American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Ground News ➤ Go to https://ground.news/jessemichels to uncover the truth behind the headlines. Save 40% on the Ground News unlimited access Vantage plan with my link. Qualia ➤ Resist aging at the cellular level, try Qualia Senolytic. Go to https://Qualialife.com/JESSE for up to 50% off and use code JESSE at checkout for an additional 15% off. For your convenience Qualia Senolytic is also available at select GNC locations near you. Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with researcher UAP Gerb. UAP Gerb's YouTube ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UCXr8USOuzZN_3y_efZpryrg This was one of the most mind blowing, information-dense interviews we’ve ever done. UAPGerb is a deep wellspring of knowledge on UFO crash retrievals and reverse‐engineering. He takes us on a comprehensive tour of Air Force Bases, Deep Underground Military Bases and “Federally Funded Research Organizations” associated with UFO reverse engineering efforts across the United States. He is in touch with multiple firsthand eyewitnesses of crafts and “biologics” in military intelligence and private aerospace. Gerb traces the roots of these clandestine operations from early Cold War initiatives—such as the 1947 Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit and Battelle’s project Stork working with Blue Book — to modern-day programs allegedly managed by the NSA and DOE. He reveals specialized teams, identified by DOE rain jackets and black fatigues operating from sites like Area51’s S4 near Papoose Mountain, Dugway Proving Grounds, and Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. With references to the famous Twining memo and testimonies from figures such as Philip J. Corso, Robert Sarbacher and Edgar Fouchet, Gerb paints a picture of a multi-layered, continuously evolving and obfuscated UFO program. One in which the dark money spent is unfathomable harkening back to Rumsfeld’s September 10th 2001 speech about trillions missing from the Defense Budget and the great work of Catherine Austin Fitts. -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 01:11 UFO Whistleblowers 03:41 Michael Herrera 08:07 Military and Intelligence Connections 12:08 The Role of Psionics 15:44 Corso's Legacy and UFO Technology 23:21 The Evolution of UFO Research 27:10 The Secretive World of FFRDCs 34:57 Deep Underground Military Bases 42:09 Collaboration in UFO Investigations 50:38 The Complexities of Disclosure 57:03 Bob Lazar and S-4 Connections 1:03:25 Battelle and UFO Research 1:13:36 The Holloman Air Force Base Footage 1:15:17 The Sandler Connection 1:24:06 Whistleblowers and Classified Sightings 1:28:09 The Hidden Technologies 1:37:09 The Role of Dick Cheney 1:50:50 The Alien Reproduction Vehicle 2:03:17 Early UFO Crashes 2:14:53 The Reality of Reverse Engineering 2:24:28 Continuing the Investigation -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [e-mail] #history #research #aliens #military Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The information density of your channel is drinking from a fire hose of mind-blowing facts. The Golden Age of Army R&D has a lot of really interesting research we can parallel today and talk about later. But during this time, the Foreign Technology Division was trying to use recovered technology to use human brainwaves to guide ICBM missiles. Whoa. It is not only possible. It is essential. And then there's also stories about the 1983 Strategic Defense Initiative instituted by Ronald Reagan, which was to act against Soviet ICBMs. This is Star Wars. Yeah.

this likely had a backdoor to fund UAP programs and act offensively against UAP. This technology is obviously not ubiquitous. There's different types of technology. There's different craft design. One could reasonably assume then there's different types of NHI, some man, some not man. That design actually was featured in the first ever episode of the X-Files, which was allegedly based on true stories from John DeSouza. It's the same design. Wow. Different parts of the brain have different activities. But you know that, don't you?

Maybe you should interview me. I'm here with Sammy UAP Gerb who runs, I think, my favorite channel on YouTube that covers UFOs. Literally, the information density of your channel is second to none. It's drinking from a fire hose of mind-blowing facts. I think any 15-second clip from any one of your videos could beget its own entire video on various other channels that are kind of slower and less less fast-paced. I'm just so impressed by you and I'm grateful to call you a friend and I'm really excited to have this conversation. We had another conversation and it looks like that might go up on my WAP, this channel where we're trying to like foster really cool kind of community engagement,

have conversations that kind of take it to the next level when it comes to UFOs. But this follow-up should get crazier because UFO world has gone nuts since we last spoke. So it's an honor to have you here, man. Yeah, thanks so much. I'm happy to be back. I mean, we recorded last time in November since then we had the hearings. We had like the Soul Foundation. We had Jake coming forward. We've had so much to touch on. So like you and I talked about, got this back together because a ton of new topics to touch on old stuff to revisit new information. It's been an exciting time. It's been a crazy time. I don't even know where to start. Maybe we start with the Jake Barbara story.

So we're in unprecedented territory where we have somebody coming out, a UFO whistleblower claiming firsthand knowledge, saying that he retrieved an egg-shaped craft. And then a video coming out of that may have been a little hyped up and anticlimactic. But if you listen to him, a lot of what he says is just extremely internally consistent with, you know, people like Michael Herrera, who you've done a great, great piece on, and a lot of other accounts when it comes to, you know, UFOs and crash retrievals. It kind of vindicates Stephen Greer as well. And so it's kind of hard to poke holes in actually just the core details of the story. But yeah, what's your, what's your take on this whole Jake Parber phenomenon?

To start the video on the News Nation special isn't even, that wasn't taken by Jake. And I think that was rather rushed and overhyped, just like you said, you know, Dr. Nolan came up beforehand, said people would be very happy with this. I don't think anybody but was happy with that. But the whole Jake story for me goes back to investigating Michael Herrera. Way back in the day, I think this was like February of 2024. I made a video on him and Jonathan Waygant. And anybody unfamiliar with Jonathan Waygant, he was a Lance Corporal in the Marines who claimed in 1997 while stationed in Peru under Operation Laser Strike that he encountered a crashed UAP. Kind of large, egg-shaped featured some ubiquitous features that we see in other retrievals. Where's Operation Laser Strike?

Operation Laser Strike was an anti-narco operation in Peru. So there were like ground-based radar systems from U.S. intelligence to track like drug running planes and so forth. What year was this? 97. Okay. And so Jonathan Waygant, Lance Corporal at the time, basically was sent to kind of investigate a crash of an unknown, possibly foreign craft. And he and two other Marines, one Sergeant Allen and another person found a crashed craft. The story is super interesting because it features like Mother of Pearl Effect.

on the skin of the craft, liquid coming from the craft. Explain what Mother Pearl effect is. Kind of like oil on water. Something that Jake and others also kind of described unique features of the shimmering of kind of the craft skin. And also, Weigant spoke of what he assumed to be bodies in the craft with kind of an arm hanging out of the craft. He's only ever done two interviews, one in 2001 for Stephen Greer, one in 2023 under, I think

Dan Willis. And so he is a really interesting person. Are you touched with him? Yes. Yes. Jonathan Weigant is one of the nicest people I've ever met my entire life. Wow. He's a really good guy. Do you find him beyond reproach as a person?

Yes, I fully believe Jonathan Weigant's encounter. Why? There's small details that kind of proved to aid in other research. The reason I covered him and Michael together in a video, besides just the fact they were Marines, is they both talked about a team present. And of course, in Michael's case, he talked about a human-made craft that he encountered. But let's, yeah, let's back up. Right.

So you're saying, so way against this Peru case. And then just for the audience, Michael Herrera is this case in Indonesia with this marine unit. Yes. And they see this sort of, I guess he calls it, Vanta Black, eight-gone shape, which Jake Barber describes as well, craft hovering above the tree tops. He kind of closes in on it. And then this like really elite paramilitary. unit then basically takes his whole unit into sort of custody and kind of reprimands them. And then he thinks that this whole thing is part of some sort of psionic asset trafficking scheme

where UFO legacy programs are actually taking people in third world countries like Indonesia back to the U.S. in order to summon craft. I mean, the whole thing. Well, initially he thought it was human trafficking. And we'll get into this in a few minutes. It was when he gave his testimony, when Michael Herrera gave his testimony at the 2003 Stephen Greer National Press Club show, that's when Jake Barber was sitting in the audience and said, I know about this and contacted Michael.

We backchanneled it. That was us. We back channeled that. That was you. That was me. Oh, my gosh. But in Michael and Jonathan's encounters, so Jonathan said he saw an extraterrestrial craft or a non-human intelligence craft.

Michael has stated, unlike the error report, which lies about this, that he saw a human-made craft. However, there are some similar elements in both aspects. The crash recovery team and Jonathan's story, some of them wore D-O-E-lelettered rain jackets, and there were other seemingly military operators in black fatigues. They spoke with American dialect but featured no insignia. This was the same thing that Michael described. Michael described a little further by stating that these men back in 2009 had really advanced M4 rifles with, you know, beautiful range finders and...

They have bioscanters. Yeah, kind of like a, what he described to be like a modern cell phone to kind of scan their identification and so forth. And so there were some very similar elements, and that's kind of why I covered those two people together now. And that's pretty wild, right, in 2000, what was it? 2009.

Yeah. Yeah, that's like, you know, pretty shortly after the iPhone was released. So, and then, so do you have any sense of what these elite, you know, paramilitary groups, like who they're working on behalf of? Is it UFO legacy program? is the Department of Energy? I know that's been speculated at times. I've reached, I think they're two different teams, to be quite honest.

Because Jonathan, so Jonathan described a team of guys in camouflage with weapons, the black fatigue, sorry, DOE rain jackets, and also men in hazmat suits. So this must have been a specially designed crash retrieval team to contain biologics, spillage, possibly hazardous materials, you know, if you analyze other cases in history, the 1974 Koyama alleged crash and some of the majestic documents. There have been occasions where toxic elements have seeped from crash retrievals and so forth. But I think this is likely a DOE nest team, nuclear emergency search teams. This is kind of almost semi-private institutions.

I mean, back in the day, these nest teams, which were kind of elite operators sent to deal with anything that involved nuclear technology or nuclear secrets. This was comprised of various specialized operators and also received help from contractors like EGNG. We know EGNG from the Wilson Davis memo, from the story of Bob Lizar, Edgar Foucher, so forth, Seapton, and UFO lore. Yes. It seems like Michael, the team he was dealing with, is the same team that Jake Barber is familiar with. And this is like a deep black, former J-Soc Joint Special Operations Command, Tier 1 operators, There's a former Delta, the SEAL Team 6, intelligence support activity, 24th STS, and these guys are bad eggs who are okay with hurting people. Then this is likely strictly private teams.

And so who does it roll up to? Because this is, I was trying to talk to Jake about this, and it's like there's an ongoing FBI investigation so he can't say much. And then I did get him to say, well, you know, you could probably guess. You know, if you had two guesses on the aerospace prime contractor front, like, you know. Can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrievals? Look, man, if you took two guesses, you'd get both of them right on the first try. There you go. And so my guess is, this is me talking, would be like Lockheed and Northrop.

But like, there's this other element of like Department of Energy. Like, who in the government does this roll up to? hear stuff like the CIA's director of science and technology, you know, somebody like Glenn Gaffney would be involved. And back in the day, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence was probably involved in this sort of stuff. But who's in charge from the government perspective now? Gosh, that's a great question. And I think it's probably a very small, small portion of people. I think, like you talked about, elements of DOE and intelligence, CIA. And I think even more so than CIA modern day, the National Security Agency, NSA.

Yep. We know that the CIA deals with human, or human intelligence. Yep. And we know the NSA deals with SIGINT or signals intelligence. As far as why I also say the NSA, so in my projects, I use as much publicly available research as humanly possible. I don't really like to say, well, a source told me this. A source told me this, even though there's, you know, quite a bit of people I talk to that,

you know, we'll never make it on a video or never reveal their identity public. but this individual was in U.S. Army Office of Public Affairs. He served in the mid-2010s, and he said, like, I'm not really afraid of the CIA, but what I'm terrified of is the NSA. So I think if I had to wager, it'd be elements of the NSA pulling a lot of strings. Well, the sort of public-facing review group, you know, the all-domain anomalies, you know, anomalous research organization or office, or I always screw it up, arrow.

Organization, I, one of a mind. Whatever. You know, the main sort of out. fitting UFOs from a public, you know, perspective, uh, the new director was a former director of the national security administration, the NSA, John, John Cuslawski. And so it does beg this question, you know, yeah, how much of this is, is, you know, I often think that the overrated elements of UFOs are just just focused on like metamaterials. Yeah. You know, that's like the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. And then actually it's this way deeper sort of thing around like,

human like signal like the fact that we're like probably getting downloads and stuff and actually there's a book called above black yeah by guy named dan sherman and he goes he's like sort of recruited into this like non-descript you know nsa building and i've heard some from an extremely credible source high open government where if i were to give you this person's title it's just completely beyond reproach saying that that program probably existed. So he's recruited to this like NSA, you know, nondescript building and basically told to do all sorts of weird mind

matter experiments, like collapse a sign wave. He's given these like binaural beats and then like basically he's used as like a sort of, you know, human antenna for like alien signals. And it's part of this thing he calls Project Preserve Destiny

and he says that he's genetically been manipulated in the womb and more and more. I interviewed yesterday a psionic asset who was recruited through the gate program through these gifted student programs or whatever and so I think more and more is coming out of the woodwork around like kids and gifted people and like clairvoyance being approached at a very young age for downloads and signals that they're getting in this guy named Andre Pujerich who I believe you wrote a book called the sacred mushroom in the cross and he had this space kids back in the day where he'd recruit all

these kids to upstate New York, you know, this Roundtable Institute in Maine. And it was, the space kids were meant to basically get downloads from. And Star Trek came from one of these downloads. Gene Ronbury was inspired by this woman named Phyllis Schleiman, Shleiman, I don't know, Phyllis something. Yeah. And that sort of inspired all of Star Trek. And EG and G, I think, actually picked up a lot of the work there. And so super fascinating. That's similar to like Tim Taylor, right? He said some of the ideas for his businesses came via like unknown downloads to his head.

Isn't that what Diana Posulka has kind of said around him and his work? Yeah, that he engaged in protocols to basically download all sorts of information. And, you know, he, I believe started a biotech company called Vivex biotech and sold it for 88 million bucks or something crazy like that. And he claims that a lot of. lot of that was derived from downloads that he got. And I spoke to him for a very brief period of time over the phone once. He sort of disappeared on me after that. And, you know, his whole thing was like, you know, don't use your phone and tap in and like, you know, it all felt like on the one hand, cliche, but maybe actually really fundamental, important advice as far as, you know, being able to

gain access to, you know, better stuff or whatever from, I don't know, the whole thing's really trippy. Well, it's been an interesting year so far, right? all kind of the mention of psionics. I mean, I'm sure I speak for a lot of people. When I, when I speak for myself here, I don't really like to use the word nuts and bolts. I think it's super cliche and overplayed. But kind of my focus is in legacy program research, crash retrieval, reverse engineering, stuff like that. So the whole psionics territory with Jake and stuff is still uncomfortable territory for me, but there's still so many lines of research and stuff I do that harken back to this. One example is Philip J. Corso.

I recently did a project on Corso. Corso stated that in 1960, he was recruited to the U.S. Army's foreign technology division. This isn't to be confused with the Air Force's Foreign Technology Division, two separate things under Lieutenant General Arthur Trudeau. Now, the foreign technology division, there's no records of it. It's similar to the Army's Interplanetary Phenomenon unit that probably only exists through institutional record. There's no record. But in Corso's testimony, which, by the way, we know that existed. Correct, yeah.

The Interplanetary Phenomena Unit, we know that that existed, which is crazy. We knew that a group named that existed between, what, 47-50 or something? Yeah, 47 to 50. And that was first confirmed in 1986 to UFO researcher William Steinman. In the majestic documents, there's an IPU report, Interplanetary Phenomen Unit Report, and an IPU field order. Two documents, still disputed. So those are disputed, but the Steinman thing, I believe Steinman contacted somebody in the federal government to gain more access. and they basically said the records had been deleted.

Yeah, and that it only existed an institutional member. That's right, but it existed. And so that is, that's just so fascinating. And, you know, I'll get back to Corso, but, you know, maybe we'll talk about the IPU documents later because that actually talks about, like, a crash retrieval that killed technicians at Sandia National Labs because of the danger of the crash. But so Corso worked for the Foreign Technology Division. This is not in dispute.

You can look through his official military records that said he was the chief of the Foreign Technology Division, not out of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. But the crux of his testimony is that under Arthur Trudeau in 1958 to 1962, we saw the golden age of Army R&D. And this is where materials were covered from the Roswell crash and possibly other crashes, maybe Aztec, maybe crash at Corona, planes of San Augustin, so forth, that the U.S. Army would partner with the U.S. industry to figure out how these technologies work and cede them back primarily to help the U.S. military and secondly help the American people if necessary. Well, we know we never saw the American people if necessary, but it wasn't just to see the technologies. It was also to improve upon existing technologies. You know, there's a lot of contention here because some of these technologies were passive night vision systems and guys like Colonel John B. Alexander who, you know, has made some lies about the majestic documents before dispute this and stuff like the transistor and integrated circuit. But I like to focus on other stuff because the golden age of Army R&D has a lot of really interesting research.

We can parallel it today and talk about later. But Koso also states during this time that the Foreign Technology Division was trying to use recovered technology to use human brain waves to guide ICBM missiles and ballistic missiles. Whoa. Really? Yeah. In today's world, staying informed can feel like navigating a maze of headlines, each with its own agenda. That's why I started using ground news, a tool designed for skeptics and truth seekers like many in this community. It's an app and website created by a former NASA engineer to tackle a problem we all face, how the way we consume, information can distort our understanding of the world. Ground News brings transparency to the news. It gathers coverage from over 50,000 sources worldwide, organizes stories by topic, and even breaks down

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That is so interesting. I didn't know he said that. That's fascinating. So Philip J. Corso wrote this book called The Day After Roswell, and he wrote it in 97. 97, but the day after Roswell has a bunch of fluff added by its co-writer. That's interesting. And he wasn't super happy.

happy about that, right? No, no, rumor has it. He only had 24 hours to edit it. And according to his son, he put his hand to his head and said, I can't believe this. That's so interesting because I was just talking to James Fox, who has an interview with Philip J. Corson. And we need to put this out. It's not public. No, it is. It is. Is it? Yeah, yeah. He said he's sitting on three hours and maybe part of it's, I think a little bit's public. And it's published through Greer weirdly enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so I think more can come out. And he was like, he basically James Fox said, gun to my head. I get shot if I'm wrong. I think Philip J. Corso was legit.

And so that's fascinating. He had a co-writer that might have kind of co-opted his process in some way because there is stuff in that book that's, I think, clearly false. Yeah. Like if you look at the tech tree around integrated circuits and semiconductors, I don't think you need alien intervention to describe. There's, I think, a Munich like patent on a transistor that goes back to the 30s. Yeah. But I do think we saw this stepwise leap in, you know, interesting technology around this time, especially in material science. And I do believe the basic Roswell story that like some sort of, you know, this memory metal.

And I believe Jesse Marcell, this Air Force flight surgeon that, you know, may have handled this, this, you know, memory metal material and that it probably did make its way to Wright Airfield at the time, which right herefield would have been the place you would have taken it because they were basically reverse engineering adversely. tech. They had like Migs, Russian Migs later on. Well, in 1943, they, they successfully reverse engineered a German Pulse Jet engine. So they were already successfully reverse engineering adversary retrieved technology. So it makes total sense that you'd take something there. And then basically, to complete the loop on Philip J. Corso, he says that that material

is taken to Roscoe Hill or Hill Encoder. Roscoe Hill Encoder is the first director of the CIA, makes the call that, Corso should be in charge of doling this out to basically civil side for civil side use cases, you know, to, you know, for commercial purposes. So like Bell Labs would be like the main place. Bell Labs, Sperry Rand, which went to Foncton, its divisions went to Northrop, Lockheed, Martin, Raytheon, and others. And so Philip Corso actually has a manuscript. It's called Dawn of a New Age. And so for my research on Corso, I read the two side by side and went through every single difference. remarkably different. For example, in day after Roswell, there's a passage about how

Corso intimidated a CIA director to off himself, which is absurd. And of course, you don't see that in the manuscript. Oh, they just, they sciopped him, man. And he had 24 hours to edit it. Yeah. And what else? What else? The first chapter of the book is like a detailed description of Roswell as if somebody was there. Corso never, never talks about that stuff. He doesn't know what happened at Roswell, he just takes the materials. He's seen. Another example is continued mentions to the majestic documents in Day After Roswell. They're only passively referenced once in dawn of a new age.

However, in Don of a New Age, Corso also states interesting stuff that he found after his time in the Foreign Technology Division. And maybe we'll get into that later because we can circle back to the psionic stuff with other really old research we can dig into. but, you know, of course, we would talk about stuff like a UFO working group, which there's reason to suggest maybe the Majestic 12 changed into that along the way. But what I wanted to say about the psionics as well is, and just kind of the mental phenomenon, I want to route this back to three key players, Dr. Eric A. Walker, Robert Sarbacher, Dr. Robert Sarrbocker, and Wilbert B. Smith. So this story takes place around 1950. Wilbert B. Smith was a Canadian radio engineer who had a huge interest in flying saucers after reading the flying saucer conspiracy by author Frank Scully.

Dr. Robert Sarbacher was the scientific advisor to the Research and Development Board spearheaded by Vannevar Bush. Around 1950, Wilbert Smith met with Robert Sarbacher to talk about flying saucers because the Canadian government wanted to use sort of magnetic, the Earth's magnetic field for proportionate. And he thought after reading the flying saucer conspiracy, there may be some sort of connection. And during this meeting, Robert Sarbacher said stuff like, well, in the, you know, 1950 there were meetings about flying saucers, uh, the U.S. government studies them and spearheaded by a group of Vannevar Bush. I can't tell you what they're from or what they're made of, but we know they're not made by humans. And so Wilbert Smith relayed that in a 1950 Department of Transportation Canada a memo that was then reduced from top secret to, I think, restricted access or confidential

in 1960 something and then completely unclassified later. But so Wilbert B. Smith took that and met with Sarbacher and these guys again to really get involved with UFOs. And Sarbacher basically said, like, I can connect you to the proper American authorities to engage with more UFO research if you can A, become cleared, and B. B. Smith, he would later on go to Spearhead Project Magnet, which was Canada's first UFO investigation group, followed up by Project Second Story. But when he finally met again with the Americans,

he learned other things such as, you know, Vannevar Bush Spearhead the Group. He knew that. He had a couple more things. But he also said that the U.S. authorities studying UFOs were obsessed with the mental phenomena that accompanied UFO research. So later on down the line, there was also a gentleman Dr. Eric A. Walker. This guy is super esteemed. He was Penn State University's president, one of the smartest people of the entire 20th century.

He was named in a conversation to William Steinman, UFO researcher, that one of the attendees of these meetings in the 1950s about UFO crash retrievals was Dr. Eric A. Walker. Dr. Eric A. Walker would stay silent for a long time. he was first contacted in, I think, 1984 by William Steinman. He returned William Steinman's letter really cryptically with a typed thing saying, like, go, go, go, leave me alone. But eventually he would kind of meet with Steinman, another researcher named Henry Azadahel. During these meetings, he would say some interesting stuff,

like he was present at the 1965 Kexberg UFO crash. And yes, that he did attend these meetings. But when William Steinman asked him about, or maybe it was Henry Azad de Hell, asked him about Majestic 12, He said he knew about Majestic 12. He'd known about them for 40 years. And he retorted with a question saying, what do you know about ESP,

extrasensory perception? Unless you know about it. I think he said the sixth sense specifically. Yeah, yeah, you would never be let in. Yes. Well, it was almost, not only you'd never be let in, like you can't even comprehend the reality of it.

It was, and I think it was a Don Quixote reference. Yeah, chasing after windmills. Which that's always stuck with me. It's like disclosure isn't this file that you can just give to this. somebody. It's like I can't even tell you because you're like you're literally like unable to cognize what I might be able to you know share. That's it's just so fascinating. And so and so

and then just to add corroboration to the first thing you're mentioning with the Sarbacher Wilbert Smith connection, not only did he run you know research and development you know under Vannevar Bush. He was head of Washington National Labs. He was this like atomic energy expert at the highest level in the U.S. And he was kind of scrubbed. This is Robert Sarbacher. He was kind of scrubbed from the internet as well. And he was known for having like an IQ of, you know, 200 plus or something.

It's just a brilliant guy. And so he's just this fascinating character who is also very close with Thomas Townsend Brown, who's this anti-gravity inventor at the time. You know better than anybody. Well, in 1956, when Thomas Townsend Brown does his experiment in Paris proving the Byfield Brown effect and that this works in a vacuum. and I think showing some sort of interesting coupling between electromagnetism and gravity, he comes back to the U.S.

and he's picked up in a black Cadillac by Robert Sarbacher, who he's very, very close to. And so there's a lot of, you know, connection there. And so you had a third, so this is, so Eric Walker, Robert Sarbacher, both corroboration for this sort of ESP psionic thing. What else? And then another thing, I'm sure many viewers will know Leonard Stringfield, who's one of the greatest crash retrieval researchers, probably the, greatest of all time. In the 70s and 80s, when nobody was doing this, he was researching

crash retrievals. He was mainly focusing on witness testimony. In his file, so in crash retrieval status reports 1 through 7, as well as when he passed on and Michael Schrat went to his archives in Cincinnati and read through the rest of his reports, he found numerous mentions of witnesses who had observed recovered UFOs and kind of cutaway diagrams accompanying the UFOs, and how in certain retrieval cases there would seem to be like a headband or headband transceiver worn by the operators of the craft that somehow would pilot set craft. And the same thing Corso said, right? In interviews with him, he said that the operators of specifically the Roswell craft

were part of the guidance system. So it doesn't seem too far-fetched when Jake talks about an asset, a psionic person, being able to use their mind to commandeer the flight controls of a craft. When we look at collecting data, one of the areas that we look at collecting data, one of the areas that we look to collect data is through a psionic asset, which is an individual who's trained in remote viewing, psychic abilities, telekinesis, that type of thing. I'm still unfamiliar with the physics of really how to wrap my head around this fully, but it's not out of the question to me. It's based in a lot of research spanning back to 1960s.

Yeah. No, I think it's the future of physics. And I think it's just, so like, when you have an anomaly in physics, if you can't turn it into math and you can't instrumentalize it into technology, I think it goes into this category called an anomaly and you just don't know what to do with it. And then the anomaly usually or often will get vindicated in a new theory. But until that anomaly gets vindicated in a new theory, you just have to say it's a weird anomaly and we don't know what to do with it. And so parapsychology, I think is, you know, Parasicology being the psionic sort of mind matter thing is proven experimentally. Right.

You can't turn it into math. We're in the Stone Age on it. And it's hard to turn into technology. Maybe inside, you know, government circles, you know, have turned this into technology, but we have it civil side. And so I think because of that, it's totally stigmatized. But if you look at other examples in the past, like black body radiation, you know, in the 1860s or the orbit of mercury, which was not described well in Newtonian paradigm,

You needed Einstein to describe it. Until you get the new theory, you just don't get vindication for the anomaly. And so that's my take on it. And it's not like physics outside of that branch has been productive at all in the last 70 years. Like it's actually been extremely unproductive. Well, who knows what sort of progress has been made that's been kind of kept under wraps? You know, we have SRI and SAC with the Stargate program. And you and I have personal experience with Randy, who, you know, as a Green Beret was at the Naval

Surface Warfare Center. crane went underground via contractor SAIC and was shown technology that purportedly responded to human consciousness. We get under there, door opens, we go through a security type checkpoint. I remember the first thing that stood out to me was that it was significantly more modern than everything up top. Yeah. And that was odd. Now, anybody who's saying that the Navy hasn't studied this stuff is not fully knowledgeable on the subject. Going back to 2011 and 2012, the Navy, the O&R specifically, of Naval Research was publishing studies on a six sense within humans. So the Navy, S-A-I-C, SRI, Stargate, all of these guys are pretty interested. I mean, we have US Army inscom

General Albert Stubblebine who wanted to basically cognitively enhance soldiers. The movie, the men who stare at goats is made after Stubblebine. Yeah, after Stubblebine, Lynn B. Cannon, the whole Stargate program, which ran from 1972 to 95, and systematically, you know, employed these psychic spies, which would gather intel, which was hugely consequential for the United States. I just interviewed actually Joseph McMonigal who figured out this novel Russian submarine, I think it's 78 or 79. And that was extremely critical for the U.S. during the Cold War. And he was thanked at like the highest level. I think Robert Baker actually was like sort of very against his intel to begin with. And then he realized that it was sort of vindicated after.

After McMonigle sort of figured this out, he won the Legion of Merit due to, you know, the very productive activity he engaged in. So I do think the Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence organization in the U.S. It goes back to the 189s, way pre-Prenational Security Act and CIA and NSA later, like pre all of that. So I agree. And for the audience, because they're probably drinking from a fire hose of facts right now. Randy Anderson is this amazing green beret who you introduced me to who is a, you know, really just a, I think a war hero. I think both you and I have heard offline of stories around his deployments to various countries that he wants to lay low on because it's not the green beret way.

You know, he doesn't want to brag about anything. It's not the seal way. But, you know, there's a number of people in his graduating class who've died. He's gone through a lot. And yeah, he was stationed at, he was an 18 Bravo weapon sergeant, you know, an expert on various weapons systems and he was taken underground to this deep underground military base, which we know exists, like across the country. That's not a question.

Yeah. That's not a question. And that's a fascinating topic to get into as well. And once you talk about Randy, we can absolutely get into dums. Well, well, I just want to hear you because, you know, there's so, I got a lot of flack for that video. And I, I've, I've spoken. to his colleagues. I've spoken to, you know, two of his Green Beret buddies now. Yeah. I have their

DD-214s. Like, you know, I know a little bit about them and their background. And like, I know that Randy is not lying. And there are people out there on the internet questioning his service, which is insane. And honestly shameful. Yeah. You know, if there's anything substantive, you have to say there or on the testimony, fine. Because he also has pictures of him at Crane. It's absurd. At the year, right when he saw the technology. It's a war hero. He just don't, don't, you know, that's insane. And then, yeah, there are questions he has about his experience, you know, the off-world

technologies division like, like he doesn't know what that was that human technology, was that, was that, you know, non-human intelligence, you know, tech. After that, we moved on down another hallway and got into an area that had a marking on the wall and said off-world technology. Said off-world technology. That, yeah, that was where the weird shit started. So, yeah, we go into the room and the one room, these significantly higher level of technology, like the lighting even looked. You know, everything was just, it was more, everything was, it was just a different vibe, man.

I don't know how else to describe it. Like I said, the lighting was different. The walls had, like maybe I would assume some type of Faraday material. Everything was just a higher level of detail. The first object was a metallic basketball-sized sphere. And it was above a podium. And it was, look like it was just levitating above the podium. Levitating above the podium.

What makes you think that that was non-human? Well, A, I don't think it's a valid criticism. as well to say that because there was some sort of sign that labeled off world technologies division that that's completely nonsensical. Yeah. A history. I've seen that criticism leveraged around. And how do you like that's a that's a that's quite a baseless claim to make that a, that a division would not be named. Sure, it may seem a bit strange, but we're talking about UFO legacy programs and deep underground military bases that span the continental United States. So that's not an accurate criticism to me. But the technologies Randy saw that I want to focus specifically on the

sphere that he said reacted to human consciousness, there is a mutual friend of ours that has observed that as well. Yes. And that is Jordan of Skywatchers, if we can talk about that. Yeah. When he was involved in the gate program as a late teen, intelligence or military brass and suits and, you know, eggheads brought in a case, opened it up, and there was the same exact sphere. That story continues to pop up.

It's either a sphere or a piece of metal and they want to see. I just interviewed somebody yesterday, and I can talk about this because it's going to come out. This guy Shane Freaks, old vet symposium on Twitter, and he talks about being shown a sphere. And so it's the same thing, shown a sphere and seeing how the person would react and if they have some sort of sionic connection to it. And it's kind of the same thing as the Jake Barber story, where he locks on mentally to, in this case, the Acon Craft. But there is a mental connection. And so that that is, and then there's a say I see, I believe is on record studying, quote unquote, psychotronic technology.

It was like a long history. They coined their own terms for like telekinesis and psychokinesis when they kind of bought up the research from SRI. So SAC took it and ran with it. And they were operating Stargate, the psychic spy program in Palo Alto, like at the end of its existence. So yeah, there's a lot of history there that just corroborates where if you don't know the history, you're going to hear this green beret saying, I saw a sphere levitating in front

of a podium and I'm mentally locked onto it. And you're going to be like, that's fucking crazy. But you need to update your priors and actually dive deep into the history of this stuff, which I mean, you're like the tip of the spear on. But I often feel like I'm out on an island where you have very few people to talk to who like get, who don't realize that this stuff actually isn't crazy. If you're engaging in solid Bayesian reasoning, maybe you have to think probabilistically and it's not, you know, 100% this is definitely real or whatever. But like, your base case is that it actually is real. because there's a lot of evidence around it. Yeah, and like the other testimonies we mentioned too

are incredibly interesting. The story with Jordan, he and I spoke about that long before any research with Randy was ever made public. So initially when I made contact with Randy, I went around kind of looking for any other story that may involve some sort of sphere, some sort of basketball-sized metal

that might interact with people. And this also like almost harkens back even to how he opened up with the story of Jonathan Waygan when he got in close proximity. proximity to the crash craft he saw, whether it was the beans or the craft itself, he felt an overwhelming sense of calmness and communication in his head. And we hear that from Jake Barber as well with the eight gun. You hear it in pretty much every alien abduction account is this sort of mental telepathic connection. And I do find it interesting. Certain people are down for like breaking

exotic physics in the form of exotic flight principles and like metamaterials. But for whatever reason. So that like breaks our reality there, but they're not down for the mental thing. And it's like, why is that a bridge too far? If you've crossed this bridge, this bridge is crazy. So you have to open up, you know, all possibilities at that point. And again, think probabilistically. So maybe that that second bridge is slightly lower probability than the first bridge. But I think people don't realize just how limited their thinking is around a lot of this stuff. Yeah. It's like what we talked about. Like my research mainly focuses on legacy programs, but I can't discount the, The research done at Stargate, the psionic stuff.

I can't leave that out of the equation. I still need to study it always when it arises. Of course. Yeah. And sometimes those bleed over into the realms I study as well. Because, you know, we were talking about stubblebine who was interested in psychic spies. And on the other hand, stubblebine also has really interesting research into like UFO crash retrieval and legacy reverse engineering programs. So on one hand, he's kind of engaging with the more psychic aspect of the phenomenon.

And on the other hand, he's dealing with a really tangible program level stuff. I mean, Stubblebine created the U.S. Army INS.com, intelligence and security commands, special operations unit, the intelligence support activity. And I think 2002, right around the time the CIA OGA was created, the intelligence support activity, which is a really, really like clandestine, secretive combat group, kind of like the CIA soldiers almost, was brought over to J-Soc, the Joint Special Operations Command. And if we adhere to some excellent reporting by Chris Sharp and others, the CIA OGA and its creation in 2002 and J-Soc are utilized to perform crash retrievals and so forth. Yeah, yeah.

There's a J-Soc continues to come up, you know, as like they sort of go in, you know, and what's the connection between Delta Force and J-Soc? Delta Force is a unit in J-S. I think it's the 24th STS out of the Air Force, Seal Team 6 out of the Navy, Delta out of Army, and ISA, out of army as well. There might be another unit or two. I don't want to butcher that, but those are some of the primary units. And my buddy, Matt Pines, made the connection that Lou Elizondo is actually part of this group called Greyfox, which is, you know, deep military intelligence, but specifically, it's like going into extremely sensitive sites, you know, for J-Soc. Yeah. And so, you know, he might know a thing or two about

UFOs from that, not just the A-SAP, A-TIP, you know, whatever that experience was around 2007, in 2012. Absolutely. And another interesting thing about Stubblebine, what we're talking about him, in the memoir, Donovan New Age by Philip J. Corso, Corso stated he learned that in 1986, there was a group created called the UFO Working Group, which was created to study and kind of manipulate UFOs, reverse engineering,

and so forth. And this was funded by the leader of U.S. Army Innscom, which is, of course, Albert Stubblebine. And to top things off to make it even more interesting, so that's 1986. In 1984, Stubblebine left the U.S. Army. He then went on to serve as like a chairman or a board member of BDM, which was a defense contractor bought up by TRW, which was then bought up by Northrop Grumman.

But in 1985, Albert Stubblebine and BDM at their corporate headquarters in McLean, Virginia, created what they called the advanced theoretical working group. Yes. Which was a large kind of, which was a large event classified with DOE controls to study UFO reverse engineering and crash retrieval. And we have the famous notes, by Oak Shannon, which resulted from that. Oki Shannon, who was a Los Alamos project manager, very high up.

You had, I believe, like Ferris Williams, Kenneth's shoulders. John B. Alexander as well. John B. Alexander, Hal put off. Guys like that, was Eric Davis part of this? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised. He's always popping up in the same circle. Well, it's clearly this sort of working group to figure out like the physics around UFOs. And I think, according to Oki Shannon, there were some even spookier people who never speak

and they just sit in the room and they'd sort of gather intelligence on this stuff. And then when Greer started his kind of whistleblowing efforts where he started to attract, this is Stephen Greer, Dr. Stephen Greer, started to attract all these people coming out of the government and speaking to him.

And he starts to promote this sort of CE5, like, you know, getting into contact with the UFOs, attracting them, whatever. Stubblebine and John Alexander show up around him. And I believe Stubblebine offers him a big sum of money to like join legacy efforts or like join the program. something? What's the story there? So I think this, I think because of Greer's own ego and like I have

my feelings about Greer, both pros and cons, he really, he likes to frame this as, oh, Stubblebine offered me $2 billion to shut up and talk about UFOs. But I think according to documents and emails on the DPI archive, that $2 billion, which still is an egregious sum of money, was to purchase Stephen Greer's institution, CETI and integrated into Stubblebine's work. So it wasn't just, to buy off Stephen Greer. It was to basically purchase his whole institution, and this was in 1992. That's crazy. So what do you think was so valuable about what Stephen Greer was doing in 1992 that would, I mean, maybe that was a fake offer or like? I don't know if that's real, but the real meat of the Greer saga and the Greer information starts to pick up around 97.

It's really hard to track down what Greer was doing in pre-1997. He was a doctor? Yeah, he was a practicing trauma doctor, I think it in the ER. I don't really know how he got interested in the subject, but he does say at the age of 18, and he said this in his 2004 September event, that he was contacted by like a cosmic intelligence and told to basically save the world. He's brought a lot of exposure to the UFO world, and he should be really vindicated and he's worked his ass off. But yeah, it can be weird vibes, I think, at times.

I think there was a really big shift in Greer. So, you know, he talks about his archive release, the DPI Archives, Disclosure Project Initiative Archives. He says it would take somebody two to four years to go through it. That's nonsense. I've gone through the whole thing like eight times. But so in 1997, I don't know what Greer was doing before that. Yeah.

But in 1997, UFO researcher Bill Hamilton, William Hamilton, the third, who wrote the book Cosmic Top Secret I talked about in relation. from Northrop Grumman. He had been in contact with Greer. And this UFO researcher, who I think is one of the most underappreciated people in the entire realm, he introduced Greer to various witnesses that would feature on the 2001 Disclosure Project National Press Club event where various government and private sector whistleblowers would speak.

Some of these included some redacted names who I've come to learn about those people. They're not public. And then Mark McCandlish and Brad Sorensen. Oh, yeah. The two primary witnesses, or Brad Sorensen being the primary witness of the 1988 Norton Air Force show, where an alien reproduction vehicle was shown off. And Mark McCandlish, the person who created the line art drawings and so forth. And by the way, the term alien reproduction vehicle that most people associate with Greer was coined by Sorensen himself and relayed in Hamilton's 1992 book, Cosmic Top Secret. He got this wrong.

He said alien replicated vehicle, but even so. And around the same time, I talked about this around Northrop as well. Greer met a person named A.H. He's since spilled the name in his archive. I just won't repeat it. We'll call it A.H. But A.H was, I guess, a former Boeing technician. And we can see from Hamilton and A.H. Most of the grounds that Greer operates on today, including naming sites where programs operated, where it's Air Force Base, not really Wright-Patterson, China Lake, Dougway Proving Grounds, all of these sites. And you can see direct quotes from A.H. and Hamilton that have made their way into Greer's research. He still is used today. I mean, Greer's a big proprietor proprietor that Dougway proving grounds out in Utah saw a lot of UFO programs shipped over from Area 51. And he always quotes that 35 to 40 percent of programs at Area 51 were moved to Dougway in Utah.

Well, if you look at AH's testimony in the year 2000 recorded, he says the exact same thing. So Greer has really built upon, like most of us, like all of us, he stood on the shoulders of giants and important people before him. But there seemed to be a real shift when he gained that sort of popularity where Greer would really, really focus on the CE5 stuff, which can really rub people the wrong way. And I think that's really mostly due to kind of the monetary incentive around it. Like he's doing CE5 cruises. And what is CE5 sort of summoning? It's psionic. Yeah, scionic stuff.

But I think a little more spiritual, like more focus on love and light. Yeah. And Greer's also been busted for posting photos of like cactuses and stuff and saying their entities. Yeah. It's this mixed bag. And it's, it's somewhat unfortunate. But you, I mean, you have to express your sort of gratitude to him.

But then it's also like sometimes you wish it came in better form. Yeah. You know. Because I've never spoken to Greer. I've never been in contact with him. I don't plan to. But I've been badmouthed by him. I know that.

What did he say about you? So when Greer releases DPI Archive, and I went through that and looked at all the accompanying files, because with each witness ID that's redacted, a lot of the time there's emails, I would look through these and I would say, like, why is, why does Greer get to talk to these people and nobody else does? So I would spend weeks tracking people down and finding out who they were and contacting them. There's been multiple that I have, but at the tail end of 2024, there was a recent entry on the archive. This was a brand new person. This was the Army Public Affairs person that I

talked about recently. I contacted this person. We struck up a relationship. This guy's an amazing person. But right when we started talking, he was suspicious of my motives, of course, because I reach out and I just said, hi, I found your name this way, this way, this way, because whenever I reach out to somebody from the archive, I say, hey, this is where the breach of security happened. This is how I found your name. It will not be shared. I'm not interested in contacting anybody else. So this guy and I started talking. And we hung up. up on the phone one day and he called me back 10 minutes later. He said, I need to, like, I need to know what you're doing. I said, excuse me. He said, I just talked, I just talked to Greer and he said

you're an intelligence, like, you're an intelligence asset. I said, what? So apparently this guy, when we hung up off the phone, he then contacted Greer because he was still in contact with Greer. And he gave Greer my full name, which I, I would prefer if he didn't have, wouldn't have done that, but that's okay. And then Greer said I was an intelligence asset. So that's, that's my one And then he said you were not an intelligence. He cleared it up. Or he said you were an intelligence. No, Greer said I was an intelligence.

What is he basing that off? Nothing. He's just fucking saying that you're an intelligent. Yeah. I've never talked to the guy. Yeah. And for the record, on record, you'll say you don't have a security clearance. No, I don't have a security clearance.

I've never been in the military. I've never been in intelligence. Yeah. I graduated with a degree in engineering and I moved to... What do you... Do you have like a day job or is YouTube your full time thing? Yeah. Like mechanical engineering, service engineering. It's very boring.

I'd like to move to this more full-time. For what, can you say? Medical devices, formerly renewable energy, like wind turbines and such. Okay, okay. Normal dude. Yeah, normal dude. But that's been my word. But he's going to have a massive channel and do this full-time.

I hope so. I mean, there's a lot of work in this subject that I think needs to be revisited. Because as much as I hate to say it, and I'm sure you realize it as well, there has been elements of circular reporting in this subject. Tons. And I'm sure, like, I've been guilty of it at times. Like, I don't, I don't think you can thoroughly investigate all of this stuff and get,

it's all so crazy and weird. You're going to get a little bit wrong along the way. And so, like, it's going to be this dialectical process where you have to wade through the bullshit and just have open conversations. And I think as long as people think you're a good faith actor and you're, like, earnestly showing your thought process to everybody and you're, like, getting closer to an approximation of truth, that's all you can do. Yeah.

And so, and then just saying, like, admitting if you're wrong and like if somebody comes at you with something substantive, just like accepting that and incorporating it into your worldview. And I think the other tricky thing is like people can say when you cover this topic that you are shilling a thing. And you can be a, or grifting, which is absurd. Like I've, I do have like a company that like encapsulates my show. I've never taken money out of the company.

Like, I've never, like, made, I mean, money has come in through, like, sponsors and that sort of thing, because I do want this to be sustainable. I have costs. And, like, I'm down to make money on it long term. But, like, what I was doing before was definitely more of a clear path to making, like, a lot of money than this. If anything, I've lost a lot of money over the last couple of years. It's kind of funny. Like, but, yeah, I don't think you can do anything else other than, like, earnestly kind of move. forward and just be humble and cool and like people sense that and yeah i really from from what i try

and do i see a big gap in modern day in in terms of investigating primarily legacy programs and witness testimony because historically like wherever you look uh wherever you look in this subject greer kind of has his pause in post like 1995 because even he is entwined and stuff like the wilson davis memo going back that far and so forth um and and guys like uh really great research researchers today like Richard Dolan, he still focuses more on like sightings and kind of flaps and encounters and so forth. And what he does, he's almost the best at. Totally. Well, that's the beautiful thing about this subject is I don't view it as zero sum at all. Like, I actually think you're like best in the world now and you will be like so much better than that. How old are you?

You're like 28? You're 28. Yeah. So it's like you're like best in the world now like tracking granular like legacy activity stuff. I think I'm really good on the theory side. Absolutely. Like, you know, like, consilience, interdomain conciliance between, like, science and, like, theory and that sort of thing. And that's what I love.

And then, you know, we have a buddy Chris Ramsey who has his YouTube channel, who, like, to me, I think he's going to have, like, the biggest YouTube channel on this just because he's so, his, like, the thoughtfulness that he puts into, like, production and storytelling is just next level. And his skill set there is so good that he's going to, open this topic up to like a whole new massive you know a swath of people and I and I think we're all like pretty like I don't know we all have egos but they're we're pretty like team players like

yeah and so I love I love that I think that's really cool and it's going to be like a new era of this stuff where we can just like work together and like find the truth yeah it's it's really refreshing because any it's really refreshing to work together because I'm sure as like everybody who's done some research in the subject knows like any sort of disclosure is not really going to come willingly, especially when it comes to UFO legacy program operations. So kind of working together and tackling cases and stuff like that is, is really brilliant to do. And Chris is a great guy. You introduced me to him at the hearings. And, you know, the second he and I met, he and I were talking about Bob Lazar because he did the interview with Luigi from Project Gravatar.

Yep. He spoke very highly of him. And Luigi's super cool. I've talked to him. He's awesome. So this is this new documentary about Bob Lazar. Bob Lazar is obviously. If you've made it this far in the interview, you definitely know Bob Lazar is. But he is, you know, famous for, having claimed to have reverse engineered UFOs at Area 51 S4. And, you know, one of Rogan's biggest episodes, this wild controversy, some holes in his background. But like, spoken to Luigi and Chris, and they've actually really helped me update my take on Bob Lazar to the point where I think he worked at Area 51 for sure. Area 51 or S4. I think he for sure worked at Area 51, probably worked at S4.

And then I'm not sure that what he was shown, wasn't shown to him deliberately, and he wasn't given high-level frameworks as sort of passage material and recruitment for legacy, which doesn't make covering his story invalid at all. It makes it almost more interesting. But to me, it has to be covered through this like meta lens, if that makes any sense. through this skepticism, but also like there's probably some real stuff. Yeah, I mean, I've historically stayed away from Bob because I'm so biased towards wanting to believe him. Yeah. You know, growing up, I would always hear about his testimony. I was the first to buy Area 51 or UFOs and Flying Saucers from Jeremy Corbell and his book, Dreamland.

Yep. The more I study other things, the more interest I find specifically not Bob Lazar, reverse engineering, the sports model propulsion systems or reading about the files and bodies and so forth, but specifically around the facility S4, which I have good reason to believe that S4 is just southwest of Pupus Mountain Range, right by Pupus Lake is a real place. And what's your good reason to believe that? So there's a couple public testimonies around it. There's that I don't really want to focus on, but like Dan Barish, um, uh, Edward, uh, Edgar Foucher who claimed that S4 ran the Defense Advanced Research Center, the DARS, which was found in, um, a, uh,

ARPA document in the 70s to be proposed to exist, which was an underground facility. Never really proven to exist. But I've talked to one person who has been to S4, and another person who said they won't comment on if it exists. The person who had been to S4 said he didn't see anything like crazy or extraterrestrial. He was just went in the facility. But he did say some things that are similar to what Bob Lazar and others would say, meaning like colored pathways to show where you can walk and see. Yeah, I think we should all, wait for Luigi's documentary Project Gravatar because he's told me things offline that out of respect for him I'm not going to share but that give me conviction that he did work at S4 around

stuff that's gotten corrupt will get corroborated in the documentary so it's pretty cool um so yeah i'm i'm saying Chris Chris has as well and Chris is coming at this whole thing from an angle of like he's a famous magician before this debunking other magicians and so he comes at this whole thing through a more skeptical storytelling lens. And he thinks that there's definitely something, something to the Lizarre story and that he worked at S4. Yeah, I mean, if that story is true, then that's one example of a deep underground military base with a hanger built into the side of a mountain, which is really interesting.

Yep. Because deep underground military bases, a lot of people associate those with conspiracies for, like, human trafficking or stuff like that. But those are a very real concept. There's like a very rich, rich history of, of deep underground military bases that started in the 1950s and 1960s out of Air Force Project RAND, which eventually became the RAND Corporation, which is a federally funded research and development center that is likely up to their eyeballs and UFO legacy programs.

But why do you think there's so many things that like when you talk, I'm like, we need to query this and this. And that's like, why is RAND? So one of the things that I talk about all the time that I think is really overlooked in legacy operations is everybody likes to talk. about the government intelligence or military and contractors. You know, Northrop, Lockheed, Battelle. The piece that's missing, the thing between them,

are the federally funded research and development centers and the university-affiliated research centers. These are semi-private, not-for-profit institutions that are government-owned. Examples of FFRDCs would be places like the Miter Corporation, the Rand Corporation, Sandia National Labs, Lawrence Livermore. There's one at Penn State where Eric Walker.

That's a university-affiliated research center. And those are kind of another side of the same coin. And we can talk about what I think, based on some good intelligence, what I think these do. University-affiliated research centers are like the MIT Soldier Nanotechnology's Lab. Super Soldier Program. Yeah. The University of Southern California, a creative research institute. And that's another really interesting thing where I think Bob Lussar might have done something in and around the MIT.

You could have. Well, like, whenever he comes up with Rogan, Rogan always says, oh, I'll tell you something offline where, like, it would make the MIT records being deleted makes sense. And then he can never say it online. Could be a U-Rk. That would be my guess, that there's probably some interesting research, you know, that he was maybe involved in that, like, because that's from way back in the day,

at MIT was, yeah, Carl Compton, who was president of MIT, who was rumored to be shown the craft at right airfield with this sort of Anderson trust these like you know CIA guys and and actually like be very involved in legacy UFO efforts and so yeah it's fascinating and now we have this super soldier program yeah and so and so with those fFRDCs and uarks um what i think based on good intelligence is that the u.s military and intelligence sources split between the army navy and air force will have a program whether that be technology exploitation materials research, reverse engineering, or flying of alien reproduction vehicles,

and direct connections will be made with the U-Arcs or FFRDCs. These will serve as the project manager performing subject matter expertise and research and development, and that will bridge the gap to the contractors, the defense corporations, because most, as far as I'm aware, most of the contractor personnel will not necessarily know what they're working on. A famous example is the,

infographic show whistleblower where he talks about a guy at Texas instruments getting a piece of metal and not knowing what he's working on. It's the middle management at these companies at the contractors that generally know what they're working on, like the security directors and so forth, but the FFRDCs and UARCs allows kind of one step removal between the, the military and intelligence and the contractor. Well, but with MITR Corporation and Rand, you would think of them as having kind of the top of the pyramid view on the technology. Like, I believe the president of RAND Corporation for many years was a guy named Michael Rich, who's Ben Rich. Ben Rich was the, you know, president of Skunk Works that says we have, you know, the power to travel the stars to take E.T home and made all sorts of interesting comments like at the end of his group.

We also called UFO's unfunded opportunities said that we have UFOs and they have UFOs, you know, so like humans do. And so, and ETs do. said there was an international corporate board controlling a lot of the UFOs and maybe we needed to take it back into the hands of the U.S. or so said all sorts of interesting stuff. His son was the president of RAND Corporation for decades. So I find that somewhat interesting as well. And Thomas Townsend Brown, he's doing his anti-gravity experiments.

The RAND Corporation shows up, sees the experiments. They have this meeting. Something changes after the meeting. Townsend Brown, his experiments just fail. something sort of, you know, nominally like they fail, even though clearly they, they hadn't failed. Right. And then to me, it's clear there's some covert IP transfer that occurs where his anti-gravity technology gets transferred to Northrop Grumman via his investor, who's a guy named Floyd O'Dlum, who has a majority stake in Northrop. Yeah.

And so there's, but there's something around the Rand Corporation there, too. Absolutely. Rand, Miter, Sandia, you know, Sandia and Lawrence Livermore were accused by, some people like Edgar Foucher of actually reverse engineering propulsion for craft that would lead to like triangular ARV. But you also have to look at the time when a lot of these were made, specifically Miter and the Aerospace Corporation. They were founded in 1959 and 1960, the exact time of the golden age of Army R&D under Corsoe, who said that there were institutions also created to study extraterrestrial technology. And if you look at what's weird and what parallels to modern day with the UARCs and FFRDCs, if you look at U.S. Army research and development, this is going to sound so boring to so many people. But if you look at U.S. Army primers for research and development from the 1950s and 1960s, like read through all of their proposals. You'll see under Trudeau, when he was the chief of research and development for the Army, he proposed that the Army work for kind of technology transfer and technology study with URIs, university research institutes.

And IRILs, I think it is, like independent research or something independent research laboratories similar, which are similar concepts to the UARCs and FFRDCs made in the 90s. So we see these insane parallels to modern day. And of course, Mider was made out of Project Sage, which was a Lincoln Labs giant project to like make giant radar systems to study ballistic missiles and so forth. Well, it's like if you were doing any secret science, if we live in the world where any science, is classified, which, come on. Yeah, of course we, they're, and now, like, it's all coming out.

You have people like, you know, Mark Andresen, Ben Horowitz, go to the White House. They say, well, classify math and the AI, just like we classified physics. And, like, you know, Eric Weinstein, my former colleague is, you know, constantly kind of opining on, like, this idea of the secret science branch. It's, if you have to be stupid to not think that some science isn't classified. If we live in the world where it is classified, that stuff is going on. in the places where we uphold the most secrecy, which is these DOE labs. Yeah.

And so, like, I don't think it's like conspiratorial. It's like, obviously, if you're doing a high energy, really intense physics, you're probably also understanding ontological truths that the rest of the public don't understand. That's often the case. Like, you start to understand things about reality due to some of these experimental effects where you're breaking the bounds of, you know, our reality in some sense. you know, through these high-energy experiments. Like, it makes sense that UFOs show up around nuclear weapons.

Absolutely. It's high-energy output. And if we live in any sort of, like, time-bound, you know, 3D-bound, like, if there's anything outside of what we perceive, you would be stress testing that every time you set a nuke off. You just would. Yeah. So it's like not that crazy.

And, yeah, I'm with you there. And I just think it's so interesting to try and investigate. how players and the government and military package these concepts and these high-energy experiments to classify them and keep them out of public view, especially when it involves kind of extraterrestrials or non-human intelligence. And for the, for the Aero disenjoyers out there, as recently as 2004, the new Aero director, John Kuzlowski, said that Arrow is working with both U-Warks and FFRDCs. So that's something to I'm on to. Yeah, he said that to Susan goes sitting right behind him to Gillibrand at the 2024 Arrow hearing.

Whoa. And then, of course, when Sean Kirkpatrick left Arrow, he ran off to Oak Ridge, which go look at the FFRDCs connections there. Totally. Yeah. Doing a lot of interesting material science there. It's not just a nuclear lab. Like, they're doing a lot of frontier science at Oak Ridge.

Many FFRDCs are owned by Battelle Memorial Labs or Triad National Security LLC, which one of those three is Betel. Betel's really interesting. I mean, if there's any group out there that is studying actual biologics, it's probably Batel. They run some sort of biological materials lab

out of Fort Dietrich. And also a lot of really interesting classified work out at Dougway Proving Grounds. It's fascinating. Yeah, and that was always, I believe it was it the HR Cross, HC Cross, you know what I'm talking about? This memo.

Yeah, Project Stork from Betel, where it's not. now clear and retrospected. I think this is a lot due to Richard Dolan's great research, that, like, you had this cleaving off of the vital study of UFOs. The public-facing stuff was relegated to Project Blue Book in the Air Force. And then all the private stuff was managed by Battel Memorial Institute, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence, and was classified under the Atomic Energy Commission, which occurred later in 54, but there was a precursor called the McMahon Secrecy Act. And so it would totally make sense.

that Patel would have a whole lot to do with this. I believe Robert Sarbacher also told Whitley Streber. So Sarbocker, I just interviewed Whitley Streber. He talked to Sarbocker? He talked to Starbacher. Sarbacher took an interest in Streber. And when he published Communion? When he published Communion. I'll tell you a fairly weird story here. Stanton gave me Sarbaner's number. And then he called me back and he said, Sarbocker is waiting for you to call him. He's very eager to talk to you. So I call Sarabrock. Sarabacher proceeds to tell me all kinds of detail about the materials that he was working on at the Patel Memorial Institute about how when electron microscopes became operative, they understood that there was a molecular grid, a designed grid inside this very thin material,

and that was what made it so strong. And I think that's probably been extrapolated out into our military technology in many different ways. And so you're talking about an extremely advanced scientist taking an interest in a horror novelist's abduction account. And so Sarbacher's working at the highest levels of American military, and he takes an interest in Whitley Streber, reaches out, wants to speak to him. And Streber says they're about to meet up and Sarbacher dies.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, and so it's fascinating. And then again, Sarbacher's just scrubbed from the internet. But what Sarbacher, I think, told Scriber on the phone is that you had all this interesting material that Patel Memorial Institute was managing back in the day that Sarbacher was somewhat involved with. So just another piece of corroboration for this. And there's research to suggest that Patel also studied the, like, really lightweight metals out of the 1947 Roswell crash. In 1949, alongside Project Stork, they started publishing information on like, shape metal alloys,

Night and all. There was like a, there was like a nickel alloy. Yeah, titanium nickel alloys. I used to think that Battelle was kind of phased out of operations. I'm not quite sure why I thought this,

but recently I've taken a huge interest in Battell being like one of the primary contractors out at Dougway Proving Grounds, which I think has a massive underground facility. I mean, I've talked to a witness who didn't go on the 2023 career NPC, but I've talked to him and I've interviewed him.

And he, while working as a contractor for the Martin Company at Dugway at the West Desert Test Wing in the Avery section stumbled upon a building where he saw a craft hovering in the air being tested on. So fascinating. Yeah. And then Battelle runs, Patel has a bunch of old contracts for making like enclosed laboratories at Dougway and stuff. And that, that is really fascinating.

Is there a Mormon connection with Dougway because it's in Utah? And I think of like the CIA as being fed into by a lot, just a lot of Mormon. And the Mormons were surrounding sort of, you know, Howard Hughes. Well, Greer likes to say so, right? But I don't know. I haven't been able to make that connection. But I was able to make a Dougway Proving Ground connection to one of your recent videos with James Fox. Oh, tell me.

So I was rewatching your James Fox interview, and he talks about the 1971 Hallamon, or the Holloman Air Force-based footage that he talked to filmmaker Alan Sandler, who said he saw the footage and saw Beans and the footage. Yeah, we showed that conversation between him and Sam. Yeah. What did you see on the film? So in 1971, Sandler and another filmmaker Robert, like, Emenager or something like that, I think his name was. Yeah, they were approached by two U.S. military officials to make a documentary and they could include the Holloman Air Force Base footage.

Yeah. One of these individuals was an Army or Air Force. I can't remember a colonel named Weinbrenner. And Weinbrenner was actually part of the Foreign Technology Division out of Wright Pat for a while. Whoa. So that occurred in the 80s or the late 70s. And so time goes on, Weinbrenner would be asked all the time about UFOs because Robert Emineger would go back and ask him, like, what did you think?

And, you know, there's a story of a conversation where he and Weinbrenner are speaking and Weinbrenner saying like, oh, UFOs don't exist, blah, blah, blah, while taking a book off a shelf and giving him a book about UFOs. But on his deathbed, there's a lot of research proposed by like Grant Cameron and Anthony Brigalia and so forth about Weinbrenner on his deathbed saying that they house dead. extraterrestrials at a facility out in Utah, which of course is Dougway Proving Grounds. Ooh, it's really crazy. I made that connection last night. It was fun to, fun to see, the Sandler to Weinbrenner to Dougway. Sammy, are you in touch with any UFO whistleblowers,

not whistleblowers yet? People on the inside who have firsthand witnessed crafts. Absolutely. Yeah. And anybody who has witnessed craft in a hangar in a classified facility in the U.S., not just seeing a thing flying in the air. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, but will they talk publicly, no? And will they discuss the full extent? Why won't they talk publicly? I do think it's important context for the audience. Like, we're going to get comments.

Trust me, bro, or whatever. So, no, no, yeah, I'm not saying. I'm not saying that to, like, push, like, a narrative or say, like, run with this. Like, I know people have seen this. Not a trust me, bro thing. But, yeah, of course, I've talked to people I take very seriously, like good friends that I've made who have said this. And these people are former military or intelligence. They're not contractors.

I haven't heard a peep from a contractor. I think that's a whole other story because there's like government NDAs and contractor NDAs. And the penalties for violating those are severe. But these military people are bound by NDAs, sometimes, which usually really long NDAs, like decades long or lifelong agreements. And they do not want to be the person to violate. Any who've seen bodies?

One of them has talked about a place in which bodies are stored. We'll say that because that might lead to, you know, people being able to identify that. Yeah, yeah. Anything about the bodies and what they look like? No, nothing about the bodies because I think that that is privy to a lot of their NDAs and so forth. So they can't talk about that. How do you think this stuff gets so well hidden? Like, so, okay, I think there are some really important foundations.

questions that the Jake Barber's story brings up, which is if you can summon these things on command, then you probably have a thousand plus. And if you have a thousand plus, then you'd expect more leakage. You'd expect more like, I saw the thing in the hangar and I wasn't supposed to. I took a photo and it's out. You hear rumors on the other side of this that we have 10 to 15 and they're like, you know, only select things and surround atomic sites or whatever. Yeah.

How many do we have? 10 to 15 and 1,000 plus. That's a wide range. And so clearly we can't fully attract these things that will would be my guess, because I think if we had a thousand plus, these things would have leaked. So do you have kind of like a mental model on that? That's a good question, because if we look at Ryan S. Woods, fantastic, but magic eyes only, we can find over 100 cases of UFO crash retrieval. And even if only 20% of those are true, that's still, you know, above 20. There's also claims by Greer and others that at some of these black sites, one to two craft are brought down a year.

So I have no conceivable notion of how many craft have been brought down or why they're brought down. You know, you got guys like Philip J. Corso who talk about the initial Roswell crash being due to kind of conflicting radio signatures, messing with craft navigation. You have testimonies like the 1953 Kingman, Arizona crash where possibly nuclear testing from Operation Upshot Not Hole mess with craft. And then you have Barber's testimony that psionic abilities can forcefully land craft or bring them down. or they have EM weapons to target the craft and bring them down. And then there's also stories about the 1983 Strategic Defense Initiative instituted by Ronald Reagan, which was to act against Soviet ICDMs. Yeah, this is the Star Wars programs.

I've talked to numerous people, and I talk about this all the time in my projects, that this likely had a backdoor to both fund UAP programs and act offensively against UAP. So there seems to be numerous methods for them to crash accidentally or be brought down forcefully. How often is that successful? I have no idea. And what sort of technology is being brought down? In Jake's case, we have the testimony of the egg and the eight gone. And there's also the classic saucer and so forth.

And this technology is obviously not ubiquitous. There's different types of technology. There's different craft design. One could reasonably assume then there's different types of NHI, some man, some not manned. I often think back to the 2008. I'll say this slow because it's, of course, very complicated. but the 2008 contractor that rhymes with Backeed Barton wanting to divest themselves of a craft to... You could say this.

David Grush said this on Joe Rogan. Oh, okay, okay. So in 2008, when Lockheed wanted to get rid of materials to the OSSEP program through the CIA office, the Directorate of Science and Technology, Glenn Gaffney. And he blocked that. Correct. He blocked that and stopped that from happening. And, you know, I have really good reason to believe that this was the 155.

this was materials or the craft from the 1953 Kingman crash. And there's also other lines of research. I believe that, too, by the way. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Good. Yeah. And there's other lines of research to suggest that Lockheed, the only reason they were able to give this up is because they were completely

comfortable in the fact that no contract, no other contractor, no other foreign government or no U.S. government could make any heads or tails of this technology. And that stands out a huge juxtaposition from all the other stories of alien reproduction vehicles being created. Yeah. Yeah, so where are you there? Because I think this is really important is like how much have we actually reverse engineered made progress and made these things flyable?

And you've gone really deep on this interesting story of Mark McCandlish and Brad Sorensen. But I'd love to hear you. Let's go over that story. And then I also just want to kind of zoom out and get your view on like have we reverse engineered UFOs effectively. Okay. So Brad Sorensen, he's an industrial designer with his friend Aerospace Illustrator. who had worked for defense contractors, popular science, Mark McCandlish. In October to December of 1980s.

Yeah, so McCandlish is a top aviation illustrator, working with the biggest contractors, and you hear him speak and like the guy doesn't seem like a liar to me. He was a genius. He was super smart and like just almost like slightly, I don't want to say autistic, but like you just hear him speaking, he oozes authenticity. Yeah, yeah. So Mark and Brad are. to go to an air show at Norton Air Force Base in 1988.

Mark had to not go to do work for popular mechanics. We can actually see the cover of that magazine he worked on. So Brad goes with some former high-up official. I initially at the time thought it might have been Frank Carlucci, but it might have been somebody else he went with. The air shows going on. There's all types of interesting stuff, you know, fighters, advanced technologies, and so forth.

And then the person Brad is with brings him to a classified exhibit at another hangar and passes Brad off as his aid. This was a former like secretary of defense or really high a person and there were other, you know, senators there, Georgie Brown, Jr., cransston, and so forth. Mark kind of thought this might have been flown down to Air Force Plant 42, a couple miles away. But after further research and talking to some people, I do think this event did occur at Norton. So Brad Swartson has brought into a hangar where all sorts of advanced aerospace vehicles are shown off. So this is like a back of the house, more secret version of the air show, only for select

people. Yeah. And so there's like a hovercraft. There's the losing competitor to the B2 Spirit bomber race. There's a craft called the Pulsar, which is likely a Lockheed Northrop Group craft. It's an unmanned UAV, unmanned aerial vehicle. And it was designed to go at incredible speeds with scramjet technology to go super fast that could deploy like 120 nuclear warheads on its underbelly.

insane piece of technology. And this whole giant, this whole giant hanger is separated by black curtain. So eventually they go to the other side of the black curtain. And that's where mama, baby, and Papa Bear are. These are three flying saucers hovering off the ground. Identical in composition, but scale to different sizes.

What stood out to me from, so. And these look like acorn shaped. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. It looks like a jello mold with half a ping pong ball at the top. Yep.

So sort of a typical saucer shape or maybe what you would see in the Kexburg crash of 1965 is like a dome on top. Yeah, like a dome on top. And I want to pause here for a second because historically people have said that Mark McCandleish has relayed this story second hand, which he has created line art of the craft, which we'll go into in a second. But this was not supposed to be published what I found. And I was told it wasn't supposed to be published by a person. But I found an original interview from, I think, 1990 with Brad Sorens and N. Bill Scott of Aviation Week and Space Technology. So no longer is this a secondhand retaliation.

No, this is straight from Brad Sorensen. Okay, this is not a secondhand encounter. This is straight from Brad, who by the way gave me death threats. I don't like Brad. Not a nice guy. Yeah. He sent you some pretty weird shots across the bow and said something about, so Mark McCandler died a sort of strange death.

Right. And he said something like, I couldn't protect him anymore or something. And then I believe the filmmaker who made this documentary, I forget what the name of the documentary is on Mark McAngeles, which is called Zero Point, something about Zero Point. Yeah, the Hunt for Zero Point, but it's something about... Zero point, like the story of Mark McCandler. That's right, something like that.

I think James Allen, he died in a weird way. Super progressive cancer in his autopsy report. It showed evidence of heavy metal poisoning. Right. And I've actually talked to the editor of that interview since, and he said that they had received kind of threats, like Men and Black type encounters and so forth. So somebody did not want this out.

Yeah. And so, okay, Brad Sorensen actually has a firsthand interview with Bill Scott of Aviation Week. Yeah. Yeah. It goes back to the early 90s. What was he? Was it 1990? Yeah. So what did he say? So he said he saw these three craft. There was a demonstration by like cats and suits with a kind of a VCR and a video showing the craft over a dry lake bed hopping, hopping, hopping, hopping, and shooting up into the air. And there were some panels pulled off of the craft and essentially the bottom portion had what looked like a giant like Tesla coil. almost like copper plates and a rotary arm to reach out. The top part looked like a removable crew cabin. This had F4 Phantom Jump Seat, super crap, like a handball control mechanism, which by the way, that was the control mechanism for the triangular craft and secret machines by Tom DeLong. But that's a whole other story. And the thing looked like, all three looked like

crap. Sorensen said that it looked like it was made by scientists, not engineers. There was no beauty and design. There was no streamlining of features. There was slag on it, chips. These things looked like they had beaten up. There were rivets on the outside. And so eventually during the pitch for this was to garner funding because Reagan had put a lot of effort into this project with Star Wars and so forth. In the incoming administration they wanted

to see just as much advanced aerospace money put in. And so the story behind this by the men in charge was that these craft were created, were copied from technology found in a crash in 47. The technology was not given to us. It was forcibly taken. It was never meant to be had the people who it was taken from or the things that it was taken from was it was taken forcefully and that this was our poor man's interpretation

of how this technology worked. So interesting because, yeah, that's the rumor about Roswell. It was high powered radar that we sort of, you know, that messed with, interfered with the flight pattern. of these UFOs and they come down and we weren't meant to have this stuff and then you hear rumors in and around legacy programs of like whatever beings are in control of the UFOs like want their stuff back and are extremely angry at the legacy UFO programs and so that begets all sorts of weird ontological questions there but I want to stick with the core details so what else gives

you conviction that this is that this is true and that we do have flyable UFOs because I just think you know, so many people are going to sort of be skeptical. Right. I completely understand. It's such a crazy topic. But this was the birthplace of what we'll call ARV, alien reproduction vehicle. This was kind of the first ever big testimony of it. And Mark McAllish, before he passed in 2020, due to a self-inflicted gunshot wound that, you know, who knows.

He investigated the flux liner, what it was called, ARV multiple times. He talked to an individual named Kent Sellen, who said he saw this over Edwards Air Force Base in the 70s. he has an image taken by a pilot Harvey something. I can't quite remember over Provo, Utah, right by Dougway Proving Grounds in the 60s. And that looks identical down to the synthetic vision system on the outside, which was an array of cameras to kind of point to a location. That's what's so interesting about this. It's as if we were given this sort of intact shell. And then we retroactively patchworked on like kind of low tech.

Yeah, like the jump seats. The jump seats and the cameras. And then you kind of like make, you like make this thing at work. But like it's this really low tech combined with a really high tech that we were given or something. But this isn't the only example. You know, there's the controversial account of Edgar Foucher. A lot of people like to discount, especially because they like to say that Foucher has been debunked due to a lot of controversy with the alien scientist. That I still think is it's really worth revisiting.

I talked about it a little bit. But the alien scientist is this YouTuber named Jeremy Reeves. Yeah. Yeah. And he had a relationship with Foucher. Okay. I've talked to the guy. He's a nice guy. Yeah, yeah, he's cool. But he's pretty, he's pretty critical of Foucher. So, yeah,

what, so what's up with Edgar Foucher and? So Foucher was a USAF master sergeant that actually has various, USF is United States Air Force. He has verifiable work at Area 51 in the 70s. Okay. And he said whilst at Area 51, he would work on like advanced satellite uplinks and so forth, but he would come to learn from various friends he knew, including some NSA officials of the TR3. B reverse engineered flying triangle. Yeah. Weirdly enough, I've talked to a guy who former army in the mid-2010s who said he saw a

like a triangle craft jut off of an airway in Area 51. That's pretty interesting. Well, we can say this now because I said this in my piece with Randy Anderson. Randy Anderson, you know, who you introduced me to this green beret, amazing guy who claimed to be taken, you know, to this off-world Technologies Division at Naval Surface Warfare Crane. also occasionally does contractor work at Area 51, and he's told both of us now, and I've said this publicly,

that he has seen triangle craft that he can only presume uses electrogravetic propulsion because it's not using normal flight principles, at least observably, to him, take off at Area 51. Yeah, well, this is even a separate guy, too. Okay, so then you have another guy.

Yeah, okay. He said that this took off during a, in the Chow Hall at A5-1, the, during classified takeoffs of aircraft, the windows are supposed to be lower, nobody looks outside, but because he was with a colonel, they just kind of looked outside. And a craft took up, it didn't disturb any of the dust around it, shot up silently, just vertically straight up. And there's so many stories about this.

Even Paul Benowitz, who was totally mentally screwed up with and sci-opt by Rick Doty, Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Project Bata's great book by Greg Bishop, documents all of this. You know, like, even him. the reason that he got onto the radar of all these kind of like counter intel people was because he saw this craft, you know, vertically taking off and landing at Crittland Air Force Base that looked to be like it was employing exotic flight principles. Right.

And we know from William Steinman, this great researcher, UFO researcher, that this guy, Eric Henry Wang, who ran special projects at Wright Patterson or Wright Airfield at the time, was taken to Crittland Air Force Base to work probably on some of this exotic flight stuff. Yeah. And Wang was also talked about by private. primary kingman witness, Arthur Stancel Jr. Yep. So that's funny too, but this craft the TR3B, there were allegedly multiple versions, a prototype and operational version ranging from 200 to 600 feet in diameter, crewing for

serving as logistics and transportation for what could only be known as a secret space fleet. The propulsion device for the system was reverse engineered by Sandia and Livermore to FFRDCs. the program was ran by the NSA, CIA, and NRO. And the contractors at work were Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, a couple others. But here's what's... I hate to say this all makes so much sense. But it just fits so well with all the other stuff you're wearing. This is the most interesting part to me about the whole TR3B thing.

Yeah. Foucher says the pilots for this were plucked from the Air Force test pilot school. Okay. Which takes place at Edwards, which is the 412 test wing. There's a witness that contacted Greer in 2023 that I, I found his name, investigated him thoroughly in an Edwards piece that claimed he operated out of Edwards Air Force Base and Nellis in Area 51 on testing reverse engineered vehicles. I have shown you a little bit about this guy, right, including like the work he did at the Pentagon and Nellis and Edwards. And he was a director of an electronic or kind of an electronics warfare group at Edwards under the 412 test wing, which is exactly what Foucher said tested the TR3 vehicles.

That is a phenomenal case. So what does he say exactly? So he said he tested reverse engineered vehicles. At Area 51. At Area 51. And Edwards. So he said in 1998 to 2002, this guy, Ed, was briefed into programs while he was at Nellis under the 98th Range Wing, which became the Nevada test and training range, which is

pretty interesting in itself. But that then in about 2006, he was sent to Edwards to actually work and set programs as a director of an electronics warfare group. And like, I vetted this guy quite well. I've tried to contact him in numerous ways. Would you ever put out of story with him? If he would talk to me, I would instantly. Okay.

Instantly. So you just know about it. You're not in contact him. My number is blocked by him. I've tried to call him. Oh, wow, wow. Email him. You told me about it.

Yeah, yeah. I've tried to message him on social media. Funny enough, one time he accepted a Snapchat request. Whoa. And I messaged him, but he never got back. No. So this is what I think one of the most consequential, untapped testimonies there is.

So many of these guys, like, as soon as you initiate contact, they say a little thing, and they say a thing, they get kind of excited, and then they get spooked. Well, Greer did the right thing with this witness, Ed. He was going to bring him in front of Senate Select Committee on Intelligence to testify. The guy got cold feet right beforehand. And, like, I had this confirmed to me by elements of Senate and so forth. So this isn't just Greer saying that. But this guy was supposed to testify.

By, like, a Senate aide or like? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And this guy was supposed to speak but got cold feet. Why is that because he was threatened? I don't know. If you look through the Greer Archive, there's other witnesses.

It's actually really interesting to see witnesses who are going to talk to Greer and so forth, but then say they've been threatened with some really horrible crimes, like really gross stuff. So messed up. Yeah, that if they continue to talk will happen. I just don't understand why there isn't some sort of limited disclosure around these things existing. Because it's like in the event in which, you know, we're at par with. China and Russia, why wouldn't you let out some like basic surface area that this stuff exist? Like that's what, is it just this bureaucratic bullshit overhang or are there real national

security reasons for not letting this stuff out? And not letting it fully out, but like, like nuclear physics is not classified. Nuclear trade secrets are. Why can't, why is that not fully analogous to this? I mean, it must be, even looking at the testimony of Ed, he said 2009 to 2010, he was part of an Air Force going public plan that was called off by a two-star general. Why? Yeah.

There are all these, well, it's like you had under the Bush White House, Bush 43, they were going to do this sort of, you know, possible. They were going to, they were thinking about disclosure and Hal Putoff was part of this advisory group, and they were talking about it. And anyways, Bush 43. So Howell Putoff is on record saying that Bush 43 contemplated disclosure with Stephen Hadley, National Security Advisor. And, you know, Dick Cheney, who David Grush is on record saying, you know, was,

one of the gatekeepers for the program and they decided that it was too ontologically shocking to let this out and that we couldn't publicly disclose about UFOs and I think that turned into a group where they were reading about like they're reading the three body problem and other things

like that. So super interesting. I mean this could also boil down to and the three body problem for people that don't know is a Chinese science fiction novel. It's a great series. It's a great series and involves basically like aliens controlling almost all frontier science.

Yeah. And sort of reality itself and being able to stagnate, but also, you know, upstart physics. And yeah, reality being sort of information theoretic in nature. And the whole thing is so fascinating. And this could all deal with the subject of ARVs. But real quick, you mentioned Dick Cheney, a little interesting factoid is there is a supposed S-4 whistleblower named Derek Hennessy who claimed he was a Navy SEAL. He wasn't a Navy SEAL.

I had this confirmed, so already not off to a good start. But he claimed he worked at S4 and sometime in the mid-90s that Dick Cheney came into S-4. But the funny connection there is that I can't remember the exact year, but Dick Cheney was actually going around to air bases around the U.S. to close up what he didn't think was operating efficiently. So that's kind of a funny connection. So we know that. He was going around to Air Force Base.

That's fascinating. But we don't, but Derek Hennessy lied about being a seal. So we don't know what's up there. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, yeah, the Dick Cheney thing, I don't know what to think about it, but if there was a government behind our government, Dick Cheney would be the tip of the spear of that thing. Like, if you read this Barton Gellman biography of him, his called The Engler. And it's like that dude single-handedly architected the Iraq War based on like false intelligence. And he was a representative of a lot of oligarchic sort of corporate interests.

And, you know, and then Halberton gets the contract once we go kind of screw up Iraq and then he gets the contract. It's like there's something to that guy where you even read George W. Bush's book decision points. And you're like, yeah, your decisions locally are being made based on, you know, certain intelligence being given to you. And those decisions actually don't seem extremely irrational at each moment. And then it's like, who's giving you the intel? And it's fucking Dick Cheney. And like there's some other guys like, you know, Wolf Witts and sort of. cast of neocon characters, but like Cheney's at the heart of it.

Yeah, I mean, he would make sense as a person at the top of the pyramid like Grushes. Yes, yeah, person at the top of pyramid and maybe of a lineage. I'm about to do a piece on Henry Kissinger and UFOs. Oh, cool, yeah. And I think there's some connections there. And it's like, if you pick a modern Henry Kissinger, it would be Dick Cheney, you know. It's like this guy is the man behind the man. Right.

So we were talking about the ARV and the TR3B. Yeah. And according to Foucher and so forth, that's not the only triangular alien reproduction vehicle. That's in kind of UFO lore. There's also a free reference forensic artists. I've talked about this a few times, Bill McDonald, who's done a lot of work on drawing the Roswell craft. He actually worked with Robert and Ryan Wood to create the two extraterrestrial biological entities mentioned in the majestic document, the Special Operations Manual. In 1992, McDonald met with two Northrop and two Lockheed engineers.

who were fed up with the secrecy and classification of their work, who kind of dictated a drawing of a triangular ARV called the XF-131 Super Sentinel that operated off of like RCS radar cross-section facilities in the Mojave Desert. And I've talked to McDonald about this, and he maintains the secrecy of these engineers to this day, because I said, can I talk to these people? But that design actually was featured in the first ever episode of The X-Files because I can't, Chris, or subconscious.

Chris Carr's. Yeah, Chris, yeah. Contracted Bill McDonald to put that in the... Chris Carr is a creator of the X-Files. Right, right. Bill McDonald was contracted to put that in the first ever episode of the X-Files, which was allegedly based on true stories from John DeSuzza, and that episode is about a triangular alien reproduction.

Triangular alien reproduction vehicle that's seen over an Air Force base. It's the same design. I've featured some clips of that. That's so interesting. I think Hollywood has been engaging in soft UFO disclosure for 30 or 40 years through these CAA liaisons. We have Spielberg's new movie Disclosure. It's now called Disclosure.

And I was talking to Chris Ramsey again. Great YouTube channel. Go follow at Area 52. And he was like, what if a UFO is shown as part of that movie? Would that not be the best way to disclose? And like, I'm kind of, I'm on his side. Like, maybe that happens. And then historically, too, you've had, you know,

close encounters the third kind, which involves Jacques Valet and J. Allen Hinnick. Jacques Valet is played as a character by Prince Watreufo. You see crates that say Lockheed in Northrop? Don't they say... Scunk Works and TRW? If they say that, then you're like, okay, they're talking about next level knowledge. Then they really know.

Because TRW was bought by Northrop in 2002. Right. And TRW was the contractor behind the Zodiac story, which is an alleged crash. So I think they do say skunk works and... Because, Closing County was... Yeah, Skunk Works and TRIV. They do? Okay.

I don't know. Interesting fact about TRW. Yeah. Jack Valle has talked about Dr. Eric A. Walker, we talked about earlier, being on the board of directors or a chairman of TRW as well. Oh, wow. Fascinating. So, yeah, I mean, Spielberg was dialed in with, you have to go deep to talk about skunk works and TRW in the film. Yeah, well, let's look up, you know, at some point, whether it's Lockheed and North or Oakworks. You're sure.

Okay. Well, that's next level. Then, yeah, he knows a lot of knowledge. Also, on the Townsend Brown, who I'm sure discovered some interesting effects in the world of gravity, I'm sure. of that. I feel very high conviction in that. And I just interviewed Carl Nell, who's the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman, where I'm saying, again, that this gravity technology got probably implemented in the B-2 stealth bomber. And he's the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman, and he goes, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown when I ask him, are there, is there anything

sort of useful or applicable in the UFO story? Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Taylor Townsend Brown and some other very interesting, like heretical. technology so I'd invite people unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts. So there's more corroboration beyond that on the T.T. Brown stuff.

But where was I going with? What were you just saying? TRW, close-and-the-third kind before that. Oh, oh, okay. So Stephen Spielberg executive produced back to the future. Yeah. And the subplot of the whole

Thomas Townsend Brown story is that gravity affects time. In general relativity, gravity and time are tightly coupled and they're related. And he talks about time travel constantly with his family. Like that's something that's really, and if you think about it, if we were to ever engage in effective interstellar travel, it would involve space-time metric engineering inherently. You can't get around that. Even with nuclear thermal propulsion, you get to the closest star system in 40,000 years. That's too, biologically, that does not work, right? So he's super into time travel. And then you have back to the future, out, which is a Steven Spielberg executive-produced movie.

The guy's name is Doc Brown, which everybody called Thomas Townsend Brown. His name is Emmett Brown, E-M-E-T-T-Brown. Thomas Townsend Brown is in the name. He uses his flux capacitor. Thomas-Touns-N-Brown's experiments are capacitor experiments. And he goes back in time in 1985, which is the year Thomas Townsend Brown dies, to 1957, which is when I think his experiment was first experimentally proven around that time at the Bonson Labs, it's the time that physics sort of went astray in the wrong direction when I think

the anti-gravity stuff went black. And so it's just, I don't know, there's so much there that I think begets this like greater. And then ET even is extremely interesting. E.T. and the kid like lock it, like they have some sort of weird psionic connection. And you remember they're in the hospital together. And E.T.'s like heart rate is matching the kid's heart rate. And you have all this stuff around the psionic connection that's now coming out. You also have the consciousness connection there where the mother is walking around the kitchen and like these kids have taken these kids see the ETs but the mother doesn't and like the ET is sort of like walking it around the fridge and the mother doesn't see it because like her perceptive she's closed off to

these realities um so like I I think seems Spielberg definitely has been fed some really interesting UFO stuff over the years and was it Spielberg or Cameron that created the film the abyss that was James Cameron okay because that's also an interesting one about USO. Totally. It's interesting to see these concepts relate in Hollywood, because James Cameron, Steven Spielberg, and Christopher Nolan are definitely fed intense

secret shit. Yeah. They have to be. I'm sorry. Because on one hand, you have films like Independence Day, which is just a bombastic action film glorified. But then on the other hand, you have very thoughtful projects like Close Encounters of the Third Kind and to an extent E.T. And as we know now, back to the future.

But even like not, where is the concept of men in black? Men in Black sounds quacky. Yeah. But like if you talk to Richard Dolan, he's a super deep UFO researcher, men in black are the, they are this thing. They're in these suits and they show up after UFO abduction experiences, UFO sightings, and they often take people's footage or like, you know, swear them to secrecy.

And he thinks, Dolan thinks they're almost like the counterintel group of the aliens themselves. They erase your memory. And so it's turned into this like kind of jokey, funny, you know, movie with Will Smith. But like even that, like where is that derived to begin with? Right. And it's just so it's so fascinating, you know? That's interesting that because I've heard that idea floated around before that the like colloquial men in black are almost like a non-human entity.

Because I almost, I'd like to hear more about that because I almost staying on the other side. I straight up think the men in black in a sense are NSA spooks. So I would say the same thing. But like you meet with certain people like Whitley Streber and other just experiencers. And like these guys seem to like have technology available to them. That's not available to the general public. And maybe that is just like, okay, so it's like Occam's Razor, it's like NSA or something. But it's weird technology.

It's like implants that involve technological mediumship as Whitley Street. I've felt his implant in his ear. Really? Yeah. I felt it. And it's the weirdest thing. And he says it moves with his own metabolism. I haven't verified that.

But like- Is he ever thought about getting that cut out? He wants to get it cut out, but he says it moves every time. And I felt the thing, and it's not natural. So unless he's totally grifting and putting the thing in his ear, even though he's not really like making that much money now off of UFOs. And it happened after he wrote Communion. And like, it's like, I don't know, man.

The whole thing's so strange. That is interesting. You know, perhaps the two are not mutually exclusive. Because there's also stories like, have you heard of treat? No. It's the supposed men in black unit out of the NSA called the Taxa. called the tactical reconnaissance engineering assessment search team, which was created by Stubblebine. Ah.

And it's only ever been talked about by Foucher and Hans Adams, the crown prince of Lichtenstein. So that's come up for me, and I've never brought that up. But how, yeah, how do you think that the crown prince of Lichtenstein? Because I've heard some very interesting things about him. He seems like a really cool guy, but like really interested in the spooky science stuff. I've only ever seen his discussions with like Greer and the emails on the DPI archive and looked up a few things about him and him mentioning treat. Besides that, I have no idea because I would see that.

And I said, crown prince of Lichtenstein, a small central European company. What have you found out about him? Because that's, that's pretty interesting. I don't, I don't, you know, I probably shouldn't say because the conversations I've had are in confidence. But he seems very interesting and interested in sort of secret science. It's one more piece of possible corroboration of, you know, maybe it being a combo as far as the men in black is I did speak to Hal put off recently. And I was trying to figure out, I was like, is it their program? You know, is it the NHI program or is it our program?

And he goes, what if it's a joint space program? He goes, I might believe that. Maybe there's something in. He did. He did. Yeah. To me. Jeez.

Yeah. So in Hal put off is, I think, as deep as it gets when it comes to sort of outside the Overton window science, which is. He's now being vindicated. I mean, he was just on a podcast in December, which was co-sponsored by National Science Foundation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, you had, like, pretty high up DOE people on the podcast and all these amazing people with pretty impressive credentials, the former head of revolutionary tech at SkunkWorks are all on this podcast.

And he's talking about extended electrodynamics and gravity manipulation. And I think it's clearly this sort of limited hangout where it's like, let's partially expose some things so that people can, you know, learn a little bit more about some science that we've been sitting on, especially, again, if China has caught up, you can't just, you know, throw people off the trail constantly. You need some limited surface area around it. But yeah, Hal put off did say, and, you know, it's always, I love Hal, but it's always this sort of like, you know, tongue and cheek, like half speculating. So you never quite now. He never commits to, he never commits to something. He always goes, the whole zoo of possibilities. And it's like,

A, B, C, and D. And then you have to decide. idea. I, sometimes I wonder about howl and how much he'll commit to subjects, because under his tutelage and good friend, of course, is Eric Davis. And recently, like, as you know, Missile Man, myself and others talking to Eric Davis. You did a great interview with Eric Davis. He said a lot of interesting things, but he also said a couple things I disagree with. One, he said that the only FFRDC he knew it was the Aerospace Corporation, which I disagree with. But I think that's because he was only read into a subselection of legacy programs under Allsap. But he also said that alien reproduction vehicles don't exist.

Do you think there's aircraft systems that have kind of leveraged technologies? Definitely no aircraft that leveraged anything. And there's been no one-to-one reproduction. A lot of that fell into the psyche of the UFO community because of Bob Lazar and then Brad Sarence and Mark McCallis. So I don't know where they're coming from. And then other people kind of came out of the woodwork saying the same thing. But no proof.

And I'm only left with two possibilities when I think about that. One is that he's lying. Two is that he was only read into a select subsection of programs that only overlapped Locky trying to get rid of Kingman materials. And thus, he would not know about ARV because those weren't part of the program. And I kind of lean towards that explanation because I really don't agree with that assessment. And at the end of the interview, I had a little notebook with the flux liner on it. And I said, you know, Dr. Davis, you've really.

really haven't even considered this testimony of Mark McCandlish and the flux liner. And he said, but right before we cut off, well, Hal put off interviewed Brad Sorensen. And we never got to talk about that more. And to this day, I want to ask him so badly about how that went, because Hal has spoken to Sorensen. Wow. And I just need to know how that goes. I wish Hal could speak a little bit more candidly in an open setting because he's also super cagey in the program with James Fox. And he's also kind of integral to the story of Zodiac, the alleged crash retrieval program first introduced in UFO magazine in 1998. What is Zodiac? Got that's a really interesting one. So in 1998, UFO magazine published a story by a pseudonym Greg Halifax about sedge masters, a story about somebody who is

brought into a UFO crash retrieval program called Zodiac. This occurred in 1988. 2001 or 2002, there's an email chain with Howl put off Kit Green and Eric Davis talking about the Santilli Alien Autopsy Film and so forth. And Kit Green saying he saw different pictures of an alien autopsy. But then in a later thread in that email, somebody, one of the three, brings up Zodiac in the Sedge Master's story. And most of this work needs to be credited to, of course, Richard Dolan, who actually tracked down the very likely author of the Zodiac story and puts a lot of fiftiax story and puts a lot

of faith that the Zodiac was indeed a crash retrieval program and it was operated by TRW. So that's just a fascinating story how even, it seems like everything kind of post-2000 or post-1995, Hal, Eric, and Kit. What is the core story of Zodiac? Like, what is- It's essentially the Majestic 12 by another name. Hmm. Because the Majestic 12, for people who don't know, was introduced under, the Majestic 12 documents first appeared in 1984 in a film canister to UFO, or to TV producer Jamie Shanderer.

and this included the Eisenhower briefing document and later the special operations manual and then a whole host of other documents. And this details the Majestic 12 as supposed UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering group spearheaded by Vannevar Bush, including Dr. Rossco Hill Encoder, Dr. Donald Menzel, I think his name is, Von Neumann. Von Neumann, Jerome Hunsaker, who else? Denzel Ward. Vandenberg. Yeah. Hoyt Vandenberg, Nathan Twining. You have a bunch of head honchos and military intelligence science.

And so, you know, Majestic 12, Zodiac, 12, 12 signs. Some might suggest in the realm of UFO study that Zodiac is another name for Majestic 12, just like Maj 12 has been called other names, like the working group, the PI 40, by that guy, AH, we talked about with Greer. So it's a super interesting story that I hope sees more coverage because Richard Dolan has been a true trailblazer in the Zodiac. story and it's just kind of like the secret retrieval team. So to be quite plain after talking with Ryan Wood, I think the Majestic 12 did exist in a capacity and probably still exist today. But I am

hesitant to think about like a very ubiquitous crash retrieval team. I think that there's a very wide swath of retrieval teams and retrieval operations. Well, there are people who I think are pretty credible who talk about this like these continuity of government programs. Yeah. So the 5412 committee, you know, national security, you know, committee, you know, know, back in the 50s and 60s, that turned into the 303 committee, which turned into the committee of 40. Do you have anything to say about that as far as they're kind of, you know, interest in the only thing I know is that Colonel John B. Alexander said that the Majestic 12 was specifically a continuity of government program. Right. But I hasten to adhere to what he says, because he lied about

the Special Operations Manual. He lied about a bunch of stuff. Yeah. And even in the Wilson memo, you know, where the, you know, the Wilson, of course, you know, Wilson memo. So this is, it was in 1997? 1997 was when the Greer, Will Miller, Thomas Wilson, Stephen Lovekin meeting took place, the briefing took place.

Okay, interesting. But one was, and then... 2002 is this meeting between Eric Davis, who's again, this Hal put-off protege, propulsion's expert.

Yeah. And like exotic physics expert. It's in the parking lot of EG&G, and he's meeting with Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of Joint Chiefs, Joint Chiefs, J2, you know, He was like intelligence for JCS at the time.

So he should have like all exotic tech under his purview and he's extremely, he's basically expressing extreme dissatisfaction that you had these rogue groups working on purportedly UFOs who he met with. Yeah. And it's out of his jurisdiction. And in that document that I believe was found in the Edgar Mitchell estate, in that document, it says J.A. is a liar. And I think J.A. is John Alexander.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because John Alexander has been publicly said, oh, Majestic 12 exists and had nothing to do with UFOs and kind of all of that before. And of course, he kind of said myths truths about what Dr. Ryan Wood said about the special operations manual. Ryan Wood and Robert Wood did a ton of provenance research on the majestic documents, getting the physical onion skin documents, putting them through rigorous testing of materials.

So what do you think about these documents? Because their popular view, like with those kind of old school, like UFO researchers like Robert Hastings, you know, who wrote UFOs and nukes, is that these were, this was passage material. So it was like meant to detect spies. It contained all sorts of falsities. You're giving it to this film producers, friends with all these UFO researchers, Jamie Chanderer. And then I think other versions of the Majestic 12 were then doled out in packages to other UFO researchers. Because there's a whole host of documents. and the source cannot be all from the same person.

And a bunch of varying quality documents. I tend to adhere to the work of Stanton Friedman who spent a bunch of time authenticating the special operations manual and Eisenhower briefing document with the Woods. I think those two probably have the strongest claims of real documents, as well as the two IPU Interplanetary Phenomenon unit reports.

One of them is a seven-page report that sounds very similar to the Eisenhower briefing document and talks about the Roswell. crash retrieval and so forth. Later on down the line, you get a lot of other documents like the burned memo and the Project Aquarius document from Lee Graham. The burned memo or the Project Aquarius, one of them, I can't remember, which actually makes reference to Project Zodiac, by the way, and like Project Jehovah and M.K. Ultra.

But a lot of the earlier documents, like the Eisenhower briefing document, a lot of the dates and specific discussions line up with real events. for example, James Forrestall meeting with Truman. Dates are mentioned when those two met and kind of discussed the future or the inception of Majestic 12 and so forth. Have you looked in the Library of Truman, Library of Eisenhower when he's supposedly briefed. These presidents and President incumbents had these meetings. I believe Dolis's diary recently came out and it showed a meeting with him and Eisenhower

or something and that was like a real meeting. And his diary came out after the Majestic 12 documents obviously had come out and they corroborated the information in the Majestic 12 documents. So it's probably similar to the bizarre stuff where it's like some of the stuff is just true. And then maybe true and under a different name and maybe they were looking for spies and there was some passage material involved. But yeah, it is interesting. And then there were other documents like the Cutler Twining memo that is really difficult to dispute and so forth. I was actually reading on the plane over here different validation of majestic documents.

And there's just been like a lot of mentions of majestic documents before, including I can't remember the general's name, but a four star general who was out. about the documents. He said they're real. The Majestic 12 is real. I can't tell you any more than that. Because I know that the Majestic 12 to many sort of hobbyists in this subject is nothing more than kind of conspiracy material. They just think Majestic 12 may, you know, not true. But if you were to simulate back then, if a UFO issue were a thing and we had exotic materials and we were in contact with, you know, an extraterrestrial or interdimensional intelligence, you would need our best and brightest on it. And if you look at that list of people, those would be the people on it.

Yeah. Vannevar Bush would be heading it up. And then, of course, Vannevar Bush is completely unconnected with Robert Sarbacher and Dr. Eric A. Walker has also mentioned as the head of UFO research. That's right. And then you have Gordon Gray, who is also on the majestic— Don Menzel, who admitted, you know, he was super red in on a Navy. CIA, a bunch of, you know, pretty classified info and admitted as much actually to Kennedy.

And St. And Friedman actually writes about this was sort of in charge of disinfo and debunking, which he was debunking a lot of people. And there's this amazing Swedish astronomer Beatrice Villarreal. Yeah. And she talks about Menzel having like deleted like all this astronomical information from like 1953 and onwards in from the Harvard Observatory. Yeah. And at the Harvard Undersea Observatory at the time, you had Robert Sarbocker.

He was working there. And then the number, I think James Conant was the president of Harvard. And he was like the number two guy, you know, the Manhattan Project at the time. So, yeah, I don't know. It's hard to say, but it sort of makes sense. It's directionally correct. Yeah. And, you know, it's not unreasonable to think that the group evolved over time, changed names and so forth.

I mean, you have in 1986 or 86 or 87 when Eric. Walker's asked by Steinman about the Majestic 12 and he gives the Don Quixote impersonation. You're chasing after windmills. It's impossible to chase after the Majestic 12. The Majestic documents were first delivered to Shanderay and Friedman and so forth in 1984. That's when the first documents were actually kind of received but weren't given to like a Mufon Symposium until 87. What's interesting is the documents were kind of mailed out in 84 and then if we look at the manuscript of Corso, it kind of seems like around 86 the Majestic 12 took on a new name. working group and got new blood like Albert Stubblebine and some NSA people and some CIA people.

So it's interesting to think how this group may have evolved over time and possibly it changed its name to the working group because it was aware of the leaks at the time. The whole history is fascinating. I think maybe one of the tip of the spear frontier, longitudinal timeline assessments of like, you know, all UFO oversight is this great article by Chris Sharp at the Liberation Times. Oh, yeah. It's really interesting stuff.

And there's some connections you've made between Woods Hole and like, you know, some of, you know, yeah, Crane, exactly. And Randy Anderson's story. But I also just want to touch on, you know, he talks about how it was the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, which was before the National Security Act, before the CIA, you know, was formed. They were sort of in charge of like the initial UFO, you know, custody. And I think we have a decent map of actually what occurred.

So David Gresh says that there's this magenta crash in Lombardy in Italy in 1933, exactly. I've now made the connection through some people, this woman, Pippa Malmgren, who's amazing. She's really interested in the UFO thing, but she was actually special assistant to George W. Bush. She made it clear to me that James Jesus Angleton was the U.S. like OSS. person involved in Italy at the time. And so rumors are that you have this magenta crash and then Mussolini goes to Hitler and says, is this yours to the Nazis? And then they end up working together on it. And so this magenta crash ends up probably being worked on by the Nazis, which explains these like de Glocka, you know,

rumors and Kamlerstab and sort of modern Czechoslovakia and Poland where they're working on these flying saucers. You have tons of reports around this from Rudolf Schreiber, Richard Mehta, a bunch of guys. at the time, along with Paul Mellon and Alan Dulles, there's a story of Paul Mellon kind of spilling the beans to his, you know, grandson who's alive now, John Warner the 4th, about like sitting, you know, standing over a UFO that can employ exotic flight principles in modern day Czechoslovakia. Wow.

And so you can, you kind of can come up with this thread of like the Lombardi magenta crash happens. It goes to the Nazis. Maybe there's some custody where the Vatican is involved. Yeah, I've heard that from Grush. I heard that from Grush. And then it goes over to the U.S. And then it's worked on at Wright Airfield.

And you have all these operation overcast paperclip Nazi scientists who then, that's part of the rush to get the Nazi scientists, is to get the ones who are like that, you know, this deep on like really exotic, you know, flight principles and UFO stuff. We now know Hans Kamler himself, who's in charge of the blackest of the black Wunderwaffe programs for the Nazis. made his way to the U.S.

And so you kind of have this somewhat consistent narrative of like what happened with this early UFO crash and how the U.S. started to get involved with this stuff. And all the guys who were involved in the early Marshall Plan and tech transfer programs, Kissinger was an Army counterintel guy who was doing tech retrieval at the time. And you have other examples. You know, you mentioned Forrestall. Forrestall, you know, was as well. and he was Secretary of the Navy.

So. Mm-hmm. He threw himself out of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda. Yeah, exactly. Mid-Sophocles poem, yeah. And the Magenta case is so interesting because Mussolini thought it was a Nazi advanced craft or a British or American advanced craft when he had his own special investigation group, the RS-33, who was like really keen on the fact this wasn't human technology and then likely

worked with the Nazis. Yeah, and apparently Marconi's grandson might be like on the very, of saying something of this Pinote, this Italian UFO researcher who's like really on that trail. I'd love to hear of more of a description because the only real description we have is from the RS 33 like a disc and then grush like a lenticular shape. And that begs the question when we brought over Operation Paperclip scientists, so Nazi scientists, if there's kind of a collaboration in crash retrieval groups today. Even in 2003, you had a Canadian a defense member or parliament member Larry McGuire who wrote to the head of Canadian defense

wanting to bring the Canadian people up to speed on UFO programs because there was an active five-eyes nation that was working together on material exploitation and so forth. Well, there's a scientific principle called the Kiwanda effect and it involves stabilizing basically a saucer-like craft and there's a pat this guy, Henry Kowando was this guy's Romanian scientist. He has a patent on this from 1936. and I think at points he was in Vichy, France, but he basically was forced to work under the Nazis, and then he was taken to write Patterson

to work on Project Y, which was an extension of the Avrocar project, which is trying to get flying saucers to work. And then William Steinman connects this with Thomas Townsend Brown and his gravity experiments where they were coordinating with Thomas Townsend Brown and wanted to see if the gravity stuff worked so they could incorporate it into these saucers or whatever that they had. I wonder how much that collaboration

takes place because, you know, in Grush's News Nation interview, he talks about like a multi-decade Cold War with our adversaries we can assume as Russia and China. I think back to Jonathan Waygant's encounter in 97 in Peru. Once he sees the UFO, he's taken in by these guys in DOE's

rain jackets. He's flown to a place on a CH-47 interrogated for days. When he's brought to this location, this like obscure military base, there's not only Americans there, but there's Chinese, there's Germans. And so who else is collaborating on these projects that there's a multi-decade cold war. Well, that's that that's the

Lazar rumor as well, which is that like Russians were at area 51 too and there was sort of this co-space program. And that was always there's a you know, salt, this is even public. This is open source in the salt one negotiations. I think it's a 1971 treaty. We're talking about coordinating with the Russians on the UFO question because we were worried that they'd mistake for American acts of aggression. That's what Kennedy probably wanted to do as well. So maybe there is some sort of international space program around the UFO thing. I don't know. Yeah. And then we look at, you know, of course there's a lot of drama about this, but the Immaculate Constellation Report that talks about alien reproduction vehicles seen over Indo-PACCOM, which is obviously Chinese territory. Right. Like equilateral triangles with three lights seen it over Chinese territory of adversarial ARV. Right. So it's like clear there's similar programs going on if we have similar triangles. What sort of collaboration is occurring?

It feels hard for me to believe that, like, the surface-level geopolitics that we see is totally fake. Yeah. Like, I do think we are, you know, tensions are at an all-time high with China. But it is interesting. I think in the Lazare account, it's like the Russians started to get kicked out as, like, tensions rose around, like, the development of these ARVs. And so it brings up, it harkens back to this Carl Nell quote, you know, Carl Nell, who is part of the UAP task force with David Grush, was also, deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman and I believe was stationed at Wright-Patterson Airfield. Yeah, and it was also Army Futures Command.

Army Futures Command. And he says there's this sub-Rosa secret conflict arms race going on between us and other countries that's been going on for decades. Yeah, for feudalistic dominance. So that begs the question is the ultimate pursuit, mastery of ARV. Because with ARV might not just be the vehicle, but it might be any sort of weapon or technology that can be exploited as weaponry. Remember what Randy said when he was taking in the crane that the technology was considered weaponry due to an electronic discharge during retrieval. Well, if you think about what the Manhattan project was, it was all about payload potency,

the magnitude. And it's like, how can create a bigger bomb? And then at a certain point, when you're at the czar bomb level or whatever, you're at, you know, 80 megatons plus, it doesn't matter. That's too big for any target. You have tons of czar bombs. It's like, it's, you know, game over for the world. At that point, it becomes the second Manhattan.

Manhattan Project becomes about payload delivery. And it becomes like, who can deliver this payload faster and stealthier? And, you know, it was ICBMs and then it was stealth fighters. And, you know, and so it's, that's, it's a scary world. And I almost don't even love talking about UFOs in this context because I think it's the sacred ontological, metaphysical thing, which should really drive people. Yeah. But I do think that that might be a reality driving some of this stuff.

Yeah, and I completely agree. I think back to the 1988 Norton show as well. when Brad saw the Pulsar craft with the 121 nuclear warheads, the guys were raving on about how this could destroy Russia in like 20 minutes, raving on about that. And then on the other side of the curtain, you have saucers that utilize zero point energy systems. Yep.

That could, you know, drop a nuclear payload in a quarter of a second, or the zero point energy systems can be harnessed to create more devastating effects than even nuclear warheads. Given that, that this technology is probably a forcing function. for extreme good or extreme evil. You know, it can think about nuclear fusion. It could destroy the world or it could save the world. Well, that's what Ed, witness Ed out of Edwards,

had part of the reason he reached out to Greer is because Europoint Energy systems were being harnessed and repressed. Do you believe, because that is part of the Stephen Greer narrative, like the Lost Century. Yeah. I'm not convinced that I believe that we displayed some local effects around over unity, free energy, lower energy, nuclear reaction, you know, whatever.

but the idea that we have scalable free energy that we're hiding in, you know, black compartments feels hard for me to believe, but I'm open. What do you think? I'm not sure because I don't understand the physics enough. Yeah. You know, there's always a world in which these energy systems could be powering deep underground military bases and we just don't know about it that it's already employed on the system at large.

But my knowledge is, you know, we need to call it missile man and ask him his advice on this part because I just don't know enough. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. I can't say I'm a high conviction in any direction there. But how do you like what's the thrust or what's the motivation for your research? Is it just like truth seeking or how do you have a hope for how this sort of UFO thing ends? Because it seems like we've crossed a Rubicon of late as far as people's acceptance.

Yeah, but not enough. I've just been interested in this subject all of my life. And my goal really is just the work. I would like to in a responsible manner help disclose. UAP legacy programs and bring a larger truth about what the craft are, what, what, what, not just what they look like, but where they're from, what they do, why they're here, and how the programs that study and exploit these technologies have been constructed, because there's a lot of very dark things in that aspect, not only just the, the decades of

secrecy, but also just the, the exploitation of possible sentient beings and technology that is not ours. an exploitation of humans? Yeah, that's the contentious thing we talked about as well with Jake and kind of Michael in that testimony with the psionics, because we have historical testimony that these psionic assets used to summon craft are treated like crap, you know, given drug cocktails and so forth to perform efficiently, and that could result in danger or death. And we also have Jake and the psionics team saying they take, you know, quite a bit of pride.

in those actions. So there's a discrepancy there. And if there's people like being being hurt or, you know, being given drugs forcibly, that's, that's bad. It's very bad. It's definitely bad. Yeah, it's not cool. And then the idea, too, where I don't feel like I have probably the most concrete and good orientation towards this. And it's, it's something I struggle with because it's like, you cover some of this stuff and it just leads you into dark territory. Yeah. And it leads you to the territory of like, yeah, I want people to know that this stuff is real. That reality is more expanded than we, you know, realize. But the only way to do that is to uncover some pretty gnarly messed up truths around

like how this stuff has become operationalized. Yeah. And the government's orientation towards this is how can this confer a tactical advantage for us? And I think it's the orientation should be how can this beget more meaning for people and civil side infrastructure updates? And then great. if there are derivative technologies that allow us to protect the free world in a more effective way,

of course they should be funneled to like the right thing. But it feels like the impetus, like the sole impetus is weaponization of this stuff. And I don't think that ends well. If there's an intelligence on the other side of it, which I think there is, I don't think that ends well for us. If that's, if that continues to be our orientation towards this topic, we're dealing with forces way greater than us. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I don't think that. It's a coincidence that, you know, AASAP and, you know, a lot of these programs, the people come out and they're kind of haunted. They have these hitchhiker effects.

I think it's sort of, you know, the two sort of mantras in UFO research world are like, seek and you shall find and fuck around and find out. Look into the, stare into the void and it stares right back. And it's a mirror of what you feel. And people, the description of the sphere often when people, you know, are looked, you know, they're looking for this psionic connection between less participant and these materials. materials, they're often, what's inside of them gets excavated and mirrored in this technology. I mean, it's also very poignant, like looking at the testimony of Corso as well. He said that the purpose of giving this technology to U.S. industry was, A, to bolster the U.S. War Machine, and B, benefit the American people if necessary.

These technologies clearly have not been used to benefit the American people, but if they're used to create alien reproduction vehicles, which I believe they are, and possibly service and unidentified space program or, you know, in near-Earth orbit defense capabilities or payload delivery your human relocation, as Michael saw with the large football field-sized eight-gone craft or operate underground and deep underground military bases, it's clear that that's a very disturbing reality in which it will live. Because that's 80 years of programs, right, that have had time to flourish and hide themselves and, like, layer on themselves. That's a very frightening world. It is a very frightening world. I just retweeted.

Scott Adams, you know, the Dilbert creator, and he said, you know, wherever there is complexity, there is fraud. And I just thought that was so applicable to the UFO question. There is an absurd amount of complexity to the point where disclosure is taking a quantum leap around this Jake Barber story and some of the other stories. And like, mainstream media could not give less of a shit. They don't understand. And it was horrible timing around the inauguration.

Like peak news mania. And then that's when you release this thing. that's beyond the pale for most people, and you're piecemealing in psionics and all these other things. And that's, and I love Ross Colter. I think he's an amazing investigative reporter.

And I think Jake is beyond reproach as well. So it's not a knock on either of them. It's a knock on the timing and maybe News Nation's editing team. Yeah, but it's like, for the 45 minutes special, that had to be like on the editing team. That was not good.

And then everybody started, it started to be vindicated when Ross did this amazing follow-up. Yeah, the two hour 47 minute. And then with, of course, I thought one of the most underappreciated testimonies was Don Paul Bales as well. Oh, yeah. Works closely with Jake. He talked very poignantly on retrieval and implications of crash retrieval. And so that started to kind of refocus the conversation with that, with Fred Baker, with Dr. John Blitch.

Yep. Yeah, you're right. Mainstream media could not care less. It can care less. And it's wild to see realities just diverge so starkly where it's like UFO world is on, it's on another planet. Literally. And then there's also a big pickup in social media categories of kind of discrediting all the stories coming out and whistleblower, so forth. Like, I've even noticed a larger concentration of revisiting and kind of discrediting grush as well, who I find beyond reproach

probably more than anybody else. Yeah. Dude, that guy's like motivated by the right stuff. Yeah. He's pieced together so much. Yeah. And he's been treated like shit. And I think, I think his disclosure was done in the, his disclosures were done in the, in the greatest manner possible, where if you have disclosures but can't necessarily provide firsthand evidence, he provided so much actionable intelligence, whether to pursue IRAD contracts, IDIQ contracts, embedding of programs, history of programs, certain retrieval incidents, Malmstrom Air Force Base incidents. He provided so much actionable intelligence. Hundreds of documents, I think maybe a thousand pages plus to the IC Inspector General Thomas Meinhem, who's now out and they haven't done

anything about it. Nothing. And unless you can look at those documents, and all we have is that Thomas Monheim said it was urgent and credible. And nobody has debunked anything in those documents. So unless you can debunk stuff in those documents, then you need to take action on what this guy is saying. It's absurd. The only knocks people have against Grush is the Ken Clipstein hit piece or the fact his op-ed didn't come out. Where Ken Clipsine, basically, Clippenstein, he admitted to Cigar and Crystal and Cigar, the breaking points, you know, guys, he admitted that like the DoD and I see like tipped him off on the story, basically. Yeah.

So it's, it's just crazy. And then the USAID, we now know was funding The Intercept. I don't know how much of that specifically made its way to Ken Clippenstein. But like, and the dude has all these like secret sources from the USAID. D. So he's like, he's a bad faith actor. I'm sorry. Absolutely. And I made a tweet to that effect and I got threatened to somebody threatened to sue me and I'm not going to say their name because I don't want to amplify them. They're really bad actors. And they've also questioned the service records of, you know, Randy Anderson and Jake Barber, which is just, I think, disgusting to be honest. Like, don't go after

that, you know? There was a lot of talk about like the combat controller pipeline, even though that Jake has said numerous times he was in the pipeline for combat controller, but then was diverted elsewhere. These guys just, and one of them specifically has a clearance, and it's like, I don't know what he's up to, I don't know if he's about, I don't know if he's actually acting like he wants to be a paid disinfo agent, but he hasn't gotten the contract yet, and he's actually just like this small time guy. I think part of this is as well, there's like some popularity to go against kind of the disclosure

movement. And there's like a couple of like prominent channels that really base their entire, um, entire fame off of just debunking everything, like almost pre-debunking stuff. Yeah. A teaser of Jake Barber would come out and they'd already be debunking stuff. Yeah, totally. And they wouldn't list, they don't listen to any of the details and their priors are entirely off because they take nothing seriously.

So it's their Occam's Razor is it's all mass hysteria, which if you look at the levels of government that are now saying that this is real, your Occam's rate, what's, this is like a cabal controlling all these people? It's the greatest mass hysteria. and the history of, it's the best sciop in the world by standard deviations, if that's your claim, which is itself a fantastical null hypothesis. So these people are, they suck, honestly. The cabal stuff is nonsense because it's all talked about in the frame of atyp and ASAP,

which as we've talked about throughout this whole conversation, there's going back to Robert Sarbacher in 1950 and even before in 1933 with Mussolini. There are so many other players involved. There is not, there might be a lot of reoccurring players. that we've also talked about as well in recent disclosures, but the circular reporting, this crash retrieval and reverse engineering is not isolated to a small group of people. No, it's not at all.

If anything, the intelligence community tactic to kind of repress this stuff has been flood the zone. Yeah. So there's too much snake oil to sift through for the average person. I think it moved from secrecy under Blue Book in the 50s and 60s, and then the 80s at some point around the Majestic 12 stuff, this stuff started to get promoted,

but with all sorts of quackery. and you have Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent and other counterintel people like Rick Doty being like there are six alien being in like John Lear saying, you know, there's a soul catcher on the moon or whatever. And that's starting to pop back up with some of Rick Doty's disciples, like the guy I think who's in prison who tweets all the time. Like let me show you a photo of an extraterrestrial and it'll just be a random image. Right. I don't know. So that's starting to pop back up. Yeah.

So it's just, yeah, I don't know. I'd love to. because I think earnest debate is always good. And Mick West, people say he's like a paid asset or whatever. You know, I enjoyed like having him on to debate Merrick and they were debated all the top UFO videos.

And I thought that was like fun and good. And he doesn't seem like, you know, he's like, I want more light shine shown on this. I think he could be a little more like earnestly open to some of this stuff. But like some of these other guys are just like bad vibes.

And like it's totally, it's all ad hoc. And it's it's, you know, they threaten lawfare and stuff and it's whack. It's like it's I hope you, I don't know, just introspect a little bit if, if, you know, I mean, again, read between the lines, see if this applies to you. Because I don't want to mention anybody, but it's like, just think about like what you're doing. Like, are you really on the right side of history? Well, also step back and study the subject a little more because even if you're not ready to make the jump into crash retrievals and reverse engineering yet, go back, look at the history of sign grudge, blue book, Ossap. Go look at numerous sightings, mass sightings.

Just go through a long list of UFO sightings and projects in the 20th century. Yeah. And start there. I mean, there's not the Condon Committee, but the Condon report from England, Project Magnet, Project Second Story, Grudge, Sign, Blue Book, all sorts of UFO programs around the world. Numerous sightings, private corporations contracted to look at UFOs and Battelle. Well, go watch your channel to UAP Gurb, because it's,

It's a, like I said, it's literally a fire hose. It's a canon of like absurd amounts of information to the point where you can't just dismiss it all. There's something going on. Even if that something is slightly adjacent to the consensus truth we all think on aliens, UFOs, maybe the rest of the iceberg doesn't look like the tip of the iceberg. That's fine. I don't think anybody on the pro-UFO side is dogmatic about that.

I think it's just this stuff is worthy of investigation, which clearly it is. And if you're still just trying to figure out, do UFOs exist? just go look at all the dang military reports of pilots and so forth, citing UFOs. Like the Malmstrom case, people dismiss that, but that's a great one to study, Minot Air Force Base in which I think a C1, sorry, a B2 bomber, encountered a saucer flying around it, de-elevating. There's so many stories. Just go read through the Blue Book files of the unexplained cases.

Yeah. No, there are an enormous amount. And anybody in the government capacity looking at this sort of, you know, earnestly, always comes to the same conclusion, which is there's something probably here. Yeah, as Eric Davis says, there's a there there. Clearly. Well, Sammy, UAP, Gurb, this has been an absolute honor. Is there anything else you wanted to cover?

I mean, there are probably a hundred other things you could talk about, but. Nothing really. There's so much stuff we could talk about. I just say to everybody to keep investigating crash retrievals and reverse engineering. There's a ton of interesting cases and interesting studies and corporations and military requirements and send out FOIA requests as well a no answer and a denial is always an answer within itself we didn't even get to that story of the whistleblower who talked about it was it an egg shape craft like off on the Azores like off of Portugal oh yeah yeah we'll we'll save that because I plan to

talk to that guy soon but okay cool a person who was stationed with the USAF who claimed to see a a tick tack a tick tack that's right unloaded from a C1 130 Hercules. Yep. And there's a lot of good research there as well. That C130s are often transport, or what do you mean good research? Oh, just that this incident? Yeah, there's a, because of course this guy when I studied this case, he doesn't have

photos or reports on the actual craft, but the information he can share, which is like the insignia on the C130 and on the nearby vans, just even, even just the C-130 that unloads the Tic-Tac and knowing what military wing that's from can lead to. to such bountiful research, because then you can look where the C-130's from, you can look at nearby contractors, you can look at nearby airwings, you can look at nearby FFRDCs

and start to piece together some interesting stuff based off the testimony. I love it, man. Well, go subscribe to UAPGERB. Check out, you're doing a follow-up with Randy Anderson. It'll probably be out or around out when we put this out, and I know you're going to do an amazing job there, and you're not only going to talk about,

you know, talk to him, corroborate his story, but also, or try to stress test it, you know, whatever. But also go really deep into, you know, the specific contractor, S-A-I-C, which was likely involved in this sort of, you know, psychotronic or psionic research. So, yeah, it's been an honor, Sammy. Really appreciate you stopping by, man. Thanks for having me, man.

Yeah. Appreciate it. Absolutely.