American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - “The UFO Program Recruited Me From School!” [Exclusive Interview]

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Our American Alchemist this week is Jordan Jozak. Visit Jordan’s website at https://jordanjozak.com/ Helix: Thank you Helix Sleep for sponsoring! Visit https://helixsleep.com/jessemichels to take advantage of their Fourth of July Sale and get 20% Off Sitewide Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code AMERICANALCHEMY at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/americanalchemy MudWtr: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code JESSE at https://mudwtr.com/JESSE! #mudwtrpod Editor Application please email us your relevant work at the email address [e-mail] Gifted and Talented Education (GATE) in the United States has been systematically used to identify children with anomalous cognitive and “psychic” abilities and funnel them into covert psychic development programs. Jordan Jozak says he was plucked out of a standard GATE test in rural New York at age nine, the start of a years-long grooming process that pulled him out of his school, away from his parents, and eventually into a facility where he was administered substances and subjected to experiments he was never meant to remember. These experiments involved remote viewing, mind-matter interactions (with random event generators), brain mapping using EEG’s and even remote control flight of UFOs or UAP. Jordan also reveals he was shown an ancient archeological object to see if he could mentally interact with it (he was successful). Jozak was quietly pulled from class for years, told he was special for his precocious ability to visualize and empathize; he was meant to tell no one. His teachers were never informed. When he started resisting around the age of twelve, a fabricated mental health diagnosis was used to remove him from public school entirely despite his parents’ own apprehensions. He was placed at Baker Victory Services, a Catholic-affiliated special education facility in Lackawanna County, Western New York, where a segregated part of the building ran a dual-use defense contractor-backed program while the rest served ordinary special education children. Jozak believes MITRE corporation, which is being actively investigated by Congressman Eric Burlison for its role in UFO legacy efforts, was involved in using Baker Victory Services for this experimental research. This was the plot of Stranger Things playing out in reality across America. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early/Ad Free Episodes) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [e-mail] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:55 - Sponsor (Helix Sleep) 4:37 - Guest Intro: Jordan Jozak 10:00 - GATE and Gifted Testing 11:09 - Interactions with Psychologists 16:16 - Stranger Things and the Montauk Comparison 28:12 - ESP Training Begins 37:45 - The Subconscious and Belief 43:11 - Connecting Psi to UFOs 47:46 - The PEAR Lab Data 49:02 - First Encounter with the Relic 52:06 - The Crystal Orb 56:32 - Telepathic Communication 1:03:27 - Esoteric Traditions 1:05:05 - Sponsors (Incogni/MudWtr) 1:07:34 - Piloting UFOs Through Consciousness 1:14:55 - Skywatcher 1:23:17 - Sacred Practices 1:25:57 - Directed Energy 1:27:08 - Crash Retrieval Operations 1:31:15 - The Field Model of Reality 1:32:28 - Extraterrestrial vs Interdimensional 1:43:08 - Boarding School 1:45:45 - MITRE and the Legacy Program 1:50:01 - Project Preserve Destiny 1:54:26 - Andrija Puharich's Space Kids 1:56:39 - Consciousness and Wave Function Collapse 1:59:07 - How Synchronicities Work / Time 2:10:37 - Intentionality 2:15:01 - Hemi-Sync and the Monroe Institute 2:17:14 - An Astral Experience and "Ken" 2:19:40 - Understanding Ourselves 2:23:47 - The Telepathy Center 2:24:15 - Closing Message 2:26:13 - Outro: Editor Job Posting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. You have one of the most extraordinary stories of anyone I know. Be sure to tell me the whole story. By all accounts, I was a normal. person. Life was great, things were working out well in my favor, and then things took a turn. Early 2023, I began to unravel. This was like very brutal PTSD level of flashbacks.

I was remembering and having nightmares of being in labs, being surrounded with people. I was completely removed from the public school system for multiple years of my life. Shovels marked the start of construction of the new $16 million facility at Baker Victory Services. I was in the gate classroom. I drank the pink drink. It's just that there was a progression of more. And what sort of experiments would they have you do and what would they test you on? These UAP, UFO, other materials, they're not flown with joysticks. They're flown through the mind. I would lay in a deep meditation, I would have some type of sedative

and shift my consciousness into the set object or some vehicle and become it. Pilot it up and down, move it left and right. From what I understand, what they were trying to do is build a brain neural interface that would reproduce the brainwave signals that I was sending out so then you could boil it back down to someone with a controller.

That is wild. The people in the program, had this thing. They called it a relic. And sitting at the center of the coffee table, it's a literal crystal orb, but the inside of this orb was alive. Whoa. And as I locked eye contact with it, the inside structure, it adapts and it like changes. Oh my God. And it's almost as if this object, as I'm looking at it, is now looking back at me. Right? Consciousness is actually the root of disclosure. It's you.

Your disclosure. Consciousness, awareness, the fact that the world is not as we see it. It's constantly evolving. Like, that's the epitome of disclosure. There's a state that researchers call hypnagogia, that threshold between waking and sleep where the brain is doing something genuinely unusual. It's where a lot of it. of people report their most vivid experiences, the kind of thing that comes up in remote viewing

accounts, other altered states research, and some of the most fascinating conversations I've had on the show. Since moving to Austin, sleep is something I've thought a lot more about, mostly because I don't get a ton of it. Until recently, I was sleeping on a mattress that I've had for the last 10 years, and it was clearly not helping me get the sleep I need. When I finally decided I need to fix that, a friend told me to try healing. and I'm so glad I did. They actually have a sleep quiz that matches you to the right mattress based on your sleep position, your body type, and whether you sleep hot or cold.

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4th of July sale and get 20% off site wide. And be on the lookout for additional sales on the Helix site. Thank you so much to Helix Sleep for sponsoring this episode. Jordan Jozek, it is an honor to have you. You have one of the most extraordinary stories of anyone I know. And you've turned some very dark things in your childhood and life into a very positive mission and message. And I think you're remarkable. And I'm just honored because I know it's not easy for you to do this and to tell your story that you are doing this on our show. It means a lot to me. Yeah.

Thanks so much for having me on, Jesse. This show has been a long time coming, and I'm just as honored to be in the position here to present it with you. The honor is mine. Why don't we back up to 2023? Because you were, by all accounts, a normal and very high functioning, successful person. Do you want to describe, just like, give a snapshot of your life at the time? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, 2023, I was a very normal run-of-the-gun person. I was a serial entrepreneur, so I had some successful ventures in business. I worked in the tree care industry. I was working in kind of applied agentic AI in late 2023. It's early for agentic AI. Very early. Very early. We were doing some cool things with wildfire prevention and very cool, just like next generation research to help utility companies. Super proud of what I was doing.

at the time. And yeah, by all accounts outside looking in, as well as from the inside looking at myself, I was a normal person. Success driven. Life was great. Things were working out well in my favor. And then, as you know, things took a turn. Things took a turn when I kind of went through some personal struggles, was going through some relationship challenges, was also working in the startup field, so just very high stress. And getting into like, late 2022, early 2003, just with some triggering things in normal life,

I began to unravel, for lack of a better word, and unravel in a sensation that brought back what I could only describe as childhood memories that I had not previously recollected. I was remembering a life that didn't feel like mine.

And it wasn't just like simply, hey, I was remembering something all of a sudden, this was like very brutal PTSD level of flashbacks, throwing myself out of bed with nightmares. After this kind of triggering moment, just where work was boiling up against my relationship changes, all of it came flooding back to where I was remembering things that, like, I couldn't place in linear time.

So I didn't know what was going on. I thought, like, hey, did I just draw the crazy straw? Did something happen to me psychologically? So I did what a normal person would do, right? Like, one ounce sought help, started working with. therapist and began to figure out that what I was recalling was actually dissociated parts of my childhood. Wow. And prior to that, what had you kind of conceived of when it came to your childhood? Did you have this kind of linear full memory of it? Not at all, but in that same respect,

how many people do I think about their childhood, right? Like, do you remember your childhood when you're really? No, it's funny. I was just recounting like my, you know, elementary school teachers and it was a struggle but I was like able to like do it but it's not something that's top of mind exactly yeah and that was my same experience with it too it was like I thought to the best of my knowledge I lived a very normal life um you know grew up in a small rural town uh things were just normal for me for lack of a better word and graduated high school uh went on to be a very uh success oriented person beat cancer at a very young age at um age 20 that's amazing and then yeah just just went off. I was just like a hardworking, committed individual and life was good.

And then the memories started, like I said. And these memories weren't typical memories. These weren't even necessarily memories of just what someone would consider like abuse or something that, you know, our brain from an aspect of protecting us from trauma would hide. They were simply things that I didn't even have the vernacular to articulate. So I was remembering and having nightmares of being in the labs, being surrounded with people. that I learned to recognize and learn to actually remember names. And all this went on for about a period of about two months where I was having severe PTSD, remembering all these childhood experiences, lab settings, things I didn't have the vocabulary for.

And then I eventually just began investigating my own past because at a certain amount of volume of this, at a certain amount of, wow, I'm a grounded individual. I can journal about this. I'm not making this up. What is this? I began to look into my own past. And what I found was that I was completely removed from the public school system for multiple years of my life.

My parents were told a story that was not essentially what happened to me in person. And upon leaving the program that I was admitted into, I lost all memory of those experiences until they resurfaced into 2023. That's remarkable. So you mentioned memories of being in a lab now having pieced together what your childhood actually was. What happened? Yeah, yeah.

So basically in 2004, 2005, I was tested by gifted and talented education. People may have heard the gate or the tag claims. I was tested with what was the Woodcock test of achievement. It's basically like a neural psychological testing platform. And I was testing incredibly gifted in certain categories. Primarily, there was a huge split between my verbal and nonverbal learning sections. But otherwise, normal kid, right? I was not diagnosed autistic.

I was not diagnosed with psychological problems. I was run-of-the-mill very normal, but highly gifted when it came to some of my applications in academia. That started this runaway process where a team of psychologists, which again, names, records, all of this is documented, but just to leave some anonymity here in hopes that there is some justice later on in life. A team of psychologist began this relationship working with me, actually coming into the school system around 2005, to better understand how my brain worked. In reality, as a young child, this was all around the fourth grade, so I'm about age nine. now, I was being told to not tell anyone about this. I was being told that, you know, I was a very

special kid. I had a very special brain and no one else would understand. So essentially what this started was gate was this identifier that said, hey, there's something very special that's happening with me. After that happened, a whole bunch of a psychologist began a routine of working with me, not from the school system, but coming into the school system. And essentially started the like internal grooming process with me where I would be separated and basically encouraged to keep this a secret as this progression happened. So that carried on for a few years. And if you can imagine, like take yourself back to elementary school, I didn't really know what to make of this. It was just a lot of testing. There wasn't necessarily anything bad happening

to me. Would they come to class and just kind of pluck you from class? I would get removed from class. So a phone call would come in. Hey, Jordan's got to come down to. you know, so-and-so's office. And that's what I would spend maybe, you know, six hours or sometimes a full day. And where did you grow up? Springville, New York. Okay. Yeah, small rural town in western New York, upstate area. Very small, like graduating class of about 120 kids. And you're like, what, like 10 years oldish? Yep, started around age nine. And for the course of this, as I kind of described, this was between the ages of 9 and 14. Okay. And so when you say, you know, kind of they're saying, Jordan, we want to know how your brain works. And you know, you mentioned the word

grooming. What exactly are they doing? Yeah. So they were very interested. So a couple of things that I can kind of, you know, give some more context on. One, I was testing very highly in these certain categories. Two, I had a very kind of strong ability to visualize. So for example, like at age nine, one of the things that these psychologists were fascinated about was my ability to spell. Because I I was spelling at like a college level. And for me, I had this ability to where I could just visualize a word, right? So it was just kind of in my mind's eye. I didn't know.

I thought every kid did this, right? I could picture a word in my mind and then break apart the letters piece by piece. And as I would tell these psychologists, this, they were trying to understand how I was exhibiting some of these behaviors. Like, they knew what was happening. They were fascinated by it, right? The ability to visualize was something that was a strong point of the later. parts of the program that I progressed into. But at this point, it was just mainly, hey, we want to understand how you're doing some of

these things. You're testing very specific, sit with us, build a relationship with us. And as this progressed, what was happening to me is I was kind of becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the kids, the rest of my teachers. As, you know, you can kind of look in my investigation level of this, my teachers were not told what was going on either, right? nor was the full category given to the school district. It just looked like I had a bunch of absences.

I was being pulled from classes. No one really knew who was pressing the button, right? Who really was the psychologist, who sent them, et cetera. All of this continued within the public school system to where I was just being tested. Relationship was being formed until about like age 12. So getting into like sixth, seventh grade, I began to recognize that like something wasn't right here.

No. The rest of my friends weren't doing this. I wanted to kind of go be normal. I didn't get what any of this was going for. And at the same time as I was kind of like pushing back almost with these people that were coming into me with me. My mother and father at the time, you know, were basically told that I needed to leave the public school system. And it wasn't because I was a special kid. It was because I had grown so unstable that I could no longer. be in the public school system. And essentially a whole mental health diagnoses overlay came on board around the 2010 that provide the justification to remove me from the public school system, whether my parents wanted it or not. And that started my basically academic attendance in this two-year program outside of the public school system. But to back up real quick, you were fine. I was fine. Yeah. I was fine. Yeah. I was fine. So the mental health. health thing was a cover for them to remove you. It was an excuse. Yep. And how did your parents react to all of this? Terrified. My mother at the time was trying to remove me, you know, from the school

district, not having luck. We tried to move at one point, didn't have luck. I was refusing to go to school at one point and, you know, people from the school district were actually showing up and removing me from the house. Like, it was stranger things level stuff. That's insane. It really is like the show Stranger Things in real life, which is based on the Montauk experiment. I'll think a lot of people at this juncture in the interview are probably resonating with some of the stuff you're saying. There are plenty of gate kids out there. And this seems like the initial layers of, you know, what you've experienced, you

experience much deeper stuff. But, you know, there are people out there who have, they have to take the pink drink and they, you know, missed a year gap in their knowledge of their elementary school. and so 100%. Yeah, 100%. And for those kids, right, the other gay people, you know, what I'm ultimately describing is like, Gate serves as this kind of like outside edge almost recruitment, right?

Or almost like identifying mechanism. So so many people are tested within gifted and talented education. Not everyone progresses in further. So like, for example, as I'm meeting with all these psychologists early years, I was enrolling gate, right? Like I was in the gate classroom. I drank the pink drink. It's just that there was a progression of more.

And then getting up to this part of the story in 2008, this was like the public school system in the gate classroom could no longer provide the cover for what they wanted to do experimentation-wise. So to do that, you remove that person from that area. You provide some cover justification on why you're doing that. And that game began a two-year journey to where I attended school into a nondescript since been shut down, sued six ways to Sunday school that was from the outside serving neurodivergent and behavioral health kids. But on the inside was supporting a mission for defense contractor research for psychic potential development.

Okay. Wild. What's the name of that facility? Yeah, yeah. No longer exists now. but at the time it was called Baker Victory Services. This center provides specialized services for students with autism or cognitive disabilities paired with mental health diagnoses. So on the outside looking in, this facility was serving autistic kids, nonverbals, other people with behavior health. They had nurses, psychologists, psychiatrists, all on staff in this school. Think like special education, 8-1-1 classroom, only 40 kids total in the facility. So just like highly structured support.

Golden shovels marked the start of construction of the new $16 million facility at Baker Victory Services. There's a lot of people watching. They might be thinking, okay, this Baker Victory Services, I'm going to go search it. They search it and they see this organization that seems to still be operational today. What's going on with that? Yeah, that's a really good question. So Baker Victory Services still exist today. It's a much larger organization serving a lot of.

other purposes, which are, like, good, right? The organization itself was not the problem. It was the exact location and kind of the element that I was in. So if you want the exact address, like it's very hard to dig up because the facility is closed today, but it was like a 650 Ridge Road. It was a small, nondescript building that was known as a day treatment center. 650 Ridge Road. Right.

And that was like a subsidiary of this Baker Victory Services. Correct. Got it. So it's almost like that was used as a shell. for this other kind of rogue cutout organization. Yeah, yeah, now you're talking. And again, like, even in that facility, legitimate things happening, right?

Legitimate treatment happening for kids that needed it. However, there was just this rogue element that was operating out of it that supported the program that I was involved with. But even with open source research, you do get hints of some malfeasance, right? Yeah, I mean, you can, like, it's not hard to find, right? I think, like, the supervisor was arrested, like, 210 felonies.

I think the news article reads for, like article manipulation or record manipulation. There's a $100 million lawsuit that got settled due to just this huge claim of sexual abuse over the years. OLV Human Services says three employees at the Victory Learning Center in Lackawanna are now on leave over those allegations of physically mistreating students. I like to say there's a lot of smoke, right? You don't really necessarily need to find the fire. You can just look and see that there's been a history of problems at the place.

That's a lot of smoke. $100 million lawsuit over sexual abuse and 210 felonies and falsifying records. We have a model that works for these young people. And it allows them to be the best they can be and go on and leave lives just like you and I. You know, what this looked like is, you know, I would attend school like a normal kid for like two to three days a week. And then for the other two to three days a week, depending on that, I was working heavily with a team of psychologists, researchers, psychiatrists. psychiatrists onto some of the tasks that we can get into. So you're at this facility and they're, they've kind of realized that you're really talented,

even within this kind of group of neurodivergent kids. And then they take you down to this, this basement. And what are they doing there as opposed to kind of the, the top level? Yeah. So when I first got into this, you know, facility at the time for like, there was a period about like two to three months where like things were normal. where I wasn't doing the extracurricular, you know, ESP exercises, the weird psychologists that were coming to see me,

and the public school system were gone and no longer seeing me. So at the time, I was like, I'm rescued, right? The weird stuff has stopped. Two months later, a team of interns get hired, and this team of interns specifically work on me in my case. And the same process that I described, like, in the public school system, kind of restarts. So new person comes in, positions himself as a psychologist and as a therapist, you know, and begins working with me to better understand my relationship with what we called at

the time ESP. And do you remember their names or? Yeah. Yeah. Without, like I said, you know, I'm very hopeful that, you know, our establishment, our government will do something from an investigation standpoint, you know, if they're willing to really take a stab at this. But let's call it Meg. Meg was my one-on-one trainer slash therapist. Okay. And you've provided this information, by the way, to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee. Is that right?

I've provided this information to, you know, past members of Senate Select Intelligence Committee. I've provided to numerous three-letter agencies. I've briefed them, given them the locations, the names, etc. throughout my tenure of really working in the background of disclosure, fighting the good fight alongside guys like David Grush and et cetera. And to this point, nothing has happened. That's really frustrating and annoying. And hopefully after this episode, something does happen.

But so this Baker Victory Services, this organization, it's also a Catholic church, or it's affiliated with the Catholic Church? Yeah, affiliated by it. So there was the, I believe it's termed the Father Baker organization in Western New York. So just think like Catholic nonprofit, you know, doing like good things. This was meant to serve more of the foster home community as well as, you know, just develop a community resource for kids that weren't plugging well into the public school system. So it was a little bit normal where you may see like nonprofits step in and like special education,

get accredited to, like, support the school system. Um, so it wasn't like a literal Catholic school or Catholic church. It just, uh, more or less organizationally existed within that umbrella. Gotcha. And so they realize, okay, Jordan, you are like extremely talented at some of this, you know, extrasensory perception stuff. They take you to the basement and what, what happens there? Yeah, I don't want to make it sound too strange to things.

Yeah. Like it wasn't like going to the basement. Um, you know, like, The facility itself, right, super nondescript didn't look like a school. You never know it was there. You know, like 2008, highly secure. Like the entire thing had components that would be like comparable to what people have called like a skiff before, right? So badge in, badge out, RFID everywhere. No electronics, you know, in the building even as a kid, right? Really? Couldn't bring your PSP in. You couldn't bring. It was like a Faraday cage. Completely. High level security at this place. and I can kind of get into some more levels of security that I experience, you know, as a kid, because as I'm telling this, you know, I've gotten to a point of healing and integration. And now, as you know, right, like trying to fight the good fight to do better about this.

But like, don't mistake the, you know, level of, like, healing that I've done to, you know, really reflect, like, the terror that actually this whole entire experience was like in childhood. You know, essentially it was like being stuck in a, you know, a facility where you had no control, right? There were things very akin to, I don't want to really say torture, but, you know, in some respects, being given medications and substances and things that I don't even know for purposes of experimentation. Like, that's a problem. You know, that's a big problem. It's a huge problem. Well, it's a huge problem for this to happen to you over. multiple years and for them to kind of be grooming you at your school and for your parents to push back to the point of wanting to move and take you out of the school system and for them to keep coming back like the levels of coordination implied here are deep deep level you know and and it's even beyond that like i can tell um later in the story i'll i'll get into some examples of like well hey if you were a kid why didn't you try to you know do something about this i did right it's like many times um

in some of the more like rigorous experiments, I would like get out, call 911 from the school facility, but the lines were surveilled. So you would get through to 911 and then immediately an operator would take over and be like, hey, sorry, someone from the school, one of the kids is like pranktiling 911. So there was like no way in or out of any of this. Also you're a kid. And when you're a kid, you can get conditioned into, you know,

feeling some sort of Stockholm syndrome. And you're told, oh, we're doing this for your benefit or whatever. And you're highly impressionable. And you mentioned, too, that they gave you, there's like this critical window of heightened kind of extra sensory perception ability. And it's before puberty. And they would give you puberty blockers to sort of enhance this. There was all sorts of stuff being administered to me while I was in there. You know, like on paper, right?

Like, so looking back on my own records, like, there were, I think, over a dozen anti-psychotics that I was on during these like two years. So things like Haldol, Olaf, like just to name a few, just a ridiculous amount of medications. That does not reflect what was being administered inside the facility that my parents didn't know about. There were other things that I was being taken. There was other things for specific sessions, right, that would be given that I don't even know. You know, when it comes to the level of like, hey, there's some sigh or, you know, some ability within our brains in a prepubescent era, yeah, that was communicated to me.

And I believe it has something to do with relation over, like, right and left hemispheres before they're fully formed during puberty. But I think essentially it's just at that younger age, I had an ability to essentially exert more than someone else that was an adult. And what sort of experiments would they have you do and what would they test you on? So a lot of the testing, we can kind of think this started off very baseline of like ESP, right? So kind of like thinking about extracensory perception and how that would show up for people. And I was told from like a number one day, like you can just think of all this. This was like ESP training is what essentially, you know, was happening to me there for the idea of this later being utilized in like a defense. establishment, you know, style progression funnel. But, you know, in the beginning, right, ESP,

and it's highly structured for each person. And that's what I would be told, right? Like, for example, they would be giving me a lot of tests and a lot of experiments and, like, seeing how I respond or seeing how I would apply this because there was no, like, a rubric or there was no, like, cheat sheet on, like, you do the same thing every time and it works the same way for everyone. I was instead told that everyone's highly unique and you need to kind of develop your own way of doing this. Once you have your own way of doing this will help you amplify it. It's kind of a way to think about that. So, for example, a lot of the very early on sessions would be understanding my abilities.

How are they showing up from a cognitive perspective? Did I process information more kinesthetically? Like, was it more I feel things in my body? Was I processing it more auditory, right? Like, hey, telepathy, I hear it, right? Or in my case, I was a highly visual person, right? So I had the ability to get out of my body, see in the other room, see things from, you know, a distance, right? And kind of shift my awareness visually.

So for the progression of most of the time in these two years, I was highly working on visual abilities. So sort of similar to remote viewing programs or, you know, or out of body, things like that? 100%. Yeah. So we were doing a lot different stuff than like you'll see from like the Stanford Research Institute or like the Stargate area where you see a lot of like CRV techniques, right? Like control, repeatable, follow a technical process.

I was given a whole kind of different regimen of like training and teaching that kind of relied primarily on getting our subconscious mind to believe that something was possible. And I can kind of go into this in a little bit more detail. So for like a typical remote viewing exercise, you're given a target, you may have a protocol, maybe you're doing some meditation or some, you know, bilateral simulation or auditory stuff to help you take information out of that target. You might see it visually. You might see it otherwise, otherwise you're taking information, you know, kind of from the field. In my training, they were, more interested with getting me to subconsciously believe that awareness is essentially the substrate

of this entire universe. And our awareness can shift into any other piece of awareness in this underlying universe. So what this would mean is like instead of trying to remote view into a room or let's say I remote viewed into a hallway but I was having issues of getting through a door, there was a lot of subconscious training to basically help me understand that my awareness could become the door. I could become the room. I could become the filing cabinet where the documents are in and then extract the information that way. So it was a lot less viewing. It was a lot more manipulating your own awareness to become the things that we see in the universe.

That's fascinating. So it's almost like a pan-psychist worldview or something where maybe everything is someone. somewhat conscious or everything is at least awareness. And you can port your own awareness into what we think of as even inanimate unconscious objects. 100%. Yeah. So it's like the underlying substrate of the universe as we want to take it back. Whether it's awareness or it is this undefined substrate, it is accessible, malleable, and reflexive to awareness.

So you can either, A, place your awareness in it or you could perhaps exert some control from shifting your awareness. It's either a possible vessel for awareness or it's awareness itself or it's somehow compatible with awareness. Yeah. Yeah, I tell this story too for a lot of people. Like, you know, as we get into like consciousness research now, I often use the analogy that like consciousness, you can perceive more as like a vehicle. Imagine a car, four tires, right, and a steering wheel.

And that's how you can kind of think is consciousness. It's like the vehicle that gets driven. However, awareness is actually what's sitting in the driver's seat of the car. Right. So a lot of things can hold consciousness, but awareness is actually that kind of like universal substrate of like the is. And when you follow that perception better, you can kind of better understand, well, like, how could you get out of your body? How could you shift into something? Well, it's actually not necessarily consciousness. It's like that's the holder and the vehicle and the container. But there's awareness. That's a step deep. Fascinating. So what sort of specifically they would say, okay, remote view what's in the other room or would they give you a target like in, you know, we hear about in kind of traditional military remote viewing programs? Yeah, all sorts of different exercises. I would be given targets. A lot of this was like testing, right? So it's like there were in terms of like the regimented aspect, like they did have these exercises kind of mapped out. for a lot of the remote viewing or like the astral projections, the way that we were doing it, like I just described,

we were actually doing it with a partner. So like Meg in that example would often like walk through what we call the relaxation exercise, right? But in reality it was some type of auditorial stimulation, right? The headphones, different binaural beats that were helping me access, you know, different brainwave states. And then, you know, Meg would have essentially kind of like a checklist, right? And this checklist was to get my subconscious mind to relax.

This would be like, hey, we are, we're flying a plane. You don't have to worry about flying the plane. All you need to do is tell me what you see. So I would be, you know, continuously walked down through a state of consciousness to where, you know, I was outside of my body. And there was like a partner duo team of coaching, giving inputs on like, I need you to go here. What do you see? Right.

And then where that actually served a huge benefit is like in traditional remote viewing, right, it's very common for a remote viewer to like get to a certain point and just hit a roadblock and just be like, I can't get through this. But if you have someone else in the experience with you, you can kind of riff on each other, right? So you can think of other out-of-the-box solutions to get your awareness to the target or whatever you're trying to go. So everything that we were doing was highly team-based. And for most of those two years, right, this was like,

they had some outcomes that they already knew, right? And this was kind of tracking my accuracy on how good I could get. Were they using an EEG to map your electrical brain signals? So not for like every remote viewing natural projection signal, but that was a key part of this, you know, development in the program. So, you know, earlier on the chair, right, I call it the chair, but this was where a lot of my traumatic memories actually, like came back in that earlier 22, like the one.

like the ones that I really didn't understand would be me in a chair with what I now know now is like a neurofeedback EEG headset but at the time right didn't have the language to articulate it and a screen right with my brainways being shown and I would be asked like cycle through different cognitive applications like hey visualize something or you know try to communicate you know with the plant right whatever type of uh you know ESP level thing we were doing and they were watching my brainwave signals. And then I would be asked at certain times to be like, hey, whatever you just did two seconds ago,

I need you to repeat that. So they were highly interested in theta spikes as well as gamma spikes. And there was some level of neurofeedback being used to like reinforce this. So as I would actually like exert, hey, I visualized in a unique way, well, that produced a gamma spike. They were interested in how can we get that to hold longer? Why do you think theta and gamma were interesting to them? Just deeper levels of like neuron level of

like symbiosis. Like for example, like in a gamma spike or when the brain's really operating like at a gamma level, it's almost as if like every neuron's beginning to synchronize and almost fire at the same time. So instead of just having a reduced brainwave state, right, you're having essentially like this is where I'm not a neurologist. I'm not a neuroscientist.

Just to be very clear here. I'm butchering this up just from my own understanding. But basically, I think that there's a high level of amplitude when it comes to ESP level activities when someone can get into a gamma state. Yeah, it's extremely high frequency. And like, like, you know, one of the highest. And it's interesting that you were saying that they wanted you to access your subconscious. It's almost like undergirding your conscious thoughts are these subconscious beliefs. I don't want to interrupt me.

No, please. No, just to add on that. So, like, that's a huge key part of, like, any type of psychic development. If your subconscious does not believe that whatever you're doing is possible, then your conscious mind will not allow it to be possible. Your subconscious has to believe it, right? It's like belief almost equals reality in this regard. And I think this applies to, like, a lot of people when they hear about psychic phenomena,

they hear about UFOs or UIP. Like, they're very well may be a cognitive filter. that we don't yet have mapped, right? And like, why do some people experience some things? Why do some people see a UAP, but some don't, right? There might literally be like a subconscious protective mechanism where if your subconscious mind doesn't believe that it's possible, then it's not going to become possible in your reality,

your experience of perception. And I believe that to be true just because of how much work went into getting, you know, me trained on the subconscious level. If you can do this, you can remove you, you can shift your awareness, you can do all these things, you have to believe it. one of my favorite quotes is on rebeberg's zone uh the eyes can only see what the mind can comprehend and that's you know i think this beautiful it very telling sort of and they do they do these tests where it's you know did you see the gorilla walking across the room like you were counting

the amount of dribbles in the video whatever and you know people don't see the obvious thing because they're not looking for it so attention is really important and they even get into the reticular activation system and the brain and why that is uh there are all sorts of studies around that and then hypnosis too it's like you can literally you know go to a magic show and you know somebody will you know get you into some sort of hypnotized state on stage or you could see this in the audience and you say you know hey you're you're stuck to the floor and all of a certain the person stuck to the floor they can't move their arms apart um so the subconscious mind is extremely powerful um as far as you know how it affects uh your reality and uh yeah that's interesting

So they're using biofeedback, almost some sort of like Pavlovian conditioning, or you have this partner who's kind of helping you get into the states where you can move around as far as your subconscious more freely. Or to put it better, you can actually change your subconscious beliefs, whereas you're not getting that deep in sort of normal conscious awareness. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. That's one way to think about it. ultimately like the partner you know level dynamic of this one it was just kind of more useful for the training but two right you had someone else that could provide a secondary perspective right and like just for the viewer like to imagine this like I'm I'm in a deep relaxed meditative state

right I'm probably like in a theta wave state I have some level of binaural beats right that are helping me kind of shift my awareness out of body however I'm still able to communicate right like through my mouth, right? I'm not like in my body. I'm visualizing. I'm way out here. But the act of talking is still kind of something that I can do. And from that, I can still hear, right, the partner that's next to me.

That can help me maybe understand here's a way to think outside of the box. So if you get stalled, you're trying to get into a different place, trying to get into a different thing, that partner can give you a secondary perspective that's useful that you can apply back into the experience. So, you know, different perspectives are like, that was the key to all of this. So like this whole different level of like projection and viewing. If you could imagine the way that you viewed whatever you were viewing, right, whether that be from the third person perspective or perhaps, like I use the example before,

if you run into a roadblock, you're trying to see what's on the other side of a door and you can't seemingly find a way to get your awareness there. well, your awareness can become that door, right? Like, that's that idea of, you know, seeing outside the box. And do you get the sense that they want your skills at this facility because of their functional benefit for specific operations? Or is it more like, let's train Jordan up to be this child super soldier psychic? So as we've like now seen, right, in this, you know, disclosure cycle, you know,

the pieces that have. been really held back. And for good reason, right, because here I am, there's massive human rights violations, you know, but what this was serving? What was this? What was I a part of? Well, I was in a, you know, psionic development pipeline for legacy program development. So the idea being is I was not supposed to leave this program, right? This was, hey, for a few years while your brain is in the state that we can make malleable and train before puberty. We can install these things. We can get you highly specialize or whatever your specialty is going to be. And then later on, you're going to end up, you know, being sucked into deeper levels of the legacy

program, whether that be, you know, UAP and crash retrieval operations or whether that be, hey, our remote viewing, espionage, or other level of psionic applications. So this was like one of the aspects of that pipeline that would have went on to serve that. What convinces you that this was sort of a feeder for the UFO legacy program? Because I think some people listening might be like, okay, this is. this is extra sensory perception, isn't that wholly separate from, you know, nuts and bolts,

UFOs, reverse engineering, that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, well, they're not. Mainly because I interacted at later stages with this with what we consider like recovered materials. Other language used from inside the program were actually relics, make of that what you will. But I've told the story publicly

on a piece of technology that I interacted with that I'm happy to kind of tell again here. And the story is about this piece of tech. Yeah. And this is at the same Baker facility. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So this, this was brought in.

So this tech, whenever we worked with tech, it never existed in the facility. But what would happen is there would be a team that would bring it in. Highly specialized, highly structured, never see these people. I wasn't allowed to interact with them. But essentially it'd be like eight security personnel and a huge box, you know. And then I would be in the room with a team of people watching me. and they were utilizing me essentially in the experience that I'll get to here next, to better understand how something worked that wouldn't communicate with them,

but would actually communicate telepathically to people with certain types of consciousness and I was one of them. And what we'll find, as disclosure continues, or as we already know from people that have spoken out like Jacob Barber and others, is that consciousness is actually the root of disclosure. consciousness is the root of UAP and UFO phenomena. It's not necessarily a materialistic aspect. It's that there's something far more,

whether you want to consider it dimensional or not, that is taking on a materialistic form. But consciousness is the core piece of all of it. So you begin to see the world not necessarily some fixed, static, materialistic universe that we live in. You see it as something that's dynamic, reflexive, and the underlying substrate is not materialistic. It's how we perceive it at our level of consciousness.

So here's another interesting kind of story that ties into this because in that program that I worked on, right, we also worked with something called R&Gs, right, a random number generators. And for those that aren't familiar, right, it's many different ways to build R&Gs. Some are better than others. I won't get into the details,

but just think random number generator, right? we as an I would have the ability to influence it with my thoughts. And this was one of the ways that they like very early tested. You know, was this person psychically active? Could they have an effect on that field that I'm describing? And even though this is technological, a random number generator, there are examples where I personally and watched other kids push them sigmas, sigmas of multitudes and held for hours just by using our thoughts.

That's amazing. Yeah. So you can, you can standard deviations of changes on these things that are supposed to be tied to random quantum mechanical events. So things like radioactive isotope decay or, you know, double slit experiment where you'd expect a 50-50 on, you know, the left slit, the right slit. And, you know, that is tied to like, you know, what's a, you know, binary computer where you have ones and zeros. And you can, what you're saying is you can affect it in a really statistically significant way. to get a lot of ones or a lot of zeros. Yeah, yeah. It's actually like one of the most fun things to teach, you know, that you can actually do this as an individual. Like you can go find a flash RNG. You can go find an RNG online. We're building an RNG later in our app that we'll kind of get to later in this episode.

But you can test your own ability to do this, right? And you can figure out and hone in that own intuitive signal. There's not, again, a one-size-fits-all that works for everyone. some people are like, wow, I kinesthetically imagine myself vibrating and then the RNG moves. For someone else, it's I think of love, right? And then the RNG moves. Like everyone has kind of their own unique signals that seem to affect and have a better relationship with the field around us. But like that's one of the most interesting things that I think people, when they begin like looking into SIE or they're hearing about past psychic stuff,

they want to see, look, there's no data, there's no nothing. And I'm not going to say that that prove some mechanism or some exact connection of why and how. But there's definitely a correlation. There's definitely correlation. And there's actually a ton of data. Yeah. There's a ton of data from the Princeton, you know, Parapsychology lab, the Perilab, the Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was founded by Bob John, who was the dean of the engineering school, who, you know, a lot of whose, you know, plasma propulsion exists today in satellites was very well respected and studied this stuff for decades from 78 to 2007 or something, and came out being like, without a shadow of a doubt, this is real.

And he would engage with top-level physicists, and they would say things like, oh, what was a survivorship bias and file drawer? And, you know, you're making this up. And he'd say, no, look at the data. And sort of you end up in these sort of infinite loop things where they say, it can't be. And he was like, no, it is. and it's wholly consistent with the, you know, Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics that the observer collapses the wave function. It's just that the observer, we have no model now for which, you know, other than, you know, the square of the amplitude, which is, you know, the likelihood, the probability that you get a certain eigenstate.

We have no mechanistic understanding of which eigenstate, which state in a wave function gets picked. But anyway, I do want to get back to the core. Because we left people very excited, I'm sure, about this relic, which was, it was, what did it look like exactly? Yeah, yeah. So my first introduction of this was actually not in the facility, okay? I think that my interaction in the experience that I'm going to describe here was highly paramount into me getting removed from the public school system and into the facility. It was almost like a check. But basically, I had, as I described, one of those psychologists, right, that were still coming to see me in the public school system.

I was taken out and I was actually brought to his office. Okay. Right. And as I walked into his office, right, just think normal blending in residential neighborhood, run-of-the-mill psychologist. This isn't deep underground military base. It's just super run-of-the-mill. I walk in, I'm being instructed to, you know, go see, you know, go see the doctor.

And as I opened the door, the first thing that I noticed is like, well, even before I opened the door, in the hallways. leading into where the therapy office was, I noticed that there was like two people at the end of the hallway that I've never seen before. Plain clothes, dressed, just like two big dudes. I'm like, that's weird. And as they open the door and I get brought in,

immediately there's my doctor, the psychologist, a woman that I've never seen before, glasses, business professional dressed skirt, like wearing, has a clipboard. And she's sitting down next. to them, like on a couch together. And is this before or after the Baker Victory Services facility? This is three months before I got put in a Baker victory.

Okay, got it. This is three months. Okay. And this is just run of the mill. I get pulled out of the psychologist, get pulled out of the school system, going to see the psychologist, get born in the office. This happens. Okay.

So, yep, there's people in the hallway, never seen before. There's my psychologist. And then there's also this female, right, clipboard, will not make eye. contact with me, like, weirdly enough, like, won't even acknowledge my existence. And I felt that was, like, super odd. And then there's a few other people, a few other just like big males, again, like plain clothed in the room, like looking out the windows in this office. In the center, like think table, maybe combined size if you put these together. Um, there's a table. So couch, table. People over here. I'm asked to kind of go take a seat next to this table. There's what in my

young mind, I would call a blanket, right, over an object that I can't make out over this, like, coffee table. Looking backwards now, like, the blanket was, like, some type of Faraday shielding, right? Some type of, like, electromagnetic shielding or something. But my psychologist, who I knew, right, begins talking to me. None of the other people in the room will talk to me. That the female won't know. This is what was just, like, very eerie for me at the time.

But the psychologist is like, hi, Jordan, like, hey, we have something really special for you today. You don't have to do anything. We just want you to tell us what you think of something, right? We're going to show it to you. Again, you don't have to do anything. Just tell me what you think about it, right? I'm like already traumatized, nervous, what's happening, okay?

This again. So some, I think it was the female. She pulls the blanket like the Faraday shielding off from the coffee table and sitting at the center of the coffee table on a pedestal, right, like a three-prong pedestal. is what I would describe as a, think of a wizard's orb. Like, quite seriously, a little bit smaller than a basketball, has a defined shell, clear looking like wizard's ball, right? Now, here's what's unique about this, okay?

It has a defined shell. It's a literal crystal orb, but the inside of this orb, for lack of a better word, was alive. So it had a structure that, if you could imagine almost like, If you were to imagine Jupiter in your mind and Jupiter's like swirling atmosphere, imagine that inside the sphere, but highly white, highly crystallized, highly like almost you're looking into a VVS diamond. It's fractalized, it's swirling, and it's emitting its own light source. Right. So there's this, it's fixed, defined shell, crystal orb crystal sphere.

There's this inside structure that I can only really attribute to it. It is alive. It is alive. How big is it? A little bit smaller than a basketball. A little bit smaller than a basketball. So, like, maybe take a quarter off of your globe on that side. And what color?

Think, like, white diamond. Okay. The color was really hard on this because it was almost like, think of your studio lights almost actually. It was like this fractalized light inside of it and outside of it. There wasn't really like a color. It was just this white pure light. And it's emitting light out of it, right?

what's interesting the first thing that I noticed is the psychologist goes like hey we want you you don't have to do anything just tell me what you think about it and I look at it right so I actually take my two eyes and I lock eye contact with this thing and as I locked eye contact with it the inside structure that I described right that was like fractalize like jukeers atmosphere kind of swirling it adapts and it like changes and it's almost as if this object as I'm looking at it is now looking back at me right So that is the first thing that I noticed. This happens within like two seconds.

And when that happens, I actually become like really scared. Because I also begin feeling this somatic sensation. I felt it very much like literally in my brain where I almost felt like this thing was coming into me. And it made me like terrified. I didn't ever feel that sensation. It wasn't telepathy. It was like, hey, this thing is almost linking with you is the way that I actually felt. and I was just like highly terrified of it.

I noticed that as I moved my eyes back and forth, right, this inside structure was actually like mirroring my eye movement. And that lasted for 30 seconds and the blanket was put back over the thing. And the psychologist, his words to me were like, wow, you did great. You did great. You did great. You don't have to do anything. It picks who it likes.

And I think it likes you. Whoa. That is wild. And that was the start of my relationship with Sylvia. They named the orb Sylvia? It was her name. Yeah. It was her name.

And I mean that mainly because as I later, you know, the start of this relationship to where essentially the people in the program had this thing. I don't know where it came from. I don't know where this crystal orb came from. I don't, it was never told me. The sentient consciousness as I'll get into and expand as I interact with this, never told me where it was from. It wasn't like, oh, we found this from a spacecraft or we dug this up over anywhere. I will note that the people within the program, the people that were actually shepherding this thing around, didn't call it tech.

They called it a relic. Called it a relic. Yeah. And they said its name is Sylvia, or did it transmitting? admit its name to you? So that was my first time interacting with it, like, locally, right? So it was in the room with me. I had this really quick, like, 30 second make eye contact. It looks at me. I could feel it, right? But, like, that was it. That was it. Now fast forward, like, three months later, now I'm back in this facility. I have this trainer Meg, right? As we're exploring ESP,

she brings up, like, hey, I heard you met Sylvia. right and like can you recall that experience and i was brought into like another relaxation exercise she says i heard you met sylvia that orb thing her name is sylvia yeah yeah yeah well we to back up there was a there was some context in that conversation i heard that you were introduced to something right and and i was actually brought into like this relaxation exercise with meg and she was like do you know what its name is and as i'm in this relaxation exercise, I could take myself out of body and I almost like make contact. So it's like as if once I was physically linked with this, you know, like device, relic, whatever we want to call it, it was like it

developed like a tunnel or a pathway to where like I could communicate with it back. And this began a longer process throughout the program to where they wanted to better understand this thing. So that first example with Meg, I saw it once, different psychologists, office, now I'm back here in this whole programmatic environment, I was actually asked, what do you think its name is? And I could take myself into this astral environment, feel the same energy from it. And it would show up to me visually, like this very silver, fractalizing type energy. And in one of the experiences, it was telling me that his name was Sylvia. So later on, it was brought back in

and I was essentially like this in-between process to better understand what they couldn't understand about it. So it didn't telepathically link with anyone else. It wouldn't talk to anyone else. They didn't know what this thing was. It was basically my understanding. So I would be given tasks on like,

hey, we need you to go talk to Sylvia and we need you to come back with like a schematic. We want you to draw how it works or we want you to give us a blueprint on how it works. We need you to ask it these things. We need you to go back and forth. Do you remember anything that it transmitted to you? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's the really interesting things with it, right? So here's this crystal or device, fractal, right? It was sentient and conscious and felt alive. It didn't communicate through mouth. It communicated telepathically. As it would communicate telepathically, the first and foremost, like the most interesting thing is that it was feminine. right so it wasn't like this is just an interesting dynamic like it had like from an auditory sensation

it had more of a female's voice it would describe and introduce itself to me as more feminine and i think this is like really interesting as we begin thinking about like deep dimensionality and like metaphysics and how gender perhaps like scales throughout dimensions i don't think it goes away right i think like here this third dimension human experience it's like yeah you're male or female right and and fixed or some fluidity between that. But perhaps as you scale up outside of a body or you're like ascended consciousness or wherever, whatever Sylvia is, it's that gender was more of a spectrum. It wasn't like this fixed thing.

And that would be something that was communicated to me. Also, it was essentially told to me in one of the earlier sessions that Sylvia represented more of this thing that we would equate to like a human thought form. And in the deepest communication session that I had with it, it was being shown to me that, like, Sylvia was human thoughts. Almost we as humans, everything we create, everything we think, everything we're consciously experiencing, takes on some form somewhere else. And this energy or this thing is actually very connected to our own thoughts, right? So it's like, as we imagine things, maybe they become real, right? was kind of like the lesson in all of this.

And then from that point forward, everything that the program staff are trying to get out of it, like how does it work? Jordan, you know, draw a schematics of it. It didn't want to work with them. So it would be like they would bring it in. I would go in with a session.

Nothing would really happen. And they would just get upset with me. Like go back and try again, right? And that was really, from what I understand, a lot of the. stuff that I interacted with was like, hey, they were trying to figure it out. Do you think it was good, evil? Did you have any context on how they acquired it?

No idea how they acquired it. It itself, this is also like very interesting, right? Like, well, hey, like, why would this, whatever it is interdimensional, different sentient life thing? Like, why would it let this happen to you? It was 100% neutral. It is, it was the epitome of like neutrality. Like, it did not take.

sides it didn't like it was just so neutral is what was interesting so which i would think like again as you you know almost ascend up in like awareness levels you have to become non-duilistic you have to become neutral so it was like yeah was this bad well it looks bad right in that moment but it's who defines what's good bad and evil right like there is no fixed state and duality that is fascinating do you still feel somewhat entangled with this object? I don't. I don't. I don't.

It's been interesting because I'm curious, right? Like, I'm curious is it still kicking around some defense contractors, you know, like bunker, but I don't know. Have you ever heard of anything like it? No, no. I've never, the best comparison also I can kind of give you, which is interesting, is what is it, this Salvatore Del Mundi, Da Vinci's Painting of Christ, right?

If you're familiar with that, in that photo crisis, like holding this crystallized orb, right? I believe it's in his left or his right hand. It was very similar to like that size, right? And again, more fractalized, but I always find that interesting

and because of the language that was being used as relic, like perhaps this isn't something from, you know, NHI or something that crashed here. Like maybe these things have been here a long time, which also ties into thousands of years of esoteric tradition, esoteric wisdom, right? Like here we are kind of talking about, you know, for those that may not be familiar of this, I worked very closely, you know, leading up to Skywatcher with Ross Goldhardt. And Ross Goldhardt.

Edge reported about this experience at Esselan Institute in California last year, Big Sur, or 2024, where I led a exercise, we shared people the same protocols that I was taught in childhood of how to make contact with NHI, right? And we did. It was incredible. We had plasma orbs. We had essentially these blue orbs that came and think 50 yards of people. Like out of the ocean, up through the air, it was amazing. It was the most incredible thing. And then also, like, let's think about a moment, like, what the shamans have been talking about for two thousands of years. Think about, like, Native American indigenous, you know, elders, right, who have been communicating with, like, blue light, you know, for thousands of years. Like,

all of the parallels are actually beginning to come together here. So it's not that this is some necessarily, in my opinion, or my worldview, some extra terrestrial or some, you know, like very outside the self-level of phenomena. It's that like all of this is just different slices of the same pie. And consciousness and awareness is the core of it. Mm-hmm. While you were at Baker Victory Services, did they ever have you fly a craft or lock on to a thing and move it with your consciousness?

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free shipping and a free rechargeable frother. When you use code jesse at mudwater.com, that's M-U-D-W-T-R.com. Now back to today's show. Yeah, so there was another aspect that they were highly interested in developing, and this was something called the Prometheus system. And for those that know the story of Prometheus, like, you know, go figure, right?

The bringer of fire to humanity, of course, they would name this such device called the Prometheus system. Yeah. So I would call it the Faustian system or something. So just like I've described my interactions as Sylvia, right, like highly telepathic, right? Just linking through consciousness. that seems to be exactly how most of these UAP, UFO, other materials are interacted with, right? So they're not flown with joysticks. They're flown through the mind, right?

And to tie into this, right, I would have examples to where there would be other objects. I would be sometimes brought just into the same, you know, lab environment in Rubin-Baker-Victory. I wasn't like on an airfield, right? but from that process of, you know, working with my brainwaves, getting in the state, it was clear that I was working with something somewhere else, right? So there were examples to where there were objects that I would be asked to shift my conscious awareness in, right? So like, let me back up.

Piloting the UAP, right? Piloting whatever it is. Not going to talk about descriptions or anything. Again, phone for the mind. You mesh with it consciously. How do you do that? you take your consciousness outside of your body and you become that object, right? And there's an art and a skill of doing this.

So the same way that right now my consciousness feels like it's in my body, I would lay in a deep meditation. I would have some type of, you know, perhaps sedative or some type of, you know, other substance often used, different auditory aids and shift my consciousness into said object or some vehicle and become it. and from that point of view, actually demonstrate command and control, right? Pilot it up and down, move it left and right.

And you would do that by shifting and almost taking event. We started this conversation on like observation and awareness. Well, to actually like send commands and controls and these things, you're doing that through the art of shifting your own perception and awareness. So for example, let's say there was an orb or something and I was asked to fly it. I would shift my consciousness into it, and when that would happen, I would typically experience what I would describe as like a split. If you can imagine like a split screen video game, right? This is all my mind's eye. Imagine a split screen video game where you see something on the left

and something on the right. I would basically give these commands and shift my own perspective of myself and said object to get it to move. So on the left hand side, I would imagine something from the third person perspective. So I'm imagining the object, my surroundings, what everything looks like around me. And on the right hand or the right hemisphere, I'm imagining my forward-looking first-person perspective. And by the art of flip-flopping the two,

I want to travel here from my first-person perspective. And then on my third person on my left side, I'm imagining what it looks like and I'm already there. You would actually get this thing to move, right? Now, they had a lot of EEG monitoring on me as I was doing this. And this is where the Prometheus system would come in, right? So a highly gifted psychic kid can mesh their consciousness and get said object or UAP to move.

Well, how do we give that power to an Air Force guy, right, who's not have an open consciousness, does not have an open heart? So there was something actually happening at the brainwave level, you know, something, what entanglements were showing, what brainwaves were showing, I don't know. but from what I understand, what they were trying to do is build a brain neural interface, right? So watching my brainwaves as I interacted with this thing and then creating a mechanistic machine, an interface that would reproduce the brainwave signals that I was sending out, so then you could boil it back down to someone with a controller, right?

So now that they have a controller, I can't do this thing myself, but as I push up, it's sending the brainwave that we know Jordan, you know, communicated and move up. That is wild. It's a lot quickly. Being used kind of like as a human joystick or as a bridge to you have the mind meld. And then it's so wild. This is so crazy. But it also dovetails with this kind of book that the Pentagon censored seven pages of redactions,

the Sentinels of Ether book that Jake Barber put out pseudonymously under the pen name Alva Douglas. And it's all about this. It's all about this, you know, neural interfaces between the brain and these crafts. And that's how you fly them. That's how you actually get them to show up. And what he calls P3s, people with psionic predisposition potentials. And they're sort of flying the crafts. And then you have, like you said, they're the ones who are kind of heart-centered,

but they're also sometimes kind of, you know, given a lot of pharmacological aides, that's a total euphemism, you know, they're drugged to get into these states. And then you have people from the Air Force, just ordinary people, using these people to fly the objects. It's really crazy. Yeah, it sounds incredibly sci-fi. But like, that's the reality of it. That's so wild. And so do you know what you're locking on to? Do you know what the objects are that you're locking on to when you're sitting in this chair what's what happens so i i i don't know i don't how did i say this i don't know how to answer that like specifically what i can tell you is like there were different objects okay so like just like in the skywatcher environment right like we were

seeing different classes of uap yes uh to my understanding the you know military industrial complex has multiple classes of UAP, right? Some may be the Manta ray styles, some may be the triangle, some may be this. And every person, right, almost on a consciousness level signal, would perhaps mate up or not made up with some of them. So it was like, I might work very well with object A, but I can't work with object B or C. And in my localized testing and experience, like, again, this was like two years of highly standardized like preparation. to get me to a point where I would have been doing that full time, right? But again, it didn't happen in my life story, thank God.

So in my experiences, they were highly limited. It was just like, I got the muscle memory. They got to see that I could do it, but it wasn't like I was doing this every day. It wasn't like, hey, go take the UAP and run an admission or something like that. Yeah. It's just I had enough times where I ran through the process to be able to articulate it back here today.

And for context, just for the audience, you mentioned Skywatcher. I've done a show with James Fowler. Jake Barber, who also kind of, you know, Ross Coldhart originally introduced his story to the world. He worked for a contractor that was probably Northrop Grumman. That's through my own and other people's open source research. That's not his own admission. He said you could probably guess.

So I want to make that clear. But he basically said that he retrieved a couple of crafts. One was an eight gone shaped. It had eight different sides. And the other was an egg-shaped craft. and he was this helicopter pilot who went through the Air Force Combat Control Pipeline and was then sheep dipped or erased basically from the Special Forces, you know, traditional pipeline and turned into kind of this ghost who was doing extremely sensitive missions for nuclear emergency support

and with high value targets and that sort of thing. And that involved UFO crash retrievals. After he came out, he started this organization called, Skywatcher and you were a part of this. And this involved essentially getting people with these psionic predisposition potentials to call in craft and then also calling in the craft with these sort of machine-based systems. Is that right? Yeah. So here's here to give a little bit more context here too to kind of wrap this up for people. All of these were experiences in childhood for me, right? And like we started this to like show out. I had no memory of this for a lot of

year. So like, 2003, things completely burned down, right? I'm having memories of this. Good luck, right? Who do you call? I think I was a part of this compartmentalized program, right? There's no, there's no resource for you. So I just did my best to, you know, find ways to psychologically get myself better without, you know, getting labeled schizophrenic, right? Without going out the deep end and without killing myself. I had a suicide attempt, you know, to be completely honest with you in January 23. because I cannot speak to the level of disparity of like, wow, you wake up in a matter of two months and remember an entire childhood that you once forgotten. You have records, you know, describing a life that you don't remember. Like, it feels very Jason Borny, but instead you're the main character and stranger things.

Dude, I can only imagine. And I'm so grateful that you're here and you're so good. You know, you're on such a good wavelength and you have such a good trajectory. and I don't know how you integrate that amount of traumatic past experience in such a short period of time, especially when it comes up unprovoked. It's not like you were attempting to do some search of like, what's causing my maladies. Oh, I'm going to, you know, it's just, it's sort of, you know, you were high stress environment with startups and you had a relationship, you know, end and then. Yeah, yeah. Damn, man.

Yeah. Yeah, like, again, completely guided on this path, you know, as we talk about NHI and everything. Like, all of this is really just brought me closer, you know, to my own, you know, idea and version in relationship with God. You know, to see all these moments where it's like, wow, you know, it didn't quite make it. But again, to be in a situation today to be able to articulate this and actually push the needle forward for humanity, right? Not for the military, not for the industrial complex. Actually, like, putting the power back in our own hands, like, yeah, that's worth living for. That's a beautiful thing. Yeah, it's amazing. And you should be proud of yourself. And yeah, so this happens in 23. Yeah, go for it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this happens in 23 and it starts a long-term healing process. You know, met some amazing people, you know, build some trust along the way, but just like highly independent transjournaling, highly, you know, basically ways to deal with this trauma. And I started to, you know,

investigating my own past, right? Like, where did this happen? Who are these people? You know, how did this all essentially happen to me? And that got to getting into like 2004. And as people know, right, at this time, David Grush had stepped out, reported to Congress. And I was essentially looking at like, well, here's the missing piece, right? Like, I experienced it and lived it. And in in 2024, after going through just a lot of healing, getting all of the supporting records, evidence, all everything to kind of just support the credibility in my case, I may contact with Ross Colhart. And food under D.C., met with Ross, you know, did the, you know,

followed the same footsteps as many others, right? Did the whole testimony. And it was at that point that Ross introduced me to Jacob Barber. So this was before Jacob Barber had went public. I met him, I think it was like June of 24 or something along those lines. But, yeah, I was developing a relationship with Ross. he was highly, highly supportive and introduced me to Jake. And he said like, hey, here's this guy.

I've been working with behind the scenes. And at that point, Jake was the first individual that knew what I was talking about that I had like truly encountered. Because I worked up many channels before this. I was, you know, trying to talk to state police departments, this, this, this. I was talking to other people, you know, ex-agency people. And it like really speaks to the level of. of compartmentalization that like aspects of the legacy program have. It's like it's a far smaller club than most people think.

Far smaller club. But I finally made contact with Jake. And, you know, hearing from Jake, you know, essentially he, he experienced many similarities, you know. I think just by latitude of being involved in the operations that he was involved with, he was familiar with what I went through, you know, in childhood. He was also gifted and talented education. He was. He was a gate kid.

Yeah. Yeah. I think his family's highly. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot there. In the gate program as a kid, gate program is a program. It's an acronym for gifted and talented education. And that allowed me to do a lot of things.

I excelled in art and music actually and the sciences. Had entered a science contest and won a state science. fair based on a project I had done. I won't go into too many details. He can tell his own story, but yeah, there's some similarities, you know, I think in many, many of the gate people's stories. But I met Jake and Jake introduced me to the Skywatcher cohort James Fowler, Alex at the time. And, you know, what really struck me was, you know, I was in this situation of like,

I'm not really a whistleblower, right, but like I'm attempting to try to do right. I'm trying to find the right people to get an investigation open. And then you meet these wonderful guys at the top, right, like pinnacle of special operations community, like, yeah, we've been doing this for years, right? And that was really what I think a lot of people missed from the Skywatcher story was they looked at very surface level. But also, there's just a lot of very credible people who have been trying to fight the good fight and get information out.

So I elected to kind of join the team and lead the psionic operations piece of really with the principle of if our government is not going to disclose, perhaps we can create the conditions necessary, document that and bring that to science and bring that to the world. So we don't need our governments, right? Had an amazing time with them. Great people worked with some of the best operators that I've ever worked with in my life. But I've actually left the Skywatcher team last July. And the reason being highly personal for me, but I was just kind of beginning to get

It's a sensation that we need less military, honestly, right? We need less of this kind of like wounded masculine. We're going to go figure this out. What we actually need is like the public support. We need the next generation thinkers. We need the next generation industry to begin working on disclosure. We don't need the highly compartmented. I've worked in defense my entire life.

And, you know, that's been my trajectory. I just don't see that being the best like next chapter for us. Yeah. Also, I would say, you know, and I'm always like a split mind, right? Like to the people who are like, there was nothing going on and they weren't provoking any sort of UFOs to appear. I'm like, no, I think they were. I think a lot of stuff was showing up for them. We definitely. And then, and that's sort of, you know, got to hold those people at bay. And then on the other side, just the idea that you can somehow subsume this ancient sacred practice.

of communing with these celestial objects, which has gone on since, you know, the days of Yamblicus, the Syrian, you know, neoplatonist or Ezekiel or, you know, whatever you want to date it back to, probably before that, right? And you can somehow provoke these things to come and then use them in some instrumental way

to derive material, to confer a tactical warfare advantage via an adversary. Just feels like the wrong framework. Overall, it's like, that doesn't feel like if you want, you got, yeah, you can, you have an infinite range of things you can do with your life. Maybe not an infinite, but a wide range. Maybe, maybe don't do that.

Yeah, yeah. So, so for example, like from the psionic, you know, portion of this. And I, I lead these experiences for people, I want to go interact, right? It's not, hey, follow this three steps. It's, it's highly heart-based. It's like, I actually need you to forget everything that you know and I need you to open your heart as you prepare to, you know, embark. on this journey to interact with something like NHI.

It's not, it's not mechanistic. It's, it doesn't fit the military, you know, box very well, right? So I, I totally agree with you.

And I think, again, it's just, um, there's, there's truth and there's data and there's things on both sides of the table. You know, like a very interesting, you know,

perspective without going in too much detail that I can share here is like, from the Skywatcher cohort, right? Like the psionic operations, right? Like when the psychics were going out, when we were setting up, up and running a session and actually trying to elicit UAP, right? We were not successful 100% of the time at eliciting a response, right? However, every time we did elicit a response, the phenomena was highly benign, right?

Like, it was very neutral. It wasn't angry. It was just kind of like floating through, checking out, maybe even exhibiting some like loving behavior, right, like actually investigating. On the, you know, mechanistic dog whistle side of the things, right? It's my understanding. like that was producing a result, you know, nearly 100% of the time. But it would often produce a result that was aggressive, right?

Like as you saw in like episode two, right? Like flying up to the trailer, like getting highly aggressive, probing our responses, right? So like that kind of like points to me that what we put out is also what we're going to get back. It's like a mirror. Yeah. That's so interesting. So highly supportive of again, like this is why the military should not be leading this conversation. James Fowler on my show is a.

really fascinating interview. He was talking about, you know, somebody was going to use directed energy or whatever. He said he made it clear that Skywalker itself didn't use directed energy, but somebody was going to, at one point against one of these, like, hostile, like the jellyfish UFOs, UAP, which seemed to be particularly aggressive. And it just shut down the directed energy before it even went out. Yeah. And so it's like...

I don't subscribe that the jellyfish are actually, like, hostile. I think that they're almost like an immune room. response. Like you see that class when you're actually putting out something that's probably not in the best interest of the field. It's just your own BS excavated in some sort of outer form. Interesting. Yeah. So again, with like reality, the phenomenon reflecting back to us, that's why it's the more that you try to take this lockdown materialistic, like militaristic approach, I think that's what you're going to get back. And because, and this is the really messed up part, and I don't even know how to talk about this, but they use electromagnetic pulse

weaponry against these things. And then, so they're covered with plasma and then they sort of become inert and then they come down. Is that right? Like, yeah, like, I'll be honest with you. The way that I understand is, again, not Skywatchers. Yeah. But the way that I understand legacy UAP crash retrieval operations to work, many different styles, right? One style is, let's say they're using psionics. You're going to take psionics, highly developed psychic aptitude, they're going to go set up in the desert, they're going to run their protocols and processes, which are probably highly formulated on love, right? And they're probably going to do that in an environment where there's directed

energy weapons all around. So you're almost creating this like honeypot of like, hey, we love you, come see us, we want to interact with you. And then let's say that thing interacts, all of a sudden they're hit with a direct energy weapon materialized and like, yeah, then it's recovered. So the real sad part of this where, like, Ross Colthard, I think, talked about this a little bit already, like area 52. Is that how everything happens? No, but I do have awareness that, yeah, like, many crash retrieval operations have, like, operated that way. And then in the book, Sentinels of Ether, you know, that Jake put out, it's like, so they recover material.

And then there's a mental interface as far as the reverse engineered craft as well, like getting that to fly, requires the psionic assets to lock in again on the ground and then it gets those to fly yeah it's the world gets very abstract and like very complex at that point are you are you high confidence in that part or just like the ability for the thing to show up or i'm high confidence in the fact that crash retrieval operations have shot many things with directed energy weapons Jesus Christ. And if your if your consciousness is locked in as the psionic asset to the craft, and that craft is getting shot, that must be traumatic feeling.

Yeah. Yeah. So I experienced this. I won't go into details like when where or anything like that. But at one point in my own personal history, right, I experienced this. I was interacting with the phenomena. My consciousness was co-creating, co-piloting and whatever kind of, you know, a manifestation of the phenomenon that was showing up, right? And halfway through the process

as I was like communicating with other people kind of demonstrating this, I felt something go wrong that I've never felt before. The way that I could kind of explain is it felt as if my body was actually turning to stone. Didn't feel like I was getting electrocuted. It felt as if the thing that I was connected to consciously as well as my body was immediately turning into stone. And there was like an emergency I felt to get my consciousness out of this thing and back to my body because it felt like if I stayed that the conduit, right, this like unseen consciousness connection was going to be like severed and there was almost a, you know, ability for me to get stuck in this thing, right, if I didn't return back to my body. And from what I understand, the area that I was running that

exercise in happened to have directed energy weapons, you know, naturally near it. So chance are something got brought in detected on radar and like naturally it's looked it as an adversarial threat. So yeah, I'm very grateful to be alive and unscathed from that experience. But like, yeah, there's high... Did you experience any sort of physiological damage from that? No, no, not going to... I mean, pain, you know, pain, but no, not that I'm aware of. Like, if you were to characterize that pain, was it like a soul pain or was it a physical pain? physical soul again imagine your body turn into stone is the best comparison I could give you yeah that is so gnarly yeah and again right I'm not

one thing we didn't even kind of get into here right is like you know people's perspective and underlying like background on the phenomena is like oh it's extraterrestrial it's like well like hold on a second go back to that initial analogy that I kind of provided where it's the story's been it's materialistic universe or physicists again I I think we live in a field, right? And I think that all these dimensions are stacked, you know, with us. And it's essentially like everything is right here right now. And it's actually a level of consciousness and awareness and what we perceive that gives us the experience.

So it's like very possible. Is this extraterrestrial? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe that's a portion of it. I subscribe more that it's like interdimensional, right? So perhaps there's an intelligence or an awareness that's actually. four, fifth, sixth, seventh dimension.

It's evolved away from the point of needing an ego ID. For those that aren't familiar with that, like look into neuroscience, that doesn't need an ego ID, doesn't need a body. Maybe it exists as this ethereal thought form, but it's actually an awareness and intelligence. And it can interact with the third dimension. And it interacts by materializing a portion of itself here, right? And maybe that's what we're seeing, you know, from the UAP side.

I don't think that's all of it, but I think that's a portion. So it's like there's extraterrestrial, there's interstellarital, this interdimensional. There's also, what if it's us? Like, I'm not completely sold on this either. And I'll point to a lot of experiments with plasma, right? Like, even that excellent event that I described, when we had 30 people highly heart-centric,

we had these incredible interactions with plasma worms, right? But I'm not completely convinced that, like, that could not be an extension of human consciousness materializing itself too, right? So it's like, it's not just one size fits all, It's not as simple as like, hey, there's aliens. I think we all want this to be simple. I think, again, the real work in understanding the phenomena is going to be in how we

understand consciousness and awareness and what forms consciousness and awareness can take on. It's likely not the thing that we are hearing in the narrative that we're superimposing. It's likely much weirder than that. And it could be a whole host of disparate threads. But on the plasma front, there's a great book called The New Science of Heaven by really just polymathic, brilliant guy named Robert Temple that I've been reading. And it's all about how atomic matter, physical matter, is actually the exception to the rule and that, you know, the universe itself is mostly plasma. And you have these Kortolofsky clouds. And you have,

you even have these experiments being done where it seems like these plasmoids are, like, cohering to heartbeats when a human walks up to them. And we have a mutual friend named Adam Curry who does a lot of, you know, experimentation in this area as well. it's it's really phenomenal like so who are we to say you know it's almost you have to think about this thought experiment how many of the millions of species on earth think that they are at the top of the food chain probably a decent amount unless you're constantly seeing you know your apex level predator that's like freaking you out yeah you know a lot of them probably do in me in some cases they might think oh they might kill us kill me or whatever but they're dumb you know what i mean so like how many

And so who are we to say that we're at the top? And then there's always an epistemic cap that you have. There's an oomveldt that you're a perceptive lens that you're seeing the world through. And that's always going to be capped. So like, and then I just interviewed an MIT neuroscientist or MIT trained neuroscientists at UC Irvine. His name is Don Hoffman. And his whole thing is consciousness is actually more like disembodiment is more adaptive for consciousness. Yeah. So anyways.

I completely agree with you I completely agree with you Yeah like the next generation of this like Where do we go post disclosure Right? Well it's like well yeah on one hand You know the narrative up to this point has kind of been like Bad government doing bad things like of course right Like yeah there needs to be you know some level of justice and research

But you know like I don't think the next phase is like Hey we're going to be looking really far out to other planets And we're going to repeat what SETI is done for like a thousand years I think the real answer is like inside us I think the answer is intrinsic. I think that the more that we actually understand how our own intelligence operates, the more will actually understand

these disparate threads. It just haven't been connected yet. I also think, like, the more we look to past, right, to the past, the better off we're going to be, too, because you can look at, like, ancient rites of passages. You can look at hermetic wisdom. You can look at all of these, like, just ancient things we love to kind of, like,

keep to the side. But if you're willing to, like, open the thread, you realize that it's like the path to ascension, different consciousness, different awarenesses, different intelligences. All of this has been documented for thousands and thousands of years. You said something to me off air that blew my mind because I always, you know, obviously I systematically look at UFO stuff. And I'm always trying to figure out, are these physical objects, are they, you know, mental? You know, I'm pretty convinced that, like, the thread that you're on is correct, that, like, there's some sort of mental thing. You call them into your field. You said something so interesting to me, which is that the, like, directed energy that hits them creates a local electric field that almost calls the UFOs into physical form. Is that roughly right? or yeah I don't again this is not my domain right this is just like my extrapolated understanding of like trying to view the perspective of what has happened right and like some of these scenarios that we talked about yesterday and it's that like perhaps think of a uap or a UFO as more of like a manifestation right it's like imprinted in this reality and we took that model that we talked about yesterday of like perhaps an interdimensional right intelligence or aspect of awareness maybe in that seventh dimension right

It's like, oh, okay, I'm going to come, you know, interact in the third dimension in this moment of time. And I'm going to, you know, perhaps project and manifest my awareness here. That awareness takes on a certain form that awareness could take on a plasma worm that could take on a craft, could take on it, whatever, right? And from that projection, something like directed energy may actually, like, force that to materialize and almost become like a dense portion of this, you know, dimension that we're in. right um it's not that like hey that allows it to take form what i'm really saying is like what may have been happening in some of these scenarios is like this is a transdimensional object that doesn't necessarily belong here but by hitting it with like something like directed energy you're forcing it to take form and become bound to this dimension have you heard of eric wargo he wrote a book called

time loops no he's amazing he talks about like the soul self as being like uh he calls it the long body. And it's like there's some sort of quantum self that's like maybe like a tesseract or something. And that is ported into the human body. And there is this burgeoning field of quantum biology. You know, even going back to 1944, I believe, Schrodinger himself, who's like the father of, you know, quantum wave function, a lot of quantum mechanics. He had a lecture series called What is Life. And he talked about these aperiodic, you know, receiver crystals in the DNA. And so you have to wonder, like, are we tethered to something higher? And Wargo presents this really interesting model where, you know, in quantum computations, you can reverse cubit positions. And so basically there, even people who are serious, you know, working in, you know, on quantum

computers or probably more in the quantum mechanics interpretation world, think that maybe on the application layer of a working quantum computer, which we don't have because, you know, chips and keeping them cryonically cooled or whatever, cryogenically cooled is the bottleneck. When we get that, maybe you could send information of a future knowledge or memory state back in time. And so then if you get into, you know, again, I don't know if this is, you know, fully verified, but like the Roger Penrose, Hammerov, you know, tubulin of the microtubules or whatever, or something like it in the brain, where you have some sort of quantum.

room temperature quantum system, then your future knowledge state could send stuff back in time. And if you think about pre-sentiment, like what do we have these pre-cocious pre-memories of, you know, the things that we have intuitions that are going to happen. And it's like you wake up, you have a dream about the thing. It's often the most important thing

and the most important as far as, you know, it being adaptive for your survival and your evolution. So like, you know, losing a loved one or like, you know, something dangerous that could happen to you or whatever, you know, these are the things that get downloaded. And, you know, I think we're going to end up with this consciousness model where you're like a measurement system and it's like you're like the stylus on like an LP player and you're picking the tracks or something. I, you know, at a just very loose level, right? Like, I subscribe to this conceptually, right? And this kind of like mirrors back the idea of time. It's almost as if like every aspect of experience already exists in some form, right? Like if you went right or left, if you decided to do the show or didn't do the show, right? It's in that core present moment that like you as the awareness get to decide, right? So it's kind of like reality is almost just like you get to chart your own path. Perhaps there are these like predetermined like you have. You have. You have. You have. You have. You to get here, you have to make X, Y, Z decision. Everything's accessible to you, but like, you only have these choices with you in the present moment, but they've actually already all happened, or they already could happen. And you, as the core part of awareness, get to experience it

now through your decision making, right? And the idea, like, hey, maybe, you know, in the future, right, of, like, what we perceive is linear time, right? Like, you ended up in a position where it's like, this isn't the right way. You know, perhaps there is just this kind of quantum feedback loop where maybe in the present moment now before we make that decision, you start getting synchronicities, right, that like force you to take a different decision, right? So like maybe all of this is a giant feedback loop. Not to move from such a transcendent message to a more banal subject, but I think a lot of people are left in suspense around, you know, this experience that you had. So we're kind of weaving in and out, but I love it. But you're, so you had this two-year

experience at this center and it's you know this victory baker center and what happens so so are there any experiments that we're missing first off yeah yeah there's there's many there's many and what i'll add to people here right is like you know from a psychological basis is like i have a high level of dissociation over that experience and it's taking me years right to be able to have the recall and the integration that i do have uh outside of the dissociation there were all all sorts of substances that I was, I was essentially an experiment, right? Stuff that I don't even know, you know, stuff I still wonder, like, hey, I had cancer at a young age. Like, I wonder if there's a connection there, right? I wonder, man. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's just kind of shitty to think about,

for lack of a better word. But anyways, yeah, two years I was there. The real pinnacle of this was, again, it was development. So I was in a track. And the next iteration that was told to me when I was there in the school was that I was going to leave this little facility that I was spent the two years in, and I was going to be enrolled in a boarding school. So I was going to leave my parents, after all, I was going to go to a facility in Eastern New York, and I was going to live there full time. And I was going to get to do this stuff all the time. And I'm pretty sure that would have been the point that I just disappear from human society and probably get thrown in the underground bunker, right? By the grace of God, at the same time, getting into 2010, and,

this is, you know, just for some great people, right? Like, this is some great investigation work. Ross Colthard has done a lot on this, you know, to piece this back together. But in 2010, my home school district, right, that little hometown of Springville, by grace of my mother, by grace of myself, finally, like, petition the state of New York to come and look in at this facility. And apparently for five months, the record, something goes, Baker Victory Services was refusing access to the state to come in and inspect me, right? Which you would do if you're a intelligence agency

or a defense contractor, like you have control over everything. Well, that got to the point where they were going to run a state audit, like on the whole thing. And they didn't want that to happen. So I was hastily returned in like September of 2010 back to my homeschool district, kicked out of the program. And like I said, I was on like 12 antipsychotics. There was a cover basically point up to this time that I was severely mentally unwell, and that's what was justified my placement there for two years. So, like, within 30 days, all this craziness stops. I get thrown back into my homeschool district, and I just do everything in my power to forget this ever happened because I went up against what it felt like was the beast.

Like, these people masqueraded as school. They masqueraded as my friends. Who do I trust? I'm just never going to talk about this and I hope to God I live a normal life. And that worked. within one year, all of my medications were released. I was released from every single psychological diagnoses. So it was just magically cleared in one year, right?

And it just all disappeared. Ooh. Yeah. Major, major fall through the clax, you know, the level of Roblocks. But also, again, this is like high level exploitation from the best of the best of, you know, like an intelligence agency. Right. Like, this is how they would masquerade the system. And is it like 400 plus lawsuits were, you know, thrown against Victory Baker services? Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they, it's no longer in operation. It has been sued so many times, not by myself, but just by other people reporting sexual abuse claims that they had to close the facility.

Do you have any sense of the contractors or the agencies that were working there? I don't want to go into too many details about that. But I will gladly point the audience to where I think, like, if you want to look at legacy program stuff, I'd look at MITR. MITR Corporation. Yeah. They're federally funded research and development center. And it's interesting. Eric Berluson, you know, congressman from Missouri, who's really been a champion of UFO, UAP disclosure.

He is now basically demanding that MITER open up all their records regarding involvement with this sort of subject. And so that'll be, that'll be very interesting. I think he sent them something saying you have 45 days or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Again, what's interesting is, like, my whole track that I experience as an individual is, like, I love the fact that there's Burleson doing this. I love the fact that there's still so many good people, like, trying to fight the good fight using the mechanisms of government that we have today.

My experience was, like, they all failed. They failed me as a kid. They still failed me now, as we've tried to look, right? So I'm far more interested in like at the same level people are looking backwards and, you know, trying to get justice and get right. We also need a cohort of people who are looking forward that are saying like, I'm not worried about what bad mitre did. I'm worried about what was mitre doing. What do they know and how can we bring that out in the public light, right? Yeah, totally.

Like where is that, you know, transcendence going to happen? And I hope that, you know, just from like what I'm creating, what others are creating in the space that like a whole new renaissance. can emerge right now. Miter's weird. I mean, they used to hold like gravity conferences and, you know, Ning Lee was last,

you know, speaking at a Meyer conference before she kind of went into the black and she was doing anti-gravity experiments. And so it's, yeah, the first order thing is right, like, wait, you know, this is totally messed up. Like you guys have committed crimes. The second order thing is like,

you're concealing stuff that could just change humanity and make like the world like way, way better. So like, let that out. You know, at the very least, let that out, you know. Well, here's the thing. I don't know if they will, right? Like, let's look at the track record at this point. It's just going to be another 20 years of just, like, fighting with the mechanisms.

And again, back to the earlier point is, like, we don't need it. We don't need government. We don't need the people who've done this wrongly. We need the next cohort of individuals and organizations and industry that are willing to say, like, there is a whole new unlock in the way that we understand ourselves in the universe at our fingertips. Yeah. willing to look. Yeah.

And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's almost, um, the tech you're describing isn't insane. You know, EEGs and brain mapping. Yeah. And, you know, and then getting into a subconscious state, it's like, the stuff was written about like years that, you know, it's Silva mind control, you know, all these sorts of things. You know, uh, so it's, that's not the super complicated, but it's actually just being open to the fact that your consciousness has an impact on the material world. So that's, that's, that's actually.

the limiting factor. It's so interesting to hear your story because it dovetails with so many other stories that I've encountered. Like, you know, Dan Sherman is this guy who went on my show who wrote a book called Above Black. And he was, you know, Air Force Electronics Intelligence. He went to, I believe it was supposed to be, it was in Maryland and maybe it was Fort Mead where he was going to do some, you know, continuing education.

And then he got taken to this NSA complex. and he was given these headphones, told to take these pills, and then was told to lock onto a sine wave and flatten the sine wave? I could definitely affect the motion, and I could do it just at will. Have you experienced anything like that?

I know exactly what he's talking about. Okay. Yeah. We had different terms, like square the circle, like things like that, but probably, who knows if he was actually looking at a real sign wave or was he looking at something that just like visually looked, you know, behaved as a sign wave?

It could have. It could have visually just looked like a sign wave. And then I don't know if the binaural beats actually matched that. But he said that that got him into a state where he could communicate with extraterrestrials. And the way he was briefed, it was called Project Preserve Destiny. They said that his mother, while she was pregnant, was abducted by aliens and genetically altered. he was genetically altered as a fetus in her womb to have more of a psychic predisposition potential

for communicating with these, you know, extraterrestrial or non-human intelligence. There's something there, you know, and like props to him for sharing what is like a very vulnerable aspect of that because like that just sounds bonkers to a lot of people. But there is certainly some genetic aspects to psychic potentials, you know, like rare blood types,

you know, like I'm a racist negative. I know we talked about that. R-H-negative. Yeah, whether there's a correlation or not as highly, highly, you know, disputed. But like... A lot of people with that blood types, they say, you know,

the veil's a little thinner for me. A little more clairvoyant, you know? Yeah, maybe one of many. If anything, I don't think it's probably that easy. You know, maybe there are some genetic carriers that, like, deep down, I think there's certainly a there, but in reality, I think we all possess

an underlying amount of disability. you know, to perceive extra sensory information. I think maybe some individuals just perhaps have like a higher ceiling. Yeah. Well, a very high up person in government who I won't out because I don't think he wants to be outed, but basically corroborated Sherman's story. And so, you know, unfortunately, I hate saying anonymous source, but, you know, take that with a grain of salt if you want.

And he has this DD-214. And he even in his book, he didn't mention one of the first. of the bases and then we figured out one of the bases it was in southern italy and because he took a photo of it and his book and you didn't have the internet back then so you couldn't reverse image search and i called him out on it it was san vito de normany or something and he was like yep that was the base and then the the other base was off it um you know i think in nebraska and so his story kind of checks and then i another uh you know electronics intelligence guy named dan hog um you know who uh i We've worked for the director of national intelligence and, you know,

as long history in government, it's basically like all of the electronics intelligence stuff, he's saying seems totally legit. And he's just a super normal, cool guy. So it's so wild to me, you know. And this is what, it cuts to the core of the matter because all this stuff is hidden in plain sight. That's the big key, right?

And that's what I tell, you know, everyone in my story, right? It's plausible. The liability is key. It is not grandiose. It's like if you want to hide something, you blend it in. For somebody, their day job was going to the Victory Baker Services Center. And you say this, you know, in a great blog post you wrote, they would go to the Starbucks around the corner or whatever and talk casually about their job.

Yeah. Which is recruiting for this UFO covert program. It's not like some crazy dark. I think like all the conspiratorial, you know, just imaginations, you know, out there have kind of created the stigma of its like, highly secret. It's like actually, it's highly secret, certainly, but it's hidden in plain sight. It's not compartmented like you'd think. It's going to operate through channels that, you know, carry and allow plausible in liability, right? Are you going to question if the Air Force is setting up a road perimeter or would you question if the local police department are there less, right? Like,

you're going to flow through the channels that you can. You're not going to make yourself a target. 100%. Ross Colthardt is a really hard-nosed. good journalist who really vets, you know, his sources. And, you know, I'm sure he went very deep with you. You also mentioned Odyssey Systems. Is that something that he uncovered or you uncovered in this? Yeah, there's certainly some connections there, you know, whether the exact contract or personnel or not were Odyssey Systems is like highly debated. I think some of the underlying, like, tech platforms that were being used just in terms of like data management. We're Odyssey systems, but I believe that there's quite a bit that points to mitre, my understanding.

It's so fascinating. Yeah, have you heard of Andre Pujarich by any chance? Paharic, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And highly synonymous, you know, I kind of look at Poharic is like he likely championed the earlier iteration of research that I later experienced in the program. A lot of the same similarities, you know, his. ideal space kids, right? In upstate New York. Upstate New York. Nonetheless, yeah, there's quite a few similarities there. Upstate New York, you had them channeling things in Faraday cages and non-human intelligence

and they were often very high sigh power, very clairvoyant, just really fascinating. And you have to wonder, I think the gate program was started by Sydney Marland in 1972. And this was before the church committee. And so this is before a lot of the malfeasance around MK Ultra CIA mind control, that sort of stuff, was kind of excavated by Frank Church and, you know, Congress and the civilian world. And I wonder if it was formed somewhat with the intent of funneling in, you know, kids who have psionic predisposition potential or whatever to these programs. Yeah, you know, the way that I typically say this to people is like, Gade itself is benign, right, by all regards, at least in my consideration. it's that there has been a different entity that is utilizing GATE behind the scenes to find a pre-selected pool of people and pull them into the programs. Because GATE itself does great things, right?

Like it pushes people to STEM. There's a lot of benefits that are not, you know, crazy conspiratorial UAP thing. It's more that there is an element that is looking at the pool of gate people and plucking from them, right? So like Gade is kind of used as this just general identifier and funnel. It itself is not bad, but there's someone else in there. Yeah. And pulling from it. What's your theory on?

Do you have like a consciousness theory, which I mean, it's like the hardest thing to sort of make falsifiable, right? It's hard to understand the causal mechanism of the random event generators. Yeah. What's causing wave function collapse or, you know, even wave function collapse might be a poor way of putting it, you know. But even, you know, a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics or even the Copenhagen interpretation, it's like you, you know, we observe the wave function and it collapses. What does that mean? And how do we know that it's just particles kind of independent of us or waves rather, you know,

turning into discrete particles, you know, independent of the observer? There's literally, it's unfalsifiable. There's no way to argue that the superposition doesn't exist in the quantum detector. And it's not the quantum detector, you know, causing the collapse. Like the observer could be called. And all these people. How far do you want to go back on like the observational metrics? Yeah.

It's like how you keep, well, that's the problem. That's the or deal with the awareness, right? Like, you almost can't, right? That's where you can kind of get back to the point of like, you can't take out observation. You can't take out awareness. It's complete. You can't remove it. Even in sort of the delayed choice experiment or even in like, you know, just basic quantum mechanics,

you choose to make the measurement and then you're collapsing the wave function. So like, what's like totally back up for a moment? And I'll use a little bit of this example. Like the story as we know it, right? here we are as humans having this conversation. You know, most of us have been told something, you know, along these lines that we live in a materialistic universe, right? That earth is essentially a rock.

It is orbiting the sun, right? We live in this material rocky solar system. We live on it. We're humans. We're kind of this happy accident. Our brains just happen to be producing this thing of consciousness locally and you live and die, you know? It's pretty sad when you really think about that.

You know, my experience was being taught, trained, and having experiences that validate this, that we don't necessarily live in a materialistic world. We live in something a lot more akin to a field, right, that is taking on a materialistic form as we interact with it. But the underlying substrate is not fixed. It's not rock. It's actually something far more reflexive than that. And consciousness and awareness is the in-between that can see both worlds, that can interact with both worlds, and actually, because there affects on both worlds. So you begin to see the world not necessarily some fixed, static, materialistic universe that we live in. You see it as something that's dynamic, reflexive, and the underlying substrate is not materialistic.

It's how we perceive it at our level of consciousness. How do synchronicities work? I don't know. You know, gosh, yeah, let's talk about time, huh? Yeah. Interestingly, I think, you know, for people aren't familiar, like, synchronicity, right? Like, number one, I think they're highly personal. I think they're highly, highly, highly personal.

And I think, you know, if you subscribe to a version of the universe where, you know, whether through dimensions or something else, like maybe there's a concept of your higher self, right? like there's a consciousness, you know, up and beyond this body that maybe is like steering you, right? Or like, hey, you have two options right or left. But if we give you the synchronicity, a little sense of deja vu, like maybe you get highly reflective in that moment and almost change the outcome. Right. So I think of like synchronicity is almost like this communication between a higher version of yourself or a version of yourself perhaps in a different timeline that's allowing you to critique your experience here. It's a little wink or a nudge, you know, in the right direction or something.

something. It also feels like it's a, you know, kind of exemplifying maybe a reduction in entropy. So if you think of time, it's hard to define time without, you know, defining it with respect to oscillations of an electromagnetic wave or the movement of macroscopic bodies. And time really doesn't exist without separation. Like if, you know, pre-Big Bing, you can think of like the world, the world at rest is entirely timeless. And so time has to be between two objects and it has to involve movement. There's nothing fundamental about it. And so because it's the most used noun and because it's undefinable without respect to those things,

it feels like this soup that we're swimming in. That's like impossible to get outside of. And so the synchronicity thing is like, I don't know. I don't know how you, yeah, I'm sort of going full schizo here. No, I love it. This is the fun part. I'm with you. I think just to untangle the two, like, yes, synchronicities, you know, the causal mechanism,

I'm not sure. How I look at them as my own life, you know, as I look at them as like little beacons of like guiding. You know, maybe it's like either a, whoa, the clock's three, three, like, let me just think for a moment. What am I doing in this moment? What am I thinking? Should I think more critically here, right? Or, you know, maybe their encouragement that you're on the right path, right? It's kind of like what you make of them.

but for me it's like I look at it as like highly personal right more of like a guiding factor but like getting back into like time right and like kind of like untangling the two is like I think largely our current understanding of space time is going to change the more that we really look into awareness and consciousness I'm not convinced that it's like the static measure you know of the universe or a law of nature as we know it you know I think it's far more reflexive I think you know depending on localized environments it's highly changing I think the awareness or the observer perhaps may actually have an influence on time or maybe the flow of time too.

I think so too. And before mechanical clocks, time was only embodied. And it was talked about in malleable ways. And so time freezing wasn't like, oh, it's a felt sense of time freezing. It was actually maybe freezing, you know, especially if, yeah, go for it. I was just going to say, like, this gets more interesting, too, as you think about the technological age that we're in. the more that we measure and observe, right,

the more I wonder if we're actually constraining ourselves a little bit, right? Because if it was back in the 1600s, things were very magical. We're figuring out now consciousness and awareness has the ability to influence things. You can direct your experience from it. So, like, hey, if you ran off into the woods and you're like, I want to go find someplace magical, maybe that manifests and materializes because there's no one else watching. You're in a quantumly unentangled state and you, like, actually travel

there, right? But now that we're in this localized environment where we're watching and measuring and limiting everything, perhaps that's actually having in a constrictive aspect on reality, where it's like, oh, you can't just, your range of options are limiting because now there has to be this connection point that makes sense between this observer, that observer, and that observer. It's no longer just you and the universe that's embodied. It's all of these other mechanisms in between. You have all these things being snapped to grid instead of, like, like staying in this possibility space. Yeah,

this kind of super positionality. Yeah. It's so fascinating. You know, well, Rudolph Steiner is this great Austrian philosopher who, you know, I'm a big fan of. And he wrote a book called Gertes' Theory of Knowledge. Gerta, you know, obviously the German, you know, poet polymaths from 18th century,

you know, 100 years before Steiner was writing. And Gertrta went to Strasbourg Cathedral. And Strasbourg was this sort of, you know, Gothic. cathedral that was seen as way too ornate and chaotic in, you know, for that time, which was, you know, more about kind of, you know, a sparse functionality and was, you know, heavily criticized. And he experienced this merging with the cathedral. And it was this sort of very important thing in his life. And he then predicted that the next epistemological paradigm shift would be cognition by identification. So instead of cognition through this observer, observ separation, this duality, it would be like you would embody the thing that you're trying to understand. You wouldn't study it from a distance from afar. And that seems awfully like a lot of these, you know, techniques you were, you know, being told to do in this covert Baker Victory Services program. Right. Yeah, you become it, right? You embody it. You embody it. You become it.

Or like even in the extreme cases that I was doing, right? It's like there's an aspect of disembate embodiment and then re-embodiment, right? And so, yeah, it's other thing. But I think, like, in Rudolph, uh, in Rudolph's kind of thinking here, too, it's not necessarily like, like, that's a very almost materialistic aspect of what, you know, I was doing. It's like, I'm leaving my body and getting into another object to take it on. I think like that can just be applied at so many levels of life.

Like it can also be applied to like your own cognition of yourself, right? Like I, what comes up for me is, uh, you know, I kind of think back to this too. It's just like, become who you want to become. Fake it to you make. it works for a reason, right? Because you're embodying something that's already there. And then your reality is kind of conforming around you for that. So there's a lot more wisdom in there that meets the surface. For sure. And then you just have to do it. Fake it till you make it works if the faking it exists on a real subconscious level. Like you have like subintensions. So there's something to

the secret and to all these sort of manifesting practices. And then it feels like some people are like running on ice. They're running in place or whatever. And they clearly have all sorts of sub-intentions that are very self-sabotagey, and they don't quite actually translate and work. And so you have to get deeper into that, the substrate. And, you know, that seems really hard. Maybe you can do it with some brain mapping biofeedback techniques, but I don't know if we have a pure science of that, you know, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, I don't think that, like, you know, even again, with like next level consciousness, next level side, like, I personally, like, even on this journey, you're like, I've gotten MRIs, you know,

And a few things stand out. I think, like, you know, Gary Nolan's done some really great research. Like, I have a very unique codate and putamine. There's a lot of white matter going on there. Yep. Yep. There's certainly a correlation. But I...

So, real quick, I want it. Because the audience... So Gary Nolan's Stanford professor, tenured microbiologist, he's doing all this studies that on the codate nucleus and potamon, which is this part of the basal ganglia. And if that's very neuronally dense, the person seems to have high... SIE powers, high sort of mind over matter ability, and then also seems to encounter more sort of UAP, UFO stuff. And so you got an MRI and you have...

Yeah, I have a very high level striation, right? So essentially there's some MRI, like in the Kadi and the Poudaman, there's a high level of these white matter stripes, right? However, I don't think that's it. Like, I think what we're going to find is the more that we look for physiological markers, you know, like, like the answer for consciousness, This is not looking at the materialistic aspect. Don't look at the physiological symptoms.

I don't think that's what we're going to find it. I think we're going to find a lot more about actually going in the intrinsic, whether that be the metaphysical, the woo-woo spiritual, the quantum observational, right? Like, however whatever glasses you want to put in or put on to where to better understand this, use them, they're all the same thing. Also, if this is some sort of simulation or computation or something, if you find that, infinite money-making machine, you know, you figure out some sort of causal physical mechanism for psychic powers or whatever. Do you think that if there's any sort of intentionality behind the game that you're being, that you're playing, do you not think that the person or the

entity or God or whatever would change the source code on you? Like, like, you're not going to figure out the one thing that allows you to hack the entire game. This is the, this is like the right hand path versus the left-hand path, right? Or like, there's always been, you can think of like, the crazy scientist who's like, I want to take SIE and I'm going to figure out the mechanisms and predict the world, right? And it's all going to be for me. Well, it's like that always ends a disaster. Yes. That's ended in disaster for every, you know, imperialist emperor, except. Like, it doesn't just have to just have to be science, right? Like, that's the left hand path. The right hand path of like, wow, there's something here. If we actually work on the understanding,

the embodiment and, you know, the progression of it, maybe from a collective measure, outside of this elf, then it seems to scale with you, right? And you get like compounding effects. And I think like up into this point, like this has been the story of disclosure. There's been a highly finite amount of people in the left hand path that no information that you haven't been allowed to know, right? Now for the first time in history, the right hand path is opening up. So the more that we collectively actually work together, I think the more that we get,

you know, both individually and collectively. Agreed. Yeah, whether it's Lord of the Rings or Prometheus or Faust or all of these legends end the same way and it's not good. If you try to use the sacred thing, I think there's even a line in the Old Testament about this where if you try to like turn any of the sacred stuff into a business like it always backfires. Always backfire. And so just don't try to like, you know, beat the thing into submission. Go into it non-coercively, not for any sort of instrumental use and just. if you're curious and you want, you know, your own growth and ascension, great. But otherwise, you know, there's a delicate dancer. It's like threading the needle, right?

Because we live in this capitalistic society and like, well, you have to make money, right? And I think there's a lot of people. You can just like it, you know, people who are very advanced spiritually. They like want to share gifts to humanity. Like always the roadblock is like, well, how do you make money and support yourself with it too, right? So it's like there's a very fine line. I don't know if it's like the answer is just don't make money, but I think it's like have the right intentionality

between how you're making your money. What do you think when you're communing with these orbs and UFOs that sort of show up? What do you think they are? You went through some of the thinking and theories, you know, earlier, but like I guess maybe because, you know, we're grasping at straws on theories. What does it feel like?

Mm-hmm. Every time it's a little bit, different, right? Every time it's a little bit different. And we cover the theories, right? Like, one could be extraterrestrial, two, I subscribe to more dimensional, interdimensional. You know, three could be us, right? Like a mirror back, right? Could be all these things at once. But in terms of like, what does it feel like, right? For me, it's highly, I almost feel it hemispherically, right? So like, let's say there's an orb or I'll kind of recreate the Yasselin experience for you, for those that have kind of heard that, right?

So what that looked like is I took a group of about 30 people. We had a highly dedicated track list that I produced, like specific binaural beats, specific frequencies. We're outside in a beautiful setting. And I'm giving people instructions on just how to ground themselves, like basic meditative tools. I give them a visualization exercise. So they're visualizing when we actually begin this experience.

And then everyone starts the same tracklist at the same time. So we're all synchronized. So imagine a 30-minute playlist. you're all listening at the same time. And when you're all synchronized like that, you almost create this like group coherence, right? Super interesting things happen with RNGs in this environment too, which I just will say as like an environmental sensor

of what's happening environmentally, something's happening, right? RNGs will shift sigmas. There's other environmental sigmas. So again, like there's a whole chapter of research of like consciousness in relation to the environment, not just NHI that has not been looked at yet. NIH is almost the byproduct of what happens in like a field environment like this, right? That feels right.

When you talk to the remote viewers who are systematically trained at like getting into these heightened states, it almost feels like UFOs and aliens and all these things. They're like an incidental byproduct of everything else. And they're so casual to like their environment. They're like, oh, we looked into this ET base or whatever. And it's like so not a thing for that. because they have like an expanded scope of reality. But anyway, so keep going. No, you're totally right.

You're totally right. Yeah, that's, again, where I really hope. It's not just we need finite lab conditions. This is like, what happens when you start bringing everyone together, right? And a shared meditation, a shared synchronized setting. What environmental signals can you look at? What's changing, right? And now change the conditions, like task the people in the group differently.

What changes in the environmental conditions? Like, there's so much yet to be discovered right in front of us that we haven't looked into yet. But to answer your question specifically, right? Like we're doing a shared visualization. Everyone's listening to the same track list, the same time. It's highly synchronized. I have an ability to get out of my body, right, and kind of visualize my surroundings out of body.

And when something like an orb, right, or a manifestational phenomenon showing up, for me, somatically, I actually feel this like spinning or correlation between my hemispheres. It's like as if you took my right and left hemisphere, my brain and my skull, and it's like they began oscillating at different speeds and different tempos. And it's almost like the higher they speed up or the higher the vibration, the closer the phenomena or the manifestation is that I'm actually interacting with. And then sometimes it's telepathy through voice.

Sometimes it's telepathy through words. What is actually the better question to ask here? It's not how I experience it. it's that every single human, every person, every psychic, right, experiences it differently, and it depends more so on their cognition platform, right? So if you're, again, if you're a kinesthetic person, how you experience the phenomenon is going to be kinesthetic. If you're looking at information very auditory, like you hear things, you're going to

experience auditory telepathy, right? If you're visual like me, you might experience things very visual. You see it in your mind's eye. You're interacting with the orb and it's distantly away, right? All of them can be true. It depends more on us as the receiver and how we process the info. It's interesting that you experience the synchronization of hemispheres. I believe in 85 or 86, there's a CIA document that's now been, you know, the Freedom of Information Act has been used against it.

And it's all about this hemisink technique that Robert Monroe in Virginia, this consciousness researcher, kind of pioneered. Now you have the Monroe Institute there. And it's all about using these binaural beats that are slightly off. So the brain entrains them to synchronize and then through the entrainment, you get this synchronization of the whole brain. And then you experience all sorts of, you know, amazing stuff in a kind of expanded reality. So it's just so fascinating. It's so interesting. And another thing I thought, have you ever, you know Arthur C. Clark, of course, the sci-fi novel.

Oh, yeah. I know what. Sorry, the sci-fi writer. He wrote a, have you heard of Childhood's End? Have you ever read that book? No. It's all about these alien beings that kind of are overseeing Earth. And they both infiltrate the government in these covert ways.

And then they also speak only to these autistic, nonverbal children. And that's how they communicate. And I think of your experience in the center you were at. And think of the telepathy tapes, which, you know, is now super in vogue. and popular is an amazing podcast by Kai Dickens about all these nonverbal autistic children and the paradigms that they live in which are really heart-centered and involve love and also a lot of these other beings and knowledge that seems like hermetic and like you know through channels that you would never have been able to have you know to get through inductive

logic like they come out like they know certain Egyptian hieroglyphics and stuff like it does feel like that's and then all this whole modern disclosure movement which is sort of you know a little ridiculous but it's happening and it feels like that book is happening yeah totally i have two like oh gosh there's so many ways i want to take this um you know actually i'll i'll build on a little bit of this without like saying too much but this is like a very personal experience for me um there was an individual one of the guests on the telepathy tapes episode i don't get into names, but I actually interacted with, right? Like, I had a Zoom phone call with them. Really quick, right? Light years away, but had just a great call, got introduced.

And then I went to sleep that evening. And then that evening, I had the most extreme astral experience being taken out of my body to like a vibrational state that I've never experienced before, like super, super high, felt it just in my entire being. And, And I was like very clearly on what I would best describe as like the hill. And when I was there, it felt like I was in an auditorium where there was all of these other people with me. And interestingly enough, I had this image kind of like that came into my head. And it was from the person that I interacted with on the tapes.

And they were showing me an image of a kid named Ken that was in the program that I was in at Baker Victory, who was a nonverbal autistic. And they were communicating to me that like, hey, because you know Ken and you interacted with Ken, we can find you through them, right? Like, we're all connected in this certain way. And like that completely changed. And like since then, I've still had repeating experiences of like being brought to this very high frequency spot. So there's a lot there, right, with the nonverbal side of, you know, the autistic world. That's fascinating.

It's almost like you can link up with another node or something. something. And then you mentioned that at Baker Victory Services, a lot of their work was having you quantum unentangle with things that you were entangled with. So because you're so high empathy and you have kind of a porous outer shell at the time, you would just glom on to things and then you'd have to like sort of reel your your full self back in or it's almost as if like, so for thinking from like a quantum perspective as you're thinking about remote viewing like other viewers have talked about this right like your own bias your own life experience your own perception is actually going to create how you view things right so again for people that are like looking we'll back up

up real quick because this is like an important thing to say so as we've we're here at the critical component of like disclosure right there's something more than us there's a different intelligence out there, all of this. I think, like, if I was at other intelligence, I would probably be, like, looking at humanity laughing. Like, you guys need to get out of your own way. And before we should focus on, like, communing with NHI and communing, you know, with what very well may be angels, like, whatever you want to call them, we should probably understand ourselves first. And we should probably understand our own reality first. And then if we do that, maybe, you know, we'll aspire to this, right because it's like again just like we talked about it's psychedelics like don't bypass right yeah like

we can't bypass with the lesson here i think is more of like this mirror that's being presented to humanity of like you're on this very weird path there's a lot of trepidation of head of you you haven't like understood your own relationship with reality so there's like one wish for humanity that i have it's like take this as a catalyzing moment you're not alone in the universe great but the real lesson isn't just You're not alone in the universe. What do you make of that? The real lesson is there's far more to reality than you've been told. And you have the right to explore that. And what would you say to the many people who your story probably resonates very deeply with? And I'll take it even a step further. Your story could represent. You know, there are people who've been abducted by, you know, what they think are, you know, non-human intelligence or ETs. You know, often they're gray aliens. And they'll see the cover of communion. Whitley Strieber. book and I've had some of these people on my show where they'll be at a bookstore and they'll see it and it'll bring back these memories for them. And for you, it was, you know, the stress of a startup, you know, a relationship going south that brought up your own memories. I'm sure this show

might bring up some memories for people. How would you advise them? Yeah. Well, like right now, the perfect container isn't built, right? But this is a personal venture for me where I'm trying to build that container that's like safe, supported, um, and has the capital and the resources to actually give people, you know, some direction, right? So like in my case specifically, you know, all of this was hidden, you know, primarily under dissociation, right? And if we look at psychology today, like dissociation is like the least studied of like trauma responses. Um, and even if we want to take this a step further, right? Like, it's not just helping gate kids. It's actually like we are reevaluating what psychology is.

If we go back to like, there was Carl Young, right, and he had this kind of spirituality or like esoteric perspective merged with psychology and we kind of took like a left hand turn and ended up with what we know us now as like the DSM. You know, I think largely it's not just helping gate kids, but I think through the art of helping gate kids and better like understanding dissociation, you know, we might be able to build a brand new book of psychology.

Like we're talking about the non-locality of consciousness, right? Like how many psychologists are trained? on that. Totally. You know, if there is this more embedded deep link between mind matter, I mean, even that phrase mind matter embeds kind of a duality that probably doesn't exist, right? It changes psychology wholesale, you know, like, and it's kind of more empowering than some of these, like, oh, we're just going to use, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy or internal family systems or Jungian symbology or whatever.

Like, no, you can, if you can somehow, you know, change the way your subconscious frames things, you can really affect the person's reality and, you know, obviously in negative ways as you've experienced or extremely positive ways. Totally, yeah. You know, I personally think, like, the greatest gift to humanity, you know, that, like, I could be a part of, right, is actually helping in the psychology process. Because, you know, if we look today with all these outdated treatments and people treating symptoms, right, and never necessarily getting over depression, you know, never fully understanding

how trauma has affected them, you know, in their upbringing. I think that there could just be such a gift there, too. So this is something that we're champion with at the telepathy center. You know, so if you're like a clinician, right, if you're someone that's on this frontier side of psychology, you're willing to think outside of the box, like, contact us, contact me. If you're someone with clean conscious capital, right, like looking to support those that maybe have been, you know, targeted this population of gay survivors, please contact us, right? Again, like the container for this doesn't exist today, but it's something that I'm hoping to build. It's a beautiful message, man, and I'm really excited to see what you do on a go-forward basis. And how can people download

this new app that you have? Yeah, yeah. So you can go to the The Telepathy Center.com. We'll be releasing here in June. Check out everything. So excited to share that with the world. That's kind of like the primary updates. You can find me at Jordanjozac.com, too, just my personal bios on there. But really looking forward to getting this tool in the hands of everyone. And yeah, showing hopefully what may be like the start

of a brand new renaissance. I think, you know, my last little message for humanity is, I have walked through the darkness, figuratively, literally, you know, all of it in my life. And there's so much with this disclosure, narrative, and paradigm, that is conspiratorial

and it is dark. And it's not that, it's not true, it's just that we have a moment in time to take that right-hand path or take the left-hand path. And while all this may be scary and completely earth-shattering some, it's also the potential for a brand-new renaissance for a lot of us and for a whole new planet to be basically given brand-new tools, brand-new ways of looking at life, brand-new physics. Like, I don't think it's necessarily something we're going to figure out in the lab. I think we're going to figure out with our own minds. And we may figure out that there's a correlation to our models of physics and the way that we believe our subconscious looks at physics, right? Like, what if the underlying

mechanism is actually inside us, inside of outside of us? This is one of my favorite shows I've ever done. I hate to even call it a show if that feels sacrilegious for the really intense, deep conversation we just had. But I hope, you know, people can get something out of it, too, and I hope you enjoyed it. Yeah, no, I had a blast. I want to keep going. Like, we'll have to do another way. Let's run it back. I do another and yeah, so excited for the opportunity. Thanks to having me on, Jesse. Oh, dude, it was an honor.

If you've made it this far in the show, then I know you care enough to hear about this. Our show American Alchemy is growing super fast. It's bursting at the seams. We are looking for an amazing editor to join the team. If you're an experienced YouTube editor, podcast editor, trailer editor, or documentary-style editor, Maybe you're even a traditional Hollywood editor and you're just really into our content. And you want to work on some of the most mind-bending stories in the world. We really want to hear from you.

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