American History Hit - President Lyndon B. Johnson: Triumph to Tragedy

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Born in poverty in Texas Hill Country, President Johnson delivered an unsurpassed series of legislation, including the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act. Yet by 1968 he was so toxically unpopular that he decided against running again.Don's guest today (for the second time in a row!) is Mark Atwood Lawrence.Mark is Professor of History at the University of Texas at Austin and author of ‘The Vietnam War: A Concise International History’, ‘Assuming the Burden: Europe and the American Commitment to War in Vietnam’ and ‘The End of Ambition: The United States and the Third World in the Vietnam Era’.Produced by Freddy Chick. Edited by Aidan Lonergan. Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.American History Hit is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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You could see it etched in the deep crevices of his face. Lyndon Baines Johnson had been a master of congressional politics. He knew every lever of power, pulled every string. He played the game better than anyone had before him, and perhaps, better than anyone since. When he ascended to the presidency, he won election in the greatest landslide in American history. But over the course of his administration,

certainly by its final months, he became a man transformed by the strain, exhausted, isolated. The pressures of Vietnam, civil unrest, and political fracture had taken their toll. Allies drifted away, his eyes hollowed out from sleepless nights. His tie often hung loose and cruel.

crooked as though he was gasping for air. There are photos of him with his head in his hands, or slumped across a table in an empty room, beaten down with nothing left in the tank. At last came his stunning farewell. Speaking to the nation, he delivered the words that would mark his political end. I shall not seek, and I will not accept

the nomination of my party for another term as your president. It is American History Hit, and I'm your host, Don Wilde. Thanks for stopping by. The presidential years of Lyndon Baines Johnson, America's 36th president, 1964 to 1968, were packed cram full of torment and turmoil. All sadly bookended by the shooting deaths of two brothers, John F. Kennedy in 63 and Robert F. Kennedy, a short five years later. Both are stories integral to today's episode as we explore how Johnson's presidency

wove the threads of a nation in domestic crisis with inflamed tensions abroad, all set against the backdrop of the civil rights movement, making real gains in the nation, despite the assassinations of its foremost leaders, including Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. More happily, these were also the years when Muhammad Ali changed his name and his sport, emerging as world champion of more than just boxing. James Brown funked his way across America's musical stage, while Bob Dylan did, took folk music electric, and the Beatles commenced rock and roll's British invasion of the United

States. In an era when the country had reached its pinnacle of power and influence, many of its citizens ached for a freer and more open society, challenging the social moors of previous generations. It was during LBJ's time in the White House that change was going to come, as Sam Cook once sang out before he too met his tragic demise in those same years. This was the LBJ era of America. His would be a presidency that embodied the unexpected trajectory of it all, the successes and the failures, which we'll discuss with Mark Lawrence, professor of history at the University of Texas, Hookham Horns!

From 2020 to 2024, Mark served as the director of the LBJ Presidential Library and Museum. He has authored several books on Vietnam, most recently The End of Ambition, the United States and the Third World in the Vietnam War. And he was a former guest on previous episodes, back when we talked about L.B.J.? Hello, Mark. Welcome back to American History Hit. We're so grateful you've returned. Thanks for having me, Don. It's great to be with you.

Now, all the biographies, presidential and otherwise start with an origin story, of course. In Lyndon Johnson's case, this is particularly important. Where he comes from has everything to do with where he'll end up. Talk me through his upbringing in the hill country of Texas. What kind of world did he witness there? You know, Don, there was nothing about LBJ's early life that suggested he would wind up as president of the United States. He came from one of the most obscure, impoverished parts of the United States, the hill country west of Austin, Texas. His upbringing was one surrounded by

poverty, by real hardship. Now, it's fair to say that his particular family was a little bit more advantage than most of the families around him. He had a little bit more of a vision of the possibilities of getting out of that situation into the wider world. Most importantly, his father was a member of the Texas legislature. So he sort of understood life outside of his hometown. But I think it is the combination of that experience of poverty and hardship on the one hand and his experience of his father's career as a politician that gave LBJ both an awareness of what poverty and hardship felt like, but also an ability to think about how he could act on that, to improve the situation of people who were all around him.

Yeah, his mother also, she's from Waco, quite a refined woman, actually, right? That's right. LBJ's father is only part of the story here. His mother was also unusual for the hill country of Texas at that time. She had an impressive amount of education. She had refined sensibility. she was into theater and literature, and she had high expectations for all of her children, but especially her eldest boy, Lyndon.

As a student, LBJ took a job in Mexican-American school. This was very, very formative for him. He saw a lot of discrimination and poverty where he was. That's right. So he wound up in college at the Southwest Texas State Teachers College, now called Texas State University. And while he was there training to be a teacher, he took some time out, essentially to raise money so he could pay his tuition. And he taught at a school down in Kutula, Texas, down toward the Mexican border, and it was a school for Mexican-American kids. So, you know, LBJ, this white

teacher came in from the outside and wound up in a classroom full of Mexican-American kids whose hardship was redoubled by the fact that they also experienced racial discrimination. So LBJ, of course, would make much of the fact in later years that he had had this formative experience that he had seen what both poverty and racial discrimination looked like through the eyes of these kids for whom he felt great sympathy. He was born in 1908, which by the time the Depression comes around, he's what was entering in, he's in his 20s by that time. Exactly. So he really comes of age in the New Deal era of America. He's elected to the House in 1937, where he serves Texas's 10th district until 1949. Well, that's a lot of elections right there, isn't it?

It's a lot of elections. He had an entire career in the House and then really an entire career in the Senate before the vice presidency and the presidency. He's one of the rare figures in American political history who served in all four roles, House Senate, BP, and president. He is a larger-than-life figure, even before he becomes the Washington figure that he is. And he plays on that. I mean, he is a Texan through and through. Yeah, he was a dominant personality, by all accounts, by the account of everyone, it seems to me, who interacted with him, family, aides, colleagues, members of Congress, members of his administration. He was always the biggest personality in the room, someone with a huge personality who knew how to tell a story, who was very effective in communicating, especially. especially in one-on-one settings or small group settings, not such a great speaker.

And in this respect, quite different, I think many historians have said from JFK or from FDR. But man, behind the scenes, if it was a matter of interpersonal communication with an individual or a small group, there was no one better than Lyndon Johnson. Yeah. I mean, we're going to talk about that in a few moments. But it's truly the theme of his career for sure, his ability to, you know, to push an agenda, to say it lightly. He first runs for Senate, as you say, in 1941, loses, which stings badly. But when the other seat opens in 1948, he runs again, a little thing called World War II in between.

Johnson was in the Naval Reserve, spent most of the war around the Pacific. Boy, it's just amazing when you start looking at his resume, how equipped he was, you know, for federal office of whatever level. I mean, he, in the war, his main job was to inspect these facilities and run around and see how all this was running. He's finally awarded medals for his service and then wins the Senate seat and serves from 49 to 61. This is, this is his game, the Senate. This is the old boys network where he can work and he is very comfortable there. It's true. I mean, he had, as you say, a vast amount of experience in the House, briefly in the military.

He had been an administrator in a New Deal program called the National Youth. administration before he actually won his seat in Congress. So he had seen government through different lenses, but I think you're right that he was most at home in the Senate. That was really the place where he thrived best. And I think you could even argue he was more at home, more comfortable, really at the height of his powers as a senator. And for much of that time, the Senate majority leader, even more so than when he was vice president and president. You know, I want to go back to the fact that he was born in 1908. So he would have seen as a teenager, the roaring 20s.

He would have seen radio. He would have seen the cars. He would have seen the whole promise of America being realized under the Coolidge administration, that whole time period. And even to becoming an adult, and then the whole thing crashes around him, along with the rest of the nation, in the Great Depression. That would have been his sort of formative years. It's amazing.

I'd never really considered that. Yeah. In the Senate, he kind of, patents his, you know, famous Johnson treatment. Explain that demeanor and that technique of his. So, LBJ, by all accounts, was an extraordinarily persuasive person, especially in one-on-one sort of settings. And he was so good at this kind of thing that his toolbox of techniques got a name. It was called the Johnson Treatment. And the Johnson Treatment, I like to think of it as a sort of toolkit because it had a lot of different possibilities within it. LBJ was good at flattering

people, at offering them favors, at telling them what great guys they were. He could also threaten people. He could promise to withhold something from someone if they failed to line up behind whatever his priority was. So whether it was carrots or sticks, flattery, cajolery, he could do it all. And he was just uncanny in his ability. to read the person with whom he was interacting and to understand what it would take to bring whoever it was around to his point of view. There must be many instances where they've really investigated this and nailed it down, but I've never heard it. It's always discussed in kind of general terms, and we've all known persuasive people and door-to-door salesman for that matter

who can really, you know, sell you on something that you didn't know. I guess that's what you chalk it up to, but it seems really distinctive in his case and has a lot in the end, which is why we're covering so much to do with pushing some major packages of legislation through Congress, which only he could do, it seems. Yeah, it's true. I mean, I think LBJ deserves all of the credit, if that's the right word, that he's gotten over the years for being this extraordinarily persuasive person. It is also important to point out that when LBJ was president and signing all of these

major bills, he had a huge majority in Congress as well. So, you know, in a sense, I like to say he was sort of pushing on an open door. And it was hopeful, certainly, that he was such a persuasive person. And some of his successes owed a good deal to his interpersonal skills, but we shouldn't go too far, right? He also had a political landscape that was perfectly crafted for him to be able to get accomplished what he wanted to accomplish. Yeah, very good point. Also applies to FDR, for that matter. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

Another important theme, as opposed to these days for sure, is his bipartisanship. He is able to work both sides of the aisle without any problem. I mean, in so many ways, Johnson is what is apparently lacking today. I mean, that kind of guy who sees no real strong divide between these two sides, but rather, you know, a middle that he's drawing people towards. Yeah. If I could single out one skill that LBJ had more than any other, it was the ability to build coalitions. Yeah. He knew how to pull together a winning majority to accomplish what he wanted to accomplish.

And this is where his persuasive skills really came in handy. But on many occasions, the coalitions that he was pulling together were, exactly, as you say, bipartisan. He knew where the votes were. And sometimes they were on the other side of the aisle. And I think this speaks to the fact that American politics were very, very different in the 1960s compared to where they are now. Both parties were, as I always say, big tents. They included very diverse arrays of individuals with very different political ideologies. So the Democrats, for example, included northern liberals, but also Southern Dixiecrats.

In the Republican Party, you had, you know, the libertarian Barry Goldwater and liberals like, you know, Nelson Rockefeller and Jacob Javitts who were on an issue like civil rights, right there with the Democratic liberals. So the political landscape was really well suited to someone like LBJ who had these abilities to build coalitions because the coalitions were right there for the making. Yeah. I'll be back with more American history after this short break. We can't play down the fact that these positions that he was staking out were controversial and difficult to build those coalitions around. He becomes the majority whip, which is the functionary in Congress who organizes these votes in their constituency. Then in the 50s, he's the Senate Minority Leader. Then he's the Majority Leader in 1954. All of this is building this notable legislation, which would arise out of Johnson's leadership.

I mean, he's there at the beginning of federal oversight of those civil rights decisions, Brown versus Board of Education, for example, 1954. I mean, major things are happening in the 50s and really at the center of it all is Lyndon Johnson, one way or the other. Yeah, it's true. You know, something that's easy to miss because there are so many other legislative high points that come later in his career is the fact that he as Senate Majority Leader played a crucial role in pushing the 1957 civil rights bill, which was the first civil rights bill since reconstruction. Right. I mean, it was a largely toothless piece of legislation, but I think LBJ understood that it was important to get even something that was basically symbolic at that moment because it would open the door to more possibilities further down the road. So he was instrumental in that. And then, of course, when he became president, he would be absolutely pivotal, of course, to the story of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act. Let's talk about his outlook on civil rights, which is not as cut and dry as it seems to the eye of history. Exactly. For most of LBJ's political career, he was staunchly opposed to civil rights.

Before 1957, he had consistently voted against every civil rights bill. And, of course, he had to do this in order to maintain his political viability in a state like Texas. Being a champion of civil rights was definitely not a winner from Texas, or for that matter, from the states, you know, of the former Confederacy. Only from after 1957 do we see a new LBJ come into view. And it's no accident that after 1957, he answered less and less to the voters of Texas and had more and more of a national platform. But I think it's also fair to say that he understood that the political landscape

across the country was changing. And he probably changed his own outlook as well. I think part of the story here is of a more mature, evolving LBJ taking a different attitude toward race than he had at earlier points in his career. So it's partly tactical and partly from a genuine change of heart in his own role. I mean, he's on record using the N-word. He's got all kinds of vagaries going on in his personality. But you can't discount the fact that what he's involved in as we go is Boulder and Boulder legislation in defense of people in these situations. And that's why it's so important to understand his origins, you know, where he comes from. And so all that is sort of tapped into as we go along here. He becomes the vice president, which is such an interesting and strange thing. He leaves positions of great power and influence in the Congress and takes the position that is famously not like that, which is vice president. Why does he do this for Kennedy?

Yeah, exactly as you say, why would he want to leave a position of huge power for, you know, a position that everybody knows, you know, doesn't have a lot of clouds. I think part of the answer is that LBJ understood that this was his only path to the presidency. Someone like him from Texas was certainly not going to be able to win the presidency. I mean, he had vague aspirations of competing for the nomination, but I think he understood that he wasn't going to get there. So being vice president might, you know, if the stars aligned in the right way, you know, catapult him to the presidency. I think part of it too was that he understood once there was a Democrat in the White House,

his role was going to be that much less influential, right? He really thrived when there was a Republican, Dwight Eisenhower, in the White House, and he could be the kind of democratic partner who made things happen in Washington. But once JFK was clearly going to be the big fish in town, the opportunity to really have that kind of power to command that kind of spotlight really started to dwindle for LBJ. How does his moving into the White House, or at least the race for the White House, play in the realignment of the Southern Democrats.

I mean, guys, that really comes later under Nixon for sure, but there's a big shift going on here. Yeah, I mean, LBJ was not unique in Congress in the late 1950s in setting himself apart from the most rabid Dixiecrats. LBJ famously did not sign the so-called Southern Manifesto in which Dixie-Crat members of Congress declared their undying opposition to, the civil rights agenda. So, you know, LBJ kept a little bit of a distance, but these were unusual characters in the South. I mean, most of the congressional delegations from the old states of the Confederacy

really were signing up to things like that and were diehard opponents of the civil rights legislation. So I'd say LBJ was really something of an anomaly across much of the earlier part of his career. I guess I asked that question because we always talk about that kind of happening,

you know, like these guys, Strom Thurman. They all walk out of the convention and all this sort of things happen. But LBJ is right in the middle of all that stuff. He knows all these guys. He's always manipulating all these guys. I always wondered what his role was in the departure of the Southern Democrats from this whole coalition. Yeah. I mean, I think that he maintained friendships with many of these people, you know, with whom he had served in the Senate. Famously, he was very close to Richard Russell, probably the most senior Dixie Cratt, someone who had really staunch views on race on civil rights that were diametrically opposed to what LBJ tried to achieve through the great society. So, you know, LBJ really

stands out, I think, for maintaining some connections to these characters, but really separating himself from them. And of course, some of those folks like Strom Thurman would wind up changing parties. You know, others would sort of fade away as the Republican Party started to become dominant in the South. But as you say, that's more of a story that played out in the late 60s and across the 1970s. I'm tempted to say that he was, you know, this was coming from the heart, but everything's political with Johnson. He's a brilliant tactician in that regard. It's such an interesting question, right? Did LBJ always want to promote racial justice based on his sympathy, his compassion for people who are discriminated,

against and suffered from poverty, or did he change his mind based in part, at least, on a recalculation of political advantage. I mean, this is a really lively debate now, 50 years after LBJ passed from the scene, but it's a fascinating debate. And, you know, I think there's some space for a middle ground there. Both things could be true, and I think that's ultimately where I would land. He, of course, becomes president tragically through the assassination of John of Kennedy, which we've done stories about in the past, and we're not going to go down that rabbit hole, but I do want to ask you about Johnson's experience that day. He was riding with his wife, two cars back from JFK, unharmed, obviously. Tell me about his experience on November 22nd.

Yeah, as you say, they were riding in a car in the motorcade. They hear a gunshot, secret service agents jump on top of them and squash them into the floorboards of their car. And, you know, the car takes off at high speed just to get the vice president out of harm's way. And of course, a few moments later, really, they arrive at the hospital where John F. Kennedy had been taken. And it's in a nondescript hospital room, a few doors away from where the president's dead body lay that LBJ learns that he's now president of the United States. A secret service agent literally addresses him as Mr. President. And that's the first clue that LBJ has, that JFK had died and that he is now the president of the United States.

And of course, LBJ takes quick steps to get himself sworn in and gets back to Washington and begins. Yeah, he's sworn in on board Air Force One. Correct. In that very famous picture with incredibly Jackie Kennedy is standing next to him. Did he insist on her being there or was that her doing? I forget. You know, the story goes that it was his idea. But I don't believe that, you know, I think it's clear that she saw the logic in being

part of that photograph. I think LBJ clearly wanted to have her in the picture to convey the impression of continuity to show that, you know, the Kennedys were comfortable, you know, with the transfer of power. And she must have seen that logic as well. Maybe I'm confusing it with the outfit that she's wearing because I think Lady Burjohnson invites her to change and she says, no, I want them to see what they've done. Exactly. They being whoever. Yeah. And indeed, that's my next question. I mean, it must have been immediate that the conspiracy theory started about any kind of role he might have played. I mean, it happens in Texas. That's his home ground. Obviously, he's, you know, it plays to his advantage if you want to see it that way. How did he answer

those skeptics himself, or did he? You know, I don't think he ever took seriously the suggestions that he was somehow involved. And there's never been a shred of evidence, I think, that responsible historians have unearthed along those lines. But I think he was very concerned that Americans would quickly jumped to the conclusion that the Soviets were behind it or the Cubans were behind it in a way that could embroil, you know, the United States and real foreign policy problems at a moment when he really wanted to keep everyone cool and, you know, prevent anyone from overreacting. Does he seat the Warren Commission? Yes. LBJ took an active role in selecting the members of the Warren Commission and, you know, he put a lot of thought into balancing different political

viewpoints, you know, getting both parties represented, different institutions, you know, people whose views would be broadly accepted across the American public. I repeat, please look back in the archive, and I don't have the numbers to cite right now, but there are episodes about the JFK assassination, which are really fascinating. He is sworn in in November 1963, obviously. A year later, he has to run president on his own. He wins an unprecedented victory, 1964, a gigantic landslide against Barry Goldwater, 61% of the popular vote, highest percentage ever going back to 18.

1824 when widespread elections even began. He was immediately engaged in anti-poverty programs while Goldwater was pushing the opposite agenda, low-tax small government. This is really kind of a, there's many themes that sort of resonate many times, New Deal themes that go on here. One episode of that campaign, which is fascinating because it was the advent of television advertising, really, is the daisy ad that portrays Goldwater as a dangerous extremist. It was gloves off for Lynn Johnson, wasn't it? Yes. I mean, I think LBJ showed that he could be a pretty ruthless campaigner during that campaign.

That said, I think both campaigns agreed, you know, not to politicize civil rights as an issue. You know, LBJ could have certainly gone further with his critiques of Goldwater over Vietnam. That issue, as far as LBJ is concerned, was largely handled through the Gulf of Tonkin episode that worked for him. much to LBJ's advantage. So I think you're right. I mean, LBJ showed himself as a very assertive candidate, but... He certainly had a lot of momentum going into that as well. I mean, the feelings about the assassination alone.

The Johnson presidency, say what you will about the success or failure of the great society programs over the long haul. Boy, the man could get things done. Very few presidents, FDR, of course, comes to mind, have passed more landfews. mark legislation than LBJ. Let me just list a few of the biggest ones. 1964 Civil Rights Act breaks Jim Crow. He does this by outmaneuvering those Southern Democrats that I was listing. How does he do that? Yeah, I mean, this is where LBJ, the coalition builder, really shines. Yeah. The coalition for different bills, like the ones you were just

listing, varied. There were different collections of members of Congress who would come together around civil rights or poverty or education or sort of name your issue. But he was very good. at finding the votes and winning success after success after success. This had, as I mentioned earlier, you know, something to do with his own tactical skills, his persuasive skills, and also the generally very favorable landscape in Congress to support these ambitious extensions of governmental power into the social life of the country. Any presidential campaign, any win of that magnitude, you know, is a mandate, basically. And so not a lot of people are going to stand in the way of that for at least the first,

you know, half of the first term. Followed by Voting Rights Act, 1965, the most significant civil rights law he ever passes. Fair Housing Act, 1968 Civil Rights Act is what that really is. Medicare. And then you just start check the list. I mean, Medicare, Medicaid, Immigration Act, Clean Air Act, Elementary and Secondary Education Act. It's just amazing to think of a time when so much was getting passed by Congress that the public was.

This is my childhood. I mean, this is how I assumed Congress has worked. Yeah, yeah. You know, that issues got raised and people talked about it. The news air articles argued about it a little bit, the op-eds. And then all of a sudden we got big new programs, you know, federal government fixing things. Acts included NPR, PBS, National Endowment of the Humanities, National Endowment for the Arts. everything that is being argued out right now and many of them being, you know, about canceled, is Johnson, right?

Yeah, it's true. I mean, a lot of, you know, LBJ is getting a lot of discussion these days, I think, in part because exactly as you say, a number of the core elements of the great society have been, once again, in the public spotlight on the chopping block, usually, whether it's the Voting Rights Act or Medicare, Medicaid, environmental protections, consumer protections, and, you know, National Endowment for the Humanities, National Endowment for the Arts and so forth. All of these are very controversial once again these days. There must have been a time, a speech, a State of the Union, somewhere where he really explained what great society means. You know, when does he say that?

So he gives a speech. It was a commencement address at the University of Michigan in May of 1964. That's the speech, it seems to me, where he really lays out. the vision. And what I take away from that speech is he's saying to the American people, look, in the aftermath of the Second World War, we have achieved the most prosperous society really in human history. Now it's time to extend the benefits of this enormously successful nation to the pockets of the population that weren't enjoying that level of comfort, that level of prosperity. So he had in mind the poor, minorities who are often, of course,

the poor, the elderly, right? He wanted to sort of use American prosperity to solve the remaining problems that confronted not necessarily a majority of Americans, but those Americans who really weren't in a position to enjoy the enormous fruits of what it meant to be American in that monumentally prosperous and successful period in American history. I'll be back with more American history after this short break. Of course, he's accused of being myopically, you know, dedicated to the New Deal, basically, because that's what he sees as a congressman working out for America. World War II comes along and continues his work in that regard. But then, you know, this is where we get the division that exists so definitely today between, you know, the idea that the federal

government can do anything to fix problems on the domestic side of American life versus those who still believe in this. We're almost guilty of not just sort of updating, almost like the Constitution needs a convention. We needed to update the great society so people understood what it was in their age. Yeah, because we're still stuck on the LBJ aspect of it. Yeah. There was a lot of resistance to it. Yeah, exactly. And that, of course, became increasingly apparent after 1965. So 66, 67, 68 became much more difficult years for LBJ with mounting headwinds connected to Vietnam, but not only connected to Vietnam as people started to push back. with the idea that, you know, government had grown too large, that the government was

overstepping into, you know, into question, economic and social questions that were better left to ordinary people to sort out for themselves. And, of course, there was also in those years the first signs of a kind of racial backlash, a sense that, look, civil rights, which had been pretty popular back in 64, 65, maybe had gone too far. And, you know, it was time to slow things down. So you can see striking evidence, it seems to me, even before LBJ left office, that the political landscape was changing with respect to race. This is always the case with the presidents in this series. You always think they've just gone too far for so much of the population. And then, whoops, you know, their neck is out and it all comes to a crashing end.

It's interesting that way. There's an aspect of Linda Johnson, which I find fascinating. Very emotional, very sensitive man. And at the heart, one wonders, did he need the popularity? Did he need the love of people in an inordinate fashion? Like, was it too much? Did it guide his hand? I think that's right.

If I were going to psychoanalyze LBJ, I would very quickly, I think, argue that this was a man who just craved approval, who craved attention. But more than that, who craved approval, wanted to win every debate, you know, not 5149, but as close to 100 zero as he could make it. Yeah. And had a pretty thin skin. too. So when he came under attack or he saw, you know, that significant blocks of the, of Congress or the public were aligned against him would get very frustrated and even, you know, would suffer from despair and depression at times about the fact that people seem not to be as much in love with him as he wanted them to be. Yeah, right. You wonder if that was really the heart of the matter for his famous ability, the Johnson treatment, did it have to do with, you know, my heart is on the line here. You know, I can only imagine those. conversations. Don't do this to me. You know, kind of thing. You got to vote in my way. It's very persuasive and then it works in the opposite fashion when things turn the other way.

He eventually, of course, becomes famously, toxicly unpopular, which is so ironic, given how much he seemed to crave the love of the people. And of course, this is everything to do at Vietnam, which is, again, another episode you can listen to. That's a whole, another rabbit hole. He gets us into Vietnam. He doubles down on Vietnam several times. The Ted Offensive comes along and it's bad news. It's amazing that he can't pull out of these nose dives that are going on here. And that's the tragic flaw of his presidency, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think that's right.

I think that, you know, he had an opportunity in 1963 when he arrived in office and certainly in 1964 to reconsider the pattern of American escalation in Vietnam. It would have been very difficult and potentially politically risky for him to have changed course. but he did have an opportunity there to choose a different path. Instead, I think he took the relatively easy path of escalating, in part because he believed that it would be possible, of course. How could a country like Vietnam defeat the world's greatest superpower?

So there was a strong feeling of confidence there, I think, that turned out to be very misplaced, but he believed he could have everything. He could have the great society and fight in Vietnam, and this turned out to be a bad miscalculation. Yeah, he does not have that nimble ability that he showed in domestic policy at all for foreign policy. Yeah. And that's, you know, I think that's the big takeaway on the guy. He was really made for domestic policy, especially in the Congress. True. But once given that larger stage, he ends up tripping himself up.

Yeah, I think that's right. As you say, he was really a very creative, tactically agile leader when it came to domestic policy. But in the international realm, he didn't show those same qualities. He was a very conventional thinker, I would say, when it came to the Cold War. He imbibed certain ideas about how the United States had to behave in opposing the Soviet Union back during the 1940s and 1950s. And those guided his decisions and led him into real trouble in Vietnam. Yeah. The things that would have disturbed his man, I can almost bet the Watts riots must have been just tragic for him. Here's a place that he was trying to address, you know, the inner cities of America,

trying to fix problems with these great society programs. And then the people are rising up and burning and looting. I mean, how frustrating must this have been for Johnson? And one of the ironies of the Watts riots, of course, is that they erupt just days after LBJ has signed the Voting Rights Act, you know, in some ways the biggest civil rights triumph of his whole presidency and something he was very, very proud of. Yeah. You know, I think what's going on there is that LBJ saw the voting rights bill as the culmination of lots of effort that would lead to real improvement. But if you were an ordinary

black American living in Watts or Harlem or Detroit, you know, sort of name your American city, you know, this was definitely a step in the right direction. But your daily life was about holding a job, finding a job, dealing with the everyday indignities of being poor in the the inner city of one of these cities dealing with police brutality. And, you know, LBJ's legislation, transformative though it was, didn't really deliver much in terms of day-to-day life. And so it was that rising expectation that I think took hold partly as a result of LBJ's triumphs that led to mounting frustration at the same time. So it was a bit of a paradox and one that LBJ really struggled to understand.

Sure. How unpopular was he? I mean, could he not have won that election, do you think? So people say that he could have, you know, if he'd stayed in the race or if he'd been brought back, you know, at the last minute to be the nominee on the Democratic side. And maybe, maybe. I mean, this was an era in American politics where it mattered a lot to be the party's choice, you know, to be the guy who was the choice of the people behind the scenes and the smoke-filled rooms. This ultimately worked to Hubert Humphrey's advantage, but I think you could imagine a world in which LBJ was the candidate where he, you know, performed okay. Personally, I find it hard to believe that he could have won that election, given the strikes

against him, given the successes of the Nixon campaign in highlighting law and order and starting to capitalize on some of the backlash against the great society. I think it would have been a tall order for LBJ to win. When you and I talked about this before, we also discussed his health, you know, which was not good. Yes. This is a man who will die just a few years later. You know, he dies at the age of 64 in 1973. So he's, and they already had a heart attack, right?

Yeah. Back in 1955, a very serious heart attack. Yeah. And he was increasingly aware after that point. I mean, who wouldn't be that, you know, his health was fragile? Right. Some historians and biographers, and frankly, people who are close to LBJ have claimed over the years that what really drove his decision to withdraw from the race for the Democratic nomination

in 1968 was concerned about his health. In other words, his ability to survive another four years. I think probably that was a significant part of his calculation, but I think also, you know, Vietnam and questions about his political abilities going forward were just as much on his mind. The end of Johnson's single term is the end of the era that begins with the New Deal, really, with FDR. I mean, there's a lot of stations along that ride, of course, but in so many ways, the role of federal government addressing the nation's concerns, especially domestically, but then also the failures of foreign policy and our realization that our limits on our world power and influence begin. And the next era begins with Richard

Nixon's one and a half terms that will, you know, lay the groundwork for much of what we're doing today. Yeah, it's true. I think you're absolutely right that in the late 1960s, maybe early 1970s, there was a profound turning point really in American political and social history. And 1968, if you want a specific year, I think 1968 works better than any other as that year when things changed, when Americans turned against the liberal ideology that had predominated really since the New Deal, right? And to me, that term liberal means more than anything else, this confidence in government to work within existing procedures to deliver ever greater progress and uplift to the American people. In the late 1960s, a lot of that came apart as people began to

doubt whether the government actually did have those capabilities. And many, many Americans concluded that really the liberated individual free from government control would actually be better placed, you know, to deliver prosperity and all the good things going forward. You were with the LBJ library just until a few years ago, or last year, really. Was there a different sentiment that you felt from people when they were coming to see this library? Had the tables turned on LBJ? Yeah. I mean, I think something really fascinating has happened with LBJ's legacy in recent years.

You know, for a long time after his death in 1973, I would even say down to the turn of the century, he was really persona non grata. He was not well thought of. Democratic party leaders really avoided him. He was kind of toxic, kind of poison. I mean, Vietnam was the main reason for that, I think. But in more recent times, people have sort of rediscovered LBJ. And I think there are a number of reasons for that. But at the top of the list, I would suggest, is this new craving these days to have a leader with LBJ's skills to get things done. In this era of gridlock and polarization, we have a kind of craving for a different era, a different set of leaders who, you know, allegedly knew how to get things done, knew how to build coalitions, knew how to build coalitions across the aisle. I think some of this kind of longing for

a new LBJ is a little bit unrealistic because the whole world of party politics has changed so much. But still, I think it's understandable that we want another LBJ. We want someone with this capacity to solve problems and get things done. Doesn't hurt when Doris Perens Goodwin writes a biography and Robert Carroll comes along with a couple volumes. Yeah. Tends to change the calculus on an individual. I mean, you're not wrong.

I would say Cairo's books have been as important a factor as anything in turning LBJ's legacy in a more positive direction. Those books are not always complimentary, but they certainly drew a lot of attention to LBJ and kind of transformed him into this figure that, look, we need to understand. in order to understand the broad currents of American history. Mark Lawrence is a professor of history at the University of Texas, former director of the LBJ Presidential Library and Museum, worked there from 20 to 24,

authored most recently The End of Ambition, The United States and the Third World in the Vietnam War. Should listeners look elsewhere for your work, Mark? Well, sure. I would certainly welcome that. You know, one of the books I'm proudest of is a book called The Vietnam War, a concise international history that provides, I hope a relatively straightforward narrative of the war for people who are looking for a basic account of that painful experience. Yeah. Thank you very much, sir. Nice to see you again. Thank you, Don.

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