American Alchemy with Jesse Michels - Whitley Strieber: "Aliens Live Among Us" (Exclusive Interview)

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

Qualia: Resist aging at the cellular level, try Qualia Senolytic. Go to https://Qualialife.com/JESSE for up to 50% off and use code JESSE at checkout for an additional 15% off. For your convenience Qualia Senolytic is also available at select GNC locations near you. Mando: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get $5 off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code COSMIC at https://ShopMando.com ! #mandopod Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with renowned author Whitley Strieber to discuss the cultural significance of Whitley's groundbreaking book "Communion," which opened dialogue around alien abduction experiences. Whitley reflects on the book's impact, his unexpected feelings of initiating contact with extraterrestrial entities, and his familial connections to government circles. Whitley Strieber's book "Communion": https://amzn.to/3ED4dGM Watch Exclusive Videos & Join Group Calls with Jesse ➤ https://whop.com/americanalchemypremium Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 01:59 The Impact of Communion 05:08 The Government's Response 08:50 Robert Sarbacher 19:30 John Von Neumann 26:25 The Nature of Reality 31:30 Embracing Humanity's Dark Side 37:39 Childhood Memories and Experiments 45:08 Unraveling the Past 53:54 The Nature of the Greys 1:02:37 Telepathy and Human Connection 1:10:28 The Future of Coexistence 1:18:49 The Implant Revelation 1:25:47 The Collins Elite 1:35:25 The CT Scan Conundrum 1:39:36 Insights into the Implant 1:45:34 Meeting Anne 1:56:23 The Blue Dwarfs 2:05:01 The Inquisition vs. Galileo 2:10:35 The Shroud of Turin 2:21:54 The Miracle of Existence Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think, oh my God, I have a shotgun under the bed and a pistol in the side table. I'm from Texas and I'm going to be gunned up at all times. At some point, I was standing in front of the bookstore and that book just like stood, you know, stood out for me. And it was something about seeing the eyes again that almost created like a moment of regression. It might be that this is a time right now where we have to be very careful about preserving our demand. of our reality. There's something in your body that you believe as an implant. I feel like...

Can we see it? You touch it. You can't... I don't... You touch it if you want to. I feel like two years, I can give you a CT scan over the group. Is it okay? Is it okay?

No, it's fine. But I feel like... It might be a little hot because it's been working. Two, three years ago? Two, three years ago, if you had... If you had told someone... Go ahead, touch it. Don't be scared. Okay.

Here, here. I'm kind of scared. It's right under my finger. Oh my God. Different parts of the brain have different activities. But you know that, don't you? Maybe you should interview me. We are here with the legendary Whitley Streber

outside of writing maybe the archetypal alien abduction book Communion in 1987, which sold an incredible amount of copies, inspired a Christopher Walken movie and has started all sorts of mythological lore and really made it acceptable for other direct experiencers to come out along with doing so many other things I mean I literally just bought a book by Stanton Friedman called Top Secret it's about you know the majestic 12 and you wrote the forward to it and so you seem to kind of pop up everywhere and I'm

also joined by the amazing Mark Candil who is the number one supporter of American Alchemy is one third or one fourth of yes theory, founder of yes theory. And I'm always so honored to be graced by his presence at our very small, humble operation in American Alchemy. It's my favorite operation on YouTube, that's where sure. And it's always an honor to just do this together and meet all the amazing people that you just brought into my life over the past three years. Appreciate you, man. Well, you've been really pushing me to do this. You and Whitley met. We all met actually at the Soul Conference. We got lunch before that, but we kind of reconvened at the Soul Conference, which was held by Gary Nolan at Stanford last year. And you guys really hit it off.

And since then, Amar's been, you've got to interview Whitley, got to interview Whitley. Yeah, well, I'm glad you're doing it. Adding to Jesse's intro and even emphasizing the title legendary. I mean, you know, I put this on. It's my first time wearing it. And I think about, like, it's just this figure, our modern depiction of the grace and how much. much that was massively influenced by by you and the book and communion and you being able to have the sketch be so accurate that it just awakened something in millions of it was the eyes mainly that awakened something in people i have to say though if they finally land and come out and they don't look like that i will experience the most profound embarrassment in human history

in my opinion. Because you think that they will look slightly different. No, I don't think they'll look different. I think that, I think, well, they're not going to look exactly like they cover, but they're going to have those big guys, I'm pretty sure. You're responsible for the emoji we all use while text. I know. I know. No, and it's been such a theme over the past, you know,

four years of looking into this topic and meeting people with Jesse and without Jesse, constantly come back to in the 90s at some point I was standing in front of a bookstore and that book just like stood out for me and something about seeing the eyes again that almost created like a moment of regression for so many experiencers. And I almost reflect now, you know,

this is the end of 2024. The entire country seems to be talking about drones and UFOs and it's like the most in the zeitgeist that's been in my lifetime. And, yeah, and I think about, like, the other moment that, you know, before the 2000, where that happened was when communion came out. Right. But there's a significant difference between the two times because when communion came out, it's very interesting. I was told a publication date.

And then all of a sudden, the books were in bookstores. And my editor was very coy about it. I said, you jumped it. In other words, boxes of books appeared without warning at bookstores all over the country. And he said, well, we felt like there was some kind of resistance. I said, what do you mean? He said, I'm not sure. And I don't know whether he meant I'm not sure I should tell you or I'm not sure of the resistance.

But for some reason, they jumped the book about two weeks and it showed up. You know, when I was writing that book, it had crossed my mind that it was going to initiate contact for the ordinary people, which is exactly what it did. I don't know. I might have frozen up. I never occurred to me, never even crossed my mind. I was aware by then that there were people inside the government who had had a certain amount of contact

because I had met a space scientist, David W. Webb, who had, come into our lives, I think through Stanton Friedman, the UFO researcher, and he was very well connected in the intelligence community and very supportive and very friendly, and he met us for dinner and came and stayed at the cabin and said I was doing a wonderful thing and so forth and so on. He was very sweet. So I knew the government was aware of this, of this whole abduction scenario. I think now that they've understood the full extent of it, might not be so willing to say they were aware of it then. But in any case, the fact that this

period, this thing that happened in 85 initiated contact is still sort of surprises me. Because I don't feel like the sort of person. I don't feel like I don't see how it could be me that did it. That's all I can say. And that's exactly why I felt like we needed to have a conversation with you because now that just people are more accepting of the idea that the NHI is most likely involved with disclosure and things moving in the way they have been, I often think I'm like, well, something was very specific about choosing you to have this experience, knowing your background, successful writer, you know, could deliver and experience and articulate what he went through in a way that can make other people connect with that. And I often come back to,

like, how do you, how do you make sense of that today? Oh, I know exactly why they chose me. I can tell you precisely. Well, they chose me for a number of reasons. First, it's a family affair. One of my uncles was heavily involved in this at Bright Patch. General Axon. No, his, my uncle Mickey and General Exxon were worked at, at the Air Material Command in 47. And my father was apparently involved, but he was so secretive. I have no idea whether or not he was.

And your father's an Air Force office? No, no. He was in the, well, he was in the Army during the war. And then there were a couple of incidents in childhood that seemed to me, in retrospect, to involve this. But that's not where I want to go right now. Where I'd like to go right now,

is into this issue of, why me? And that was part of it. I mean, I don't want to go down the road of the details about the family connection. But the most important part is, and I have come to an awareness, and I'm pretty sure I'm right, that they are very concerned about something called cultural colonization. In other words, if they show up with this amazing array of being, skills, technology, mind, they're going to overwhelm us and make us feel completely disempowered. And they don't want that.

They're not looking for slaves. They're looking for friends. And they don't want us to be running around behind them begging for their cell phones or whatever. their cell phones to the beyond or whatever they have. And so the choice of this guy, I can tell a good story. I'm an efficient writer, but I don't come from authority. I'm not a scientist. I'm not Carl Sagan.

I'm not, I don't, I can't, you can take my work and you can say, he was a horror novelist. And he, maybe he wasn't making as much money as he wanted on his horror novels. so he wrote a horror novel and called it real. In other words, you can just opt out if you want to with me. If it was a scientist with a big PhD and a lot of authority, you couldn't opt out. So with me, it's take it or leave it. You can take it. It's accurate. The story is real. And especially if it happened to you, you're going to be able to. You're going to say, wow, this is deeply empowering to me. And that's, this is very important. what they wanted. And I think that's why I ended up where I was. Wow, that's amazing.

So you were kind of chosen as a no... I mean, something that you've talked about as well as the great John von Neumann, who is known for being an absolute genius in his time, smarter than all of the other incredibly smart scientists in the U.S., Hungarian, and studied at a very, you know, actually notorious school in Hungary along with his colleague Jonathan Vigner and was just known as, laid the mathematical foundations for quantum mechanics, a lot of modern computational principles. He has said, and you've cited, he's written a paper on the aliens possibly

needing to be believed into existence. And if they do exist in some sort of parallel timeline or dimension, that human consensus belief needs to shift into kind of actually manifesting them. And so you would be an incredibly important kind of first node of creating that sort of belief. Well, yeah, and that has been the source of a lot of friction for me in my life. Internal friction and friction with people on the inside who are aware of what you just said.

Now, as far as this goes, let's go back and let's explore of an annoyment a little bit. Very interesting. He came up with, he was involved in this. I think that we're past the point of saying, oh, these scientists who were supposedly in the Majestic 12 group, if that was even its real name, that's all nonsense. It's just San Friedman made the whole thing up. That's not true. They were involved. A couple of data points to support you before you go on is Robert Sarbacher said John von Neumann was directly involved.

Right. And Von Neumann died of a really kind of gnarly form of cancer, and he had secrets. service outside of the naval hospital that he, that he was in. Because they were afraid of what he might say. That's exactly right. I knew Robert Sarbacher. You knew Sarbacher. Oh, absolutely.

No way. Stan Friedman was a, was a catalyst. And he introduced me to Robert Sarbacher and to other people. The thing Sarbacher was involved? And then we'll get back to Von Braun. Yeah, I knew Sarbacher was involved. In fact, I'll tell you a fairly weird story here. Stanton gave me Sarbocker's number.

and then he called me back and he said, Sarvacher is waiting for you to call him. He's very eager to talk to you. So I call Sarvrocker. Sarvacher proceeds to tell me all kinds of detail about the materials that he was working on at the Patel Memorial Institute about how when electron microscopes became operative,

they understood that there was a molecular, grid, a designed grid inside this very thin material, and that was what made it so strong. And I think that's probably been extrapolated out into our military technology in many different ways, and possibly civilian as well. And he asked me, I narrated my experience to him, this is before communion was even written. How'd you meet him? Through St. Friedman. Okay. So, and I narrated it to him, and he said, I want you to write it all down and send it to me. So the next day, I sat at my typewriter, I wrote the whole story out, I put it in an envelope, and we weren't near, we were, I was at my cabin in upstate New York, and we were not near FedEx, but UPS had just started overnighting. And so they were willing to come pick it up.

So I called the UPS office, and they came along, and they picked it. up to take it to Sarbock. The next morning, I get a call from the UPS guy on the scene saying, we can't deliver it. The recipient has expired. He's dead. He died. Barbocker?

Yeah, that came to him. Give me chills. Wow. The night he died. But that was after community. This must have been 87 or 80. I believe it was 86. Yeah, he died right around then.

I thought he wrote to William Sten. Oh. Well, it was, it was wild communion at that point was being created. And that I'm quite sure of the, I'm quite sure of the dates. Wow. That's crazy. So, well, it was very scary. And I, and I've, you think it was related to your correspondence at him?

I have no idea. He was, I was told later that he fell off his boat. And I know the UPS guy said he fell off his boat. And, uh, the death certificate says natural causes. Well, the common. context around what was happening at this time is Sarko had just written a letter to William Steinman, who's another UFO researcher, who was actually an employee of Skunkworks who got basically fired over his research around UFOs. And he was saying, you know, yes, there was a program. And von Neumann, Vannevar Bush, Oppenheimer were all involved. And he says these beings are like insects, you know, they're very lightweight. And he talks about crafts and stuff. So maybe he was killed for you're running his mouth or something. I don't know. He was head of Washington National Labs, and David Grush has said on record that he set up UFO secrecy in 1954.

And I know he was very close with Thomas Townsend Brown, who was a mid-century anti-gravity. Who set up UFO secrecy? Sarbox, along with Oppenheimer. Well, what's so fascinating about that is Sauer rocker would, he talked about it very openly. Well, that's the thing. He was then, I didn't realize he died like that. He was scrubbed from the internet. There is nothing on Sarebocker now.

All you can see is a little memorial from, you know, I think is some Florida local magazine or whatever. I know other people who are deep inside who are like that, who were extraordinary, had extraordinary lives, and now you can barely find them on the internet. Like who? Well, we're not going to go down that bad. Let's keep talking about Sauerhocker. Do you think? I'm sure.

Well, maybe, and maybe talking to me was a mistake. I was very frightened by it. I'll tell you that. And if you read Communion, you'll see my references to this, but I don't mention his name in Communion because I was scared to it. That was Sarbock. Well, Sarbocker's son has now gone on record saying, my father told me that he used to put cameras on, you know, modified versions of VT rockets in order to chase UFOs. That has a familiar ring. He might have said that to me, actually.

Really? I don't remember it directly, but it does have a familiar ring. Well, that was more and more is coming out about Sarbocker. and Ross Colthard has some interesting data points around some of the nuclear engineers, old-timers, that he's met with in Australia, knowing who Sarbacher was. I think Sarbacher even taking a trip out there because they had their Womera nuclear test site. Right. And so there being some correspondence there.

And so that's fascinating. You didn't realize. For context, when we did the documentary with Grush last year, I asked him, there was one person that you can ask questions that can allow you to understand. understand the architecture of the program. Who would it be? And he said it was Sarbach. How fascinating. Because Salbachers spent a couple hours on the phone with me. So they knew. They knew what was happening to me. They had to have known. They wouldn't have done that. Well, when Townsend Brown finally achieved a positive result with his anti-gravity experiments,

this was in Paris. He flies back to the U.S. and Robert Sarbacher picks him up in his big Cadillac. and you know that's that's a noted by his daughter linda and and and his historian paul shatskin and so i think uh you know he was he seemed deeply involved in all this stuff and he's written big textbooks he was known for having you know an ique of 200 plus and um i think having some correspondence with ian sarah bark oh yeah yeah he was obviously extremely smart very quick yeah and uh full of insight either way and uh really i think he did a lot of good That must have been encouraging for you before community was made to just know that you were. Well, the first time I wrote it down was for him.

Wow. Oh, and the UPS said, we'll send the thing back to you, but I never received it. He's written a book, too, about ultra-high-frequency physics, which is basically, if you think about what happens at ultra-high frequencies, that's the stuff that the National Science Foundation is now quietly admitting, unfortunately, the necessary and only impetus that will allow us to release suppressed science is kind of game theory vis-a-vis other countries and national security,

but they're now releasing this model of extended electrodynamics, which you could say people like Starbacher, we're probably looking into in the 50s because these are sort of microwave really extremely, you know, high up the electromagnetic scale, you know, very short wavelengths that have all sorts of weird effects, you know, and explain a lot of the biological effects as well

when it comes to UFOs. Well, that's very interesting. I haven't kept up with that. I want to get, let's get back, though, to, on Noyman. Yeah. Because, and parenthetically, on the way back to Von Neumann, he didn't tell me personally,

but he told a member of my family, not Von Neumann, General Exen, that he had held when the debris and bodies were brought into air material, he had held one of the bodies and he said this is from the roswell crash yeah he had said he said it was like a big insect yes and that's certainly my impression of them only they're not big i mean there some of them are very small some of them are bigger but that was that night when i woke up in that room my immediate thought was my God, bugs, huge bugs.

And that's why I thought it was having a nightmare, because I came to this with no idea it could happen. Now let's get back to von Neumann. Von Neumann, there's two things, is the von Neumann machine, which is he postulated a machine that would replicate the species that built it and would then move around the galaxy looking for planets that it could seed.

What if that's what we have here? Only von Neumann in his, I don't recall if it's in very much detail in the writings he did about this, but he does mention that something like that over vast amounts of time would inevitably have a certain amount of deterioration of its, its memory. What if what we have here is something that was programmed to seed planets like this,

but not programmed to find someone else, because they had as much trouble as we're having, finding other people and decided there weren't any. And so it arrives, it finds us and doesn't know what to do. And that's why we have this bizarre situation that if you look, step back from the whole thing, it could be, it looks a little bit like an AI that has gone berserk. Von Norman, the Von Neumann machine could be an explanation for why this is so peculiar. Let me put it that way. But the other thing that Von Norman, and you

referenced briefly this paper earlier, there was supposedly a paper. And General Exxon, who was no scientist but had been exposed to a lot of scientists involved in this and was very smart. Tried to explain this to me. And of all the scientists who were involved in it, I thought he was most likely talking about something that von Neumann would have thought up, would have conceived. They could have been other scientists involved in it that I don't know about. But the paper supposedly is just a couple of pages long. and if it even still exists, because a lot of this stuff is gone with the wind, I'm sure, by now.

And what it postulates is that if this presence is not from this physical universe, or even if possibly even if it is, in order to become part of our reality where it does not exist in any way, It has to gain a deeper, within us, we have to come to a deeper realization of its reality. It has to be as real for us as we are to each other as this is to us, as this is to us, as our world is. If it's not from our world, it has to break through into our reality by taking us, not just to a level of belief in its presence, but to an assumption about its presence

that is as basic as our assumption about the rest of the reality that we know. Fascinating. How do we get our hands on that paper? Because we know on record that Von Neumann, I mean, no scientist would dispute this. He entertained this idea that the mind is responsible for wave function collapse. Yeah, that's exactly why I think he wrote the paper precisely. And he explored that idea.

And so it would be something he would think of, definitely. And it is what he's talking about in the paper, I would assume, is an intervention in the process of the collapse of wave function by this other presence that alters the way function collapses when we perceive. So fascinating. Yeah. Now, that would also explain, and I take this extremely seriously, because I think we're talking about something real. You understand? I respect this belief. I think this paper existed.

Maybe it still does. And it's why when people are all angry about, you know, the government won't disclose and so forth, I say, wait a minute. And they say, well, we're ready. And I say, no, we're not. we don't because you say we're ready for it but we don't know what it is that's right therefore we are not ready and here's the problem i wrote a short story about this about von norman's death called the open doors about his fear that this is a door which opens in the mind and in the perceptual system and can never be closed so once the door is

once we have accepted them into our reality, we can never get rid of them. We can never tell them, no, it turns out we don't want you here because we don't like you and we don't like what you're doing to us. We can't do that. The door opens only once and only in one direction and forever. Now, if that isn't a motive to hide this, to keep it secret, people scorn the Collins elite. They say, well, they think it's demons and we're supposed to ignore demons and that's why they do. It might go a little deeper than that. It might be that this is a time right now where we have to be very careful about preserving our dominion of our reality and to think of this in some new ways. What do we do right now if we are going to let them into our reality?

And I think ultimately we have to. But on our terms, they cannot come into and take our reality. We must not lose dominion. This is what my new book is basically about. And I don't want to, I'm not flacking my book here, but it does, it has come up. Well, how do we maintain sovereignty while letting them? Because we have to understand their motives and their functionality, their functionality, their physical functionality, their motives, their understanding of themselves. And we have to, even if it's not

necessarily a completely correct conclusion factually, we have to come to a decision about what we want them to be in our reality. And this has got to be a decision that is so deep that it is below the level of ordinary discourse in a deeper level of consciousness. which is the level of consciousness which von Neumann was talking about when he was talking about the way perception collapses the wave function it's at that point that we control this fascinating that's yeah i mean so this brings this interesting question up philosophically of like we all three of us probably at this table like are somewhat more pro the reindexamination enchantment of the world or anti kind of materialist reductionism, this idea that, you know,

everything's kind of happening randomly and lacks meaning. But once you kind of let that in your life, the idea that, you know, maybe there is a hierarchy of being, maybe humans aren't at the top of it, maybe things are way more magical than they seem, it is a Pandora's box. And the farther and deeper you get kind of ontologically, you know, as far as kind of chasing truth, the more evil you have to face and fight as well. And so how do you ensure that human consciousness raises kind of commensurately with our, you know, unveiling, you know, epistemologically? Well, that gets me to a story of something that happened to me in the 1970s before any of this was in my life. But other people already knew it would be, apparently. I went, but my wife was a very social person and she had lots of friends in New York.

and we went to a lot of parties. I was even invited to some of the parties, but told, don't be depressing or I'll throw you out, and you'll have to go them all. In any case, at this party, there was this lady who wanted to sit with me and talk with me. She said, Mr. Whitley, she talked with an accent. Let's sit down over here, and we sat down,

and she said, I want to tell you my story. My story is this. I was working. I was doing the magical working, she said, in a stettel in Poland in the 1930s, and we pushed away the dark side. We had made extraordinary progress in animating a glem, but we absolutely walled off the dark side,

which kept trying to enter our working in different ways. suddenly across the river, there burst tanks with men in them in black uniforms with death's heads on their caps. And we realized that we had

forced the dark side to come in on its own and it had broken down the door. This woman walked from Poland to China over the next six years. And there were still an American presence in China when she arrived. And General Stillwell got her to the United States where she rejoined the same community

that she was in in Poland, which had moved to the United States. it is terribly important that we understand what the dark side is and not say it's demons and we don't want it, we push it away. We have to understand that it's the wellspring of knowledge and we have to take care with it. I mean, you don't, you do not dance with the tiger, but you respect the tiger's presence in the world. So how do you do that? Because you've said on record many times you think you are where you are as far as your worldview because your curiosity trumps your fear. It does.

I know that for sure. On the one hand, you have all these myths like, you know, the philosopher's stone or the Holy Grail or, you know, you're seeking truth and you find it and you realize it's within or something and the outer is the inner, you know, the, Sadartha, you know, you have all these stories like that, it's kind of hero's journey. And then you also have stories like Faust and Prometheus of going for the story. the forbidden truth, for the knowledge, and then getting burned. And so how do you tow that line? Well, the first thing we have to do is to understand that all of us contain, boused. All of us

are Prometheus, and we always will be. That's called being human. And the best way to do this is to fully embrace in our deepest hearts the honest truth about our humanity. It's dark side and its light side. We all want to be good people. But that's not all we are, not one of us. That's not our nature. Our nature is to be sentimental about the good, but enjoy the bad and the dark. And that is, look, the whole, the whole expression of rock and roll is about that. It is an incredibly important expression, a new kind of expression of the human spirit. So I love it so much.

Although I don't have the ears for it anymore. Unfortunately, I have to earplugs when I go to concerts. I hate it. Who's your favorite? I'm not going to get into that. I don't think, I don't want to go down to the rock and roll road. You'll be here doing that all day in your, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, Your fans were saying, why didn't you talk about rock and roll for two hours? Come on.

They want to know the real Whitley. Well, no, the real Whitley is actually also a huge classical music fan and an opera fan. Okay. So I'm a real culture vulture on many different levels. Amazing. Yeah. What do you think, speaking of the dark side, you obviously experienced this famous, you know, abduction, if you will, in 1985. Prior to that, you had a very interesting childhood, and you hint at possibly having undergone secret

experiments you grew up next to Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio. Well, something happened. I know, let's go back to that. I mean, let's go back there in time. I'm not saying let's return to it later. I'm sorry. Here's what happened as far as I can put it together. First of all, I was seven years old when this happened.

So therefore, my memories of it are very confused and very sparse. But I have a very close friend. We grew up together in Texas and like, A lot of Texas families are. Family connection probably goes back to before the Civil War. Family friendships in the South are quite common. And we're still closest friends. He's my closest friend in the world.

He is very high up in this world in a completely different area from anything remotely connected. Is it science or is it? No, it's another area. It's something to do with government. Interesting. And, but we are, you know, we, we spend every New Year's together. I'll be with him in a, in his wife in a few weeks and a week and a half. He was also recruited.

And when I told him the story, he's known all of, he's read all my books in manuscript. He knows all the story backwards and forwards. And, uh, you'd laugh if you saw how very different his place in the world is from mine. And we keep our friendship secret. I'm not going to, don't bother their probe about it because I won't go there because we have to. Not because we want to because we have to. So in any case, he remembers, he was nine and I was seven. I don't remember anything about that recruiting me.

He was recruited and he was in the living room when the Air Force people came and they knew them. We knew a lot of Air Force, but I'm sure my parents knew them too. and they said to the parents that it was an accelerated learning program for children with very, very high IQs. And there would only be three or four children in the program in tech in San Antonio, but implication was, it was nationwide. And maybe I'm saying a little more than he said, but that was, this is, I think it's logical extrapolation. and they asked about the program and he remembers them saying that it involved the use of a Skinner box, which I would assume my parents had no idea of what that was.

But his parents did know and they said, no. This was a box that a person was put in. So for the context for the audience, the BF Skinner was a mid-century psychologist that worked on kind of behavioral conditioning. So, you know, how do you honestly often manipulate biological systems to, like, do certain things over and over, you ring a bell or what? It's kind of like Avlov's dog sort of thing. Yeah.

Well, it was repetitive learning is what it was, trapped in a room in a little box with repetitive learning. All I remember is a dark place I couldn't get out of and noise, horrible noise. I don't remember any repetitive learning. That's all I remember. In any case, come October, this started in August of 1952. Come October, I began to get sick constant. I couldn't, I was getting one cold and so my mother takes me to the doctor. It turns out I have no immune system.

It's broken. It's broken down. So they take me out of the program. I don't even remember any of this. I was told this. I wasn't told my mother never told me anything about the program, but I surmise I was taken out of it because the next thing I do remember very vividly is I end up at Brook General Hospital,

a little seven-year-old thin little seven-year-old boys being in an isolated in a room and given gamma globulent shots. And by these doctors who, you know, these huge needles, I mean, this is the early 50s, right? Needles are like gigantic and these huge needles are coming at me. and they would get so nervous, the needle would go through my arm and the stuff would drip down my chest. It was just awful. And then after a few days, I'm taken home. I can't see anybody.

I'm fed separately. I'm isolated. Until after Christmas, I go back to school finally in January. My mother kept my report card. It said absent due to illness, absent due to illness semester, month after month, all of her life. And we found it in their personal effects after she passed. And I said to my sister, I want that report. And she said, sure, I'll give it to you.

She destroyed it instead. And I said, why did you do that? I wanted that. And she wouldn't say anything about it. She said, Whitley, I just did it. What does your instinct tell you on what the Skinner Box and these experiments were for? Were they to make you a high performer? No, they were to crack the cosmic egg, I think.

So kind of liberate the soul from the body and light astral travel? No, because the visitors showed up a couple of years later, or right then maybe, right even then. And I think that that was the purpose. And I think that. To make you a receptor. Yeah, I think that this started. I'll tell you what I have surmised, and I can't prove this. I think it started at Dachau.

I think it started in the camps. And I think that children who were being gassed sometimes after the gassing, they weren't there. anyone. Everyone, you know, the people would all rush into the center of the thing and try to go up because the gas was low and they would die in these pyramids of humanity, all of them clawing for the ceiling. And the children would always be at the bottom crushed flat like bugs. And sometimes, you know, the Nazis kept extremely careful records. And sometimes I suspect some of children weren't there. And that noise I remember from those box, that box, I think that's the sound a recorded of the screaming from inside the, they were trying to duplicate the conditions of the

gas chamber to see if they could induce this power in another, in highly intelligent. What's the, so the kids weren't there after? I don't know. They disappeared. They went into another reality. So I know you've worked with Peter LeVenda. He wrote a book called Unholy Alliance. Right. It's getting into really speculative territory that I don't, I don't personally feel high conviction in, but I'm curious to get your take on, which is that, you know, the Nazis somehow allied themselves with an unholy force of non-human intelligence. I don't even want to go down that path. I don't feel a level of conviction about it either. I think the Nazis were just shits. But LeVenda also helped you uncover that some of these experiments,

might have been post-operation paperclip, secret Nazi experiments of some of these Germans coming over. A lot of the Operation Paperclip people apparently lived in my neighborhood. And my father was on a big house on the hill and then across the street, a couple houses down is an FBI agent and his wife. And then the street over, there's these scientists. So God knows what that's all about. I have no idea.

And then I'm going out to Randolph every Thursday night. for these things. And then that ends. And, you know, I sort of go back to living a normal kid life. I have a wonderful childhood. It's almost that made me think, is there something about inducing such a high state of human suffering that opens a crack in the same way that an immense amount of love

and, like, focused intention can also open, you know, cracks open something in our fields that, allows, you know, someone who's thinking out of you with a lot of love allows you to maybe feel that. Yeah, I think you might be on the right track. I think that's exactly what it was about. And even when I think about the idea of angels and demons, for one force is like exploiting human potential and humanity

to like the most that they can. And then the other forces, there's like a levitate, like they're trying to levitate or elevate the, just the way we think and the way we think and the way we act, and maybe the extremes do do something to our reality that then brings in things. Today, I want to share something that's become a game changer for me personally. Qualia senolytic.

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from head to toe with mando again get five dollars off a starter pack with our exclusive code use code cosmic at shopmando dot com thanks again to mando for sponsoring today's episode of american alp well i started to have weird experiences in my childhood after this and uh i had a normal childhood and the weird experiences were very compartmentalized. I remember an incident, two incidents. I remember an incident of my father taking me out to the country house. And in the middle of the night, it was cold, so it must have been the winter. And this strange car showed up with these glowing lights that didn't shine and came rushing down the road and stopped in front of the house very abruptly like it was not a normal car. And then the next thing I knew, this object

that was squared off came tumbling across the sky and went into the back pasture behind the house. And it was back there glowing. And I tried to talk to my dad and he was just standing there. He couldn't, he couldn't move or didn't move. And then I felt like I needed to go find out what was going on. And I went out toward the back pasture. And that's all. all I remember. And then the other incident was very weird. Suddenly, one afternoon, my mother and father gathered up my then baby brother and my sister, and they all went to the country house leaving me at home with my dog alone at a age of 11.

Without ex-you know, mother said, well, just call us if you need anything. You know, yeah, I needed a lot of things like a dinner and, you know, a life and, you know, not being left in the house alone and scary night by myself. Yeah. So after a while, I eventually, I mean, I made a dinner, probably peanut butter sandwich or something. And I went to watch a little TV and then went up to bed to find I had an air conditioner. This is house was too old to have been centrally air conditioned. And there was a window air conditioner that looked out on a window and there was a lower roof

behind that, beyond that window. And the window above the sash above the air conditioner was sealed. And it had been pulled down. And the seal was all hanging loose. And I could see it was obvious that it was just little past dusk. There was someone on the roof. And so I went down and called the country house And my mother answered and she said, well, if there's someone on the roof, telephone the police. Does you see how strange this all is? Yeah, she didn't come rushing home. Right, exactly. Or why did they go in the first place?

So your dad must have had some involvement in that. I mean, he must have. So you must have speculated, you know, if he was this high-ranking Army officer who he probably had clearances, right? But I don't know. I know he, listen, he would tell you, mother said, well, he is. found apartments for for uh for uh for uh GI uh the wives of GIs who were abroad and then he if you asked him what he did doing the war he said well I just used to pick up cigarette butts at Fort Sam Houston keep the keep the place clean and so you know I'd have no idea what he did but you're

pretty sure that's not true I have a feeling somehow I didn't pick up cigarette butts, yeah. Yeah. And what was his name? His first is Carl Streber K.A.R. Okay. And so, but getting back to this, the, the, the, I went downstairs to call the police. But I, you know, there's no 9-11 in those days.

I didn't know how I called police. So I'm, you've got the phone book, there's a man in the house upstairs. coming to the house in any moment. And I'm looking in the front of the phone book for the local De Teryl Hills, the local police. I finally find the number. I call them. And the lady answers.

And we only had like three cops. It was a small community, a bedroom suburb of San Antonio, but an independent city, save on taxes. And a cop comes. I know the cop. I know all the cops. All the kids do. It's not, you know, it's a very small scale deal.

It parks it down at the front of the, it's a half acre front lawn with big, huge hedge, like 60 feet tall Augustum hedge and a bower kind of at the, and he comes through and I see him coming out, coming up out of the shadows. And he's got his gun out like this. He's coming to the house with his gun at his hands. And it scared the hell out of me. You know, what did he know that I didn't know? And so he comes in the house and I say he's up on the roof and he goes running upstairs. Seconds later, he comes running down and yelling, there's no one there. There's no one there.

He runs down to his car, gets in it, and drives off. That was it. Then what happens to me? I actually don't know. The rest of the night, I don't remember a thing about it. I remember my parents and my sister coming home. the next morning. It was a beautiful morning.

It came home at about 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, before noon, because I had lunch with them. I'd made my own breakfast. I remember that. That's the story. And you're still in communication with the NHI.

Is that right? As of today. Oh, my, yes. It's part of my life. It's my life. Non-human intelligence. I am in communication with something. Do they manifest themselves as

grays for you or still? No, not often. Once in a Coons age, about a year ago, I'm pleading. I want you to, A, come in front of the cameras. I've got two different camera systems

in the house. I've been trying to get pictures of them since the 80s. Do you have any? No. I do. I have very little stuff. A few things.

They got pissed off at me. a couple of years ago, and all these explosions, strange explosions got picked up as a result of that and on the cameras. And I've got that. And they like me to wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning to mune, I guess. Yeah. Is it that a specific time? Well, it's an hour. If I'm right about what it is, there's an ancient yogic tradition of,

Brahama Mahirtha time. The time, you're not in your head. Yeah, yeah. Because in Islam, it's also, there's like, in a lot of religions, that time is, is, like, very sacred. You do commune with God, like, the highest, the highest, yeah, yeah, in Islam, the prayer that you do around that time is the one where, where you're supposedly closest to God. And I think it has something to do with, actually, like, having gone to Joe Dispenza retreat,

there was a whole thing around, like, a melatonin being a, There's something mystical about that we still don't understand about how melatonin makes the, makes the brain act when we're asleep. And that's why some of his meditation you'd make you wake up during that time. Well, I wake up during that time every night, every single night. And in fact, for years after my wife passed away, back in the 90s. Well, what is, between three and four? Well, it's supposed, you know, the interesting thing was that.

it's supposed to be an hour and a half or an hour and 30 minutes before dawn. And so that's why I, you know, at first, they would wake me up physically. They would blow in my face. I would get a little kiss. I wrote a point. I have a book of poems out called The Hidden Garden, which has been read by, I think, 12 people and another 14 people listen to the audiobook. But, you know, poetry is not.

Go out and check out Whitley's poetry. Come on. Yeah, do it, folks. Do you check out. It's a nice point. Anyway, I wrote a poem about this experience, and it was not an unpleasant experience. You know, you get to the point where you have to learn something about sleep, healthy sleep. You're going to go crazy, getting waked up at that hour every night.

And, you know, they do not, they do not stop. So after she passes back in the 90s, There was a period of time where they were waking me up at that hour. Then we lost the cabin, we leave the cabin, and that doesn't happen. Then she gets ill and she passes on. And a few days after she passes on, it starts again, they start waking me up at 3 o'clock around that time. And it becomes a very big part of my life, very important because, I can feel the communing going on.

I can feel it really intensely. And part of it is involved, seems to be involved with my wife. And other dead people and the dead and the aliens are kind of all. Do you think, you know, we talk about the community of the saints in Christianity, do you think that it's somewhat similar where you're commuting it with this? It feels incredibly sacred. It's something I would not. every once in a while, I don't do it because what happened at first for the first five years

from 2015 until 2020, they woke me up religiously every night. Then they began to not necessarily wake me up every night, but I was expected to wake myself up. And I found that out the hard way as if I decided, well, they're not waking me up, so I can sleep all night. That wasn't the idea. Do you get any messages from them particular? Oh, God. I've written all my books since 2015 have been written based on this. What are some big recurring themes

as far as messages you are supposed to get out to humanity from them? Well, if you look across the books, what you see are two things. One is we are more than physical creatures. And two is we have

value. More. value than we ourselves recognized. We are very, very valuable and extraordinary beings. We're not the lesser. We are in our own way. We are another masterpiece of the universe. And you can see that. That's the arc.

If there's any arc in those books, that's the arc. And it comes up very strongly in the new book, which is basically about empowerment. Do you, because I've read your book on Jesus actually. Who did? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, thank you. Of course.

I thought it was great. And it definitely has like gnostic underpinnings around your view of Jesus that he ascended to, you know, in traditional Christianity, he was the son of God. He was also Godlike. But I think you view him as possibly one of many. And so going to your point about humans, generically speaking, being more special. or more godlike? Would that be your sort of worldview? Capable of coming to deity.

Because we're not like the angels and perhaps the demons. We don't have to be anything. We can take a journey. We have that freedom to take a journey. And the grays do not have that freedom. They know too much. to have that kind of freedom. But they see too far ahead in time and too far back in time too clearly to really have free will.

They don't have free will. That's interesting. So you're like if they're, because I remember one part of communion, it's like this kind of joke, but it's twisted and it's so visceral. And the being says, soon, my dear, you'll be one of us or something. Just like us. Yeah. And so it's like they're almost, they've moved so far down this path that they've hit this sort of cul-de-sac. And so they know too much.

And they're trying to come back to warn us, to inflect in some sort of more godly way or something. And to also enjoy communing with us, because when they are in communion with you, they are experiencing time the same way you do. Everything is new. How do you discern between good and bad in that scenario where if you do think, that this is some sort of parallel or alternate timeline, what if it's bad entities and they're trying to ensure that their own sustenance and through trickery and deception?

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the same thing. We have these choices. Human beings can make choices that they can't make. It's too late for the grace. They know too much they can't make choices. Do you think they do exist on some sort of timeline where something happened? Like the classic speculation about the grace would be like they are the victims of some sort of nuclear holocaust or cataclysm.

They've lost the melanin in their skin because. the atmosphere is sort of, you know, blocking the sun, you know, due to nuclear debris or whatever. Do you believe that or any sort of specific version of who they are, where they're coming from? Well, I know now that we have bodies here, that we have, biologists have studied here, and that those studies are ended. I don't know if they, I hope they still have the bodies because, you know, they, they, Those studies were never released and they're done in secret and there's probably a lot of biology still to be done on those bodies if they would ever be brought out into the public space in science, which would be wonderful. But so we have bodies.

But I'll tell you a few things about these bodies. One is they are a mix of biology and not exactly machinery. putting it too far, but they, they, um, like biological replicas of some sorts. They're like, uh, something somebody built. Somebody with a certain amount of skill in, in, in genetics built these, but not, not unlimited skill because they're not, uh, all that, you know, there's things about them that don't work very well.

Yeah. I mean, I also thought that, like, if you're going to, if you're going to, if, you're going to engineer a being that kind of looks like it's very grail small like you you you get back to the hybrids which are they are they are engineered and they are very fluently telepathic but they are also unvoiced and they are extremely autistic and if you go online and a Spotify or Apple podcast or somewhere and you can can find a podcast called the telepathy tapes. Thinking over by Storm right now.

Yeah, it's amazing. I just interviewed Kai and Dr. Powell, actually. Oh, you did. I'm going to interview Kai in a few days, actually. Amazing. I discovered this. In the second I discovered it, I realized how important it was. I'm glad it's come up.

But these people are unvoiced and autistic. Yes. Now, I have friends who are telepathies. and are not unvoiced. And I think there may be some people in working with the, in the IC and probably other intelligence communities around the world who are telepathic and not unvoiced. Yeah. But in any case, one of my friends who's telepathic recently had a contact with an unvoiced person

who was shocked because she she he wasn't used to having a you know another telepath around and he and she had to really calm him down they were but uh and said don't worry about it i'm i'm not going to do anything i'm just here you know i can't help it either so um but i kai is a lovely person yeah she's awesome yeah and i think really in this for the right reasons and uh for context for the audience the number four podcasts in the country right now which is absolutely one wild. Kai Dickens is this amazing filmmaker. She was rejected by all these, you know, production houses as far as making this into a, you know, larger documentary and just kind of DIY style recorded this. It's, she's found all these nonverbal autistic children who were

formally being studied by this Harvard neuroscientist, a woman named Dr. Diane Powell. And it's really remarkable. You have these kids being put in, you know, their parents are put in one room, kid is put in the other room. The parents are. sees a random image generated on an iPad or a TV or whatever out of, you know, a thousand or 10,000 images. And the kid guesses what their parent is looking at with almost 100% accuracy, 95% plus accuracy. And so it moves because all of these studies in the parapsychology world of mind or matter or whatever have traditionally been super weak. You need extremely large amounts of data and cohorts. And you end up in these endless arguments because people are too lazy to

actually look at the data. And in this case, case, you have conclusive data. And all these kids are spiritually, while physically they're, you know, nonverbal, they're seen as totally maladjusted, you know, whatever. Spiritually, they seem far more evolved than all of us. They meet up on the hill together and they hang out and they talk about God constantly in the kingdom of heaven. And they seem to have faith in some sort of higher world that we all just... They do. They have limited access to. And kindness and... truth-telling are essential in that world.

And there's savants. They know every, they know languages better than the Spanish teacher without having learned it. It's absolutely amazing. Sorry. Yeah, they are. And it's, you know,

it gets me to the hybrids who are, I don't know, I know a few of them. And I, are there some that are functional? Are there aliens walking among us? Well, okay,

here's the functionality issue. The ones I know are not voiced. which immediately makes them essentially profoundly crippled in this society. Oh, so they're non-verbal. That's what I'm saying. They're non-void. They can't talk.

And they often have to use techniques, this one called RPM, to type, about what they feel. But they, no, they live in an uncle. They don't do that. I mean, they're not, they're not interfacing with the world around them, which is a huge problem.

I've talked to Kai about it. We're going to get together and try to figure out, can we help them? Because they're very, They're very autistic And they are fluently telepathic And you know

I'm I'm telepathic But passive telepathic In other sense in the sense that If I'm around a telepath I can have telepathy with them very easily And I will pick them If I'm near someone who's telepathic I'll pick it up right away

Should we try to do like a do you think about a color Oh no I can't I can't project it In other words I can't read your mind in your mind. But if someone who is telepathic was in the room, we could converse. That's, that's, that, that, that, that, so I was walking in the grocery store the other day that I'm, live fairly near some of them. I think. I don't know where they live exactly, but I do see

them around. And of course, I pick it up immediately. This woman is walking in, in front of me. And I hit, I'm hit by, I realize, oh, shit, it's one of them. And she goes, ha, ha! She runs, looks around. She's got a skateboard. And she starts to come after me, with the skateboard and I think, holy shit, what is how am I going to be beaten to death by one of the hybrids because she's scared of me. And so she can't, she wants to leave the store. She wants to run out of the store, but I'm in the doorway. So she turns around and runs off into the store and I think, just calm down, witty, let her go. I'm not going to follow her anything. And so I just go and concentrate on what I'm looking for. I do not put my mind on her in any way.

get my stuff and I go out. And there's often somebody waiting, another one will waiting, you know, they have these old cars. They don't have much money. And so the other one that's waiting outside is there. And I come out and go into my car and he looks at me and he goes like that. And I know I'm good. I've passed. They're not going to be pissed off. But that's reality. It's a reality, and I'm sorry. It's real. It's real. The telepathy is very real. Do you think any of the hybrids are functional human beings that are walking around? Not that I have met. And they also all smoke all the time. And why do they do that? Well, I went to this, into this very extensively. I spoke to a psychiatrist who specializes in treating schizophrenics, and he really solved it for me. He said,

schizophrenics smoke, not to suppress the voices in their heads, but to smooth out the nicotine smooths out the emotions. It calms you. And the hybrids smoke all the time. They never stop. All the time. And, you know, in this society, you know, at Santa Monica is practically has a no smoking sign on the city on the, on the, on the boundaries of the city. I mean, this is not a place where you smoke very comfortably anywhere. And so, you know, they're very isolated and they're very unhappy and they're not, they're poor. And I'm hoping, and this seems to me to be completely impossible. I'm hoping that we will be able to reach out to them in some way and bring them into society.

Because we've got wonderful people, human, regular people, human, people, caring good people who can help them. Have you ever read the sci-fi novel, Childhood's End? I certainly have. So in that book, as you know, there are the overlords, these sort of cosmic hosts, if you will, that are attempting to make contact with mankind. Right. They do it through this cadre of telepathic children.

Yes. And these telepathic children are sort of the Paul Revere's, if you will, of humanity that are starting, you know, this communications channel to this. higher, higher kind of Borg-like being, what do you think of that? Do you think that's, that, that's a case of fiction becoming reality or he was obviously a very extraordinary man. He was fat, Arthur C. Clark was fascinating. Fascinating man. He's probably MI6. Oh, probably, yeah. He lived in Sri Lanka. He wrote a book about a portal in Sri Lanka on the top of a mountain and now, you have to speculate that he actually thought that there was one or something.

Well, of course he did. I'm sure he did. Yeah. I had these strange experience with him. I had a friend, Mike Smith, when I was living in London, he was also an American. He was a very good artist. And in those days, the English were easily fooled by fake credentials. So he made some fake credentials for a paper called the Chicago Citizen, which didn't even exist. And we used to use these credentials to get into places we didn't belong, like Ask at Opening Day, and the premiere of which is 2001. Space Odyssey, yeah. Yeah, Arthur C. Clark's movie, the Earth, okay.

Yeah, Arthur C. Clark, Stanley Kubrick, based on actually a novel by Arthur C. Clark called The Sentinel. Right. So Arthur C. Clark is there. I end up sitting beside Arthur C. Clark in the movie. No way. I'm telling you the truth. That's crazy. And so, you know, I'm very quiet, of course, because I don't want to, I don't want to get thrown out, and I don't think it'd be too long before another Americans can understand, realize that I'm there based on complete bullshit. And so I'm sitting there.

Or you were meant to be there. Maybe. And I asked afterwards, he turns to me, and he introduces himself, as if he didn't know who he was. And I tell him my name. And he said, well, why are you here? And I said, well, I'm from the Chicago citizen. The Chicago citizen, he says.

I said, yeah, it's a new paper. Oh, he says, well, what do you think? Are you going to write a review? I said, yes, I'm going to write a review, and I'm in the review. I'm going to say that you are a genius. And he says, well, you better say Stanley's a genius, too. Wow. So that was my contact with ours.

Both of those guys were truly geniuses. They were great geniuses. And, God, I have a feeling there's not too many places in the universe that create geniuses that are caught free in the world like we are. In moments like this, I just often remember a specific interview that Dr. John Mack did with one of the kids from the aerial school. And he asks her why she thought the visitors were there. And she goes, in space, there is no love, but down here there is. And I remember so viscerally watching that for the first time and that resonating on such a deep soul level.

that and of course you can make the case that is wishful faking of course i want to feel special as a human and i want to feel like we have something here that doesn't exist elsewhere in the universe but there is something so profound that anybody that has experienced like a love and and a sense of yeah it's anyone that that just experienced love you can really feel the transcendence of that i mean the most popular filmed for the past decade was about like transcendence of love interstellar so like the whole thing was about was about that so and and you could see how like it's almost like uh right now is the 10th it's the 10th year anniversary and the people are talking back about the film because we're watching for the first time big fans are watching again and and it and the conversions of even

that i was talking to just about a couple days ago it feels so every just everything feels like it's making sense for the moment that we're living right now. On like in the way Pilar, and the drone's popping up, on people thinking more about space with SpaceX landing, you know, a tower coming from space back onto Earth. I really do think that we have something so profoundier that we have to preserve, that we have to gather around to like, as you said, really understand what is it that makes us who we are,

what it makes it, what is it that makes us, makes them who they are? and so that they are here based on our terms. We know that we're not, they're not going to be the overlords that we have to like. That's exactly what we have to. Submit our entire sovereignty to just because they're a higher form of intelligence. 2025 is about figuring out how to live together. And that does not mean we are going to have to accept overlords.

If that's all we can manage, they don't want to be here. Maybe our current reality is more governed by any, entities than we realize. Like, where do thoughts even come from? And so I do, I think there's kind of this perspective of like, you know, one of my favorite quotes is this Eden Phil Potts. The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. Wow. That's a wonderful quote. It's a wonderful quote. And there's maybe some strata of beings that are waiting for us to ascend to their level to truly, you know, communicate at parity with

them. And then there may be some other beings that if you're not aware of them, probably have more insidious control of your life right now. Yeah. And so like it brings up all these sort of kind of epistemic ontological questions. When you're daydreaming, why are you thinking what you're thinking? You're not consciously constructing those thoughts. They're sort of entering your mind as if it's this antenna receptacle. And so then then you have to ask what's on the, you know, sending end of that and you know well on that point i feel like we jumped straight into the communication with then a chai but we're not we we didn't talk about the implant and the fact that there's something in your body that you uh believe is an implant i feel right here if you yeah can least you had that

you can't i don't think you touch it if you want to i feel like two years i can give you a CT scan i would it is it okay oh it's fine it doesn't matter it might be a little hot because it's been working right here. Two, three years ago, if you had told someone that there's a... Go ahead and touch it. Don't be scared. Here, here. It's right under my finger. Oh my God.

Yeah. Can you touch it? I'll come touch you, but I want to finish this point because I feel like that's also the normal tissue. Yeah. No, I mean, there's the CT scan, a video of, there's a video of the surgeon trying to

remove it and the thing fucking moving at its own, like, it's It's going down into my earlobe. Yeah. And it just like goes down. And I remember watching that. It's actually moving now. It went under.

I guess because I could see it just brightest day. And now it's, I don't see it. Am I going to have weird effects now that I... No, not at all. Listen, it's been in this whole... It's part of this conversation. You know, it's been... It's been...

It's gotten hot and cold, hot and cold all through the conversations. Really? Yeah. So you think it's how you communicate with the beans? No, no. It's... It's... I work with it.

In other words, I can interrogate the implant while I'm talking. But you've had, it was humans gave you the implant. And suits and men in black style? This is something we haven't touched on yet is the human level of this. And I can tell you a lot about the implant

and a, and what it does, because I've learned about this from, I was taught this. by a couple of people who came in to the house. But let me just back up to the time it was put in. Somewhere in one of my books, it says it was 1992 that was put in.

That's a copy editing era. It was May of 1989. And I was in bed in the cabin, and Anne was asleep at about 11 o'clock at night. I was still reading it, just about to go to sleep. The cabin looks out on the, swimming pool in the back. I had so much money then. I really wish I hadn't been destroyed. What happened? Did you see beyond the MGM thing? The part of episode three, it goes into

South Park, slam-ooning me and all the beating up I took it. Eventually people, people will buy a book from somebody who's controversial, but they're not going to, it's easier now, but in those days, when you had to go into a bookstore to buy a book, you're not going to buy a book by somebody who's a laughing stock and being laughed at. And it torpedoed my career, wiped me out, and I went on this long, agonizing decline that ended with the loss of the cabin and eventual bankruptcy, and it was just a disaster. So I'm sort of knocking along right now.

I don't have much money, but, you know, I don't need much money. I can't, I don't trust the publishing industry not to get into bed with the defense department. And I'm well aware of the fact that there are people in the defense department who do not like me and do not want my work out there. Why don't they like you? Ask them. Ask the Collins elite why they're scared of it. They really don't like you. The Collins elite.

They do not. They think I'm in league with demons because they are simple people who are way behind them. They're behind the eight balls. and behind the times. I want to get back to your implant, but really quick, with the cons elite, this is this evangelical Christian group

that is cited by Lou Elizondo and other kind of disclosure advocates as being anti-disclosure because they think this is all demonic, and so it can't be scientifically studied. We shouldn't even look at it. And a lot of them were actually looking at the phenomena at the, I think,

is a part of this program called Stack 5 at Wright Airfield. And then they came out of that study with the conclusion this is written about by Nick Redfern in his book Final Events that this is all demonic we shouldn't look at it we should look away but I I've never heard the Collins elite well characterized by anybody like who are they are they they're still operational and like what do they what do they want to do I well they they were early in the CIA right they were sort of no it was Air Force Air Force I know yeah okay and I don't want to go down that

path because if you look at Beyond in episode three and you see what happened to me and what it did to my life and it's got something to do with them, I'm convinced. And because there's a lot, the intelligence community does way more social engineering in this country than it should or should even be legally allowed to do. The CIA stays out of that because it's not allowed to propagandize the American people, but I think there's lots of workarounds with other alphabet agencies. Yeah, Air Force Office Special Investigations. Right.

And the connection between some important aspects of the old media and those organizations is very profound. Absolutely. Very dangerous. So it's 1989. Okay. Yeah, let's get back to the fun stuff. I don't like to talk about that. There's not all I can do about it.

And I have been beaten to death by them. Maybe I'll just finish the point when you were touching the implant. Now people can accept that story given, you know, Luzon Lozando's testimony and him even bringing it on on News Nation and talking about it. But I feel like, yeah, probably the time you were telling people that you have an implant, people probably thought you were just nuts. Because like what do you mean? Well, not really because actually. I guess you had a video, yeah. Well, no.

Anybody can, if they were in this room, could feel your ear. I don't know what that is, man. I mean, that is like not. You can look at the video and it's in a number of documentaries and somewhere on my website too. My website's too big and I can't honestly say wear very easily. But you see the doctor try to remove it. You see, says my wife sees it.

She's right there. She says it's a white disc. It's like a little tiny white disc. And the doctor, it was such a cute, sweet guy. But he didn't know anything about any of the implants. And I, and it said to me from the beginning,

you're not getting it removed. You're not getting it removed. Then it's 1994 or six, I believe it was that we lost the cabin. We're living in a little condo in San Antonio. And we meet this guy. and we talk and, you know, he's interested in community and stuff. And I decide I'm going to see if I can get around Ann and see, because I'm very curious about it.

I'd love to see this implant. It's not really working at that time. It's not essential to me at all. So I say to him, by the way, I've got this little cyst and she bristles on my ear. Would you feel that? He feels like, yeah, it's just a little cyst. You want me to pull it off? it off. I said, yeah, I would.

I said, sure, come over to my office tomorrow morning, Saturday morning at 10, and I'll do it. At home, and says, you know, I'm sick and tired. You, you, this is your chance. We're going to have a big fight unless you promise me

absolutely on your honor, never to try again. I say, okay, I figured I've got her. I'm going to get the implant out. Take it to L.A. and we're going to study it with Roger Lear and, you know, we finally figure out what this thing is. So we go into the doctor's office and he's got his nurse there and he opens up the slit and he

Ann's there and we're videotaping it. And she says it's a white disc and the doctor touches it with a scalpel or something, a probe of some kind. And it goes down into my earlobe. At that point, and if you look carefully at the video, you can see you get sort of still. And it's real fact, he's realizing he said later that I realized I was trying to take out an alien implant. And he says, well, I'd have to take your whole ear off. I'm going to pull out. It was been two days past and the ear burns like hell. I think my ears caught on fire. And it goes up back under the skin to this place. Do you have any sense of what it's made out of? They got a sliver at the doctor's office.

He set it to the lab under ordinary circumstances. I receive a telephone call from Dr. William Mallow, the head of materials science at Southwest Research in San Antonio, which was founded by a family friend. Is that Texas A&M or now? No, it's not. in him. No, this is different. Okay, okay. This is a private foundation founded by Tom Slick, San Antonio plan, back in the 50s, and Bill is his head of material science and has been since the beginning of the foundation at that point. And somehow or another, it went to a lab, to a regular ordinary lab, the doctor just sent it to a lab. But I don't get, he doesn't get a report

from the lab. I get a call from Bill Mallow about it. So, that's gone from the lab to Southwest research, which is 50% or 45% funded by the CIA. Bill says, I've got your piece of your sliver of the implant. And he says, it is a metal, metallic base with febrile motion moving, cilia coming off of it. And then the doctor calls me all excited because the lab tech has seen it and told him the same thing. And I guess the lab tech sent it to Southwest for that reason, because it was so unusual.

A lot of these things are reported as moving under their own metabolism or containing some sort of cilia. Oh, listen, I studied a lot of them with Bill. I mean, Bill and I became close friends. And we studied lots of the ones that Roger Lear was producing from here in LA from the surgeries he did, and we found one that was remarkable. But it was in situ in the person's neck. It was emitting a radio signal, and I'll get to the radio signal in this in a minute.

Do you think that? So yours... It does. I can tell you about it. Can he measure the radio signal? Because I just interviewed Bob McGuire, his girlfriend, has an implant, and he put like an RF detector overhead and could measure the frequency coming out. And so do you do you...

Do things like that? Let's not forget what I was just going to say. Yeah. But yeah, here's what happened. At one point, it used to, in the old days, when it turned on, my ear would turn bright red. It was very noise. I'm going to hear a noise in my head. It was trying to reach, to communicate with me and failing.

And that's why it was like that. But I didn't know that at the time. So I'm in Bill's office. we're talking about it and suddenly he says your ears turning bright red. I said, I hear it, Bill, it's on. He said, let's go. We run across the campus to a signals acquisition lab. We get in the lab.

I sit on a stool in the middle and there got all this stuff going on. And after about 10 minutes, it's cold now and it turns off. And the lab guys say we've got a signal. But we can't tell you anything about it. because the lab's classified. So I think, shit. I, you know, I say to Bill, I want to know the signal. He said, well, we'll send you some information.

Of course, they never do. Then the piece of the implant disappears from his office or is sent off to some other lab. I mean, I don't. They were about 60%. They were not totally reliable. Let me put it that way. For me, they were not telling me everything by any. means. 20 plus years pass. I'm doing a book signing in San Antonio. All of a sudden, two guys walk

up. They say, we want you to know, Whitley. One of them says, I was one of the technicians who was, who acquired the signal. And it is the strangest signal we've ever acquired and it's still under study. And they turn around and walk out gone. I never see them again. I have tried every kind of RF meter there is. to get that, pick up that signal. I've had ham operators and all kinds of people try to, we can't pick up a signal. You know what you should do? Use a quantum infarometer.

I wonder if that's what they used at that lab. I don't know what they have in a classified signals acquisition line. Well, the reason I say that is, yeah, maybe I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. I don't know, maybe we should change the subject. So in 1989, in 1989, this implant is put in your ear. Okay, here's what happens. I'm lying in bed.

I'm reading. The windows are open. It's a May night. It's a very pleasant night, so there's no air conditioning on. The windows are open. And it's just gone to sleep. And suddenly I hear the crunching of gravel

in the driveway, okay? I do not see any lights. There's a big gate. The place is pretty secure. It's a shale driveway. so crunching grab tie that means tires and nothing else i think oh my god i have a shotgun under the bed and a pistol in the side table i'm from texas and i'm going to be gunned up at all times i mean just face it uh so uh i start to go for the i have a bank of switches on the on the bedside that i can turn them all

on at once and completely flood the whole area with floodlights they're still on the cabin by the way that's all still there. All I don't own the cabins, it's owned by a wonderful family, thank God, and they'll let me come up. So, and bring friends occasionally. Anyway, I go for the switches, but as I'm turning, I see a woman standing near the foot of the bed. She's already in the room and a man beside her, and I hear a voice in the backyard, male voice go condition red, and then they run forward. And instead of going for the lights, I don't care about the lights anymore, I'm going for the shotgun.

the next thing I know, I'm flying on my right side in the bed. I cannot see. I cannot move. And powerful hand is pushing my head down into the pillow in kind of wave motion. And the woman's voice is speaking very gently and softly. Like, you know, it's okay. It's okay. Just relax and, you know, et cetera and so forth.

A moment after this happens, the pressure is off, I start to turn, get out of the bed. As I do that, there's a big flash of light crashing in the woods, and I end up sitting on the bedside. There's nobody in the room anymore. The LEDs on the arm system are still armed, red. So I grab the pistol. I go around the whole house, even up in the attic, in the basement, everything. where looking for a point of entry and there isn't one.

I ended up sitting on the bedside, what the shit. And I knew all about lucid dreams, and I could hardly believe that was a lucid dream. It was too lucid. So finally I sort of lie in bed all night, kind of like this, you know, waiting for the dawn. And I tell Anne the story, and I said,

I just don't know what to make of it because there's no evidence whatsoever of this. Then I go out to get the paper, which entails going out, opening the door into the garage, turning off the alarm system, which is still on, and getting in the car, opening the garage door and driving down about a mile away to get the paper. I love the paper. I still read actual physical papers, in fact, the Times and the New York Times. And when I open the door into the garage, the garage door is wide open.

but it's alarmed. It's part of the system. And the switch is obviously completely tripped. And the LEDs are right there, bright red. And so I disarm it. And I keep going. I get into the car. And I'm starting to go down anyway to get them. Sort of on semi-automatic pilot. I'm just getting out of bed and I haven't slept. The car is full of static. It's like, you know, shocking my hands when I try to, as a steering wheel. I think, holy God, the car is a kind of blow up. I jump out of the car. And I go in, I said, and there's something's going on. It was real. Someone came into the house and they didn't trip the alarm system. And she says, well, I'd explain about the garage. She said, well, call the guy. I forgot his name, the alarm guy. So I call him. He comes over. And he says there was a very strong magnetic field there. And it's not my equipment. all I can do is, the field was still there. He measured, I saw him measuring it with a gouse meter.

Gouss meter would go, all, just the needle would disappear. He said, all I can do is replace my switches, which he did. And we tried to get some information off of the alarm system's records, but they were all garbled. So, a couple days later, it hurts, starts to hurt, and I realize I have this implant. Anne's fascinated. And she says, listen, let's see what it's there for. I said, I want to get it taken out.

I'm going out to L.A. to Roger. She says, forget it. You're not getting it taken out. I want to find out what it is, what it does. I said, well, it's tracking me. She says, nobody cares that you go down to the, get the newspaper. Nobody cares about anything you do. You're uninteresting.

I said, well, yeah, true. I mean, I don't, I mean, I'm not a criminal or anything. So I leave it in. and it turns on every once in a while. I was with a... Why do you think it turns on? Is it trying to communicate? Oh, at the time I didn't know.

There was no connection. What do you think now? Now it turns on at the 3 a.m. meeting and I go into this semi-meditative state. And I, um, and it, I can feel it turns on. And I interrogated. I say I'm writing on this. I'm working on that. It doesn't answer me in words, but it answers me in all kinds of different ways,

including synchronicities, where I will ask it for something. You know, when it first started. Sounds kind of awesome. Oh, it's fabulous. I would, I have to tell you. You're just like an upgraded human. Exactly. That my wife was a very wise woman.

and I thank God she did not let me get that taken out. It's the best thing I have in my life right now. But anyway. Do you have any speculation on who the two people were that? Let me finish. And I don't know who they were, but I do know some other people that are involved with this implant. This is a very surprising and fascinating story.

I have obviously got people in my life who are on the inside. And I'm going to respect their privacy. I don't agree with their secrecy, but I respect their privacy. And you think they take a special interest in you? They do, definitely, absolutely. They have for a lot of them have known for a long time. I'm getting back to all the way back to Dr. Webb. They knew what was going on.

They know some of them still do anyway. I think Sarbacher had interest in what you went. Was it? Was it? In Sarbacher, I mean, it goes so deep. Is that organic? Or was that, did you have an interest specifically? Oh, specifically, that's why you asked Sarbacher wanted me to write it all out.

Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. Something. Fascinating. So, yeah. So anyway, this gentleman, it's a wonderful gentleman. You both know his name, and I'm not going to say it because he also has a horrible temper. And now you know exactly.

You're thinking, you know who it is. And if you say his name, I'm going to deny it plausible deniability. Okay, anyway. I can look at your facial gestures. Anyway, he wants me to get a CT scan of the implant. And I'm eager to do this, of course. I said, well, how am I going to do it? He says, I say, because I can't go to my doctor and say, I want a CT scan of my ear for no apparent reason.

And he says, well, I'll call him. So I call the doctor, he says, and then he calls him, makes me, he says, and then he calls him. make an appointment with him. I make an appointment with him. And he's all excited. He says, it's all set up. You just have to go over the, go to the get, and they'll do a CT scan of your ear. And I go over to the power medical lab, wherever it was. And they're very confused. A CT scan of your ear. And then there's a person who comes there who they don't know, who wants to be there. And there's a little confusion. and that's resolved finally. And so they do it.

And I get it back and it's wonderful. I've got images of it. It's a wonderfully clear, perfect scan. And you see the thing clearly. However, two days before this, after I have agreed to do it, someone somewhere got the idea, apparently, that I might get it, agreed to have it taken out because I'm sure that's where from the CT scan, the next step was going to be, well, we've got a CT scan.

We want to look at it. Now, there is a certain knock on my door, which I am not going to duplicate. It's immediately recognizable and it's unusual. I know this knock, and it's come to me a few times, both here in California and other places. I know that when that happens, I'm going to open the door, and I'm going to have a conversation with human beings with some people. It happens. I open the door.

Two men are there, one of whom I have met a number of times, one of whom I did not know, who I suppose I always, there's always a second one there, and I always think to myself, he needs a guard for some reason. Is it because he's being watched or because they're scared? I'll go crazy or what is it? But anyway, they come in. He proceeds to explain to me how. how the implant moves.

Very nice, man. He explains that it can pick up and need an information and find it and draw me to it. I said, it's like synchronicity. He says it's not a synchronicity. It's actually guiding you to where you need to go to get the information. And it's wonderful in that respect. All I have to do is think of something I need. What information?

Just anything. Anything I need. Anything you want. Anything I need. When you read the new book, you're going to see a lot of stuff about genetics and stuff in it that I have no idea about before I started writing the book, but it's all there now. Do you think the two people who implanted it were human or non-human? They looked like people. That's all I know.

I cannot tell you anything else about them. I don't know. Clearly, there was no. There was no surgery. It was just like a. No, it went through avi. There was no surgery there. It just went through the surgery.

skip. So if they were people, they were, and this business with this super high intensity, free floating magnetic field, we can't do that. We can now, but we couldn't thin. You know, I wonder if these are the agents that Tim Taylor was talking about in that in his high, right, beings. Or if you talk to like people like Richard Dolan, you know, he'll say like the men in black phenomena is actually very real. And that's like counterintelligence for the NHI, for the aliens or something. There's some kind of, there's some kind of bleeding off there between the presence and us.

And it's got something to do with the DOD, I'm sure. I'm sure it does. But let's go back now to the incident to the two men coming into the apartment. This was just a few years ago. So they explained to me, the man explains to me, that part of, of it and a few other things about how it works. And then he says it was invented by a man named Constantine Raudive, and they leave. And of course, I immediately Google the name.

And I realize, as I'm Googling the name, it's not Raudive. He mispronounced it. It's Rortave. Constantine Rortovay was an expert in electronic voice phenomena, an electronic voice communication with the dead. No way. With the dead. With the dead.

So like it's a technological version of mediumship or something. Exactly. It's technological mediumship. And he said that he designed it. Am I wearing something that was designed by someone who was dead and on the other side when he designed it? Or did he design it before he died? I don't know. When did he live?

He died in the 70s, I think. but there's lots of on the internet about it. I mean, but I just are R-A-U-D-I-V-E. Have you tried to match up his patents or pictures from his work to end as it looks similar? No, I didn't, I couldn't find anything. You didn't find anything.

No. But I did find this out. But that's fascinating that you describe your, you know, this heating up at night at this specific hour that's known historically to be when you commune. Yeah. And it's communion for you.

You're seeing that there's a, there's a, There's a structure here. It's not random. Also, the other thing the implant does is it opens up a slit in this eye. Really, it's more in this eye now. But it opens up a slit and you can see words racing through the slit too fast for you to read, except occasionally. And they all seem to be kind of nonsense words. I mean, they're words. They're English words for the most part, but they're not relevant to anything. And I asked him about that. And he said the man, he's said that's drawing up material from your unconscious that's relevant to what you're doing, what you're working on. And this is why when I'm writing, I can remember incredible detail about all kinds of stuff. And you've written 40 books? Yeah, but this is, this is recent. This is after 2015. I'm only written about six books since then. So the thing came on starting 2015. In 20, no, it came on in 1989 and it started working in 2015. Oh, it started activating in 2015.

But there's, let's keep going here. Well, how does this guy know this about how it works, though? How does the guy who knocks on your door come in? Because he is obviously part of the same world we're sort of talking about that I think Richard Dolan, who is a lovely, brilliant guy, has got something. I think there is a breakaway civilization and we're talking about it right now. Interesting. So break away human civilization that is systematically in touch.

They sure look human to me. It's fascinating. Now, then what happens is I start telling my friends this story, and I'm talking about it. I tell one friend, and he's asked me not to use his name. I've specifically asked him if I could, who says, well, yeah, oddly enough, I've had a slit like that in my eye for years. I've often wondered, and the words go through it, and you can't quite read them. I said, you know, I know what that is now, and I explain it to him. I said, and he says, well, that's extraordinary because, you know, I, he's written some books also.

But here's the weirdest thing. He's one of the world's leading experts on Constantine Rodervey. No way. What? Yes. What are the chances? No, there's not chances. It's an experiment.

It was been in him for longer than mine has been in me. Yeah. Where's Rodevei? Where is he from? He was from Romania or Lithuania or somewhere like that. I don't recall offhand, but there's a lot. And this. Did this guy live in your vicinity at all?

Or is there, you know, any through line between you and him as to like why he received this as well outside of, I guess, being connected? Well, there might be some kind of a through line. I can't see it. He lives up in Marin County. Why do you think yours activated in 2015? Why the delay? I'll tell you why. I can tell you precisely. And this is just stunning, but it's all part of this. And I'm, you know, we're dealing here with something that causes onological shock. Okay. So let's just suck it up. after Annie passed away, it began, is when it began to work. And I began to notice the slit. And I was walking across the street one day.

And in bright sunlight, the slit's very obvious. You can see it. And I think to myself, who are you? And the word slow down. And it says very clearly coming across, it's me, Ann. Whoa. Wow. So your wife, when she passed on, you think,

she activated this. She activated it. And I think that woman may be knew all along. I do not. Anne is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. She is? She is. So yeah, let's go into that.

You know, can I just say something on since Anne came up? Like, I remember the first thing I ever watched on you and communion, I remember, like, after, I prayed for her because I just, I could feel how incredible of a soul she was. And I prayed that, I promised you this happened. I prayed that one day I find love like Whitley's. Oh, man. You know, when one of the visitors, when I was in the abduction experience, said to me, you're the luckiest of the lucky.

I thought, what, crap. And then later I thought, well, I'm, you know, I've written communion and now I'm a big name. But that wasn't it. It was her. It was finding Anne. And I'll tell you how I found Anne. How did you find her?

Well, I was living in London. and I like England, I spent a lot of time there. I came back to the States. Daddy got mad at me because I was supposed to go to the London School because I was instead matriculated at the London Film School. And a year later, he found this out, figured this out, and got all pissed off and made me come home. And so I'm back in the States and I'm in New York.

And I'm trying to, I want girls. I mean, I'm, you know, 23 or something. I want a girlfriend. I had girls in London. Now I don't have any girls. So I go to singles bars. And I've gotten a job. Dad said, well, you're on your own now.

You've got to find your work. Do your thing. And don't come back to San Antonio. Do your thing. And so I got a job as a media planner in an advertising, Benton Bowles advertising. And I'm looking for girls. I'm going to singles bars and stuff.

And all the guys in the singles bars are airline pilots, lawyers, doctors. They're all media planners probably too. It's the lowest of the low in the advertising business, at least it was in those days. So I come from a father who's never lie. Never lie. It's basic. It's in my blood. So I'm not going to say I'm a doctor or a lawyer.

I said, I'm a media planner. I was getting nowhere because I'm not the prettiest. thing that ever walked yours. Come on Whitley. And no, no. I mean, you know, don't sell yourself, sure. You've been to, you guys have been, you might be better in signals bars than I did.

I did not do what. So I see in the village voices. Now Amar and I just bring up aliens. Yeah. Right. Right. That's exactly what we do. He goes, you know how we met?

It's actually alien. Yeah. Sorry. So you're at to sit, you're going to the single bars in New York. I give up on that because I'm wasting my money clearly. And I see this thing in the village voice for something called mind mates. And I think, great, my main problem has always been I want really smart girls because

I want a girl. I want someone who's really, really, really smart, preferably smarter than me. I figure, I'll try this. So I try my inmates. They send this packet with, I spend like two or three hours writing essays and filling out for it. It's a very serious deal. I mean, they're really into this. And then my stuff in a couple of weeks later, a list comes back and it's got like five names on it.

All of the names are the last names of fish are close to it. like salmon Salomon and there's a trout and all is what the hell is this and there's one name on it

Maddox which is not a fish and I think is it the fish are all fake and I actually was only sent one name when I was supposed to be sent five so I call one of the fish and she's real she is a fish I mean she is trout or whatever it was

so I can't just hang up on her so we have a date doesn't work. I figure no more fish, I'm going to call the one that's not a fish. So I call Maddox. She's the receptionist or she says she works at a certain place and as an avenue, not fair from where I was advertising. So I go there and this receptionist is sitting there with excellent various things about her.

She looks up at me with these big brown eyes. and I think, oh God, if only Anne Maddox looks like this girl. And I say, I'm here to meet Anne Maddox. She says, I'm Ann. We were not part again for more than two weeks for the next 45 years. Wow. My best friend who I talked about earlier, the first thing I did was take her down to Washington to meet him and his wife.

and he says to me, Witt, don't let this one go. And Ann always said, I got the infirmata. When he said that, when I told her he had said it. And I said, when I heard that, I knew I was in. And I said, you were in before that, baby. I was no way I was ever going to let you go. She became my wife. And Anne went back to school and got a degree in English literature to be my editor.

and, you know, I wrote seven novels before I published The Wolfen, and I got close with some of them. One of them was so annoying that this agent calls me and says, I'd like you to come over, I'd like to talk about your book. And I thought, I said to Ann, it's a big agent, Candida and Nadia or some, Jeff Brown, I think his name was, he was a big agent. So I'm very excited. I think finally I've got an agent. He go over to his office, sits down across from me at his desk, and he says, I just want to tell you, that book was the most annoying thing I've ever read in my life. It was called The Searchlight Horror, and it's about this town where nobody can leave,

and everybody gets killed in these bizarre accidents, and every time you get into a character, they get killed, and that's what made the book so annoying. Anne read it and she said, yeah, Whitley, he's right. This is infuriating. In fact, I'm not going to finish it because I'm going to beat you up if I finish it. Wow. But you're almost implying, before getting into describing her, that there's something very special about Anne as far as her role in your life above and beyond a romantic one.

Listen, weird stuff started to happen as soon as we were together. Like what? Well, I'm not sure this was the first thing that happened. And here, I'll give you a couple of examples. There was a, we lived on West 55th Street in Manhattan, between 8th and 9th. You cross 8th and then you get to 7th Avenue and there's a little distance between 7th Avenue and Broadway. And in that little area, there was a place we laughingly would call the horror store. It was a little storefront.

It's probably not there anymore. and you would see every once in a while an attractive-looking young woman sitting in the storefront in a skimpy dress with her legs crossed and a green curtain behind her. And we would pass it back and forth because we haunted the bookstores that were then lined to Madison Avenue.

And we would laugh and say, the horse store is open tonight. One night we're going home and the chair is on its side, the curtains flying back and forth in there, and there's a guy in a brown suit trying to get out, and he's being pulled back by these blue dwarfs. And we watch this for a second. What the hell?

And I say to Ann, we've got to call the police. And, you know, there's no cell phones. So we're not far from home. So we run home. We're going to call the police. And she says, what do we tell them? and I think to myself, we're going to tell them that there's this place where these blue dwarfs are trying to kidnap some guy and drag him behind a curtain. That is not going to work.

I mean, this is New York City. I thought to myself, the police will come here. They're not going there. So we don't call the police. We also didn't go by the horse door at night again. That's one of the many things that happened. Many, some of them were hilarious. It's almost like your local shared reality with Anne was sort of divergent from the consensus reality that we all live in.

Precisely. Precisely. That's fascinating. Because, you know, later these blue figures, which played a, I didn't remember at the time, they played a role in my childhood. They've played a role in the whole experience in my life. I'll tell you something else about. Lori Barnes was our secretary, Anne was reading, she was getting heaps and heaps of letters. And I was saying, you know, we can't throw them out because they're very private, many of them. They got people's names and addresses.

What are we going to do? Yeah, and just for context, after community came out, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people were sending letters to Willie's home because he left his address being like expecting, you know, maybe 10, 20 people to send and ends up shutting down the whole, the post office in his town. The abduction researcher, the pioneering abduction researcher, Bud Hopkins, who I pissed off, unfortunately, But, you know, that's story of my life. A good man was the one who said I should do that.

And it was very important, very important. So I want to just honor Bud for that. Anyway, we got these heaps of letters coming in. And I said, I can't, what are we going to do? I mean, they're literally pouring them onto the living room floor in heaps. And she said, I said, I can't read these. She said, well, I can read them. And she gets her letter home and she starts, she was a speed reader.

She could sit down and she could literally read a big complex novel in two hours easily. She was really smart. She was smarter than me. And that's exactly what I was looking for. As I wanted to marry a genius and I did. So anyway, she's reading these letters. She hires a secretary and this will come back into it in a second. I'm going to get him back to the blue guys at Ori Burns.

and they're working on the letters, and they're all four or five thousand of them. We're now at Rice University in an archive called The Archives of the Impossible, founded by Jeff Kreppel. And so they're beautifully, beautifully curated now. So it's wonderful that they're there. So she comes out of her office one day. He says, Whitley, this has something to do with what we call death. and the letters again and again

will mention the dead in connection with the visitors. And when we would have, she would choose people to come up to the cabin. Don't worry. I haven't forgotten the blue guys yet. And she would say, this letter, this person, we're going to have them up to the cabin. And when she would get these groups up at the cabin,

the visitors would show up. Wow. She knew who to get. Sounds like analyst. And did this. Anne named the book Communion. Wow. And Anne said things. Like I asked Anne, what is enlightened? She says, enlightenment is what happens when there's nothing left of you but love. Kind of the opposite of today's day. Well, nowadays, we think of it very intellectually. Yes. You know, it's informational. That's so wild. The, like one of my favorite quotes that drive this quest is the highest form of knowledge.

which is empathy. Segways back to the telepaths. You're not going to the hill unless you are kind and you do not lie. Those are essential criteria. So she hires the secretary, Lori Barnes, and they're working on the letters. Here is Lori's story. And now we're getting back to the blue guys in this long, complicated segue. Anyway, Laurie's story is this is back in the 50s, 54, I think it was.

She's lying in bed at night alone. Her husband's a, they were, they were show people and he was on a gig. And she notices movement out of the corner of her eye. She's reading. It's about 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock at night. She's waiting for her husband to come home. She's pregnant. And she looks up.

and there standing beside the bed is this horrible-looking blue dwarf, and behind it are the line of others just like it. And of course she recoils. And it says to her, do not be afraid. We're not here for you. We're interested in the girl child you're carrying. And of course, she's not not. made any more calm by that. And of course, it's the 50s. So we don't know what's a boy or girl.

It turned out to be a girl. She, I know her. We've talked. She's a very nice person. She has a lovely career. There's nothing about her. It would say she's in any way an unusual human being except she's a very good, sweet person and it does a lot of good in the world. Okay, so this happens. and she recoils from the creature at that point. And it says to her, why do you fear us so? And she says, you're so ugly. And it says something now that gets to way deep into the heart of this whole thing. It says, one day, my dear, you will look just like us.

Oof. Lorry has passed on. I have wondered if the little blue guy is going to show up in my life. But so far I haven't heard any sense of her presence at all. I do get the presence of a lot of dead people, but I haven't heard from Lorry. What were John Mack, Stanton Friedman, these sort of legendary figures in the UFO world? What were they like? Because you knew both personally. Yeah.

Well, Stanton was... Stanton died basically running through an airport. I mean, Stanton was the most driven human being I've ever known. He would go anywhere. He would do anything. He would not stop. And he was very coy about whether or not he had been activated. But I activated, I mean, you see a UFO up close or you have a close encounter experience.

You're activated. Most people who that happens to, a lot of people don't remember it. A lot of people can blow it off, but there are certain people who just will not stop. They will not stop. And so the UFO almost installs in them some sort of drive or mission to disclosure or like an insatiable curiosity. It installs within them a burning question. And they can't let that go. It's a wonderful.

A lot of the people in this field are much more wonderful than the outside world realizes that you get a room full of close and counter witnesses together. They're all incredibly sweet and mild. You think to yourself, well, agrees they're little and they're fragile. Of course they abduct people who are mild-mannered. And children. And children, yeah.

I'm very mild. I should not be as mild-mannered as I am, but I am very mild-mannered. Anne was the one with the temper. She could blow up in your face very easily. But Stan Friedman's, to me, always stood out along with John Mack is these guys who are extremely rigorous,

smart and accomplished in their sort of day job roles. You know, Joe Mac was obviously head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department. And then Stanton Friedman was like this Westinghouse nuclear engineer. Right. You know, Lawrence Rockefeller, who was passed on, sadly, and was very interested in this, much the annoyance of other members of his family,

not all but some, invited me and John Mack and Edgar Mitchell and Joe Lulz, who's a UFO investigator from El Paso, to his Medway plantation in South Carolina, to just sit together and have a, you know, with our wives and significant others and just spend a weekend together. And it was wonderful time,

and I got to know John better than than I had before. What was that group like? And what was Lawrence Rock? Rockefeller like and John Macon. Lawrence was a very, he was a good man. He had a good heart. And he was very curious.

And for whatever reason, he knew this was real. Yeah, I find that so fascinating that some of these elite families have such a deep interest. And Lawrence Rockefeller, specifically in the 90s,

was trying to get Hillary interested in this. Right. Yeah, the photo of her holding, Are We Alone by Paul Davies, and it's a gift from Lawrence Rockefeller, who was trying to get her de Moran to disclosure and understand kind of the reality of non-human intelligence. So you got the sense that he knew. Like, it's like he didn't even... He knew something. Lawrence knew something. And Bootsie Galbraith was also a friend of Lawrence's. And, you know, I tried to worm out

of Bootsie of what Lawrence knew and what they knew, but she was quite coy about it. Now, she'd been turned on in an interesting way. She was in Mexico with Stephen Greer, and he called in a UFO, and they all saw it. Didn't the Rockefellers both on John Mack and Stephen Greer as well in the 90s, I believe? Yeah. And they funded the Princeton Parapsychology Lab, which was studying Mind Over Matter. So, okay, so what was John Mack like? Was he?

He was, well, first of all, we were both cut-ups when we were kids and played a lot of practical jokes and made bombs and did all kinds of crazy things you can't do anymore. And so we had a lot to talk about. We had loads of fun talking about our childhoods. And he was a very, very smart man. He was too smart to be deceived by assumptions. That defines his mind better in fewer words than any I can think of. He was too smart to be deceived by assumptions.

I will never forget the day. I got a call, and he is practically in tears. He just had the ambush, and he said, they're going to try at Harvard, yeah. He was invited to a meeting. It was actually an ambush, and they're going to try to take away my license to practice psychiatry, and they're going to try to take away my tenure. And I said, John, what are you going to do? there was a silence on me.

I never would forget. That was hard. It was bloaty, but they did to him. They went after him. Roger Lear had the same thing happen. They went after him to try to get rid of him, they could raise his license practice pediatry.

It's these show trials. And Dr. Diane Powell of the telepathy tapes. I was just going to mention Dr. New John Mack, when they were at Harvard together, they had offices down the hall from one another. Her medical license, revoked for studying these telepathic children. Well, you know, there's two sides here.

The side of Galileo and the side of the Inquisition, and let's face it, it's very obvious that Dr. Powell, Dr. Mac, the others, Dr. Lear, are on the side of Galileo, and these other creeps are on the side of the Inquisition, and they function like inquisitorial. Yeah, I always wonder, it's 100%. Amar and I were at the D.C. hearings a few weeks ago, and this just straight up spook came up to us and in the hotel that we were staying at, yells at us from across the hall. Our friend Chris Ramsey, who's an amazing magician from Canada who's gotten super interested in the UFO thing.

He's actually a world famous magician. Kind of knows when people have tricks up their sleeves because a lot of, you know, the name he's made as a magician is actually debunking other magician's tricks or elucidating them and showing how they work. And so this guy is provoking us, trying to get basically get us to say that we're cynical about disclosure and, like, don't believe in UFOs and aliens by saying, asking these leading questions saying, you know, it's all bullshit, right? You know, you guys just doing for content, right?

You want clicks, you want likes, whatever. And then Chris, after he leaves, is like, that guy had his hand in his right pocket the whole time and was definitely trying to record you. And anyways, going back to this kind of establishment, you know, scapegoater role versus the truth seeker, innocent truth seeker, I think about people on that side, like that guy. Like, what's your psychology? Like, do you have any historical context for what you're doing? Like, if you're just persecuting people earnestly looking into, you know, truth, like, how do you

live with yourself? And do you have zero, like, metaphysical understanding? You don't think any of your earthly actions have any implications for what you do in the future. It's all just you're expediently alying yourself with the establishment force. You just want a promotion? Like, what do you think is going to happen to you? You don't want to do that because you don't want, we have souls and we're anesthetized to our souls for a reason so that we can live free. but, you definitely don't want to live a lie in lies

and you don't want to hurt other people. You have to, like, and another thing, Anne said, it's so powerful. I asked her what compassion was, because I'm really interested in compassion. I want to be a compassionate man. I want to be a good man. And she says to me,

she didn't answer the question directly. she says, each of us is all we have. And that really went through me because, you know, when I'm on the street and I'm, someone's pissing me off. I'm a driver in L.A. and there are, there's the odd three-minute period when I'm not pissed off. And I always think of these words, and I'm face to face with someone I really don't like. and don't want to be with. This person is all they have.

It changes everything. It's incredibly powerful. It makes you into a better person just by knowing those few words and keeping them in your... It's amazing. You know, that's power. That's word power of the first order.

Yeah. And we are all on a journey, and I think it's some... You know, there's evil is typically depicted as being consciously tyrannical evil, you know, sort of like mastermind evil. Often it's just being unconscious. It's just, you know, acting on sort of these primitive instincts that are, is often the

default and emerges if you don't kind of consciously override it or seek virtue. And, yeah, I think we all just need to look at ourselves. She would always engage with homeless people and stuff. Anne? Anne would, yeah, and I would say, you know, how can you know whether or not not, you know, I always would, she said, just don't judge them. You'll feel which ones can use your help and which ones can't. Just don't judge them. Don't go there, Whitley. Don't go to that part of your head. You don't know why they're there out in the street, and you never will. It's not your

business. Speaking of which, given that you wrote a book on Jesus, Jesus has been sort of rewritten by the likes of Thomas Jefferson, Stephen Mitchell, all sorts of writers, yourself now. What do you think most people misunderstand about him? They misunderstand, well, a lot of things, but the most misunderstood thing is, in modern times, is the resurrection. A Jefferson Bible takes it out. It should not be taken out. In Jesus a new vision, I go into exactly why it actually happened, and this gets way

back to the beginning of our conversation when you mentioned that suffering has something to do with these extraordinarily powerful states. It activates something that happened to Jesus. What happened in the tomb was a real thing. And the book lays out exactly what happened because there's been magnificent research done on it that's ignored because it doesn't fit the paradigm. but in fact he did come out of the tomb. Well, the team was empty when Mary came back. Exactly. Yeah. As a light being.

And the shroud, remember he said, if you do not follow me, I will return as a thief in the night. And in Jesus a new vision, I point out the time of that return. It was 1898 when the first photographs was taken of the shroud, that was the moment he returned. and we saw him on the shroud. The shroud is amazing. And I think it was studied by like NASA at some point, right? No, it was studied by a group of Air Force guys. Air Force, yeah.

Yeah. And they claimed to debunk it, but they only took a little piece of it or something. Oh, no, I'll tell you the story. I'm very close to this story. Father Peter Rinaldi was a friend of Anne. She said, you know, if you ever go to New York, when you go to New York, go down to LaGuardia place. between LaGuardia and right off of, right immediately north of Howston Street and, or rather at Bleaker Street, is 520 LaGuardia on one side, and there's this beautiful park on the other side called LaGuardia Park.

If you go, you'll see a statue of LaGuardia in there, and you look down at the bottom of the statue, and there's a plaque, and all these famous social people are on the plaque, and so are the names. names Anne and Whitley Streber. And one day we lived in the building, 520 LaGuardia place. She was looking down there and she said, you know, I'm going to turn that into a park. It was just a place, you know, it was a druggie hangout and stuff. And she said, how can you do that? I visualized her going down there with a shovel. She said, well, I'm going to do it. And she called, got all her friends going and got them networking. And soon they had millions of dollars to build this park and to create the statue and permission from the city.

And there's the plaque. There's the statue. It's a wonderful statue of Ligardi. The park is so verdant and full of birds. And that's Anne. I'll go. I will go there next time. It's like it's a pilgrimage place in my own life.

Next time I'll definitely be too. Yeah. Yeah. I love to meditate in that park now. So what happens to Jesus is this, at least as I understand it. He goes to Egypt. He understands the resurrection technique there. And he sets out to do this.

I re-translated the sayings, Gospel of Thomas. He says, oh, he translates Greek. It's easy Greek. I mean, it's very simple. The Gospel of Thomas is remarkable. It's absolutely extraordinary. But what do you say to the people? because I'll argue all day with like conventional Christians where I'm like, I think that book is really special.

And then they say, oh, it was found, you know, so first of all, it was written 150 years later after his death. And it was found, you know, 1948 in this sort of, you know, pile of the, you know, the Nacomadi or whatever. The saying's gospel of Thomas, according to the Q scholars, is the oldest gospel. And they're probably right. Okay. So it's the oldest gospel. Right. It was the beginning of the story.

Let's go to the threat of you saying that Jesus went to, you know, Egypt. He learned this technique in Egypt. The technique is sort of the mystery ritual, resurrection. Total ego death. And we're going to get back to the part about the discovery of the shroud and the work that was done in a minute. I don't want to forget that. And then we could quit. He then, in effect, becomes a magician at a time where in the Roman Empire, the Cornelian laws are in effect, and they will kill you in all kinds of very, very depressing ways if they catch you being a magician. So he's very careful. That's why he tells people, don't tell anyone that I'm doing

this. He understands something about the mind. And my new book is all about this. It's about recovering this power. Yeah. Because we can all do this. I believe that. And this is where I differ from the conventional Christians. Jesus is in all of us. that power is in all of us he wasn't here to put himself on a peasant pedestal he was here to say i am the son of man i am a human being well in the in the gospel of thomas doesn't he take thomas who's typically depicted as you know this judas judas says this like betrayer uh he's he takes thomas aside and he whispers secret words to him yes and so what are those secret words well he doesn't tell but the other disciples ask him, what does he say? And he says, they say, Thomas says,

if I told you, you would stone him to death. In the saying's gospel, he says, don't believe me. I'm not a teacher. He says, go out among the Gentiles and eat the food you're given. Violate the law. To a total revolutionary, what he's saying is, leave your eat. you go behind and be you, your real self. And it doesn't matter. Everything depends on this. Do anything to find yourself. It goes all the way back to the Delphic Oracle, know thyself. And this is also the word, the core word of Jesus, know thyself. And the kingdom of heaven is within you. And all around you. And all around you. But find it. Be as little children. What's the other gospel of Thomas quote?

It's if you look up, the birds will precede you. If you look to the sea, the fish will precede you. The kingdom of heaven is within you. Right. The great poetry of being is there. Yes. It's a poetry of being. It's fascinating.

And I just interviewed Colonel Carl Nell, who he kind of traces back the origins of these sort of esoteric versions of religion that he thinks all kind of bound together in this kind of hermetic lineage. and he talks about the festival of said and the Egyptian magical papyri where you have these sort of secret brotherhoods in Egypt. That's very interesting. I did not know that. I want to talk to Carl about that.

I don't know him well. I sent him an arc of my new book, and that's an advanced reading copy of my new book. I haven't heard back yet from anyone. I sent all my friends that arc. I even sent it to Robert Bigelow, who I know, but not well. And I sent it to Jacques Follet

and Leslie Kane, who is a close friend, And of course, Jeff Kriple and Hal put off. It's been a friend since forever. I mean, we've been friends since I was, since I was about, we've been friends for over 30 years. Since how old were you? Well, since the community experience.

Oh, since community. Okay, so, so let's go to the Shrout of Turen. Because I have a friend named Randall Carlson, works a lot with Graham Hancock, incredibly smart, just super rigorous. I would not do justice to his work on this topic, but he has all sorts of of first principles arguments as to why the Shrout of Turin is absolutely real. It is, he's probably right. Okay, here's what happened.

Father Peter Rinaldi, who Anne knew, calls us up one day, calls her up one day and says, I want you to come to a meeting. We're having a meeting about the Shrout of Turin. Would you be interested? And she, of course, says, yes, we'll come. And I said, what is the Shrout of Turin? She said, well, let's go to the meeting. We'll find out.

we go to the meeting and it's with Jackson and Jumper, the two guys who are, they're fundraising for the initial studies. And I never meet them. I mean, I talk, you know, in a fundraiser context, but I never, like, become friends or anything with them. So we contributed as much money as we could afford to it, a few thousand dollars. And we follow it. And they do their stuff. and it's all in the papers.

And then I hear that material has been taken from the shroud and it's going to be sent to Oxford. And I write Father Rinaldi a letter, do not do this. They have to defend their paradigm. They will lie without knowing it. And they do very, that very thing. They say the shroud is from the middle,

ages, they destroy the research, but it doesn't end because this is humanity. And there are other people in the world who have a better grasp of the truth here. They can feel the energy and other scientists. And now Jesus and New Vision sums up where they are. And where they are is you can't deny it anymore if you're a real scientist. The shroud is the single strangest thing on planet Earth. And it is that way because it records the moment a human being whose body had expired transformed into a being of light. What makes you think it's real?

The weave of the cloth, the pollen's found on it, all place it in exactly that place Yeah. And time, the image itself could not have been produced by almost anything except a sudden burst of neurons. And remember the rending of the curtain in the temple and the earthquake. That was the moment of the resurrection. It's a tremendously powerful event. A burst of neurons? A burst of energy that involves a neutrality.

Neutrons involves an expression of a burst of neutrons. And that's what burned the image into the shroud. And that's the whole thing of like maybe that intense suffering. It cried all the way back to the. And that kind of electromagnetic, the neutron burst. And then you're in there are all these ancient art depictions of like saints and holy figures traveling up in this kind of cobblistic like bubble envelope thing. like this celestial ascends vehicle, Merikaba vehicle or whatever, Wheel of Ezekiel, you know.

The whole theme of this conversation, it goes back to what you just said. We've been talking about the power of suffering in all kinds of different ways over the course of this conversation. And now here we are coming to the end of it. And we're talking about the ultimate moment that the power of human suffering was expressed into the world by Jesus in his resurrection. And this is where we have to go. We have to go back to an understanding of that, which is also an understanding of ourselves, and face the hardest thing of all, which is this place is a miracle. It is a whole, this whole planet is a miracle.

And that's why all of these unmaraculous but fascinated creatures are going around here and why they do not want us to kill ourselves off. on that note I this makes you want to go pray that's definitely what I'm going to go do but like yeah oh we should do a prayer session after yeah for sure I can't think of a better note

to end on Willie we really appreciate your time this was awesome oh thank you I'm so glad it was such a pleasure to be here you guys were really fun to be with thank you someone right back at you man you got a lot to say and I hope the the world understands how profound

your message is your experiences are. They will in time. I probably have become a shade by then, but nevertheless, they will. Well, you look great now, so. I feel great, too. I bike 10 miles this morning. Oh, that's incredible, man.

Yeah, I do it, I do it three times a week or swim or go to the gym. I'm a very active guy physically. Good for you, man. Well, okay. Well, thank you, Wittley. Appreciate it, man. Pleasure. Huge news, everyone.

We've been sitting on a ton of unreasonable. released footage that we will now be releasing weekly in our new WOP. Our first episode is a completely uncut, heated discussion between Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein on remote viewing. Yeah, you heard that right. I still can't believe I experienced that firsthand, and now I'm happy to share it with you all as our first exclusive video on WOPP. Head over to WAPP.com slash American Alchemy Premium to become a premium member today. By becoming a member, you'll gain access to weekly premium videos, behind-the-scenes footage, and monthly group calls where we discuss the ideas we love most. Plus, you'll get early access to merchandise drops and be the first to

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