American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - This CIA Scientist Led Alien Contact Ceremonies for Elites

Episode Date: May 1, 2026

Our American Alchemist this week is Greg Mallozzi. Check out Greg’s new Substack for updates on the film, bonus archives, etc. https://www.cosmicclock.net/ Go to https://zbiotics.com/JESSE and use JESSE at checkout for 15% off any first time orders of ZBiotics probiotics. Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://www.Quo.com/JESSEGo to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY] for $20 off your membership this year. Go to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY] for $20 off your membership this year. Take the guesswork out of getting healthy in 2026. Get full body testing that goes 5x deeper than an annual physical and a personalized action plan that tells you exactly what to do next. All for just $199. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below!Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w --------JOIN OUR WHOP (Early/Ad Free Episodes) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichelsInstagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficialTikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichelsX ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmericanSpotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotifyClips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClipsApply For Jobs ➤ [e-mail] Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] 0:00 - Introduction 3:06 - Puharich's Origin Story 9:47 - The Roundtable Foundation 13:37 - Sponsors (ZBiotics) 20:05 - Channeling the Nine 33:55 - The Nine and JFK 36:46 - Sponsors (Quo) 43:08 - Intellectron Corporation 51:07 - Delgado's Mind Control Bulls 57:19 - Sponsors (Superpower) 59:19 - Fabricated Alien Abductions 1:01:17 - The Tooth Implant 1:10:44 - Uri Geller as Guinea Pig 1:15:41 - The Israeli Connection 1:28:12 - Geller Meets Von Braun 1:37:24 - A Real UFO Sighting 1:47:38 - Roddenberry and Star Trek 1:51:29 - Itzhak Bentov 1:59:08 - The Space Kids 2:20:03 - Intelligence Missions Abroad 2:26:24 - Puharich's Mysterious Death 2:33:37 - Grinberg and Stargate's End 2:42:41 - Townsend Brown Connection 2:58:08 - Oliver Reiser and Tones 3:38:26 - Sponsors (AA Merch) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. All these people conducting the seance were bringing in these nine maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian gods, but it's like a council. He really was a genuine believer. I'm Andrea Pujarach. I'm a physician by training, research scientist by choice. We have tape recordings of him meditating in the king's chamber.

What? And they brought through this information. apparently they're channeling this Egyptian god. And there are specifically nine Egyptian gods. So he gets this called metallic voice. That was some sort of alien intelligence. This is what, you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff. Like these people like weren't looking to be in the spotlight.

It took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids. It's like stranger things in real life. You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be mind control, right? Delgado, if playing radio receivers in the heads of bull. Delgado has remote control of the animal. You have a guy who's being able to play the bull like a video game. I'm revealing for the first time a lot of things that even my closest working colleagues do not know. There's reason to believe Pujarich may have been a double agent.

He says it. Really? This is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done, man. I'm here with Greg Milazzi. This has been a long time coming. We've had a lot of interesting offline conversations. You made an amazing documentary called Mind Traveler about this very mysterious mid-century scientist named Andrea Pujaric, who is like this zealig of American conspiracies.

he's this architect of MK Ultra and early CIA mind control techniques, but also seems to be channeling aliens through what he calls the space kids, this like collection of kids who he recruits who are psychic. He's the inspiration for Star Trek, incidentally. Like, he is one of the most interesting people I've ever encountered, and you've made this amazing documentary on him. So I just can't wait to dive into this, and I appreciate you being here. Oh, thanks, man.

I appreciate you having me. Absolutely. So give me a little bit about the origin story for Andre Pujah, which is he, and how did he come to be one of these kind of renegade spooky scientists involved in mind control? I guess you could start it at Northwestern University. He went there. He was a medical student. I think he started in 47.

And so he was there doing all sorts of stuff with the nervous system. He was very interested in that. And he was doing like normal medical training. And he was actually part of the Army specialized training program. Have you heard of this? No. It's this special program where basically they recruit students who they believe could be, you know, useful. to whatever they're planning on doing in certain categories of the Army,

whether it be medical, so forth. He was a medical doctor, and he was part of this program. It's very strange. Kissinger was part of this program. Really? A bunch of other weird people. Kurt Vonnegut, the author. What?

Yeah, you could look it up. It's really weird. So he was part of that. Basically, it was sort of a recruiting program, and they saw something in him all the way back. in 47 when he was a medical student. And he very rarely, in fact, I've never even heard him mention this and in all the stuff I've listened to and read about him. So for whatever reason, you know, he didn't talk about it. And that could have been his first, you know, step into that

world, the military world. But that happened when he was a medical student, like way before the Roundtable Foundation, the first lab he had or anything like that. So. What did this this military program, this army program involved? You can, even on Wikipedia, there's not much about it. But again, I think it was more like looking at certain institutions, certain places for people who are special. I mean, Army specialized training, you know, and he was considered special at that time for what he was doing. And they just saw something in him. And he was brought into that program.

I don't know what it did exactly or, you know, what like, yeah, the day-to-day. or anything, but he was part of it as well as, like, again, a list of other people, like, in all areas, right again, Kurt Vonne, get the author, like, all these people were a part of that. Where was he a medical student? Northwestern, Chicago, which, you know, is a very prestigious school. Absolutely. Evanston. And I think also J. Alan Heinek was, you know, an astronomer Blue Book was Northwestern, too. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so he's in the Chicago suburbs, and he's a medical student. how does he get into like telepathy and mind control and things like that?

I came up with the theory of the nervous system that I called the Pujarage theory. I visualized the nervous system as being embedded in the cell tissue of the body, just as the roots of a tree are embedded in the ground which gives it nourishment. But the tree also has a similar network radiating into the sky. Perhaps man does as well. And he, too, gains nourishment through a touchless process. And if dynamics can be transferred, why can't thoughts? So he was a medical student, and there's a guy also at Northwestern of the time

named Warren S. McCullough. Do you know who that is? No, who's that? You could do an episode on him. He's like, you know, a Puharach on steroids. sort of, back then at least. But he was this very far-out researcher into basically ESP stuff back then.

He was very interested in like, you know, altering drugs, psychedelic drugs, mind-altering stuff. For the audience, ESP is extrasensory perception. Yeah, yeah, extra-ensory perception. So he was at Northwesterns, this guy, McCullough. I think I'm pronouncing that right. But he sort of took Pujaroch under his wing and from what I understand was the first person who introduced him to, you know,

whatever, weird science, if you want to call it that. Because he was one of these guys, McCullough, who would, you know, on his off time, do all these, like, strange experiments with radio frequencies and that kind of stuff. And I think, like, in the academic setting, he had to, you know, put on a suit and tie and, like, not talk about that, basically. But he also was very involved in intelligence stuff. Like he was always getting sort of like we have letters from like CIA and stuff back then who were kind of going to him with questions and so forth.

McCullough. McCullough, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And he actually, there was an archive in, I think, it wasn't Northwestern. It was some bizarre archive I found years ago making the film. And, you know, I know you had Annie Jacobson on. Like, she's in the film.

And she was trying to find records on McCullough because, you know, he's really interesting. It was part of the Buhard story. And somehow we found this, like, big stash of archives of his that, again, were these letters from CIA and the Navy and everything, sort of, I guess, wanting to recruit him. But in those letters, there were letters from McCullough back to these agencies saying, you know, you should check this guy, Pujarich out. You know, he's, I work with him. He's young.

He's very smart. And he was older, like much older than Buharach at that time. I think he was probably like, you know, in his 70s or 80s or something. So, you know, he passed on. But basically that, I think, triggered Buharish get very interested in the subject. So he became almost like. obsessed with it, and he sort of had this moment back then where he's like, I'm either going to choose the traditional academic path or I'm going to choose the path of ESP telepathy. And he talks

very openly about making that choice. I was unexpectedly put in contact with Henry A. Wallace, vice president under Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was impressed by my quest for the existence of telepathy and granted me a large sum of money. Additional benefactors emerged, including the heirs to two of the wealthiest families in the world, the Aster's and the DuPonts. I was able to get a barn. I started working in the dead of winter in 48th in Maine. We lived in a big 50-room house on the seashore, which was the lab in residence and so on.

It was called the Roundtable Foundation. And so he opens the Roundtable Foundation. So there's a lot going on with how that even opened because it's a huge lab. It's like a massive barn. It's on the coast of Maine, Rockland, Maine, it's called. So, you know, it's this huge place. He's got like a staff, you know, all. And the thing with Pujarach, I learned, like, he tells a different story of how,

the roundtable started and how we got the money and everything to what we kind of figured out was really going on what did you figure out well it was all you know government funded um at that time who fun it was the cia or uh everyone army navy um something called the um something armor foundation that was somehow tied into into the army but but basically any any of those places back then i mean we have letters of all of them. You get army, you name it. I mean, they were just like flocking to this place, basically giving him money to do research. And this was, yeah, 49, 50, very early. Fascinating.

And you think their preliminary interest was mind control, telepathy, anything beyond the purview of kind of normal materialist reductionist physics, that might be able to be weaponized or confer a tactical advantage to the United States? It's complex, but yes, the short answer is yes, but I think obviously there was an interest in ESP and in what he was doing and in this idea of, okay, what if this is real. I mean, he speaks a lot and we, you know, we uncovered like hundreds of tape recordings of his that no one's ever heard. And so, you know, he talks a lot about like they were just obsessed at that time with like, what if this were real? What are the implications? What if somebody could

basically remote view. I mean, he was doing remote viewing. And this is something like, I don't think is really out there, like way, way before SRI, 70s, like we're talking early 50s. Whoa. He's basically doing what would be considered remote viewing. Do you think Hal Putoff was aware of Pujarach's kind of foundation that he set with remote viewing? Because the story is that, you know, official American remote viewing kind of started with Hal Putoff and Russell Targ and Stanford Research Institute. Yeah. I'm not. trying to make bold statements.

That's not, you know, true. If you look, if you're looking at it from a, like, research, when did this start? Because we have, like, all of the roundtable research, which is so much, I mean, even all the time we spent on the film, it's, I still haven't looked at all. But they basically detail the experiments going on, which were, you know, your classic ESP stuff, you know, like the cards. Yep. All that. But no, they were doing like what would exactly the definition of like remote viewing. And so, yeah, I think they were, they, you know, intelligence community, so forth,

where we're just very intrigued with what was going on there. So it's a combination of kind of, you know, these military factions and then these kind of blue-blooded elites. Yeah. Sort of. And what exactly is going on there? So who is he recruiting to do these experiments and what? What sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation? So I want to take a moment to thank one of today's sponsors, Zbiotics.

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No questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash jesse and use the code Jesse at checkout for 15% off. What exactly is going on there? So who is he recruiting to do these experiments and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation? So, again, it started with a lot of just basic ESP stuff. You know, can somebody pick up on what's written on a letter in the other room? A lot of, yeah, like the card guessing. And then he obviously built a Faraday cage there.

And I think, you know, was one of the first people, as far as I understand, doing ESP tests in a Faraday cage. where basically he would put people who claim to be psychic in the cage. And it was his belief that that could sort of block out anything from the outside. And it would really help the psychic focus and be able to do what they could do. And he had, I mean, Aldous Huxley would go to the Roundtable Foundation. Yeah, yeah. And obviously, Aldous Huxley is known probably best for a lot of his science fiction work,

but also, you know, the doors of perception where he talks about his experience, with mescaline and then you know if you really get into the maybe deeper kind of architectures of his thinking like in perennial philosophy he's like clearly this kind of deep esotericist and so he was hanging out at the roundtable foundation too yeah they were good friends in fact on uh buharic's book of the sacred mushroom which is how i got into this whole thing i i had read that book when i was much younger and i was really interested in all that stuff and uh you know So what's the book, DMT, the spirit molecule. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I was really into that. And I came across the Sacred Mushroom, Buharach's book, which is very interesting. Have you read that? I haven't read it. Yeah. I think I have it, but I haven't read it. The premise is basically, you know, and this was also the research he was doing at the roundtable was, you know, taking a certain type of mushroom in this instance, the aminita of

muscaria, you know, gives people ESP abilities. they did extensive research on that there. But on the cover of that book, you know, Aldous Huxley gives a blur for Pujaharich and calls him, you know, the greatest mind in parapsychology. But yeah, they were good friends. He was there all the time. Again, very interested in what he was doing. Really thought Pujarach was like onto something.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the Amanita Muscaria mushroom is a very interesting mushroom. It's the kind of archetypal, you know, emoji on all of our, you know, cell phones or iPhones, at least. But it also, I believe, John Marco Allegro, who was a, you know, a scholar of various, you know, ancient languages, he came to the very heretical conclusion that the Eucharist itself was an Aminida muskaria mushroom. And so the actual transubstantiation involved this like mushroom. And that maybe what Jesus underwent was some sort of kind of pagan mystery ritual that allowed him to sort of gain the magical powers that he.

achieved in the book of Acts and that that whole thing had some kind of hermetic meaning that, you know, isn't just maybe a literal reincarnation or something. Yeah. And so that I assume that must have, because I think his, the name of his book is similar. It's the sacred mushroom in the cross or something. Yeah, yeah. So was there maybe some, some influence there with Biharach? I'm sure there was, you know, from what I understand when Buharach's book came out, it was, you know, it's now sort of like a cult classic, but at the time it was like, you know, controversial because basically people that didn't believe in what he was writing. Yeah. And that, I think, kind of kick started the, you know, way people looked at Buhar, which is being, you know, kind of like a kook. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he clearly wasn't. Clearly, but he was, he also was amongst, he was kind of a pioneer and had a few peers who were also at the forefront of their fields, people like Albert Hawley. Hoffman, Carl Ruck, and Stanislav Groff, who thought of themselves as creating what they called the new elusis, based on kind of, you know, past mystery rituals, the El-Eucinian mystery rituals. Yeah. And they involved ergod and psychedelic substances and, you know,

these sort of, you know, Persephone's quest style. You know, you go down, you descend to the underworld, and you come back up. Yeah. You know, you gain knowledge of your primordial soul. And so Pujarich was, you know, uh, uh, uh, He was amidst this backdrop. He was sort of on his come-up, which, you know, maybe isn't a coincidence.

We are the positive principles of cosmos. We penetrate, visit persons. We work through this body, but is under our control. We nine and are we? The very first time that I overheard about the nine was through Dr. V-Nod. And never see people like this that I've studied, Dr. Behnod, had become a channel for a civilization somewhere out there from outer space. It's so alien to our thinking, we can't even comprehend it. They call themselves these beings the nine.

What is the nine? They said, well, it's hard to explain you. We're not personalities, as you think of personality. We're more like laws or principle to the universe. The part of Pujarach's story where I think things sort of change in his life is when, you know, this instance happens when the first channeled the nine, which was in 52. And it is correct. All these people were there. Again, these were people who were like benefactors who were interested in what he was doing. But it all started with this guy, Vinod, that you may have heard, name. He was an Indian psychic. He came to the roundtable again through recommendation of somebody

Pujaharach that was working with. And the story goes, he shows up in Maine, goes to the Roundtable Foundation, and the first night he's there, he just unexpectedly falls into a trance. And, you know, they're like, what's going on here? Someone grabs a tape recorder, which we have the tapes of. And he goes into a trance and he just starts speaking, you know, saying, you know, we are the nine and where we're coming through to you now and just kind of on and on and on about a lot of philosophical new age sort of stuff, basically. I mean, it's really, really, it's a lot. I mean, there's thousands of pages literally of transcripts of what they recorded with him. But that's how the story goes of how the nine first appears, basically this guy, Vanad. But mostly Vanad, so the interesting thing about this guy, Dr. Vanad was his name.

He was friends with Gandhi, right? They were really close. So this was something I learned way later into the process of the film. Because, you know, this was, as you know, it took like almost 10 years. And it was mostly because these new facts and things were just like come up. that I never knew or somebody would say, hey, have you seen this? And so, Vanad, like, I only really discovered a couple years into it,

but he was an interesting guy. And he was on a tour at the time in the United States, going to, like, rotary clubs and dinner parties, like, lecturing about theosophy and spiritualism and all sorts of stuff like that. And it is very, very little information on this guy. I mean, we tried to dig up like everything we possibly could. But that's what we know about him. He was a professor at university in Bombay.

And again, with Buharach, like, he never mentions any of that. His version of the story is this guy. They just randomly came in and fell into a trance, no context. You know, never mentions it. So that begins this like, okay, what's really going on here? Because he clearly has a background, that's interesting that he just never mentioned. And then when Bajvanad leaves eventually, I think 54, he goes back,

and it never talks about him again, you know. There's this huge moment in his life. The nine first comes through, through this guy, and he just sort of like never talks about it. I think that's where the conspiracy starts as far as what people believe to be like, I guess a sciop. I mean, I don't want, we don't have to get into that now. No, I want to get into this.

eye up elements of it, but it sounds like fundamentally he's a believer in extra sensory perception, psychic abilities, right? He's not cynical about those things. Who, Gujaric? Yeah. No, yeah, that's, I think, a big question. And even now, I always think, but, I mean, yeah, there's just no question he was interested in that. Yeah. And earnestly, or do you think it was some front? Oh, earnestly, yeah. Okay. Because what's, and we'll get into this in a little bit, but there are also possible prosaic explanations around exotic electromagnetic wavelength that can cause, you know, thoughts to be implanted in people and stuff, which is nuts.

Yeah, yeah. But I think he wouldn't reduce everything to that would be my rough understanding personally. No, no, no. Yeah, there's a lot to get into there. But basically, so what did the nine say? Yes. And so, again, it's really, it's a lot. I have to give a shout out to Dick Russell.

Yeah, I do. So he's awesome. Great guy. And he's written some amazing books. And so he was friends with this woman, Marianne Schenafield, this, you know, allegedly amazing psychic. She passed away, but I got to know Dick. And he said, you know, I met Buharach once. In fact, I tape record an interview with him.

It was 94, literally the year before Buharach. died slash was found dead mysteriously. But he recorded an interview with him because at the time Dick Russell was wanting to write like a definitive book about MK Ultra and he wanted to interview these people involved in it. In fact, he has one of the only interviews as far as I know with Sidney Gottlie, spent a whole day with him. He literally told me to show up at his house and said, hey, you know, yes or no, will you let me interview you?

And he said yes. And so he has that. So this was part of that research. He was doing for a book. Just for the audience real quick, because now we're getting into what the nine said. But Sidney Gottlieb was known as the kind of U.S. version of Joseph Mangel, a poisoner in chief, an architect of M.K. Ultra from the technical staff services. So that's wild. Dick Russell spent a whole day with him.

Yeah. So what are the nine saying? So, yeah, it's a lot of the sort of usual, I guess, channeling talk where there's this idea that there's been this, this surveillance of Earth, and that they've been monitoring Earth and they've been seeing the negative things happening. They've been seeing wars. They've been seeing nuclear weapons. And they're wanting to help, basically.

The general message is this idea that they are, are wanting. to help the human race, you know, basically not destroy itself. This, you know, goes on way through the 70s when Buharach, the 9 come back. But it was basically a lot of, yeah, trying to help humanity. It was a lot of like, you've probably heard a lot about how they, sometimes these channelers are, you know, what is it called, like, remote writing when someone's in a automatic writing. Yeah, automatic writing.

There is a lot of like very complex equations. that would come through, that would, the nine, the nine, meaning vanad in a trance, speaking as the nine, a lot of, like,

write this down, because you'll understand later what it means, sort of stuff. And we have this notebook that he wrote everything in. It's really, I mean, maybe, I'm sure you might know

somebody who could look at this. I mean, I'm just making the film. I mean, I'm very... Well, we should see if any of it checks with actual science or math or... It's crazy. They would say, the nine, they would say, you know, okay, look, you're contacting us through a psychic,

but if you want a clearer feed, a clearer transmission, you have to put the psychic in a Faraday cage, and on top of that, you should tweak the Faraday cage and build it this way and use this type of metal, and use this, they were telling him and constructing him how to, like, build the Faraday cage in a specific way that would help this transmission and it did. Whoa. Because you can hear the tapes. It was a lot, it was very like stalled speech

and waiting and when they did the Faraday Cage sessions, it was like just boom, they would talk. So I heard that and I was like, okay, well, that's weird, you know? So crazy. Because like, again, there's a lot of it that you could just say, oh, you know, this could have been made up

or whatever, but when it gets to that, it was very, very specific stuff. you know, copper, they were big on copper. You need to use that. And it needs to be, you know, these dimensions. I mean, really specific stuff. And they would follow it. So they were basically, like, following instructions from the nine.

And you see the results get better as far as they're channeling as... You see the results get better. And that, again, to me, I just thought, that's interesting. Because it's not just sort of like, you know, spiritual mumbo-jumbo. hand wavy stuff that's like totally un falsifiable yeah it's like the literally like the transmissions are coming when you say that it's getting better it's just like more more gets channeled like more substance yeah more information clearer yeah just sort of more precise and the other thing too was again it was this copper this thing with copper where they would also say okay what you need to do is you

need to get the this is really crazy because of what happens later on in his story but they would say, you know, you need to have copper touching your skin. And so you would, you would need some sort of like bracelet or something that would kind of like constantly be touching your skin in order, again, for like the transmission to be better. And they would do that. And what's crazy is one of the space kids that I met and that we interviewed for the film, she whipped out this, this was, you know, only a couple years ago. She whipped. She whipped. out this bracelet she had that was like a copper, a little copper plate on this bracelet that she said like they all had to wear when they were doing their channeling sessions with him decades

later. So the copper thing is strange. And he, and Pujaraj obsessed over that. And that's the other thing. To me, you know, being a little skeptical, I was like, well, someone of Pujarach's, you know, academic abilities, like clearly he wouldn't take the time and the energy like to, like, to look into this stuff as deep as he did, you know, like he, like obsessed over this. He would go meet other academics. Hey, does this check out? And, you know, he really, like, was obsessive about this being legitimate. And Phyllis Schlamer, who later wrote the only planet of choice, which channels the nine. I think she talks about the nine with respect to messages around the earth being a bottleneck of consciousness, right? And, like, other planet.

being more ascended and these nine really trying to help raise consciousness on earth, which might sort of sound like a cliche, but... Yeah. One thing that they were doing at the roundtable was that this psychic, this one particular psychic would claim that at a certain time of night, they would see an orb, and they would go outside by the ocean, and they would see orbs. and this happened. And the only, you know, evidence I have is Buhar, his own writing, because we have all of his journals, and he writes this in his journals where he literally says, like, this psychic would have blurt out, you know, 11 o'clock, you know, tonight, and they'd go out, and they would see an orb. Whoa.

And I just thought that was interesting because if there's, there's so much talk of this orb stuff going on currently, I don't know a whole lot about it, but I just that kind of rang a bell where I'm like, oh, yeah, he wrote about that. And he he did many experiments where he allegedly took photos, which of course, you know, weren't in the big stash of photos we had from back then. But he, that's what he claimed, that there was like orb activity. This would have been, you know, early 50s again. Yeah. So trippy. Yeah, no, that almost sounds like Chris Bledsoe or something. These people who seem to attract these orbs.

And it would make sense because those people also seem to be sort of high sigh or, you know, have. higher kind of mind matter capabilities or whatever. There seems like there's some sort of correlation there. The connection Levenda makes is that all these people conducting the seance, bringing in these nine maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian gods or whatever. We don't exactly know what these nine beings are, but it's like a council.

And later the nine plays prominently because this channel or Phyllis Schlamer, like gets all these messages from the nine along with a lot of the kids and stuff. But that all of the people in this original seance with these blue-blooded elites are also entangled with the JFK assassination, which is so crazy. Let's make a long story short.

There's a seance that's held in late 52, early 53. I think it was the New Year's Eve of 52 to 53. And there are nine people involved in the seance. Now, these are not just some casualty-old. nine people you pick up like, you know, your neighbors or something, right? This was a DuPont and an Astor and a Forbes. I mean, everybody that represents the blue-blooded Brahms of American society, old money people, were at a sands, a freaking sands, right?

In the woods, in Maine on New Year's Eve with Andrea Paharich. And one of them is the guy who was the inventor of the Bell helicopter. Right. Is that Arthur Young? Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there with his wife. His wife is Ruth Forbes Payne Young, right? She had a lot of names. She was excessively nomenclatured. And so you have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. She's a Forbes. She was married to George Payne, Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur Young. So in that seance with the, you know, these kind of blue-blooded elites that Poo-Herich is convening, I think one of the people who's close with Mary Bankroft, who is Dulles' mistress, is a woman named Ruth Forbes Payne. Yeah, Ruth Forbes. And so she's a Forbes first.

So, again, go into the blue-blooded elite thing. But I think her daughter is Ruth Payne who takes in Lee Harvey Oswald. I know. And Lee Harvey-Ozweil is living with Ruth Payne. and I think gets a job at the Texas book depository in Texas, in Dallas, through Ruth Payne, and then ends up, you know, maybe not being the lone gunman, but, you know, attempting JFK's life. And in her home, she opens her door to some refugees, you know, people who are recent immigrants from Russia, Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina and their kids.

Whoa. So they're living with Ruth Payne in this house. in Texas. She gets him the job at the Texas school book depository. And so it's these weird entanglements where, and the nine believed themselves to be sort of

agents, or sorry, the group in the seance believed themselves to be agents of these extraterrestrials, right? Like to be acting on their behalf. And so like, and I know Pooha Rich would stop at airports and meditate because he thought he would be bringing about world peace and that the nine

would speak to him through his watch and stuff. And so I wonder sometimes, was it all good or was it bad? I mean, I don't think, you know, the assassination of JFK was good. He seemed like a great man who was resisting, really dark forces. Yeah, yeah. So it's a strange story. Well, I just want to hear something really strange about that. Oh, yeah.

So. Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia experiment. And it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then, half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. And you know who is leading the whole project? My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team

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plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com slash Jesse. That's QU.U.S. You know.com slash jesse. Quo. No missed calls. No missed customers. Now back to the show. I want to hear something really strange about that. Oh, yeah.

That's why you're here. This, yeah, this woman who I got to know very well, who's in the film, she was Pujaharach's assistant for many years. And starting in, I think, 63. And basically she worked with him, I think, until, like, the mid-80s. And she's amazing. She's from Hawaii. Very nice woman, but she met him in New York.

She was a student at NYU, and Buharach was working. This is a whole other thing to get into, but he had started his company there called Intellectron Corporation. But she started as sort of an intern at this company Intellectron, which was basically a biomedical research company. We can get into that. But basically she told me a story that she was working at Intellectron the day JFK was assassinated and that these men in suits, she says, came into the offices, went into Pujarach's office, said something to him that seemed very serious and they left. And she said the whole rest of the day Pujarach was out of sorts.

What? This could be as simple as, you know, how horrible. that the president was shot or it could have been something else, but she was very specific to say, I remember this happening. It was very strange. But to finish the nine thing, basically in the fifth,

the roundtable ends in 57, I think, right? Meaning they, for whatever reason, I mean, I think I know the reason. Basically, he moved on to Intellectron, which I can talk about.

But he, you know, he claims, oh, we ran out of funding, the benefactors, lost interest, and it shut down. But all the while he was getting money from the army.

I mean, there's records of that. But so the nine stopped allegedly. And I think LeVenda, I think talks about this, but a lot of like the early nine related conspiracies start around that time, too, with this idea that it was a sci-op or that it was this early psychological warfare experiment where can we get, you know,

certain groups of people to believe in something and to what extent, and a lot of people think that that was like the nine. They think that's all it was. They think any sort of like real channeling or any, is just, you know, is fake, and that it was all set up as this sort of psychological warfare experiment, which, you know, there's reasons to think that could be true,

but that's where a lot of that, you know, starts. You know, I think that's possible, but you think about like when did MK Ultra start. It was probably, there's probably stuff going on before 52. But really the Korean War is like when, you know, conventionally it's dated to. And the idea that they were that sophisticated at the very start of MK Ultra where they could convince these sort of elite members of society that they were in touch with these specific extraterrestrial beings. and that those extraterrestrial brings were constructing Faraday chambers that were able to make the messages they received

more effective, like this elaborate sort of magic trick that seems a little beyond the pale to me. But that's... It's a big mystery. I mean, even, I'll admit it, the years and years I research, I mean, even I don't know. Like a lot of people I talk to who are interested in this stuff and know about the film and so forth, like they think that I know all the answers.

And I wish I did. And it's not like I'm hiding something because I'm worried that, you know, I'm going to be a monitor. I just don't, you know. I know what was in the archives. And a lot of the film for me was like, okay, what do we know? What is a fact? And let's like work off that. And so it was really just like, okay, here's the transcripts.

Here's what they were saying. Speaking of what are the facts, we have to get back to this intellectualon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, so is the implication of this story that this company had something to do with the assassination of JFK? Or like, were these men in tweed suits raiding the office, the CIA? And were they thinking that Intellectron had something to do with this? So, um, so Puj, yeah, he leaves the round table. He moves to New York City or he moves to Ossining.

A lot of people know this in relation to Buharich. because you live there most his life. Upstate New York. Yeah, it's, you know, an hour on the train north of the city. You know, Madman, of course, the show. Like, I didn't even realize all the characters, they all live in Ossining. Like, Don, I guess there's, I remember watching it,

but there's some reference, like, they live in Ossing. So it's a very, you know, wealthy area. And all of a sudden, Buharich has what's considered, like, a mansion there, basically. Huge house. He moves there. He tells his family that basically he just got this contract to study basically more of what was going on at the Roundtable Foundation,

but there were specific people who needed him to move to New York. So they moved there. I mean, his family life is a whole different thing. He had his wife sadly committed suicide around this time. Really? Yeah, he was very, like, you know, distraught about that. What happened? I received a grim call from Jenny's father.

Jenny had quietly leapt from the hospital roof into eternity. I wept for Jenny. I wept for my failure to keep her healthy and happy. I wept for our three daughters who would never know a normal upbringing. I cried out to God in crushing despair. But so they moved to New York. He starts this company called, Intellectron. He gets a, Annie Jacobson helped figure this out. He gets a grant for $300,000,

which at the time would have been like at least a million dollars or more from the Atomic Energy Commission, which is strange. And we have all the documents that we found that prove that they went and visited him. They gave him this grant. So he starts this thing, Intellectron, which is basically labeled as a biomedical research company. So they have an office in a Hell's Kitchen. And again, with Puharach, I just, it's, I have to, to stress like, there is always these instances in his life, this one being the, really the first, but it was sort of the roundtable too, where like all of a sudden he just has this company and this, and

these employees. Yeah. And this fun, you know, all the sudden, it's just, you know, kind of expensive to have a big office in New York City and all this state and all this state of the art at the time, electronic equipment. Well, it sounds like a classic intelligence world front sort of stuff. Well, I'll get to it. How does Epstein have a huge hedge fund? Oh, yeah. He just always had, and it's always this company.

Yeah. And basically in this was early 60s, now 62, 63, this is when he starts the hearing experiments where basically. he claims that deaf people would come into the office and they would do research on them. And basically they designed a device which would enable deaf people to hear, basically by emitting a certain frequency that would somehow bypass the normal way we hear and go directly to the hearing center and the brain. and it was this breakthrough medical discovery, which, you know, go figure goes completely quiet.

No one ever hears about it. Yeah. But that's when he first starts this whole, you know, radio frequency stuff, voices in the head kind of stuff, which again was under this, you know, we're researching on deaf people, we're doing this, you know, in a medical sense, we're helping people.

But that's when these, you know, men in suits show up. That's when once again he's getting contracts from Navy, CIA. Again, almost everyone that was involved at the roundtable was back in this Intellectron situation with him. And so that, I think the connection, I mean, I don't want to just jump to conclusions, but I think what I've often thought with this JFK thing and why to Melanie is a sister didn't seem like such a big deal, is that it may have had some tie in with a mind control, sort of like a Sirhan-Sahun situation with Lee Harvey-Aws. I mean, I know that's like a pretty crazy, bold claim, but that's just what I've thought.

It's not that. Because they were doing that. This is, we're talking, and again, this is something I don't think a lot of people know. And I think people don't realize a lot of that MK Ultra stuff happened much early. but they were doing this work in 62, 63 of like, basically sending messages to people's heads, you know. And we have footage, we have, I mean, it's real. The people from the Atomic Energy Commission write very clearly in letters we found.

Like, we went, Annie Jacobson talks about it, I think, in her book. Like, one of the guys is like, I don't believe you, you know, test me and just, and did the test on himself, and it worked. And then it goes, it goes dark. And Intellectron closes. And all of a sudden it's on to the next sort of, you know, mysterious company. Deep Black program or, yeah, some other front company. Yeah.

That's really, really trippy. Is there any explicit connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Intellectron or that sort of speculation on your part? I haven't looked. But I just think, you know, if you want to go there, it's like, like Lvenda says, connection there at the roundtable and then this weird incident where they seem to make a big deal about telling him about the assassination at that exact time, that exact year, they're researching ways to be able to send messages to in someone's mind to do something specific, Manchurian candidate, etc., etc. Apparently Dulles did not want the fact that Ruth Payne had actually been at the summer

house or whatever. I think that summer right before JFK was assassinated. Yeah. He did not want, you know, that at all on record. I think Mary Bancroft, like, started to talk about it. And he, like, you know, he kind of acted like he didn't know what was going on when, like, you know, he would have reacted earnestly if he hadn't. He clearly did know what was going on. And obviously, Dulles was probably, you know, among a very short list of people. If you, you know, the intersection of capabilities, motivation to take out JFK,

Dulles has to be on anybody's short list. Yeah. And then to further kind of steelman there maybe being a there there, we know that Jack Ruby was an MK Ultra patient. I mean, like 95%, you know, like you have letters between Jolly West and Sidney Gottlieb, who's definitely the kind of architect of MK Ultra, you know, and Jolly West was, you know, UCLA psychiatry, but clearly very involved in Operation Midnight Climax and maybe brainwashed Charles Manson. And he sees Jack Ruby, who never remembers killing Lee Harvey Oswald in his jail cell alone, no cameras, comes back, comes out and says, Jack Ruby has had a psychiatric break. And then Jack Ruby, you know, who was fully lucid, but just didn't remember having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, talks about Jews dying outside of his cell and just like literally cracks. So very, very strange, you know, possible connections. Well, the other really strange thing at this time was that Pujarish was working with someone named Jose Delgado,

who he probably might know who that is. Delgado, an old friend of a brilliant researcher from Spain, implanted radio receivers in the heads of bull. Delgado has remote control of the animal. Do you realize the fantastic possibilities if from the outside we could modify, the inside, could we give messages to the inside? He was a guy from Spain. He was a researcher. He was involved with a lot of this sort of mind stuff in the 60s, late 50s, 60s. But I think he's mostly known as somebody who did experiments with implanting, putting an implant in the head of a bull and basically being able to remote control a bull and basically say, go this, stop, go left.

go right and he was able to do it. There's literally footage of the experiment happening. And Pujarich, we later found out was close friends, as Pujarach says himself, with Delgado. We found letters between the two of them during this time. And it was nothing too sinister. It was mostly like, hey, I'm going to go to this conference. Are you going to be there? But they clearly were close. I mean, there's some people I met during the process of this. who were like, don't, don't even go there and don't talk about the connection you had with Delgado. But, you know, I was interested to. No, it's fascinating.

You have a guy who's being able to pacify a bull and play the bull like a video game. And that clearly was the air to MK Ultra, which was mostly sodium pentothal LSD, that sort of thing. It's chemical based. If in the early 60s, we had chips that could control. animals, and you add heirs to MK Ultra, like MK Often, which were done, I believe, at the Science and Engineering Institute in the Northeast as well. Yeah. It's like, of course, you know, we're going to be way more advanced on that stuff now.

It's creepy to think about. It's one of those things you don't even want to think about it because the second you do think about it, you get into reality being far we're weirder than we could ever imagine. So, yeah, if you think, okay, they're putting an implant in the head of a bull, like you say, basically remote controlling the thing, why wouldn't you try to do that to a human being? I mean, why wouldn't you? And I think that was going on at Intellectron.

I mean, I'm sure of it because there's just way too many, there's way too many connections. I don't have a document that says, here's the experiment we did. But that whole decade of the 60s was such an odd decade, for Buharachi was so, like, quiet. Like, all, there's all these records of the roundtable, you know, tapes, photos, everything.

And all of a sudden you get to the 60s, it's like nothing, really. Very little documentation, very little, you know, photographic evidence of what he was up to. And all of a sudden in the 70s, boom, picks back up, there's 100 photo. So it's a very mysterious decade, and it was just so happened to be when he had this company in Electron. Yeah.

With these very odd connections. connections Delgado. I think it's becoming super clear that... And the other thing, too, not to cut you off, is I've, with all this stuff in this film, I've gone to like the ends of the earth that try to track down. Absolutely nothing.

This place never existed in electron. You would not find... The only thing I ever found was there's a guy, a pretty interesting guy, actually, his name's Beardsley Graham. He was involved in NASA in the 60s, early 70s, colleague of Buharach's, but he was like, I guess,

he was somehow involved in Intellectron as like an outside consultant or something. And in his archives at Berkeley, there was like a couple documents that had, you know, an electron letterhead and it was like correspondence. And that was like the only thing I could find. And even in that, it was nothing revealing.

It was, again, it was just like records and sort of like, you know, financial, records, which, again, didn't point to anything. Yeah. You know, so, so there's just, this place did not exist. But it's so crazy. It very much did. Well, it's, I mean, now, I feel like it's one of these things that's slowly shifting, you know,

and I think more and more people are going to start to recognize the fact that MK had a role not only in the JFK assassination, but in the RFK assassination. You mentioned Sir Han, Sir Han, who had written in his diary right before, he shot RFK, just like over and over. It was like some neurolinguistic programming was coming through him. To this day, he does not remember having shot him. He's like, you know, I must kill him, must kill, you know, sort of thing. And you have RFK Jr. now who's head of the FDA.

He himself has gone deep on his father's death. I think he was 14 at the time. And I think he recognizes that he was actually shot from the back and not from the front. So there was this other gunman, again, just like JFK, I think he thinks that, you know, MK Ultra was involved. You know, this guy, William Jennings Bryan, not to be confused with the 1890s, William Jennings Bryan, was this kind of mysterious, deep, stady figure who, I believe was tight with Sir Han, Sir Han. And so, you know, I think these things are going to start to come out, that MK. Ultra was far more pervasive than we ever realized. And there's even a book called, I don't know if you know about this book, The Controllers by Martin Cannon. Yeah, yeah.

He mentions Buharach in that. So this book is insane. What's the thesis of this book? As you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with, whether they're physicists, intelligence officers, people who've worked inside black programs, are operating at a really impressive level mentally. Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings. Often their work takes a toll, and a lot of them track their health obsessively. Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers, often things that most people never look at. Meanwhile, last time I went to a primary care doctor, they ran maybe like eight biomarkers,

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get an additional $20 off with code alchemy. Head to superpower.com and use code alchemy at checkout for $20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them, so please make sure to mention American Alchemy to support the show. What's the thesis of this book? It's basically about this idea of the fabrication of alien abductions, right? That's at least a big part of it. Some of them being chip implantations,

done basically for MK Ultra purposes. And people being tricked into saying, oh, you're like, this is your guardian angel or whatever. Well, there's a whole thing. We can go, we can get to that later. But the whole electron thing, basically, to cap that off, it was, yeah, one of many of these very, to me, it became very obvious fronts.

I mean, there's just no question about it, you know, that he had, and they were doing all that type of experimentation. Again, there's footage of them doing an experiment on a woman. There's no sound, but it's obvious what's happening. You can see, you know, she's in the other room. She's behind a wall there in the other room. He has his device that he invented in the early 60s called the TD 100, which I've told you about. And this basically enables like a certain frequency to be.

sent to somebody and you know it's kind of like a situation where if you're exposed to this frequency it says at a certain wavelength that only you can hear and anyone else around you can't can't hear and this kind of ties into what he was doing later in the 70s but they're doing an experiment on on a woman using this and it's very clear what's happening and it's very clear it's working this was this was like neuralink basically and you could you could send or implant thoughts to a person. Yeah. That's crazy. And so how exactly did it were you played a tone and then you would...

Well, there's two things. One of the things he invented back then too, which again was Pujerich says himself was classified and you've probably heard of this as the two thin plant. A device could be inserted into one of your back molars that acted as a transducer that could send signals across the facial nerves into the hearing centers of the brain. It took about a month of daily therapy, and they would have their hearing improved significantly. It was extraordinary because it was a totally new way

of understanding how we hear. You could send signals to someone secretly. It had a lot of potential. We gave a demonstration at the Pentagon. We fit a distant place with this general, and we had somebody out in the hall broadcasting, and he said, God damn what I hear it. God damn what I hear it? The bastard did it. It was basically a radio receiver that would be, I guess at one point it was, Pujarich kind of says it, says it as though you could slip on

some sort of thing, like anyone could just kind of like slip this thing on their tooth, but in other instances, it was very specific about it being like a real, like cat, what do you call it, a molar or something that would really be put on your tooth, and that would basically be able to receive a radio signal, it would pick it up here, and it would send it through the nerves of the face that would basically connect to whatever air in your brain you register, you know, sounds. And so you could be, again, and you could clearly see. see them doing this, and this was very short, a short distance, like I said, a woman right across the room. And you can clearly see they're able to do it. So you can imagine if the research continued,

at what length can this go? Can this be in another town? Can be in another state? Could it be in another country? So that's what they were experimenting with. But so the first part of it was the tooth, where you could send a message to the tooth implant, hear it in the head. And the second part, was an offshoot of that where basically, from what I understand, you sort of bypass the whole two thing. And it's a very specific radio frequency that I guess you can't tune into, like on a normal frequency band or radio. Do you know what frequency?

No, he doesn't talk about it. That would seem to be extremely classified, it would be my guess. It's a lot to do with sine waves. Yeah. I must say, again, like, I'm, this is not my fourth. Forte. Sure, sure. A lot of this I stumbled into.

Yeah. But it was this idea that, again, you would bypass the tooth and the frequency would essentially just be sent directly to the head and be picked up in that same area that the tooth was essentially connecting to. Yeah, just to also substantiate what you're saying to the audience who might think were crazy. I mean, as early as Beethoven, he was deaf, and he used something called bone conduction, where he would bite on to. to a conductive rod while he was playing piano,

that would bypass his ear canal, and the vibrations would literally play in his brain. And so he would, like, de facto be able to hear his own playing without actually kind of, you know, hearing it through his ear canal. Yeah. So that is a thing. There's a story of, there's a kind of apocryful, but I think substantiated story around Lucille Ball,

who had just... I've heard about this. Yeah, it's in the telepathy tapes. Yeah. And she had gotten a two, filling or whatever, and she's driving, and she starts to hear the radio in her head because she still has some metal in her teeth. I think there's a story with Puharach. Where some guy works at a metal mill or something? Yeah, that was his first aha moment, is that

they got a mental patient, a guy who claimed who's hearing voices, but his family's convinced he's, you know, sane, and we're worried because they want to put him in a mental hospital, and we don't want that to happen. So, you know, can you check him out? So they bring them in, get to know him and he says, okay, I work at this metal factory where I guess basically he's grinding metal pieces and this kind of thing. Annie Jacobson talks about it too in her book. Pujarach's theory was that this metal dust had somehow collected on his teeth and in essence acted like a radio antenna. We found out he was tuned to station W-O-R in New York. And they put the mental patient in their Faraday cage, which blocks out all electronic signals.

And the mental patient suddenly is no longer hearing voices, is like perfectly sane. And sure not, soon as we lock the door, the sound ceased. Open the door, the sound would come on. That's pretty remarkable of Puharich, to think that all through and to tell you. test it in the laboratory. And that kicked off, like, all of this research where it said, okay, well, if that's possible, like what else is possible with that basic idea that that's, you know, real. Yeah, and if you can bypass the ear canal with vibration, whatever is processing the audio

ultimately in the brain, we know that you can turn molecular mass into frequency. Everything has a, quote-unquote, resonant frequency. Yeah. This sounds woo-woo, but what I just said is fact. Yeah. could you then use some sort of electromagnetic, you know, radio wave or some wave that connects directly to the brain? And that kind of gets in a freaky territory because you end up in sort of psychic warfare, you know, that's ubiquitous or whatever in widespread. Like, it's kind of weird to think about.

But, I mean, if you're saying that was possible back then, it's just wild. And then you mentioned sine waves. I just interviewed a guy named Dan Sherman. Yeah. And you texted me when you saw the interview because you said it, you felt like it kind of comported with a lot of the stuff you had been studying around. Yeah. If Pujarj, if Pujarge is doing this stuff in the 60s, then it kind of makes me believe

the Sherman stuff a whole lot more, which was happening in the early 90s. Yeah. Around messages he is downloading. But maybe it does beget the question, you know, is the Sherman stuff genuinely, you know, extraterrestrial or were people beaming messages that were extraterrestrial to test the veracity of the messaging or whatever through him? And I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think he was lying and I think the program is real. The genesis of it was in 1947. We came in contact with an alien species. And in 1960, they started a project. It was called Project Preserved Destiny.

and it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for. And he said, I'm going to play a tone, and I want you to mentally hum that tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection. The line will change. When I saw the sineway move,

And I went, oh, okay, well, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening. This is not possible. Yeah. Do you think that it was kind of a development from, you know, what you were looking into with Pujard? I'd have to imagine it was. And that's always the question, you know. You said there are a lot of sine waves. He literally says I had to flatten a sine wave.

When I saw the sine wave move, it is like it came into full. focus, this thing that I was doing on my head. That's why I, that's why I reached out because, again, like, for me, a lot of this was, okay, I have all this information. I'm not a, you know, I'm not a physicist. I'm not, most of this stuff. But I'd have to imagine it's connected because Buharach, the way this machine worked as well had something to do with specific sign waves, very, very specific, you know, he was always talking about sine waves. And so I just, I can, I just, I can't imagine that that wasn't some sort of early interpretation of what what he was talking and you have this machine that you like were you like you're matching tones and stuff i mean that sounds exactly

yeah it's all tone it's all tones and then the thing with the machine is again um and like you said sounding crazy like for a long time making this film you know like i had to really grapple with like that a lot because I knew what I was hearing and sort of not so much researching. There's a lot of stuff we got were like tapes of these experiments. So it's not just like I'm reading a report. You're hearing it. So I'm hearing, you know, these channeling sessions. I'm hearing these experiments he's doing an electron.

And, you know, you can just tell something's going on, something's strange. And so you're right. I mean, I think like if that was happening in 60, 61, 62, I mean, I don't know. And this gets transitions into the Uri-Gellar stuff, which I believe is very much involved in that same sort of research. How so? Well, I think it's my belief that Geller was sort of like a mind-control guinea pig in a way.

There's a lot of. that would prove that that was what his sort of role was in this whole We explain that story. That's fascinating. Well, he, so basically Pujaharach in the six years, so we had Intellectron, and the thing is, too, with this device he invented the TD 100, it was called, which was called Transdermal 100. But, again, this was supposed to be this breakthrough, you know, medical device, where people, who are deaf can hear, you know, think about what we could do with this, but it just goes, like, again, he never talks about it. No one in his family, oh, yeah, I wonder what ever happened to that.

Like, you would think that with such an amazing discovery, like, something would have come of it. He was just, like, went dark, basically, probably around 68. He never talks about it. Again, only way later in his life. He never, ever talks about it. Of course, we learned he was using it with the space kids years later that nobody knew about that. So he's coming off the tail end of all the Inelectron stuff, right? Right when he meets Geller, like literally, it was 1970, is when he first hears about Geller, goes to Israel. Intellectron is still happening then.

I mean, from what I understand, like, it was still very much, you know, an operating company. So he's going to Israel to meet Erie Geller while he's still very much involved in the research of essentially sending messages to people. And he gets to Israel, he discovers Uri Geller. I mean, I think a lot of people know this story, but, you know, Geller was allegedly this very amazing psychic guy who could bend spoons with his mind and read people's minds and do all sorts of things like that.

He could, like, hover his hand over a watch, and the hands would move and all these kinds of things. And so do you believe he could actually do those things or do you think that was stage magic or? All I can say about that is he did bend a spoon for us when we did the interview and I don't know how we did it. Whoa. So that's all I can say. It could have been a trick. And you. But I can't to this day figure out how we did it.

You know the easy debunks on things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all I can say is like, yeah, it could have been a trick. Yeah.

But it was definitely kind of strange. and he did do it. But he, so Paharach, you know, again, the story goes. Pujarach was kind of smitten with Geller and oh my God, this guy's, you know, an amazing psychic. I'm interested in psychic phenomena. I want to study him. So he brings him back. But what people don't really know, unless they read Pujaraj's book on Erie Geller, which is kind of like a rare book to come across. But he has this whole episode in Israel before he even brings him. him back to the United States where he basically hypnotizes Geller and, you know, the nine come through. Really?

And all of a sudden, after however many years, you know, 53 from when Dr. Vana did it to 71, and guess what happens? He starts channeling the nine, Erie Geller. And so Buharich is, you know, apparently shocked and, you know, I can't believe this is happening. You know, there's all these tape recordings we have of this going down. And that kind of kickstarts again, the whole nine thing comes back into the picture through Uri Geller. And all of a sudden, they're like back, you know, and he's channeling them, channeling them, and he's communicating with them. But it's very strange because Pujaric, as I just said, was still very much involved in the Intellectron Company, which, as we know, was experiencing.

with being able to send voices, send thoughts to people. And so one could assume that Uri Geller was a, you know, experiment in that way when the nine just so happened to reappear all those years later. And it's also strange because I think a lot of people know, like Geller has claimed his involvement with Mossad and his Israeli intelligence and all these things. There's reasons to believe Pujaharich may have been a double agent for Israel. In fact, he says it. He says it. Really? But he kind of says it in a joky way. And so I had always just stuck to me like, okay, is this a joke? Have you found any connections between him?

Yeah. What were the connections? Besides, you're a yeller, obviously. Well, he, so we did tons of like FOIA requests trying to find. on him and basically got nothing, but the only thing we were able to get was this big chunk of FBI documents, which was basically monitoring all of his movements in Israel, literally page after page. He just got here, he's leaving, he picked this bag up, he did, you know, in the exact years he's going there to see Geller.

So there's that. And then multiple people who knew him, who never really said anything until much later in their lives told me that he was massad. Again, I don't have a document or something that proves this. And then Pujarach also mentions in a letter he was writing to, there's a good friend of his, this woman who kind of helped him with bookkeeping and stuff. And she was like his closest confidon. And he would write these letters to her all the time.

was very clear that they were close. You know, he spoke with her very differently than other people, but he basically admitted to being part of a Israeli U.S. mind control program that was happening at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which is an Army base. And I read that. And, you know, again, what do you make of it? it's either true or for some reason he's making it up.

I don't know why. It's fascinating. So he wrote that. And then in this tape, he kind of jokingly says, oh, I'm a double agent for the Israelis. And he also was always there. You know, that's the other thing. Like, yes, he went to investigate Geller. But, you know, he was even through the 80s, like well after him and Geller kind of parted ways.

He's always going there. on a lot of the channeling tapes that are happening in the 70s with the space kids. He's referring by name to Israeli generals. This one guy, Aharon Yarev, who was, I think the head of Army intelligence. You can look him up. I mean, he was constantly, should we give this information to Yarev, always referring to him and other people high up there? So a lot of red flags, nothing, again, no concrete, you know, document or something, but it's strange.

And I don't know. I mean, again, that's something like after all this time, I'm still thinking, okay, what was really going on there, you know? Fascinating, man. What do you think when he goes to Israel initially to see Geller in 1971 and he, Gellar's kind of channeling the nine again. Is it like the nine are somehow, like he has a protocol to like summon these specific nine extraterrestrial beings? Is it this cynical, hypnotic technique that he's doing

where he's implanting this idea of nine extraterrestrial beings? Or what do you think that is? Is he calling in something that exists in reality, these nine, you know, entities? Or is he creating those entities? synthetically. First of all, just to quickly mention, like, this idea that Buharach is very, there's always two stories, right? So when he went to Israel for the first time, in some lecture we have, he said, oh, you know, there was this parapsychology foundation, and they wanted me

to go, so they scraped some money together, and I was able to get a plane ticket, I went to, I went to Tel Aviv, and that's how I got there, right? And then Geller himself, said, oh, yeah, no, he was sent by the CIA, like, directly. He was consulting for CIA. That's why he came. And then someone else close to Biharach said, oh, yeah, like that he was CIA, that's why he went. But in this lecture, in fact, twice in two separate lectures, Buharach, when he kind of tells the story to an audience, you know. And he says, oh, yeah, they just, you know, bought me a ticket at this foundation.

So, you know, again, a little thought in my mind where I'm like, okay, who's telling the truth, you know. Yeah. I think it's obvious. But with the nine, I mean, so yeah, it all did come from hypnosis. That was the protocol. It was a very, you know, your typical countdown from a certain number. Once you get there, you know, you're in a state where they can come through. And I do think, again, like I mentioned earlier, kind of having to accept some of these darker parts of the story.

like I do think to some extent like he was implanting this idea because you can, I mean, you can hear it. I mean, again, this isn't like speculation. Like on the tapes, you can very much hear him saying, you know, is it the not, you know, the type of like leading questions. I think that a lot of people say, oh, you know, you can't trust a hypnosis if they're doing this. And it was, it was that. It was very leading questions. And are you sure it's, it's not the nine and oh, actually, yeah, you're right, it is, and that kind of thing. But what's so confusing is there's a lot of other sessions you did where it was like, not like that at all, the complete opposite, you know, not leading at all. And the nine would still come through. Yeah.

So that's interesting. Yeah. And that always goes back to the crux of Hujaharach of like, okay, what was yes, he believed in this stuff, but yes, he was also involved in, very, by his own admittance, you know, involved in MK Ultra and all these things. So it's like what? Believer, master manipulator. I mean, I usually, clearly he was manipulative somewhat.

Yeah. I usually get to the end of these questions thinking it's like a yes and, like an improv or whatever. It's usually not like one neat solution kind of explains everything away. Yeah. You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be, you could think of the Archimedes lever of reality itself and its mind control, right? Like that would explain.

like aliens reverse engineer like so many things um but then you you get into like the facts and the facts are just weirder than you think often and it's it's like well i actually think there might be these other beings that come in and certain cases he's not asking leading questions yeah but it's it's fascinating he also he isolates specific um extra low frequency waves that he thinks are particularly powerful as far as implanting thoughts is that right? Right. Yeah, there's, and again, this was interesting because his research into, you know, ELF, extremely low frequency, you know, that was much later, like late 70s, 80s, he was very involved in that. But I figured out, like, once again, like this origin point of the Roundtable Foundation, like, he was researching this stuff back then, like this very specific, extremely low frequency that can, he figured out. like penetrate the walls of a Faraday cage. That was like the only, you know, frequency that could do that.

You know, they went on to use that frequency with like submarine experiments. So that he believed was like the frequency that could carry, you know, audio information to somebody's head. And he was very concerned that the Soviets had similar capabilities. Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, Project Pandora, which, started in I think the 60s, which, you know, going back to Intellectron, that was right around the time this was happening, which was, you know, yeah, the same thing, the Russians had these

sort of radio frequency weapons, which, which, you know, they did. I mean, that's all proven at that time. I mean, this is like pre-Havana syndrome stuff. And so coincidentally, you know, at Intellectron, they're doing a lot of that same stuff. I do firmly believe that that Geller was some sort of guinea pig for these experiments because it's just too many weird red flags around this time that he meets him. And I think, and again, I could be totally wrong, but I think that there was just this, you know, we need to experiment on a real, you know, human being with some of this stuff. And again, it goes back to this MK Ultra, the, you know, LSD, you know, giving LSD to unwitting people. Like at a certain point with these kinds of experiments, you need to, you know,

do it on a real person or else you're never going to know how someone in, you know, the real world will react. And I think Geller, you know, was part of something like this because there's a lot of experiments they did where there's a story, for instance, where Geller allegedly teleported. So he was walking down the street in New York City. 1973, I think. He claims he's walked down the street in New York City, gets a weird feeling, right? All of a sudden he wakes up and he's in Austin, in New York, which is, you know, however, 50 miles or whatever. And he crashes through the screen porch. There's footage, Super 8 movie footage of Pujar's filming the screen porch after this allegedly happened. It's all smashed through, right? and Geller allegedly winds up in Osnay, he teleported, and from New York City, and Pujarach claims or told Geller,

oh yeah, this happened and the nine did this. Basically, since you were questioning their ability and their power, they said, well, we're going to do something that will make you, you know, never question us again. And they did this teleportation, right? And the weird thing is, again, like the length Pujaharach went to actually get a, you know, again, people don't remember this was like 70s. Like, get a load of film, you know, put it in the camera, film, get the film transferred and be like, hey, look, I actually film when you, right after you flew into the window. And here it is, it's proof. So, you know, he's doing that.

But that was just one instance of me thinking, like, okay, like this is a way to get somebody to believe that some crazy event like that really happened. And Geller believed it. I mean, he talks about it, he wrote about it. And I think later in his life, he started to question everything. And he even came out with a statement on a radio show in, like, 2019, saying that Buharich had, experimented on him with with mushrooms and had experimented extensively with him uh with with hypnosis but again like that story is crazy and he and i think it's like okay like if you can get somebody to believe that

they had been teleported and sma i mean what else could you get someone to believe and i just think it was all part of that type of experimentation in bouch himself way later in his life like i said when he starts to kind of reveal things. He says himself, I was involved in a program, and my boss was the guy who did all research with hypnosis and mind manipulation. So, you know, he was doing it, and I think a lot of the Geller stuff was just like, okay, we need a guinea pig here to see if some of these wild ideas work, you know? So wild. I think there's a story, too, that Geller tells around him meeting Werner von Braun and Werner von Braun taking him to a safe that contained some UFO artifacts, maybe from Roswell. Yeah, well, Werner von Braun again, was somebody close to Buharach in the 60s specifically.

Really? Yeah, his assistant, the same one I told you about who made the JFK comment said, yeah, he talked to him all the time. What? So that was yet another person who was just kind of part of his, you know, rolodex. But yeah, I think Geller said something effective. Yeah, he showed him some photographs of, yeah, something from Roswell or revealed facts to him. And I think he showed him material. And I think he felt like he had a telepathic connection with the material.

Werner von Braun takes me into his personal office. There is a safe in the office. He opens a safe. I see a piece of metal. I've never seen such a color. Pulls it out. It's not heavy. He says, Uri, touch this.

Tell me what you feel now. I put my hand on it and I say, Verna, this is not from here. He says, you're right. This is a piece of a UFO that crashed on our planet. It's like he knew that it was not from here or something. Like he showed it to him and he goes, it's not from here. And he goes, how did you know? So it's so interesting.

The other thing, too, and this goes back to the controllers book, a lot of the stories. And again, keep in mind, this is all pre-coming to the U.S. going to SRI. everyone knows that stuff. This is in Tel Aviv before any of that. And he, another story like this teleportation one, they're in the Sinai Desert. They're driving around in a Jeep. And they see a UFO.

And Geller, all of a sudden, I mean, Pujarach's book on Geller is fun to read, you know, in and of itself, just because it's like, it's just like a cool crazy, sci-fi book, if anything, even though it's supposed to be, you know, nonfiction. But he claims that this UFO lands, Geller goes into like a trance, boards the UFO, comes back with like a pen and said, or something like a pen and basically said, you know, oh, these these beings told me to keep this, because this will forever be proof that I, you know, went on this craft. But the same thing,

it's always like, oh, he's in a trance before this happens, you know, apparently. And then it's that same idea of like, he believed it. And Puharach kind of substantiated, oh, yeah, you know, we saw it land and we saw you walk on it. And what? But then it always goes to that question, like, why, again, you could just say, oh, well, they wanted to experiment with, can you get someone to believe in? Or just kind of framing it around this ET UFO thing. But it's always like, why, why? Why? Why? do this, you know, why, why was he doing this? Yeah. You know, I don't, because again, there's no concrete proof, oh,

Geller was a guinea pig. He was, he was a subject. Like, I'm just kind of putting the pieces together, but it just seems to me that it's like, let's take this UFO ET framework and do these kind of mind manipulation experiments around that. Yeah. And see, you know, see what people can believe.

and uh you also get in a weird territory where it's like it does again the mk ultra thing just explain everything which is like such a dark version of the truth but it's possible we have to entertain that yeah or is mk ultra actually converging on a technique that the you know extraterrestrials or n h i non-human intelligence already has mastery over vis-a-vis its ability to like manipulate human beings. Like I think of one of the most credible cases for me is a guy named Mario Woods, who is at Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977 in South Dakota, and he was a missile security officer. And he's just like a really upright, great guy. And he thought, you know, like this sort of like B2 bomber was like kind of winking at him in the distance. He and his, you know, a teammate or whatever,

his colleague Michael Johnson go in this little Jeep and they follow it. They get there and it's this huge like plasma orb that's glowing. It's red hot. And it, uh, it's the size of a Walmart is the line he always says. It's sort of this crazy, iconic line, you know, and, um, and, uh, he ends up nine being transported nine miles, um, away from the base, uh, like behind a dam. And it's like, it's the next morning. He has no idea what happened. And all he, I think, had remembered was beings walking toward him saying, do not fear, do not fear. And then he gets a hypnotic regression, and he realizes that, you know, possibly he boarded a craft. And what's really interesting is he says that after, when he gets sort of, you know, debriefed, they check his teeth. I think he said that,

like, the guy checking him now said that there was some sort of ambient radiation in his mouth or something from that time. It's really sort of crazy. Yeah, that is, the tooth thing is really strange, and there's a lot online about, there's a story about an individual who changed his name, in fact, because he didn't want to be associated with this, but this was, so post-Gellar, right? So, So Geller, basically, they kind of split up, Geller wants to move on. And again, way later in this 2019 interview, he kind of opens up. And so, yeah, I was kind of like afraid, you know, and he really opens up. Like, I didn't know what was kind of going on.

And I was suspicious. And I just wanted to get away basically from this guy. And so he, you know, but he was famous at that time anyways. So he leaves, Pujarach is, you know, trying to find another. subject to bring through the nine, he claims. So this is even pre-Phillis Schlemer, is right around because Phyllis Schlemer was sort of the next channel that he discovers that brings through the nine. But before Phyllis, there was this guy in Florida where Phyllis was from. She knew this guy. He was part of a psychic class that she taught. And again, I've heard from a lot of people that this

woman Phyllis was like a legit psychic, you know, knowing things about people and so forth. But there's this guy that she knew. She introduces him to Pujarach. They do a bunch of experiments. Yeah, sure enough, he put some, he hypnotizes him. And he is communicating with not the nine, but it was some other being. I can't remember the name. But anyways, this guy says, you know, I got really, really weird vibes, you know, etc.

But lo and behold, he wakes up when he realizes he has a metal filling that he never had. And he goes to the dentist and says, you know, what's going on here? I didn't get this done. And they looked at it. They said, yeah, this was done professionally. There's no question about it. And, oh, complete side note, the guy that Pujarich ran Intellectron, with was a dentist. What?

That he met in the army. So this guy discovers a, um, a filling he never had. He completely freaks out and, and leaves the, the group that is Puharach, Phyllis. And, and it's sad. And again, this always comes back to this, like, not avoiding the, the negative stuff. Like, apparently the guy went like, you know, crazy. He just had, like, a mental breakdown. There's a couple other people in the, the sphere of this story that,

this happened to. But that's like a real story. And the guy, you know, and he brought it up to Buharich, and they said, oh, you know, we don't know what you're talking about. We weren't involved with this. Or I think, you know, actually, I think what they said was, oh, you know, this was done by the beings your talk. They wanted this to happen and they, they did this somehow. And so it's very bizarre, you know. But that goes back to the, I mean, what you just told me is crazy because this was early 70s. So there might be something going on with this, this two thing. And, you know, again, I think the film does a good job of this, or I hope it does, is, you know, I don't believe or especially don't want to believe that MK Ultra is responsible for everything and all of this stuff.

Because there's a couple stories in Boerich's life that, you know, do seem like legitimate sort of extraordinary encounters, for instance, in the late 80s, Pujarish lived in North Carolina, and there was a story that a bunch of his family was visiting, a bunch of his cousins, and people who, you know, are very skeptical about all of this stuff, skeptical of Pujarach's whole world, but some psychic that night or that day said later tonight, you know, I just got a message that like a UFO is going to show itself over the house. And so we have the video, Pujarach's son, Andy, who's an awesome guy. He did this kind of like funny video where he interviewed, like, all the people who were there at this family gathering and said, you know, what do you think is going to happen?

Do you think it's going to show up? And everyone said, oh, yes or no. But that night, multiple people saw this huge UFO. And Andy tells the story, and he, like, he got to, emotional telling it. And he's again, a totally sane guy. You know, of course, his dad was Andre Pujarach, but like he's, he's very normal seeing that. He said, yeah, of course, you know, the camera wasn't out because it was much later in the night. And again, pre-i iPhone, of course, you know, you got to run in and grab this bulky VHS camcorder. But apparently, like him,

that Pugarge's son and two or three of the cousins all saw this huge thing is silently hovered over. So wild. And that and and his son again very emotionally says like that was the moment. I said, okay, like I, I believe in this stuff. And I believe in, and in things my dad did. And he just had a very emotional reaction, uh, to that moment. So it's stories like that where I go, okay, well, you know, what, Puj is in running some MK Ultra experiment on his family, you know, decades after all this stuff. So, So, yeah, I don't want to put this idea out there that, you know, I think that way. I mean, again, it's just there's too many red flags in his story that point to his involvement.

But then there's that story where even his cousin who didn't want to be interviewed or whatever, but I did talk to him. And he was like, yeah, that happened, you know. Well, I think there's something, it's like everybody sees the world through a perceptual prism or container. And I'm sure with his hypnotic techniques and with MK Ultra and with implants and all these things, you can break that container and then probably intentionally shade or manipulate what people experience. Yeah. But the idea that there's nothing outside of that perceptual prism that involves other entities between man and God or, you know, whatever your metaphysical beliefs are, I think also involves some sort of hubris. Like, you know, you can, you can have both. But it's yeah this is I mean

This is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done man This is crazy I mean I'm I feel like shocked like listening to all of these facts And I'm just thinking as you're talking about Pujarge's son and this UFO showing up What was night because I think of 1952 as that you know DC flyover Washington invasion like maybe the most Intense UFO showing in United States history as far as mass media covering it, people seeing things. You know, I actually recently met a witness from 1952,

and he was pretty amazing, and he remembers it and stuff. He's one of the probably last living witnesses. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. But do you think that had anything to do with the seance? Because I think of the seance with, you know, the original channeling of the nine. It was 52.

Do you know what month? It was, it was New Year's Eve. Okay. Well, I mean, it was before then because, so the, again, I don't want to engage in any sort of, you know, selection bias here. But July, 1952 was when the thing showed up. But a lot of that early channeling with Vennard, that was all, you know, 52. Interesting. Yeah.

Into 53. I mean, it could have been, and I told you, like, he wrote in his journals about these orbs, and one of the psychics would say, you know, go outside tonight. You're going to see an orbs. I don't know. Well, every time I want to get away from, like, the occult having to do with UFOs, it's like, it's just so obviously does have everything to do. And there's even a group called the Borderland Society, which was... Oh, Borderland.

Well, which one? The Borderlands Research. Yeah. The Harch was very involved in that. In fact, a lot of the recordings we have, not a lot, but some of them came from them. They were really, they were, they had a bunch of stuff saved, actually. So there's a really amazing, like, kind of nuts and bolts UFO researcher. who I think did some software stuff for SpaceX.

His name is Richard Gelderick. And he has uncovered like a couple of UFO, either crashes or appearances where the Borderland Society knew about these UFO appearances before the military did, before the Army, before the Air Force. So, and then you have, you know, this 1933 Magenta crash, which it seems like is getting increasingly corroborated. David Grush, Harold Malmgren, both talk about it. and Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton were there and, you know,

maybe there's some occult stuff going on there. Yeah. With the Knights of Malta, right? You know, who knows? But you know, Pujaroz was a master Mason. He was. Yeah. Interesting.

And he tells his story in a lecture much later in his life about how he was always approached by these, you know, what he would call kind of dark. occult groups and societies and people trying to like get him to join and he he didn't want anything to do with it and that kind of thing well Werner von Braun was also I believe a freemason and he had gone through all these weird neo pagan rituals as part of the German space program he was also close with Walt Disney and I think they made a little movie together and there's some free Masonic symbolism there there's launch pad 33 in real life that he sort of created and And my buddy Danny Jones just did an interview with one of the last living Apollo astronauts, Charlie Duke, and the number one moon landing hoaxer person, Bart Sebrel.

And Danny on the phone with me is like, dude, I'm not sure that the early astronauts weren't M.K. Ultrad. And it's weird, you know, and it's like you have, you know, a picture of Jolly West on the set of 2001 Space Odyssey. You have, you know, this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I did hear about that. Yeah. Yeah. And so...

That's insane. It is insane. It is insane. And then you have these, you know, it's like Neil Armstrong looking like, you know, he's in a hostage video. Joe Rogan describes it like that, you know, after he comes back from the moon. And so you have to wonder if there's some sort of, like, weird, you know, and if Poo-Haw, I didn't know Poo-Hard, you knew Warner Von Braun. You have the... One of the M.K. Ultra architects.

in touch with the head of the American space part. It's weird. Well, the other thing, too, with the NASA connection with Pujarach is, again, in the 60s, he was doing, like, a ton of, like, contract work for all sorts of different agencies. But so this is actually in newspaper articles we found, but they were doing, like, telepathy experiments with astronauts. And Pujarach claims this. I've never heard it. We don't have the tape. but he claims that they, before they went to the moon, right, they didn't know the surface of the moon what it would be like, really. So they were saying, okay, how can we land a craft?

Could it be hot? Is it cold? Is it a spike, whatever? So he claims that they sent remote viewers to the moon to get a picture of like what it would be like so they would feel comfortable with, like sending whatever, you know, if they went to send stuff there. And he says, yeah, you know, somewhere in the NASA archives, I'm sure there's the tapes we did where we recorded this psychic kind of remote viewing the moon.

And he had the contracts of NASA. Like, we have one that doesn't say that, but he clearly, you know, worked with them. We have, we have documentation of that. Didn't NASA also have a camp around with space children? or whatever, psychic. Yeah, I've heard a lot about that. But I don't know much about that. I mean, I know about, obviously, Pujarich is,

we can get into that. But yeah, I've heard a lot about that that they're in the late 60s. There's somewhere in Florida. There's like a NASA thing with kids. I honestly, I don't know. I think Gordon Cooper might talk about that. Oh, dude, Gordon Cooper was very involved with Buharach. So this is one of the, this is the guy who spent longer

in the Earth's orbit, you know, in space than anyone prior to him in the late 50s. Yeah. He went to awesoning like many times. And in his book, he writes about going there, seeing experiments with the Faraday Cage, seeing the space kids. Yeah. Why was he so interested? I mean, why was a NASA astronaut interested in psychic research?

I don't know. I mean, well, I think Cooper, Gordon Cooper. or, I mean, didn't he have some UFO stories or experiences, or at least he was open to talking about that stuff? We had some kind of craft flying overhead, had pretty good out of the tide, flying the same kind of formation we fly in our fighters. Were they planes?

I mean, what? Well, it turns out they didn't have wings. They were saucer shape, and we never could get as high or as fast as they were, so it really positivity. identify them, but they were metallic-lucking and saucer in shape. So he was definitely, like, interested in this stuff. And, yeah, so he went up there.

Everyone went up there. I mean, the whole Gene Roddenberry thing is crazy. Yeah, so the creator of Star Trek. Yeah, so that's, like, something I read about. And, you know, I thought, oh, that's interesting. But in Pujarach's archive, sure enough, is the tape that no one's ever heard of this session that is kind of like crazy to be in possession of. But basically, they would do these kind of roundtable-esque channelings

where like back then, these prominent people at the time where now in mid-70s would come there, spend time there, and they would do these sessions. And Gene Roddenberry went up a lot. And he makes mention on this one tape recording that, like, you know, he says, like, like I've seen, said many times in the past, which would indicate that this wasn't the first time he was a part of like a channeling session with them. But yeah, we have the tape where it was Roddenberry,

Pujarich, and Phyllis Schlemmer was the channel, the channeler. And, you know, he does his thing. He hypnotically regresses her. She goes into a trance. She starts channeling the nine and Roddenberry is there and it's like an hour or two hours of him asking questions about. And that becomes the plot of Star Trek? Well, I wouldn't say the plot because Star Trek had started. I think people think of Deep Space Nine, which that came out post these sessions. And that, you know, of course, nine. And then there's a character in Deep Space Nine who's called Vanad, just like the early Nine channeler.

So there's no question like that. That's connected. And they actually wrote, I have it. it and I don't know what will ever come of it. It's a long story, but Gene Roddenberry wrote a script called The Nine, and it's all about he changed the names and locations, and the whole premise is his experience of working with Pujarich and Phyllis channeling the Nine. And we have an original copy of it, and it's like amazing.

And from what we understand, like, Roddenberry at the time was going through a lot, with like, I guess he was like drinking a lot. And I don't know all the specifics, but it just like, it, you know, as stuff in the, in the movie industry does, it fell apart or whatever. And it never happened. But he was moved enough to write a whole, you know, 130 page script about, about his experience. And it's called the nine. So trippy.

Yeah. And you have. So we should make it, maybe. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. You have a hit Greg up if you're interested. Yeah. I mean, you also, you know, think about the Star Trek, you take with the, you know, the Galactic Federation.

Yeah. That's mentioned in a couple of real world contexts, too, one of which being, you have Hymeeshid, who, you know, has won multiple. The highest, you know, national security awards in Israel is basically the founder of their space program and their equivalent of space four. and was, I think, head of it for decades. Yeah. And he just writes this autobiography where he talks about the Galactic Federation. Yeah. And so do you think there's something like more real going on that in that like the heads of various nation state space programs are aware of here?

Perhaps. Does he mention anything about the nine, too? Who? Eshed. No, I know. I thought maybe he did. Okay. Not specifically.

Okay. But the other weird connection to Israel, Pujaharach, everything, was he was close with Itzak Bentov. Oh, yeah. Who's, you know, a really interesting guy. There's some videos on YouTube with him. He's kind of like the Israeli Pujahirich. He kind of looks like him, and, you know, they have the same vibe going on. But they were good friends.

I don't know the specifics of how they met. Apparently, Bent off was, you know, interesting. instrumental in hooking up Pujaharach with Geller. I don't know the truth to that. But, well, they definitely knew each other because there's photographs of Geller, Pujarach, and Bentov in an apartment in Tel Aviv together. But, you know, Bentov is interesting because he worked for Israeli intelligence. I mean, that's a fact. And Pujarach was, again, like I said, going to Israel a lot at that time. And he was always tape record. their conversations, like him and Benthoff would sit around, like you and I are right now, and they would record all their conversations, which, you know, is not weird necessarily, but also, you know, why would you do that and then save the cassette tapes decades later? So, you know, there's a lot of clues like that that goes back to that Israeli connection, and Bentoff was one of a number of scientists who were... being tracked at, you know, Pujarach's house burned in 1978. To this day, no one really knows who did it, but it was a proven, you know, arson job by the fire department. And Benthoff, around that time, was also being monitored. Pujarach was being monitored, and there's this big, like, this circle of kind of his friends and colleagues were all claiming to be monitored, be followed,

harassed and so forth. And there was some story connecting a possible Israeli connection to this 1978 fire. But yeah, that's a big, big question mark. And Bentov died in a plane crash. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Sort of super mysteriously.

He was friends with a lot of the Stanford Research Institute and early psychic, you know, research pioneer. and claim to have this kind of theory of everything. He writes a book called Stalking the Wild Pendulum where individual consciousness is kind of a pinched node of some larger fabric of consciousness or something. And a fascinating guy. Yeah, they were close.

Like I said, there's a couple tapes of them just like literally talking and they would just record it and they would talk about all sorts of things, mostly, you know, their shared interest and in consciousness and stuff. But, you know, there's this other theory that Buharach could have not been a double agent and simply just a spy and going to kind of pick off information or, hey, where buddies were into the same stuff, we should tape record our conversation. Like he was CIA and bent up was Mossad or something. Yeah. Yeah.

But all I know is that stuff exists and you can put it together how you want. But, you know, I've told a lot of people. And again, it's not because I sort of fear for, you know, anything, but we really done, maybe it's deliberate. Maybe we're not supposed to have found anything, but we don't have any sort of like legitimate document or anything that really nail. And I think that's what's interesting about the film

and the story in general is like you still question, there's still research to be done into this because we don't have the definitive answer of what's going on. We just have all this, all these strange breadcrumbs over several decades that would point to I think the most interesting

you know pieces of media or journalism but get more questions often than answers especially if you're cutting to you know the deeper architectures of reality and I often think you should be this kind of skeptical or distrust you know people who are like they're so sure it's just X or it's just Y you know

and in this case it's clearly this kind of murky subject. But that, I mean, that makes it so fascinating, right? It makes you just want to go deeper and, uh, yeah. Um, I think that the sign too of the whole Geller thing being, like I mentioned earlier, like him being involved, maybe willingly in these kinds of experiments, you know, but he, he, um, yeah, he really opened up. I mean, anyone can hear it. Uh, I don't, well, maybe it's been taking it down, but it was this radio interview from 2019 and he, he, he, he, he, was very open about, you know, I was, I was scared. Um, and he always uses the term like Bougarge made me believe this. He made, you know, and he, and he does credit Bouchard's says,

look, you know, I, I, I love the guy. He helped me, he helped me get to the, to America. Um, so it's not like he's, he hates him or he speak, but he's very clear, like, you know, at that period, like I was, I was, uh, concerned about what was going on. He mentions being pretty sure that Buharach had slipped him the mushrooms. So, you know, there's that. I mean, I don't think he's making that up. No. I think it was like all these years later, I think he wanted to come clean or about,

about like, what he really experiences the vibe that I got from. He's a wild character. He has a very flamboyant online personality. He'll often make these videos directed at, world leaders. Yeah. Trump, don't push that button or Putin, stand down or whatever. You know, I know what's going to happen.

And he'll, like, predict the wild things happening. And, um, well, he was doing that in the 70s. He was. Like, like, like, again, these, this, this idea that you could use this directed thought to, to change somebody's, uh, opinion or change somebody's, uh, direction or, And he talks a lot about doing that back then. I have a friend who worked at the Princeton Parapsychology Lab, and whenever I try to throw the kitchen sink of skepticism around,

like he's just a stage magician and he's, you know, I don't know how legit he is. He often said, you know, and I think they even have like some papers where they studied him at Princeton. And I think it's often, again, like these people have something that's a little anomalous going on. I agree. it up, you know. Yeah, I, that's really actually my, again, with everything I said prior to him potentially

being the sort of subject, but no, I actually firmly believe that he was one of probably, you know, a lot of people out there, yeah, who have something. And again, it's just like, can you turn it on every time? Can you, can you perform at every instant someone asks you? I mean, no, I'm not a slight, I mean, I don't, I don't know, but I would assume, like, you can't do it 100% of the time. Maybe you can do it 60% of the time. Yeah. But I think that about him, because I've heard enough stories through all these people I've talked to and stuff who were like, yeah, he had something, you know.

I think he liked the idea of the showmanship. But yeah, he definitely had something going on. Speaking of people with gifted, you know, psychic abilities, who are the space kids? The space kids are, well, there's a lot of them, and we only were able to, track down and interview one, two, three, five of them. But basically, when Geller was kind of blowing up, this was like mid-70s, early mid-70s, apparently the story goes that these kids all over the world, specifically in the United States and the UK and in China, which are just the stories that we were able to kind of, look into, but these kids would see Geller on TV, and all of a sudden, like, that would, uh, cause

them to just spontaneously, like, do something psychic, like, they would, they would pick up a spoon, it would bend. Or they would, you know, go into the room and the, the, the, the drawers would, you know, poltergeist stuff, right? And there's a ton of newspaper articles at this time, which again, like, okay, it could have all been a hoax, whatever, but, you know, it's like parents calling in the TV station, you know, Pujarach claims like saying, what the hell is going on here? You know, my kid just did this. My kid just bent a spoon. My kid just, you know, touched the refrigerator and it's short-circuited, you know, all sorts of stuff. And apparently it was because they saw him on TV and something happened, something clicked, and they, there's something

psychic abilities just kind of like came out in that moment. It's like a contagion of the psychic powers. Yeah. So that's apparently what was happening. And so Puharaj, of course, you know, learns this and he's very intrigued. So he starts to, you know, visit some of these cases of kids who are doing this. And eventually, I guess, is so, eventually he's so convinced that this is real. and that these kids actually have this sort of like sudden emergence of ability that he brings them.

Well, again, a lot of people have this idea. There's a lot online about how he like collected all these kids, almost like an X-Men kind of thing, which is partially true, but mostly like he would lecture and, you know, all over the country and Canada and places. And people, and we say kids, we're talking like teen, you know, early. apparently there were like some very young you know five four five six year old kids but the ones that we're dealing with in the film are all you know in their early 20s maybe 18 youngest but they would see him at a at a lecture and they would they would approach him and say hey you know we got to talk like i have i have these abilities and you are obviously the guy who knows about this and and i need your

help basically, like they would kind of go to him. So at that point, he thought, okay, there's enough stories and enough of these kids coming to me that, like, I should start a research program. And so that's when he sort of collects, like, a large group of kids. I think it was like, again, online, there's all sorts of stories, but it was really only, like, maybe like a dozen kids, I think, give or take, but he kind of invites them to Aosening. where he's, you know, living and starts this sort of camp where basically they are just doing psychic research on these kids. And I think, again, not unlike the earlier Vinod roundtable stuff, like a lot of conspiracy stuff pops up at this moment too because of the general nature of

kids showing up at the house of a, you know, known intelligence, uh, connected, scientists, et cetera, and so forth. But, um, basically he collected them and, um, just started this camp or they did, you know, kind of went through the different abilities, tested them, and, and that all led to getting back to the nine, because a lot of these kids claimed they had some sort of encounter or, you know, UFO experience. And so Buhar said, okay, kind of like group them, okay, all the kids who've had an experience here, you know, not. And so all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them.

And allegedly, the nine would come through, even through these kids, who most of which never knew about the nine. And most of which were kids who, like, you hear a lot with these experiencers, who, like, they didn't want to talk about it. You know, they didn't want, you know, fame, or they were just like, I'm actually scared and I want to know what's going on with myself. You know, they weren't trying to, like, you know,

do anything more than, like, can you help me figure out what's going on? After you've looked at this for 10-plus years, do you think that the nine coming through these different experiencers, abductees, people who've seen UFOs, represent something real that's sort of, you know, non-human or extraterrestrial coming through these people, or do you think that these were sort of synthetically implanted or kind of manipulated by Pujaharich?

I think it's, I don't want to say synthetically created. I think what was going on at this time, and this is, we're talking 74, when this started, 73, 74. And keep in mind, this is right around the time the SRI remote viewing stuff starts. Yeah. And keep in mind Hal Putoff tells us that he went to Pujarach's house and Ossining, heard all about the nine,

and that Buharach was apparently communicating with this thing called the nine. Wild. And then didn't really say much. Has Hal Putoff never talked about this? No. I mean, in the film he does. I got to ask him. But he basically just tells a story about, well, quite frankly, he was quite closed off when it came to the subject of all this, Pujarach.

So I don't know. I wasn't there at the interview. Someone else did it. I mean, it was great he did it. But he basically was like Pujarach was more connected than anyone ever knew. Really? He sort of alludes to that. But he does say, yeah, we went up to his house.

There's footage of him and Targ at Ossining sitting. on the front steps. So my theory is that, and people have talked about this and it's out there, but I think that there is this sort of, and we know for a fact that Buharach was part of the SRI program, a lot of people put off himself say, no, he wasn't, he just simply Brock Geller and that was it, he disappeared. Not true. There's a pay stub in Buharich's archives that is a, is from SRI to Lab 9. Hujarach's lab from 73. Whoa. We brought it up to put off.

He said, oh, I don't, who knows, it could it just, it's whatever. It's nothing, basically. But to me, that, that proves he was connected. Because I think the story most people read is just like, he brought Geller, dropped him off there and was just like, you know, have fun, basically. But I think that Pujarach's house, which was now called Lab 9, which, again, like Intellectron, and a couple others he had, which are, no use getting into, but he just had these sort of like front companies, which I just think it's obvious, you know. So at this time, he had Lab 9. And I think that Lab 9 was doing SRI research, you know, on children, because essentially a lot of the tapes are remote viewing. There's no other way

to look at it. It's, okay, what's going on in this location? What time is this, such and such general going to be at this place, when should we go here? And it was actually, speaking of Adam Curry, I think it was actually Adam who brought up this idea that, you know, a lot of people who go into a trance or hypnosis, you know, there's a protocol, right?

It's either like a pendulum or whatever it is, a countdown. And I think the nine and something, somehow like this we're going to connect with the nine thing was like a way that these it was an in if that makes sense for some of these kids to to sort of want to participate because again it goes back to if you really want to test like a kids a real you know 20 year old person is a 20 year old a better psychic than an 80 year old you know eventually you're going to have to find a 20-year-old and do an experiment with them. And I think what was happening was like if you go to a 20-year-old

and say, hey, you know, especially at the time with Erie Geller being famous, you know, whatever, Star Wars, this and that, and you say, hey, you know, do you want to be a part of an experiment where you can communicate with these, you know, these beings and, you know, I can put you in it's safe and I can put you in this hypnotic state and you'll communicate with them. Like, obviously, you would say, oh, that's, okay, that's interesting, that's cool. You're not going to say, hey, do you want to come be a part of a covert, you know, mind control experience? You're not going to approach it that way.

So that's my theory is that that was sort of his way. And one of the space kids whose name, I don't, I won't mention, she basically admitted that where she said something to the effect a long time ago of like the nine was basically just like this sandbox for us to, or some analogy like that where the nine is basically just like this sandbox for us to play in or something. And again, it was off. It wasn't in the interview. It was like one of this many phone calls we had, and I always stuck with me. So I think that at that time, again, you've got the same years, remote viewing experiments are starting at SRI. You've got the connection to SRI via some sort of paste up going directly to Lab 9. And you, you're

you've got all these young kids who on the tapes are doing remote viewing. But the question I want to push you on this is like remote viewing is used for the U.S. from 72 to 95 and probably now to actually add to our intelligence abilities about real things, drop Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, you know, whatever. Do you think that this council of nine were real, you know, extra, terrestrial or non-human beings communicating through these space kids? Or do you think the nine was being implanted and they were testing their ability to sort of manipulate thoughts? And that was through the nine or whatever. And they had some, you know, I mean, clearly they did have some abilities

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The evidence would point to the latter. I mean, that's the best way I can answer that. God, that's crazy. That's a... And that would go back. It's very deflating, I'm sure, for a lot of the UFO. Well, it is. And again, like, I don't want to come across as this, like, negative skeptic person, because I'm not.

But again, it goes back to, like, if you're trying to be serious and piece together the life of this guy that spans decades, like, and that's what you're hearing. You know, that's what you have. But what is, if you are saying some of the protocol to get people into this, this state involves saying, hey, you're contacting the nine and whatever, it's some protocol, and it sounds like a hypnotic technique. Yeah. But then some seem super open-ended and they just seem to connect with the nine. How do you sort of make sense of that?

Well, I don't know. And that goes back to the kind of, you know, I think Jeffrey Mishlov brings this up of this sort of trickster element, the kind of paranormal phenomena where, like, sometimes. they're tricking you and sometimes it's real, sometimes it isn't. I think there was, you know, with Buharish, like, again, it's always that question of like, where did he stand with like, is this real research that he passionately believes in and he's trying to come to some sort of, you know, reality of the ET phenomena, or was it just all MK Ultra, you know, and again, I don't think it was all mk ultra mind control stuff but there's some gray area there that is so hard to pin down

because again in some of these um sessions and and this is strange is that on some of the sessions you know he'll be like okay here we are with this space kid and in there and their mom is here and she's you know this is like the tape record of the hearing and and on those sessions it's like you know know, typical, okay, the nine, the world is beautiful, we need to save humanity, et cetera, et cetera. Then there's other tapes that are like, you know, what time is the best to remote view of the Kremlin so we can get into that, you know? Oh, yeah.

So I think it's, there was a way of like, okay, I need to kind of, you know, give an example to maybe other people around to say, hey, look. this is what we're doing. Okay, see, you set in on a session, so now you know what it's like. And then when those people aren't around, it kind of gets to the serious stuff. Again, this is what you're hearing,

what I'm hearing. It's all based off that. It's not like really my personal, you know, hardcore beliefs. It's just like, oh, okay, this is what I'm hearing. I think anyone would kind of conclude that. Yeah. But again, I think Pujarich, like,

And this is a big part of the film and a big part of my philosophy about him and his story is like, I think he believed. I know he believed in a lot of paranormal stuff, but I think he got sort of under the thumb of the intelligence world early on. And I just don't think that he could kind of get away from that. And I think, you know, you often hear it's like the mafia, like you don't just leave. And when you're that involved as he was, you know, to say, hey, I'm good, you know. And so I think that there was a lot of pressure on him to do some of this negative stuff that he may have otherwise not wanted to do. And I think that's like a big part of the film and what I wanted to kind of get across with it is there's so much negative stuff. conspiracy stuff about him out there.

I mean, there's tons of it. Have you ever read the Stargate conspiracy, the book? It's really good. It came out in the 90s, and it was the first book that really talked about a lot. Like this book had the story that I told you about, the guy in Florida who woke up with the two-thinplant, and this is the first book that really exposed, basically saying everything he ever did was intelligence involved.

You know, he's an awful person. He's an evil genius. But, you know, it's not true. And I think that I hope to get that across in the film. And I think we do because, like, a big part of that, that research, I don't think he wanted to do. I think he, in a way, was forced to do it, you know? Yeah. And whatever this kind of amorphous blob, that is the UFO legacy program that is always proverbially discussed.

But, you know, usually in a very kind of high-level fuzzy ways. I think that's probably the case with a lot of these people, is that they were kind of sucked up into, in certain cases, they probably came upon really exciting scientific truths that were converging on things that, you know, some, you know, behind the, the Iron Curtain Science, you know, group in the U.S., you know, during kind of Cold War secrecy era, already knew. And they would recruit these people and then they would probably be forced to, you know, work on things in context. texts that they weren't particularly happy about and didn't feel idealistic about. I'm sure that that's the case with him because I, again, like, I don't want to come across as someone who's trying to, like, put him out there because I'm not. I mean, like, I got to know his family really well. I'm, like, very close with them. Yeah. And they were great when I showed them the sort of final product, which really gets into this stuff. And they were like, you did a good job because you didn't shy away from that.

And I think, you know, you illustrated it well. But, you know, they were even like, wow, there's so much in here we had no idea about. Like, we literally had no idea. You're telling us stuff that we never even heard before. Yeah. And so that just goes to show his own family was in the dark about a lot of it. But, you know, the nine, again, like, I just keep thinking.

I think about it a lot. And, again, like, the answer just is. I don't know, but what I've heard and what I've had access to that came directly from his personal records would indicate that it was a made up, a made up thing. Fascinating. Well, that, I mean, that in and of itself seems a little messed up, as does, you know, slipping somebody mushrooms or, you know, telling them they've been abducted by aliens and taken aboard a ship when they haven't or quote unquote

teleporting them and throwing him through a window and they didn't, you know, like these things aren't cool, you know? No, and again, like, I think if you watch, if anyone watches footage of Buharach, he's the most jovial, funny night, you know, like, he's not this, like, monster person. And that's why I, quite frankly, think,

makes him, like, interesting and interesting subject for a film because, like, he's complicated. And he's, again, I think, think being sucked into these things that he would otherwise not want to do. And not to ruin the end of the film, but he basically admits that. He basically admits like that is what was going on with him. Yeah. Well, he warns future researchers basically like don't do what I did, essentially is what he, his message is. If you look at the Zimbardo prison experiments at Stanford or whatever, where, you know, these prison guards start to get really self-important or Stanley Milgram's shock experience.

You know, it's a, and then you combine that with the, you know, the, the power of the CIA at the time. I'm sure you could get coerced into doing all sorts of things. And does that fully exonerate you? Like, probably not. But it's, yeah, I mean, I think the, the best version, which I think your documentary really gives is the nuanced one, which shows how somebody could get incrementally walked into a position like that. And there's just no question the level of, you know, how deeply connected he was to intelligence. I mean, there's a paper trail of it. So there's just, there's no way to kind of beat around that bush. Again, I've read so much online and there's a lot of speculation. But at the end of the day, like, those people don't, haven't seen the materials that, you know, we had. So. So interesting.

Were there any other experiments that they were obviously channeling, they were using these sort of Faraday chambers, they had this machine that produced tones, any other experiments that they were doing with the space kids specifically. Well, here's what's interesting is that, and you see in the film, like, getting back to this idea of the nine being this kind of in point just to like get things done. In the 70s, we're talking 74th through 76, you know, Middle East war, right, going on and Puharach and specifically Phyllis Schlemer that he was still working with her then but and and all the space kids you know they weren't specifically going on these trips but they would literally have a session right with the nine and they would do group sessions where it would be like

you know two people at Pujarach and two other people him and three other people him and six other people and that would apparently like bring the message through more strongly and so forth. But in that time, they're getting messages from the nine saying, you know, you need to go to Egypt. You need to go to, you know, any, you know, Middle East area. You need to go to Russia, you know, and all these places which would otherwise be very difficult for somebody to just go to. during that period.

In fact, one of the guys working with Pujarach at that time, John Whitmore, he was a British guy who got really involved. Like, he even says

in an interview, like, you normally could not even get into these countries at this time. Yet Pujarich, with his psychic, where we're going constantly.

Because the nine said, you have to go here. You have to go there. And so he kind of hints at, like, well, was that really the nine or once again, was

Pujaharach involved in something else that he had to be in these areas at this time, you know, under the auspices that this was a psychic, you know, this was the nine, telling them to go there. Phyllis Schlemer completely questions everything. And, you know, way later in her life, she did an interview. She said he used the TD 100 machine on me all the time. I never knew what it did. I never questioned what it did.

And so you just have to ask, like, how is it that Pooharic, Harich is able to go to these places during that time, get into very specific locations, often involving very high-ranking government people. And it's all just, oh, hey, the nine told us to come here, so we're here. And so a lot of people speculate, you know, I've heard stories of, you know, Christian missionaries who were actually spies and, you know, something like that going on. Again, it's interesting. to go down that road to think about and nothing we have like concretely proves that but i just think like the more you listen to those tapes at that time and the more you just kind of put things together like

it does seem like what if that was that was the cover and oh this guy's so crazy he actually thinks a psychic is telling him oh just let him go what a what a kook and meanwhile he's you know doing whatever he needs to do there yeah it's using the stick of the science kind of in your favor as a cover for something more vital that clearly was actually working and functional. And he actually on these tapes gives, this goes back to like the remote viewing stuff of like some of the questions that they're asking are like, you know, what are what is the code name that, you know, the, the, you know, Russian guerrilla soldiers are using so we then know what to pick up on when we hear this code name. So then that begs the question, why would an alien be like asking those types of questions if that's what you're supposed to be doing, going to the nine? But to go back to the constant contrast is like he really was a genuine believer because he would often go to the Great Pyramid in the same time and do like all sorts of experiments there. Really? And he just loved going there.

Like he was obsessed with the pyramid. He was obsessed with the history, all the Egyptian god. So, you know, that's not. And there are specifically nine Egyptian gods. So that was something he was like obsessive about. We have tape recordings of him meditating in the King's Chamber in 76. And he did experiments with one of the space kids in the pyramid. And they brought through this information.

Apparently they're channeling this Egyptian god. and some pretty weird information lined up during that session. So then that goes back to like, it's almost like, okay, I have to, you know, do my job for the CIA. And on my off time, I can go in the pyramid and do some cool stuff I'm interested in. That's just kind of what it seems, because, like, again, there's no mind manipulation, dark stuff going on there. It's very clearly him, like, I'm going to meditate. in the King's Chamber. Like, well, what does that have to do with, you know,

MK Ultra? So I just think like, and again, this goes to like his death in the mystery about that, where I think like there was a situation too where he may have been, you know, on payroll for, you know, X, Y, Z intelligence agencies and going to do these things, but kind of using that time to do other things he wanted. And maybe that was, he shouldn't have done that. You think they took them out as a result? Maybe it's that. Yeah, I think part of it is that he, because again, he's going to Egypt, right? Because the nine are saying, you have to go here, you have to go to this location to meditate this and that. But I think he's going, okay, well, I'm already in Egypt. And there's the great pyramid. And I've been wanting to go in there anyways. So I'm already here. I'm going to go, you know, but he's there maybe on a mission. And hey, you know, don't screw around kind of thing. I think there was a lot of that going on. and his death is completely mysterious.

What happened? You can see the stairway right for this window where my father allegedly fell down and they found him right at the bottom of the stairs. We don't really know what killed him. Well, so there's a couple of things. He was sick at the time, but not, I believe, not enough

that would have caused us to have. happen. But basically, it was 95. And around this time, he was very vocal about his life, like he was doing these sort of lecture tours at sort of parapsychology conferences and stuff. And he was being very open about his past. And it was one of these lectures at that time where he said, you know, look, I'll admit it, I worked for this part of the CIA. my boss was the guy who was directly involved with all the hypnosis, mind manipulation. Who is his boss? He doesn't name his boss.

But I wait, you know what? He might, actually, let me think. He does. I have to think about it. Did you figure out? Yeah, yeah. I know it. Trust me.

It's just in my crazy head, Pujarach's head. But I'll remember it. But basically, and so he says, yeah, that's what I did. I was a consultant at the time. And so he opens up about a lot of that stuff. He literally says, I can produce, in your mind, the image of an alien experience. His assistant at the time was a woman who was on this tape that Dick Russell recorded, I told you about. And Buharach was in the hospital.

There's a part of the tape where Dick Russell goes outside. I think they're having a smoke or something, and he's just kind of like, hey, look, you know, give it to me straight, like, what's going on with this guy? And she opens up, too, and she says, yeah, he told me about things he's done that he's worried for his life about saying, she says he, using flashing lights, using all of that stuff was able to create the, the, the, the UFO experience, that that stuff was all created, she says. So what? She was opening up about that on this tape and so so he would like stage UFO is showing up as well. I think what she's I think what she was getting at is what we were talking about with this this controller's idea is that yeah like kind of I guess more implanting the the

idea that you've had an encounter or you know you've been abducted or so like he was involved basically making the point he was involved in that kind of of stuff, that kind of research. And again, you know, you're gonna ask like why, why, you know, like, why was it always like the UFO thing? But all that was going on, like, right before he died, you know, that tape was recorded less than a year before he died. But he was found at the bottom of the stairs, he fell.

And he passed away, and at the time, time he had all these um he was still and again this goes back to like what did he really believe he was still living with this group of like women who were like psychics apparently and he they lived with him and he was still like you know doing stuff with them or whatever but but conveniently that day they no one else was there at the house uh when they were usually always at the house and Pujarich has this, like, weird legal pad that he wrote, like, very soon before this, this incident occurred where he fell on the stairs where he's basically like outlining why he thinks he's being monitored. He names people that he believes have come into his life who are there to basically harm him and take him out. He claim, again, this is either like the work of someone completely.

completely paranoid or somebody who's just totally telling the truth. Well, it's right before he fell down the stairs mysteriously. He claimed that they, this, this, and again, it makes sense because these psychic people would kind of like, show up, even to this day and be like, hey, you know, you should study me and this kind of thing. So he, he was a nice guy. Again, so he would want, he would let people in and he would welcome them. And so he claimed that there was a people like that who were actually, you know, basically

out to get him and that they installed. this ELF emitter in his television set. So when he would turn on the TV, he would get hit by this, you know, ELF that would be. And he was a physician. He was a medical doctor, so he would know what was going on with his own body. And he writes in this legal pad, like, you know,

I am, this is happening to me. I can tell. He would test himself every day. Well, he also developed a lot of these techniques, right? Yeah, he developed. They're using what he developed. on him on him yeah i mean if again if this were to be believed which i quite frankly do believe what he says in this but he basically is this legal pad and he it's all these events kind of leading up to why

he believes they're they're out to get him basically right but um yeah coincidentally the day he's found you know there's no one at the house and um right before not right before that but a few years before, before his death, he had been approached by the CIA to head up a ELF research department, basically. Again, he writes this. I've found some evidence to prove that this probably happened, but there was apparently a department being set up just to study ELF, you know, weapons and so forth. Again, a lot of that was going on in the late 70s. And he said no, and apparently some argument ensued. And he said, you know, get out of here.

And because they came to his house, he's kind of recounting this in his notes. And the guy that he said came on behalf of the CIA to talk to him as a guy we know was involved in the CIA. Who's that? This guy named Bob Beck, who's in the film. And he was another Pujarich type where he got roped into a lot of things. I think he wasn't necessarily wanting to do. But so that happened where he refused that and said, you know, no, you know, get the hell out of here, et cetera.

So all of that stuff was leading up to 95 and he was found dead. Coincidentally, you know, the Stargate program ends in 95. I was going to, I literally made that connection in my mind, yeah. And coincidentally, this guy, Grinberg, Jacobo Grinberg. Yes. who there's a great film. Shout out to Ida, my friend, he made this great film about him.

In 95, less than a month after Pujaharach dies, this guy disappears, Grinberg. And if you see the film, the story basically is he was involved in very similar research, basically was able to prove a lot of this psychic stuff is real.

And to this day, they don't know what happened to him. It's still a missing person. Did he ever meet Pujaroch? They met. When Pujarich was in exile in Mexico, after his house was burned, they met in Mexico. In less than a month after Buharad was found dead, Grenberg disappeared. So again, what do you say?

It's all a coincidence and you move on or you say there's something. So bizarre. Yeah, Grinberg, the whole thing about him is like, he realized we live in a matrix and then he left the matrix or something. But what's interesting about him is like, again, it's literally still like an open case. Like they've never figured it out. And of course, a lot of people say, oh, you know, he got sort of kidnapped by whatever government agency and they're using him. And you know what's crazy is on some random message board, this was like years ago, I saw a post that was somebody. like, I know for a fact that Buharach never died and he was taken in by the government and he's

still alive and someone I know. And the weirdest thing is, A, I was skeptical of that, but I was like years later, I remember reading that and I spent hours and days trying to find this mess, but I could not find it for the life of me. I tried everything I could possibly do and I couldn't find it. So that was weird. That's super weird. Yeah. So it just got erased or something.

I get. But that was the, that's like the real theory of Grinberg. Like, again, the doc is really good, but there's, like, actually, you know, legitimate proof that, like, he, he was sort of taken by, by the government. So that's what your friend who made the movie thinks, that he was actually taken and... Well, that's one of the theories that basically everyone involved in the story, like, agrees with because everything just points to, like, that happening. So that was 95. January 95 was Buharach's death. February 95, Grimberg goes missing. Stargate officially ends in 95. Government puts out newspaper articles all over the news.

You know, Stargate, there's nothing to it. It was all bunk. So, and keep in mind, Buharach at that time was lecturing about all of that. And being honest, being open, about all the experiments he did with Stargate. So I think Annie Jacobson alludes to it. Like I just think it was this classic, you know, he knows too much.

And he can't be, he can't be out there talking. And he's experienced too much, he knows too much, and it's not good. So I could see them seeing him as a liability. Late in life, you know, maybe feels remorse about some of the things that he did and he's speaking openly and, you know. they're probably just trying to accelerate the research in the black.

What are some of the wilder testimonies of the space kids that you spoke to? So basically, but the space kids, like, yeah, there were a lot. And again, the reason the film took so long, which, you know, to give myself credit for, because a lot of people are like, I can't believe it took you so long and this and that. But a lot of it was like just getting people to talk. Because, you know, you could imagine these people like, don't want to. And again, this is what, you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff. Like these, these people, like, weren't looking to be in the spotlight. In fact, they didn't

want to be. It took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids who I now consider, like, good, good friends. But that's what took so long. And I always thought, like, in order to make a really cool film, like, you got to get these space kids. It's like stranger things in real life, you know, like, that's what would make this thing work. And so I was just, like, convinced we got to get these, these people. And we got, we got five of them. But again, there was like a lot more. A few of them were like, you know, never reach out to me again. I want nothing to do with this. So what did they say? I mean, that's why. Five is amazing. What did they say? Well, so basically like, yeah, what I did was I somehow was able to track

them down just basically through like in Pujarach's archives and things. And again, on the tapes, like he would say a name or write their name. Actually, in fact, in one of his journals, he, like, wrote all the names of the kids at the time. So it's pretty easy to, like, Google people. But, yeah, a lot of the ones we got were, again, after kind of talking to them and saying, hey, I'm, you know, trying to do, like, a level-headed, you know, portrayal of Buharach. I'm not some crazy conspiracy person. And like, after all that, yeah, they were really open.

But, you know, they basically talked a lot about, like, what it was like being at his house at that time, which, again, was kind of cultish. I mean, if you want to look at it that way in the sense that, like, other than the space, because there's just all sorts of Sarfotti, Jack Sarfati being one of them, like him and his kind of group of physicists people would go up. It was just kind of like a hub of just any, all these people interested in this stuff would just go there and like hang out. For people that don't know, Sarfati is a physicist who is pretty well respected and studied under, you know, very impressive people who, you know, were Manhattan Project, you know, pioneers. And he has a model of time travel and warp drive physics.

Yeah. And he lives in the Bay Area and he's very outspoken, loves to call people a schmuck. He's written about, in the hippies, saved physics by David Kaiser, this MIT guy. Yeah. And so I didn't know he had any interaction with Pujaro. That's amazing. Yeah, he went to his house. Because he also, I believe Sarfati, the way he got involved in this exotic physics that he ended up studying was he claims that as a teenager, he was in some gifted and talented education program.

And he gets a call from the future. saying you're going to meet the others, you're going to work on, like, building UFOs, essentially, which he believes his work touches on building UFOs. And this is a guy who could keep up with, you know, any top theoretical physicist in the world. Like, he's a real physicist. He started under Hans Bet, you know, at Cornell and stuff.

And he says he gets a call from the future. And then, you know, they tell him when he's going to meet the others, and then he ends up meeting how putoff, like later, or whatever, and it's this weird synchronicity, you know, it's so strange. So he's interacting with Andre Pooer. Yeah. Well, you know what's a crazy connection I just thought of.

In that story, so the Sarfati story quickly is, yeah, he got this call from this metallic voice, which is what some of the, what Geller claims this as well, actually. Really? Yeah. So he gets this called, that was some sort of, you know, alien intelligence. But I don't know if you remember his part of the story where his, I think it was his dad or his uncle or something was involved in the army or army intelligence.

And one of the people that he knew through a family member that was connected was this guy Wilson Green. He brings up this guy Wilson Green. And that guy Wilson Green was working with Buharach in the 50s. at the roundtable doing everything they were doing there. Whoa. Yeah. So do you, did you ever ask him point blank? Hey, Jack, like, was any of your stuff?

Do you think it was seated by these sort of, you know, mind control people? I mean, I think, like, he's open about that being a possibility as far as it. Yeah. But I just remember him bringing up that name. And in Pujarach's journals, like he has one where he's kind of listing all these people. That's where I first told you about the Townsend Brown connection. This is insane. Yeah.

This is the craziest thing. To tell everybody about this. Well, in one of his journals, it was just him recounting, like, he would often go to D.C. for, like, meetings. Poo Hargewood. And this is early 50s, again, which weird that the same year you're channeling the nine, you know, in your lab, you're going to D.C. to meet with all these people. But he would just, like, keep very meticulous journals about what he did. where he went, who we met. And he would just like, hey, I met this person.

I for lunch, met that person. And so, yeah, Wilson Green comes to mind because he had something to do with, I think it was the Army's psychological warfare department, and that's the same guy, Sarfati references. But in these journals, he mentions meeting Townsend Brown and spending the day with him. And it's very brief, unfortunate.

Actually, maybe we could do this together. is part of the page that's like so worn. You can't really like read what it says, but it's, it's kind of a, you know, a brief mention that he met with Brown and spent the afternoon. He says something like spent the afternoon with him to disgust a lot or something like this.

I know some kid who like helped, I think it's called the Vesuvius Project and he helped decode this ancient papyri. And so if he could do that, hopefully he could get us this, you know, this transcript. That's crazy. So he met him, and this was, again, I'm positive. It was 53 was that journal.

So yeah, he was going there. So yeah, that's how I found that. And it brings up all these questions of like, were people like Warner von Braun and Brown's ideas somehow seated by like MK.K. Ultra adjacent things? Like, probably not because you have like, you know, Werner von Braun goes way back to like, you know, early journal. Like it's clearly like a, you know, a, you know, a. rocketry genius like, you know, as a young kid, um, was all, was suit way into this,

like, you know, like in his, in his teenage years, um, or was like, you know, if you think about like, what would be one of the main use cases of MK Ultra, it would be, like, keeping secret science sort of unlock, maybe creating some sort of cult dynamics around it, wiping people's memories when they work on really sensitive shit. Like, who knows? And Townsend Brown, to me, obviously, I'm very high conviction in his stuff. The audience will give me shit because I talk about him all the time. But I think he's like the godfather of American kind of, you know, in the black, dark science, like whole tech trees that come from anti-gravity or extended electrodynamics or fifth dimensional physics, I think, kind of arrives

from Townsend Brown. And so I wonder, I wonder what that meeting was like. The time then was weird overall. I think what people don't realize about the 50s is like there's a letter between, I think it's Claude Shannon who invented information theory, who was at Princeton, information theory is the basis of all modern computation. And William Shockley, who invented the modern semiconductor, you know,

Bell Labs, essentially. And it was a letter and he goes, you know, my friend, you have to meet my friend, he's really interesting, you know, he's into all this, you know, interesting science stuff or whatever. and it turns out he's talking about, oh, we're on Hubbard.

And so the point is, like, it's this weird time where the intersection between the types of people who'd be engaging in, like, bizarre seances, ESP, paranormal stuff. That wasn't outside the Overton window

like it is today. Yeah. And so, yeah, anyway, how would you speculate on? Do you have you speculated on the connection between Towns and Brown and Pujaro? Nothing more than just

they were probably interested in similar similar things and and but it's odd because he said it was in dc so brown was there for whatever reason well brown was probably deep intelligence i mean there's a story of towns and brown engaging in a UFO crash retrieval and um i think it's in the late 50s and it's like i think heartford connecticut and this like green glowing object that seems like it's losing mass gets collected by a professor there named Robert Brown. It then ends up at Moonwatch at Harvard, which is connected with Blue Book.

And Robert Friend and Jalen Heineck have possession of this, you know, material. And Townsend Brown walks in to Harvard, flashes his credentials, and takes the material. And like that, you hear stories like that time. You have telegraphs that I think, or telegrams that his daughter, I think, has. I know this, I think, through this amazing researcher on Townsend Brown named Jan Lungwist.

And I think she says that there's a telegram between William Stevenson, who's the inspiration for James Bond, Ian Fleming, is Churchill's super spy who was like, you know, coordinating with Wild Bill Donovan, the OSS. He was like as high up as it gets when it comes to intelligence. And there's a telegram from him to Josephine, who's Townsend Brown's wife, because Townsend Brown had flown behind enemy territory, parachuted into Nazi Germany in 45, to interrogate some scientists because he was an expert and all this stuff.

And this telegram says, you know, from William Stevenson, your husband is okay. You know, he's been injured, but he's okay and he's on his way back to the U.S. or whatever. So I can give you like 50 other stories like that. Like Curtis LeMay, I mean, his daughter said, I think on the phone with me, Linda Brown, says, Curtis LeMay,

chases Townsend Brown down the stairs because he's so interested in his inventions and stuff. So this guy was like as deep as it gets when it came to the American intelligence and military elite. So it makes sense if Pooherich was as well on the kind of the psychic, you know, vector. And maybe if all of this stuff is being coordinated at a higher level, then we understand. And there's some spooky science stuff and the anti-gravity connects with the psychic stuff. You know, nuts and bolts. Like they all kind of, materials, they all kind of connect at the top. Those two guys seem like very central nodes.

Yeah, and I think there's a lot of similarities with what you said, you know, this idea of like flashing credentials and walking in play. I mean, there's, again, I could give you 50 examples of Pujarach doing that kind of thing that I've heard. And so, yeah. And I think like the journals that mentioned Brown and these others, like, I don't think these were sort of meant to be seen, you know, these were, like, buried in his, in his records.

In fact, like, in the film, you'll see, like, his, his assistant at one point kind of mentions this idea that, like, not long before he passed away, like, he had made mention, like, these papers I have in my house need, someone needs to take them. I don't trust giving them my children for their safety. And so I think this is stuff that was not supposed to be, read, you know, or seeing. It's amazing.

There's a lot of other names. I researched them all. He met with Dulles. I guess I wanted to mention that. Wild. He's literally, again, in the journal, met. He's like, you know, says something like, you know, was in the waiting room for an hour and finally got in and we had, we talked. So obviously you're up to something serious.

Yeah. You're meeting with the third director of the CIA who, yeah. It's a while. I mean, if, yeah, if anybody was kind of running the government behind the government, it was Dulles. Yeah. Yeah, some of the wilder testimonies. Yeah, the space kids. Space kids, yeah.

So, yeah, they just basically recounted a lot of, like, what they experienced, a lot of the channeling session. So a wilder story is this, one of the space kids, his name is Jaime. He's from Mexico City, great guy. And again, he was somebody who would never have wanted to appear in a documentary. You know, like his life was totally fine. You know, he didn't need to talk about this. But he did because eventually he told me, like, if you're willing to like tell the real story, like, I'll talk because he knows, like I did. There's just so much like BS stuff out there about Pujaroche and everything.

But he told me a story about he was mediter. At one time, he was doing an experiment with Buharach's assistant, this woman who's in the film. They were doing an experiment. They were meditating together. And they were sitting in a room together, both meditating, and he says that at one point, she got up. And she went over to him, and she touched his. forehead with her finger and when she did that this big blue ball I guess this like ball of energy as he describes it appeared next thing he knew he came to she was all the way across the room

against the wall and he was back up against the wall and he doesn't remember what happened and the last thing he remembers is that she touched his forehead some sort of burst of blue light she flew across the room and he told me that and you know and he said look you know you can talk to the assistant like she'll she'll corroborate this and and i did and she did and she did and his his theory was just like we some connection you know must have been been occurring and and And what do you do with that? Because something I learned, which was very bizarre, because this was another thing that Buharach didn't kind of open up about until way later in his life, is he says, and again, this is not me or speculation or making something up. Like, he says in his own words, he invented this prosthetic finger that would have a chip with a certain ELF frequency.

that would emit from it. So when you touch somebody's forehead with this, it would be the exact frequency that would knock them into the hypnotic state they needed to be in in order to do channeling. And so he could basically just like, I could go like this to you and you would fall into the thing. He says that.

One of the kids says, yeah, I remember that. So was this instance with Jaime and the finger, something to do with that? What was it not? I don't know, but that's one of his stories. That was really bizarre. Any UFO-related stories? Yeah.

There was a lot of... There were a couple, like, the classic, you know, right now there's a UFO that's sort of hovering over this session, and some claim to have witnessed that. There was a few stories like that. So that would be in the like his protocol like he'd be saying that or like they'd be like automatically channeling that. That would be like apparently the nine, you know, saying that, saying this through them. Yeah. But then there was a lot of. But like if we're to get super concrete about this, like is that him beaming the message right now there is a UFO, you know, above our head? Or is it like creating some weird protocol? and then like what happens to them,

happens to them, and we have no idea where that content is coming from. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. It's strange because a lot of these sessions are very long, like some of them are literally like two hours long, you know? And it's just, I hate to say, like,

it's kind of like you just need to hear it to kind of like, to understand because it's just, it really is mind-buby. because I constantly go from like, this is, this is an experiment. This has been to like, oh, no, this is like, literally he's making contact with an exterrestrial. Say you were to suspend disbelief entirely and just take the contents of the nine at face value. How would you characterize these nine beings in what they want for humanity? Well, it's like I said before, they, they,

speak a lot about this idea that we have the ability of destroying ourselves, you know, and that if there's a way they can prevent that, then they want to. And they talk a lot about nuclear bases and this kind of thing that, you know, we hear a lot about now. They kind of say, like, we're kind of behind a lot of the sightings that are occurring on nuclear bases. But now I'm like, You're making me think this shit's real.

The reason, I'd love to be cynical about it, but like the nuclear stuff has been going on since the 40. There's this guy, Bud Clem. There's this UFO and Nukes documentary. It's all based on Robert Hastings, great work in his book. It's really good. And I made kind of a, you know, another little thing with Robert Hastings on my channel. But you have this guy, Bud Clem, as early as 1945 in Hanford,

where he's talking about these fireballs in the sky. And they did this project Twinkle, which was deleted from the Air Force, archives. Lincoln LaPaz, this meteorite expert at University of New Mexico is talking about green fireballs that seem intelligently propulsed flashing that aren't explained by anything prosaic. And just like the nuclear connection is so ubiquitous. And then you're telling me the Atomic Energy Commission gave him money. They gave him like over a million dollars. Yeah. So like if I were them, I'd be like try to tap into what the hell is, you know, controlling. Yeah. Dude, this is a crazy rabbit hole.

Yeah. Obviously. What was I going to say? You know, see, now you're, now you're entering what I've been in for like years of this constant, like, wait a second, now I think this. Because there was a lot of, well, you know, the classic thing where like with UFO disinformation, they often say like some of it, you know, some real stuff is sort of peppered into. Yeah, absolutely.

I think it was that kind of thing too, where like maybe there was real, you know, ET UFO-related research going on with some of this mind control stuff peppered in just to throw off the course. Well, what connection did you just make when I said the Atomic Energy Commission? Well, what I was thinking was there is, I think I sent you something about this guy a while ago. And I have to say now I don't know enough. so I don't want to go too much into it, but there's a guy's named Oliver Reiser. He was a philosophy professor

at University of Pittsburgh in the 60s and 70s. And he wrote a book called Cosmic Humanism, which I've only read some of, but it's basically this idea, like his whole worldview is this idea that like everything is wrong, everything in the world, is just run on frequency, tone, sound.

He thinks it's like the universe is all sound. And that's how, you know, that's how like interstellar travel works. That's how all psychic stuff where it all comes back down to this, you know, sound, tones. Again, there's this big connection here with this tone stuff. But anyways, Buharish knew this guy. They exchanged like dozens and dozens of letters. But this guy's theory, Riser, was, you know, the ability to communicate with, you know, ET UFO is through tones, through sound.

And he was like, again, so complex. I can't barely understand it. But him and Buharch would exchange these letters that were like, you know, two masters going back and forth about this stuff, like diagrams, charts, math. And like, you got to think, like, they obviously were like, on to something, and again, this goes back for the 100th time of like Puharach's real interest in this stuff, but Riser, yeah, this was his theory, that the way to communicate with, you know, non-human intelligence was essentially through tones and through sound. And so you get Pujarach, you know, doing that,

basically, where he's using tones and sound with space kids and can you, while they're in a trance, there's a lot of experiments where like, I'm going to, you know, to play this certain tone and can you kind of like connect with that tone while you're in this hypnotic state and can you follow that tone where is it bringing you and what do you hear now all sorts of stuff like that um so i guess what i'm getting at is maybe there was some real research there that had to do with something that wasn't just you know a mind control thing because this guy riser was brilliant. I mean, in his obituary, Albert Einstein said he was like, you know, a genius. Was that true? Yeah. What?

Yeah. Albert Einstein said like Riser is, he had some quote about him being, you know, this genius. That's insane because Riser talks about like parapsychology and mind batter stuff. Yeah. And you think of Einstein as being totally opposed to things like that. Yeah. Well, I think with Riser, like a lot of guys, like he started doing more, you know, quote unquote, legitimate research, but he got, he got obsessed with this, again, this theory of tone, sound, connecting the universe. Wow. This is how everything works.

And so him and Pujarach were exchanging a lot of letters about, like, you know, do you have the ability to create such and such a tone and at what speed should it spin within the, you know, complex stuff, but would lead me as a lay person to think, like, okay, clearly they, like they're talking about something serious here, you know. That's so fascinating. So, so the point in the Atomic Energy Commission funding it, I find the same years, literally the same years he's exchanging letters with the riser. Yeah.

63, 64. Yeah. That's when he gets the contract from Atomic Energy Commission. I mean, it's all there's, it's a paper trail. And the 50s, UFOs showing up around nuclear bases is this ubiquitous thing. It's constant. It's all over. various CIA Air Force documents, you know, I sort of document a lot of this stuff.

Hastings documents it. It was definitely a thing. In 64, there's a famous case at Vandenberg Air Force Base, the guy named Photo Instrumentation Specialist named Bob Jacobs. So that's fascinating. Yeah. Very interesting. So, yeah, it just points back to this idea that I, you know, he was genuinely interested in, in paranormal, you know, research and UFO. I mean, it's not just like all of that was fake. Yeah, yeah. I just think it got muddled at some point. Yeah, and like, you know, maybe there's somebody like typing out, you know, what these

space kids are channeling and then it's converted into this ELF frequency and it's transmitting to the, you know, space kid's brain or whatever. Well, you know, it's where do you say that because on a lot of the tapes, there's mention of coupling to the computer data bank is often a term that is thrown around. a lot and this idea that there are some sort of computers involved on which end though because are they recording what they're saying no what you what you just said somebody's typing something whoa because they often say well now I'm back in the in the more cynical camp where it's like my control at one point he said that you know that referring to the channel being the person you know at some

point they will become a more reliable source of data and there's a lot of talk about about that and again like what we have are tapes and tons of them and hundreds of hours so like you just all you can do is piece together well what did the space kids think do they think that they were genuinely tapping into nine you know non-human entities or extraterrestrials or do they think that they were tapping into like some dude on the other end like well Because a lot of them probably know the history that you know at this point. Well, that's a great question. And I think that's really the best way to approach it because they were involved firsthand.

But I think, you know, to answer from what I know is I actually discovered things about, you know, what I'm talking about with these more sinister connections that they did not know, in fact. One of the space kids who I'm close with, like, yeah, she was like, you know, shocked. I, I, because again, what, what they didn't understand, what I think a lot of people didn't understand who were involved in this project is like information, I was getting information like, as recent as like six months ago about things that I didn't know that were like really important to the story, like this guy Bob Beck, who was, who was, who was at the, at Austining at the time of these exact space kids experiments. This one of the spaces, like, I never even knew, knew that. Like, you're telling me this for the. first time. So it's a mix between, I think, to be quite honest, I think a lot of them want to believe that what was happening was genuine, and I think they want to remember the time they had there as a positive time, and they don't want to go down the negative path, or they don't maybe want to accept that the negative path may be, you know, the reality. And I don't, I mean, I would probably do that. I mean, you know, so I think some of them want to just try to say, hey, look, we were told,

we were talking in the nine, we were committing with the nine, we were, it was a good time, we were young, we were free, you know, et cetera. And a few of them have become more open, like the guy from Mexico City, I told you, where I think, think some of the things that I told them made them say, wait a second, I didn't know that. And all of a sudden, after all these years, they themselves are going, wait, what is that? And who's that? And they're starting to put pieces together that they never, they never thought about. And they're starting to maybe think at least, okay, something else was going on. Well, was it, you know, we don't, we don't know for sure. But I think they're willing to accept,

like, something else was going on back then. One of the trippiest people that interacted with Pujarich, who he probably had plans for and almost seems like the subject of some, you know, kind of maniacal experiment is Valerie Ransone. Yeah. Who is she? She, well, I wish I knew who she was. She's like the most elusive person I've ever come across. I think she's the most elusive person in this whole UFO history. I mean, so basically what I do know is that she was.

she was working in the White House during the Nixon administration, and it had nothing to do with intelligent, or maybe it did, but it had nothing to do with intelligence or anything. It was some sort of program to, I can't remember, it was sort of like a SNAP benefits type program. It was something like this, but that's how she was involved in government, which she was part of a program like that. But apparently she became very interested in the UFO topic.

She became very good friends with Gordon Cooper. And she claimed to be a space kid, I guess. Like, she claimed to be able to, like, channel information. And so she somehow wound up at Pujarach's lab, Lab 9, and 78. And she is very, there's nothing there about her. There's nothing out there about her. There's a couple people I know about who have been trying to track her down for years. They can't. Apparently she's still alive. But she basically, I believe, was extremely deep in the whole UFO thing. And I think I knew a lot.

We have a tape recording of this guy Elvis Star, who was very, very high up. I can't remember his exact role. He was like maybe head of the army in the 60s, some high up role in the army. But anyways, he was very, very connected. He was pictures of him with like every, you know, president during the 60s, 70s. Like, there was a tape of him saying, like,

I met Valerie Ransone in the White House. She believed she was in touch with extraterrestrials and he kind of makes a joke like, what do I know? Maybe she was. But that kind of firmly places her in that circle because there's a lot of speculation about like what's true and what's not true but this was a very legitimate guy basically placing her what's what was his role exactly he was um so from what i understand is yeah he was like

the head of uh army something or other and then he went on to become the president of like west virginia university but he was a part of all these like weird science um uh companies in weird energy companies that were happening in the late 70s. Like there's this company called Magnetic Energy's LLC or something that Valerie had some sort of connection to. And this guy was like consulting for that or he was connected to a lot of like weird stuff, basically. And it was very little on him other than his more official kind of government roles.

But he has this because he was writing a memoir and we found this tape where he was kind of like dictating what he was writing. And he says, yeah, I met her. She was in the White House a lot. She knew a lot of people. But, yeah, basically, she just claimed that she could communicate with UFOs. They were giving her advanced information that she, in effect, had to pass on to, like, important scientists. She predicted the failure of one of these rocket launches in the late 70s that actually did occur.

Which? I don't know. That's so great. What? Oh, wow. So basically she was there, but the kicker is like she was also really involved in a lot of Tesla technology research, a lot of ELF research, and a lot of people who I know who were, including the space kids, were like, yeah, she was like, she was connected. She was extremely mysterious. We have no idea what was going on with her.

So they remember seeing her around. Yeah, yeah. And then she was somehow, like, do you know what? role she had in the White House? No, other than this guy, Elvis Star, basically saying, like, I, I met her on numerous occasions at, you know, inside the White House. You can look it up. I can look it up, too. I'm sorry, I don't remember, but it was some program that she, like, ran in D.C. as part of the Nixon administration, which, again, was not, like, involved in an intelligence thing, but that was her, like, in with that world.

And she had some NRO involvement, too? Yeah, Jacques Foulet is the only one I know who wrote about it, but he claims that he spoke with her back in that late 70s time, and she was doing some sort of work for the NRO and experimenting with satellites and messages from satellites to people. And I'm telling you, man, yeah, I mean, I've tried to, I mean, the other film I'm doing, which is a whole other thing. But she's really involved in that. And that's how I got into her, because we have a tape recording of her. That was a phone call that was recorded. But yeah, if there's like any crazy enigma in this world that someone needs to like get to the

bottom of, it's her. And I don't know if they ever will, because I've certainly tried hard to. And apparently she's still alive. She's still alive. Yeah. Oh, you got to go find her, man. Well, I've, I've, I think we kind of know where she is and stuff. But it's really just strange. She was very involved with Gordon Cooper. And again, he had started some company as well. That was some like advanced energy LLC or something. And so from what I understand,

she was kind of like going around. And even Jacques says this. Like she was just trying to create this network of, you know, high up government individuals and people to kind of like start getting interested in in advanced technology, Tesla technology, ELF stuff. But all the while she claimed to be, you know, a space kid and able to receive information and channel information. So trippy.

Yeah, and there's a guy, a Kit Green. He, I mean, I don't even care anymore at this point about saying stuff like this. Like, he, I was talking to him for a while, and he was. like, yeah, I can't be involved in anything that mentions Buhar, is too controversial. And then he told me that he knew Valerie Ransom really well and that he was like, I don't know much about him. Again, I'm not trying to cover because I'm like nervous or anything. I genuinely don't really know.

I just know, I've heard a lot about him being like a person who helps, like abductee, people who claim they're abducted and stuff. So apparently he was doing that even back then with Valerie and he was working with her, which I don't know what that means. exactly. But he was very, I mean, there's something out there online that's, you know, very, you know, open where he talks about this, I think. But anyways, he, I was like, hey, I'm trying to do this Valerie thing. He was just like, yeah, no. And like, basically like, don't talk me again. And anything revolving that name I can't be associated with. And every single person I've talked to

who knew Valerie or had same reaction. Yeah, I'm literally like I wouldn't go there. You should just kind of stop now and I've gotten all that stuff. Whoa. So like what's going on? What do you think? Do you have, first of all, the little context for the audience, Kit Green,

he's deeply involved. He's a CIA psychiatrist and doctor. I knew that, but after all that stuff, I don't really know, like, what his... He's deeply involved in, like, I think the whatever CIA files around biological interactions from, you know, people interacting with UFOs that was given to Gary Nolan in the like mid-2010s. I think that was, I think given by Kit Green and Kit Green analyzed them alongside Gary

Nolan. But he's like a longtime guy who kind of pops up in UFO lore, kind of akin to how put off, but really seems to be as deep as anybody specifically on. kind of the psychological kind of, you know, you know, neuroscientific dimension of this whole thing. So what do you say, do you speculate as to what Valerie? Well, yeah, I have a couple of things. But yeah, the Kit Green thing, again, I'm not, I did talk to him.

I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. I just think he, like, it's just another example of someone who's like, oh, her, yeah, I can't be involved. Like, you're better off, like, not going there kind of thing. So a couple of speculations. firstly, and this came from someone named Bruce Erickson, who's this kind of like New Age researcher guy, who I know who's really cool,

but he knew her, he knew Valerie really well, and he painted her in the same light as like, you know, she always happened to be there. Whenever something's going on, she always happened to travel with no, no issues,

no money issues, she was always anywhere she needed to be. But he speculates that she was sort of, like a spy and the type that would maybe sleep with with somebody for information. And a lot of reasons that these men in particular don't want to talk about her is, you know, I don't need to say it. Maybe something happened now they're married. They don't want to go there.

Maybe that's why it's this very standoffish thing, which I can get that. But that was his theory because apparently she was really good. I mean, there's one photograph that I know literally one, that exists of her. That's not true. There's one online, and there's one that I have in the Puharach archives of her at Lab 9. And, you know, yeah, she was very good looking.

So that was this one theory, is that she was kind of like getting information on behalf of who, I don't know, but this, you know, you hear about that happening, you know, sleep to that kind of thing. So that was what this guy said who knew her well. That was his theory. But the other theory is that. that she was, again, with the same idea of being an attractive woman, was able to lure in individuals to help with funding for certain projects.

And, hey, I'm a part of this thing. You should be a part of this thing. Because, again, she was always on these boards of these sort of weird energy companies and things like that. But the really weird thing is, I don't know if you've seen it, There's allegedly an interview of her on YouTube. So you probably know this YouTube account, Eyes on Cinema. Oh, yeah.

So anyways, on there, this one day, this was not even that long. It was like a year ago. This video pops up. And it says Valerie Ransone, like describes her UFO experience. Anyone can go right now and look it up. And I was like, holy shit. Like, that's her. I've never seen, again, there's one picture.

And I'm like, oh my, this is crazy. In the interview, it's really bizarre. She tells us really weird. And the thing is, it checks out of what we know from her. And most of the information is from the forbidden science books, John Follet stuff. And, you know, she says I was going to school in Northern Illinois in this interview. She says she moved to Houston.

We know Jacques met her in Houston. The point is everyone I know who knew Valor, I said, oh, this is great. A video exists of her now. sent it to them, hey, look, here's Valerie, like, can you believe this? Every, no, that's not her. Nope, that's definitely not her. I knew her, that's not her.

And I said, well, that doesn't make sense because, like, everything she says in the video checks out to what we definitely know. Nope, not her. Not one person. And even this... Do you think they were, like, they just, again, didn't want to...

I don't know, but it's just... It goes back. She's so... She's the biggest enigma in this whole world. Every single one of them, nope. Oh, man. And anyone who thinks that's her as an idiot.

But everything she says checks out. And in the video, she tells this crazy story about how she had a UFO experience when she was a kid in college and her friend saw it. And then after that, she continued to have bizarre sightings of UFO sightings happened to her in her life many times. And then some guy, you got to see the video. She says this guy shows up one day to her job. and is like, hey, you know, I want to take you, I can't remember exactly what she says, but basically this very mysterious guy shows up.

They go out to lunch, and he's like, you know, I know that you've had these UFO experience, and he spouts all this stuff about her that no one would otherwise ever know, like stuff about her family. I know you've had, you had this UFO experience at this time and this location. So she's shocked, right? So then she says she gets into the car, with this guy because he's driving her home or something and he gets a tape cassette puts it in the car and the tape cassette starts and it's a voice a metallic voice basically saying you know i'm an a i'm an et and i'm here on earth on like a humanitarian mission and i we want you to work with us you you're going to be the first uh test human to work with us you you're going to be the first uh test human to work with us

and, you know, do you accept this position? And then she, the guy parks and she gets out or whatever. And she starts to question, okay, what's going on here? Like, was this real? Was this guy trying to, like, recruit? That's her story. And then after that is when all this stuff happens, of her getting involved with Pujah. This was like early 70s, she claims this happens.

and all this stuff that we know about is, you know, late 76 and 77, 70. So that's her, like, origin story. But apparently it's not her. According to everyone who knew her, oh, that's not her, that's not the right woman. That's not even what she looks like. So, wow. But on the tape recording we have, which is a recorded phone conversation, the voice on that, which is most definitely her, sounds, it's, it's her.

on this video. It sounds just like that voice. So it's probably her. Yeah. It's so weird. So that's a rabbit hole in and of itself, but, but basically, yeah, she spent like a good amount of time at Lab 9, and she brought Gordon Cooper there. And then she disappeared. And everyone who knew her was like, yeah, I have no idea what happened to her or they're just straight up, don't want to talk about her. I don't know. It's really bizarre. She wrote some book that's a base. basically all this channeled information that she got. Have you read it? No.

Well, I've skimmed it, but I think you used to be able to buy it on some odd website, which is now down, but it's very, very strange. And when I was trying to get in contact with her, I weirdly, this is a crazy story. This guy got in touch with me completely out of the blue. And this has happened a few times throughout the making of this, where like someone is like, hey, I heard you got, you have Pujarach's archives. I'm really interested in him and what do you have and we should, we should talk and that kind of thing.

This one guy, weirdly right around the time of trying to try to track down Valerie, he reaches out to me. And he's like, same thing. Hey, I know, I'm a researcher and I heard your name about Pujarach and this and that. And he's like, you know, have you heard of Valerie Ransom? And I said, yeah. He goes, oh, would you want to talk to her? Because I'm actually in contact with her.

And I'm like, yeah, sure. And so he forwards me an email, which is allegedly from Valerie, which is like, you know, hey, you know, let's talk and this and that. And one thing led to another, and this guy just completely ghost disappears, right? Never heard from him again. I look him up on Facebook. and again, maybe I'm crazy and this stuff has gotten to my head, but his Facebook looks like the quintessential, I'm making a fake Facebook account.

Yeah, yeah. This isn't me kind of thing. Sure. And that, you know, again, I'm very level-hood. It really, like, spooked me out. And then years later, this was, we're talking probably, probably like 2016, 17. I'm talking like, you know, not that long ago, like

2021, he reaches back out to me and is like, hey, you know, what's going on with the film? And is there any way I can see it? And did you ever talk to Valerie if you want? I can try to get, and I just never responded to the guy again. It was really strange. Wow. And I tried the email that he had that he claimed was Valerie's,

of course, it like, you know, weird. Well, what happened when you emailed? Oh, no, nothing. Okay. It wasn't, it didn't kick back, but I just never, you know, I never got anything back ever, yeah. But you think you've located her? Yes.

And you're going to try to interview with it. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, I hope you do, man. That would be incredible. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot to get into it with her, but that's the gist of it. And just the fact alone that Kit Green was involved with her back in the late 70s is really strange.

So strange. Yeah. And early 80s, yeah. This is crazy. It's like there's a woman in the Nixon White House who's to claim she's channeling aliens and also happens to be on the board of all these sort of, you know, spooky science outfits that seem to stem from exotic Tesla, you know, extra low frequency technology. It's really wild. And what I can say for, again, for a fact is like, in the late 70s, there really was like so much unknown about this potential,

like radio frequency weapons. And it's on YouTube. There's a whole CNN special, which came out a little later. I think it was like 83. But it was kind of detailing all the research that had gone into, like, you know, those types of weapons and, you know, radio towers that can beam a certain frequency. that can agitate people and et cetera. So that was kind of like the wild west in the late 70s there of like,

I think people trying to figure out what this is, what can be done with it. And he was just like in the middle of that. And, you know, there was a lot of people running around researching that at the time. And I think there was also a lot of research happening of, you know, what's the potential of this stuff? What's possible with it? So, and Valerie was, again, interested in that and was involved in that. So it's so wild. What are the implications for all of this on modern UFO disclosure, which seems to usually

emphasize kind of aerospace contractors, secret, you know, nuts and bolts, weapons technology, faster than light travel, that sort of thing? what are the implications of the stuff you're looking into for that i think it's i honestly i think it's more of the same that we talked about earlier i think there's some there's some truth peppered into a lot of you know false going on and i think that that still happens you know i think that's still going on so you know i think the implications are, it's just still difficult to navigate what's real and what is not real, you know? And I think it takes people, you know, like you and others who are like really seriously interested in looking

into this stuff and talking to people to kind of like keep going with it, you know? Yeah, well, this is a, I mean, if they're, you know, it's a big puzzle that we're putting together. This is a huge piece that I think is. missing for a lot of people, you know, prior to your movie. So I really hope people go check it out. I think it's going to be, you know, make a lot of waves and update a lot of people's understanding of this whole topic. And I loved it. I thought it was really well made. How can people go find it? Well, it's going to be for purchase on, you know, iTunes and YouTube and that kind of thing. Yeah, we're going to do kind of like this release now with

age of disclosure. Okay. We're going to do like a, you know, you can purchase it for a certain amount of time. A little bundle situation. Yeah. Okay, cool. But there's some interest in some streaming stuff. And anything big that I didn't touch on that I should have had.

Honestly, like, yeah, probably. But, I mean, you've got, you're a gift that keeps on giving. That's crazy. Oh, oh, the one thing I was going to mention is, this is, again, an example of something like very recently, like Bobby Ray Inman, I know a lot of people are talking about right now. I called him because he was head of naval intelligence, I think, during this exact time that Pujarj is doing a lot of space,

because stuff like late 70s into the early 80s and a lot of ELF stuff. And I just just called him straight up and I introduced my stuff. How'd you get his number? I found his number online. What? Yeah. I kid you not, it's one of those classic white pages sites where it was like a bunch of different numbers.

And I'm like, God, none of these are ever going to work. And I was like, hello? And it was him. It was one of them. Oh, my God. And he was pretty nice, but I just straight up was like, hey, have you ever heard, you know, the name Andrea Pujarach? Do you know Bob Beck? Because those are the two working at that time with the space kids.

And he was like, no, I've never heard the name. And he was really nice. And he was just like, if you come across anything more concrete, you can call me back. And, but I just figured, huh, maybe he knows something. because we know naval intelligence at one point was like a big funder of Buharach, not only back in the 50s, but going into the early 80s as well.

But anyways, he didn't. That's what Harold Malmgren always said. He said the deepest, you know, kind of core was the O&I, Office of Naval Intelligence. They really knew the most about this stuff. Yeah, he, Pujarach was in with them very early on, and he continued. In fact, there was a,

scientists working with Buharach at this time, Elizabeth Rousher. She passed away, but they got like this huge grant from the ONI. And I was like, you know, looking everywhere to try to find Dagh. She has a huge archive at Berkeley of all of her research. And I had someone go there and look and we couldn't find anything. But, you know, they were working with a lot of people then. But yeah, Inman didn't come up with anything. Well, he might have reasons to withhold information as well.

He was the, I think, Deputy Director of the CIA and the director of the NSA at the same time, I believe. Yeah, something like that. Oh, the other thing, yeah, the last thing I'll say is, not unlike Valerie, one of the space kids who we did an interview because we couldn't find her, but she's on a lot of these tapes. So was this woman named Sharon.

So, you know, Sharon with two R's. And like Valerie, you know, huge question mark. Everyone who knew her then was like she was this very legitimate, real psychic. Pujarach apparently would bring her around, show her off to people in government and academics and just say, like, look what she can do. She can channel all this advanced information. He was always working with her.

there's pictures of her, and she just disappeared. And everyone who knew her back then was like, you know, it would be amazing if you found her because she, they were convinced that she was pulled into a, you know, Stranger Things Montauk project type project where, like, she was the real deal and she was sort of pulled into a project like that. That's why she's just kind of like wiped off the face of the earth. There's nothing about her anywhere.

Again, I went to the great lengths to try to locate her, nothing. Does this? People don't want to, like Valerie, they don't want to talk about her when you bring her up. So that was another example of like, okay, maybe there's some reality here because it's just so bizarre. And like multiple space kids were like,

yeah, I knew her well, and I wish we could find her. Like, she was a friend of mine and she disappeared. Just like she was a, the whole program was a feeder, maybe into something deeper. Yeah, there's a lot of conspiracy stuff like that out there. But people think that his,

yeah, Buharach's lab was that. So do you, does this add to your conviction, you know, I think even the makers of stranger things say that, uh, it's based off of, you know, the Montauk experiments. And I think it's pretty well established that there were some experiments in Montauk on Island. Does this add to your conviction that I don't know, you hear all these things around gifted and talented education, you know, uh, kids who do, who have sci abilities. Yeah. being taken into secret national labs facilities, often associated with the Atomic Energy Commission or federally funded research and development centers like Patel Memorial Institute and others. And, you know, they're told to like, you know, how do you interact with this exotic piece of metal or, you know, pick a card or, you know, things like that? Does this add to your conviction that this was happening in sort of a widespread way? Oh, yeah. Pujaroch himself, again, if you choose to believe, you know, what he says, he openly says, I helped locate these kids.

He talks about it. I mean, he says, like, I was the person who would say, you know, yeah, this, you know, this one checks out and they would move on to wherever they would move on to. He talks about helping other countries with this, the UK. He said he traveled to the UK and help them locate children. with siabilities. So it's all that gray area, you know. Yeah, and you have to ask why this stuff is coming back into vogue. Like you have the telepathy tapes top the podcast charts in the entire country.

Yeah. And part of me is thinks it's a beautiful, amazing thing. And obviously, in my opinion, I think, I don't think it's all a sciop. I think that some of these autistic non-giverable children are actually. they do have really amazing abilities. It's unfortunate that some of them, like this woman that went on Danny Jones, I think are actually faking things.

It's the mother of one of the kids, and she clearly was peeking past this blindfold, which is just so sad, and what a poor representation of, you know, again, what I think is an underlying real phenomena. But does it make you ask questions around why is all of this stuff coming back to vote. It feels like if you were to take an index of aliens, sci, and psychedelics,

and you were to, you know, like say it's like a synthetic derivatives, like an ETF or something, if you were to invest in this in the late 60s, early 70s, you'd like lose a lot of money into today. But now if you were to invest in these things five years ago or something, it just feels like they're all taking off. Like it feels like the trend is like, and, yeah, Are you cynical about that? Is there, is there, I mean, maybe even to take that ETF analogy further, are there financial or corporate interests behind the repopularization of some of these things? Because a part of me is extremely idealistic about them coming out because I do think it touches

on kind of deeper architectures and nature of reality. And then there's another part of me where I'm like, it's got to be coming out now because of some military-industrial complex reason or something. I don't know. I mean, I think, I certainly think this film is going to help, you know, put some pieces together about the history of all this stuff. And I think the fact that it's coming out now is interesting because of all this, you know, this resurgence of interest in it.

But I know what you mean. I don't know. Like, I talked to a kid who claimed he was part of the gate program, and I won't say his name, but now he's very vocal online. about his involvement in that and what he did, and he wanted to talk to me because it was so similar to the stuff the Space Kids did that he read about, but I don't know what to believe with that.

So it's just, I don't know, I'm in the same boat as you. I don't know what the motives may be, but I think that Pujaharach was certainly extremely important in this whole world, and the fact that there's never really been something like on him that's out there. is exciting for me, obviously. Yeah. I think it'll raise some eyebrows.

I think so too. Raise some eyebrows, maybe ruffle some feathers. But you know, you're on the right path if you do that. But, um, yeah. Greg, this is an honor, man. This is a lot of fun. One of my, honestly, like, I love information dense podcasts, especially ones that are uncorrelated from other, you know,

I love the stories. You know, I saw. thing and I was in the bud and I wasn't you know they put a chip in me like that's it's fascinating yeah but you it's always hard to sense make after that like how does this fit into some coherent tapestry of what's actually happening yeah I love this interview because you just to me again you know you added this big puzzle piece uh that seems to be missing as far as this whole story and obviously begets uh you know a hundred more questions but yeah um I really hope everybody check out the movie and thank you for being here.

Thank you, man. I appreciate it. Awesome. Head to Americanalchemymerch.com to grab official American Alchemymerch and support the show directly. And while you're there, the Cowboy UFOT is a fan favorite we always keep in stock,

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