reporter and there's something important.

Starting point is 02:40:05 You know, we could then, you know, make that public. and he said, well, would you do this? Would you just let me know first so I could publish it in my magazine, in Rebel magazine, and I'll give you guys the million-dollar contribution? And I said, I think we could do that. But there's one thing, he said,

Starting point is 02:40:25 I've got an investigator that I'd like to have work with you on this. I said, nope, nope, nope, no, that's not how we do it. You know, we've got our own investigators, because I had not only the guys, Bill Taylor and the guys that were in Moriarty, and so who still kept doing stuff for us for free. But I also had all the Jesuit guys, 42 countries all around the world that are given information to our headquarters, right? So I said, no, no. I said, we'll do this ourselves. You know, just let me introduce you to them, right? And he dials the phone and the door opens up

Starting point is 02:40:56 and in walks, G. Gordon Liddy, walks into the room. And I looked at him. And he comes over and he sticks his handout like that. I said, excuse me. I said, you know, I told you, I told you, we're not going to be dealing with anybody that you want to put in, especially him. And Liddy turned to Flint and he said, see, I told you. I told you he wouldn't do it. So we say no, we're not going to do this. And we don't know whether he was going to give us the million dollars or not. So I go downstairs and I, we're down in the elevator and I'm starting to walk out of the hotel.

Starting point is 02:41:29 All of a sudden somebody holland says, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Sheehan. And I said, yes, yeah, what is it? And I go over. And it was Gordon Novell. Who is that? Ah, good. You don't know. Gordon Novell is the guy that was arrested and prosecuted by James Garrison in New Orleans for burning

Starting point is 02:41:49 down 555 Camp Street, the office where Lee Oswald had the office along with, what was the guy that was the hardcore right-wing guy that was the head of the Latin American anti-communist League one of the the the guy that was the former FBI guy that was down in New Orleans the heck was that guy's name but anyway he had an office in the same in the exact same building on the exact same floor whoa with him and in the Gordon Novell was prosecuted and convicted burning down that building in the midst of the investigation. That's crazy.

Starting point is 02:42:40 Okay? And so it gets crazier. Okay? So he says, I want you to represent me. I want to get that criminal conviction of me expunged. And I said, well, you've already been convicted of it, you know, and that was years ago, you know, and you've already served the time and everything for it. You see, you don't do that. He said, no, no, I just want to, I want to.

Starting point is 02:43:04 you to, you know, get that expunged for me. And so I said, uh, I, like, I don't, I don't know anything about it, but you know, here's my card. You can call me if you're, so I go back to the office and a few days later, he calls and he says, how's that investigation going? And I said, no, I said, I haven't agreed to the investigation. He said, you know, I, I, I, I confided in you, you, you, and he started, he threatened to kill me. Gordon Novell, right? Mm-hmm. Well, Gordon Novell ends up later

Starting point is 02:43:34 being hired by John Alexander. Whoa. To be one of the investigators for NIDS. Whoa. To go around, you know,

Starting point is 02:43:43 trying to make people who are contactees come and give them the information. And he's a spotter for people who are getting abducted. Well,

Starting point is 02:43:52 through my lab. Crazy. Abductions. Right? And that's him. Okay. And so Gordon Novell, years later,

Starting point is 02:43:59 And you're implying that he was kind of part of the cover-up of the JFK assassination. I'm just telling you what the facts are. Well, the facts are weird. That the facts are weird. Burned down 5-55-camp Street. Facts are weird. Which was being used as what by Lee Harvey Oswald? That was an office for the free Cuba group.

Starting point is 02:44:17 Okay. The alleged Cuba group in this guy, Ben or Bert, whatever his name was, had his office right next door to him. So Gordon Ovel pops back up as this UFO? He passed. Well, later, because this, I'm out. 1994, I'm out representing Dr. John Mack, and I was asked to do a presentation of the International UFO Congress. So I'm doing a report on the International UFO Congress, and all of a sudden, Gordon Novell

Starting point is 02:44:41 walks up out of the crowd and says, Mr. Shan, he said, look, I've got all these drawings and stuff about the UFOs and how their propulsion system works and all that kind of stuff. And he starts showing them to me, and he said, you know, I've been working on these things and had a lot of time when I was in prison to do this, and I'd like to have you represent me to get my stuff patented here. He says, that's Gordon Novell. And I'm saying, excuse me, I said, I don't think you quite remember, you know,

Starting point is 02:45:10 you're threatening to kill me. Yeah. You know, a number of years ago, he says, I didn't really mean that. You know, and I said, and that was the last time had any of do with it. Okay. So what does all that mean? You know, what is exactly does all that mean?

Starting point is 02:45:22 You know, that what I just sort of put it on the wall. Yeah. It's one of the cards on the wall. Yeah. You know, to see, you know, where, and you have the threads, you know, the nylon threads that you put between the cards and figure out what's going on here. But there's lots of weird stuff going on. Lots of weird stuff. Lots of weird pieces.

Starting point is 02:45:41 And those are all little data points because I know those things to be absolutely true. But, you know, the reality is, is that during the Karen Silkwood case that we did, you know, that Karen Silkwood is this young, 29-year-old, health safety person at a nuclear reprocessing plant. It wasn't a nuclear power plant. It was the sole place where they were trying to bring the spent fuels from the 103 nuclear power plants and then grind it all up into powder and then put it in centrifuges

Starting point is 02:46:13 and centrifuge out the plutonium and then recover the plutonium and then bring it at the fast flux test facility at Hanford. You know, it was an attempt to figure out what to do with the waste materials. The bottom line is that she discovered that they were missing 40 pounds of 98% bomb-grade plutonium from this facility. And she just concluded that it must have meant that they were really sloppy, that they must have been loose around the planet or around the plant somewhere. You know, and she didn't, so she called the union people that were trying to organize.

Starting point is 02:46:53 the Union at the plant and told them that, oh, look how sloppy they are, they're missing 40 pounds of 90% poverty plutonium, was going to Israel for nuclear weapons in violation of the Nuclear Unproliferation Treaty. Really? Yeah, and not only that, but they had to then share it with Iran as a condition under the Shah. And then the two of them had a... No way.

Starting point is 02:47:17 Yeah, it was all true. You know, and... Who is facilitating this on the American side? Central Intelligence Agency, Theodore Shackley, who was... a temporary guy on the Israeli desk, you know, but he had been the former Saigon station chief that ran the assassination program in South Asia too. But so what I'm saying is that she didn't know what was happening, but that when she got killed on the way to meet with the New York Times reporter to bring him the documents, David

Starting point is 02:47:45 Burnham, who was figuring there's a rat in the woodpile here somewhere, this isn't just missing in the plant, and that she got killed. off the road they rammed her car and ran her off the road and killed her and took the documents out of the car and this is a real story this is a really true thing that happened and I was in charge of the investigation to investigate what happened and what people came up with all kinds of nefarious theories as to what could have happened here and who could have done this and all that and I had to keep drilling through all of these different theories of what's going on here to figure out exactly what did happen and what What I discovered is that the, you know, people, what they have assumed, they assumed at least half a dozen different theories of what was going on. And what I discovered is that a little bit of two or three of the different theories were true, but no one of them was true. But there were pieces of what each of them had. They're the ones that really came together to explain what actually had happened. And what I've discovered that over and over and over again.

Starting point is 02:48:53 What's your process? I feel like you have to hear something and then catalog everything is like possible. Possible. That's right. And then you wait for corroboration. It comes from, I was trying to. But I think people, A priori discount things they hear too much because they're too epistemically closed. So they're like, it's like Bayesian reasoning where it's all based on prior evidence.

Starting point is 02:49:18 Yeah. But if you have this like A priori bias, every time you hear somebody say, hey, I saw a weird. thing in the sky. Your Bayesian reasoning is going to be totally off because you're just putting this in the junk pile when it shouldn't be. It should just be like you're open to everything. The person that I had trained me in this is Lawrence Tribe. Larry Tribe, who is now renowned as the leading American constitutional lawyer, you know, but he was a summa cum laude mathematics graduate from Harvard College and then went and got his Ph. Suma cum laude from Harvard in mathematics.

Starting point is 02:49:57 And at the age of 25, was the head of the United States Bureau of Statistics. At the age of 25, this guy. And he got bored with that after a few years, and decided he was going to law school, went to Harvard Law School, became the captain of the varsity debating team for Harvard University, and still ended up number two in his class at Harvard Law School.

Starting point is 02:50:20 You know, I mean, this guy is a totally brilliant guy. and he started out teaching evidence at Harvard and started explaining to us how you go about setting out your options in Bay's theorem in the whole thing. And he started explaining that's right from the very beginning. Yeah. When I learned that and then ended up at Emily Bailey's office where I had access to 40 Class A licensed private investigators, I could put that kind of investigative skills together with working through these different theorems of how things are going. And so that's how I've ended up being, I guess it might account for how I end up in these peculiar places. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:51:03 Because I've been able to not get drug off onto some one theory of something. I try to do the same thing. And I think being outside of academia helps us. Yes. Because academia, you become criticized and you have to kind of tiptoe around anything. bold or two. They're not designed to really forward the human knowledge in any kind of significant way. It's all nibbling at the edges.

Starting point is 02:51:30 I was just with Eric Weinstein and a bunch of other, you know, pretty renowned scientists. And, you know, I've worked with Eric for a while. And Eric is using basic Bayesian reasoning. And, you know, he's obviously as his own sort of theory of everything in math and physics has come to the conclusion that he thinks maybe there's a good chance that the U.S. has a secret physics program behind, you know, the kind of exoteric layer of physics. That's a wild revelation that he says names people. John Wheeler, Bryce DeWitt, Freeman Dyson, people like that who were, you know, renowned in the 50s and 60s. And he thinks that maybe there was something going on in the background with them.

Starting point is 02:52:10 And maybe they were actually interfacing more with aerospace than meets the eye, even Feynman. Yep. And so, yeah, it's very interesting. The conclusions you come to once you become open-minded. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people, it took the New York Times and the Pentagon saying this stuff is real for them to kind of open the possibility space on everything else. Because it is real. It has to shatter everything else.

Starting point is 02:52:36 You have to be like physics, religion, everything. It has to affect. And the one argument I'd say against not trying to. piece it all together. I do think having one theory of everything allows you to, you know, you want, if you have a bunch of high strangeness events, a bunch of anomalies, it's like you have big foot here and you have orbs over there and cattle mutilation and all these things, it's really hard for the average person to not just say that's a basket of crazy. It's like it's an amalgamation of crazy that doesn't fit neatly to, you know, science is supposed to be repeatable and predictable.

Starting point is 02:53:13 Yeah. And so I do think the theorizing does help get this stuff across the line. Yeah. And usually that I'm involved in a litigation, you know, that requires, you know, you're going to have to put the stuff in front of a jury, and you're going to have to follow the rules of evidence, and you're going to have to have the judge sitting there on your face, you know, trying to keep you from putting things in that he or she just doesn't want in, you know, because they, think that they have their own judgment that that might not be realistic or true. And so they don't want you putting it in front of the jury because they think they're in charge of the courtroom. You know, there's all kinds of things you have to do. But it lends a certain kind of focus to what you're doing. And you don't just aimlessly speculate about things.

Starting point is 02:54:05 Given that, sometimes I think the metaphysical conversations are frustratingly unfalsifiable. They're not, they're sort of not even wrong. as Feynman would say. And so there's almost a part of me. It's like we should look back at this history in the 50s and 60s in the U.S. where there's some interesting people claiming Robert J. Oppenheimer set up UFO secrecy. Like Grush has said that on record in an interview with me. Let's talk to his grandchildren. Let's talk to anybody who was alive at that time and try to corroborate that. There's something about renowned scientists. We just spent $130 million on a Christopher Nolan movie about this guy. He's like a, you know, the emblematic kind of American scientist mid-century.

Starting point is 02:54:48 Yeah. If he had anything to do with the UFO story, any smoking gun evidence around that would be this massive update, I think, for the average person who's just seen that movie and is interested in this character. Yeah. And so I do think sometimes the conversations are sort of frustratingly woo-woo, and we could, we could just move it into this territory of like, okay, but what about Oppenheimer? You know? What about these people? Yeah. Well, this is all the philosophical question. What is the methodology that a given person utilizes to try to determine for themselves what's true and what's not? You know, and the reality of it is that 99% of the people don't have the time or the disposition to be trying to find out things for themselves.

Starting point is 02:55:39 Yeah. And so that they just have certain authority figures that they look to that tell them. You know, and you're trained to that. Yes. You know, from the time you're in school, oh, your teacher is the one that knows. Here's Mr. Policeman who's coming in to show you how you get across the street safely, and they're the ones that you need to rely upon. Or the media.

Starting point is 02:55:56 Here's the, you know, here's the New York Times or here's NBC. You know, and what they do is they offer to you different epistemological sources of authority. and the people do not engage in trying to figure things out for themselves. Not at all. Okay. And so given that reality, what happens is that when you introduce into that setting a national security state, such as we did at the end of World War II, where we set up a central intelligence agency and that their job is to deceive people and to try to engage in a greedy, average. world domination endeavor, you know, and view themselves in this dialectic with the Soviet communism, who they think is trying to take over the world too, and they're projecting their shadows on each other,

Starting point is 02:56:53 you know, and you start to distort reality intentionally. Yes. And then what they do is they target the epistemological sources of authority and penetrate them. What I've been doing all the time is I just take in the information, take in the information, store it away, put it in the card up on the wall. Do you know what Dr. Eric Walker is? No. Well, there was a, you know, Robert Sarbacher? Do you know that name?

Starting point is 02:57:24 Sarbacher is a guy who's an atomic energy expert, and he was working at the Washington National Labs. There were rumors that maybe had taken over parts of, you know, the Manhattan Project post-Ophenheimer in the 50s. And he was closely coordinated with Thomas Townsend Brown, and he was definitely involved in some weird stuff. You know, he would put cameras on these sort of modified V2s, and they would try to take photos of UFOs. It was a Sisyphian effort that didn't end up sort of working out. In 1987, this UFO researcher named William Steinman writes to him, and he says, you know, was there actually a UFO program I need to know, blah, blah, blah, blah. and Sarbacher says the rumors about the UFO crashes are fundamentally correct, quote-unquote.

Starting point is 02:58:11 And I say that because fundamentally correct was actually kind of nomenclature between him and Thomas Townsend Brown where if you say substantially correct or fundamentally correct, you were saying you're probably right on the surface level, but you're wrong on like just about everything else or something. Right. And then he goes on to say, you know, but, you know, von Neumann, Oppenheimer, Van Neumann, Van Nuiman, Vannevar Bush were all involved in this core program in the 40s and 50s. And I actually do know a guy who might, you know, be able to point you in the right direction right now.

Starting point is 02:58:45 And he describes a guy who kind of matches the description of this guy, Dr. Eric Walker, who's an engineer at, and he's actually the president of Penn State. And so they go and they go into Eric Walker's office. And they're like, do you know anything about the UFO stuff? And he looks at them. Just cold call, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He just approached him.

Starting point is 02:59:08 Yeah, right here. I just happened to walk in and ask you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he probably maybe had office hours because of the university president's probably used to meeting people. And he starts, he gets like kind of shocked, but then he kind of regains his composure and he goes, yeah, I've known about this for a long time. And he's like, but I would know if you guys were clued in and I know you're not.

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American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - The Man Involved In Every American Conspiracy | Danny Sheehan

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