American History Hit - Bobby Kennedy: Assassination of a Future President

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

Bobby Kennedy's 1968 presidential campaign had an aura around it. Its urgency, idealism and raw emotion connected with a nation in turmoil. But his life was cut short, just as his brother's had been, by an assassin's bullet.Don's guest to help capture this remarkable man and campaign is Patricia Sullivan, Professor of history at the University of South Carolina and author "Justice Rising: Robert Kennedy’s America in Black and White".Please note this episode contains outdated strong language which has been used for historical context and accuracyProduced by Freddy Chick. Edited by Aidan Lonergan. Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.American History Hit is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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which has been used for historical context and accuracy. That night at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, standing in that crowd cheering, you're part of something big. A movement, a mission, a blooming spirit of hope, a presidential campaign that had stirred the soul of a nation. And then, as suddenly as it began, it was over. In the early morning moments of June 5th, 1968, in a place once famously known for hosting the Academy Awards,

now to be eternally remembered for bullets and blood. And another Kennedy brother, fallen. Gasping for life. Hello and greetings. This is American History Hit. I'm Don Wildman. Glad you're listening. Today's episode is a tale of an almost presidency, a presidential campaign, which ended in tragic circumstances, similar in some ways to the death of the candidate's own brother, in whose former administration he had faithfully served. I'm speaking, of course, of Robert F. Kennedy,

who, like his famous sibling, died of an assassin's bullet. Kennedy's short campaign for the presidency happened in a crucible. It was 1968. There was the ongoing civil rights struggle as black, brown, and indigenous Americans stood their ground against discrimination and poverty. Massive riots occurred across the nation in Watts, 1965, after Malcolm X was murdered, in Detroit, Newark, Buffalo, 1967, and in 68, of course, after Dr. King met his sudden end on a Memphis balcony. These horrific events of civil unrest in those years

seemed to finally culminate in a fateful evening at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, where Robert Kennedy and his supporters celebrated victory in the California primary. Most predicted he would secure the Democratic nomination later that summer and face off against his brother's arch rival. Richard Nixon, a raise seen by many as redemption for his family, in some ways for his brother's killing. But over the months, Kennedy's candidacy evolved into something greater, something more, an evolution politically, yes, but also an evolution of a man, into an important cultural icon, one endeavoring to heal a fractured nation. Alas, it was not to be. We discussed this campaign and what led up to it with Professor Patricia

Sullivan, an historian of the civil rights movement, and author of Justice Rising, Robert Kennedy's America in Black and White. Welcome, Patricia. Nice to meet you. Great to meet you, Don. Please call me Pat. Okay, thank you. What was RFK campaigning for in 1968 during these primaries? He doesn't enter the race until February, March, because everybody assumes Johnson will run for re-election, right? That's right. I mean, it was really a continuation of what he's been doing and concerned about, you know, as a senator and prior to that. But I think the timing of his entering has a lot to do with what's happened. Vietnam and in the country and the nature of President Johnson's leadership or failed leadership, some would say. So it's a convergence of events that prompting to finally enter. But he's

continuing on doing what he's been doing as a senator and as a national figure. RFK, what does that stand for? Robert Francis Kennedy? Robert Francis Kennedy. That's right. One, forget, you got JFK and RFK. I mean, there's a lot of FKs going on. I should take a moment just to say, these are extraordinary times we're talking about. I mean, I was a small person in those days, but I do remember how crowded the events were. It was very, very difficult times. And not only, as I say in the opening about the civil rights movement, but Vietnam is going on. There's all sorts of trouble happening all the time.

And only five years before this, a president was assassinated, which is something we can't really conceive of these days. It hasn't happened for so long. But into this fray, really, is what RFK is about. He's jumping into this as a healing force. That's kind of the purpose of his campaign, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, and as someone who can, it's a pivotal point, as you mentioned, the 60s, a pivotal decade, a pivotal point in our history.

And for all of the violence and disruptions, I mean, the transformations that really sparked by the civil rights movement with the sit-ins in 1960, President Kennedy's administration. I mean, tremendous energy and a tremendous sense of possibility. Yes. You know, breaking down segregation, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, and at the same time, as you've indicated, cities are exploding, you know, starting really in 64 with Harlem and then Watts is huge.

It's a moment of trying to imagine a future, building on the strengths of what's happened in the 1960s. And I think Robert Kennedy, as someone who moves through this decade and was so much a part of it, given his place in public life, you know, it was a sense of urgency, but also possibility, you know, to really build on this and a kind of faith in the capacity of America to actually move forward and overcome these huge deep problems and build a full of democracy in a better future. Kennedy is waiting on LBJ. I imagine there were backroom discussions. I mean, indications at least that LBJ was dropping out. Or was RFK as surprised as the rest of us? Totally surprised, totally surprised. I mean, he enters the race on March 16th, and he hesitates for a number of reasons.

But I think one is he didn't want to just run and bust up the Democratic Party and just create, you know, even political and understood, not in a personal way. But after the Tet Offensive, which, you know, it really demonstrates that America is not winning in Vietnam. So it really, it really explodes the cover on that. And then the current and commission report, on the urban uprisings that basically put the blame on our country, on white Americans and on a failure of leadership. So those two things, it really pushed him in. And of course, after Ted, Johnson was really weakened by that. So that's March 16th. And then on March 31st, Johnson pulls out of the race. And again, for him, I think it's a combination of pressures. But I think Robert Kennedy, as they said, it was his worst nightmare, Robert Kennedy entering a presidential race.

And for Bobby Kennedy, it kind of took away the person he was challenging. And but, you know, he maintained his footing and his campaign went forward, of course. But he was a senator from New York elected in 1964. He's been serving since 65. He's not even through his first term. Right. Did he have the intention originally of running for president or not? I think what he was always said, and I think it's his actions demonstrate this.

I think his age were thinking about 72. You know, 1972. I think he thought he would run someday. But 68, you know, I think he went day to day. And as he said once, you know, once, you know, your brother is, you know, you go day by day. And again, it was such a fractious time and uncertain time. And he's, you know, he's a senator, as you point out.

He's holding hearings on poverty. He's going around the country doing field hearings. So, you know, I think he was looking towards later. and not particularly 68. Because it just, it wasn't possible to do it and do it effectively. Johnson was powerful. He was a, you know, and his ratings were high until, you know, Vietnam really started to turn. Right.

People forget how radical his campaign was. I mean, they're sort of blinded by the Kennedy in this. It was for racial equality, economic justice, and to bring an end to the Vietnam War. All of these were extreme positions in this day. good point, you know, because they had, he had a lot of the wind at his back. I mean, there was so much, again, the civil rights movement, the student movement, the anti-war movement. You know, and it was sort of a testing to see how this, well, not when he just did it, but I think there was a feeling that there was tremendous energy in this country. And he was also looking at the divisiveness and trying to help the country move beyond that. And again, this is the 60s. I think people had a different sense of that possibility and faith. And I think he really felt that he was tapping into something deep in the American spirit. And the divisiveness was something of deep concern, you know, in the wake of civil rights and watch. It is really important, to your point, to remember this time as differently than the ones we live in today.

I mean, you had America at the peak of its superpower, basically, just beginning to get towards the 70s when all that sort of start to be calling question. But the economy was powerful, certainly in the first half of the 60s. there was a sense of great possibility, which went into, you know, what happens with Johnson and the Great Society. All that is in the air these days. And like you said, there's as much positive as negative in terms of societal changes that are happening here. So he's really the man for the times. I mean, it's, it's really remarkable. I remember that as just a kid. You know, his young face and all the sort of Kennedy legacy going on there was just an extraordinary moment. And And so much, as we will discuss in this conversation, happens within his candidacy.

It's really interesting. They end up making a Robert Redford movie based on him, the candidate. It was such a time. So let's talk about what he's fighting against, these embedded inequalities and racism. He's basically speaking to white people about things needing to change, right? That's right. That is really with them. You know, I think what he came to see during this period is, you know, I mean, the South was

front and center, segregation, the violent resistance, school desegregation, the rest. But then the city start, you know, he even saw before that the deep poverty and segregation generations in northern cities, you know, across the country. So that racial, our history, the reckoning with our history was front and center for him. And it expressed itself in the south, in the north. And the inability of most white Americans to understand this, you know, they're reacting to what's happening. And so he and others, like King and other people in our public life, are really working to bring this to the attention of the country and white Americans. And, yeah, and of course, you know, white students are active. So there's this opening towards doing that.

But as he says, said, and knew it was essential for the country to kind of confront this so we could move forward and really deal with these issues in a constructive way. Yeah, it's, it's, there are very. famous moments in this evolution, primarily on race politics, really. I mean, his meeting with James Baldwin and other black cultural leaders, May 24th is back, this is back in the 63 before he's running. Yeah. He has a, there's a famous conversation with Jerome Smith, who's a young bus rider back in the Freedom Rides, this polemic against the government. I mean, that whole period, these freedom rides and all that sort of thing is really an extraordinary idea in this country where so many students, especially and other people are going down to the south to do with voter registration.

Kennedy is aware of all the stuff, but he's going to make a great move. I mean, he's going to develop attitudes during this time period that really change, right, about race in America. You know, I mean, his Justice Department that he built from the get-go, from the time they got in 61, to really, you know, put the power of the Justice Department behind enforcing voting rights laws that were on the books. And so he's engaged in a very direct way. I mean, his Justice Department is extraordinary. And they connect up with Bob Moses and people in Mississippi. And they see the limits of that. I mean, the power of these white southern officials from the state level to the local

to just block everything. And then his attention, you know, he goes to Harlem, East Harlem in 1961. He starts to face the urban realities of segregation. So he's exposed. But then how he grows in that understanding and what he can do in his capacity as Attorney General is really an important part of the story. I mean, I think there's a real evolution that people think there's a big transformation at some point. But I think there's an evolution and a growth that's really important to understanding him. He becomes Attorney General during Kennedy's presidency. How does that time shape him? It often is overlooked that these years are formative for Robert Kennedy.

and we see him responding to the problems, the challenges in the South, because the mass movements are taking place. And people are pushing for the vote to insurrogation. And he makes that a priority of the Justice Department. He quadruples a number of lawyers in the Civil Rights Division. And they see what's the basic right to vote, how it is totally denied in all kinds of ways, terror, violence, lawlessness. So that's an opening for that. And then he begins to travel around during the campaign they were traveling, he saw the poverty in cities and the segregation in cities and they crushed lives. And so he's set up a program to try to help deal with that through several agencies. So he's seeing, and then through these programs he's learning and about resistance,

about race. And by the 63, he's saying that this problem is huge. And if you think it's going to be solved just by legislation, I mean, it is deep. And so. So he just has that understanding through that experience as attorney general and his brother's top advisor, you know, the violence around the deserogation of Ole Miss and all the rest and is prepared as he moves on into the next part of his life to really begin to continue to face that and try to figure out how to bring the country to deal with it. On this show, of course, we always talk about the 1860s and 70s as the time of so many changes. in the Constitution and so forth, but this is 100 years later, so this is the centennial this. How much were the, I don't remember it being articulated in that fashion, though. How much were the Kennedy's aware of this time period as being so meaningful? Completely. I mean, they, first of all, they're both students of history. And, you know,

when JFK gave his famous civil rights speech in 1963, which he and Bobby drafted minutes before he went on television, was right after the show done at the University of Alabama with George Wallace. It's been 100 years. years, the president said, since the Emancipation Proclamation, they're very mindful of that, and of reconstruction. And so this, this comes up. And so, and of course, the civil rights movement, free by 63, you know, they're pushing that to the front, that 100 years since the Emancipation proclamation. So it's very much, and it's, yeah, as you say, it's really ironic. A century later, this is, in the center, dividing the country again, the possibility for building on what happened,

the promises of reconstruction. So, yeah, the historical arc is pretty amazing. I'll be back with more American history after this short break. In 68, how much is he dividing himself from the so famous trauma of everything that's happened five years ago versus what's ahead for them? I mean, how much of it is he serving the legacy of his brother at this point? I think he's a person about the future. And he and his brother work together. He grows from that experience.

And your point about the trauma of the assassination, I mean, that impacts him in all kinds of ways. But he's moving forward. And I think the assassination of his brother really taught him about life, just the fragile nature of life. And it becomes more existential in his thinking and his approach. So I think it doesn't free him in a way that it's a positive thing, but it frees him in a way that he is much more able to face the deep problems. and to use his position, what he knows, his, I won't say power, but he has an ability to move through this country in this moment politically that is unique. Yeah.

Legacy of what they attempted to do around race and civil rights, but on a larger scale, because the country is moving, things are changing. The race we're about to talk about it. I mean, sadly ends after just a few months. So I want to just put a pin in what we were talking about there for a moment. He was the Attorney General under his brother. brother's administration. That's an extraordinary powerful position, of course, as we know, but also it's, he has a deep knowledge of the levers of power, the legal levers of power

in this country. It's an extraordinary opportunity he has because he understands so much more than perhaps your average presidential candidate. He really knows how the levers work. So 1968, the campaign officially begins in Indiana. Who is he running against in these Democratic primaries? Well, actually, he launches the campaign. Yeah, the first primaries in Indiana. You know, every declares on March 16th, he does a two weeks, visits 16th states, just to barnstorming to get out there, get the energy, be present. And then Indiana, as you point out, he runs in the primary. And in that state, that's a really important state because, you know, people look at him as someone who, you know, black voters are completely, almost completely in his camp. But Indiana,

has 9% of their population is African-American. It's a state that has southern whites who've migrated in, ethnic, but it's a white state. So going into that, someone said, you know, it's a risk. The whole campaign is a risk. You know, but this was a proving ground. And even though Johnson had, by this time, Johnson is out, but he had a favorite son, the governor of the state, Ran again, ran as the favorite son candidate, as a sort of a placeholder for Ubert Humphrey. Right. And then he had Gene McCarthy, who'd been in the race since November of 67. So that was quite a lineup. And that campaign, I mean, he travels through the state. And he wins. Of course, in the midst of that campaign, Martin Luther King is assassinated in the midst of the Indiana.

That is one of the major thing that happens during that is the assassination of Martin Luther King. And this is April 4th, 1968. RFK delivers a very famous speech in response. Where does he do that? And what does he say in that speech? He delivers that speech in Indianapolis. He's on his way to Indianapolis from campaigning over there. And he learns that King has been shot before he got on in planning. It was in the predominantly black neighborhood part of Indianapolis. John Lewis helped organize the event. And he arrives there at night, you know, late. He's on the back of a flatbread truck. And the people, I mean, this is for us to understand today, most of the people had not heard that King was assassinated. Because of the way we communicate news back then. Nobody had cell phones. You know, they're waiting in this place. And so Robert Kennedy announces that to this crowd of mostly African, but there's white people there as well, you know, it's just shock. And then he just, the gasp, I mean, and just when you think of that moment,

and then he just speaks extemporaneously. What happened? What king meant? You know, how appealing to people to know. not lose the faith. And one of the things he says in that speech, you know, he says, I understand he was filled by a white man and if black people want to be angry as white people, but, but my, I have a family member, a family member, he said, who was also assassinated by a white person. And that's the only time in public that RFK mentioned his brother's assassination.

Yeah. John Lewis describes this moment and that he just had everybody with him. and just appealed to what King represented, non-violence, peace, hope in the country, and that black and white working together to move our country forward. And it's just an extraordinary moment, you know, 10 minutes, which is recorded. I have some very sad news for all of you, and that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight in Memphis. He has such an empathetic tone to his voice.

It's just a warm tone, and it does immediately. smack of a sense of love, honestly, is what you feel from him and from the audience, which at that moment is extraordinary to feel. Maybe I'm projecting, but it seems palpable. And I think your point, I mean, I think his sense of tragedy, you know, having lost his brother that way, just connected him in a visceral way, you know, not in a performative way. It's a sad currency, sad capital to have, but that's what he has going into. People know what he's been through and the whole country went through it with him.

And the empathy, though. You're pointing about the empathy. is genuine. The irony, of course, is that Robert Kennedy, as Attorney General, was part of wiretapping king. I mean, the two men were allies, but never friends. Yeah, well, especially in that earlier period. And, you know, there's a whole story behind that. I mean, I mean, he would disagree that that was the wrong thing to do. But Hoover, I mean, the power of Jade Gahuever, and how Bobby Kennedy pushed back on that more than any other Attorney General prior or after. but on this, they had evidence that King was talking to Stanley,

all this backstory, and they were trying to get a civil rights bill forward. So, you know, and Hoover could go. So it was navigating that. And, okay, you know, you can have it. And he put a time limit on, like three months. And that was up. JFK was dead by the time that was up. But he did authorize the wiretap.

And that's different from bugging hotel rooms. People should understand that, which, you know, that's a whole other story that the Kennedys were not at all involved in. But, yeah, so there is that piece. But, again, the power of the FBI and his relationship with King, though, that's one of the things I found really interesting when working on this book, how that evolved because they weren't, you know, they didn't really see each other. They were kind of, from 65 forward, they are aligned in their concerns about the urban uprisings, in their concerns about poverty, in their concerns about the war in Vietnam. And, you know, they really are sympathical and in ways that they both are sort of connected, you know, not talking, but in a way that is really powerful to see how that relationship moves

across the decade and what they both come to share and represent. Was RFK aligned with LBJ, all the Great Society programs? Did he agree with how those were being deployed? He testified in enthusiastic support of the war on poverty, but the war on poverty, as Martin Luther King said in 1966, was baili or skirmish. And they had hearings in a fascinating series of hearings that Ribacoff and Kennedy chaired, trying to expose the poverty across the country and the need for a more robust and organized attack on poverty and communities. And in that context, Robert Kennedy helps establish a Bedford-Stuyvesant project,

which is, you know, community-engaged, community-run. programs that deal with the particular issues that the community faces, within that case, it's support of federal money and some private money. So, you know, by 66, certainly, they saw that Johnson was, you know, was not a war on poverty. I mean, important programs were enacted, but they were just, you know, there were no jobs included in these programs ever. There was job training for jobs that weren't there by 67. And so that's an interesting piece of the history. And And King testified before that committee and just said it's famously that riots with the language of the unheard. That's in 1966.

Isn't it extraordinary to reflect on how different people thought then of what the government could do in an activist mode? I mean, people today, certainly young people just have no idea how it felt in the 60s about the government fixing things. There was great enthusiasm. there was a belief that things would happen. And whether you agree with those programs or not, the world is an entirely different place today than it was then. I mean, you have to imagine incredibly difficult slums and really horrible conditions in the cities

that were being reacted to by the government. And we, at least my parents, I know, put their faith in the fact that the government could do something about that. Totally. But I think the thing about King and Kennedy and people come here, the civil rights, like Bob Moses,

and others, the active engagement of communities through voting, organizing, to put the kind of, make the kind of demand that makes programs responsive to their needs. So yes, the programs are a major opening. The federal government is taking some responsibility. Yes. But then what the programs look like, how they serve people, how much appropriations they get versus a war in Vietnam. Yeah, it's all in play. And you're so correct. It was really promising time and shows there's no substitute for that. You know, the government of the people and people responding to the government and helping it to respond to their needs in a constructive way. Yeah. The next three primaries after Indiana are Washington.

RFK wins with 62 percent of the vote there. Nebraska, he wins again, 51 percent closer contest. And Oregon. McCarthy won that one with 43 percent. It's important to note that Eugene McCarthy was really, he staked out the ground of anti-Vietnam for years before that. He really, you know, he had a huge support among college students. Who can't vote, by the way, the 21 and it's not 18 until 1971. But then comes California.

Let's talk about this race in California, a much more conservative state than it is today. It wasn't the pure blue that we know it today. What's its stake out there for him? This is it. You know, I mean, after losing Oregon, the first race of Kennedy law, ever lost. You know, California is the ball name. And so that's that's that's that's that. And I think your point about McCarthy is important that he was his vocal, you know, he came at against the war in six, end of 67 vocally and, and, and president, no racial policy, no

civil rights agenda, no anti-poverty agenda. So I think that's, you know, Kennedy was not, you know, brought that to it. And McCarthy was pretty much a one issue. important issue, but with everything going on to the country at that point, there were certainly other things that needed attention. But so California is everything, yeah. Yeah. Watts happened the year R.K. was elected as senator. What has been his reaction to the rioting in the cities over these years? Well, he had, you know, after, I mean, Watts was such a turning point because it was huge, and it really put this issue on the table of the cities and what, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and.

the, you know, discontent is a mild word. But his, so the response to Watts was across the board calls for law and order. You know, that was when that became a big cry. And, you know, King went to Watts and really saw this as central. We have to deal with these urban issues. And Robert Kennedy was asked about Watts and this law and order theme. And he said, how can you ask the Negro in Bedstein Harlem, where he's, to obey the law when the law is always used against him. Black people have a different relationship to the law. So understanding that and using that platform, not to, you know, okay, got to deal with what happened and restore, you know, kind of order there, but that's, you have to look at what's behind

these things. And he really understood the issues of the criminal justice system, of police brutality as being a trigger for these uprisings that really, really, response to the awful conditions that people are living. It was sincere. That was the, that was the feeling that people had. It was more than just a pandering for the vote. It was a genuine understanding and sincerity about we get it. This needs to change, and I have some ideas to change it. It's a tough political position if you're looking to win votes. But again, he had a faith in a, A, that you had to face this issue, that it was going to get, you know, it was just deep. And it was a legacy of our past.

And I think he had a faith in Americans to come along if they could see. You know, I mean, he's going into these cities. He sees the conditions. And just to help people see and see this as an American problem for the country. And a problem that, you know, white Americans needed to take the lead in solving in terms of, you know, supporting policies and the rest. There's a photo that my producer has sent me of RFK campaigning in the Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles. You can see in just his posture. He is utterly approachable.

He's right there on a flatbed, as we say, a humility, which is, and that's a Kennedy we're talking about. I mean, maybe it's the younger brother thing, but it's not how people saw him in the JFK administration, by the way. He was a real pit bull. I mean, he was understood to be a real gnarly guy back then. I always think of, like, how Rahm Emanuel was depicted in the early days of the Obama administration, real prickly, you know.

That's how RFK was seen back in those days. but this is a different man who's running for president and hands outstretched and shaking and a smile on his face. There's a demeanor of empathy, as we've said. I guess that's the main theme of this conversation, isn't it? Empathy and comfort. These are people. You know, I mean, Kennedy, you know, just what did Mary? Right, I almost say.

He went, he saw, he listened, he grew. He's been wandering all over the country for the past eight years and going into cities, going into urban areas. And so there's tremendous empathy and sort of connectedness, I think. I mean, after the Watts Rebellion, he helped the Watts Writers workshop was set up by Bud Schulman and other people. Kennedy contributed to that. I mean, he, you know, so there's a genuine sort of feeling of association as well as empathy, as you say. And their response to him, as you mentioned in that photo, people are just very much engaged with him, comfortable with him and believe him. trust him. So, yeah, what's his. He wins. He wins the California primary with 46% of the vote on June 4th,

1968. And this is when the fateful things happen. Before we dive into the events of this assassination, just listeners register what we've said. Imagine this moment that this man has attained, where he gives a sense of hope to a nation which is riven and people are seeing in Kennedy a real chance. there's a way out of a lot of the problems that we have only to have it all and in the early morning hours of June 5th, 1968. I'll be back with more American history after this short break. Kennedy was making a victory speech. 46% of the votes still a very close election, so people didn't know where this was going to go exactly.

And so it was a big celebration at the Ambassador Hotel. My thanks to all of you, and now it's on to Chicago and let's win there. He's standing at the podium and he's giving this victory speech, at which point he thanks to supporters and heads back into the kitchen. And I'll throw it to you, Pat, to take it from there. Yeah, so he's walking through this kitchen, shaking hands with people working in the kitchen and talking actually to a radio reporter about what's going to happen next. And Humphrey will be on the sea.

And then boom. And the reporters is, oh, my God, he's been shot. I mean, it happens just like that. And chaos in the kitchen and people jumping on to, you know, Sir Hans, Sir Hand, just in a flash. And he's, you know, lying on the floor, the famous story of the busboy who had served him dinner earlier at night, leaning down next to him, putting rosary beads on his hat through his fingers. And then Ethel, you know, finding her way in to be by her husband's side. I mean, the scene is just, and he asks, is everybody okay? while he's lying there, is everybody okay?

His close aide, Paul Schrad, was the first one hit. And then he is unconscious and they take him. Right. There are bullets ricocheting around. He's really firing in different directions. I did not know that. He was conscious enough at that moment to ask if people were okay. Is everybody okay? All these years.

Or has anyone hurt? Yeah. Really? So let's talk about Sirhan, Sirhan. A Palestinian brought up in Georgia. What was his beef with RFK? That's a deep, complicated story. You know, he did support aid to Israel.

But, you know, there's a lot of confusion around Sir Hans, Sirhan. And he did fire. But I did go out and interview Paul Schrad, who was, again, UAWI, who worked in a campaign here in California. And, you know, there's many people think, and they said that there was another gunman. I mean, I just want to put that out there. People can go read. And there's some interesting stuff to read. There's a lot of conspirator.

But just thoughtful assessments. So what was his beef? I mean, that would be the explanation since he is a Palestinian. And ironically, Kennedy had traveled to the Middle East in 1948. You know, he saw the problems there. He was supportive towards Israel having a state, but the refugee problem of Palestinians, he'd gone back with his brother. That was it in 51.

He visited refugee camps. And Sir Hansa Heron was in a refugee camp as a child. So, yeah, I mean, there's a lot to sort out around that, I think. Yeah, we're not far from the Six-Day War, 1967, against the Arab neighbors. You know, pensions are very inflamed as part of the world. That's right. And many are surprised today that Suran Surin is still alive. He was convicted of this murder on April 17, 1969, sentenced to death at that moment,

but the death penalty is then declared unconstitutional in California, violation of cruel and unusual punishment. And therefore, his sentence is commuted to life without parole. It has not been... Yeah. He's come up a few. 17 times he's come up for parole. And Paul spread.

Al Lewenstein was also involved in this early on before he was gone and really trying to get to the bottom of what really happened. But, but yeah. But he's still in prison. You're right for all these years. And has he ever come out and explained himself? No, not that. I mean, not that I know of. He says he didn't.

Isn't that weird? That to me seems the weirdest part of all. Well, you know, if you read into it, it's, yeah. But again, I said I came all the way out here to interview Paul Schrad, who was the first one hit UAW guy, not a conspiracy theorist. There are a lot of questions still looming around what happened and how it happened. And if, you know, but the key point is it did happen. Right. And this is not a conversation about that conspiracy theory.

It's about the effect of his death and the hope of his campaign. Nonetheless, it is worth, I will tell people it's worth looking into because it's as confusing as JFK's assassination if you want to go there. No, it's true. Counterfactually, if I may, had this not happened, Robert Kennedy was definitely going to win the nomination after winning California. I think so. And everyone I've interviewed for the book who were involved and reading, yes, it's clear that he would have definitely. At which point, he would have gone into a presidential campaign against Richard Nixon. I mean, how weird was that going to be?

The Kennedy's again versus Nixon. It's incredible to think of. No, that's right. And again, as a historian, does that wishful thing? thinking, I think he would have been a very strong challenger. Yeah. And then you end up with all the other implications, the fact that in order to win, Nixon really had to woo the Southern Democrats and take the South away from the Democrats through that whole thing. And that begins the, you know, eventually the war on crime and all these things

that happen. You can imagine being handled much differently under a Robert Kennedy administration, never mind Vietnam and all of those things. He had a mind and a heart that was capable of dealing with these problems and these challenges on a much more elevated level than I think they were actually handled. True, and bringing people along. I mean, bringing people along, I mean, engaging so much energy in this country in that direction and helping, I think, to build. And your point about Nixon, Nixon won by dividing.

Kennedy's aspiration was to transcend to unite and really believing that's not easy, it's hard work, but American people can see. can move in this direction. So just such different messages. And one thing about Nixon as a historian of, he started the Southern Strategy in 1960. I mean, he gave an address in South Carolina and Columbia at the end of the campaign,

really appealing to white southerners to come over to the Republican Party because, you know, they were losing the Democratic Party on civil rights. So, yeah, but to contemplate that, it's sort of like Hoover versus Roosevelt, you know, what would have happened if Hoover won? You know, these two very different ways of thinking about America moving forward at a moment, a pivotal historical moment.

Yeah, interesting. It's very microcosmic this particular election that was not to be in terms of the division or unity of this country. Everything that happened with Robert Kennedy's candidacy, short as it was, was about bringing people together. That was really the theme and the tenor of this entire candidacy versus Nixon, which was indeed exactly the opposite. It leaves you deeply sad all the possibilities that might have been. One thing I'd like to mention is, you know, after his assassination, Gene Stein and Birch Plumpton interviewed lots of people who were on the train when they took him back to Washington and just people who were engaged with Kennedy in his life. And one of them was James Baldwin. And of course, Baldwin had that famous meeting in 63 and everything.

You know, he sat there for three hours. People, you know, it was real tense. And it really reflected where the country was at in a lot of ways. And what Baldwin said about Bobby Kennedy, He talked about those assassinations in the 60s, you know, five, starting with Medgar Evers, JFK, Malcolm, King, and Kennedy. But he said about Bobby, he was someone in the 20th century with enough passion, energy, and patience. Think about that. Passion, energy, and patience. And what he said about JFK and Robert Kennedy, they had minds that could be reached.

And what that means in terms of a political, then there's conversation, there's openings, his possibility. And he said, and that's gone. I guess 1970, the Senate and president of the president for two years. But I think James Baldwin's reflection in that moment in 1970, not in the heat of battle, but looking at the decade and what someone like Robert Kennedy represented is insightful. Always good to have James Baldwin have the last words. Professor Patricia Sullivan, a historian of civil rights movement and author of Justice Rising, Robert Kennedy's America in Black and White.

Thank you so much for this conversation. I'm really grateful. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much. Hey, thanks for listening to American History Hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays,

all kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode. By hitting like and follow, you help us out, which is great. But you'll also be reminded. minded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American History Hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support.