American court hearing recordings and interviews - Ghislaine Maxwell interview 7/24/2025. Day 1. Part 5. (from www.justice.gov/maxwell-interview)

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

--

I definitely witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behaviour and a modification, if you will, where in the past, in the early 90s, I don't remember travelling so much with other people, whether there'd be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now he started to travel with more, always a masseuse, whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or always an instructor, there was now starting to be always an individual or a friend or whatever. There's always a, like, maybe the word would be entourage. But these were always people in their 20s, late 20s, early 30s, as my memory sees it, as I observed that time.

and he tasked me with finding a local masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes, even though I say he would always travel with an entourage, sometimes he didn't, and he wanted to have a massage locally. So I visited the spas that were local in St. Thomas and in St. John. And if I met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas. it's not exactly, you know, so, and I did find a couple of people who would come, so that's how they came. Because also it was a schlep, so if you had somebody who came, it would be, you'd have to, you know, boat ride and several hours.

It wasn't just, it's not like arriving with your massage tape and stuff, so there was that. So I did do that. So did, over the years, males also give them? massages, Mr. Epstein? Yes. I did say, I don't think, at the beginning, definitely, and I would say towards sort of, again, late 90s, I don't remember any men.

They were at the beginning, I think, towards the late 90s, I kind of don't think of any men, I only think of women. Did you, you talk about entourage flying, right now we're talking about to the island. did you observe any sexual, I was going to say misconc, but any sex at all whatsoever on the plane?

Never on the plane. Was there a part of the plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage or whatever? Okay, so that's a good question. So there were two planes. So there was a Gulfstream, that's an open plan. So, anything, I mean, there was a sofa that turned into a bed, and he did sleep on that. And then, but in the Boeing, which he flew on a lot, there was, his area could be closed off with a door.

And behind that door, there would be, there was a bedroom and an office. So if that door was shut, you wouldn't see it. But do you, so if you never, so, but you never observed Mr. Epstein and Caging and sat, or getting a massage with somebody with where the masseuse was not clothed on the plane? I can't say that. I might have. I definitely might have either both in the Gulfstream or in the... I'm sure I did, but it's not.

I can't... That's fair. Okay. I'm absolutely sure I did. I must have because he was so obsessive of someone rubbing his feet or just... When you ask me about massages, I just want to be clear, I generally, what I think over that is somebody on a massage table. But other people might think of it of something different.

You know, you could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder. I saw that all the time. That I did. But that's separate from being on a massage table. Again, I know what we're talking about, a decade-long period, but during the period we're talking about, in a seven-day week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage? In the 90s.

when we're talking, he would get one every day. I think as that time progressed, he would get one maybe twice a day. I do want to say that there was maybe a reason that things altered or morphed or progressed. And it is maybe part of the reason also that he and I, he and I, he and I, um, it is maybe part of the reason also that I, he and I, um, it is maybe part of the reason. relationship or however somebody wants to call it altered. And he started doing testosterone, and that altered his character. And I believe that started in the late 90s. And I believe that the FBI has his medical records, and you may see that on his medical records.

So you believe that he, started taking testosterone in the 90s, and when you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it wanted to have made him get more massages, or that was just one part of what changed about him? Well, he became more aggressive. Nice. And I think that he may be, well,

now I'm just imagining that the testosterone altered his desires or something. And so given what you've said the past couple hours about his kind of progression or change, let's focus on that time period. So the more towards the late 90s, 96, 97, 8, when you've said that he changed. Did you know flat out that he was having sex or otherwise? some sort of sexual conduct with masseuses regularly? Flat out, no, I denied that.

I couldn't imagine that he would, but I think, looking back now, that... I did not. But I started to suspect that he was not faithful. Seems ludicrous. But if... Look, if he's flying from Palm Beach to St. Thomas, or if he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to New York or even in Palm Beach,

and there's young women putting aside whether they're under the age of 18 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple massuses, multiple massages on some days. You're interacting with the masseuses constantly. Or maybe that's not right. That's not right. Let me take back what I just said. Ignore that part. But you understand that he's getting massages every day.

multiple times today. By the late 90s, it's all women, presumably, some of them are new, but they're also repeat masseuses. What did you, I mean, you had to know at that point that there was something going on beyond just he really needed to get massaged. Very fair question. Those two things. The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s, and she was with him all the time. And I'm like, married as well. Yeah. And I'm square.

And it never occurred, well, I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he would be having relations. And he was with her, that was the person he had. You've finally broken loose from work. Three friends, one tea time, and then the text.

Honey, there's water in the basement. Not exactly how you pictured your Saturday. That's when you call us. Cincinnati Insurance. We always answer the call because real protection means showing up, even when things are in the rough. Cincinnati Insurance, let us make your bad day better.

Find an agent at CINFIN.com. Most massages, yoga, and that with at that time, in the 90s period. The second thing is that he told me he didn't, he had to fully having an erection. and I believed him when you said he said that you mean he regularly told you that like you when I first

because when I didn't have sex with him after the first time and it took so I asked him was it me and he told me it was him and I never

up until this moment in my life I'm not stupid I'm very bright I've had an excellent education I traveled all over the I had had boyfriends, but I had never met or understood that somebody could be so, would lie to me about, it never occurred to me. I didn't have a frame of context within my life experience where somebody would be so manipulative and devious with me.

I just, and plus I just didn't have, and I was happy not to have X because I have a condition that doesn't lend itself to that. Does, when you learn, so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007 and nine time period and he's arrested in charge and there's all kinds of press around his purported contact, at that point, did you? at that point did you accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make sense at that point? When you're reading about women who claimed that they had been abused,

even underage, and at that point, did you think to yourself, well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about it or no? First of all, I didn't, that's, I only read what was in the newspapers. I didn't have any other thing, and I'm embarrassed to say, I didn't believe it. Okay. Right. I mean, you didn't believe that,

the accusations were true at the time. So let's... And sorry, I need to say, even if they were true, I believe that he was duped and he didn't know that they were, whatever it was in the papers at that time, whether they said that they were 17 or had. I didn't, it didn't register. Because along with all of those, well, not in 2006,

but later when the more salacious and other allegations came out, I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief that the rest was not true. Let me ask you a question about the age of the masseuses over the years. I think in my mind there's a difference between you knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you knowing that Mr. Epstein, you know, sexually abused the underage person or made her strip or something like that? Meaning, and I want to understand whether you believe that nobody that came to give massages, none of the women were under 18, or that you didn't focus on their age, but you were more focused on whether any underage woman was abused by him.

I think it's better to answer this question with corroborating evidence and then go back and explain so that I frame your understanding of what I'm saying. My understanding is that in 2008, they had interviewed 44 women, let's say, around that number. You have to understand, not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me in a single report. And it's not because they didn't mention me in the report because they never met me.

They never saw me and they never interacted with me. So to go back to your question, it's not that I thought one way or another. It's that I didn't see them. Okay. I see. Okay. Does that? Yeah, yeah.

That's helpful. When I say not one, not one single one of those reports talks about me. And I just want to clarify exactly because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls was one of the witnesses in my trial, specifically. To use her own testimony so that you don't have to hear my point of view, it's better. It comes from her own words, and that way there's no second guessing whether what I'm not. saying. She said that recruited her,

Biongne brought her, and B. B. B. B. Trained her. Those are own words. That you didn't know. Oh, yeah. Sorry, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. I really do have some

slow cognition issues. So she says, she testifies that it was that recruited her and trained. her and not you. So wait, so then in her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman with short dark hair at the house, which then is used as evidence that that person was myself. But the maid lady who helped keep the house, John's, Alessie's wife, and with an

accent, I believe she said. John Alessie's wife had short dark hair and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find, and you can ask yourselves this. I mean, I've obviously modified my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm British. I've been brought up with a very strong British accent, and I don't believe there's American on planet Earth that doesn't recognize this to be British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't know. But it's not some random accent. now the Hispanic maybe okay that was John's wife that she's not me and I'd like to point out further how you potentially her own through her own words she identical why don't we why don't we stop there and then ask the next question so okay so it's

so just and look I want to I want to try to I think probably tomorrow will I want to talk more about kind of the evidence against you and how to address that. So that's, no, no, don't apologize. So that's helpful, but I don't, I don't want you to be burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best you can. So I don't want you to be burdened by what people said at trial or what you know the press says about you. I just thought it was illustrative when you asked the question. It was.

It was. It was. I did not. I absolutely have no memory at any, no, no, I'm leaving. separate to this, obviously. So that's a separate story. I'm not going to pretend. Well, we'll get to go ahead. But in the terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to determine what you're calling that, I have no memory, no active, anything of having seen anybody that resembles a young, a child, let's call it what it is, at that house giving him a massage

at all. It's not even like I did this. It's an at all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me either, including. Did, um, and when you say that house. Oh, sorry, Palm Beach.

You know, I understand what you mean, but does the same memory or lack there I've applied to, on planes in New Mexico, in New York, Well, with some other important caveats. Well, on that, Bajolin, Jane in my trial,

was clearly underage, clearly a child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach. And I only saw her with her mother. The other person was clearly also not an adult or even clothing, I believe. I remember her now.

That would be the only two. three, whatever that is. So, did you ever know Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source or just generally with FBI agents? No. Do you think if he had done that, you would have known, like he would have told you something like that? Like if I said to you, Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say, that's crazy

know he wasn't or maybe he was, I would, he wouldn't have told me that anyway. You've finally broken loose from work. Three friends, one tea time, and then the text. Honey, there's water in the basement. Not exactly how you pictured your Saturday. That's when you call us, Cincinnati Insurance. We always answer the call because real protection means showing up, even when things are in the rough.

Cincinnati Insurance. Let us make your bad day better. Find an agent at CINFIN.com. Two answers for that. I think if he was for real, I think he would have bragged about it to me as a show off, because he could be a show off. And if he wasn't,

he might have dropped it like he was cool. And I don't think I don't remember him doing either. Now, with again the caveat that in his, before I met him, finding money, I think he may have suggested that there were some people who helped him, but that's the only context that I recall that in. What do you mean by that? When you said finding money, what do you mean?

Well, his business where he, remember I told you, I think in that context, he showed me a photograph that he, that he had with some African warlords or something that he told me. I don't remember if that's what I interpreted, that kind of thing, or whether it was something like that. That's the only actual active memory I have of something nefarious. I don't even know if it was nefarious, but covert, I suppose, would be the word. And what about any other intelligence agency that the CIA

or defense intelligence or any other law enforcement agency. Okay. I don't think so. I think that I don't remember anything like that. I just don't think he had the where we all, and I think that whole aspect of that is, can I use a bad word? Yes. Yes.

Bullshit. Okay. And what do you, you think is bullshit meaning, what do you mean? would you have known if he was would he have been bragging to you would he have been saying these things I think he was because I think I think that

I think one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my family connections and why he liked other people was because they were cool or whatever and I think that certainly early when I met him he would have tried to impress me or tried to show off if you will like he was that guy, you know, and he wasn't that guy.

And so, and I think that he would have tried to bullshit me, and he didn't. So I think it's, well, he may try to bullshit me, but not. Right. Sorry. So I want to just shift for a few minutes to talk about post-2000, 2000, to kind of when your relationship changed over the years with him. Did there come a time when he misrepresenting, did meet members of the royal family yes um when was that so I need to go back because I

think I may have misspoke well I didn't miss speak but I read something that I had forgotten before I met Epstein he lived in London for a period of time I don't know for how long and he met and knew some truly fancy people like people high society people that included Princess Diana Anna's best friend. Her name was Rosa Moncton and Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson, who's a famous journalist. Actually, he's a very well-known journalist. And when I, and he had, he was friends with the bearings, bearings bank, and he had like, sort of, that. That was, you're talking about before he met me. Before, so in the 80s. Yes. He was dating Eva Anderson, Miss Sweden, I think, I don't

know when she became Miss Sweden. earlier when you said that he met them later, you think he may have met some members of the royal family or certainly British high society. I don't know about the royal family, but certainly high society. And the reason why I know this is

because sometimes this is a documentable I think, docu-whatever. There's a photograph that can give you the date because I don't remember what the date is of this. So there's something that will peg whatever this date is. I don't remember when that

is. Epstein went to London without me. It often went everywhere without me, but he was in London without me, which was decently unusual because London's my hometown, but anyway, he went without me, and he went to a big event in, I think it was in the, anyway, it was a big event. It's on, it's on, it's on the news, it's like, there's photographs of it, and he, I don't know if he sat with Diana or he met Diana, or he either he met her. I don't know, but this, I believe, was organized by Rosa. And so there's, I don't know if she was being set up as a date for him maybe, because she, I don't, I don't speak bad of Diana, but I'm not going to do it. Okay, so that was pre-meeting you.

No, that was, when that event happened when we were. Oh, okay, that was never. No, it's when we were, I'm not going to say together, but how about this, when I was his employee. Okay. So now moving back to the 2000s, there come a time when, um, Mr. Epstein met Prince Andrew? Yes. And others in the royal family

or just Prince Andrew, as far as you know? So, as much as I can piece it together. First of all, let's just state, I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth.

Start with that. So now I'm going to tell you how he did actually meet him. So if you find me that photograph, if I can date that time when he met Princess Diana at that event. And based on that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post that event, because I haven't looked it up, and I've never bothered to check. So, Lynn Forrester, who was a client or some type of client, or I think she actually tried to date him, or might have dated him, for the record.

She was in... Do you want to ask me something? No, no, go ahead. Okay. She was, she had a house, or she rented a house in the vineyard. I think it was in the vineyard or Nantakit. I can't remember now which one it was. It was one of those.

Sorry, the Nantakeet or the vineyard. And invited Epstein to go, and I believe that's when he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event, he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein and had arranged with Lynn or I.

I don't know. I don't know now. I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met Andrew at there. And I'm not holding you to an exact date, but when approximately was that? Well, we can date it from that picture, if you find me the picture. But you know, without looking at a photo in your mind, approximately when was that? I want to say it was 2000, 2000, no, probably 2001, 2002. Probably 2000s. Yes.

And I think it was actually, Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through you. I think that's true. So, well... It's true that Andrews said that. No, I'm sure it's true. Because I'm English, and my close friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew. and I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew before but certainly we were friendly and certainly his best friends

some of them very very close with me and I think that my friendship me being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey Moore like trust him or I think that's maybe in dispute that you're, that you kind of had a role in getting together. You're just saying, you didn't say, Prince, here's Jeffrey. I would never have introduced them. It would never have

occurred to me to introduce them. I couldn't imagine them being very good. Two, two, chalk and cheeses would never, I mean, for real, there's nothing there to connect them. So, he met Prince Andrew, and then he had a really big relationship. I don't, I don't like that word. It sounds funky. They had a friend. acquaintanceship. Thank you. And through Sarah, actually.

I think Sarah is the one that pushed that. And they met and hung out. I want to say two or three times that had nothing to do with me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew. I wasn't in touch with him. And I know this because I was annoyed. And I felt left out. and I felt

that it disrespected and I was like this is weird I couldn't even imagine Epstein and Andrew together and I thought that Sarah was trying to put the moves on Jeffrey if I'm being honest and I thought the whole thing was annoying

So what happened with their relationship putting aside the publicity around Prince Andrew's purported relationship with what happened as far as you know with Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship from the times you just described

and get together. After that at some point Jeffrey told me, Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to organize the whole thing. That's classic by the way, classic Epstein. Of course if someone

was like, alright, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make sure that Andrew was taking care of and that he was comfortable he had whatever he needed. and yada yada yada and i'm like well am i going to meet him or you're just going to have me do all the job and he said well you know you can come and say hello right wow that's so nice of you for real because you have to understand like i don't know if i told you this before but i did not have the keys

to say i was not allowed to go to his house unless i was summoned or told i was not allowed to answer his phones we can go there but anyway so this we can tell us a bit of this sort of point perhaps and of course the minute we got together I was like yay hi and then it was so nice because the the difference of being in England with Prince Andrew versus being in New York without all the bullshit was insane and our friendship just like lit up like this because most of all we knew that I'm safe. I mean, safe as in I'm not, you know, Nigel Dempster

or taking a page. Not in a million years, would I do something so gross? And we honestly go on like a house off. I really liked him a lot. And he's, it was so nice. And we just became really, really good friends.

Much more so than when we were in London, if I'm honest. And then with respect to Mbich and Prince Andrew, What do you know about that relationship? Would you like to ask that again? Relationships, a big word. Like I said, I don't like the word. Let's just start that.

Okay, so I have read, I just want to piece together. But don't say, before you say what you read, because that's one of the problems is that we're all kind of, well-informed by, like, all the publicity and information around what everybody else has said, but what do you, what do you think? Or what did you see? what's an even bigger word than bullshit okay

why well go ahead just but finish that thought why do you think that I'm going to tell you right now I'm so happy to tell you I'm like excited I'm beyond excited okay so there's gonna make sure of what I've actually seen and know from the evidence

and versus what it's done together I'm impossible for me at this point to separate everything but I'll tell you what I know versus what I saw and what I physically happen here but it's helpful for you to know. So the allegation, I have to go with the allegation. The allegation was that at my house in London in March,

whatever that was, 2001, I believe, we went to London especially so that the B. B.S. I could have a relationship with Prince Andrew, and she was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose. Okay. And that she then... got in my bathroom, in my house in London, and had sex-sexual relations with him, and then went into my guest room and had full-blown sex, and then left my house.

Oh, he left, and she fell used and disgusted. And a photograph was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. That is what is the story. Oh, and then after that she met him several other times, but we'll come to that. This is where it will allegedly start. went to Tram. Oh, right, right, right. We went to a nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner, right? We went to dinner and then to Tram. Okay, so the first thing about that weekend, that specific weekend, was that it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country. And I have some corroborating

evidence for that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. So that takes care of the reason why, one of the reasons why her story doesn't hold water. The second reason why, so by the way, when I say that, my mum turned 80th for actual weekends, was her birthdays on March the 11th. And the reason why I went to London, and I presume, but this I don't remember, is why when we were,

so the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto, who is the decorator for the island. and for New York as well. And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went via the Alhambra. And it was also for New Mexico. So there's architectural pieces that contain.

And that was the basis of that trip. And I suspect now that that trip was, planned all around the fact that I had to be in, wanted to be in, I was going to be in London, no matter what, for my mum's 80th birthday, at my brother's house in the country, which is approximately an hour outside of London, an hour and a half, an hour and a half outside of London, and my brother's home. And we all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday celebration on the Sunday, and then we left. So that's that. second reason why probably maybe even the more important reason than my mum's birthday that I

think it's absolute rubbish is that Prince Andrew the idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house that's the size of this room is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me as the man or what I just can't I can't even know is there any way that it could have happened no okay describe the physical plan oh the physical so the my house was tiny I think it's 900 square feet in total well maybe that's that right maybe maybe nine it's on it is on three floors however so you're talking about a little it's a jewel it used to be a stable for a horse it was the stables for the big houses it was the there was the little poor man's home behind the Richmond. It's a jewel. It was a gorgeous little place, but it is the size of a nut.

If you make a noise, let's say a little burp or something, you don't want it. You'd hear it. It just, where she says that they had relations in a bathroom, I, first of all, the bath is an old Victorian bath. I'm quite, quite small. tight for me. I put my brother in there to see what would happen. It looks like oblivit, which is a sausage in a layer very tight, tight skin. So her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub, that would work. The bathroom itself is so small, you can't lie flat on the floor, so it couldn't happen on the floor because you physically, physically can't. This bathroom is too small to even be on the floor. And then the kicker of all kickers is that because the bathroom was so

more, I decorated it to try and make it look huge, which meant that I put mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun about being in there is that if you stood in the bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you, like you do if you were in... A fun house. Yeah, Alice in Wonderland, or one of those things that you would see yourself going stretching everything. And the image, if you said you were, let's say you were, let's say the, let's say the... She could say she was having sex with 5,000 generations of the royal family because that's how far back you could see yourself. There is no way in God's Green Earth,

if that had taken place that this is something that you would miss, because you couldn't miss it. If you were standing there now, you'd see the whole of the FBI is, the whole Department of Justice standing behind you. It's like, no. Did you... Let me just also explain where the tap was in the bathtub.

Okay, well, it's an old... I had a tap. So if you were in the tub, this was the tub, my tat would be here. I think, hmm, no. So you think it's kind of logistically and physically not something that could have happened. Well, there's that. And there's just, Andrew, he's so English. He's so, he had a tie on.

Do you think there's any way it could have happened? Absolutely, on no way, no-how, absolutely not. Wait, I haven't finished. So, oh, no, no, no. Oh, sorry. Go, go, go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. Can I finish? When all this nonsense fit place where this whole story with the picture and the this and that this bullshit, I believe that this whole thing was manufactured. And I can point you to some potentially corroborating evidence of this. So when she gave the photograph to the FBI in Australia...

Just to be clear, the photographic talk about the famous one where... I have a image of it here. Prince Andrews holding the... And you're in the background. The fake. Just to be clear. So, on the back of that, and this is in the discovery by the... way, I don't know if it's in, I don't know which discovery I saw it in now, but this is it,

she wrote, she wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken in January of 2000 and, in 2000 or 2001, I don't remember. So now, in her handwriting that she's giving the FBI this picture, suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her writing it's January to March? It's because it's the only one that fit with the flight logs that when she's, you know, could be in London and this two place. The second thing is that, oh, I'm so excited to tell you this, there is a journalist. I know you guys are quite all. The fake news is at work here. So there's a journalist called Sharon Churcher. There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards. These two, and there is a

Southern District of Florida prosecutor called Villafana. I would very much, look forward to showing you the relationship between these three parties that created that story. Why? Well, put aside the relationship, why do you think they created that story? I believe that story was created for the purposes of, well, there are multiple. The first one is financial. The second one is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one was for the serialization, both of her book and in the papers, for the story to attack the family. So I think when you were just asked about the photo,

you said you actually thought the photo was fake, Do you think it was just misdated or do you think it's literally a fake photo? I believe it's literally a fake photo. Why do you think that? Well, first of all, I don't remember it. We'll start. But the outfit I'm wearing is the outfit from my mom's birthday party. So, but you don't have any...

Do you dispute that they met each other? Do you know whether they've met each other? I do not know that they met. Okay, so you not only, so you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even positive they actually ever met each other. I know.

So you don't have a specific recollection of kind of being at an event or a party or your apartment, or you know, you're flat Munden with Prince Andrew and... Absolutely. She doesn't know one way or the other. I understand that.

I want you know that. The reason why, I don't have any memory of that. So that's not the issue. The issue is, could Andrew who've come to the house to see me or see Epstein and say hi and she had been there? Yes, I can't say that that hadn't happened. But what I can absolutely categorically say is that I never, at any time, said Andrew up to have relations with her or any other human being ever. and I can categorically state

that her characterization of whatever may or may not have habit physically would just know and plus I was in the country so all of that's just not conceivable. Did you attend social parties over... And again, I really now am focused on 2000 plus so not the early years.

where Mr. Epstein would host the party or be a big part of the hosting of the party, and some or many of the young women who were masseuses would be invited to the party as guests or as entertainment? I certainly went to his house when he would have people who would be there that were, I call them, the way I would think of it and I would characterize it were his entourage. That's how I thought about it. And that certainly was in the later 2000s, yes. Did you attend any weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, I'm mostly focused on post-2000,

but if there's something that comes in mind in the 90s, that's fine as well. A wedding? Weddings. With Epstein? I don't think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him. Do you know, so you don't remember, you didn't attend President Clinton's daughter's wedding? I did.

Chelsea Clinton's, but that wasn't with Mr. Rupstein. No, it was with Ted Waite, my boyfriend. Say it again? With Ted Waite, my boyfriend. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Repstein was at that wedding? He was not. Okay.

And how did you, did you have a relationship, well, Why did you get invited that wedding? Because Ted and Clinton were very close. And how were you close to them? What was the reason you were close to them? I met President Clinton. First of all, I went to the White House with Epstein once. I think it was for a historical, like one of those benefits.

And I met the president then, but like a thousand other people shook his hand. Then after that, I had a very, very, very. a good friend of mine that was known to be the mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine, and Philip and the president were very good friends. And Philip was a very, and I were very good friends, and so I actually was introduced to the president post his coming out of the White House and became friendly with him because of Philip Levine. Because of what?

Philip Levine. there's some names that have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I just want to ask you if you know about Pierce Morgan Is friendly with who? With Mr. Epstein

I have no idea. I doubt it. Yeah, there's no trick question. I'm not suggesting that I know the answer to it I'm generally just asking. Well, I would be astonished. I can't imagine they'd have anything in common either. How about... Were you friends with Pierce Morgan? I've met him.

I've met him. I met him at an event in Manhattan. I can't remember. More recently, so probably in 2012, something in that. And we had a very nice conversation. So I remember that. I remember thinking... I'd never...

I don't remember if I'd ever met him before, but I remember thinking how nice. what I was surprised. So I liked him. What can I tell you? So that's the only one, that's any memory you have of that. I'm not sure if that's correct,

but that's what I think. I don't have a correct or incorrect. No, I just want to tell the truth. I just want to try and. No, no. But I want you to believe me, because I mean this. There is so much information

in the public sphere about you and Mr. Epstein and others around, and some of it is definitely true. and some of it is definitely false. So when I ask a question, if I think that you're not being honest or that you're missing something,

it's isn't got you. I'll say that to you. Did you ever meet JFK Jr? I'm sorry? Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? Yes. When was that? I met him at Andrew Cuomo's wedding.

No. Kerry, Carrie's wedding. He did Carrie Mary. Andrew Quarman? Yes. Okay. Andrew Khrimus went in. When would that have been approximately?

1990. So before? 1999. I don't, something like that. Would that have been before you met Mr. Epstein? Yes. Did you have any sort of professional or social relationship with Jonathan Jr.? I fancied him.

You what? I thought he was very attractive. Oh, you fancy. Sorry. Besides him, finding him attractive and fancying him, Did you have any sort of, you know, social relationship with him? I mean, we knew each other, and I thought he was wonderful and fun, and I enjoyed meeting him, but we went out, I wanted to say we had a dinner or two, but I was very excited, but that was it.

And then Alan Dershowitz? I, what's the question with Alan? Do you say it again? What's the question? Do you know, do you know Mr. Dershowitz? Do you know whether he knew Mr. Repsstein? Do you know the nature of their... relationship. I definitely do know Alan. I'm just trying to remember if I knew him. I'm trying to remember how I met him. I met him separate from Mexico. I don't remember. So that I have no recollection. I remember. I know that he was Epstein's lawyer. I don't know if they had any relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I do. Actually. I think they met the same.

Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forresten, I think that's what happened. I think that's it. And why do you think that? Because I just put it in my head. Okay. And did you you, you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's

attorney, do you know whether they also socialized? So my personal memory of when I, remember two, I have two distinct memories with Alan. One is, with him and his wife at the island and I absolutely remember that and I remember I think going to his house in Boston if he had a house in Boston

that's only two times I remember did you ever observe mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with young women around mr. Epstein did you ever hear anybody didn't ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate absolutely not. Did you know one way or the other whether Mr. Dersh was ever got a massage at the island or any locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein? I don't remember anything about him ever getting a massage. I don't ever have any record. I don't believe I ever even swim in a bathroom. I have no knowledge of that. I'm jumping around a little bit. You mentioned, I think, briefly, but the Terramar project?

Yes. What is that? I founded Terramar in, the idea of Terramar came, I think, in 2010. So I want to just explain Terramar a little bit. So Ted and I bought a boat. And its basis of the boat was to do explorations and see...

sea exploratory stuff. This really started because I have and have had since I was a child a love of the ocean and everything aquatic and I've always been, I'm nervous about the state of the ocean. When Ted and I, we worked with National Geographic and we did exploratory work and we did the most exciting, we did many exciting things, but one of the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for Amelia Earhart twice. I did two expeditions to look from Amelia Earhart as an example of an exploration that we did. And he had a foundation for the ocean and we worked with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole. We did amazing. things. We bought, he bought the Remus 6,000, so when the plane went missing, the plane that went

was Air France from Brazil to Paris and went down. It was the Remus 6,000 that found that plane. It was one of those deep sea under-exploits. Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I just, one of the things I did not want to give up was my love of the ocean and everything that we did. And the genesis of Terramar came from that. So Terramar, I just, obviously means land, sea. And the story of the ocean is that Earth really shouldn't be called Earth. It should be called Ocean because three quarters is the ocean.

And so I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted because it was a bit awkward between us. And so he took all the part of the ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles. And so I decided I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was outside of national borders, Tehramara. And that's how that, that's the genesis of Terminal. So what was the time period of that?

That, I think, after I broke up with Ted, so 2010-11 is when it started, and then I ran it all the way up until whenever the Epstein drama struck, and then I just shut it down, not, I shut it down because I didn't want what was happening to hurt any, the Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the, I just couldn't, let everything be hurt by what was happening to me. Do you know Jean-Luc Brunel? Yes. How do you know?

I met him. So when I told you I was working for the European for my dad, and I was in charge. So back in like 90, early 90s? Yeah. And I was running a magazine. One of the things in the magazine is fashion. And so I was going to some fashion shows.

shows and I was looking for fashion sponsorship. And in fact, when I came to America, one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron Pelman at Revlon, who was great. And I met Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that, but socially not. Did Mr. Epstein know him as well? Did you later learn whether they knew each other? I'm not sure. I, I, I, I don't, he would have, Epstein had his own fashion situation, so he would have, I, I don't, he didn't meet Chambu through me. Did you ever observe them together over the years? Absolutely, yeah, I saw them many times together. Did, did he, um, visit the island?

Yes. Yes. Yeah, he went everywhere. I saw him in every place. Did, do you ever observe him getting a massage? Or do you ever know what they got a massage? didn't observe it personally? You don't remember?

I don't know. I mean, I don't. I never, I have no conscious memory of Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did, but I never, I don't see it. How about Mr. Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein? What would you like to know? Do you know him? Yes. How do you know him?

Like, I guess, when I say how do you know him, is a relation you had kind of separate from Mr. Epstein, or did you guys, did you meet him through Mr. Epstein? I wouldn't say I had any type of relationship with Harvey Weinstein in any context. Socially I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at and also his wife was English, like that, Georgina. And I was friendly also would be a big word, more acquaintance,

so we would see each other and I would go to Miramax events. There was a couple of people who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with, his primary producer, his name is Merrill Poster I was friendly with, and yeah. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with Mr. Weinstein? He did. Did they socialize together at the island or in Palm Beach or New Mexico? I never saw Harvey at any of Epstein's house. So socialized, I don't know that they were friends.

I mean, I can't see them together either. I mean literally, but I know that they certainly do that. I would imagine, and in fact I think I have a memory, but I can't, that when Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business called, I can't remember what his business is called. Maybe he went there because Epstein was good at raising money. I just don't know. But I never saw them.

I don't recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties. Let's just go a few more minutes and take a break, kind of, it's after lunch. So do you, we talked several hours ago about your father and his business a little bit. After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family business, that you know of? Absolutely not. In any respect, first of all, there was no family business left. I'd start with that problem. And the second one is my family didn't like him very much.

and they were busy dealing with their own problems and there was no relationship whatsoever. I mean my my mom and he got along quite well that was it but that was she's an old lady he was nice to her we're repeat we're now we're being a little repetitive but you're confident that before you met mr. Epstein he didn't know your father and so there's no he wouldn't have done business with your father's companies in the 80s either absolutely I'm a hundred percent sure of that. I never met him, I never saw him, I never heard his name.

No, nothing. So, there's been a lot of conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained like a list of people, like a book of famous people that he knew. like a, it's called a black book or a client list or a list. Did you know the existence of any such list? There is no list. We'll start with that. The genesis of that story I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception

if that is what you're interested in. Well, first, you know, to be short, there is no list, there's no client list, nothing like that. No, there is nothing like that. that I'm obviously yeah okay so you say you think you know that Genesis so go ahead tell us I'd like you to know that I have brought some supporting corroborative evidence we'll tell me what it is too and we'll get the crop ratio okay is this is this do you want to take a break here because this is a long story yeah let's take a break yeah yeah let's take a break all right the time is 203 and we're going to take a break right now