American court hearing recordings and interviews - Ghislaine Maxwell interview 7/24/2025. Day 1. Part 7. (from www.justice.gov/maxwell-interview)

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

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We are continuing with the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The time is now 3.10 p.m. Thursday, July 24th. My colleagues alerted me to a couple questions. I think I may have forgotten to ask you. One is, well, we talked a few minutes ago about this birthday book that they're been press about. I understand you don't remember anything with President Trump or a lot about the book anyway.

Do you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that? I do not. And do you remember, would you have been the one to do that or would somebody else, would somebody else have done that? I did ask some people. I don't remember Mr. Trump, I don't remember who I did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself directly. Okay. So it could have happened that way. if it happened at all. You mentioned Ehud Barak.

Yes. What was his involvement? This would have been in the later 2000s, so I do not know how they met, but I do know that they, I don't know if friendly would be the right word. I don't know that, but I know that they saw each other.

And only because my father, you know, anything that touches Israel or the state of Israel I'm always interested in because my father loved Israel and so I pay attention to it. And we have ties to Israel. When you said it was later, though... Ties meaning friends and family, relations. Was the permanent, it was Ms. Brock or Prince Brock. Do you know what nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?

I don't. Do you know, were you ever with them together? I think I met, I have a memory of meeting, a hood, but I don't know if he was with Epstein or I don't remember. I just know that I did see him and I'm trying, struggling to remember the context around it. But if I, I'm sure it happened, but it must have been very brief because I don't have any serious memory of it, any, like, deep memory of it. And maybe this is obviously.

And maybe it comes also because I've read it in the press. that may be something that brought it to my memory. So that's also, I mean, I'm also, I think the press has been very contaminating, so I just, it's hard sometimes to separate those stories from your memory, sometimes. Do you know a British gymnast by the name of Heather Mann? Yes.

Did she... I didn't know she was a gymnast. Oh, okay. I'm reading something that says she was a gymnast, but please don't assume that that's correct. based upon my words. Did she ever travel with you and or Mr. Epstein?

Yeah, she did actually. I think that she might have been one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point. Again, I know we're talking about time periods that are vast. What time period would that have been? Like after you,

since 2000? I want to say, it could be the 90s, I don't know. But I mean, listen, there are people that pop out of the woodwork all the time. I just saw one on TV. saying she was his girlfriend in 93 and 94. He obviously was very busy.

Where's she's like? Well, there's that. Did someone named Mark Middleton? Yes, I remember him. He was in the Mr. Clinton's administration, President Clinton's administration, I think. And how do you know him? Well, I met him, and I met him through Mr. Epstein. And, was he, from what you observe, was he a friend or business acquaintance of Mr. Epstein?

I mean, I only saw him a handful of times, but I did see him with him. I mean, he seemed friendly. I don't know if I would characterize. I mean, having seen him briefly, I don't know how to characterize that. Do you know whether he flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the island? Do you know anything about that, or their relationship as it relates to that? I never, I don't have any recollection of seeing McMillton at the island.

How about former US Senator George Mitchell? Yeah, I do remember George. What do you remember about him? I traveled with him. We went to, the most memorable day I went to, well, I was friendly with his wife, I started with that, with Heather, and Heather was in New York, so I hung out with her a few times. We had to know this. I were just friendly, I would say.

Separately from her husband. I met with her husband. I met Heather through her husband, but we became friends. You became friends with Heather. Yes. Was Mr. Epstein friends with Mr. Mitchell? Yes. Did they travel together besides New York?

Did they travel to the island or to New Mexico? I don't remember George Ever at that island, but the most memorable check I do recall with Senator was to Italy. Was to where? To Italy. Ah, okay. We went to Rome. As the four of you, so Heather and Mr. Mitchell and you and Mr. Epstein?

That's my recollection. And what were you there for? Well, the most memorable aspect of that trip, so we went to the Vatican. It was extraordinary. The most extraordinary thing was going to the archives and holding Henry the 8's document to the Pope asking his divorce. give force. Do you know the former President of Columbia, Andres Pastrana? Yes.

How do you know him? I met Andres Pastrana in a pub in Dublin. Did he travel with Miss Rapstein that you know? I don't know if he was ever on the plane. I don't know if he ever, I don't think he ever came to the island. But I went two places with Andres Pastrana. One was to Colombia when Epstein came to that. And the other was to Cuba and Epstein was there and Pastrana was, I think, was there.

And what were the purposes of traveling to Colombia then Cuba? I'm a helicopter pilot and Andres is a helicopter pilot. And we just became friends and I flew a black cork in Colombia. And how about to Cuba? I have a friend of mine who was the cigar distributor for Monte Cristo's maybe. I can't remember which cigar it was. And so I met there and he organized him for it and we met Fidel Castro. When was that a proximity?

It had to be 2002, 2003. Something like that, I think. There's some more names that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions. But as far as a catch-all, there's been a tremendous amount of public information about all kinds of names, including some of the folks we talked about today. and their relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you. For any of the folks that we've talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr. Epstein,

whether with masseuses or with women or girls who were traveling or at the residence that they were at or at the parties that they were at? I did not ever at any time see that. And for any of the names we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll talk about some more, but for today, do you recall having any conversations with anybody else where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done, whether someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody that observed something? If anybody had ever reported anything, first of all, the answer to that is no.

And also I just want to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting like that, I would have immediately done something. And I never heard it, I never saw it. And no one ever, ever, ever complained to me or tears, nothing like that. Okay. All right. So we took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein and his death. Oh.

Bless you. That's okay. Take your time. so Mr. Epstein and his death so you were not obviously at the MCC

during that time, correct? Thank you. Thanks. I thought I thought I'd got something that blew up my nose. Just take some water, it's okay, no problem. You were not at the MCC during that time, correct? I was not. you're going to tell us what you believe, but just to, I just want to make sure I understand

your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them, knew him, right? Actually, there's a third component. Okay. The answer to that is yes. Okay. There's a third component, which is having experienced now the mismanagement. and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.

From BOP. Yes. Okay, fair. Okay, so, you know, I want to, what I do want to be careful about is, you know, asking you to speculate because anybody can do that, and I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion, but do you think that, that third point you say which is up which is kind of a failure by the BOP there's been a lot of there's a OIG report there's a STY investigation about that do you so you think he was

he was he did not die by suicide given all the things we just talked about I do not believe he died by suicide and do you believe that do you have any speculation or view of who killed him I no I don't and I asked that because if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail or that he had kind of a list or that he had reasons to have people hate him. Why would somebody kill him in prison? In prison, where I am, they will kill you, or they will pay, somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for... $25 worth of commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.

So that goes to the third reason, which is kind of the mismanagement, or the shortfalls or shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons. Yes. Which is a little bit different than my question, which is, do you think there's somebody on the outside of persons? So putting aside what could happen on the inside? on the outside of a person who would, who wanted him dead so badly that he would have, or she would have, you know, caused him to be killed on the inside.

I think that's, I don't see that. I think, is it possible? Of course it's possible, but I don't know of any reason why, and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of this. I don't think Epstein had a hit on it like that. If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation. Yeah, so you're not, you, you're not, You don't have any reason first had knowledge or even speculation, it sounds like, to think that he was killed to kind of silence him or to keep him from going public about people he knew about.

I don't. No, because I think that is just part of the story that's been created that started back in 2008-9. Yeah, I mean, that's the point. I don't think there's value in talking, you know, there's been a lot of, there's a lot of information about what happened, you know, at the MCC. But what is important to me is whether, you know, if, is the idea that he didn't die by suicide, that's one thing, but if, to the extent that folks believe that he was murder to keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people, that's what I, do you, have any reason to believe that that's true. I do not. I have any reason to believe that. I also

think it's ludicrous, because I also happen to think if that is what they wanted, they would have had plenty of opportunity when he wasn't in jail. And if they were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would have been a very easy target. In the time, so we've talked about a lot of time all the way up through 2009-10 and then the time that after Mr. Ruffalo, you're the time that after Mr. Repson was arrested. When's the last time you spoke with him? Maybe 2016, 2017, maybe 2016, 2015, 2016, in that area, I believe. And what, when you're thinking about that last time, was that you had been talking to him a lot and then you stopped, or was that a one-off time and it was infrequent at that?

I really wasn't in communication. The only communications I had with him was in with regards to the civil suits that the civil suit that found myself in the defamation suit I found myself in I needed help I needed information and I didn't have what I needed and so that was really what it was me trying to get myself out of this situation which I ultimately led to where I am today. And so when all that, when that, I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that, I think he was, I thought he was angry with me anyway. He didn't like what I did, and I wasn't, wasn't interested in what he had to say to me. What, what did you think he was angry with you about? I think he was angry that I had even said that I had referred to her

being a liar. He said I should have not said anything, but. When, when, when, when, I had, The civil suits that were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death, did your lawyers coordinate with his lawyers in discovery and things like that? I don't think we coordinated in this. I'm not sure. I don't want to misspeak. I don't, I don't, I, there was some degree of communication for sure. I just don't know the degree that that took place. definitely, I mean, I was definitely hoping for him to be more helpful and I was definitely, coordinating is not a good word because that sounds like I was trying to me align myself. That's not where we were going here, but I was definitely trying to get help,

as in documents or information that I could use to defend myself. That's 100% true. And the degree to which that took place, I'm not, I don't, I don't recall. There was definitely some of that, though, I don't want to mislead. And we touched on this earlier, but I just want to, I don't think we really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could. Going up through that time, you know, so in the 16, 17, 18, up until the time he's arrested, had your view or your understanding of what had happened changed, meaning

did you believe that in the late 90s or early 2000s when he started behaving much differently did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point my views I don't like the people he was with anyway

so I I don't find I don't like I like people who my age older and I don't find the society of all the companionship of younger people who are younger people I said that is really that enjoyable so I don't like the company that he chose to be with and so I just find it boring and fundamentally uninteresting

that's probably the nicest way I can say yeah okay So I think what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow. Everything was great today. I think that it was very helpful, and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can. I think tomorrow you've said a few things today about materials that you brought. When we're done, we'll give you a few minutes with Mr. Marcus to, if there's things, things that you want to show him that you think we should see. Like I said, I'm not asking you to corroborate anything. If I was asking you to crowd write something, I would tell you,

but if there's something you think that you don't think that the government has seen or you think that it was important for me to see, let Mr. Marcus know, and he can share it with me. Tomorrow, we'll certainly have some follow-on questions when we all think about tonight, and I think you will too. We can all think about stuff we've talked about. We covered a lot of different areas. I do want to talk more about you. So by design today we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein

and talk about everything under the sun that we've gone through today. I do think it's important. When we all evaluate what you've said today and kind of your story, to understand, to also understand why you're here, right? So you were indicted, you were charged, you went to trial. And I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to say,

to kind of say your peace or to say what you haven't said before. But also understanding that there was people who took the witness stand and swore to tell the truth and testified about you and what you did and what they think you saw and what they heard you say. And I'm not, I said to Mr. Marcus, I'm not trying to create a, she said situation, or he said she said, she said situations. But I do want to hear from you about your conduct

because it's important, I think, when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and your recollection of things, to also to talk about that. So we're going to do that tomorrow. I want to talk about, you know, the circumstance leading up to your arrest. There's a lot of, I think, misinformation, or there's a lot of information out there that I don't know whether there's misinformation,

but about the time from, you know, 2019 up until the time that you were arrested. And then, like I said, that'll take us through lunch tomorrow, and then we'll be done. I'm not, I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was coming here until this week. Okay, so I'm not, there isn't like a, we don't have like a schedule of what happens next or what happens. But that's not a negative thing.

I'm just saying that that's, so you shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything other than we don't have a next step yet. So. May I say something? Of course, yes. I just would like to put out there that I also focused on, how I think the president got sweat into some of this, unnecessarily, by the way. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I certainly don't subscribe to all the, all of everything that I see.

But I do believe that there is animus in some areas that may have contributed to how the use of the president to harm him. that I find deeply offensive. And whilst I can't obviously say definitively that that is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit if it needs to be addressed. I've seen it, it struck me,

and I would like to give it to you for what it's worth. Okay. Does that seem something that I think? Yeah, that's fine. I don't like that. Okay, that's fine. That's great.

Okay, so why don't we stop for today? I'll give you a little bit of time to chat and then see you in the morning. Thanks, okay. This will conclude the recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th. We will continue tomorrow Friday, July 25th. The time is 3.34.