American court hearing recordings and interviews - Ghislaine Maxwell interview 7/24/2025. Day 1. Part 2. (from www.justice.gov/maxwell-interview)

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

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I'm going to ask everybody to put the name on the record. Good morning. My name is Assistant Special Agent in Charge Spencer Horn of FBI in New York. Today we're doing a proper of Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th, and the time is 10, 12 a.m. This interview is being recorded. And my name is Todd Blanche. I'm the Jeffrey Turner General.

Before we start formally asking questions of Ms. Maxwell, I'm going to put on the record everybody that's in this room in addition to me. Sorry with you, Diego. Diego Pistana, Associate Deputy Attorney General. And then you heard from Special Agent in Charge Horn. Mark Beard from the United States Marshal Services here as well. And then David? Yes, this is David Oscar Marcus, and I'm counsel for Gulen Maxwell.

My name is the Asapian and I'm counsel for Gulen Maxwell. My name is Melissa Magidl and I'm Counsel for Gulen Maxwell. Go ahead. And I'm Gila Maxwell. Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. How are you? Good morning, Mr. Blackwell. Good.

Okay, so before we started recording, we met for a few minutes. I introduced myself and we've chatted and now I told you that we were going on the record. And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given by your lawyer a copy of what's called a proffer agreement. And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what governs our conversation today. The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting. I'm not promising to do anything.

I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that's been assigned to your case to do anything. We're just talking. And so that's the most important part of this agreement. However, almost as important is the fact that what this agreement does for you is it gives you protection. So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you, with some exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute, But whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity. So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in a case in chief if we were ever to bring one.

Okay? Thank you. There's exceptions to that. The most meaningful one of which is that if you say something today that's not true, that's a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you for what's called false statements. So I'm a federal officer. I have several officers here. the FBI is here and if you lie to someone that's like me or like Special Agent Horn, it's a crime. So you have to be truthful. The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily

apply directly to you, but if there ever was a retrial in your case or if there ever was a criminal case, a future criminal case against you and your lawyer or you said something different or took a position that's different than what you say today, we can then cross-examine you or witness based upon what you say today. So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I can't use what you say against you in our case in chief. However, if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a witness to testify and they said something that's totally different than what you say today, we could then cross-examine you or the witness and say, hey, Hey, do you remember when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July of 2025?

She told us and then say what she said. Okay. I am scared. Okay. Other than that, I know you didn't have a lot of time this morning to meet with Mr. Marcus, but did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him? I did. Okay.

All right. So I've already signed it, as has specializing in Horn. And Mr. Marcus signed it as well. So you've got a time. Please sign it right where it says clients. Yep. And I will provide a copy of this to your lawyers so you guys have it. Okay.

Thank you. So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago. Can you see that right blank down there? On the Sony. Yeah, there we see. Okay, we're just confirming that it works and it does. Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago, Mr. Marcus reached out to me and said that you wanted to speak with somebody from the

government about not only your case but about everything that's been in the media and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your case. That is true and I did speak to him and I did ask him if, or did tell him that I very keen to talk to anyone because no one from the government at any time ever since the inception of the case, so dating back to the early two councils, has ever spoken to me and indeed I believe ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me and that includes up to me when I was indicted and prosecuted. I believe that, or I understand, I should say, rather that my attorneys at the time did tell the government that I wanted to speak to them because I was very keen to meet with anyone so that I could tell or have them ask me any question. I've never had any problem to speak to anybody and I offered myself and I kept asking if they would be.

make it because I can't put it in for whatever reason. Okay. Okay. Okay. I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not, if there's a path that, a question that I'm not asking that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers. Just to start a little bit very briefly, can you talk about when you, when you're, you

first met Mr. Epstein, I know that goes back a while, and just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until his death. I met Mr. Epstein in 1991. My, I've never heard of him or met him before, and no one in my family had ever. either. My father never knew him and I'll explain why that is the case. What did you, what did you meet him? I had a girlfriend who, I was, I've moved to America briefly in, well, I've moved to America in 1990. Okay. I, well, moved, it's a good right, I'd come to visit America in 1990. I, I had come to visit America in 1990. I, I had been running my own company up until that time, which was a company called

Maxman Corporate Gifts. And I had also been working for my father at the time. I had multiple jobs with him. I was in 1990. I was working with a new company of his, a newspaper that he was launching called the European. I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with the European and I was traveling at that time from England to America because my father was looking to, well, he'd also bought McMillan the publishing house

and he had purchased the New York Daily News. And it's true to say that my father always wanted me to come back, and then full-time for him. But that's a much longer story I don't think we need to go into it this time. But I was always working with him. There was no escaping, as it were, to work for him. So in 1990, I had come over to New York to help look at some of that. She was having some advertising.

issues with the New York Daily News and in fact I met I may have met Donald Trump at time because my father was friendly with him and liked him very much and I think should be said that he also very much liked Ivana because she was also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from so I don't I don't remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad but I knew that that's how I you about their Mr. Trump. And this was before you met Mr. Epstein? Yes.

So I was already going back and forth in America. And then in April of 1991, I came to New York. But I can't remember for what reason, what business reason, but there was a business reason, something to do with my dad at that time. And a girlfriend of mine who, an American, told me I've broken up with my long, I've been engaged, getting the very long-term boy family broken up. So I've got, you know, as you have your girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet.

And I'm like, who is it? And she goes, he's been dating my sister and he'll love him, he's looking for a wife. I'm edging towards 30. I don't need to tell you guys that's a very important moment for a girl. to think about the portal things. I sure won't be happy beneath him. And so sometime in 1991, we're in 1991, I met him at his offices in on Madison.

And I think the most memorable thing I can think about that is he was wearing a tie, which he didn't often do it. He had a giant, to my, a ketchup, stealing with it. Sounds like, wow, okay. And that was how we met. Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally, or were you there for work-related reasons? I knew nothing about him.

I keep just inviting me to come and have tea. And I was like, tea, that's English, okay. But what was unusual was in his offices. So I went to his offices, and we met. And I found him very engaging. and that was that. So, okay, so that's how you meet him. And again, I don't want to spend a lot of time, you know, on this particular issue,

but what happened with your relationship over the years from the time you meet him in 1991 up until the time he passed away? Just give the highlights. Okay, so I was looking at a real estate for my time. dad to buy some and Epstein told me that he was also looking to move from his apartment and would I help him? And I'm sure I'm looking already so I could look for him. So that's how it started. And then in 1991 my father passed away and I returned to New York after that originally to come back and help with the family businesses, which was a mid-milli. And then the debacle

my father was passing, hit the family, and we lost all our businesses. And my family thought that we'd be best if I stayed in America because of the intensity of the press and the drama surrounding my father's death in England. So I stayed and Epstein said, well, you can keep helping me, you can help me find our house and you can decorate the house. and it gave me something to do. Would you a romantic relationship with her at this point, or just friends? Just friends. And while we're just, with respect to your father,

there have been multiple questions about whether he worked for any intelligence agency. Do you have any knowledge about that? I think most certainly my father had background in intelligence journey because he was I believe he did in the Second World War, he was a British intelligence officer. I think that my sort of belief is that once you've been an intelligence officer, you're kind of always, it doesn't mean that you're formally employed.

So I don't think my dad in any formal sense was employed by any agency, but when you are a very significant businessman and politician as my father was, you meet with people at all the time and you, I guess, trade business or ideas. I think if we fall under that definition, that's how I would think. Now, he certainly, I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing, but if you're asking me if I thought that he did help people, the answer would be, yes, I do. Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years?

I know we're maybe jumping around a little day or night. They never met. As far as you know, they never met. No, I... You know they never met. Well, how do you know they never met? Thank you. Just categorically, no, they never met.

Well, because after, in 1991, before my father died, He asked me if I'd met anybody interesting or whatever, you know, because I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business. And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein. And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein, because I believed at that time that Epstein worked for Best Ernst. And Best Ernst was one of our banks. And I knew that my father was friendly with both Ginny Kaine and with Ace Greenberg. So my dad, Kate, was actually in New York, I think. I don't think I had this conversation on the phone,

but I honestly were talking 30 years ago, so I'm not sure. But if I, maybe I told him this verbating because I haven't. I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether he did it and told me later, that I don't remember, but he called both Jimmy Kane and Ace Greenberg to what far's gift, what sort of guy he was and was even allowed to, because, um, so, uh, so they never, they never met, he didn't even know he was, but they had, they knew some of the same. People, it sounds like are certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something that, that you, that you knew that they had. No, well, he never had a connection with Epstein. He had a connection

with the bank. I mean, Epstein, I'd never heard of him or knew of him before, and I certainly, if dad had known him right when I said this is who he was he didn't know who he was so he rang a son he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him and I just want to explain briefly why my father would even do such a thing I've had some interesting things that have happened in my life and one of them was to be found on an IRA kidnapped and murderless. And so after that happened, well there were other related, I'm not going to bore you with all the horrible things in that vein, but if you want the details, of course, I can. But after that happened, my father wanted to put a lot of protection in the

and I declined on the premise that that would be a very life, restricting events, you know, and law enforcement, I know you understand this. And so he had told me that I would be taking my life in my own hands or whatever. And so I think after that event and several others where I had still crazy things that one has, he was always quite protective of me. And so if I met somebody, he would try and verify that they weren't. going to do anything hideous. And so in case you thought it was weird that he would call Jimmy and Ace,

you may think it is, but from my perspective, he was just because he was concerned. I was in America alone, and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was. And so I don't know if I was in the room with him, I don't recall it. I know that at some point my father told me he's fine. You can see him. Yeah. He's safe.

Okay. Well, okay. So we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point, but I went down a rabbit hole for a minute. I just wanted to. No, that's helpful. Thank you. So, okay, so you're now in the 90s and you're friends with Mr. Repstein, your house, that you're decorating the house or the apartment. What happens with your relationship?

Again, I know we're talking about a 35-year time period or whatever, but to the extent you can kind of, at a. very high level talk about it. Listen, I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point. So in 1992, I slept with one time. And I was like, oh, that's it. We're going to be dating because that's how I thought. And I kind of thought of myself in that moment, like, because if you, I felt if you slept with someone that you were then dating them.

That's the world I gained for. but that really well that's how to work but we didn't sleep together again for I don't know really a significant period of time with years or I don't know if it's a year

I don't know if that feels long but maybe nine months I mean a long time and I just want to go back so I had found a house for him to rent in New York because he had asked me

I've been looking one for my father and I found one, which was a former Iranian embassy, I think it was. I think it belonged to the Iranians or the Iraqis. Someone, your girl. And I didn't know that he had any money, really, and it was, like, I wanted to say it was $12,000 a month, which can me seem like a fortune. And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't think you can afford it. And you say, it were ridiculous. Of course, I didn't afford me rented it. And that house came with a state department house because it was, I think, there was under sector station or whatever it was.

And I put it back together, but there was certain rules you couldn't paint because he had to go back and gave it back to the country. So he had this house and I had moved into a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment because all of our stuff had been either lost or frozen or, whatever, so he became in his moment by back, really, because I was like, everything was, it felt very similar to his mother, if that makes sense. Anyway, so, but I had no key to his house, I had no free access to his house, and in the entire time that he lived there, which was, I believe, until the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night in that house, ever, not that. You, oh, so you said a minute ago that, the first, that you had slept with him on one occasion, and at the time you remember thinking, you know, that this meant you're in a relationship,

but then it didn't, you really were not in that type of relationship. Did that change between 91 and 92 or whatever and years forward? So, I did travel with him. Okay. So I would go to his houses and on beach. He only had that house actually open. No, it's not true. He had the house in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio.

In where? Ohio. Okay. And he had the house in Ohio because of his business relationship with Mr. Wexner. And he had a, and I had to go and decorate and put that house together. When we traveled together, we stayed in the same there. bed, but not in the room. But I didn't.

Go ahead, it's okay. Talk. So you stayed, so when you would travel with him to his house is in Palm Beach, Ohio, or even just traveling, if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed, so sleep in the same bed with him? Yes. Okay. told me that he had a heart condition. A what? Heart condition. Heart condition, okay.

Which meant that he didn't have intercourse a lot, which suited to kind, because I actually do have a medical condition which proves me having a lot of intervals. So what was your understanding of his heart condition? and why that prevented him from having intercourse regularly. I mean, he liked other forms of... Well, let's come back. We're going to obviously spend some time, a lot of time, on the actual conduct he was accused of,

so we'll come back to that. So pick up where you were talking about, you traveling around with him. He rented the New York, I form Iranian house until around 96. That time, I believe you said that he was basically your life. Like you're with him pretty regularly. Well, I, no.

So I never was with him, actually. That is one of those misnomerates. I mean, at the beginning, I did see more with him, but I worked in his office. So I would go to the office and I would see him. And I would count in my head when I would see him, I would count that I would, that, that was, be a day that I would see. But I didn't, I never ever stayed with him. I believe, certainly

until 93 or 94, what I didn't know is that I think he was still with his actual government, who was Eva Anderson then. He became Eva Dublin. They had been together, my understanding, I think about 10 years. I'm not sure, but that's what I think, 10 years. And I had understood, from my girlfriend initially that they went together and Epsi himself told me that they were not together, but I don't think that was true. In fact, I know it's next to them. So they were still together up until, I think, 94, when at some point in that period, and Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got married.

I think in 94, I don't remember when they got married. But her, she was his best friend and his... everything he told me that he always wished he had married her and had a child with her. And I know that they, she was family for him, so his whole life. And I think even, I'm not sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is true or not, when he came back from Paris and he arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the plane. Now I think that either I read it in the discovery that I received, or I saw it somewhere, but even if she wasn't on the plane,

But even if she wasn't on the plane, there must have been some email communication where she was in Paris at the same time. I'm going to fly back. One or the other. I don't know which one is the correct version of that. So they were still obviously very close and remained throughout the time. In fact, he was so her love. And so I also know now, which I didn't know at the time,

was that he saw lots of other women. And I know that now because I can see it from the... light loads and I know it now because I can see from the emails. So you know from the case that what happened? Yes, I didn't know that a long way. Contemporaneously, I absolutely didn't know. So, okay, so just, and we're going to spend time on everything you're talking about, but just to kind of close out big picture your relationship.

So we're now in the late 90s, continue on with, again, staying high level to the extent you can, can about your relationship with him. So after, so my responsibilities increased with each acquisition that he found and each new project. So I believe the first thing that he purchased after was the ranch in New Mexico. Okay. And so what he had tasked me with, I think that was purchased in 94, if I'm right. So he had tasked me, one of the things that we did was visit, in my mind, I say every state,

but it wouldn't have been every state, but many states, to go look at real estate, according. And so I know we went to Montana, I know we went to Utah, and it was, to go look at real estate. It was fun, to be honest. And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico, and he just loved New Mexico. And then I don't remember how the ranch happened, but I don't remember that now. lost and then he ended up buying the ranch. And I think from February, it came from, well, the Kings who may have been the governor, and bought the ranch. And then I had to deal with that. And dealing with that was a big sense. I mean, the way that I thought with myself or the way that I

think is the best way to explain how I view my role was as a general manager. Because each property to me was like a hotel. So the ranch was very challenging because not only that but it had BLM land. So to maintain your BLM you have to have cattle. And I love animals

and so the first thing in horses. So I wanted it, if you're going to have a ranch, I like authenticity. So I don't think you should have a ranch if you're not going to have the things that make it special. So were you

were you paid by him along the way during this time? I became salaried at some point. My memory is that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with. That's my memory, and maybe one. And then with each, as it became more obvious, because I kept thinking I was going to be a home thing. And, but it. Did you, and financially, you were not relying,

on him, the 25,000 or whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on that money to live and his generosity to live, or did you have your own money? So there's a... And again, I want to just make sure we're talking about that. Keeping it between the late 90s, you know, maybe I guess into a little of the 2000s. I just want to hit something on the head right now. There's a tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a trust fund. Thank you.

A trust fund. I have never had entrusted at any time. So how did you live? Did you live with, I mean, 25,000 is not enough to live on. No. So I had, during this period of time, the secret, the serious food sport had come to see me in relation to my father's passing. And to establish whether I had been involved in any way with his business or with any shenanigans. I've told the story many times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat hip-hopryful, but I'll tell you what it's. My memory is, I received a matter from them that said, I can't get about my business.

And my memory, maybe he got up to the ball. There was a P.S. It's like, you snowmites, custom. I had nothing. There was no, I was never involved in any of his business, whatever. So I was free. So, but you're, you know, obviously your, your father and your family had a lot of businesses.

Is it because the money, whatever money, or whatever equity was in the businesses, just stayed with your other family members? No, there was no money. So my father was never attached to money. He was born a peasant, a real one, dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes, some clothes, but not, you know, sorry, I don't need to say, and nothing. And he was never into that.

I mean, there were things that he had his extravagances. He loved his boat and his plane. So obviously you need money for that, but there was no nothing else. And there was not a single penny that came to any else at any time ever. Okay, so when you're talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the 90s, you're very different financially. You're a very different financially positioned than he is, Meaning he's giving you money, he's paying for your, when you fly, he I assume pays for your flights.

Yes. Okay. Okay, so you, I interrupted you when you were saying how you were functioning as general manager, you helped with the New Mexico ranch. So did your role with him continue like that for many years or for how long? So I continued in 2000, well, by 1999, our relationship had found it. Why? Well, two reasons.

We were never sleeping together again, so we stopped having sexual relations in 1999. Not full sex, sorry, to be clear. Didn't mean that we didn't still share a bedroom sometime or something or whatever. He had another girlfriend. He had what? Other girlfriends. I definitive knew that it was.

over after 9-11 actually because we were both from New York and I don't know were you in New York and 9-11s and it was a scary time if you were in New York you didn't know I didn't know nobody knew what was going on and he was in 71st Street and I was in 65th Street my house and he wouldn't see me at all. I said, he was in the hospital at Lenox Hill. She asked me to look after her. And then I knew, as anyone did at that time,

if you're not going to be there for someone of knowing a living, you're never going to be there. So for me, that was the blame, and he had another English girlfriend, actually, from 2000. Are you, though, still on his... are you still being paid by him at this point? Yes. Okay, so go ahead.

So what, at that point, when you say you realize, kind of, I mean, I'm talking about the, I had had, there was a, I wanted to get married and have children. And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that that would, I don't know about them, certainly by the, late 90s, only the marriage part was never going to happen. I had believed that maybe in 96, 97, 98, maybe, but then I realized that wasn't that.

But I did think that we might have a child, which was what I had really wanted. And I realized. Okay, so what happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your relationship with him? So... Give or take, 2001. So we stopped having physicality.

I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't friends. I certainly did stay sometimes in his room. I mean, friends with benefits, if you are, just not sex. And I started dating. Okay. And I met someone that I found very much another in 2003. His name was Ted Waite. Ted Waite, you may know as the founder of Gates.

the computers. And we had an amazing relationship but ended up until 2010, I think, and I was with Ted from that time. Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein? No, well, indirectly. I suppose you could face it.

They never met. I was, um, as a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't. I was going to prefer President Clinton. President Clinton was my friend, or Epstein's friend. And Epstein had flown him. And there was a dinner, and Ted came to the dinner. So I guess indirectly through Mr. Epstein because it was his plane,

but I'd have been there anyway without him. Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew? On that trip, yes. Oh, well, yes. That, yes. So when you say, The dinner was what? Okay.

Okay. And so you had flown over with... So who was on the plane for that trip? I don't mean everybody. You said Mr. Epstein was on the plane? Yes. You were on the plane? Yes.

Who else? That you can remember. I'm not... You only know what you remember. Is President Clifton on the plane? Clinton. He would have had his guy, Doug, Lance. Maybe Jason could...

a family trep of the two. And you, and so why, so how do you meet, so why did he say that's when you met him and that he met him through Clinton? Well, it was a, I don't think Ted would have been there had it not been, it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came to meet with President Clinton not to do with Mr. Epstein.

Does that make sense? Yes. That's why I say that. Okay, so you're, so in the time that you're dating, that you're with him to 2009, are you still working for Mr. Epstein during that time? So here's, so, um, it would you say that Jeffrey tried very hard, Mr. Exxon tried very hard to keep me to work for him because, I mean, this is a complex operation.

I'm not talking about anything until just the sheer size of the projects and thinking about the construction projects, the houses, the staff. it's a really significant job. And I ran all the properties, the staff in the property, the management of the properties, that, and all the construction. And we're talking tens of millions of dollars,

but I can't remember what the budget was for the construction on any given year. It's gone. But these are very significant projects. And so that was what I did and I managed the budgets. Well, not, I didn't manage the budgets. I oversaw the budget. So I would just make sure that if you said you bought an outdoor,

a air conditioning plant, I saw an air conditioning plant and I could call the island manager, did you receive the carrier, whatever, you know. When did Mr. Uppson purchase the island? I want to say 96 or 97, something like that. Okay, so we're going to come back and spend more time on the money with respect to Mr. Epstein and his wealth, but just so we can finish this. So in 2009, you ended your relationship with Ted?

2009, 2010. Okay. I can't remember if it was 10. Okay. So in that time period, what happens next, as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein? I don't have one or ten. don't have one of them like you don't see him or it's just a different relationship I did see maybe someone once or twice maybe even three times I certainly went to his house

once for sure maybe twice but I was not seeing him the only time that I was in touch with him was when the things happened like things in the press that affected me or when the the VRA case was filed and there was all that rubbish that went out because I needed information because I didn't know I didn't know anything about what was happening and I needed his help a to understand I I I don't mean his help I meant to have answers so that I had an ability to defend myself that's what I'm not talking so when does that relationship change so you so you're working so you're working You talked about when the physical relationship stopped, and then you're still working for him or with him, managing his properties and being serving as like a general manager. You then start your own relationship with another individual with Ted from 2003 till 2009 or 10.

At what point in that whole period is there like more of a break where you're no longer acting as his general manager? So I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted. and he was clever. I suppose it would be true to say that I sort of viewed, just I've seen that point, it's sort of family, if you will, like someone I could rely on, and I should have had more confidence in myself. I can see that now,

but at the time given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it would, and I saw how he was with other people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable, saying, and I thought, basically, and he always said I was like family, so he worked hard to maintain a relationship with me. He was generous with me. He never used to plane in to six, which was very generous. He would check in with my mum. He thinks that were meaningful to me in that time. And then, it may still not have worked, but that

his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious car crash. And she had become sort of like a surrogate mother for me, sort of because my mum wasn't there. I could look after her the way that I would have liked to look after my own mum. So I became very close to his mother. and she had been in a car crash and in 2004 I believe it may have been five I don't recall exactly she took her health took a serious decline and Epstein called me and asked me if I could look after her and by looking after her that

meant organizing her doctors making sure she She had new clothes, making sure our house was clean. Where was she? She lived in a retirement establishment outside of Palm Beach. It's West Palm. I was going to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not called that. I just don't remember what it's called. But it was an old age.

It was a retirement home, if you will. Todd, I don't know. We've been going for maybe about an hour now. Is this a good time? Yeah, yeah. So we'll take a break. All right, so we're going to take a break. The time is 10.56.