American History Hit - Jonestown: The Birth of Peoples Temple

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

On November 18th, 1978, over 900 people died at an American settlement in the jungle of Guyana called Jonestown. In this first of two episodes, we are going to find out how they ended up in South America.Who was the eponymous Reverend Jim Jones, notorious leader of the cult? What did the Peoples Temple believe in? How and why did they make the journey from Indiana to California to Guyana?Don is joined by author and scholar Annie Dawid, who has spent over two decades researching Peoples Temple.Produced by Sophie Gee. Edited by Tim Arstall. Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.American History Hit is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Please proceed at your own discretion. The Port Kaituma airstrip is cut into the remote jungle of Guyana. Created for military use, it has no control tower or shelter to speak of, and the small propeller planes that can land here are all privately chartered. It's an 11-kilometer journey from the nearest settlement, an encampment of mostly Americans known as Jonestown, from which a battered dirt-encrusted truck now arrives lurching along the road. The truck carries a U.S. congressional delegation to Jonestown from the states accompanied by a handful of detectors from the

settlement. The group disembarks pacing and stretching on the airstrip as they wait nervously for transport planes to come for that. Journalists in the group interview the leader of the delegation, U.S. Congressman Leo Ryan, and at 5.10 p.m., a pair of propeller planes have finally landed, ready to carry the group out. Luggage is loaded. After the past 24 hours on high alert, it's an exertion. After a time the passengers begin to board, with the congressman remaining behind on the tarmac to oversee the process. Dense, tall jungle looms over the airstrip on either side. The party is eager to be away, but for the moment everything seems calm, until suddenly, a track.

pulling behind it a flatbed trailer rolls in from the road. Those on the flatbed open fire on the delegation and press. At the same time, a supposed defector from Jonestown fires a gun point blank at his fellow passengers on board one of the planes. Chaos rains in the Guyanese jungle. Hello there, welcome to American History Hit. I'm Don Wildman. On the 18th of November of 1978, over 900, mostly American souls were lost in a settlement, called Jonestown in the jungle of Guyana, South America. A day that began with a congressional

delegation ended in murder and suicide. So how did a religious group formed in Indiana find themselves here? And who was Jim Jones, the notorious founder of the People's Temple, and what was life like within the People's Temple in America and then in Jonestown? In this first of two episodes with author and scholar Dr. Annie Doward, we're going to explore the People's Temple and find out how this church is now become known as a cult. Hello, Annie. Nice to meet you. Hello, nice to meet you. This is a story that revolves around one man, but involves a lot of people.

So let's first understand the man. Jim Jones, where did he come from, and how did he find religion? Okay. Jim Jones was born to a kind of poor white family in Indiana and grew up as a kind of outcast in a small town. an only child. His father was a World War I veteran who had been damaged by mustard gas and didn't work and drank too much. His mother, unusually for the times, worked and she was a union woman. And while I find that very admirable, it was a point of ridicule for classmates of Jim Jones. So he was kind of a weirdo. His father was not.

looking after him. So he was on his own most of the time. His family was not religious, but in his loneliness, he ended up catching the attention of a neighbor woman who started taking him to her church, which was Pentecostal. So that was the beginning of his life, kind of finding a home in churches. He did this growing up, and at a certain point, he ended up still a teenager, working as a hospital aid at a hospital in Richmond, Indiana, which was a very segregated city. So we're talking the 1940s here. And as a kind of outcast himself, I think, he felt a kind of resonance with African-American citizens who were constantly kicked to the curb. And he saw that in the hospital as well.

So there he met the nurse Marcellan Baldwin, who was a minister's daughter. I think they were both very inexperienced in the ways of love and romance, and they got married very quickly. Marcelain was very altruistic, and Jim Jones was very altruistic. And so he was going to school and also deciding that a minister was what he needed to be. And she, as a minister's daughter, was completely supportive of that. And they started their first churches in the 1950s in Indiana. And there was more than one, which is why I say churches. And they changed names as well.

There was community unity church. And there was wings of deliverance. And eventually there was people's temple. There's a lot about Jim Jones and this early phase, which is very not. noble. I mean, the man is a very, he's a strong advocate for racial equality. These churches are out to do good in Indiana. So it was, he wanted to create what was called a rainbow family, right? Yes, exactly. They start adopting across racial lines, which also was not done in the 50s. So they were the first white family to adopt an African American child. And he was given the name Jim Jones,

junior, which is interesting. They had one natural child, Stephen, and there were five or six adopted ones. So they were doing all these good works in Indiana, and she's still working as a full-time nurse. She was integral to the functioning of this church, both financial and otherwise. He was kind of the bad father that people looked up to for approval, and she was more the accepting mother, and eventually they went by those terms, father and mother. This will be a theme for their churches all along. Yes, exactly. And of course, it's not unusual for a religious man to be called father, as is done in the Catholic Church and other churches as well. But she also becomes Mother Marcellin. And in some ways, in my research, I felt like

she has developed this kind of saintly image, which is in a certain way just as dehumanizing as Jim Jones's monster image. You know, I've been trying to deconstruct those stereotypes with my work. It's important that it all happens in the context of the 50s into the 60s. I mean, the time period is really important to this. The church is kind of a blend of evangelical Christianity, as I understand with sort of a new age spirituality mixed with this radical social justice, which is a potent mixture for any kind of church. Yeah, I actually wouldn't call it new age

because now as we start moving into the 70s, the political aspect is what rises to the surface. And what ends up... So he starts out with like poor working class blacks and whites. In the early 60s, he decides he's going to move. them to California, northern California. And the reason for that is twofold. One is he feels Indiana's inhospitable to their mixed congregation. But the other is that like many people in the early 60s, there's a great fear of a nuclear bomb. And Esquire magazine runs this

piece saying, these are the 10 best places in the world where you'll be safest if the bomb drops. So he chooses the Redwood Valley near Ukiah, California, Northern California, which is at the time pretty white itself and very rural. And so he says, okay, who's coming with me? And I think the numbers are about 100 people follow him, 40 families roughly. And they go in a caravan. out to Northern California. And it's there that the church starts expanding. So that was 65.

And so if you think about the context of what's going on in America, we have the rise of the anti-war movement. We have a lot of white college kids who want to change the world. So initially it's kind of that second. that starts growing in the church. And a lot of his black followers grow up in the black church. And so he can really speak to them with his style of preaching. But to the college educated, that style of preaching is not anything they're used to.

So he's developing, and I'm not saying it was insincere, he's developing the political, part of the church, which is so egalitarian that he calls himself a socialist. And he says, that's what the world should be. It should be socialist. Goods should be distributed equally. And so many young people, including a bunch of white collar types, like lawyers and teachers, are attracted to the church for that reason, not for the Pentecostal preaching. Right. But he still does the healing thing, right? He would call people out of the audience and heal their ailments. Yeah. So the healings he discovers bring a lot of people.

Like he's a showman. He's a great showman. They end up going on these national tours where they have this fleet of Greyhound buses eventually that take all of them all over the country and they do these services. And the healings are, I suppose, an evangelistic kind of standby. if you're the right kind of preacher. So yeah, he heals people supposedly. He brings people back from the dead, supposedly.

And I guess he's very, very convincing. You know, I mean, as a natural-born skeptic, I never would have believed it. But he manages to make it believable. And of course, he has this little inner core of workers who make these possible and do all kinds of nefarious things to make the healings look real. You know, like I would suppose it's more like a magic show.

Let's review for a moment. So this church that starts in the mid-50s out in Indiana, Midwest values, all that rest, becomes a whole different kind of operation based on the rise of his, this personality, who's really becoming the centerpiece of this whole thing, preacher Jim Jones. The moves from one place to the next are done for reasons that have a lot of to do with his feelings, I think, right? I mean, he becomes very paranoid about the nuclear

threat and therefore they moved to California. But moving to San Francisco is also kind of hand in hand, I assume, with his interest in the values that are expressed in that part of the country at that time. Is that a pretty good sketch of why and how they end up over a 15, 20-year movement to ending up in the Bay Area? Yes. I mean, so they get it, they have their headquarters in San Francisco and they also have a church in Los Angeles and they go back and forth a lot. he's really built a movement. I guess I'm, I don't know about that language. I don't know if I'd use that language. I mean, he on one, I mean, Jones is really shrewd guy. And he understands that his style of preaching is very attractive to African Americans and that he can get lots more human

beings where there are black neighborhoods. And, you know, UKIA doesn't have any. And San Francisco has plenty. And Los Angeles has plenty. So that's another reason for the move. out of Ukiah. And in San Francisco, kind of in exchange for offering the support of the people's temple to the candidate Mayor Mosconi, who wins and Harvey Mill gets his spot

on the board of supervisors, Jones is rewarded with a political position of being head of the Housing Board in San Francisco. Housing is a super important part. part of the political landscape. Is it fair to say that the message of his Christian teachings have drifted from traditional Christianity towards more of a political message, towards socialism, even communism, right? Yes.

I mean, he called himself a socialist, and I guess the technical term is apostolic socialism that he was preaching. So he got to keep the God part for the God fearing, but he started moving away from that. And you probably, if you've read some of the anecdotes from that time, you probably remember that he at one point holds up this Bible to his huge congregation and says, there's no sky god who cares about you. And he throws the Bible on the ground and stamps on it. And he says, if there's a sky god, let him come get me for doing this. And that's pretty scandalous for especially the old people. And I haven't quite mentioned that. They're pretty mutually exclusive realms, religion and Marxism. There's a quote, those who remain drugged with the opiate of religion had to be brought to enlightenment, which is socialism.

I mean, that's the shift that has happened for him here in the late 60s into the 70s, right? Yeah. And so he manages that. You say they're mutually exclusive, but he brings them together in the people's temple and makes it work for a little while. So along with this, he's creating the sort of communal living. But that's a limited, they can't really do this in the San Francisco area well. We're going to build up basically to why do they leave the country and create this home for themselves down in South America. But I'm curious why it failed for them in San Francisco.

Well, the communal living did not fail in San Francisco. That's not why they left. They have, you know, multiple, like you can call them urban communes. And part of that is how Temple accumulates wealth. They get their members. And this is also apparently a very common thing in a lot of evangelical churches. People give up all of their worldly goods and they give all the prophets or in Jones's case, like the titles to their places of habitation.

They give that over to the church. And so then they have communal living, part of the ethos of the church and they eat very frugally. And so people's temples gathering wealth as an organization, but the people are living, you know, like poor people and sharing, you know, living facilities and sharing meals. And they get an allowance of like a few bucks a week to live on, you know, to buy extras. Then when they run the collections at church services, like they're supposed to give some of that back to the church, too, they're a few bucks a week. This is pretty typical stuff. What's atypical is Jim Jones. I mean, he creates himself really as a messianic figure,

isn't he? Yes. He offers himself, the mesionic thing is not unusual. The throwing in the political Messiah with the religious Messiah, that's unusual. So yeah, he's Jesus. He's booed. He's booed. Buddha. He's Marx. No, Lenin. He preferred Lenin to Marx. So the whole political dimension added to the religious dimension is what makes him unusual, I would say. But the Mesianic thing is the cult leader sine qua non, or however you say that term. You know, only I can fix it. And that's, you know, all the co-leaders say that. So in San Francisco, they're kind of thriving. And by this time, this is important not to leave out. He starts taking speed because he wants to do more things, you know, and sleeping gets in the way of doing more things. So you could say his drug addiction

starts kind of, again, in the service of an altruistic ad. What's with the dark glasses? I mean, they certainly see his behavior. And he starts wearing the glasses, right, to cover his red eyes. I see. But he says, the light in my eyes is so intense. I have to protect you from it. And that's why I wear these glasses. He also speaks obsessively about sex, gives six-hour lectures and the like.

So in Yucaya, he starts sleeping around. And the story is that Marcellin has a bad back and she can't engage in the wifely duties of sex. And he says all this to his congregation. So he's not hiding his infidelity. So there he gets together with one of his married disciples and they end up having a child, but they disguise the child's paternity. She goes away for her pregnancy and divorces her husband. is married, you know, in quotes, to another husband in the church, and then comes back with this child, this boy. Depending on where you are in the church hierarchy, you know that and you know that this is Jim's child, or you just believe the story and one of his inner circle white women

has a child with her husband and he has the husband's name. The boy does. So things seem to be going pretty swimmingly for them in the San Francisco area. What happens that they begin to think about going elsewhere? Okay. So there are early defectors. So in 73, the group of eight, which is how they come to be called, is a group of four men and four women, four white and four black, who have gone to college set by the people's temple. I mean, finance. Their education is being financed. And so guess what? College education starts affording them some critical thinking. And these eight people decide they don't like where this is going.

They don't like the hero worship of Jones to the exclusion of everything else. And they write this long letter and they leave. Now, there were a lot of family networks in the church. And so some of them leave family in the church. You know, so they're family defective. and Jones is like all cult leaders. He's very, very hurt when people turn on him. He does not like to be rejected.

I also want to add that they have all this time, they have lots of good works. Besides soup kitchens, they have a drug rehabilitation program. And that has also drawn in a bunch of people off the streets. And ironically, they're very effective with their drug rehabilitation program. But there are things I would call greatly abusive practices that have started developing by this time. And again, this is not uncommon in cults where you have kind of forced confessions in public of things you did wrong. You know, I shouldn't have taken that expensive food out of the refrigerator.

I was lusting after so and so. And so they start having these collective public punishments. It's called being called on the floor. And so you, Jim Jones is sitting up on the stage with some other people and you get called up. And then you have to confess to whatever you did. And this is also growing a big community of informers, which is another classic kind of cult behavior. And they start doing physical punishment in that. that way. So some of it's like you get a whack, you know, sort of like corporal punishment in school

in the old days, you get a whack on your butt, but it escalates. And they have this piece of wood that's called the Board of Education. And you start getting whacked as much as 20, 30, 50, 70 times, if you're really bad. And so some of those people at that time, people who had been really high up in the administration, like this one couple, their daughter gets really beaten in one of those episodes. And they decide, can't do this anymore. And they are really some high level people. So they leave as well. There's also news coverage that starts to happen, right? I mean, people start snooping around about this. At this time, there's been some newspaper coverage, you know, by newspaper reporters who are skeptical of all the great works of the great Jim Jones and the mayor praising him and his presence on the housing board.

Like he'd bring crowds of people, his worshippers, to the housing board meetings. And that's kind of unusual for a housing board. So that attracts attention. I should also add this interesting aside, which is that for a certain time, they are supportive of reporters and First Amendment issues. And so they kind of go pick it in various, you know, they're also supportive of the Black Panthers. And Angela Davis is a supporter of the People's Temple. And they'll go and demonstrate for progressive causes, which at one time included reporters. But that love of reporters ends up dying pretty quickly. So what happens is,

In 77, after this one reporter, or it's a team of reporters, they've been trying to get people to go on the record criticizing Jones. And up until then, people won't go on the record because they're afraid that Jones and his henchmen will come after them because he's threatened that. You can't speak against the temple or something bad will happen to you. And so in 77, so now that's four years after the gang of eight, the first big defectors. And so some of those people and then some of these new people like this couple whose child was badly beaten, they say, all right, we're going to go on the record now. Jim Jones is, you know, he has his hands in everything politically and otherwise. And he knows about this article. And so we're talking now.

we're getting into the summer of 1977. And so if you just look back in time a little bit, summer 77, the end of the People's Temple is November 78. Jones is very paranoid. He doesn't want this article to be published because he feels like that's going to be the end of him. And he is paranoid. I mean, there's the kind of paranoia,

which is drug-induced and not real. And then there's also the real paranoia, which is people are investing, the church and they don't like what they see. In 74, the People's Temple bought this land in Guyana, Guyana, the former British Guyana, which is newly independent. And, you know, they want, like, foreign investment to help them their poor country. So Jones buys this land, or leases, actually, this land in the northwest part of the state

near the Venezuelan border. and that border is contested between Guyana and Venezuela. So Guyana wants people to inhabit that part of the country, which is very, very sparsely populated. So they start what's called the Jonestown Agricultural Project in 74. And eventually there's like 100 workers there. They call them the Jonestown pioneers who go, they clear the jungle, they build this community,

I mean, it's pure jungle. It's a 24-hour boat ride from the capital of Georgetown. It's really isolated. And these builders are incredible. And they work, you know, 18-hour days building this community from scratch. And so this utopian impulse, that's very American. You know, it was also the beginning of white America, right? of whites leaving England and Holland because of religious persecution.

So I really find a lot of the American utopian impulse in people's temples. So they're building that. Minus the capitalism. Yeah, true. So 74 is the start of it. Now we're 77. It's the summer. This article is starting to, you know, Jones's understanding he can't stop it from being

published. So he says, I got to get out of here because he'll be prosecuted for something. He doesn't want to deal with that. And so the mass immigration to Guyana starts in the summer of 77. The article comes out in August. So he's already gone when the article is published in the Bay Area. So he skipped out of town. Why Guyana?

Guyana is chosen for more than one reason. One is it's a socialist country under President Forbes Burnham, who's a Marxist himself. So that looks really good. On paper, you know, they end up being, you know, corrupt like every other particular government, who ends up running the show in a lot of these post-colonial governments. There's a large black population in Guyana, former. slaves and mixing with Indians who had been brought over as indentured servants, which is actually kind of the larger population number-wise.

And there's also Native American people there, the Amer Indians. So that's the one big reason and the other big reason is that they speak English. Former British colony, yes. So that's why they picked Guyana. So for a period of time and years we're talking about, these pioneers build this camp, encampment with, I guess, barracks and pavilion and latrines and all the rest of the things that are going to be needed. They're aware of the fact that everyone's going to come down here eventually, right? This is the idea. Eventually, yes, but they are not expecting 900 people

to show up all at once, which is more or less what happens in the summer of 77. The idea is that they farm there and that this is going to be a self-sustained community. But one of the aspects of this land that's interesting is it's so unfurtile. I mean, it's a bad piece of land, as I understand it, by the descriptions, with no water nearby and pretty unfurtile. Well, they have water. Water doesn't end up being a problem, but it's not right for growing just about anything. Like there's a cassava will grow there. They have all these huge plans to, yes, to be self-supporting, and that never, ever happens. And then a lot of their, experiments fail. The weather is very intense in the equatorial jungle and there's constant rains and flooding.

And so, yeah, it's not a good place to try and be self-sufficient. And of course, they're not farmers, so they're learning everything. So it's a tough cell, but they're determined to make it work. So there's a lot of overcrowding when all those people arrive. And then by the time the article comes out, you know, there's hardly anyone left to interview in San Francisco because they're in Guyana. There are a skeleton staff at the temple because their job is to keep shipping everything to Guyana to make it function. So that's a huge responsibility and very, very, important. So when we talk about survivors from Jonestown, some of those survivors of Jones Town are the people who never went to Johnstown because they stayed in San Francisco

and they were doing the work. And one of my characters in my book is one of those people. And she is heartbroken. I mean, she's heartbroken when everybody dies, but she's also heartbroken, she never got to go there. And that was a kind of common feeling amongst survivors. They lost their entire community at once, and they wish that they had been part of it, even though it was so awful, the end of it, it was still their family. Interesting. So day-to-day life there is a matter of farming, as you say, but probably building, as we know. But how many people are living there when they finally all arrive. So he keeps saying there's 1,200 people. Everybody, that's, I keep running into that number, 1200. But on the day of the massacre, 918 people die. So there were not 1,200 people in

Jonestown on that day. Now, another group of survivors were in Georgetown, which is the capital of Guyana, and people were constantly going to Georgetown to do things like go to the dentist. Like there were a bunch of people at the dentist that day. There was a basketball team who was playing the Guyanese team. They were in Georgetown that day. They had a Georgetown headquarters for dealing with the government. So there were people who were there all the time and dealing with customs and all the shipments because everything that got shipped would be shipped to the airport in Georgetown.

So there's another large contingent of survivors there. So I don't know if you added all that up if you get to 1,200. But even in thousands, a lot of people to manage. And this is done through committees and through a town structure of some kind that he's obviously the head of. Quite a bureaucracy in running the people's temple. Lots of committees. And as I have said already, was mostly white women who were doing the running of everything. And part of Jim Jones's genius

was that he understood that women had all this energy and wanted to work. And this is just kind of the early women's movement where a lot of women are very frustrated that they can't put their smarts and their energy into play. And he sees that as a great opportunity. and nails it. So you've got this, the structure has been described as like a wheel with lots of spokes and Jones is at the hub. And so everybody's reporting to him.

He has like an individual relationship with everyone. Yeah, they have committees. I mean, they're very, you know, in some ways when you look at these documents, they're like very Soviet. They have lots of reports from committees about, and they have an agriculture committee, and they have what they call the piggery where they're raising pigs to eat. And then they also start a little kind of like

they make handcrafts, the old people especially, and then they sell them in Georgetown. That's another source of income. Discipline was a priority, just as it was at the temple in San Francisco, and punishment becomes more severe, right? Blindfolding and solitary convict. and so forth. Yeah, it becomes more severe. But, you know, the major difference, and it's enormous between what happens in the states and what happens in Guyana is that when you're in the states, you could walk out on the street in Yucaya, you could go put your thumb out on Highway 101 and be gone.

And you could not leave the jungle. There was no easy way to leave the jungle. jungle. And so if people tried to escape, and there were some, then they were very severely punished. And so there was more physical punishment. There was a kind of a sense deprivation area. And they called it the box where you could be sent for a short time or a long time. And eventually they start drugging people. So it's a kind of chemical punishment. They have the largest store of, is it depicote? Not depicote.

I get the names of these drugs confused. You know, one of those zombifying kind of drugs that takes away your will, they start using that towards the end as well. So that people who were resistant would stop being so resistant. So that is, you know, to me, that's pretty evil. And they would be forbidden for leaving, yeah, as you say, because of the remoteness of the jungle, but also because they were literally punished if they were done, if that happened to do so. Now, was news of this through the San Francisco office, was this getting back to the media in San Francisco?

How was it that people began to be suspicious enough to have to come check it out? So there's a group that forms called the concerned relatives back in San Francisco. And the concerned relatives are people who still have family in Jonestown or people who have left the church. Well, like that couple I mentioned whose daughter was beaten, they have other family who didn't leave with them. And so there's still people from their family who are in the temple. And what happens when they're in Guyana is there's very little unmonitored communication. So letters can go back and forth, but they are checked by the leaders. And so people, you can tell when the letter you get from your son isn't really his voice.

You know, it's been doctored. And so there's the communication that's come, you know, and all they're saying is, oh, everything is fantastic here. Everything is wonderful. And so that's part of the suspicion. There's no phone calls. You can't call. Of course, it's pre-internet.

They only have a ham radio out there. And that is very, very limited. It's not like you can go get on the ham radio to talk to your family. It's only for official business. Well, that's interesting. I mean, that's the. only means of hearing about things back home was through this ham radio connection, which was very useful to Jim Jones, I suspect. But you say the New West article comes out, and I suppose other kinds of

news coverage was happening in that area. Once they're gone, though, haven't they sort of dropped off the map? Or are they still sort of a topic of concern in the Bay Area at least? No, because finally, the abuses are in the headline. So then the newspapers, the Chronicle and the Examiner, the two daily papers in San Francisco, you know, they start running articles. And then the government gets involved and they start investigating. And like that couple, they had had all this real estate. That was what they did for a living. They managed properties. And they had signed over, I don't know, 20 properties to the people's temple. And they want to get them back. and another really key issue is that Jones has a child with another woman and that child is also in Jonestown

and the parents, the mother, and then her husband who has had been like a really big big wig. He's that lawyer who had been with the temple for a long time is supposedly the father. They never did blood tests, so it's not clear. But anyway, they want their kid back. And so they're going to the courts and they want to make a custody case. So that's how word gets back to Congressman Leo Ryan, who his constituents are involved in this in one way or the other. He has to be responsible. And it is that concern which drives him to get on a plane with his group and go down to Guyana and go see this place.

for himself. And that's the tipping point of this whole story, the beginning of the end, really. I want to read a quote by a journalist in the area in the Bay Area named Tim Reiterman. The people's temple was, as many communes, cults, churches, and social movements are, an alternative to the established social order, a nation unto itself. The temple I knew, he's speaking for himself, was not populated by massacists and halfwits, so it followed that the members who gave years of labor, life savings, homes, children, and in some cases, their own lives, had been getting something in return. So this is important to realize these people, you know, are not going into this blind or, you know, drug addled or anything. They had, there was an

exchange going on here, but it was with a man who was really tipping off the edge. And that was what was the unseen factor in all of this. And that's the cult aspect of this. But I mean, many of us, including myself, stood dumbfounded, wondering how did these people go to such the ends of the earth to follow this person into the middle of the jungle, only to do what we will now tell them what happened. It seems so incredible to be beyond belief, you know, and yet there was this other aspect of it, goodness that was being supplied. So November 17th, 1978, Congressman Leo Ryan comes with his group and has audience with Jim Jones. And it goes very well. I mean, he has what is a very kind of normal visit to this rather abnormal circumstance,

but he nonetheless makes a speech to massive applause that there are, and I'm quoting him, people here who say this is the best place they have been their whole life. He's going to take this story back to the United States that things look pretty good in Jonestown. Somehow, that moment turns the corner into something very dark and nefarious. So let's explain how he ends up finding out that things are not as they seem. Okay. So he ends up there with an entourage, including media, including government, which is the American embassy people, who have been theoretically keeping an eye on Jonestown for a couple of years now, where they'll go out from time to time to make sure things are okay.

And of course, they let Jonestown know ahead of time. So, you know, the visits are announced, which is an important factor. So there's some of them that are there. And then there's the two lawyers who are sort of competing lawyers, both working for Jim Jones. They're on the plane, too. And then they end up with four of the concerned relatives. And because of the size of the plane, those numbers are limited.

And many more people have come down to Guyana, but they can't get on the plane. They want to go see their family. But they end up staying back in Georgetown. So there's only four of the concern relatives on the plane. And Jones doesn't want them to come. But basically, his lawyers say, you really should let them come, because if you don't, it'll be worse. There'll be worse media. So on the 17th, you know, like they have this big banquet and entertainment and everybody's been coached to be on their best behavior and say how wonderful it is.

And they do have a good day out there and this amazing performance, which is on video, you can see it, where you would think these people are really happy here. They've always had a band and a choir, which is really terrific. And so, you know, objectively speaking, great singers. And it seems wonderful. And their plan is to spend some more time the next day. And Congressman Ryan has said, you know, if anybody wants to leave, they can come back with me. That doesn't happen. But it turns out, somebody passes a piece of paper to one of the report.

reporters and it says, we want to leave. And there's two names on it. So that happens on Friday the 17th. And the congressman stays over in the compound that night, but all the others go back to Port Kytuma where the airstrip is. And so it seems like everything's gone really well. But then when the reporters come back the next day and the interviewer from NBC is interviewing Jones. He says, I got this piece of paper yesterday. And it says, you know, I want to leave. What do you say to that, Jones? And it's a pretty combative interview. You can also see that on video. And that's the beginning of the end, because now that it's public that there are some people who want to leave, then other people start coming forward and saying, I want to leave two and I want to leave two.

And they're almost all white. There's only one black person who says she wants to leave, which is interesting. And in that group, now there's only approximately 16 people who say they want to leave, which is really a tiny, tiny percentage of a thousand people. But to Jones, you know, like I was saying before, being rejected is, absolutely the worst thing. And he's in terrible physical shape, mental shape. He's a drug addict. And you can also tell when he's talking to the reporter, he's so drugged out. You can see, you can hear it in his voice. And she's slurring, you know. So that for Jones, that's the turning

point is, is the understanding that there are going to be people who are going to go home with the congressman. Before Congressman Ryan, and leaves Jonestown for the airport, one of Jones's followers comes at him with a knife. And I think it was quite staged because Jones's lawyer pulls the guy off of him. And actually, the congressman is not hurt. There's some blood on his shirt, though, from actually the guy with the knife. and I think is instigated with this knife attack. So now the congressman really wants to get out of there,

as his support staff wants him to get out of there too. And so Jones asked him before he gets on the truck, has this changed everything? Like almost the leading question, I want this to have changed everything. Did it work? And Congressman Ryan says, well, it hasn't changed everything,

but it's changed some things. But we really have gone from zero to 60 on this whole idea of, you know, just a few hours earlier. Things were very, very happy. Everything was fine. And now suddenly it's not. It really, it's that kind of roller coaster ride they're on. So the congressman takes this group of defectors as well as his people back to the airport at this point, right, on a truck. unbeknownst to them, a man named Larry Layton, which is one of Jones's most devoted followers, jumps on the truck.

And they are warned that he is a plant. He's been told to shoot the pilot when they are above the rainforest. He's supposed to get on that plane with the congressman, but he's supposed to shoot the – and everybody comes down, including himself. Well, so Layton, yeah, he's a plant to do that. And everyone on the truck is saying, you can't let him come. He's not a defector, but the congressman's like, I can't, I can't tell somebody not to come, you know, and everybody will be searched before they get on the plane, which happens, but he gets his gun in there anyway. And then there has to be two planes because there are so many people, they can't go back on the one plane.

So they've had to call back to Georgetown and get another plane sent. And so all of them are at the airstrip, which is a tiny, pretty tiny air strip. And there's these two planes, one like a 17 passenger and one, a much smaller one. So Jones has learned ahead of time that there's going to be two planes. So Larry Layton won't be able to kill everybody by taking the one plane down. So he sends to the air strip. And this is seven miles of dirt. road, which is always muddy, he sends a group of his security guys who are called the Red

Brigade, and they have rifles and other kinds of guns. And he sends them to the airstrip to take care of the rest of them. Right. They roll out on a tractor with his flatbed behind him. And that's the security team who's on their way to attack these folks. At the airstrip, Leo Ryan does an interview. He talks about a knife attack in Jonestown. The tractor of Jonestown members arrives. They come right into the airport on that flatbed. They get rid off and start shooting.

And they kill five people. They shoot the congressman, which was surprising to me to hear, and four others. So we're going to pause at this moment. I mean, what happens then is incredible. I mean, I remember it's still unbelievable. But I remember seeing it on the news. Oddly, I had a sister who was working in the news business back then, and she was one of those that might have gone down there. So we were especially, our family was very attentive to this story.

So back at Jonestown, the Promised Land, Reverend Jim Jones announces to his nearly 1,000 followers that it is time to undertake the final white night. Commit revolutionary suicide, he calls it. And that is where we will pick up in the next episode to understand what happened at this critical and tragic moment. Thanks, Annie. We'll speak to you next time. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Hello, folks. Thanks for listening to American History Hit.

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