American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - UFO Whistleblower David Grusch Tells Me Everything

Episode Date: October 5, 2024

David Grusch is a former 14-year high ranking intelligence officer who left government in early '23 to blow the whistle on UFO’s. In 2019, he was tasked by the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and Pentagon to investigate UFO’s as part of the Unidentified Anomalous Phenomenon Task Force (or UAPTF). In that context, he slowly started to uncover a covert UFO reverse engineering program being concealed from the civilian government. In June of '23, he outed himself to the public. In July of '23, he testified before Congress. We sat down for hours and talked about the entire history of UFO's, UFO and Atomic secrecy, Presidents and their relationships to UFO's and the insane world of Anti-Gravity research. A Film by American Alchemy. Stay tuned for YesTheory's documentary coming October 1st!!! https://youtu.be/kwsWAQ9sJZE?si=F_aA93kIdqb1bvit Produced in Collaboration with Yes Theory Written by Jesse Michels Directed by Ammar Kandil Produced by Jesse Michels and Bryan Felber Edited by Bryan Felber Assistant Edited by Jack Bullock Cinematography by Shawn Malangyaon Luke Gaie Ian Leach Additional Cinematography by Mario Kidd Production Sound Mixer Tim Brazzell Special Thanks Staffan Taylor Red Panda Koala Garry Nolan Hal Puthoff Eric Weinstein Jacques Vallée Robert Hastings Michael Masters Diana Pasulka Nick Cook Paul Schatzkin Resources for people who want to dive deeper: Dave's Congressional Testimony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgoul4vyDM Newsnation Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUnKRknLVSA&pp=ygUWZGF2ZSBncnVzY2ggbmV3c25hdGlvbg%3D%3D Redpandakoala makes the best documentaries on UFO’s on YouTube and helped me with research for this video: https://www.youtube.com/@RedPandaKoala Robert Hastings, UFO’s and Nukes: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Nukes-Extraordinary-Encounters-Nuclear/dp/1544822197/ref=sr_1_1?crid=ZPCX9IU3U2FG&keywords=ufos+and+nukes&qid=1694391607&sprefix=ufos+and+nuke%2Caps%2C284&sr=8-1 Nick Cook, The Hunt for Zero Point: https://www.amazon.com/Hunt-Zero-Point-Classified-Antigravity/dp/0767906284/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2U1F3Y0CRYXHS&keywords=the+hunt+for+zero+point&qid=1694393431&sprefix=the+hunt+for+zero+po%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-1 Paul Schatzkin, The Man Who Mastered Gravity: https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Mastered-Gravity-Mysteries/dp/0976200023/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1KHPWW5QDJ0J3&keywords=the+man+who+mastered+gravity&qid=1694389452&sprefix=the+man+who+mastered+gravirty%2Caps%2C567&sr=8-1 Diana Pasulka, American Cosmic: https://www.amazon.com/American-Cosmic-D-W-Pasulka-audiobook/dp/B07N31G98W/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VB99MKVCL86U&keywords=american+cosmic&qid=1694393567&sprefix=american+cosmic%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-1 Jacque Vallee, Passport to Magonia: https://www.amazon.com/American-Cosmic-D-W-Pasulka-audiobook/dp/B07N31G98W/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VB99MKVCL86U&keywords=american+cosmic&qid=1694393567&sprefix=american+cosmic%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-1 Jane’s Defence Weekly: Article on Anti-Gravity: https://www.airplanesandrockets.com/magazines/young-men/g-engines-coming-young-men-november-1956.htm Twining Memo 1947: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20797978-twining-memo Brian Muraresku, Immortality Key: https://www.amazon.com/Immortality-Key-Uncovering-History-Religion/dp/1250207142 Robert Becker, The Body Electric: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Electric-Electromagnetism-Foundation-Life/dp/0688069711/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2I2M2CXM6NNH7&keywords=the+body+electric&qid=1694395270&sprefix=the+body+electr%2Caps%2C661&sr=8-1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs to help him see if he can afford it. Co-pilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work.

Now, Hank has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Co-Pilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365Copilot.com slash work. Three men who previously served in the military are set to speak publicly about what they saw in the sky and heard behind close doors. All right. One more? Guy in the light tanse.

They have let in 15 people from the public. There is David Grush, who's a former intelligence official. He has knowledge of a covert government program to recover crashed alien spacecraft. You solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help you guide. That is David Grush, a former Afghanistan combat veteran and 14-year high-ranking intelligence officer. Hey, nice, nice me.

Hey, you got a light, man. In 2019, he was tasked by the Pentagon to investigate UFOs as part of the unidentified anomalous phenomena task force. I had no interest in, you know, UFOs or whatever, but I thought it would be kind of an interesting thing to see what was going on. During his investigation, Grush started to uncover a program that was being systematically hidden from him, the American public, and our elected representatives. We're done with the cover-up, and we're going to get to the bottom of it, deadgummit.

A program whose mandate was to find and retrieve crashed UFOs, and attempt to rebuild them into functional vehicles that humans can fly. And I'm sitting there and like, okay, well, this is a thing. Thanks to new UFO whistleblower protections, Grush gave comprehensive documentation about these programs to the Inspector General in the summer of 22. He had brought people on the secret UFO programs directly to meet the Inspector General's team and had even given the staff the names of the aerospace companies involved in these programs and the locations where the UFOs were ostensibly being kept.

I found my complaint. I told him who that interview and they ultimately were like, holy shit, this is incredible. In June of 23, he outed himself to the public, giving News Nation and the debrief exclusive interviews. Do we have bodies? Do we have species? Naturally, when you recover something that's either landed or crashed, sometimes you encounter dead pilots. Then in late July, he testified before Congress in Washington, D.C. The hearing was a wild moment in history.

Yup, there I am with a Marc-hand deal from the second best YouTube channel online, Yes Theory. If you want instant inspiration and exposure to untold human stories across the world, throw them a subscription and stay tuned for their UFO documentary, including Dave coming soon. I've known Dave for about two years when we were introduced by a mutual friend who had served on the Air Force with him. And through many a phone call,

he's put up with my wild speculations on the truth behind UFOs. Sometimes I'm like hanging up the phone, and I'm like, I don't know about this guy. I think he's really... It was in his wit. No, I was kidding. With the lead-up to the hearing

and in its aftermath, we were granted exclusive access. Let's bring it in. We actually held the first and only public hearing with Dave and 20 young Yes Theory fans in Washington, D.C. after the congressional time. We traveled with him, hiked the mountains of Colorado, got covered in dust on ATVs, hung out with some llamas. What's the name of the llama? Playboy. Playboy. I think the name of the llama was boy. And of course, had a long-form conversation. We discussed the history of covert UFO

research programs, their connection with Robert Oppenheimer and the Manhattan Project. why presidents and elected officials may have been shielded from the UFO secrets in the past. And of course, his best theories as to how these UFOs fly, who their occupants are, and why they're here. While you'll see a candid side of Dave that you've never seen before, he's still somewhat limited in what he can and can't say. I don't want to get into specifics. I don't want to get into that. Yeah, I can't really. Can't go really beyond. Can't make a personal...

Yeah, I don't know. If anything slips that wasn't pre-approved by the Defense Department, he could literally go to jail. But there's a lot of pretty insane new stuff he does say. Manhattan Project, they were kind of the first blue book. Do you think Bob Lazare is full of shit? Have we made any agreements with any of the aliens? Do you have a sense of, you know, the species?

And if you combine our open source research with his revelations, you can actually piece together a sort of coherent picture of what's going on. with UFOs and human attempts to reverse engineer them. Buckle up, I guess. So without further ado, this is the atom bomb of American Alchemy episodes. It's been marinating for months and it was executed with Manhattan Project-style secrecy. All of the crew members weren't allowed to disclose what they were working on. But I'm so excited that it's finally dropping and you are here to see it.

So get your radiation goggles on, hit subscribe, and brace yourselves for a brain dump of everything you've ever wanted to know about UFOs from today's American alchemist David Grush. Different parts of the brain have different activities. But you know that, don't you? Maybe you should interview me. Hey man. Hey, how's it going?

Crazy day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what happened yesterday? I didn't read the news. My name is David Charles Grush. I was an intelligence officer for 14 years. I was my agency's co-lead and undendipendiped. Identified anomalous phenomena and transmedium object analysis, as well as reporting to the UAP task force, UAPTF. And eventually, once it was established, the All-Domany Resolution Office, Arrow. Why were you placed on the UAPTF?

And the UAPTF, for the people that don't know, is unidentified anomalous phenomena task force? Yeah, the UAPT task force director funneled a request through the Ops Center like, hey, is there any Intel officer for your, you know, your agent? would be willing to be a representative on the task force to kind of fill that void with expertise from NRO and the Air Force. And my boss got the email, he forwarded it to me, and he's like, do you want to do this? And I thought, well, I'm a reservist.

Like, I can put it on my performance report that I worked on like a task force. I thought it'd be kind of an interesting thing to see what was going on. When did you start to realize that you weren't just kind of looking at, you know, anomalous phenomena and trying to classify it in the air,

but you were being sort of systematically lied to about an internal reverse engineering program within the government. Yeah, I mean, certainly going into it, I thought it was going to be, you know, air trash, some perzegn national, natural phenomenon. I remember starting interviewing some military members that saw some really profound stuff, like, you know, large, you know, triangular craft, you know, football field size that they, you know, hovered over them. And I was like, whoa, you know, and these people were very serious, very upset to actually divulge that, you know, a personal thing. You know, it's nothing classified. It was a personal observation they had on a drive to work. And then, you know, one thing led to another. I had, you know, certain colleagues in mine that I know for years approached me, you know, close the door in my office and was like, look, you need to know about some other stuff.

You guys are not, you know, getting access to, you know, and, you know, kind of led down this. Why do you think they talked? Why do you think they spoke to you? Yeah, I think a lot of these guys were, you know, they've kept the secret for so many years. They knew me. They knew what I was looking into. You know, we reported to the, you know, the Deputy Secretary of Defense in Congress at the time with the UAP Task Force. And I think they wanted some change.

At least that's what they expoused to me is. Why do you think they want to change? You know, they felt that they were kind of limited in bringing people in, the support. they were getting. Their treatment was harsh sometimes. And I guess they weren't really feeling the love anymore. What's the first moment where you saw irrefutable evidence that what you're dealing with is truth, is reality? I mean, there were certain military cases. You know, we were analyzing that I just really couldn't explain in a prosaic fashion. What can you tell me about these craft? Why do you know it's exotic? based on the very specific properties that I was briefed on, you know, isotopic ratios that would have to be engineered for it to be at those levels.

And then, of course, you know, read some, you know, intel reports that were provided to me in that regard. And, you know, I took that and I went to the agencies that, you know, wrote those reports and asked for access. And when they deny you access, then, you know, it's a thing. So it's, it's, and that's what happened to me time after time over a couple years. So like there wasn't a singular moment where you're like just open the folder and you go, what the fuck is that? It was kind of like a slow burn culmination as I was processing it, you know, allowing my worldview to open. And yeah, I don't know if there was a singular moment.

I think it was, you know, some of the really, really trusted high level people we talked to when they, you know, stared us straight in the face very seriously and, you know, confirmed a lot of this. information. And the quality of people we talk to, if they ever go public, it'll blow your mind who we talked to. I was like, wow, I can't believe I'm talking to X, who's a really important person, and they're confirming these certain details, and they're saying, like, you know, we need to protect us at all costs, and they're giving me kind of the whole speech about it. And I'm sitting there, it's like an out-of-body experience. I'm like, okay, well, this is a thing. I don't report to anybody, and there is no plan. I'm not a part of some, like, slow drip disclosure or anything.

If there is a plan, I'm totally unwitting, and holy shit, they've, like, controlled me in a very passive manner that is, like, master cost. Right. But, yeah, I'm not a part of some weird shit, you know, that, uh. Did you ever at any point try to suss out whether you were being lied to? Because all of these people are coming from the same programs, and so presumably there's some level of coordination between them. So how do you kind of get through and just make sure that they're not, you know, meeting

in some back room saying you say this to Dave, I'll say this to Dave, you know. Yeah, no, for sure. So, like, I thought maybe it was like a joke or something. Maybe it was like a sigh up on me or something. I don't even know. And then, but the, you know, near 40 people we talk to a lot of the guys, I've known my entire career. And like, they wouldn't lie to me. I have like a friendship with them. And for them to, you know, disclose to me that kind of stuff. And it ended up being a false would have totally torpedoed the friendship. And I also, when I, out of my way to find people who don't know each other either. And I had other higher ranking colleagues in mind go talk to other people that I didn't

even personally talk to. That group, of course, we took all that. And I'm like, all the people who conducted those interviews, I made them get interviewed by the inspector general because we're crossing our teeth here because this shit is crazy. And I was, I mean, you can never be perfect. But man, I was so freaking careful to make sure I wasn't getting fed some bullshit. If they were in coordination together on a disinfo campaign, holy fuck, I shouldn't even be an intel officer

because I should have sniffed that shit out. In the last couple of years, have you had incidences that have caused you to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues? Yes, personally. There's a Chris Mellon story where he's supposed to meet with somebody on the program and he has the meeting all set up.

And two weeks before the meeting, he says that the guy just randomly has a heart attack. We were about two weeks away from meeting when he died, when he had a heart attack. What was the last special access program that leaked? They don't generally leak. People are like, oh, dude, wouldn't it be broadly leaked or whatever? I'm like, as somebody who is super cleared to a lot of that conventional stuff over the years, stuff never leaks. Yeah. It doesn't come out. There are plenty of things that are pretty serious, they're broad, that have never seen the light of day.

Of course, like, you're going to tell someone that their entire life and their family and their kids, like everything is in danger, it's, it doesn't feel too far-fetched that someone will keep a secret if it, if it tries their life. Look, dude, you're not getting promoted. Yeah. You're going to lose your job. You know, the psychology of the typical career government worker, right? Stable paycheck, pension, maintain clearance.

So if any of that's threatened, you know, they're going to capitulate in most cases, right? The threatening nature of some of their indoctrinations where they're like, this is treason, you're going to Leavenworth. if you ever tell anybody not in the program. And oh, by the way, what's the penalty for treason? Oh, right. Execution, right? And I was like, well, well, fuck it.

I'll be the mouthpiece for you. I'll be the leader, I guess. And I will shepherd you privately to the appropriate people that could be a recipient of your disclosure. You don't have to go public, but I'll do the thing. I mean, you know, it's not just me that, you know, has come forward really because, I mean, Schumer, Rubio. all those guys are like, look, a bunch of freaking high-level officers came to us, and either they're crazy or the shit's real. Most of these people, at some point, or maybe even currently,

have held very high clearances and high positions within our government. And then Schumer was compelled to write that big 64-page. Yeah. Amendment that talks, no shit. Non-human tech, recoveries. And you're the majority leader who's tight with the president, putting out a law that will be signed here hopefully this fall that really puts the fucking executive in a bind.

Yeah. So, I don't think that that was done in a vacuum. I think the one thing that can get the left and the right together is bloat in the military industrial complex. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're in, you know. Yeah, nobody likes that. I don't think members of Congress don't like getting the door shut on them either.

So they want that information because they represent the constituency. And that was the Matt Gates story. Several months ago, my office received a protected disclosure from Eglin Air Force Base indicating. that there was a UAP incident that required my attention. We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew. He was basically denied access to a crew that had seen kind of a diamond-shaped formation of orbs.

He should be fully clued into if, you know, it is terrestrial in origin because he's overseen Darpa. He's on the Armed Services Committee. If you could just name anything, titles, programs, departments, regions. I'd be happy to give you that in a closed environment. I can tell you specifically. Thank you. Maybe in a, if we could get in a confidential area,

skiff, we could talk about that. But unfortunately, we were denied access to the skiff. A lot of the narrative for the whole thing was that you were denied a skiff. What does skiff stand for just for people? It was a specialized compartmented information facility, right? Which basically means that you guys would just get into a secure place where you can share.

Yeah, that's, you know, a facility that's credited to talk at the, you know, top secret sensitive compartmented information level. And, yeah, the members were pretty incensed that I believe it was like they couldn't reserve a skiff and then they couldn't give me a one-time read-on back into the right accesses since I left the government. Do you have any sense of why that was denied? I don't know. No, I don't really have insight.

It was something they mentioned to me, you know, it was security or something denied it. If you believe we have crashed craft stated earlier, do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft? As I've stated publicly already in my News Nation interview, biologics came with some of these recoveries. Yeah. Were they, I guess, human or non-human biologics? Non-human, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program. One sort of bombshell sound bite from the hearing is Congresswoman Nancy Mace asked you about biologics. Ross Cuthart in the News Nation interview asked you about pilots coming out of these crafts.

Do you want to just speak to that a little bit? Yeah, I mean, it's, it is a mind-blowing side of it, right? It's a little easy to imagine, you know, an artifact or whatever. But when you start talking about, you know, the biological side of it, it really throws you for a loop, psychologically, it did for me. And, you know, I talked to the people that, you know, were on that aspect of the program, if you will. And, I mean, it comes to the territory.

I mean, buckle up, I guess. I call them pilots because that's like our vernacular. What they, I don't know what their actual job was. Non-human intelligence. Yeah. But they had bodies. Yeah, I mean. Were they alive?

Were they dead? I don't want to get into specifics. Yeah, I know a lot of that stuff. Out of curiosity, why are you allowed to say that NHI pilots came out of the craft, but you can't go more? Well, that's all I put in the pre-publication stuff that got approved.

I mean, I could go back and ask for more, but like I said to hear earlier, man, like... Yeah, not your place, not your job, yeah. And it's helpful context for the audience to realize that you literally have like these contours with what you have to operate within... Any specific knowledge I garnered when I was on the other side of the door.

If I want to talk about that publicly, everybody who has had a job like I have has to submit it to a thing called Dopster at the Pentagon, DODP Publication and Security Review, even if it's about this stuff. Like, I know that sounds insane, but you literally have to say, like, this is what I want to talk about.

Why do you think they approved it? Catch 22. So they'd have to self-identify and highlight their concerns to redact. So the office who would propose a redaction, say it's a three-literation. agency or whatever, right? They'd have to be like, this office objected to you saying crash retrievals,

here we're citing the security classification guide, no. And then you can litigate that, right, to get it unredacted if you think that's an inappropriate application of security. If it got redacted like that and it cited what organization and what security reason it is, I would just publish that. And then the public can, you know, make its own interpretation why, you know, the U.S. government's withholding information about that kind of thing.

and wanted to sequester my speech. So it's a catch-22, honestly, for them, and damn if they do, damn if they don't. I just wanted to put enough out there, touch on all the most sensitive parts, like the biologic side, and, like, things that really need to come out. Yeah.

But I don't want to overly disclose, because it's not my job, but enough to, you know, put the flag out there that we need to elevate this. This is serious. Some of the uncomfortable stuff, like the biologic stuff, like I mentioned during the hearing.

Yeah. You got to realize some baggage is coming with it, besides, you know, the Indiana Jones, you know, warehouse thing that everybody thinks. Why do the politicians, like, why do people who are higher up feel like they need to hide that, like, evidence? Or, like, I'm just, like, the root cause, like, why is this, like, a topic that's so...

Yeah, I mean, I can only know what the mindset was, you know, multiple decades ago, and, like, anything in government, their resistance to change. So this is the way we set it up. You remember, trust in government was high back in the 40s, and then also society was less secular, so they're worried about the religious ontological shocks as well. And they never really developed a, we'll call it, disclosure plan for what it's worth. And they just were like, this is the way it's been, and we're going to keep it that way. And we don't

want Russia and China to be exposed to any of this info. And, you know, we don't want to give them an edge. And unfortunately, it's that kind of low energy thinking. If you got to ask one question to ask someone who is not alive anymore, that you feel could answer a lot for you. Who would you pick and what would the question be? I would probably ask Sarbacher, Oppenheimer, and be like, what was your thought process in the 40s and 50s, you know, scrolling this away? I mean, besides overlaying the Manhattan Project secrecy. Because Oppenheimer was the one who created the classification that included the UFO stuff. Oh, all those guys.

The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy and some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets. If you read the definition of special nuclear material in the Public Atomic Energy Act in the 1954, it basically states any material that releases any kind of atomic energy. That would be retrieved crash material. So it's kind of a sneaky way. No, it is. If you actually read the Atomic Energy Act, if something is not a nuke, but it has radiological

energy coming off it, you know, alpha, beta, decay, whatever. Same secrecy. Same secrecy. Until now, we haven't really had an exact understanding of the mechanisms of UFO secrecy. We do get a few hints throughout history. though. In 1947, in the aftermath of frequent UFO sightings across the United States, Nathan Twining, the head of all aircraft development for the Air Force, wrote a famous letter.

He writes that the UFO phenomena is something real and not visionary or fictitious. Everyone today focuses on this part of the now-famous Twining memo, that top brass at the Air Force is conceding the reality of UFOs. But the far more interesting part of the letter is the post script, where he wrote. He writes about the possibility of American programs trying to build crafts with these capabilities. He writes that any developments in this country along the lines indicated would be extremely expensive, time-consuming, and at the considerable expense of current projects, and therefore, if directed, should be set up independently of existing projects.

If you were the military-industrial complex and had to keep a top-secret UFO reverse engineering program fully shielded from elected civilian representatives moving in and out of government, which past programs might be your inspiration. The Manhattan Project. Manhattan Project, they were kind of the first blue book. You know, they were getting UFO reports back in the day. There were some people I'm colleagues with that, like, their grandparents were actually, you know, the UFO report people on the Manhattan Project.

And I remember being told that, I'm like, really? Holy crap, that's crazy. You know, there's like a whole other side of the Manhattan Project. This is a wild revelation. Blue Book was the Air Force's official program tasked with investigating UFOs in the 50s and 60s, but it was basically a propaganda for the Air Force, explaining away and downplaying the phenomena for the public. Here, Dave is saying that there might have been a real, deeper program than Blue Book,

studying UFOs at the time, and it was probably very tied in with the Manhattan Project. Legendary French UFO researcher Jacques Valet told me the exact same thing. Project Blue Book was the best I could do at the time because they felt they had a real project going on that was secret. The Manhattan Project would have custody of it, and then it would go into the Atomic Energy Commission, and then it would go into the Department of Energy, which has its own line of clearances.

But where were these top-secret UFO programs taking place? Well, the first hint we get might actually come from the quintessential UFO story, the Roswell crash, in 1914. As the story goes, in 1947, mysterious debris from a crash was retrieved by a rancher named Mac Brazell. After collecting the wreckage, the Roswell Army Airfield issued a pretty insane press release, stating that a flying disc had been retrieved from a local ranch. But within 24 hours, the military announced that the saucer had actually just been a weather blue. Cut to 1978, Lieutenant Colonel Jesse Marcel said that this was all.

all just a cover story to divert public attention away from the truth, that the Roswell debris was extraterrestrial tech, which contained bizarre hieroglyphics and malleable memory metal. According to him, the materials were eventually taken to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio. This actually makes sense. Wright-Pat was the place that the military would take enemy equipment in order to reverse engineer it. In fact, just a few years earlier, the base was used to successfully reverse-engineer. a German Pulse jet engine.

When prominent elected government representatives would ask what was going on at Wright-Patterson, they would get shut down. It didn't matter who they were, senators, presidential candidates, even presidents. If you didn't have a need to know, you were on the outside. I called Curtis LeMay, and I said,

General, I know we have a room at Wright-Patterson where you put all this secret stuff. Can I go in there? in there, I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder and helped me. Cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question. It's like, well, what's going on? Why would General LeMay act like that to a sitting senator?

So unless you're George H.W. Bush, Bush 41, who is director of the CIA, as the president of the United States, you probably don't even know. Yeah, unless you've, you know, done the blood oath and you were like the CIA director or something privately previously. Unless you have to stroke a pen, assign like an executive order or something, well, why would you have a need to know unless you literally, as the commander in chief,

need to know it to make a decision? What else was housed at Wright, Patterson? Well, it would become a nuclear engineering test facility and an anti-gravity research center. It also was the site for Blue Book, the anti-UFOs sci-op that the Air Force ran in the 50s and 60s. So when you're running a secret UFO program, you have people working on the UFOs,

and then you have people working on throwing the public off the trail and basically ensuring that they have no idea what you're doing. The official Air Force reply has long been that there is no cover up. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use indeed-sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates

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You know, I've seen some other conventional programs. You can compartment it so much. You know, some people don't know really what they're working on. Yeah. Only the people that have the top level accesses can look down on all facets of the pyramid, as we say. And that hinders progress. and then certainly with this subject,

when you're trying to crack an unknown unknown, that kind of obtuse security doesn't help either. When you say unknown, unknown, you know, is it the USB drive to a caveman analogy where it's like the caveman doesn't know information theory, doesn't have a computer to plug the USB drive into, and we just don't even know where to start in terms of reverse engineering things?

Yeah, it's like other people have given analogies like giving Galileo a T-I-83-plus graph and calculator, They open it up and they see circuitry and they're like, well, what is even this? I don't have a concept of a transistor. But even that or like a monkey with an iPhone, you kind of know how to, yeah, if you open it up, sure, you're confused, but you kind of know how to press the buttons and you realize there's this graphical interface or whatever. That seems easier than Caveman with a USB drive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, where are we in that? Yeah, I mean, some of it is, it's hard to gauge how far in advance it is because you're just assuming a certain linear progression. You know, I think some of this is, they made a nassum total leap that, you know, put them over the edge to a different kind of plane of. That's pretty fascinating, like a different timeline almost. If I was a betting man, some of this NHI, they're similarly as advanced as us, but they've just made,

they've, what is it, asymmetric evolution or whatever. They, they want a different path where we made nuclear weapons and stuff. They ended up making this, like, civil propulsion kind of equivalent discovery where they're able to do this now, but they're actually not. that much more advanced than you and I. I always found interesting, you know, sort of the monolith in 2001 Space Odyssey, which is this sort of thing placed on Earth that it inspires tech innovation. It's almost like John Mack would talk about a lot of these alien sightings being slightly more

advanced but barely comprehensible tech for the time, almost inspiring tech innovation. I often think of it as laying breadcrumbs in a direction. The communication could be you think you're really smart because you blew up a weapon down the road here. Now, you know, look at this. Right, right, right. Well, it's just like, you know, we went from, you look at our own human development. You know, we immediately, once we cracked the atom, I mean, holy crap, nuclear power, nuclear weapons. You know, we went from, you know, orders of magnitude of energy extraction, right?

Up to, you know, 10 to the 6 tons of TNT. equivalent. And that's kind of what we're talking about is like we're like one, you know, discovery away to, you know, maybe manipulate space time or whatever. Based off of the information that you've been preview to, is there any indication that these UAPs are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities? Yes. And by external observation, I'm sure that could be a fair assessment, yeah. Yes.

The nuclear UFO connection is deeper and more bizarre than you can ever. imagine. Remember that vice story that ran in 2022 about a town in Japan that's obsessed with UFOs? Well, it's a place called Eno, and it's right next to Fukushima, where a 2011 earthquake triggered a famous nuclear power meltdown. Or take this incident in 1994, 62 elementary school kids at the Ariel International School in Zimbabwe said that they saw a silver craft descend from the sky and land on a field near their school. Well, guess where the aerial school was? And you know, an area of school that was near uranium mining site? That is right.

There you go. Yeah. But maybe the best collection of evidence around the UFO nuclear connection comes from a very creatively named book called UFOs in nukes by Robert Hastings. He started to investigate and just speak to all these radar operators. And a lot of them claim some pretty crazy things around seeing UFOs around nuclear bases. Over the past 37 years, I have personally located internet. interviewed more than 120 of these former or retired military personnel. Do you have Robert Salas at Malmstrom saying that the whole base was actually rendered inoperable?

This time he was screaming into the phone saying they're looking at an object, a red glowing object. Yeah, the sights were going down. Like one by one. Very rarely does a missile malfunction and I don't think any much more rare would be two at the same time, but never ten. You have Bob Jacobs at Vandenberg in 64. He's a photo instrumentation specialist. They were launching dummy nuclear warheads off of Gatlas 5 missiles and seeing a UFO kind of wrap around it and take it down. And I said, it looks like we got a UFO.

You have hundreds of accounts of these missile man radar operators at nuclear sites who have no incentive to lie. In many cases, the incentive are on all cases. The incentives split in the other direction, saying that they're seeing stuff. Well, no, the missile ears, you know, they're on what they call PRP, personal reliability program. Like, they have to, like, report it.

They're like, you know, take an ibuprofen, for God's sakes, because, you know, they're a key turner for nuclear weapons. These missile years go through the most stringent of mental health exams to get their jobs. They're literally the people we task with hitting the button that sends a nuke. By definition, they are the picture of mental health. And they are all steeped in a culture that frowns upon attention-seeking. Time and time again, these missilemen would see UFO's near nuclear facilities, and without fail, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations

would show up men in black style, confiscate the footage, threaten the witness, and swear them to secrecy. And he said, Lieutenant Jacobs, you are never to speak of this again. It never happened. From Hastings work, we now know that UFO sightings were happening all across American nuclear production, missile storage, and deployment sites. plutonium enrichment sites like Hanford Washington and Savannah River site in South Carolina, to nuclear stockpiles at Fort Hood, Texas, and killing base camps.

From Los Alamos to Sandia to Malmstrom to F.E. Warren, the list goes on. What is the connection with nuclear? Is it the kind of benevolent protector theory that don't want us to destroy ourselves? Or is it some weird, like they're mining us for something and so they want to protect their resources? Or is it the power unlock thing where we could really rip space time and maybe be able to travel like they can travel. And so, you know, nuclear power is the axis along which we're making progress towards that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it might be as simple as like it's an attractant, like a fly or a mosquito to a blue light, right?

It could be something as simple as that. I mean, it's so hard because to put yourself in a different sentient shoes to understand intent and all that. I mean, could be probing, could be reconnaissance, could be just, you know, mere curiosity. yes, you know, oh, they're only, you know, two or three orders of magnitude away, energy extraction from, you know, you know, manipulating space time and an occupier, you know, warp drive type thing. And maybe they're interested in that, too, to understand our development as a civilization. I mean, without having, you know, a penetration into their oot loop or whatever, we'll never really know. It could be all of the above. Yeah. And it's really impossible to really ever gauge in time. The controller told us that these objects had been observed for over two weeks coming down from over 80,000 feet, rapidly descending to 20,000 feet, hanging out for hours and then going straight back up, for those don't realize above 80,000 feet, space. It's just this cat and mouse sort of recursive unsolvability,

where it's just very hard to classify. It's almost like playing with you a little bit. Even Commander David Fraber in his account was like, the thing felt like it was like breathing and looking at me and knew. You even said it, you let it slip in the... It was like it definitely was aware of our existence. I'm like, how do you know that, man? You're not in the UFO's shoes.

But I understand what he was saying, which is you can sense when somebody's looking at you. Yeah, I know. I've had some folks I talk to that had their own kind of up-close kind of sightings. They said that they got that vibe too. And who knows if that's psychosomatic or what? But they did get a vibe like that too. When you stare into the abyss long enough,

the abyss stares back. Yeah, exactly. And then, of course, I've had a very smart guy. I was like, well, did Darwin care to fully conceal himself when he studied the finches? And it's like they observe, they don't really care, and they don't really care to interact, but they're just here to observe. Is that your bias, that it's sort of an anthropological, zoological model where they're, like, studying us and we're in this kind of petri dish kind of thing? Yeah, I think, you know, I'll give credit to Lou for the whole grill in the cage and, you know. throw it a banana, throw it the key, and see if it could unlock the cage.

And maybe that's what some of these crashes were. And it wasn't really a mission failure, if you will. It was maybe some seating. This is a total theoretical framework here. We'll never really know. See what you can do with this. Or the key is nuclear power or something. And it's like the gorilla has, we have the key.

Another analogy that Eric Weinstein loves to use is, he talks about North Sentinel Island, which is an island of aboriginals who basically have not made any contact with civilizations off the coast of India. And the Indian government basically just lets them do their thing and kind of respects them. And take this analogy, if the North Sentinelese started developing nukes, maybe the Indian government would start to pay a little more attention. To the extent that there is interference, I think one anomaly that's important, to talk about is it seems to be like there's a lot of electromagnetic radiation that comes off of these crafts. And I remember talking to Gary Nolan and he mentioned that he was kind of given a file by the CIA.

And he was tasked with looking into this and it was two things. It was people who had anomalous UFO experiences and it was people who had experienced Havana syndrome. Diplomats and spies began to hear sounds and fall ill with a mysterious illness. that people struggled to explain what became known as Havana syndrome. And in both cases, you have these kind of severe electromagnetic radiation effects, and often differences in the caudate nucleus and potamon, which is in the basal ganglia, the dorsal striatum of the brain, the scarring. But also the neuronal density of that area of the brain

would cause somebody to even make sort of contact. But do we have any theories on kind of the electromagnetic radiation? I mean, certainly, if we were to look at it from like a relativistic perspective, well, that sounds like visible band light being blue shifted into the ultraviolet, and you're getting literally a sunburn. And if you look at an Occupair type thing where, you know, lights getting lens around the craft, et cetera, stuff should be blue and red shifting. So things coming towards you would actually red shift spectrally.

And the people getting like burns, so that's ultraviolet. that's like ionizing radiation. So that would be light being blue-shifted into the ultraviolet as it's lensed across the bubble that the craft creates. And so we are seeing artifacts that seem to show that they're basically manipulating space time. And I guess that's why you get this sort of skipping across time effect or something. It looks like the things are just, you're sort of, you're literally folding space time, I guess, so you can get from point A to point...

You're riding a wave, basically. You create a wave, and you're on top of the tsunami wave, and you're riding across space-time. It's fascinating. And then, of course, there's kind of the other thing is, you know, if it's like an Einstein-Rosenbridge thing, you know, two points on a piece of paper, and you fold it, but like, but the way they're jumping around and skipping

is if you're riding the wave, it looks like you're moving very rapidly and, like, punctuated, kind of movements because think of an accordion and those way the waiver writings the accordion when you flatten out the accordion like flat space time yeah yeah you would smoothly move across but i think we're we're stuck with like einstein stuff was amazing and you know nobody's really i mean there's obviously people with you know string theory embryo all these other different physics theories you know quantum gravity other theories but you know there hasn't been something that's you know unified all the the

the weak and the strong force, et cetera, and that's an ongoing thing. And I think, you know, finding the Higgs boson is going to be the big answer. Yeah. We'll see. So speaking of string theory, it feels like it just hasn't shipped a product. You have our best and brightest off and really smart people getting into this sort of field that, you know, maybe you can detect black holes with strings. But generally, it's just not that useful. Well, string theory, I mean, mathematically, you know, I get it works out, right?

but like most of the stuff you can't empirically observe because the strings are so small and subatomically, there's just like no way of- It's 11 dimensions. There's like no way of verifying that. It's a nice, I'll call it like overlay or that maybe this, maybe this is reality, maybe it's not. I think it's fencing GR, you know,

general relativity and quantum field theory. But this brings up an interesting question, which is can we go down the tree trunk of physics and then find another bridge? branch. Clearly, quantum physics with nuclear and hydrogen bombs as its byproducts, was becoming dangerous. It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. After the invention of these apocalyptic weapons was true fundamental physics then concealed in deep black aerospace, while public-facing physics was sent into a cul-de-sac so it could do less damage?

Were there actually updates in physics, maybe mid-century, that were not disclosed to the public? Okay, I realize this sounds kind of insane. But hear me out. Imagine that this billiard ball is a proton. The golden age of relativity was a wild forgotten time in the history of American physics. This was a period in the 50s

where the study of anti-gravity, yeah, you heard me right, anti-gravity, experienced a dramatic resurgence of interest. Not just among quacks, among real physicists. Since then, there has been a steady but constant improvement. Roger Babson, a patron of science, was obsessed with finding the solution to anti-gravity. His Gravity Research Foundation held a popular essay contest, which garnered contributions from many of the top minds at the time.

Meanwhile, another industrialist, Agnew Bainson, started the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, also dedicated to the study of anti-gravity. His Chapel Hill Conference in 1957 included top physicists like Bryce DeWitt, Richard Feynman, Peter Bergman, Freeman Dyson, and John Wheeler, all there to discuss the role of gravity in physics. As physicist Louis Witten would go on to say about anti-gravity in the 50s, it was in the wind, meaning it was everywhere. He said, what are you doing about anti-gravity? And I said, well, I'm not against gravity. Witten actually worked in Martin Corporation's anti-gravity research unit. That's right.

They had an anti-gravity research outfit. It was called Research Institute for Advanced Studies, or R-IAS, for short. And Martin Corporation, of course, would later become Lockheed Martin. Lewis Whitten's direct boss at RIAS was a guy named George Trimble. In a 1956 article found in Jane's Defense Weekly, George Trimble said, were already working on nuclear fuels and equipment to cancel out gravity, and added that the conquest of gravity could be done in about the amount of time it took to build the first atom bomb.

By the time the 60s had rolled around, most people had kind of forgotten about anti-gravity. It quieted down because no way ever got anywhere, or it quieted it down because it did get somewhere and it went black. Yeah, it is kind of weird where, as far as I know, in my kind of topological physics history knowledge, where, you know, there was all these anti-grab groups up until the early 60s, and then they, you know, totally vaporized.

You know that there's physics knowledge held by aerospace companies that is not known. There certainly is materials knowledge. Materials, well, okay, material science. Which involves topological physics or whatever. It's hard to say whether anything real was discovered in the realm of anti-gravity, or if it went black. But when aviation journalist Nick Cook tried to meet with the then-Legrofts, then long-retired 80-something-year-old George Trimble through a friend of his at Lockheed Martin,

this was the message he received back. Quote unquote, I don't know who this old man is, or what he once was, but he told me in no uncertain terms to get off his case. He doesn't want to speak to me, and he doesn't want to speak to you. Not now, not ever. I don't mind telling you that he sounded scared. Did deep black aerospace secretly make a huge breakthrough in anti-gravity? Well, when a worked for Martin in the 50s, Lewis Witten specialized in nonlinear algebra and topological physics, the two things that you'd need to investigate gravity, and maybe how to beat it. He also did contract work on gravity for Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. The reason there was a laboratory at Wright Field was to find out what we were doing and to help us do it.

And I got a contract for Wright Field to do it, to do gravity, which I did very happily. And who is Lewis Witten's son? Ed Witton. Just the most formidable proponent of string theory, maybe of all time. Do you think that string theory, which Ed Witten worked on, was intentionally a bridge to nowhere? I have privately said to you that string theory was a very odd development because it both allowed physics to proceed as if it was doing something new

while breaking no new ground in the physical world in which we live. I don't really know if you were trying to stagnate the field, string theory is pretty brilliant. And remember that Chapel Hill conference that's thrown in 1957 by Agnew Bainson, who's obsessed with anti-gravity? Well, Lewis Witten was there, and the conference helped establish quantum gravity, of which string theory is an offshoot. In an interview with the American Institute of Physics, when anti-gravity gets brought up, Louis Witten says, a guy named Townsend discovered that there was a type of bismith that was repelled instead of attracting. There was a vice president of the Martin Company who brought that up.

He said, I read the about a guy in Indiana who says the Barack of Bismuth that shows anti-gravity. And where have we heard about bismith with possible anti-gravity properties before? That's Gary Nolan, Stanford microbiologist and Nobel nominee, who claims to have UFO crash parts with isotope ratios that don't occur naturally on Earth. One of his pieces that we looked at together when I visited was Magnesium Bismar. Bismuth layers of less than a human hair

supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced aerospace vehicle. Nowhere could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these. And who's this Townsend guy, Whitten's referring to? Witten had to have been talking about Townsend Brown. one of the country's leading anti-gravity researchers at the time. Yeah, and there's a guy named Townsend Brown,

who had a theory that if you took two charged plates and then you put something neutral between them, the neutral thing would sort of gravitate a little towards the positively charged plate, and you could basically figure out anti-gravity. From the outside, Townsend Brown sort of looks like an amateurish, mid-century physicist and failed inventor, exploring the kooky world of anti-gravity, just to end up failing,

and creating the intellectual property behind the ionic breeze air purifier. I'm not joking. But a great biography called The Man Who Mastered Gravity by Paul Schotskin tells the real story. He parachuted behind enemy lines into Germany in 1944 and started looking into the German UFO reverse engineering program. That's crazy.

OSS and MI6 super spies Bill Donovan and William Stevenson, needed the Allies' preeminent anti-gravity scientists to investigate the notorious foo-fighter phenomena. These were bizarre orbs that looked like intelligently controlled ball lightning popping up all over Germany in the early 40s and messing with Allied fighter pilots. I couldn't find a ton of corroboration outside of Schotskin's book on this story. But here's why I think it's true.

We do know for a fact that Eisenhower sent General James Doolittle to investigate Swedish ghost rockets. These were tons of UFO sightings in Sweden and Finland in the immediate aftermath of World War II. Curiously, Doolittle then went back to the United States just to found the Lindbergh Foundation, which researched novel aviation propulsion methods. So I wouldn't be totally surprised if Townsend Brown was tasked with the same thing with food fighters. I mean, there's some other stuff, too, that I can't talk about that was way before that you're like, oh, shit. But what did Brown's work in anti-gravity have to do with UFO?

While his gravitator looked exactly like a flying saucer. He found that circular craft were better for that application than wing craft. And behind closed doors, Townsend Brown was obsessed with UFOs. He even created NYCAP, the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. When Townsend's daughter, Linda Brown, and his biographer requested the scientist's records from the Navy, they were at first very uncooperative, and then eventually they hinted that a lot of Brown's work was still, But why would Brown's work be classified if he was just a failed hack? The National Secrecy Act prevented scientists like T-Towns and Brown from commercializing

or even publicizing any technology which could potentially be interpreted as having a military application. Well, we know from Schotskin's biography that Brown actually had meetings with the highest-level officials in American Atomic programs. People like Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, and General Curtis LeMay, both deep insiders when it came to Atomic Secrets. Townsend Brown's daughter Linda even recalls that he was often taken home in a black Cadillac, driven by a man that she would eventually come to know as Robert Sarbacher. And where have we heard that mysterious name before? Sarbocker, somebody purportedly involved in the stand-up of the stuff that I uncovered, right?

But if you look deeper, things get even weirder with Brown. In the naval records that we do have, it shows that Brown was suddenly terminated by the Navy in 1942, with no explanation despite strong performance. Two weeks later, he mysteriously pops up as an employee at Martin Corporation in Burbank, just 50 miles from where Skunkworks is founded a year later by legendary aeronautical engineer Kelly Johnson. Skunkworks was created to house Martin's most advanced secretive work. Over 80% of its current projects are still classified. Is it a coincidence that Townsend Brown joined Martin Corporation a year before its founding?

And guess who else funded Brown, none other than Agnew Bainson, the same anti-gravity financier who helped send physics into a dead end by popularizing quantum gravity. Okay, okay, Downs and Brown. Remember that I want to look that up. I've heard it in one of the documentaries, I believe. Because there was this golden age of relativity in the 50s, and then everything sort of went silent. And I think that's an interesting access for you guys to look into. Okay, this is all interesting, but I know, right? We don't have a smoking gun that any of Brown's work actually got implemented.

by deep black aerospace. Well, that's actually not true. We kind of do have evidence. In March of 1992, Aviation Week broke a story about the B2 stealth bomb. It used an electrokinetic effect in its wings producing a b-field-brown effect. The B-2 surfs its own electrostatic wave,

the negative cloud chasing the positive wing. This is an exact description of Townsend Brown's work, and the B-Field-Brown effect is literally named after him. And the B-2 was built by the merged Northrop Grumman, whose major investor, Floyd Odlem, was the same guy that invested in Townsend Brown's company, guidance technologies, in the 60s. I guess Townsend Brown isn't just the wacky fan guy anymore. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th,

the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamava Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. UN must be 21 to enter. There's just like this parallel history. It's very tightly coupled to what is known publicly, paperclip, etc., but there's just like other side of it that a lot of it dealt with the UFO, UIP issue in earnest.

Operation Paperclip was a secret CIA program that took more than 1,600 former Nazi scientists and engineers and placed them in senior leadership roles in American military intelligence and space programs in the wake of World War II. Germans made more progress than anybody at the time just in aerospace generally. The V2 flying rocket was 20, 30 years ahead of anybody.

Yeah, M. 262, jet fighter and the whole Wunderwaffe arsenal. And one has to ask, why did we have such a pressing need to get Warner von Braun and Arthur Rudolph and all these guys? The NASA Saturn program was literally a transplantation of the Nazi program. Why was there such a pressing need to get all these people in the U.S.? And maybe it had something to do with the UFO thing. Who knows? Because Warner von Braun was also a very trippy guy. Remember that story about Townsend Brown parachuting into Germany to investigate food fighters and Nazi UFO programs?

Well, maybe Operation Paperclip had a little more to do with UFOs than meets the eye. Yeah, paperclip's pretty nuts when you think about it, like ethically and morally. You had people that were war criminals. Yeah. People who were going to be tried at Norenberg. Yes. They took off that, and then they snatched them and brought them back to the U.S. And a lot of them became seniors of what became the CIA and, you know, NASA.

And it's like, yeah, I don't know if that would have happened nowadays. I feel like we would actually not be able to turn a blind. Oh, there's no chance. Yeah. Wereny von Braun oversaw a brutal, mostly Jewish slave labor camp where tons and tons of people died. Yeah. And then he went on to literally run our space program.

It's pretty interesting history. Yeah, like his boss, like the German general that, you know, Brabant worked for back in Germany, you know, came over and was like very high up and I think it was NASA. After so many fitnesses have seen the so-called flying saucers, their existence cannot longer be denied. You know, it's kind of like getting red-pilled in The Matrix. It's like, whoa, holy shit. Reality is like way crazier and weirder than I thought.

There's more lucky people from the program watching your channel. That's hours. Maybe, maybe. I can tell you that for sure. They're like, ah, this Jesse guy keeps making speculations. He's coming closer and closer. What's the thing is if you have somebody who has a great intelligence on this, you should probably bring them in and not, you know, leave them out there speculating, right?

If you're on the program, no, no, no. Mine's strictly the nightmare type. Reports of flying saucers are nothing new. From the beginning of recorded time, men have been seen unexplainable things in the sky. Someone of you told me the other day about this saucer, the flying saucer. Someone said that word before it became in movies or something. We had a public hearing with a yes family that was brought up. Anyone want to...

Yeah, Kenneth Arnold in 1947, two months before Roswell, was looking for a downed cargo plane in Mount Rainier. He saw this kind of... Like saucer skipping or something like that. They were in a flying V formation. But yeah, I think the point of that was in culture, the word flying saucer was not derived from fiction. It's the other way around. It was like people's, like our depiction of aliens

and flying saucers were actually were derived from people's real life stories, not the other way around. And that's always a misconception about... Yes, but this is an important conversation. I don't know if you have an opinion on this, but books like American Cosmic by Dana Pesolka and Passport to Magonia by Jacques Belay, do talk about how the noble mythology of the time, whether it's the religion or media, do play somewhat of a role in sort of shading how you recollect an experience. So the classic example is Betty and Barney Hill in 1961. Outer Limits was a CBS show that had played 11 days before that abduction experience.

And it showed aliens with eyes that wrapped around the rims of their head. And that's exactly what they sort of described. Yeah, anal and interlinked overlay. It's almost like we discussed before where you had like, you know, witches sitting on the chest of people feeling paralyzed and maybe in medieval times. It's like, you know, our overlay is this classic alien kind of motif, but like you look at what they said before.

It's the same phenomenon, basically, people, their analytical overlays different, so they, you know, describe it in a different way. Right. Leprocons, fairies, elves, angels, demons. We just superimpose our own reality onto the thing. Yeah. It's almost like you have like a meme library in your head,

and then you have this higher platonic thing that's happening, and you attach the closest meme, meme that you can to it. Yeah, exactly. People have been seeing the same stuff. Like, so the Tick-Tac of today was the flying butane tank. Totally. Of the 1950s.

And you can find declassified Air Force OSI reports that are publicly searchable right now. Yeah. Talk about these like flying white butane tanks. Right. And, you know, the food fighter phenomenon in World War II. And then if you were to go way back, you know, you see stuff that's basically described the same in antiquity as well. So whether it be extraterrestrial, some other kind of origin, you know, cryptotrestrial, some of the other stuff that people postulate, we deserve to understand, you know, truths of the universe.

And if we have the answer one of life's questions, right, you know, what happens when we die and are we alone? If we can answer one of those, but it's kept in secret because they believe the public can't handle it or it hinders this like, you know, Cold War arms race that I talked about in my first public interview. That seems pretty messed up to me. What do you think about elite interest in the topic? So the Rockefeller's funded Stephen Greer in the 90s. And John Mack? And John Mack.

And they funded the Princeton Parasicology Lab. Then you have Chris Mellon, who's a Mellon, obviously sort of interested in the subject. I think there are letters between Lawrence Rockefeller and Hillary Clinton in the 90s where he's sort of pushing for disclosure. That's right, because I think was David Rockefeller also involved in that? And it was like a Camp David meet up in the 90s. And she's holding the book by Paul Davies, Are We Alone? Yeah.

And there's a photo of that and it's wild. Certainly, if you use the Rockefellers as the most prominent example, there's certainly called Old Money elite interest. And maybe it's because of their interest in frontier science or who knows, I've never talked to the Rockefellers. I have no idea what spurred that interest on. But they were certainly pushing for transparency on the issue, and that's one of the most influential families in America, right?

It is important in any scientific process to try to maintain the null hypothesis for as long as possible. And actually, Coon, who wrote a structure of scientific revolutions, talks about this. And he was friends with John Mack, who was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department, who tried to maintain a null hypothesis and say, I don't think this is real because he was actually a private clinician.

started to see people who would bring up these alien encounters. And I think the thing that's really important for people is just the amount of credentialed people that once they start to have an open mind and actually genuinely inquire, and usually these people start to take it seriously. Yeah. Like I have a good friend Eric Weinstein, who's, you know, he's a pretty well-respected, you know, public intellectual. You know, I used to just wax poetic, you know, look, like this is real. I promise you this is real. And he used to think, he's, I think, I think his,

quote is like, this is the one area where you had brain damage. You would not come off of this point, and I was convinced that you were brain damaged on this one issue. No, I really was. And now, you know, look, I think, you know, he oscillates, but he's pretty deep into the history to the point where he's bought in that this is at least something worthy of investigation. Yeah, I mean, there's certainly some scholarship there, whether it be Jacques Valet or, you know,

Dinoposolka recently. And Jean-Villet built the earliest version of the internet, you know, ARPA net, or he helped it, you know, Doug Engelbart. And there's a serious astronomers. People have serious background. Yeah, I mean, I was a really hardcore intel guy working on some of the hardest, most deep black stuff. And I didn't really think much about UFOs. But then I started looking into it, you know, I have like people in tears, like, you know, naval officers, pilots, etc., wanting to tell me what they literally saw, you know. and, you know, either a lot of people

are having psychological breaks. There's a lot of weird weather phenomena that manifest themselves in physical, tangible, like metallic-looking craft that are close. That seems crazy to me. And I'm like, well, these people deeply believe what they saw, and I have to take them seriously. So we need to figure out what this phenomenon is.

Carl Jung wrote a book about flying... The book is called Flying Saucers. And he talks about flying saucers as the kind of mandala, the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness. And it's this proto-psychological desire for us to, like, have this kind of revelation of like knowing everything all at once. And what was crazy about is he wrote the book, and he was like, this is just kind of a symbolic psychological archetype.

And then afterwards, he became convinced that the phenomenon was actually real. There are things flying around up there that we haven't fully identified yet. Roswell's a very interesting place with a lot of people that would like to know what's going on. There's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are. We saw a bright light appear in the distant western skies. Okay, at this point in the video, you might be thinking there's actually a decent amount of evidence for UFOs. So why are people so reflexively and often smugly dismissive of the topic? No to predictions, no to aliens.

Well, on the one hand, it's a fair reaction. There are a multitude of profit and attention-seeking charlatans in the space. People who have absolutely no interest in pursuing truth, who embellish stories and sell snake oil for a living. Then, of course, you have your counterintelligence crew, throwing constant smoke bombs and trying to confuse you and throw you off the trail. But maybe the most important point when discussing the insane stigma around UFOs is that some of the biggest, most prominent skeptics

over the last 50 years, the people who've done more damage to open research on the topic than anyone else, were, you guessed it, from the atomic programs. The same atomic programs, Dave is saying, are responsible for initially studying UFOs and then establishing their secrecy. I find it really interesting that you have

some of the most prominent debunkers, guys like Menzel, guys like Condon, H.P. Robertson. who were kind of big shots, who also worked on the Manhattan Project. Condon was involved. Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, yeah.

Interesting. He worked with Vannevar Bush a lot. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Edward Euler Condon was a mid-century quantum physicist, and no single person is more responsible for the marginalization of UFOs

than this man and his famous Condon committee. This 1966 investigation into UFOs was paid for, but supposed, to be uninfluenced by the Air Force. But we now know that Condon was actually coordinating closely with Air Force officials like Colonel Robert Hippler, who had expressed clear written desire that all previous UFO research be shown as a waste of money.

The Condon Committee's report dealt a death blow to UFO research in the second half of the 20th century. The backstory here is that Condon was very deep in the world of atomic secrets. Not only did he study with Robert Oppenheimer under Max Born in Germany together in the 20s, he's sometimes credited for helping Oppenheimer pick Los Alamos as the site for the Manhattan Project.

Condon knew the area well, having grown up around the corner in Alamagordo. He also recruited a lot of the project's early staff and wrote the Los Alamos primer, a document all employees had to read before arrival. Then, in 1946, Condon helps draft the McMahon Atomic Energy Act, which again, Dave is literally saying, establishes the framework for UFO secrecy. The McMahon Act of 46, which was the predecessor to the Atomic Energy Act in 1954,

the guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy and some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets. So Condon was probably clued into high-level UFO secrets from the start, and how many people were deterred from studying UFOs because this one high-pricege quantum physicist told them it was a waste of time. So was Condon just an insider who knew the truth behind UFOs? And was he used by the original atomic UFO programs and by the Air Force to downplay it? Bob Lazar said he worked at a secret facility near Groom Lake,

where alien technology was being reverse engineered. Do you think Bob Lazar is full of shit? Bob Lazar is by far the most famous case of somebody who publicly claims to have secretly worked on reverse engineering UFOs. He outed himself in 1989, and since then, has remained remarkably consistent in his story, even while detractors cite that he possibly faked his educational credentials at MIT. He ended up actually recently going on Joe Rogan, and it's still like this bizarre split where, like, so many people are like,

he was right, he was right, and people are now using your testimony to say he's totally vindicated. And then the verdict's still out, because a lot of UFOologists or UFO people that I really respect are just, just pretty skeptical. So I don't know if you have a tank. I mean, I'm certainly different than him. I came at it from a different angle. I have no information on Bob Lazar. It wasn't in the scope of my looking into it kind of activities.

If he actually ever experienced what he experienced, I literally have no idea. Honestly, I go back and forth on whether Bob Lazar is telling the truth all the time. On the one hand, the guy sells illicit chemicals on a sketchy website, invested in a brothel and seems like a petty con man in criminal. But on the other hand, he definitely has some engineering prowess. He strapped a jet engine to the back of his Honda. He may have actually met with Edward Teller,

and he probably did do some work at Los Alamos. Finally, his story just seems so consistent. He really doesn't seem like a guy who thinks he's lying. Look, there's a lot of weird stuff about the Bob Lazar story. His story's been absolutely consistent since the late 1980s. It's a classic intelligence tactic to give people 95% correct information and 5% false information. You can track the flow of information by the uniquely false details in it.

And you can easily discredit the leak. Bob Lazar would hang around some interesting characters, guys like John Lear, who flew cargo planes for the CIA in the 70s. Lear definitely seemed to spread disinformation in other cases. He was also the son of Bill Lear, inventor of the Lear jet, who may have been involved in the original UFO program. My question is, did John Lear manipulate Lazar into spreading a bunch of pure disinformation. And so Lazar's claim that he worked

on UFOs was all a complete lie. Or was Lazar just a disclosure test for Lear and others around him? Let's see how the public reacts to this guy. He's easy to discredit, but mostly telling the truth. Personally, I'm not sure what to think and would love to meet Lazar myself and ask him what he meant when he told Jacques Valet about the liquid he was made to drink and the memory lapses it caused and about his relationship with John Lear. There's probably a small contingency out there that says the U.S. needs to maintain primacy. You have this exotic tech that we've found, you know, in the case of whatever crashes that

have occurred, we don't know exactly what to do with it. Maybe we've made more progress early on than we have now. We need to kind of refresh the talent pool and maybe out ourselves as a program and front-run immunity, you know, through legislature to do that. What do you say to those people that? Yeah, because I mean, that's something I tried to expouse a News Nation. I can't remember how they edited it or whatever. But it actually hurts national supremacy to keep it obtusely secret.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You can't even bring the right people on it. You know, say the best theoretician in quantum chromodynamics just happens to smoke marijuana so you can't get a clearance and you can't get on the program. So it actually hurts, you know, national security by not over. opening it up, at least in an appropriate way that we're not compromising anything that somebody could use illicitly to hurt people. But at least, and that's why I use the nuclear physics example. Yeah, the program should want to out itself. Yeah, it's like, yeah, protect what could be weaponized,

but generally allow it to be studied openly. But there's absolutely like no cogent plan that I'm aware of to do so. Congressman, do you think that these reverse engineering programs have made any progress or do you think yeah i do i just don't think they can they're going to scrape because they did we wouldn't we would own the skies if they had it isn't it in isn't it in their best interest to just get immunity for themselves and try to refresh the talent pool if these people are you know it's they're all old and it's completely compartmentalized and they haven't made you know in the wilson they're completely arrogant they're above the laws and they're above the why aren't they releasing the Kennedy policy nobody's alive 60 years but every president you think there's a connection

between that and this? I've heard that. I would hate to speculate. I'm more just, just, I want the service. Just give me the stuff. Gotcha. Thank you. We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence,

whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. I have no idea if JFK's death had anything to do with UFOs. But there is a letter that was supposedly declassified due to a Freedom of Information Act request in 2006. It was from JFK to the director of the CIA at the time John McCone. Its date, November 12, 1963, just 10 days before the president's assassination. In the letter, JFK is asking for the full data on unknowns or UFOs so we can coordinate more tightly with Russians in space, and they

don't mistake these UFOs as acts of American aggression or reconnaissance. I've called the guy who used the Freedom of Information Act to retrieve this document like five times now, and he's not playing ball. So I have no idea if this document is real. And an anonymous archivist that handles a lot of JFK's letters say that there are some anomalies in the letter that make him skeptical. So who knows? But I will say this is a very weird non sequitur from former CIA director Mike Pompeo

when asked why the nearly 5,000 JFK files still won't be released to this day. Why'd you fight to keep the JFK file secret? These don't hold the dark secrets that everybody wants to just hold up as the bogeyman. I saw the UFO files too. We've got bigger problems. What do you say to the people who say this is a sci-op and they just want black budget funding? So the information might be right, but they just want to, you know, to be able to have increased surveillance in the skies and in space or whatever.

Yeah, that comes up, I think, with some people that have, like, an issue with it where you got to remember, like, national security threat is the way to get Congress alerted and engaged. That is like the operative word that Congress responds to. The narrative that this could be a threat. Because look, to be honest with you, I think this stuff's been going on for thousands of years. And so it does frustrate me a little bit when it's like, you know, we need to be able to shoot these things down. It's like, I don't think they're really, you know, an immediate existential threat as my strong by it. Yeah, you might not be the smartest idea to try to fire back when they're not firing at you.

They'll take you out real quick if they can fly faster than light and do all these stuff they're doing. Yeah. Probably not a good idea, right? We probably shouldn't attack the zookeeper. Yeah, exactly. Don't attack the zookeeper. That's probably a good idea.

Stick to the facts, write it down, and don't speculate what you think it is because it will school your decision. The thing that frustrated me about the hearing was, look, I think Ryan Graves is awesome. And I think, as is Commander David Fravor, I think they're showing a lot of courage. But it felt like their simple takeaways, we need more sensors and we need a better collection process and a more standard taxonomy, all of which are very important. But it's this kind of lazy data story that I think comes from Silicon Valley where it's like if we just get a bigger database of the UFOs, a machine learning classifier will somehow spit out the answer as to what they are. Yeah, the only thing you're going to get from external observation, at least from the lens I look through, right, you're going to get what they call activity-based intelligence ABI. You'll figure out where the true hotspots are,

but it's not the end-all-be-all-b. If you're trying to find a needle in a haystack, you don't want to add to the haystack. And I think we are over-indexed on impaired. Yeah, over-saturated with data. Over-saturated with data in some ways, and it could be probably better standardized, so I'll give them that.

But we're under-indexed on theory. And to my mind, we have one pretty strong theoretician and Jacques Valle, who really, if you read like, If you read The Invisible College, which he wrote in 1975, that is the tip of the spear now in terms of theory on UFOs, which is wild to me. Jacques Valet might be the most preeminent UFO researcher in the world. In fact, he was Steven Spielberg's inspiration for the eccentric French scientist, played by Francois Truffaut in Close Encounters of the Third Time.

Yeah, nobody's really replaced him at that level, and especially hypotheses that are even a little more testable. But what the average person might not know about Jacques is that he's obsessed with time travel. In fact, on the set of close encounters, he got into an argument with Steven Spielberg. And we had a long discussion about what UFOs could be. And of course, for him, the main point of the movie

was entertainment, and it was appropriate for the UFOs to be extraterrestrial visitors. Jacques wanted the UFOs and the aliens in the movie to be represented in a more nuanced, and actually linked with time travel, not just space travel. I think that the extraterrestrial hypothesis is actually more far-fetched. I think the idea that another species would evolutionarily converge to be bipedal, to have kind of the symmetric, you know, bi-lateral symmetry.

Yeah, because if we look at like the aerial school of that, you know, if we believe the hundred school children that saw bipedal, you know, hominid-looking kind of an, then that seems pretty rare to have the same development where they're going to... It's either extraterrestrial and we're seeing bioengineered beings that look similar to us for ease of communication and acceptance, maybe? And that is almost like an avatar for the intelligence behind, you know, the ghost behind the machine or whatever. They were engineered specifically to look like that and it wasn't natural.

Jacques' air in the UFO theory world is a guy named Mike Masters, a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University, who believes that aliens are basically just humans from the future who've figured out time travel and are going back in time to visit us in the present. We see them less often because we're just one small blip on their geographic map of time. I like this sort of, you know, beings from the future hypothesis for a few reasons. So there's actually a concept in evolutionary biology, called neotony, where your distant offspring looks like your kids currently.

And if you think about a lot of these sort of close encounters of the third kind, they often are described as, you know, the beings are sort of childlike in nature. If you think about how we're actually evolving as a species, you know, our bodies are becoming somewhat vestigial. You know, we have an abundant amount of resources that are being distributed to us. We don't need them like us. Our morphologies are going to change. Just wither away a little bit. And then our brains are becoming actually more important.

Decision making is becoming more important. If we have any sort of latent intuitive powers, that's gonna be more important. And these things are supposedly a little more telepathic. Their eyes are sort of slits. You're gonna have more screen time going forward. And so it does feel like that's kind of the way that we're evolving. Aliens are weirdly non-interventionist.

In many of the abductions that get reported, it's almost like they have a prime directive to not say, or do too much. In fact, in many cases Mike Masters studied, the abductees had to sanitize themselves, shower, or do chemical rinses before boarding the alien craft. This would make sense, as time travel involves all sorts of issues like the grandfather paradox. You can't go back in time and kill your own grandfather. Otherwise, how would you exist in the present? Any little thing you do in the past might dramatically change timelines or trajectories in a way that breaks the present. So maybe this alien non-interventionism points further towards the time travel theory.

Many abductees also report lost time. Again, this might be explained by abductions occurring in another temporal dimension. Time's crazy because it's defined at some levels as the Planck length, right? It's the time it takes of like a photon of light to cross the Plank length. And you know, Plank literally, after discovering the Plank length, thought that that would be the best way to communicate with it. aliens because it's literally the shortest length. I don't know that. Yeah, it's like the unit. He would joke about that.

Yeah, and it's all relative, right? It's, you know, based on your reference frames, especially if you're near a gravitational source, you know, general relativity, you know, teaches us that, you know, clocks either speed up or slow down, you know, based on whether near a gravitational source or not, you know, one over R squared over distance, you know, it comes off. And we've proven that having cesium clocks on airplanes in the 70s, we actually showed atomic clock differences based on force of gravity. Yeah, time is really not a constant.

The way we conceptualize time, it's not constant at all. And yet it's the felt sense of it is constant. Maybe true ontological reality, time is way trippier than we realize. And maybe that speaks to this sort of alien thing, especially because people seem to see crafts and aliens when they're in specific kind of heightened states of consciousness.

And so maybe, maybe. time doesn't work quite the way we think it is, but in ordinary consciousness, we sort of snap it into this kind of linear classical epistemology that we experience. Yeah, that's what I was trying to expanse upon when I mentioned the holographic principle. If you want to imagine 3D objects such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2D surface, that's the holographic principle. So you can be projected, quasi-projected from higher-dimensional space to lower-dimensional. It's a scientific trope that you can actually cross. Originally, the whole graphic principle was created

to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon in a black hole. But, like, maybe that's what we're seeing is we're seeing higher dimensional stuff casting shadow into our space, just like how we cast a shadow on a two-dimensional surface, which is, like, the sidewalk, right? Well, if you were on Flatland,

you would have no idea that this, like, crazy 3D monster was, you know, out there. But all you're seeing is the shadow, and it's called quasi-projection. And maybe some of the UAPs are not even, they're here, but they're not actually from out there. I cannot show you a tesseract because I and you are trapped in three dimensions. But what I can show you is the shadow in three dimensions of a four dimensional hypercube or tesseract. This is it.

Like if it exists outside of 4D, you know, time space or whatever, say this is, you know, you have a 2D universe and this is a 3D object. If it intersects, you're just going to see a sliver of it. So you'll just see a disc. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost.

Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your ocean front room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, Not surprises. It matters where you stay.

Hilton, for the stay. That would make sense, I think, in two ways. One is that a lot of people that seem to see crafts and sometimes, quote-unquote, go inside of them, the inside is bigger than the outside. So Jacques Valet describes a woman in San Jose seeing this flying saucer. She walks in.

She's in a movie theater all of a sudden. There was one case in good old San Jose. A woman had seen something over her house. It was a big disc. And I say, well, when you went inside, you said, you know, there was this being, and the being took you on a staircase. I say, where did the staircase go? Well, the staircase went up the side of this big round room. And say, how would you compare it?

Well, like a movie house, you know, like an amphitheater. I said, that's bigger than your house. Why is the inside bigger than the outside? And so this is a constant sort of, again, if we're looking for patterns, and that's like a good way to kind of theorize, you know, that would make sense if it's the shadow casting sort of thing. And that, well, that almost sounds like a physical translation from lower to higher dimensional space.

That seems to be what's going on there. And I don't know if we have a good framework on how to smoothly do something like that. I don't even know. I think if anyone would know about aliens on Earth, it would probably be me. He's topping on the alien bandwagon as of the last two days, by the way. Well, he did, and then he goes, somebody should win Sciop of the Year Award or something. So, I don't know.

It's like, what do you think, man? What's your take? He was just riding the fairwood first tweet of like, I'm not going to say they're aliens, but, like. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure what's going on with him. I think he's probably a little pissed because he's using chemical propulsion. Yeah, exactly. Combustion-based propulsion.

We need the Howard Hughes of our generation to get access to the good stuff. I've always found it fascinating that America's real-life Iron Man, its most impressive industrialist, seems to be so sure of the fact that we're in a simulation. The odds that we're in base reality is one in billions. But doesn't like entertaining any possible sightings of aliens. If we're in a simulation, why aren't you doing any speculating as to who simulated us? I mean, if they show up, I'm like, great, okay, now this isn't your information. The conventional story, especially after the Copernican Revolution, is that the

the Earth is a lucky accident that allows for life. You do have sort of weird aspects of reality, like the anthropic principle. Like the idea of Planck's constant was slightly different. Or hydrogen bonded with oxygen in a different way that didn't form these perfect crystal structures. Ice wouldn't float above water. Usually solid sink below liquids. And we wouldn't have a habitable Earth.

And so you have all these sort of things in physics that if they were slightly different, we wouldn't have this sort of Goldilocks, perfect habitable zone. Yeah, I mean, Earth's like very finely tuned, right? The temperature gradient is just enough. Is that a coincidence or did aliens set this up? I don't know. You could even think of like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle where you can't measure position and momentum

at the same time as like a computational caching function. Oh, interesting. You can't compute everything. Yeah. Your RAM's not that good. And maybe if we are in a simulation, our perceptive capabilities were artificially limited by the simulators.

We only see between 400 and 700 nanometers of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We only hear certain frequencies, that's why dog whistles are inaudible to humans. If we really wanted to create safe artificial general intelligence, we might initially experiment with artificial life so limited in its perception that it doesn't even know we exist, so it definitely can't hurt us.

Forward-looking infrared caught the famous Tic-Tac video in 2004. What if we had infrared sensors, or for that matter, gravity wave detectors in our pockets. How many more sightings would we have? That explains why UFOs are disproportionately picked up by military bases. It's the robust multi-sensory detection that you find on those bases that makes all the difference. There is no understanding of alien visits that has them only visit restricted Navy airspace

to be picked up by pilots. It's an observer in collection bias issue where you have all the eyeballs and all the sensors in those areas. Sure, that's a good point. You know, if you were to do an activity-based intelligence across the globe, if we actually have an open and honest kind of collection system. Yeah. I think we'd probably see some hot spots that don't even make any sense.

You know, I don't like throwing shade, but like Neil McGrass Tyson, right? Oh, yeah. He's made up his mind. I read his tweets, and I'm like, dude, you have a PhD in physics? Where's your curiosity? I can't even believe. There's no evidence that would convince an authentic skeptic. I have credentials too.

Yeah. happy to go toe to toe to with you. Yeah, if he wants to debate me, I'd be fine with that. You know, when I started studying physics in college, and I became an intel guy, and I, you know, I got briefed a lot of programs. I figured, oh, I would know if it's a thing. And I kind of ascribe to the, you know, the Rico Fermi thing where, you know, wouldn't it be obvious when they'd just be flying around and they wouldn't care and they would just land and say hello. Yeah. But that's like an overly simplistic thought. Humanistic, too.

Very humanistic. Humanistic. You're assuming that they have the same kind of intent in us. You assume they operate in the electromagnetic spectrum that we can observe normally. And then also you're assuming that they would want this kind of open, obvious kind of interaction and are not doing cover concealment techniques where they're, you know, obfuscating their activity because maybe they're, you know, observing us for some purpose. What if they're von Neumann probes, right?

Do you guys know von Neumann probe? No. Von Neumann replicators. Which is like self-replicating tech that's disposable in nature. If you're trying to send something out simple and engineered to explore the cosmos. And there's always a question of like, what was the first self-replicating organism? Like I think the big mystery is how does chemistry turn into biology? And we have these people that say, oh, it was just this primordial soup.

And you had all these chemicals kind of like floating around, and they've done experiments like this, and never been able to recreate life through those experiments. And it's a really open question, like, how did life form? And I think it's probably much more trippy and interesting than like just a chemical soup. Just the chemicals happen to bond in a certain way. It's a happy accident. And Crick's view was that DNA could not have emerged accidentally from the primeval soup.

on this planet in just a hundred million years. It needed much longer to it. He still bought into the primeval soup idea, but not on this planet. What he came down to was that there must have been some other planet, somewhere else, where a primeval soup had existed and there had been enough time for DNA to emerge from the accidental bumping together of molecules. That's, by the way, something I'm a bit skeptical of anywhere. There was actually a French kind of evolutionary theorist and philosopher named Henri Bergson. He thought the sun was somehow essential to evolution.

If you think about it. That makes sense. It's mutations. You need mutation. You need genetic mutations for evolution to occur. It's a radiological. You know, it's at least putting out ultraviolet, you know, so. Totally.

Why are we worried about a Japanese nuclear spill? What happened at Fukushima in Chernobyl? You had an acceleration of evolution due to radiation. Maybe the Sun is an extremely sophisticated nuclear fusion reactor that powers the Earth, and the Earth's electromagnetic field was simulated to support life. Astronauts often have to take Schumann resonance machines up with them to space to mimic the electromagnetic field of the Earth. Otherwise, their bodies often malfunction. You know, if you put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage, it does not develop normally.

And then if you can change the... the cell gradient of like a tadpole where you've severed the arm of the tadpole to the cell gradients of the head cells and you can grow a chimeric two-headed tadpole. And so there's something around kind of the electromagnetic field that is orthogonal and maybe even upstream of DNA in terms of morphology. Yeah, because I've done experiments too with plant growth around high powerful Wi-Fi routers and that actually Oh yeah, they don't grow right. No. It's like pretty, it's kind of concerning. I think about the Wi-Fi in my house.

I'm like, oh man, am I like cooking myself slowly or something? Dave ran this morning and I love a race. I like this. You what's the name of the Loma? Playboy. Think the name of the Loma was boy. Can you ask me? This is stuff on ATV.

Represcent. Over the past days, you shared with us that you were diagnosed to be on the autism spectrum. How has this served you in your life in your career and how has it hindered you? Yeah, I mean, I didn't know, you know, that I was autistic until I was like in my early 30s. So, I mean, it served me well in the government

because I was super good at, you know, doing intel and like, you know, Dave, we want you to target this facility. Okay, you have six months, figure out everything, you know? And of course, I do. And it's, you know, that was very good. But I think especially if you're trying to maintain relationships and stuff and how to read people's emotions and how to show your own emotions. Because, you know, autism, especially if you're, you know, deeper in the spectrum when you get Asperger's and that kind of stuff, you don't know how to even present your emotions in a way to a partner or, you know, a spouse or whatever. He would come home and tell me, like, general stuff.

And I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, there's probably aliens. Like, that makes sense. Unfortunately, Dave can't talk about the backlash he's received from inside the government because of an ongoing investigation. But a good example of a pretty despicable marginalization attempt from the outside was an article written a few weeks after the hearing by The Intercept. The article describes Dave's hospitalization back in 2018,

an episode of alcohol consumption and suicidal ideation that led to a 911 call. But the article failed to mention any of the factors that led to this incident. Yeah, definitely experienced some really nuts stuff. Not only has Dave been very open with us and other media about his PTSD from combat experience and having a close friend die while on duty. I had a friend of mine who died doing the same stuff I was, you know, six months later, going to the same location. He's also discussed all of the suffering that's resulted from that experience

and the proactive techniques he's used to heal from that trauma. So like EMDR therapy, HRV breathwork, all that stuff, I was not a believer. But holy cry, at least it worked for me. And I highly recommend anybody that has issues with that, maybe try some of that stuff. Because it seems kind of non-traditional, but it was very valuable. Critiquing the substance of Dave's argument, saying that they're high level or secondhand, that's all within the public and media's right. But this was a clear cheap shot, a low blow, and one that I suspect was.

probably driven by a political ulterior motive, concealing the truth. People like send me memes or like TikToks. I'm like, yep, that's mine. Have you, in your time in the Navy, have you ever seen something that you couldn't explain or something that? We have a cabin up the mountains and our former neighbor. He was so interested in U.S. and he moved to Roswell, Mexico, because he wanted to be close. He claimed he did see something. Another question that I always get is like, why is it always an American thing?

Like, why is this always happening in America? The phenomenon is global, 100%. Like, I mean, you look at aerial schools, Russians have reported stuff. The Chinese have what they call the journal UFO research, which is a published periodical in the People's Republic of China. And you don't remember, you know, the CCP does not allow fringe belief. beliefs and, you know, it's basically tacitly endorsed and allowed to, since I think the late 90s, I want to say.

Do you think the three-body problem, kind of the dark forest analogy of aliens, was maybe sort of a form of soft disclosure from the Chinese government? Yeah, I mean, I don't know for sure, but they've allowed this sci-fi series to be published by this Chinese author that's like pretty trippy. Really true. And I don't know. Maybe that's a way for the Chinese government to climatize. The populace.

Do note in the South China Morning Post, I want to say it was June 2021, and they had an article like, oh yeah, we have a UAP Task Force 2. We're using AIML to look at UAP sightings. And that's really been their own overt messaging on UAP, at least to an English-speaking kind of audience. So, oh, yeah, we understand that's a problem.

We have a task force too. Isn't what's happening in Ukraine kind of an argument against the practical application of these technologies because if either side wanted it, it kind of definitively win, and you had this kind of faster than light travel thing. Well, you'd have to be willing to reveal your ace in the whole tech, because once you use it, then you burn it, and then now everybody knows.

Gotcha. is basically, is this a SIOP or is this real? The answer is it's both. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, if the phenomena is real, there are more likely to be SIOP surrounding it. And those SIOPs are going to be more effective if the phenomena is real.

And yeah, if there are vehicles in the sky running circles around American state-of-the-art fighter jets, do you not think the government would try to get in front of that narrative and at times use it for its own purposes? We know the Air Force tried to marginalize UFOs with Blue Book. But later, in 1979, the Air Force drove a man crazy by playing up his belief in aliens. Paul Benowitz, I'm sure you're, are you familiar with him?

I've heard about it, yeah. He saw some strange craft activity and didn't know what it was. And Richard Doty, who was an Air Force disinfo guy, was kind of assigned to screw him up mentally. So we know UFOs are part SIAO. That's old news. The real question is, is this only a PSYOP? Because if it is, it cuts against everything we know about our pretty dysfunctional government. It's basically the best SIOP of all time.

It runs across government agencies that don't always get along, presidents on both sides of the aisle, fighter pilots and radar operators who adhere to a culture of humility, and of course, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of average civilians. The null hypothesis, that this is purely, purely a sciop is almost harder to defend than just admitting the existence of non-human intelligence. But you shouldn't blindly trust me or Dave Grush, for that matter. Do your own research. Talk about, I mean, you have people like Stephen Pinker who are like, this is the best we've ever had it.

I think that's BS. So maybe violence is at an all-time low. But it's because we have nukes now. So any war is mutually assured destruction. And so if there's a world beyond the material world and that can somehow be accessed or communicated with in any possible way. It might be sort of a crazy Hail Mary, but you've got to throw the Hail Mary now. You can't run the ball. Is it something you would like to say directly to someone? On the program? Yeah, I know if you're on the program, I understand empathetically, you know, the risks,

what you put yourself through. We're trying to create a time where we can get this out there, recruit better people, hopefully protect those who want to go forward. If you want to go forward, there is a legal process, either through PPD19, if it's an Intel thing, there's other inspector generals. You do have the right to go directly to Congress. And then, of course, some of the senior leaders

that have known about this stuff, and I understand they were in positions where they had to make decisions, just like anybody else, and they're not at the top of the pyramid. I think the time is right to cement maybe your final legacy and to help out,

even though I know there'll be some admittance of, you know, maybe decisions you've made that you wish in the past, maybe you didn't make. But I think it's time to move forward. And I think it'll be stronger as a nation and as a world. I think it's going to enhance national security, enhance peer competition policing. So people aren't doing things unethical and immoral. If everything's in secret, everybody can get away with things that might be illegal and ethical. immoral and hold our adversaries accountable publicly if this is a thing that we acknowledge. And once again, nuclear physics broadly studied, nuclear weapons development.

That's classified. So that's all I have to say. Just come on. Do you think in some ways UFOs are like a roar shock test? And the way I mean that is that you could use them as an auspice to sort of clamp down and create one world government or something. and create, you know, extra surveillance and say, you know, this is this big thread and, you know, we're not at the top of the food chain and they're apex predators and, you know, we've got to be careful, watch your step. Or they could be incredibly libertarian because it's like, actually, you know,

terrestrial governments aren't as powerful maybe as we thought that they were. And, you know, I think it could go in either direction. Yeah, or it's just like they're just simply waiting until we, like, generally care about that. We've just like, we look at it. We're like, huh, that's interesting. And then we go about our day and we don't even integrate the phenomenon into our lives. In terms of people's reaction to this,

look, I'm angry about possible white-collar crime, especially people possibly being driven crazy or to their death. That's horrible. Yeah. And then I also think on some level, people are too focused on government

kind of recrimination. It is time for transparency. Transparency. Transparency. and not on the fact that this is the nature of reality. These things might make you a biblical literalist. Ezekiel saw the wheel, baby, first chapter. I'm with you.

Do you believe that the phenomenon is the next big, great religion in the world? Yeah, basically. The phenomenon is probably already influenced all the other religions already, so it's just, maybe we're looking at the source code. Yeah, if you're looking at the source code. We're at the graphic user interface level. It's like IP header and we're getting into, finally getting into the information flow. In her book American Cosmic, Diana Posulka makes the pretty convincing case that many seemingly

divine contact experiences in the past could have actually been what we now call UFO experiences. Just take the case of St. Francis of Assisi. His close confidant, brother Leo, documents the experience describing sound and fury creating atmospheric sparks, a spinning disc, telepathic communication between Francis and the disc, and then Francis is wounded by rays of light. Francis interprets these hand wounds as the stigmata of Christ, but Pesolka speculates that maybe this was just radiation damage from a UFO experience. It's reasonably religious, but nothing like crazy, kind of average. Studied physics, I became kind of agnostic.

I was like, eh, I don't know about this, all this kind of woo-woo, you know, stuff that the church exposes and stuff. And then, oddly enough, I've kind of come to... full circle in some sense where there is this higher sentience. There seems to be, I think we're created beings in some manner, whether it be some pamphyspermia from little G gods or big G. I think about the people, the journey I had and the most random people that I've known that were placed in my life like 14 years ago, you know, shut the door in my office at NGA. They're like, look, dude. And, you know, they started telling me all this stuff that I was, and they

brought these crazy intel reports. I guess I was kind of the right guy that was chosen to do this thing, I guess. But so yeah, I've come full circle in my belief system. For me, it's inspiring because it's like this idea that it's just, you know, eat, drink, and be merry or whatever. You know, you just, you live, you pay taxes, you work a job and then you die. Yeah, that's meaning of life and just like the Vatican Observatory saying, yeah, we're like cool with other sentient life that shows God paints like a, you know, broad brush and-

That's pretty cool. And Catholic Church is very accepting on that. And it just shows, you know, God's providence and God's creative powers if there's actually other interesting sentience besides us. Totally. It's like, you know, what was it in the movie Contact? It's a total waste of space if it's just us, right? It's like the famous line in the movie.

Carl Sagan was a great communicator, probably one of the best, you know. He also met a lot with Kit Green towards the end of his career. It was a CIA guy very into UFOs. Yeah, you were telling me that. I didn't know that. You can count on Jesse to tell you these weird facts. Yeah, I thought I had a lot of useless knowledge. It's not useless, but it's pretty intense.

It's pretty useless until now. This is like the mega interview. We're covering every potential trippy slash esoteric slash conspiratorial thing out at once. This justifies me being paranoid in my room. reading about weird shit and being criticized by friends and colleagues for years. Yeah, this is more you educating me than me saying anything for some interview right now. So it's kind of cool.

Yeah, I've always learned something when I'm talking to you. And sometimes I'm like hanging up the phone and call me and I'm like, I don't know about this guy. He's going. I think he's like really going deep where I think he's losing his grip. That was going to do. Yeah. But, oh my God. That was a crazy hummingbird?

That was a crazy hummingbird. Maybe this DARPA spy cam or something. Oh, man, that's a good sign, bro. It's a good mind versus the year. It brings science and religion together in a way that these two things have been sort of cleaved or bifurcated since the Enlightenment. This could possibly reconcile those two things, which would be absolutely amazing where you could read the Bible and you could say some of this stuff. could actually happen in the context of aliens. Yeah, like the Pamspermia, creationism,

this might actually prove certain religious texts and what they've expoused with like, you know, little G gods. And at least for me, you know, spiritually, at least my belief system, it's certainly opened my eyes to the, you know, the universe is not clockwork. Everything we see in our day-to-day life is not everything that exists. And if there's truly other sentient intelligences, I mean, it just inspires my curious.

inspires my curiosity, like I'd like to know what their belief systems are and how maybe we'll find out that that matches with ours and it actually bolsters our, you know. Maybe we can ascend to the per your video in the Berkshires. You want to repeat it in a month? Yeah, I mean, the ending result was, is the universe ignoring us? Because we're not at their level yet. We haven't reached that height of awareness as the society as a people. Is this an opportunity for us to examine ourselves to figure out why we have not been a part of this bigger ecosystem? Interesting friend visiting us as well.

An alien visit. Non-human intelligence? Non-human intelligence. We have evidence of non-human intelligence. One of the most powerful witness testimonies that I've seen in all the interviews that I've consumed over the past three years was one of the girls from the aerial school case. when Dr. John Mack was interviewing her, and he's trying to understand how the telepathy was working, and then she goes out of nowhere,

I think in space there's no love, but down here there is. Well, that's like the near-death experiences, like a proof of heaven by Eben Alexander, medical doctor. Yeah, he has a very interesting scientific outlook of his near death, and that was like this, like, overarching, like, loving energy, something when he ascended to this, it sounded like another dimensional plane if you will.

He had basically fasciitis of the brain where it was like, you know, he was probably going to be brain dead if he even survived, but he miraculously came back and he was totally fine, but all this knowledge

and all this stuff he experienced. That's a super common thing in alien abduction experiences, whether it's the aerial school or commander George Hoover of the Navy actually talked about this. Aliens often come down. They say,

you don't know how powerful you are. You don't know how amazing and powerful you are. And in a lot of mystery rituals, like El Eucinian mystery rituals and others, you experience sort of noesis, or it's often accompanied by kind of a near-death experience or something, but you experience knowledge of your primordial soul. And you get this sort of loving state, and then you come back down.

And there is this sort of, Allah Jesus, translation function issue, where, you know, he was known to speak in riddles and, you know, mysteries. There's a great book, actually, called Flatland by Sir Edward Abbott. Yeah, that's super classic. In the late 19th century where it's like if you were a 3D person speaking to people in flatland on a 2D plane, or, you know, Plato's cave. Like, you see the light. You come down.

You can't really tell people and then you get persecuted. Well, yeah, he said he had this knowledge. He understood it when he was in that plane. But when he came back and was trying to verbalize it and write it down, he could not find the human words to translate it. It's almost like our symbol rate is too slow to communicate the information effectively. In a very interesting time. I'm excited to see where it goes, and you're playing a massive part in it.

So I appreciate everything. Your service just on a fundamental level, you know, and you're a real example of like a modern Mr. Smith goes to Washington. and you're not doing it in this sort of totally reckless wrecking ball sort of way. You're going through the proper processes and doing things legally, but also you have agency and you're doing it strategically time after time again. People just get like a neutered when they're in government and you are doing a big thing. So that's cool for young people to see. Thank you, Dave.

Thank you for everything, man. Yeah, cool. See you. We talked about a lot of a lot of people. about a lot of shit. Ladies and gentlemen, Neil Armstrong. Today we have with us a group of students

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