American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - The UFO Kill List: Who Paid the Price? (Ft. Richard Dolan)

Episode Date: June 28, 2025

This episode dives deep into one of the most unsettling and enigmatic figures in American history, James Forrestal, the first U.S. Secretary of Defense, whose descent into paranoia and suspicious death still sparks intense speculation. Was Forrestal silenced over what he knew? Historian and researcher Richard Dolan shares how a single book launched his decades-long investigation into the UFO phenomenon, unraveling hidden threads in our historical narrative. We explore the infamous Majestic Documents, the debated authenticity surrounding them, and post WWII factions between the Air Force & Navy. The conversation moves into the murky waters of military secrecy, disinformation, and how researchers, often ridiculed and dismissed, have paid a steep personal and professional price for chasing the truth. At the heart of it all lies the reality-shattering nature of UFOs, where events like the Pascagoula abduction, backed by police recordings and credible witnesses, pierce through layers of denial and control. | Richard Dolan | YouTube ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@RichardMDolan Website ➤ https://richarddolanmembers.com/ | Sponsors | Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code AMERICANALCHEMY at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/americanalchemy -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Website ➤ https://www.jesse-michels.com/ Merchandise ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] #JesseMichels #RichardDolan #UFO #Alien #History Chapters 00:00 The Unraveling of James Forrestal 10:19 The Breakaway Civilization and Financial Discrepancies 18:58 UFOs, Military Encounters, and the Nature of Secrecy 28:41 The Role of the Navy in UFO Investigations 38:43 Historical Accounts of USOs 47:39 Crash Retrievals and Underwater Operations 57:29 The Mysterious Death of James Forrestal 01:13:36 JFK, Assassination, and the UFO Connection 01:19:19 The Dark Legacy of Nazi Science 01:20:52 Unraveling the Kecksburg Incident 01:21:14 The Aztec Crash: A Controversial Case 01:22:50 The Kingman Incident and Its Implications 01:24:04 The Struggle for UFO Disclosure 01:29:28 The Reality of Extraterrestrial Presence 01:34:22 The Media's Role in UFO Disclosure 01:40:22 Science Fiction and UFOs: A Reflection 01:44:25 China's UFO Phenomenon: A Black Box 01:51:19 The Complexity of Global UFO Research 01:53:24 The Influence of Power Structures on UFO Research 01:58:38 The Pascagoula Abduction Case 02:04:17 The Long Island Crash and Its Aftermath 02:18:15 Reflections on UFO Research and Legacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for IndeedSponsored jobs. were noticing all throughout this time that forestall seemed like he was unraveling he started developing these weird nervous tics he just said i'm being followed by strange foreign-looking men he started

dipping his fingers into glasses of water all the time and just wetting his lips i drink only distilled water or rainwater a couple of big tough navy guys grab him and throw him the hell out the window Absolutely convinced us what happened. And in the 80s, it felt like maybe the U.S. moved from a strategy of secrecy and denial to flood the zone. And flood the zone doesn't mean put out BS. It means put out partial truths and put out a lot. People did see it emerge from the water, circled their transport ship twice, totally silent. He said there were high winds.

This thing should have been bouncing around in the wind. It was rock solid. He writes in his diary at 3.30 a.m. on August 12th, 1825, the Night Watch reported this orange spherical object rise from the ocean. Let's get down to the fundamental reality here. We are dealing with a phenomenon. Yes. It is a reality-shattering phenomenon. I do believe that there's a good reason to think that we have been monitored or observed for a long time. It's not that we're being too crazy and too crazy. We're not being.

We're not going out there enough. I think that's right. Here with the great Richard Dolan, we just did this amazing kind of live show for a bunch of people. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. I told you afterwards, I think you're the easiest person to interview

because I just have to tee you off and then you just go. And yeah, it's an honor to be here. It's a long time coming for me. And maybe what we should start with here in this kind of private setting is I'm curious to know how you got into.

the UFO research to begin with and who your inspirations are. Yeah, I have a lot of inspirations in my life. Some in this field, some beyond. This is a story I've told a few times. I don't want to sound like I'm rehashing it, but I'm going to try to do it fresh. I was always like a very like driven young, young person. And I always felt like there was this very intellectualized destiny that I wanted to pursue. I didn't really know what it would be.

I've always been drawn to history and politics, discovered a real deep love of literature when I was in my early 20s, and that's remained with me. But as a young person trying to make a professional life, I thought, well, I would finish a PhD in history and teach at a university. When I was in my youngest portion of that, I was totally unqualified to try to do what I ended up doing. I was studying German history.

My German language was minimal at best. And here I was studying the, basically the J. Edgar Hoover of Otto von Bismarck's 19th century Germany back in the 1850s and 60s, a man named Wilhelm Schieber. And I'm like, oh, this is an interesting guy. And I'm diving into his career. And I thought, I'm going to do a dissertation on him. I wrote 150 pages or whatever. And it failed.

I just, it was, I was unable to crack Wilhelm Scheder. He's an interesting guy. He did blackmailed people. He created a brothel. Berlin in 1870, he would take pictures, all of this stuff. He literally was the, uh, a Jagger Hoover of German unification. Absolutely. Interesting.

And it was amazing. But anyway, so I bailed out of that. That was when the Berlin wall came down. I was, I was there. I was in Berlin during that whole period, 1989. I was trying to, trying to wrap this thing up and it just failed. So I go back to the States and, uh, and I left for about two years. I was studying at the university.

of Rochester and upstate New York. And then I went back and I thought, you know what? My German sucked. So why don't I just do like American history? Because I know that language. And I went in and I focused on United States diplomatic history. And I did great. I was really, really into it. I was very deeply. And by this time I was in my early 30, so I was a bit more mature. And I was studying Harry Truman and his presidency. And I was doing a lot of Soviet stuff too. But I ended up studying 1950 national security strategy just before the outbreak of war in Korea. And, you know, I was like, who cares? But that was what I was doing at the time. And I wrote another 125, 150 pages of a dissertation on that, which I did not finish. So I had two unfinished dissertations.

And I was in a bookstore, just like an ordinary bookstore one day in Syracuse, New York, and I saw a copy of Timothy Good's, very classic work above top secret. Oh, yeah. And it was a subtitle of that book that caught my attention. It was the worldwide UFO cover-up. Oh, wow. So, here where it's like 1994, so I'm about 32 years old, and I flipped through the book, and I'm like, I know that name.

I read his diaries. I know that department. Wait, what? UFOs? What is this? Like, it was this great cognitive dissonance. And I thought, this looks like a fairly serious book. He's got a variety of documents.

It looks like his research is at least halfway decent. And my question wasn't, are UFOs real? My question wasn't like, are there abductions or are there crop circles? I wasn't down that road. My question was simply, even if this was a mistake, like if they were mistakenly interested in this UFO thing back in, or the flying saucers back in the 40s, how could I never read about it in any academic history book, like ever?

Even if it was a mistake. Like, would you not think that's, kind of interesting. You go back to 1947, 48, and I'm reading here in Tim Goods book, like the Air Force and the Navy, like they were totally into this. And you're in the early Cold War. Yeah, that's damned interesting. And so I thought, well, I bought the book and I just went down that rabbit hole. And I thought, I just spent like two or three months. And I just want to resolve for myself, like, was this a thing or not a thing? And that was it. And then I figured, like, I would just leave and go on to my life.

And those are my favorite, famous last words. So I read Tim's book, and it was like, this is a very good book. Started going online, back with the baby internet as it existed, all the news groups. You suck. No, you suck. I'm going to kill you. You know, the bulletin boards, as they existed in the 90s. But there were some good UFO bulletin boards, and I went down that.

And the next thing I knew, I just, I left, I left the University of Rochester. and and it was a real crisis in my life because I'm in my early 30s I'm like I've got all this ambition I wanted to do something I wanted to teach at university but I just lost the belief I lost the belief in that whole system I lost the belief in academia I lost the belief that I wanted to do that anymore and I was totally obsessed with UFOs I would I would remember for an entire year I'd lie in bed staring at the ceiling, thinking all of these if-thenes, like if this is real, then, was I totally wrong about everything I thought I knew about history? What is the truth then about the Truman

administration that I was studying or Eisenhower or Kennedy? Like there had to be this whole subterranean reality that I was oblivious to. And when you're, when you think you're a smart person and you think you're well-educated, that's the hardest. Because, you're, you're, you want to like, you've got your ego there. I had my ego. Like, absolutely. I want to be like, I'm a smart guy. I think I know everything.

But wait, oh, wow, I missed this whole thing. That's not easy to admit. No, it's not when your identity is so tied up in the system. The system's giving you positive feedback until that point to just accept, you know, that sort of crumbling and finding something new, I think is really tough. But you do. You read something like Timothy Goods. you know, above top secret. And you're like, this is a whole ontology separate from, you know,

the reality that I know. And it's so well researched. And it, you know, if you associate, you know, sci ops around UFOs with like, you know, American intel. Like he's coming up from British Ministry of Defense. He starts with the Battle of Los Angeles. But he goes through like the, really, the UK history. And I'm impressed that you just can roll right through that. I mean, I just tossed Tim good out there. And you're like, yeah, yeah. Well, he's amazing. I mean, you got it, you know, like, you. You got to pay respects to your stuff. You got to pay respect. You got to know that these are canonical, I think, you know, works.

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In UFOs in the national security state, you bring up this idea of a break away civilization. And you have Catherine Austin Fitz, this former housing and urban development employee, who then went on to be a consultant, who's uncovered trillions of dollars worth of fraud. Discrepancies in accounting, yeah. Discrepancies in accounting. Yeah, there you go. That's a nice euphemism. So what is a breakaway civilization and what is the nature of the contact that we're seeing? Yeah, I haven't really thought, I haven't talked a lot about the idea of a breakaway civilization in a little while, but I still think it's probably true. And just to give a background, it was a phrase that I coined, I don't know, about almost 20 years ago now, I do a lot of

reading of other types of historians, and I was reading a story named Arnold Toynbee. Some of you know of him, he writes meta histories of civilizations, and I was kind of in that headspace, and I thought, you know, what is it that actually makes a civilization distinctive and unique? And I thought, well, it's a lot of things, there's like your social structure and your economy and your ideology, your cosmology. And I thought, you know, if you really think about the classified worlds, especially like assuming like the Roswell event or other crash retrievals happened, you have this very, very deep classified structure that keeps the technology and the science classified away from you and away from me so that we can't really look at it. And I thought, well, what did they do with those

breakthroughs in their technology? Well, they're going to learn new things and they're going to privately maybe patent them and keep them away from the rest of us and they're just in danger of running more and more away from this. Well, they have functional flying saucers one day. Can they go off world? Can they encounter other beings and all of this? And I thought, well, they're really actually kind of like a separate civilization when it's broken away from our own. And it was a totally theoretical idea. It still is, I guess, but I think there's evidence for it in a lot of different ways. And so that's what I was talking about. And I think it's a kind of a breakaway group that has its own legal protections and all of that. So I've known Catherine Austin Fitz for many years.

I absolutely admire her work. She's a brilliant financial expert, you could say. She served with the first George Bush senior administration back in the late 80s, early 90s, as Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. She told really a story. It should be funny, but it's actually. really tragic. She said, when I went into HUD, I said, I want to look at the accounting. I want to look at all the books. And they said, well, no, you're not, you're not authorized

to see that. She says, as a hell, I'm not authorized to see that. So she finally got her way, and she said, what happened when they brought in the financial records? She said, you know, the old library carts with all the books on them? She said, they wheeled in one after another filled, stacked with papers, like organized, disorganized. And she's like, God could not pull this apart. She said, you'd need the greatest accountants in the world to undo this god-awful mess. And she concluded, like, this whole system is designed

so that it is impossible to audit. And that was her start. And then she goes through four years of that, and she had her own amazing tumultuous journey, dealing with analyzing the U.S. government, and then eventually looking into, she wrote a really great paper called the myth of the rule of law.

I highly recommend it. And then she told a really interesting story about, I think in 1998, she was invited by a gentleman named John Peterson of the Arlington Institute. John Peterson was on many, many short lists for DOD, Secretary of Defense position for years. And she wrote about this and he said, we're doing a little get-together of a mini-conference to discuss what it's, what it would be like in a world where extraterrestrials are openly acknowledged as living among us. And she said the biggest regret in my life was not doing that.

She was afraid because she, at that time, she was looking at connections of the U.S. government and drug trafficking, intelligence communities, and all of this. And she knew that they were after her. And she was afraid that this was like a setup. And so she didn't do it. But I think she came to regret that. But anyway, that's Catherine.

And she's come to look at discrepancies in financial, doings of the Pentagon and the federal government in general. So back in 01, Donald Rumsfeld famously before the House Armed Services Committee in, I think July of 2001, just before 9-11. Now, the Bush administration were brand new at this time, so in a sense what he's about to say was no skin off their nose. This was really indicting the Clinton years. He said, yeah, we've looked at the Pentagon records and there's 2.3.

He kept revising it, but originally it was $2.3 trillion in unaccounted expenditures. He said, if you can believe that, chuckle, chuckle, laugh, laugh in the house. And that became $2.1 trillion on September 10th, and then came 9-11. And then you never hear about this again. That was kind of like gone. A few months later, there's a guy named Dove Zakhheim who took over the accounting of all of that. And he, this is like in 2002, and he's like, yeah, no, we got a fair. figured out, it's all done. We've just had a look at the books a little more carefully,

and it's down to zero. We have no more discrepancies. Literally, that is what he said. But anyway, so Catherine's been on top of this all these years, and then the question arises, does this mean the money's missing, or is it just you've got accounting discrepancies where you're not getting your books right? I do think a lot of it is that. It doesn't mean that $2.3 trillion got stolen, but it does mean there's a lot of opportunity for money to just go missing. And one thing she has always said is our accounting, our global financial system, she says it's like an open window. It's not a closed system. It's an open system. So in other words, the money goes out somewhere. And this is where she and I really connected

because she's like, I think that this idea of a breakaway civilization is really right on. And I think some of this money is going, a lot of this money is going to that, to support and fund and, you know, keep that whole thing secure. And I believe in her Tucker Carlson interview, she mentions your work. And he's like, where is all this money going? And she goes, well, talk to Richard Dolan. And she goes, space very vaguely. But like, you know, the implication is almost like they're using this in some of these, you know, some of this off the books UFO research.

I believe also that Jordan, that, not Jordan, John Peterson story, where they're doing a simulation of, you know, extraterrestrial contact at the Arlington Institute. This is from a researcher named Linda Thompson. It's very active on Twitter. She's great. She said that John Peterson promised to show Catherine Austin Fitz a UFO if she would stop engaging in her research. I don't think I caught that one.

That's interesting. I don't know. Yeah, interesting. Do you think... By the way, John... John Peterson and his wife along with James Woolsey, CIA director at the time, and his wife were the people who invited Stephen Greer

to a dinner in the early 90s in which Greer has many times talked about this, so I'm not really spilling any beans here. Just kind of interesting connections going on here. And I think you interviewed him. I did. Yeah. I don't know if that ever came up.

I don't know if it was an interview. But, so, So you have trillions of dollars off the books. She's talking about deep underground military bases and facilities. Do we have documentation that this exists, and how far have we made it? Presumably some of this might be getting siphoned off.

We all probably believe that there's some reality to the UFO story. Is some of this money being spent on reverse engineering UFOs? Well, all we can say is, I think so, we think so. is there proof? That's a hard thing for me to say. I don't know what I can say in terms of proof. There's a tremendous amount of good research showing that we have these so-called dumbs, deep underground military bases. I don't think there's any question that that's real. We all know that there are such things. I used to work kind of closely with a gentleman named Richard Sauter, who's done a lot of work on underground base construction. He went through

documentation. I think he made a very, very strong case. That even back in the 40s and 50s, we were looking, the military was looking strong about how to go deep. You know, partially, a lot of it's legit. You know, if they're worried about like nuclear war, nuclear exchange, how do we have secure underground facilities that are not, that are impervious to attack. But, of course, a lot of other things can happen in those things. Not just underground, but potentially in the oceans. I don't think this is necessarily impossible if you have the ability to go under the ocean floor.

at least in maybe the shelf areas, where they're a little more shallow. There's a lot of possibilities here. In terms of proof, it's difficult. A lot of this stuff is hidden very, very well. Hidden in plain sight, perhaps. But to answer your question, I don't know if I can answer it. I think all of these are somewhat unanswerable questions, but you're as qualified as anybody.

What is your opinion of these new sightings of unidentified objects? With all due respect to the Air Force, I believe that some of them will prove to be of interplanetary origin. My mind just went here and it's somewhat of a non-sequitur, but mid-century UFO stuff, I remember watching a video of you talking about a letter that FDR had written about a very destructive weapon that America had acquired and that had come from extraterrestrials.

And you thought that that was maybe a valid letter? I get in this role? Well, I'm trying to think you might, there's the so-called majestic documents. You know, one of the people at this conference where we are is Ryan Wood, who's a very good friend of mine. I've known Ryan for years. He and his late father, Dr. Bob Wood, of course, are the curators of the majestic documents, which are kind of related to the MJ12 documents to some extent. And Ryan and his dad did extensive forensic analyses of those.

Those are not just photographic negative. Those are actual pieces of paper that you can study them. But what you can say with the MJ12 documents, so they first appeared in 1984. They were probably sent from somewhere near Curtland Air Force Base, and so we know that. That's a connection to the notorious Richard Doty. And they were sent to a filmmaker and friend of Bill Moore researcher,

a guy named Jamie Shanderay, who has his own, had his own very interesting intel connections, I believe. So that's how we get them. Now, the thing is, you set the stage for this. So in the late 70s and the early 80s, the UFO field is being rocked by two major developments. So one was the recently strengthened Freedom of Information Act. So in the late 70s and through the 80s, early 80s, UFO researchers could petition the government for documents. and they were getting thousands of pages of documents related to UFOs. This was a shocking thing.

You know, all through the 50s and 60s and most of the 70s, the government agencies, CIA, FBI, military agencies said, look, we don't really, we don't do this. This is not an interest of ours. We don't really give it damn. And then suddenly thousands of pages of military failed interceptions and CIA memos and FBI investigations, like it's all there. It's like they were clearly lying.

So that's one thing. And so from that perspective alone, if you're on the side of the secrecy, you're thinking, are they going to shake the tree just enough and then the right document's going to come out and now we're screwed? Like, is that going to happen? So that was a concern. The other prong, the other threat to secrecy were the researchers who were engaging into looking in crash retrievals. People like the late Leonard Stringfield, who was the true pioneer of crash retrieval research, but also Stanton Friedman.

and also Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt and the late Don Berliner and then Tom Carey and all these people. So like there, but in the late 70s there was a lot of this was just slowly building. It wasn't, we didn't really know a lot about Roswell at that. We're just starting to talk about Roswell, but that was a threat. So these two things. And then in the wake of all of that, we get these MJ12 documents, which are allegedly memos to, to Harry Truman, or a letter signed by Harry Truman describing the formation of this organization

to manage the UFO secret, referring to crash retrievals and Roswell and all of this. And so you had a lot of skeptics, the late Philip class, a man that I think was deeply, deeply connected to the US intelligence community, in my opinion, not just mine, said, well, you know, Truman's signature, that was not his actual signature. It was identical to another one. Well, I think they were using Autopendon then as well, actually, if I'm not mistaken. I don't really know if that matters. But that was supposed to make it like fake.

It was a fake. So it was a hoax. New York Times was very happy to support that. And there are, you know, legit, strong researchers who do think it's a hoax. Robert Hastings, who you mentioned, very strong. Very strong. And he and I in the past had some disagreements about that. And I very much respect Roberts' research, so don't get me wrong there.

But he does not believe that they're legit. And a lot of people don't. I don't know. I don't feel that way. I don't know about those MJ12 documents. I don't really know where I stand on that. But I think when I look at the majestic documents that Ryan and Bob collective, you print them all out.

It's this thick. It's like an inch and a half thick. And you just try reading them sometime. I did this, you know, 20 years ago. I was afraid of looking at this for the longest time, but I thought, all right, I have to read them. I printed them all off. I put them in my own little comb-bound collection, and I just started reading them, page after page. And they are highly sophisticated, extremely sophisticated, frankly.

And so if you're thinking if this is a hoax, you have to ask yourself, who's creating this is a hoax? All right, you have documents that are through the decades, the 40s and in the 50s and in 60s, all in a very very, very like seems exactly accurate format. The data that's in them is written in exactly the correct way. So it's not some guy in his basement doing it all by himself, that's for sure. Yeah, there's documents in there and actually my memory is a little more fuzzy on this maybe than yours at this moment. But FDR did have some statements or letters, I believe, where he expressed an awareness of this phenomenon. There's another letter supposedly from Albertine's

I'm Robert Oppenheimer. Very interesting document. Yeah, I mean, those are debated and I don't spend a lot of my time really fixating on them, but I go back to them every once in a while. And I suspect that there is a lot of truth in them. I do too. I wonder if they, you know, you know the name James Jesus Angleton, of course. Oh, yes, yes.

So, you know, one of the founders of the CIA, kind of an Alan Dulles, acolyte, very deceptive and devious. He ran U.S. counterintelligence. for several decades. Several decades and seemed very involved in the UFO issue. And this is really interesting. He was actually stationed in Italy at the time, or his father was, Hugh Engleton, at the time of the Magenta crash in 1933,

which is really crazy. I really recently learned this. Maybe they get that with you in Malmgren's interview. I think maybe that's where I picked it up. But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the UFO story as well. Well, what I'm saying is, yeah, they did because the Angleton was there. And so it's interesting, you know, I've heard, and I don't know if this is true,

that maybe he had something to do with the MJ12 leaks. And in the 80s, it felt like largely maybe the U.S. moved from a strategy of, you know, secrecy and denial to flood the zone. And flood the zone doesn't mean put out, you know, BS. It means put out partial. truths and put out a lot, put out a lot of truths. That is the way disinformation works. This is something we, I'm really glad you bring this up because, uh, what is disinformation? It's not the same as lies. Mm-hmm. You know, like, so let's say we're on the inside and we've got this secret to

protect and we are afraid, like at some point this is going to come out. So how do we deal with this? So maybe you put it out, but you sandwich it between things or you stick at least one thing in there that can be factually demonstrated to be a hoax or a lie. Um, and that's, you know, that's, you know, and inoculations. Like you get inoculated against a disease by getting part of a virus, but it's deadened, and your body recognizes it and can fight it. So it's like you become inoculated against the truth. The truth is put out there, but it's sandwiched in such a way that it's not credible. I love that. You say you're immune to it. And it's interesting. I think you have Blue Book where it's just kind of rationalized, explain the whole thing away. The

Condit Committee sort of kills it. And then in 74, seems to flip and they create, you know, UFO's past, present, and future. And from then on, there seems to be this kind of outward openness on the part of the DoD around, you know, UFOs. And in the, in the 80s, it feels like, you know, you have Rick Doty doing all his stuff and you have, you have this sort of flood the zone. Like, we're actually going to actively promote and see if, and this is peak cold war. I would say yes and no. I mean, you know, officially the Pentagon throughout the 70s and 80s and 90s was like no this is nonsense sure do this at all so officially speaking there was never any uh to my knowledge a genuine promotion of a UFO reality coming from that

institution so i just say that but there were let's call them shenanigans going on and you know we've learned about richard dote which is a really weird topic for me because um i actually met richard Jody wants. Okay. He's extremely gracious, genuinely, like, he's a nice guy when you meet him. Yeah. And I know. I'm sure he's extremely likable.

That was his job. He is. So you got to be, but right, that doesn't mean he's truthful, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do know for a fact that he has very high respect from within a lot of his colleagues from the intelligence community. And from the, you know, the peripheral, like scientists and people who have worked with him, they like him.

They respect him. His own father was, I don't know all the details, but was deeply involved in Area 51 and with UFOs. I didn't know that. Yes, yes. And Richard Doty was kind of brought into that

as a young officer or young military person. So he, like when he says these days, like he knows it's true, which he says many times. Like I think he's telling the truth on that. Yeah. He is saying he knows it's true

because he does know it's true. You know, in the early, 80s, late 70s, early 80s, and I'm not here to defend this, but he was doing his job. Look, he was in the military. His job was to, I assume, protect certain secrets that were at by Curtin Air Force Base and the like. Paul Benowitz was a very highly intelligent man looking at some of them, and that's what Doty did. So he did kind of lead Benowitz astray there.

Doty also first shows up, this is kind of a little known thing about Doty. In 1977 Ellsworth Air Force Base, Mario Woods has an experience where he, he is, according to his hypnotic regression, abducted, at the very least, he ends up 10 miles away from Ellsworth Air Force Base with Marx on his body and his partner, Michael Johnson, in a catatonic state. He then goes through this whole debrief session and guess who's there, Rick Doty. And so it is interesting that I think if you're into UFO stuff, you know, the Mario Woods case seems pretty legit to me. It's in a line of, you know, all the Robert Hastings, UFOs and nukes. Yeah. And then you have Doty show up, you know, a couple of years later and he's definitely sciopping, you know, Benowitz. Yeah. And there's an, there's a document of Ann Ellsworth there,

which has been manipulated and that's been traced back to Doty. So at least I'm pretty sure. So, you know, the thing is, well, I'm not, I'm, I'm not going to, like, condemn. And I try not to wag the finger too much at people. Like, it's easy to do that. Everyone's got a job to do. Yeah. We have a job to do, which is to get past the BS and to try to understand the truth. Yeah. And. Well, I always say it's dangerous enough just going for the truth.

So don't go ad hominem against like, yeah, there are people where it's like it's obvious that they're sort of counterintel or whatever. Right. Right. But like it would be one thing if they were clearly leading you astray on a single thing consistently. And you're like, come, dude, stop doing that or whatever. But I think, you know, some people want you to stop your pursuit of. truth in order to just antagonize those counterintel people or whatever. And then you're sort of losing, you're going to get less close to the truth. Right. And you're going to nuke yourself.

And it's just like, so it's like, what do you want? Like we all, we've all grown up. We all know the government does all kinds of stuff and lies and lies. I started saying this probably before many other people. I've been on this for a long time. Of course, I did a whole study. on the history of false flags a few years ago. And so yes, we know there's shenanigans and they never stop, but is every single thing in up? And what I'm hearing are like some people out there, like they, it's almost like there's the implication is

the government wants us to believe in UFOs now, therefore they want, and they want us to believe in aliens now, therefore it must all be black budget special ops, That's right. The whole alien thing is a ruse. And I'm like, that is so wrong. Yeah, yeah. You are so wrong if you do that and you're going down a very incorrect path.

Yeah, well, it's this reflexive. If the government says something, I'm going to put a minus sign against it. Right. And so you're going to be totally thought controlled as a result. If you have some, and maybe there is some, it is important to have the hermeneutic understanding of where the government stands on a thing. But there is no, the government. There's the whole thing.

That's true. They're factions. Everyone's talking like, oh, the government. But what you have is. I mean, look, the Pentagon alone is a trillion dollars a year. It's a mountain of labyrinths and fighting bureaucracies. And I can tell you for a fact, you go back to the earliest UFO history, and there's always been factional wars on this subject within the military,

within the intelligence community. They don't all agree on policy. They have never agreed on policy. In the 1940s and early 50s, there were factions that wanted openness on UFOs from within that military. We know that read the old books by Donald Kehoe. He actually lays it out very well. So that was the case then. It is the case now.

And there are people, we'll just mention Lou here again, who within that system who support openness. And there are other people who absolutely do not enable fight to the last, you know, the last battle that they can. So that's the fact. And so when you're getting messages coming out of there, it's not like a year. unified system. It's like, who's the faction that's speaking there? Yeah. It's a war that is going on. And we need to understand this. Yes. They don't understand that there's a war going on inside our establishment right now, which is in real trouble. Yep. Okay. There's a lot of desperation on a lot of fronts, UFOs and beyond. That's going to breed factional disputes galore and hard,

you know, battle plans from within to disable the other side. Totally. Totally. understand that. Totally. I couldn't agree more. And I think there are probably less outright liars in the space than people trying to front run the truth. So you see disclosure's going to happen. Maybe you have to get in front of it or something. And so I think there are all sorts of, you know, factions battling on that front. Speaking of secret science, which I agree with you, I think the second you look at this topic for a week plus, you realize that there probably is secret science going on. And there's a real UFO phenomenon going on. And those two are two disparate threads. We spoke on the phone once about Thomas Townsend Brown. I don't know if you

remember this. Oh, a little bit, yeah. And you told me an interesting story. What the hell did I say? I can't. I remember what I said. I talked about how his work might have made it into the B2 stealth bomber and then you got an interesting anecdote. Oh yeah, I do. Yeah. Okay, so I'll tell this. This is true. Yeah. So back in 2008, I was at a conference in, uh, was it in Vegas or in I think in Las Vegas. So, yeah. And I met with a brilliant, very cool, retired Air Force colonel with a Ph.D. So he had a very strong knowledge of the UFO topic.

He, we had a lot of interesting conversation. I met him, and I met his wife, too. He was really nice lady. So we sat down and one of the things he said is he was part of the B-2 stealth bomber project. And I said, oh, I was so, like, young, I was so enthusiastic. And I just read a paper by Paul Lavollette, who was a researcher on electrogravetics and had things to say about the B-2 stealth bomber, having incorporated, essentially basically principles of electrogravityx to give it a form of lift, an additional kind of lift. So, yeah, so I'm sitting with this colonel and I'm like here and he's like closer to me than you are right now. And also we were in a pretty crowded area.

So there's like people milling about, you know, and I'm not recording anything. We're just talking. And I said, yeah, have you heard this paper by Paul Lavalette talking about electro-gravitics as part of the B-2? And he was so nice. But at this moment, he literally put his hand out like this. It's stop. And he looked this way, and he looked this way, and he leaned forward, and he just whispered, that's bullshit.

And he wouldn't talk anything more about it. And as soon as he said that, I thought, all right, that's got to be true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's got to be true. That's kind of a telltale sign. Definitely. Yeah, it was very interesting moment. I didn't think I would hit a sore spot like that or something that's sensitive,

but it was clearly very sensitive. Yeah. It's so fascinating. And as a good segue to, you know, your current work on U.S.S. submersible objects, Thomas Townsend Brown was actually a Navy guy. Yeah. And it seems like, you know, he was in the Navy, I think, from like 1933 to 42. And it seems like the Navy knew a thing or two maybe about UFOs before the Air Force actually did.

It's totally possible. Yes, absolutely. For example, one U.S. account, which actually the account that started me on this book project that I'm in, nearly done. I did the first volume, that's out. Two and three are coming out. Was an account right by the Aleutian Islands near a little island called Adak Island in the summer, excuse me, of 1945. So the Pacific War was still happening. The European War was done by then. and there was a U.S. transport ship called the Delorov, which was coming back from Japan to Seattle,

and it was passing by, still in the middle of ocean, but north of it, the closest Aleutian island was this place called Adak. You can look it up on Google Earth. And according to the primary witness who was interviewed, a man named Robert Crawford, and he spoke with a number of researchers, including Dr. James McDonald, is kind of a legend himself. Anyway, Crawford said, yeah, the crew, they saw this. He didn't see the object come from the water. He saw it right after that. But other people did see it emerge from the water.

It's a disc-shaped object, about 200 feet in diameter, circled their transport ship twice, totally silent. He said there were high winds. This thing should have been bouncing around in the wind. It was rock solid, totally stable. And then it zipped off to, I think, the east or the south. Southeast so fast and he said you could see this flash of light as it left. So that's that's US Navy. You have just documented 670 something unidentified submersible object cases. You've created

this whole database and taxonomy around them. Which case shocked you the most and oh there's some very excellent ones. One of the early ones did shock me. It was from 1825 and and it was in the South Pacific. So it was a British vessel called the HMS Blonde. There's a naturalist on board. I liken it to, in the movie Master and Commander, there was that great buddy of Russell Crow, the doctor. And so I think of him as this type of a guy.

So he's the naturalist. He wrote a diary. His name is Andrew Bloxham. And he kept a very detailed account of the travels of this ship during this. They actually went from, Hawaii to the UK, back to Hawaii, and then down to the Cook Islands and on the way to South America. And so on the return trip from Hawaii, they're passing the Cook Islands. And he

writes in his diary at 3.30 a.m. on August 12th, 1825. It was 200 years ago. He said, the night watch reported this orange spherical object rise from the ocean at 7 degrees. He said, it lit the deck of the ship so bright you could pick a pin off the deck. It then descended back into the water and then rose a second time and then descended into the water. And what's interesting, you could find this as a PDF online, you could look it up. And he, you know, before all of that, this is like just really detailed account of the travel. It's very meticulous. And after that it's very like conventional, very meticulous.

Interesting. He published this as a diary at the time. So it's been in publication for 200 years. And there's just this one entry of this. He said it was red, hot like a cannon shot. It was, I think, about the size of the moon or the sun, although there was no moon out that night. So there's no confusion with that.

And that's it. It's just this bizarre thing. I read this and like, holy crap. And what I like to pair it with another encounter from 150 years later involving a United States aircraft carrier. the USS John F. Kennedy, which was in July 2nd, 1971, it had just finished doing a series of qualification tests, which they do periodically to stay current.

And we have this account from the man who ran communications at that time. His name is James Kopp with a K. And he wrote about this several times around 2000, 2001. He spoke to the Disclosure Project in 2000, so he's on record for that. So anyway, this is what he says. July 2nd, 1971, it's 8.30 at night. He's running the comms, and he said all the inbound communication starts spouting gibberish. He's like, hmm, what's going on? And then he's on the intercom, some sailor like freaking out, screaming, it's God, it's the end of the world. That's what he hears. Yeah. So that gets attention. So he goes out. and outside to see a glowing orange, like roiling orange, yellowish, reddish. I'm thinking he said it was the size of a beach ball

at arm's length, which would be quite big. It was just above the ship or maybe off to the side. It wasn't totally clear. He said, I'm standing there watching this for about 20 seconds. A lot of other people, he said, sailors were, one guy, he said he had to be sedated. This was a really intense moment. And then the ship goes to battle station, general quarters, battle stations.

So he had to go back to his comm. And he didn't see it after that, but for the next 20 minutes, the ship was on battle, on general quarters. And he stated that the weapons systems went offline. He learned later. And trying to think what else. That was essentially it. So no communications, no weapons. And then that ended.

And he doesn't know how this departed because he didn't get to see it. But that's his story. And then he actually said by the time we got into port a few days later, the only discussion about this at all was from the ship's captain. He got on the ship's intercom and said, well, as you all know, certain things happen aboard a U.S. naval vessel that have to remain on the vessel and not to be discussed anywhere else. I hope I made myself clear, you know, something like that.

And that was it. That was it. But what was interesting made me think of it is that this was, I mean, it sounded like it could have been the exact same type of thing that Andrew Bloxham, back in 1825 was describing, this spherical object. And I guess I'll just say, you know, we hear a lot of people talking these days about orbs and spheres. And I have to say, and noticed a large number of U.S.O encounters do involve these kinds of orb-like spherical objects, which frequently, and certainly I think in the case of the, JFK engage in some kind of electromagnetic interference. And there's a lot of that. A lot of that goes on.

I guess I'll just add, when I finished doing all of these cases and hunting them down in all of these disparate sources and just generally wanting to breathe life into them, most of these were completely forgotten cases. But I had a lot of long conversations with my wife, Tracy, about this, and she said, you know, you should really look at, I'd pull out some relevant categories for each of these cases. And I did that.

I pulled out each case like 15 different categories, like special effects from there. Was it at daytime or at nighttime? What was the shape of the object and all of this? And what I noticed, after looking at all of the statistics, and I put a very amateurish spreadsheet together, large, large, but amateurish spreadsheet, but it helped me to see patterns.

And I noticed about 10% of all the cases involved, EM interference about one out of ten. It's caught a lot. But one, that percentage is doubled when I looked at the military cases. So there was a two-x likelihood that a military encounter would have electromagnetic interference. I'll just add one other thing about that in the few cases where people reported missing time with the USO encounter, and there are such, or sightings of a being in connection to a USO, and there's a few of those. Those. Those instances are four times as likely to report electromagnetic interference. When I looked at these numbers, I mean, maybe my data sample is small.

I don't know, but it's as large as, you know, whatever it is. But it makes me think that these EM encounters, they're not accidental. They're kind of a tool, maybe a weapon. Like, they're not, it's not a random thing. So I'm getting a little off track here, but it was fascinating going into all of these, looking at these trends and these relationships that exist within these sightings

there's an intelligence and those guys, they know what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing. Do we have a USO crash retrieval program? The thing that comes to mind for me is I think Howard Hughes had like a, it was like a front company for the CIA, it was called like Global Marine Corporation

and out of that came the Glomar Explorer. Right. And, you know, We know that we've retrieved exotic technology from the ocean floor, so have we possibly retrieved U.S.Os? I think yes. I believe that's probably a yes. The Glomar Explorer, yeah, this huge corporation, they actually recovered a sunken Soviet submarine in the 1970s.

And it was an incredible feat because they went down something like three miles down to the Pacific floor. They got it. It broke, but they recovered half of it. They actually gave a proper military burial to some of the Soviet sailors that they recovered. So that was an incredible thing. And in terms of recovering discs, I received a communication from a gentleman who was former U.S. Navy. He told me about having attended a conference,

not this one, but another excellent one, the International UFO Congress, a really great place there. And he said, you know, I'm hanging outside, and I runs this other Navy guy between lectures, and we were just chatting. And this guy was a board, the USS Nautilus submarine. So that was the first nuclear-powered submarine.

And he said, you know, the Nautilus went through a retrofitting or a refitting, excuse me, in the mid-60s, which is true. We know about this. And he said, one thing that we did is we had like this, we created this hatch, this side hatch, to be able to acquire objects that were just unknown, unknown objects in the ocean. Now, I mean,

The guy, like, wrote to me, and then he never really was able to follow up with this Navy guy, so he lost that whole thread. So he wrote to me, and we went back and forth on it, and I reported that. It's in my first volume here. I don't know if this is true or not, like, because a Navy submarine is not going to be able to go down to the ocean, the bottom of the ocean floor. That is way too deep. But it can. You know, about 10 or 15 percent of our oceans are basically ocean shelf. And that might be a different thing, and you might be able to.

to have a submarine kind of work that area if this is a true thing. Definitely, look, we have a long, long history. Crash retrievals is a really strong interest of mine personally, and there is no question. We've had a number of crash retrievals or recoveries of these UAP. We could do a whole interview on that, frankly. There's just a lot to say about that. Now those are retrievals that we know about from land. You know, the waters of this world are much more remote to us and much more mysterious, and I don't think a lot of these stories come through. I did, there is one gentleman that I did speak to many years ago.

His name is David Noble, Whitehorse, and he was, did you want to talk about this? Yeah, we did. I thought we did, yeah. So, did you interview him? No, but it made its way into the Malmgren thing. that I did. And then I realized it was actually, you know,

I think there, yeah, it was a whole can of worms. But this, I think it was a year before, Melmogre. I think that was actually a little off. It was one year, because it was,

it wasn't Blue Gild Triple Prime. I think it was one year before. Yeah, yeah. And he's a really interesting character. He is a great guy. I interviewed him, I don't know, 15 years ago,

and I can't even remember how I found him, but we talked extensively. And he was, a member of a board a US ship called the Finch back in 1962. They were involved in what became Blue Gilllis Triple Prime. Part of what is called Operation Dominic, you can look this up. And there's a series of high altitude nuclear detonations. This is at the peak of like we were just going crazy detonating these

massive hydrogen bombs. It was crazy. So he said it was October, this is like right around the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. October 25th, 1962. They were off a little place called Johnston Island, which is about 500 miles off of Hawaii out in the Pacific. And he said we did a detonation. He said we often would have bogies in the atmosphere before we would do a detonation, like

that is UFOs, and they would always disappear just before we would detonate the bomb. So they're hanging out, checking it out, evidently. He said on this occasion, so we had to do the detonation, and we were all ordered below deck. This is protocol. And then, to his surprise, some of the officer or some other guy comes down and says, you, you, you and you, and you. I want you out now. Out on the, I think, the port side, one of the sides.

He says, you are now to face forward. You are not to look to the left. You are not to look to the right. Just look ahead of you and observe. And they're like, okay, whatever. Orders are orders. And so what they see is this long. cigar-shaped object zooming by horizontally.

And that's all he saw. Then he was doing a cross-train with radar. So later that day or evening, he's talking to the radar guys, and they're all talking about the bogey. That seemed to be shot out of the sky. And this is clearly what he saw. And it landed at some point in the Pacific, and they were sending a series of ships to go

and see about trying to recover it. It's fascinating. So actually, I did a little research. I think the Finch might have been an earlier operation Dominic test. We can workshop this live. I don't know. Anybody could search. But I have a lot of reason to believe that there were anomalous objects that came out.

Actually, Bob Jacobs, 1964, you know, Vandenberg case. He was stationed at Johnson-N-Toll a few months before the Vandenberg case where he saw, he was a photo instrumentational specialist. He was on Big Sur and he saw a UFO rapper on Atlas A-DF. That's right. That's right. Only two years apart. And he said it was, you know, ubiquitous water cooler conversation that a UFO shootdown

was being used as a cover for shooting down a Soviet nuke. The scuttle bit at the time by every single person on that island when I got there, this was engineers, technicians, my airmen who had been down there before me, we were told that what happened is the Soviets had launched a nuke into orbit up above us. And JFK told Khrushchev, take that down. So I found that to be an extremely interesting, another firsthand testimony. That's wacky. And this was around Blue Gild Triple Prime.

So this was, that was, you know, this detonation that had happened a year earlier. And then you have the whole Malmgren testimony, which I think is very important as well. I want to ask you, so this begets all sorts of questions. around secrecy, you know, everybody talks about the Air Force. You have in 1947, Twining writing this memo, you know, he's the head of Air Material Command for the Air Force, and he's expressing kind of earnest confusion as to how UFOs work, but he says they're, you know, real and not visionary or fictitious. The Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intel organization in the U.S., you know, 1890s.

You know, they call it the silent service, the Navy. What does the Navy know and how deeply embedded are they in this issue? Even the reports that came out, I think, in 2020 and 2021, were Office of Naval Intelligence led. Yeah. Yeah. Navy, I think, has been deeply, deeply involved in this from the beginning. It took me a long time, even researching this for years, to fully appreciate just how deep their involvement was.

If you go back and look at some of the original books that were published by people like Donald Kehoe, He's one of the people that kind of was my springboard. He kind of talks a lot about this. Akiho was a Marine, so associated with the Navy. And so he knew a lot of top Navy brass. He was friends with many admirals. And so we had a real ear to what was going on there and described quite frequently the rivalry

between the Navy and the Air Force. This is very well known. I mean, after the Second World War, the Air Force was the new organization. They had a lot of prestige. They were the only branch that had nuclear weapons. The Navy wanted their own nukes. They eventually got it.

There was something around 1949 or so-called the revolt of the admirals. This was a big political fight between the Navy and the Air Force. So there was all this kind of bureaucratic institutional rivalry that already existed. But it also had to do with the flying saucers, as they were being called back then. The Air Force was getting all the attention. but one thing that Kehoe wrote about, even back then, was like, Navy people were having UFO encounters, and the Navy personnel would get really angry because Air Force people would come on the Navy ships and throw their weight around and take over the investigations.

And the Navy guys were really resentful of this. The Secretary of the Navy in 1950 was a guy named Dan Kimball. He had his own UFO sighting. So he was flying in duel with a... Admiral Arthur Radford, who's quite famous. They were flying out from California to Hawaii in 1950. I think it was 1950. Yes.

And Kehoe wrote about this. So what happened was Kimball's plane and Radford's plane were both accosted by an object that circled around their aircraft. They were like a number of miles apart, but they both had this happen. And as a result, Kimball decided we are going to have our own separate investigation of this, the hell with the Air Force. But at least according to what Kehoe learned it didn't seem to take off, didn't really go anywhere. But the rivalry was always there.

I think Ross Colthart is somewhere here, and he ended up having a conversation with Nat Kobitz, who was Director of Science and Technology for the Navy. And this is at the end of Nat's life. I think he was dying of cancer. And he said that he had seen UFO technology at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. And it was involved these sort of, you know, bonded metals that were fabricated at the atomic level and set all sorts of other interesting stuff. Yeah, I've heard about this. I've not actually listened to it yet. And I'm kind of really excited about doing that. General Eisenhower is called back to duty. Meeting defense secretary James Forrestall to discuss many vital questions.

So one other kind of interesting axis around that time, Navy, James Forrestall. So James Forrestall is a secretary of Navy before becoming Secretary of Defense. meeting a very mysterious untimely death. He was murdered. Okay, let's hear that. He was absolutely murdered. Did he have anything to do with the UFO? Maybe, yeah, probably. Okay, probably. Yeah, so Forrestal, this was one of my real pet projects when I broke into this field. And Forrestle was a fascinating guy. He was a very brilliant man, of course, kind of a financial wizard. I think he played football at Princeton back in, you know, as an undergraduate. So then he becomes, after he makes his fortune, he becomes one of those so-called dollar a year men

under FDR for the war, basically to support the war effort. He becomes under Secretary of the Navy and then Secretary of the Navy at the end of the war. And he was actually one of these guys. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. for your ambition for citizens back is who fought against a strong secretary of defense position when when um we were going through the reorganization in 1947 national security act uh kind of a total let's like we're done with the republic we're creating the empire now people and we got to reorganize the whole military system forestall fought tenaciously for it naval independence under a unified secretary of

defense. And the real issue was, does the SEC DEF have budgetary authority over the independent services? That's really where the power is. And Forrestov particularly fought so well that he won that battle, and the Secretary of Defense originally did not have the authority to tell the Army and the Navy and the Air Force what their budget would be. He didn't have that capability. So he was a weak sect. And then irony of ironies, Forrestle ends up in that position as Secretary of Defense. So he, for his entire two and a half year tenure in that role, one of the biggest problems he had with Truman, we tend to forget this, was that that Truman wanted to cut the military budget significantly.

At the same time, he wanted to expand U.S. military presence globally. So it's kind of a disconnect there. and the joint chiefs were saying like $15 billion a yard of your mind, which of course that's nothing today, but at the time it was also not very much. They wanted like $30 billion, I think. And Farsall sided with them, but he was kind of stuck because Truman's just like, just make it happen. And so they had a very unhappy relationship over that.

Then at the same time, we have the flying saucers making their appearance in the military. world and in the American psyche it's like we're talking about it and this was something that he was definitely very aware of it was impossible not to be I read Forrestle's published two volume diaries which were published after his death we'll get to his death in a second and of course there's not a not a mention of UFOs or flying sauces in there and anyway so what ended up happening so Forrestle and Truman their relationship became rocky Truman's up for re-elected in 1948 everyone's like sure he's gonna lose Thomas Dewey the Republicans sure win and and Forrestal bad move had met with Dewey and it got out and Truman was pissed like you betrayed me

but anyway so if Truman wins shocks the world tells forestall shortly after that you're done I think in January 49 I says you're out you're out and they give but you know publicly they give Forrestle this nice going away ceremony

is like you're a great American and all this stuff and this is the crazy thing so this is January 49 Forrestle leaves this ceremony and gets into a limousine and in the limousine is the secretary of the Air Force

Stuart Symington Now Simington was like one of Forrestle's major political enemies. Forrestle was convinced, and I bet he was right, that he was being followed. Symington was probably involved. There was a journalist back then named Drew, Pearson, who was writing stories about Forrestle. And people were noticing all throughout this time that Forrestle seemed like he was unraveling.

He started developing these weird, nervous tics. He was said, I'm being followed by strange, foreign-looking men. He's looking around. He's very paranoid. He started dipping his fingers into glasses of water all the time and just wetting his lips. Like there's some weird thing going on with him. So he gets out of this meeting and he goes into the limo and there's Stuart Symington who they hate each other. And all that we know is that Simington said, I want to talk to you about something.

No one, to my knowledge, knows what actually happened on the limo ride back. they were going back to Forrestle's office. But what we do know is that when Forrestle got out of that limo, he goes into his office, closes the door, and he's shut in there for like hours. Finally, his secretary knocks on the door and she opens a door, and he's sitting in his chair. He's just staring at like this blank wall,

and he's repeating one. sentence what is it you are a loyal fellow so he's out of it so they start making the phone calls you know and suddenly the team comes and they collect him and they fly him down to hobie sound in Florida and he's there for I think six weeks five no maybe less than that a few weeks it's been a little while since I've remembered that said I got into all of this at one point down there, he apparently were told, tried to hang himself with his belt. That failed.

They bring in an army psychiatrist by the name of Manager. I think William Manager. He was kind of famous. He had a clinic. And then one of his friends, Robert Lovett, a future Secretary of Defense himself, goes to visit him. And apparently

Forrestle's first things to love it, first words were Bob, they're trying to kill me. So then they fly him. back up to Maryland to the Bethesda Naval Hospital there. I think it's 16 floors. Against all the advice of the attending physicians, they take him to the top floor. Because if this guy's suicidal, that's the last place you should take him. He should be on the ground floor. But no, National Security people said top floor. So he's sequestered there. Now he's visited by a few

interesting people. We all know. Truman, yeah. Oh, one thing they certainly did is a grabbed his diaries. Like, that's not making it out. They expunged the shit out of those diaries because they were ever published. But Truman, Forrestal's successor, Lewis Johnson, Lyndon Baines Johnson, a young guy named John Fitzgerald Kennedy. And who else? Forrestle's own brother, William, was not, did see him, finally was able to see him

after a long, long time. Forrestle was never allowed to see his spiritual advisor, a chaplain by the name of Shihi, Father Shihi. What guy in a hospital is not allowed to see his priest or rabbi or a spiritual minister? Like, that's kind of weird, right? Forrestle wasn't allowed.

So anyway, he's there for, I think, that's six weeks, yeah. And he's getting better. He develops a friendship with one of his Navy corpsmen guards. Like they're an eight-hour ships outside his door, you know. And one of them, they just strike up a really good relationship. And Forrestle says, you know, when I'm out of here, I want you to be my assistant.

So this is really a good thing. So he's thinking about the future. And but his brother William, was it William or Henry? Yeah, Henry. Yeah. He is angry. Yeah. That the Navy's not letting his brother.

brother out. Oh, and meanwhile, over in that whole last week, Forrestle's main attending physician was out at a conference. So the hen house has no protection here. Really. So anyway, Henry calls the hotel, the hospital, and he's staying, I think, at the Watergate Hotel. Okay, wow. Is that where it was? Yeah. Or that's where it was. And he calls them and he says, if my brother is not a out by tomorrow. God damn it, I'm going in and I'm going to raise holy hell and you're not going to like what I have to say. So that was the, that was May 21st, 1949. And on the night of May 21st, going into the 22nd, that's when James Forrestle did his 16th floor bungee jump out the window. So what happens? So what we know is that Forrestal's Navy Corman, who he was pals with,

who had the midnight shift, somehow went AWOL and was gone. Uh-huh. No explanation. A new guy comes in. And at 1.30 to 145, we are told, he opened the door to check in on the secretary on Forrestall. And he sees Forrestall up in his bed, and he's reading a book, and he looks like he's taking notes, this type of thing. He asked, would you like a sedative? And this is according to his testimony.

Forrestle said no. I'm good. And according to the replacement, Corman, he said the next time I went in there, he was gone. Well, he had gone out the window. So what apparently the official story is that Forstel is transcribing an ancient Greek play, the death of Ajax. It's actually really amazing stuff. But. Sophocles, right? Or who is it? That's Sophocles, yeah. That's a Sophocles one. and he stops transcribing in the middle of one word, Nightingale, I think, stops in the middle of it and decides apparently that he must kill himself at this very instant. Wow.

So he, according to the official story, gets up, and I think there's a shower where he could have done this more easily, but he didn't do that. He leaves his room, goes out into the hallway, there's a little window there, behind a radiator, you know, the radiators that were ubiquitous back in those days. And he takes his bathrobe cord, ties it very tightly around his neck, ties the other end, not so tightly, I guess, around the radiator. And think of this is a weird way to kill yourself. Tries to hang himself outside the window?

Yeah. No suicide. I don't think anyone's ever tried to do that. No. So according to the official story, cord slipped off the radiator and he just plunges to his death. Right. Now, let's look a little more realistically here. How difficult would it be? I mean, Forrestle had been very athletic as a younger man, but he was small. Yeah. A lot more frail. He wasn't really doing great. A couple of big tough Navy guys

or big tough young guys grab him and throw him the hell out the window. Then tie the bath rip to the radiator after the fact. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds pretty. I'm absolutely convinced. That's what happened. And then this is 14 years before the, the assassin's the, of John F. Kennedy. So you have a country that is, they're going to believe every single thing the military says. They just won World War II. Yeah. They're national heroes. And what they said, they immediately said, it's a suicide. They followed up with a kind of investigation, which I read the transcript, most of it anyway, the Willa Cuts review, or thing is called. They actually interviewed the Navy Corman who was on duty. You'd think like, this is your main guy. You got to really

grill this guy. I think he was in for like 15 minutes and gone. Like, wow. Like, thank you for your testimony, young man. You can go. Whoa. There was no, no, no, no investigation, no critical examination. I believe Forreston, JFK actually knew each other from the Marshall Plan much earlier, actually. They had had some interactions, which is a interesting thread of history. You know, well, I'm not sure how much I knew about that. So, and I believe that, though. It's so fascinating. Another, another, another forestall thread. possibly related to UFOs is I believe one of his direct reports was Admiral Richard Bird.

And so you have Operation High Jump. Yeah, right. That would be Bird, yeah. And 46. And you have, you know, off the coast or down the coast of Argentina, you have this big fleet of American ships. Yeah. Going for, I don't really understand what the story is. Like, it's a very weird story.

Yeah. I don't even know if I believe the high jump thing. I think I don't. Do you believe, like when you say you believe the high jump thing? of things you believe it was even a mission to begin with no no I think it was but I don't believe they ran to uh basically like space laser Nazi flying I don't think I do no yeah and and um because I remember I read birds full statement that he gave and if you really read the whole thing I don't think he's really talking about flying saucers there was a was a death or more than a one death a couple I mean it's

very difficult conditions down in Antarctica so that's one thing but my my thing is like if they ran it if they were chased away by super advanced technology. Well, like a year and two years and three years later, like we went right, we went back to Antarctica. It's not like we didn't go back there. Right. So maybe there are details that I'm missing and I will fully, like, look, if someone is able to show me a really strong case for it, I'll change my mind in a heartbeat.

I'm not committed, but I, to like thinking it's prosaic, but I just don't know that I'm convinced it's, um, that they're into not. Yeah, it's really spotty. I think he came back and he gave a speech, but it's unclear. He said we're living in a new world now where from pole to pole, danger can come. Right. I'm paraphrasing probably badly.

But he's talking about the fact that we have nuclear weapons and there will be delivery systems. Everyone knew it was all going to happen. Yeah. And that's a smaller, we're living in a smaller world in a dangerous world. I don't know that he was talking about aliens. Yeah. Or, you know, whatever. We choose to go to the moon.

this decade and do the other things. Not because they are easy, but because they are hard. You have Danny Sheehan in the audience here, the great Danny Sheehan, who's done incredible research around this. Do you think, you just actually did a great show on this on your podcast.

Do you think there is a connection between JFK's assassination and UFOs? I do. We just had an 80,000 document drop that was less helpful than, I mean, it's like, well, I'm more confused, you know, afterwards than going out. Like, I'd rather just listen to

Danny on it. I like into JFK's murder to Agatha Christie's murder on the Orient Express in which, spoiler alert, everyone killed the guy. There was, there were more than one motive. There were many, many motives to assassinate President Kennedy. Many.

He was a threat on every level you can imagine. You know, my wife and I just rewatched JFK, Oliver Stone's great movie. Just like less than a month ago. I'm really glad back into the left, remember that. But that was a great movie. And see, he brought up the Vietnam connection, which I think is legit. He also brought up Operation Mongoose. That's the whole Cuban operation. That's absolutely part of it. He didn't bring up some other things like there's the whole Federal

Reserve connection. Pan Kennedy was a threat on that. And the whole nuclear connection, where I think that, this was brought up in the movie, where Kennedy really was interested in a kind of a nuclear reduction and maybe disarmament to some extent. So Kennedy was the guy who, made the mistake of thinking just because he's president that he was actually running the show. He goes up against this national security establishment that was like, no way, we're not going to you are like a traitor communist. That's how they saw him. And we're going to have to kill you to protect this country. That's their rationalization. But the UFO subject, yes, this is, I think absolutely must be brought into it. The interview that you're referring to is with a gentleman who's

here. His name is Philip Lavelle, and he's a very good friend of ours. He's not a published author on JFK, but he knows that assassination as well as any person alive, no lie. And he's a great friend. And so we talked about it and about the potential UFO connection there. And he's on board with it as well. I think he believes that this is absolutely part of the picture. You know, there was a memo JFK did sign on November 11th. so 11 days before he was assassinated. He was November 11th, wasn't it? Or the 12th?

12th, yeah, thank you. Where he's directing the Central Intelligence Agency to coordinate UFO data with the Soviet Union for, you know, laudable reasons, I would say. So that was part of his psyche right there. He was going against the system. You look at the majestic documents, which you referred to, and there's something called the so-called burned memo,

where Lanser, and that was, the code name for Kennedy was described, oh, I wish I could remember the exact wording of this, but an operation has to be done on him if he's too dangerous and it must be wet. And that refers to wet, wet work, which is assassinations. So, and that was, that was written shortly before the assassination. I can't remember the date of that. So, yeah, I mean, I think Kennedy, but I don't think it was only the UFO situation. I mean, John F. Kennedy is complex. There's a lot to see there. And as I mentioned Philip Lavelle, but the reason is Philip said, you know, you talk to JFK researchers and they absolutely will not go there. They will not, even to this day, they will not

want to talk about the UFO connection. You see this in all aspects of the alternative community. It's like, well, I'm already taking slings and arrows from the establishment for this. I don't want to talk. I don't want to wear this. other albatross around my neck. But it is true. And the UFO phenomenon, look, it is the elephant in the room of United States and world history of the 20th century. And all the academicians, all the mainstream historians and analysts, they ignore it over and over again. You know, the first director of the CIA, Roscoe Helen Carter, was into UFOs big time. Why does no one, why did none of the historians talk about this? And he joined

Nycap. Yeah. He was a board member. Until he resigned suddenly at the moment where in 1962 Donald Kehoe, his friend, they were trying to get congressional hearings that looked like it was going to happen.

And a week later, Hillen Carter says, yeah, I'm out of Nightcap. Look, the Air Force is doing everything they could. I think we should lay off. Yeah. And that was the end of that. So there's a story here

that establishment historians ignored for years and years and years and years, it is the elephant in the room. If we do not understand the impact of the UFO or UAP phenomenon on world history, we're not going to understand a whole lot. We're going to miss a big part of the picture. Reports of flying saucers are nothing new. From the beginning of recorded time, men have been seen unexplainable things in the sky.

Can we go rapid fire through some crashes? I just want to get a real or hoax. Oh, wow. All right, well, I'll see. Okay, Roswell. Oh, real. Kingman. Yes, real.

Kexburg. Yep. That's a good one. I don't believe it was the bell. Some people say, as Bigelaka. Okay. Just because it looked like it superficially. First of all, the bell was not a flying device.

It was... Yeah, it was like some sort of torsion chamber thing. Yeah. Voltage electricity thing. And it probably did use... rotating mercury, you know, like pressurized mercury and all of that, which is very important for electro-gravitics and you want to get an anti-grivitic lift. Not my specialty. I should stop right there, but it was not a flying device by any means. According to the legend, you know,

Cook, I think, wrote about the Hunt for Zero Point. That's a really good book. Amazing. That's a really good book. And he broke this out a little over 20 years ago. And he said, according to, I think this was brought out in a post-World War II trial of Nazis in Eastern Europe, in Czechoslovakia, where they talked about this. And the claim was like, you got a bunch of scientists, like 60, a bunch of them died from the effects of this. And then the rest were executed at the end of the war so they wouldn't talk. Yeah. That's the story. The Deglockett thing is fascinating. Because you see a rig there now where maybe like a bell-shaped thing. I mean, it looks like that shape. It's really fascinating. And then I think he's also documented through this Polish journalist

Igor Vittkowski who documented that Ernest Growitz, who was basically this SS medical chief who worked directly with Joseph Mangala, and another guy named Walter Gerlock, who is a gravitational expert in physics, were working on this project. And so you have a gravity guy and then you have a guy working with like biological you know specimens doing and we know the Nazis did like experimental cell block nine like they were doing weird stuff they were and they're doing a lot of like off off the off the main stream of physics totally yeah they really were so there's I love hearing you talk about this back to kexburg I just I guess I'll just say uh there's something very bizarre came down there and I don't think it was a Soviet satellite I do not believe that I do not believe that at all you know

There's Stan Gordon who's still around. I love Stan. He really dove into this and I think he's got the goods on it. There was a local radio station guy. I think Frank Murphy was his name. He goes in there. It wrecked his life. It destroyed his life on many levels.

Anyway, so, Kexburgh, I don't know what that was. I think it was important. It wasn't just a satellite and maybe it was something more. Maybe it was a craft. I don't know. I have a weird one for you, Aztec. Oh, oh, I'm on the Aztec train, I believe that one. Aztec was, you know, was the first case that was written about in 1950 and was viciously, viciously smeared and debunked a couple of years after that.

I got named Considine. I think that was the one. J.P. Khan. Oh, J.P. Khan. Thank you. Thank you. I'm getting all of my people mix up. It gets tough to be an older man.

Well, you know a lot of stuff, man. Yeah, J.P. Con. And, and, um, but this story, what, there's, I have two very dear, wonderful people, Scott and Suzanne Ramsey, who've really done the work on this. But they revived and resuscitated this case. And, and what they showed was that, that Kahn's expose was utterly menacious and just driven by resentment over not being allowed to do the story. Yeah, he was going to break it. And he was going to, Scully to begin with. And then it was kind of this pit, yeah. And then the, the other weirder thread is he was family friends with. J Edgar Hoover as well. Oh yeah, I heard that.

J.B. Khan. I did hear that. And then you have these FBI files on Silas Newton and Gabbauer. Right. Going way back to the, I think the 30s or something. And they're totally redacted. Like, so it's like, why would you have these crazy FBI files? This whole thing, smearing them as these shysters, you know, sleazy real estate investors.

That's not, I don't think that's true at all. Yeah. In fact, I'm just going to give a shout out to Richard Gelderick, who, I love his research, and I talk with him, and he's got stuff on this. Yeah. He's going to come out with more information. Amazing. I would love to hear from him.

Silas Newton was worth $20 million at the time, which just for inflation. That guy doesn't need to hustle people on a doodle bug oil thing. He was very successful. No, absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think Aztec was real. I think that actually did happen.

And, you know, unfortunately, with a lot of these crash retrievals, Roswell was the anomaly in the sense that because Roswell made the newspaper at the time. And so it was harder, like they buried it right away. Yeah. But it, but there were always researchers like, remember that newspaper headline? Yeah. Like, so it was always kind of there. And then it wasn't until the late 1970s that a few people, especially like the great,

late Leonard Stringfield. He's, he, you asked in the beginning, like, who was some of my heroes? Yeah. He's one.

Yeah. I never met the guy. Yeah. He was amazing. Amazing. But anyway, so Stringfield starts collecting and dredging up these,

and he was one of the first people to interview and publish his interview with Jesse Marcel, Sr. And by the time that happened, you're really looking 20, no, 30 years after Roswell. So those people, a lot of them were still around.

some were gone and researches kind of jumped in and they found many many many people like in the case with aztec uh it just didn't work out that way kingman you mentioned that before i just want to say that that there's no question in my mind that kingman was the real thing raymond fowler still alive in his 90s i think uh was involved in uh contacting the uh the primary witness of that And so I think there's some good information on Kingman. But the problem with all of those other cases is compared to Roswell, we have like a small fraction of the number of people to be able to talk to. And that makes it,

that makes it tough for that. It shows you how managed this subject could have been in the Cold War secrecy era too, because with Roswell, nobody really knew about Roswell until 1979, 1980s. That's right. That's right. And Friedman helped popularize that Jesse Marcel came out. Yeah. But between 47 in that time, it was not in any of the UFO.

Not only that, yes. So the UFO, you know, this applies to us today in our community. And in the early decades of the flying saucers, so it was really not an easy career move to, like, you know, write and study flying saucers or UFOs. Bad career move for the most part. So everyone stayed away from it. And so the people who were in it were often like hyper-conservative in a way. It was very surprising.

So like abduction, it's like, no way. They're not going to get into abduction. That's like, that's crazy talk. You're talking crazy talk. Crash retrievals of UFOs. Keep that away. Yeah. They would, and they'd been scared off of it by the JP Con hit piece, certainly.

Despite the fact that how is it illogical that with all of these flying discs, the United States military, might have gotten one. It's really not that illogical. when you think about it, but it was absolutely off the limits. And when Stanton Friedman and Stringfield and others started looking at these crash retrievals in the late 70s, they got a lot of pushback from established UFO researchers at that time. This was not an easy sell. It's still not. I mean, if you Google Aztec crash, it goes, Aztec crash, that is the Wikipedia page of this thing.

And you have Scott and Cesar. Suzanne Ramsey. That's not UFO research is managing those pages, of course. Those are hardcore skeptical organizations. A hardcore skeptical organization, but then you give them first principles points as to why actually maybe something did happen at the time. And there's never anything to say back. They always have a while it's been well established that.

It's a hoax. And it's like that is just received wisdom. You were literally just repeating some party line. You've done zero research. No, I think Aztec really, that was the real deal. I agree. I've been there. And I've been there with Scott and Suzanne.

And you see the trees have been, you know, where the UFO is dragged out, you see that the trees are like, you know, have been bent over in this awkward shape. You have FBI files of the two guys who reported on it, you know, through Scully or whatever, going back to the 30s. So they were clearly kind of tracking these guys, which is, you know, really strange. They were thrown, Newton was thrown in jail over this. So, yeah, I think there's a lot. And then Scully, people say with Scully, oh, was like written in this sort of flowery artful way or whatever. But he was the guy a lot of celebrities would go to to give really kind of, you know, to tell stories where, you know, they didn't want everything out necessarily. They wanted told in a delicate way.

Yeah. But he was approached by this possibly consortium of scientists that were kind of, you know, consolidated into Dr. G or whatever. Yeah. And it would make sense that he would have been approached. And you have all these people mysteriously dying around Scully. You have Carl Flock, you know, who's that probably. a three-letter agency guy. I knew Karl Flock. So it's like you do a little digging. I think about Scully. Yeah. You read, read that book. Read just like the introduction. Yeah.

If nothing else. 1950, this is a guy who really knew things really well. He was deeply skeptical. Yes. Of the United States establishment in the military. Yes. Which is an unusual thing for a journalist in 1950. Yes. Scully was no one's fool. He knew things really well. I would recommend anyone find the book. Just read that. Yeah. It reads about as fresh today as when he wrote it back. I agree.

And you have a recording of Silas Newton speaking. Yeah. That was the University of Denver or some Colorado or something. And so there's so much documentation from the time. But as soon as you say, this is a hoax, people just kind of look away and forget about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because, again, the whole thing about being in a fringe field like this, it's like the last thing you want to appear is,

is gullible. Right. It's like that's the kiss of death. Like you don't look like you're stupid. I'm going to leave every single thing. And so there's this overcompensation that has always happened in this field. Yes. Which is too bad because let's face it.

Let's get down to the fundamental reality here. We are dealing with a phenomenon. Yes. That is beyond us. It is a reality-shattering phenomenon. Yes. And it breaks everything. It breaks absolutely everything.

and the reality is that we it's not that we're being too crazy and too friendly we're not being we're not going out there enough I think that's right that's the thing this is a very it's a very powerful subject and reality UFOs, UAP, whatever we want to call them

this but even more than that like UFOs or UAP that doesn't really even touch that's right that's nothing yeah the truth is there is an other intelligence, society, civilization, whatever they are, they're here, they are established. They have bases. They have a presence. They are global every, every day. The nationwide sightings of mysterious drones. Weeks of mysterious drone sightings.

You're telling me we don't know what the hell these drones are in New Jersey are. Can you make sense of the Jersey drones? I know you cover. these in various contexts. It's so confusing. You have, you know, Rogan and Sean Ryan being like, they were looking for loose nuclear material on the Eastern Seaboard. You have other people saying, you know, we found some Chinese nationals like around there. And then I think there's a lot of reason to believe there was possibly genuine anomalous aerial stuff going on.

Yeah, everyone's always like, I've solved it. I've solved it. Like everyone's like figured this thing out. But really, the thing that strikes me about the mystery drone phenomenon was it's like every single other UFO wave you ever study. In other words, this thing happens. No one seems to be able to explain it. Everyone's got their own theory. Thousands of theories are out there.

And then it goes away and you have no resolution. No resolution. Well, you know, join the club. This has been going on for many, many years. There's still a lot of unknown things about this that I'm personally. I'd like to get more information about it. I don't know if we ever will. There were reports of these things supposedly coming out of the water

and harassing U.S. Coast Guard vessels. That's one. It was apparently a swarm that supposedly came from the ocean, out of the ocean. Do we know? I don't know. But it swarmed a Coast Guard vessel. And you have Trump saying it came from a garage. And, you know, it's a very strange place.

Biden knows where they're coming from. Our military knows where they took off from. If it's a garage, they can go right into the... that garage. They know where it came from and where it went. I can't imagine it's the enemy because it was the enemy they'd blast it out, even if they were late. They'd blasted. Something strange is going on for some reason they don't want to tell the people, and they should. With Trump, it's always hard to know because he speaks in such an overly simplistic, sing-songy way where it's like, dude, I don't know what you're saying. But, you know, what is entertaining,

but, you know, it is entertaining. But that is source that seem to imply something. kind of anomalous, right? Yeah, I don't really know if Donald Trump actually knew what these were. I presumably after he became president, he might have figured out. And by the way, notice, you know, the Trump and Biden teams, they hate each other. And yet when they talk about this phenomenon, they sound exactly the same. Yeah, that's right. It's the only thing.

No difference. It's the only thing that gets, like, AOC and Matt Gates to agree. And then simultaneously, like, the power structures that are clamping down to agree. Yeah. So I don't know if we have an answer to that. And I don't have an answer to it. I was very unpersuaded by the argument that they were looking for nuclear material. I didn't find that believable at all.

Because first of all, you had these mystery drones over Ramstein Air Base in Europe. You had them over Lakenheath and in the UK. And there were a lot of more reports of them having sightings in California. One of the problems with this is it's really hard to know. Are we looking at the same phenomenon? When you look at all the mass of UFO or UAP reports, it's really hard to know, like, are all of these legit? So how do you actually see the patterns here? Is the European aspect of this related to the New Jersey tri-state area aspect of it, and is that related to the California?

I don't know. Because it's who is doing the actual sure-shot research and nailing these cases down, getting field investigators out there confirming. We have a lot of stories, a lot of people throwing videos out there, and I was as much confusion as anybody else on that. Where do you think disclosure is going? Because, you know, you've been in this field for decades. I'm sure when you get into the field to begin with, you start to gather data and you start to probably think, like, why is no one earnestly engaged? Like, why isn't the mainstream media taking this seriously? and then you probably think, oh, disclosures maybe right around the bend or something. And so now I hear maybe a slightly more pessimistic, Richard Dolan, or where are you?

Well, yeah, sorry. I have wonderful, brilliant friends who say, Richard, you know, look on the bride's side a little more. And I do, I do, I do once a week. I actually will look on the bride's side of things. So one out of seven days, and I'm there. No, seriously, you mentioned our media. So one thing that I have definitely concluded a long time ago, like we like to think of our media. Media is supposed to be the watchdog.

They're the press. They inform us. And, you know, we all kind of know a little bit better now. But really, when you look at the media, it's part of a system that must maintain itself. You have a system that is we have a very complex society with a lot of interlocking parts that really do kind of need each other to make them go. Not just to keep the lights on, but you need that. and you need all the logistical systems in place, and you need all the financial systems to be working properly,

and that's how we live. That's how we eat our food, and that's how we make our money. And disclosure to a lot of those interests is a threat. It is a threat. It may not be a threat to you or to me in the immediate sense, but think about someone who sunk trillions of dollars into a military infrastructure or an energy infrastructure, or a transportation infrastructure,

disclosure could upset a lot of that. It could make some of those investments maybe worthless or at least lose a lot of money. We don't really think about this enough. And so it's a danger to that established society. Some people may say, well, the hell with it. I don't really care. Okay, well, I get that, but those guys who own it do care.

And they're going to fight every step of the way to protect their financial interests and also everything. the political stuff. And so, and the media is part of that system. Media is part of that system. It always has been. You know, earlier today I was doing an election.

I quoted late Catherine Graham, who was the owner of the New York Washington Post for many years, and she famously said, you know, look, this is in the 80s, late 80s. She's like, yeah, yeah, we work with the intelligence community all the time to manage information. And it was known. It was not even apologized for. So that's our media. And that's not even for me to criticize the media.

That's just for us to like see it for what it is. So I don't think we're going to really see a media. I mean, just think about since 2017. So you have Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal, and Helene Cooper. They write the really breakthrough article for the New York Times. Two of them. And we were all like, is this disclosure? This was kind of an amazing thing.

I was blown away by it. I was really caught off guard. It was amazing. What happened in the aftermath? Really nothing. nothing, nothing at all. No deep journalists like investigations by journalists of the mainstream. You had this very moderate, measured, controlled, often skeptical response to that,

where months and months and months would pass before another article would come out. Sometimes it'd be like a skeptical editorial in the New York Times and things like this. That's the nature of their investigation. So they clearly were not interested in following up. There were no prime time news specials on them. this, like none of that stuff. So you have to wonder, this we've always said, even the skeptics would say, well, this would be the biggest story of all time. Okay, so now we're, we've got a glimmer of it. Where are you guys? And I think we know. That's not a actual area that they want to

open up because it's too dangerous. So back to disclosure, I don't believe that we are going to ever see an honest, voluntary disclosure from the U.S. government. It's not going to be voluntary. It could be if their backs are pressed to the wall by, let's say, powerful revelations that become too unrealistic to deny. Let's say a senior level recent or active U.S. government official, maybe, maybe a Pentagon person. Matt Kovitz would be an interesting one, but he's now he's... Own it all. Pay off your home. Travel for life.

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But those people are tough to get. They're very tough to get. Yeah, I'm with you in the frustration. I met with one of the lead op-ed people at the Wall Street Journal maybe a year ago, and I was trying to convince her that she should write about this topic and that this was a very worthwhile, important topic. I was telling her about the nuclear connection.

She did express some interest, and I think she was, you know, earnest. I don't think she was, like, dogmatically opposed. to the subject. And it's funny. She said, oh, we have a consultant for this stuff. She said, this guy's name is David Spurgel. And this guy did the NASA UAP panel in 2023. He's probably associated with the whole secrecy. And then he said to her apparently, you know, he told us that it was all light reflections and temperature inversions. And I was like, oh my God, Don Mansell was saying the same thing in the 50s. And it was probably. And it was probably working on the same mainstream media proponents back then and where it's like

literally snapshot to today so you think about it says Washington Post one of the establishment publications has a deep system deep state scientists you could say who's managing this topic for so she has to defer to him right basically is what you what it sounds like yes yeah so that's that's how the whole things manage you got your talking points after after having researched this topic for as long as you have Richard Is there a science fiction book or movie that most accords with your worldview? I'm looking at my wife.

Well, there's a few movies and shows that I think are really neat. Hey, you know, I co-authored a book with Bryce Zabel. We did After Disclosure about 15 years ago, and he, of course, co-produced the TV show Dark Skies, which was a really great show. They did one long season in the late 90s. It's tough to compete with the X-Files, but they did a good job of the kind of inside machinations of an MJ12 group. I actually really like what they did there.

That's almost 30 years ago. Steven Spielberg, 20 years ago, did Taken, which I think was a very, very good work on that. I'll just put this out now because I'm a fan of him, and I talk to this man. There's an author named Lou Baldwin, who I love Lou's work. And he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he is a self-described contactee.

And I don't, I don't usually hang out or work with contactees. That's really not my thing. But Lou's work fascinates me. Absolutely. And I have no problem saying this. So he, in the 90s, mid-90s, he writes a book called In League with the UFO. It's a weird title. Like, what does that mean?

And then he, he subtitled it, the Roswell incidents. Like, this book has nothing to do with Roswell. But he was trying to, like, market it. 1997 it gets published, Roswell was the 50th anniversary, so fair enough. But you read this book, it's insane. He says, well, I got the material for writing this book from a gentleman who gave me some papers. He's totally cagey about like this. And he writes an insider's story of how the committee studied the flying saucer that came into their possession

after Roswell, the scientists, all the crazy stuff about the alien ship, how surreal it was, all the crazy, conscious, genius-level alien gadgets, as he calls them, that baffled these scientists, the political arguments. And I'm thinking, this is fiction. This is the best damn fiction in you of us anywhere, and it would be. And is it true? And, well, to this day, people discuss it. I've communicated with Lou.

I've talked with him. And he's still around, and I really like him. And I think I believe him. I think I believe this man. Somehow he gets this information. He can talk about it. I'm going to try to interview him one day. You should, too.

He's worth it. And then 10 years later, he writes this even crazier book. It's insane. It's called A Day with an Extraterrestrial. Who has a name? The extraterrestrial's name is Milton. Whoa. Like, that's a good name.

So Lou writes it and he's like, yeah, I'm doing my daily walk in the park where I live. And this crazy guy accosts me and says, hey, I remember me? He's like, I don't know you at all. Yeah, yeah, you know me very well. I don't think I know you at all. Get the hell away from me. Next thing you know, he's been paralyzed. He's floated, levitated into a ship.

No one sees it. And he goes for an entire day on this crazy Alice in Wonderland adventure. This is Alice in Wonderland for Uphology. This book, A Day with an Extra Treasatrial, if Lewis Carroll were to write about UFOs, this is the book you would write. People do not realize just how wild it is. Is it true? I don't know. It's a great read, and I find myself returning to it over and over again.

Lou, you're welcome. Yeah, that's what I've never heard a better plug. It's a great book. I want to pivot a little bit. You've been on this interesting kick around China and UFOs. To many of us, I think China is somewhat of a black box when it comes to this topic. You know, people talk about the three-body problem, this famous science fiction trilogy, or I guess that's the first book of the trilogy.

And there are a couple of journals from China that people are aware of, but you've done kind of a deeper dive? I did, yeah. I did actually this for the members of my website, so I like to do special projects for that. We've got Richard Dolembors.com. Great people there. And I'm always, like, working on those projects. as well as what I do on YouTube and in my books.

So I thought, you know, I've always been interested in understanding all international dimensions of this phenomenon, and that includes international research. And China was as much a black box to me, as you're just saying now, and I thought, I don't really, what can I learn? I mean, I want to do the same dive on Russian uphology as well, but I started with the better knowledge of that, and with Chinese uphology, I felt like I knew next to nothing.

And I thought, why is that? why do I know so little about what the Chinese UFO history is? Well, yeah, it's discovered. It's really quite fascinating. So there's still a lot that I don't know. But what I can definitely say to you, you know, everything revolves around the death of Mao Zedong in 1976. So there's pre-Mao, and up to that point,

you could not absolutely not no way ever research UFOs in that country. It was absolutely no way. The whole subject was off limits because, I mean, it seems to me it was a challenge to the authority of the Communist Party and a challenge to the fact that the party was in control of everything. And so what are these things flying around? The American, they extraterrestrial, whatever it is, we don't like to acknowledge it, and they did not. Mao then dies, and of course, with many aspects of Chinese society, certain floodgates did open up. One of them was a massive, absolutely massive, almost national interest in UFOs. To this day, I think this is a very, very popular topic in China, but it's managed very differently now than it was in the 70s.

So when Mao first died, you had Chinese researchers, a number of different ones. You had a kind of very scientific materialist. You could almost say Marxist version of understanding this subject. but what you find is that culturally among the grassroots Chinese people, they are into contact cases, big time, into metaphysical aspects of this subject in ways that you wouldn't think for a communist country where spiritual beliefs are not particularly encouraged

or even tolerated at times. But yet this became a huge thing. So all through the 80s, you get the development of, on the one hand, very solid, like, Mufon-type Chinese research where they're researching sometimes military encounters and publishing some of these. So I was able to find some of these. There was a Chinese researcher by the name of Paul Dong who wrote a really great book in the early 1980s on this.

And I think you can find a PDF of that. It's out there. But anyway, and there's a few other like random Chinese journals that you can get some of the information here in the West. But basically, long story short, through the 80s and 1990s, China had an organization known as a Falun Gong, many of you know of this, that grew so massively. So the Falun Gong was essentially doing kind of like a version of Tai Chi movement with a very, almost like yoga, but Tai Chi, you could probably do it outside on your mat. And that's what they would do. But it was such a massive national movement, millions and millions and more millions.

And the Falun Gong had very explicit UFO extraterrestrial related beliefs. So it made them a little different. And this movement became so big that Chinese government really became afraid of it. This is, you know, you had Tiananmen Square, remember that in 1989, where all of the openness that had been happening through the 80s became kind of grew and grew and morphed into a public demonstration wanting, you know, open and complete freedom of expression, and that was very, very severely crushed. So all through the 90s and the aftermath, the Falun Gong goes on their rise,

and they were ruthlessly shut down in the late 90s, in almost the exact same way. The Chinese Communist Party decided this is way too much of a threat. We absolutely cannot allow this and we must crush this and they did crush it absolutely completely. The whole thing that my biggest takeaway from all of that was that we talk about disclosure here in the United States. Disclosure in China is, I really am sure, would be perceived as such a major threat to the government. vastly more, vastly more than anyone in Washington, D.C. would perceive to the United States structure of power. So it had to be suppressed in China.

And Chinese euphology to this day is basically has its teeth taken out. I mean, it's very tame, it's very managed, it's very controlled. And it's also one thing that you would have to add is the People's Liberation Army, the Chinese Army, Chinese military, they are very sophisticated, in tracking UFO reports. Very, very sophisticated. They are integrated, I think, in all of, like, the Chinese research civilian organizations.

They're collecting everything. And they have a multi-tier system by which they organize these reports. So they collect, and they bring them to, like, a central clearinghouse where they study and analyze them, and then they bring them to a final repository where they keep these. We don't get any of that information.

I don't think any of that really comes out, but they're very, very sophisticated. They are on top of managing their UFO data, and that's really one reason, I think, why we don't really get anything out of it. I tried, you know, looking, you know, we can do Google Translate, you can translate website pages, but you cannot get to the Chinese cases. I don't think it's, maybe some people can, but I can't. It's so fascinating, and it does beg the question of, you know, why is, this dark forest trilogy, the three body problem allowed

they can clamp down on whatever literature they want and it doesn't exactly paint the cultural revolution in the most, you know, the rosiest of ways. It's sort of Yeah. I want to respond to that because I think what we're seeing is nothing is black and white anymore. We're in a world and China

is part of this too where things are in change. We're in the midst of an AI revolution. We're in the midst of all of the kinds of tech revolutions going on and a global communications revolution has been occurring. It continues to happen. So just because the government, whether it's the U.S. government, the Chinese government, the Russian, just because they say we don't want to recognize this

doesn't mean that they're able to prevent it. They can't really prevent it 100%. I think what we're seeing is a series of adjustments being made by all of the governments in all these ways. I think you see them fighting defense as a word. That's certainly the U.S. as well. People will say, you know, this guy says he's taking all these NDAs and all of this, and yet he's talking about crash retrievals.

Isn't he breaking classified security regulations? And what I suspect, I mean, I don't know, but I think what happens is you've got factions all over the place. You've got factions in the U.S. Pentagon, probably multiple facts, not just two, probably many. And some people have supporters who are enabling them to say certain things. Other people in that same structure will probably be dead set against it, but they didn't win that battle. And so certain things get out. And I guarantee it's probably very similar with China.

They have to play the game. They can't just slam down all the time and say, this is how it is forever. We're in a world that is in flux. We just have to recognize there are other sides of this, and I'm not advocating for one thing or another. I'm just saying it's a little complicated. But when you have a system that is designed to support it, like media, the media is part of this system. So it's been captured. We all know.

It's long ago, it's been captured. Like, you know, you had some watchdog journalists that maybe some of them are still out there. You're one. but in terms of establishment journalists everything's captured by the system because it must protect itself. The system must protect itself. So, you know, when you get these skeptics out there,

they fit right in perfectly. They serve the system as well. It's funny. You have, you know, people like Vannevar Bush talked about in UFO lore kind of all the time. You know, Robert Sarbacher said to see was, you know, part of the program initially. It would make sense if we had a UFO program.

It would be adjacent to our atomic program. He was head of the Office of Strategic Research and Development at the highest level for FDR and Truman. And he wrote a paper called The Endless Frontier. And I almost think if you read that paper, that essay through the lens of UFO technology, maybe it's like, oh, the frontier is actually super endless. and this thing needs to be, you know, how this tech gets developed needs to be managed by, you know, these central groups, like, oh, wow.

And they are convinced, like, they're the guys to do it. Right. They're smarter than we are. They know better. Right. We can argue whether they do or don't, but that's their position. And so they're not, they're not ever going to, like, voluntarily just say, oh, yeah, here, here you go. Yeah.

It's not going to happen. Yeah. I have a weird crash for you. I don't know if you're familiar with this one, but, um, uh, so. South Haven Long Island in the 90s. Yes, yes. Okay. Do you think that happened?

By Brookhaven National Lab. That's right, by Brookhaven National Lab. There's a man named John Ford. Okay. I'm sure you know this. Maybe some listeners do too. Yeah, I mean, I actually think that's a real possible one. Okay.

Yeah, there's a Long Island UFO group. He headed it. And they, actually, there may be, more than one of those that may have happened on Long Island. I grew up on Long Island. Okay. Okay. My backyard there. I didn't know about it at the time. Yeah. That was kind of... You think they're more than one? Well, I think they believed there were more than one. Well, that's fascinating. Because that was the first particle accelerator in the U.S., which is the Cosmetron

at Brookhaven National Labs. And you hear, you know, UFOs are definitely attracted to nuclear. And then I wonder if you could generalize that to tip the spear science and to high energy physics and particle accelerators. To think yes. I think so. The Long Island crash, I think it was supposed to be 1989 by Moritz's Bay. Okay. I think that's the year.

And yeah, I believe I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I do know like there was a lot of, there were eyewitnesses that talked about massive security presence around that area at that time. and John Ford looked in it. You know, they really destroyed his life. So John Ford, I used to be on sometimes some good terms with the late Elaine Douglas, who was a very close friend of John Ford. Elaine Douglas, in her own right, was a really cool lady, tough, smart, someone, you know, screw around with, she could get angry.

I remember that, but toward the end of her life, she and I were much closer. But anyway, she knew John Ford very well. I know she was a strong believer in this reality of the Long Island crash. But Ford was, it really does look to me that he was totally set up with this kind of wacky plot to kill a member of one of the, I think the Nassau County or is it the Suffolk County, city council, whatever, whatever governing body by poisoning his toothpaste with radioactive material. Jesus. Like, are you kidding me, man?

So he gets accused of this, and he's, I don't even know if he's alive anymore. Oh, my God. But he was incarcerated for decades. Oh, that's nuts. He might still be alive. That is so messed up. It's, it just seemed, I haven't really dived super deep into this, but it really looked like they just went after him. That's not.

Now, was he just that unstable and he was like getting kind of crazy and I don't know, but I don't I don't think so. It seems really wrong what they did to him. So wrong. You hear of these historical, you know, Galileo type case, people who seek truth and then they get persecuted by the establishment. And then you hear stories like that, modern stories and UFOlogy. Well, we like to think, oh, we're so much better now.

Like, we're not any different. Yeah. The problem with our country, our world, is that we like to tell ourselves we live in a democracy. And we like to tell ourselves, oh, yeah, we've got natural rights. government rights. And so the problem then becomes for those people who have always controlled things. It's like, how do we deal with this? Oh, we do, let's do some good public propaganda, create public relations, you know, Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, who creates that whole industry for massive public manipulation. So that's, okay, check. And then all these other things

to get around the formal restrictions on their untrammeled pursuit of power. And so it's just, just a game. It's like, all right, we have this pretend democracy. That's really what it is. And both parts are true. Like, we have certain democratic elements to our world, okay. But ultimately, we all kind of see it's very tightly guided and manipulated. And in a naturally hierarchical social organization in ours is, it always has been. Anytime you're have concentrations of wealth that are going to be unequal, and since we, 12,000 years, since we both started collecting ourselves into societies, that's always been the case. You're going to have hierarchy, sorry, but it's just, it's inevitable. And those people with the money are going to control

things. And so they never give up. And they're just, it's like, how do we work our way through this system now? Yeah, how do we manipulate the system to keep it going? All right, let the people think they've got freedom. Good for them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they do. Yeah, it's like And we're surprised when we see that there are these injustices happening today. It's like, that shouldn't be. Yes. Yeah, it's a weird, you know, it's like the left is always talking about, you know, government overreach and then the right's talking about, you know, corporate overreach.

And, yeah, it used to be the opposite. Yeah, it used to be the opposite. The left used to talk about the government overreach. Oh, no, the corporate overreach and the right used to talk about government overreach. Yeah, they've been like switched around. They have. And then, and now. it's just a sort of seesaw where, you know, the only constant is the rich gets richer and the poor

gets poorer, but it's the sort of hypnotic, like, you know, they're rearranging the deck chairs and the Titanic or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking about our conversation yesterday. We talked about, you know, this amazing history of unidentified submersible objects. You have this incredible chronology. One case that you've covered before that, which I think connects to U.S.Os is the Pascagoula case where you have these two fishermen who abducted.

I didn't realize this until recently. Pascagoula was right next to the largest production of nuclear submarines at the time in the U.S. Yes, that's right. I don't know if it still is, but that's right. And actually, well, that's a good case. And in the second volume of my study, which will cover the 1970s and 80s. So there's a, you know, maybe I'll make more of a reference. I might throw a little bit more about Pascagoula in there.

not, in my opinion, technically a U.S.O. case necessarily, but a week or two later, there was a genuine U.S.O incident right there. Oh, wow. Right there. And that is in my book, and it's a good, it's a really good case. Whoa. Really, really good. So, but I do make a reference to Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker. They were the witnesses for that. They were the abductees for that. And, yeah, so basically what you had with that, they are seeing, they're fishing. I think Hickson at the time in his 40s. Cal Parker was like 19 years old, and they're doing a fishing thing early in the morning, and they see this dome-shaped kind of craft, like a, almost like a cone, maybe a cone-shaped crap, I guess, and it's hovering above the water. It's off the coast of Mississippi, and they

are abducted. And for the longest time, it was only Charles Hickson, who was supposedly abducted, but Calvin Parker years later, I think indicated that he was too. The thing about that is a couple of things. So the being that they described is very bizarre looking. It's got like a carrot ears and a point. It's a weird looking, weird looking creature. Very bizarre.

Look, I wouldn't think of an alien looking. It looks like a 1950s version of an alien, like in one of those bad movies, which is the one thing about it, like you just don't want. You look at that. and you cringe. Yeah.

Oh, guys, like, is this what you saw? Yeah. But look, it's what they said they saw. But what's interesting about it is they were, they reported this to the police, local police, which many people know. And the guy, the deputy sheriff on duty is like, he's kind of suspicious of them. So he leaves a recorder in, in the room where they're alone. They don't know this.

They don't know they're being recorded. And they're just talking very honestly with each other. Like, like, in Cal Parker's freaking out. they're like, holy crap, how do we do this? How do we process? This is, and so they totally convinced the law enforcement there that they were honest and sincere. Yeah. So, and, you know, and for many years, Cal Parker just kind of disappeared for a while. He reappeared toward the end of his life. But Charles Hickson did lots of interviews. And like, you know, I've watched the guy, I've listened and read his interview transcripts. He's, I think he was telling the truth, you know. It's fascinating. Yeah.

Do you ever, does naval surface warfare crane never come up for you? Are you familiar with that facility? Not related to the Glomar bit, isn't? I don't know. Well, you actually reported on it. You did as part of Richard Dolan, Intelligent Disclosure, like and subscribe. Maybe I use different terminology. You talked about why, I think this guy, Randy Anderson, who I interviewed,

who went deep into an underground military base, which you've covered. Yes, no, he is fascinating guy. He is fascinating. And, you know, that was not really on a lot of people's radars, that complex at the time. I think it's still, there's very, you're talking about the thing down in Puerto Rico and the Caribbean? I'm getting mixed up here. 2014, 2015.

It was taken down underground to this and then taken to a skiff that said off-planet technologies. Oh, I never took notes on. I don't think. So I should probably revisit this. Well, yeah, I don't know. Well, it's a complex that's very interesting. I have, you know, a couple of Navy friends and they say some spooky stuff goes on there. I'm going to data mine you about this when we're done talking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll do it. Okay. Well, Richard, this has been an absolute honor. Yeah, I can't thank you enough for your time. And, yeah, I mean, you're just an absolute wealth of knowledge. I love talking to you, man. You are, you're very easy to do this with. And you're a wealth of knowledge in your unright.

Like your knowledge of 1940s, like World War II era stuff, very, very impressive. Well, I really enjoy. hearing you talking about. Standing on the shoulders of giants and that's what we all do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We said that before we started or, but it's true, like that's all we ever do. We stand on. You ask me who some of my inspirations are. I'm going to tell you right now. So, yeah, yeah, when I started with before, before I got into UFOs, I was into a couple of academic guys that I really love. Max Weber, great sociologist from a century ago was very, very important to me. He still is. Yeah. His idea is still resonate with me. His whole idea of rationalization of the world.

I think about this a lot. Age of disenchantment. Yes, exactly, yeah. Absolutely. In fact, that whole thing, I was 21 years old when I first read Weber and I read him talking about disenchantment of the world. And that's what that hooked me. So that's kind of cool that you mentioned that.

Yeah, a lot of other kind of important thinkers of the past, I guess. But within UFOs, I'm like an admirer of a lot of all the oldie. oh geez, you know, Donald Kehoe was probably number one in that. I went through all of his books very carefully. James and Coral Lorenzen of Apro, very huge admirer of them. Edward Rupelt, his whole story has just been interesting. Oh, yeah. Very early death of a heart attack at age 37.

Are you conspiratorial about that or is death, Repel? Possibly. Okay. Some people are like, no, no, he died. He did have a previous heart attack before that. Okay. But the thing about Rupelt, that's weird, he absolutely was pressured to basically debunk his own book. Yeah.

And there's no question about this. So you read, 1956, he does the report on unidentified flying object, which was flew in the face in many ways of the official Air Force position. He ran Project Blue Book. He was in a position to talk about this. And he's making it clear throughout the book. It's like, yeah, we were baffled by this. This scared the hell out of us. This was amazing.

That blew my mind. Like again and again and again, very uncomfortable. So what ends up happening, Kehoe is the guy who writes all about this. He brings this out because he was in touch with Rupelt. And Rupelt was on board with all of the kind of pro-UFO public statements right up until around, I think, the middle of early 1958. So for 56 and 57, he was gung-ho, starts. to become a little cold in 58.

And Kehoe's noticing, what's up with Rupelt? And other people like, what's up with Rupelt? Well, he was working at Northrop at the time, and he was under pressure. And he ends up in 1960, publishes his second revised version of his book, which all he ended up doing was he tacked on three chapters at the end of it. And the chapters are, I mean, written in a completely different manner. they're very like the original book is very like it's measured it's mature the three chapters tacked on it's like sophomoreic and goofy and he's he's he's smearing people including kehoe and he's

it's just like very unlike uh the writing that preceded it as if he was coerced or pressure yes it's right and he publishes that and he trashes UFOs at the end calls it i think the space age religion or myth, myth of the space age, and then he dies. It's crazy. It's crazy. Well, there are other cases like that you have,

you know, Philip J. Corso, you know, he had 24 hours to edit the day after Roswell co-written by William Burns. Jay Burns. And he had written another thing, you know, dawn of a new age or whatever.

And so you have this like managed version and this more pure version. And we talked about Aztec earlier. William Steinman, he was a scoutwork's employee. At one point. He was an employee at Lockheed. Yeah.

And he was pushed out because of his UFO research and could never get a job in aerospace after writing that book, which I would love to vindicate. I think that is a great UFO research book. Yes, it is. Because Wikipedia says the, you know, Aztec thing is a hoax. You know, he, you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yeah, before the Ramses rehabilitated, Stimmon did a really big, fat book on it. An amazing book.

That covers all sorts of. interesting stuff around RJ12. You sure did. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, I talked with Simon one time, and I really, really, I liked him a lot. There's all kinds of stories, like all kinds of really crazy stories that come out. Other people I've admired and continue to admire. One of them is still alive.

Her name is Linda Moultonow. Oh, yeah? Linda is a one-off. There's no one else like her. She is one of a kind. And she's brave. She puts herself out there all the time. She's investigated.

I just admire her. And by the way, if you ever get to hang out with her, just let the lady talk. She has got the more amazing personal stories. Because the thing about Linda is all the older guys always like Linda. Like all the military guys. Well, she's brilliant. no BS about her

but they feel that they can talk to her and she listens and she's brave and so she's collected all of these amazing encounters like some of them are just kind of crazy and I

I just sit and I just listen I've been really lucky that I can get to do that with her I mean she's one of a kind amazing amazing resource a gem of a human being in our field. I don't know. A lot of other people I've really truly admired.

Tim Good is one. I got to know Tim a bit and he's not well these days and I wish him the best. He must be a little over 80 at this point. Yeah, about that. Yeah. And he's just retired. But Tim was a real gentleman and a really gentleman, a gentleman and a smart guy. This is a field of UFOs.

Like, I look back and I think, what an amazing little ride I got to have just because I thought, I got the bug and I thought I would write a book and I get to meet these. Stanton Friedman was another one. Although Stanton, I'm just going to say this, I always liked him, always respected him. Yeah. Stanton was a little bit of a gatekeeper with me when I first broke into this field. Really? I will say that, yes.

You know. He didn't sort of just give you. It was all about Bob Lazar. Oh, because you expressed genuine interest in those are. Well, in 2001. Yeah. So I still had nice black hair, big round glasses. I had all that going on.

So I did my first, my first public appearance was actually in Laughlin, Nevada in March of 01. And my second one was right after 9-11. Okay. And it was in St. Louis and Stanton was there. We had like, honestly, probably like 15 people in attendance. this whole thing. Like I flew out there. Stan was there, a couple of other folks. How old were you at the time? 39, I think. Okay. I just turned 39. Okay.

Yeah. So, and, you know, we didn't, there's no social media. So things were slower. You know, I had two appearances in the air. I was like, wow, that's great. Yeah. So I mean, I'm there and Stan, like, I'm sitting alone with him, and he's checking me out. He's like, who is this guy? Because I had just written a book, big, fat book. And he's like, so, what's your opinion on Bob Lazar? And the fact was, I didn't really have one. I mean, I didn't know enough. I had spent the last five years just trying to figure out from 1941 to 1973.

It was like, Lazar, are you kidding me, man? I didn't really know yet. And by the way, I was scared out of my mind entering the UFO field back then because I knew. I wrote this, like it was a good book on the early part of the cover up, but like I, when I published that book, I do nothing about the 1980s and 1990s. I didn't have time. I didn't have time. So I was afraid like people are going to ask me all these questions and I don't know what I'm going to say. And Bob Lazar was one of them.

I was aware this was a big thing, but I didn't really spent enough time to know. And so, and I resented those, Stan, like. I knew where he was coming from. He wanted me to come down against Lazar. And I was like, you know, don't, I think I said, like, I'll decide to send my own time. Well, that's right. And I let him know, like, you can't, don't bully me, man. I'm not going to take to it.

We always had a fine and cordial relationship. I wasn't really close with Stan like others people were. But, you know, I think he learned to respect me over time. It took him a little while. Yeah. One thing was he realized, because everyone's attacking him over MJ12, and he realized, oh, Dolan's kind of like okay with MJ12. So he suspected I was kind of an ally there. The other thing I was just going to say about stand, though, and this is a bit of a problem.

The fact that he was so hardcore against Lazar, to me, signified a larger problem. Yeah. Which is that, look, you're going to research Roswell. Good. Great, in fact. And it's very good that you did that. but why in God's name would you think the story stops there? Yeah, of course.

All right. So you have the craft. It's obviously going to be studied. Yes. Under great secrecy. Yeah. That's a given. Yeah.

So let's look for some stories here. And he just always seemed to like shoot them down. Well, it's kind of intellectually disingenuous to say simultaneously, I believe they're seek covert reverse engineering programs. And then also say the one guy with probably the one guy with probably the, the most coherent story around having worked on a craft is a hundred percent wrong. You have to think probabilistically. And so I give it, give it some probability above zero if you think the first thing.

Yeah, yeah. And he fixated like on the education. On the education, because he was educated at MIT and it was personal, I think. I think he was like, what did I do to get my degree at MIT? I think that's exactly right. It was a little ego. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. I think so. And he kept using the word fraud over and over again. I'm just like, this is not helpful. Right. And there is something that happens with UFO research too, where by that time, I think Friedman, he had gotten in with, I don't know,

probably a lot of, you know, interesting characters in government. But he was very good friends with Bill Moore, William Moore. He's good friends Bill Moore, who admitted at Lufon in the late 80s that he, you know, helped with the mess up Paul Benowitz. More, not going to defend or attack him, but Moore always said,

and Greg Bishop wrote about this, and a really good book called Project Beta. That's amazing. Moore said, I allowed myself to get involved with those people because I believed I had the ability to separate the shit from the candy, as I put it. So he thought, at least this is his explanation,

that he was going to deal with these people because he wanted to get to the Holy Grail himself. Right. And Bill Moore was the hot shot UFO researcher of the 1980s. People so often forget. And it was Robert Hastings, by the way, who, in my opinion, probably more than anyone else,

responsible for the takedown or Bill Moore. Because Hastings, if you go back through the old Mufon journals of the late 80s, I wasn't involved in the field, but you know, you can read the journals. Hastings was on, he was on, he knew that Moore had intelligence connections.

I knew it, and he sniffed it out. And I personally think, I'm sure others know this better than I do, but I think that Moore, by July of 1989, when he was at the Mufon symposium there, the gig was up, like he couldn't, there was no way he's going to keep this going anymore.

So he just kind of came out. That's what I think. That's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, you also have, you have the guy, Chase Brandon, he wrote Cryptos dundrum. I think he was working on a script at one point with Stanton Friedman. And so you have these interesting. Oh, yeah, with Stan.

Right. With these interesting sort of overlaps where in the beginning you start off super reverent and iconoclastic and then maybe you get softened over time or something. Yeah, thanks for bringing me back to Stan. That was all. Yeah. Going a little off there. But yeah.

I mean, having said all of that, look, I admire and always respected and liked Stanton Friedman. And his contribution to where we now are at is extremely important. Yes. And but, you know, like I once read, Marilyn Monroe couldn't cook. You're going to hold that against her? You know, she's Marilyn Monroe. Sure. Everyone's got their things where we're not 100% perfect.

Yeah, of course. And so, but yeah, Stan was someone that was important. to me and um anyway i'm kind of tailing off here no i love it this i can talk to you for hours well uh richard this has truly truly been an honor and uh hopefully we can do it again at some point and uh thank you for doing everything go subscribe to richard dolin intelligent disclosure on youtube this is on spotify and apple too i think so you know i'm not that good at uh at organizing wherever it is on social media but i know it's on youtube i check it out on youtube buy his new book on u s volume is out, two and three are coming. It's amazing. And buy all his other books, too. He's written

some incredible, I don't know, UFOs in the national security state. Yeah, they're all like little babies of mine. I love them all. And the thing I love most is probably writing the books. Yeah. I mean, YouTube is fun. Yeah. Conferences, talking with people is fun. But I actually mostly enjoy just writing. Well, keep going. Putting that out. Keep doing what you do. All right. Thank you, Jesse. Thank you, Richard.