American court hearing recordings and interviews - Ghislaine Maxwell interview 7/24/2025. Day 1. Part 3. (from www.justice.gov/maxwell-interview)

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

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I were continuing the proper interview with Ms. Maxwell. The time is 11.07 a.m. on Thursday, July 24th. All right. So, just picking up where we just stopped. So you have basically a break. Well, not a break. That's the wrong word. But your relationship with Mr. Maxwell,

professional and other changes in 2003-4? Yeah. I mean, over the time. time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm with Ted, the more distance I have with him. And then when the arrest, well, let's go back, when he, whatever, whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested in 2000. So when he's charged and arrested in what we'll call the Florida investigations, that's what you're talking about. I am. Okay, go ahead. So I had, I was not in well

well were you part of that investigation did law enforcement ever talked to you as part of that did you like the feds never talked to you the FBI never talked to you I never even received a phone call did you so you didn't receive a subpoena? No. Did the

state law enforcement ever reached out to you? No. As far as you know did the government either state or federal subpoena your bank records or subpoena anything from your financial life during that time, during that time? Not as far as I'm aware. Now, if they did, I don't know it, and I have no idea about that. To be honest, but I'm not aware of it, and I would say no, but maybe you guys do things that I don't know.

So how did you learn of that case when Mr. Epstein was arrested, or did you know that something was happening before then? The first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to redecorate. the house end in Palm Beach. Didn't surprise me. It was like a rolling situation. But by that time, are you doing, are you, like he tells you because he wants your help,

or had your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as his general manager? No, I was still around. I wasn't gone. I was with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn't daily. If you'd asked me where he was in any given time,

I'm not sure I would have known then. I mean, it was, I felt like, I suppose, the relationship moved into sort of like a long-time friend, family, you know, like I felt he had with Eva, if I'm honest. Yeah, okay. So he says to you he's going to redecorate the home-be child. He asked me specifically which decorator he thinks he should use because I had a lot of contacts with decorators and he was not very good with people. He was useless at maintaining relationships with people who worked for him. I'm not. So anyway, so I recommended, I think I recommended.

I can't be 100% sure because it's a long time, but I think I recommended Mark Zeff at that time. Who? Mark Zeff, I believe. And I don't know why. I don't remember. That's all lost to time. But anyway, at some point, I think his mother had died now.

I can't remember the timing of all of that either. But I ended up in Palm Beach, and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches or whatever he was doing because they had laid it all out over the house and various things, and I think he'd asked for my opinion. That's my memory of this. It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach because Ted had a golf match or something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach. It wasn't so leaf.

I don't, maybe that's not true either. I don't know. Okay. There's a, you know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there. I don't know if that's part of that time or not. Or Ted went there and left me. I don't know. Something.

Anyway, I was there. No, that's not how that I've got to either. No. Anyway, at some point in that time, I saw all the swatches. At some point in 2005, I think that was. And then, I believe, I don't remember. I think I got a phone call. call actually. I wasn't in Pine Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was a police at his

house or something. Would you've got a phone call from him or you think you'd just told by somebody that knew that it happened or don't, or don't you remember? Definitely not him. Okay. I think it would have been the house. So when that happens, whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you know that Mr. Epstein is being investigated for... I didn't even know what, I didn't even understand. Okay. didn't have a context for that. It was like, I didn't even know. I didn't know. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I'm not sure you from what I thought.

I was like, that's weird. After he, after you find out about it, what happens with your relationship with him? I asked him, I asked him what was going on. And he said, not to worry, nothing, nothing, thank you. Don't worry about it. And then it went quiet. I didn't, he didn't say, didn't share. I wasn't part of it.

at all. I was off with Ted and I really just... But did he tell you, well, why don't we come back to more specifics around that time period in a few minutes? I want to just finish this opening part. So that case goes on. Ultimately, it ends. What was a relationship like with him during that case when he goes, you know, when he asked, he told me, he said, listen, I'm going to jail. I was like, well, okay. And he goes, I'd like you to stay on board

to manage the properties, the animals, this and that, and just stay put, and I'll continue to pay you in cases in any emergency. I don't trust anyone. And I was like, okay. Well, when you said continue to pay you, had he, is he? He'd never stop paying me.

He never stopped paying. So even when your relationship changes, you're getting, does the amount, increased from the 25,000 or so a year in the beginning? How much are you getting paid yearly? I think it ended at the time. Well, we had different payment structures, and I'm happy to explain how that was.

But I think salary-wise, if I'm right, it ended it around a quarter of a million a year. How much? Quarter of a million, $250,000. And when did it end? When was that that? 2008 or nine. Nine.

When did he come out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail. Okay. So, and over the years, it increased from what you said, what you thought about 25,000 to 250,000. That's between, like, early 90s until 2009 or 10, whenever he stopped. Is that right? Yes.

And how were you paid? W2. W2 from which, from what company are? He, like, he just moved me around over to this company. That, I didn't care. Okay. And I didn't care and I didn't think, I didn't understand. any rhyme or reason, it doesn't feel, I just, you know, whatever.

Okay, so when he's going to go to jail, he says, can you stay around and manage everything? Yeah. And do you do that? I do. Okay. And then, and then we'll come back to that. Well, not manage everything, no. I mean, there are other people at this point.

My specific role then was very, very diminished. I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions that was still made the island. Okay. And wherever else I was going to, Paris at this point, because I speak French. fluent in French. And also my relationship with the French decorator was critical to him. In the French component part of that aspect, that was really vital. And so you'd have had to find someone who was, well, actually, and the Spanish, trilingual. You would have had to find someone with trilingual to find that he trusted.

Did you... To not steal from him. Did you... So when he gets out of jail, between that time 2009 or 10 and 2019 what's your relationship like with Mr. Epstein?

Almost nonexistent. Why? I had just moved on and I just didn't want to have anything to it. I didn't want the drama. I didn't want to be associated. You've finally broken loose from work. Three friends, one tea time, and then the text.

Honey, there's water in the basement. Not exactly how much. you pictured your Saturday. That's when you call us, Cincinnati Insurance. We always answer the call because real protection means showing up, even when things are in the rough. Cincinnati Insurance. Let us make your bad day better.

Find an agent at CINFIN.com. So do you recall, when you say almost non-existent, does that mean some phone calls, some visits, some trips, So what does it mean? I don't think there were any trips. Oh, I don't think so. Where were you living during that time period? Which time period?

Between 2009, 10 and 2019. I was back in New York. So you had no... So you had phone calls with them on my occasion? Yes. Well, I certainly did. Whenever there was any legal drama or any, like, serious press intention,

I always called him to try and find out what was going on. Okay. Okay. And I did email him at that time for those types of details. I was like, what do I do? I mean, I was like... And then when he's charged in New York, federally, how did you learn about that case? In the press. And had you, as far as you know, been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest? No. I wasn't in an indictment. No, I know that, but even as a witness or asking you if you would give documents or materials. I had never, up until when my lawyers said that I don't even know, I had no knowledge of them being interested in me, honestly, I don't, I want to say until he had

died. Now I know that my lawyers were in touch with some district of New York at some point after his address, I'm pretty sure that had to have happened, right? But my understanding is that they had not shown any interest. I know my lawyers went to see them, once, I believe. Went to see him meeting Mr. Epstein? No, them, the Southern District of New York. Okay, the South of New York. Sorry.

And that they had been in regular, in touch with them. But now are you talking about after Mr. Epstein died, or are you talking about before he died? I think. If you can't remember. Easily verifiable. My memory is, that they were in touch with them

when he was arrested I don't know if anything happened until after his death then after that I don't think they saw them met with them, Southern District of New York I'm talking about now until after he died I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them

and that my lawyers believed that they had been told that there was no interest in me and were absolutely stunned when I was arrested Maybe stunt is too bigger word, but surprised. I certainly was. Okay. So let's, okay, so that's, that's, was a long description of what was a very long life and that was very helpful. So I want to go back and talk more specifically now about particular areas and that was a very helpful kind of foundation for us.

The first, the first thing I want to talk about, you talk about earlier on about Mr. Epstein's, financial success. Do you know how he, when you first meet him at some point, you say, I got this place for you to rent, you can't afford it, and he laughs at you and says, yes, I can. What did you learn about his wealth and how he was, and how he accumulated his money? I can tell you what he told me.

Yes. So I know that he was hired from working at a private school, whose name alludes me at this point. Dalton. He was working at Dalton. He was a math teacher. And he met, I think it was Ace, I'm not sure. He met someone from Bear who hired him because he was very good of math. And I believed that he then worked on creating a trading of... Just describe what it's a great. He came up with a new type of trading system, not as a system so much, but as a vehicle, a trading vehicle, that I'm just escaping right now.

And this is why he was working at Baird at best times, yes. Okay. And was this before you met him? Yes. So this is what he told you. Yes. And what you learned. Yes, this is what he told me himself. And so, and then eventually he starts a financial firm?

Do you know that, to be true or no? Jay Epstein and company, you ever heard of that? Yeah, yes. So, hang on a minute. So this I did not know, but this I had subsequently learned, is that he had some problem or some issue at Bear Stand's, and there was some, I don't know, disagreement. He wasn't fired, because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him, but they were working with him, and he ran. He had money at Bear Stand, his money, his client's money, will come to that. But he started, he told me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money.

So if somebody, I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say, but I can't think of anything. I've been with, not ready, I'll give it to you. So let's say you have El Chapo. God, I don't know where he comes from, but anyway, we've got El Chapo. and El Chapo is laundering money, or he's working with the Sinolaura cartel, and he steals money from the Sinairoa cartel, and he moves it to wherever. So he's got stolen money from the Sinai, Sinaloa, goes to Epps. This didn't happen.

I'm just coming up with something in my head. And the Sinaloa, he says to Epsen, can you track down my billion dollars that the other cartels stole from me, and Epteam, we'll go and find the billion dollars, and will take a portion of the money that was stolen as a fee and give back the remainder. That would be on a percentage basis. No, but like what you just described, which I appreciate it was just a... Please, that was completely hypothetical. That would involve, like, so two kind of drug cartels stealing from each other.

Practically speaking, he was more of a businessman. So here's how I think that started is that he had a girlfriend. It was always good. You're always to the girls. I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me. Maybe not whilst we're here, but I don't know, maybe. There's a woman. There's always a woman.

And she was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire, whatever his name was, had had some money stolen. And for some reason, there's a woman introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey, I think that's how that business started. That's what I remember. And is that something he told you about, something that happened while you knew him. No, something he told me before he met him.

And so when you meet him and once you're part of his life in the early to mid-90s, what is he doing to make money that you see? Does he have clients? Does he have rich clients? Does he have famous clients? And if he does have clients, what service is he providing them? He does have, well, obviously there's the one very famous client that everybody talks about, which is less wax now.

And that was a very important client to him. and he I think it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine what I imagine what I know

to be true about what he managed for less and there's some bits that I'll be improvising I want to just make you understand

I was not part of Epstein's business world except tangentially and obviously so what I'm talking about is what I observed or would I

overheard or what I saw within the business, but I wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or anything like that. So it was separate. Yeah, I understand. Okay. So with Les, for instance, it was really all-encompassing. It could go from the structure of the business.

So he would, he structured or restructured the limited. I know that. And I'll come back to that because I also traveled with him and less. And I was in business meetings with him on the plane when they were there. So I could observe and I could hear some of this. And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly business sophisticated and sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of what was happening. All right.

So then he restructured the business. He restructured his entire personal finances and would also handle all of the investment strategy. I don't know if it was 100%. Mr. Wexner, if you said. Sorry, yes. This is all Wexen I'm talking about now. So let's say you had a billion dollars to invest.

So you would, you know, in people's normal investment portfolios, you'd have, you know, some T-Bowls, some this and that. But Epstein's strategies would be much more sophisticated than that. So just staying with Mr. Wexner, from what you heard or saw, is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? So there would be a deal and he would be paid, or did you understand it to be like a flat fee? Was he a business partner?

How did you understand him do you pay? I think it was more al-a-cart. So let's say this is a conversation actually, Epstein told me, so illustrated for me, said if I saved someone $5 billion, he would take a flat percentage of that

$5 billion, he wouldn't have $5 billion back and he would take... What you say you think that? Is that because you heard him talking about that? Are you... It would be a combination of both. I certainly told me that and I heard him talk to people like that. I couldn't... Sorry. No, no, go ahead. No.

Did he give... Did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein? So we're talking about 71st Street. So I don't know what the business deal was. Because, again, I'm not part of his business thing. But I think what happened would be, let's say Les owed him in theoretically for his services, 100 million or whatever it was. He could have traded that against the property.

But do you know that that happened or that's, are you kind of, do you remember whether there was conversations about that? Are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened? I'm not sure. I'm not trying to be. I just don't remember if that's something I know or if that's something that I remember or if it's something that I subsequently know it. I believe that to be what happened,

but I don't want to tell you that I have, does that make sense? Did Mr. Wexner and Mr. Uppstein, are you aware of their falling out that they ultimately had? I think I wasn't there, and I don't know how it had. happened and you know what less has said in the press. So you only know about their, you know, they're falling out or whatever you want to call it

from what you've kind of read, not from any first-hand knowledge. You weren't there, you weren't part of that. Correct. Do you know somebody named Steven Hoffenberg? Only from the press. Okay. And so you don't know anything about whatever business relationship, they may have had, Mr. Epstein.

Never spoke about him, never mention it. I only learned about that, whatever that is. I don't even know what the truth is of that story from the press. How about Leon Black? Oh, it did meet Leon. Do you know Leon.

When do you remember, and again, I know we're talking about a very long time ago, but do you remember approximately when you met him? I could have met Leon, not really... So I might have met him nothing to do because Leon Black is a very good friend with other friends of mine, I would have met him, when I say socially I might have met him, how Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I'm not sure.

But not through you as far as you were called. Not through me as far as I know, no. I'm sure that's not through me. Do you know what kind of work Mr. Epstein was doing from Mr. Black over the years? The same as what he did for Wexner. So we just talked about two individuals. And again, I know we're talking about maybe a 15-year time period or even longer. How many clients like that do Mr. Epstein have?

Well, why don't I just give you the names that I remember? Say it again? Why won't I just give you the names? Do you want the names? No, sure. Go ahead. Elizabeth Johnson, Johnson and Johnson. When did, as far as you know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson and Mr. Upstein start? 90s.

I don't know. I, 95, 96. So during the time period? Yes, we're talking 90s. We're talking when I was there, when I was around. How did the relationship start? I don't know how he became that friend. Boy, he ended up managing her money.

I wasn't there. I mean, he, I really had a separate life. We really had separate lives. except where they sacked. But it wasn't from... It wasn't from you. No, it was not. Okay.

And what's your understanding of what Mr. Repton did for Ms. Johnson? The same as what he did for Wexner. And when I... I have to understand it went down to in tiny detail. So I remember, this I remember, this is an actual memory, that he would make the contracts for the maids, for the people who worked in their homes. So he would assist his clients at times with...

you're saying with even small things like contractual relations he said no detail was too small because everything that affected how they lived and how they managed their life was something that he felt he was if they wanted would be responsible for to make sure that the contract so that if you had to fire someone it wouldn't come back to sue you or if it's that that sort of um okay so mr black mr werner miss johnson who else that's the name

This one named Jess Staley? Yeah, I do know Jess. Who's that? He was at Morgan Stanley, Anna Barclays. Do you know whether he and Mr. Upshine had a relationship? Well, not a physical one. Business one. I didn't suggest it.

No, I'm saying a relationship in the broader sense of word. Business, personal, both. Yes, both. Okay. And do you know when they met? No, I don't know when they met. But you can time it. No, I don't know that you can.

No, I don't know. So, but what was the nature of their relationship as far as you know? I think they were friends, and I think that they were business partners. Well, partners, too strong a word, but they worked. They did business together. So did you, again, I want to stay focused on the time where you were the most involved in his life. So the early 90s through early 2000s. And the beginning of the 2000s, yes.

Did you, so we talked about four people? There's more. Were there more? Oh, yes, there were more. There was a lady whose name I just can't. Can I get my book? Maybe I wrote them down. Sure.

Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients. What book are you used? What is that? I'd wait some notes for the meeting. Okay, great, okay. No, that's fine. I just was curious what we're looking at. Oh, okay.

Not the birthday book. No, we're going to come to that, I'm sure. All right. I wrote down some names because I tried to make... I just want you to understand. My memory's not as good as... it was because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in the shoe for almost two years, and I was on suicide watch for almost two years, which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes for the

entire time, and it really did affect my ability to... I understand. Okay. So I'm not... So you've taken some notes... I just made some names in advance of this. And you're happy to look at them as well. Go ahead.

Okay, well, funny, you should say, first two names, one is Wexner, two is Staley, three is Leon Black. Okay. Glenn Dubin, was a plant. Who's that? Eva Dubin's husband. Okay. What was there, I mean, if you can, do you know about when that relationship started? Well, it wouldn't have been before they got married for sure, so we're going to start, you're going to date that from wherever that was.

and then Epstein was heavily involved with Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of Highbridge to J.P. Morgan. Okay. Go ahead. There's a Dublin, yeah. Okay, you're only looking for clients. All right, there's a woman, well, he... There's a woman in Ohio.

I just can't think of her name, but it will... I tried to remember it yesterday. So this is a good thing. As you think of things, write it down. And if they have any other names, they'll ask you. Right. Don't force it out. So you'll have time to think about this,

especially today and this afternoon overnight, because we'll probably meet tomorrow. But you can find them. I mean, if you basically find a billionaire, female. So there's a woman in Ohio who's wealthy. Well, you can identify her yourself because she had the largest climb painting. That was huge.

So you can find her because it'll be in the movie. So that's her. So he, that was one of Mr. Epstein's clients. She was one of Mr. Epstein's clients as well. Yes. Okay. Who else? Well, I think that there was people, other people that he would like assist.

I know that he helped Lynn Forrester who became Linda Rothschild. She'll deny it and she has, but she... And when you say help the same... Well, so... ...and what he did for her. I have no idea what he did for her. I know he helped her financially. her husband was the controller of New York.

So, but I don't, again, I'm not inside his business, but he would have, his, his, this notion that he blackmailed men, we don't have to go there, that he wasn't a businessman and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or whatever. I don't believe that to be true. Why? Sorry?

Why do you, so you say you don't believe to be true, but show me why you think that. Okay. I know you've been talking about it, that he was very, he was very conscientious, he was very good at math. He was, paid a lot of attention to his clients, but yes, you're right. There's allegations of blackmail or also that there was some level of fraud involved in what he did,

and you don't believe it. Why do you say that? Well, let me rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it. What I saw or what I felt when I, his, I ran that office. I mean, rent, I was responsible for the staff. People worked. There were lawyers.

There were accountants. I never heard him I never I never felt anything icky did you ever see him blackmail a client did you ever see him blackmail

a friend or an acquaintance well so I think when folks talk about blackmail and we can talk about that sorry about that we can talk about that now there are a lot of allegations about him which we should talk about, and we can do that now,

and the fact that he abused young women. Yes. Full stop, okay? Which means the way that I'm defining abuse, as has been, why they're reported, is that he would cause young women in high school to be recruited to come to his house and give him massages, and as part of that, he would sexually abuse them.

Yes. So I want to talk about that, but as it relates to blackmail, the question is whether you're aware of any time that any of the individuals we're talking about, and we'll talk about others, receive massages from women who are under 18 or may have been under 18, and that whether there was any sexual assaults or sexual contact between any of these people and those masseuses. which would have allowed them, Mr. Epstein, potentially, to blackmail them and say, you have to continue to work with me, or you have to give me money, or else I'm going to tell the world that you did this. Right. I think this is a really good place to start with how this story began. Okay. So even, let's assume that that premise is correct,

that he was doing that and he was going to tell everybody. going to say, oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with her underage girl. If you don't have video or photographic evidence, I'm not sure that even the FBI would take that. Well, maybe today, but certainly not. But would take that seriously. So you have to have something to say, hey, you know, look, I've got this video of you doing terrible things. And you need to. So I built. those houses, many of them. I decorated those houses. I put the electricians in for the wiring. I never wired nor saw a single house that had any type of inappropriate, let's say, video

surveillance, and I'll define that for you. Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom, in a bedroom, in any private area of a home. In a room where there were massages, get inappropriate. I would say I would define appropriate surveillance to be the front door of a house or potentially as in 71st Street the physical plant. Anywhere else would be grotesque. So I just want to come back to, I know I'm just hopefully saying the obvious, but when you say the houses, you're talking about his New York Brownstone. You're talking about

the island in the Caribbean. Yes. You're talking about the residents in Palm Beach. Yes. And you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico. Yes.

Anywhere else? Paris. And in Paris. And so... And the plane. I saw some ridiculous thing with a plane that was about my journey.

I didn't hire any electrician on the plane. So unequivocally, unequivocally, from what you know, and you only know what you know. I only know what I know. But from what you know, you do not believe a camera exists or a video camera or a camera that takes pictures inside any of his residences. Correct. So even the appropriate cameras that you just talked about, which would be kind of exterior security cameras, did you know whether there was any cameras that you're aware of inside any of the locations?

Never. With one exception. Okay. What's the exception? The exception is Palm Beach. Okay. And the reason, so in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen. He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase, call it his briefcase. And he called in the Palm Beach Police, and they, the Palm Beach Police, installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase. Where was that, do you remember?

At his desk. in, so the house on the ground floor was, he had a desk sort of in a corner. There was that camera. I think there was another camera. I think there were two or maybe three cameras. I believe only on the ground floor wherever he may have had, maybe he had another office in the cabana. There may be a camera there. When was this? I'm not looking for an exact date, but what time period are you thinking about when you said? 2003. I think I can take it. dated for you precisely, actually. 2003

I'm pretty firm on that date. And I can be firm because John Alessie, the butler, was fired in the end of 2002, and he was the thief. So aside from law enforcement installing a camera to try to catch somebody stealing money for Mr. Epstein, you're not aware of any cameras

at the island? No? Sorry, just so we record. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. That's okay. You were not in your head, no. So what about... There's no cameras anywhere outside of possibly things that I would consider myself.

I would consider normal. So the garage gate, something like that, a front door. Outside, like security cameras. Security cameras. And there were cameras inside in the 71st Street that did the plant, the physical plant, because it was a commercial building. So you had the whole, that's a real thing there, it's a commercial building. And there were a camera, there was one camera on the front door internal,

from the internal that did the front door, as I recall. But there were no other cameras inside the house. Did you ever, how about photographs, did you ever observe Mr. Epstein or anybody around him, take pictures of anybody in compromising positions with women or with anybody. No. Did you ever hear,

when you were present for conversations Mr. Epstein was having or others were having, anybody accused him of blackmailing them or of trying to extort them because of something Mr. Epstein knew? No. There have been...

And you... In the discovery, In the discovery you got in the New York case, okay? Yes. And in the civil cases that you've been part of associated with Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or ever been told that video exists like what we're talking about or photos were taken that we're compromising? So in the, in both of those, I didn't receive no pictures or in this. from the civil case. But in the criminal case, I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw binders, photographs of women. Um,

entertainment. I never saw any, well, I don't know how old some of these women were. There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs of them, um, in, in, without, And those photographs were the victims that were photographed, were there any of the people you've talked about, were there men with the victims, or were they just photographs of the victims? There was no men with these pictures. There was no client of his with those pictures.

They would be standalone, for want of a better word, like modeling shots. If you were... Pictures that Epstein... had with the girls but not Epstein with the clients and the girls. Correct. Did you, I understand you said you got those in the discovery. Did you know those pictures like that existed? So right now I'm talking about photographs of victims or photographs of women

that Mr. Epstein had on his computer or wherever he had them. Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovered? Some of them, absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of these pictures were on his credenza or whatever. Some pictures I've simply never seen before. I've never seen some of them. Some of them I had, some of them I hadn't. So you're right, and I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful

in a compromising position. would be good blackmail. So, putting aside what you've said about the fact that you don't know of any existence of those, did you observe over the years the folks we're talking about, or others, which we can talk about, getting massages from young women? So I just, I think it's really helpful to understand a few things that has been missed in this whole Michigan. That's a technical term.

I'll look it up later. Go ahead. I thought about this obviously a lot and I've given it some, so this is the benefit of some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think. So just for clarity sake.

I think, I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of, not all, but some of what he's accused of. And I'm not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever and I don't want to and I don't think he requires nor deserves any type of protection or for me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do so there's that however the man I met and the man he became I believe that there is a progression and I don't think that the man I

met is the man that he became. I believe he became that man over a period of time. Now, we can discuss anything you want, and I'll tell you everything I know. But I think somebody who has an interest, however you define that, in underage people, is obviously someone who is unwell. But I don't think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he's accused of. I think this is something that you develop or you progress to, I think. Because... But Glenn, before you get into all that, let's answer the top line question and then get into it. Okay, the top line question is...

Did you ever see any of these people with underage... No, no. So the reason I'm saying that is not to avoid that question, but it's because by the time when you're talking in the 90s, I don't think he was there. that description, I think that this, what you're talking about is a later version. Yeah. And does that, is that? No, I understand that. And I do want to talk. I'm not.

So it's just, I think you need to separate the periods of time. Sure. Because it, this, one of the things that was definitely missing in my trial and definitely missing from the narrative is this notion, this, everything happened. And he was always been, no, I don't believe that to be true. So, that's, that's fine. And I do want to talk about that. I'm not. I'm not pushing that away. I'm just putting it aside for a moment. What Mr. Epstein did, and frankly what you did or are accused of doing,

is one thing that we'll talk about. But right now, what I want to understand is whether one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his clients or took care of them or some would say blackmail them was by encouraging them to interact with women, underage or not. So I think in the 90s he may have encouraged them, but these were people who were in their 20s or 30s. So he would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and female, by the way, in the 90s that's never been discussed,

both in yoga and everything. There were men as well as women. And so if he would travel, and I can show them to you, highlighted them on the flight record so you could see that there really were men that were also there. He would say, would you like to do yoga with Tito or would you like a massage with this one,

but they would be in their late 20s and professional masseuses. So I think there's a distinction. And I want to talk about actual individuals here, and I understand the distinction between somebody who's an adult and someone who's underage. But even with somebody who's an adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, whether it's a client or somebody else?

I certainly witnessed him. So if he was staying with him and you had a massage, he would often travel with a masseuse. He would say, hey, would you like a massage? And he did do that, yes. But would you or him or anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual concept? I never did, no. So meaning, and then coming back to the book, blackmail issue. There's nothing wrong with getting a massage. Of course not. Especially, you know, especially if somebody's, obviously, an adult and masseuse. I'm not quibbling with that. My question is that there's a lot of accusations that one of the way Mr. Maxwell, I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was through this idea of blackmail. And yes, young women and is a crime. Children are, is a crime. But even women over the age of 18, if Mr. Epstein, if Mr. Epstein,

encourage these men or whomever to get massages and have inappropriate sexual contact with the masseuses. That's a separate issue, maybe slightly nuanced, but did you ever know him to do that? I never did absolutely myself. I never heard him ask someone. I never heard that. In the entire time I was with him or friends with him or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened. or was upset by, I never saw Tate, I never saw ever, any of them.

And when you say no one ever reports me, meaning like the masseuses or any of the house staff or the clients. Or the clients themselves. Never. So, so let's, again, I want to stay, and coming back now to what you were talking about a moment ago with Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or getting worse, just staying within the 90s. What role did you have or what did you observe, which are two different issues, but both important, with respect to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess, Palm Beach or to travel or eventually New Mexico. What role did you have in that?

He asked me to find masseuses for him. Say it again? He asked me if I could find him maususus. Like as part of, like you said, you were as general matters, as part of all your duties, that was one of them. And I did do that. So the first person, I believe that I introduced him to as a masseuse, was somebody called . She was, I don't know, mid-late 20s, professional masseuse. Was this something that happened early on in your relationship or, and again, I know we're talking about the 90s, but are we talking about early 90s or is this later on?

So in terms of massage, I have a lot of injuries. I do a lot of dangerous sports. and have had multiple serious accidents and walk without any lameness because of physical therapy and massage. That to me is a very, it's medicinal for me. So Epstein, whatever his massage situation, whatever, he loved massage. And if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur, I introduced them. And he, because I got them, and he asked me if I did, and I said yes. And that's, I'm pretty sure that would have, well, I can't remember. 93, 92, from the beginning.

So, go ahead. So then what happens over the next, you know, like, there's been, there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort that you were part of and that he was a part of and others to try to find more and more masseuses. Is that true and what role did you have in that? That is partially true. So it is true that I found masseuses and he became more insistent.

He like knew all the time. He got bored, so he would be bored with a masseuse and he would say find me a new masseuse. I am the entire opposite. If I find someone that I like, I stay with them. I'm like, I don't want new. He would drive for new. So that is true. And in my effort to find them, I would go to massage spas, like legitimate spas.

We're not talking, you know, funky ones that people have. And if I got a massage from somebody in a spa that was, I liked, I liked. I asked them if they would do home visits, if they said yes. I would ask them to come to the house, and they would see if you like them or not. But these were people who worked in Spars. I never ever checked their age, and I never checked their credentials. I never asked for a certificate. What, but just to be clear, you never thought anybody was under eight.

I never crossbook. I never, no, that was never my, that was never a drive. What did you know at the time about Mr. Epstein? requiring masseuses to be naked or requiring massuses to either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein or to be there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that. And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year period or whatever, 10-year period. So I appreciate that's a very broad question. So answer it in a way that addresses what you've been charged with doing, but also what's been said about you. Okay, so I don't, the 90s, I don't think that I ever thought that never would

cross my mind. I'm not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all until his arrest and those papers came out. But I believe the subject of the question that you're asking me, I believe started in the 2000s. In the 2000 time period? Yes, 2000. Why do you, why do you think, like what in your mind makes you think that that's the time that it started? I think, because In December of 2001, he met . And I think Fri. Was responsible for that

in its entirety. And the reason I believe that, so this, she was a self-confessed, having been sexually abused as a young girl, and was trained home. words I'm quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of whatever that is, sex programme by a man called Ron Napinger, who was her pen from when she was 14, I believe, or 15, I don't know. And in her book describes him training her to be what every man wants in all its manners,

and everything else. I believe that then what happened was that he met her and she came as a masseuse to his house in December of 2001 is when I think it started. Now what their relationship was on what happened with them in that early period of time, I cannot say. What I can say is that he liked her and she started to travel with him.

I believe, I know then what happened was that she, when she first started to see him, or first came into his orbit as his masseuse or whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring and was living with her fiancé. She broke up after a few months with her fiancée and took up with the local drug dealer. So let's say after four or five months in the time period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say, we're now May, June of 2002, or so 2000, I'm good, from, whenever she hits the, whatever that is, that's 2000, I think it's 2000, I'm sorry, I think it's when she met him, December of 2000. So then you go through, I don't remember, you'll have to look.

Okay. I'm not holding you to exact dates. No, I mean, I'm just trying to, I'm giving the, so then I think, so she takes up with the local drug dealer, and she becomes druggy, druggy, like, you know her druggy's what a leader. I live with a lot in Tallahassee, they become even more unreliable than normal. And at some point, she's now working somewhere else. He stopped seeing her because he doesn't like people who do drugs. And I think that not seeing her lasted five or six months, and in that period of time, she could, got arrested for theft and she had a warrant out for her arrest.

Now they have pieced together because this piece I didn't know. She then called Epstein to have help avoiding the warrant for her arrest and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage therapy license. This is the bit that I guess. This is the bit that I guess. is the bit that I extrapolated. In the period of time from when she came back to when she left, he asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever she was doing. And she brought the first replacement for her that would have been one of the accusers in my case, I think, would have been and that, and then everyone who came subsequent, or simultaneously if she wasn't, the first, I don't know. Everyone, every single person who came to his house came through

and her boyfriend, Tony, and then whoever else underneath her. And that is how it started. So before her. Tony Figuero. Tony Figuero. Before her, so now going back in the 90s, you don't believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing massuses. Underage? Or overage. I mean, I think

I'm using abuse in the broadest sense of word because I'm assuming that you said that you have no idea over the years. You always assumed the masseuses were overage, right? So what I'm talking about abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse comes in to give a massage and is told

to take off their clothes, told they're not going to get paid, or they don't care off their clothes, basically suggest that they had to watch him masturbate. Like the things that have been publicly said about what he did. For now, I'm not distinguishing the adults or young or underage women for that. I'm going to think that that would have been

a habit. Okay. I'm going to say that the massage game was a habit. What does that mean? That means that I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2002. I am sure he must have

had relations with masseuses. He knows when. But you're saying, as far as you, I use the word abuse, you're saying that as far as you sit here today, you would describe that more as consensual, meaning the masseuse did this willingly? I saw him with lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on my observation, I don't think that if you are being raped as now he's like this prolific. I just can't imagine why you would return.

It's not what you observed at the time. Not what I observed at the time, no. We're going to spend a little, we're going to spend more time on this issue because I think it's important, but just going back to kind of the question that I started with in this area, which is that it ties into the blackmail issue.

So we talked about people that were as clients, and you've mentioned, President Clinton And then early on Oh, I never said he was a client I did not say you said I'm saying you talk about his clients Oh, okay, right

And then he puts his clients off the side And then you mentioned some other people You mentioned President Clinton He mentioned President Trump early on Who were other famous slash politicians Who were other individuals In Mr. Epstein's life

During that time period So the early 90s The 90s Should we just Yes Okay, Congressman McMillan. Say it again?

McMillan. Okay. Henry Rossovsky, who was the provost of Harvard. Hang on today. Sure, you're looking at your notes. Go ahead. Go ahead. Joe Pagano, Jerry Goldsmith,

Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson, I don't know if in the 90s, Tom Pritzker. Ace, Jimmy Kane, Lou Ranieri, I mean, there were... What about the royal family? No, he didn't know them in the 90s.

What about the... What about Prince Andrew? Didn't know him in the 90s. Oh, well, is that right? I wouldn't know there, I do not know. So, I don't want you to worry about exact dates. You're not positive about that, but you don't have a specific recollection of that being in the 90s.

No. Okay. I can date it for you, I think. But I can't give you that. That's okay. That's fine. So with respect to, and we'll take a break in a minute to get some food, but just with respect to Mr. With respect to the individuals you just talked about,

so again, focus on the 90s. And so the people that I'm talking about right now, and we might add some names later, so we're talking about the clients that he work with, which you've mentioned several of. And I know that that wasn't exhaustive, but you've mentioned several of them. And then the kind of what I called famous,

his friends, but the prominent individuals that were at his life in the 90s, does any stick out in your mind as having received massages? All of them. Henry Roski received a massage. And why does that stick out in your memory? Because

I saw him in a bathrobe at 71st Street and he had received a massage. He told me. And do you know whether that, whether the masseuse was naked during that massage? I wouldn't have any idea. Do you know whether he... I doubt it.

He was like in his 80s. I doubted he was like in his 80s. Okay, so, but do you know... No, he was saying his age. Oh, Minsky. Say it again? Minsky was another person. Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton never received a massage?

I don't believe he did. And what makes you say you don't believe he did? Well, because I don't... So, that's a good question. The time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together, The only times, I believe, well, obviously they traveled. There was that, you know, became, they went on the plane 26 times, or whatever. That would be one journey.

So they spent time on the plane together, and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the plane. So that would have been the only time that I think that President Clinton could have even received a massage, and he didn't, because I was there. And you mentioned that early, in the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned President Trump in the early 90s. Yes. What did you observe as far as President Trump and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein? Well, I just want to say for my relationship with President Trump, relationship's a big word,

but I just want to say that I met him, what I believe I may have, because of my father in the 90s. Yep. So my father liked him very much, and he really liked his wife as well because they were both Czechos Vacuum. and as far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me, and I just want to say that I find, I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the president now, and I like him, and I've always liked him. So that is the sum of substance of my entire relationship with him. What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him?

I don't know how they met, and I don't know how they became friends. I certainly saw them together, and I remember the few times I observed them together that they were friendly. I mean, they were friendly. Was that in social settings, or was that in private settings? I believe I only ever saw them in social settings. I don't recall any private settings. Did you ever, have you ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach? I have.

In what time period are you thinking about when you say yes? I don't remember when the president purchased Mar-a-Lago, so whenever it turned into a park. club. I went there and I was, loved going there. Did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein? Mostly alone. Many times I went there was for an event, maybe once or twice. And do you know with Mr. Epstein ever went there? I believe he did, but again, we really were, he didn't take me with him all the time, so he would go and, oh, right. He never, I, he never, I, he never, I, never, well, he did from time to time, but he would go alone.

I think he would maybe go himself to the spot. I certainly did. Did you ever observe President Trump received a massage? Never. Did you ever observe? You said that you, I mean, have you seen,

there's photographs, public photographs of Mr. Epstein and President Trump together? Yes. And there's photographs of, I think you're you're in some of the photographs as well. Those all appear to be social settings.

Yes. That's my memory. There was social settings. I don't know. Epstein's, if he had, whatever the nature of the president's friendship, if you will, however you want to define that with Epstein,

I was never witnessed. I think they were friendly, like people are in social settings. I don't think they were close friends, or I certainly never witnessed the president in, I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting.

I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects. When's the last time you think you saw in person, President Trump? It's been a long time. probably not, sometime in the beginning, mid-2000s maybe, and it would only have been a social setting, as far as I recall. And did you ever hear Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world? Absolutely never, in any context.

Do you know whether masseuses from Marilago spa ended up giving massages to private massages to Mr. Epstein? I'm not asking what you may have read, but at the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know whether that's true? I don't recall.

Is it possible, yes. But I don't remember that. So I don't want to, I don't recall that, but it's possible. Do you have recollection of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago spa to go give a private massage to Mr. Robson? I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I remember. I can't ever recollect doing that. Okay, so what I think we should do now, it's about 12.15. We'll take a break, and we will come back in a little bit.