American History Hit - Downton Abbey

Episode Date: December 29, 2022

It’s December 1912 and we’re joining in with the festivities at Highclere Castle, in London England. The prime minister is Herbert H. Asquith and King George V is on the throne. Across the Atlanti...c, America has left the Gilded Age behind and elected Woodrow Wilson as president.Downton Abbey, the hugely popular television series, was filmed at Highclere Castle. The show is of course fiction, but it’s set in a home where the history is real, and no doubt the food was delicious…that is, if you like meat pies and blood pudding. Today, for a special festive episode, we’re looking at history through the lens of food served at Downton Abbey - and what it can tell us about how people lived at that time.How did British early 20th century eating influence dining in America? And did it go both ways, how were the Brits influenced by what we were cooking here in the US? Don is joined by food historian Annie Gray to tell us more.Produced by Benjie Guy. Mixed by Anisha Deva. Senior Producer: Charlotte Long.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts, and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today!  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Want to explore even more history? Sign up to History Hit, where you will discover history from around the world. From the American Revolution to prehistoric Scotland, there is plenty to discover. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries, with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com slash subscribe to bring the past alive. It's December. The year is 1912. We're joining in the festivities at High Clear Castle, a huge, majestic manor house on a 5,000 acre estate just a few hours west of London, England.
Starting point is 00:00:46 We're dining tonight with Lord and Lady Carnarvon. The sumptuous room is warmly lit. A crackling fire blazes in the hearth. Large portraits hang from the walls. The first course, served by uniformed footmen, is a choice of soup, followed by some whitefish. We settle in. This is only the first of seven courses to come. Chatter around the table ranges from society gossip to geopolitical tensions. After all, we're only two years out from Britain's entrance into World War I when a section of this castle will be transformed into a makeshift hospital for wounded soldiers.
Starting point is 00:01:21 The prime minister is Herbert H. Asquith, and King George V is on the throne. Across the Atlantic, America has left the Gilded Age behind and elected Woodrow Wilson as president. In this more gracious era of manners and etiquette, defined by aristocratic tradition, the customs of dining exerted enormous influence on affairs of home and state. In this rarefied realm, how did the Brits influence what happened in the U.S.? And did it go both ways? Downton Abbey, the hugely popular television series, was filmed at High Clear Castle. The show is, of course, fiction, but was set in a home where the history is real.
Starting point is 00:01:58 And no doubt the food was delicious. that is, if you like steak and kidney pies and blood pudding. Today, for this special episode, we're taking our place at the table, looking at history through the lens of food and how it was consumed by people with exceedingly high standards. Hey, I'm Don Wildman, and welcome to a special festive episode of American History Hit. Earlier this month, I took a trip to London to meet the team at History Hit and record a number of interviews in historic sites there, including rummaging about Charles Dickens' house, and keeping warm at Ben Franklin's lodgings near Trafalgar Square,
Starting point is 00:02:44 his only surviving residents in the world. These are episodes that will drop early in the new year. But I was especially lucky to meet food historian Annie Gray, who wrote the official cookbook for Downton Abbey, which has such a cult following here in the U.S. So today, we're having a holiday-inspired chat with Annie about food during the early 20th century and what it told us about culture on both sides of the pond,
Starting point is 00:03:07 or rather table. So without further ado, here's Annie. Why food history, first of all? I mean, it is an interesting lens to look at culture, isn't it? It is. I think it's one of the very few things that's universal, first of all, and one of the very few things that everyone can get behind because of that. So I came into food history through, I suppose, social history
Starting point is 00:03:32 and through wanting to find something where I could work as a public historian and work with heritage sites, work really on the sort of pit face. And I thought, well, what's that? What is that? What does it look like? And then, because I was interested in food, I suppose, as well, it kind of came to me that everybody eats and that's your universe or that's the thing where you can hook anyone in. It's not just the food stuffs, is it? It's the behavior around it. Exactly. The protocols of it. It's no more interesting than what has happened in England. And one incredible stage to look at, certainly for American audiences, was Downton Abbey, right? Yeah, yeah. The food was really important in Downton Abbey. And quite
Starting point is 00:04:11 subliminally so and I suppose that's the thing with food is that we don't even notice that we're doing something a lot of the time. We don't see our own cultural preconceptions. We don't see that what we're doing is different to anybody in the past or anybody in a different country unless we make the decision to think about it. Downton is a soap opera basically and the plots are ludicrous and it's a very silly thing which is also you know vastly enjoyed by an awful lot of people. But those dinner scenes, people watch them and they don't really think, oh hang on a minute what's going on there. Let's analyse that. Let's see what's going on. But when you dig down into it, it's quite integral to the plot of Downton and certainly integral to the way in which
Starting point is 00:04:48 that social setup works. Don't all Brits eat like that still? Well, I do clearly. I break out the silver every night. But I mean, actually, if you do look very carefully at the dinner party scenes in Downton Abbey, they are nearly always eating the fish course. So I think if everybody ate like that, we'd eat a lot of whiting and soul and spinach. And most of us, certainly in the first series, most of us wouldn't actually be eating, we'd be kind of moving our knives and forks around and making the occasional clinking sound. You know, I was a trained food server. I'm a waiter from way back because I started as an actor. And so I was 15 years in New York, and I was trained by the best of the best in food service. So I know French service. I know
Starting point is 00:05:25 Russian service. And none of my friends care. Like I tell them these things and they're like, Oh, that's really sad. But I'm fascinated by all that. And it really comes, certainly the American version this comes out of England. Yeah. Because it comes over the seas during the Victorian period and we all try to emulate those fancy Brits. Yeah, and you see that across Europe really. I mean, I did my PhD thesis on dining style change
Starting point is 00:05:49 in the 19th century from Alainz-Francée to Al-Aruz. Of course you did. So be warned, you know, 100,000 words later, we'll still be here and I'll be showing you graphs. But the way we eat is a really, really interesting thing. And with the way in which American society had this sort of love-hate relationship with British society. I find endlessly fascinating. So you have this 18th century service, Alafons says, where
Starting point is 00:06:11 everything is on the table at once, you know, a couple of different courses and people help themselves and help each other. And that moves to Alarous, which is what you see in downtown Abbey. An Arous, what does that? Palus. So it's Russian service. Yes. But of course, it doesn't necessarily come out of Russia. It seems to develop in a lot of different ways. Let's just exploit it, because I love it. So French service is the server putting the food from his her platter onto yours. Oh, you see, I'd call that butler service. Oh, interesting.
Starting point is 00:06:38 But the Russian service is the server holding it for you and you turning and serving yourself from the platter. So for me, alla frances or French-style service is the 18th century way of serving dinner where you have, if you're wealthy, you have three courses. And in your first course, you have soup, fish and entrees, so made dishes, what we would call entrees in Britain as in a starter-sized dish rather than what you would call entrees, which are the main course dishes, all of that is served by the people sitting around the table.
Starting point is 00:07:07 So it's on the table already when they arrive. They serve each other. They serve themselves. That goes away. In comes the second course, which is roast meats and boiled meats, farmed meats, sweet dishes called sweet entreme. And then all that goes away.
Starting point is 00:07:20 And then in comes dessert, which is fruit and nuts. So that to me is la Frances. Well, you have a PhD, so I'm going to give it up. And Russian service is sequential. So you have the same dishes, but spread out over anything between 11 and 10. 22 different dishes and then you get what you're calling French style service. So you either have it where the waiter or in this case footman holds the dish to the side and the diner serves themselves,
Starting point is 00:07:44 which is what you see in Downton and what you would have had in aristocratic houses. Or you have waiter at the side giving the person their dish which is much more restaurant style service. So it's brilliant because at any given time every household in Britain is doing slightly different variation on all of those different things. But when I was taught, maybe Thanksgiving when I was very young. I was taught how to put down the service and how to line up the forks. I'm basically doing something that is a sort of rough model of that fancier service we see in down Nabbie, all those elaborate table settings and everything, which is the, you know, enth result or the nth degree of what this is. It's a bit Nouveau-Riche, though, really. To put that much cutler on the table. If you're
Starting point is 00:08:22 really old-landed aristocracy, you don't need to demonstrate your wealth in quite such a way. Well, no, every service has its own piece of cutler. Well, it does if you're Nouveau and can afford those things. Nouveau, okay? I suppose you're American, aren't you, darling? That's how I've lived my life. And so everything has a precision and a reason for being on the table. How true was what we see in Downton Abbey to the day? We're talking about the Edwardian period here. We're coming out of Victoria into Edward and all of that time frame is very elaborate. Is it fancier in Downton Abbey than was reality? Dependent on your class. So, no, Downton Abbey is relatively accurate in terms of its dinner service.
Starting point is 00:09:02 I would say it edges sometimes towards the slightly new money rather than old money. On the other hand, looking at the relative ages of the characters, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Lord Grantham would have adopted that really quite rigid, quite modern style of service at the time. We do know that older members of the aristocracy and those whose land went back aeons. Perhaps we're going, you know what, I don't need to have fish knives and forks and this and that and soup spoons. And do you know what? I just don't need it.
Starting point is 00:09:29 One spoon, one knife, one fork for the first course. then that can go away. And rather than building these sort of fortresses around each plate, those in the know would perhaps have just had two or three pieces of cutlery and that would have been replaced every so often. What were the dishes that were on the table in those days? Well, this was a sort of, it was a service style that was essentially about nine different courses and then you'd have a choice of dishes in each course offered to you. So you're sitting at the head of the table and up comes your waiter and says to you, would you prefer the dark soup or the light soup? There was a kind of inbuilt gender bias. So if you were a,
Starting point is 00:10:02 but a lady, you were supposed to prefer the light soup. If you were a gent, of course, you would have more robust appetites and be more likely to go out and... Hunt. Yeah, hunt, shoot, beat people up, generally behave like a red-blooded man, so you might want to go for the dark soup. On the other hand, you might also think of your digestion and prefer to go for the lighter one. Then there would be fish, so there would be always, again, probably one or two fish dishes offered to you. Then would come these kind of fancier dishes, the entrees of the old-fashioned style, and those would be things like chops, sauce or perhaps a curry, get a bit of a nod to the Raj, things that showed off the skill of the cook.
Starting point is 00:10:38 And there might be three or four of those and you could pick one, two, three, as many as you wanted. And it would go on and on and on and you'd get this whole procession of dishes. At some point there'd be a big roast dish. So you would choose to have pieces of meat from that. That would be carved on the sideboard. And you'd keep going and keep going and keep going. And if you were lucky, there might be a little kind of pause where you have sorbet, just to refresh your palate for the next seven courses. And then you'd end with fruit and nuts just to refurb.
Starting point is 00:11:02 A whole different cuisine for the back of the house. The pies and stuff like that, right? Pies could cross boundaries, I suppose. So what you had on the table was often quite fancy, but obviously waste was very frowned upon. So today we frown upon waste, then very much even more so. And those huge meals that you see at Downton and in that social context, recycling was built in.
Starting point is 00:11:24 So you'd have your roast, but then the remains of that roast would be chopped up and made into something like a hash. And that would be luncheon the next day, because luncheon was a lower status meal for the ladies. And then what was left of that would go down to the servants hall. Meanwhile, the servants also had their own foods, which were plentiful but plain, I'd say. So lots of hands, lots of beef, things that would be poached rather than roast,
Starting point is 00:11:48 lots and lots of meat. We know that certainly by the late Victorian period, a good house would be serving about a pound of meat a day per servant. So lots more than we'd eat today, actually. What's the, forgive me, but the reputation of British food, in the 20th century was not great. No. Did that apply to those kinds of higher-end houses?
Starting point is 00:12:07 Or was that the street food? It was a mixture of things. I mean, today you can get really amazing British food, but you can also get really awful British food. That's true of most countries. Yeah, yeah. And especially if you're a tourist. I mean, I always pity the people that come to London.
Starting point is 00:12:22 I think, I'm going to have fish and chips. It's like the quintessential British thing. And they go off to the Tower of London, and then they have the most awful fish and chips from the booth outside. It's just greasy. soggy muck. So the aristocracy mainly ate French food. They had French cooks. I mean, Mrs. Patmore, strictly speaking, not very accurate for when Downton Abbey opens in 1912, because anybody with money would have employed a male chef, especially a French male chef.
Starting point is 00:12:49 But of course, Downton kind of gets over that pre-war period quite quickly. I mean, the end of series one, First World War breaks out. So Mrs. Patmore would have been accurate for the 1920s and 30s when the aristocracy had generally less money. And she would, would have been expected to cook French high-end food. But British food had a really good reputation when it was good. So roast beef, plum pudding, Yorkshire puddings, pies, suet puddings. Those things are knockout if they're good. But the British also gained the reputation for stodge,
Starting point is 00:13:20 and especially among the middle classes for having a joint of beef or whatever it was and then eking it out throughout the whole week. It's got to be said we were not brilliant at using spices or flavour at a certain level. of society. I'll be back with more from Annie Gray after this short break. I'm Tristan Hughes, host of the ancients from History Hit, where twice a week, every week, we delve into our ancient past. I'm joined by leading experts, academics and authors who share incredible stories from our distant history and shine a light on some of antiquities great questions. Was the Oracle of Delphi really able to see into the future? The Oracle certainly operated, certainly gave many things,
Starting point is 00:14:05 thousands, these prophecies, and they were taken seriously in most cases. What can be discovered from lost civilizations? There was a lot of volcanic activity, and in one of these sites called Quicoco actually got covered with volcanic flows, and the early archaeologists, they used dynamite, you know, to get at this archaeology. And was King Arthur actually real? Ambrosius is far less well known. It looks as if he has got a significant impact on the creation of the Arthur story itself.
Starting point is 00:14:35 You can expect all of this and more from the ancients on history hit wherever you get to your podcasts. Blood pudding. Oh, it's lovely. Oh my goodness. You've got to be kidding me. It's fantastic. Fried up so the bottom goes crispy. It's so much better than, I'm afraid to say, Mothia or the French boudain noir, which I find too sweet.
Starting point is 00:15:04 The British one with its oatmeal in and it's fat and it's got no onions in so you get the pure. Bad texture. You've got to have the right texture. You clearly didn't work at the Ealing Cafe as I did in 1981. I don't expect that some blood puddings are not great, but others. Oh, yes, especially with an egg. My boss was an RAF pilot who used to scream at me across the restaurant. If you were in the bloody army, I'd have you shot by now?
Starting point is 00:15:29 And he's shouting over construction workers who were ordering blood pudding and dry toast and all sorts of things. Workman's lunches anyway. Again, a good workman's lunch is a really good thing. But, yeah. I mean, I've had some of the worst food I've ever had in British B&B's breakfasts where the bacon is 90% fat and you start to chew it and it just boings and you know it's not even crispy because it's just boiled in its own brine and it's, yeah. What is the history of the food that we see in Stelna, I'll be telling you as a historian? What are you watching as you track through those episodes? What I'm watching, I think, is two things.
Starting point is 00:16:04 One is the way in which French food took over the world. I mean, even today, we still think of French food as really amazing and you can all. often go to high-end restaurants and the menu will be partially in French. And there's no excuse for it really. It's just pure snobbishness. I mean, I speak French and that's great. I can go and I can read it. But even I am going, this is ridiculous. Not everybody speaks French. That would have been controversial in Britain to have French food, I would have thought back in the day. Well, there was this sort of love-hate relationship with the French. French food started to really gain status in the 18th century and that was partly a deliberate policy from Louis
Starting point is 00:16:37 the 14th and his successors, his sort of soft power. People talk today about soft power. that idea of cultural exchange, or rather in the case of the French, just cultural takeover, was a really good way of pushing French influence. So 18th century British cookery books will often have a massive rant about how expensive French food is and how French chefs are all boobies and how it's really extravagant, no one should go anywhere near it. Oh, and here's a few recipes just in case you want to see how bad they are. So we kind of adopted French food at that aristocratic level while simultaneously hating the French. It's really interesting tension. And by the end of the 19th century, the tension was a lot less.
Starting point is 00:17:15 We were heading towards the Entente Cordial. In fact, by the time down to Abbey, atop Caudill has been signed. We're best mates with the French by this point, and we're about to go to war on their behalf. So it was less controversial. On the other hand, of course, there was still an awful lot of ranting about French kickshaws
Starting point is 00:17:30 and fancies and what was wrong with a good stewic pudding. And the emblem of Britishness was roast beef and plum pudding. It was not Beauvoir bourgignon or a glass of fine champagne. I often have watched it down. now, I'm thinking, how cool, they always have the meals to return to. These writers must have to say, okay, I have the show us eating in this thing. You always came back to the table, but that was true of life. Yeah. You built your life around the table, either the casual table or the fancy one. And it's true of life more generally, because you've got these incredible meals, and in terms of
Starting point is 00:17:59 the sort of psychology of eating, you have breakfast, lunch, dinner, or in the past, it would have been breakfast, dinner, supper, whatever it is. We normally eat three or four times a day. They break up the day. And then we have an extra special meal. at least in the modern-ish period on a Sunday. So that kind of is the way the week works. And then we have birthdays, we have christening. Every big occasion in life is marked by a meal. And the way the year passes is marked by meals,
Starting point is 00:18:24 whether it's Easter, Christmas in the Christian tradition or Hanukkah, or whatever it is, meals and food and coming together over food mark up, break up the passing of time. Right, exactly. And the health of a family and then scaling up to the health of a society depends on how much time you spend at the table together. Yeah. Do you talk to each other?
Starting point is 00:18:43 Do you have conversations that last beyond the food? Is it just not a function of eating, but rather community and everything else? There's an awful lot of social studies looking at families and family welfare and saying those families that sit and have a meal together are more likely to be a cohesive family. I mean, obviously you can over-reg it. You can say, well, you know, actually, if your family is really, really screwed up, I don't think coming together and eating your meal in the evening is really going to make a lot of difference versus actually watching TV. But, you know, mindful eating is another way in which people start to talk about food in the modern society. It is much better for your health to sit and eat a meal, not to sit in front of the telly and eat a meal because you are more likely to eat more at that point because you're not thinking about what you're doing. So food and the coming together over it is a really important thing.
Starting point is 00:19:26 And even if the food's really awful, sitting and having a conversation, social skills and enjoying what you're eating, it's lovely. I also think it's one of the pleasures that we can have on often quite a shoestring budget. and it's not free, obviously, but it's an easy pleasure to come by. And I also think if we're going to eat three times a day, why not make it count? I mean, there's nothing worse than eating a terrible takeout sandwich for a lunch because you've just got to have something on the run. I really, really resent meals where I don't get to eat something lovely, even if I'm sitting on a train and kind of desperate.
Starting point is 00:20:02 It just really annoys me. It's not just the food, it's also the protocol, the manners with which people can themselves and that's all developed behavior isn't it yeah and it's a minefield I consult on some videos for English Heritage quite recently we had two of the characters both servants talking to each other taking tea and the number of comments we got they've got their elbows on the table how dare they not be using a cake fork this is appalling and of course we deliberately written it to get those comments at some level because etiquette is learned and that what we think of as modern etiquette it wasn't so 10 20 30 years
Starting point is 00:20:36 ago, the other thing as well is that we are all brought up in this weird 1930s tradition of middle-class etiquette, especially in Britain, we're all kind of obsessed with it. And actually, especially if you were aristocratic, what you didn't need to buy an etiquette book. If you read it in a book, it totally doesn't apply to the upper levels of society. So what you see at Downton, that's their version of etiquette, it doesn't mean everybody else was doing that. What do you mean by middle-class etiquette? What is that? Well, this idea of, I don't know, milking first, milking after, in your tea, that's very much about learnt behaviour, using a cake fork, whether you put your little finger out when you hold your teacup.
Starting point is 00:21:12 Again, going back to what you said about cutlery, which cutler you use, whether you move your soup spoon away from you in the bowl or towards you in a bowl, all those tiny little things. We're all taught by books that people were published. Yeah, but those books only ever replied to the people that didn't know how to do it and weren't born for it. So the pitfall is, the minute you're reading a book, you are never, ever learning about what was really done at the top of society.
Starting point is 00:21:34 you're emulating it, which is even cheaper. Yeah, well, precisely. Those kind of things explain as well a lot of the differences between, for example, American etiquette and British etiquette. So one of the infamous things that Brits always talk about when it comes to Americans is this habit of cutting up all of the food, switching the fork over to the right side and then using a fork as a scoop. Now, it's something that we find appalling as Brits, this idea of putting down your knife.
Starting point is 00:21:58 Why on earth would you do that? But of course, it comes from a point where forks were in their infancy. So when lots and lots of Brits and other European nations were heading over to America for their brave new life, forks were only really something that the aristocracy had. So it's all learned behavior. There was nothing intrinsically wrong with just using your fork to shovel food into your mouth like a spoon. Well, you've just said something that's very important. I mean, we're talking about a couple of centuries of development, right?
Starting point is 00:22:23 I mean, there's a time when people didn't have forks or knives or anything. They ate with their hands. And that's the breadth of food history, truly. And of course, you have cultures we eat with sticks. And chopsticks are an amazing. tool. Absolutely fantastic. I prefer chopsticks as a matter of fact, I must say, although I like the look of a silver spoon, I got say. Yeah, yeah. It looks nice. And I like things like bone marrow spoons and some of the really kind of ridiculously niche things.
Starting point is 00:22:46 Well, maybe you're getting a little crazy there. Yeah, I know, but, you know what? Bone marrow scoop is a beautiful thing. Did it go both ways over the oceans? I mean, we know that the British customs came over, you know, the Guild of Age and we all wanted to be Brits, but did it go the other way? Not so much in the Edwardian. era, although there were industrial processes, I would say, that were really important. So things like artificial ice and the pioneering of frozen foods, so things like Clarence Bird's Eye and frozen peas, that kind of thing. Fish Fingers is a 1950s story.
Starting point is 00:23:17 But there were influences from that point of view. And in Downton, it's quite interesting, of course, because Lady Ratham is American. So you do see, I think, in that series, the producers and writers have picked up on that. And there's a scene early on where one of the maids brings her orange juice because she's heard that Americans like to have orange juice in the morning and that kind of thing. Where you did get an influence is cocktails. So obviously America attempted to prohibit alcohol in the 1920s, which didn't work at all.
Starting point is 00:23:45 But as a result of the ostensible prohibition on alcohol, an awful lot of rich Americans came to Britain and got slammed on cocktails. They brought the recipes with them. They did. And the vote for cocktails, of course you're looking at a period after the First World War, which is pretty miserable and where an awful lot of the so-called bright young things had lost lovers or sons or, you know, whoever, husbands, people they knew in the war, there was this kind of vow for getting absolutely hammered.
Starting point is 00:24:13 And that was very much, cocktails were Americans. And even today in London, you'll find a number of American bars that were founded in the 20s and 30s. And now, of course, there's, you know, airplanes all over the walls. You've taken it over at this point. We're not even going into detail about the differences between English breakfast and all these labels that go on with these foods. But, I mean, it's endless. We've just scratched the surface, Annie. I mean, personally, I find this incredibly fascinating because I have a food service history.
Starting point is 00:24:38 So I'm interested in the way it evolves side by side with politics, with world events and so forth. Food is right there, you know, sort of as the bellwether of everything, really, because it's so central to our lives. And you have covered it all in the great books you've written called The Greedy Queen, which is a great title, Eating with Victoria, the Downton Abbey Cookbook. All of those who are listening today ought to go out and buy one of those. Victory in the Kitchen. The life of Churchill's cook. Yeah, that was fun. That's cool, huh?
Starting point is 00:25:05 So do you experience these cuisines yourself when you do these? Yeah, yeah. When I was writing Greedy Queen, we ate Victorian for kind of nine months. And then when I was writing Victory in the kitchen, Georgina Landermar, who was Churchill's longest serving cook, actually. She was a jobbing cook in the 1920s and 30s, so she was a very high-level caterer and kept a manuscript cookery book. So we ate a lot of Georgina's food.
Starting point is 00:25:24 And I have to say, you know, it's pared down. Her food was fantastic. We were doing meals where we would have. two gauces properly every night. So some of the puddings, and I'm not particularly a pudding-y dessert person, but Boodle's Orange Full was pretty much a revelation, and there's a maple moose that Georgina wrote into her cookbook, which I'm assuming she picked up from one of Churchill's many visits over to Canada to Quebec. He must have brought the recipe back, or one of the daughters might have bought the recipe back, and this maple syrup moose is absolutely one of the
Starting point is 00:25:56 best things. Was Churchill just the excuse, or was there something insightful about him that came from the food. Churchill was a sort of hook, I suppose. When I'd written Greedy Queen, I was conscious I'd written a book about Victorian food through the lens of someone who'd eaten basically all of it. And I wanted to write about 20th century food and also domestic service, which is an area I'm also very interested in. I discovered Churchill's cook just by pulling her cookbook off the shelf of a library one day
Starting point is 00:26:18 and thinking, gosh, how interesting. Someone must have written about her. Clearly, obviously, this is a woman who Churchill came up to her at the end of the war after he gave the speech on VE Day and said to her, I could not have done this without you. It's clearly a pivotal figure. And no one had written about her. And part of that was because it turned out to be incredibly difficult to recreate her life. So I wrote about her because I wanted to write about 20th century food
Starting point is 00:26:42 and I knew people would be interested in Churchill. So he was a good reason to write the book. But actually, in writing it, I came to realise that she herself was a fantastic figure to hang this off and to talk about. I'm at the end of it. I was going, yeah, we should know about this woman. It's not fair. There are a thousand books on Churchill.
Starting point is 00:26:58 We don't need any more books more books on Churchill. Women, women, invisible women. And then you're over. Yeah. But it's mainly about, Georgina. But you do get insights on children. I have a huge stack of cookbooks. I'm big in the kitchen.
Starting point is 00:27:09 Not great, but it's a big part of my life. And along with those books is now Annie Gray's books, the history of food. Thank you very much for taking us where it matters. Hey, thanks so much for listening to this seasonal episode of American History hit, our last episode of 2022. There won't be an episode as usual on Monday. as we break for the holidays. But we'll return to our normal schedule next Thursday
Starting point is 00:27:39 with a brand new episode entitled Lessons from the Civil War. It's a good one. If you enjoyed this episode or any of the episodes you've listened to this year, please follow and review. It really helps. We'd love to hear from you. Happy New Year all. See you in 2023.
Starting point is 00:28:04 This podcast includes music from Epidemic Sound.

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