American History Hit - President William Howard Taft: The Reluctant Politician?

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

Sandwiched between Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson is our 26th President of the United States, William Howard Taft. Did he have the confidence, belief and vision necessary to become a president? And why was he criticised for spending too much time on the golf course?Don is joined by Adam Burns, Head of Politics at Brighton College and author of 'William Howard Taft and the Philippines: A Blueprint for Empire'.Produced by Sophie Gee. Edited by Max Carrey. Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code AMERICANHISTORYYou can take part in our listener survey here.American History Hit is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Want to explore even more history? Sign up to History Hit, where you will discover history from around the world. From the American Revolution to prehistoric Scotland, there is plenty to discover. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com slash subscribe to bring the past alive. From the towering obelisk that is the Washington Monument here in D.C., we head down the National Mall towards the iconic white dome of the U.S. Capitol.

But instead of stopping to admire this glorious structure defining the skyline, we veer around Capitol Hill and head for another one just behind it, smaller but equally profound. The U.S. Supreme Court building exudes a proper singularity of power and authority, befitting the August body housed within. 16 marble columns make its neoclassical statement of balance and strength. The ascending marble steps are guarded by two statues. A female figure represents the contemplation of justice on the left. To the right, a male figure symbolizes the guardian of law.

The man who championed this building's construction, Chief Justice William Howard Taft, never passed through its monumental doors. His court, which he had led for nine years, was held in the old Senate chamber within the the Capitol. But not far away is another of his governmental offices, one he occupied for only four years, nearly a decade earlier, just down the road at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Great to have you with us. I'm Don Wildman, and you're listening to American History Hit. On today's episode, William Howard Taft, our 27th President of the United States, is our subject and story. Served from 1909 to 1913, he is commonly understood to have been Theodore Roosevelt's

hand-picked successor. And for many in the country, Taft was welcome relief after that previous Dynamo had chosen not to pursue a third term, surprising many. Taft was seen as a reset in the White House and the nation at large. Roosevelt has cut enough hay, so the saying went. Taft is the man to put it in the barn. But in practice, Taft's service to the Roosevelt agenda would prove less than aligned. He cut a prodigious figure, Taft, the heaviest man to ever occupy the White House. But as we'll discuss, he spent his term in the White House with his eyes.

on a bigger objective he'd later attain in life. William Howard Taft is the only American to ever serve as U.S. President and as a Supreme Court Justice, Chief Justice, in fact, and for a rather long time. William Howard Taft's presidency had girth, and we have a man who has taken its measure. Adam Burns is the head of politics at Brighton College in England, a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and the Royal Historical Society. He has written widely on political history of the United States and imperialism, authoring and editing numerous articles and books,

including the recent collection, Sports and the American Presidency, from Theodore Roosevelt to Donald Trump, and his 2020 publication, William Howard Taft and the Philippines, a blueprint for empire. Welcome, Adam Burns. Glad to have you here. Nice to see you, Dawn.

William Howard Taft is a far more interesting president than people realize. I mean, if you study his character carefully, you see a kind of new American identity in many ways, one that wasn't there for the previous decade, certainly the post-Civil War days. Let's start with this. What is the stereotypical image of Taft?

I think as he was viewed at the time and running into his presidency, very much a judge from a judicial background, this idea that he was somebody who could manage things, who could administer things well. He was loyal to Roosevelt, and he was an affable guy. People liked him.

Roosevelt said he envied Taft's ability to walk into a room and be like, He said he felt it took a bit longer for him to be liked. So he felt that Taft was somebody who, and Taft himself, was a lot less confident than, you know, often people thought. So some people see this as a veneer of confidence and affability. Well, this is why I asked that question, because as one begins to think about Taft, you think of his physical figure. He's a huge man. And there's a lot of jokes about that.

he's kind of come down through history as sort of a bit of a butt of his own joke. And so, but it's really surprising, as we will now find out, how sophisticated this man was, how rather brilliant he was, and how he deals with a very weird historical dilemma that we will now discuss. But for now, let's talk about his weight. Yeah, absolutely. And Taft had always struggled with his weight all the way through his life. And so the presidency actually saw him hit the highest on the scales, which was often noted in the press.

So there was very little ever press coverage of Taft, even when he was running for the presidency, that didn't note his weight. When he assumes the presidency, most people feel that, and certainly there's plenty of evidence, that Taft ate more as a sign of probably depression, anxiety relate to the fact he felt very ill-fitted for the job and he didn't enjoy it. And when he leaves the presidency, he actually drops a huge amount of weight in the first year after leaving office. Interesting.

He famously has the bathtub replaced it, the white. House. There's a picture you can't miss. It's four men, four grown men sitting in the bathtub that William Howard Taft had installed for himself. Yeah, there's a few sort of debates about the bathtub story, which is obviously the thing most people is the only thing people know about President Taft is the bathtub story. And there's a sense that it was actually a bathtub that was made for a ship. So Taft was going to be on board a ship for a long time. And they had this bathtub made because it would be big enough and then it becomes a bigger story. Yes, okay.

His relationship with Roosevelt is the dilemma that I'm referring to. It's very common to find these kinds of relationships through history. I mean, one jumps to mind, appropriately or not, which is the Putin and Medev's kind of relationship where you have these people who are handpicked and their path is clear because of their previous guy. It is the tipping point of his life, which had been going an entirely different. direction to this point. It will define his life in so many ways. So there's a sense that Taftor had been appointed to almost every position in his job, and lots of people were aware of that.

Taft himself was very well aware that he'd only been elected once in his life, and that was in 1888 to be re-elected as a superior court judge. So he hadn't faced the public in any big scale, and so he'd been appointed to various jobs, one by McKinley, one by Roosevelt, as Secretary of War, And Taft continually is talking about always wanting to be a Supreme Court justice. We see this in his letters. We see this in his conversations with his family. But Taft gives up two opportunities to be appointed to the Supreme Court whilst Roosevelt's president. So Roosevelt offers him a seat on the Supreme Court twice in the years before Taft becomes president.

And both times he turns it down. And so some people think, although a lot of authors focus on his wife, particularly, having ambition for Taft and for his family having ambitions, particularly a couple of his brothers, Charles and Horace. But broadly speaking, it's difficult to believe Taft didn't secretly have some political ambitions because it was offered to him. And although he did seek his family's advice, his friend's advice, and he did thrive, as a lot of biographers say, on praise and reassurance from others, which wasn't a great set of qualities for the presidency, he never nevertheless allowed himself to get to the stage where people started talking about him as a future successor to Roosevelt.

And Roosevelt, of course, had promised much to his later regret that he would only serve out one term, that 1904 term. I like this story. I'm just to say, Taft appeals to me for some reason. And I think it's because in his later life, he takes control and leads it the way he wants to lead it. And I admire that, especially at this point in my life. So we're going to get to that as we move through. But let's go all the way back. to his beginnings. Where does he come from? He's an Ohio president. Everybody knows Ohio births presidents. Born in 1857. What kind of family is he raised in? What sort of status do they have? So they are known in national politics. Alfonso Taft's father was held a number of sort of high profile positions under previous Republican administrations. So he was Attorney General. He was Secretary of War, the same as his son goes on to become. And there's a

sense that they are very keen that their sons particularly go on to be very high profile, that they go on to be very successful, that they've got great store in the fact that their sons are going to achieve greatness. And it's William who ends up being the one who's going to achieve that in politics. The others go in to have successful careers in law, so they will train in law. One goes on to become a head teacher of a school. The other goes on to marry into a wealthy family, Charles, and he ends up bankrolling a lot of Taft's career, effectively, because it's expensive to live in Washington, and the Tafts weren't a super rich family. So Charles ends up sort of allowing Taft to live the life of a Washington politician, which wasn't something

necessarily the family traditionally had the means to do. He is drawn to the law. He attends Yale University. He becomes a very young judge while still in his 20s. I mean, this speaks to the man's high level of intelligence and his real ambitions, which were legal. Absolutely. So after Yale, he goes back to Cincinnati to do law, he ends up later in his life becoming a professor of law at Yale. So he's very, very much respected. He's a young judge. So he gets appointed to various legal and judicial positions. But he's a very young judge and quite early gets up to the federal courts. So his family are really pleased. His parents are particularly pleased about this early ascendancy. And actually, you know, this is potentially a trajectory they would have been happy with.

And there's a sense, again, among most people who study Taff that his wife and his brothers potentially felt that the judiciary was a dead end, that he needed to try and achieve more than this. Although this was impressive, Taff was capable of more. So they did see Taff as a sort of rising star and a potential political hope. So family pressure has a lot to do with this, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And there's no doubt there. Although I think sometimes it's potentially over-stressed. Like, I think Taft looked to his family and particularly to his wife for advice and support and very much respected their support and advice, but I don't think he would have taken it without a great deal of reflection. He was known for spending a long time making

decisions and reflecting, which isn't, again, a great skill as a president. But he wouldn't have allowed himself, I don't think, to be pushed as much as I think some biographers. You know, to give the impression Taft's really wedged along by him. his family. I hope my older sisters are all listening to this podcast today. He's named Solicitor General at the age of 32. He's now moving into federal government. It's around this time in his life that he encounters the famous, you know, Teddy Roosevelt, who's already on a rocket ship of a career. And in that regard, I want to step back for a moment and just consider this guy who's clearly got his eye on the prize of some sort at the time of the gilded age. I mean, what an extraordinary time

to be building a career with means and to be thinking big in a country that's just exploding in its ego, right? Absolutely. And Tath's well aware of his good fortune. He says, you know, I'm lucky. My plate's always been the right side up when things have been dropping into it. He knows he's not just somebody who's worked out, although everybody does rate him. He also recognizes he's been appointed to a lot of things.

He's been very fortunate. And the time he lives in has been right for him. he's from the right place, as you say, he's in the right political party for the era. You know, the Republicans are very ascendant at this stage. And really, you know, everything's on track for Taft. And he could have had, as I say, we don't want to keep repeating it. But he could have had that career in the Supreme Court pretty quickly. He expects to get in pretty quickly as well.

1901 things swerve for Taft. When he, out of the blue, he sent to the Philippines. Tell me how that works. And we need to give a little background on what the U.S. is doing. in the Philippines at this time. Yeah. In 1898, the United States goes to war with Spain, and it's a very short war, as they often referred to as the Splendid Little War.

I know I'm sure you've had a podcast on this already. And Taft is somebody chosen, much to his surprise, to go out and lead a commission to look at what to do with the Philippines, how to set the Philippines up under civil administration instead of military governance. And so when Tafts invited to the White House, there's somebody. speculation that maybe a Supreme Court justice has decided to retire and potentially this is it. But when Taft turns up, he says, well, it was like a bolt out of the blue. I never expected to be told I was going to be sent off to head a commission to the Philippines

because he didn't know anything about the Philippines. He'd shown relatively little interest in the war itself. Other than the role of Teddy Roosevelt, as you mentioned, he already had become friends with Roosevelt when they were both in Washington earlier in their careers. They'd maintained good contact. And so Taft was surprised, although his family again were a massive impact here saying, this is it, sees it, although it's not the right thing. In your opinion, you know, in your trek to become a Supreme Court justice, there's potential here.

And also you can always become a Supreme Court justice later. And this is a bit of a backup sort of refrain in his life. You can always go on the Supreme Court later. This can't harm your chances. maybe this will offer some other opportunities along the way. And even McKinley suggests that if he accepts this mission to the Philippines, next time a Supreme Court seat comes up, Taft will definitely be high up the list. You're right. We have done an episode on this,

and I invite people to listen to it about the Spanish-American War, but we really haven't looked at the Philippines in depth. And it's such an important phase, a chapter in American history, because it begins a theme in the 20th century of how we enter into these intangent. that, you know, end up basically with Vietnam, you know, supporting freedom fighters, in this case, the Filipinos against the Spanish. This is very similar to what's happened in Cuba. You know, we're supporting people down there that have been doing the same thing with the Spanish. It's really a theme that becomes the motivating force behind a lot of adventures in American foreign policy.

Where does Taft come down on that issue as far as his role in overseeing matters there? Yeah. Well, one of the reasons he was chosen. because he does seem an unlikely pick, was because he was skeptical about the whole idea of the United States annexing overseas territories. He was very much the idea that the US shouldn't really be broadening its borders on distant lands. And this wasn't the way the United States should go. However, he accepted that it was a fait accompli. It happened.

And now the US had a duty to see out its role in the Philippines and the other places. that were annexed like Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. So the Philippines was the most populous of these. Cuba, they'd already guaranteed to give Cuba back. So Cuba was a bit of a special case there, barring Guantanamo Bay. So the Philippines was something which there were very few experts on. Taft was already sort of down as being a skeptic on the idea of the US being in the Philippines at all, and he's a judge. So he seemed like a good person who'd be a fair dealer.

to go in, sort this out. He wasn't necessarily going to become the first civil governor, the first governor general of the Philippines. That comes later. But it gave him a very good chance of this. In fact, Teddy Roosevelt was a bit upset in some ways when he heard Taft had got sent out because he sort of saw the way that it was likely Taft was going to end up being the civil governor. And Teddy Roosevelt quite fancied that job for himself. The idea of very little oversight, lots and lots of power and the ability to sort of really run something. and really sort of stretch his political muscles. And Taft actually saw there was some really sort of exciting stuff to be done there as well.

And he did feel that his judicial experience, his knowledge of the Constitution and things like this, would be helpful in terms of setting up how a new state is going to work, albeit one with limited autonomy. Part of that treaty, I mean, this was the splendid little war only lasted less than a year. So part of that treaty was us compensating for certain things. And we paid upwards of $20 million for the... the rights to have the Philippines. What was the purpose of that investment and how is Taft going to make good on it? The whole annexation of the Philippines was easily the most controversial of the annexations. Places like Puerto Rico made more sense to most Americans. It's just off the coast.

You know, it's within the Monroe Doctrine in the Western Hemisphere. The Philippines was, again, it didn't seem to offer anything fantastic. A big selling point that proponents of annexation usually put forward was that it gave better access to the China market, the much heralded China market that everybody had been talking about. We'd seen a lot of discussion about that during the Boxer Rebellion, this idea that of keeping China open and then getting the US really on the doorstep of China so that they could exploit these huge commercial opportunities. Again, we speak so lightly of the Spanish-American War, there are massive casualties in this war in the Philippines, hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. It is,

serious stuff down there, and it really sets up a whole stance, which is really the point of all this talk, is that Taft's entering into something that has high stakes involved, and he handles it very well, I mean, as far as history's account. They also celebrate him there. He's seen kind of in that MacArthur role, right, as far as Japan after World War II, kind of coming in as a kingly figure, and he takes care of business. Yeah, and interestingly, he takes over from MacArthur's father, Arthur MacArthur. who was the military governor of the Philippines when Taft arrives. And they were really, really bitterly opposed.

MacArthur didn't enjoy having potential civil governor coming over to inspect what was going on, interfere, meddle, give advice that wasn't required. And he didn't feel Taft had any real sensible role to play. This was a war zone, as you pointed out. The fighting absolutely did not stop in the Philippines with the end of the Spanish-American War. the Philippine resistance carried on for years afterwards, and the military played a major role there. The role of Taft was really to start taking control of pacified areas

and turning this around. And Taft realised that he had to cast himself as the polar opposite to MacArthur and the military. He very much set himself up as being somebody who's going to welcome the Filipinos into his administration. He very early was rooting for the idea of getting Filipinos insular government, the government of the Philippines, he was very keen that there was no colour line at social events so that, you know, he would be shaking hands. He and his wife would be shaking hands with all the sort of local Philippine dignitaries, much to the dismay of the military who absolutely, you know, aboard this. But again, it endeared Taft to the Philippine elite particularly,

but also this filtered down. And so Taft did become pretty popular. And largely because he offered something very, very different from what the military had. Sure. It does set up a very interesting dynamic. I mean, it brings to mind Canada to Britain, right? I mean, as far as, you know, yes, we're colonial, but we have our own world here, and we give service to those who have our pub, but we're really running things on our own. Taft is the first agent of that as far as the Philippines are concerned. 100%.

And I'm glad you mentioned Canada, because that very much is Taft's role model. Taft sees this as not a temporary incursion where within, you know, a decade or two, the US will leave and maintain good relations or military bases. Some people would argue if you just wanted a military base, why to annex the whole country in the first place? So that discussion had been had. Taft sees this as a long-term relationship. He calls it his policy of attraction initially.

He wants to get these people in, you know, it becomes termed that, rather. He wants to win the Philippines over to the idea of this relationship, this continuing relationship with the US. So this isn't short-term. And this is eventually he feels the Philippines will decide to remain within a US empire along the lines Canada was to Britain at the time. So Canada at the time had its own government, had its own prime minister. It was effectively a self-governing country, but within the British Empire and didn't

have an independent foreign policy at this stage. So much of foreign policy from America standpoint and any Anglo-Saxon country in these days had to do with racial attitudes. eugenics was even beginning to play a big role in this. We are better than you, basically, biologically. And where did Taft come down on that as far as he viewed foreign people? Yeah, I think not dissimilar to Roosevelt, if you discuss this in your Roosevelt episodes. I think certainly not the extreme at either end of the views on racial inclusion or racial exclusion and segregation within this period.

So Taft, as I said, he very much embraces getting Filipinos in the administration, although if you read his letters, he still thinks that there are almost an exceptional few who've risen to a higher level. This is very much like stuff you would hear from Teddy Roosevelt about certain key individuals among African Americans who'd risen up and could be included in the conversation, people like Bookerty, Washington. But they were the small few. they were the handful who would then lead to this sort of idea of a rise of the people's over a time. So Tafts board into that same idea. Effectively, they could become equals to white people almost, and I say almost, because there was always a sense that most Anglo-Saxonists wanted to maintain this sort of top layer of white supremacy. I say white supremacy within the period.

Taft very much felt that potentially the Philippines could reach this same level and through the same means. taking the talented few who would then strike, strike forward. But I suppose what's interesting about Taft's vision of the Philippines as a future Canada is it's a bit different from what people were talking about in the British and French empires at the time for their non-white governed colonies. Because of course Canada was a white governed colony. Yes, it had self-government. And at the time we start to see Australia and New Zealand other white-run colonies gaining sort of formal autonomy.

But we don't see that for their non-white-run colonies. So the idea Taft was saying this would eventually be a Philippine-run part of a U.S. Empire was, you know, pretty progressive. Yeah, exactly. That's why I say a bit of a revelation and worth understanding better. His attitudes are kind of the engine or representative of the engine of change that's happening in the United States, certainly in those issues that we're discussing racially and so forth. Let's shift the focus to when he becomes president. But I'm glad we spent so much time on that because it was really a surprising chapter of any president's life. I mean, few American presidents have spent so much time.

I'm thinking of Jefferson or, you know, you have to reach way back to find these guys who've spent a large amount of time elsewhere. And Taft is one of those few. And it really does have a lot to do with how he behaves back home. So Roosevelt, of course, as we've mentioned, has been, you get on those coattails. You know, if you're smart about your political career, you see where this is going. How does he become entangled with Roosevelt's presidential years? So obviously he's already out in the Philippines when Roosevelt rises to the presidency. They've already got a good rapport from the years before, as I say, Teddy Roosevelt sort of yearned for this job until, because he saw the vice presidency as what he said, like a gilded cage.

You know, like you can't really do anything as vice president. You can't really make your name. But obviously, McKinley's assassination radically changed all of that. So you ended up with the president who I'm sure wasn't quite what the Republican Party wanted. You know, you might be balancing your ticket, but not. everybody really wants the VP to be president. And Taft has somebody in the White House in Roosevelt who knows him personally and therefore that that connection's there. So when Roosevelt's president, he offers Taft these positions on the Supreme Court to get him back from the Philippines.

So Taft turns these down largely on the premise he says that he feels the first time anyway, that his job in the Philippines is not done. He's committed to it. There's a strong element that comes through all his writings that he definitely seems. sees this as a duty and something that he's found he's good at, and he enjoys the respect and the praise he's getting for the job he's doing in the Philippines, from within the Philippines and from Washington. So he's reluctant to leave the Philippines, and he's tempted back to become Secretary of War because he says he can maintain oversight, because at that point, the Philippines were within the War Department. Sure. I really think that it's important to understand

that Taft and Roosevelt together really are the beginning of American foreign policy. in the 20th century. Fair to say? Yeah, well, absolutely, although, as I say, though they almost always see eye to I and Taft will almost always bow to Roosevelt's better judgment whilst in the subordinate positions earlier in his career, Taft does actually disagree with Roosevelt about the Philippines. He's aware that he knows a lot more about the Philippines than Roosevelt, obviously, and when Roosevelt suggests that potentially a good way of sort of starting to speed up the end of this Philippine occupation would be to promise future independence. Taft steps in and says, no, no, we're not doing that. And it's a very rare sort of occasion. And here's where the difference,

I think, lies in where US foreign policy goes. Taft was advocating a very different sort of foreign policy in terms of empire than Roosevelt. Roosevelt was very much like what the US potentially has done ever since interventions that are time limited with the essence that they would eventually leave, which we see in various places after this. So the Spanish-American wars really the unusual bit, where they keep what they've invaded. After this, you know, you get a couple of places that the US takes control of like the Virgin Islands,

which isn't through military invasion or anything, but very few. Taft was going to try and keep this whole thing and try and create almost an American overseas empire. That's how he saw it. And he sort of felt a secretary of war and then potentially as president, he could actually maintain this vision,

which potentially Roosevelt had decided, judging from public opinion, wasn't really super popular and very expensive. What does the term dollar diplomacy refer to? So dollar diplomacy is what people refer to Taft's presidential foreign policy as. And it fits in with what we're saying. He didn't really think the US should expand. He was talking about keeping what they had, running it and as a sort of dominion-style arrangement like Canada and Britain. but he didn't think they should expand any more. He found that the best way the US could exert their power overseas was through money,

the mighty dollar, which again is very much the shape of much US foreign policy in the 20th century. He felt that potentially this could involve shuffling some troops every now and again, if necessary, but broadly speaking, it could all be done through treaties, free trade agreement, say tries to strike a free trade agreement with Canada, which actually gets through Congress, which was quite impressive. however the Canadians end up rejecting it because they think it's a sort of covert attempt by the US to eventually take control of Canada.

So that all falls through. And a lot of Taff's efforts in foreign policy fall flat, but they're broadly based on the idea of not getting involved in wars, not getting involved in incursions, trying to create agreements. So he tries to commit France and Britain to arbitration treaties that says they'll arbitrate any disputes they have in the future. and again these fail largely due to like opposition in Congress.

So Taft is very much an internationalist who wants to commit the US to a world court to the future what becomes the League of Nations originally called the League to Enforce Peace, sounded a little bit more threatening. And things that Wilson actually had a lot in common with, as I'm sure you'll come on to in your Wilson. Like Wilson and Taft actually were very much on the same page when it came to this idea of foreign policy. They differed on the Philippines because it's Wilson who have, eventually says to the Philippines will promise you independence. But other than that, they actually had a lot in common. And after Taft's gone from the presidency, he's pretty supportive of Wilson's

efforts to join these international organizations. Let's back up a bit and do some stone skipping through a lot of history here. Teddy Roosevelt, of course, took the presidency after the assassination of McKinley, 1901. He's the youngest president ever. He is in power until 1908. He's elected only once to that office. So it's odd that he does not run. for a third term in quotation marks. It would really be his second term. But he doesn't, which is a discussion for another time. He decides not to any handpicks.

That's the words it's always used. William Howard Taft, that seems like a naive word for me. I don't, how do you do that? How does a president decide in this country, in this system, to do that? And people follow that. I don't understand. Yeah, there are a few, there are a few sort of suggestions that earlier in his second term, if you like, or his full first term of his own.

that Roosevelt considers other people. But because he's pledged to only serve this as his second term, because he'd seen out most of McKinley's first term, and actually by the current rules, he would have had to stand down after his second term because he'd served more than half of his predecessors term. But those rules didn't exist at the time. Those are rules to come in the future.

So Teddy Roosevelt could have absolutely run for a third term. And most people agree by the time he gets midway through his second term, that he sort of wishes he'd never said he'd run this as if it was. But it's that grand tradition of standing down after two terms that Roosevelt was suggesting, yeah, that he was suggesting he was going to keep to. Roosevelt's very self-confident that he's doing a fantastic job. And he's pretty popular. And he's keeping a very divided Republican party together.

He probably could have walked a third term if he'd wanted to in 1908. I've very little doubt that would have happened. But even though it would have been controversial to go for a third term, as it was for FDR, the difference here is that Roosevelt was so confident, and as you said earlier, a bit like Putin and Medvedeuvre, as some people see that relationship,

he felt that maybe Taft could continue on, but he could still maybe pull the strings. That Taft wouldn't really interfere too much with what Roosevelt had been doing. And Taft fully commits to doing just that. I'm not going to change stuff. I'm going to keep these things. I probably won't even change your cabinet.

You know, he pretty much sells into a vote for Taft is a vote for Roosevelt. And is that articulated in the newspapers and all the rest? Yeah, yeah. Like obviously the newspapers do a good job of selling Taft as well. The pro-Tafed newspapers do a good job of selling his foreign policy experience because that's where most of it's come from, his judicial experience. You know, this is a guy who most of the press agrees has all the qualifications needed. to be president. They think Tafts are good candidate, and they don't necessarily think Taft's

just a sort of puppet, but they do think a vote for Taft is a vote for four more years of what we've just been having, that we're not going to see a change in direction. And boy, is this epically going to fail? I mean, it completely changes very soon into his presidency, correct? Because he has entirely different idea of what his role really is. And how the country ought to operate. Tariffs have a lot to do with this. Economics have a lot to do with it. How do you account for the fact that he turns around so much? Was he just faking that or did he have a come-to-Jesus moment? Again, biographers sort of differ on this, but I think sometimes people feel Taft's presidency is misrepresented as being a lot different in terms of what it was trying to achieve than

Roosevelt's. You're absolutely spot on in terms of they saw the presidency very differently. Taft's sort of very much imbued in legal, constitutional rules, regulations, efficiency, you know, like doing things by the book, making sure everything works effectively and properly. And Teddy Roosevelt absolutely wasn't that sort of guy. You know, he expands the role in office of the presidency significantly. So some people say, well, why didn't Taft openly criticise Roosevelt more about that beforehand? But let's be realistic. Taft sort of had a bit of a fanboy relationship with Roosevelt.

He did sort of adore Roosevelt in a way that Rosevelt. Roosevelt liked Taft. You know, Taft was like a good guy to go to. Taff would be good for certain information. And Roosevelt warmly endorses Taft as his successor, of course. But he doesn't think Taft is as good as he is. And Taft doesn't think he's as good as Roosevelt. He thinks he's as good as Roosevelt is being a judge, but he doesn't think he's a Roosevelt president.

But he also feels that probably Roosevelt's overstepped the mark a bit. Although he doesn't intend perhaps to change course dramatically, he does find himself wavering about doing lots of things because he's not entirely sure he can do the sorts of things Teddy Roosevelt does because maybe Teddy was overstepping the mark a bit. And is there a specific issue? I mean, let's give away the ending here. Teddy Roosevelt is going to end up running against his own handpicked successor.

And he's going to do it in the clumsiest fashion. He's going to create his own party. He's going to do the Ralph Nader thing and just try to grab as many as he can. And he completely blows it for the entire Republican Party. That's the end of this story. But when is the beginning of that story? Is there an issue that triggers this whole decision? Well, that is a really good question because you could point to any number of reasons.

I would say it's not controversial. I'm sure lots of people would agree that Roosevelt probably had in the back of his mind always that the next term might be the return of Teddy Roosevelt. Now, that's hard to prove. But it's also completely in keeping with his character. And even he was talking, even to Taft in 1908, he's saying stuff like, well, there are people saying to me that maybe I should just run anyway, even though I've said I'm not going to. So Taft's got doubts that Roosevelt fully was out of it. And he always knew it. And people knew that Roosevelt was probably picking from quite early on in his presidency.

This is a guy who Roosevelt said, oh, Taft, yeah, he's going to be the great president, he's the next great thing. And then very, very quickly Roosevelt starts to very gently pick. a nudge and it just gets more and more open as the presidency goes on. You talk about things like the tariff. The tariff is pretty complex and Taft sort of stakes a lot on it and it comes out not really achieving anything massive that lots of people can understand because it's to do with changing rates on thousands of things. And everybody's disappointed with it. People who were protectionists didn't like the fact it was a little bit lower. People who wanted much freer trade and stuff didn't like it because it was still a little bit protective. It was a it was a complete

hopeless thing to stake yourself on. And because Congress were never going to really buy any big lowering of the tariff, because his own party weren't super keen on that, it was never a very sensible thing for Taft to put his neck on the line for. And other people did say that. That's why that's why Roosevelt didn't touch it. It wasn't a sensible thing. If you talked about tariffs late in the 19th century, you know that it's not a very, it's not a very easy thing to try and get done. And it makes a lot of people unhappy. And those are the early days when tariffs were made a of sense. It was like a story. Let's protect our shores and it's very nativist. It's all that sort of thing about, you know, how we can do it better than the rest of the world. And it becomes a very

big theme throughout the 20th century, you know, even to this day. How do you, how do you do this? It doesn't really work in the end for most people. I'm going to skip over a lot of detail about his presidency because he really comes face to face with the problem of running after the, after the midterms, I guess. He's really facing down this, this rumor and then fact of Teddy Roosevelt running against him. That's its own episode. Trust me. There's too much to discuss at this point. But it really is fascinating. The creation of the Bull Moose Party. And this whole thing ends up blowing up, as I say, and getting Woodrow Wilson elected, the Democrat. And then we begin that whole episode of life. But let's look back a little bit on more the personal qualities

of this man. He was a huge sports fan. The biggest baseball fan that MLB ever had, very famous for for throwing out the first pitch of baseball in Washington. I want to reflect on the fact that this man, had he had his chance, probably would have entered us into the 20th century a bit more gently, do you think? Yeah, I say that in terms of when it comes to sport, unlike the sort of rugged, athletic, you know, wrestling, boxing Teddy Roosevelt, who would like, you know, probably be wrestling a bear if he wasn't, you know, filling the Smithsonian with dead animals.

Tafts are very much easier model to follow for 20th century presidents. Taft loves baseball. That's not so difficult for presidents to do. He didn't really like it when they sort of advertised it as Comsy Taft at the baseball in small letters underneath. He didn't like that. He didn't want to be the celebrity drawl. He felt baseball was great. He really enjoyed watching it.

And he liked the idea that he could be president and bring that attention to it. And, you know, Teddy Roosevelt wasn't a big fan of baseball. He's a football. He was out of kilter with his time. Yeah, he was. He's the man who say football. But then at the same time, you've got him being the golfer. Taft is the golfer.

And again, Teddy Roosevelt says to Taft when he's running for the presidency, don't keep playing golf. It's too elite. It's out of touch with the people. People won't like it. But what it actually does is create a golf boom. You know, like people get really into golf because Taft draws so much attention to it. And Taft gets criticized a lot.

Sets another precedent like for Obama and Trump for getting criticized for spending so much time playing golf whilst in office. You know, Taft doesn't enjoy being president. He spends a lot of time playing golf. He spends a lot of time out at other places. He spends more time out of D.C. than most presidents. Yeah. And before we talk about the happy ending of this man's life, because it really does have an amazing turn at the end. I just want to stake this down. That you have in Roosevelt versus Taft the contrast of what kind of presidency we're going to have, you know, as the 20th century unfolds. Teddy Roosevelt sets us off on this very dynamic, very, you know, he grows the power of the presidency so dramatically, whereas Taft is that other

kind of 19th century model of let's pull it back. I'm not, you know, as big a personality as I am in a body, and everybody can just sort of calm down. And we end up going on the Roosevelt fashion, you know, for various reasons, obviously. But you can really see in this episode so much about the presidency. Yeah, absolutely. I think, The issue here is, again, I mention confidence and belief and vision, and I don't think Taft really had the confidence, belief, or vision to be president. I think you do have to have those sort of qualities. The issue with Taft, and one of the reasons he's overlooked so much is, of course,

because he's wedged between these two major presidents of the early 20th century, probably the only two prior to FDR that most people know anything about, Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson. So he's completely overshadowed. And the 1912 election casts him as the conservative in a four-way race. with Eugene Debs, the socialist, Wilson, Roosevelt, as running as his bull moose party, and Taft's seen as this conservative option. But actually, Taft was pretty progressive.

He didn't really radically change from what Roosevelt was offering for. It's just he couldn't sell it. Taft busted more trusts in his single term than Roosevelt did during his two terms. He takes on bigger trusts, and Roosevelt's US steel, he takes on it. That Roosevelt said was a good trust rather than a bad trust. So Taft's like, well, I don't really see this as being a distinction. You know, you believe that big monopolies are bad. You believe they're bad.

So Taft is actually quite progressive in lots of ways. They fall out – one of the other things we haven't mentioned is they fall out – quite a lot people point to this Ballinger-Pinchot controversy, which is where Taft ends up sacking one of Roosevelt's mates, who's the chief Forrester, Gifford Pinchot. And this is a lot to do with Roosevelt's style of the presidency, where, you know, everybody can overstep their mark a bit, people who are really close to Roosevelt get a lot more power. The chief Forrester ended up having quite a lot of power within the Interior Department. Went to appoints a new secretary of the interior. He wants back control of his department. And this steps on Pincho's toes. Pinchot gets wind that Ballinger, the new secretary of interior, had maybe been involved in some

dubious land sale in Alaska. And then it all blows up when the progressive press, I suppose, or what's left of the muck-raking press, gets hold of this and decides to run with it. And Taft gets muddied because he sacks the good guy, the one who was looking out for the environment. It was more again about Taft trying to respect order, roles and boundaries of positions rather than any grand statement about the environment or conservation. But again, he doesn't really shift much on any of these progressive policies Roosevelt's known for, his trust busting, all these sorts of things. Lowering the tariff, his effort to lower.

tariff is progressive, you know, like most progressives wanted a lower tariff. It's just he didn't achieve one that satisfied them. So in some senses, Roosevelt and his followers were always looking for Taft to not succeed and then pointing it out all the time. And that, that's the narrative that ends up prevailing. Tafts failed. Tafts failed. Tafts no Roosevelt. Interesting. He goes from a boy with the supportive brotherhood circle to one who is antagonists around him. no wonder he was so uncomfortable. No wonder he had to eat because he was just dealing with that kind of anxiety. It's fascinating change.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's amazing how his health is a really, really big problem for him during his presidency. He's seen as a workaholic in most of his earlier career. In his presidency, many people start to describe him as being more lethargic. He suffers from sleep apnea. He has really bad health problems. And a lot of it's to do with the fact there's so many pressures.

and he feels like everything is just not going right anymore. You know, most of the things in his life have gone really successfully up till now. And yet, in his own mind, all of this is preparation for what he really wants to do and has wanted to do all the way along, which is to be a member of the Supreme Court, which in 1921 he is appointed to do by Harding. And he becomes not only a member, he is the chief justice of the United States Supreme Court and is there for a good number of years. Is this a happy ending?

I mean, it sounds to me like it is. Yeah, well, some people argue that the two times he turned down the role of Supreme Court Justice when Teddy Roosevelt offered it was because it wasn't the Chief Justice role. Again, it's impossible to prove that's true. But there's another suggestion that when Taft is president, he appoints five people to the Supreme Court, which is, you know, outdoes Trump's court appointments for a single term. And he also elevates somebody to Chief Justice. So you could argue he appointed six of the nine to the positions they were in.

One of the arguments is the position of Chief Justice comes out whilst he's president. And the best person for the role was probably Charles Evans Hughes. Taft saw Hughes as this fantastic mind. He later becomes a presidential candidate. He's on the Supreme Court, you know. So he could have been another Taft, the President Supreme Court Justice star. But Taft doesn't appoint Hughes to the Chief Justice ship when it becomes available. He elevates Edward White instead.

And some people argue he did this because he wanted to make, because Hughes, Hughes was too young and possibly too talented, and potentially white might not last that long, and therefore potentially the role could still come up after his presidency, so he could take the Chief Justice role. So some people would say he doesn't appoint Hughes because he still has this vision that at some point he's going to get the job, and he doesn't want to appoint someone too young to Chief Justice. Right, exactly. There's your next book, Adam.

As the Chief Justice, it's a fascinating story. he leaves the court in 1930 and dies shortly after. His epic run of life is over. It's an amazing ending to this extraordinary career. Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting as well that the presidents he's sandwiched between. They're all roughly the same age, Teddy Roosevelt, Taft and Wilson. They're all born within a year of each other effectively.

And so they are all contemporaries. They go through these huge political careers, all very different in their trajectories. And yet surprisingly Taft is they. the one who lasts the longest. Having all had the sufferings of holding the highest office, Taft somehow, despite his health problems, outlasts both Roosevelt and Wilson. And Taft goes on to be buried in Arlington National Cemetery. I think he's the only one there apart from JFK. And many years after, when his wife dies, she's buried next to him in Arlington National Cemetery. So if you ever find yourself in Arlington and there's a big cue to see the JFK

Memorial, then do take a trip to see Taft and his wife in Arlington. There we are. We've just sent millions of people to Washington, D.C. on a whole new kind of trip. Adam Burns is the head of politics of Brighton College in England, fellow, as I say, of the Royal Society of Arts and the Royal Historical Society. Boy, those are prestigious organizations, I am sure. He writes widely on political history, including the book we've most referred to, which is William Howard Taft and the Philippines, a blueprint for empire. Adam, I hope I see you again on this show. It's been really fascinating. Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me. Hello, folks. Thanks for listening to American History Hit. Each week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of great content, like mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements,

to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode. By hitting like and follow, you help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share with a friend. American History Hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Thanks so much.