American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - The Man That Hacked NASA and Found UFOs [Interview w/ Gary McKinnon]

Episode Date: March 1, 2026

Our American Alchemist this week is Gary McKinnon. Gary McKinnon hacked into 97 U.S. military and government sites in the early 2000s from his girlfriend's aunt's flat in London. NSA at Fort Meade. DISA. Army, Navy, Air Force networks. NASA. All accessed with a Perl script scanning for blank passwords on a 56K dial-up connection while smoking weed in a dressing gown at 4 AM. He was not a professional hacker. He was a guy from Falkirk, Scotland, who grew up near Bonnybridge, one of the UK's most active UFO hotspots, who had read the Disclosure Project book and wanted to know for himself. What he found inside those systems, and what the U.S. government did to him for finding it, is one of the most consequential stories in modern UFO history. Gary McKinnon’s Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/shop/fabliciousuk/?etsrc=sdt Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals! ExpressVPN: Get 4 months free at https://www.expressvpn.com/americanalchemy Quo: Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://www.Quo.com/JESSE -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w  -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤  https://whop.com/jessemichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ [e-mail] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Timestamps 00:00 Introduction 4:00 ExpressVPN 6:29 Quo 8:29 Gary’s Background 11:15 Accessing Sensitive Sites 18:12 The Solar Warden Myth 21:11 Pursuing Free Energy 25:06 The Spacecraft Discovery 27:17 Airbrushed Evidence 33:19 The Cigar-Shaped Object 34:15 Donna Hare 36:42 Tic-Tac 43:39 Fast Walkers and Satellites 45:23 The Office of Naval Intelligence 55:11 Non-Terrestrial Officers 1:03:52 Space Supply Chain 1:04:42 Manufacturing in Zero Gravity 1:06:08 Super Soldier 1:07:27 Mysterious Experiences 1:08:15 The Implant 1:12:53 Secrets of Space Programs 1:15:50 The Air Force's Hidden Operations 1:17:48 Ben Rich's Revelations 1:20:44 Alien Bases on Mars? 1:22:17 The Stargate Connection 1:25:07 The Role of the Navy 1:26:14 Exploring Anti-Gravity 1:32:34 Townsend Brown's Influence 1:39:16 Free Energy Discoveries 1:45:09 A Deep Dive into Physics 1:56:40 The Extradition Saga 2:02:03 The Conspiracy Unfolds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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There's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? You can't go to the US now. I'm on the Interpol Redlist. The biggest military computer hack in all time. We talked about the case of computer hacker, Gary McKinnon, on which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. Well, I'm Mr. McKinnon. We have proceeded through all the processes required under our extradition agreements. I was just a guy, normal guy, interesting UFOs, happened to have some IT skills.

Nothing genius level. You hacked into the army. Navy, the Air Force, the Department of Defense, and NASA. They wanted to put you in prison for 60 years, so... Yeah, 70. For 70 years. And I bought potassium chloride. I was just going to swallow it and have an heart attack and die.

Oh, my God. Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes. The reason that you are here today on this show is because what you found. He found, he says, photographic proof of alien spacecraft and the names and ranks of something he called non-terrestrial officers. I was in my dressing gown up to like four in the morning, smoking weed, drinking beer. Right of my life, really. The first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture. And so I double-click this. But it was very, very slow. I was on a 56K dial-up. And I was just thinking, my God,

this is my eureka moment. Then there's like slowly a hemisphere started appearing. And I'm thinking, Fuck, that's a planet. What the hell? And then suddenly there's a big, straight kind of silvery line. Cigar-shaped object. I see the mouse made, and someone else is out of the computer themselves. They right-clinks, disconnect, and boom. That was it.

I was cut out. What do you think photographed it? Very good question. This spreadsheet was titled Non-terrestrial Officers. So, not on the other. And that was incredible. I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. I was suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain.

Then immediately I just went, oh. In my left heel, there were two perfectly circular holes. Wow. Weird. Explain what's going on quickly. I can't turn my phone off. You can see my finger is on the power button and both. This is like a hard reset.

That's never happened before. Absolutely. It's never happened before. But you're with Gary McKinnon. Before we dive Before we dive into the incredible existence cannot longer be denied Before we dive into the incredible story

of Gary McKinnon I want to shine a light on one thing his story reminds you of instantly online privacy Gary is a brilliant self-taught hacker who pulled off what the Pentagon called the biggest military computer hack of all time

all from a bedroom in London in this interview Gary goes into extreme detail about what he found in some of the world's most sensitive files, and I still can't wrap my head around what you're about to hear. After hearing what he found, you might think he hit the ultimate UFO disclosure jackpot. However, the moment he went online, a digital trail started forming. Think about the moments most of us could get exposed. It won't look like Gary's story, where he broke into sensitive government systems,

saw something truly unbelievable floating in space, and then had his access cut off mid-session. For most of us, our risk exposure is usually much simpler, like joining hotel Wi-Fi, Airport Wi-Fi, or even your office network. Going incognito doesn't hide your browser from the Wi-Fi owner, and your Internet service provider can just log what you do online. That's why I use ExpressVPN. It encrypts and reroutes my traffic through secure servers and masks my IP.

I literally turn it on before doing sex. sensitive research for the show. Like looking into whether mid-century scientist Thomas Townsend Brown cracked anti-gravity in the 1950s. That's exactly when I want my browsing to stay private. So if you're like me and you like going down crazy rabbit holes, make sure your research

isn't exposed on whatever Wi-Fi you're on. Thanks to our sponsor, ExpressVPN. You can now get up to four extra months of your ExpressVPN service by clicking the link in the description below at ExpressVPN.com slash American Alchemy. That's ExpressVPN.com slash American Alchemy

to get the privacy you deserve. Thanks again to ExpressVPN for sponsoring today's historic episode because if Gary's story teaches us anything, it's that your online privacy matters. Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia experiment.

And it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. And you know who was leading the whole project? My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor, Thomas Townsend Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members.

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Jesse. That's QUO.com slash Jesse. Quo, no missed calls, no missed customers. Now back to the show. This is such an honor. I am here with, he's been at the top of my list of people I've wanted to interview for years now. And I'm so lucky to have this opportunity through James Fox, the great documentarian, Gary McKinnon. Thank you.

I'm glad to be here. I love your channel. I've been a long-term subscriber. So, yeah. I really like a lot of the interviews you do, and I'm glad to be here too. Let's just go back to the early 2000s. Tell me the year and the day. And tell me about your life at the time, and then I want to get into the actual event.

Okay. I can't remember the day, but the year was 2000, early 2000. And my life pre to that, I'd always had a deep interest in UFOs, mainly from my stepdad. he used to live in Falkirk which is near Bonnie Bridge which is in Scotland it's like a Scottish UFO hotspot many many sightings

almost like a tourist attraction people go there to see UFOs and I had one sighting myself when I was about 12 and I was looking out of my bedroom window and I saw this kind of reddish-orange glowing light and it was moving in an arc from there to the horizon

and it was but it was like Brownian motion it wasn't a straight line it was like wiggling around and and just thought what on earth is that and i was also a member of buphora at the time the british ufoa research association of yeah i was hooked from an early age and so i guess it only made sense that eventually i try and do something to further my own interest and find out more um but unfortunately it involved in breaking the law sorry mum so So you already have an interest in UFOs. Had you seen a UFO or like, you know.

Just that one sighting. Just that one sighting. Okay. But I had my stepdad's stories. He'd seen them. His brother, my step-uncle had seen them. Yeah. And so you have this personal interest.

And then do you have like a hacking background or like, do you have any sort of like cyber background? Are you really good with computers? No hacking background. I used it. I was good with computers. I started off an Atari games console in like 78, 79, and then eventually got the Atari computer, learned to program in Basic at first,

and then machine code, assembly language, moved up from that. And then eventually got jobs in computing, very low-level jobs to start off with, network installation, Windows configuration, then did computer science degree. which I eventually failed because I spent too much time in a student bar. But yeah, so I eventually ended up contracting, but at banks, quite high-level stuff, but doing very basic sort of networking stuff. So I had a good background in networking, especially Windows, knew how they communicated,

and some Linux, Storke, Unix, Solaris, stuff like that. So when the internet came to Britain in 95, I think I first had the internet, And the first thing I searched for was UFOs. And it was very popular, loads of websites, loads of information. And fast forward about five or six years, I read the Disclosure Project book, Stephen Greer and his team. And they told you installations, locations. And I thought, I've got to have a look at this. I wanted it from the horse's mouth.

I didn't want to just believe, I wanted to know. And so I thought I could use my basic network. skills just to do a scan, you know, a light scan on American military networks, which is mad now. But back then it was just kind of like a playful idea. And I wrote a Perl script, Perlism, programming, extraction reporting language, just a scripting language. And I could run that across thousands of machines and minutes and find a blank password or passwords that were either blank or password admin, a basic list. And when you do like wide-scale fishing like that, you do, you know, some fish bite.

And that was my basic method to getting entrance to these places. And so some of these extremely sensitive American military sites had blank passwords. Big time. That's crazy. I mean, although that seems beyond belief, it also makes sense. Like the government's way more incompetent than often, especially people in UFO world give them credit for it because we assume they have workable reverse engineered crafts that they know how to use at will or where. So, like, you of course would have password set up. But 2000 is early internet.

We're still worried about Y2K, you know. So like we didn't really understand how a lot of this stuff worked. It was this big experiment. And so, wow. So that sort of fishing thing came up. with some fish. Yeah. And as you said,

the government really isn't tailored for this, especially the military. They don't, well, they didn't then employ specialized IT workers. They trained up existing military employees in the, you know,

basic techniques to run a network. There weren't advanced security aware guys running government networks or military networks. And are you, so while you're doing this, are you just like sitting in a apartment or something? It's a bit embarrassing. my girlfriend and I at the time, we were living in her auntie's house on the ground floor.

And I was in my dressing gown up to like 4 in the morning, smoking weed, drinking beer. Just like right of my life, really, for a young-ish guy. I think I was 36 at the time. I, you know, I don't think that's embarrassing for you. I think it's embarrassing for the sites you hacked into. Okay, so you're getting a little late night buzz and you're, you know, you're at your girlfriend's aunt's house. And you're just like, I want to find, I want to know for myself what's going on in UFO world. You do this blank password search.

You actually come up with some results as far as sites that you can get into. Yeah. What do you look at first? Well, the first thing I had to do was test my method. Mm-hmm. So I did that on British sites. and we're currently in Cambridge, home of the famous university. I had Cambridge's FTP server, file transfer protocol server,

and Oxford as well, and a couple of polytechnics at the time, which had now universities. And I realized the technique worked. If you cast far enough, a wide net, you know, something's going to come in. And then I thought, okay, let's go from the locations. And my list of locations all came from the, Disclosure Project book. And also there was a, I forget the title of it.

There was like a hackers network document going around of a list of potential UFO secrecy sites. And I took some of the names from there. But all that told you was the network names or the particular department of defense like sub-department that owned that network. So I used a site at the time which was called Nehe's IP Index. and this guy had done some work. He'd used domain search tools

and built a huge list of who owns what subnets. So I could just grab a block, plug it into my script, and scan like a quarter of a million computers in eight minutes. Typically, 5% would respond. And then from that 5%, a further 5% would have black passwords. Okay, okay, got it. So you do this like narrowing process

and you end up with, what is it, like 97 sites that you can, get into or something like that? Yeah, that was the end result. Which is a lot of sites. And what do the sites include as far as acronyms that people would be familiar with or program names people would be familiar with? Okay, so NSA got into Fort Meade, DISA, Defense Information Systems Agency, DoD Networks, Basic

Army Networks, Navy Networks, USAF, U.S. Air Force, networks. Okay, wow. So, yeah, those are some pretty intense organizations that, uh, at the very least we know hold the keys to, you know, all sorts of, you know, military technology secrets that confer a tactical advantage to the US, if not some of these deeper, you know, more interesting mysteries that, you know, you and I share an interest in.

So what do you do next as far as your search and what do you find? Yeah, okay, so I'm one guy. I've got potentially thousands of IPs to search, the individual computers. And once you find a blank password, and these are Windows networks, you need to become the administrator, which is like, you know, the highest local account. And eventually the domain administrator,

which controls the entire network. So once I was on one PC or a network, I then attack the domain server and get that password. And that's through dictionary attacks, password cracking. I actually used a tool called Loft Crack. I don't know if that's still around. and once I'd done that, it's a huge job for one person, huge job. So I found a program called Landsearch.

This is all commercially off-the-shelf available software. And what Landsearch enabled me to do was to type in a search term, and it would search every file and folder on all the local PCs that I had control of, which could be. I think the largest I did was 5,000 at one time, which took hours. You know, it was all light. So, you know, that's how I, that was my system for making it doable for one person and and also, it depends on your search terms.

These files aren't going to be called UFO secrets. So I had to look for things like, you know, secret, top secret, just anything just to, and PDF, PDF documents were particularly out. A lot of stuff was in PDF back then. And the redacting they did on PDF back then was not fully redacted. you could unredact it once you downloaded the file to your own PC. So it was a huge network-wide document search and just grabbing what I could, spending hours getting it, and then spending hours reading it and trolling through it.

Are you, when you're spending hours reading it, is this like you backed this stuff up on a hard drive, or is it just on your PC? Yeah, download it's my PC. Okay, so it's just on your PC. Yeah. Wow. And so you're going through all this stuff. Were there any other things you saw that were interesting outside of,

you know, we'll get to the crazy kind of UFO-related stuff that you found. Was there anything else that you saw while searching through these documents? I was looking for free energy as well. I never found anything to do with that. One thing I have to say, I never found anything to do with Solar Warden. Solar Warden is a huge rumor that was started by an anonymous poster on the above Top Secret Forum. So there's no evidence for solar warden.

And I have nothing to do with it, never heard of it, apart from, you know, rumors pertaining to myself. Yeah, for the audience, Solar Warden has become associated with these sort of secret space program, Gaia, you know, people like Corey Good, you know, that say that we have like a terrestrial, you know, we have like humans, like, in, like, deep space right now. And they engage in these, like, 20 years and back missions or whatever. and there's like a documentary on it. And it's like the, it's the worst documentary

I think I've ever seen. I bet it is. I totally believe in a secret space program, but I don't believe Corey Goode. Yeah, well, that's the thing. It's like Pizza Gate and Epstein. It's the best way to debunk the true, or to pre-immunize the population

from ever actually looking into the truth is to kind of, you know, inoculate them, send out stuff that is directly adjuncting adjacent to the truth and then ensure that that gets debunk because it's so prima facie ridiculous. Yeah, standard insult technique. Yeah, so I, yeah, so the fact that there's some sort of, yeah, standard intel techniques. So the fact that, you know, a blog, an anonymous blog post, and then you have all these people kind of flooding the zone with secret space program stuff,

makes me think that there might actually be something next to that that might be true. That dovetails with what you did find. Anything else that you found that was interesting before the the crazy stuff. Nothing to do with ETI or anything like that, but it was very interesting what on one site, I found the jailers file. Every military base has a jailer. And it's just crazy.

You've got guys taking LSD that work on submarines. Really? So lots of interesting human stories. Where they're taking LSD that work on submarines? Yeah, well, yeah, because they're soldiers, basically. Okay. And they're like, oh, I'm a submarine. I'm tripping now.

And they're dealing drugs. They've got Hell's Angels, gangs, bringing in the drugs. And so that was interesting for human story. It's nothing to do with what we're here to discuss today. Okay. Okay, that's fascinating. I thought for a second you were talking about like MK Ultra, mind control, like taking LSD at the bottom of submarines and testing consciousness.

Okay. So just, you know, recreational spice it up down there. Interesting. Make the 9 to 5 less boring. Yeah. And so you're systematically, you're looking for UFOs, you're looking for free energy, any other, like, you know, kind of terms that are on your mind in going into this search?

No, that was my main focus. And with UFOs, it was particularly the propulsion. What I was interested in was the energy and the propulsion. Aliens didn't excite me so much because I'm sure they exist because it's a huge universe. But I wanted something that could, the wicked use, you know, as people. And I was convinced that it was secret technology, but they didn't. knew something about and the populace at large wasn't allowed to have access to. Yeah. Well, I think you were, you were on to something maybe. But in Britain at the time,

we had old-aged pensioners, and their fuel bills, and energy was a really sad story for a lot of people. So to have something that was free. Yeah. And yeah, it was just too juicy not to have a go at finding. Yeah, I mean, it would be hugely disruptive to establishment institutions. You know, if, you know, our energy prices dropped from, you know, 50 bucks per kilowatt hour to like 50 cents per kilowatt hour, that would be hugely disruptive. It just would. I think it's a control mechanism, isn't it? Energy as well, just like water is starting to be. Food has been for a while. Yeah, anything that's scarce and can be accrued at the top, I think, is totally a control mechanism. And anybody who doesn't think that, you know, having access to a critical threshold of oil has not determined American foreign policy over the last 70 years is nuts.

Like, I mean, you see it with Maduro in Venezuela and then, you know, worries about what's going on in Iran vis-a-vis that, you know. And so, and like it's all, you know, very, very, you know, obviously interconnected. I mean, Desert Storm in the early 90s was basically pulled off because Saddam Hussein in overtaking Kuwait controlled the fifth of the world's oil supply, and that was just unacceptable. Yeah, and one thing about Venezuela is it wasn't just America's domestic supply. It was what foreign powers could get. China was about to do a deal with Venezuela. That's right.

I think it would only amount to like 1 or 2% of China's imports, but it's still something. No one goes to Hanks for a spreadsheet. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs and help him see if he can afford it. Co-Pilot shows Hank where the money's going

and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now, Hank has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Co-Pilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365Copilot.com slash work. Yeah, still something. They're sitting on a lot of oil there, and you see this, like, these crazy sort of game theory dynamics vis-a-vis China taking place with Greenland and other places. So it all cuts to these.

And if you look at, like, why the U.S. had to back down off this recent, you know, trade agreement deal with China and kind of concede some things. It was due to rare earth refinement being basically a monopoly in China. And so, you know, these things are, like, very real things geopolitically. And so if I agree with you, I think it's very interesting if there's any sort of novel exotic physics that's stuck in a compartment in the government, you know, I'd like to know as well. And I even think there are probably interesting ways to use it geopolitically. If you have it where it's like it's some sort of carrot for like, okay, maybe you don't give it to like, you know, gross dictators or whatever. But it's like a way to like incentivize reform or I don't know. But like just keeping it to your. yourself, that seems wrong, maybe. Yeah, yeah. But you're right, it's a real hard light to walk, isn't it?

How do you have that public for you, but not public for other countries? Because you have spies and... Totally. And there are dual-use implications for a lot of things. So, like, a good example would be, you know, controlled fusion or whatever, you know, is the really positive, you know, use of nuclear fusion, which would allow for, you know, sort of free energy if you have over unity. but then, you know, fusion also creates the hydrogen bomb, right?

And so, so, like, you never know. Like, if you had some free energy device that you were putting in a compartment or something, if that also allowed a kid in his bedroom to blow up the world. Like, you do have to, like, do some calculations. There's this guy, Ashton Forbes online, who, I don't know if you're familiar with him.

Oh, the airplane. Talks about, yeah, MH370, these, like, orbs wrapping around the plane and then it zaps it, and he's, like, that there's like free energy like, you know, being held by. It's me, the most fascinating thing about that was, where's the provenance for that video? Yeah.

It's never been shown. It's never been, yeah, we don't know. Yeah, yeah. But, um, okay, so what do you find next? So, um, there was a, a special witness for Stephen Greer's disclosure project called Donna Hare. And she said that when she worked, she was pretty hard. She was a NASA launched photographic specialist. So I think she had secret clearance,

because she'd get, you know, very close-up photos of all the mechanics and engineering and stuff for launches and the launch platform under the launch platform. And she said that she worked in Building 8 of Johnson Space Center, JSC, and that her colleague who worked across the corridor, and this is all something he shouldn't have done, because they chatted, you know, had lunch together or whatever. And one day he just beckoned her across the corridor. corridor and said, come and take a look at this. And this is the days of analog photography.

And so he's got, you know, big contact sheets and slides and used to be developed under red light and silver nitrate. And he said, what do you think this is? And there was a huge white disc on this satellite photo of the earth. And she, being a photographic expert herself, said, oh, it's just a blob and the emulsion, you know, the old capicle of the sheets. And then he's grinning and he says, dots on the emulsion don't leave round shadows on the ground. And there was a round shadow at the right angle, at the correct angle, the sun shining on the trees. I saw pine trees. I didn't see a coastline.

I don't know where this was. But I looked at him and I was pretty startled because I'd worked out there several years and never seen anything like this. Never heard of anything like this. And I said, is this a UFO? And he's smiling at me and he says, I can't tell you that. So I said, what are you going to do with this information? And he said, well, we always have to airbrush them out before we sell them to the public. Because they sell on the imagery to colleges, universities, you know, earth shots and magnificent scenes from space.

So, yeah, his job was to block this stuff out and make sure it wouldn't get seen. and they didn't have Photoshop then, so I'm not sure I think the airbrush term literally comes from a physical airbrush on the emotion where they just blur things and you see lots of examples

on this of lunar photography from Clementine Mission the lunar orbiter, the LRO recording since orbiter so I read this story absolutely fascinated here was this hardly call off by a woman she'd worked for a long time

NASA and I think the Air Force previously to that And did she say disc? She said Flying Saucer? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And she said so that shape, the circular shape.

Yeah, and the shadow. Okay. Wow. And I was already in Johnson Space Center at the time. So I thought, Building 8. Okay. I wonder if that's still running because she worked there in the late 80s or the early 90s. So you're in the Johnson Space Center files on your PC.

Yeah, I was already there when I read there. Okay. Yeah. So I thought, I've got to have a look. Yeah. I've got to have a look. And I thought, how the hell do I find building 8? But luckily Windows has, you can do network commands in a console rather than a GUI of the mouse.

And you can type it like net stat, network status tells you all the people connected to the machine. And there's other commands whereby NASA are great auditors of their system. So they have these special commands for auditing where you see the machine. the PC, the number, the serial number, the date when it was last maintained, all stuff like that, and the building, it's in. So I ran those commands,

that produced a list, and I stripped out, I think it was about 1,500 machines, or maybe 150 machines, but once I stripped out the building eight machines, there was only like a dozen, maybe, and I ran the black password script on them, and I think about half of them were accessible.

And the first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture. And it was strange, it was, I did a lot of network support before that as well. And most users' desktops are covered in stuff, shortcards, emails, like electronic post-it notes. And these were very bare desktops, all the hands like two-folders, raw and process, and maybe a couple of other shortcuts. And so I thought, I've got to look at this. it's got to be images. It's where she said it was.

It looks like images. It says raw. It says processed. And I double clicked into the folders. And it's a proprietary NASA image format that I can't run on my desk. Not a JPEG, not a PNG. So what I had to do was basically there was a, what was it called? There was, there was, there was proprietary.

I basically had to run NASA software. I had to double click it on the desktop because my hacking method, although I'd get in there with a blank password, which was CLI, come online. Once I was in there, I was using remotely anywhere. I think it still exists. It's like PC anywhere. It's like you're sitting at the desktop. You can see the screen on your screen.

And so I double-click this, but it was very, very slow. I was on a 56K dial-up, which was, to give some idea of the speed, it was, if you download an MP3 music file now, you've got it in a few seconds. Then it was five minutes per megabyte. And a song might be three megabytes. So 50 minutes for one song. No one would even accept that now. So I double-click this.

It was taking ages. So I cancelled it. I turned down my remote graphical remote control thing into like eight big color, then four-bit color. Eventually, yeah, I think four-bit color or two-big color. It was basically four or five different colors. So it was a shitty image.

But it came on the screen. like, you know, almost line, well, I think there's a few lines at times. It's coming in blocks. And I'm looking, and there's, like, blackness. Then there's, like, slowly a hemisphere started appearing. And I'm thinking, fuck, that's a planet. What the hell? This could be what she said.

Then the hemisphere comes into view, and it's very blocky, but it's kind of blue and white. So I'm thinking, but it must be Earth. And then suddenly there's a big, straight kind of silvery line. And then it's coming down. Then that's, I guess, what they, call a tic-tac but of what we used to call cigar-shaped object and this thing was admittedly it's low resolution it's coming down slowly but this thing looked very kind of smooth on the outside there was

no lines whether it would be like plates fixed or screws and bolts and stuff and uh i was just thinking my god this is my eureka moment i've confirmed donna hair story not that donna hair story needs confirming. Yeah, and it got to, I got the whole ship, you know, in view. And then it started to go below that, where I would see the rest of the, the sphere of the earth, I assume it was the earth. And it was just amazing. The only man-made, possibly man-made thing that was there,

was like geodesic domes, like radar stations, one atop, below, and both sides. And I thought, well, that's strange, it's kind of man-made looking, but not man-made looking. And then I've got graphical remote control. I see the mouse move. The person, someone else is at the computer themselves, and they're moving the mouse. They right clicked on the local area network icon, you know, right next to your clock

on the bottom right of your windows taskbar, disconnect, and boom. That was it. Come on. I was cut out. And I'm sitting there like waiting. Oh, my God. With a baiting breath of my eureka moment. Come on, come on, come on.

Oh, my God. Anything else on the cigar. So smooth, no, it doesn't seem like rivets or seams, it's hovering above the earth. Do you notice anything else? No. Just like a very smooth cylinder, the geodesic domes. And... So the little dome on top, dome on bottom.

Yeah, and on either end. And on either end as well. Or that could just be the kind of cigar tube, like the closure of the cylinder. Sure, sure, sure. I suppose, yeah. That is fascinating. Yeah. So interesting.

And did you ever speak with, you know, yourself or through intermediaries with Donna Hare? Oh, yeah. And did she say that's the disc that I saw? And I just, because I think of disc with her and then cigar or Tick-Tac with you. Yeah, she saw that one photo of disc, but she also spoke to... Okay, so these are probably different images. You're just confirming that the same building probably has a whole lot of images that they're sitting on. Yeah, even though it might be 10 or 20 years later, apparently this is still the

place where there's images. Yeah. UFOs or exotic craft and they're being airbrushed out. It is proof that at least, I mean, it's really interesting that you have a whistleblower come out with nobody has any evidence for her claims at this point. And she says, you know, this is where we process the images. I was shown this image, Building 8, Johnson Space Center. You independently, you know, halfway across the world, hack into Johnson Space Center, look at Building 8.

And then one of the first things that pops up on your screen is an image of a UFO, hovering above the earth, which is clearly not the exact same UFO, but it's, you know. It's definitely exotic. It's nothing, you know, it wasn't a rocket. It wasn't ISS. It wasn't like a space lab. Well, it doesn't sound like a satellite to me, a cigar, like, rotating around the island. Yeah, there's no antennae either.

There's nothing, no like telemetry or sensor-looking stuff. It doesn't, yeah. Yeah. That is wild. I mean, and then also now. We have the lucky hindsight, you know, in, in 26 of Commander David Fravers' experience of 2004, just a few years later off the coast of San Diego, where he sees a Tic Tac object. And they have, you know, apparently radar.

We've seen the Fleer imaging, the thermal imaging of this thing. It's for everyone to see. The Pentagon is verified that that's real. All four of us, because we were an F-18Fs, so we had pilots and Wizzow in the backseat, look down a small, saw a white Tick-Tick-Tic object with a long. longitudinal axis pointing north-south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping-pong ball it rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared our wingmen roughly 8,000 feet above us lost contact also and then you have a lot of other witnesses you have his co-pilot you have another plane and two pilots in that plane you have you know a whole lot you have the obviously radar some guys on the ship exactly so are you the first like other I mean there I think I believe that there's some other tick-tack and cigar like there's you know i think flying there there are air force documents from the late 40s um that describe uh flying butane tanks i don't know if you know about this

i haven't heard of describe my lot david grush you famous ufo whistleblower has talked about this and then in robert hastings great book ufos and nukes which talks about ufos showing up at nuclear installations all over the world including in the uk actually at rendelsham forest in 1980 really famous case. He talks about Tic Tacs or cigar-shaped objects often being sort of like a mothership and saucers

flying out of the Tic Tacs. Yeah, I think that was it Mailstrom, AFP in America as well? Similar thing happened. Yeah, definitely a mothership kind of configuration. Yeah, a ton has happened at Malmstrom actually, so it's definitely

likely that in certain cases some sort of ticked. Because a Tick-Tack or cigar is one of the most common descriptions people have. There's a case we were just talking earlier. You know, thank you James Fox, great documentarian for the intro to Gary. It's a great guy. And we were saying that he sort of single-handedly resuscitated this obscure Brazilian UFO crash in 1996, the Virginia case. And there's a guy, Carlos DeSosa, who's a ultra-light pilot geography teacher who literally saw the crash.

and he felt the material, just like in Roswell with Jesse Marcell, it feels the material, and it feels like, you know, memory metal. I could see quite a few pieces of debris on the ground, and I picked them up, and it was kind of curved. And then I was surprised to see how light it was. So I said, I'll keep it. And so I crunched it up.

And so I made this kind of movement, you know, to put it in my pocket. And what happened was this foil or this sheet regained its shape. So I thought, what is this? I was completely floored. Yeah, it sprung back into its original shape. And guess what the shape of the craft was that he saw that crash?

Right. So. Cigar, tick, tack. Yeah. So. Yeah, lots of synchronicities there. What was your first instinct when you saw it? How did you feel?

And what did you think? You know, often I think like, if you're taking like a multiple choice test, It's like your first instinct's often right, you know, and then you second guess yourself. So do you have like an on-the-spotting interpretation? I'm not an aeronautics expert or a space vehicle expert, but to me, you know, I watched space stuff with interest since I was a kid, and it wasn't your normal, space stuff, so I knew that. But there wasn't, you know, I didn't know if it was extraterrestrial.

Yeah, I still don't, obviously. You know, it could be something man-made, but it was definitely something secret because it was nothing like we already have up there. Dan, did you have any sort of like instinct of, I mean, the obvious question is like, is it ours or is it theirs? Yeah, yeah. That's a big distinction. Well, I think because of Don Hare's story, my instinct was that, yeah, it was alien because

that's what she described. She described unknown things in high-res, NASA satellite imagery that they had to airbrush out because, I don't know, maybe they thought it would panic the public or there had no explanation. for it. And what does she say as far as why they airbrushed it out and didn't just admit, you know, yeah, we're surrounded by these cool exotic objects? Yeah,

we shared a few emails. She's passed now unfortunately, God wrote us all. And we had one, I think it was like two and a half hour, three hour phone conversation. And she thinks, like a lot of us do, that a lot has been hidden.

It's being hidden for reasons of control. But it's weird when you try and extrapolate from this, you think, well, wouldn't you use technology like that in a war if you had that? Would you use it openly to your advantage? So to me, that tells me that it's still unknown even to the people of the highest authority in that subject. I think that's right. If it's not well known, and it's flying with impunity over our nuclear sites and in sensitive airspace and in space next to our recon satellites and stuff, you would be extremely embarrassed. to you wouldn't be able to admit, you know, but if, but if you did know what was going on,

you would just tell the public, yeah, we not only do we know what's going on, but then you'd try to signal that you know what's going on and you've like reverse engineered it because you'd want to, you know, kind of soften, you know, the enemy sort of thing. And so I actually think some of modern disclosure might be, you know, intel tactics to try to like say that we know more than we do, but also recruit on the topic because like actually they don't, really know what's going on. I think you're absolutely right. Embarrassment is a huge factor.

Yeah. Even just my hacking was an embarrassment. So if they're embarrassed about something like that, can you imagine? Yeah. I mean, it's just indeterminable. It's hugely different. And also fear, because I mean, why, you know, are they here? It's time to refresh your yard during spring backyard days at the Home Depot.

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Is it for protection of us? Is it that we destabilize some kind of interdimensional thing or? Yeah. Because, you know, we're fucking with atoms. Did you get the sense? Yeah, right, we are. We're doing a lot. Genetics, atoms, bio warfare.

So when you saw this thing, did you get the sense that it was moving in a predictable orbit? I mean, it's a static image, so you have no way of knowing. But did you get the sense that it was, like, moving in an orbit, or that it was, like, just kind of maneuvering around? Well, I've seen photos of the O, low-earth orbit stuff. and this looked to be maybe, I mean, I have no idea of the scale of this thing. But with the hemisphere,

it was way beyond low Earth orbit. Okay. But I don't know, I mean. You know, there's actually a WikiLeaks email with John Podesta on it that's been deleted from the internet. But still, if you go on the way back machine, I think there's some like Reddit forums that discuss this, definitely a real email.

And he is talking with kind of a contractor from some aerospace corporation, I think, in California. And he mentions the contractor, I think the guy's name is Bob Fish, said they're having lunch together. And this is him recalling it in the email. And Fish says, yeah, we spotted some fast walkers today. And they were, I think this was in specific reference to the DSP, the defense. support program, which I think is this very deep geostationary kind of recon thing that the Air Force does. This was the Air Force at the time because now Space Force would do it, you know, post-2019. But I wonder if you saw Fast Walker. Because also if you try to FOIA fast walkers, which John Greenwald

did, the Space Force gets back and says, you know, clearly there are some records, but we can't, we can't talk about them. Yeah. Yeah, wasn't the S-CIA for you to do with Fast Walkers as well? Maybe, maybe. Yeah, it might be the CIA, actually. It might not even be Space War. I might be getting that wrong. But yeah, interesting. So, but I guess one question would be like, was it lateral to the earth? Like, was it moving, yeah, lateral to the Earth? Because I think it wouldn't make sense to me if it was like vertical to the Earth. Like if the, if the butt was facing the earth I'd be like that doesn't feel like an orbit like it's in a predictable orbit you know what I mean it was definitely it was lateral 90 to the earth it was at 90 yeah so that yeah it's it's horizontal

and horizontal I wasn't seeing it end on so you're right it was in a position to be rotating around possibly in orbit traveling past or just traveling past yeah yeah or yeah okay yeah so it wouldn't be it wasn't like going directly at the earth it was like moving laterally somewhat okay so interesting Any other detail? I guess you don't know color, right? Because it's... Silvery white. I mean, it was very...

I was in like, I think, too big color. Okay. But, or maybe four bit. But yeah, it was very kind of blocky and... But it was definitely white. Silvery white. And did you see any sort of... I guess, I don't know how you'd see a shadow,

but like, did you see any sort of... I know, because it's so far out from Earth. Yeah. Interesting. What do you think... photographed it. Very good question. Yeah.

Now, yeah, so this takes me to, I referenced the disclosure project a lot because that was the root of a lot of my locations and research at the time. And one of their witnesses, I forget his name, he was DIA, and he got a lot of the information to do with the satellites.

And he was the one that said most of these satellites are actually pointed out. Buts, and they're not Not like lower orbit communication satellites. So I assume if you've got very far out of satellites looking outwards, you can also rotate them and look inwards. So that's the only thing I could think of. Okay, so that is fascinating.

You see that. How are you feeling when you see that? Oh, man. I was ready to inform the press. Tell the world, oh my God, look, it's true. And Nazar knows. And NASA has no for ages. And Donahe was right.

And for them, boom, disconnected. As it's loading. Yeah. So it hasn't even fully loaded. I saw, like, just under the bottom half of the ship. Yeah. And, yeah, then disconnect. And you have no reason to lie about this.

You've never made any money off of this, right? And if anything, you were kind of put on a witch trial. Like, there was sort of this witch hunt for, like, 20 years where this, like, you know, blanket extradition was attempted to be applied to you where they wanted to put you in prison for 60 years. So, 70. For 70 years. Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes. On his visit to the White House, David Cameron spoke to President Obama about the case and both agreed they could find an appropriate solution.

We talked about the case of computer hacker Gary McKinnon, on which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. You said you would work together to find a solution. So have you found one? Well, I'm Mr. McKinnon. We have proceeded through all the process. required under our extradition agreements. It is now in the hands of the British legal system. We have confidence in the British legal system

coming to a just conclusion. And so we await resolution and we'll be respectful of that process. Well, we had talks and they said, look, if we just come along, don't fight it, you do between age and 20. Like, that's a good deal. No, thank you, I'll fight it.

And yeah, and that was actually horrible. It was very depressing. I found out my own government, because governments are made up of individuals, and individuals have ties to other individuals in the DOJ and the CPS. Some of them wanted me gone too, just as a favor to the US, not because of anything to do with right or wrong or truth or justice, just as a favor, political porn. So that was awful, not just for me, my family, your mom and dad,

And it's like, oh. Weren't there some allegations of a meeting that was had at the American embassy out here where it was like, we want his head or something? Like it was very extreme language used. Yeah, Ed Gibson, who was attach to the U.S. Embassy in London at the time, met with my lawyer. And he said, we want to see him fry, electric chair reference. Jesus Christ. But she told me that, Karen, amazing lawyer. I stopped on us all through this and fought and forth and forth.

Yeah, I was just, I mean, we already. knew they played do it because i mean people have to realize you know politics isn't about people being safe and well looked after it's about the state the furtherance of the state and its objectives and the protectors the protection of your state to foreign state so yeah no that is definitely the the lay of the land as is national security and uh you know i just find it i find it interesting that okay you have guys like snowdon and assange where wherever you're you lie with them, which like whether you think they're courageous and ideological in a way that really, you know, exposed all sorts of, you know, issues with the Intel world and mass

surveillance and stuff, or whether you think they put like, you know, Americans abroad in danger or whatever, which I think there are like, there is some nuance there. Like, I do think some people in the Intel world who talk about this say, well, there's some real, like, bad effects around the stuff. In Osang's defense, he had lots of phone calls before releasing that information. So he actually agreed it with people in the State Department. I didn't know that. That's, yeah, well, there you go.

Yeah. But I was just getting to the point of whatever you think of those cases, like maybe there's some, you know, like more gray area or debate to be had or whatever. In your case, you're just, you're smoking weed in your girlfriend's aunt's little flat. And it's like 4 a.m. And you're just like a dude who's interested in UFOs since you were a child and you want to figure it out. And so it's just like to me, if it's the U.S., like get your shit together. That should be your, you should be, you know, it's almost like they might have lashed out so much at you because they were embarrassed.

I mean, literally like, it's, it's on you. It's not on this like poor English citizen who has no clearly like, I don't think you're like particularly like particularly ideal. set and like destroying America, you know? I've been there. I love that. Chicago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, well, we'll get to that kind of more meta conversation,

but you also found some other pretty crazy things while you were, while you were searching in your girlfriend's aunt's flat. And so, yeah, what else did you, what else did you find besides this Tick-Tac? I think I was on a Navy system at the time. I can't remember. Cloud of weed, etc. But there was a spreadsheet, Excel spreadsheet. And it was called, because I was saying earlier about my search terms,

it was UFOs, ET, terrestrial, anything, spacecraft, anything I could think of, which probably wouldn't be in the title of the document. But this spreadsheet was titled Non-Terrestrial Officers. So, not on the Earth. Which isn't necessarily alien. It could just mean space-based Marines or, you know, secret space force. And that was incredible. It had ship names.

It had material, the military spelling, not material. And it was transfers of weird chemicals like malibdenum and other weird things that are hard to pronounce. Ship to ship transfers and fleet to fleet transfers. And at the time, I looked up the ship names thinking U.S. Navy must be boats. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Do you remember the names of the people? No, I don't remember any of the names of the people,

but there were long lists. I think it was just initial surname. I don't think there were first names. And the ship names, I was expecting like USS Lincoln or Navy ships, but there was none of that. Everything I, and it wasn't Google at the time, I think it was Alter Vista, with the biggest search engine at the time.

And none of it was sea-going vessels. So you see a list of non-terrestrial officers, and then you also see chemicals. What are the names of these chemicals? Malibdenum, barium, something was in there. They were very exotic. So what does that imply? Do you remember the exact? So what is Malib.

Have you looked up what the uses are of this? Yeah, I remember Malibdom. I can't say it now. Malibdenum. They're very exactly used in like a magnetics, lots of very kind of exotic industrial processes. A lot to do with metal hardening, if I remember right, metallurgy.

Like you make an alloy and it makes it stronger than the original two components. So again, that time, now, years later, with the research you've done the people you've interviewed, it's all making more sense, especially when we come to the biofield brown stuff and dielectric. Yeah, we'll get to that. And like nanodeposition of thin layer materials. Yes, yeah, thinly layered, thinner than a human hair or whatever, micron layered.

This one sample is engineered in layers thinner than microns through a process unknown on Earth, and for a purpose we can only guess. Multi-layered bismuth and magnesium sample, bismuth layers less than a human hair, supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced aerospace vehicle. Nowhere could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these. Okay, this is fascinating, though. So you see a list of how many non-terrestrial officers? Oh, man.

So my screen at the time was the old, like, 800 by 600 monitors. I think I might have had 1024-768 resolution at the time. So your typical Excel spreadsheet without zooming in when you just loaded it up was probably 24 lines. And I think there was about one and a half or two pages. So maybe like 30, 40 names. You don't remember any of the last names? No. Sorry.

You're killing me. I'm not kidding me. You got to give us a little breadcrum. Yeah, this is one of the main criticisms of me. Why didn't you take a bloody screenshot? Just an old print screen. Alt print. But I did actually, I downloaded that Excel spreadsheet.

And when I got arrested, all my data was taken to O&I, Office of Naval Intelligence. So they still have my hard drives. I've tried to get them back for years. And they said, no, it's still a long-going investigation. You can't touch it. Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S. I think it's 1882. And it's often deeply implicated in UFOs.

1882. 1882. So the National Security Act, which created the CIA, was 1947. And, you know, and then you had the OSS before that, which was kind of this wartime foreign intelligence effort. Yeah. But, you know, Office of Naval Intelligence well predates all of that. And you had Thomas Townsend Brown doing a lot of spooky science work for the Navy. And, yeah, and then you have this guy, Harold Malmgren, who kind of ended up giving me kind of a turned into kind of a death.

bed confession at the end of his life. And it was wild. I mean, he was like, the Office of Naval Intelligence knows the most about this issue. And once you go in that door, the door shuts and you can't get let out. Well, you said, more nothing, naval intelligence are going to be around

asking your questions about your study. They really get curious. And if they talk to your brain, like time those they wholly shouldn't, you really know a lot. They are not offering you special access. It's how they operate. I say, what does that mean?

You'll open the doors. You'll have full entry. The doors will shut and you'll be no exit the rest of your life. That is a closed system. And he kind of implied that they approached him in certain cases. And because of the fact that it was this closed system, he didn't want to engage. Wow. So, very interesting.

So they end up with your stuff. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, they were one of the British police, at the time it was the NHTCU National High Take Crime Unit in the UK. At first they said to me, oh, you'll get six months. It's a computer meets US Act, 1995 in Britain. Six months, community service, no time. And then they went to America and visited O&I and other top brass. And when they came back, the tone had totally changed. They were just really serious. which of course eventually turned into facing 70 years in present. So it was a huge, like using a hammer to crack a nut. It was, you know, David and Goliath, that whole thing. So wild. Yeah, well, it's huge, like you said earlier. I was just a guy, normal guy, interesting UFOs, happened to have some IT skills,

a little bit of hacking, black passports, nothing genius level. And then next thing, you know, oh, it just blows up. Try to make an example of you. So when you think about those chemicals, and we'll get into our mutual interest in Thomas Townsend Brown and anti-gravity experiments. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast.

That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. So you think that they could have been used to create special alloys or what you might call metamaterials and UFO world, which allow for greater thrust in these anti-gravity experiments? It's like one thing that is true about the bifield brown effect and this anti-gravity experiment is that if you use an insulator in the middle that is considered a high K dielectric, which means it stores and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism, a lot of electricity, it stores electric fields in it specifically. The thrust you see in the experiment is much greater from the negative electrode to the positive

of electrode. So do you think that, you know, I guess Berium is actually in Townsend Brown's documents. Like, he talks about it all the time. Stontium titanium. Titanate. Exactly. So, and then what was the other, I can never pronounce it? Malibdenum. And you looked into that and that's for like creating alloys. Yeah, I think it's a strengthening alloys. It's been a long time since I looked into it. But I think that's what it was. It was like a strengthening alloy. Any other chemicals? It might have even had a shielding, not gravitational shielding, but like radiation shielding or something. I think maybe similar to Ned, but I'm not a physicist, so don't quote me.

But it's super interesting if it's used on like current space vehicles. Like people should go out and look that up because if it is, you know, that might be an interesting. Yeah, do some patent searches. Yeah. Any other chemicals? Levedem and barium. Strontium. Strontium.

Yeah, strontium. And strontium is also mentioned in brown stuff, I believe. I can't remember any others. Okay. But isn't strontium, I believe, one of Gary Nolan's pieces that he has at the, you know, Stanford lab that he thinks might be UFO metamaterials that come from crashes. I believe has strontium in it. Yeah, it's a good dielectric. I forget it's K-constant, but I know it's high.

So it's also a high-K-dialectric? Yeah. This is crazy. So you have a list of. non-terrestrial officers. Yeah. Yeah, so. And then what is the fleet to fleet thing mean?

This was fleet to fleet transfers, because it was a, it was one spreadsheet, but it had taps. Mm-hmm. So there was the officers' names. Mm-hmm. There was ship names, and there was material, a material transfer. Do you remember the ship names? No.

Okay. But what, okay, what, when you're looking at this, what is your instinct as to, Because there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have, you know, people make up the Secret Space Program, Solar Ward and stuff. What was your, you're in the moment, what are you thinking when you see this? Well, that's exactly where I was. I imagine you were me. UFO guy, you know, quite an active interest.

And then finding this. And so obviously that's where my first thoughts go. So I'm thinking non-terrestrial officers, that's a baseline for the whole document. So they're not on Earth, but I was thinking, well, they could be, they're probably, it's probably people. They're not non-terrestrial because they're not human. They're non-terrestrial because it's non-Earth base, so it's out in space. So Space Force was my first thought.

It's got to be a space force, obviously secret. And then with the chemicals and stuff and the ship names, and fleet to fleet transfers, and there's more than one ship. and then exotic materials. And so, you know, it's kind of two plus two equals four. Yeah. Obviously, it's to do with my mindset. That's what I was looking for.

So that's how I interpreted. Well, you know what I would do? If I was Office of Naval Intelligence and I hated Gary McKinnon, you know what I would do. I'd make up some BS secret space program, call it Solar Warden, send people down the wrong trail. When actually, I do have real, you know, deep space fleets and. transfers of these. And Shola Warden did come after me. Yeah, it did.

So, but, but like, I'm still trying to get to the, but, so the trans, what do you think the fleet to fleet transfer of what? Of people? I think of chemicals. Materials. Because first you have the people, then you had the ships, then you had the chemicals. Okay. Metal elements.

Okay. And do we think that the material is being transferred between human? do we don't think that the material is being transferred between extraterrestrials and humans? Do we or do we think the material is being transferred between humans? I think, yeah, ship to ship. So I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics train. Like a supply chain and space or something? Yeah.

Yeah, just a basic because the army's all about, well, the Navy or whoever is all about logistics. Right. And a lot of these materials, if they are layered extremely thinly, and you have kind of atomic layer deposition style stuff, we know that manufacturing in space and in zero-g environments allows you. So a lot of these materials, they go, it looks like it was built in zero-g. Like, this is so crazy.

No faults. So, like, maybe they built it in zero-g, and then they're, like, conflating it with the UFO stuff, which actually just shows up around nukes and in other contexts or whatever. But, like, they might have built it in zero-g. Yeah, yeah, that's the old camera's razor explanation, isn't it? That's the simplest. Okay, so there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufactured,

these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't make physically impossible on Earth. On Earth, yes. That's fascinating. I don't think has anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this, like we're doing now? No, this is fresh and unique. I love this. This is fascinating because, I mean, that makes sense.

That makes sense. Like the other stuff doesn't make sense. I mean sending people 20 and back into through the sun into a portal or the maybe that's possible. I don't know. Yeah, super soldiers on Mars, no. Yeah, super soldiers on Mars. We need more evidence.

I'll all entertain, you know, whatever, but you need evidence. You know, you can't just... Yeah, I'm over to all stories. Yeah, but this is fascinating. Okay, so it's like a space supply chain logistics. It's like a space factory, essentially, where they're creating these metamaterials that you can't make on Earth and you need deep space to create them. Yeah.

And then so the non-terrestrial officers, which, just be humans overseeing this supply chain, this space supply chain. Yeah, this is really good because I never even saw it in that way before. Oh, this is fascinating. And what's ironic is they're probably making space travel that much easier by creating these high dielectrics, which involve greater thrust in the Bifield Brown effect. Yeah. So they're like making like, you know, their own program more powerful.

Yeah. With to fit. This is fascinating. Wow. Wow. All right. I like that. like discovery as we go yeah i mean who knows but like that makes it's all speculation it is speculation

but it the idea that we have people in deep space or we have like literal alien like men in black style like aliens walking among us and then we put like navy suits on them commander suits on them they're like you're a non-terrestrial officer or whatever that makes less sense both of those make less sense just don't look at his huge armor shaped eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah he'll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally, but like, you know, it's like that we're stuck between those two options like that or, you know, it's like aliens in like, you know, military garb or, you know, literally humans that we've spent, that we've sent into like super deep space or whatever. I've never believed any of the stories of alien contact with governments. I think it's just outlandish.

Yeah. No, I think a lot of that stuff is pretty ridiculous. It feels like passage material that, is meant to send people down the wrong trail or something. Yeah, at least it doesn't feel like there's a ton of good evidence. I do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people experience things, you know, and, you know, have you ever had anything like that? I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. It was back in 2006. My girlfriend and I are in what we call a bed sit of the UK, tiny flat.

on the first floor, not the ground floor. And we'd gone to bed, we'd gone to sleep. And I was suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain in my left heel. And it felt like 2 or 3 a.m. It felt like I was in deep sleep. It had been a few hours. I'm like, what the hell is that? And I kind of leaned forward to check it out, like something had bitten me.

Then immediately I just went, oh, it was asleep again. In the morning, I woke up. And weirdly, I don't know why I'd gone to bed from my son. on, or at least one sock on, and then I remembered what had happened during the night, and I pulled the sock off, and in my left hill, there were two perfectly circular holes, both about five millimeters in diameter, and one still had a flap of skin hanging off it, like a hole punch used for paper, but about this far apart. What? I know. I thought, what the hell? Well, the first floor. I was trying to think of every

possible conventional explanation, was it a rat? with perfectly symmetrical five millimeter teeth had come to my bed and bit me in the night but I'm on the first floor not the ground floor where like rodents could be

no explanation whatsoever I can't say much more than that but I did later as I got more into electronics electromagnetics I did like scans and stuff and anything come up

couldn't find anything wrong but a few years later I found out because this is something I'm always researching and looking for an answer, because I still haven't got one, there's a company, I don't know if it was Veracine,

there's some chipping, like electronic chipping company, and their process was exactly like that. No way! Yeah, a double injection. And then years later, I've got two bumps that formed where those holes were

and then moved around, and I still have those bumps. What? On my hill today. Do you think, a human did that? Do you think an alien did it? I'm thinking some kind of government tracking. Government tracking? I feel ridiculous saying it.

Well, do you feel ridiculous saying? Because you had a 20-year, you know, prime ministers were negotiating with American presidents on your behalf because the American government had it out for you. So I don't think, you know, I think for a normal person being like, they wanted to chip me or whatever, like that might be a little paranoid. But I think, I think in your case, I'm not so sure, man. Yeah, but even so, I wasn't running away. You know, I was on bail. Everything was safe.

I was contained, as they would put it. But yeah, I just can't explain that. It's just weird as hell. Interesting. And do you still have that in your foot? Still have the bumps. Can I see him? Yeah.

I hope no one's got any foot fetishes or all the opposite. Maybe you can start an only fans after this. All right. Stripty's time. But you've not done this before. It's not for everything. This is wild. Are we ready?

Yeah. So this company, Veritas. No, I think it was Vsign or something. Veracine? I definitely began with the V, but I can't remember. And they do these little chip implants? Yeah. So when I woke up with the holes, they were kind of around here in the corner.

But now they've moved slightly. So one's there, it's a lesser. And the other one's there. The other one's big. Yeah. Like that's like very easy to spot. Yeah. And that's the other one.

Okay. I think I shrunk over time actually. Yeah, it feels smaller. Yeah. Whoa. Weird. The company Gary is talking about here isn't called Veracine. It's called Veracip.

And yes, it's done work in human microchipping. In fact, the company has produced a tiny RFID microchip about the size of a brain of rice that implants under the skin, transmits a unique ID when scanned, and links to a database with personal or medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool. To think something so small can connect you to everything that matters. The chip was introduced to the market in 2002. Just a few years. Just a few years. years before Gary's experience in 2005. And according to Gary, the company's double injection method would cause something that looks

exactly like the two bumps on his foot. I'll let you decide if that's a coincidence or not. If you look a little deeper, Verichip's corporate lineage runs through applied digital solutions, and prospectus filings show that the implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of Raytheon. What we do saves lives. It protects peace and democracy throughout the world. Yes, that Raytheon, one of the largest defense contractors in the world, deeply embedded in military systems, missile guidance, radar, and classified electronics. By the end of the 2000s, Vera chip themselves had secured the rights to technology that would allow the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1.

The proposal described an implant that could determine whether a virus was present, what kind it was, and how serious the threat might be. At that point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person. It would be monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data, completely dystopian, to say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology was likely used in retaliation on an ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnett. So if that were surgically removed, what do you think you would find? I don't know, maybe two lumps of unanalisable material. I don't know. I didn't have so much good equipment back then, but now I have really good stuff

for electromagnetic analysis, radio frequency analysis. And I'd rather do that first before having it removed. You should do all that. Yeah. You should do it like tomorrow. Okay. I'll ask my local doctor. I'm just saying.

I'm just saying, you know, you don't want the names to go missing, like in the, you know, non-terrestrial officers. Like, you want it. You get like, do it now. Yeah, yeah, figure it out. So, I joke, we're in between your implant experience and then this possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials. And I don't know where to go. My head's exploding. But, yeah, I mean, is there anything just going back to the materials thing and the fleet-to-fleet

transfer. It's just so fascinating. And it's fascinating that you're into Townsend Brown, too. Oh, man. It's like you have this, like, hermetic connection to this whole subject. Like, you were meant to, like, see that or something. Like, anything else as far as takeaways from that document, you know, and interpreting it. Because it was, James Fox came out with the program and he, you know, did this great piece on you. But I think a lot of people do take what you found and run with it as far as just the people out there, like their interpretations of it when they see, you know, people discuss it. Yeah.

So this is your interpretation that it's some sort of supply chain in space or something? Well, we stumbled on that together. Together, I guess. So, yeah, I've really connected it in that way that it was a supply chain. It just came to my mind while we were speaking. And in light of what we both know now, it does make sense in terms of potential propulsion, the materials that might be necessary. for that as a dilectric, so it's pretty amazing.

No, it makes total sense. There was a company called Made in Space that tried to do this for a while. There's now a probably more promising company called Varta Space, which does this. It's like factories in space. At the end of the day, you can think of the value proposition as this, is we can do special chemistry

because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing engineer. And then often commercial companies are doing things that have already been done in classified settings. And so the stuff that was done in classified settings, might have been this, you know? Who knows? I mean, right now, I think we, it's like we have that are known, like, six people in space, like six astronauts, like on, you know, the ISS and on

various space station, I think, you know, Chinese space station, they have an astronaut or two. So the idea that how many officers were on this list? At least 40-ish. 40-ish. So maybe they're in space or maybe they were also in orbit or maybe they were just managing this non-terrestrial you know kind of atomic layer deposition process or you know materials manufacturing or something yeah I've always thought

there weren't aliens I thought this is bound to me because it says non-terrestrial this is not extraterrestrial so in other words they're on a fleet there's a base in space on earth ambition comes in all shapes and sizes at first city Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank.

When we talk about a speculative secret space program, we should establish something clearly. There really was an uncontested, very real, and now declassified secret space program. The U.S. Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA's more public-facing ones. In the 1960s, while the world watched Saturn 5 rockets rise under the banner of Apollo, the Air Force was developing the manned orbiting laboratory. A military space station designed for reconnaissance of America's enemies and other orbital operations. 17 military astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built.

Titan 3 rockets were assigned. Launches into polar orbit were planned from Vandenvents. And then, in June of 1969, exactly one month before the Apollo mission reached the moon for the first time, the manned orbiting laboratory was canceled. Advances in automated spy satellites made human observers redundant. Vietnam was draining resources. The Apollo program was imminent, so the classified space program was folded. But in defense culture, cancellation does not necessarily mean disappearance.

Programs are restructured. Personnel are reassigned. Infrastructure is absorbed into deeper compartments. So what happened to the military astronaut program? Where did the classified orbital expertise go? And what was really going on with the classified space program? In 1993, former Lockheed Skunkworks Director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA alumni event. Rich had overseen programs like the U-2, the SR-7. and the F-117, stealth aircraft that had lived in total secrecy before becoming public knowledge.

At the end of his presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich's final slide showed a black disc-shaped craft flying into space. He closed with the famous words, we now have the technology to take ET home. Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just two years later, but towards the same, the end of his life. He would privately say things that sounded very similar to this UCLA speech, things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could barely dream of. Just before Ben Rich passed away, he said, Jim, we have things out in the desert, and he wasn't referring to Area 51. We have things on the desert that is 50 years beyond what you can comprehend.

I can comprehend a hell of a lot. And he said, if you see movies like, Star Trek or Star Wars, we've been there, done that, or decided it wasn't. Ben Rich's son, Michael Rich, was the president and CEO of Rand Corporation for decades. Rand was the Santa Monica-based federally funded research and development center, evaluating the prospects of Project Orion. Nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets, and enable long-duration missions. Not coincidentally, RAND has also conducted comprehensive research on the non-engineering side of deep space travel, crew psychology and isolation, life support logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities.

Rand Corporation also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity manipulating deep space propulsion work of Townsend Brown. His work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967. President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities and his diary entry from June 11, 1985. Lunch was with five top space scientists. It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier. And some of the developments there in astronomy, etc., are like science fiction, except they're.

are real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such we could orbit 300 people. You read that right. Not one shuttle crew, not a single mission, 300 people in Earth's orbit, in space. If you ask your favorite AI conversation agent, it'll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today. But we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s? In 2020, Haim Eshed, former head of Israel's Defense Ministry's Space Directorate, essentially the father of the Israeli space program, publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien representatives were operating

on underground bases on Mars. These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades, and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a secret space force, Stargate. With visible cooperation from the US Air Force, The production of the show Stargate leaned on real-world military structures and culture. In fact, two sitting Air Force Chiefs of Staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper,

appeared on the show as themselves. These guys literally ran the Air Force and were showing up for cameos on this show. The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an honorary brigadier general in recognition of what the Air Force described as the program's positive portrayal of the service. This shows central premise? A classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility. Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff. Or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret.

Strange stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think. Like this stunning revelation shared with Ross Colthart on Chris Ramsey's Area 52. There was a conversation I had with someone who, I trust, who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon. Wow. And what do you make of that? I didn't know what to make of it. It's important to remember that the public didn't even know the NRO or National Reconnaissance Office existed for decades. The parallel classified Air Force astronaut program wasn't fully declassified until 2015. So is it so crazy to think we might have experimented with covert human spaceflight and exotic material supply chain since the?

then? The benefits of building materials in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of its lower gravity environment, behaves in ways that are basically impossible on Earth. Without gravity, there's no convection, no settling, no buoyancy tearing materials apart as they form. Liquids stay perfectly mixed. Crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws, potentially outperforming anything made on the ground. So it's also not that crazy to assume that we've experimented with this technology for extremely high-value metamaterials used at the highest levels of aerospace. Now, where would such a program be headquartered?

NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston is not only where McKinnon found UFO-related images and spreadsheets. It's the NASA complex that specifically focuses on human space. spaceflight. The notorious line, Houston, we have a problem, refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So if you were operating a manned spaceflight operation involving a material supply chain, that's exactly where you'd put it. I should be clear, too, like, both of us aren't trying to fully pour cold water on UFO crashes. Like, I think... No, not at all. I think, like, I think Roswell happened. I think that Virginia happened in 1996.

So it's always yes and in the UFO world. Like it's all the, but I think intentional conflations also are systematically done by the intelligence world. And it's important to be able to parse through all these things. Yeah. And of course, it's human nature to super associate stuff with something you want to be true. So we can all fall down that hole as well. Yeah, no, of course. Well, I'm officially shocked.

This is crazy. I mean, the Navy does do, like, the most exotic materials stuff as well. Like, there's just placed naval surface warfare at crane that does this. Batel Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic material stuff as well. And so, yeah, I really, I do wonder if, you know, yeah, some of this is human made. And then if you say it's of alien provenance, then it's this, like, perfect, you know, kind of black box where, like, people can interpret it however they want. And yeah, it's a great shield, isn't a good umbrella? It is.

And then the fact that, and what's wild is that, like, you're now experimenting with materials, like you literally have materials in mind that make the bifield brown effect. Like, you're interested in these anti-gravity experiments that involve some of these chemicals that and materials that you saw. Yeah. Which is wild. Yeah. Well, the, yeah.

Yeah, since 2007, since I first read about Blypho Brown. How'd you read about it? How'd you come across it? I don't remember precisely, but it was... Because that's early. Yeah, it was undoubtedly researching UFO stuff. Yeah. Anti-gravity stuff specifically would have brought me to that.

But, yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can do this, and, you know, home garage or shed or whatever. You know, you don't have to be a scientist. You have to be a scientist to understand the mechanism, which no one has yet does. But you don't have to be a scientist to do it on the bench and try some experiments. Because a capacitor, two conductive plates, in between them, sandwiched an insulator, a dialetering that stores an electric charge. So, you know, what's complicated about that? And if you read all the so-called research into the BB effect, none of it's exhaustive, none of it.

It's all, oh, I did 5 kivolvol to DC, I did 10 kovolvon to AC. Obviously, Bueller went very far. There are a few people that went far. Army Research Laboratory. But no one's done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of dielectrics, a multitude of different plates, the mass of the plates, not just the material. Is it AC? Is it DC? Do you use a side wave? Do you use a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth wave or how long's your pulse? What's your delay? It's so many, well, there's quite a few parameters compared to a lot of stuff. But for a home experimenter, it's doable within a few hundred hours, I think. And I've probably done about 60 hours, all told. I've done thousands of hours of reading, but probably 60 hours experimentation. Wow. Wild. So you've done 60 hours of running the actual experiment. Oh, no, no, no. Like research into materials. Yeah, I did try. I mean, I started off with lifters.

Okay. Yeah. Try and get a baker fall. And that was, you know, it's interesting. Yeah. But it's boles the word in bakerfall. And there was, there used to be a website called Blaze Lamps. Mm-hmm. And they had some really well-informed guys, the ex-airospace, that knew all the, like, aerodynamic mass. and stuff, and they said, just like Army Research Laboratory, they said there's no way that this battered metal foil sheet, which isn't even perfectly smooth like an airplane wheel. There's no way that aerodynamically that can be pushed just by ion flow, just no way.

ARL said it was like at least 10, 20% above what could be achieved by ion flow. Which is exactly what Brown said. And so for the audience, Townsend Brown is this mid-century, very mysterious, inventor who started with the Navy, then joined Martin Vega, which was pre-lockied Martin merger, the year that Skunk Works formed, and then kind of popped up in all sorts of, you know, three-letter agency contexts and was, you know, shoulder to shoulder with elite American military brass,

people like Curtis LeMay, you know, it was just a very mysterious figure who consistently claimed that he would get these positive results in these anti-gravity experiments, or what, he called electrogravatics. There's even a video of him popping champagne from the Bonson Lab at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost studying anti-gravity and literally convening all of the best theoretical physicists

on the question of gravity in 1957. And it was all sponsored by Wright Airfield, which is where all the UFO rumors come from. They were literally paying for this, you know, for a lot of this research. Connections. Yeah, weird connections. And so if you take what he claimed about his own experiments at face value,

you'd have this crazy update against, you know, SpaceX and like chemical combustion. It would be this like total paradigm shifting thing. It's not a small deal. It's a really big deal. And the thing about Brown is we almost know, we know for a fact that he was one of the number one radar guys in the Navy. There's an FBI file from 1942 or three. that basically says he knows more about radar

than anybody in the Navy. And that's number one. Number two, electrohydro-dynamics, which is not electro-gravitics, it's the manipulation of airflow with electric fields, which is how that the tin foil, you know, balsa wood,

you know, DIY, foilers work and fly. But it's also what made it into the B2 stealth bomber. And I'm pretty sure. I kind of have the receipts on that, too. So, like, that's, so you have these two things where he's, like, the best, like, E.H.D., you know, electrohydrodynamics and radar.

And then he's claiming that he could also merge electromagnetism and gravity, which is the holy grail of physics. And so it's like, okay, so, like, he's right on two out of the three things, but he's a total quack on the third thing. And there's so much smoke around it. And then now you have the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA who could. is the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is only attributable

to conventional electrostatics. And he's saying that, no, this is, it works, it works in a vacuum, so you can't do it with ionized air. Physics in its current form cannot explain this. And his own experiments, Charles Bueller, who you mentioned, are derivative of Townsend Brown's work. And so, like, I think there is so much smoke. There's a Japanese experiment that you mentioned.

the musha paper. Yeah, Mocha tequila. And the, G. B. F. B. F. got his name wrong. They say that they get, you know, a successful result.

In that case, I think they submerge the whole thing in, and transmission oil. Yeah. Which also, you can't ionize transmission oil. Like, you know, that's not going to work. So, yeah, are they coordinating with these people in the U.S.?

For, like, you know, are they like some deep state thing in Japan? Like, I don't think so, you know? It's like this global thing. So, Yeah, this is wild. So when we were setting this up and, you know, I was talking to you on the phone and you were like, yeah, I'm super into Townsend Brown. I was like, what does this?

This is going to be the best interview ever. Well, yeah, the most I really enjoyed your, I call it your Bifield Brown special. I don't know if that's what you. I'll take it. Yeah, it's called the Bifil Brown special. Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you. Well, kudos to you for being into Townsend Brown in 2007 because the man who mastered gravity by Paul Shatskin was this great biography.

that only came out in like, I think, around the pandemic, and he had this other version of it that wasn't really edited super neatly or concisely. I think that might have come out in like 2009 or something, and he kind of stepped away from the project. But 2007, like, you're talking about Townsend Brown being on the dark corners of the web. Like the, like, you got to like, you know, get the... That's where I used to live.

It sounds like it. Yeah, man. And wasn't Paul Leviolet, who first... introduce the idea of the B2 using that. Yeah, so here's where I think Paul Leviolet got wrong, because he wrote this great history of anti-gravity. And he talks about microwave beam propulsion alongside Towns Brown's Bifield Brown effect.

And, you know, he's a really brilliant guy. He had his own theory called sub-quantum kinetics. Oh, yeah, his whole, yeah. Which was fascinating. And he seems like just a brilliant, I would have loved to have interviewed him. He died a few years ago, sadly. He's dead.

Yeah, it sucks. Yeah. No, wait, I was an email contact with him. I thought up until two years ago, but obviously got that wrong. And we were going to have a, I was going to start a podcast. Oh. And he was going to be my first interviewing. Oh, dude, that would have been the best thing.

But he said he had hip problems. He was undergoing hip surgery or something. So he, oh, man. Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a real bummer. And, but I think where he, and it's an amazing book and everybody should read it. But I do think he says that the B2 had like an anti-gravity.

arrive. And I don't think that's correct. I think... I thought he just said the leading edge. It was like a capacitor, but the leading edge was one plate and the trailing edge was another plate. And I think he's right about that, but I think that just manipulates the airflow. Like, that just makes the airflow reduce the lift to drag ratio. Yeah, it wasn't a full drive. Or increase the lift to drag ratio. Sorry. Yeah, so it made it slightly faster. Yeah, it makes it more aerodynamic and faster. I mean, maybe there's some real electro-gavitic thing happening. But there'd be no way to, like, fully say because it's happening not in a vacuum.

So, like, maybe there is something, you know, actually happening there that is, you know. It's top secret. And it's super, yeah, it's top secret. But I also don't know why they would necessarily declassify the B-2 if it was using electro-gravitics per se. I will say there is a guy named William Gunston, who is the preeminent aerospace, journalist in the UK, or was. And, you know, it's part of like the Royal Air Society and has all these awards and stuff. And for, I think it was like Air International magazine. He did like a history of, you know, Arrow Engine Tech since World War II. And then he gets to Townsend Brown and he goes,

with Townsend Brown, like, you know, I will refrain from talking about, you know, leading edges charged to millions of volts positive, followed by trailing edges charged to millions of volts negative because I don't want to end up in the Tower of London. And then he says that. And then he caveats it a little bit more. So, like, I don't know if that caveatting is genuine, you know, unsureness of what he's saying. In the Tower of London, which for the audience was a place of torture.

Was a place of torture? Does it mean professionally or, like, as a whole, like, giving away secrets? Or if he's literally saying, these are state secrets. And then I don't know if the caveats are like, I don't want, you know, I really don't want to be implicated for having said this. I'm going to sprinkle in some doubt or whatever. I don't know. But it's interesting.

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Oh, hell yeah. I'm planning it by April of the latest. I've been distracted for a while and had to do other things. I'm only doing these experiments in a 10 by 10 foot shed. And they're not expensive, but they consume a lot of time. Yeah. And I have, I'm basically doing industrial processes in a garden shed. So it's a bit, I've got, but the first thing I bought, because you have to heat this stuff to a thousand degrees, the calcium copper titulate, to a thousand degrees.

And then I had to buy a 10 tonne hydraulic press. I bought a gas furnace. And then because of the geometry and stuff, that wasn't unusual. So then I bought an electric furnace, which is much smaller and, you know, it could, it, easy to manipulate this tiny disk. So cool. It's only 40mm meters across. I'm starting off very small.

So I've got to make that into what they call a green body, make that solid. I bought really high quality silver paste as the plates. But then after that, you have to think of when you've got these two plates at 30 kilovolks or more, you get arcing currents. You get sparks, basically. So I have to find a way to stop that. And my first thought is to have very small disks on top of the 40mm diameter calcium cover titanate CCO. But there's other ways to do it as well.

So I've got to figure out a path and then completely because I really want to see it float. I want to stand there in my shed, turn the on switch on and see this thing rise. That would be amazing. If you made something levitate, you would. kind of the haters would have nothing to say. Yeah. What do you say at that point? You say it's ionized?

Video is not real these days. It could be AI. Yeah, sure. That's a good point. Would you do this in a vacuum chamber? Yeah, eventually. I do have one vacuum chamber. That's for my resident.

I only goes down to like minus 99 MPA or something. But I mean, GravitTech has done it in a vacuum chamber. They used to contract for NASA. She was Gravitech. Gravitech is under a different name now, but they've got, I can send you the videos. What's his name? Not Henry, Henrik, something.

I've had a few emails with him as well. Yeah, they've done it in a vacuum, a proper vacuum, like, you know, minus hundreds of tall. Shout out to Gravitatech. I want to check them out. I've never heard of that. He's got a different company now, but I've got his email. I'll send you. Oh, please.

Get him on, man. He'd be glad to. I'd love to. And he now does stuff for satellites, I think, like private satellites. Whoa. Not using this. Actually, I don't even know enough to comment, but yeah, he's done it in a vacuum. Interesting.

And it is less than a effect. Why wouldn't he pursue it like, you know, more substantively after that? Sounds like you just went straight to satellite. Yeah, I think you want to be commercial, make money, do well for himself. And probably maybe that's as far as he wants it to go. It works in a vacuum. But also you have like Jean-Louis Naudin, the French kind of YouTube scientist, I want to call it. I don't know his credentials, for real.

He's done it in vacuum tubes. He's isolated the electrode in vacuum tubes. But I don't know what the pressure was. This is, I mean, yeah, so you're right. There is this whole global community of DIY independent creators, aerospace professionals who in their private life just want to pursue this or UFO nuts or whatever outside of, you know, whatever they're doing. And most of them say that there's a there there.

There are very few people that say there aren't the there. The ones that do, I believe there's, you know, an Air Force, the guy, this is his last name is Talley, and he's an Air Force guy. And I think he consistently uses very low voltage and tries to explain it away. And I even, I spoke to this one Navy scientist, and he was like, Talley's just a bad actor. Like, he's, like this guy in UFO world named Sean Kirkpatrick, who's the former Aero director, who's, like, brought on to, like, you know, dismiss. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, Tim Ventura, all propulsion. Yeah, I do, yeah, he's a good guy, yeah. Yeah, he had that guy on that did, had similar effects with very low voltage, like 5KV, 5 kilobols. I think it was, no? Because Bueller thinks it's the electric. Yeah, so this is the NASA electrostatics. I get confused because there was a previous Bueller in my old documentation for like pre-2000s. Whoa.

Unless that was his dad or maybe it was because he, was he like mid-50s now? Maybe it was him. in your old documentation Yeah, yeah, I've got documents with a Bueller And I didn't think it was him, but maybe it is We didn't do that dockswop We said we'd do a doxpot Oh yeah

Oh shit, yeah, I'd love to Yeah, yeah Do you have like a lot of compiled information about This sort of stuff? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool, interesting A huge zip file And in terms of free energy There's one thing

I found, not I've found, but I found the guy that discovered it. So, Lenzies law, stops the motor rotating because of the counter electromagnetic force. If you look at the formula

for that, the strong element of that is the inductance of the coil. And this guy found that if you increase the induct, his name is Thain Heinz, if you increase the inductance of the coil, then the rise time of the opposing magnetic field

that slows the turning of the motor down when you're applying power to a load is delayed, just like delaying timing in a car engine. And he found that not only could, he delay it enough to stop the CEMF counter-relation motor force dragging, creating electromagnetic drag. When it's past a certain point, phase angle, it assisted the rotation.

Wow. Yeah, yeah. So your standard electric generator is a disk with magnets and underneath it coils. And he found that when, so the magnet is spinning around, it gets to what they call TDC, top dead center above the coil, with his method, because it delays that opposing, because when the magnet's a, let's say it's a north pole facing down and it cuts into the coil, that creates a south pole in the coil that opposes the incoming movement of the. magnet. And then when the magnet's moving out of the coil, it creates a north pole, which accelerates it out. And he found that when you do this stupidly simple, but incredibly effective time delay, the CMF rises in such a way it's late on the income. So the magnet gets pulled in. And it's early on the outgoing, so the magnet gets pushed out. So accelerates the incoming and the outgoing.

And he took it to such an extent that eventually there's no opposition at all. And you can actually reverse, you're not reversing Lenz's law, because that's an inaccurate physics statement. But you're reversing the effect. In effect, you are. Yeah. And I did a small experiment. I'll send you the video. I did the most simple magnetic emoji you can.

I had a cylinder-shaped magnet, which is diametrically magnetized. It's not north-on-top south and the bottom. Each curved half is a north and south pole. I had that in a vertical shaft rotating, and I show it with a normal generator coil, which when you attach it to a load, the power input needed increases to support the load, and the rotation slows down. Well, when I put his coil on, which has higher inductance, when you tell that coil to power a load, the rotation speed increases,

and the input current goes down, the complete opposite of much. Motor theory. Motor generated theory. Whoa. That's the one and only thing I've seen and been able to replicate the works in terms of free energy. And this guy is now, he's got contracts with Siemens, Phillips are with him, he's talking to China. It's about to blow up.

Whoa. And I've been following him since about 2007, on overunity.com, the first forum I saw him. Fast. What's his name? Thane Heinz. Where's she based? He's Canadian physicist. Mm.

Yeah. Dude, you are deep down the rabbit hole of alternative propulsion and energy. You've got to interview this guy. I would love to. He's like your general kind of crazy mad genius. He's not so good at social interaction. Yeah. But he's got it, man.

It's typical of somebody who makes like real breakthroughs like that, you know, for them to be not always like the most. I think he's got a lot in his mind. I think he's got a lot on his mind as well. It's fascinating. What do you think this chip in your foot? Like, does it, does it ever, like, burn or buzz or... No. Sometimes clothes?

No. So there's nothing... Basically, you've gotten no incremental information on it outside of... Just a couple of lumps that have moved over time towards the inside of the arch of the foot. Strange. Yeah. Have you ever had a sort of, like,

any sort of men in black experience or experience with... you know, strange men in suits showing up at your place? No, but my lawyer had her office and her car robbed. Really? Which is obviously not men in black as more earthly powers. No, nothing men in black. Mm. Did, okay, so when you hacked in to all of these sensitive American military sites,

how did you get caught and what happened next? Oh, man. Yeah, I got lazy, got egotistic. I thought, oh, I can go anywhere I like, look at anything. And I started making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses. So I was making direct connections to, you know, the target. And I was using like free AOL sign-up CDs. So I wasn't being at all, like a professional hacker.

I was just, yeah, I thought I could just do it. I thought, oh, these guys don't even know, don't even have passwords. They wouldn't even know I've been here. But yeah, eventually obviously when that guy right clicked the land icon and disconnected me, that was NASA.

And they reported to BT, British Telecom which is my internet service provider at the time and said, who's this IP? And this time. And they said, I was, uh, in fact, they didn't have my name at first. I don't know if my internet account was

my girlfriend's name or if I were using their aunt's internet or something. But the whole thing, but the horrible thing was when they came with a national high-tech crime year they came to arrest me the warrant was for the whole house and they came early in the morning arrested me my girlfriend my girlfriend's aunt's daughter who was only like 12 or something at the time so it's quite a horrible experience in the extended family and all my fault and why they arrested 12 year old well just to question sure not not arrest on detained not to jail yeah yeah that's still uh

must have been traumatic for that. Yeah, because they didn't know who the person was. They knew someone at that address. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And unfortunately, yeah, my ex-girlfriend's cousin, he was quite antithoriatarian, and it was quite alternative. And I think they thought it was him. Oh, it must be him.

He's got purple hair. He must be the guy. Oh. So, yeah, I'm laughing now, but it's horrible because it affected so many other people. You know, my stupid curiosity. James mentioned something about guys looking over. you at your bed or something, like at night or something? Oh, no, that's probably when I was arrested because I was arrested in my sleep.

Wait, so you were arrested in your sleep? Yeah, the National High Tech Crime Unit. I'd been up all night playing Galactic Civilizations 4, was up for some big space game, and probably smoking still as well, and gone to bed late, so I was asleep at 8 in the morning, but girlfriend was getting ready to go to work, knock, dog, knock, choosing her dressing gown, they're patting her down and pushing her into a room. come into my room. I'm in bed and I've got Scarlett. Gary McKinnon, I'm Jeff Donson from the National High Take

Crime Unit. You're under arrest for computer misuse act. And then from that point onwards, the UK was like okay with more of kind of a slap on the wrist sort of thing and then it was the US that was like, no, we need to extradite him now. And then you mentioned, they changed the extradition laws to make it this sort of blanket thing that applied to you? Yeah, definitely. So when I was first arrested, the National High Tech Crime Unit, who were the arrested body, said to me, you'll do six months inside, maybe community service,

maybe no jail time, because under UK law, all I did was unauthorised access. You know, I didn't break anything or steal anything or make money or anything like that. But then these officers went to America, to ONI, and I must say, Office of Naval Intelligence because there's another O&I, there's an intelligence, is there? I think, investigation or something, but... I don't know. Yeah. And when they came back, they had a very heavy tone,

a completely different tone about them. They were very impressed by meeting with the top brass in Washington. And, yeah, oh, this guy cost $5,000 of damage on every PC he was on, you know, which is just stupid. How do you damage the hardware if you just do these software hack that we're calling a hack, but you're using like off the shelf stuff.

Yeah. It's like PC anywhere. Yeah. But I think what they're called damage is the time it took them to take them offline. So the machines are unusable for a while, investigate them. So it's, you know. You know what? It feels like kind of white hack hacking to me because you didn't actually end up using any of the files in a way to hurt the U.S.

or their, like, again, you can say what you will about Snowden or Dessand or any of these guys. Like, there's nothing you did to, like, knock the U.S. down a leg. as far as their tactical ability to, like, you know, do things. So it's almost like a white hat hack because the costs they incurred to take the stuff down and reset them, they would have needed to do anyways. That would have been, what if like a malicious person had like, you know, penetrated all these servers? That's what I'm saying. So they're actually extremely lucky.

And it also, $5,000? Where are you buying your PCs for? No, they should. I mean, literally white hat hackers get paid. So, like, I think they should pay it. All right. I'm just saying. Please send the email.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, no, I'm serious. It's like you literally, you didn't do anything showing malintent once you got the info. They got the info back. And then they reset, ideally, their computer networking and architecture in a way that, you know, these sort of fishing attacks couldn't be done. These are basic things that you're using.

Yeah. So I just, like, I think it's like insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in, in, like, middling bureaucracy who's trying to cover their ass. They're like, this took us all this. Well, you should have done it before. Yeah, what are you doing? You're not doing your job.

Yeah, yeah. If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had figured out in 2000, that would be one thing. That would be like, okay. And then you used it in this sort of detrimental way to American National Security. Art decryptu den essay. Yeah, but otherwise, I mean, I don't know, man. That feels like kind of crazy.

Okay. So then what happens to the extradition laws? Oh man So Yeah the original extradition law Which I think was 1989 Was a good Basic law

We accuse this British citizen Of having committed a crime In or against America We have this evidence And it's a crime over here And it's a crime over there So we should have him in America To stand trial

Totally fair, totally reasonable But then I mean This is the weird thing thing in law computer crime is a weird thing it's a gray area because it's not physical where where's your bum at the seat when you commit the crime there's lots of like questions that are legally intransigent you know like how do you place this um so what happened was I was arrested in 2002 and in March and then I was re-questioned by the the NHTCU went to

visit the DOJ in August. then they came back then they re-interviewed me in November 2002 and that's when their tone had changed very serious you're accused of harming military systems that alert could be years in prison

and that's when you know things really got serious for me I thought my God this is just blown out of all proportion but we were protected by the extradition law because there had to be evidence of malintent etc

and when I did my police interview I completely admitted to what I'd done because it was all on the hard drive you know i said yeah it's all an hard drive i went there and i got this document went to another place got other documents so i was open about it thinking oh six months like they told me i'll be fine and they said community service i can do both i'll be fine although i wouldn't have liked six months in prison but um when it came to november and then they threatened extradition then on paper it was 70 years in jail 70 years it was like 10 seven counts 10 years per count

And I just went crazy. I thought, this is absolutely mad. What are we going to do? And there was a lot of, like, the UFO community in America wanted me to stand trial in America. It was like a martyr. Right. Yes, it would be great. He'll come over.

They'll open all the secrets and he'll make it have to. But what America actually said, the DOJ said, that I'd be tried under military order number one, which is Guantanamo status. totally secret, no media interview, no media cover, no family visits, you know, me in an orange suit with my red hair. I'm joking, sorry. But yes, it went really scary, like really scary, like over the top, like, well, you know, Kafka-esque. Yeah.

Many people said, damn. Hey, you must have been, you must have felt horrible. You must have been like the, you know, world's out to get me, or the most powerful. or the most powerful nation in the world, you know, is out to get me. Yeah. And that must be a scary feeling. Yeah, well, it started in late 2002.

And by 2008, because we lost so many court cases and hearings, I've given up all hope, and I thought there's no way I'm going to give my fucking life to a foreign jail. And I bought potassium chloride, one of the three chemicals, in the lethal injection. And I thought, if I get that decision, I'm just going to not inject it. I looked up how many grams per kilogram of body weight,

and I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die. Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required to make a decision is whether Mr. McKinnon's extradition to the United States would breach his human rights. After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr. McKinnon's extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life that a decision to extradite would be incompatible with mr mckinan's human rights i have therefore withdrawn the expedition extradition order against mr mckinon that was incredible teresa may so yeah it's heavy that's heavy man that's really intense and uh i'm sorry it got to

that uh place because that's it's ridiculous if you look at the fact pattern it's just insane Yeah. And again, I'm saying that some of these other whistleblower cases, there are nuances to them. You know, I'm saying yours, I think it's an absolute witch. That's crazy. Yeah, I agree. It's just crazy. Yeah, I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry. I mean, that's just awful. I'm sorry on behalf of my country. Well, you're all the government, Jesse. That's true. I don't have to forgive you. Okay. Well, yeah, it's just not a good representation. But, yeah. Well, America's a great country, and the people are great. It's just, there's been some very bad governance since World War II, in my humble opinion. Yeah, no.

And on this side of the pond as well, the British as well. Sure, yeah. No, and it's crazy that you were, I mean, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Theresa May, all of these UK prime ministers were thinking about you. You were this really important case because the ex, you said that the extradition law was changed literally right after you did what you did. Yeah, this is one thing I didn't mention. We saw a draft of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers, and it was written,

a British extradition treaty with America was written in American English, which is kind of a clue as to who's calling the shots. And, you know, American spelling in an English legal document. And also a lot of the phrases were almost verbatimals. taken from some of my charges. So I think it's not that there's anything special about me, but it was what I did. At that time, the American DoD systems were getting like 250,000 attacks, hacking attacks. If you read the general accounting office documents at the time, and still to this day. So I think they needed to do something, and then needed to increase the punishment,

and they needed a poster boy. So timing. It's everything, isn't it? Yeah, because there had been big hackers before you, right? Like, what's the name of the guy who hacked into the DOE Department of Energy and, like, atomic labs? Matthew Bevan. Matthew Bevan. Yeah. And so this was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional hacker.

Is that safe to say? Or also kind of was like a vigilante? Yeah, no, I think he was more skilled than I was. He didn't just do blank password hack. He found, you know, weaknesses in protocols. Okay. So he was more advanced. But, yeah, and he was earlier.

He was in the 90s. And then what happened to him? He was basically. Slop on the wrist. He did go through some shit. Don't get me wrong, Matthew, if you're listening. But, yeah, he didn't face a long term. There were a few of these cases before you where I think in a certain case it was like 100,000

computers ended up with malware, you know. Oh, yeah, well, I mean, yeah, if you want to know who's the most successful hacker, it's not a person, it's a virus. Yeah. Like the love, love what's it, I can't remember, but I'm talking about specifically there's precedent for UK-based hackers hacking into U.S. systems, which neither of us are suggesting anyone do, you know, it's not, you don't hack into, you know, national security stuff, you know. This is, this is a lesson. But in, in those cases, they did worse stuff than you. Yeah. And they just got slaps on the wrist.

And then you're this, like, UFO interested, you know, you want to know if there's, like, free energy or whatever, like, for your own edification. Yeah. Like, not because you want to do some, like, you know, terrorist thing or, like, undermine, you know, American supremacy in any way or whatever. And, like, they just come after you. Yeah. And so they change the... Which tells you... Yeah, what's important to them is it someone, like, cleverly stealing money in a cyber-forward way, which a lot of...

people have done? Or is there a UFO truth? Is it yeah, well, no, it might show that that actually you know, hit a trigger point. Like the like cigar-shaped tick-tack object, you know, flying in deep space, you know,

that might be this really sensitive thing that they just really don't want to talk about. Then the non-true, the space supply chain thing, I could see that, you know. They don't want to talk about that either. But as a counterpoint to that, that information was already out. Donna Hears, Sure.

So it's kind of, if it's already out, why go so heavy on this guy? As a counterpoint to that, like, there's proof that you got into these sites. Donna here, it's always going to be this kind of, like, single sample size, end of one story told. And you can always be like, that person was crazy. Yeah, good. But, like, when in your case, like, they have, like, you know, there's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? You can't go to the U.S. now. I'm on the Interpol Red List.

You're on the Interpol Reg list. That's crazy. I don't even think I knew that. Hopefully I'm good. But yeah, like, like, you know, with, with, I think in your case, there's no arguing with the fact that you got into these sensitive sites. So the fact that you're saying you saw a Tick-Tac, you know, in deep space, but above Earth. And then you saw these non-terrestrial, maybe 40-some-odd officers. like, you know, that's, that's like pretty, it's like a little deeper, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. But like, to the point that like you shouldn't be blamed, it's like you didn't sign something. You didn't, you didn't like sign up to like, you didn't weren't like working at one of these places. You were like high in your girlfriend's aunts. I would manage that if I was intel. I was like, how haven't we managed this guy and then?

I think they were probably quite happy when I got diagnosed with Asperger's in 2008, 2009. Okay, he's mentally ill. It's fine then. Right, right, right. Like a put-away, I would put him in the mentally ill draw. Do you ever think, like, the chip is somehow either monitoring you, A, or B, it's like feeding you ideas or anything? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You start glitching right now, yeah.

Yeah. Do you ever think it has some sort of, you know, I don't know. No, my mind feels the same as it always has. Okay. But I do want to do some further scanning with way more modern enough to do. You should, yeah. Yeah. So interesting.

I wish, Doctor, what was his name? The guy that used to scan implants. He's dead now. Roger Lear. Roger Lear. Yeah. I wish he was around and could come to the UK. Yeah, he'd be the perfect guy.

Yeah. I might know if somebody else who can help you out. Yeah, exactly. Explain what's going on quickly. I can't turn my phone off. Here, look, look. Yeah, let's document all of this. You can see my finger is on the power button and both.

This is like a hard reset. put my fingers on the power button and volume up and volume down at the same time and nothing nothing that's never happened before absolutely it's never happened before it's insane but you're with gary mckenon and i'm with gary mckenon who has a live arrest warrant famously said i didn't do it this was the you know everything i'd hoped it would be this conversation it's so fun and uh i really hope you pull off this Byfield Brown effect. I think it would be this beautiful kind of, I don't know, vindication. You know, I'm not saying what you did was fine,

but I think you were completely persecuted in this horrible way. And I love the fact that, by the way, the UK rallied behind you, and you ended up, you know, singing with, you know, David Gilmore, you know, the lead singer the Pink Floyd, you know, and like you have all these people, you're like kind of this people's champion. Crosby Still's Nash, man, one of my favorite hippie bands when I was young. Wait, what did, with Crosby, Sills and Nash? Yeah.

They were, like, rallying behind you as well? Yeah, they did, they just, like, mentioned me in one song at one of their gigs, but, you know, thousands of people. I didn't know that. Yeah. It's so cool. You've seen all these bands I'd love when I was litter. I was like, God, it was crazy because you really depressed, but you're seeing all your musical heroes. Yeah.

Vouching for you. But you're also, didn't you sing with David Gilmore? Yeah, and Chrissy Hind and Bob Geldof. But I didn't actually only sang in the same studio. the same time with Chrissy Heights so i didn't get to meet david gilmore or uh bob gildoff unfortunately well wild thank you teresa may for making the right decision and uh you know letting you go and uh i think the u s should drop their arrest warrant and uh i think so too that i could go on holiday yeah yes you can go on a nice vacation and uh yeah

hopefully next time i see you it's in the states and uh yeah that'd be fantastic it'd be great thanks for a great interview man absolutely gary no it was an honor it was a lot of fun And yeah, hopefully, you know, I think we made a little bit progress here, too, in terms of piecing some things together. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, logistic supply chain. Exactly. Sweet. All right.

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