American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Top Physicist: “There Was A Nuclear Catastrophe On Mars” (ft. Dr. John Brandenburg)

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

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I asked this fellow, I said, is there really a UFO cover-up? And he said, yes, he said, and that's all I can tell you. The rest you can figure out for yourself. Mars was covered with liquid water. I was the one to find the Martian Ocean. We were looking at Sidonia Menza, which is a site where there's the face, and then there's a five-sided pyramid. NASA never shows that picture of the face beside the pyramid together in any of the

public photos because it becomes a side. obvious. Really? We're looking at archaeology. They kind of made fun of me as the Mars guy, and then suddenly Carl Sagan is trying to get a hold of me, and I said, well, Carl, what'd you think of the pictures? Rainerberg, why are you causing this trouble? No way. Yes. I'd found and digested the isotopic evidence, and when it all hit me, I wept like a child. It looked like a thermonuclear holocaust. We were so afraid it would happen on Earth. I'm here with Dr. John Brandenburg, and it's an absolute honor to have him. You first popped up because I, actually, I did a piece on Townsend Brown, and, you know, my audience has heard me talk about

Townsend Brown ad nauseum. He's this mid-century inventor who I think, you know, did some interesting things in the world of gravity, possibly helping marry gravity and electromagnetism from an experimental standpoint. Maybe not in the strongest, you know, the strongest theoretician. And then all of a sudden there's all this Twitter noise about this guy, John Brandenburg, who has his own model, GM, gem theory. Gem theory. Gravity electromagnetism, is that right? Just gravity electromagnetism. And then more recently, I've started to get interested in kind of Mars anomalies, which have gone kind of viral. Like Joe Rogan recently retweeted my buddy Chris Ramsey, who posted this photo that's now been verified at the highest levels of this sort of square structure on Mars that looks artificial. But that's of a long lineage, as you know,

of seemingly artificial structures on Mars. And you're about as deep as anybody on that topic. Yes. And so it's just an absolute honor to have you, and I appreciate you taking the time. Well, Jesse, it's a pleasure and honor to be on your show. Awesome. You have had many awesome guests,

and I followed your work. It's very good. Well, you're among the most awesome. And why don't we start with just, because we're going to be getting into pretty interesting territory that for the average, you know, person who believes in kind of consensus or mainstream science might feel beyond the pale. So I think what's possibly most remarkable about you is you have very traditionally impressive bona fides and credentials. So what's your background?

Well, I went to, I grew up in Oregon and I went to school for undergraduate at Southern Oregon in university, majoring in physics and math, and inspired by my uncle who worked on the Manhattan project during World War II. I wanted to go on from my Ph.D. And they encouraged that. And so I ended up working at Lawrence Livermore National Lab, which was the Center for Fusion Research at the time. It's also where they had the big laser fusion experiment. And at the other end of the lab, though, they were building hydrogen bombs. So it was a very interesting atmosphere. Edward Teller was kind of the mentor of the program and it was a very entertaining character to hear talk and he would come and talk to us and I had several pleasant conversations with him. It was very inspirational. So then I finished there

and I went on to another government lab called Sandia National Lab and worked on directed energy weapons. I wanted to work on fusion, but all the money had suddenly dried up for fusion research. And so I worked in New Mexico for about three years, and that's when the laboratory staff experienced this moment of great angst and kind of morale collapsed because of two things. The nuclear winner came out, and then there was a able-archer crisis. of 1983, which was classified. We were as close to nuclear war as we were during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but it was secret. Only people on the lab premises inside the fence knew how bad things were.

And I was felt in despair like a lot of other people at the lab, and that we were going to have a nuclear war by accident. And then I saw this interesting stuff on Mars, and I checked it out and I thought, suddenly I had hope for the future for the human race. I thought, well, if we discover a dead civilization on Mars, then the Cold War will be over.

The Russians and Americans will go to Mars together and investigate. And I remember the first night, after seeing that evidence, putting my little daughter to bed and having hope for her future. And so I, then I went from there to, Washington, D.C. and worked as a defense contractor, as a consulting physicist, to the Pentagon

and the Intel agencies. And at the time, I didn't believe in UFOs. But after working there for about a year, suddenly it was absolutely clear there was a UFO cover-up. And at what point did that become clear? Well, I talked to a friend of a friend worked for the Joint Chiefs of Staff at their, you know, at their staff level. He was a colonel, and I've been hearing all of this rumors. The rumors were just very thick in the air during the Reagan administration. He was warning him out invasions or outer space and that we ought to end the Cold War because of that. And I asked this fellow, I said, is there really a UFO cover-up

and he said yes he said and that's all I can tell you he says the rest you can figure out for yourself he says this guy was on the chairman of joint chiefs he worked for the the joint chiefs as a staff

so you spoke it was a friend of a friend but you spoke directly to the person yes I did the chairman of the joint chiefs and he he was not a chairman he was not one of the joint chiefs but he was part of their staff or something yeah supporter and he and he was like there is definitely a there Absolutely. And then I confirmed that through a second source.

Through the second source. He was a some hapless character I called at Space Command, and I said, I've heard there is an extraterrestrial threat whose existence is classified. I'd like to help with that program. And he said, oh, okay, here, let me see if I can connect you with somebody. And then he says, he says, we'll have to call you back on that. What was Edward Teller like? You know, obviously, famous inventors of the hydrogen bomb. Very animated. He had big eyebrows.

You know, he's Hungarian and Jewish. And being Hungarian, he had a congenital fear of the Russians. And he was just a very, I considered him a very creative, enlightened person. Really? Yes. And because he's sort of, it's funny, post the movie Oppenheimer, I feel like he's painted as this sort of villain who wants to build a bigger and bigger bomb. And if you do read his letters around the creation of the H bomb, it does belie somebody who has a conscience who's saying, you know, I think we need to do this for the Western world because if we don't do this, the other side is going to do it. And it's actually really important that we figure this out. So yeah, what, we, we, What's your take on him? I mean, other people.

Oh, I believe he was acting on instinct, and he was from Hungary, which has a bad history with Russia. And he just intuitively felt that the Russians were working on the hydrogen bomb, and now that they had the atomic bomb, they'd gotten the atomic bomb secret, and that was what you needed to set off the hydrogen bomb. It was basically the detonator cap.

And he says, can't stop working on the hydrogen bomb because if we do Joseph Stalin will get the hydrogen bomb and we won't have it. And Oppenheimer was suffering from a great deal of angst about the bomb being used in World War II. And he resisted this. He says, no, we don't need the atomic, we don't need the hydrogen bomb. We have the atomic bomb. And the Russians will never figure out how to build a hydrogen bomb. And later, Teller and Sokharov actually got to meet. And Sokharov, the father of the Russian hydrogen bomb, looked at all of Teller's communiques and back and forth and said, oh, Teller was right. We would have never stopped working on the hydrogen bomb. Joe Stalin wanted the hydrogen bomb.

Did he, so you said he were working down the hall from him, and he was working on hydrogen bombs, just for the audience's perspective. So hydrogen bomb, so hydrogen bomb. is basically uncontrolled fusion reaction. Uncontrolled fusion. And the kind of holy grail and energy would be controlled fusion. Controlled fusion, that's why I've worked most of my career on. Did Teller believe in the ideal of cold fusion, or not necessarily cold fusion, but controlled fusion? Oh, yes, he did.

He did. And curiously enough, Andrei Sokerov is the designer of the Tokomak, which is the leading contender to be a, control fusion. And is there a relationship between Sakharov and Teller? Well, they were both brilliant people, and they both kind of, they thought down the same passages. They looked at the data and came to the same conclusions, even though they were completely isolated from each other.

Are all the conspiracies about controlled free energy, you know, you have people in UFO world like Stephen Greer who are like, it's the lost century, we figured this out. 100 years ago with Tesla. The patents have left all these patent offices and inventors have died and they'll go through like a laundry list of these inventors who like, you know, Stan Meyer had a car that ran on water or whatever. And I don't know what to think about it. Look, do I believe oligopolis kind of run the U.S. or have for a long time? Like basically, yeah, I do. Do I believe they would commit sort of violence to maintain their oligopoly and, and, and, and, you know, and, you know, and ensure scarcity, yes.

Do I also simultaneously think that we have some zero point energy machine or a controlled fusion reactor hiding in a closet at Lockheed or something? I'm not so sure. So yeah, what do you think? Are you still lugging around one of those bulky, worn-out wallets? You know, I am. Your posture's not great due to that wallet. Are you aware of that?

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Upgrade your wallet. Thank me later. I think that controlled fusion would be the ultimate fusion device, I mean the ultimate energy source. Zero point energy is very important to understand a theory of unifying gravity and electromagnetism because it's in quantum mechanics. However, according to Andrei Sokharov, the way to tap zero point energy is have a black hole in your basement and feed it stray animal. and things you don't want, and get the energy, some of the energy goes into the black hole

and some of it bursts out. And you don't want to have a black hole in your basement. No, that doesn't sound so great. But I guess the question is, do you think there's been a line of suppressed science that has been hidden in the black, but could amount to real civil side updates in the way we live our lives,

the way our cities are built. I'm not known for being a skeptic about things, but I'm a skeptic about that. I do not think, short of making your own black hole and trying to keep it in the erasement, you can harness free energy. Now, I could be wrong. The times I've been wrong in my career

have been mostly when I said, this can't be done. And so I, but I don't subscribe to Jim Greer's idea that the government is keeping free energy from us. I think I do know that the fossil fuel industry is probably the most well-moneyed, most powerful lobbying group on Earth. There are countries where it is their entire lifeblood is fossil fuel. If you endanger that, you will take away, you'll be viewed as taking away their entire way of life. So do I believe that there's an energy oligarchy trying to guard its turf? I'm afraid I do,

but I think that because of global warming, which I believe is happening, we have to come up with a new form of energy. I sat down a couple of years ago with Eric Weinstein, an old colleague of mine, and Hal put off, who's a kind of a renowned scientist. Love Hal. Love Hal. Great guy. And Howell, you know, made some interesting comments around, there was this anti-gravity craze in the 50s. And then, you know, in the 60s, it kind of just like vaporized.

Yes, it did. It kind of went, it seemed, and he goes, they either didn't get anywhere or it went black. And that was like this famous line from that interview that got, like, clipped a bunch because, you know, he's this kind of spooky insider. I agree with Hal. There's a famous series came out in Miami Herald and other newspapers in probably the 50s. The author was Talbert.

And he did a series where he found out that a number of aerospace engineering companies were suddenly interested in anti-gravity. And that people like DeWitt on up and down, really top-level physicists were suddenly getting grant. to look at the idea of anti-gravity. For example, the gravity essay came along. The Gravity Research Foundation in Boston. Right. And so it looked like it's going to be a big explosion. But anyway, it all sort of quieted down.

And I could take two implications of that, and that is, it quieted down because no way ever got anywhere. Or it quieted it down because it did get somewhere and it went black. So you think from how that's like a, I can neither confirm nor deny, statement and that it's a confirming without confirming it. How is still very much part of that world and he has to follow its rules. Why do you agree with how that anti-gravity updates were made and went black? Well, obviously, if you have anti-gravity technology or what they call gravity modification,

we're not anti-gravity here. We just want it to be a little bit more flexible. That's right. And so it would have great military importance. Einstein worked very hard on trying to do a unified field theory to unify that, you know, there are four forces of nature. Two of them are infinite range. One is electromagnetism. One is gravity.

The weak, the strong force, they run things at the size of the nucleus and the atom. And they're powerful, but they don't have long range. So Einstein just figured, okay, I can pick out the two long-range forces and unify them, and he made a lot of progress, and he helped get Kaluza-Klein theory, which has a hidden fifth dimension to unify gravity in them mathematically. He helped get that published. He didn't like the fifth dimension, but he decided that the math worked out so beautifully that it must be true.

Fifth Dimension is one of my favorite groups during the 60s, by the way. Up, up and away. Up, up and away. Wait, wait, but so you're saying that Einstein might have figured out the unification mathematically? Because the modern understanding is that... No, he... Well, there's the saying that on his deathbed, he suddenly became ecstatic

and started talking excitedly to his nurse in German, like he'd had a conceptual break. through and the nurse didn't understand Germans. So then he got back in his bed, lay down, and passed away. So he died happy. So he may have some last moment. Now, Hal Putoff and I both have come up with similar theories. And we just did it by just simple deduction. And, you know, from physics. The nice thing about gravity theory, and electromagnetism, you don't need to have a quantum theory of gravity to unify gravity in M. There's an electromagnetic effect I found that looks just like gravity.

You can call it radiation pressure. And Sander Sokharov found something very similar, and this is what led Hal Putoff to develop his work. And the only thing different between my theory and Hal Putoff, is my theory predicts big G, the gravitation constants, and the mass of the proton. Imagine the beginning of the universe, the Big Bang. Before the Big Bang, nothing. Suddenly, one second later, the universe is a fireball

of hydrogen plasma, almost pure hydrogen, like 1% neutrons, enough to trigger some nuclear reactions. but it's basically just hydrogen. So the vacuum is hardwired to make hydrogen, electrons and protons, which are both stable. They last forever. And so if you ratio their masses, it's 1836, and the square root of that is 42, which I did not know. I did not know about hitchhiker's guide of the galaxy when I wrote my original theory and derived that result. The key number to the universe is 42.85, it turns out to.

So I want to get into your unification theory towards the end of the episode, because I think that's in sumfer to a lot of people the most interesting, but it's also, I think, maybe the least accessible for the lay audience. How did you get into the idea that there may have been life on Mars in the past, in the distant past? The Viking missions had been in 1976, and when I was in graduate school and they gave the verdict

they tested for life in the soil and they said... You know just tell people what are the Vikings? The Vikings were a very ambitious double probe mission. It was ultimate vacuum tube technology kind of mission and they sent these probes to Mars

they photographed the surface of Mars in great detail with just superb cameras. They landed two landers to test the soil for life, and they got mixed results, which now can be interpreted as they found life. But at the same time, they also sampled the atmosphere and found a great excess of radiogenic isotopes. They're stable isotopes, but they're formed by powerful nuclear reactions. They found that on Mars, and that made Mars unique. It was so unique that when then we started getting meteorites, we started recognizing, oh, there are these strange meteorites.

And it looks like they come from Mars and they tested the gas trapped and they found the same pattern of strange isotopes in the Mars, strange isotopes in the Mars, what they thought were Mars meteorites. And that's how they figured out that they were for Mars. because Mars isotopic signatures are so unique in the solar system. And what exact isotopic signatures did they find? Well, they found a large amount of Xenon 129, which is the product of two things, supernova explosions and hydrogen bomb explosions. And we know there was no supernova on Mars.

If there was, there wouldn't be a solar system here. And you said there was one other argon. There was a, also there's a, when you irradiate rocks that have potassium in them and L rocks do, they produce a isotope called Argon 40, and that's super abundant on Mars. So you have two things that are products of what look like an intense nuclear reaction on Mars in the atmosphere. And they're both, their most, the residues of that. that remain in the atmosphere, they're stable, and they last forever.

So, but they also found what looked like archaeology on Mars. And that was the initially the most exciting thing. I only found out the significance of the isotopes on Mars from a staffer at Sandia Labs. What's the convention, if I were to be sitting across from Neil DeGrasse Tyson, you know, And I said, in order to say, because he's tried to explain a way, you know, very pleasant fellow. He's tried to explain away, you know, the face on Sedonia or whatever, that, you know, this famous seemingly artificial structure or whatever.

I would love to sit down and talk with him. I'd be great to host a debate. He didn't. So as long as they let me bring my picture of it's from NASA. Yeah. I think he would shy away from debate. I think he likes, you know, to kind of pontificate and, like, act smarter than, you know, everybody else on his own show. I'm calling him out.

Throw down, dude. I know. Well, we've called them. out multiple times on the trail. Throw down. And he just, I think I'll be waiting. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. From your lips to God's ears. But so if I were, if I were sitting across from him, let's just, you know, a little audience surrogate devil's advocate question. Sure. How would he explain Xenon 129 and Argonne 40? He can't. But he would he admit? That's the short answer. Would he admit that...

Oh, he probably wouldn't admit it, but I've... No, would he admit that we found those. Oh, oh, yes, he would. That's a fact. That's a fact. It's indisputable. So we would just say there's probably some other explanation, but I don't know what it is.

But, yeah, that's what he would say. Yeah, that's usually the case. And I have reviewed the literature very carefully on this. You can imagine I'm sticking my neck out as a scientist. Yep. But I found that the consensus among the real experts on isotopes, not just on Mars, but are they other planets and meteorites and things like this, is that there is no explanation for the Xenon 129 superabundance or the Argonne 40 superabundance.

Yeah. So let's get into other possible evidence. Okay, so that's really interesting. And do the two, so Xenon 129, that would. come from these large hydrogen explosions? Is that right? And then Argon... And supernovas, but it was not a supernova on Mars.

Right, and I don't think anybody would contest that. No, no. It's not a star. It's a planet. So, and then the second thing, the Argon 40, that's a result of some sort of explosive event with potassium. Is that right? Well, it means a lot of potassium was irradiated by neutrons. Okay.

Which is a typical byproduct of any hydrogen bomb, or any atomic, any nuclear explosive produces lot of neutrons. That's where they got the neutron bomb. And, okay, so that's interesting. Okay, so let's, that's kind of hard to argue it, right? Like, that's one piece of evidence, right? Now let's get into other possible evidence. So, water valleys seemingly across Mars, is that right?

Well, obviously, Mars was just covered with liquid water. I was the one to find the Martian Ocean. You were? Yes. How did you find it? Well, actually, it was, we were looking at Sidonia Menza, which is a site where there's the face, and then there's a nearby, like five miles away. There's a five-sided pyramid. NASA never shows that picture of the face beside the pyramid together in any of the public photos because it becomes obvious.

Really? We're looking at archaeology, you know. And Sidonia is what region of Mars? Cydonia is in the northern part of Mars. It was considered the garden spot of Mars they wanted to land one of the Viking landers there. But then, in something that was kind of scandalous, the people, the scientists running the Viking program who were determining where they were going to land, suddenly found themselves overruled by a group they didn't even know existed on the project. Who were they overruled by? They were never sure.

NASA just said, NASA just said basically the boys downtown say you can't. land there. Do you have any theories? Oh. They had already taken pictures of Sidonia with the Mariner 9 and... So the Mariner 9 was pre-Viking. Pre-Viking.

That was the one where they discover all the water channels and the Great Vailless Mariners. But then the Viking pictures showed clearly this face and then they also found this pyramid nearby. And so, and they were doing, that was part of the surveys to see if it was safe to land there.

They were worried about hitting big rocks when the thing came down. It was a reasonable error. But then they just said, oh, we can't land inside Zidonia Menza because it's too rocky. No, it wasn't too rocky. It was the fact that the face was there and the period. But who's calling these shots? The Intel and Defense Department. NASA is a, I call it a hood ornament on the Missouri.

mysterious black sedan, which is the real space program. Okay. And that's just completely bound up with it. It is. They make sure that they clear everything with the three-letter agencies. Okay, so you have this. That's my understanding. So you have this face of Sedonia, the pyramid of Sedonia, you have this other artificial structure, which has recently been popularized. The square on Mars. I call it the Mars Masada. The square on Mars. You have the even conventional understanding that there was probably water, on Mars. Oh, yes, there was an ocean on Mars. And what happened is we found that there was a shoreline near Sidonia Menza. It was like on the Riviera of Mars. And we followed the shoreline around at the, because they had good elevation contours. And we found that the elevation contour of what

was called zero kilometer wrapped all the way around the planet. And the transition and terrain was dramatic. It was rocky and rugged above that elevation, and below it, it was all smooth. Obviously, it was old ocean bottom, and also the river channels all fed into this basin. And if you were talking to a conventional astronomer or Neil deGrasse Tyson, nobody could argue with that. Like, everybody says that water probably existed on Mars. Well, yeah, one guy kept saying it was liquid carbon dioxide, which is, which is regressive. And is that taken any more? That's the only other.

That's the only, you had to have something that was common, that was liquid, to make these channels. And water is the most abundant chemical compound in the universe. It's made of hydrogen and oxygen is the third most abundant element in the universe. And so it has to be water. And so it's been confirmed. I gave my paper at a scientific conference in 1986 to a room full of Mars scientists, and yet NASA will never mention my name.

Really? It actually should be called the Brandenburg Ocean. Oh, wow. I just called it the Paleo Ocean of Mars, but it should be called the Brandenburg Ocean. Who retrieved the images first? It was the Viking team, or was it a telescope? Oh, it was the Viking team.

And then you sort of spotted it. Oh, yes, yes. Interesting. And what were you doing at the time? What was your question of the house? We were investigating. We had good Mars maps. They were actually.

What was your role, though? Like, what was your job title? Oh, in the independent Mars investigation, headquartered at SRI, interestingly enough. Stanford Research Institute. It's the same place where we found out later that the remote viewing program, was just down the hall from his headquarters of the Mars investigation. But what happened was it was an informal investigation, and I was just in charge of getting good pictures.

We're trying to get as many pictures as possible of the face on Mars and the pyramid as Sidonia from as many different lighting angles as possible. And we had two really good pictures at different times a day. and then I went and looked at a different part of Mars that was also on the seashore of this ocean and found another site with two faces, one of which looks like the same face inside a helmet

as at Sidonia. It was really, it was kind of hilarious because we discovered it and we published it. And Carl Sagan had actually called me on the phone. Really? And I was very deeply honored, but basically his conversations is Brandonburg. Nobody ever calls me John. And they always love me, Brandon. Brandenberg, why are you

causing this trouble? No way. Yes. He said, why are you causing this trouble? I was a Sandia labs. I'm working on directed energy weapons and he calls up. I get this phone call. He says, you know, this is Carl Sagan? I want to talk to Brandenberg. And I said, you're talking to him. And he says, why are you causing this trouble? As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that helped me stay sharp, focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say, mudwater has completely transformed my mornings. Back in the day, I used to struggle with that post-coffee crash, and let's not even get into the caffeine jitters. Mudwater gave me the smooth, steady energy I was missing. It's packed with

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I was the first author on this paper we'd given at this conference. And so he kind of It kind of was very dismissive. Then we found the second face, and we advertised that at this conference. And it was a place they just called it Utopia. And so I got a phone call, another phone call from him. He said, I'm sorry I was kind of short with you on the phone. And I said, you know, we found another face.

He says, yes, I heard about that. Could you send me a copy maybe of this face? a picture of it and tell me where it is. And I said, sure. So I had a bunch of pictures and I stuffed them in an envelope and I said, you know, I got his address, Carl Sagan at Cornell University Astronomy Department. And I put it in the mailbox and I actually watched the mailbox truck take it away and go. And then at that time I was at Sandia Lads and I left there and in the next month and I was

moving to Washington, D.C. to work at Mission Research Corporation, really excellent scientific organization supporting the Pentagon and the agencies. And so when I got there, I gave him a call, gave his office a call, and I said, you know, what'd you think of the, you know, I just talked to a secretary. I said, oh, this is Brandenburg checking in. I'm in Washington, D.C. now. Just wondered what he thought of the pictures.

And in those days, people didn't have cell phones. It was all, if you were lucky, you had a beeper. Yeah. And so over the next, and I'm going in and out because we're doing all these marketing meetings, it's the Reagan Arms Bill. Oh, my God. There's all this work going on and Star Wars and stuff. Every time I come back to the office, the office manager, who's this really nice lady, he says, John, Carl Sagan called and wants to talk to you, and I would get on the phone to his office, and of course he wasn't there.

And so we played telephone tag for two weeks. And finally I'm talking with my boss about we're going to go to Naval Research Lab and pitch this program. And the office manager walks in and she says, John has a phone call. And my boss just looks at her like really annoyed. Like what is this? You know, why are you interrupting our meeting? And she says, it's Carl Sagan. And my boss looked really amazed and said, well, I guess you better take the call, John.

So it gave me instant credibility. I mean, everybody talked about me because my Mars work this, you know. They were like, yeah, why is Carl Sagan all this? Well, they kind of made fun of me as the Mars guy. And then suddenly Carl Sagan is trying to get a hold of me all the time. And so I go to my office and here's Carl Sagan on the phone. I said, well, Carl, what did you think of the pictures? He says, I never got them.

And we both had this long moment of silence. I said, okay, here's the frame number. here's the long lat, here's the, you know, I'm going to fax you a copy right now. You know, just give me a fax number and I'll fax it to you. And that's what we did in those days before the Internet. And he said, thank you. And he called me back later and said, you know, this isn't as big as the first one. I said, I said, yeah, it's about two thirds of size.

He says, but yeah, it's very interesting. He said, it's very interesting. And that was it? And that was it. That was it. And then they changed the name of the region from being just utopia to Galaxus chaos. And I really... What's the significance of that? Chaos means kind of cliffy ground. So it was kind of a technical description. But it was apparent I'd thrown somebody's galaxy into chaos by finding this second face of Mars that looked like the first face of Sidonias. And now it's been confirmed. It is another face.

By this point, we knew we'd found a dead civilization on Mars. Yeah. And I will be very honest with you. When we found the second face, we also found shots of the first face in Viking pictures showing it illuminated at morning. So you can see that it was symmetrical right and left. And then I'd found, I'd found and dejecture. the isotopic evidence. And when it all kind of sitting in my office,

it all hit me, I wept like a child for about four minutes. Why? Because they were all dead. It looked like a thermonuclear holocaust and had it happened there. And we were so afraid it would happen on Earth, working at Sandia Labs. And I just, I just was just overcome with grief. after a few minutes, I said, get a hold of yourself.

I just started, get a hold of yourself, get a grip. You know, and I said, don't be sad, be happy. Because now you know, now you know. The universe has no safety net. Bad things can happen in the universe and make sure they don't happen here. So I became very, very dedicated at that point to see that we have a human mission to Mars,

boots on the ground, to find out exactly what happened on Mars, to make sure it doesn't happen here. That's my focus. Isn't one popular theory, even in, again, conventional circles, that Mars had a magnetosphere? And that allowed for water to exist and stuff, and that its magnetosphere was somehow stripped? Well, Mars is only half the size of Earth. It has about one-eighths, the man. of Earth. What that means is its core would have cooled off quicker, and the molten core is what allows the liquid iron dynamo that generates the magnetic field on Earth to exist. So Mars may have just run out of gas, but... Okay, so the magnetosphere just died out. It just died out. And that's,

that wasn't, so you think they had actually extincted themselves before that or after that? They were unrelated? I think so. I think Mars... And for the audience, the magnetosphere would allow a biosphere to exist. Yes, yes. Would allow water, but also possibly life. Well, and it's, as they're finding out at Chernobyl, by the way, life can thrive in areas with a lot of radiation.

It just mutates faster. Yes. And so accelerated evolution on Mars may have proceeded after the magnetosphere. died, but there's other things going on. Mars looked like it had a dense atmosphere with a nice greenhouse going. On Mars, greenhouse effect was not a bad word. It helped Mars to have earth-like temperatures, even though it was farther from the sun. And what happened then was suddenly all that was gone. Something, some cataclysm, what looks like a thermonuclear holocaust, blew most of the atmosphere off into space.

So it's only got a thin, tenuous atmosphere left, and it leaked all its heat. And a greenhouse, planetary greenhouse, traps heat. So even the core stays hotter. So it could have accelerated the decline of the magnetosphere on Mars, losing its atmosphere. And there's still areas of Mars that are still strongly magnetized, and they found Aurora over them.

Due to the magnetic field presence. Yes. Wasn't there a meteorite found in Alaska as well in the 90s that Clinton then spoke about publicly? Actually, he was found in Antarctica, and that was ALH 8401. There's a certain type of meteorite called C.I. Carbonaceous chondrites. They're basically old lake bottom from some planet.

And this meteorite was from Mars? Yes. We know. That was a piece of lab. but it had a vein of carbonate inside, you know, limestone, and it was full of organic matter. And they... Yeah, it looked like bacterial fossils. It looked like bacterial fossils in there.

I found their evidence really rather convincing. But they were attacked viciously. We have archaeological structures on Mars that seem to imply that water existed at the very least. Oh, yes. We have, you know, conventional astronomers saying, you know, there was probably a magnetosphere back back in the day, and that would allow for a biosphere. Yes, it would. And then you have these artificial looking.

You don't even need, you know, there could have water in the ocean, life in the oceans without even being on land, and it would survive the radiation because of the seawater stops all the radiation. Right, right. And then you have artificial structures. And then you have Carl Sagan calling you saying, why are you making all this trouble? So there's a, seems like a decent amount of evidence that at least, at the very least, this is worthy of further investigation, and maybe we should move our probability from zero percent

life on Mars to much higher than that. Oh, I think the data has received. And then you have the isotope. As they achieved critical mass now. And you have the isotopes, which are really like the, which nobody can explain, the xenon 129 and the Argonne 40. So this brings up another question, which is, you know, I just interviewed Joseph McMonagall, who's remote viewer number one in the Remote Viewer number one. Psychic Spy program. And he was given, this is now public and declassified, he was given coordinates to remote view on Mars,

a million years in the past. Yes. And so you can say that, like, you know, as a modality, remote viewing is imperfect. But the fact that he's being given coordinates for a million years ago is fascinating. And so what do you, and then I was just at his place, and he's showing me all these correspondences between him,

and JPL people or whatever and like and with these photos that they're sending him. And I'm like, are you, are you sure this is real and you're not being like duped or whatever? And he's showing me these photos of tons of artificial structures on Mars. And I'm like, he's basically implying to me that it's an open secret at Jet Propulsion Lab that there was life on Mars. And I'm like, why are they not publicly making a statement about this? And he's like, oh, well, they don't need to. And I'm like, well, what are you talking about? Like, yield to grass ties.

These other, you know, Citadel Keepers I know. Rule the day. So, so, but no, but. The old guard of Mars. If you were to walk into JPL and talk to, you know, a random sampled scientist there, randomly sampled scientist there, if you were to walk into JPL and you were to talk to a randomly sampled scientist there and say, hey, like, there was, I think there was

life on Mars, you know, a long time ago, and they might have, you know, extinct themselves. What would they say? Would they call you crazy and laugh you out of the room? Their eyes would dart around to see if they were being or anyone who was listening. And then they'd say, yes, but don't tell anybody I told you. Why is that not some like, you know, thing that humanity should just immediately know? That's just interesting and exciting. It's the, my explanation.

Yeah. is it's partly due to just old-fashioned institutional politics and agendas, jet propulsion lab versus, you know, the rheumatic space program versus the human space program based at Houston. But it also has to do with the chilling effect on American science and global science because of the UFO cover-up. I, you know, I can say the Mars-bone, is connected to the UFO bone, and the UFO bone is connected to the headbone of this government. And so it would be disruptive from like, we are the sole authority on Earth or disruptive from religious perspective, and it would just kind of upset people's worldviews and mass or something.

That's, there's a great deal to that. And that's kind of old-fashioned thinking. People's, the public's understanding and awareness has evolved sufficiently now that if you told them there was life on Mars, they would just accept it. They'd be fine. And even a dead civilization on Mars is not threatening. It's not going to invade us. We've gone so far beyond. We're saying that there are saucers and hangers at aerospace corporations and stuff.

And like, you know, people are getting into all this psychic stuff. I know. Number one podcast in the country for a bit was the telepathy tapes. And you're saying that people can't believe that, you know, a million years in the past, there was life on Mars. If anything, we live in this multipolar world that's a complete powder keg where you have mutually assured destruction between global powers that have nuclear arsenals. It would be an amazing wake-up call. Oh, it would be. It would be wonderful.

But at the same time, you've got to realize the public needs to be brought up to speed. It's once you find life on Mars, then you know there's life in the stars. It's just a given. If it's here on Earth and it was on Mars and it's still on Mars, by the way, there's a remnant biosphere there, and we have very strong evidence for that. Then they know, people know, that there's life elsewhere in the cosmos. They've gotten over the first hurdle. The second hurdle is, are we the only intelligent life in the universe?

And then you find the Martian archaeology, and then you realize, Oh, no, we're not the only intelligent culture in the universe. There's a dead humanoid civilization. It's interesting that faces look human. They don't look like lizard men. They don't look like praying manuses. They don't look like little gray aliens. You think the faces are fake.

Because there is a concept called paradolia. Oh, sure. Where you see a face because it's a pattern that you're used to seeing or whatever. Yeah. And so you're sure that that face is a monument that was specifically built to the... Yeah, it's slightly eroded, like all archaeology. You look at pictures of the Spinks when it was first photographed. It looks like hell.

They've spruced it up a lot for the tourist bureau in Egypt because it's money, you know. People want to come there and see this good face. But the thing is that there's paradolia and there's also another phenomenon in Egypt that's called denial. It's called denial. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. There's what's called a reverse hallucination. It means you see a pattern there clearly, but you deny it exists because the implications of it are unacceptable.

So who is covering this up? Who's at the top of the pyramid, so to speak, no pun intended, understanding that there is, Because another, one more piece of evidence, you have Haim Eshed, who ran the Israeli version of Space Force. So all their, you know, space signals, comms. I think he won some, like, National Security War. Yes, he did. And, you know, for Israel three times or something.

Absolutely. He's, like, very well respected. Yes, he is. And in conventional circles. And I actually am in touch with, like, an understudy of his. Oh, very good, very good. And. The most odd no.

The massage they know. It's their business to know. I'm sure they do. And hopefully I would love for Hymn to speak and for him to come out because that would be such an amazing crossing of the Rubicon as far as his background and credentials. We're talking. He's getting older. But he says that there's a galactic federation, that there are like factions of aliens fighting each other and that there are American astronauts working with aliens underground in Mars, that there's like a biosphere underground or something? Does that seem crazy to you? I'm amazed he's saying that. Let's talk about a guilt-free

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there's life on Mars, past and present. There's a dead civilization on Mars that look just like us and built stuff that looks like us. It's not a threat to us. It's not threatening. They look primitive. They look Bronze Age. They look human. And they're dead. And did I forget to mention

they're dead. They can't, you know, they can't invade us. And that means, but something happened up there that looks like it may have been that they were attacked from space by somebody else. We have to go up there to Mars and find out what happened as quickly as possible to make sure it doesn't happen here. And you don't tell me you're going to send a bunch of rovers up there. You could drive rovers around Sidonia mends it for years and not maybe not find anything. You have to go up there and dig. Ask any archaeologist. Archaeology is based on digs.

You have to get astronauts or with tools, shovels. They have to dig down. They have to find hieroglyphs. And you think, so you think it. So we have to go up there. The final, you know, I keep saying, I keep saying the final piece of evidence. Another interesting data point is Donald Trump on Joe Rogan experience. He immediately pointed to Mars.

He goes, you know, he goes, the men, he goes the people from space. He's talking about JFK, and then he goes, what do you think about the people from space? And then immediately there's some weird non-sequitur to Mars. There's no reason not to think that Mars and all these planets don't have life. You know, because we... Well, Mars, we've had probes there and rovers, and I don't think there's any life there. Well, maybe it's life that we don't know. But maybe it's a different kind of.

Well, maybe there was life there at one point in time. Do you think, like, the highest levels of our government are aware? Yes, they are. Yes, they are. Okay. And there's just some tacit cover up because of some kind of Cold War secrecy overhang of not wanting to kind of rock the boat too? Well, the UFO cover-up is the crown jewels, but the, you know, the treasury, the box of treasure is actually on Mars. What about the moon?

Is the moon bound up? Because there are some weird, the moon has much of the model. Well, we've already, you know, we've been to the front side of the moon. If people want to watch Earth and monitor our stuff, then the moon is strategic. So you would have bases there. But you have them on the far side, interestingly enough. It's almost as if you're afraid we'll see them. The UFO cover-up people didn't want any extraterrestrial life or intelligence talked about. But Mars, my view is the human race is extremely fortunate. We have a nearby planet, easily accessible just by chem we don't even need to use breakthrough propulsion to get there we can get there with sheet metal uh liquid propane or methane liquid natural gas and liquid oxygen and you can

make that on mars to refuel i mean it's i mean we've got all these rovers roving around it's very easy has anyone interfered with us doing this no they want us to get acquainted with the fact that we're not alone in the universe. I believe the Galactic Federation, whatever you call them, they want us to advance and they're watching out for us. But Mars is a golden opportunity for the U.S. government to advance disclosure without making the public feel threatened. Various, yeah, I like that. That's like a political, yeah. You don't want, you know what? It's the bad signal. Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, let's hope the right people hear that. that would be an interesting kind of

Elon Musk can call me anytime he wants and I'll take calls for the president too President Trump I'm sure you will You mentioned a name earlier Richard Hoagland he wrote a couple books He wrote a couple books He wrote dark mission

And then another one about monuments on Mars The dark mission stuff gets into NASA being some like a cult ritualistic, you know, like, what organization, literally like doing launches at specific times of the day and year

and engaging in rituals. I don't, I don't know, I don't believe in any of that. My favorite quote about Jet Propulsion Lab is actually from Whitley Striebler, who I've sat down with a couple times. And he said one of the management people had said at Jet Propulsion Lab,

they were talking about finding life on Mars, and one manager had scolded the rest of the manager saying, don't you realize that life on Mars means death for JPL? Because that'll mean Houston. This is,

this is, this is Houston versus Pasadena. Ah. And Mars right now is an all you can eat buffet for jet propulsion. Why is it death? for JPL?

Because it means they'll get all the money will go to the human space flight, not robotics. And by the way...

But well, you would... That's really limited. Well, that's very limited. I don't believe that. I don't believe that, but they do.

That can't be the over... I mean, they have to be smarter than to actually believe that. I'm sorry, but like, you have to believe

that if we found life on Mars, you would get a net increase both on the robotics and human side as far as that... Of course, would.

But that's not the way, if you're an upper management at Jet Proposalant Lab, you might not look at it that way. You're risk-averse. Yes, you are. You're a bureaucrat and you don't get fired. You don't want to rock the boat. I understand all those local incentives, but the idea that you wouldn't have more resources poured into your organization, which ultimately is probably even good for your local incentives

if you were higher up there. But you are talking about this ontological truth that rocks the boat on a social level. And usually the people that work at these places are not selected for based on their, you know, desire to rock the boat. So, yeah. Yeah. I could see how emergently you'd net out anti-disclosure of something like this, maybe. But I still think it's ridiculous. And, like, they should just disclose it. Well, when the amounts of money get large enough, even ridiculous, things that normal people like us would think are ridiculous become concerns.

and they view that things are working fine, why fix it? Why change anything? Can you, because I'm sure a lot of people are going to accuse both of us of being quacky or crazy just because... Oh, get used to that. Of course. I am used to it. But is there anything you can say about updates in tech or science that you've contributed to just in a conventional sense? Oh, yeah.

So that, like, they don't think you're some insane person. Oh, I invented the water-based microwave electrothermal thruster. Really? And using water as fuel. And I got it working, and now it's flown in space successfully. That's amazing. And it uses just distill water as fuel and uses microwaves. Where is it being used?

Well, it's being flown in a spacecraft. They found it with, you know, they fired it in space to raise the orbit of the spacecraft. It was a space tug. What company operational is? Momentous. Momentous space? Yes. So they do like ride share and space tugs?

They're doing space tugs. I worked there as a consultant for a summer and got everything running for them. And so it was great fun. And I have the patent on it. And I think the patents expired. They waited until the patent had expired and then hired me as a consultant to get it to fly. So that was one thing I did. I'm also the only person who's gotten a simple formula for Big G with no dittle factors in it.

I took it to a string theory conference and presented it there and they gave me the ultimate compliment of that conference. What did they say? They got mad at me. That's great. Because they never been able to derive the value of the gravitation constant from string. How do you like the thing about theories of everything, which you have, it's so hard. You know, I'm, like, I'm, yeah, like my buddy Eric Weinstein, he has a theory of everything called Geometric Unity. You have quantum loop gravity.

You have... That's been discredited now. Sure. You have string theory. You have so many theories of everything. And if you're... My theory is not a theory of everything. It's a theory of basically what's observed pretty much.

You have Wolfram physics. My point is, like... Oh, yeah. Well, you know, we're all trying to solve the big problem. Yeah. Einstein unification problem. We're trying to solve, but the string theory people have gotten distracted by adding 11 new dimensions when all you need is actually just one new dimension. Can you experiment? That's actually the thumb on the hand. The fifth dimension. Can you experimentally

prove your theory? Yes. How? Oh, I presented at a conference. We got experiments where we found we could pulse electromagnetic fields and get a local weakening of gravity that we could easily measure. It was like a one part per thousand. It wasn't, you know, we didn't have anything flying around the room. It was basically

like coils, these balloons that we could turn on the power. If you got some physicists from Stanford or MIT or whatever to, you know, try to stress test the experimental protocol, would they have anything they'd be able to say, like a get to discredit?

the experiment? No. So this is what I... Well, I got up, we have three different methods of doing this, and I presented it at the APS meeting, gravity modification. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, and I'm waiting for somebody to verify it because we... It's interesting, and I don't know, you know, I don't know if your theory is right or wrong,

but, like, it's interesting. I speak to a lot of these scientists at prestigious places. Like, a buddy is a PhD, you know. physics at Stanford. And I'm like, you know, talking to him about experiments that could prove various theories of everything. And he's always like, it needs a wow factor. And I'm always like, well, why if it doesn't have a wow factor, but it just like measures out accurately on this thing. And like you can, you can, you can- He's talking about a big budget. No, but it's true. It's like you have all these competing theories of everything. And

a lot of them are attached to scientists like yourself, who seem like they've done credit. things in other areas. So like you can't a priori just write off. But the theory is sort of sitting in this like liminal space where you're like, I got this small effect. And then like, I'm waiting for peer review or whatever. I'm like, nobody else is qualified to peer review it. And like the effects are small. And it's just extremely, it's frustrating. Oh, it is frustrating. But I've learned to become patient. And, you know, I presented it at a conference. and it was well received. I showed everything on how to do it.

What do you need, resources-wise, to make this more consensus? You can do these experiments for about, the simplest experiment you do for about $200. And then the other ones. The simplest experiment you can do for $200. Yes. Are you serious? It's just a mylar balloon

with some toy motor armature hung beneath it. You hit it with about 30 watts of AC power at about 400 hertz, and it will get a little bit lighter, and the balloon will rise. So you'll see weight reduction. You'll see weight reduction, and it's just a balloon. It's just something hanging below it. I have a video of it, and I can, and then we also did,

we hung it from, hung a coil. The best way to do it is use Tesla three-phase rotating power, which is very commonly used now, and a lot of motors for drones. It's very lightweight, very compact, very powerful. And we got things to lose like they weighed 100 grams and we get them to lose like half a gram. Can you explain what's happening to cause the weight reduction?

Yes. I mean, we have what's it called a vacuum Bernoulli equation, which basically says if you imagine people are used to electric lines of force. That's, you know, somebody touching vandigraph generated and their hair all stands up. Those are electric lines of force. The hair basically is materializing those. And then magnetic lines of force, you just shake, put a piece of paper over a magnet and shake iron filings. You see these lines of force from the magnetism. And then gravity has lines of force too. It's basically just, you know, raindrops follow lines of force from gravity.

And apparently we get the lines of force to basically move away from the object and just be surrounded, just concentrated in the areas around the object. And so the object itself feels less gravity, and that's the center of mass. And so if it's like hung underneath our balloon, the balloon will rise because it's more buoyant. You know, it's less, there's less force resourcing the force of buoyancy. Or you can put it on a chemical scale and do it that way. People don't like doing the chemical scale because it looks like, well, maybe the electromagnetic field's interfering with the chemical scale, but we were able to show that that wasn't happening. So in your, in your theory, where does gravity and electromagnetism,

where do they unify? Okay, they unify. The key to, Unifying gravity electromagnism is called the pointing vector. Do you combine electric and magnetic fields, like in a ray of light, it points in the direction of the travel of the light photon, the light ray, and it's the direction of the radiation pressure. The theory I've proposed shows that gravity can be thought of as a form of radiation pressure, and this is also put-off's idea that's and Sakharov's idea that this radiation pressure produced by the zero point fluctuations. If you put two.

Why is gravity constant or proportional to mass if it's caused by zero point fluctuations? Because the mass, in a sense, kind of absorbs the zero point, some of the zero points. So if you have two objects in a room or a weightless, let's say you have a box on the space station, no gravity, and it's a dark box and you put two bright objects in there, they will repel each other due to mutual radiation pressure. But if you turn the box white hot and then have two dark objects in there, they'll actually attract each other because of mutual shadowing

with a one over R squared force, the same as gravity. And that's a conceptual way, but then, of course, there's a plasma physics way where you have two plates charged differently, so that there's electric field between them and a magnetic field running down the plates across the faces of the plates. And everything, every charged particle you put in there, regardless of mass, regardless of charge, all drift in the same direction at the same rate. then if you can't the, if you tilt the plates relative to each other, they all accelerate at the same rate. And it looks just like gravity. And so I wrote the theory around that. One interesting result of it is that when you combine that with the tensor, metric tensor formulation of general relativity in Einstein,

you give that the vacuum weighs nothing, which is reassuring. The anti-gravity effect of the zero-point fluctuations actually neutralize their own mass so that the gravity ends up weighing nothing in my theory. And then, of course, it involves also the fifth dimension so you can show that you can derive the value of the gravitation constant. DARPA funded you to work on this?

Yes, 200 grand. And what happened at the end of that? I handed them a report and they said, Thank you, Dr. Brannierberg. Here's your check. Don't let the door hit you when you go out of the building. They didn't say we think this is valid or invalid. Oh, some of them said that they thought this was quite valid,

and they were very pleased. But the head of the whole program who was signing all, the head of the program, had a very poker face, and he just said, thank you, Dr. Brandenberg, for your help. So I got the feeling that they wanted to know what I knew. I had a DARPA program manager in here named John Blitch, and he didn't say this.

This is my speculation, but he kept having these programs, in certain cases, with nine-figure budgets. Yes. Hundreds of millions. And they seemed to start to get successful results, or at least be very promising at the start. And then they would sort of go into a black box and, like, you know, they would disappear. It happens. It means you're doing good work. So that means you're doing good work?

Because you think it's being funneled into some sort of... Yes, it's going black. Do you think that's gone black? Do you think that's going to the legacy UFO? No, I think it'll all come out. In fact, what's interesting... Well, no, where's that going? Where's the work going, when it gets funneled?

Oh, Site 51. Area 51. Yeah. I mean, they probably found some parts of my theory interesting. I think they had a working kind of engineering, working model of it that gave them, you know, the effects they wanted. But they always wanted to get, you know, a more polished physics model. Did they ever try to recruit you to legacy UFO efforts?

I sense that they were kind of trying to do that at one point. But what happened? I was blackballed by somebody. And that's okay. I decided I was probably fortunate because I would have ended up at Site 51. And a lot of bad stuff happens out there. Who blackballed you, and how did they approach you initially? Oh, well, I was talking to one of the Intel agencies' people, and they...

Can you say which agency? I'd rather not. Okay. And then they kind of invited me to discuss things more deeply. And then I was invited to the headquarters. of this agency and went through a very bruising kind of interrogation about something else. And it was like this person didn't want me involved. And he was trying to make me look like I was a bad person.

And so what was funny is the person who was trying to recruit me, apologized to me before I even went into the room to meet with these people. And he says, I'm sorry, John, about what's going to happen. Basically, he was telling me I had been blackballed. And who was the, and so, yeah, who was the person blackballing you? Do you have a sense? I didn't know his name at the time. I found out his name later, but I'd rather not talk about it. Are you going to talk about it? Okay. It was in the, you know, it was in the lower levels of an interesting building, and I just, you know, it was, all of us have, have good and bad days as scientists, and it was, I, I didn't feel badly about what my answers were, but they, this one

person was very unhappy with me. And so, it was kind of his way of getting me ruled out. And so it was, it was an adventure, but I've, you know, I'd also become aware that a lot of the safety considerations that you find at a normal government facility are not followed. It's like 51. And also... Have you been to Area 51? No, never been there. And, but I've heard of cases of people, you know, being told to dispose of very hazardous

materials, getting sick and getting cancer. And then they ask, well, what was I, you know, what was I handled? that gave me this thing. And they said, you don't work here anymore. You never worked here. This place doesn't exist. And one guy had to take pictures of it from the highway and said, I used to work there. He had to tell a federal judge, see this, all these buildings in the distance in the desert.

I used to work there. And the government attorneys denied seeing any buildings in the pictures. Jesus. I know. That's horrible. It was. And I, so I was very glad I didn't end up there. And they were basically, the people were basically told,

take this stuff out to, you know, the back 40, dig a big pit with a bulldozer, hose it down with diesel, and burn it. Jesus. And then they stood there in the smoke, and the orders were so stools. stupid, it was upwind of the facility. So this horrible chemical smoke got all over the facility. Everyone was coughing and wheezing, and they then developed lung cancers from what it is they were disposing of. And that's when they tried to, and the government then fired them all and wouldn't cover their medical costs. It was just a, it was just a, it was a horror story. And they, yeah, the, the crucial

was they showed a picture of Site 51 taken from some viewpoint on the highway where you can actually see it. And the federal judge said, yeah, I see the buildings there. And they said, that's where we used to work. And the government attorneys said, we don't see any pictures. We don't see any buildings in those pictures. Have you heard of a Z machine? I used to work next to the Z machine at Sandia. What is that? Well, it was what's called a Z-Pinch means Zeta. It means you're running a bunch, a kind of a miniature lightning bolt through a chamber, and the magnetic force crushes the plasma so you can get fusion that way.

And it's a way to get fusion. And at Sandia Labs, they decided to make the chamber really small and the bank of capacitors that powered it really big. We're talking a million lightning strikes worth of power. Do you think you get with sort of high energy physics, directed energy, that sort of thing. Do you think you get weird side effects with time? Because in general relativity, gravity and time are related. And, you know, if you get enough,

maybe, you know, energy output, you might mess with gravity somehow. You know, even if, you know, like that stress energy tense or nine cents equations, you'd need like an infinite amount of energy. But maybe there are ways to amplify that per this Navy scientist, Salpaisa's work. you, via very high amounts of electromagnetism, kind of break space time itself? Oh, I believe it's quite possible. And then where does that lead you, ontologically? Because I... Well, if it gives you warp drive, you can open up maybe a portal to Alpha Centauri.

You know, there's time with a, you know, a wormhole connecting you to Alpha Centauri. So do we have some sort of, like, sub-Rosa space program that involves, like, portals to, like, other, like, star systems or something? By the time you realize we're not the only intelligent people in the universe, and we're not the most advanced because the universe is a lot older than we are, and then you kind of have to adopt a slightly science fiction attitude that, well, kind of everything is possible. Then you kind of finally say, well, what's probable?

you'd say, well, if we had stuff like that, then people would blab about it in their sleep or in a bar or something. But then they do. Right. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we don't know. It's all very, it's, there's a part of intelligence work

that's called roomint. People ruminate over things, but actually no, it's rumor intelligence. Do you know anything? So you would say no or yes on that sort of program? I would say probably not, but maybe. Okay. Like I said, the only times I've been really wrong in my career is when I've told people,

ah, nobody could ever do that. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. You know a lot about what happened at Roswell at 1947. Yes. So what happened there? You know, it's known as the most famous, UFO crash, perhaps of all time, this dividing line, the advent of the nuclear age. It is. It was the beginning of the nuclear age.

World War II had not even been over for two years. Everyone was still on an adrenaline high because of World War II and how it had turned out. And they had a, Roswell was only about 100 miles, I think, from the Trinity site where they tested the first nuclear way. They turned the desert to glass, and it was a plutonium bomb. So the fallout, in those days with people, thousands of people getting killed every day on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, they, you know, they didn't worry about safety stuff that much. So the fallout plume full of plutonium that didn't get burned up in the explosion, and it just was still there, passed over Roswell.

So there had a big strip of uranium, plutonium contaminated soil around Roswell that they conveniently didn't tell anybody about. And so then they had this, the 509th, I think it was the 509th bomber group there. They had all the nuclear weapons on Earth were stored at Roswell. Wow. All five of them. Wow. They had five nuclear weapons.

The entire nuclear weapons arsenal for the entire planet. And suddenly everybody started seeing all the UFOs. That's where we got the name Flying Sautzy. Kenneth Arnold saw them in over a month before. Two months before. And they were all over the country. And if you read Philip Carso's the day after Roswell, the U.S. government went into panic mode

because they started seeing a lot of them down in New Mexico where they were testing the V2 rockets, the delivery system for nuclear weapons, and they had all the nuclear weapons on Earth stored there. And so he said they concentrated their security operations there. They didn't tell the people at Roswell Army Air Base about it, though. They were out of the loop.

It was compartmentalized. So the UFO cover-up, even in those days, was operating as a compartment in the U.S. government. So I talked to the veterans from Roswell. You spoke to veterans? Yes, yes. Are these first-hand witnesses? These were first-hand witnesses.

What did they say? Well, they talked about the wreckage being carried through. They said they found this wreckage nearby. Max Brasel found the wreckage nearby, brought it into town, showed it to the sheriff, and the sheriff told him take it to the base. And so they did. he did and then the people from the base went out and found yes there was this whole football field sized area of wreckage out there and so they said everybody was seeing UFOs so the

base commander who was a very well-liked fellow very popular fellow named colonel blanchard called up the newspaper and said you know look what we found we found a crash flying saucer nobody he had no orders regarding them at all and so so they uh then they published in the newspaper and what happened was a bunch of war two veterans who were in a motorcycle gang called the booze fighters which is a play on foo fighters took over a holster california for a day and had a drunken party downtown and uh that kind of stole all the headlines that weekend uh it was the weekend of Fourth of July. And so then the story came out that they had a crash UFO.

And Blanchard, the commander at the base, got this very angry phone call from Fort Worth, Texas, a big airbase there. I can't remember what the general there was in charge, but he basically chewed his head off over the phone and said, you're not supposed to talk about that. You know, it's a weather balloon. Don't talk about the wreckage.

It's nothing. nothing. He said, we're sending people up there to collect everything. So they said this. And back in those days, the Army Air Corps, it was Army Air Corps. It was not the Air Force yet. It was so part of the Army. My father was in the Army Air Corps in World War II.

He flew flying out of England. And they said this red-haired colonel showed up. Barking orders, you know, several deuce and a half trucks arrived full of troops. They basically took over

Rosalelel Army Airfield for about a week they went and gathered up all the wreckages they could find. They had guys walking along side by side across fields picking up any piece of metal or something

and some guys apparently put it in their pockets you know and so this red-haired colonel kind of took over the base and was known for just screaming at everybody and so then and they flew all the stuff out and they had you know ibeams with hieroglyphics on them and they had all these plates and stuff

they they told me about this stuff and at this conference it was called remember reminences of roswell and it was a bunch of people brought together who were the survivor officers and the daughters of the sheriff and and it was a great experience to be there and I sat at banquet next to these people and and we had a great time and but what happened then was then suddenly everything was gone and life went back to normal and they said they had a the base commander would have a meeting with his chief officers every Monday morning and Blanchard the next meeting after everybody the deuce and half trucks and the screaming colonel had left, they had this meeting, and one of the officers at the meeting says, well, what did you think about what happened the last two weeks? And all Blanchard would do was laugh and said, boy, did we screw up. And now they, that apparently was a bunch of people who were completely

out of the loop. I mean, they were guarding the atomic bombs, but that didn't mean they knew everything the government knew. And at the same time, roughly the morning of Fourth of July, an object crashed on the plains of San Augustine about 100 miles away. It had a big hole in it in the side. And a bunch of people saw it. And then the same red-haired colonel showed up. This was a few days before the Roswell. He showed up at Roswell, but this guy showed up like the morning of the Fourth of July, screaming, orders to everybody, and they gathered up this flying saucer that had crashed there with a big hole in the side of it. And the dead aliens, and there was apparently one live alien, and they got them all and just hauled them away. And there was a team of archaeologists investigating Indian ruins.

And then there were some campers, and this red-haired colonel lined them all up and said that if they told anybody about what they had seen, the government was going to kill them. And their families, too. I mean, it was wartime, warlike secrecy. And you must remember, it was less than two years after World War II. It was loose lips sink ships. Everybody was still operating that way. These people remember seeing the whole sky light up because of the first nuclear test and then wondering what had happened. And then the government, saying, oh, we had an action in an ammo dump. That's what caused the big flags that lit up the entire sky.

That's helpful context. Oh, yeah. So the context of it was everyone was used to secrecy, used to following orders, and used to trusting the government for everything. And so then there were two recoveries, basically following roughly the early, morning of 4th of July, and they were about 100 miles apart. One of them was a saucer with a big hole in the side, and the other one was a field of wreckage, you know, something had exploded in

mid-air. And what I found out was that we had a night fighter during World War II called the Black Widow, was painted glossy black, just like the spider. When the big UFO surge of sightings happened, they pulled all of those night fighter squadrons from Europe and Japan into the United States and apparently into the southwest around Roswell. So it apparently what happened was they had those patrolling over Roswell to protect the nuket of weapons stockpile. Do you think there were bodies found at Roswell? Oh yes, yes. I'm quite confident that they recovered bodies. they even apparently recovered, you know, the reports are they covered at least one live alien. And they were the little short gray guys with the big eyes.

And the vultures and coyotes had apparently eaten some of the bodies too. And, you know, that sounds almost like human beings miscalculating. Apparently because I wrote a book on this recently called Cosmic Awakening, and I have this all documented in there or, you know, as best as you can take the reports and document them. And they, people make mistakes.

Even people in outer space make mistakes, just like humans do. They miscalculate. And not only that, you're trying to find plutonium. They're there flying over Roswell, trying to figure out how many nuclear weapons we have there, how big they are. But there's so much plutonium in the area

that they have to fly really close to the ground to get a good signal. In fact, they're flying two craft close together so that one can get the kind of noise level and the other one will get the signal. And you could just imagine, and there was apparently a very bad lightning storm that night, so here are these people from outer space

flying around. They're trying to get this very sensitive signal to get some good data. And there's lightning storms going on, you know, and it's all in electromagnetic interference, which really bothers like microsensitive electronics, but the PC-61 Black Widow was vacuum tube technology. They were used to flying through tropical. Well, that's the conventional story in Philip J. Corso's account and others is that it's some sort of high-powered radar directed energy thing. I don't think so. It was, uh, they, they were, during World War II, the foo fighters were commonly spotted, and there were all sorts of radar beams flying around. They never reported any crashes then. You know, they, they would have been operating in the Earth's environment with powerful radar beams scanning around.

So that, is that some sort of myth? Like, that's what Stephen Greer and a bunch of other people sort of repeat all the time is that directed, energy weapons is how you take these things out, which I feel awkward talking about, because I think it's a really bad sort of semi-unethical thing, if that's the case. But, no, semi, extremely unethical. But, yeah, you don't think that's real? I know. It's sad to reflect on the fact that there may have been secret clashes between our military and extraterrestrials. And, but... Well, one is where... It's almost like going out at a plastic boat and running into some killer whales and they start ramming your boat.

You know, what are you going to do? Well, often it's like I think we lure them in with nuclear material and then do that. Oh, there's... Yeah, there's... Isn't that messed up? Well, there's... I heard accounts saying that the government wanted as many crashes as... as possible so they could harvest as much technology.

And, you know, if you can't capture one craft intact, you can maybe capture three pieces of different craft and, you know, kind of combine them together and find, you know, figure out the systems. So it was the Cold War. We'd just gotten done with World War II. They were fighting the Korean War. Remember, in 1952, they were overflying,

UFOs were overlying Washington, D.C. And they were still fighting the Korean War in Korea at the time. So it was very much a... I grew up during the Cold War and in the shadow of World War II. And it was, you know, I mean, all my uncles, except for my nuclear physicist uncle, had been in combat, you know, had been in combat veterans of World War II. Some of the most interesting evidence I've found for Roswell is actually that there was a contract between Los Almos and Betel Memorial Institute in 1949.

And it was around Nittinol. And Nittinol is basically this like almost memory metal that, you know, remains unperturbed no matter how much you kind of, you know, put stress against it or, you know, shape shifted. It always kind of goes back into its regional form. And it's really cool. and it was like declassified by Battelle in the 60s. So you have to ask this question, why was it like classified for a decade plus? And then why does Los Alamos have a contract with Battel in 1949, you know, right after the Roswell crash or maybe Aztec crash of 1948?

I don't know. But it lends some credence because Jesse Marcel is the most famous account around Roswell. He was, you know, shown taking a picture next to a weather balloon, which he came out. He was an Air Force intelligence officer. He came out. He's got this funny look on his face. I love it.

In 1979, he came out and he was like, you know, this was a, I basically was part of this cover-up, and that was BS. And in fact, I handled this memory metal. Yeah. And that's what he says. It was a shape-shifting memory metal. So you have the contract,

and then you have the fact that he's saying he's handling this metal. I think that's kind of interesting. Oh, according to Philip Corso, a lot of the stuff recovered from these crashes, especially where Oswell was the seed crystal for a lot of the technology we have now. There's clearly some BS in that book. Oh, sure.

Because he had a co-author, and I'm blanking on his name, but the co-author gave him 24 hours to edit the thing. And so it's like he didn't, you know, it was clearly like somehow, you know, the narrative was controlled in some ways in a way that sprinkled in BS with maybe some real elements. So, but. That's a standard technique, by the way. Oh, it's, that's been the strategy in UFO world. It's why I'm so frustrated, like, doing this show, because I know there's so much real stuff, but there's so much BS.

It's the- It's very noisy signal, as they say. The signal to noise is low. I mean, they have a lot of noise out there, and the government will release pieces of, you know, supposed leaks, and they have what I'd call a distruct package in them. You know, they have something that can be able to prove. That's right. The government hands you a mix back.

and then you have to sort of like, you know, chew through it and it's passage material and it's recruiting, and it's all sorts of, it's very effective strategy, the flood the zone strategy. Oh yeah, yeah, it's flood the zone.

So, yeah, and in the 80s and all, really the 70s. It's also called blowing smoke, you know. I think UFOs, because J. Allen Heineck was,

you know, he was the blue book guy. Yeah, yeah, the astronomer. And he claimed to flip, you know, and you had,

you know, James McDonald, who's this Arizona state, you know, physicist. Yes. Who was earnestly looking into the UFO thing and had his own UFO setting at Savannah Riversite, his plutonium, you know, reactor in South Carolina. And he goes to, and he's serious physicist. He goes to J. Allen Hynick, and he says, you've been, you know, taking part in this cover up.

This is ridiculous. Like, what you saw in Michigan wasn't swamp gas. Like, you know this is BS. And J. Allen Hineke gets all sad. And then J.L. and Hineck, the nominal story is that Jalen He flips to being like reformed and pro-UFO. He had a kind of Jesus moment. I think that's fake.

I don't think that's a real story. Actually, this is really crazy, but Rod Serlin, who happens to be my dad's godfather. And he made UFO's past, present and future. So I think Edwards Air Force Base reaches out to him and like promises him, like, footage of a UFO. And he like gets taken through all these like hoops. jumping through these hoops and he like makes this movie and jocque valet who's jalan hynick's assistant you know and jl and hynick show up in the movie and they're pushing really hard this extraterrestrial

hypothesis that that's what it feels like which jacques valet then sort of moves out of and he he moves more into this kind of interdimensional control system hypothesis angels angels demons that sort of thing which i think is probably directionally more correct or something but at least as i don't know who knows we're seeing a medley phenomenon but you know, they're sort of pushing that. And then there is like a little bit of video from, I think Edwards or one of the other Air Force bases. And it just is super unsatisfying. And there's a pretty good debunk of it online where it's probably just an F4 fighter jet. And like I just, I believe it probably is just an F4 fighter jet. So like I basically think that movie was like

lured in like to buy like. And they wanted Sterling to be involved. They want Sterling to be involved. And then Jail and Hynick also, I just learned this, he, I think, provided the laptop to Paul Benowitz, where Paul Benowitz was receiving alien signals. He's being sci-op by Rick Doty who's an Air Force office special investigations. They put LSD in his toothpaste or something. Yeah. And he gets visited by John. I used to drive into Sandia lab every morning right past Paul Benowitz's office. He had a company called Thunder Corporation.

Wow. It was remote sensing. That was his specialty, ultraviolet, infrared, magnetic, everything. Interesting. And every morning I'd see Thunder Corporation. That looks like an interesting place. And then I found out later it was the scene of this terrible drama of him siding things over. There's a mountain out in the desert at Cortland Air Force Base called Manzano Mountain,

and they store nuclear weapons there. He'd cited UFOs flying over there a lot. and had all sorts of recordings. And the government came to him and said, Paul, don't do this anymore. Quit doing that and don't talk about it. And he told him where to stuff it. And he, then they,

I was sitting there at a Moufan conference where Stan Moore, who had been the original leaker of the MGAG 12 got up and confessed to being a government. an agent whose job was to monitor. Bill Moore. It was Billmore, yeah, Billmore, was the, his job was to monitor the effectiveness of the SIOP operation on Benowitz to drive him insane so that no one would pay any attention to him. And Benowitz ended up committing suicide. I wasn't aware. I heard he died in a mental institution. They involuntarily committed him, and that's what happens. Generally, the government.

government will at least, you know, in a lot of countries, they will just take you out and kill you, but in this country, they will actually approach you and say, quit talking about this. Yeah. Don't, you know, don't do this anymore. And if you don't listen to them, then they raise the ante and they'll put LSD in your toothpaste or give you cancer or something. And, you know, and that's, in other words, that's part of what the government is covering up is a lot of its activity. in preserving this secret. Don't you find that interesting

that there's a jail on Heinek Paul Benowitz connection? I mean, that's pretty insane. I find it's not, I find it sad. Yeah, it is sad. Because Heinek, then being a smart guy, would have to realize what they were doing to Paul Benowitz.

And then Heinek was in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Yeah. And, which, if you, in my book, Cosmic Awakened I discussed was apparently the government celebration of, you know, through Hollywood,

of an accommodation with the gray aliens that they were going to have not only detaunt in the Cold War, they were going to have detaunt in outer space. But that didn't work out very well. And there was this reported military clash at Dulce reported. But the reports, I heard several reports of it in D.C. and Leonard Stringfield talked to me about it. And he said he'd heard three different versions. The only different version, the only difference between the versions was the number of people who got killed,

both human and alien. And he said that, so he believed it, it really happened because he talked to military veterans. Do you think aliens are good or bad? Oh, they're like us. They're some. A mix.

They're a mix. I mean, pick a human version. Do you think they're actually? terrestrial or interdimensional or all? Well, I think most of them are just flesh and blood like we are. They make mistakes like we do. They crash in the desert. The coyotes and vultures eat their bodies.

That doesn't sound like an interdimensional being to me. But at the same time, human beings are partly interdimensional. We have a consciousness that is not, they're parts of the human being that can't really be isolated and analyzed scientifically right now, and that's probably a good thing. But then I, you know, I'm just an Episcopalian.

It was funny. I was a Pentecostal fundamentalist when I was younger. Because of that, I believe in supernatural. Yeah. So there are interdimensional beings, I believe. And what's really fascinating to me is that, The major religions on Earth are cosmic religions, where the supreme being is a cosmic god.

He's not just a god of earth. He's not just a god of human beings. He's a god of everything. And that makes our religious heritages among the major religions, and I'm most familiar with Judeo-Christianity because I am part of that religion, a Christian. somebody can tell it come from outer space and land in my backyard and say well I created you I own you I own this planet and I say well no god owns me I don't know who you are God owns you too even if you don't realize it I said you know look you may think I'm a speck of dust you're a speck of dust to God too we're all equal in sight of God What is God to you? How would you define God?

Well, he's the supreme being. He's the Almighty. How do you follow God? Oh, well, I just go to church. My Christianity's fairly boring. I just go to church and I worship. It's a very personal thing for me and I wouldn't even be doing this unless I felt God wanted me to do it. it's some of parts of it are kind of frightening but when i realize god is in charge it doesn't make me afraid anymore that's beautiful well dr brandenburg i really appreciate your time man this has been

a pleasure and an honor yeah no likewise thank you for the wonderful questions oh yeah i think people really enjoy this uh yeah and also i wrote i will mention yes i wrote a science fiction novel about everything I heard about in Washington, D.C., around the water cooler and the coffee machine, I have people who've approached me from Hollywood now. They're going to try and make it a new movie. Cool. Love it. Well, thank you, Dr. Brandenberg. Thank you so much.

This is a blast, man. Oh, that's great, great. I'm so glad you liked it.