American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - “The NSA Hired Me To Speak To Aliens!” -Sergeant Dan Sherman

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Our American Alchemist this week is Dan Sherman. A former NSA electronic intelligence specialist who claims to have been part of a classified project called Project Preserve Destiny. A Cold War-era program designed to create Intuitive Communicators capable of relaying messages from non-human intelligences. Sherman reveals chilling details from his time inside NSA facilities: retina scans, blue vans, and underground “black box” rooms where soldiers were dosed, monitored, and trained to think in frequencies. His story winds from his mother’s reported abductions to advanced DARPA research in noise-cancellation technology, scalar physics, and remote-viewing experiments that blur the line between consciousness and code. Please join our Substack (New!) American Alchemy Magazine ➤ https://substack.com/@americanalchemymagazine | Dan Sherman | Book➤ https://www.amazon.com/ABOVE-BLACK-Preserve-Insiders-Government/dp/B0D9YDT8M8/ref=tmm_aud_sw | Thanks To Our Sponsors | MUDWTR: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code [JESSE] at https://ambassadors.mudwtr.com/JESSE #mudwtrpod Qualia: Take control of your cellular health today. Go to https://qualialife.com/jesse and save 15% to experience the science of feeling younger. -------------------------- Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Merchandise ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] #NSA #AlienSignal #Contact #DanSherman Chapters 00:00 Intro 04:17 Above Black, “receiving” vs “downloading” 06:38 Chaotic childhood and early anomalies 08:55 SR-71 mentor and spark for patriotism 11:18 From Security Police to ELINT, Offutt AFB 13:43 NSA continuation course surprise detour 14:39 AD READ – Mudwater (energy without crash) 16:03 The black glass box at NSA Laurel 18:20 First classified briefing and retina access 20:44 Need-to-know culture, the onion layers 23:07 1960 alien-seeded program revealed 25:00 Mother’s abductions and “genetic management” 27:24 Tracking offspring into the military 29:47 Shock and silence, protocol over questions 34:53 AD READ – Cornbread CBD (dry January alt) 36:45 “Future event” mission for Intuitive Communicators 39:10 Blue van to secret school, elevator descent 41:37 Headphones, pills, and two consoles 46:21 The “click” – mind to screen becomes real 50:49 Belief versus physics in consciousness control 53:08 From tones to symbols and meaning layers 57:57 Carrier-wave model for consciousness signaling 1:01:05 AD READ – iRestore (laser cap) 1:07:18 Noise Cancellation Tech and DARPA ties 1:11:38 Scalar potentials and Hal Puthoff parallels 1:14:00 Remote viewing and time-agnostic perception 1:18:50 Overseas post and new black-site detachment 1:23:16 Dual vans and secret workstations 1:29:46 First live comms – numbers and patterns 1:36:49 Rocket failure vision test 1:39:16 “Spock” – logic, structure, alien mind 1:45:04 Permission to continue beyond protocol 1:47:29 “Around time” and solar portals 1:53:36 Alien consciousness and reverence for creation 1:56:14 Project Preserve Destiny’s EM focus 2:00:36 Psy-ops or genuine contact dilemma 2:06:08 Bone induction and psychotronic tech 2:12:54 Stigmata, sainthood, and EM contact 2:17:36 Arrival at Base 2 and renewed contact 2:24:12 “Bones,” creation, and alien design 2:31:10 Ancient relationship with humanity 2:36:04 Alien travel and EM propulsion 2:40:56 Confronting ethics of abduction reports 2:46:47 Childhood anomalies and EM sensitivity 2:56:59 Synesthesia and alien cognition 3:01:54 Threat calls after Howard Stern appearance 3:06:35 FOIA evidence and classification orders 3:15:22 Continuation of the program and disclosure 3:24:36 Hope, whistleblowers, and Star Trek morality Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And he said, I'm going to play a tone. And I want you to mentally hum that tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection. The line will change. When I saw the sineway move, I went, oh, okay, well, there's a mental disconnect there that's not supposed to be happening. That this is not possible.

Our guest today is an Air Force Sergeant who worked at the highest levels on classified projects in electronics and signals intelligence for the United States government. We have thorough documentation of his military records. His service is not something you can really argue with, nor is his mental health. This is the most nonchalant conversation I've ever had about alien telepathic communication. In this exclusive, long-form interview, retired technical sergeant Dan Sherman claims that While serving in the Air Force in the early 90s,

he was recruited for an extremely classified program at the NSA or National Security Agency. This program was called Project Preserve Destiny. Project Preserve Destiny's purpose to telepathically decode alien signals for the NSA. You heard me right. Alien signals that seem to telepathically transmit descriptions of alien abduction

across the United States. Alien signals that ultimately gave our very curious guest answers about the very nature of the alien presence on Earth, how these beings travel, how they conceive of time, what they think about humans, and much, much more. Dan Sherman was originally told by the Air Force Captain who read him into the program that he was given this telepathic ability by the aliens themselves when they abducted Sherman's pregnant mother in the early 1960s and altered his genetics while he was a fetus in her womb. This genetic blueprint would allow him to grow into what the NSA would dub an intuitive communicator. With the IC communication, you can feel it in your brain. You can feel, now you can't,

you can't localize it. It's not a localization, but I can feel like it's in that area of my brain right there. Sherman believes the NSA may even have tracked him since childhood into his young adulthood and military service until he was finally read into the program. Do you think that the NSA or Powers That Be know that this interview is happening? Because of the extremely sensitive nature of this NSA program and its ties to Black programs, Dan tries to abstain mentioning which basis this project preserved destiny was conducted at. But my researchers and I were able to locate

one of these bases, and I bring it up at the end of this interview, catching Sherman a bit off guard. Not only that, but at the end of this video, we explore an independent researcher's use of the Freedom of Information Act to learn more about Project Preserve Destiny. He sent a request to the government to see all of the files on it. As you'll see, both the Air Force and NSA's responses to his request are fairly telling. The point is the skeptics can have at it, but this case isn't going away. It's very hard to dismiss. I'd argue that Dan Sherman's story is one of the most important UFO legacy program-related accounts we have to contend with. So sit back, relax, and prepare to have your worldview crumble with this week's very courageous American

Alchemist, retired sergeant, intuitive alien communicator, and UFO whistleblower, Dan Sherman. Dan Sherman, thank you so much for being here. This, for me, is a dream come true and has been a long time coming. I've read your incredible book Above Black, and it documents an experience that, to me, is so fascinating. It's kind of in some ways high strangeness. It doesn't comport with a lot of the other stories. And so to me, that is like the perfect combo of, like, the perfect combo of, like,

like what I want to investigate because you seem like a really cool, lucid guy. And then you're talking about being an intuitive communicator, you know, downloading signals from aliens for the NSA. Yeah. Which is pretty amazing. Yeah. It is. And downloading is an interesting description, but it definitely was you couldn't see it. So it looked like it was downloading.

Or decrypting or I don't know. Yeah. Receiving. I'd like to say receiving. Receiving. Yeah. Okay. Why do you like to say that? Well, downloading kind of denotes some sort of machine or, you know, we associate downloading with bits and data. And it wasn't like that. It was just a thought. Yeah. It was a thought that came. So I just trying to keep it organic as opposed to machine related. And I know we got, you know, in the book, I talk about machines and how I interface with the computer. computer and all that. So there is a machine component in my training, but after that, it wasn't really much of a machine. Right. Well, why don't we take things back to your childhood? Where'd you grow up? Um, foo, grew up in a lot of places. Between kindergarten and 12th grade,

I went to 27 schools. 27 schools. What was the reason for that? We just moved a lot. my dad was a welder and we were very, very poor and just, you know, went with the wind. And, of course, I had step parents and I went to live with my grandma and my aunt. And, you know, there was a lot of broken home type situation too. So it was going from one place to another all the time. Wow. Yeah. But there was no sort of military brat type?

No, your dad was just a welder. Yeah. No, there was no military component. Interesting. And you, just even being here today, is sort of unlikely, right? Because your mother was having trouble giving birth for a long time, and you were kind of an anomaly? Yeah, the doctors, she had an accident when she was like 10 or 11. She fell off the tailgate of a pickup truck, and her social organs were messed up.

And the doctors basically said she'd never carry a baby to turn. And she had many miscarriages, but, I was only one that, I'd like to say I was only miscarriage that came, that was, that lived. Anyway, so it was definitely an interesting correlation, I guess, to the, to the story after I found out about, you know, what I found out about kind of correlated. It was like, well, maybe there was some protective angels there somehow. Yeah. Well, everybody listening now should put a pin in what you just said because.

We can't get ahead of ourselves, right? We can't. But there are some very interesting details to come about your mother. So what made you want to become Air Force Electronics and Intelligence? Well, we managed some horse stables in Yuba City, California, and we had a person who boarded their horse there, and he was a major in the Air Force. And he was an SR-71 pilot.

And, of course, that fascinated me. Here I am a fourth grader, you know, being able to interface with somebody who's been on the news, that met President Carter, you know, that he was like a hero to me. And we would talk, I remember conversations with him when we were watching his daughter ride the horse that they were boarding. He would tell me about flying in the Air Force. And as a kid, you know, you get enamored with stuff like that, and it stuck with me. And so I definitely wanted to. And I was very patriotic as well.

So I really wanted to do something in that realm, which is serving. So it kind of came all together when I was in high school. Were you interested in tech or electronics or signals or anything like that? I was always interested in technology. And of course, you know, in 1974 when I met him, technology was a color TV. You know, there wasn't really any technology per se, just science fiction and Star Trek. and, you know, all that stuff. So I was definitely interested in that.

But as time went on, yes, I became more and more interested when tech became more advanced. And I'm definitely a techie, definitely. Okay. So how long did you serve just generically? 12 years. Okay. 12 years. I was in the Air Force for 12 years.

Okay. And where were you stationed? I was stationed in Korea, Italy, Colorado, North Dakota, Nebraska, Nebraska, and, you. Texas for a while and I went TDIY, of course, temporary duty for my schooling, Fort Need at the NSA headquarters and Philippines and Japan. So I went a lot of places. To the crazy skeptics out there, would you be able to produce like a DD214 or like your service record? Yeah, I can't. The main point of asking about the DD214 thing is to the super skeptic that's out there. Oh yeah. You have a service record and there's really no way to deny that you were Air Force Electronics Intelligence at the

very least. Yeah, yeah. And so you get called to go to a school for electronics intelligence, like for like upgrading your skill set or something? When I went into the military, I went in as a security, uh, security policeman. I was, uh, just a police. And, and, um, at the time that I was taking the tests for the, uh, to get in, you know, the ASVAD tests and the things that they, you, they test you on to get you into the military and to also place you. They said that I qualified for every job in the Air Force, but I'd have to wait X amount of time if I wanted X job. And I didn't want to wait.

I was 18. I was out of the military or out of school and graduated. And I just wanted to go. So I said, just give me in any career field that you have available right now. So that was it. So I went in and then after about four or five years, I applied for a cross train. And that's when I was cross trained into E-Lent. Okay.

Can you say where you were based when you applied for the cross-training? Yeah, Montana. I was in Montana. And my first base as an E-Linter was in Offutt, Air Force Base in Omaha. Okay, got it. And so what is just for the audience. audience, basic context. What are you doing as an Eeyland Air Force officer? We had different collection platforms. You have satellite, you have aircraft, you have even

vehicles. We have collectors that collect enemy information. They collect the radio transmissions of border areas or even over a country. And we collect that electronic emissions. And then we, as the inlanders, we analyze all that electronic communications and what type of electronic emission it is, whether it radar or comms or even lasers and any type of emission that comes from a country, we kind of delineate and parse out what it is and then we look at it for intelligence value. And then if it does have, like let's say it's a TV station. Well, we know that. And so that's not intelligence value, although it could be intelligence value for other intelligence fields, but not us.

And so we look at the stuff that has to do with radars and military assets that are going to sense us as their enemy. So we need to build jamming packages that allow us to completely control the airspace. And we didn't build the jamming packages, but we gave them. them the parameters by which they looked at it. The jamming people looked at it and they built their packages based on what we gave them. Gotcha. And so what happens? You're based at Offit and you're told that you should go to some schooling? Well, I went to school initially for the career field in San Angelo, Texas. And then I became certified, you know, and became an E-Linter. And then that's when I

went to Offit. Well, I went to Offit before. But then just for a little bit, but then I went to school and then back to off it. And I was put up for going to a continuation course, which is called EA 280. You know, you become qualified. And then you got to do continuation courses to get you better qualified. And that was what EA 280 was. And that's what sent me to the NSA complex. And then when I got to, got there, they sprung this other thing on me.

and said you're going to be going to another school while you're here. I'm like, oh. So describe exactly what happened. So you go to the NSA complexes in Maryland. Is that right? Yeah, it's in Laurel, Maryland. There's a big, huge sprawling building there. Now, make sure everybody understands, this is 30 some years ago.

Now, since then, maybe they've changed things. I don't know. You know, I'm not up on locations, but we're talking circa 1990s, okay? At that time, there was a big, huge black building glass. building. It's called the, I think they called it the black box even, but it's the NSA headquarters building in Laurel. And that's where I went to get my security, well, actually, back up.

We went to a hotel and here's an interesting little thing. It has nothing to do with PPD, PPD, but this is a multi-service school. So they have Marines, they have Navy, Air Force. and an army. And so all four services are going in the same class. And so you have people coming from different bases, army bases, Navy bases. And this is the difference between the Air Force and everybody else.

The Air Force put us up on the two Air Force guys that were there. We got put up in Holiday Inn. And all the other services had to stay in dorms. And it was a contention, believe me. when the other services are, what? You're saying, what? Holiday Inn? He's like, well, you should have went in the Air Force, dude.

So anyway, we stayed at the holiday end, and then I got a call, a random call after I got there from the captain, and he said he needed meet with me. So he told me where to go at the NSA complex. I never really had a need to go to the NSA complex myself. until he told me that that was what I had to do. Because there's other buildings and outbuildings

and all kinds of stuff in that area of Maryland that NSA controls. And so you can just go to wherever that is for yours. You think you're here just for Air Force continuing education, but you're told that you have to go to the NSA complex and just, again, for the audience, basic contact. What is the NSA? National Security Agency.

it just it's basically in charge of all of the intelligence that that America does. All signals intelligence. Every intelligence. It's known as no such agency. Yeah, yeah. That's one of the jokes that they say. Why do you think it is so much, it's sort of less well known than like the CIA is like the proverbial, you know, archetypal intelligence agency?

Yeah. And then the NSA, you know, it's known as no such agency. It's like, you know, you hear rumors. of like mathematicians in Virginia or whatever, but you don't really know what's going on there. Cryptographers, you know, the CIA is a human asset, and they use,

they're very closely intertwined with the NSA because they use NSA assets, and NSA uses CIA's assets too. So it is, there's a, there's a synergy there, but the CIA is the face of collecting information from other countries. Foreign intelligence, yes.

That's kind of the face of it, but the underlying base of it is NSA. Okay. So you're here for Air Force, you're in Maryland for Air Force Continuing Education. Yeah. What are you thinking when you get called into this NSA? Well, it was, I thought it was in trouble.

I thought something, what did I do wrong? Do I feel something out wrong? Yeah. But here's the thing is you don't typically have an officer, a captain, calling you directly and talking to you. Right. Usually it's like some. you know, a sergeant or somewhere that's, that's giving you information if you need information

or calling you in for something. So it was, it was a little odd and a little out of character and or out of the ordinary. And so that, of course, got my mind racing, like, what is this? So I met him in the lobby of the NSA. He told me how to get there. And I don't know how to detail do you want, but he, we had to go through some security stuff. He had to sign me in because my security clearances weren't there yet. Yeah, yeah. My security clearances weren't there. So, and, and that was very common in the military, they have to transmit your security clearances to the next base or to your TDY base or class schooling or whatever. And so they weren't there yet. And he had to sign me in. He signed me in and we went in, went down the hallways and he led me to his office. And

he had um now everybody i understand this is 30 years ago so it's it's sometimes hard to remember exactly the uh the details and and probably the only reason i know as many details as i do know is because i wrote a book about it obviously yeah yeah exactly so i i've written them and i've said them in interviews and stuff but um and by the way this is the first interestingly enough every um person that i've talked to about this in the past like in a interview situation. It's always been a very, very canned type of situation where they would ask you a question. Yeah. I would answer. Ask me a question, answer. And edited, blah, blah, blah, you know, it was very, this is the first time, and that's one of the reasons why I want to do it is

because this is a podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's informal. It's wrong. You can just talk. Yes. And they, and people will also get a feel for an unedited Dan as opposed to, because the, the, The interviews in the past, they've been, for me anyway, I can't even watch them because they're so cringe. It's just. Well, you come off as reasonable in all. Well, okay, reasonable, but, but it seems very stilted because there's no conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's not a conversation. It's just. It's not a back and forth, natural back and forth. Exactly. But that, that form of journalism, I think, is dying. Oh, yeah. It's like a thing anymore. It's really see-through as fake.

It's kind of a boomer legacy thing. Yeah, thankfully. Thank you. Yeah. So where were we? I can't remember now. So you're in this office. Okay, so, yeah.

The different things that, like the technology and stuff, I remember that there was a retina scanner, but I can't remember if there was a retina scanner at his office. I don't think there was. I think it was just a cipher. Okay. The button ciphers. Anyway, so we get into his office,

and it's just like a normal, you know, there's a couch and a chair in front of his desk in like a cabinet that had some water on it or something like that. I think there was a sink. Anyway, we just sat there and he unveiled this mind-blowing thing to me. And, you know, I'm just a boy from Oregon that's as couldn't even imagine something like this happening to him. So what was the rank of this guy?

Captain. Captain. All my contacts for the project. for captains. So he's sitting down in front of you and what is he saying? Exactly. As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say mudwater has completely transformed my mornings. Back in the day, I used to struggle with that post-coffee crash and let's not even get into the caffeine jitters. Mudwater gave me the

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starter kit today. Right now, our listeners get an exclusive deal up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code Jesse. That's right, up to 43% off with code jesse at M-W-D-W-T-R.com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with mudwater because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. He's sitting down in front of you and what is he saying?

Exactly. He proceeded to tell me that I was part of a project that started in 1960, I believe it was, and that we, it's, the genesis of it was in 1947. We came in contact with an alien species. And in 1960, they started a project. It was called Project Preserved Destiny. and it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for.

And my mother was one of the selected targets or whatever you want to call it. And I was conceived in 63, so he said that, she was, she was abducted a couple of years before that. And, and I think that was for the testing and, and trying to get the, the right people, you know, to, to continue the program with. And so in 1963, when she was, when she was, um, uh, had me, you know, in term, um, they abducted her again. And they, uh, did the genetic management. that was his words, genetic management.

What that means, you know, is up to interpretation, I guess. But the result of it was that it gave me the ability to have this communications. It's amazing. So he's basically saying that mentions 1947, presumably the year of Roswell and a couple of other famous sightings, Kenneth Arnold and others. I have to put a caveat there. So in my memories of this, it's part. possible that I assigned that year. Okay.

It's possible. Sure. I don't know. I can't remember if he actually said it because I already knew about the 1940. I mean, everybody knows about the 37 Roswell thing. Yeah. So he could have alluded to that and I just assigned that year. Sure.

But he said, I'm positive that he said due to our communication or coming in contact with an alien species. And he might have said 15 years ago. he might have said, you know, a while ago, and then I assigned that, or he could have said 1940. So I can't remember. Appreciate your honesty and attention to detail. I want to make sure that that's kind of out there so that it, that it's not pigeonholed,

that I had this scientific memory that said that it was definitely that because I don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. And I want everybody in the audience, if you're 60 years enough to try to remember what happened to you, you know, 35 plus years ago. vivid detail and then, you know, report back if, you know, have you have any critiques for this? No, no, I really appreciate that.

So at some point, right, humanity or the U.S. came into contact with these. And I think he, I believe he does say gray alien beings. Well, that, I think that came, the gray. Later. Terminology came later. Okay. But with alien beings. And in 1960, this project begins where the aliens are given access, present.

presumably by the American federal government, to genetically... I would say that the government was given access. Okay. Because the aliens, they had access, whether we liked it or not. Okay. I would imagine. Okay. I mean, if you think about it.

Because so they did it in concert with the government, but I don't know who gave access to who. Sure. So maybe the abductions had been ongoing. Yeah, exactly. And all of a sudden the government is interested in developing these intuitive communicators, which you'll later become. And that involves altering the genetics of fetuses inside the womb of specific mothers, one of whom happened to be your mother. Yes. And they also chose it by demographics, too, because they knew that a certain percentage of offspring would want to go into the military, of course, so they could.

They could track that progression and to keep it tightly controlled because you can't, I mean, if somebody went off to be, you know, in some job, they couldn't control, then it would be useless. So they tried to demographically. And I would imagine many of the underprivileged and, you know, poor people were the ones that were, poor families were the ones that were selected. And mine was one of those, definitely. How are you feeling as he's telling you this? Well, I was, I believe I was fairly numb at first.

Like, you know, you're getting, you're getting information that is so unbelievable that you think, okay, this has got to be a joke or this is, you know, this is one of those hazing things, you know, when you go somewhere and sometimes they haze you because you're the new person or whatever. I mean, that did cross my mind, but in general terms, I was very numb to the situation until at the end, it started to gel like, you know, this is not a joke because he would have probably revealed it by now. And so, and, you know, I'm in the NSA complex. This is not some office and some base somewhere where they're, they can do that type of thing, you know, and joke with you. So it became real very, very, very quickly. What do you say back to him? Not a lot.

I think I tried to ask some questions, but he was very, very business-like as far as the revealing of information because he wasn't, I don't think he knew a lot, you know, to answer those questions. I think he knew exactly what he needed to do to get his job done, just as I only was fed the information that I need to get my job done. So that's very common in the classified world, it's need to know.

You know, if you have a need to know that, then you'll know it. But if you don't have a need to know, then you have no need to know that. And he describes the sort of compartmentalization of these programs a little bit more, right? He did. He went over the onion effect. He said that, you know, you have these different layers,

that are built in the military and in government in general, but definitely in military, where you have one layer hiding another layer. And of course, when you're at the official use only and unclassified aspects of things, there's not much of a layer, but when you get to the secret and the top secret and then black and then in our case and in the case of this,

the gray project. So one is designed to cover the other. and especially when you get up to the black and gray project, because when you have a gray project, obviously you need funding, you need all the logistics that go into running that, and you have to have a reason, you have to have a line out of it,

you have to have justification for manpower and funding and all that. So you do that because you have a black project that's co-located with it, And only a select few of the people in the Black Project know about the Great Project so that they can do their job and administer the great project. But all the funding, all the manpower like, you know, me going from one base to another, it's all under the auspices of the Black Project. So it's a lot because a lot of people, even in the UFO community, the proverbial thing is like above above top secret, which is, you know, Timothy Goods, famous. canonical UFO book. And you're paying homage to it with above black.

And you're saying that above programs that are by definition, black and off the books kind of, or off the books for the public, at least, you have these little cutouts that involve the alien presence, which is, that's a big claim. And why do you think he would tell you anything about the compartmentalization of it? Well, because I was a part of it. I was going to be a part of it. So at that time, I was not assigned.

to any black projects. I mean, I was just like anybody else in the world. I mean, I knew of the concept of stuff that is above top secret. I even read the book, probably. I would imagine I did, because I remember the name of it that you just mentioned. So it stands for reason that he would try to make me understand that this is just part of that process, and you are going to be going to a black project.

And that would be your cover, so to speak, for what you're going to be doing with the projects are destined. So he says that your mother in some way was genetically altered when she was giving birth to the fetus. So you were while inside of her in the early 60s. And that was in order for you to become an intuitive communicator who is basically able to receive messages from alien. Receive and transmit.

Receive and transmit. Yeah. Yeah. Communicate basically, back and forth. And he's telling you all of this? Yeah. He said that that's what my job would be doing. That's what my job would be to do that, yes.

And then so at that point, you know, are you saying like, why are you telling me this? Is there like a follow up here? Am I supposed to, you know? I mean, when you're told this, it's, it's, you're being, your mind is being bombarded with such a, a radical situation that you don't, well, and also in the context of being a military, too, we have military protocol that, you know, we don't ask a lot of questions in the military. You know, you, you're being told what to do, and then you do it. You're actually trained not to ask questions or not to give any type of pushback or anything.

You just, yep, yes, sir, yes, sir, that's what we're going to do. Yes, sir, yes, sir. So in that context, it doesn't, I mean, it may seem like somebody, you know, Joe Blow may seem like, well, if I was told that, I'd be all up in arms. What's going on? But you don't think like that when you're an airman or, you know, a sergeant. You just think, okay, this is the mission and we're going to go forward. Does he say anything about the purpose of Project Preserve Destiny and why intuitive communicators are needed in the first place? Yes. Yeah. He said, he said, he said, that it was due to some future event. And again, he said this is what I've been told. So it wasn't like he's just a conduit for whatever he's being told.

So there are levels of need-to-know access and compartmentalization. And so he told me that there would be some future event where the ability to intuitively communicate would help the military and help, you know, command and control and all that. You didn't get into details on it, but he just said that, because, I mean, the training itself was centered around communicating stuff like that, like logistics and things like that.

So he was setting me up for what type of communications would I be trained for, and then he said, it's for a future thing that we know is going to happen and you're going to be one of the communicating aspects of that future event you'll be allowed or you'll be relied upon to do that was it like a cataclysmic event or like you didn't say anything it didn't say anything about the the nature of it at all but there was some need to have these intuitive communicators on a go forward basis the future event thing he said in the future and maybe even the event, that word event, maybe that was something that I put in there.

I don't actually recall, but that was my impression that there would be some event in the future that it would be needed. So what happens next? We went to the school. He took me in a van to the school. And it could have been me coming back to the facility and then meeting him again. I don't really remember though. but we took a van from the facility.

It was a blue, unmarked van that had black windows. It drove to the school that I would be having the instruction at and couldn't see where we were going at all. I mean, that was part of the secrecy of it, obviously, is I didn't know where the school was. And so we went, got out in a garage or, room of some, it wasn't really a, I don't know what it was. It was just, it was an interior of a cement building. I don't know if it was a garage or a part of an annex of a building, but it was just cement

all around us and the blue van parked and we got out and 10, about 10, 2015 feet in front of the van doors that we got out was a door. It had a palm, reader, I believe, and it might have had a written scanner. I know the interior one had a retina scanner. We opened the door, went into a vestibule. That was the door to the elevator. We got in an elevator after doing the hand scan again. I think it was the opposite hand to the next time. And then went down. I could feel it was going down, obviously. There was only one button in the elevator. That was it. Just start, basically. the doors opened on the other side of the elevator

and we went into a room that had two consoles in it, two computer consoles and a table in the middle. And he told me, you know, the kind of logistics of the van would pick me up at my hotel. I would go through Eeylint School and then I think they gave me like half hour, 45 minutes.

I can't remember exactly. at the time. But a short while after I got back from the Eeyland School, they would pick me up in the blue van would be right there in front of the, in the pickup area, the Holiday Inn. And I would get in the van, and he would drive me to the school, and I would do exactly what we just did, which is get out of the van, go to the door. All my information would be in the scanners, and just go down and go to my console and put on the headphones and sit there. And that, That would be my task every time. And what are they telling you to do when you're sitting there with headphones on?

You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show? Lately, I've been thinking a lot about aging, not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slow recovery, lower energy, that middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That's why I started using something called qualia senolytic, and it's been a amazing. major shift for me. Let me explain. As we age, our bodies accumulate what scientists call senescent cells, also known as zombie cells. These are worn out cells that stop dividing,

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J-E-S-E for an additional 15% off. That's Q-U-A-L-I-A-L-I-E dot com slash Jesse J-E-S-E for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. And what are they telling you to do when you're sitting there with headphones on? Well, the instructor was through the headphones. he just said put on the headphones and you'll you'll be told what to do when we after you put the headphones on through the headphones. And so, and he told me also there would be some pills that I would take.

So he showed me the pills and he said they'll be right here on the table. And he told me also that there would be another student in the school at the same time. That's why there were two consoles. And he said, you're never to speak with each other. Not even a grunt. Nothing. Just you both come to your, your console is going to be this one.

And that's it. No, no talking. Um, and I did finally see that guy. And we came about the same time. Never at the exact same time, but around the same time.

And, um, never said word to one another. Took the medicine or, uh, he told me about the medicine, where it would be, um,

um, it was, It was very cut and dry. I mean, there wasn't a lot to it. We just had to get in the van and come here and do exactly what we just did. And so you basically had no idea where you were going in the van. No. And you're in this extremely nondescript building.

You just see the inside. Well, I assume it was a building. I mean, I don't know if we went down. It almost sounds like maybe it's underground. Yeah. Well, I know the school, the consoles were, I'm positive that. Yeah. But, well, I guess maybe not positive because we could have gone up in.

to a building and then gone down. Sure. Who knows? But we did go down, so I assume it's underground. And I don't, I think the building was ground level too, because I don't remember going up any, you know, inclines or down or any of that. So it was ground level. Meaning that the school was probably underground. The school itself was under a building that was on ground. And I believe also you were talking about the intense secrecy, the captain who you call Captain White in the book who briefed you initially said you're not to speak about this with anybody

unless they're involved in Project Preserved Descent. Yeah. There would, he told me there would be a pass-off. So, or an introduction or I can't remember the terminology used, but somebody would be, he would introduce me to somebody when I needed to do it in the future if I went to another, or when I went to another base. So he was my contact for there. And then I would get another contact at another location.

and whatever location I was at, I would always be introduced by the previous contact. So I would never have any need to go up to somebody and say, are you or none of that? They would come to you. Yeah, yeah, it would always be. It's like a Lec-Rae book or something. It's like a spy thriller.

It's like you'll be greeted by a man. Yeah, yeah. I'd call you at this telephone booth or so. So, so I understand. Okay, so it's very cloaked at. And it was a telephone at one introduction. Really? Yeah.

It was like me at a telephone booth or something? No, it was a, I got a call. In a public telephone booth? Well, it wasn't public. It was the dorm, the dorm that I was living in. Okay. At the first base that I went to, I was living in a dorm, and there was a, like, a dorm phone, so it was in the hallway.

And so somebody came and said, you have a phone call. So I got it. And so he told me, and that was Captain White, and he told me that, the name of the next person and that I would meet them at such and such time, and he would have his arms folded in front of the facility, and that's who it was. That is arms? Yeah. So, I mean, I know that's probably silly, but he did say that that he would have his arms for it.

And he was the only person there, so it wasn't like I was going to mistake him for one of the other million people that were in front of. But maybe that was somewhat of a signal to just confirm that that was the right contact. Okay, so you're back at this initial Project Preserve Destiny School, and this is in Maryland. It's presumably near the NSA complex when you get briefed. Yeah. And you're underground, you have your headphones on. What instructions do you get through the headphones?

So initially, it was a very, very rudimentary. There were LED boxes on the computer screen in front of me, and they were green. and it was like a sine wave. It was like this, like a, it's a typical, I don't know if people know what a sine wave is. Sign wave looks like a sideways S. Yeah, yeah, exactly, with a green line going through the middle. And so I would have 10 of those boxes in front of me on the computer screen.

And he said, for now, initially anyway, he said, I just want you, I'm going to play a tone, and I want you to mentally hum that tone. Don't autobilize it, just mentally. do it. Don't use your vocal chords in any way, shape, or form. Just mentally hum that note or that, yeah, that note. And so, that's what I did for days, a few days at least. And, and it was torture. It was basically torture. Just listening to one tone and mentally and humming it. How many hours? I can't remember, but it was, it was probably a couple days. And each class, you know, was like three, four hours in the afternoon, evening, early.

That sounds like Chinese water torture. It does. Excruciating. I would definitely ascribe that term. Were you allowed to take breaks? I did get breaks like 10 minutes every hour, just like your normal work, you know, break type thing. Because I think in the book you say you couldn't go to the bathroom during the blocks. I could not go to the bathroom, which was a problem sometimes.

I don't think I ever did anything in my pants, but it was close. And I also was also very paranoid about going, before going, I would always be on the toilet. Like, you know, definitely before I went because I definitely did not want to have a problem. And I think that's a young person's game too because now I'd be like, no, no, no. I got to have a break. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to have a bathroom. Anyway, so it was a mentally hummed tone, and then he told me to concentrate on the first box while I was doing it.

So I would look for, like a, he said look for movement in the box, on the sine wave of the first box. And so I would look at that box and just stare at that box and mentally hum the tone. and he said that you will eventually feel a connection between your mental and your visual, you'll feel a connection that is represented in the box. So the line will change with your, you know, this thing that you're doing with your mind, which is a mental hum. And so when I say in the book that it clicked,

and that's kind of the only thing that I could really put human language to. Sure. It wasn't an audible click or it wasn't like a, you know, physical click. But it's like when you're focused in a camera, you know, it's really out of focus and you're turning and turn it and you go, you know, It just focused right on it. And that's what it felt like with the visual and the mental aspect of looking at the box. When I saw the signway move, it is like it came into focus, this thing that I was doing in my head.

And then I could assign that what I just did. I could assign that to what I was doing visually or seeing visually. And I went, oh, okay, well, I was excited. Of course, I nearly jumped out of my. My seat when it first did it, I couldn't believe it because at this point I was like really seriously giving up. I was like, this is, this is bullshit. This is not going to happen.

And so when it did happen, it was pretty exciting. Well, you must be thinking, too, before the clicking happened, that this isn't how physics works, right? Like in your head, you grow up in the U.S. learning or in anywhere, learning that there's some sort of hard separation between mind and matter. Yeah, yeah. And you can hum as much as you want internally to try to match or resonate with some external tone you're hearing.

But the idea that that, you know, tone is represented on a screen and you could somehow affect that representation with your mind to most people would be beyond the pale. I did, I did, for a short period of time, think that maybe there was a connection between the headphones. Okay. And the computer. Some sort of electromagnetic. Well, because the headphones weren't wireless.

They had a wire and it went into the cabinet. And so, you know, I did, I mean, I gave that a lot of thought. Like, you know, but that, of course, was proved wrong later on because I didn't have headphones later on when I was doing the actual communication. So, but yes, you're right. There's a disconnect. There's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening. This is not possible. to happen. So yeah, it was definitely interesting. So when you say it clicked, and I realized that's the

best way you can sort of describe it, do you then sense, oh my God, this sort of, you know, wave that's going, the sine wave, I now have mental control over it. Is that the feeling you get? Yeah, yeah. It was, well, and it was, I couldn't really do anything with it because I didn't really know what to do with it. But I could definitely affect the motion and I could do it just at will. Like I could at first the sign, you know, the sineway was like this and it would go like this. You know, the two lobes of the sineway would go like this in harmony with one another. That was the clicking aspect. And then later on, I mean, the whole thing would just like this. You know, when you're actually doing, doing, when you're practicing the visual and audio, um, um,

feedback, you know, that it was giving me. I would, I would do the communications or whatever, the, the, the I see aspect of what I was doing. It would, it would actually do this with the sine wave. So at some point, I just didn't even pay attention at the sign wave. I was just, I was just doing the, what he was telling me to do. And I see is intuitive communications. And so you're, you're, you're seeing it almost like, or like, you know, oscillate different. That's so fascinating. Yeah.

And then, okay, so you like walk in, you have this, like, connection between you and the sine wave. And then, do you have a goal? Are you trying to, like, get the sine wave to do something? Yeah, he was just telling me, we did the first sine wave, and then he would feed another note, and I would have to concentrate on the second sign wave, and then the third sign wave, until I got all of them to click. And that was the kind of the overriding goal.

And then they started to see me numbers and describing things. And what I was interpreting when I was doing the boxes, it would start to, I could associate certain concepts and numbers and colors and letters and things like that with the actual boxes and the different movements of the sineways. So it was intuitive in the sense that, because it really was intuitive in that when I started unlocking all these things, it became intuitively aware in my mind how to do that stuff. So I intuitively knew how to do it. That's why they, I think they call it intuitive communication, because once your mind was unlocked with that ability, it intuitively did that. Yeah.

Intuitively was able to communicate whatever it needed to communicate. So you have a bunch of boxes with sine waves in them, and then you're somehow associating the movements of the sine waves. The clicking was the only really thing that I was associating. That was the tool by which we could do the clicking, or, you know, to unlock that particular tone and that ability to intuitively communicate at that, whatever they called.

I don't even know what they called it at whatever levels those were. To me, it was just a note, but to whoever was teaching me, it could have been another attribution. Somehow it was meant something to them, but it didn't mean to me. Is the tone that you're listening to changing it all? Yeah, it is. The tones were different notes for each box. Okay, got it.

It was 10 notes. I don't know what notes they were, but they were 10 nodes. And did the sine wave change based on the notes? No, it was just the clicking. The sine wave itself would move based on that. I had 10 boxes. One was one note, one was another note, one was another note, one was another note for the clicking aspect. And then my mind was picking up on when they would feed me information like a description of something.

My mind would think in those terms and feedback. something. Now, I don't know what that feedback was and how, because they were monitoring that on the other side, they were, they were trying to see whether it fit, whatever it was supposed to fit in those boxes. It wasn't, my aspect of it was very one-sided. I was just there to unlock what was going on in my head. And we did that through the clicking. But then the feeding of the information of stuff was my ability, they were testing my ability, as a, my mind's ability to to convey that in these in this type of language or communication or whatever you want to call it. And so it really didn't come all together until I actually started

the communications with the with the aliens. It was it was unlocked. I could tell it was unlocked obviously because I was moving boxes and stuff. The box didn't mean anything to me at some point after I clicked with all of them, but the communications itself was when I really realized, oh, this is how it works. This is why it's why it is what it is, why we're doing this. So you have 10 boxes,

each of which represent a note, so to speak. For the clicking, yeah. You have sign waves within each box. And you're trying to lock in or click into each box and you end up getting them all and sort of interfacing with all of that. But once I started feeding me information, and I was supposed to intuitively communicate that back into wherever it was going or wherever it was going, then I would see boxes just going, just doing all kinds of stuff. But I didn't correlate that with anything. They were just moving.

Presumably, and maybe this is taking a leap here, they are kind of pattern matching. signals that you're emitting by thinking of certain things. So you have a certain semantic thought, like a school bus or something, and then they get a certain pattern. And then they're doing some pattern matching, right? I think, yeah, presumably. I think the pattern or the, this was just an, the 10 boxes were just a manifestation of what was going on.

But I don't think they were actually using the boxes. They had their own way. But it was just allowing me to see, it kind of gave me confidence or whatever. it was kind of a visual for me. So it was feedback for you that you were locked into the sineways. Yeah, exactly. But they had something on the back end that's matching symbolic concepts that you're thinking of. Yep.

In this plane that is being unlocked. In this plane that's being unlocked. Yeah. Fascinating. So like you think of like a car and like they have some sort of signals presumably that they're going. And the intuitive communications, I would think like, I think now, just like you think, but I would do it in this kind of level of the brain that was doing what was doing here, that mental humming. Yeah.

That unlocked something in my brain that was allowing it to be on that level or playing or whatever you want to call it instead of talking, you know, through the vocal cords and or even thinking. Yeah. Thinking is a level of intent. I mean, or a... It's an abstract. It's an aspect. of the way our minds work, but this was a different,

a different modality. I'm not exactly sure what word to put it to it, but, but, and it was unlocked through that, that. Well, it almost feels like they were attempting to read a level of your thoughts that exist below symbolic, abstract, you know, interpretation. Or above, yeah. Or above, but I, yeah, I would think maybe below, like, because, yeah, well, I don't know, but like,

You know, if you have, like language is very kind of high level and symbolic, ultimately. And you're locking on to these sine wave frequencies. I would assume, you know, if you have in computer science, you have the bit layer, and then you have a higher level symbolic languages, and then you have like abstract representations of, you know, you have icons on your computer screen ultimately and stuff like that. I would think that language is more like the icons in your computer screens. on your computer screens,

and then there's probably some lower level of thought, like some memetic thing of, you know, thinking of forms and shapes and that sort of thing. And this is like another way to transmit that. Well, the way I kind of thought about it as the years went on and I, you know, would think about stuff like this. In Eland, we had a carrier wave, you know,

which was the power of the transmission. But then it was encoded, encoded is in the word, but I'll use that, encoded, the information is encoded on that power wave. So our ability to communicate, talk, and think, that's a power wave. And then I put this, the I see ability as a different way to encode information on that power wave. and it and but it's still the power that's emanating from our being you know we're alive and we have power we have we have uh energy emanating from us and we are the carrier wave but the encoding of information is done through our vocal cords and through our eyes and through our mind but this was a higher level of encoding of that of that energy interesting that's kind of how i've

thought about it over the years. I feel like we're saying the same thing. Yeah, probably. You're told that you need to be taking pills every day you're doing this? Yeah. It's two pills, is that right? Initially, it was two pills in the school. What do they taste like?

They didn't have any taste. Did you ask, hey, why do you have to take these pills? I did ask, and, you know, as usual, it was like, well, that's just what we have to do. Okay. I wasn't told why. And it wasn't like, it wasn't, it wasn't a one-for-one type of situation, too, because sometimes I would forget to take it. There were a few days when I would come back and go, oh, man, I didn't take that, I forgot to

take those. And I, later on, I was, I think it was one pill that I had to take later on. And sometimes I'd forget to take that too. So it wasn't like it was, take pill, could do it. didn't take pill, couldn't do it. It wasn't like that. I think it was just, I think they were just experimenting with it. Sure.

Some sort of maybe intuitive communicator supplement, so to speak, I don't know. I mean, there are presumably parts of the brain that enhance the stuff and ones that, yeah, heard it maybe or impede it. And that part of the goal for you was like flattening the sine wave, right? So it was getting the sine wave to basically the amplitude to lower into the sort of center of the box. And that was just a concentration exercise, I think, on the actual note. Because I would, first I clicked it, and so that was the clicking, and it would move. And then I was instructed to move it further, you know, to move that note, but do it further. And so that was the feedback I was getting, the visual feedback.

I could kind of correlate it with what I was doing in my mind. And so I could get a stronger, a more focused maybe of that note. And I only say note because at some point the note went away and I could just, I just did that box. But, um. So that's it like the note was almost priming you for a particular box. Yeah. And then I didn't need the note.

It was just that box was in my mind. Because you had the internal humming going on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, that was, that was only to unlock that, that, that, feature or whatever you want to call it because the note went away and even my humming I didn't have to do any of that interesting yeah it was and once you were locked in with the particular box you were good yeah yeah yeah and and then i the flattening was an intensity type

of situation where you you could and i don't think that had anything to do with the actual communications itself it just was an exercise it's like lift weightlifting you know you put more on it and put more weights on it until you get stronger and stronger in that box. This is so wild, though, because it implies that the NSA has this whole protocol, this whole, like, other language that they've developed, which, you know, in cryptography or whatever, maybe they have in some sense on the computer science layer. But this is like a human, intuitive, psychic language that the NSA has proprietary access. But I don't think the NSA, I think they administer it, but I don't think they,

unless you have an alien and an IC person doing it, I don't think none of them can do it. Got it. Or at least at the time, maybe now they do? I don't know. But that's even crazier, right? Because that's almost implying that aliens coordinated with them to give humans the conventions through which, like, you could even lock on to this stuff. Like aliens were deeply involved in this program or something.

They had to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's either that or they have this prodigit, this like insane sort of psychic conventional language that they've created, like the NSA, I mean, it's one or the other. I don't know if, because I think it's a biological thing. So anything biological would have to, I mean, I guess it could be engineered at some point, you know, with the technology that we have today. Sure. It could be engine. Neurlink has a patent on psychic communication, on telepathic

communications. But that's like now, right? We're like looking into that. And I do believe. believe the narrative that things have existed in the black and then they sometimes are exfiltrated or they're like cover private companies that are actually far behind what's in the black that's fine but there's an actual aspect of that in the story too with the white van but that's right I guess we'll go over that well why don't we now so so so you're taken to this facility in this kind of you know nondescript blue van and then you see a I saw headlights one time or lights lights lights in the building that were not there typically and And so I was like, what's going on?

So I looked over the left, and I could see lights shining on the wall that was in front of the blue van, but over a little bit further to over on the other side of the van. So I was obviously curious. And so I didn't want to go into the front of the van because it's a driver. You know, for some reason, this driver had this mythical monster imagery in my head because I could never talk to him. I never knew who it was, so I didn't want to get in his bad side. So I went to the back of the van, and I looked around, and I saw the bumper of a white van. It was a white van on the other side of the blue van, and that's what had the headlights on.

And as soon as I got back there, he honked his horn. The blue van haunted his horn. I was like, oh, okay, never mind. I'm going to my door. Thank you. Don't eat me or do whatever you're going to do. and so I saw that white van and later on,

I don't know how much later, days maybe, I was taking an exit to get to the hotel in Maryland there and I was turning right and I saw a white van turning left at that exit and I thought there's no possible way this could be the same van. But, you know, in the area and, you know, who knows, right?

So I, but then I remembered, I remembered, actually, when I saw the van, I remembered it, not only then, but I remembered it when I saw the van, I was like, that has a dent. It was an identifying feature. And so I looked at it, I looked at the white van that I saw at the exit, and sure enough, it had that same exact dent. So I was like, what do I do? Do I, do I, um, I had to follow it. I mean, there's just no possible way.

I was too curious. So I kind of nudged it over. I put my sink blinker on, and I nudged over to follow that van. And I went to a company called... What's up, guys? One of today's sponsors is us, American Alchemy. We just launched what I think is maybe the coolest merch line in the world.

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A little cow is getting abducted by the UFO in the background. And then you know that I love mid-century history, specifically. Spooky Science Atomic Era stuff. And so we have our Atomic Age T here. Pretty cool vibe. You got a robot serving this guy. A little martin. and then a UFO off to the side.

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Noise Cancelation Technology, N-C-T. That's the name of the company, I believe this, they went by the initials. And I was like, okay, well, there's some sort of interesting little correlation there. More corroboration for Dan Sherman's story exists around this company he followed this mysterious second van into, NCT, or noise cancellation technologies. Noise cancellation technologies incorporated is on record having had multiple contracts with government and military organizations. In June of 1991, the Washington Post reported that noise cancellation technologies incorporated

in Lynthicum, Maryland, won a $210,000 contract from DARPA, or the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency for Research and Development. Well, 1991 was exactly when Dan Sherman was getting trained as an intuitive communicator by Project Preserve Destiny, and Lynthicum, Maryland is right by where he was stationed getting trained by the NSA. All of this was also a very short drive to Fort Meade, where the government historically has run its psychic spy program. But I'm sure all of these are just coincidences.

Noise cancellation technology's military ties run even deeper. The company is referenced in an Office of Naval Research Bulletin about acoustics research in Europe, and they've been publicly involved in further NASA and Army-funded research. According to the company's own website, NCT is a leading technology company dedicated to the development and commercialization of active wave management applications, the electronic manipulation of sound signal waves to reduce noise, improve signal to noise ratios, and enhance sound quality. All sounds like stuff that could be pretty relevant to what a young sergeant Dan Sherman was doing for the NSA. Very interesting. Yeah, yeah. Because he was in the same

garage. Now, I don't know what the, I don't know what the exact correlation is. Well, and it makes total sense, you're wearing headphones, they're doing something with kind of exotic communications. It's not one that you are making up. There's there's corroboration of them working with the government and other contracts outside of this possible NSA collaborative. Well, and they could be also doing a black project that's covering a great project. So it's, I mean, there's high likelihood that that's true because I saw, I mean, I correlated the two. Yeah, and you even talk about you've hypothesized that exotic propulsion might involve noise cancellation in some way. I mean, there are all sorts of things that, you know,

electromagnetic energy is, it's an amazing phenomenon. I agree. It's funny. In and around the whole alien UFO space, you get a lot of like Lockheed Martin executives, like saying weird things. Like, all you need is Maxwell's equations and you change a thing or two and you're all good, like implying that general relativity, Einstein, even, you know, quantum mechanics in some ways are, like, way less important than Maxwell,

which governs all of electromagnetism for things like exotic propulsion. Yeah. Yeah. It's very powerful. And yeah, there are even, there are fields of like extended electrodynamics. I don't know if you've ever heard of extended electrodynamics. Is that something that's ever come across here? It is. I've heard it. Yeah. So it's this idea that, you know, obviously in traditional electromagnism, you have a transverse hertsy in a way, So you have, you know, a B field, an E field, electric field, a magnetic field, which are perpendicular to one another, and then perpendicular as well as wave propagation. And that's like pretty much all you can do, right?

But that limits you, like for under C communications, you get electrons pairing off because of the presence of magnetic field. You know, obviously deep space communications are going to be hard. It's going to decay at one over R squared. And this is this idea that actually this Navy whistleblower came out on my show that's described. A couple of how put-off has patents in this area and extended electrodynamics, that there are exotic wave types in what's called a scalar field where wave propagation might occur at one over R instead of one over R squared.

So they attenuate way less over long distances in space time. Without increasing power? What's that? Without increasing power. And so it would unlock all sorts of crazy, crazy things, if true. And how put-off's this really interesting character in all of this, because he obviously ran the CIA's psychic spy program. And I've asked him, point blank,

do you think psychic communication is occurring along the lines of this extended electrodynamics where you have patents? And he's said to me, yeah, I do think that's the case. That's fascinating. Isn't that fascinating? I find that so interesting. And he's using these Josephson Junction, you know, quantum receivers, basically. So it's these, you know, vector and scalar potentials in the subquantum field that are doing the communications.

So this is absolutely mind-blowing. And it makes sense, right? Because, like, you look at the early Stargate experiments, you look at the stuff, you know, we're going to get into with you. they would put remote viewers, you know, in submarines and put them at the bottom of the ocean. And they would have the exact same, you know, all this stuff seems to be agnostic of both space and time. They'd get the exact same results in efficacy when it came to remote viewing. And so it would make sense that you'd have some exotic electromagnetic communication ability that... Yeah, that's mind-boggling.

Okay, so you're at this school and you're going every day. and you're in this van, and you've tracked down this other van, are you still, whatever happened to Electronics Intelligence School, the Air Force continuing education thing that you were supposed to do? Well, I had to do that during the day. Okay. I was doing that for, you know, seven, eight hours. And then I would come back to the hotel and have a little break,

and then I would get picked up again by the van. So anybody say, hey, Dan, you want to, you know, go out tonight, grab a drink or something? Oh, yeah, what would you have to say? I was the loner. You know, I was always the one that was, no, no, I'm good. I'm in the room. I'm a little tired.

Yeah, yeah. And I did get asked several times. They would ask me, where are you going? Because you're not in your room and your car's here. Where are you going? And I always had some sort of excuse. Like I met a girl or, you know, we went out and, you know, she drove. And that's true of anybody that's in these types of things is it doesn't comport with

reality with with with your real life so you have to create this alternative universe sometimes where you have to exist in that universe too with other people and like nobody at any of my my bases they they didn't know what was going on either and i mean i can't remember specific examples but i'm sure that i had to come up with some BS when something didn't exactly gel with what was supposed to be going on, like in the van. So that is just the life of somebody who is in that type of situation. And you were given a code, right, for Project Preserve Destiny? Like you had a code name or something?

Oh, Staunch. Yeah, Staunch 118. Stanch 118. Yeah. Okay. And that was on the computer screen when I would open up the dialogue box. I would have to choose Staunch 118. And so how long does your schooling last and what happens? I think it was three months. Okay.

Yeah, I believe that. And no alien direct communication during the schooling. You're just told to flatten these weeks. Okay. And so what happens next? I go back to my base that I was stationed at the time and just went back to my E-Lint job doing stuff. And then I'm not exactly sure how long it was, but several months. went by and I finally got orders to my first PPD base, which was overseas.

And then I went to that base and I was there for, again, my security clearances weren't there yet. So I was kind of in this limbo state. And they finally came. And then I got a phone call, like we mentioned earlier, somebody knocked on my door and said, somebody wants you on the phone, the dorm phone. It was outdoors, too. It was in a warm climate. And so there were outdoor hallways. And so I would have to go around the building, and the phone was on the outside there.

And so anyway, picked it up, and it was Captain White, my first contact officer, and he said, you're going to be, he told me the name. of my next contact, which happened to be my unit commander, which kind of makes sense, because I think he was the only captain there in our vision or in our little area. And so he told me his name and that he'll be crossing his arms. I already knew who he was. I don't know why this was all so cloak and dagger, because all he had to say was it's your unit commander.

You can just go talk to him. But anyway, they did all the crossing arms and stuff. And so he told me when to meet him and he'll be out front. And so I went and at that time and did it. I met him. And he took me into the facility. The facility that I worked, it was a base that was kind of had one mission, but we had this little detachment that was part of the base.

on base, but we had our own little security system, fences, the whole nine yards, because it was way more classified than anything going on in the base. And so it has its own guard check and its own requirements to go through and all that, and its own security systems in the buildings and all. So we went in, he brought me into a conference room, and I was there with another person that was from my base, the other base, we just so happened that we got a sign there together, and we were going through the same indoctrination

for our job and all that. And so he was there too, and a couple other people too. And so we were being indoctrinated into the program, into the black project that we were in. And then, as I recall, I think the captain took me aside

somebody they took other people for a tour of the facility and the captain said I'm going to take Dan and so that's when he brought me into well we talked in the conference room first and he told me we talked about the

program and just you know small talk about the program you went to school and oh great you got certified and you're going to be in him to a communicator. And that's cool, you know, just had this little banter. And then he took me into the one of the, we call him the C vans. See us for communication, but you don't have to have a communication in the C van.

It's just a C van. That's what they call them. And so we had several C vans on site, and one was our particular part of the Black Project. and so he took me in there. It's a two-person van for security reasons. There always has to be two people in the van at all times other than a little bit of bathroom break here and there. And I asked about the other aspect of my job, the Black Project. He said, don't worry about that.

You'll be other people will talk to you about that. I'm going to talk to you about the Gray Project. And so he showed me how to open the screen. screen and I already knew how to do all this from the previous time, but he maybe thought I didn't. I don't know or he didn't know that it was the same system, but he showed me how to bring up the box, the communications box, and just went over the logistics of it, you know, how I would be with this other guy, but we couldn't intermingle as far as, you know, he didn't know about this. And we had what was called left seat and right seat, seemed like, you know, for pilots.

You know, they have the left seat and the right seat. We had that too. The left seat was the different aspect of the black job, black project job. And mine, the right seat was another aspect of the black project. But then also mine was a great project. And in my computer, I had that thing that I could open up the dialog box. And he said, I asked him, you know, when is it going to start? Do you know when I'm going to start communicating or, you know, he knew nothing.

He's like, all I know is this is your box. This is your man. That's crazy. And that's all I know. So you're sitting across from a guy who's doing normal, classified electronics intelligence. You're sitting next to a guy who's doing traditional conventional electronics intelligence work. And I was too. And you were as well.

But then you had this other thing that you're doing around intuitive communication. Yeah. And that guy has no idea what you're doing. No, no. And the guy who's briefing you, who presumably Captain White told you about, he knows very little in some ways. Like he's giving you... He's just the administrator.

He doesn't know. Did you ever try to kind of cross-check? Because I'm sure along the way, you're trying to suss this project out, you know, throughout. Not the time. Okay. No. You were just taking orders. Yeah, exactly.

Did you ever try... And you have to remember also, this is before the Internet, before, you know, you're just isolated, basically. You're intellectually isolated. You're just following orders and that's it. Today, I could just get on Google and go, you know, do all kinds of research about stuff, but I couldn't back then. Did you ever try to just see if this other, you know, Air Force officer, captain who's dealing with PPD at this, or Project Preserve Destiny at this overseas base, if his answers coincided with what you were told initially by Captain White to see, you know, could kind of. cross-check. Well, they were all coincided. They did. Yeah, everything was the same. Okay. Yeah. So it wasn't like, because yeah, if I were you, I'd be like, well, maybe I am getting

hazed and I'd try to poke and, like, ask person B, the same questions I asked person A and see if their answers were the same. My intentions were not as devious as that. Fair enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just was wide-eyed and bushy-tailed. That's all. I was just following orders. But from your experience, the answers were mostly the same. It felt, very coherent. Yeah, definitely. I mean, and they knew so very little that it was very easy to be coherent because there was not much to it, you know.

And this is actually, I think you said at the book, this guy's name was Sergeant Larson. Is that right? No, it was a captain. I think the Larson was a sergeant. He was in the room with us, but he wasn't involved with them. But I believe, I believe from your book, you asked Sergeant Larson some questions about the secrecy, and he went into the. onion stuff, but he didn't say the gray black.

Oh, yeah. He didn't talk about the gray black. During our black introduction, he went into the onion thing, yeah. Which was, which, to me is interesting because it was like he was holding back the idea that the gray projects are concealed within the black projects. He didn't know. Okay. Interesting.

Yeah, he only went up to the black project because he probably got a, at some point, a speech about onion, the onion aspect, but only to the black. Yeah. layer, so to speak. Because in your book, you're thinking, like, you know, I know something you don't know or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.

That's true. Okay, so you are sitting at this sort of terminal. Does it look basically the same as, you know, the NSA complex that you were in? I can't remember, but they, I think they all had about the same. Like the basic? Yeah, these big sun are Spark. I think there's Spark monitors.

Okay. Yeah. I don't even know that brand's, yeah. It was back then, you know, monitors were this big and wide, you know, big. And the screen was only about that big. So when we had these big spark monitors, everybody's like, you know, anybody that look at it and not familiar, like, wow, you got the Cadillac here that's going on here. You guys, your budget's high. So, yeah, we have these spark.

I think they were called Spark. I think that was a name. or something like that. And so you put your headphones on, you take the pills, same thing? Yep. No, no, no, no headphones. No headphones?

Yeah, we didn't have headphones in the fan. Okay. But, you know, I had a mouse in the monitor, and yeah, I took the pills. He told me that he had a bottle of pills. He said, you have to take these. I said, yeah, we, I took those in school too. And he said, I said two, right?

And he goes, no, just one, take one. I was like, oh, okay, well, it was two before. Yeah. Okay, so I'll take one now. And we had these little, each compartment had storage units, and we would share these seats with other people. I mean, we were the only shift. We were one shift, but then another shift would come in.

So we had our own little cubby, so to speak, for each person, and I would just keep a pill's there. Okay. And so you are in this van, is that's your workstation now. and you take the pills and then what are you told to do? He didn't tell me to do anything. He said,

it's just going to come when it comes and it's going to start when it starts. That's it. That's all the direction I got. I was like, is there any, should I expect anything? Is there any timing on this?

He says, I have no idea. You're just, I'm here to tell you how to, how to facilitate what you're supposed to do and that's it. So it took a while. It took, I can't remember how long,

but it was a while later that the first con came. And that's when the ball started rolling, so to speak. And when you say the first comms came, you weren't just getting, receiving basically thoughts? Yep. I would receive like, I think the first communication was something like prepare, prepare for, proceeding or prepare for something, prepare for communication.

And that would be the thing that would kick off. Like, my attention would go towards that. Did those thoughts have a different quality from your own thoughts? Yeah. Yeah, it was within a... It's really, really, really hard. It was an area. of my brain, and when you think, you don't think of an area. Like, you know, when, let's say you're thinking about, you know, the mic stand and you're, you don't, you can't correlate where that is in your head that you're thinking that. I mean, you don't know where the snapses are going. But with, um, with the IC communication, you can feel it in your brain. You can feel not, you can't, you can't, you can't local.

it. It's not a localization, but I can feel like it's in that area of my brain right there. Whoa. And it's like a colorful tapestry. And you have, you can focus on this over here, you can focus right here, you can focus right here, you can focus over here, but it's, it's focused wherever that tickle comes from. You focus right there. Okay, that's where it's coming from. And then that stops, and you go, okay, there's something over here, so I focus on that. And so So when the first communication would come in, in my mind's eye, so to speak, the tapestry came up. And I was like, okay, this is where I'm communicating right now. I'm communicating this tapestry.

That's the only way I can really vocalize the visualization. Do you remember which parts of your brain? No, no, there was. I couldn't localize it, you know, but I could tell that it's in a certain area. Whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So somehow more of a discrete area than the general. I felt it.

It's more of a feel than it is a scene, but you could feel that it's coming from a certain area. Did it feel more foreign than your thought? Like, do your thoughts feel like yours? Yeah. And these thoughts felt like other. Yeah, it felt like it was external from the kind of when compared to your own thoughts. Yeah. It wasn't external.

It didn't really feel external. It was here, I know. but compared to your own thoughts, it feels very foreign and very different. So what happens next? So I started getting communications, started receiving them. I pop up the window

and I would start typing whatever I was interpreting at receiving. And at first, it was just numbers. It was an idea. Well, I would get a preamble like the 1-1-8 and this is where I'm really showing how long ago this was

but it was like that and then I think there was like a a 5-digit or 6-digit or something like that number after the 118 and I never really knew what that was but was something I called it the zip code because it looked like a zip code but it wasn't it wasn't a zip code

and then I would do slashes after each focus, you know, of where in the tapestry, I'd go again. And so I'd put a slash and then I put the whatever it was. And it was just numbers initially. So you were almost picturing a canvas and like words coming on. No, no, it wasn't, no. Like when you say slash, how are you, you're seeing the slash?

No, no. when I would receive the communication, and this is me putting this into words, but it's not necessarily exactly this, but this is the best way I can convey it. There's this area in my brain or in my thoughts, and it's like a tapestry that has a lot of depth, and it can be very colorful.

I think that's just my, interpretation of what's going on. I think the colors would be different for other people, but it's just that it has color to it. And so I would see, in my mind's eye, I would see that there's a communication right in this area of that overall tapestry, so to speak. And then I would look at that, I mean, I would concentrate on it. I would focus on that. And that would be a communication. And it would be, it could be an image, it could be a number, it could be a feeling, a smell, it could be anything. It could be whatever we can convey in communication.

Like I could make a smell here and I can communicate that to you. Well, that smell would be communicated to you and I could do that in that too. I could actually, although I don't think I ever did, but I think I could actually get a smell through that. I could get any type of communication through it. So I would look at that, focus on that, and then I would convey that, and then I would put a slash, and then another area would come into focus, and I would focus on that, and then put that communication down, put a slash, and then another area would come up, and I would put a slash. So I would get these different communications through these different focuses, let's speak. And when you say put a slash, are you on the computer?

Yeah, I would type the computer. So you'd think, and then you'd type. I would receive and type it, whatever it was that was in that little area of the communication. Okay. And then I would put a slash when that was over or done or went on to another one. So they were concepts that were in different bytes, so to speak. So as soon as you comprehended a particular concept, you would put a slash and then you'd get another communication. But I would see it, not visually, but I would know that.

it was there, I could feel it in another area and I would concentrate on that and I could get that. And were you thinking in words or were you thinking in constant when you were receiving? Yeah, I would have to, because we're humans. You'd have to translate it immediately. Well, it wasn't so much a translation. Like would it come through in words? Yeah, it would come through in that. Okay.

It would come through in that whatever it was that I was reporting. Yeah. Like in that area, I would see the numbers. I would see four, five, seven, eight, two, and I would type that. And then later on, when I started getting visual stuff, I would see like a little, like one time I saw a missile being launched and, or not, it wasn't a missile. It was a rocket. And I can see around the payload area, I could see the same. I could see the seams and a, like it had blown up.

I could actually see that in my, in that tapestry, so to speak. And so I would describe that. I mean, like rocket blowing up. And, I mean, you could get into a higher or lower level of detail, depending on how much time you had to type. And, but, and the visual wasn't there for long either. It would just come and I would see it. and then it would stay down.

Did you try to correlate the thoughts or messages you were receiving with real events? So like that rocket blowing up, you can hook up, you know, I mean, that's hard to do. You don't have the internet, but. I did. There was a, it was in the news, I think. There was a Chinese launch of a rocket that had blown up. I don't remember whether I correlated it with that. or not, but I remember looking that up and seeing that.

But I don't remember if it was the same one that you received. Yeah. Because in your book, you say like Ariane, like certain company launches, you felt like you were tapping into the actual rockets launching, which is fascinating. Well, I think it was just whoever's got their fingers on the pulse of whatever is going on here. I think it was their way of testing my ability to convince. convey different types of messages, you know, different, different genre, so to speak. Yeah.

And it could have been, you know, they were testing my ability to describe what was going on in a, in a military type of functioning or the, you know, mechanical and all the stuff that went along what I saw. You know, did I describe, was it white? Or would I describe the length of it? or what would I actually describe when given that message? And so kind of testing, and I'm sure everybody else who was doing a, was an IC in the system, was getting the same types of things

so that you can see who is better at what. This is what I was thinking later on when I thought about this, is that it could have been like testing who is able to do what. At what point do you start speaking with aliens? That was it. That was during that time. That was coming from an alien. And does that alien reveal itself as having a personality?

Yeah. The first one, he was, I sensed a very logical structure. And I look back on it now. I don't think I really kind of, I didn't put it in the best words back when I wrote the book. book, but I look on it now, and I think it was the, I did say in the book that I think I'd said that he was very logical. It was very, um, more structured. The communication was a little bit more structured. And it wasn't as, you know, that tapestry that I talked about. It wasn't as,

um, his wasn't as, um, um, abstract or, yeah, it was much more, I wish I had more experiences of more aliens so I could see the differences because I only saw two and Spock the first one he was his tapestry and again I just say tapestry because I don't know how to explain it but his fog so to speak or whatever

was very very linear it was in my mind's eye it was very strict like this, his communications were in a straight line. Like the one area would have one piece of communication and then it would be right here and then it would be right here and then it would be right here and then it would be right here.

So it was very straight and... Does he introduce himself or you call him small? No, okay, so I guess I have to explain that. The reason why, no, I never got a name from him or anything like that. But his communication was very... very logical. And so my friend and I were, we were Star Trek fans. And I just thought it was funny just

to refer to him as Spock. And I wasn't referring to him to anybody else. So the joke was lost on the world until I wrote my book. Did you address him directly when you're sending messages back? Did you address him as Spock? No, no, no. I

never, no. I never said that. I don't even know if he would know who Spock was. We don't even, do we, maybe we don't even know it's a heat. Yeah, well, I think that, I guess no, but, but I did sense that it was a male, male energy. And what is Spock saying to you? Well, it was all very, very number-oriented.

It wasn't until I got to my second base that I started getting the imagery type stuff. but the first was very Spock well okay so at the end of my time at first the first base I was doing a communication I was receiving something

and the only reason that I would communicate back to him is like can you repeat that or can you say that again or do that again there was no real back and forth But I went into, and this is the hardest thing to explain, I think, and I say plain, but it was, I wanted to ask them a question, so I was really hesitant to do that. I wanted to start asking questions. And I was trying to get up the courage to break from the formality of our communications so that I could ask a question. And I really didn't know how to do that.

intuitively. I didn't know I didn't know what the protocol would be for that. I was receiving stuff and I could actually convey messages back as far as feedback and stuff, but I didn't know what the formality would be to have an

informal conversation or to ask something that had nothing to do with our communication. So I think it was because I was so anxious or charged about it that I asked him a question, but then it was the weirdest thing

because it went into another, I say plain, but I can't really explain. It was a different, it was a different tapestry, let's just say that way. You know, the tapestry that I keep on alluding to, it was a like a, you know, how I said you can focus, further away and then closer, you know, like the lens that I told you about the camera. Yep.

This one was like a macro. Like it came closer to me and it was different. It was different than the tapestry that I keep talking about. Anyway, so I asked me a question in this plane. And it shocked me when I did that because when I asked a question, and I was just asking it in the other realm, so to speak. But when I did that, it came up closer. Again, closer isn't a proximity,

but it was just my way of explaining the visual of it in my head. And so I asked the question, and then I also shocked myself because I was like, that's a different, I said that differently. It went out differently. Yeah. And then he, I sense he was also shocked. Like, I didn't realize that you could do that.

I can't remember the exact communication. But, and so I asked questions. And honestly, I can't remember a lot of the questions I asked. What was the, so you have this different plane of communication initially when you're communicating with Spock. He's just giving you like strings of numbers, like things that don't mean much. to you or? Yeah, well, I mean, none of it, well, until we got to the imagery part, none of it really

meant anything to me. So it was like you were just relaying this information to the NSA? Yeah. And but you didn't really know what you were relaying. Yeah, exactly. But then when I asked these, did I ask you a question? And again, I can't remember the name, what the question was, but he seemed shocked and I, I said, am I allowed to speak like this in this realm or I can't remember how I said it, but like at this level.

And he said, yeah, it's fine. And we just didn't realize that you could. And I'm paraphrasing, of course, my thoughts. But we just didn't realize that you could do that. And I was like, oh, okay. So is this okay? And he goes, yeah, it's fine. But he didn't want to, again, he didn't want to chat though.

I mean, it wasn't a, I don't think it was, it was in the purview of the program to chat with these people. It was, or these humans, you know, there's just the testing that was going on. But I was able to ask, you know, the questions I wrote in the book, you know, I had some questions and overall, overall impressions of what I got from those questions. What are, what are some of those questions that you asked? Well, like the, like the, how do they get here, how do they travel? and about time, because I've always been interested in time. I asked him about going back and forward in time.

And he said, you can't really go back and forward in time because time is a relative thing. So you don't know if you're going back, then what are you coming back from? There's no solid moment in time that you can measure from to go back and forward from.

But he said, you can go around time. And I didn't really understand when he was telling, me that I was not understanding what he was saying by saying that. I mean, there wasn't any, it wasn't a thesis written out so that I can analyze it. He just gave me the impression that you can go around time. And I think that's how they do their travel too, is they use time, but in a way that we really can't, we don't really understand. Could be like in a higher dimensional space or something. I mean, this is all, you know, total.

speculation. But like maybe, you know, you think about the fourth dimension of time or time as humans know it and it is this linear, you know, permanently progressing thing. You get in the river, you know, that's the kind of metaphor, you know, and you can't get out, you know. But if you had a higher dimensional, you know, temporal dimension or something, you might be able to, you know, jump in and out or so, like think about actually like a like a tesseract, you know, and the tesseract is is curling around or whatever. It's kind of like a sign wave or like a snake or something.

And you think of that as, you know, it's 3D, 3D, you know, inside of it or whatever. So you have like north, south, east, west, above sea level, below sea level. So you have three degrees of motion. And, you know, if you were to, you could hop from this part of the coil to this part of the coil or whatever.

And that would be actually like a very short, short distance if you had some higher abstraction of time. Yeah. But it wouldn't if that was all you had, right? And that's where the wormholes come in, where you come one, one aspect of the temporal to the next aspect of the temporal so you can travel between the two. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's, I didn't really, I didn't understand it. And I just kind of, it was my understanding of my rudimentary level of communication, you know, of knowing knowledge and in time and all that. that's where I distilled it to that, he said, around time. But he could have met something different, too. I don't know. Well, John Wheeler, the famous Princeton physicist, thought that there might be Wheeler tunnels everywhere,

which are basically little wormholes or black holes. Nobody knows what happens beyond the event horizon of the black hole. And then obviously, time and gravity have this really important connection. And you get these super dense formations like black holes. Time moves slower. And so you, you know, theoretically. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it definitely was fascinating. Just the little bit that I did get from him, it blew my mind. And he also mentioned, we talked about the son. He said that I in particular remember this one because he was so very, it's almost as if they respected our son. more than you would think that, you know, we take the sun for granted. It's just the sun.

You know, that's where we get sunlight and energy and it's no big deal. But he kind of, I felt it was more of a reverence feeling towards the sun because he was talking about how we really don't understand the value of our sun and that we will at some point eventually understand it. It's funny.

I had an off-record conversation, so I won't say who it was with, but with somebody who I think is knowledgeable around UFO reverse engineering programs. And he made this analogy of the sun being some sort of like portal to other star systems. And I don't know, you think about the history of the sun is so interesting. You have on gotten, you know, the sun god. And even if you read Isaac Asimov, wrote a book called The Kingdom of the Sun, where it talks about the changing conception of humanity's understanding of the sun. And you read about, you know, Copernicus who, you know, theorized the heliocentric universe.

And he had this very mystical conception of the sun that went well beyond just him thinking it was some, you know, lynchpin or whatever necessary for, you know, planetary orbits or whatever. So, I don't know. Yeah, it's, and we are, you know, we are discovering more and more about the sun. and we're sending probes and all that. And it's still a very wide open discovery platform, I think, for science. Definitely. And yeah, I think you write in your book that Spock even said that your scientists are just now figuring out how the sun generates energy. And, you know, you have obviously Cardishev scales, which kind of measure, you know, how advanced a civilization is.

And, you know, level two would be basically creating a Dyson sphere, which is. harnessing the energy of the sun. So maybe... Not in our lifetime, but... Maybe not in our lifetime, but, I mean, the sun is a fusion generator. And, you know, there are nuclear fusion startups now, which is, you know, this controlled fusion

is this holy grail of energy generation. So anyway, those are the kind of the highlights. It wasn't a treasure trove of information. And I wish it was, because it would make the book a lot more interesting, that's for sure. but it was, these are just kind of the impressions that I got. And it was a, it was a fascinating experience.

I can't really emphasize enough that it is something that our world is slowly coming to terms with. I've actually been asked just recently to be part of the congressional, you know, testimony and all that stuff. And there's a certain project that's out. They've labeled a project disclosure or something like that. We're slowly, slowly getting to that point where the government is going to have to say something or give some little tidbit of information to the world because the pressure is to so high. You just can't explain it away through campfire stories anymore. I just want to get back to the core details of the Spock thing.

So are you seeing a gray alien in your mind's eye? No. No. I never saw any visualization of their what they look like. So just you're having semantic concepts kind of come into your mind. Yeah. I have the same stereotypical view of an alien that everybody else has. Yeah.

I don't have any. Although when I see an alien like, you know, a fictional character or whatever, I always I always put, I overlay my communications onto that so that it becomes a little bit more important or not important,

but it has a different aspect to it when I look at an alien as opposed to as somebody else looks at it. Yeah, I know. I imagine it has a very different connotation. You're like, I know something like that is probably real. Yeah.

Did you have any sort of feeling towards Spock? Did you develop a liking to him or were you like, you know, this is some foreign weird thing that I'm, yeah. No. Well, I think it largely has to do with the fact that we never really became intimate as far as our conversations. So you kind of, it might as well have just been the computer at the school as far as I was concerned. Right. Other than the colorful, the, the detail of the, the detail of the, the, the detail of the,

the, of what I was communicating through, now my tapestry, so to speak, that was different. I mean, that was all new to me. I was able to tap into it easily because of my training, but the training never, I never saw that, that venue of communication until I actually got the communications from the aliens. until then it was very it was very um um it was very um it was very clean it was um let's say what's the word um sanit it was sanitized it was very uh clean it's almost like you were like a human antenna or something yeah yeah or a conduit or yeah i i kind of look at it as like a it was chromatic that type of communication was chromatic, whereas this was very organic and very colorful and very clear.

You know, there was a lot of clarity to it. Is there anything special about the base where you were like, maybe I'm being asked to do this project preserve destiny and communicate with aliens because this base is located in a particular place that's unique or has some equipment that might be good for alien communications? or? Well, the project that I worked on, I mean, other than Project Preserved Destiny, the Black Project, was a very interesting into itself. I mean, that would be a podcast that anybody would love to hear because it was just so interesting.

And it had to do with electromagnetic stuff, but... Interesting. It was, I don't know if there would be any correlation between the two. I mean, other than just be in the cover for it. Yeah, because I think, I don't know, there are guys that come up in UFO lore like Robert Sarbocker, and he was actually, I just, we were talking about Whitley Streber before this started rolling,

and he was looking to Whitley Streber. They were about to meet the day he died. But he was, this guy, Sarbacher ran R&D under Vannevar Bush. Like, he was basically Van derbauer Bush's air. He ran the whole Washington, you know, National Labs. He was like an atomic energy kind of godfather in the United States. And he, in 1987, towards the end of his life, started to come out and write letters to UFO researchers like this guy, William Steinman, and say, you know, the UFO rumors are substantially true. Vannevar Bush was involved in this project, as was John von Neumann and all these things.

And he wrote a book called Ultra High Frequency Engineering. I wonder if his vector in the whole UFO thing was some sort of communication modality with the aliens that was maybe on that side of the electromagnetic spectrum. What was the content of his book? What did it talk about? You know, it's Chinese to me.

It's like extremely esoteric. It talks about radio, though, as far as waves, electromagnetic energy. Is that what is... Yeah, I don't know what exact spectrum, but I... No, I don't mean the spectrum. I just mean in general...

It's about... about electromagnetic energy. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, but was it about the government's involvement with it? Or just a general sort of textbook on it? I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.

I don't know. Did you at any point think that maybe this wasn't an alien on the other end of the communication, you were just being told that because I do think this is what makes this whole topic so tricky, is that in certain cases, is the reverse dynamic of what you just, of what we've been talking about this entire time, sometimes you're not tagging a gray project with a black project,

but you're tagging a black project with a gray, fake gray thing to catch spies. You know, it's this classic intelligence move. Say you had some like anti-gravity vehicle or whatever. You'd call it alien and then you'd write a bunch of fake documents that, you know, talk about aliens or whatever. Interesting. And then it would like, it'd be like putting like a dye into a pipe,

and you'd see the communication trail and you'd catch Soviet spies or, you know, you'd do also throw people off the trail or whatever. Maybe you'd initiate recruits because it would be sort of a puzzle for them to figure out. So it would like serve all these purposes

to actually call black stuff alien. So did you ever think maybe I was actually, I'm actually just communicating with, you know, in a way that breaks physics, which is fascinating, or the physics as we know it, but humans through more mind matter parapsychological means. Now we have like the telepathy tapes. It's one of the most popular podcasts in the U.S. earlier this year. Yeah, you're probably familiar. I heard the name, yeah.

Talks about these like nonverbal, often autistic children who, you know, can telepathically communicate and commune on this sort of hill. It's absolutely fascinating. It sort of send each other images at really high accuracy rates. And so did you ever think maybe you were part of a human parapsychology program and they were tagging it with the alien thing. I gave that some thought, especially when I was writing the book. I wanted to kind of flesh out my thoughts on how it was, how it would be interpreted into the public, you know, and what people would ascribe to my experience and how they would. try to block or try to get it off what I thought and go into other other areas. And so I did

think of that. And I guess it's possible. You know, it's not impossible, obviously, because I never saw an alien. I never, even visually, I never saw an alien and never got any indicator as to what they were human or not. But I can say that. that the way the communications happened, unless we've somehow gain the ability to do that in some way, the style of communication was very foreign to how our minds think.

So maybe on this plane, even if you have two humans, that is kind of the standard by which you would communicate in that way, even between two humans. But I got this dissoning. distinct impression that it was not a human. Yeah, but you're also talking about strings of numbers and like, like, it does feel foreign.

The way it's being communicated doesn't feel like, it's interesting. I mean, there are nonverbal tribes, indigenous tribes, that talk about the ancient language where they are able to kind of communicate telepathically with each other. And there are people with mind melds going on, you know, like couples over long periods of time, and that's where they're twins. I mean, the classic example. And so this felt like a different variety of things.

Yeah, but the communications, I would think anyway, the communications in that way would still be human type of communications because we think in a certain way. That's what I'm saying. This felt qualitatively different as far as what was coming in. Yeah. And I can't really attribute it to or can't compare it to anything else that I could vocalize to.

to you. It's just completely different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there are theoretical way, like, have you heard of bone induction? Do you know what that is? Well, I've seen those speakers, you know, that you can put around your neck or whatever, and they had the bone induction.

Exactly. You could hear sound. Classic example is Beethoven was deaf. And so, like, he would actually bite onto a conductive rod that was connected with his piano, and he would play notes. And then he would hear it because it would buy bypass his ear canal. And so there are ways to communicate semantic information that bypass the traditional kind of auditory track. And actually the director of the NSA while you were

in your program was this guy Bobby Ray Inman, who's on record talking about UFOs with this UFO researcher named Bob Oxler. I don't know if you know about this on a phone call. He then goes on to, you know, work at SAIC. It's this, you know, big military contractor that you know, made tons of money during Star Wars and, you know, strategic defense initiative. And then they got into psychotronic research and psychotronic weaponry and stuff. It's always this question for me is like, what came first? Is it the alien stuff? Or is it the weird MK Ultra, like kind of, you know, like embedded implant sort of, you know,

communication stuff? And, you know, it's funny. I definitely don't shake out that human technology explains all of this stuff. Like, I think your story is like a great example of that. but it's such an interesting history. Yeah, so I don't, I just, back to your original question, I think that I'm pretty convinced it was alien, but there's no way that I could prove it in court.

Yeah, well, no, that's an intellectually honest, you know, readout, and I appreciate that. And, you know, I think it's extremely fascinating either way, but I... That's true. I mean, even if it were two humans, it would still be fascinating. It's still breaking paradigm physics and also totally, you know, new area for the NSA, nobody thinks they're involved with. But I, you know, after reading your book going through all your stuff,

watching all your interviews, I also think it's genuinely alien. But, okay, so that was the first base. You didn't take a sip of water. Sure. Yeah. We can do it on a camera, too. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah, we could always, yeah, be, yeah.

At least we don't have the cigars like, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you a fan of his? Yeah, yeah, he's interesting. I've been a fan of his as a comedian, too. Yeah. This comedy is epic. Yeah, he's amazing.

I think he's so cool. I think he's such a good guy. He's so genuinely curious and all this stuff. Yeah, oh, yeah, definitely. He's a curious mind. I love that. I love when people are curious. Yes.

And not semantic and wrote and, you know, just within your own box. Yeah. I want to look out other things. It's good. I think it's fear. It's like, if you can't integrate something, with your worldview, you have this like immune reaction. Oh, yeah.

You just, you don't want to look at it. We're going through that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure you sometimes get that. It's funny, like, sometimes I'm like, yeah, I run a podcast on UFOs and people are like, oh, cool. And they, like, move on and start talking about the weather or something. I'm sure you usually, like, maybe you occasionally tell people, yeah, I was, you know,

recruited by the NSA to decode alien signals. Oh, cool. Yeah. Well, what are you doing after this? Yeah. Like, do you ever get that reaction? Oh, definitely. Or it's like not even like, they're not even capable of like holding it in their worldview.

I, I, um, but I have the opposite effect really in that, I mean, for me anyway, I don't really want to talk about it. So because, because it makes people uncomfortable. I believe that. So it's like, I'll say, well, once I get to know somebody, I won't say it initially. But, you know, if they start, we can know each other. I'll say, yeah, and I, I don't know if you know, but I wrote a book and, and they'll go, Oh, really? What is it? And I'll say, I'll say the name of it.

I say, it's on Amazon. You can, you know, above black, you search for it. And then I wait for them to come back to you. Yeah, to come back. And if they just never mention it again, I'm like, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, you know, if they have a genuine curiosity, then I'm open to that, too. No, it's a great filtering process. Yeah. Because just saying it to people and springing it on them, Yeah, I communicated with aliens. They're going, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I get it. And it's like, you also, I mean, are refreshingly non-histurionic in your personality. Like, it doesn't feel like you have some, like, you know, desire for attention. You have the, you have the certain segment, and I'm sure you're familiar with it, of this world that is very,

I mean, I went to conferences when I, my first release of book, I would be invited to all kinds of conferences. Yeah, yeah, yeah. UFO conferences and alien conferences. And holy moly, the people that I would interface with. Yeah, no. I mean, it was. Often it's extreme narcissism, too.

It's like this solipsistic, like, I am a star seed. I was sent here from our tourists. And I am going to enlighten everybody. And it's like, come on. Like, you really, really? You're the Messiah. It's crazy. One conference I went to one time.

It had a bunch of like, I don't know, alternative stuff going on. Experiences and things. And one guy had the stigmata. You know, you're familiar with that stuff. And he had an open wound, like right in the middle of his forehead, like, bleeding. And he would uncover it because we were at, of convention of things that, you know, people came here to see.

So he would uncover it for people, but he usually kept it covered. I didn't even know what to do. He did that to himself. There's no way. I'm, and then I think, you know, my story, my story is in amongst all this. I'm like, chance do I have. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have the anti-up guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got the alien guy. 2.0. Well, I think the stigmata guy, you know, is trying to compete against people like you who are just like, I don't remember fully what happened, but this is what I think happened. And, you know, but, you know, the core details are very verifiable. And, uh, well, it's, it's kind of why I kind of left the scene. Because I really, I mean, my story is my story. Yeah. I read in the book. And that's it. I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to, you know, become a star. I'm not trying to, you know, become a star. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to. I'm not. to become a celebrity at this. I just put out my story for people to gel with whatever their stories are. And it's a piece of the puzzle. And that's all I'm good for. I mean, I don't need to just let me hide over here in the corner somewhere.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I get, you know, I get pinged on Twitter all the time. And it's, I don't know what to say. Yeah, yeah. And like, can I call you? I'm like, oh, really? Can you ask my question? Ask question via tech.

because I've talked to dozens of people, and it's just I wrote it in the book. Yeah. I don't, what else do you need to know? So I love this format here, because we can talk about other things like stigmata, and kind of put color to it. But for the most part, I just don't need to talk about this anymore

because there's plenty of other people talking about it. It's in the book. Well, I'm honored you said yes to me. Why did you say yes to me? Well, you have a good charm over text. Very good charm. And now in person, the same. So that's good.

I just, I wanted it to be, I wanted to be a clearinghouse, so to speak, or whatever I have to say vocally to people about the book. We're probably, I would assume, going to cover pretty much the entire thing. Yes. And so it's out there. And at my age, you know, I want to get it. at the point where I'm still, you know, smiling and thinking clearly and all that stuff. And then I just want to let it go into the ether and it's well-researched, well-documented,

well-talked, you know, and it doesn't really need to be beaten, like a dead horse. Well, I'm honored you said yes, and I do think we're going to package something in a way that, you know, right now it's... It is these really structured. We were talking about this earlier, like kind of, you know, baby boomer kind of legacy media. Like, so this happened and then this happened and then this happened. Yeah. Well, and it's a question and answer. Yeah.

All the the interviews that I've had up to this point were not podcasts. Before podcasts were a reason. Sure. Yeah, thing. So it was very, my last one was in Florida. And it was, he was very nice, very nice crew, just like your crew, very nice people. But it was very structured. It was very bad.

question and then answer, question and answer. And it was very heavily edited, you know, for time and all that. So I just came across as very, you couldn't see. Contrive. Well, that begets, that begets skepticism now. Yeah, it does. When you see the, like, even the late night talk shows or, like, the, you know, the primetime broadcast or whatever, and it's this, like, very, like, done up, you know, manicured, like,

like, you know, set thing where it's like the producers were in touch with the guests prior, clearly. We're going to go over this. We're going to go over this. Go over all these things. Like, it's funny you should ask that. Well, I was on vacation with my family or whatever. It's like, what are you?

It's so weird. Yeah. And then you have, honestly, Rogan's the biggest innovator. OG. O.G. Him and like Mark Marin and stuff. Yeah. Where it's just was fully just off the cuff.

And you get a sense for your, this voyeur, looking into a conversation that's happening super organically and naturally. Yeah. And you can suss out. what's, you know, real and what's fake and... Yeah, personalities have a lot to do with people's authenticity. Yes, totally. Well, I'm, you know, I'm happy because I watched all your interviews,

and I was like, this guy seems very sane, and you seem even more sane in person. Right to see my stigmata. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Well, you know what's something funny. You were saying that, you know, this guy who's probably crazy and might be a hemophiliac if his wound was open this entire conference, was, you know, saying that he, you know, had a stigmata.

You know, one of the first guys to receive st. Francis of Assisi post-Jesus. This is, I think, 13th century Italy on Mount Laverne. And there's this religious studies professor named Diana Pesolka. And she basically says, if you look at the original translation of what happened to St. Francis, it was probably just an interaction with a U.S. And he received sort of electromagnetic, you know, damage. Look at you bringing stigmata back to my story.

That's what I'm saying. What a host. Yeah, you know, we do it we can't. That's awesome. Yeah. Okay. So we're midway through the story. So we talked about Project Preserve Destiny base one, which was overseas somewhere.

There was a second base. Is that right? Uh-huh. So you leave base one. Are you just like back into your normal? Air Force electronics intelligence job? Or what do you do? Yeah, all of it's under the auspices of that.

Okay. And then I get orders. That base is actually, I close that base down. The base itself closed, the entire base, not just our aspect of it. Okay. So I went to my next base, and same thing, got, you know, read in as far as security clearances and for that place it took like, I don't know, 30 days for my security clearances to come in. So I had no job. It was like I was just free to do whatever I want

to do. Yeah, just hanging out. And actually a funny story. You're supposed to stay within the area, you know, because if they call you, you have to get there when they tell you to get there. And I took a chance and I drove just about to say the state that I won't. Um, I drove to a friend's house. It was about a four-hour drive, something like that, four or five-hour. And they called me when I got there. They called me in and said, you need to be here at 8 o'clock in the morning. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I got to get back.

And it was a blizzard. There was a blizzard the entire way home. And I almost didn't make it back because of the blizzard. And so the moral that story is do what they tell you to do and stay in the local area when you have a 30-day hiatus. Anyway, yes, so my clearance has got, it's finally there. And I got, for that one, I went into my job

and I was working my regular job. And the introduction happened by the previous captain actually showing up at my job on the, floor where I was working and I was like oh hey cat what's it what's up I didn't even know you were in the States I didn't know where he went from from where we were before and so you know we kind of had a nice friendly back and forth and so this is the guy you should pseudonymously name Captain White or yeah whoever was the captain I I can't remember the name to that but the captain at the first base that the yeah okay it was my former contact he was he was he was

lay into me my next contact, who was a captain at station at that base. And so they were together. And so I got an in-person interaction this time as opposed to over the phone or whatever. And then he took me over to the computer screen, and I had already looked it up. I'd already done the thing and I saw that it was there. So he didn't really even have to tell me. But I knew who my contact was now. So that was the most important thing. And same thing. You go to this sort of workstation terminal. Is it in a van this time? No, no. This was in a big room. Big air-conditioned room. It was, this was, oh, the previous base was very small. We had like 25, 50 people, something like that in our detachment. Everybody knew one another. It was very small in it, or close-knit.

But the next base, it was a very big base, very big detachment. We had a multi-service, Air Force Navy Marines. Everybody was there on the same building. So it was a big room. But I wasn't as close to the people around me either, so I had a little bit more space to do my thing. So nobody was hovering over me or right next to me or whatever. And that took a couple, maybe a couple months before I started receiving,

maybe not that long after I got briefed or into, you know, my security clearances and I started doing my job. I started to receive communications again, prepare for communication. I was like, oh, okay, well, here we go. I'm at work, let's go. I started to translate those. And same thing, you know, just. Same variety as the first as Spock.

Well, no, actually the communication has changed themselves, but I'm just saying the whole process every once in a while, I just get a communication just like I did at the previous space. And you're just sitting at your workstation. Sometimes I was in the bathroom. I mean, I could be anywhere in the building. You'd receive communications wherever. Yeah, but I was always in the building.

You'd always be in the building and then you'd go to the workstation and type it. Whoever was overseeing this whole. thing, they knew where I was kind of location-wise. I was at work. So they knew my shift. So once you received some sort of message, you'd go to the monitor and you'd type in slash and you'd type

in whatever messages you were seeing. 118, then the five-digit code. But the rest of the communication, there was a lot of, this one, this marked a time when I became much more, it became much more detailed. The communications were much more detailed. How so? What were they like?

very like pictures, images. Yeah, these communications, they were, they were much more colorful. I think also you could get a, kind of a sense of an emotion with the images. So it wasn't, you know, like when you watch a movie and you see somebody crying or you see, you can get emotion through visual,

not just auditory, not, you know, seeing, I mean, I'm hearing, but, you know, like words and stuff, but you can see, and these, and these images that I saw, they didn't have words to them. I saw images, but no words, but I felt emotion. I could feel emotion with the image. Not necessarily all the time, but if it meant to have emotion, then I could feel emotion. Now, whether that was conveyed with the message or whether I had emotion looking at the visual,

I can't really you know, suss that as far as which which was the generator of it, the image or me. But I did feel emotion with some of the images. So it was very much more colorful.

Do you remember any of the specifics of what was coming through? Oh, like the example of the rocket. That was one of the ones that I, got that was a visual. Because you also experienced a rocket failure in base one as well? No, I think that the visuals were

at the base two. Two, not base one. That's so interesting that it's like rockets specifically because if you were... Well, that's what I remember. There's a lot of others. Sure. Like scenes at a grocery store. Like random things. Okay. I saw some troop movies. minutes before I saw like

jeeps and two and a half ton of deuses or whatever they're called the big trip carrying trucks marching you know troop marching I saw um

let's see some nature stuff like in the forest animals things like that did they feel like things of particular strategic importance or like were they just random? Well, no, I really honestly believe the entire process or the the entire time that I was doing this was all testing. It wasn't, it wasn't, didn't have any functionality to it.

Was this alien being that you're now speaking to the same as Spock? Was it different? No, this was a different one. I only know that based on the, the quality of the communication because I could say that if I were talking to you on the phone and then you put somebody else on the phone like a lady, I could tell that that was two people. Even another guy, I could tell it was two people. And the same way with this communication, you can definitely tell that the communication is different.

It has a different flavor, different substance to it. Like the tapestry analogy that I meant, it's a different type of tapestry. So I think I would assume when I'm communicating with them, I have a certain tapestry that they're tapping into. Did you have a nickname for this alien? Yes, I did. What was that?

Well, I started on the Star Trek theme, so I just continued it with bones. And I only said bones because I thought it was just a funny era. I used that because it was funny. But there was no really correlation. With the first one, there was a correlation because he was logical. And so I was like, oh, that's cool. let's name him Spock, but the second one was just a continuation of the naming.

Did you ever try to ask Bones or Spock personal questions? Like, where do you come? Well, yeah. For Bones, I became more adept at doing that because I had just discovered this new plane with Spock, but then I left soon after we shut down that communications there because the base was closing and the C-Vam was, you know. and closed up and, you know, packed up and all that. So I wasn't able to do anymore with Spock, but Bones, I continued that theme because almost immediately I tried that new plane that I was telling me about the closer one.

And he was also fairly, I wouldn't say shocked, but he was inquisitive about like, really, you could do that. That's interesting. And so we used that. or I used it to, and I don't think I needed to, looking back at it, I could have just used the regular tapestry or plane or whatever you want to call it. But I kind of associated this in my mind. I associated that other one, the closer one, with a more informal communication.

So that's what I would always use for my questions. And so I had questions for Bose. And I think that a lot of the ones that we went over already are the ones that came from bones. Well, you also, I think, asked both bones and Spock, is it okay that we're communicating like this from the perspective of this national security program that you're involved with? And I think they both said the same thing. Is that right? They do. What did they both say?

They said it's there's no, I can't remember the exact. But he basically said that there's no problem. I mean, it's not a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. It's communicating is communicating. And I think they both almost express, they're like, we don't quite know what the, you know,

exact protocols are of your, like, human program. So it's cool with us. Like, it doesn't matter from our perspective. It seemed like they were kind of like on the same track as I was. Like they were just doing what they're being told too. Right, right, right. You know, kind of. Like maybe they have officers on the alien side and they're like,

they have need to know and they don't really have, They have a limited information set, and they're just changing. Now, they did, they did shut down communications a lot when I, when I tried to ask things that they didn't want to answer. Yeah. They would just shut down. But, but I didn't get the sense that there was a certain way that things needed to happen. They were, I think they were more interested in the testing of my ability to communicate than they were necessarily the content. Now, of course, I, I'm sure they had off-limit.

types of subjects that they couldn't talk about. But for the most part, when I did ask a question, they would give some sort of an answer at least or shut down. Yeah. Or they'd seem like kind of coy and like, you know, give you some high level like riddle or something. Well, I don't think they tried to riddle. It's just that my feeble brain. Sure. It became a riddle because of my feeble brain. Well, it's like if you live in some timeless dimension or something, you're trying to describe that So the words literally will fail on you as well. So what did bones say about religion when you asked? Well, I got the impression that we were,

he mentioned that we were part of the same creation. In other words, we were part of the same fabric of existence. As the aliens? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we're all part of it. He didn't necessarily say they have a soul, but he said that he implicitly.

he implied we had a soul. He said that there were two creations, intelligent and non-intelligent. And like plants were part of the non-intelligent, and we and them were part of the intelligent creation. And if you have intelligence, then you have what I interpreted when I heard it was a soul. Now, he might have meant something else,

but this internal agency or internal knowing, that I think that that's probably a better way of knowing it. And I think I ascribe, because at the time I was religious, I had a religious belief, so to speak. So I think I pushed soul into that round hole. Yeah.

Now that I look back on it, it didn't necessarily mean soul, but it meant sort of a self-agency, self-awareness. Did you ever ask any questions about yourself? Like, how was I genetically manipulated? or why or okay. If I did, I don't remember it because I didn't get an answer, I don't think,

because I don't remember anything like that. Did you ever ask them how long they've been visiting humanity? Yes. I tried to address that several times. My impression was that they've been here for a very long time, and that they've intersected with humanity at different times. And he did mention also that it became much more difficult once our civilization had advanced because it was the levels of communication between civilizations and stuff.

It was harder to keep their autonomy or their distance, so to speak, from when they wanted the distance. It was harder to do that when other societies were talking about each other. This was my impression. They didn't exactly say it that way, but that's what I got the impression of. Did they talk about any sort of interbreeding between humans and aliens? I got the impression that they had interbredited before, experimentally. I'm not, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was still, or that we still have the results of that, so to speak, on Earth. But he did, he did mention that they had experimented with that in the past.

Did you ask, are you the only alien race? Are there others? Yeah. Thank you for reminding me of that, yes. He said there were a lot. Like, I got the impression that it was a silly question. Like, of course there's more speed. This entire universe and you think we're the only two?

Yeah. So I got that impression. Did you ask if they have gender? you know, in their race or their lifespans were... They do have female and male. They have a different... They don't procreate exactly like we do. But they do have a dual sex type of situation.

And yes, he said they do eliminate waste. And I sensed a... a little bit of a humor with that. Yeah. Which was funny because here's two different species and you talk about waste and you get humor. Yeah, in both cases, which is that's fascinating. Yeah. But I never felt, I never felt a sense of like doubled over laughing type of humor, but I could sense that it was a lighter topic.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. When you talk about like missiles or, you know, you get an imagery of missiles. or something like that, it has a certain framework or emotion to it. And then when you talk about stuff like that, it has a different framework or emotion to it. So, yeah, I sense humor. It's funny. I just interviewed this whistleblower named Charles Hall, who claimed to live with Paul White aliens

while stationed at Area 51 for two and a half years. And he claims that they... He lived with them. Wow. Yeah. And he, yeah, like, like, interact. across, you know, days at a time over in a two-and-a-half-year period where he interacts with family groups, you know, some of the kids and the father, and he has names for them. He calls one of them a good friend.

It's what he calls one the teacher. He calls one something hairy. It's wild. And he says that the UFOs have bathrooms on them. In the back of that craft was a restroom. In the back of all those people are at real physical biological entities. They all have to eat, they all have to breathe there, drink water, and they all have to periodically go to the restroom.

So, I don't know. Well, I mean, it stands to reason. I mean, we're organisms. Sure. Organisms have to eliminate. Yeah. Speaking of UFOs, did you ask about their mode of travel at all? Yeah, it had to do with electromagnetic energy and time.

I think the, I can't even remember what's called now, there's a scientist that came up with this concept of pulling the ship as opposed to pushing the ship. Yeah, sure, the Al-Cubia area. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it, yeah, that's it. Yeah. Over the years after my communication, I came to think that that was a very, very close proximity to what he was talking about. You're surfing kind of a space-time wave. Yeah, you create a void in front of you and you fall into that void and you keep creating the void.

Yes. Bob Lazare also says similar stuff to that. Yeah, I really think that was what they were trying to. I mean, they never really got into details, but they used a, a manipulation of electromagnetic energy, probably something that we don't really understand at this point. Did they have anything to say about the nature of human beings or what we are? He always referred to us as water vessels or water beings, water humans.

There was always a water aspect of it. And I think it's because they were probably not as they aren't made up as much water as we are. That's what I gather. I guess we are like 80% water. Yeah, yeah. Water's conductive and... Yeah. So it was just an interesting...

I mean, it wasn't something that we focused on. It was just in reference, he would say that's how he referred to as humans. Water beings. Water beings. It's fascinating. Did you get into Project Preserve Destiny and whether it was a... You didn't ask them any questions? Well, I did, but I never really got any answers on any of that.

Did you ask whether it was international or just... Well, yeah, we did. he did say that it was more than one country. Okay. Yeah. That was maybe not necessarily involved with PPD, but that was involved with their involvement with Earth, so to speak. Did you receive any messages about alien abductions or alien activity?

Well, that was, okay, so towards the end of my stay with this project, I started to receive stuff that indicated that it was, abductions. And that's where I started to feel like an accessory, you know, accessory to the crime, so to speak. And who knows whether that was a crime or not? I mean, I don't know, I don't know, in retrospect, I don't know whether they were abducting for humanitarian reasons. Who knows?

Sure. Maybe to... Upgrade our conscious... Yeah, yeah. Or increase our ability to know about the ballroom. and and work with it and heal it. And there could be so many different reasons why. But why surreptitiously? Why not tell the public about what's going on? So at the time, and of course I was going through a stage of my life too,

also where I didn't want to be isolated anymore. Yeah. I was in a prime age where, you know, you're dating and. How old are you? When I got out, I was around that. time I was 30. Yeah, around 30. It's definitely the prime of your life.

Yeah. Well, I believe you asked the first captain that briefed you on everything at the NSA complex. Why is this whole thing being kept secret? And he talked about economic destabilization and things like that. But I think, you know, I think he was parodying what he was told. I don't think he had any agency in that answer. Yeah, yeah. It felt like a can.

Yeah. And it's the same answer. that everybody has that the reason why we're not being told anything is because religion will you know be upset i think that's bullshit i mean i think we live in a pretty in effect atheist materialist world or whatever well there would be a certain faction of people that would blow their mind if if if it actually came out sure truth wise i think it would reinforce religion in many ways but that's we'll create maybe others who knows but yeah it would be if it would be if you're definitely be a shock to the system.

For sure. Nothing else. Absolutely. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. I mean, yeah. But anyway, I think his, what he was saying to me was just, it was, it was just pat answer. Did you get like kind of a map of what was going on alien abduction wise or see any visually or anything?

No. So the, the reason why I thought it was abduction is because of the, the field, so to speak, that I was reporting, you know, the information, they would report like potentiality for recall and pain levels and just different things that I would have to report a number in back of. So that indicated that it was some sort of, it could be bad or good based on the numbers. so a pain level could be good or bad. So it was almost like you were reporting on abductions, like somebody's pain level after having experienced an abduction.

That's fascinating. So you were like the readout debrief guy or whatever without even maybe knowing it, sort of unwittingly. Yeah. And up until that point, I had thought or I had assumed that the information that I was conveying was all training. It was all just stuff, you know, that was testing my ability to communicate. And then when that started, it shifted to my head like, well, we're not testing this anymore.

I mean, obviously, I can communicate a few numbers and a word. So you're actually using me as an operational asset to communicate stuff. and why you would need to do that. That was another thing is, but, but I don't want to be, I don't want to be, it's one thing to train me to do something, or, you know, in a training environment, and nobody's getting hurt or, you know,

nothing's, nothing nefarious, other than the fact that you're keeping this from the world, but other than that, set that aside. But now I see that I am, part of something that may be nefarious. Now, maybe not, but maybe. And then so I brought that up to my captain, and he didn't give me satisfactory answers.

He said, look, I'm just your communicator here. I'm just your contact. I'm not in a position to say, it's okay, Dan, you know. Yeah. No, that's not happening. I don't know. I don't even know what you're communicating.

So how am I? I don't know what to do here. And then when I got to the point where I said, I want to get out, that's when he became an important catalyst for my getting out because he said, I honestly don't think you're going to be able to get out. Like even when you're elizabeth is up, you're going to have to stay in. So was that the thing that gave you moral qualms about what you do? I mean, it is fascinating.

You were kind of like reporting on. on abductions for the aliens maybe. Like, they were probably, you know, getting, receiving signals from you about or reports from where the abductions were occurring. And then simultaneously, presumably, you have some gray human faction of, you know, the proverbial deep state or whatever,

military industrial complex coordinating on where the alien abductions are occurring. Levels of pain people are feeling. That's amazing. Yeah. And I honestly could not, I couldn't be a part of it. I mean, I felt morally compromised. Yeah.

Because I didn't have any choice. There was no agency in this, you know. So it's one thing, it's like, you know, when you're told to go out and kill an enemy, well, you have agency. You can say, no, I'm not going to do that. And you can court-martial me. you can do whatever you need to do, but I'm not going to do that.

Well, I didn't have that other than what I did was try to get out. I didn't have that option. I didn't have anybody to say, no, stop communicating with me. I don't want to do that. And I actually did in my communications. I tried to ask about it and say,

are these abductions? And I would never get an answer. It was like the stonewalling. And that's what led me to get all angry about it. It's so interesting, too, because in UFO alien lore, you have around 1954 as this, like, really important point where, this is, again, mythology. I don't have a ton of corroboration for this other than, I think, the fact that Eisenhower was actually in Palm Springs at the time, claimed to have a dentist appointment.

And then the sort of story is that that was cover for a meeting he had at Edwards Air Force Base. And it was a meeting with aliens where he basically agreed. you know, for basically like favor in military matters to give up part of the, you know, American population for medical testing, you know, when it came to the alien presence. And so that really does sound like what you're talking about, maybe outside of the dates being, you know, early 1960s versus 54. Well, I often wondered, well, how did they, how did they get this information to people that needed to get it before? Right.

Before the ICs were doing this. Sure. I was doing it at least. So I, but, but, um, it may be, it may have been a test, you know, to test my, um, resolve to, to, you know, they kind of kind of poke on the little bit of, is he going to, is he going to report anything that we tell him? Yeah. You know, dead, dead numbers.

Is he going to report stuff that is immorally just, way immoral, is he going to have problems with anything? Yeah. And I had, evidently had a problem. Have you ever been abducted by an alien? I had never been abducted. I mean, to my knowledge anyway. Fair knowledge.

Yeah. You've never found an implant or anything sort of bizarre like that. No, I have not. Have you had synchronicities in your life that you feel like led to your involvement in Project Preserve Destiny? Um, well, you know, it's hard. to, it's hard to have some sort of concrete evidence, but I remember when I was in second grade, I was playing on a garage roof and there was a walnut tree next to the roof and we were,

leaning out on the branches and one of the branches snapped and I fell and I fell like 25 feet. It was really, really high. And I fell on my back, directly on my back. And I remember feeling a sense of warmth. I did feel the impact, but I don't think I felt it as much as you would. No, you normally. That would be severely debilitating fall. And I, and I, it made me cry and I got up,

but I felt this warmth over me. And I, I thought that maybe I was bleeding or, you know, the trauma of the, I mean, you don't think of, you don't think of a lot of things when you're second grade, but in my memory, I did not hit that ground the way I should have hit it, given it was 25 feet up. And who knows?

I mean, there could have been some sort of watching over, so to speak, of my personhood. And of course, the SR-71 pilot, he really encouraged me to go in the Air Force. and I have this in the update of my book, which I did in 2008 or something like that, I have this ability to hear a certain, and it's not necessarily hearing,

but it's through my ear. It's like a wave that comes through my head and it's sensed in my eardrum. And I think I've correlated it to seismic activity. I think I'm highly sensitive to seismic activity. Interesting. And I correlated it before I got it in the program. You'd sense earthquakes.

Well, I can't sense an earthquake itself, but I can sense, I think, what is happening to a precursor of an earthquake or maybe after an earthquake. You have like premonitions. Well, it's not, no, not a premonition. It's because premonition is more of a idea, I thought. This is an actual physical thing that happens. And it's like, I don't know if anybody else has this ability, but when, like when an electronic item comes on or TV or anything that's really highly electronic, I can sense when it's come on.

You can. Yeah. Whoa. And like if, if I'm in a different room and somebody has the TV down, the TV screen down, I can sense when it's come on. So you're hypersensitive to electromagintative. Definitely. So interesting. So the, I think I've correlated the earthquake thing. And it's not a one-to-one correlation. It's very tenuous and ethereal, you know, because sometimes I'll send stuff and sometimes I won't.

Well, I think you put some examples in your book around your blog where you predict accurately certain earthquakes based on sensations. And the only reason I did it, I had a blog back in the early 2000s. And I put on there that I don't usually, say stuff because my blog was about entrepreneurial stuff and things like that. But I did put in there. I said, I don't usually bring this topic into my blog, but I really have to put this somewhere because I need to be logged. And I said, I have this way or thing in my ear where I can sense electromagnetic energy or what I think is electromagnetic energy. And so I'm, I woke up that, I don't know if I woke up, but I had, I had lost a hearing in one of my ears

for like three days. It was really, really intense. Because usually I just feel it going through my head. There's a really minor time of like maybe five seconds that I can't hear, and then it goes away. But this one, I was like deaf in one ear for like three days. It was ridiculous. I couldn't, I didn't know what was.

going on. But then I correlate, I was like, well, there's got to be some, it's got to be some correlation to something earthquake-wise. So I put in my blog, I said, now, I'm thinking that this might be within next couple weeks. It could be a next couple months, but it's impending. It's got to be some seismic activity. So there was like two 7.5 earthquakes back to back in Japan. And some people commented on my blog saying, oh, is that it? You know, and it was only like a week or so after my thing. And I was like, you know, I guess it could be, but I don't think it is. I think there's something way bigger than that.

This is not because I've gone through 7.5 earthquakes around the world, you know, before. I never had that happen. So I was like, no, I think it's something else. So that was in September of 2003, I believe it was. And in December is when the Indonesian earthquake camp. And, you know, 250,000 people died of the Radoaves and all that stuff. And, well, no, it was four. Because I updated my book in 2006, and I updated it with that information.

So anyway. Okay. But it was huge. Yeah. Whether that was just coincidence. And I got that sensation, you know, that, that, that, amount of time before the earthquake, who knows? And I haven't got anything like that since,

and there's been really, really big earthquakes. Okay. Now, I will get, I will get it, like, periodically, like, three times. And usually is there an earthquake after you get it? I would say a lot of the times, but not all the time, which is reason why I'm so unclear on it because it's so, So if it were a one-to-one type of thing, then I'd be like, yeah, that's definitely it.

Well, it's fascinating if you could map out the correlation more. I think maybe the more interesting thing is most people can't sense when a TV is turned on in their room next to them. I mean, that's really unique. Yeah, it's, I can definitely sense. And it actually has a lot to do it. Well, the modern TVs, not so much, but the tube TVs, those are the ones that I could really.

Do you think if somebody did a, study on you and you were like in a Faraday cage or like not even Faraday cage because that will block out their magnetic signals. So maybe that's a better thing. Say somebody did an experiment on you. I would love to do that. Yeah. You were in a room. Somebody was in another room next door. They shared a wall. You know, they have an old TV in that room and they're turning on the TV. Do you think you'd be able to? I honestly, I think I could. Wow. I mean, I've never done it before. But, and this is very undertal because I could, I, I, I, I sensed it when I was a kid, I would always know when the TV was on because when my dad would, because we had an older TV and the sound wouldn't come on with it. It would, it would be one of those tube TVs, you know, the big tubes in the back.

It was a big magnobox. And, but I could be in a different room and I would know that when the TV came on it, because the sound wouldn't come up initially. it would just TV to come on and warm up. Very old. So, yeah, I just, I have a very, I'm very sensitive to things like that. I'm also sensitive to, it's very interesting. And this is a fairly new correlation, although I've always had it probably, but with the advent of a lot of videos being shared of people hurting themselves,

when somebody, when I watch a video of like, you know, these, these videos, where you'll have a whole montage of people falling and crashing into a ball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crashing their bike and all these things falling on their porch. It's like Rob Deerdeck show or whatever of like. I can't watch those because when I, when the impact happens, I feel it in my body. My entire body does a shot when I look at that. And it's that I think it has to do with the empathic nature of.

me seeing a visual like that, I honestly cannot. I mean, I'll watch a couple of them and then I'll go, no, I can't do that. So you're hyper sensitive? Very, very sensitive. Very sensitive to smell, hearing. All my senses are very, very, very heightened. It's so fast. It drives my girlfriend crazy.

I can smell somebody smoking in the car in front of me on the highway. Whoa. So interesting. I mean, a lot of people can smell smoke too, but, but, They can, it's very, very, very heightened. Well, it's, you know, there are different forms of sensing, and we obviously have the five senses, but, you know, that like the platypus can sense electric fields, for example.

You have lots of examples like that, you know. So it's not impossible. Yeah, or it's like, you know, maybe there's genetic mutations and maybe you were literally genetically manipulated by aliens in the womb to be able to sense certain things. It could have ancillary drug, crossovers in other areas of the brain. Well, that would make sense, yeah,

that it wouldn't be an isolated thing. Yeah. Yeah. Babies also have, you know, they're hypersensitive. They also have synesthesia up until six months. And there's a space psychologist who works with a lot of astronauts. And she calls herself a cognitive engineer. Her name is Dr. Ea Whiteley.

And she's trying to train babies to retain their synesthesia for longer because she thinks that comports with alien communication. It's really interesting. Very interesting. Yeah. Your job is real interesting. I love it. It's so fun, man.

It's so interesting. I mean, I get to talk to people like you and learn about all this crazy stuff. It's so cool. Has anything? Well, actually, we should talk about, like, the increased sort of bitterness towards this. So you're in the prime of your life. You're 30 years old. You know that you have all this opportunity cost.

you probably have no romantic life. Your social life is probably kind of shot. And then you talk to your captain about wanting out and what does he say and how does it feel? Yeah, he said he suggested, he didn't say it like, you know, you will not. But he said, I don't honestly, given your position, I don't think they're going to allow you to get out, period. Never mind the fact that you want to get out now. I had about two or three years left on my enlistment and I decided to just, make an in-run and try to get out because I just didn't want to be a part of it anymore.

And I think if they had, if I had become more embraced, part of a community, you know, part of a mission. Yeah. Those are different. Your human mind approaches that differently than if you're just isolated and in a box and nobody wants to talk to you and you're just a tool. Yep. it's harder. It's harder to keep that, that motivation and that, the Superman,

the Superman, uh, uh, aspect of this, you know, because when you're first told this, you think, oh, I'm, I'm a little bit of a superhero here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm really special and all that. That only goes so far and so long. And, and then you start to, that starts to become no longer a novelty. It's just, it's a, it's a, And then when I get this information about the abductions,

and it just took on a new level and I just didn't want to be a part of it anymore. So how'd you get out? At the time, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy was in place. And I was bisexual at the time, and less so now, but at the time I was. And so I admitted, I said, I wrote a letter to my commander and I said, and this was the commander that was not in charge of me from the project perspective, Project Preserve Destiny,

it was just my regular chain of command, my black and then unclassified level. That chain of command got a letter and I said, I'm admitting homosexuality. and whatever you want to do with that. But I don't want to be in a conflict with the policy of no homosexuals in the military. And so I just want to let you know. I want to be honest.

And then that's the paperwork started and discharge and the whole nine yards. Wow. So the chain of command was crucial there because if the chain of command for Project Preserved Destiny had their way and they had final say on that, then I would not have gotten out. They would have just tossed the letter.

But I purposely went through another Shandy Command who did not have the option of doing something like that. Were you relieved on the other side of this? Oh, yeah, definitely. I was way happier that I didn't have to participate in that anymore. Do I have regrets? Yeah, of course. I mean, I regret not being able to continue serving my time because I'm kind of a, you know, I'm a patriotic guy and I love my country.

And I felt that was a little bit of a stab in the back of the country. But on the other flip side of that, they were stabbing me in the back too. Oh, yeah. Or at least a certain faction of my chain of command. So it was something that I had to tussle with mentally. Well, you served and they can't hold you captive. Yeah, exactly. And I wasn't going to be held captive, that's for sure.

And an alien intuitive communication program nonetheless. You know, it's not a garden variety, like, you know, just being deployed. Dan, did you experience any backlash after telling this story? I mean, it's kind of a bombshell claim. The NSA is notorious for knowing everything about everybody. per Ed Snowden's revelations. Yeah, that's true. You know, I do have one story.

This was about maybe two years after the book came out, something like that, maybe a little less. And I was working in an office and Howard Stern show called on my cell phone. And they, the producer, one of the producers, was just trying to find a story to, you know, bring on the show. And so he was asking me some questions. And so I got off the phone and hung up the phone. And I was like, wow, how are it? That's an interesting, interesting little venue for talking about aliens.

Okay. And then not, I'd say maybe a minute went by. and I got another call on my cell phone. And the person on the other, and the line said, drop the story, don't go on Howard Stern and stop talking about it.

No way. And then just hung up. No way. It was only about a minute after the call. And he didn't go on Howard Stern. No. And, well, they never called back. Howard Stern never called back.

So I don't know. Maybe they got the same call. Oh, I don't know. I don't know whether it just wasn't worth it for them to do it or they got a call or I don't know. But you got a call. a call from a random number that wasn't in your phone. Well, this was, but phone probably didn't even have the number.

You weren't even saving numbers at that. No, no, no, no. That's wild. And what did it sound threatening? No, it just, it just sounded very direct to the point. And I think it was just a, they've been monitoring the situation with my story. And they know that if they put attention to it, the government, says, you know, they arrest me, let's say,

they mess me and put me up on charges. They're validating the story. Right. So it's almost like it's better to not just leave them alone and be among, you know, one amongst the stigmata and the alien crazies. Nobody knows how to differentiate. Exactly. That's the trouble I have with some of these things.

It's like, and especially on YouTube, sometimes it's like a, it always has this quacky veneer. It's self-concealing. It's self-stigmatizing. And people don't have the discernment. They bucketed in with the stigmatist stuff. And I'm like, no, I think this is kind of real. Like, this is like a very different, you know, variety of things. That is the problem with the whole.

The whole topic. Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't know what to take serious and what to not take serious. You really don't. Do you think that the NSA or Powers that B know that this interview is happening? It obviously hasn't been released. Do you think somebody's tracking us doing this?

I think I've been off the grid so long that I probably have not, I don't have an Asian attached to the story. I don't think. Slip through the crack. Who knows? Who knows? Yeah, yeah. Well, to anybody listening. I'll let you know if I get a call.

I'll do the same. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully neither of us get dropped the story right after this, you took this whole trip. Has anything, you know, after having left this program for many years now, you're out for, you know, three decades. I imagine you go to these UFO conferences. You've written your book, and people come out of the woodwork. And so have you met anybody who said I was also a part of Project Preserved Destiny or anything like that? I've had people mention to me that they met somebody who confirmed that it existed, but nobody that was actually in the program.

No, I have not had anybody contact me. Do you know, have you heard of this guy named Noah? I could be pronouncing his last name incorrectly. Rodek, Noah Rodek. How do you spell the last name? H-R-A-D-E-K? Oh, no. So he put out a Freedom of Information Act around Project Preserved Destiny

probably inspired by your story to the Air Force and wanted to know if it was real. And the Air Force said that's an NSA project, forwarded it to the NSA, and then the NSA said, we can't comment on the existence or non-existence of such a project. Standard answer.

Standard answer if you're admitting that it exists. Basically, the modern hermeneutic reading on that is this is a real project. I want to emphasize just how important this point of discussion is. While at first, the Air Force denied the existence of Project Preserve Destiny to this independent researcher, Noah Rodek. They followed up later saying this, and I quote, Good Afternoon. This letter is in final response to your 27th of July 2020. Freedom of Information Act request for requesting information on Project Preserve Destiny.

We apologize in the delay in Responding. After a careful review of your request, we have determined that the information you are seeking falls under the purview of the NSA. Therefore, our office has referred your request to the NSA for their processing and direct response to you. Why would the Air Force tell Rodek that this program fell under the purview of the NSA if the program didn't exist. And it's remarkable that his request to begin with didn't even mention Dan Sherman. It independently corroborates that Project Preserve Destiny existed under the NSA.

Then, not only could the NSA not confirm or deny the existence of Project Preserve Destiny, they cited Executive Order 1356 around projects classified in the interest of national defense. To quote their exact response, this agency has determined that the fact of the existence or non-existence of the material you request is a currently and properly classified matter in accordance with Executive Order 13526. Thus, your request is denied. So yes, on the one hand, the NSA is caveating their entire response with the existence or non-existence of Project Preserve Destiny.

They're basically giving themselves an out on the pre-exhavenors. program even existing. But why would the non-existence of Project Preserve Destiny cause the NSA to invoke Executive Order 1356, which only involves classified programs dealing with national defense? Why would they cite this specific executive order in response to a FOIA request around Project Preserve Destiny? To me, the Air Force rerouting the FOIA request to the NSA actually feels like more of a smoking gun on the program's existence. The NSA's response could be in interpreted as a standard runaround or non-answer, but I'll let my hardcore researcher friends weigh in here.

Perhaps what's even harder to argue with than coded language from the government is this certificate granted to Sherman by the NSA for satisfactory completion of the EA 280 Intermediate Electronics Intelligence Collection and Analysis Course. Again, this was for the daytime course Sherman attended at the NSA Complex, normal electronics intelligence training, not his very classified Project Preserve Destiny work he would do at night,

but it really helped substantiate his presence with the NSA when he claimed to be working with them. A fantastic researcher named Richard Geldreich did even more digging on Dan Sherman with an ancestry.com search. The results showed that Sherman likely, in fact, lived in Omaha, Nebraska between 1993 and 1994, around 15 to 20 minutes from Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska where he said he was stationed. Could this be Project Preserve Destiny Base too? It certainly fits his description. And so I don't know if you know that that happened.

It sounds familiar. It sounds like somebody told me in some of the communications we had. I've heard something about it. I don't think I did. No? I heard somebody say something about it somewhere. You know, when you're in my position, you hear so many people talk about so many different things.

And it's, it just, it becomes just a conglomeration of information that just goes through my head. And I, and it doesn't help that my personal interests don't really lie in this area. Yeah, no, no, no, I think that's cool, though. It's like probably good. It's also, to me, it's a good signal that you reacted the way you did just now. because I think if somebody were like cared a lot about like, you know, arguing for his case, they'd be like, they'd have like a kind of like an encyclopedic like canon of like corroborating evidence.

And you're like, yeah, cool. Like I know what I went through. So it doesn't really matter to me. Like I think that's a big deal as a researcher. And you're like, whatever. I had a, I had more of an interest in aliens before I knew they were alien. Really? Than I do now.

Why? I think it's the mystery of it. The mystery is. what people are attracted to. Right. I mean, obviously, you know, we want to know the truth and everything, but I know the truth. So you feel like you've gotten confirmation.

Yeah, so my mystery, the kind of the mystery aspect of it has vanished. Have you tried to develop your communications and speak to these people? Oh, I've tried before. And after leaving Project Preserve Destiny, have you been successful and spoken it? Nothing's there. It's like it was closed off. Have you tried to recreate any of the training with the tones or anything like that?

No, no. I think they used some sort of equipment that was designed for that. That was sort of the special proprietary thing that they figured out. And it's so interesting. Yeah, I also think of the NSA's involvement with this stuff. The modern, you know, the kind of UFO research group

that is, you know, very in the know right now as far as the, The official, like the modern project Blue Book, if you will, is called Arrow, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office. Okay. And the current head of that, it was a former NSA director. I don't think he was like the director, but he was like a director level or whatever. So I find that interesting. It's John Kozlowski. So I find that interesting as well.

It's like, why would you put that guy, you know? Maybe there is some NSA overlap because there aren't too many stories connected with the NSA and, the alien stuff, but you would assume, you know, if the alien stuff is real, which obviously I believe it is, the NSA has to have a lot of entanglement with it. Yeah. You know, there's so many different connections, because I was assigned to, well, let's just say, in general, I was assigned to the Space Command and during some of my tenure in the Air Force. And they have many connections to, so NSA has many connections to many different

bands. Yeah, okay. They're not just NSA and that's it. Sure. You know, they have connections everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I won't ask more. We brushed up against classified stuff. There's a guy named Scott Andrews.

Have you heard that name? He, when he was 36 years. He has, I guess, a biography coming out this or next year. That's very anticipated. when he was 36 years old, he started experiencing headaches and migraines and kind of destabilizing dizziness

and kind of Havana syndrome style effects. And he said that his father, he started to, you know, wonder why he was feeling like this. Like it was almost like his identity was breaking down. And then he approached his father who had a file on him. And he started to realize that as a child,

I think in like, you know, elementary and middle school, he was taken out of class. and he was taken to an Air Force base with the Space Command Center and was doing kind of intuitive communications with aliens. So it definitely sort of comports with your story. What's his name again? Scott Andrews.

And did he, how did you find out about this? It's all over Twitter. Oh, okay. Yeah. And did he write a book or did he just reveal a story? I think he's written a book and I think it's coming out at some point in the next year or so. Interesting. Yeah.

How old is he? I don't know how old he is now. So, yeah, I mean, I think that might even be a pseudonym. I don't know. I hope he goes more public. But, yeah, it's very anticipated, like this story. It could be an offshoot of what I went through. Maybe.

You know, because they, I'm, I'm pretty sure that PVD has been shut down. Okay. In its, it current, or what I saw in current form. Yeah. And perhaps gone on to. other things because, you know, things don't happen. They don't last forever. Sure.

They morph into something else and then that morphs into something else. Well, do you ever think you're part of like a reserve group where you'll get called back into duty? Yeah, well, if the, if the cataclysmic thing ever happens, I'd assume that that would be the case. So this is one of the most fascinating things about your whole story is just recently this year in Les Spresso, some Italian, like, weekly, there came out a story that references Project Preserved Destiny, and it comes out of nowhere,

and this could be chalked up to some sort of weird, like, amalgamation of UFO lore, like your story being, you know, an important one. But it goes into a level of detail that you don't go into. So it's like, what do the authors of this periodical know about this project. They say this, and this is a translation. There are not only duties in Donald Trump's new agenda.

Behind the scenes in Washington, there's a much darker dossier, the one on UFOs, and according to confidential sources, something very concrete is already moving. It's called Project Preserve Destiny, and it's much more than just a study program of so-called UAPs, unidentified anomalous phenomena. Behind this name, evocative and disturbing, hides an institutional waltz round that risks redrawing the balance between the Pentagon and the White House. And then it goes on to describe that project as Project Preserve Destiny. And it's like, how does this Italian weekly know about your project?

That is very interesting. This is maybe the strangest modern curveball in Sherman's whole story. In July of 2025, an Italian outlet called Le Espresso published an article which discusses Project Preserve Destiny and Trump's White House's involvement with it. This magazine is kind of like the Atlantic or Rolling Stone's dramatic Italian cousin. It has a long history of serious political journalism, but it's not shy about flirting with speculation and theatrical flair. It's a serious outlet, but we're not talking about the economist here. Still, when they drop a story about Trump taking control of Black Budget Alien programs,

you don't dismiss it as trashy tabloid nonsense. The article, claims that Project Preserve Destiny is not only real, but that Trump's inner circle has been in closed-door meetings with Pentagon officials, and they've decided to move certain special access programs or Saps out of Pentagon oversight and directly into the White House. Projects like Project Preserve Destiny. According to the article's anonymous sources, Trump sees the UFO issue as a kind of wildcard, a chance to brand himself as the president who finally tells Americans the truth about aliens. An opportunity I personally think he shouldn't pass up. The article goes on to describe six levels of secrecy. Programs Within Programs, exactly what Sherman describes

in his book. A black budget cover mission, deeply compartmentalized, insulated from oversight by other branches of government, but above it, a gray program core, above black, dealing with the alien issue. If you want to dive deeper into this mysterious Trump connection and what progress Project Preserve Destiny might actually mean for UFO disclosure, check out our substack, American Alchemy Magazine. I am linking it in the description below. But now, back to this crazy interview. It's fascinating. You know, I will say that out of all the presidents that have been read into, you know, black projects and gray projects, I would imagine this is the one that would upend the apple cart as much as he possibly could.

Sure. And it might also be why he has not been read into it, too. I think there are certain presidents that the status quo within the government control centers that have decided not to read in a certain president. And then other ones they have. And I don't know what the criteria of that would be. Well, you would assume somebody like a George H.W. Bush, who was director of the CIA, would be. be like of a different variety maybe than Jimmy Carter. But they also might do it in just in certain times when they actually need to do it. Sure. If they don't need to do it, then they don't do it. So who knows? I mean, who knows how it segues with the White House.

Is the first Project Preserve Destiny base that you were at San Vito Normani in southern Italy? That is one of the bases that I was stationed at. Okay. Well, thank you for saying that. I figured that was the one that was shut down. So we did a little searching from the images that you, you know, there haven't been any other bases that have been shut down that I was at? There might have been, but the overseas part.

Come on, researcher. Where's the research? You talk about the white, the white golden, the actually talk about an elephant cage, which is one of these large, you know, antennas, and that exists there. And talk about it being 50 people and it was a smaller base. And so we figured it out. All right. here's where things get interesting. After reading Dan's book Above Black, I kept thinking about

that elephant cage at the first base Dan was stationed at for Project Preserve Destiny. The so-called elephant cage was basically just a large structure which surrounded a huge antenna or receiver, and we now know this base was San Vito-Dinormany Air Station in Italy. In fact, here's a photo of it in his book Above Black. I did some research, and it turns out this massive antenna was designed to pick up high-frequency waves. Offit base in Nebraska also has high-frequency wave antennas and low-frequency wave antennas. Were these antennas in the signals they received somehow very important for the signals that Dan himself was trying to decode for the NSA? Were these satellites somehow aiding in his telepathic downloads? Did noise cancellation technologies,

possibly working with the NSA in Maryland, provide some much-needed technological assistance in filtering out the non-alien frequencies from these transmissions. Who knows? But we do know that the CIA was experimenting as early as the 60s under Dr. Andre Pujaric with extra-low or ultra-low, or sometimes called very low frequencies, for telepathic alien communication. Pujarich's work sort of met a tragic dead end. He was doing all sorts of crazy shit. In fact, he had a whole team of intuitive communicators, he called the Space Kid, who would constantly channel aliens. Poharaj's work came to a standstill,

but many have speculated that it was developed and is still ongoing today. So who knows, the entire electromagnetic wave spectrum is very, very large. Is there some slice of it that involves alien signals? Alien signals being received on these bases that Dan Sherman was then able to parse and download with his mind. And then what I, you know,

this Italian periodical writing about, Project Preserve Destiny, there has to be some sort of connection there. There is. That's very interesting. I mean, it's years apart, but yeah. Do you think the Vatican knows about this project? Hmm. I don't know.

I don't know if they would have a need to know about the project. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. What do you hope for the rest of your life? What do you, are you just, do you just want to have like a normal life from here and, you know? Well, I mean, I hope for the country that or the world, really, we find

we find the truth. Yeah. Whatever that is. And God knows, you know, today's society, the truth is whatever is being fed to you at that moment. Sure. We don't know what the truth is.

But it is my hope that we find out the actual truth behind our involvement with alien species in this world, in our world history. But I honestly. don't think it'll ever happen. Yeah. I honestly do not. I mean, the whole truth.

Sure. We may get, we may get certain things that come out. Like this, you know, the, the, the, the, NASA just recently announced that they found some sort of life on Mars. Amazing. Yeah. And, or, or evidence of previous life. Yes.

And, and even that is amazing. Yep. You know, so, but it's things like that that we might find, or we might find that aliens have been here a long time ago. but are no longer with us. You know, we may find these little things. Well, NASA was also just determined to be a spy agency by Trump. And so you have to think with some of these little announcements,

like there was already a meteorite in the 90s that, you know, Clinton came out with ALH 8401 that had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it or whatever. And so there's already this belief. And we know that Mars had a biosphere. And so there are projects that, exist like yours at the NSA where you're systematically communicating with aliens, this has to be some sort of slow drip disclosure. Like, oh, we found a little thing with some organic compounds on it or whatever, you know, that has to be coordinated. Yeah.

Well, that's just my hope. And I'm, after this podcast, I'm probably just going to go right back into my hole. I've already had, you know, since there was a book review that just, happened on YouTube just a couple days ago that it came across. I have a Google alert for my name. And so whenever somebody mentions my name, it comes up. And that came up. And so it's two people talking about the book. And just recently, there has been a lot of chatter about my book. Yeah. I don't know what kind of generated it, but it's probably what led you to it to communicate with me. Well, I've been into it for years now. What do you think about where the,

UFO like disclosure stuff is now. Like are you tracking any of the modern UFO whistleblowers like David Grush? I'm not doing anything. Okay. I answer a Twitter every once in a while like you. Yeah. And that's about it. And one person posted a picture of me, a bad picture of me.

And so I replied to him. I said, this is a better picture. It was a military picture. To the extent that my name comes up every once in a while, I'll go look at it. Sure. I'll maybe comment on it if I have a comment. But I can tell you it's ramped up. That's for darn sure.

Yeah. I mean, it's way more prevalent now. And again, I think that's because of social media. I mean, people like to talk now. And whatever the topic is, they want to talk about it. And so that's just a good fodder for talk. Has this experience opened your mind to new modalities of physics and communicate? Like, does it make you think that what we think we know in the real world?

received wisdom that were taught in schools is extremely limited? Oh, I don't know. I've always been interested in advancements and stuff like that. So when I do see an advancement or I see like that UAP thing that just with the rocket, I don't know, you feel with that with the water. Yeah, the hellfire missile. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that Eric Brose just showed in front of Congress. Yeah, I have an intellectual.

intellectual curiosity about it, but I don't necessarily correlate it with my experience. Only because I've, there's just been so much, so much over the years that, that people say, well, does that correlate with what you do?

Is that correlate with, I have no idea. You're like, I don't know, I have no idea. I have as much idea about it as you do. Did Stephen Greer ever reach out to you? I've talked with him,

I think, a couple times over the years. Because he has a whole cadre of like whistleblowers from, you know, the back. He's the one that started that project disclosure. Yeah, disclosure project. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So they've been reaching out for you. They have. Yeah, yeah, okay. Not Stephen Greer himself, but somebody else now, Stephen Greer, I think him and I talked a long time ago. Okay. But there's somebody else that's reaching out now that is talking about testimony and stuff. So, okay.

And he is in the position to get whistleblower immunity and all that. Okay. Is like somebody from the government or on the outside? Working with the government. Okay. Somebody on the outside, but working with the government to get to the right people to give the right kind of immunity so that people can feel free to say what they want to say. Would you testify before Congress?

Oh, yeah. You'd go under oath. Oh, definitely. But, but I would do it. But it's not going to, for me anyway, from my project so long ago, I don't think it's going to really reveal a lot of information. But if you were called to go, like, in a couple weeks, you've got that. I would give any information that I have.

Yeah. Well, that's awesome. And I think it's, again, for the audience to hear that level of confidence. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing, if they give me the immunity necessary, so I can talk about and not worry about talking about the stuff that I, you know, worked on. Ancillary to the Great Project. There's no reason not to.

I mean, it would be open book. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Under threat of perjury. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, yeah, this is the most nonchalant conversation I've ever had about alien telepathic communication.

How shalant can it get? Well, there's a lot of drama and, you know, it's a lot of, like, bluster often with these sorts of stories. And it's refreshing to just hear, like, you know, these are the facts. But it's been an honor to speak with you. I really appreciate you coming out here and means a lot. It's been fun.

Yeah. What do you think? I'm the final question. Bones and Spock. What do you think they wanted with humanity? Do you think they had any sort of intentions for humanity at large? Well, I think they were soldiers. I mean, not military, but like they were.

Underlings. Yeah, yeah. They were just doing their job, so to speak. Yeah. But I didn't ever get a sense of any type of anger or any type of not being gentle towards us, you know, having a nefarious motives or anything like that. And so when I do see Hollywood project, you know, the aliens are just, you know, they're out to get us or whatever, I don't really see that that's the thing.

case. I mean, imagine being so advanced that you could coexist with another species and then not know of your existence. Totally. I mean, other than the ones that you want them to know your existence and be nefarious towards us. There's no reason to be nefarious towards us. Or to put it differently, we'd be dead already. Yeah. If they were. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that they just want the best for our society and maybe that's why they haven't revealed. because the whole Star Trek mantra, you know, don't, don't interfere in other people's other societies or, you know, because you, you interject into their society, something that would not have been there naturally. So you're, you're basically an enemy of that, whatever that ecosystem is, because it's not natural. So maybe they're thinking like that. Maybe they want to not be as. as interfering as, as, well, you don't want to be as interfering as you could be if you didn't have the, um, uh, control, you know, they, they control things. So they're going to interfere to the extent

that they want to interfere. Yeah. And they haven't, they haven't chosen to interfere more than they have. So, well, speaking of Star Trek, it's like the prime directive, minimal, minimal, minimal, interference with pre-Warp drive civilization. Yeah, exactly. So that's what I was saying. Maybe your names were apt, Bach and boom. Exactly. There's a little bit of a circle there, right?

Yeah. Yeah, so I don't think they have any bad feelings or bad intentions towards us. Well, I'm excited to see where all of this goes. I am maybe slightly more optimistic than you. I think we'll never get the full, I think like, you know, the quote unquote disclosure moment people think of in their heads is actually just the start of an infinite number of further questions. Say you were shown a saucer and a hanger at Area 51 that would beget like millions of more trippy questions where you'd be like, okay, how does it fly?

Where did it come from? You know, so I think it's this never-ending sort of bottomless soup. But I do think we're going to get more controvertible evidence over the next, you know, a couple of decades than we've got. prior to that. Yeah, I mean, it's inevitable to, at some point, other things are going to come out. I mean, you can't really keep stuff like that hidden forever. Yeah. It's just not, it's not practical. But to the extent that we do get information, it's going to be, it's going to be a fun time, that's for sure. I agree. Well, cheers to that. And Dan, thank you so much for taking the time. It really means a lot. And I know you really never do this. So the fact that you really,

responded to me, mean so much and entrusted me with this. And yeah, I think people will be really amazed at the story, but also how you tell the story and how just kind of non-plussed in a refreshing way you are. Yeah. I want to thank your crew here. They're a good crew. Oh, yeah, they're great. Agreed. I want to thank Dan Sherman for his time here and to you, the audience, for making it to the end. Again, if you want a deeper dive on Project Preserve Destiny, check out our substack American Alchemy Magazine. I'm linking that in the description. And if you want to see this story, get the airtime and attention it deserves. Please spread it far and wide. Spread it to people who can take action on its implications.

Until next time, I'm Jesse Michaels, and this is American Alchemy.