American court hearing recordings and interviews - Ghislaine Maxwell interview 7/25/2025. Day 2. Part 1. (from www.justice.gov/maxwell-interview)

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

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Good morning. Today is Friday, July 25th. The time is 9.24 a.m. My name is Spencer R. Horn. I'm the assistant special agent in charge of FBI New York. And we are here for a recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. So the proffer agreement we signed yesterday, I just, there's a place. on it for us to all kind of initial. It's exactly the same document, and you'll see your signature. If you can just initial right to the left of right here. Right there. And then Mr. Marcus will initial as well.

Thank you. And just to kind of, before we get going, I'll just say that exactly the same folks that were here when we met yesterday are here today. there's no, I'm not going to do formal introductions because it's exactly the same group of folks. So

we're continuing Ms. Maxwell our discussion of yesterday and the same kind of rules apply if you will take breaks. If you need to talk to Mr. Marcus or your lawyers, absolutely

no problem. Just let me know. I'll try to ask my questions in a coherent manner. but if there's anything that I say that's confusing, definitely interrupt me. I will thank you. So I think the easiest thing to start with is, is there anything that we talked about yesterday that we're going to go through some more names? I think that that's one of the places that we interrupted just because there's a lot of names.

But aside from additional names, is there anything that. you wanted to kind of follow up on that we talked about yesterday or anything that you thought maybe you remember more of or not some more names did come to me in the night and i did have some additional memories um just for clarity i believe i said that i couldn't think of anybody who i may have asked from um mara lago but then i i I've realized that I was, the allegation at least is that I met in Morinago, so I felt that I needed to address that, and I didn't want to leave that hanging because that seems weird under the circumstances. And also, but I couldn't remember anyone that maybe, you know,

it's a long period of time. So the issue is not that I'm trying to not say, but I just don't, I don't remember anybody that I would have, but it's not impossible that I might have asked someone I don't know exactly what you said yesterday, but I don't think what you said yesterday is different than what you just said. So yes. Okay, okay. I just wanted to be, I just didn't want to feel that I had said no to something. Definitely has said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago and that you received a treatment of her from her at some point and that you recruited her to meet Mr. Repstein. Do you know affirmatively whether that's true or false?

or do you just not have a memory either way? I really don't believe it's true, but I know that I did go to spas, and if I met someone I did ask if they're homes. I don't, in the realms of possibility, it could have, but I have no memory of it. And I don't believe that it's how it went down, but I don't want to. Okay, so I want to talk about,

we talked a little bit yesterday about the financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein. kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better word, for many, many years, starting around 25,000 and ending up at around 250,000 per year. There's, as you know from your trial, there's banking information that shows a ton of money being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years, and I think totaling something like $30 million, something like this. What's the, why was that money sent to you?

Like, what was that for? Well, first of all, I don't, I dispute the characterization that the money was sent to me. Okay, so tell me what, I am stuck with the witnesses at trial and what was set at trial on that issue. So what is the, what do you dispute about that? Well, I believe, I don't have full recollection. I'm not even sure I ever saw what. they accused me of, but my belief is that that money also contained money that was for a helicopter, for instance, that I never owned and I was never mine.

In other words, money was sent to you that you then used to purchase things? Well, I'm not even sure that I purchased it. So those accounts would be controlled by his accountants. Even accounts in your name, you're saying, or one of your entities. I'm not even sure I knew of all the entities. Maybe I did contemporaneously, but I simply wouldn't know today. So if there was an entity, let's say account X, if I really set that up myself, or whether they said we're doing this and the money's coming or whatever, but in no substantive way, I can't think of the right word.

Did you have control of the... I had no control, is what I'm saying. So when the government... When there was testimony or the government admitted evidence that showed, for example, $5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein to you, okay, what you're saying is that that may have happened, but that the you there wasn't money, he wasn't giving you money. I'm not going to say that for everything,

because maybe there were accounts that money was. that money was sent to me, but I can say that I know, like the helicopter I can definitively say, I'd have to look at all of them to be accurate for you, but to explain how or why I could be receiving monies, and I certainly did, so I'm not disputing all of it. But when you said, let's go back to the helicopter. Why would, why did money have to go into your accounts or account that was controlled by others, but in your name to like purchase a helicopter. Oh, that's a very good question.

I'm not sure I know the answer to that. I don't. So let me ask this maybe a different way that gets to the issue, right? So the accusation by the government based upon the evidence they collected is that Epstein paid you millions of millions of dollars over the years. And the reason why he paid you that is because you were performing an extraordinary service for him by recruiting young women, many of whom are underage, to so that he could sexually abuse them.

Okay, that's their allocation. Okay. From what you said yesterday and from what I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he paid for a lot in your life. Your flights, where you stayed with him, I mean, he didn't expect you to reimburse him along the way for food and, you know, so he took care of you for many years. That is true. On top of that, he actually paid you a salary, as we talked about, $25,000 to $250,000.

What else did he give you, or what purchase? Like, was there a time when he gave you a million dollars or $500,000 as a bonus? Or what financial benefit did you receive from him? Besides what we've already talked about. We don't have to talk about what would, you know, so. I got it. I got it. Okay.

So my goal always was to become independent, independently, financially secure and work for myself. I've never been one to not work. And in that regard, over the course of my friendship and my working relationship with Epstein, I expressed to him my desire to be independent of... him everywhere just to be freestanding. And with that in mind I wanted to have my own businesses or my own money coming in independent and separate from any salary that I received from him. And I needed that for my self-esteem. I've never been, I mean I'm obviously salary and it was a very generous one. Please, I'm not belittling the sum of money because it's huge. But

I was brought up to work and I was brought up to be my own. The first time, so I would either propose businesses to him or he would actually suggest, why didn't I do something? The first deal that we did, or the first business that we had or I had, and that he financed for me. So he lent me all the money to enable me to do this, and then I reap the profits, which I don't remember now, because we varied over the deals that we did,

that I would give him 50% or 25. It was sort of, it was random. And I can tell you what it is. So it was in Palm Beach, actually, and it was in real estate, and they sold what was the grounds origine of an estate called the Phipps Estate. And then they converted the land

that came with that estate, into houses. And I did, I think, two, or maybe three, I can't remember now, but certainly one, and maybe two, possibly three, I don't think so, I think two, that then were flipped, and there was a profit. So that would be an example of that, but I didn't have the money. So he lent me the funds to do that, business transaction, and then I reap the profits. And so, but when When a financial investigator,

like the FBI looks at accounts, they don't know kind of the conversations you're having, they just see the money. So in those cases, when that happened, when he financed that with you, would he send money to you? So does that explain some of the money? I think it does.

I think, for instance, there were two gall-wing Mercedes. that they did with Mercedes and Aston Martin, you can look up, I think, if I'm right, that had the doors that would come up like this, that were only a very limited number that were made. So I knew that we could get those and would flip them right within 24 hours, for example. Also, here's another example, something that you guys wouldn't have known about is I became a banker. I got my Series 63, Series 67 banking license, and became a broker for like a new Winnex. And then, because I was day trading.

Everything I had I day traded was through an account. And I think I was lucky more than smart, but I made quite a lot of money doing that. And so... When was that? That's again. It was in the 90s again. I don't... I think where you can find it is it'll be my banking license, right?

That'll be something that you can look up probably. So whatever that is, it is, and I just don't remember when that is. I'm sorry. So, okay. And so, for example, I was doing really, really, really well. And so he was like, how do you do that? Why are you investing in, I don't know, Apple when nobody liked Apple. This is, you know, before Apple or Microsoft.

I didn't know Bill Gates, so it's not related to him. But my family... Don't charge with it inside a crime. Please don't... No, I'm not trying to suggest that. Oh, goodness, please know. I had no... It was just a joke about it.

Okay. Oh, yeah, no, all right. But my... Going back to my family, my dad had given me an account when I was 12, and I had had always an interest in business and finance, not totally sophisticated. I'm not suggesting that.

And so I like to trade. And so I did, and I did well. And so then I would tell him what I was doing. Now, whether he did or he didn't, he told me he matched me in some other accounts that he had, because he did a lot of, my observation, to go back to what he did, I observed him personally and have recollection, personal recollection,

of him trading with, money, a lot. Tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. That was, that he was trading for other people or that was his own money.

I want also to clarify something for you or clarify or underline. Waxner was, in my opinion, his closest friend in this time period from when I met him

in 91, right? All the way until I don't know. Because I wasn't that friendly with, well, I did travel with Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told me that Wexner didn't want to be seen too much with me because of my family problems. You mean the problems that your father's company had with embezzlement or allocations of... Yes, that's what I'm talking about. And now, actually, today, not contemporary. but today I don't believe that that's even true. I think it was used as a means to not have me

travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It was just a way to park me. And I believe that now because within the discovery there was a lot of, well not a lot, but there was some indications that he would actively tell other people to lie to me or conceal things from me and that he never loved me and I wasn't his type. That's in the discovery somewhere. So, okay. So the government had evidence that even as late as 2007, he paid you a lot of money. What was that?

What was the money? Like several millions and millions of dollars in 2007. 7.4 million dollars, I think. What was that for? Was that the head of course? That was my question for you. Oh, sorry. I don't know.

So in 2007, that's probably the helicopter. That could have been the helicopter, the Sokorsky. Those big chunks like that, I don't personally have any memory of receiving a check from him for $7 million. I just don't. But I would have to, I know. So the answer to your question, to be precise. You would remember if it went into your pocket. I would, he never paid me to.

for services that you just described $7 million to, for any nefarious research. Yeah, I think I understand what you've said about being on the payroll and him helping you with businesses and giving you a lot of life things along the way. You travel with him, ate with him, is, you know, but there is these massive amounts of money one-time payments that I... You'd have to trace that, right? So I don't believe that came into my account or I had any control. I'd have no memory of that.

I've no... Well, but if there's records that show up coming into your account, it sounds like what you're saying is that not putting aside your... You have no memory of that money being yours. Like you didn't... That money is not somewhere... No, I wouldn't be like, oh, yippee, let me go. I've got $7 million, I'm going to go buy myself a yacht.

No. Or, I don't know, something else. Or move it to some other. No. I don't think if you look, you'll have to check. Well, obviously you will. I don't think you'll find that money moving to any account. Other of mine, or it shouldn't show, I don't believe, anyway, as far as I reckon, it wouldn't show me spending it.

Right. Does that make sense? Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think if, I don't think there's any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers at trial, that that money went in. $7 million in when, what year? Well, there's several years. In 2007.

And? In 2002, there was $5 million that you were paid in 2002. Oh, well, I'd have to, I don't... You've finally broken loose from work. Three friends, one tea time, and then the text. Honey, there's water in the basement. Not exactly how you pictured your Saturday. That's when you call us, Cincinnati Insurance.

We always answer the call. Because real protection means showing up, even when things are in the rough. Cincinnati Insurance, let us make your bad day better. Find an agent at CINFIN.com. I don't remember. But there would be another large sound, but it wouldn't have come from him later. The biggest one was in 1999. There's over 18 million, 18.3 million.

I don't know what that is. So what you're saying, it sounds like, and then if you don't know, we're going to, we can move on. But when we're talking about 18.3 million and 99, 5 million and three years later in 2002, 7.4 million in 2007, that money adds up to around $30 million. You are not paid that by Mr. Epstein, meaning that's not money you received for your benefit, even if it was put into your accounts. I don't believe any of that was my money. Now, I do, like I said, we did do these things with the cars. Yes, I understand that. I don't know if any of that money, some of it moves,

some of that may have come from the car or a house that was sold that I had interested in with him. That's possible. But I don't think this money is money. But also, the record should reflect, too, that there were times Gillen's name was used, for example, Air Gillen. Her name was in the name of the entity, It had nothing to do with her.

And if you pulled signatures, there's no... No, what I'm trying to just make sure I understand is that the idea that you were paid $30 million between $99 and 2007 in order to, by Mr. Epstein, to reward you for recruiting young women, that is, and you're saying that is categorically completely false. That is categorically false, correct. so I want to we went through several individuals yesterday and I want to

go through just a couple of more names and ask if you know them and if you do know them how you know them do you know Elon Musk and how did you meet Mr. Musk? I met him in, I don't remember the year, but it's going to be in 2010, 11, something like that, I think, if my memory serves. And I was at an event for Sergey Brin, the co-founder of Google, and Sergey had arranged for, it was for his birthday.

and we were, a bunch of us, I don't even remember how many we were, but not many of us, maybe if I say 40, I could be wrong. If it was 30 or 50, I don't remember, I'm sorry, went to another friend's island. Somebody called Mr. Bigotsie in the Caribbean, and not with Epstein. He was not there to celebrate Sergei's birthday. And we were there together for, I want to say, three or four days, something like that in my memory. And Mr. Musk was a present for that. And that was the first time you met him, as far as you know.

As far as I remember, yes. Did you meet, did you know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother? I don't know if I've ever met him. I know that he has a brother, but I don't think I met him. Aside from that time in around 2010 on the island of the Caribbean for a couple days, did you, have you seen, do you know Mr. Musk beyond that time? We met at, I was at the Oscars, and we met at the Oscars. What year was that?

Earlier or later? It was post that event, I believe. And do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk? I believe they did. And the only reason I say that it's not from my memory, but because I saw, I think I saw, my memory is that in discovery they were communicating on email. So you have no personal knowledge of that. It's just what you've seen from the press or from discovery. And I believe his brother as well, actually.

Excuse me? Mr. Musk's brother as well. But I don't, like I said, my memory is not, is not. It's not as good as I would like it to be, and I just want to say that. Do you, you mentioned, I think, yesterday in passing, not in passing, but as part of another answer, Andrew Cuomo. Yes. Did you know Mr. Cuomo? Well, only because he was married to Kerry.

Yes, okay. And I think I knew his brother as well. He has a brother, right? He's on TV. What's his name? Right, Christopher. You mean the former TV anchor or the TV anchor? Chris Cuomo? Yes.

So, but I would say just socially, I'm not close friends or anything, but because I was friends with Kerry and I met him a few times and I certainly met his brother as well a few times. And the same questions that I asked about Mr. Musk, do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or Ms. Kenner? Kennedy your friend? I don't think so. And so you don't recall any of those three individuals

like flying on Mr. Epstein's plane or visiting him in Palm Beach or at the island? No. I think you mentioned former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday, but if not, do you know Mr. Carey or not? I have met him, but I don't know if Mr. Epstein ever met him. I met him only, well, really, I don't. I can't even probably characterize that as a meeting,

but I was very, very involved in the ocean at work. You asked me yesterday about Terramal, and if I recall right, I met Mr. the secretary that way through the ocean, but he wouldn't know who I am, I doubt. Do you know whether, well, do you know former Senator Ted Kennedy? Yes. Is that through your own?

Life or through Mr. Epstein? My life. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy? I don't believe so. And so for the folks we just talked about, so former Secretary of State, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, you don't know whether Mr. Epstein knew him,

so I take that to mean you have no recollection of them flying on his planes or visiting him. Oh, but Bobby Kennedy knew him. Bobby the health. Sorry, say that again about Bobby Kenny? Bobby knew Mr. Hasty. How do you know that? Because we went on a trip together.

We went to dinosaur bone hunting in the Dakotas. When was that, you know, approximately. I'm not looking for an exact date, but when was that? I was early. That was in the early note. Well, let me back up. I knew Bobby's wife, Mary, pretty well, actually, and before he met her. Just to help us, I know we're talking about a wide span of time, but what are you, when are you talking about that you knew Mr. Kennedy's wife before they were married, so when are we talking about that?

I, in 19, I got to get my head straight. Well, would this have been before you met Mr. Epstein? Yes. I met him before I met. So we're talking about the 1980s? Oh, yes, yes, thank you. The 80s. Okay, so we're talking about the 1980s.

And then I had a very, very long-standing boyfriend. and he had his brother was dating Mary at the time and we were all good friends and then Mr. Epstein did Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you? I don't I don't think so because Mr. Epstein surprisingly everyone says everything happens through me that that's just not true I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he had friends from London, and those are very, they were what the people would call fancy. They were fancy people. But he had the same types of relationships before I met him in America. So when I met him, he was already, you know, Wexner, and he had Henry, and he had, he was, I don't know if then he was in the council from relations.

but he was friends with Ace and, you know, like, he was, he was well established. He didn't need me, and he was, you know, his Eva was, you know, major model. So he had all these modelling connections and friends in that business that long before I met him. And so the trip that you went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy, was that in the 90s? 2000s? I think it was in the, it would have been in that, I want to say, 93, 94. Okay. So a very long time ago. Very, very long time ago. A few years into the, your relationship, a few years into the time that you knew Mr. Epstein.

Yes. I mean, I don't want to hold myself to the dates because I really... No, no, I'm not holding you to dates. I think... I've said that a lot because I appreciate we're talking about the 80s and 90s and even the I don't want you to know that I haven't had any, I don't have anything to review, so I haven't had any ability to, short of my legal material, obviously, which I, you know I have, so I came with a boxwork, but short of that, I have nothing with which to refresh, well, very limited stuff, I should say, I don't want to say nothing, to refresh my mind. I understand that. Do you have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy, of there being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and masseuses, or, or young women on the trip you just talked about? I never saw anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy. Do you know whether he ever got a massage from one of the masseuses?

Do you know either way? I do not. But not something you remember. I mean, absolutely not. I mean, yesterday, if I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate it. I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate. with a woman of any age. I never saw inappropriate.

Now, I'm not going to say, you know, hands or that to me is not inappropriate. Now, somebody's inappropriate, and mine may be different, but I'm not talking about anything that resembles the accusations that we're discussed here. So that would be a flat note to any man. Did your or Mr. Epstein's relationship with Bobby Kennedy continue into the 2000s as far as you know? I would say yes. Well, mine, yes.

With you. With me for sure. And do you know whether Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, continue to have relationships into the 2000s? I have no personal knowledge of that. I mean, I would, because here's another thing. is that everyone puts us together like a monolith. He literally had a separate life from him. I literally had a separate life from him. Now, did they say? Well, of course they did. I'm not, crazy, but he kept a lot to himself, and he didn't like to share. He was not a sharer. Well,

at least not with me. Mr. Epstein didn't share, you're saying. Not with me, no. Did you, do you know somebody named Cheryl Mills? I do. I do. I do. I do. Yes, I do. How do you know Ms. Mills? I met Ms. Mills through President Clinton. Do you remember generally the time frame that you met her? I do, actually. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to remember her to get my dates right. Approximately. Well, okay, I can't get my dates right.

It's something you probably can be. It's going to be in the early 2000s. Okay. So what I don't recall... I want to say 2002. So it was after President Clinton left office. Oh, yes. And so it was in the 2000s.

Definitely. And how did you meet her? What were the circumstances to know what you met, Ms. Mills? I went on a trip with the president to South America. With which president? Oh, sorry, President Clinton. Yeah, okay. Sorry.

I just wanted to make sure it was clear. Okay, so you went on a trip to where? Latin America. And who And so Miss Mills was on that trip She was And President Clinton was on that trip He was

Who else was on that trip? Duck Band Who worked with President Clinton Yes And Was Mr. Epstein? No And what was the purpose of that trip?

Well The president had been I don't know I mean, the president met with, I can't even remember all the presidents. But was this part of President Clinton's work after he left office with his foundation? Or was, meaning, was it something for him? I don't remember when the Clinton Global Initiative started. So if you give me that date, I can tell you if it was pre or post.

Because without that, I can't pin the reason. remember what it was for or not? No, I don't recall. I mean, I don't... Don't overthink or underthink the reason from my questions. I don't have any idea why you went on that trip. So I don't know an answer that I'm keeping on you. No, I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible and give you the information that you see.

Do you remember why you were invited to go? Like, were you friends with somebody? What was your role going on that trip? I didn't have a role. So do you remember why... Do you remember who invited you to go? Probably Doug banned. And how did you know Doug?

Because Doug and, again, was back with Philip Levine. And do you know whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein? Who? Doug. I don't know. I mean, nothing. I don't believe there was any relationship other than I helped. Well, without me, I don't think there would have been those flights,

because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide the plane for, well, certainly I remember the one to Africa, of course, that big trip. And I thought it was an honour and a privilege to be part of something so amazing and to have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I found truly extraordinary. And please, I don't mean it in any other way other than a... is a form of fantastic ex-president. So I was asking around the question, but I was asking, were you basically asked to go because you were kind of responsible for the plane?

Not responsible is the wrong work. They were able to use you to make sure that they could... You helped them get Mr. Epstein's plane for the trip? No, I don't even know if when I was on that, in fact, I think that trip, I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the president. Okay. I think this is, if I'm right, and I think I am, I think that trip happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even,

not that they'd never met because Epstein had gone to the White House, but they had not met. I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then because they'd never met, and it would be weird. But they met because of me, and the plane was because of me. But that trip was the first, I think, the first trip I took with the ex-president, and I don't believe Epstein and he had met. and we're talking in a time period when I was trying to leave,

not very successfully, obviously, but I was branching out on my own and being more independent of Mr. Epstein and trying to hire all kinds of businesses that I was into. I was trying to start the first telehealth medicine with the Cleveland Clinic. I mean, I'm not going to bore you because I don't think that's what you guys are. interested in, but those were the sorts of things that I was looking for him to finance so that I could stop being, you know, a general manager of a hotel. Did you, so did you take other trips with some or all of those individuals kind of without Mr.

Epstein in later years? Like you said that was the first time that you had kind of been on something like that and it was an honor and you were spending time with, with former President Clinton and others, were there other, over the years, did you do that more than once? Yes. We'll talk about those. Like multiple times, like too many to count, or three or four times, like how many times? A lot, a lot. I went on a lot of trips.

Now, I don't recall all of them, not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything, but I just don't remember them all. And after a while, you know, in the incredible job, you have, all of you, that when you're so high-pressed and you're spending so much time with extraordinary people like you do with President Trump, it can blur. It just does. And there's a few things that stand out because at the end it's all just extraordinary as cars and the sirens and president. It's like, well, okay. So I understand. But, but, you know, by the But talk, so don't give me, understand you can't give specific numbers.

What, describe more about kind of your, that part of your life and your relationship. I'm using relationship. You don't like relationship. I don't. And you're, sorry, and your. My employer. Yes. So just to describe what you were doing with those individuals.

So when I say those individuals, I'm talking about former President Clinton, Doug, other folks that work with him. Yes, there were loads of them. And all of them, you know the team, I don't need to give you all the names. You have them at your fingertips, and I can confirm if you give me names, I'll say yes, because they're not going to pop into my head. Right. Okay.

So I started spending a lot of time. I don't want to characterize that. I started to spend time with the former president and with Doug and his team. And I had no person. really other than I had I obviously offered something I don't know ideas of I don't know anyway and he started to travel I don't remember if the first trip was Africa or how it went but at some point I think there was actually two trips but I'm not sure so there was to Europe and then to Africa I think maybe it was all one

trip and at some point um mr. Epstein said he didn't want to go on the trip and he was going somewhere else and he just left and I was like well okay and so I ended up doing the whole trip without mr. Epstein or his plane and when you were traveling with them what were the purposes of the trips like is this one I think these were all, I think actually was the AIDS, was one of the primary ones for his AIDS Foundation when he was working to do that. And they were always a humanitarian side to the trips.

And we went to Egypt, and that was, oh, yeah. So it sounds like you're describing one, right now one trip were with lots of stops. It could be, but I have a feeling that I went on other trips, but I can't remember. When you went on this... I went to London. To London, okay. I don't know if that's the same trip.

When you went on these trips, were you always on Mr. Epstein's plane? No. Or did you sometimes accompany them on a different plane? Correct, yes. How many were on Mr. Epstein's plane? Again, I'm not holding to exact, but... That was a full, that was packed. Because there was a lot of secret service.

It took all the secret service as well. So it was whatever the detail is for secret service, it's a lot. And on how many occasions, besides the trip you just described, were there other times when they used President Clinton and the folks he was with used Mr. Epstein's plane? I think it was twice, maybe. There was that. But it will reflect on the logs.

There won't be anything that's not on the logs that you have or anything. Were you, by the way, responsible for the logs in any way? Like, you've seen the logs in their public, and you have them in discovery, but over the years when you were working with or for Mr. Epstein, did you have access to the logs? No, never. The pilots, the logbook was their personal logbook. I never even saw them have it.

I never saw them fill it in. And then there was a second set of logs, the flight manifests. And I never saw those either. never, I was never allowed, I suppose, because I don't want me to see. Do you know, so do you know whether Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship with President Clinton, different from what you just described, so different than being with him with respect to his foundation or something like this? I would say no. When's the last time that you went on a trip or saw President Clinton?

I was in, it was late, 2016, 17, 8, something. It was in Los Angeles. And what was the purpose of that meeting? He was hosting something, or he was at an event, and I was in May, and I had dinner with them. Did you ever meet Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton? Yes. When did you meet her?

I want to say, again, please don't hold me to it, but I want to say that it was on a flight that came from the island, not from the island, from the Nantakeet or Martha's Vineyard, back to New York, is what I think. might be wrong. Okay, so an East Coast island like Nantauket or something like this? The ex-president never came to the island.

And did you, is that the only time that you met Hillary Clinton? No. I went to the house in Chappapagrin a few times. And why did you go to the house? I was invited. Just to see President Clinton or Hillary Clinton or both?

Yeah, I mean, as a as a friend, not for, there was no, I don't remember any reason. Either was, somehow I communicated that was in coming, driving back past Chapaguar if they were home and stopped in, it's, and it sounds a little flippant, but it could, it could have been even something as. And do you know whether Mr. Epstein had knew or had any sort of business dealings or associated with Hillary Clinton? I would say no.

Did you ever see them together? No. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever did any business transactions with the Clintons? I would, well, I'm not sure I can't. I don't know the answer to that strictly because I was part of the beginning process of the Clinton Global Initiative, and that was something that I helped with. and that was me. And Epstein may have helped me help them.

And in that context, he may well have involved himself, but only in the context of something that I was trying to do. So when you say involved himself, meaning like give money to the Clinton Global Initiative or something like this? Well, so there's that. I think he did do that, and that I believe the money that he may have given,

could have been independent of me, but I think it's just easier if I just tell you how it happened rather than, otherwise, it sounds all odd and funky. I went to Davos with the former president, and I, have you been to Davos? Have you been to Davos? I have not. Okay, well, you know it's a, you know what it is, right? Okay, so. And I was, I thought that the former president should have his own DAWS because it would be,

and it turned out that they had been thinking about it anyway, and so we were talking about it. And, you know, it's a very heavy lift to get something like that to go. And I was friendly with one of the people who had, I don't, know if he was at the beginning of Davos, but he was running Davos. I don't know how to describe his actual role at Davos, and I had conversations with him about what did he think, you know, just because I was having dinner with him about if Clinton could get something like that together, what was his thoughts? And he was very, very enthusiastic. I mean, he was like, that's just an incredible idea. So I put them together.

What's that person's name? Do you remember? I knew you were going to ask me. I can... I just... You said, I didn't know if you knew his... I do know. I do, but I just... Can't remember his name. It will come to me.

It may come to me tomorrow, but eventually these things like surfaced, like in the middle of the night, I was scribbling names that I couldn't remember from yesterday. Okay. But his name will come to me, and if not we can find it. So you, when the... Just still stay, staying on your relationship with... Sorry, your association with the Clintons, you were part of the ramp-up or the startup of the Clinton Global Initiative

in helping them and supporting that effort. I would say very central to that, yes. And Mr. Epstein, was he part of the work around that or just in support of you? He supported me to help them, but then I think he may have tried. to use that to insert himself in some way. That would not have surprised me at all. And I know that he was annoying in some ways. I could catch him on the phone,

and he wouldn't always agree with what I wanted to do. And I was like, it was not your idea. I don't really care what you think. But I didn't go over so well. And... I just want to say, it wasn't my idea for his CGA. It wasn't. It said again?

It's not my idea. They had had that idea before. I just help bring key personnel. You're saying the idea of President Clinton kind of having his own Davos- I'm not owning, I didn't, that's not. Understood. No, I'm trying to elevate myself in any form of importance here. No, I understand.

Okay. Did you go to Davos with President Clinton more than once or just once? Once for sure, and I think maybe twice, but I don't remember. Did, and you're not, I think you said, you don't, you're not aware of President Clinton ever going to the island. He absolutely never went, and I can be sure of that, because there's no way he would have gone, I don't believe there's any way that he would have gone to the island had I not been there.

Because I don't believe he had an independent friendship, if you will, with Epstein. Did he speak? Did he go on the, yes, but that's very different from going to spend time on night. And plus, the story as told is so patently absurd that I flew him, in the helicopter. I am a helicopter pilot, that is true, but the notion of me flying an ex-president on a machine, it would never even take that responsibility, can you imagine? Yeah, no, I'm not, no. Did you ever go with President Clinton to any of Epstein, Mr. Epstein's properties? So, like New Mexico, Palm Beach, or in New York? I have no memory.

of him in any of those places. When you were in London with President Clinton, did you ever go to your flat with him? I don't think he did. I don't think so, because it is, you haven't even been able to carry all his secret service with him. I don't think so. No.

Okay. Do you know, we talked a little about the Duchess of York about Sarah Ferguson yesterday. Did, um, once a, when's the last time you, like, when's the last time you, you, you saw her? Like, were you, were you, did you have a, were you with her, hang out with her, socializing with her in the 90s, 2000s, both? She's, well, um,

I had a, I, I, I don't know if she liked me very much. I think my friendship with her ex-husband sometimes she really did like me and sometimes she didn't so maybe a friend of me I don't know it was always friendly when we were together but I think that there was some latent hostility

and I... Is that something you've heard since everything came out or along the way you felt that way? No that's how I felt that's that is a characterization of myself that's how I felt about it I would never, I was always friendly with her, I mean, she's, I mean, I've seen her many, many times, and she's also super, super close with other people, who are very good friends with, in England. I think that, I think that she liked Mr. Epstein. What do you think, though?

My female intuition. Oh, I'll remember. Oh, I don't remember it. Oh, well, they. It's okay. It's possible that there's things, well, that's not possible. I know that there is discovery, but I don't recall. But I think she had a thing.

Did, there's some actors or some folks from Hollywood that I want to ask you about just to understand whether you knew them or Mr. Epstein knew them. Chris Tucker? Yes. How did you know Mr. Tucker? I think only from that flight to Africa, but I do think that they met. You say that flight to Africa, the one we were just talking about, President Clinton. Yes. Yes.

Okay. Sorry, go ahead. Yep. But I also think that they kept a little bit in touch, and I think they met, or I have a memory of him. Maybe in L.A. I don't know. I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch. I wouldn't, I don't think it, I don't know. I don't know how to say that.

Do you know Mr. Tucker besides that flight? No. And do you know whether, um, what? When you say you think that they kept in touch, you mean you think that Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker? They may have. I didn't, but he might have. I'm sure. Kevin Spacey? I know him also from that same flight. Aside from that flight, do you know from any other thing?

No. Naomi Campbell? Yes, I do know Naomi. And I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein and Mr. Bowstein and Mr. former president, Clinton. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein separately knew Ms. Campbell? I think he probably met her through me, that I imagine. And so for those three, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey and Ms. Campbell,

did they ever travel to any of Mr. Epstein's properties, the island or New Mexico? not Mr. Tucker, well, not to my knowledge, Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey, Naomi Campbell may have. To where?

She may have gone, well, she certainly, well, I believe she visited him in Palm Beach, and I believe she may have gone to the island, and she may have gone to his house in New York, whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as well, maybe. They were friends, or friendly. Were you, what you just said she may have, were you on those trips?

I don't have any independent memory of that, so I'm not sure. I don't think so. Do you know? Her relationship, her friendship, her, making me use your word. Her friendship, whatever, with Mr. Epstein, was independent of me. Okay. But you also had a separate friendship with her. Before you met Mr. Epstein?

I did. Okay. Larry Summers, the former secretary of the Treasury. Do you know that person? I did. Yes. How? I met Mr. Summers through Mr. Epstein. And the same question, just generally time period?

Are you talking about early 2000s, 90s after that? I honestly really don't know. I did want to say something. I forgot that there was yesterday you asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties. He had a rental in Boston as well. Not for very long, but it was another place that I had to put together.

I only went with him once and he would go there independently of me. I would not go with him. Was that in the 90s? I think it was, yes. Mr. Summers, do you know what his

relationship was with Mr. Epstein, business, personal, both? Or don't you know? I think. I think he spoke to Ms. Epstein about business a lot, but I think they were friends and friendly. Do you know whether Mr. Somers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes to any of the properties that Mr. Epstein owned? He may have, but I don't think if he did, I was on any of the flights. But there's another issue. I mean, I traveled so, so much that I really, the flights just blur.

I understand. George Soros? I don't think he knew him. I did, but I don't think he did. How did you know Mr. Soros? I was friends with his kids. Which kids? John. And I can't think of his other child.

I can't think. I would say he. I met him. But just socially, and he may not remember that even having met me out, I was excited to meet him. When are you thinking, when would you have met him? If I met him,

I think it was either at an event or at his kids. It wouldn't have been at his house. An event, or I think I actually know in the Hamptons I met him. He was staying at somebody's house if my memory serves. And what was your relationship? How did you know his kids? I was out and about in New York a lot. So just socially?

Just socially, yes. And, yeah, just socially, I think. Do you know whether Mr. Soros or his kids ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes? I don't think so. And ever visit either the island or New Mexico or Paris? No, I don't think so. No. So we tried to identify names that have come up either publicly or in other lawsuits.

Are there any names that you come to mind that we haven't? We've talked about a lot of names. A lot of others. There's some folks that you think we've forgotten to ask you about. Well, you asked me about names, and I have some names, and I just want to give you some context for the names as well. So we talked about Elizabeth Johnson yesterday. She had a boyfriend, and he was Frederick Fakhai, the hairdresser,

and he and Epstein were friendly, very friendly. And then what time pair are you talking about? Like 90s or 2000s or both? I think the 2000s actually for that. You can date that because from when he... I think he probably knew Frederick before he dated Elizabeth. But... And when you say they were very friendly,

did they go... Do they travel together? I don't know if they traveled together, but... I mean, Epstein didn't go out very much. I mean, he didn't go out, but not... And sometimes if he did, he did. I think he would go out.

maybe see Frederick. And then there was, I mean, he had a bunch of guys that he would, I would know that he would see or meet. But he really, I guess now I'm not so. He had any friends, I don't know, but. Okay, what other names? Okay, so Henry Cherokee, who had an island near his. Henry was a financier.

He was the guy who cornered the silver market back in the, day. He had an island in the Caribbean, in the Caribbean near the Restrish Virgin Islands. Okay. And there was Branson's Island there. I know that there's an allegation that they met. I think I remember that I went to

Richard Branson's Island with Mr. Epstein and maybe he went another time, but I don't, I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and him as friends, but he did go and I think I went with him. Do you know whether Mr. ever came to Mr. Apparstein's Island?

If he did, I was not there. Okay. Okay. Sorry, but it's possible. Understood. Who else? Marvin Minsky. He had a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly with,

all centered around Harvard. So I remember him, Martin Novak, who's a mathematician, Stephen Jay Gould. I don't know if Stephen J. Gould was, came through that Harvard angle, but I know that there was a, he would, Epstein would have dinners at the house that I was tasked to organise and the scientists were a very major component of that. They weren't social dinners as much as they were scientific, he would discuss, he would discuss, but if you were in the area of brain, cognition or he would, he would, he would discuss, but if you were in the area of brain,

cognition or he would invite them to the house and they would come, all of them. Any name you can name me it would be there. So let's talk about that

top, that relation those associations or relationships they have with the mathematicians and with Harvard and I think with MIT to some extent. For sure, MIT too. What, from what you observed,

what's the reason behind him having, developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT, and with certain professors and others associated with those institutions. He really was profoundly interested in that area of science and in the brain. And in, I mean, if you were in Stephen J. Gould or the major scientist on happiness, I mean, it came, I believe, from a genuine area of interest, not from anything. And how did he become friends with them? How was he able to spend time with them?

Meaning, did he donate to the university and then they were kind of, it was mandatory fun for them, or did he have relations with them where he would host them? I don't know if the chicken or the egg came first. Okay. But when I met him first, I mean, he was already doing a lot of this stuff. This is not, I've read, so this is why I'm saying this. I was not responsible for this area. I mean, I certainly, sorry, just to balance a second before it slips my mind and I leave something out.

There was an institute in New Mexico called, anyone, the Institute of, it's a very famous. We're not talking to Alamos. Anyway, all right, there's a very famous institute anyway, so you can look it up. It'll come to you at the minute you put it in your computer. And there had some of the biggest brains ever. Those, that relationship came through me. So that's me. And that is because my father was one of the major scientific...

Hit up my family fortune, when I had one, came from scientific publishing. And when it started from the thing that you were asking me yesterday, my father was in the Second War, I told you, and he won the military cross, and then he actually did become, it was part of intelligence back in the war, and his job was to interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war. And then he parlayed into a business with Springer Verlag and then into Pergman Press, which which was the scientific journals business. And he had an interest.

He believed that its knowledge is what would prevent war. And the biggest scientific discoveries, well, not all of them, but many of them are coming from the Eastern Bloc. And that's how we have the relationship with Santa Fe Institute, and Murray Galman specifically. And I introduced Defteen to Murray Galman. Sorry. This is the Santa Fein's, too?

Yes, thank you. And Murray Galman was there. And Murray Galman and Epstein got along very, very well. He was the man of the clock. So do you know whether, so while you, when you meet Mr. Epstein in the early 90s, continuing on, so not what he had done before. Did he, why do you think from what you saw or what you heard,

he had the relationship or wanted to have the relationships that he had with Harvard and with MIT. So I think that that may have come with Wexner. I'm not sure, but that's something that I think that Wexner maybe had a relationship with Harvard and that he used that relationship to, I believe he funded a lot. And if he didn't, that his clients, of which Wexner,

obviously, was one, would fund, and he would then make, he would arrange the fund or organize the fund or... We'll take a break in a minute, but just to kind of set us up what we're going to talk about next. We talked yesterday morning about Mr. Epstein's kind of business and how he had money. Did he seem to live beyond his means as far as what he was making? So did you ever get the sense while you were with him that it was suspicious? or curious how he was able to have the funds to, you know, by, you know, two plains,

you know, an island, New Mexico, you know, the ranch, almost, almost unlimited funds. You said it perfectly. I thought it was astonishing, but I didn't have any reason to believe that it came from anything nefarious. I saw him work. I never saw him really do anything other than be on the phone. There's that. And he had a lot of meetings, but he had a lot of accounts. And he dealt with pretty much every financier that you could care to mention. And if I could have access to the names, I'd be able to tell you which ones. I just don't remember them all. But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, all of them, to my mind anyway. And most of the of the major businessman at that time. He was in the Council of Foreign Relations. So you had access,

that's an extraordinary list of people. It just is. And then he, you asked me about his business. So I thought about it last night, how to try and explain what it was. And I think the best thing is to focus only on Wexner's business. So I was present for some of their meetings in some of their business. And I listened. And so, think, that I personally recollect, and I know I heard, was that he would, when I told you yesterday, I think that he would, no detail was too small, so he would do the contracts with the staff, I think, and I saw that myself. And he also organized all the trusts for all the children. So if Wexner had kids, and if he did, he did have children. So every time there was a child,

he would create a trust for that child. And I don't, these were complex. financial structures that would contain stocks of the various businesses. He restructured when I was there, Wexner's business in its entirety, as I recollect. And then not only that, but there were business interests. So Wexner owned or built or designed or I don't quite know how to characterize it, but New Albany, which is a centre outside of Ohio, of Columbus, Ohio, specifically. and he built, I remember this conversation, he built himself a very large house, like truly enormous, that's one of the biggest private homes I've ever been to.

And he built all the houses around him, and I'm like, this is so random, why would you do that? And he said, well, because I want to make sure that the people around me, my friends, I want my friends around me and my neighbours. And I was like, well, whatever, okay, you know. I've been around enormous wealth my whole life, And I've, like, at some point I just say, okay, whatever, I get it. And I don't, and so that's what he did, but Epstein ran New Albany,

which included a country club and a golf club and a, I mean, gosh, your boss is one of the all-time great, you know, businessmen in this area, you know what that is, and he certainly does. So there'd be that, and there was a business business that Epstein, well, he told me he owned it, of course, I can't say that for sure, because I don't know, but it's a sports thing, Redel said a business. Redels? I thought about it last night. It's red and had hats, helmets. Ridels?

Rydell. Rydell. Yeah, Rydell's. Okay. Now, how he owned that, he told me he owned it. But how he owned that, but that was before I, and I think I came in and he had it. Or he said he did.

And he had other businesses. He had, I know this notion that he did nothing and he just was a grifter and whatnot. Okay. I'm not going to say that's not true, but it's not what I saw and it's not what I believe is true. Not because it couldn't have been that he didn't grift or whatever the word is of people. But I saw what I thought looked like real work. Well, why don't we take a break?

Okay. Thank you. All right, the time is now 1035, and we'll take a break.