American History Hit - Central Park: What Lies Beneath

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Central Park is an oasis of nature in New York City, amidst the countless skyscrapers and gridded streets of Manhattan. Over 800 acres of sweeping fields, shaded pathways and picturesque vistas attract more than 42 million visitors a year. It was created to give free and equal access to recreational space for all. But, as Don hears from Leslie Alexander, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Professor of History at Rutgers University, underneath Central Park are the remains of Seneca - a village of African-American, Irish and German communities, whose inhabitants were forced from their homes to make way for the park’s construction in 1857.Produced by Benjie Guy. Mixed by Thomas Ntinas. Senior Producer: Charlotte Long.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts, and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To the west, looking down 83rd Street, you can just make out the Hudson River and New Jersey beyond. Encased on all sides by New York's famous gridded streets, Central Park is an oasis of nature between Midtown to the South and Harlem to the north on the island of Manhattan. It is the jewel of New York City, spanning 843 acres of sweeping fields, shaded pathways, and picturesque vistas that draw in 42 million people every year. It is the product of Enlightenment philosophy and ideals of free and equal access to social, cultural, and recreational resources. But underneath this monument to enlightenment are the remains of Seneca, a village of African-American, Irish, and German communities, whose inhabitants were, forced from their homes to make way for the construction of Central Park in 1857. Hello and welcome to American History Hit. I'm Don Wildman. My guest today is Dr. Leslie

Alexander, author, activist, professor, indeed Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., professor of history at Rutgers University. What an honor to have you on American History Hit. Hi, Leslie. Hi, thanks so much for having me. You describe yourself as I checked your website as a specialist in early African-American and African diaspora history, late 18th, early 19th century, black culture and resistance movements. Well, that makes you the ideal expert voice for our subject at hand, which is a really interesting one. A story of Seneca Village in New York City, this extraordinary, primarily African-American community that once existed on lands now encompassed by what is now Central Park, right? Yes. It's a community that, as you said,

was predominantly African-American, but just slightly south of what we believe are sort of the official boundaries of Seneca Village. There was also a really lively and active Irish and German community as well. So Seneca Village, as I understand, existed from about 1825 to 1857, I think, are the dates. So before we get into the profound implications of this thing and the complications, drop me into a day in 1830, 1840, the heyday of this community. What was it like there? So what we do know is that, as you said, the late 1830s, early 1840s was probably Seneca village's heyday.

I think one of the tricky questions is trying to determine exactly how many people were in the community and who they actually were. And part of that is because we believe that Seneca Village operated as sort of a way station and sometimes even an endpoint for fugitives who were. seeking freedom from slavery in the South during that period. And so the question of the demographics and the population of Seneca Village remain, I think, sort of a fascinating historical question, because we do believe that a large portion of the community at various points would have been composed of fugitives, either there on a temporary basis or therefore longer periods of time.

But we also know that the community was composed of everyday working class folks, right, who are constructing churches, they're constructing schools, they're building homes. And according to the available records, it also appears that they have really productive and, in fact, probably quite attractive gardens that they're using to allow the community to sustain itself. It was really an established community, really. I mean, this is a piece of real estate. This is being sold as lots. These are independent houses. This is a nice place with families, children in the streets, churches, schools, cemeteries even, right? Yes, absolutely.

So it began, of course, as a massive plot of land that was owned by an individual landowner who decided in 1825 to parcel it off and sell it in small lots. And so in 1825, members of an organization known as the African Society, which was a benevolent mutual aid organization in the black community, began buying up plots of land and establishing a community there. And as you said, it was a very lively, active community from all that we're able to determine. There were at least three churches that existed in the community. There were a couple of schools, one of which actually operated out of one of the church. and there were also cemeteries. And of course, that's particularly significant because it means that under Central Park today still remains sacred burial grounds. I moved to New York in 1984, and my first apartment was on 86th in Columbus. Very desirable neighborhood. Why? Because it's right near

Central Park. Had no idea that there had been anything other than not open land, farmland in that area at this time. Right. Describe for me the general lay of the land in those days. I mean, New York, you know, as a metropolis, is only reaching as high as 14th Street. It's way down there south. Everything above there in the early 1800s is farmland, right? Yes, that is true for the most part, that particularly above, like, maybe what's now 54th Street,

was largely sparsely populated farmland, extending all the way up to the top of Manhattan Island. So what is significant is the decision to sort of parcel off the land and sell smaller individual lots that allowed for the formation of a community. But for the most part, it is prior to 1825 pretty sparsely populated agricultural land. So a white farmer, am I right? John Whitehead, as I understand it, appropriately named. Yes. Decides to, I guess, speculate on his land, right? He decides to split it up and sell it off. Yes.

And along comes an African-American to buy these lands. This would have been a very rare situation in those days. Yeah. One of the things that continues to fascinate me is that obviously the original owner, John Whitehead, is aware of the fact that African-Americans are buying up the land. It begins slowly at first. Andrew Williams is the first one to come, and he buys a couple of lots, and then Epiphany Davis comes, and he buys another like five lots. So it starts relatively slowly, but it becomes pretty clear that there's a steady march of black folks who are coming from lower Manhattan who are buying off the lots. And I remain fascinated by the fact that John Whitehead chose to sell all of the lots to members of the black community. It's a bit of a mystery, to be honest, but it's raised questions for me about whether John Whitehead was just simply in a financial situation where he needed to sell the land or if perhaps he had, abolitionist leanings himself. Well, these buyers of those plots must have been talking to each other.

And there was a real movement. Obviously, we'll talk about this in a moment, towards land ownership as a very important part of African-American experience to this day, but certainly in the early 1800s. Why was it called Seneca Village? How soon did they name it that? Yeah, it's interesting. This remains, again, a bit of a historical mystery as to what the purpose of the name Seneca village actually was. For a long time, people assumed that it was somehow sort of a nod towards

or an acknowledgement of the fact that the community had existed on what was previously Native American land, Native American territory, and so that it was somehow supposed to be sort of an acknowledgement of, you know, the Seneca nation. But of course, those of you who are familiar with New York history know that that was not Seneca territory. And so historians like me, have started to sort of question that particular assumption. And the suggestion that I pose in my book is that it was actually named Seneca Village after the Roman philosopher Seneca, who wrote quite a bit about ideas of liberty and freedom and equality and was actually a thinker who was quoted fairly regularly in black newspapers at the time. And so I've posited that as a potential suggestion

that in fact they're naming it after sort of a philosopher who's sharing ideas about rights to freedom and liberty. Interesting. That speaks to the great social context of this community, let alone the movements involved in it. But before we move on to that, I just want to be sure that I understand and the listeners understand the size and scope of this village.

For anyone who knows Manhattan, we're talking about the streets basically from 83rd, low 80s, all the way up to 89th Street. Now, these are big blocks. So that's a long way. Right? That's basically the Museum of Natural History all the way up to, I don't know, you know, one of those big apartment houses up there. But that's just Central Park West. Then it stretches into the park to what is the Great Lawn. That's right. We're talking about a major piece of real estate and a lot of houses. At the peak of its existence, how many houses and how many people?

Well, so according to the maps, it appears that when Seneca Village was actually destroyed, they removed somewhere in the range of 200, to 2605 buildings. Wow. So that would have included houses, the churches, as well as like barns and sheds and other things like that. In terms of numbers of people, as I mentioned earlier, you know, one of the things that's tricky is that we can only rely on the census to get a sense of the population. But the census as a source relative to the African American population has always been

problematic, right? the census has notoriously historically undercounted the black population. But as I said before, it's particularly a problem relative to Seneca Village because we believe that a large number of the residents were actually fugitives. And so according to the census, they're only talking about a couple hundred people that lived in Seneca Village, but it doesn't really make sense that there would be 260 houses and only a couple hundred people living there. So the census, I think in this regard is a bit of an unreliable source. I have the feeling we're probably talking somewhere in the range of several hundred. Right. But it's just important to lock in the

fact that this is a well-established with streets, corners, intersections, houses, services, the whole thing is going on. Was this a typical situation? Were there other kinds of African-American communities like this throughout the Northeast? Yeah, I think that that is a really important point. I just want to underscore the first part of what you said really quickly, because if you look, at the maps, what's really fascinating is to see how well planned and how well thought out. Seneca Village was as a community, as you said, there's walkways, there's pathways, there's roads, there's clearly defined boundaries relative to the various plots of land. And in some cases, you know, you also see a pretty dramatic range in terms of the quality of the homes that are built.

So you actually see there's a huge range in terms of the class. level relative to the residents. So if you look at the maps, you'll see on some of the plots one very small, one-story sort of cabin, right? And then on other plots of land, you see these massive homes that are three stories tall and that have huge wraparound porches and lavish gardens. So you can really see that people are pouring whatever resources they have into really establishing and maintaining their homes and establishing and maintaining. maintaining these communities. Part of the reason why that's so significant, as you say, is that communities like this in the 19th century were relatively rare, right? But by comparison to the vast majority of

black folks who are living in New York City at this time, the vast majority of them are living in tenement houses. They're living in addicts. They're living in basements. They're living in very small homes that are sort of stacked up on top of each other. They're living in very intense and overcrowded conditions. And by comparison, a community like Seneca Village, where, you know, you have in some cases these lavish homes, you have these amazing gardens, you know, you have these public spaces that they're cultivating to create a community. This is extremely rare in the 19th century. Tell me about some notable citizens who lived in this community. There were some very very, very important folks.

Yeah, there were a number of important folks. The one that most people would probably recognize most easily, I have a couple of particular favorites that I'll talk about in a moment. But probably the name that would be recognizable to most people was an abolitionist and activist named Albrough Lyons. He was an entrepreneur. He also owned a home and property in Lower Manhattan. He was sort of a famous and towering figure in New York City's black community.

and in his later years and after his death, it was revealed that he had been a conductor on the Underground Railroad, which is one of the main reasons why people believe that Seneca Village played an important role in ferrying fugitives through New York City. But as I said, Albro Lyons was an abolitionist. He was an activist and owned property. And his family lived at least part of the time in Seneca Village. His daughter, Maritia Lions, who lived part of her life in Seneca Village, also went on to become an influential activist herself. So the Lions family in terms of kind of name recognition would probably be the most famous and the most significant. There's a couple of other interesting characters for my perspective as a historian. The second person to purchase property in Seneca Village was a man named Epiphany Davis, who's a particular favorite of mine, in part because I just like,

the name Epiphany. But he was also an abolitionist and an activist. And in fact, some of your listeners may know that in 1834, there was an anti-black race riot that broke out in New York City, actually one of the largest and deadliest in the north in the 19th century. And Epiphany Davis was actually the person from the black community who contacted the mayor after he heard rumors. that the riot was going to happen and begged for protection and was denied. So he was in that regard, in my mind, is sort of a pivotal, interesting historical figure. But he was also a member of the Methodist Episcopal Church, and he was also a member of the African Society. So he was one of the primary people that sort of led the charge towards the settlement of Seneca Village.

One more interesting character in my mind was also a member of the African Society, a man named Samuel Hardenberg, who gained quite a bit of fame during this period. He was sort of a notorious figure in New York City at the time because he was the one who tended to lead parades. Parading was a very popular sort of cultural and political activity in the black community in New York in the 19th century. And so anytime there was an organizational anniversary, anytime they were commemorating the abolition of the slave trade or the abolition of slavery in New York, there would be these large grand parades held through the streets of New York City, much to the chagrin of, you know, wealthy property owners, white property owners along Broadway. But Samuel Hardenberg tended to be chosen pretty regularly as the Grand Marshal of these parades, and he would ride on a massive white horse at the front of the parade and carry a drawn sword in his hand. And one of his favorite things to do would be to ride past the mayor's house and salute. So there's obviously all kinds of really sort of like fascinating and colorful characters that lived in Seneca

Village. I'll be back with more from Leslie in just a moment on American History Hit. I can't tell you how interesting it is to me. Sad, really, that I came to New York as a young guy in my 20s. And everybody would, if you ever were curious about what came before in Central Park, it was always talked about as, oh, there were shacks there, you know, there were homeless people living there. If anybody lived there, it was vagrancy, and, you know, there wasn't anything. It was a rocky, bad farmland. You know, it was all negative portrayals of what was there before. So how glorious that New York would take this rough and roughshod land and make something great out of it, you know. That was always how the story was told until 1992 when things turn around so recently. But I was there for 20 years before

anybody even talked about any of that stuff. It's incredible. But part of the reason that this becomes an epic story is because it all happens against the backdrop of slavery in America, obviously, but surprisingly, against the story of slavery in New York State, which takes a lot of people by surprise. Yes. Yes, it does. And New York was the leading slave state prior to 1799. Am I right? Yes, that's absolutely right. New York State had the largest black population enslaved or free in, first in the colonies, the second only to Charleston, South Carolina, during the entire colonial period, and continued to have the second largest black population in what then became the United States all the way up to 1790. But what we know is so horrifying in the South was happening in New York all the way up until 1800.

That's right. Actually, both New York and New Jersey were thriving enslaved communities. People in this day and age tend not to think much about agricultural life in places like New York and New Jersey. But the truth is that those locations were home to large enslaved populations that were performing an extraordinary amount of agricultural labor for the rest of the North. And then, of course, in New York City itself, being a major shipping port that was central to the functioning of the maritime trade across the Americas. New York City demanded a significant enslaved population. And this was commerce of enslaved humans from the Dutch onward into the English. This went all the way along. That's right.

Then things turn around, thank goodness. Let's talk about how this was all dismantled. It was a gradual process, quite literally. That's in the title of one of the laws, am I right? Things begin to turn around in 1799. How? Yeah, so this is really a fascinating story, especially when you, you know, you juxtapose what's happening in New York and New Jersey by comparison to the rest of the North. Obviously, one of the major influences that the American Revolution had on the institution of slavery is that it destabilized it ideologically, right?

That many of the activists, especially in places like Boston, which was obviously the center of the American Revolution in the North, increasingly had a hard time justifying their own calls for liberty and freedom. They're asking to be released from the shackles of oppression and tyranny, you know, on the part of the British crown and all of that. And it's hard to continue to circulate that kind of rhetoric while you're at the same time holding other people in shackles. Of course, they did continue to do so for quite a period of time. But the contradiction is pretty glaring and increasing becomes difficult to fully justify. And so one by one, right, across the north, as these colonies are becoming states, state legislatures start passing various kinds of emancipation acts.

There's really only two states in the north, Vermont and Massachusetts, that pass immediate abolition acts. The rest of them pass, as you indicated, various kinds of gradual emancipation Acts. And I think what's important to underscore in the case of New York is that New York is one of the last northern states to pass some kind of a gradual emancipation act. Really from the time that the American Revolution ended, a coalition of religious reformers and politicians kept trying to push emancipation acts through the state legislator and repeatedly were voted down. They are not able to finally push something through, as you said, in 1799. The gradual emancipation act is like naughty and complicated, but to try to make it as simple

as possible, essentially what gradual emancipation did was pick a date, which in this case was July 4th, 1799, and say that anyone born before that date would live the rest of their lives in bondage, any enslaved person. Any enslaved person born after that date. And I'm of course, it's interesting that they chose Independence Day, right, July 4th to acknowledge gradual emancipation. But anyone born after that date would essentially be in a form of what I think we would think of as indentured servitude, right, that they owed service to their master for a particular period of time. So for men, it was 28 years old, and for women, it was 25 years old. And then they passed an amendment in 1817, essentially saying anyone who has not been freed

by July 4, 1827, will be free as of that date. So the sort of official legal end to slavery in New York State was July 4th, 1827. And I think it's important to, you know, people like to make fun of historians for our attachment to dates. You know, we nerd out over dates. But I think that it's important to underscore 1827 in this case because what that really means is that it's only a few decades before slavery ends in the South that slavery comes to an end in a place like New York State. And it's even slightly later in New Jersey. Amazing.

A quarter of a century goes by before laws even begin to change. You can only imagine the dynamics in families as children are born. free men and women, but their parents aren't. I mean, what a wound to go through for more than that quarter century because it just goes on. You know, that's weird on the personal level, never mind political and legal level. Exactly. But this is a huge agonizing effort to go through. And then what it really boils down to is what qualifies you as free.

What is a free man in New York in 1828? Right, exactly. in terms of legal status, do you mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, right. So this is, I think, one of my favorite quotes from a 19th century activist came from a New York city leader named Peter Williams, Jr., who described freedom for black people in New York in the 19th century a defective freedom, right?

Because, you know, what he's essentially trying to bring attention to is this idea that you might be physically released from the show. shackles of another person. You are no longer legally owned by another person. And that's important, right? We should not dismiss the significance of that, that no one can hold you any longer as property. But what it means to actually live as an emancipated person is not the same as actually being a free and equal citizen. And, you know, again, we try to think of segregation, for example, as a southern problem, but most of the North was segregated during the early 19th century prior to the Civil War. Public spaces like libraries and zoos, black people were banned from

being able to attend public spaces like that. Modes of transportation like streetcars were segregated all across the north during this time, especially in New York City. Businesses were allowed to deny people entrance on the basis of race. And of course, in the 18th, they were also denying access based on ethnicity, right, banning Irish and German immigrants as well. And certainly black people were not, black men did not have access to the right to vote in New York, in much of the North. In New York, they were, black men were only allowed access to the vote if they owned $250 worth of property. So there were, in New York, they imposed what they referred to as property qualifications. And in their mind, property qualifications, and in their mind, property qualifications,

were an indication of your moral character, right? So if you were wealthy and owned property, that meant you were a person of higher moral character and could be trusted with the vote. But the number of people, the percentage of the black population who had access to that amount of wealth in the 19th century was minuscule. I think I remember seeing a statistic, for example, that in like 1840, only 16 black men in New York qualified for the right to vote. So property of qualifications worked very effectively to ban most black people from access to the vote. And even today, owning property brings you into the middle class. Exactly.

That raises your potential for wealth building, et cetera, et cetera. How much of the vote, how much of the identity as a freedman, an operative citizen in America, had to do with Seneca Village in terms of buying property and really establishing yourself, as opposed to living that life downtown, which was not going well. Right. I think this is, you know, to me, I think one of the things that is really significant about Seneca Village is its existence as a pathway to political empowerment, but also its symbolic significance, right? So if you owned property in Seneca Village, even if you initially bought just one plot of land, if you were able to work on it over a period,

of time and continue to improvement and construct buildings on it, right, and to sort of improve the land over time, you could eventually, perhaps buy your way, right, into political empowerment, that over time you might be able to position yourself to be able to have access to the right to vote, which would have been something much more challenging to do in lower Manhattan. But I think in a deeper way, what was really significant about Seneca Village is that it's being established at the same time that an organization called the American Colonization Society was rising to significance and power. This is an organization that people largely are unaware of in the 21st century, but was extremely powerful and significant in the 19th century. It had literally

a veritable who's who of white American politicians and major entrepreneurs. The, the wealthiest and most politically influential people were members of the American Colonization Society. This was an organization that decided that the existence of the free black population in the United States presented a fundamental threat to the safety and security of the United States and to the economic security of the institution of slavery. So the American Colonization Society was sort of hell-bent on forced, removal of the free black population from the United States and wanted to relocate them, right, either willingly or forcibly, if necessary, back to West Africa.

Even Abraham Lincoln was involved in that. Abraham Lincoln was a very prominent member of the American Colonization Society. Absolutely. So this is a time when the American Colonization Society is really getting powerful and influential 1830s, 1840s, 1850s. the American Colonization Society is really ramping up its power and influence. They actually purchased land, right, on the west coast of Africa and established Liberia for the purpose of relocating free black people to West Africa.

And so what Seneca Village represents at a time like this is an alternative to that, right? It sends a message from the free black community to the rest of the United States. we actually intend to stay here, right? We believe that we have a right to stay here. Our ancestors built this country, right? It is their blood, sweat, and tears that made this nation possible. And we believe we have a right to be here. And so by buying land, right, building homes, constructing churches and schools, they are sending a message to themselves and to the broader society that black people have a right to be in this country and that they intend to stay. It's very moving. All of this, however, flies in the face of development as New York moves upward

in Manhattan, which is an inexorable push. Real estate becomes, it becomes the Gilded Age is all on the horizon, of course, but at this time, that's all in play. And an inspiring plan is birthed, which is to create a huge park, which will be an enormous front lawn to a lot of that real estate development. And one of those things in the way is Seneca Village. So tell me the story of the demise of the village and how that came about. Right. So as you say, you know, Seneca Village demise really begins with the plan, which I think in this day and age, most people would support to build a park, right? Who's going to be mad about a park? And in the next, 19th century, particularly, you know, in this pre-Civil War era, parks were actually kind of part of a radical social reform movement, right?

As a way of saying the way to improve urban spaces, the way to ease the stress and the pressure on the working class is to be able to have, you know, beautiful grounds and surroundings where people can go on the weekends and enjoy leisure time and look at, you know, beautiful trees. and plants, right? So in theory, building a park is actually sort of like part of a social reform movement that is about trying to make cities better and more desirable places to live. So the impetus begins to establish a park in New York City that would become a space along those lines. What's interesting is that the original plan to establish the park was supposed to be in a place called Jones Woods that was actually pretty well suited for. the creation of a park, even the name Jones Woods, right, indicates that it was a well-forested, you know, sort of attractive plot of land. But city officials were not in favor over time of using Jones Woods

as the location. The argument that they made at the time was that the plot of land would be a little too small. And they wanted to create like one of the largest and grandest and, you know, fanciest parks in the country, which of course they ended up successfully doing. And so, So as a result, they turn their eyes towards the land the central park is currently located on, but of course was also the land where Seneca Village was located. Interestingly enough, I think my personal view, and I make this argument in my book, is that their decision to locate the park there, while it may have been in part motivated by a desire to make, you know, a larger, grander park than Jones Woods would allow.

It was also motivated by a kind of disturbing combination of racism and greed. The final decision was made by the mayor at the time whose name was Fernando Wood. And Fernando Wood went on in his career to be probably one of the most, like, virulently racist northern politicians of the Civil War era. During the Reconstruction era, he voted against the Civil Rights Act. He voted against the Ku Klux Klan Act. He voted against and spoke out really publicly about his belief that black people were fundamentally and inherently inferior and should not exist as free and equal citizens in the United States. But the other significant thing about Fernando Wood is that quite conveniently, he owned some plots of land that bordered Seneca Village and that bordered the area that eventually became Central Park. And so once they chose that location,

and Central Park became Central Park. His financial holdings in that area, which were valued at the time at just a couple of hundred dollars, skyrocketed all the way to over $10,000. So Mayor Wood, as an individual, profited very personally from the establishment of Central Park. But essentially, in terms of the decision itself. I suspect that was true of many people. Yes, exactly. So all of the folks who owned property, right, as you said today, the real estate along Central Park is, you know, some of the most valuable in the city. And it became so, right, on the backs of the destruction of Seneca Village. The destruction of the community itself began right around 1850, 1851, when they begin discussing moving the park location from Jones Woods to the territory. that Central Park is on now. The decision is made finally, as I said by a mayor would, to invoke a concept that is increasingly becoming problematic in the 21st century as well, a concept known as

eminent domain, which is sort of a governmental principle that says that whenever it is in the interest of the public good, the government has the right to seize private property. As long as the property owner is fairly compensated. And of course, that raises questions, right, about what fair and reasonable compensation actually is. But so Mayor Wood invokes imminent domain and seizes all of that territory. The black community, the residents of Seneca Village, the vast majority of them protest against the invocation of eminent domain. And they begin petitioning the city council in response to it. The petitions kind of fall into two categories. Some of them are people who I think probably just sort of recognize the inevitability of the

situation and are arguing that their property is being undervalued. Other people are protesting their removal entirely, right? But ultimately, of course, eminent domain wins out. And the final remaining residents who are refusing to leave their homes are actually very violently and physically removed from the community by the police in 1857. Were there other communities that were seized by eminent domain in that same in Central Park area? Yeah, so, I mean, the entire territory that now encompasses Central Park was seized through the process of eminent domain.

So, as I mentioned before, there's a German and Irish immigrant settlement that exists kind of right on the boundaries of Seneca Village. All of those folks are forcibly evicted as well. And any other person, right, who owns property or has just kind of settled informally in that area. They're also evicted from the land. Did the community, the Santa Rica Village community, transfer to any other area and become another community there? Yeah. So historians believe that people kind of disperse in one of sort of three directions, right? Some of them move farther towards the river and end up settling in what is now Weeksville.

Some of them just return to lower Manhattan, but a portion of them actually just move farther north on the island and settle in what is now Harlem. Oh, okay. So it really is a precursor to Harlem becoming the premier African American community of America. A century later, really. Right. Right. Yeah. That's amazing. How much did we've kind of skipped over one thing that I really want to make sure we get, which is as this community grew, became more prosperous, evidenced itself on the profile of New York City. There are many people who did not like this. They did not approve of this. And this speaks to other events that happened throughout America over the next, you know, decades to come, including the Tulsa Massacre.

Right. I think that's absolutely right. I think in some ways, you know, we talk a lot about the Tulsa Massacre and the destruction of what was then referred to as Black Wall Street. But I think that Seneca Village is sort of, as you indicate, a precursor to that story, right? Seneca Village started as just a few plots of land, right? But by the 1840s and into the early 1850s had become a really thriving, successful black community. And again, I think a symbolic representation of what black emancipation and black freedom could ultimately bring if given the opportunity. And the enemies of black freedom and equality were pretty clear that Seneca Village

needed to be removed and destroyed. I mean, right in the papers, right? I mean, this is headlines in the papers. Absolutely. Editorials and so forth back in the day. That's right. It's also a precursor to what comes later in the 20th century with urban renewal. And specifically, a subject that frustrates me to no end that is never talked about, really, in the way that even Seneca Village was never talked about, which is the Interstate Highway Act of 1956. You know, almost my lifetime, has a huge impact on African-American settlements. We call them. They're cities. They're towns that are thriving all around the country. And suddenly those properties get seized as lesser-value properties that could have ramps put over the top of them and so forth. And you have that in New Orleans.

You have every city in America, for goodness sake, is everywhere. Never mind Robert Moses and that entire era of destroying neighborhoods, especially through the Bronx and Brooklyn. It's all rooted back if you want to see it this way. in the Seneca Village story, which I choose to, because I think that's all related together, that entire continuum that we've lived through, or is our history. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, that that's, you know, eminent domain continues to be used in the 21st century as justification for, quote, unquote, urban renewal, right? It's that the public good demands that we take this particular action. And it does result in the destruction of thriving communities in most.

cases thriving communities of black folks or other peoples of color. Yeah, I don't want to be naive. There are times when eminent domain is important and unavoidable. But when you go back through history, American history, you see repeated circumstances where one particular facet of society, one population, is trod upon in this regard. Yes. Thank you very much for this history. I mean, we need to end with a happy note here.

The story of Seneca Village gets unearthed, and that comes out. early 90s in a book and then an archaeological dig. So the truth is unearthed literally. Yes, that's right. And actually, I think one of the most significant things, I mean, certainly the park and its people was really important, played a really important role, that book in shedding light on the story of Seneca Village. But I think really one of the most significant things that really brought the story of Seneca Village to public attention was the museum installation that they created at the New York Historical Society by Cynthia Copeland and her team. They had that display there for at least a few years. And that really, I think, brought attention,

right? For folks who maybe didn't come across the book, didn't have a chance to pick it up and take a look at it, that very public sort of museum installation, I think played a really important role in bringing people's attention to what was really happening in New York City at that time. In a sense, the story is a microcosm of what is necessary to understand the history of racism in America and the truth and reality of it. I love Central Park. I mean, who doesn't love Central Park? It's a fantastic place to walk around. The last thing in the world I want to feel is guilt and shame and difficulties. That goes for a lot of America. But until you actually grasp what went on and the people that suffered, you don't get the whole story. And it's just so

ironic, I suppose, that that happens in Central Park, never mind all these other places. But that's the truth. And that's all that really can be had at this point is some kind of grappling with that and a sense of ownership of that story for all people. Yeah, that's right. Thank you, Leslie. Thank you. It's been a great conversation. I have so much more to talk about. I hope you'll come back to American History Hit sometime. It would be absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode of American History Hit. I hope you enjoyed it. Please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I'll see you next time.

This podcast includes music from Epidemic Sound.