American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - What I Learned From Joe Rogan (ft. Young Jamie and Viktor Hovland)

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

I reflect on my appearance on Joe Rogan while golfing with Young Jamie and Viktor Hovland. Their conversation dives deep into UFOs, ancient civilizations, and the secrets of the pyramids. They unpack the physics of anomalous objects, the shifting media narratives, and the hidden legacy of Harold Malmgren—all while questioning what Hollywood and black-budget R&D programs aren’t telling us. | Young Jamie | Instagram ➤https://www.instagram.com/jamievernon/ | Viktor Hovland | Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/viktor_hovland/ | Sponsors | MUDWTR: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code [JESSE] at  mudwtr.com/JESSE!  BetterHelp: This episode is sponsored by/brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ALCHEMYPOD and get on your way to being your best self. Brunt: Get $10 Off @BRUNT with code [JESSE] at https://bruntworkwear.com/JESSE -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤  https://whop.com/jessemichels Patreon  (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Website ➤ https://www.jesse-michels.com/ Merchandise ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Media Inquiries ➤ [e-mail] #JesseMichels #JoeRogan #YoungJamie #ViktorHovland #UFO #Mudwtrpod #BRUNTpod Chapters 00:00 The Fascination with UFOs 02:57 Exploring Ancient Civilizations and the Pyramids 05:57 The Quest for Evidence and Truth 09:07 Conspiracy Theories and Government Secrecy 11:57 Debating History and Beliefs 16:35 Unveiling Harold Malmgren's Controversial Legacy 19:32 The Complexity of Advanced Technologies and Their Origins 22:41 Exploring the Physics of Anomalous Objects 25:21 The Intersection of Science, Intelligence, and UFOs 29:59 Hollywood's Influence on UFO Narratives 35:02 The Secrets of Advanced Research and Development Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. What's up, everybody? We have a very special show for you today. Apparently, dreams do come true. I achieved one of mine when I went on the Joe Rogan experience. The episode is live today.

I don't really get nervous for anything, but I was pretty nervous for this. I've been a super fan of Joe's show for the last decade, and so it was tough to contain myself and lay low. When leading up to the episode, he'd been texting me, talking about binging our show American Alchemy and loving it. Joe is a hero of mine. I think he's a strong force for good and free thought, and he showed a ton of courage under fire during the pandemic.

So saying that this was an honor would be a massive understatement. On the show, we talk about all sorts of crazy shit from artificial intelligence. It doesn't matter. whether AGI, you know, hits some, like, perfectly turning passable point, you're going to get this, like, these weird cult-like dynamics, like the meta-sociological thing is you're going to get, like, religions dedicated to AI. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. Without a doubt, there'll be people worshipping certain branches of AI. It's a secret science. And I think there is technology that is black technology and science that is black science. And then I think there's stuff out in the open.

And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts and, you know, super secret department of energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened. You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since. That's insane. There is black science. To exotic propulsion, gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island. So you have the standard model, quantum field theory. and you have Einstein's theory of gravity, and the two are not reconcilable.

It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion. To UFOs, I saw a thing that looked like a fucking school bus. It looked like no visible propulsion, this sort of low humming noise or whatever. It was maybe 50, 60, 70 feet high, right above the tree tops. Those bizarre NASCAR tridactal mummies

that I flew down to Peru to sea, What do you think is going on there? They break my brain. I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this. If it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever. And finally, the legendary Thomas Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown's biographer has him on record in a phone call that is recorded saying the tests were very tricky, but in the end we got it to work. And he's on his deathbed.

But before you go and watch that, just wait a second. We have a very special episode for you today. Before going on Joe's show, I had already been friends with his producer, young Jamie. Jamie is an awesome guy. He knows a ton about UFOs and is down some pretty crazy rabbit holes, so naturally we hit it off. He's also a huge golf fan. Serendipitously, one of the best golfers in the world. Victor Hovlin reached out to me last year because he's a huge fan of American Alchemy and happened to be coming to Austin in late April. Victor is the absolute man. Outside of being a top 10 golfer in the world, the sensation from Norway is humble, down to earth, and super smart.

In his spare time, he's reading Plato and learning about UFOs. Let's all root for him in the U.S. Open this month. So Jamie, Victor, and I did a little golfing at Barton Pitchin' Puts when Victor was in town. They watched me absolutely embarrass myself as we discuss a bunch of trippy, fun topics. Without further ado, please enjoy this week's Amazing American Alchemists, Jamie Vernon, and Victor Hovlin. Oh, and one more thing. launched maybe the coolest merch line ever, which I'll link in the description. I mean, just look

at these designs. We have our cowboy UFO tea and our atomic space age tea. So go grab those and watch my episode with Joe Rogan, but not before watching this amazing special episode of American Alchemy. What got you in the UFO? Dude, it's cool. Yeah. Oh no. There's like a lot of evidence there crashes and that they have anomalous stuff. How much and how deep it goes is kind of the What's the deal about the pyramids? What was that doing wrong before? Like I'd hit it. Where do we start?

Somming the egg. Some in the egg. Okay. Yeah. Multiple different factions. He had some conspiracy theories. Okay. I don't even know if they're conspiracies.

Never thought about it until right now. I might want to pull up my phone. Pull it up, Jamie. He's like, fuck you. interview me. My driver game is broken right now. Not that I'm going to ask you for any tips, but I'm any driver only right now.

I'll take a look, bro. I might go until I run out of box. I know I'm going to fucking whack it into weird places. Oh, you're fine. That's sweet. All right, who's first? Jamie, you're going first. You want to send it?

That's too hard. That's it. There you go. Just hit the shop first, and we'll see what we got. Okay, man. Not working with much. Well, all right. Not bad.

It's going to run right down there. Whoa. That's it. What got you in the UFOs? Obviously, those videos that were released or leaked from the Pentagon that came out. Yeah. Gimble and Nimitz, the other one. Nimitz and go fast, yeah.

And then it's just been this like slow bleed of listening to Joe Rogan's podcast and hearing Bob Lazar. I'm like, that's interesting. But that was like the first story or, um, that I'd heard about it. And it's very easy to go, okay, that's just one guy, just dismiss him. Yeah. And then you just move on with your life. But then you hear more and more guys coming out like that.

And it's very hard to just dismiss all their information. Totally. Especially when a lot of their stories like corroborate each other. Yeah. You started to hear about the case in Virginia or Bibb Grush mentioned in 1933. It was in Italy. In Italy. It's long been known that the regime of dictator Benito Mussolini documented numerous UAP during this time.

This internal memo from the Italian Secret Services includes crude drawings of the UAPs. It's true. It's real. Yeah, that actually happened. Italian government moved it to a secure airbase in Italy for the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 1944, 1945. And, you know, the Pope Pius, the 12th back-channeled that. So the Vatican was involved. Yeah, and told the Americans what the Italians had, and we ended up scooping it. There's so many places where it's happened all over the world.

In 46, in Sweden, they had ghost rockets, which looked like modified V2s. And Eisenhower sent General James Doolittle out there to investigate. And there were, like, over a thousand of these, like, V2 rockets that seemed to, like, be able to move and traverse in ways that, like, V2s would. generally just, you know, they wouldn't steer themselves that much or whatever. And they would go, like, way faster than V2s. And so nobody knows, like, what those are. Yeah. I don't know.

I guess, I think Sweden itself has, like, a lot of UFOs. So they have, like, a big UFO contingency. Okay. And there's, like, an astronomer there named Beatrice Villarreal, who's big in this stuff. But I don't know. I don't know that. It just seems like everywhere else outside of the U.S., the governments or, like, they're, it's easier for them to kind of keep that information on the down low.

versus here in the United States. There's so many people who are anti-governor, government, and kind of think for themselves a little bit. So they push the narratives out there. Yeah. But it is so frustrating because you don't really have anything concrete and, like, hard evidence yet. Yeah.

Even though there seems to be so much out there. Yeah. From your videos and, like, the deep dives that you do, it's unbelievable. And you want it to be, like, you just want to have something. You want to believe. Yeah. Yeah. But it's hard to just go, like, full deep into it until you have, you know, something concrete.

But hopefully that's going to come soon. You're the youngest in the top 10? I might be. I don't know, to be honest. I thought you were. You think you. How old are you? It's close.

You're 25? 27. 27. Yep. Uh-oh. Oh. That's it. Dude.

Drop. Damn. Just hitting everything far. See, Anderrill moved to Ohio. Yeah. Yeah. At least that's a giant spot there for sure. Yeah.

The intel plant there is a little bit of a situation right now, but they have Andrew. Yeah. Quite a few data centers. Uh-huh. I guess there's like, it's specifically because there's like no seismic activity. Uh-huh. There's like no fracking, no other things going around. Yeah.

It's obviously important. Interesting. There's also other stuff in that neighborhood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like what? I mean, it's not a giant state. So Jamie's from Ohio, Columbus, Ohio. Yeah, okay.

And Betel Memorial Institute is there. And Betel manages all the nuclear sites across the U.S. It's also very close to Wright Patterson. Yeah, which is a lot of stuff has happened there, supposedly, at least. So he has some conspiracy theories. Okay. I don't even know if they're conspiracies. Just truth.

Kick up there. Go. Wow. Yeah, nice shot, Jamie. No. It's all right. right yeah whacking old lady i know they're just there it happens yeah yeah yeah unfortunately what's coming up now for for you what do you got planned um so going to mexico peru yeah um

and then doing this i interviewed these skywatcher guys i was just talking to jamie about it have you seen these guys they're like sky watchers no they like claim to have this thing called the dog whistle which is this frequency and that attracts UFOs like 100% of the time and they have sensors and they like pick up a lot of weird stuff. Okay. So I want to see what's up. Wow.

Okay. Even more effective than the CE5. Yeah. Well, they also have that. They also have like psychic like they call neuromeditators or whatever and they like try to summon UAP. And Jake, there was this guy he had to start for four years and then Jake Barber when he came out, joined him.

and they had like eight classes of UAP and then he he joined and they're adding the egg is the ninth and they're trying to get the egg which Jake retrieved or whatever in the mid-2000s to like come down and like to summon the egg

summon the egg okay yeah and like do it in front of everybody which obviously if they do that study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time college students get the best of both world

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Yeah, that's got to be some of the next step If everybody can do that Yeah. On tape, please. Yeah, yeah, on tape. All right, damn, that's cool. Where are they at? It's a bold, it's a mobile, like, sensor unit so they can set up anywhere, but they did

operations in Palmdale and then Finley, the Finley Mountain Range in East Texas, or West Texas, actually, which is a critique of theirs is people are like, oh, it's next to, like, sensitive sites, so it could be, like, you know, but it's not their method. Or no, it could be, like, stuff, like spoofing them or could be done in conjunction. with that you know yeah okay it's a bold claim yeah yeah that's cool that's worth checking out yeah for sure go in gonna give myself we'll give it to them yeah yeah exactly not bad put on the hill all right no it's just pathetic there we go you have to name any names but do you talk about this stuff on tour at all

with anybody uh people look at me pretty crazy oh yeah when I was talking about came out and he was like what victor i think you're okay pretty much pretty much i think you're good at spinning the questions that you get back to golf you're like yeah it's like you can't be dogmatic with your golf swing either but it's so true though it's like in everything in live yeah obviously i was trying to connect it together but it's like you you have to question everything and yeah and in doing so you find that either you get rid of the beliefs that you have or you're you you believe in the things you believe in even more deeply. Yeah.

So it's like, I think it's good to just be open-minded and then ask a bunch of questions. Totally. Especially to that topic that you're involved in, it's like you spend more time researching. Yeah, you just get more questions. And it's so interesting. Yeah. And the implications of all of it is, I mean, if, just objectively speaking, if that's not interesting, then what else is, what else is interesting?

Yeah. And nothing else is. Wow. That's it. Oh, it's great. That could be pretty good, actually. Yeah, that's awesome. This is a hard hole.

Just over that. Jesse, do you see what he did? Do that. Yeah. Just copy them. Nope. That's not bad. Get up.

What was I doing wrong before? Like I'd hit it? Yeah, it's where do we start? All right. Yeah, that's better. Yay! There you go. Partner golf.

The most improved. The most improved. It's a low bar. Do you feel like you get to it when you travel, you can like see the places you go? Or are you like so focused? Generally, when I feel like I'm playing pretty well and I'm trying more to conserve my energy. Yeah. I like to just find a cool spot in the town that I'm in or like a couple of things.

years ago, I was in London and Stonehenge wasn't too far away. So, all right, let's drive an hour and a half and check out Stonehenge or, like in Ohio or Columbus for that tournament. I drove to Serpent Mound. Uh-huh. Oh, nice. There's a few things in, I mean, you'd be there like a month if you're going, right? Yeah, there's a couple of things around town. Yeah, there's some cool things there. And it's like, it's just nice to mix it up and get away from the golf course a little bit. You're really into the, like, ancient civilization. Dude, it's cool. Yeah, it's awesome, man. So I liked your Graham Hancock interview. That was, that's cool.

I love Graham. You see a debate on Rogan with Flint Dibble? Yeah. Yeah. What a name that is. Yeah. That was interesting. But like in the moment, I'm like, man, Flint Dibble is, like, he's obviously really smart.

It felt like it kind of didn't get anywhere, if that makes sense. I mean, yeah, I just, those debates aren't like usually the best debates even because they're really kind of coming in. and not really, I don't think most people are willing to, like, budge. They're coming in to, like, say what they had to say. Yeah, exactly. Kind of get those clips recorded and I said it. It's like, it's not a conversation of trying to figure out what's going on. It's like my side is going to win or, yeah, it's can.

So just hear me say it again. Yeah, yeah. Now they'll believe me. Yeah, exactly. And it's just two different, like, data sets. Like, like, Graham has his stuff and Flint hasn't even, like, looked at it. Yeah. And then he has some slide with too much.

shipwrecks that like, you know, didn't even happen. He's got a good point. Like, you haven't looked everywhere. It's like, we haven't looked everywhere. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We know.

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That's right, up to 43% off with code jessy at M-D-W-T-R.com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with mudwater, because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. What's the deal about the pyramids, what they're discovered underneath the pyramid. Is that just like a weird gadget that they're reading that stuff?

Or is there actual physical structures underneath the pyramid? I guess that's what they're maybe debating. I'm a little skeptical. Like the synthetic? The answer is yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

What's your tank? Have you looked into it? There's definitely stuff under the pyramid. That's how much and how deep it goes is kind of the question. I've heard that too. But why do you think, why are you high conviction that there's stuff under the pyramid? Well, I mean, just that people have gone under it and shown it on video, I think. Yeah.

Like, there's like at least a chamber. But this new thing is like synthetic aperture radar, which doesn't penetrate below the ground enough to be able to get like these generators at that level of granularity be able to draw them up. So I'm skeptical of this latest, like Italian. They seem very, you know, like, I don't know if excited or but like very like adamant about their point. Like, no, we did. This is it. Yeah. We did find this. I don't think anyone's going to let him go dig to check either, though.

Right. But can you not figure out a way maybe like from, you dig a hole from, I don't know, half a mile away and try to get close to it? I think people have been asking them go underneath the Sphinx for a long time and they're not letting them do that. They think there's stuff under the Sphinx. Well, the minister of culture in Egypt, Zahi Hawaz is like as a gatekeeper clamp down on that entire area. He said in the 90s he said there's stuff under the sphinx. And then I think they dug some really superficial thing and they're like nothing to see here and then didn't didn't like pursue it further. So I there's probably some like, you know, like planned obsolescence like with like Apple products or something where it's like it's I think they I think they like to like dribble out like the reveals for like tourism.

And they don't like things that go against the Egyptian national pride. Like if something predates Egypt, that's not. They can't claim it. They can't claim it. So I think it's like too much all at once. It's kind of a threat to them. Do you think they know kind of the bigger history of the pyramids, but they're not deciding to release it? Or is it like?

I don't think they fully know. No. But I don't know. I believe the like Graham Hancock and Robert Shock, John Anthony West theories that like limestone damage on the sphinx shows that it predates, you know, whatever it was. the old kingdom or, you know, 5,000 years ago or whatever. Yeah. And, you know, maybe there was a tropical climate at that time. And then maybe the pharaonic headdress was like retrofitted onto this like older structure.

But beyond that, I think there's decent evidence actually that the pyramids themselves were built during the ancient Egypt. So I don't know. What do you think? I'm, without going, yeah, somewhere like that, I don't know. I was just trying to think in my head could be a silly question. I'm trying nowhere in the Bible do they talk about the pyramids do they but I don't I don't know that's kind of I should probably have Google in front of me to ask that kind of question. I don't think so no so it has to be two to three thousand but that's what why wouldn't they or did

they just not they could have easily just taken those passages out if they didn't want it in there I don't know that's just thought I just had literally the Jews were like the slaves but then yeah where they are there because they don't talk about building them either like we were being used to build this giant structure right And we were tired of it. Maybe they didn't know what was going on in Egypt because they were obviously in the Middle East. So it's like, it's pretty far away. Yeah.

You would think they were that word. I don't know though. There's that. But it was in Egypt. Like the Exodus was, they say it's, this is speculation under Ramsey's the second in Egypt. And so, but then I, yeah, I don't know if they talk about pyramids. Yeah. I just never, I never thought about it.

It's all right. And I might want to call up my phone and pull it up. Chat, GBT. Pull it up, Jamie. I was hearing that's mentioned in the Bible. He's like, fuck you. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Yay! Go, go, go, go. Yeah. Was that Harold Maldgren video that you did? Was that maybe the craziest one that you've done? I think so. I kind of think so. Because it's like hard to argue with his credentials.

Yeah. Like they're kind of unimpeachable. You know, like, I mean, there might be now, as they changed the Wikipedia page. It's so crazy. That's wild. It's insane.

They literally changed. Did you see this, Jamie? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They literally changed him from like top presidential aid, you know, JFK, LBJ, Nixon Ford, to like American writer and lobbyist and said he was like part of the Japanese wailing lobby.

And like, and then involved, you know, involved in some other scandal or whatever. It's insane. And if you hear him, speak, like, to any discerning person, you're like, he was an extremely, like, elite player in politics. Yeah. Like, you just know, you hear how sophisticated he is. It's just insane.

But, um, so, yeah, I think, I think so. Like, I thought about it after that. And I'm like, how much deeper can you get without, like, unveiling a saucer and a hangary, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I could, I don't have the knowledge that you do, but I could see that in that interview as he's talking, you're just like making all these connections, like, with certain things that he's saying and the people that he's been around. It was like, it was just pretty cool to watch from like an outsider's perspective. I was like, what the fuck? Like he did the Magenta thing. Yeah, what else did Richard Bissell tell you? You said this didn't start last week. This has been going on. He mentioned that in 1933 and magenta. He did. Yes. Richard Bissell mentioned

the 1933 Magenta crush. That's amazing. Exactly. That is such corroboration because that is a highly conflicted, you know, account. 1933 was the first recovery in Europe in Magenta, Italy. I fully trust David Grush, but that's amazing that there's some corroboration from back then. He mentioned it. Wow.

It's pretty crazy, the Blue Guil Triple Prime test. Like, there's so much data around that probably involving some sort of anomalous object. This guy, Jeffrey Krookshank, went really deep into. But then it's also tough. It's like he said, like he said Majestic, that word, like from the Majestic 12. Yeah. And then I didn't even, Nick was actually filming it. And like, I didn't even hear that.

We had to transcribe it later because he survived throat cancer 12 years ago. Oh, wow. And his voice is not good. And so he said that on the phone to me. And if I had more time with him, I would have asked him 100 questions about that. So he could have been using that in its counterintel context. like just referring to some group, but like he didn't want to say the name of the group or whatever. So it's just, it's hard to say on some of the stuff.

Like I wish I had more more time with him. But still, like. And the fact that they changed his Wikipedia right after, like, that makes you pretty conspiratorial when you see stuff like that. I mean, like, why would you do that? Yeah. Why? No other reason than to discredit what the man said.

Totally. You can come up with these like meta games that they could be. playing where it's like they want to show he's credible by by like faking some detraction on it but it's it's crazy at a certain point you're like I think they just take it at face value or whatever and then there are other things like he's at the end of his life and like you don't always remember everything perfectly correctly but like I don't know if you add up the fact that Richard Bissell who like literally like was the designer of area 51 like was briefing him on other world technologies and then you know, he's holding the thing, Lawrence. I mean, we should ask Jeff Bezos, like,

because that's his grandfather that gave him the UAP material or whatever. So, what a crazy connection. How crazy is that? So this is kind of a weird question, but if Jeff Bezos has connection to the intelligence community and, like, maybe they know something that most people don't, like, why are him and like Elon out there shooting chemical rockets into space, like if they have more advanced technology or crafts, like why are they pushing it in that direction? Yeah, I think about this a lot. And like, I think if they do have stuff,

which I do think they have stuff, I don't think they know how to use it. And I think if there are sciops, it's like convincing people they do or something. It's like softening the enemy. Yeah, I wouldn't imagine they test that like every week or every night. Then I'd be like every six months, I'm like, all right, we've got to test.

Everybody's in place. We're going to do it at like 3 a.m. to 5.30 a.m. Yeah. And we'll get back next week and we'll see what they know. Oh, shit. They saw it. Ah. No, no.

Delete. What's supposed to happen? How'd they see it? Who saw it? Now let's pivot in this direction. Yeah. All right. Stop.

Three months later, we have to take a break. That's also a little bit too extreme too. Like, it can't just be that either. Yeah. But like the only, you don't have a ton of evidence that they know to use this stuff. It's like Bob Lazar, Dan Barish. You have like a few possible data points. And then otherwise, there's like, I think a lot of evidence there are crashes and that they have anomalous stuff.

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Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Where it's like, even if they know how to use it. No idea. Even if you know how to use it doesn't mean you don't know how to make it or deconstruct it or recharge it. Right.

Refuel it. You know, who knows? Like, right. I don't know. Who knows, really, I guess. what on the physics sides do you find the most convincing?

Because it seems like there's potentially a lot of different ways to get to kind of the same outcome of technology. Yeah. But a lot of at least the physicists that I'd like to listen to or have thoughts of, they come at it from many different angles. And it's like which one's correct? And like can you test it? Can you try it? I think it's hard to say like, and you have all these like EM drive and like Al-Cubiori warp drive. And you have like, how putoffs like electrically polarized vacuum, you have like a million different frameworks.

Yeah. But I like to start because I'm dumb on the physics level. Like with the- Doesn't seem like it, but- No, really. I got, you know, I could like barely keep up. But like, I think finding like the, the like initial effect that was like an anomaly that got classified is like probably the best starting point. And I think this guy, Townsend Brown, figured out basically a way to manipulate gravity with electromagnet.

And then a lot stems from that that's like more sophisticated. So I like to like start there. Yeah. But I don't know. I'm sure they're like way more advanced at this point. Yeah, you would think so or we would hope so. I think so. Yeah.

And there's like, I don't know, like aerospace graybeards that I speak to when I bring up Brown and that sort of thing. They're like, you know, we can't say, but like wink, wink, wink, nudge, like. Or it's the opposite where they're like bizarrely, like aggressively. like there's definitely nothing there. I saw your video, but there's nothing there. And it's like, why are you watching my video? Yeah. Like you're like so like, you're like some like, like the walkie, like exact or something. You have, there's so many physicists that are talking about like, okay, advanced whatever technology and you can use a quantum vacuum or whatever the word

they're trying to say. And then you have so many other scientists, whatever, the establishment that are just fully materialistic. And any anomaly that we see is just prosaic or conventional. And it's like, why do you have such, there's such a big divide. And it's like, it's, I've been listened to Avi Loeb on your buddy, Chris Ramsey. Yeah, he did great job. Yeah. And like, I love listening to Avi, but even he is like, he's trying to find aliens. Yeah.

And he's like, I haven't seen anything. I don't believe in anything else outside of that. So it's just interesting how you can have one faction of people, particularly the people working for government. But Avi also comes from like an intelligence background. He worked on Star Wars. Yeah, like. I thought he said that he didn't in that podcast, but I might have listened wrong. No, I'm pretty sure.

It's about Star Wars? Yeah, maybe. I think so. Maybe I'm wrong. But I wonder if he knows a little more than he likes on. Or he said to High Mesh. Did you hear that high mesh? No, I did not.

So this guy, like, ran the Israeli Space Force. And he's like, there's a Galactic Federation. And we're working with like aliens on Mars. Like crazy. And he's like, I think he knows that from his intelligence background. And I'm like, how would you know that? This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you are going through something, anything, I always think talking about it helps.

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McGonigle? McMonigle. McMonigle. Yeah. The CIA remote viewer. Yeah. That was a wild one. Yeah, dude.

Because he pulled out on your... Here we go. All right. Aliens were coming. They got us. The new train. But, but, yeah. Remote viewing millions of years ago, Mars.

Yeah. But then also they say that like only 30% of what they were seeing was accurate. Yeah, for sure. And some of the images he showed me, I, like, debunk. Like, some of them are not legit. So who's to, I don't know. But the Mars thing, I think it's actually, dogmatic and crazy to say

0% chance that there was life on Mars. You have the water caverns, you have the excess of like Argon 40s. The other thing I have, I read and I don't believe it's true is that the current rover up there wasn't equipped with anything to actually look for

signs of life. It's just got like cameras and it's looking for other stuff. The goal wasn't to look for life. Interesting. But the same reason I heard someone talking about the moon landing stuff again reason. I'm like you go into this whole process and you have have to also film it because no one believes you exactly it's kind of a tough process and thought process to get through because like you're doing all the have to go don't care film it that's not my

I'm here to like make sure the rocket goes and doesn't explode and we get there and we get back and then these other guys like you got to film it no one's going to believe you yeah it's like it's a tough I still believe in the moon landing and all that but like it's still a weird thing like you don't believe uh Bart Cybrel or what Joe does I don't know even know if he does there's just a fun conversation to have it is a fun conversation that's really a lot of it's just yeah but joe was arguing with uh who what was it dave smith or well he joe was really into it at one point yeah and he's just back and i don't i think like we've talked about just depends on the day you wake up you're like where am i at today like i'm a little more this way today yeah

it keeps it interesting yeah yeah oh jesus i'm back right i got it on one green Sorry When's your next tournament? Next week Oh, is it? Okay, so you have the week off and then... Yep.

Go to Philadelphia and then it's Charlotte and then to Memorial. Nice. If you want to get good at golf, stay friends with him. Keep getting tips. I like that.

Just act like it doesn't exist. Ooh. Oh, that's really good. Look at that. Dude. Crazy. That was insane. So you have a perfect hundred shot then, yeah?

It's the right in your head. Yeah, it was, I had a club up for that one. Oh, yeah. Needs to sit, though. Bounce right. Yeah, dude. Come on down. Oh, let's go.

Come on down. Oh, get through. Where to go? I don't even see it. Just drop right down the bottom of the tree. Oh, it didn't get through. It's fun day you can have. Yeah, the vibe is sweet.

Nice. Good shot. How did you two get linked up? I mean, just through, it was osmosis. Yeah. It would have happened eventually. Yeah. I think one of his videos, I found, I just found his videos and I DMed him after one of them.

Yeah. And then the real link was after Townsend Brown video. I don't know if you watched that one. Yeah. We were already talking and I texted him. I was like, are you telling me that Doc Brown had a moment of like lightning and drove back to his lab in Pasadena and created time travel.

Sounds like Back to the Future, dude. And he was like, holy shit, you're right. And he Googled some stuff and he got back to me. And there's even more that you don't know. And I was like, okay. Oh, wow. That's weird. That's weird.

Hi, Jesse. Let's go. I think Back to the Future definitely touches on some real stuff. Because when the DeLorean comes back, it crashes and the guy has like a little com, the kid has a comic book with like alien UFOs and he's like, it has no seams, no rivets, like it must be an alien UFO or whatever

and it's actually a time travel machine. So he's like mistaking it in real time or whatever. Oh shit. Damn. And then the guy Townsend Brown, like Doc Brown is Emmett, Tonson, Emmett, T, T, T, T, T, T, Thomas Townsend Brown. I was just with Doc Brown I was like that was close enough

Because driving to Pasadena Which is where it took place and all that stuff Which is where Townsend Brown did his experiment And it's called the flux capacitor Which is Townsend Brown's experiment as a capacitor Like what do you make of that Are they like are there Like Hollywood movies?

Is that scripted in a sort of way? According to time to long it's all on purpose I think I think or is it just like The wild synchronities of life Like simulation? Yeah I lean more towards that because there's so many weird ones that pop up. I don't want it.

Steven Spielberg executive produced it. And that guy knows some shit. Even if you look at Closing Coucher the Third Kind, they're two crates. Those are like the most advanced R&D programs at Lockheed and Northrop, respectively, that would have to do with this topic? Like, how would he know about that in like the late 80s? Yeah.

I don't know. I didn't read him. I mean, I was not, fed some stuff. Yeah. I don't know who made one of my favorite ones, Flight of the Navigator I've told you about. That's a Disney. Yeah, I know that.

Director Randall Kleiser. I never heard of that name. I first met Jake Barber at Disneyland. Really? Yeah. He was there with his family. Okay. And I drove down from L.A.

That was also a pretty crazy interview, I thought, with Jake. I thought so, too. Like, I think it was too much for people to stomach, like the psychic stuff and the UFO retrieval stuff all at once. Yeah. And the fact that he says he's handled these crafts himself. Like, you don't hear that stuff very often. No, you definitely, no. I mean, it's like, if that's, I don't know, you know, where to shake out there.

Like, I think if he's incredibly sophisticated and, like, so everything checks on the surface. Like, it's almost like, we'll never know. He's so, he's so sophisticated. And if it is true, it's the tip of the spirit. It's like that and Lazar and, like, what's farther than that? There's an assumption that the United States government is this whole. encompassing thing and they all work together and they all know everything and they got computers and they all talk on chats and emails and everybody's friends. That can't be. Now that's nowhere. It's probably the

farthest from the truth. It would have leaked. And there's multiple different factions, even within factions and factions within factions. Yeah. Maybe there's a small group of three guys that found something and stored it in a locker somewhere and like they're afraid to say what they got because they don't even know and it turns out and just has more and more. This group has 50 of them. That's what Barbara was saying with the egg. Like they might not care about the egg because they have too many. It's like, what a crazy thing to say? I know. And that's what he said.

What would you do with it then? You just threw it back, like dropped it off in the ocean. Like, where did it go? Yeah. Just left it? We're like, how many do we have? And he's like, who is us? He's like, it's like, it's like all these like factions fighting against each other.

I imagine if you told some, there's got to be a black market on, on the dark net for, UFOs. What's in that box? Buy it and find out. But then how is this more ubiquitous thing? How is it not more leaked and more? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, if it's that many. No one, I just, back to the, like, it's no one knows. They don't, it's hard to figure it out. You can see something. And not know. If you don't have the right tool to get in there. Right. Just an egg shape.

Yeah, if you find an iPhone in 100 years, it can't be. But there should be more concrete, like, evidence. I agree. I feel like everything is so much more into the, almost the theoretical, like you listen to certain people, and they've got this whole framework kind of figured out, but nothing to kind of show for it. Yes. Unless you have a thousand. If you have over a thousand of the eggs or whatever, then one of them's going to leak.

It's just well in the modern day. Sure. You know, so it has to be like less than that. And yeah, there is this whole like theoretical ontology around a thing that we don't even know. We don't even know, yeah. It's just like crazy. So I don't speculate. And like I think a lot of the ontology kind of makes sense.

Yeah. When you kind of, when you listen to people explain it like that. But again, you've got to have something concrete to show for it. For sure. It also could, like, be a bunch of different things. Like, the things you're summoning or the things that show up around nukes that, like, look like blobby, like, lights or whatever, aren't the saucers in, you know, lockyed hingers or whatever. Like, those could be two fundamentally different things. Yeah.

So it's just hard to say. Like, it could be, like, a zoo of, like, there's just, like, the spooky science world. The DOE has, like, a lock on, like, a lock. of it or whatever because that's where you have like the most secret of atomic stuff and then that's where you would put the most secret science it's where we do like the most you know like intense high energy physics okay stuff so not DARPA but like a different arm darpa is a part of the DOE yeah so so they you think they have just a lot of different departments kind of each specialites to particle physics to whatever the cloning DNA well they and

The DOE also paid for the human genome experiment. So, like, they, like, have, like, a lot of genomic data that, you know, other departments don't. They have the tightest security, like, since Los Alamos. And if you even look at, like, the special definition of nuclear material, like, in the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, it's like anything emitting alpha, beta, gamma radiation is, like, born secret. It's, like, restricted data upon finding it. So you could just contract out a lot. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination

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Lockheed or Northrop or whatever, and if they like stumble onto a thing, it's like, it's like immediately secret. And then you have these, I don't know, like the largest particle accelerator in the U.S. is like at Brookhaven National Labs. It's called Cosmatron. And so a lot of the secret science stuff is going on at these DOE sites. And that Malmgren said that too. Yeah.

Do you think that's just from what I've heard, like, you know, the technology in the iPhone, the screen, whatever, wireless Wi-Fi, all that stuff is like kind of leaked from DARPA. I just heard that. Do you know, have you corroborated that at all? To some extent, that's 100% true and not a conspiratorial.

Like there's a search engine called MNX, which was pre-Google that DARPA had been experimenting with, you know, well before Google. ARPAE created the internet. Like Jacques Vile, who's actually a UFO pioneer, was like working with Doug English. Engelbart on like the earliest part of the internet in like the 70s. Wow. Okay.

Any people from like Lockheed or Northrop or any of those companies that you have a chance to maybe interview and like see from that angle? Because most of it I feel like you're coming or. There's a guy I met from Skunkworks who's like really smart. Doesn't believe in you. He thinks like the UFO stuff is kind of. He believes in UFOs, like, in the ephemeral, like, you see them outside or you see them, you know, like, you know, around, like, nuclear sites or whatever. Okay.

But I don't think he thinks that's the same thing as, like, he thinks it's just human tech, like, at Lockheed and other places. And so. But he works for Skunk Works. He used to. Used to. Yeah. But, like, for, like, 30 years. Okay.

And he, but he's, he's kind of trippy and he believes in a lot of, like, I think he thinks that we've made a lot of progress on a lot of, like, secret tech that. After he left Lockheed or? No, like since even while he was there. But like he kind of hints at stuff. Like he can't always like, you know. What's up guys? I want to tell you about my new favorite boots. These things are epic.

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Again, that's bruntworkware.com, code jesse. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Well, fellas, enjoyed it. Great playing, man. It was an honor. It was an honor. Thank you for bringing yourself down to our level.

It means a lot. We meet each other halfway. I go down on the golf thing and you go down with the UFO stuff. No, no. We meet each other halfway. No. I mean, I might not know more than you, you know. It's fascinating to talk about, so.

It definitely is. And I think there's going to be a lot of momentum in this world for, like, connects. I just, I feel like it's in the zeitgeist. Like, there's so much, even if it's like a vague sense that there's just, I don't know, like, you asked me this, you were like, uh, what if the UFOs just like, don't go anywhere? And I'm like, I just don't think that's going to be the case. And that was like six months again. Yeah, yeah. I would, I would believe that it's going to like keep, keep growing. Take off, yeah. Yeah. You do a fake walk off or just take off? Yeah. You'll see me drive away? Yeah.

Thank you.