American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive

Episode Date: February 21, 2026

Our American Alchemist this week is Clas Svahn. Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals! MudWtr: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code JESSE at mudwtr.com/JESSE! #mudwtrpod The Perfect Jean: The Perfect Jean: F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code JESSE15 at https://theperfectjean.nyc/JESSE15 #theperfectjeanpod -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [e-mail] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 04:28 Archives of the Unexplained 30:56 Time Travel Insights 39:01 Betty Hill's Hidden Past 53:12 Water Landings and UFOs 56:07 Sensitive DOD Archives Revealed 57:53 UFO Encounters and Eyewitness Accounts 1:01:38 Military Radar and UFO Sightings 1:05:28 Personal UFO Experiences 1:11:56 The Quest for Truth in UFO Research 1:18:35 Edgar Mitchell and Parapsychology 1:24:15 The Mystery of Astronaut Sightings 1:31:05 Shared UFO Experiences 1:36:00 The Complexity of UFO Photos 1:41:03 The Importance of Stories in UFO Cases 1:50:44 Lessons Learned from Decades of Research Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. It's not only a UFO library. It's about the unknown. So how many countries do you have files from? Oh, I don't know. I have no answer to that, but we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files. Wow.

And they went out in the field. and brought back debris. What? From this crashed object. They were standing on the other edge of this carriage, and they had very tight helmets, small, small heads, and some gloves. She was eight meters from them.

Meet Klaus Vann, journalist, author, and one of the world's most impressive UFO researchers. He's a real-life, Swedish Fox Mulder. and that's because he's basically in possession of the modern X-Files. I'm not kidding. Since the early 1970s, Spahn has not only reported on the phenomena for Sweden's largest newspaper, but he's spent decades building, organizing, and preserving what is widely recognized as the world's largest UFO archive, the archives of the unexplained. This 16-room building houses detailed witness reports,

photographs, audio recordings, radar data, video, and original first-generation documents that no longer exist anywhere else. Time travel? There's a time travel section? What is this, Brown and Bridge? Townsend Brown. Yeah. I went to Eureka, California.

I met with this guy in his garage. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderland Science Research Association. What? There's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s. In this episode, we go over a half century of overlooked evidence.

Radar tracked objects executing impossible right angle turns. Military helicopters nearly colliding with wingless craft. Sonar and radar returns. And of course, covert European UFO crash retrieval operations. We discussed the Swedish ghost rocket craze of the 1940s, a swarm of at least 1,400 documented rocket and cigar-shaped UFOs descending on Norway and Sweden, never landing on the ground, always plunging into water.

A swarm that even caused the Swedish government to form a specialized military unit, an American president Eisenhower to send his top general James Doolittle to investigate. Klaus Svon isn't just an archivist. He's a field investigator in his own right, interviewing experiencers and witnesses at the very center of UFO history. He spent a lot of time with Betty Hill of the famous Barney and Betty Hill 1961 abduction case in New Hampshire. Everybody knows about this canonical abduction story. But Klaus dug a little deeper and found out that Betty, outside of her abduction, witnessed a UFO crash near her home.

She even recovered the debris, which she went on to bury in her backyard, where it still might be to this day. I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today. Yes. But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger. Yes. That is moving into the future. This episode is one of the hardest core summaries of evidence for you.

UFOs I've ever heard. When you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural? Yes, yes. But I don't want to talk about it. I brought my buddy of Marc-Candiel from Yes Theory to the archives and we had a blast. What is your top UFO photo? Without further ado, please enjoy this week's Swedish alchemist, Klaus Svon. Existence cannot longer be denied.

Class, we're back. Thank you for being here again. Thank you for having us, rather. We're at the beautiful archives of The Unexplained. This is just one of 16 rooms and it's packed to the brim full of documents. And so, yeah, it's just so exciting. It's like being a kid in a candy store and you've compiled all of this. We started in 1973. You started in 1973.

We've been around for a while. That's amazing. So you've been literally compiling things since 1973. Yeah, that's right. That's incredible. I want to start with something you have in your hand. Oh, yeah. What is that?

This one. It's a metallic, a piece of metallic. He's from Sweden, an island called Vedder, northeast of Stockholm. Okay. In 1957, two carpenters were driving their car in the middle of the night, really, because they were doing some work on Monday. This was Sunday. And suddenly they saw this object coming from east, moving in front of the car, making a U-turn,

and suddenly hanging in front of the car which was totally died. So the car stopped and those two guys were sitting in the car and looking at the object and suddenly it went away exactly the same way as it came. So they went out of the car and took a look. look at this road and they found this object there and it was hot so they couldn't really hold it in their hands. It was so hot so it was really burning them. And the car started and they drew away. After many years this was analyzed and I also analyzed it and it's tungsten, all warfram carbide. This is very earthly. This has every impurity that

It was in tungsten in 1957, but tungsten is a very good leader of heat. So this should have been cold in the middle of the night. So the object affected it. So it was so hot. So it corroborates the story of the two carpenters. So it's evidence. And the car couldn't have made this tungsten hot? You think it was definitely that?

No, it was in front of the car. It was impossible, really. It must have been quite the heat to do that. That's amazing. So that's interesting. That's fine. Can I hold it? Absolutely.

It does feel oddly, you know, very, very smooth, but I'm sure that is also a natural element of tungsten. It is, it is. And you have another object beside you that I brought with me. Yeah, this is actually from outer space. This is not earthly, but it is prosaic. What is this? This is a piece of an asteroid that crashed in Arizona 50,000 years ago. Okay.

You can still see the crater. It's a big museum at the rim of the crater. It's a one kilometer, so it's a huge crater. You can see it from space. It's very, very heavy. It's 99% iron and little nickel and some other elements. Wow. So you can tell if something like this, and from the beginning it was huge, of course.

Yeah. Like a London bus or something like that. If that had hit a city, of course there were the cities in 50 times. thousand years ago. But today, the city would be gone. Mm. How much, can I feel it? How much of UFO crashes do you think are, this is amazing, it's so heavy. How much of UFO crashes do you feel are physical events, nuts and bolts,

material gets left behind, you can have a crash retrieval team going looking for it and finding a thing and trying to reverse engineer it? Do you think a high percentage of them are? I mean, you know, we looked for one in Norway. Yeah, we did. The fact. But the witnesses, I mean, it landed and it sank. Yes.

And in 1946, as we talked about the ghost rockets, the military were looking for them in several different lakes around Sweden. All they found were indentations at the bottom. Not a single debris, not anything, not anything like that or like the Vedder piece. So it is really strange. I know that some of those UFOs, as we're talking about, could just vanish without the trace. Do you know of any, because this is an interesting question. I think the audience often wonders, you know, in the U.S. there are all these rumors of reverse engineering

and crash retrievals of UFOs. You know, Roswell's like the kind of archetypal example of 1947 July. But the crashes often seem to occur around nuclear. sites, possibly because there is this sort of nuclear connection. Do you know of any crash retrievals or even reported crash retrievals where vigilante citizen who's interested in UFOs goes and finds actual material themselves? Not here in Scandinavia. And the thing is, I don't really understand why should those objects crash that often? They are traveling presumably through space

and they are crashing. Not all the time, but quite often. I mean, the UFO enigma to me is much more complex and I'm not sure really that we are dealing with like those physical objects all the time. We are from time to time. I talked to Swedish radar observers that have told me about objects that

huge speeds over Sweden. And of course, they are physical, but some are not. Yes. So where in between could we distinguish this is one of our UFO, hardware, this is something else? Yeah. I'm not sure. Do you believe there are government crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs?

Not here in Sweden that I'm sure about, but in 1946 we had. Yeah. They were out, the government sent the military out to several different lakes and tried to find those crashed objects. You showed us photos. Yeah. Yeah. But do you think in the U.S. there's an official program around these things? I'm not sure.

I mean, I have my expertise here in Sweden, really. Of course, the military should be interested to find hardware if there is any kind of strange object. Yeah, you'd have to dedicate resources to even try. Yeah, absolutely. It could be Chinese, could be Russia, it could be something completely different. But I think your authorities would be interested. You know, people know of Heseldon in Norway as a UFO hotspot. What in your mind are maybe the top five UFO hotspots in Europe? I mean, Hestan is interesting from many aspects first.

In the 1980s, early 1980s, we and you, New for Norway had this huge expedition there and we could take pictures of them. We can also see them on radar once. But the thing is nowadays in Hestdalen, when you see something on a scientific instrument, the light, the thing is coming up from the ground, going upwards. Never the other way. We have in Sweden Dalarna, which is in the middle of Sweden, where we have had several waves of UFO observations.

We have a place on the island of Gotland called Martebo, where people go to a certain stretch of a road watching for lights coming, wandering on this road. But we also know we have been there, we have traveled around and drove our own cars, and they are shouting, oh, that is the object. But it was our car. So there's really no place you can go here in Scandinavia to be sure to see something,

except Hessdalen if you stay long enough. So that's really the UFO hotspot? Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's been that for many years. And the thing is about Hessdalen, even though most of the things you see are lights in the sky, if you talk to the people there, they can tell you ordinary UFO stories as well, with crafts and sometimes even beings. Yeah, we were there and it was not, it was very easy to tell that an extremely high percentage of people that live there had experienced things.

Like upwards of 80, 85, 90% of people. And that was all of the report. And everybody had family members and they'd experienced things. It was ubiquitous, pretty much. Several people in Norway, they have experience stuff like that's seeing things, but they don't, they have to tell it. because I'm afraid to being... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's why I know when you speak to other people,

have you seen anything unnatural? Yes, yes, but I don't want to talk about it. You could almost flip the percentages in any other place where if you were to pull people, they would say, you know, maybe 10, 15% would be open about, you know, it's the opposite. In Hestel and you're the pariah if you haven't. You know, see an EEOO or something.

I mean, we knocked doors and talked to 1,600 Swedes, and 10% of them had seen something. That's remarkable. It was only one of them who didn't want to talk with us. The other ones were very open. Okay. And the interesting thing is that we have 22,000 case files from Sweden here at AFU. Yeah.

And presumably one million Swedes, 10% of around 11 million. Wow. I've seen something. Wow. And last night I talked with a lady who wrote me a letter. And she, for the first time, told anyone outside her family about something happened in 1971, in October, 1971. And she was bicycling in a small city in the middle of Sweden.

It was daylight. And the train was coming. And this is so strange, you know. This is typically strange for me. Back in the day, I used to chug coffee like I was prepping for a quantum jump, but then I'd crash like my nervous system got slingshotted through a kaleidoscope. Anxiety spiking, aura flickering, and REM sleep never met her. It was like drinking battery acid on an empty stomach. Then I found mudwater.

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how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. On this train, there was a carriage with scrap metal. Piled. She saw two men on that looking for something. They have some like backpacks, but it was not backpacks. It was, they had like suits like the Superman. Yeah.

But one color only, silver color, with something protruding out of it. their back and she watched them and suddenly they were standing on the other edge of this carriage looking at her and they were holding their hands on on the belt with a small box and they had very tight helmet small small heads and some gloves and she was so frightened she was eight meters from them. Just very, very close. And suddenly, I mean, she went away, and they went away

and carried on with whatever they were doing. And it was nearly impossible to walk that distance on this carriage because it was so much scrap metal. So they just traveled over the metal in a way and were standing there. And she turned around, and you could see they were still working, looking for something on this.

Wow. Interesting. Super strange. Did she speculate as to who they were, where they were from at all? I mean, she started to read about UFOs and nowadays he's over 70 years of age and he looks on YouTube and whatever. But she asked me what I thought and I said to her, this is for me a typical encounter with strange beings because it's not typical. You're right. So they're so different, so diverse. So it's typical for things to be unable to categorize. Yeah, for me, if you really take a look at all of the spectrum, you will find that. That's what Jacques Valet, you know, John Keel, a lot of these UFO researchers, once you get past a certain point, you get into this idea that the phenomena conceals itself with this absurdity element.

that is injected into every experience. Absurdity is the world, you know. That's a key word. It's really absurd. And so it's so absurd that it pre-stigmatizes itself. Like the story you just told me of men in a garbage pile, seemingly doing the most low-tech thing, wearing the most high-tech suits,

teleporting from can to can or whatever. Sounds insane. Yeah. But I'm sure that happened, you know. And so that seems to be this very common theme. this trickster element. Do you think that that's at play here? This idea that the phenomena almost wants to cover itself. In a way, in a way I agree with you, because there are so many high strangeness cases. So the other ones, you say, oh, this is typically Whitley-Srieber alien.

They're not very common here in Sweden. You can get them. But if you're really dig into all this, the pile of observations, you are finding so many other stories. When you were talking about the sighting where the woman saw the being with the backpack thing protruding and the suit, it reminded me of a friend of a friend's account. So my best friend's sister's best friend, she was in Mexico, in Bahia, I think, and just like sunset taking photos of, she was. was drinking like a Corona beer, she's taking a photo of it with the sunset behind. And maybe half an hour later as she goes through the photo, as she goes through the photo, she sees something very, very similar to what this woman is.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. She drew it. So she was very scared to show the photo, but she drew it for me. And then we were going to get on the phone so that she can show me the photo just like via Zoom. And I think she had cold feet. And I can't tell if it's true that the photo disappeared from her. phone, but she, that's what she says.

Yeah. And she just says, like, she can't find it anymore. But it was in one of the photos. And again, she was looking at what she was taking a photo off. She didn't see it with her own eyes, but it appeared on the photo. I mean, that is so interesting because some of those aliens are carrying equipment. Yeah. Some or not. Yeah. And it's literally like what you were describing. Yeah, yeah, it is. That's amazing. That's so crazy with the little backpack and the jumpsuit. I was saying it was like some sort of a metal detector thing and they're on the beach in Mexico. It's like what is...

So weird. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's almost like a gonzo movie or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absurd. That's absurd. Showtime. Yeah.

But speaking of photos that were taken where the person didn't even witness what ended up being seen in the photo, they accidentally took a photo of a, in this case, an amazing UFO. This is Klaus's new book, Files of the Unexplained. And do you want to tell us a little bit about this photo? Yeah, it's taken by Hannah Mac Roberts, which we should see if we can find it in here, so we can have a bigger picture of it. I don't remember which page there it was.

Yep. I mean, look at that. So this is Vancouver Island. And you've met her, right? I talk with her on telephone. So what's the story behind this photo? She was out driving together with her husband, and she stopped.

This mountain is quite well known. It was October the 8th, 1981. And she thought that the cloud seemed a little nice over the top of the mountain. So she took this picture and coming home later on and got the, because it's an old film, it's not a detailed film, it's an old camera. She found that there was something up in the air. And it really looks like a proper flying saucer with a dome. Do you think this photo is real?

I think it's real. I'm not sure how it ended up there, but I talked with her a couple of times, and I mean, she didn't fake it anyway. I think she's really doing this because she's curious about it, but she don't understand. She seems very earnest to you and not no grifting or lying vibes. Absolutely not.

She helped us with a picture, no problem with that. I mean, it's like this very famous picture, you know, this with Elizabeth, this little girl sitting there with a nice dress and her father out in this moor. There were only them. His wife,

a little girl, took the picture and when he got it back from the photographer in the business, you could see this creature standing behind Elizabeth. So the guy who developed, he said, wow, I'm sorry, but this nice picture of Elizabeth

is ruined. Somebody stands, Behind her, it's called the astronaut because this looks like an astronaut. And nobody knows how it ended up there. Out on this mort, only them, only three of them, free horizon. Whoa. What are the most, because if you look at the free Edgar Mitchell database in the US, abductees or experiencers, over 50% experienced humanoid creatures. So creatures that seem to be bipedal walking up right.

Yeah. Almost similar to humans in many ways. Yeah. Is that similar to what you experience in Scandinavia? I mean, we got stories from people that have seen like books-like entities floating. No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet.

So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks co-pilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs to help him see if he can afford it. Copilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now, Hank says, line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Co-Pilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365 copilot.com slash work. So you get it all. If you are into this for a couple of decades, wow.

You will find that this is more complex. It's not only humanoids. So interesting. So, yeah, Alien is such a simplistic, it's such an over. oversimplification. I think so. The idea that's like, oh, we're not alone. They're out in space and they've come here or whatever. It makes us understand it. We want to understand strange things. Yes. Well, it's true. I mean, when you look at, you know, it's funny, everybody references in the U.S. The 2017 article from Leslie Kane, which outed, you know, Ossap or whatever, the program at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012.

And before that, you had Bigelow studying at Skinwalker Ranch. And everybody talks about that. Like, oh, that's the official alien investigation program. And if you look at what they were doing at Skinwalker Ranch, it's like they're picking up weird electromagnetic signals, they're poltergeists, there's like a werewolf. And that's how some of the anti-UFO people try to show they think it's like all crazy or whatever. But it's actually just a way less simple phenomena than, you know, you can't memeify it into this simple, you know, it's just a gray alien.

and they're from Zeta Rituculi, they're going to appear at some point in the future. It's this game of Wackamel, and it's deeply embedded with human consciousness as well. It's a good summary, I think. I mean, you must really look very broad at this. And that's why I have you here. It's not only a UFO library.

It's about the unknown. So how do you make, because you have done this sheer Herculean effort where you have 16 of the room that we're in, which is filled to the brim, with documents. How do you make progress in a field where what we just described, it's almost like Descartes' demon,

where your whole perceptive apparatus, everything you see is at the discretion of possibly some of these entities showing up in random places. And it's like, how do you progress in a field where it's like we're chimps and we're trying to study humans. You know, how do you progress? It is very difficult to do that.

Yeah. So most geophologists are looking at a particular small part of the subject. And if you do like this, you will never get ready with what you're doing. Right. Because it's so very much more complex than your thought from the beginning. So most euphologists are saying, okay, this is not interesting. I'm looking at that. Yes.

And I think that's not the way forward really. But even beyond that, like I look at like, you know, Jacques Valet, who we were talking about earlier, one of the best theorists on the topic, you know, for French godfather of a lot of modern years. Amazing guy. And, you know, on par with you as far as all your encyclopedic knowledge, he, you know, like, if you read some of his early books, like Invisible College or something in 19, Are we that much farther as far as the theory as to what's happening than he was then? No, I don't think so either.

That's sad really. It is. And it's really impossible to get further because it's so huge. Yes. And there is no really good scientific approach to this yet. We have certain scientists that are interested in this, but they are looking at their small bits and pieces as well. Would one new scientific model involve, you know, science is supposed to be, you're supposed to be this impartial observer, and then you have the observed, and there's a, you know, clear, distinct separation between those two. But maybe in this new model, your own consciousness or orientation towards the subject somehow matters.

Absolutely. I met with a friend of mine who is a doctor, and he's also very much into the human consciousness research. He's done research on twins and see what happened if a twin is hurt and if the other is affected. And he found that, yes, there are clear indications that twins are interacting without knowing that. Wow. And he really says to me that the human consciousness is a big part even of the UFO phenomena. It has to be. And I think so as well. Yes.

Are you familiar with studies in parapsychology and that sort of thing? Yeah. Because if there is some sort of mind-matter interaction, then that obviously has to affect, you know, what we see. Yeah. We know so little about us inside our heads. Yes. It's a gray mass, but that's not the answer. Do you think, you know, when you speak to Jacques Ville, he says, you know, I would be very disappointed to find that these were just beings from another planet?

From my own point of view, I'm going to be very disappointed. If UFOs turn out to be nothing more, then visit us. from another planet because I think there could be something much more interesting. It doesn't have to do as much with space as it might have to do with space time itself, where time, seems like time travel is this big theme in a lot of his writings and, you know, when he speaks and stuff. Is that something you've thought about at all? Yeah, absolutely.

I don't think the answer to the UFO question is one. I think there are many different answers on different parts of this huge complex. So it's very hard for, say, a scientist to approach this with an astronomer. They will only look at this very small part. They need to be a group of scientists and geologists or whatever doing this together. Time travel. Time travel? There's a time travel section?

No, what? Time and time travel? What? Time loops and space twists. Let's see if I can find the Wendell Steve and stuff. I have no clue. Now I will crush. Crush Amar.

I just can't. You can spare it from it. This is the NASA scientist. Oh, wow. Dude. So you can see here if you read the labels here. Corliss. Yeah, William Corliss.

He wrote this series of books called Sourcebook Project. Ah. Only about Enigmas. So. So here you can see his working papers. Then he passed away and I contacted his widow and it took me a couple of years. Was he at all like, was there any part of his official work at NASA that overlapped with UFOs? No.

No. It was just a hobby. Yeah. This is what they look like. Biological anomalies, mammals. Oh my God. This guy's a genius. Yeah.

Who is this guy? It was a genius. This is amazing. We corresponded for many years. Then he passed. Wow. And then I wrote to his. state, hunting with his son. And his wife was 90 plus. And she started to compile everything in order

for us. Wow. And we sent two pallets from the US. Oh, she's amazing. Yeah. And this behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world, Borderland Science Research Association, BSRA. What? That's the most interesting UFO organization. Because they knew, you know, they knew about crashing. sometimes before they would happen. Like, there's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s. Yeah. About stuff.

They were first. So what's their deal? Because they were funded by that guy, the mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician. Yeah. So, oh, and then they had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did. I went to Eureka, California.

I met with this guy. Danish garage and we packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Wow. And you have Tesla and... What is this? Brown and Bridge? It's probably correspondence. Who's Brown? Maybe Townsend Brown. I don't sure. He can take a look. I don't know. The immortal cell? Ron Brown. Oh, Townsend Brown? Yeah. Yeah. You can take a look and see what this is. It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking.

solo. New Year, no phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees, a UFO, and stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me, but better. Same face, same great hair. But something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect gene. And they start at just $79, six fits, sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, 2026 me, where's the perfect genes? They don't crush my thighs or my dreams. They're soft, but dangerous. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off their first order plus free shipping at theperfectgene.n.com, or just Google the perfect gene and use code Jesse 15 for 15. For 15,

15% off. That's 15% off for new customers at the perfect gene. NYC with promo code Jesse 15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Here, kackies, and get the perfect gene. T.T. Brown Electrokinetic generator. Here, look, that's amazing. Patent Office for the Electrokinetic Generator. Well, the Borderland Society, they had connections with Brown. They had some apparatus still left in the garage that I couldn't bring.

But I'm not sure if they're functioning. But I think they are still left in Eureka. Really? What apparatus? Yeah, I don't really know. It's like big boxes with switches. Really? What?

Yeah. I want to check that out. I'm more interested in him than anyone else. Yeah, I understand. I read a book about him just a couple months ago. The Man Who did you think? I think it was fascinating. It's fascinating, right?

Yeah. Isn't he the most interesting man? So many mysteries around him. So many mysteries around him. He was onto something. I think so. I think there's something very interesting about him. Townsend Brown.

Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. There's a guy named Townsend Brown. Okay, okay, Townsend Brown. I want to look that up. The Holy Grail of physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces, which includes finding a missing link between electromagnetism and gravity.

Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematically. It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long-sought link. Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most? I grew up with the Bonney and Betty Hill case, of course, and that was hugely important to me. And when I met Betty many years ago in the early middle of the 80s, I got a... quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses. What was your new view on her when you met with her?

Yeah, well, I was, most geophologists, and if you read the books, it says that Petty Hill was not interested in UFOs at all, before the encounter the Indian head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she was. Really? And not only that. She told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her,

her, I think it was sister, whatever. It was a relative. And something came crossing the sky and crashed. And they went out in the field and brought back debris. What? From this crashed object. A few years ago, before this happened, this was in the 50s, I was over here in Maine, visiting with the family.

And with a warm night, and we were sitting outdoors on the porch. when we saw what we thought at that time was a plane very slowly going across the sky. And while we're watching it, it exploded, mid-air and bird. Now, we said, you know, we've seen a plane blow up. We turned on the radio, we turned on the TV. Nothing. Wow. Up to my, by my mother's.

My nephew had seen this burning debris come down from the sky. He watched it and when it cooled off, he got some of them. My sister gave some pieces to me and said, no, we don't know what it is. I had some friends at the university. Maybe you could get someone to analyze it. So I had all these pieces and I had them in the closet there on the top shop. And, you know, I didn't find anybody to analyze them. So just before, about four days before we left to go on the trip, Bonnie said, what's

that stuff above the talk shelf? Why don't it just throw it away? We could use the shelf. Well, I was having some fill put it in the backyard. So I took the pieces and I threw them in the backyard and when they dumped the sand, they covered them. And about three days later, we'd go on the trip. Really? Betty Hill.

Yeah. And she brought it before her encounter? Yeah. Everything is still out there in the garden. So we got to go to her house. You must dig there. I will. Yeah, it's not her house anymore.

But it's in New Hampshire? It's in Portsmouth. In Portsmouth, New Hampshire. No way. So that story, you can listen to at at Iafjou's website. I have this conversation with her. It's in writing, and you can hear her voice telling this. But the bottom line is she was very much into UFO.

That's fascinating. We got to go dig. And not the single you follow this really cares about this. They don't want to know this. Her granddaughter is a UFC fighter. And I think she's friends with Joe Rogan and has gone on the show. So maybe contact her. Say, hey, who are the residents of the current house?

This is on you. We can go dig and find this thing. You're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill. Oh, geez. Oh, geez. First abductees, 1961. No, I know his granddaughter. Yeah, she's Angela Hill, right? She's a UFC fighter?

Yeah. So cool. Crazy. What does she say? She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over there. You don't tell Joe Rogan? Her grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, no, that's mad.

That's amazing. She should do that. She was a lovely lady, I should say. And she told a very interesting story. And also when she drew the object to me. It looks like a box with sharp edges and big windows and a brim, like a hat. Wow. And you believed her?

Did you feel like she was being honest with you? Yeah, she was absolutely honest with me. And as I said, she was a very nice lady. She treated us with a sponge cake, and we were there all day and spoke with her. But it complicated the story. Yeah. Just for the audience, the core story is, in 1966. Betty and Barney Hill. They were an interracial couple, and they were ACLU activists, actually,

and they were on a road trip from, I think it was like Niagara Fall, or they were in Canada, they were coming back down to New Hampshire, and on the way, they see this craft, and it's flying around, and I believe there's audio, and we'll play the audio for the audience, but like Barney starts to, like, go after the saucer, like, almost like, it's like he's locked into it, And it's like she's afraid and wants to keep going. And then he's very afraid after that. So he don't want to pursue it. All right.

I'll take my head this boy. Pull herodiacalus away. God, give me a stress. All right. Oh, now. Run. Holy met up and down. God.

It's like, God. Give me a chance. I got to get away. Oh. Oh. So anyways, they. meet these beings, they say they're from Zeta reticuli, they have these uniforms on, these little gray beings,

they get taken up on the craft. Reluctantly, I believe Barney then admits that samples were taken, like gametes were taken, sperm cells from him. So it almost felt like some sort of like experiment being done on them. They checked on his teeth and there were false teeth because he had false teeth. Ah, interesting. And they came running into Betty and asking, oh, what's it that?

Interesting. That's the interesting thing about those aliens. They don't seem to know anything about anything. I mean, you should think that they should know. Right. Yeah. But in that account, it almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's not like this routine thing.

But they also do this pregnancy test on Betty with a needle. And that was old here at that point, really. I mean, it's not very high tech. Nobody does that anymore. So why do aliens from satirically use a method that is ancient?

What do you think? I think this is not visitors in that way. And this was only told during hypnosis. Yes, later, hypnotic regression. They never really remembered it in the waking. So what do you think they had an encounter with?

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that bring it all together. Shop spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot. Now through May 6th, Exclusion supplies to homedipo.com slash price match for details. It's very hard to tell, But I think that all those stories are much more complicated.

Much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth. Right. She told Barney about her interest in that. And he didn't like that at all. But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them when in fact what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean, if the being said were from Zeta reticuli, that does point.

Well, they didn't say that because that was the start. She drew a star map. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the star map is, of course, you can do that with lots of stars. Right. So it's not. But they said we're from another star system. Yeah, yeah. She asked about this map on the wall. And they told her that this was commercial lines where they were traveling to make business. Yeah. I believe, have you read American Cosmic by Dana Pesolka? Or are you familiar with it? So she talks about the CBS show Outer Limits, playing... That was at that time, really. Playing 11 days, premiering, 11 days before this encounter that Benny and Barney Hill had. That show and the crashed metal debris in her cupboard. That had happened before. So it's so many things before.

So we cannot really be sure exactly how they interpreted things during hypnosis. Right. Well, Pesolka also says that the aliens in outer limits have... eyes that wrap around their heads and that's what they see as well so it's almost as if their perception is somewhat shaded by yeah maybe their preconceived notions and knowledge yeah so interesting yeah you know also another weird fact about that case is cd jackson charles d jackson who ran psychological warfare and was very involved in mk ultra and then went on to i believe give this Sopruder film, which is the, you know,

film of JFK getting shot with the missing frames. He gives that to Time Magazine because he's very involved in sort of a perception management for the public at the time. He's head of the psychological strategy board with Gordon Gray and a few other guys at the time. He goes and visits Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after their abduction. Okay. So interesting. So it was already like, you're talking about the,

elite of the elite of American warfare operations, a guy who's very high up in government, going to visit these two abductees so strange in 1961. Yeah. Wow. I don't know. It's not easy, you know. It's not easy. But I think we have to find that artifact.

Yeah, yeah. Have you been digging for any other artifacts? Are they any other objects? Yeah, we have here in Sweden. We have been up in the north. There was a guy who said that he was a young boy. He met this craft and aliens outside his house, and he got this thing from them, some sort of metallic tablet.

And he hid it underground. And we went there together with him, trying to find it. Wow. But we couldn't find it. Really? No. Is there anything, have you ever found any objects that you think are convinced? No, no, we haven't.

The only one that I showed you, I mean, things like that, but not any bona fide smoking gun. Do you believe that humans have in their possession on the civilian side objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with? Because as you know, Jacques Valet publishes his mailing address online. People will mail him pieces. And recently, Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan experience. And, you know, one of the pieces came from Ubutuba, Brazil, where this explosion occurred on the beach and the fishermen. Yeah, the magnesium. Exactly. Magnesium with extremely anomalous isotope ratios.

But also read that there were such things at that time. Well, I think it would have been possible to have created, but you would have needed a centrifuge. And why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge, you know, give a piece of metal to somebody in Brazil on the beach to mail to Jacques? It just feels a little crazy, but... And why do you build a spaceship with magnesium? it doesn't really, it's not very good to travel in. Oh, I'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium. Okay.

Because magnesium bismuth is a high K-dielectric. So it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly. And so if you look at like, you know, my belief is the anti-gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the byfield brown effect, been named after Townsend Brown. Yeah. And if you put a high K-dialelectric insulator in between two capacitors, one negative and one positive electrode, the thrust increases dramatically, the higher the k, the dielectric. So all of his papers include, it's two things. It's aluminum barium and magnesium bismith.

And bismith specifically is this big, this big, really important part. But I don't know, maybe magnesium itself has some issues with it. Yeah, magnesium itself is not good. But if this alloy may be something different. Well, it seems like what he found, had, it was like micron layers thinner than a human hair. Bismuth layers less than a human hair. Magnesium samples about 10 times the size of human hair. And so it was extremely thinly aligned. And I think you get these topological insulators like that

where when you excite them, you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale and you get these very sort of anomalous effects. And you even have aerospace looking into some of these things. So why do they explode over Yuba 2? So the speculation on Gary Nolan's part is that that was the exhaust. That's almost like the byproduct of the craft, and who knows, you know, but. So the exhaust should spit out metallic debris.

Yeah, I don't know. Is it something that they're using and they need that ratio to accomplish something? Or is it a byproduct of an effect where they take the natural things and then they're doing something? And this ends up being the outcome. And then when they're done with it, they go, and they throw it out. Do you hope to find a material? Do you think you can? I hope, of course, but I'm not sure I can. But if there is a report, we will of course go there and try to find it.

We are mostly focused on finding recent ghost rocket crashes. I mean, in 1980, there was a landing and an object that sank in a lake up in the very north of Sweden called Damajaro. And we have been there. And we have radar returns that something is in the mud. Really? Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

When are you going to go look? We will be there again next year. That's exciting. So hopefully we can find something. Two very good witnesses. Wow. In the middle of the day. And they can see this object coming below 100 meters.

Yeah. Flying over them. They follow it over the lake. And it turns around 180. Yeah. towards them lands with a splash and sinking and bubbles are coming up and then it's gone and then they take out the camera from their rucksack and take a picture of course it's gone but they take a picture two minutes after the object is gone they go back to stockholm and contacts the military and the

military's UFO expert at that time studi wickets he really looks into this tried to find an explanation. But they couldn't do that. And they sent an helicopter over the lake. And I met one of the pilots, and they told me, this is a natural park, natural natural park. You're not allowed to land there. But suddenly one of the passengers felt sick.

Yeah. So they land. And they can see dead fish near the shore. So take the fish with them. and think, wow, this is atomic power, some radioactivity, I killed a fish, but it was only a parasite. And we found the same dead fish when we came there many, many years later. So just a parasite? Yeah.

But the object is there. It's four meters of mud, and our expert who went with us said, if you see something, it will be not at the bottom of the lake. Yeah. But in between, two meters. and exactly there we got this return from an object that is still resting there.

We don't know what it is, but... But there is some object. Do you know the shape of the object? No, we only saw it in two dimensions. So the next trip, we will look in three dimensions. Wow.

We are not allowed to bring anything with us from this national park because it's a natural park. Yeah. So if you find something, we cannot bring it up. Well, if you need any extra media... Media coverage or help in any way.

I would love to come. I call you. That sounds amazing. It is amazing. And this is a very good observation. And we have several cases like that, that objects are like in Norway. Flying very low, turning, navigating, landing, sinking. Interesting.

And it always seems to be in water. Always water. And the thing is, which I didn't really think about until recently, that all those observations around water, of course, people are living there. It's summer. They are out. It's good observation. I mean, they could see over the lake.

But not a single one has seen any objects flying over the lake and not landing. Every single observation ends with a crash or a landing, not to fly by. It's so interesting. Why do you think that is? I mean, they want. to land they want to crash they want to pinpoint the lake that's for sure and i'm not sure why they do this do you think it's fuel uh i mean they're running out of fuel no do you think water is there for you mean that because you know the bonds between hydrogen oxygen h2 o

are impossible to break from a human perspective but if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them then they would be extremely energetic that would be be an extremely energetic reaction that could, you know, power a craft. It's like driving your car into a gas station full power and trying to get some petrol. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, they should land and be there for a while and then fly away. Right. But they are either crashing straight down.

Yeah. Or landing quite hard. Yeah, but it might be hard from our perspective and it might be refueling. I just, who knows, you know? It's interesting. I mean, they do, water just seems like this very important element, you know, the idea that they're transmedium. Water is important. It is not a single object that's crashed on land in Sweden for Norway. That's amazing, yeah, the fact that they literally only the ghost rocket phenomenon. But you're saying, because we talked about this the other week, you're saying that it was, it's not just the ghost rocket phenomena that only hits the water.

You're saying all UFOs have only hit, landed in the water. in Sweden generally. Sweden, Scandinavia. In Scandinavia? Yeah. So post 46, 47, all UFOs, that's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it is wow.

That's so interesting. And it's all nearly always, 11 o'clock, July, clear weather, hot weather. That's what you said last time. It's so wild. So strange. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's definitely some selection bias based on observer bias, because that's when people are on their lake houses.

Yeah, but actually there's some flybys. Yeah, it's weird. I don't. They only see those landings and crashes. That's so strange. But we have only a small sample. I mean, maybe 30. Still, that's the fact that, I mean, that's enough to, that's a really important trend.

You were just given access to incredibly sensitive DOD archives here in Sweden. Yeah. What did you see? I've been looking for the files from a very important military customs police operation in the early 1970s. They are still to be released in 2040, but I just the other day got the clearance to get them cleared. And did you see them? Yeah, I looked through them, but I would get a copy of them in a week or two. Well, what did you see?

The interesting thing is that I found one observation that I knew the observer, this helicopter pilot. He was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in nighttime. Very strange object, sometimes aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night he got an order to lift and go up with his helicopter. trying to intercept an object coming from Norway. And he and his co-pilot, which I will talk to next week, he was flying 20 meters over the treetops. And it was moonshine, it was snow,

so it was very, very good seeing. And suddenly this object coming, flying under the helicopter, over the treetops, and this small passage of 20 meters, and straight up in front of them an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings no lights nothing and it just flies away and it told me that I did like this I lifted my feet because it was so near

our helicopter and now when I got those documents I found this report I can see the radar plot where they are intersecting their paths. And also the note from the military... So it's picked up by radar? Yeah. Whoa.

Yeah. And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting with this guy's helicopter. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And they land after this. They're landing. What?

And the security, the military security personnel comes and debrief them. And he tells a story and they went away. What was the shape of the officer? It was an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings. So similar to the ghost rockets? Typical ghost rockets. Typical ghost rockets. What year was this?

Uh, in 1975, November the 7th. How fast was it moving, the object? It was much faster than the helicopter, but they had plenty of time to see it because of the moon and the snow on the ground. That's amazing because in the US, you have, you know, the kind of one of the holy grail events is the Tick-Tac incident at Nimitz in 2004, and you don't have radar data for that. You have forward-looking infrared, which is kind of controversial. And they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. And in this case, you have an eyewitness, and you were able to see corroboration from the DoD archives that this object intersected this helicopter at this time.

That's amazing. And I would talk to his co-pilot in a couple of days and get his view as well. So we have two witnesses, documentation, and what I'm looking for now is, of course, the security personnel's notes. Wow. I have no access to them, and I think I will not have any access to them. Well, how would you get that? I will try to get it, but... How would you get the security personnel? I know people that works within the war archives. Okay. And they can help me to say if it's there. To see if, like, he's, you know. he was actually debriefed when he came down and stuff. I'm sure he was because the whole operation was built on that.

You were debriefing people after all those events. And you've spoken to this witness firsthand? Yeah, first hand. And I talked to this helicopter pilot just a couple of days ago. As soon as I found those documentations, I called him and said, okay, now I know which date it was. I can see that they made this note that an object passed very close to the helicopter. And this is being declassified for everybody?

At what point will this be released to the public? I mean, it will be. When I'm getting it, it will be. And so when will that be, when this will be released? In a couple of weeks, I think. It all depends on how much they have to do scanning. Is the pilot in Stockholm? No.

Where is the pilot? It's far away from here. Okay. In Sweden, though. He's a really nearer Norway than Stockholm in Sweden. Yeah. Damn. The other pilot is in Australia.

Okay. Wow. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton.

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Well, that seems like an unprecedentedly important case. It is a good case. And I hope that I can really find all the pieces here. Do you have any other cases like that where you have radar corroboration for a an eyewitness sighting because that seems like very important. Yeah, we do have. I've seen with my own eyes on military radar, the UFO. Really?

Yeah. You've seen with your own eyes. And when was that? And what's the context? It was, I think, in 2005, it's what we call the first mobile picture of UFO in Sweden. It was two guys up in this cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting playing card quite late. and they hear a strange noise.

So they went out and they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them. And it's moving around this cottage. So one of them gets this mobile phone and take a picture. And you can see it's a very bright object with flashes around, but that's probably a lens flare. But it's a very bright object. And it flies around the cottage and then it values. So I go to the military radar unit, which is a very secret.

You cannot just go there, but I know people. And I can see the radar returns from this event. You can see the object coming, going around. It's amazing. So, yeah, that's the case you can cooperate. That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen, so you don't have UFO material, seen the remnants of a UFO, just like you showed me that little piece of rock where it's

interacted with a local physical environment in some way that's left in. No, not here in Sweden. Okay. Because you told me last time about lily pads being affected by the ghost rockets. And so you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment. Radar is obviously reflecting radio waves. And so that's like it's a really important, you know. And I interviewed six people at the radar station in the very nice. also Sweden. Ah, really? I found them one by one.

They were there in the winter of 1973, 1993, 1974. At that point, they had left this mountain, you know, they're deep inside the mountain. They are up on the surface at the lunch. And they are looking out

around and suddenly they see over the treetops, this cigar-shaped object, moving like this. So they are running down. into the radar equipment and look and they can see the object on their radar screens and it's doing 90 degrees angles like this and suddenly it flies away over Norway and straight up and every one of those six I found them during several years are telling the same story wow all six yeah that's amazing do you have them all on camera

and stuff? No, I have them on tape only. Well, that's good tape. The problem is that they told me that their commander in the mountain, they were asked by him to take pictures of the radar screen, so they did. Yeah. But I have found them. I don't know where there can be.

Is the tape published on your website? No, no, I never published the tape. I've written about them in my books and things like. This is Hidder Evans and his wife, Mary Evans. They are passed away now, but it's still Mary Evans Picture Library who can buy pictures, one of the biggest pictures archives in England. Cool. So half of the books you see here comes from Hillary.

Look at these books. Some of these are beautiful. Yeah, those are the classic ones really. Yeah, Frederick W.H. Myers. I have that book. And we have it in very early editions. You know what inspired him to write this book? I don't remember now.

Jesus' resurrection. He wanted to prove it using science. Well, he didn't manage that. William James was president of Society for Psychical Research, but he was close with William James and part of that. You know what this is? Yeah, of course. What do you think of this?

I think it's something military, but not what conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification, weather control. Yeah. If they're doing that, they're doing it very bad. Speaking of conspiracy theorists, you wrote a whole book on solar flares. Yeah. So what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity and that the magnetosphere of the earth might be weakening. The magnetic poles are shifting. That's proven. Yes. But the Charles Hapgood, that that creates this sort of cataclysm. No, not Charles Hapgood's theory, really. But this is the science theory is really. The science theory is really.

is solid and it could be problematic when it happens. Interesting. Because every gadget you have, like, trying to navigate with would be topsy-turvy. Yeah. And some of the solar events in the past, like the 1859 Carrington event, would wipe everything out. If that happens today, it'd be very devastating. You'd have no electronics, no Wi-Fi, no, yeah.

Your grid would be down, no running water. Yeah. And we don't have the spare parts. Yeah. So it will take months and months and months to rebuild the electrical system. Do you think that solar flares send with them a message or there's any sort of intelligent, you know, there's a scientist in the UK. He's in London in Hampstead outside of London named Rupert Sheldrick. And he writes about the sun being conscious.

Yeah. He wrote a Gaia book in the 1970s. Yeah. I grew up with that and I know about Rupert Sheldrick very well. Yeah. No, I don't think the sun is conscious. I think it's a star. Uh-huh.

And the star does what the star does. Yep. And the earth is not important to the star. Yes, but okay, if I were to push back, maybe. The magnetosphere of the earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like you could put a frog embryo in a fair day cage and it won't grow correctly. if you put it next to a Wi-Fi router, it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the Schumann resonance,

which is part of the anthropic principle, allows things to grow. And then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of mutations to allow for, you know, biological evolution. Like if evolution were too fast, it wouldn't be adaptive. And if it was too slow, it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that Howe Putoff is exploring around the possibility of a scalar field.

The NASA and the DOE just published a podcast around scalar physics. And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun and they move in ways that don't decay or attenuate over space time like your traditional transverse Hertzian wave. So you could have some sort of communication, you know, to, life on Earth via the sun. I don't think it's communication. I think it's what the star does. I mean, every star does things like that and they are not aware of it. They only do their thing. But of course, it affects the life on Earth, absolutely. Yes. But you could say something very similar about a human through a materialist reductionist lens. You could say we're, ultimately, we have the illusion of consciousness, but we're not conscious. And so,

You know, we'll never know. I never know, of course. I think it's quite a big difference between us and the sun or... It's impossible to say, though. I mean, clearly, yes, phenomenologically. But, you know, are we anthropocentricly cutting off consciousness, you know, at a certain scale because that's our scale? You know, I don't know. We are a tiny fraction of the universe, so...

Yes. This is my friend Frederick Uldahl. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him? No. Ah, he's cool. Amar and I met him, actually.

Was it, it was two summers ago. This was right before we did the David Grush thing. So how many countries do you have files from? Oh. I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files. Wow.

I went to Russia once trying to say the KGB files. And when I went there, it was fighting in the street. There were soldiers everywhere, they were shooting. But we were able to find a guy who had copies of some of the KGB files. Amar, do you have any, there's anything coming up for you? You can see if you have spent decades doing this and I'm just curious why. Yeah, why am I doing this? Because I'm very curious about how our world functions.

I want to know what people really see. I want to get to the bottom of this mystery. And I've done that on several and several cases. I know what they saw. But there are a couple of hundred cases during the years that I'm still very baffled about. But I don't want to prove anything. I have no axe to grind. I'm not a believer.

I'm just a curious researcher that I'm aware of that the answers could, be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning. Is there something autobiographical, whether it's synchronicities you experience, something in your own life that keeps you going, where when you're thinking of maybe stopping or quitting, something... I'm quite stubborn, you know. What's that? I'm stubborn.

It sounds like you are. Yeah, and I'm a natural researcher really from the beginning. I'm amateur astronomer and all that. I was chosen the educator of the year here in Sweden. It's amazing. So people know that I really try very hard. And of course it's okay to believe, but I want to know. Yeah.

And when you say no, what is that if you were to instantiate that in something very specific? Yeah, I want to know what happened really. I'm not sure I want... So do you want an alien being to come down and tell you? Do you want a material where you're like, this is definitely a UFO? In every single case, I want to know what happened. Oh, that's tough, man. It's tough. It's tough.

I even think about what people talk about as disclosure. And it's like if a craft were right here and it had isotope ratios that were weird and technology that we don't really understand as far as anti-gravity, some, you know, heavy element reactor thing, what would that do for us? Like, what does that that would be? Change everything, of course. It would change everything, but it would beget a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like, you know, your whole I want to know. It wouldn't be like, I know now. It'd be like, tell me what is going on.

It's impossible. As you say, every knowledge gets some new questions. That's true. Knowledge, questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge growing. So it's like you can think of knowledge like a volume in like a cylinder or a sphere or something. The more the sphere grows. the questions grow, you know, the outside at an exponent. And so the more you know, the less you know.

And that really should be sort of with everything. But then you have these sort of stultified fields, which is how, you know, academia teaches it, where it's like this received wisdom. And it's like the law of thermodynamics. And it's like, you know, you get to the end of the chapter and it's, that's it. You know, the end of it.

But nothing is that simple. I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain on knowledge today. Yes. But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger. Yes. That is moving into the future. That's beautiful. And suddenly we are a little higher up, but there is always a new mountain.

Are there any philosophers in the UFO space or even outside of UFOs who you think speak most to the UFO question or researchers that you're really inspired by? Yeah, I'm inspired by, of course, we had said Jacques Valé, but Chris Obeck is a very, very good researcher. He's the best researcher when it comes to old cases. Yes.

It's fantastic. His books are fantastic. And one of his latest books called Sorcers shows that the saucer shape is so scarce, it's not very much reported. Yes. Still people talk about flying saucers sometimes and think that it should be social like.

But it's only a fraction of all the observations. Yeah. Are social-like. Yeah, even if you look at where the saucer came from, you know, the Kenneth Arnold case, it wasn't really saucers. No. They kind of look more like Horton Wing. Yeah, there were crescents. Cresents, yeah.

Like ninja stars or something. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting. Do you think, you know, Carl Jung wrote a book about flying saucers? Are you familiar with this? Yeah, I read it. Yeah. And he said that, you know, that it was the mandala, which was the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness, is represented in the UFO. The archetype he talks about them. In a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to UFO research. Yeah. But of course, if you're living in society, in a society, you are telling the stories that society can manage to listen to. Yes. And we are conforming all the time.

So it's not strange that those airships in the 1800s. Yes. And full fighters and then ghost rockets and now spaceships. It's just that we are using the words we have the most high-tech thing we can think of. So I don't think it must be anything of that. But what's also just John Mack, you know, Harvard, you know, head of the psychiatry department there, he would say that the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create.

So it is in some ways... Even things all really, I think. Yeah. So in some ways you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. But in other ways, it's actually like leading technology itself. Like airships were just starting to be a thing, but they weren't really a thing in the 1890s. So maybe they're inspiring technological innovation.

And you can say the same about the sci-fi writers, you know. Yes. They have been leading many of the guys who got us to the moon. Yes. They read the sci-fi first. Oh, yeah. And they were inspired by that and thought, wow, this could be done. Yes.

So you need that element to be able to take an extra stuff. that. You absolutely do. And I think, yeah, you need the mythological element almost always supersedes the actual doing of the thing. But I think we've lost that for at least a little period after World War II, maybe an hour. It seems like things are speeding up again. I mean, after the World War II, we were occupied with other stuff, really. Yes. Building the world again. So, yeah, the dreaming were maybe put in the drawer for a while. Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves

that interacts at all with the UFO phenomenon in a deeper way than meets the eye? I don't think so. No, I don't think so. Because you said he spent some time with Edgar Mitchell, right? Yeah, yeah. So Edgar Mitchell is the sixth man to walk on the moon. Yeah. Apollo 14 on the way back from the moon.

He had this sort of parapsychological conversion where he... One experiment with the Swedish guy, really. Ah, really? Tell me about it. Yeah, they had managed to put this program that Edgir Mischer should be sending things. The other one was to pick them up. So like a typical mind matter experiment where you have a sender and a receiver. Yeah. Okay.

But there are some problems with that because the timeframes were not, they were not followed us that should have been. But it was interesting that they did it. Very. And was it a successful experiment? Not that successful. Okay. No, no. That's too bad. It didn't prove anything really. But it was done and that was very interesting.

And he started this society afterwards, Edgar Mitchell too, that worked with psychical things. The noetic society. Yeah. Did you learn anything when you spent time with him? Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about was not a single astronaut that I'd ever seen a UFO in space. I'm not sure about that. I'm sure. He said it to me, so I mean, he used them all.

But they all signed NDAs. And I don't know if you know this James Fox story, but Buzz Aldrin, according to his sister, had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War II. And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space. And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin is like, I'm in this. country. I'm in this country and he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin. And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo

Hotel in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin says, I'm not doing the interview. I said, what do you mean you're not doing it? It was like, I can't do it. He's Paul Allen just invested in SETI and he got labeled a UFO freak or something and I can't jeopardize my initiative. I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get money to develop a rocket that's going to help put civilians into space. I can't do it. He's implying that he has something to say about UFOs. But if he did, it would hurt his reputation. Then he said, he said,

and how's my story going to change anything anyway? And I said, well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Your testimony would be paramount to do that. And remember, this is in the 90s, right? Yeah, it was probably late 90s. I talked to ask Tim, but yeah, it was a while ago.

And so he's like, well, I can't, I'm sorry, it's not going to happen. So I was devastated, like, devastated. I mean, maybe we're reading into it, right? But you never know. You want to believe. But he's kind of implying in that comment that he has something to say about UFOs. And so, and then there's speculation, obviously, in American Cosmic, that, you know, astronauts signed NDAs for a reason.

you have this guy who now has been outed, his name is Tim Taylor, his NASA mission controller, and he says, you know, astronauts are forced to stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so you have more and more coming out about this. So, but you think... I know a lot of astronauts and conspirators. You do, yeah. And not a single one of them has said anything like that. Fair enough.

Do you know any very well or how, like... Yeah, I mean, the Swedish ones I know very well, of course. I got to Neuergamitcher very well. Okay. I met with a couple of guys who walked on the moon. And a few, maybe ten cosmonauts from Russia. Yeah. And one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule.

Yeah. He produced those ice particles flying out. Yeah. And he said, wow, look there. Oh, wow, it's a fleet of UFOs. That I know. But I only try to comment on things that I really spent time. Do you know who Lienov is, one of the fathers of the Russian space program?

No, I don't know. So his goddaughter is a woman named Dr. Eia Whiteley. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's a space psychologist and she sees a lot of astronauts. And she says they all see stuff in space too. So it's so interesting because you seem extremely hard-headed and thorough. I mean, they're like the most thorough guy ever. And so like I fully trust you when you say you know a lot of astronauts. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

Yeah, me too. Not from someone else who says. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. No, I do too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is Edgar Mitchell left behind an estate and he had many papers in this estate. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson memo, which is now talked about ad nauseum an American UFO disclosure, you know, where you have records of Eric Davis, who's a civilian

scientist, who's obviously extremely well-versed in exotic propulsion and, you know, UFO stuff, related stuff. And Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology. And they're meeting outside of the EG&G parking lot. And Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs. That wasn't meant for public consumption, and that was released from Mitchell's estate. And that was supposed to be destroyed one year after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from who generated it. And unfortunate that his kids were sloppy, and I guess Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document, if he should die. But he was supposed to destroy that as far as I understand.

It seems like Edgar Mitchell had some really interesting access. He was very interested. In UFOs? Yeah, absolutely, very interesting. Why did he, if he goes to space, none of his colleagues see anything in space. He does a couple of parapsychology experiments. Why does he come back so high conviction that, you know, in the alien? I mean, he was a believer even before.

He was. Yeah. So he was curious about this, but he didn't see anything and he says that no, what else did. So I only can tell what he told me. What were the interesting things he told you? We talked a lot about he met with Yuri Geller. He did experiments with Yuri Geller. He was very much impressed by him.

I met with Uruguilla as well. I'm not impressed by him at all. I have friends to do exactly the same tricks as he can do. Yeah, he seems like a bit of a con man. He's a, yeah. Well, he also, now he goes on Twitter and he goes, he goes, Putin, don't. press the button. He goes, I had a vision that you're going to, and it's like, he's been wrong

so many times that it's like, nobody even care anymore. And I met with James Randy, you know, James Randy. Yeah, of course. Yeah. We sat like this, but even closer. Yeah. And he, he bent his spoon in front of me. I couldn't tell how he did it, but I know how he, how he did it. Uh-huh. He bent it like that. I couldn't see it. Yeah. But the thing he did, he put my, my hand over my own watch. Yeah. And then his hand over my hand, and then he moved it. And it was five hours like that. And we did the game and it was back to the same time. So interesting.

Interesting. It's hard to do that. Well, he was an amazing magician. Yeah, it was the amazing Randy. The amazing Randy. But he also, I don't know, I think in some ways he could have been a bad faith actor. Like, Yuri Geller is one of these things where cases where you know the Princeton Parasicology Lab has a whole. book on Yuri Geller

and like they studied him a lot. Andre Hu Pujaric brought Yuri Geller to the States. I think it was there. Germisiel met with Yuri Geller. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I think there might have been something interesting going on with him from just a pure

parapsychology perspective. And then he also blew it out of proportion, had all this BS stage magic that he was doing and then you get the amazing James Randy with his prize to, you know, be skeptical. But the most gullible people you can You can ask what are the scientists. You should put the...

That's interesting. What do you mean? I kind of agree with you, but what do you mean by that? They are not prepared to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if they can see something strange and measure it. Ah. So they think that reality is... Oh, that's so interesting.

Yeah. So they're not prepared for a magic trick or something. No, no. They don't. Hmm. Ah, that's a good... That's so fascinating. I like the way you put that.

Anything else, Edgar Mitchell told you that? Oh, we took for hours and hours. I don't remember now. I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in English if you're looking for my name and Ed Mitchell. Cool. Because I published it and it's out there.

That's fascinating. It was nice to have a long, long talk with him about everything that I was interested in. What UFO-related media impacted you the most? Oh, that was hard. I mean, when I was young and my first investigations, I think that made the most impact on me

because there was its huge observation near my hometown when I was 16. There were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain, watching for hours, an object moving in the south and I was out behind my house at the same time 100 kilometers away and I also saw the object but they didn't understand what it was and they were so excited about this they made drawings that was really fanciful and there was so much

speculation every newspaper wrote about this and I knew what it was I wrote to the newspapers. I was 16 and I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter. It was made for hours. And I was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it. They were printed in the newspapers

and I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures taking the same evening of Jupiter. Why? The same stars. Why would they be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter? Because they didn't know what it was. And... It doesn't normally show in the sky there.

One guy, a civilian, was there. He was an Adamski believer. Okay. He was a true believer that Adamski had traveled in space with aliens. Yeah. And he pointed to this object and said, Can't you see the windows? And they were looking.

Yeah, yeah, we can see the windows. What they could see were the moons, the three moons that were... Jupiter at that point. That's unbelievable. So he was impacting them. And that was very, very good learning for me. That if you have a group of people, they tend to see the same stuff.

Because you don't want to be the guy that sports... Deviates. Yeah, sports the party. So they're crowd-like dynamics. Absolutely. That was my first big UFO case. That's so interesting. It's like Gary Nolan where he got into becoming the UFO scientist by debunking a case, like the Atacama mummy or whatever. So at what point you do that, you debunked this case?

Yeah, I did. And then at what point do you decide you're going to dedicate your life to UFO research? I already decided that a couple of months earlier, so this was just the big case. But then I met a lot of people with strange stories that was very much more difficult to understand. to understand. But why did you decide that a couple months earlier? What was the moment? I started a small UFO society in my hometown called UFO Maristad.

Had you had an experience? No, no. Not at that time. I had not seen anything. I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see. I wanted to know what people saw in the sky. Have you had an experience since then? Yeah, yeah.

I had an experience together with my wife. in 1995, November the 5th. We were out traveling by car. It was midnight. We had been out meeting with guys. I think it was a birthday party. I was driving when Annalie was sitting. We were just coming into our suburbs of Stockholm.

We were very near our house. And there were two guys standing at the bus dock waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky. other one was looking. So I said to Annali, can you lean forward and see what they were looking at? But she did that, but she said, no, it's a fantastic sky. It was, it was a brilliant, starry sky all the night we were traveling back to Stockholm. So we passed them, and we were quite near our house.

I parked a car inside our garage, and we went out and I thought, now I will take a look and see if I can probably find out it was a planet. or whatever. So we scanned the sky, we stood one meter from each other, and suddenly out of the black in

the Gemini between Kastor and Pollux, not from the horizon, just back. Came three illuminated plus signs. Pump, bum, bum. Wow. And they flew. They flew over us. And I only saw it immediately,

so I didn't have to say anything. I said, oh, did you see? Yeah, yeah. So he ran after them around the corner because they passed over our roof. And we can see them flying over our neighbor's roof and vanishing. And they were like glued together. It was a small space beside them. But they were glued together.

And they were so easy to see. When you say glued together. I mean, they were moving exactly the same speed. Three different plus signs. Were they like three UFOs perpendicular to one another? Or were they? Like beside each other. So it was a...

Okay, so they were plus sign formations of UFOs. No, they were plus signs. Solid plus signs. Solid plus signs. Wow. Have you ever heard of a case like that? Not at that point, but I took a look. But I should say one more thing that I said to Annali, we don't talk.

We go inside. Here's a form. You'll sit in the kitchen. I'm sitting here. Spoken like a true UFO researcher. So you literally made yourself like this double-blind and then you both described what you say and you didn't talk. No. That's amazing. You maintain your discipline even in your own sight in. What should I do? That's awesome. So we made drawings and everything and they were not exactly the same. They never are, but they were of the same objects. Wow. Yeah. And after that, I put an investigator from UFO Sweden to try to find an answer.

So he tried to see if he could find an answer to this, but he couldn't. Were the plus signs, what color, white? White. Okay. And how fast were they traveling? Wow. How low were they? They felt very low.

But it's impossible to tell. I mean, it was a black sky and stars. But they were not satellite alt-age. not aircraft altitude they were lower any other anomalies like red angle turns or disappearing or lights or

the thing was that they were really coming out on the blue or the black not from the horizon that was a strange thing it's like they just appeared yeah and I never I never talked about this to anyone for months except for

the researcher because it was so strange. But half a year later I was interviewed on radio and I was asked, have you seen anything? And I couldn't lie. So I told the story. And then the telephone rang a couple of hours later and a guy said, you should talk to my mother. I called her. She was in her 80s. And she was a young girl in the 30s. and she had been out with her mother who was inside the house. She was waiting outside the house in this field. Middle of the day, sunny. She was just bored.

And suddenly on the road in front of her, three illuminated plus signs appeared out and over, rolling on the road, huge. Whoa. And gone. Wow. Were yours also rolling like that? No, no.

Okay, hers were. Yeah. Yours were more floating. Yeah, they were rigid, rigid, really. Wow. That must have, it's almost like a cosmic joke that the UFO researcher sees a thing that looks so not like

flying saucer, even though the flying saucer wasn't seen that much, or triangles, or it's the more common thing. Klaus, do you think, what, do you ever wonder, what if in one of these random manila envelopes? The answer. Yeah, or is just the most undeminent. Deniable evidence.

Yeah, of course. We haven't read them. Yeah. I mean, we have read some of them. So you need, we need to get you funding, man. Yeah, we really need to get some funding to make this available. Do you have any plans to digitize? We do it all the time.

Okay. All the time. We only one guy who do it. Oh. So he's sitting under an Avalanche, you know. Well, what's that guy's name? Leth Ostran, he's a real hero. Leif Ostran, he's a real hero.

Leif Austrin. Thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing. Who has, um, spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher and has gone the deepest on the files besides you yeah yeah who could that be we have some friends in Europe of course yeah Greg Gegean from the US he spent a couple of weeks here writing his book he's a professor in history in Penn State

interesting so he's why did he is he in the UFO He wrote his book about the history of the UFOs. He did? Yeah. Okay. I don't know who he is, really. Oh, he's often on TV on Big Strike, but I like an expert. It's very good.

Do you like him? Yeah, I like him. Really good research. Do you know the Penn State can, Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is? Dr. Eric Walker. He was at Penn State in their materials lab. He was a lead scientist, and he had a lot of interesting meetings where he,

seemed to claim that he was part of the Majestic Twelve. Yeah. There's a British Armenian physicist named Azadel. And that guy spoke to Henry Azadale. He's a very, very elusive guy. He has several names. He published his Silver Diamonds, South Africa thing, with the fraud. Ah.

So do you think he was like in intelligence or? Yeah, yeah, I don't trust him at all. So maybe do you think his conversation wasn't real with it? I don't know about Henry Azzaradero, he's not a bona fide UFO guy. Because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker? Are you familiar? No, I don't know about that, but I know about Henry Astereddle. So, I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron.

Yeah, yeah. So Grant Cameron wrote a book and it is a whole transcript of a conversation between... Grant is a good guy. Yeah. But Henry, I mean, he faked those documents or he did spread them with the knowing of them being fake? Apparently there was a meeting between Kit Green and Eric Walker, where Kit Green was like, I want to know about the UFO secrets.

And Eric Walker kicked him out of the office and was like, I can't tell. He was like, I know about this, but I can't tell you and he got very paranoid. Okay. So I, and then there's also, I'm sure you're familiar with Steinman, William Steinman. Yeah. So William Steinman also had correspondence with Dr. Eric Walker. Yeah.

Because he was in touch with Sarbocker. Barbocker described somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. And so I believe he went to Penn State, Steinman. Him and Scott Crane, I believe his other colleague. And they tried to meet with Eric Walker. And Eric Walker again was like, you guys are chasing your tails. I think he called them actually. There's a call between Steinman and Eric Walker.

And he said, you know, what do you know? about the six cents what do you know about sigh and then uh he says you know nothing i don't know anything and goes until you know about that you don't know anything about this and you're chasing you're basically it's like don quixote yeah it's fascinating so i was just thinking that because this guy that is interesting man but not henry as adele yeah yeah he has too many uh problems but but you can't if somebody is an intel agent and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them you can't always throw the baby out with the bath water. For sure. You always have to take everything with a total grain of salt.

But you also can't discount everything they say. There are people, I think, in the U.S. now who are on the circuit, who I'm pretty sure are, like, disinfo. But you, that doesn't mean you should not talk to them. No, no, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And then hold things in very low probability that they say and look for real corroboration. Yeah. But, yeah.

I agree with that. Yeah, okay, okay, okay, yeah. Sure, for sure. But there are too many of them, so it's very hard to distinguish. There are a lot. Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying with the Henry Azadena, like maybe some stuff's true, some's fake, you know, I don't know. It could very well be like that.

So, Klaus, you mentioned a damski, which is a very interesting case around a guy who also might be kind of a con man or snake oil salesman. It seems like he was caught in some lies. Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or, things like that. Right. But many of the pictures he took, you know, those mother ships and scout ships. He was traveling, he said, with the aliens to the moon and other things. Do you think there was anything to any of his comments or statements? He was hanging out with some interesting people, you know, he's hanging with George Van Tassel, right? Yeah. Who was, you know, Howard Hughes contemporary. And so do you think there was anything to that

case or? It's rather complicated but I don't think his pictures have been properly analyzed. I think they should be. There was one guy who did some analytic work on it, but he don't want to share. When I ask him, he don't want to share how he did it. Yeah. And I don't like that. I know there are diaries that Adamski wrote. Yeah. And I would love to see them. I know that Glenn Stackling has read them. Yeah. And I would love Glenn to share that, but we have not gotten that far. Yeah.

So there are still some openings or closings. I'm not sure which one it is to the case. So I want to know more, really, about Adamski. So you haven't made up your mind? I'm not made up my mind. I keep a slightly open door. Yeah. But I think most of it are not as good as it should be.

What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss. Oh, yeah. Billy Meyer don't trust. You don't, you think that he hoaxed the photo. I mean, the photos look too good to be true in many cases. But then also complicated where people say, you know, in the beginning he was attracting real stuff. And so, and you get the same thing sometimes with Chris Bloodsoe where people are like.

The story, you know. In the beginning, it was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't buy that. You don't buy it. And if I have loads of his pictures. at home. Yeah.

And some of them are so incredibly bad. You can see there are models standing on a table. That's not good. He used even pictures from books. Yeah. You know, the time travel he made to the dinosaurs. Yeah, yeah, that was so strange. I have that book at home.

I took a picture of a dinosaur in that book and said, oh, this is a picture I took when I traveled back back in time. That's crazy. It's not. He says that in the book? Yeah. Okay. After this, it's hard to take him.

Really? He took a photo of a dinosaur in the book, and it's clearly a fake photo. Yeah, yeah. I have the book myself. I can pair it. It's exactly the same picture. Jesus Christ.

You have this picture when an alien is standing with this ray gun in his hand or her hand. I don't know. The alien is cut exactly there, so you can only see the arm. And this incredibly fake-looking gun, like from a toy store. I just had a guest on who said this guy's in Jason Reza-Georgiani. He says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that? Billy Meyer.

Also, not really his name. His name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond-style super spy field intelligence operative. Really? Working primarily in the Middle East. Billy Meyer.

Yeah. Until he had an accident. in Turkey, in a bus accident, his arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland, where he became an older man, and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the

contactee phenomenon. I didn't know that. I dug up this and have documented it all in closer encounters. Whoa. So Edward Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle East that gave him access to all of the

Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shah of Iran. In particular, he was very close to the king of Jordan. Billy Meyer. What? He had like British intelligence times. He always tend to love to make stories better.

Yeah. Most of the time, he's just a crazy guy. He's crazy. Things to make himself a new Jesus like Billy Meyer really tried to do. That seems to be a thing. I mean, one of the best books, I think, in UFO research is Jacques Valais' messengers of deception. You get all this cult creation around

certain figures in UFOG. It's interesting because here in Sweden we have quite a few sorcerer cults where guys want to make themselves bigger than they are. Really? I told stories that are quite far out and got followers, mostly women.

Okay. Interesting. What do you think? I feel like I need to ask you because you've probably seen more UFO photos than maybe anybody in the world. Yeah, loads of them, really. What is your top UFO photo? Is there anyone? I mean, the thing about UFO photos is that they were better earlier.

Yep. The 70s. And when you call the guys who took the pictures in the 70s, they tend to say, okay, I fake it. Really? I did so with every single Swedish 1970 photo. And it's always young men. Not a single girl. And when I called them 10 or 15 years later, they said,

okay, I admit, I did it. It faked, except one who still maintains his story. And that picture looks so faked. But he's a Christian, he's a very firm believer in Jesus. and lives a good life. And I gave him the chance every second year. I call him again and say, hi, it's me. You can admit that you faked it now and he won't admit it.

Yeah. What's his name? Oh, it's a guy here in Sweden, so I'm not sure. Christa Sundstrom. Okay. Yeah. And do you have the photo? Yeah, I don't have it here, but I can, of course.

You can send it? I can send it so you can have it in. I'd love to see it. Absolutely. Is that the most visually appealing, clear photo that you can't. debunk? It's incredibly clear. I can fake it any minute if I want. I did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did it as well. Well, that's the problem with all these photos. Oh, you see, you did fake it. Yeah, I did fake. Well, you can fake any of these photos and then somewhat certain ones, you can't also debunk.

And so they end up inherently in this liminal space where if you have a guy who seems really honest and like there's no incentive to fake it, then you're stuck. There's no way to fully prove it or disprove it. The thing is that it's not the picture, it's the story. I mean, when you go through this guy and make an interview and to make him show how he saw this incredibly strange trip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards, then it falls apart.

Really? Yeah. So you think that it's fake because the story doesn't actually stand out of a story? Yeah, the story. If you meet with people, you can get the facts you need, not by analyzing the picture. But this very Christian guy, you think that that photo is fake? Yeah, I think it's fake. You think it's fake? Yeah.

So what's the best UFO photo that you think is real? Yeah, I was trying to find out that. Most people should say the McMinwheel picture. But of course, I went to this conference in France a couple of years ago, and this analyst showed us that it could clearly. see there is a string if you make a data enhancement of it. Really? So I don't know anymore. Oh no, the McMinnville.

Yeah. That's like a holy grail, you know. It's very hard to find a picture. You can say that wow, this is good. Wow. You have to look for the story. So is it safe to say there are no UFO photos that your very high conviction are real? Yeah.

I have no photos that I'm... Except the one I told you about with the radar return, I saw myself. That picture is, of course, of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. And since I saw the radar return myself on the military radar, I know it was there. And of course he couldn't know it was a military radar. So you have on that case, you have raider. You have a photo.

Yeah. You have two witnesses. And you have two witnesses. That might be one of the best UFO cases ever. It's for real. Yeah. That happened. And that's the one you're going to go digging for?

No, it's around the same area. Around the same area. Not connected in any other way. Okay. It's many, many years between them. Wow. Yeah. Fascinating.

Koss, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago getting into this field? getting into this field? I would love to understand that it's very scarce time you have to make interviews with people before they passes away. I miss so many. Who's top of the list? Lots of people from the ghost rocket era.

Investigators and witnesses that I, oh, in the 1980s when I started to pursue that, there were gone, many of them. Who's the number one person? It was a policeman up in the very north of Sweden, who was very much doing research and met people all around North Sweden and made interviews. I missed him. That's really, really sad. And I missed, of course, several of the witnesses around the lakes.

It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a test. to what you focus on, which are the core details of what happened in each case, whereas a lot of UFO researchers assume truth on this large scale, and then they get into all these kind of pontificating metaphysical questions. And so you're very obviously rigorous. And so appreciate your time, man. Thank you for having us. Thank you.

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