American court hearing recordings and interviews - Ghislaine Maxwell interview 7/25/2025. Day 2. Part 2. (from www.justice.gov/maxwell-interview)

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

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We are resuming from break, and the time is 1049 on Friday, July 25th. All right. So we've talked around this issue, but talked about it a little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so, or however long it takes. When you, when we, I want to talk, focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and, like, his criminal conduct. with respect to women. Do you... You said yesterday a couple times

that you now kind of recognize or think that there were things that he did that you didn't know about and that he kept from you or that you didn't see. What did you see? So you said yesterday, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth,

but at some point he was getting massages. seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day, women have said that were there, that say they were there, giving him massages, said that those included some sort of sexual conduct, however you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage regularly. So what did you see and hear at the time?

And then I think, aside from what you saw and heard of the time, now that you've been through what you've been through and heard people say what they've said and read what that read, where does that leave you in your mind with what happened? So I saw Epstein with women. What I mean by that is he would have women around him or women on the plane or women in his house or that's how I'm explaining that.

those women were very interested. My characterization of the relationships between all women that I saw with him and him was characterized by their interest in him as I would see it. And by that, I mean, I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him. and be with him maybe socially or whatever. I never saw anybody not under any form of duress in any type of situation where they were, as I would characterize it, looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed.

In the entire time I was with him or traveled with him, I never saw that. So any time I saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him. He would ask people all the time, whoever you were, to massage his feet. He just was, he'd be sitting there and he'd have somebody massage his feet or squeeze his shoulders, or I saw that a lot. It was an ubiquitous interaction, if you will. So I did see that.

I saw physicality, but not anything that was how to characterize it. that looked aggressive, I suppose, to define that. So I never saw an aggressive move. I never saw anything that was... Non-consensual. Thank you. Okay. I never saw anything that was non-consensual. So if he...

Well, maybe they didn't... I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like the hug or... I never saw what I would characterize as anything that was unconsensual. Did you see... Did you see him either receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw something non-consensual. Did you see him engaged in sexual conduct during massages?

Well, you could define sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have been less than normally clad for massage, but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless. I did see that. So you would... But what about in... So, yes, I agree. That's one area.

Like, so women who are either not clothed or topless with just a bottom on. But beyond that, did you see as part of that him touching them? And again, I'm not talking about consent or not consent or age or, you know, I'm saying like there's multiple,

multiple, you know, dozens and dozens of women. who have said that they engaged in sexual contact, and I agree there's a broad range of how that can be defined, but defining it in the broadest of terms. I saw him being physical with women. I did see that, but nothing that was not consensual. And to address the issue of the large number of women

who today say that he was not consensual or coercive with them, I'm not sure in my mind I sort of have to characterize the two distinct areas there's one where is the women who are not of age therefore anything with them is immediately unconsensual correct so let's start I don't want to define anyone who's under age versus anybody who's overage because I do think that there's a very significant

differential between the two well so does the law yeah I don't mean that No, I agree with you. Yes, I agree with you. Yeah. Okay, so I want to deal with the thing which is really why we're here. I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the other, but I just want to make a distinction with underage situation

because there's nothing about that that's right. I never saw anything with anybody who was certainly to be categorical from my trial. Let's deal with that because that's something that I can say in, I never saw that with them at all. And I would say that, as described anyway in my trial did not happen as described. I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things. I'm not casting those, I'm not going to say,

I don't feel comfortable saying that today given what I now know to be true. So I'm not here to defend him. But what I can say is that I did not participate in that activity. And so let's divide this into two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll start with two areas. One is there was testimony and there's certainly been depositions and public statements that some of these young women had conversations with you about their age. So, for example, conversations.

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Find an agent at CINFIN.com. It's about the fact that they were in high school or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day, which would necessarily mean. well, not necessarily, but would be more likely to mean that they were in I school when I talk to you about that. And so were there women that you knew were underage? And I say that because that's different than whether they were sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just merely their age and going to give him a massage. No, I never knew that.

and I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17, because 17 in England, I mean, if someone had said there was 17, I don't, I've read so much that that did happen. I mean, I'd just, but I had no, I would never have permitted such a thing. I would even know what I would have done. So some of the, I think even someone who testified at trial, but certainly publicly talked about was as young as 14

when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein in your mind today you don't you kind of reject that that happened that you saw that meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman

coming to give him a massage Well I believe you're talking about Jane and I'm very happy to address that I actually don't think that the testimony is correct. I don't believe... No, no, I'm not... Yeah, I just want to tell you how...

Yeah, I don't want to get into it. No, no, no, I'm not... No, no, absolutely not. I don't want to go there either. I'm not going to do that. But I believe that what took place with a lot of these people is that there was a slide, right?

So there was a zone. And he did meet her, and I did meet her, and I knew that she was a young child, and I knew that she was not an adult. Because, but I don't believe he met her until she was 16. So I'm not, I'm not doing it, he said, she said. I'm not doing that because nobody, that's not what we're here for. But he didn't meet her until she was 16.

And the entire testimony of the 14, 15 and 16 year old is therefore not accurate. Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she was young? I absolutely did. but everything that took place that was alleged a trial at the 14 and 15 and 16 is not accurate. And there's testimony or there's, and again, I'm using testimony in the broadest sense. Some of this is just public statements or something that's come out in civil lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving like an 18,

you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody, which again, if true, would by definition mean you knew that she was under 18? Do you recall doing that? I do not. I mean, no memory of that at all. And I believe that would be the person that called herself Kate as now announced herself in her own podcast for who she really is. Her name is a...

So I did not meet a... Until actually she was either 20 or 20. so it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card and the testimony that slid back. Do you accept that at some point, and we talked about this yesterday about how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women. I accept. And I think you said yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about it, is that

something that you in your mind one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later so I just also want to be clear I never understood that change to encompass children I did see from when I met him he was involved or involved friends with whatever you want to characterize it with women who were in their 20s and then the slide to you know 18 younger-looking women. But I never considered that this would encompass

criminal behavior. And so when you read I guess two different times, right? One was during the Florida investigation when there were eventually public statements from some of these

now women who testified about what they did with Mr. Upstein when they were under 18. At that point, did you realize, or did you think to yourself this happened or this could have happened? I missed it? Or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or were not remembering what happened the way that accurately? That's a very fair question.

So I think that my view of this at that time, call it as contemporaneously as it did, because I don't think that stuff came out in public. I mean, I may have read things, but I don't... My first real memory of that is at the trial. But my viewpoint, if you will, was set from the minute that lied in Hursa. deposition and I could never recover from that because what are you what are you what are you

referring to her entire characterization characterization okay now I I don't remember how she came and whether I did but I'm talking about the first time she came to Epstein's house which I knew to be false so from that first lie of that description I could never recover from that so and that tainted sorry just so that we're clear that tainted then the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that, because I had my own personal experience, which I knew to be false. Yeah. And the reason why I think, and I said to Mr. Marcus that this morning that we were going to talk about this,

because when I think about you and the public's perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you. Now you've explained the last day and a half how some of that's just a misperception because you weren't, you didn't have a key to his house, you weren't around as much as maybe everybody claims you were, okay? But there still is this perception out there that, oh my gosh, if we could talk to Ms. Maxwell, we would know

how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was, whatever the truth is about Mr. Epstein. And the challenge in my mind, just to be, I told you I would tell you when I had issues, and the challenge in my mind is that so many women have said that Mr. Epstein sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults, that I don't find it, you know, at some, that's persuasive, right, that that happened.

Okay, so. And so if that's persuasive, then, and I think it's without beyond contestation that he preferred younger women. And it's also beyond, I think, at this point, there were certainly circumstances that underage women. Well, I don't want to say that you agree with me on that. I certainly believe that there were younger age women that were abused by him. And so the layer that I really want to have a frank discussion about is some of these women have said, oh yes, you know, Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees. She saw me there, the door was open when I was there, and then much more egregious, right,

that you participated and that you were part of it. And so what I really want you to have an opportunity to say to us is where on the spectrum the truth is, whether it's somewhere in the middle, whether it's one extreme or another extreme. Understanding, in my mind, I'm talking about 1994 or five to whenever, late 90s, early 2000s. And let me just interrupt. and all I would say is we're not here to say anything that's one way or the other about Epstein. I agree

with you that the evidence is overwhelming against him and he he's his own person and has to deal with that but Golan can speak about what she knows and from her point of view and what she did and that's what you can talk about Gellon. Okay so I think

it's helpful to put this on the the time on the calendar because I think without that we lost. So I would say, we'll go from the beginning. 91 no, 2, no, 3, no, 4, no,

5, no, 6. Now, in that time frame, you have the allegations of Jane who I dispute I don't think you met her until she was... Let's not talk about individuals. Oh, no, I'm just saying Yeah, I'm with you. But there's only... So in that time period, I only aware of her.

I'm aware of... a girl who said, but... And... And... I don't know of any others, and if there are other people who are making allegations about it, I'm not actually aware of that. I may have read them in the...

But I don't know. So I think in the early 90s period, I think I'm fairly confident and I can say that at least as characterised, it's just false. It's just... It didn't happen, as said now. Did it happen?

and did he involve himself? I knew about Jane because I saw her come to the house, but I saw her with her mother. I know that her allegations are that there were orgies, for instance, but the people that she suggests were in her, which he didn't even work for Epstein until 98 or 99. Did he do orgies with those people? I don't know anybody who was there who said that they did.

I certainly didn't see it I can't say that that happened Did she do it with someone else? I don't know The stories really start The allegations really begin with And I think that you have to shift His behaviour

Such as it was Bar, there was one in California Who made an allegation There was a woman who said that she And she's I didn't know about And so I think I would call her the first person I'd be aware of him using his position to start to interrupt you but I just want to

I don't want I don't want to have you I don't think it's helpful for us to have you kind of address each allegation I want you to clear your mind and just tell the truth about it so I'm not saying you're not telling the truth I'm saying just putting aside what other people have said or what their lawyers have said or what they testified to or

you know the rumors in the press push those aside you you were there and so when you go back to that time period, 2.93, 99, 2001, during that time period, what did you see when it comes to young women and massages? I saw him receive massages. He had regular masseuses in the 90s, people who were standard and who traveled with him, and I saw that.

He was living in that Iranian house, and now that I look back, he had I didn't stay there, but I would go to manage the house. I would see women, models or people that he would have come to the house. I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time. That's what I believed. And then subsequently believed that even though she married him, I actually subsequently believed that the baby.

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Cincinnati Insurance, let us make your bad day better. Find an agent at CINFIN.com. What she had was his. Can I interrupt for one second? Yeah, of course. Can I just ask some basic top line questions? Yes. Were you ever in a massage room with him and a masseuse?

Yes. Okay. When was that? Well, he would come in sometimes and he would say, oh, like, give her a massage here, or he would grab my, you know, but not often. I mean, he did come in from time to time. Were you ever in a massage room with him with a masseuse that was naked or giving him any sexual favors?

I never saw that. Okay. That I remember. Okay. Did you ever did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you giving that they gave sexual favors to Epstein? No. Did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein? No.

If you had seen that, what would you have done? Would you have left? I can't even conceive. I can't imagine what I would have done. Sorry. No, that's okay. Okay. Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage? Yes. I mean, when I'd seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse present, but I've seen him on a massage. I see him. Okay. Sorry. Did you ever see him masturbate with a massuse, you know, with a naked woman, either giving him a massage, reporting to give him a massage? I don't remember seeing that Did you give him massages by the way

I mean there's a photo of you rubbing his feet And I think I never I certainly have been in the massage room with him And I have certainly rubbed his feet And when he would talk But I was not a masseuse And I didn't perform massage

On him Did you Um Along over the years, did you pay the masseuses? It was typically not my job, but if there was nobody else. Normally, in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money, and in New York, he would

do that because I wouldn't be in New York when he... I mean, I remember ever paying a masseuse in New York. So it wasn't your job on a regular basis to pay the masseuses, so if there was a masseuse seven days a week it wasn't expected that seven days a week you will be the one handing them money mostly I would not I'm not saying I never did it because that wouldn't

be true but it was not my job to pay him I mostly recall he would either pay them himself he would have money or the houseman and I think some of them would have probably receive checks and so just picking up on what

Mr. Marcus was just asking you did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse, like at the same time? No. And so the testimony, I don't know if there was testimony, but the women who have said that that happened, categorically, that's not true. That is categorically not true. Did you, moving past the, moving into the 2000s. I mean, I just want to say that.

I have been, I mean, I remember, be times when he'd be getting a massage, I would be in the room, I could be on his feet, and somebody else could be on his feet, and we could be talking. So there is that. But that's not, you're not talking about something that's sexual, you're talking about literally just rubbing his feet? Yes. Okay. But I mean, that's not what I'm talking about. No, okay, well, they could be, sometimes the women might be topless who were giving that, so you could say that was sexual in that context. No, I'm talking about the repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with you present and even participating.

No. Did you, in the 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently, when you talked about it yesterday, about how your relationship with misreption changed and was changing, and you ultimately met somebody else. Did you observe,

any, you know, massages or young women giving him massages later on, so after 2000, 2001 time period? I'm sure I did. And was there anything different about what you observed during that period and the 90s as far as the frequency, his conduct towards them? I think the frequency increased. I think he went from one to two in that time period. and but I did not see I have no recollection of ever seeing a child

entering the house and giving him a massage I at that time he had moved me out of the main house I had moved into an office where John Alessi the form of Wattler under the stairs so I had an office

where I would be that was not part of that part of the house. If I saw people, and I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give a massage, that wouldn't be true either, but if I saw someone, let's say, I wouldn't, I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child. Now, specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at the time when she came, if I did see her, and I don't believe I did see her, will meet her at all. But if she did, she was, as she's described herself now, was very mature and looked in her 20s. So could somebody have come that was more mature looking than the

allegation of what she did look like with a photograph that was produced as evidence? Yes. I never recall at any time seeing what I would characterize as a child, coming to give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see people come? I absolutely did. Did I... I just didn't see children. I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child.

And if I had seen a child, I wouldn't... I don't sure what I would have done. Did you... Just talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger picture... Do you... You've finally broken loose from work. Three friends, one T-T-T-T-E.

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At the time that you were in his life, did you was he did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or I don't know what the right way to describe it but when you say to me he was getting massages every single day

right so young women were everywhere multiple massages on some days flew with the women to the island to New York Paris there's always women they're always rubbing him giving him massages I think it's

it would be an understatement to say that that's not normal I agree we've all kind of been part of the Epstein story over the past several years, but you were there at the time, okay? What was it like at the time? Was he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing? Was he protective of how he looked publicly image-wise? At the time, what was it like?

I think if he had been creepy, as you would define and you would expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy, I don't think the women would have been there. I don't think that they thought of him as creepy. And if they did, I never saw them behave like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was, for sure. I found it overwhelming, and I couldn't understand why it was interesting,

because to me it's not interesting. But as he defined it, he found it, invigorating he like being with younger people and not just younger people I'm just saying because they gave him ideas and they were up to date on music and yeah but that's different like i'm just telling you what he was saying yeah i mean i about to me i just found it a drag and difficult and annoying did you um understand i wasn't the only person present so this time in the two thousands you're talking about other people like Sarah Cullen, who was around, who interfaced with him,

I didn't have to, she was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his life. She was running his, she was his assistant. And so I didn't have to. That's a fair point. But move beyond his assistants or the folks that work with him, what about his friends and the people that were associated with him? I don't understand how this is an afterfact of Mr. Epstein. So once he's arrested in Florida, it becomes part of his story,

and then later on he's charged in the Southern District, and then here we are now in 2025. But he was a very successful, hard-working guy, and he had a lot of clients, and he flew with them on vacations and went to the island. I don't understand how he was able to hide this, what seems to me to be some sort of sexual fixation or issue from others. I don't think he did hide it. That's the answer, and I think that the people around him,

myself included, obviously, normalized his behavior on a number of fronts. One, I think it, because it was a self, because so many people saw it, of so many, of such a high caliber down that never seemed to think it were, well, if they thought it was strange, probably, they never said it at the time. So it became sort of like it was his thing, right? He was always around with women. Now you don't, I understand that it's very unattractive, especially in light of everything that we know today. But at the time, the only way I can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and the City, the movie, the show on telly,

where this is, that lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly. There are always these women around. and men who like it, and a lot of the men that I know like women. And so maybe not as overtly as Epstein, but he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior. So what we're discussing now, there's a difference between the criminal behavior and the non-criminal behavior. You don't like the lifestyle.

I concur. I agree, especially now, and I... I own my side of that fence that I was there and that I saw his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or do something. But I don't think back in the 90s or the 2000s, we've had a cultural shift. And the cultural shift, I think, is a very important part of the analysis here. not because I'm trying to justify this because I'm not and I'm not trying to and I absolutely I'm not here to do the poor me program so please don't misunderstand this however in the

in the 2000s when this behavior was going down in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation the women who brought the women who were under age 17 16 I believe if I'm if my memory serves, were actually targets of the investigation and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking, if trafficking was even a law. So you're taking behaviour, and I did introduce him to women. I did, but not underage women.

I understand that there are allegations. I have read them about myself in the school. I can categorically tell you that I have never, never in my life gone to a school to pick up a child. Well, not for this purpose. I mean, like, my stepchildren are all, but, okay, sorry. Just. No, I understand.

Okay, thank you. I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute or anything. But I did look for masseuses. I did. I went to spars. And if I met somebody who said she was in masseuse, I did not check that. credentials. And of course, if she was attractive, I did introduce it, yes. If I met friends who were interested, he was constantly asking me to meet new and interesting people. I did do that.

At the time, I viewed it as, well, first of all, part of my job, I think, or part of my responsibility, if you were, to introduce, because it wasn't just women. If I met somebody who was introducing, like Mary Galman or who I thought he would like, I did that. So it's not exclusively, but he did. And I did do that. So I want to layer on top of what you just said, what we talked about yesterday, more of it, a little bit today already, which is everybody that was around him besides you, like his friends.

So I accept the lifestyle. I've seen the photos, the fact that we're all going to go to the island for a couple days, or flying on a private plane and there's beautiful women everywhere. Is there any, I mean, do you, as you sit here today, think that the people around him didn't also, weren't also of the same place where they were also getting massages where there was sex going on during them or things like that? And I'm obviously asking this because that's what everybody has said. And when you just described what it was like, the very next step from that is everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend. And so it seems kind of far-fetched to say that, yes, that was his lifestyle.

But then when he's taking groups of folks to the island or groups of folks to New Mexico or whatever, that they're all going to church in the morning while he's getting a massage. I hear. I was there, though. And you're talking about very substantial people. And you are extrapolating because the narrative that started in, by the way, not until 2009 is when it really started. So that narrative that was created and then built upon and it just mushroom into what, basically this is like a Salem in witch trial. People go and lost their minds for this thing. I understand

that, but the issue is how do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle because it's like P. Diddy and Redux on TV with Clintons and Trump. I mean, it's bananas.

And while some of it is real, he did do those things. I'm definitely not disputing that. But this was a man they didn't even believe he had a real business. I happened to believe he did. Did he grip? I don't know because I wasn't really in his business,

but this is one man. He's not some, they've made him into this, he's not that interesting. He's a disgusting guy who did terrible things to young kids. You're not going to hear me say what he did. people who are over the age 18, I'm sorry, I'm not going to go there. That's just not what I'm here. I mean, okay. But to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton would suddenly go, oh my gosh, this is like a guy, I'm going to get my body rubbed and have some, like, the men that went

had a massage and maybe did something textual? I'm in. I wasn't in the room. I cannot tell you if that happened. If it did, I never paid for that, just so that we could have. Nobody ever said to me, oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse

and that's if it was a three, uh-uh. I'll be like, okay, TMI, no, I'm not my business. You want to, it's just not. And I didn't want to know. Maybe there's that. But did I, like, think these guys were coming for that? I really don't. If you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast a character,

of which it's extraordinary, some of them in your cabinet, who you value as your co-workers and you know, would be with him if he was a creep, or because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants sexual favors, he will find that. They didn't have to come to Epstein for that. now did some okay I don't know

I wasn't there I didn't see it so once the last time you think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got a massage I want to say

2007 2007? and the frequency at that point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak, would you say? Meaning the number of interactions he was having daily with women and masseuses. I wasn't really in his life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2000. I was with Ted. And we, I was still speaking with Epstein because I was still involved in his, you know, loosely with his, you know, loosely with his.

the houses and the staff and some of the billing. And I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York and Epstein offered me a ride and so Ted dropped me off at St. Thomas and I was on the island, I believe, for one day and one night only. On that visit, I believe, well, I know Yorri would have gotten a massage but there were people there but I did not

that were women and I was just relieved not to be leaving the next day let's take a break We're going to take a break the time is 1131