American court hearing recordings and interviews - Ghislaine Maxwell interview 7/25/2025 end. Day 2. Part 4. (from www.justice.gov/maxwell-interview)

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

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And I know I would characterize originally anyway Mr. Epstein's interested in because obviously the former president. But I never saw him other than that. I saw them be friendly on the plane, but I never, I don't believe, I don't recollect anyway, ever seeing them in any other context. I don't remember him at his house in New York. Like I said, I don't believe he ever went to that island. And I think that was just a, that was a story that did. Do you know one way or the other whether their relationship continued without you? Like when you kind of moved on past Mr. Epstein?

I don't believe so. Why do you say that? You don't please so. I don't think they had a relationship even when I was there. I was, President Clinton liked me. And we got along terribly well. but I never saw that warmth or that, that warmth, like how are you want to characterize it with Mr. Epstein and Mr. President. So I didn't see that. I didn't see any interesting, I didn't see President Clinton being interested in Epstein. He was just a rich guy with a play.

When the Southern District of New York case kind of became public and there was a search warrant of Mr. Epstein's house, there was some sort of painting or picture with Mr. Clinton and like a, blue dress that had been signed. Did you know where he got that picture? First I saw it was in the press. So you never observed that in his brownstone? No. I thought it was hideous.

What's that again? I thought it was hideous. But you had never, so you don't know sitting here today where Mr. Epstein got it, the circumstance of what you got it? No. Do you know of any other gifts? or paraphernalia or art or pictures that former President Clinton gave to Mr. Epstein? No.

I mean, did he maybe get him a gift? I don't know. I have no knowledge of that. And then going back to the topic we were talking about before our last break, well, you said something yesterday at the very beginning of our conversation, that when you first met Mr. Epstein and you ultimately have sex with him that he had

I'll use the word erectile dysfunction but he had issues having sex that's what he told me that's what he told you and then over the years you said sometime in the 90s he started taking testosterone yes but I don't know if it was in the 90s

I don't remember when he started but it was He had patches, testosterone patches. Dermal. Like on his arm? Yes. Okay. And then he was ridiculous because you shouldn't take more than one, but sometimes he had, like, well, I'm like, what are you doing?

It's like on Elfey. Okay. From what you observed or saw or heard, did he continue to have challenges sexually over the years, or do you think that whatever he told you, whatever issue he told you he had was fixed? I think it was a lie. You think it was lying about what?

About his erectile dysfunction. Oh, you mean you don't think he ever had any issues. You think he just told you that? That is what I believe today, yeah. But given if any of the stories are true, you couldn't have had erectile dysfunction, the thing had a prior piss off of Christa. Well, that's one of the reasons for my questions. I mean, you're right.

I mean, and again, we've talked about this a fair amount. But what did, like, the stories of what Massusses, underage and overage have said about him is or you know and what he liked or what he demanded that they do whether it's watching him masturbate or pinching his nipples you know kind of things that that are

unusual do you believe that like do you from what you saw from what you observed from what you did when your relationship with him is that true I well the bulk of what I read he did not have sex So that is consistent with what he told me, actually.

And his masturbating, that is also consistent with what I knew myself. And I'm going to use a bad word. Please. You can use whatever word you need, yes. Blowjob. Okay. He liked blow jobs. That I did observe. And he didn't seem to have any erectile this function for blowjobs.

But sex he didn't have. So when I read the stories about the allegations of sexual, rape, I find that challenging because that was not his modus operandi, from my perspective. But when you read about blow jobs, that would be consistent with kind of would you? That would be consistent, as would masturbation, yes. Did you talk to masseuses or women that either he was in a relationship with or who asked you about working with him, did you tell them, yes, he likes

blow jobs, yes, he'll masturbate in front of you, like, did you have conversations with any of those, with women about what Mr. Epstein liked, or what would make him happy, or things like that? I don't have any memory of telling anybody about that.

I think I may have joked, like saying, oh my God, you know, like from a sex in the city scene, that, you know, he's, but not, I never instruct the question you're asking, me, sorry, let's just be clear. Did I ever instruct anyone how to pressure Mr. Epstein? Your question? No. And you said this earlier, but I want to just, you kind of said it on your own.

I want to ask the question just so I make sure that there's no confusion. When you, over the years... Sorry, can I just... Yeah, of course. I just want to say, the idea that I would have to explain to a woman how to satisfy Mr. Seen is patently observed because he clearly was able to explain himself. He didn't need an interlocular to explain what he liked. He's been doing this obviously with some version of this story his whole life and did not require any help from me. Then, so did you ever observe him having sex with a masseuse, regular intercourse, not a blowjob,

nothing else, where you either walked in or you were in the room? I never saw I have sex with any person. And so how about oral sex? Did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex? Whether you were in the room

or walked in or... I never saw anyone go I've seen a blowjob, no. But you said earlier, you did see him masturbating in front of masseuses. I don't know if I said that. I don't know. Okay, sorry.

Let me ask a question. No, that's fair. That's fair. I said I saw him, I'm sure I saw him in what some people could define a sexual context. Somebody could not have their clothes, or topless, I would say maybe. I could

say that. If I saw him having masturbating when someone was like, I don't recall that, I don't have a specific memory of it. I'm sorry. But no, I'm not. I didn't say that. Okay, I understand. That's fair. sorry I'm not

surely not trying to put words in your mouth no no that's absolutely no it's fine so and you you said I think in passing maybe not in passing or something about about you know whether other people who travel with him

would get massages or so that would when I say that I'm referring mostly to the island or potentially New Mexico but also as Palm Beach residents or even in New York Do you know, do you have a list of names in your head or names that come to mind of people that you know did get massages when they were with Mr. Epstein?

No, there's no list. There's no list of people getting massages. I don't have, I can barely recall all the people. I can barely recall. I struggle to recall actual people that I met. I may have met a long time. I had even forgotten that. about Mr. Kennedy or when you brought it up yesterday, it just came to my mind now. So I don't have and there's no list, there was never a list. There was no, or certainly none that I ever saw, none I ever heard of, none that I ever witnessed,

none that I... There's no list. There's never been a list. And you never heard Mr. Epstein talk about such a list? Never. And he never heard Mr. Arpene suggests that he had some sort of control over somebody because of what he knew about what they had done or had photos of them.

I never heard him. Now, I never heard him ask questions about that. I never heard him. So I've been present many times with masseuses. I never, who presumably could or maybe did massage somebody, I'm not saying that they did, I'm not just in the goddard. I never heard him ask any question of any masseuse who may have given him a massoues who may have given him a massage somebody. massage to a friend. It was on the island or in Palm Beach or anywhere else for that. Any details about that massage?

Does he have a funky foot? No, I never heard that. It would be weird. And I think at one of the bricks today, your lawyer may have showed you something that just came out in the paper, I think, this morning or last night, a letter that is attributed to you associated with this birthday book from 2003 that we talked about yesterday. Did you see that letter? I did say that. Is that, in fact, it just looked like your handwriting or something you wrote? I don't remember the letter. Okay.

But it does look like my handwriting, and it does look like my name, and it looks like it could be real, but I have no memory of writing that, and I don't remember it at all. Do you remember what the birthday book, as they're calling it, would it, like, look like how it was put together? I do. What do you remember about it? I remember it. It was leather bound.

I remember it being about yay big. It was big. So you're saying it looks like it's like over 12 inches, 14, 15 inches? Yes, it was like sort of like folio size, I guess, or something like that. And like this. And it was brown and thick, about this thick. Okay. So just so I understand.

On heavy stock paper. Heavy stock paper, like 14 inches high. looks about right and then around like what a four a four we had a four because it was done on heavy stock paper but I can't remember if it was folio sized paper or it could have just been a four

oh I see so it could have just been letter size or it might have been legal size yes heavy stock paper and so the the folks that submitted letters were given the stock paper or how were the letters or did you like glue or something

the letters to the stock paper Every which way. Some were given a paper and they did their own thing. Some would send me some scrap of paper and I would put it on the thing. Some I didn't get because they went straight to Epstein and I was just told to put them in, like I said. And how was it bound? It went to a professional binder who did it like a book that you'd see in the library. So like the glue that keeps a regular book, a novel that you would read together, it was bound that way? I believe so. I don't think it was stitched, but I don't remember. I mean, it was professionally down by a professional bookfinder. And then after you presented it, or after it was presented to him when he turned 50, did you see the leather-bound book? Did he keep it somewhere in particular? It was in his bookcase, in 71st Street. In Manhattan?

In Manhattan. And did you see it over the years until you stopped going to the brownstone? I saw it. I know I did see it because it was right behind his desk. And after I stopped going, I don't know what happened to it. Do you remember being told or knowing where the book is now? No, but when I received in discovery those pages, I assumed that it had been found when either New York or the island was searched, and I assume that the Southern District of New York had it.

But I think you said yesterday, but just to go over it again in case you remember anything differently, you recall seeing some of the letters in discovery. I do. But you don't recall kind of seeing the leather book start to finish. No, but remember I didn't see all discovery because they were very clever about, you know, I didn't receive all discovery period.

And, in fact, very important items were not given to me at all, including witness testimony from grand jury. So whether, so you don't know one way or the other whether it was part of discovery, you just know that you didn't get it. It wasn't part of discovery that was given to you. Correct. But I'm absolutely sure that the Sun District of New York hid very important pieces of evidence from me.

And I assumed that they leaked in. Because where else would it be? If that's what it is, if it's true. So I've just so I put, I'll say it to you, I've talked a little bit more about it. I said to you yesterday that the purpose of what we did yesterday and today was exactly what we did, which is to have a conversation about Mr. Epstein and about you. And I think it's very challenging to talk about everything we talked about. you know, one and a half days or in just a period of hours.

So I'll talk to Mr. Marcus about kind of what we're going to do next, if anything. There's no, and I don't, I'm not being coy or, I just, I don't know yet. I don't know. So we, I have a lot of, we have some work to do. We'll do it with your lawyers to accept we have questions or follow up. and this has been very helpful I I think it's it was you know who kind of said you wanted to talk but but it we gladly accept it so so I do appreciate you being willing to meet with us and and I expect that we'll that we'll be in touch soon this concludes the recorded

proper interview of Miss Maxwell. The time is 12.05 p.m. on Friday, July 25th.